Speaker 1: We were not broken men. We were betrayed, overcome by
Speaker 1: cruel odds, but undismayed. Out of the fog of treachery,
Speaker 1: we came in regiments and companies, or one by one.
Speaker 1: We stood half dazed, then look upon the sea, and
Speaker 1: in the glory of the setting sun, amongst those rosy clouds,
Speaker 1: beyond the foam, we dreamed that we could see the
Speaker 1: shores of home. That is Dunkirk nineteen forty by Dorothy
Speaker 1: Emily Stevenson. And that is a somber poem for a
Speaker 1: somber movie, and some might say a somber podcast. Ashley,
Speaker 1: this might be the most unique of all of Christopher
Speaker 1: Nolan's movies, Dunkirk twenty seventeen, not Dunkirk nineteen forty, when
Speaker 1: actually Dunkirk happened, but Dunkirk twenty seventeen. A lot of
Speaker 1: people described this as the most documentarian of Christopher Nolan's films,
Speaker 1: Like the events just sort of happened, they don't. There's
Speaker 1: not a lot of narrative flair here. There's just sort
Speaker 1: of is we are sort of filming events, and we
Speaker 1: are letting you experience them however you like to experience them,
Speaker 1: which we said in some of our previous Nolan Club
Speaker 1: episodes was sort of the weakness of previous episodes when
Speaker 1: Nolan is trying to show you how to feel or
Speaker 1: tell you how to feel instead of show you how
Speaker 1: to feel. Let me ask you, do you think he
Speaker 1: was successful with this movie, Like I mean with that
Speaker 1: tone of just like you know, just sort of doing
Speaker 1: a narrative documentary.
Speaker 2: The irony being that the movie that we saw previous
Speaker 2: to this from him being Interstellar, actually opens with real documentary.
Speaker 1: Footage from Ken Burns and.
Speaker 2: Somehow does impact nearly the impact of Dunkirk. I do
Speaker 2: think that is a key to why this is incredibly effective,
Speaker 2: because we are watching these characters go through these emotions,
Speaker 2: and so for me, at least, my emotional residence with
Speaker 2: with the story is sympathetic to them as opposed to
Speaker 2: because I'm being told that love is the answer, even
Speaker 2: though love is always the answer.
Speaker 1: Of course, yeah, there's no love is the answer in Dunkirk.
Speaker 1: It seems it seems like the only answer of Dunkirk
Speaker 1: is don't get in the damn boat. Yeah, stay out
Speaker 1: of the water. Like I feel bad for I'm not
Speaker 1: gonna remember the main actor's name here, white finn Whiteheads
Speaker 1: whose character's name is Tommy, who I don't even know
Speaker 1: if you hear Tommy the.
Speaker 2: Entire I don't think most of these characters we hear
Speaker 2: their names.
Speaker 1: Yes, except for like Barry Keegan. Yeah, I feel like
Speaker 1: watching him the entire movie is just it could almost
Speaker 1: sort of be a comedy of errors, where like every
Speaker 1: time you think he's going to get away from Dunkirk,
Speaker 1: he fails.
Speaker 2: Can I tell you, I don't even really like this
Speaker 2: main character.
Speaker 1: And of Tommy that we didn't know was named Tommy, yeh, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: I don't know Tommy the player who plays pinball.
Speaker 2: No, he sure pays plays a median pinball. I don't
Speaker 2: even feel any particular gratitude that this character survives the film. Yeah,
Speaker 2: spoilers for a nine year old movie, But I do
Speaker 2: think that that is a strength of the film is
Speaker 2: they don't tell you, They do not editorialize at any point,
Speaker 2: and people behave nobly, and they behave very poorly throughout,
Speaker 2: and at no point are you being told that you
Speaker 2: have to feel good because this person has survived, or
Speaker 2: you have to feel bad because this person hasn't survived.
Speaker 2: And it's really a fifty to fifty. There's even a
Speaker 2: character at the end of the film that, as you
Speaker 2: said when we were watching it, you have to assume
Speaker 2: is a pow if he survives at all, Yes, and
Speaker 2: you know, and that's you know, a harrowing thing to
Speaker 2: be confronted with.
Speaker 1: You know, it's interesting for Dunkirk. For me, it's one
Speaker 1: of these things where I think, like the best war movies,
Speaker 1: it doesn't try to be like war is bad or
Speaker 1: war is great. Yeah, is wrong on both ends, of course.
Speaker 1: It more is just trying to put the POV in
Speaker 1: the people that were there, and just trying to get
Speaker 1: you to experience and think how terrible it would have
Speaker 1: been if you were one of those people there and
Speaker 1: that situation that because you know, it always is that
Speaker 1: the war is hell. Yeah, no matter which way you
Speaker 1: put it, war as hell.
Speaker 2: And it's either that or it's the glory of battle, right, That's.
Speaker 1: What I'm saying. Is war so great that we are
Speaker 1: the good guys and there is there are no good
Speaker 1: guys in war. There are no bad guys in war.
Speaker 1: It's wars hell. Yeah, It's kind of a terrible event
Speaker 1: that should never happen, no matter what we do, but
Speaker 1: it just seems to keep happening. And what also seems
Speaker 1: to keep happening is our podcast We Won't Die.
Speaker 2: Oh.
Speaker 1: Welcome the Geek History Lesson.
Speaker 2: I'm Jason, as we brought out towards six hundred episodes,
Speaker 2: I'm Ashley Victoria Robinson. Welcome to your Mind University because
Speaker 2: you have stumbled onto the podcast where a TV writer
Speaker 2: from Kansas and a comic book writer from Canada deep
Speaker 2: dive into the big questions of pop culture. And welcome
Speaker 2: because you've come to a podcast within a podcast, because
Speaker 2: this is Nolan Club, where we are celebrating and exploring
Speaker 2: the works of Christopher Nolan in order leading up to
Speaker 2: the release this summer of the Odyssey, and we have
Speaker 2: finally come to I would say one of the more
Speaker 2: longer awaited installments in Nolan Club. Done Kirk. So, if anyway,
Speaker 2: if you're listening to Geek History Lesson extra, you know this,
Speaker 2: And if you're not, then I mean, what are you
Speaker 2: doing with your life? Hell?
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly guy? Screw you?
Speaker 2: Uh?
Speaker 1: Hell with you? Is what I said.
Speaker 2: It's over on our Patriots Support podcast.
Speaker 1: That's that's why you're not coming over there. It's fine.
Speaker 1: I understand everybody. Look not everybody isn't a great economic
Speaker 1: status right now, just like World War Two. It's fine,
Speaker 1: but over there. Well with you, we have been doing.
Speaker 2: Jason and I periodically check in and we rank Christopher Nolan's.
Speaker 1: Movies as we're.
Speaker 2: Series, and we bully our guests who come onto the
Speaker 2: extra to do that as well.
Speaker 1: It's been really.
Speaker 2: Fun and I have consistently with Dunkirk in my top three,
Speaker 2: and you have scoff set me multiple times. So for me,
Speaker 2: this is a long awaited revisit because I was interested
Speaker 2: to see if if it would hold up as well
Speaker 2: as I've only seen it once before when we originally
Speaker 2: saw the film, and I think and I was interested
Speaker 2: to see what your opinion is. So for me, this
Speaker 2: has been long awaited in sort of our Lore of
Speaker 2: Nolan club, I'm excited to talk about this today.
Speaker 1: Okay, well, let's top into our real brief tencent origin
Speaker 1: of Dunkirk from twenty seventeen by Christopher Nolan. But before
Speaker 1: we can give that, well, we have to get a
Speaker 1: ten cent origin on Operation Dynamo, which is the Dunkirk
Speaker 1: evacuation from because this is based on a real event,
Speaker 1: so from May twenty six to July fourth in nineteen
Speaker 1: forty in Dunkirk, France, right on the English Channel. More
Speaker 1: than three hundred and thirty eight thousand Allied soldiers were
Speaker 1: evacuated during the Second World War in the north of France.
Speaker 1: Basically large numbers of Belgium, British and French troops were
Speaker 1: cut off and surrounded by German troops during the six
Speaker 1: week Battle of France. Interesting enough, many people considered this
Speaker 1: to be the greatest blunder that Adolf Hitler committed in
Speaker 1: the entirety of World War II, because the Halt order
Speaker 1: on May twenty third was issued by Gerd van Rundstalt,
Speaker 1: who was a commander of Army Group A, and he
Speaker 1: was the one that decided to stop the German armies
Speaker 1: from a completely obliterating the British, French and Belgium troops
Speaker 1: and just basically let the Luftwaffe the Air Force, to
Speaker 1: you know, pick them off like birds. And this allowed
Speaker 1: the British to hastily assemble a fleet of over eight
Speaker 1: hundred vessels and rescue the troops, basically becoming the miracle
Speaker 1: of Again. Historians consider this to be one of Adolf
Speaker 1: Hitler's greatest mistakes. And some people think that if the
Speaker 1: Germans had just marched on through Germany would have actually
Speaker 1: land invaded the land of Britain because they never got there. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: they you know, they blitz creaked him like crazy. But
Speaker 1: people think Germany would have actually landed troops on English
Speaker 1: soil and possibly.
Speaker 2: I mean, the channel is not that big, yeah, and.
Speaker 1: You can almost see it. They say that many times
Speaker 1: during the movie.
Speaker 2: People have swam across it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, So I mean, don't do that. What a
Speaker 1: stupid thing. Don't swaw a crossing the ship. Well, I
Speaker 1: actually think it's one of the brilliant lines in the
Speaker 1: movie that they keep repeating. Like Kenneth Brown, I think
Speaker 1: starts it off where they say, you like you can
Speaker 1: almost see how you almost see home? But so that
Speaker 1: is the real miracle of Dunkirk now. The film of
Speaker 1: Dunkirk directed by Christin Nolan, written by christ Nolan, produced
Speaker 1: by Emma Tom Thomas his wife, starring Fione Whitehead, Tom
Speaker 1: Fin white Head, Fin Whitehead, Tim Glon, Karney, Jack Loud
Speaker 1: and Harry Styles, Anerwin Barnard, James Darcy, Barry Keegan, Kenneth
Speaker 1: bron A Killian Murphy, Mark Rylance Inane, Tom Hardy himself,
Speaker 1: cinematography by Hoyt van Hoytema again and music by Hans Zimmer.
Speaker 1: This had a budget of one hundred million and had
Speaker 1: a box up as a five hundred and forty nine
Speaker 1: million was considered to be the highest grossing World War
Speaker 1: Two movie of all time. Intel Oppenheimer made a billion.
Speaker 2: Dollars barely a World War Two movie, barely Oh by Bye,
Speaker 2: by proximity circumstance only so.
Speaker 1: The idea of this film came to Christer Nolan in
Speaker 1: the nineties when he sailed across the English Channel following
Speaker 1: this route Oh Wow with his wife Emma Thomas. He
Speaker 1: actually considered improvising the entire film and just like seeing
Speaker 1: what would happen, and then Emma Thomas, luckily is a
Speaker 1: good produceranism you need a script. The script of this
Speaker 1: was seventy six pages, half the length of Christ nolancause
Speaker 1: you gotta realize most Christ Nolan films are three hours long.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, this movie I actually thought was in the
Speaker 2: three hour club. And then we paused it at one
Speaker 2: point and it was like, oh, this is a reasonable
Speaker 2: l length film.
Speaker 1: Like most of Nolan's films that is told from three perspectives.
Speaker 1: We have the Land, which takes place over the entire
Speaker 1: one week of the miracle Dunkirk. We have c which
Speaker 1: is one day of action, and then we have the Air,
Speaker 1: which is one hour. Yeah. Now I think the Air
Speaker 1: is stretched a little bit. I think it's longer than
Speaker 1: an hour, although they keep looking back to his watch.
Speaker 1: I just don't think I believe that everything of all that,
Speaker 1: all those events take place in one hour. But you know, hey, whatever.
Speaker 1: But Nolan basically wanted to structure the film completely from
Speaker 1: the pov of the characters, and decided to base it
Speaker 1: on no real soldiers that participated in the event, and
Speaker 1: to also cast a majority of young and at that
Speaker 1: time young and upcoming British actors so that nobody would
Speaker 1: sort of steal the spot, like like in in a
Speaker 1: list actor.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so he said, let me cast Harry Styles. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 2: no one's gonna notice Harry Styles.
Speaker 1: And then well there was one of Harry styles first
Speaker 1: acting roles though. Yeah. So again it's the other thing
Speaker 1: is like Dunkirk is England's Alamo, if that makes any
Speaker 1: sense to which is interesting. But you know, this is
Speaker 1: gonna be a difficult one to talk about, I think,
Speaker 1: because this is so documentary, like it is so much
Speaker 1: in you know. I mean, we begin the movie with
Speaker 1: Tommy Again, I did not know his name was Tommy.
Speaker 2: I'm sure they say it one time and one time only, trying.
Speaker 1: To wander around the streets because he just wants to
Speaker 1: take a poop. He needs to take a poop.
Speaker 2: Well, he's with his homies and they're getting shot at
Speaker 2: and they run and then he kind of comes upon
Speaker 2: the beach. I mean, he's the only one who survives well.
Speaker 1: And he comes upon Now this character's named Gibson who's
Speaker 1: burying a body. Yeah, and Gibson's sort of also shell
Speaker 1: shocked as well, and they're sort of walking around and
Speaker 1: things like that, and they sort of like bond and
Speaker 1: they're all trying to figure out a way to get
Speaker 1: off of Dunkirk because of basically the evacuation. There's these
Speaker 1: giant lines. You know, he is to think about, what
Speaker 1: do you think about World War two movies always having
Speaker 1: scenes on the beach, you know, like because you're the
Speaker 1: most famous scene of Samon Priory Ryan is also a beach. Yeah.
Speaker 2: Well, I mean when you're dealing with France in Italy.
Speaker 2: A lot of it is coastal, right. My grandfather was
Speaker 2: involved in World War two and he was involved in
Speaker 2: the most Canadian famous Canadian battle on a beach, which
Speaker 2: is Juno Beach. I think it's just a matter of
Speaker 2: geography really. Then I think it's nice and easy to
Speaker 2: shoot on because now they're just beaches. Now you just
Speaker 2: go to France and you can just hang out on
Speaker 2: these beaches and it's kind of wild.
Speaker 1: Also, I think you did shoot this actually on the
Speaker 1: beach evacuation happened. Yeah.
Speaker 2: I also think from a narrative perspective, when you bring
Speaker 2: water into a situation, you add a physical level of
Speaker 2: discomfort that we can all relate to. We all know
Speaker 2: what it's like to have wet shoes, we all know
Speaker 2: what it's like to have wet pants, we all know
Speaker 2: what it's like for the wind to be blowing, for
Speaker 2: it to be cool. It adds a physical level of
Speaker 2: discomfort that your audience can understand in a way that
Speaker 2: most audience members can't understand what it's like to go
Speaker 2: to war. So I think from a film perspective, I
Speaker 2: think it's clever.
Speaker 1: Actually, do you think the three narrative storylines work in
Speaker 1: this movie because they rarely intersect. They the ones that intersect,
Speaker 1: or is basically the air in the sea like the land,
Speaker 1: only intersects at the very very end of the movie.
Speaker 2: Are arguably because we see Killian Murphy.
Speaker 1: In the like see him. We do see him in
Speaker 1: the lane. We see him. Do you see him in
Speaker 1: the land?
Speaker 2: Yeah, very briefly, I hear you. I like them, and
Speaker 2: I like that their timeline sort of don't converge too obviously.
Speaker 2: I think a lesser director would have all of would
Speaker 2: have like these three men, you.
Speaker 1: Would put their thumb on the scale and be like look, look.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, they would all like you would have Killian Murphy,
Speaker 2: Finn Whitehead and Tom Hardy like embrace and weep in
Speaker 2: each other's arm.
Speaker 1: Doesn't care if you don't put it together.
Speaker 2: No, and you don't need it. And I think it's
Speaker 2: quite clear from like maybe the second or third time
Speaker 2: we switch that were not all in the same timeline,
Speaker 2: but we are rushing toward some sort of logger like
Speaker 2: I don't I don't think it's particularly I don't think
Speaker 2: it's meant to be a huge obfuscation from the audience
Speaker 2: I do find it effective. I do want to shout
Speaker 2: out in the land storyline, when Gibson and Tommy are
Speaker 2: first trying to get on a boat and they take
Speaker 2: a corpse and they're trying to fake their way on,
Speaker 2: they're stopped by a warrant officer who was played by
Speaker 2: Bridgerton's own bisexual disaster Luke Thompson.
Speaker 1: And as we watched it, I was like, Hey, that's.
Speaker 2: Benedict from Bridgerton. So you'd made that comment earlier that
Speaker 2: it was sort of all these up and coming actors,
Speaker 2: and now that it's been nine years and a lot
Speaker 2: of them have up and came, I was like, Oh,
Speaker 2: I recognize him. Oh I recognized Jack Loaden. I recognize
Speaker 2: all these people that I didn't recognize when we were
Speaker 2: initially watching it playing these kind of like minimal parts
Speaker 2: in the film as well.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I also recognize that we have to take a
Speaker 1: quick commercial break and we're going to be right back
Speaker 1: talking about your favorite World War Two buddies right for
Speaker 1: this GHL, we're back talking about Nolan's heroes. The Lovable movie,
Speaker 1: where so many Allied soldiers behind enemy lines in nineteen
Speaker 1: forty are trying to get to Britain.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Remember remember when they dug the hole in the scene
Speaker 1: and I cannot believe that they dug the hole. They
Speaker 1: went under the fence and then they came up right
Speaker 1: into Colonel Clink's office. Can you believe at all?
Speaker 2: Literally, no idea what you were doing? Right?
Speaker 1: The Hogan's Heroes references. All the fifty year olds love it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I've definitely seen an episode of that. I've never
Speaker 2: seen Hogan's Heroes for a single second of my entire life.
Speaker 1: It's a it's a show that would not be made
Speaker 1: now at all.
Speaker 2: It's about, yeah, where the Nazis are like the goofy
Speaker 2: bad guys.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, Well it's it's about a bunch of Americans
Speaker 1: in a pow camp and they keep escaping through hijinks,
Speaker 1: right through hygiens yep, and they keep getting caught and
Speaker 1: Colonel Clink is just like, oh, hol again, you did
Speaker 1: it again.
Speaker 2: You know, we all work through our trauma in different ways.
Speaker 1: And yeah, any ran for several seasons.
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's there's not as much digging of holes, and
Speaker 2: there's more like getting on enough boats in Dune.
Speaker 1: There's a lot of Another alternate title of this movie
Speaker 1: is Karen back again. You can't get on a boat. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: the unnamed Tommy keeps getting in a boat. We also
Speaker 1: got to talk about what is the name of Tom
Speaker 1: Hardy's Again, I don't know the names of any Farrier.
Speaker 1: We do.
Speaker 2: Hear his name his his brother, Pilot Collins toward the
Speaker 2: end is like get him Ferrier, get them, So his
Speaker 2: name is Ferrier.
Speaker 1: So Ferrier. Tom Hardy shows up as one of the
Speaker 1: airplane pilot, the Spitfire pilots, because you know, he did
Speaker 1: some amazing forehead and eye acting in the Dark Knight Rises,
Speaker 1: so Nolan brought him back to do the same thing
Speaker 1: again in Dunk.
Speaker 2: You pointed out something really interesting when we were watching
Speaker 2: this that these characters who are you know, the these
Speaker 2: the World War One flying aces and and and the
Speaker 2: guys who are doing these jobs and for the RAF
Speaker 2: and stuff. Even the LUFTWAFFA planes are very new at
Speaker 2: this They are I think you said, they're basically driving
Speaker 2: cars in the sky. They are up there on a
Speaker 2: literal wing and a prayer. They're doing all the.
Speaker 1: Small planes have only been in existence for about twenty
Speaker 1: two years at this point. Yeah, So to put that
Speaker 1: into reality, that is almost the amount of time that
Speaker 1: well a little bit longer now, Yeah, that people have
Speaker 1: the general populace have been dealing with email. Yeah at
Speaker 1: this point. Yeah, that's how new planes are in this movie. Yeah.
Speaker 2: And I thought that that was a really brilliant observation
Speaker 2: because obviously, and this would have been true at the time,
Speaker 2: of course, but for the sake of the film, like
Speaker 2: these are the guys at the top of their game,
Speaker 2: which is why spoiler alert, they both survive at least
Speaker 2: to the end of the movie and ultimately achieve their goals.
Speaker 2: And it's why I think these two characters are the
Speaker 2: easiest to root for other than Mark Ray Lansen Coo
Speaker 2: sort of the most uncomplicated because everything that they're that
Speaker 2: they do is purely is pure heroism.
Speaker 1: Well, one of the I think the most brilliant pieces
Speaker 1: of writing that happens in this movie, yeah, is with
Speaker 1: the Tom Hardy storyline, because in the other two storylines
Speaker 1: on the land, we keep seeing Tommy. He gets on
Speaker 1: one boat, it sinks, he gets on another boat, it sinks,
Speaker 1: he gets on another boat, it sinks. Yeah, he can't
Speaker 1: get away. And then the Mark Rylance, who is the
Speaker 1: civilian mister Dawson. Yeah, so he's one of the civilians
Speaker 1: that been you know, and you know he is traveling
Speaker 1: to Dunkirk, and most of his storyline is just getting
Speaker 1: to Dunkirk. Yeah.
Speaker 2: Beautifully shot and really love all those scenes on the boat.
Speaker 1: And both storylines. There is not a classic film ticking clock,
Speaker 1: but for Tom Hardy there is. There is because his
Speaker 1: fuel gage is broken, and so about every fifteen minutes
Speaker 1: he is saying, what's your feel, what's your feel? And
Speaker 1: he's like, I'm down to this, I'm down to fifteen gallons.
Speaker 1: I'm down to fourteen gallons. And you see Tom Hardy
Speaker 1: literally writing down the ticking clock, so that there is
Speaker 1: sort of this tension of like, oh crap, when is
Speaker 1: Tom Hardy gonna run out of fuel?
Speaker 2: You also get the moment because Collins one of there's
Speaker 2: I think there's two other guys with him. Initially one
Speaker 2: of them gets shot down right off the bat and
Speaker 2: then it's Ferrier and Collins for a while. Collins winds
Speaker 2: up ditching into.
Speaker 1: The ocean and Tom Hardy thinks he's dead, and.
Speaker 2: Tom Hardy thinks he's dead, and then Tom Hardy there's
Speaker 2: a moment a couple scenes after that where you watch
Speaker 2: him and no one says it. It's all in the acting.
Speaker 2: It's really all in the eyes. You watch his character
Speaker 2: Ferrier make the decision like I either turn back or
Speaker 2: I'm landing on the beach and it is what it is,
Speaker 2: or I'm ditching right outside the beach, and it is
Speaker 2: like you watch him have that swell of heroism.
Speaker 1: It's a brilliant piece of eye acting because he sees
Speaker 1: a bomber, a German bomber in his rear view mirror. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and it is the idea because I assume what I
Speaker 1: assume it is is I assume he is heading back
Speaker 1: towards England. Yes, and so he sees the German bomber
Speaker 1: behind him and then yeah, you see him sort of
Speaker 1: do the struggle and then he turns the plane around. Yeah.
Speaker 1: And it is one of those things where like if
Speaker 1: he turns the plane around, he screwed.
Speaker 2: Yeah, because even if he lands, he is you know,
Speaker 2: as you said, he's probably gonna get picked up if
Speaker 2: he lands. First of all, if he lands successfully, and
Speaker 2: they make a bit of a meal out of the
Speaker 2: landing sequence. Although I find it very beautiful and very emotional,
Speaker 2: but yeah, it's it's one of the only moments of
Speaker 2: pure heroism that we really get in the whole This
Speaker 2: movie does a really good job at being like, there's
Speaker 2: no good guys and there's no bad guys, but it's
Speaker 2: a really brave thing.
Speaker 1: Well again, it's one of the This is why this
Speaker 1: is such a hard movie to talk about, because it's
Speaker 1: just there. There's not a lot of meat in these characters,
Speaker 1: and we don't really know about really any of the
Speaker 1: stuff that's happening any more than the soldiers do.
Speaker 2: Will you get the barest I think this is cleverly
Speaker 2: done too, where it's inserted. You get them barrass amount
Speaker 2: of exposition from James Darcy and Kenneth Brown at the
Speaker 2: two officers, and we only see them, i think in
Speaker 2: four seed five scenes in the whole film, and we
Speaker 2: cut to them every once in a while where it's like, well,
Speaker 2: why aren't why are we waiting on all these boats?
Speaker 2: Why isn't Churchill sending the full forces? And it gives
Speaker 2: us a little bit of like historical context as to
Speaker 2: why they're just sitting ducks here in the first place.
Speaker 2: And I think Nolan, compared to what we talked about,
Speaker 2: it Interstellar, where it is so overbloated.
Speaker 1: In the script.
Speaker 2: He shows such restraint in where he chooses and how
Speaker 2: he chooses to give us information throughout this film.
Speaker 1: Yeah, he intentionally said when writing this that he in sorry,
Speaker 1: I really badly messed up the same like just by Dunkirk,
Speaker 1: I messed up. I got blown up. He intentionally wrote
Speaker 1: as little dialogue as possible. Yeah, Hardy's do you know
Speaker 1: how many lines of dialogue Tom Hardy has in this movie?
Speaker 2: No?
Speaker 1: Ten? Wow, he only has ten lines of dialogue. You
Speaker 1: think you get that.
Speaker 2: Script and you're like, Helly, I can memorize this in
Speaker 2: an hour.
Speaker 1: Well you tell me, actor, Like, I honestly think I
Speaker 1: can only think about like how many days he was
Speaker 1: probably sitting on that cockpit. Oh he would have been.
Speaker 2: This would have been a long shoot from Yes, I think.
Speaker 1: About Look left, Tom, look right, Tom. Yeah, look for Lauren.
Speaker 2: Tom, be concerned, Tom Hardy.
Speaker 1: You spotted something in your mirror.
Speaker 2: Considering he plays a bunch of thugs and tough guys,
Speaker 2: Tom Hardy is a very emotional actor and is very
Speaker 2: very good at emoting at us, it kind of reminds
Speaker 2: me it's interesting, this is much easier to do on stage,
Speaker 2: I think. But in the musical Hamilton, the King George
Speaker 2: character has nine minutes on stage in a three hour musical.
Speaker 2: Everyone knows that character. That character is iconic. You know,
Speaker 2: if you're good and then material you're given is there,
Speaker 2: you can do a little with a lot and uh,
Speaker 2: you know, to sort of, I guess drive to the point.
Speaker 2: This movie literally makes me weep. And a lot of
Speaker 2: it is Tom Hardy's like his from from the time
Speaker 2: he arrives and he runs out of fuel till the
Speaker 2: end of the film. A lot of it is on
Speaker 2: his character. I just I find it. I find it
Speaker 2: so like beautiful and so sad in he's performing.
Speaker 1: If there were two hero characters in this movie, yeah,
Speaker 1: I don't argue that there are. But if there were
Speaker 1: two characters in this movie, it's Kenneth Brown and Tom Hardy. Yes,
Speaker 1: in the in.
Speaker 2: The traditional uh these are the war hero senses because
Speaker 2: they also give Keneth Brown.
Speaker 1: And I like this moment.
Speaker 2: It's a touch sacrain for the rest of the film.
Speaker 2: But I like the moment at the end where he
Speaker 2: says to James Darcy, I'm gonna wait for the French
Speaker 2: because he's been quite callous up to that point, and
Speaker 2: we're trying to soften him a little bit, and Kenth Brown.
Speaker 1: Is so good. The only moment of the movie that
Speaker 1: seems rightly to me it is it is definitely you
Speaker 1: and kind of betrays the spirit of like I think,
Speaker 1: what the rest of dunk Dunkirk If if there was
Speaker 1: any weakness, I would give that movie. It is that moment.
Speaker 2: Let me ask you this, then, counterpoint, because we talked
Speaker 2: about mister Dawson as played by Mark Rylance again in
Speaker 2: a film with Keneth browna arguably the two finest actors
Speaker 2: of their generation to the finest actors working.
Speaker 1: We haven't talked about the boys who are with him.
Speaker 2: Do you do you not find the moment where Peter
Speaker 2: goes to the town newspaper to write the obituary. You
Speaker 2: don't find that rightly?
Speaker 1: Well, let's a little a little flourish at the end. No,
Speaker 1: because I feel that set up. So let's let's talk
Speaker 1: about it escaping right today. Yeah, So we have Mark Rylance,
Speaker 1: he's a civilian Bodhist. His son is as Peter.
Speaker 2: He's played by Tom Glynn Carney, who you may recognize
Speaker 2: from being King Eggon and hou's the.
Speaker 1: Direct and then who who is Barry Keagan playing George? Okay,
Speaker 1: so George. So George is not Mark Rylance's son. He's
Speaker 1: just even know they have the same color hair. A friend,
Speaker 1: he's a guy. I think he works with them. Yeah,
Speaker 1: uncle boy. They have sort of been conscripted to go
Speaker 1: to Dunkirk, and so he takes off and then George
Speaker 1: comes with them, and we should talk about that. This
Speaker 1: is this is a very unique thing about Dunkirk. There
Speaker 1: are two stories of cowardice in this movie. So the
Speaker 1: biggest one is Tommy's entire storyline, the main guy that
Speaker 1: we're falling across the beach. He literally spends the entire
Speaker 1: movie just trying to get the hell away. He doesn't
Speaker 1: care who he betrays to do that. And then eventually
Speaker 1: he gets confronted with this idea of like, will you
Speaker 1: betray your morals?
Speaker 2: Yeah?
Speaker 1: Will you kill an innocent person to get away? Or
Speaker 1: and he says and he says no, He says no,
Speaker 1: he no, no, He fights. Harry Styles is the one
Speaker 1: that says yeah, but he doesn't stop them. But the
Speaker 1: problem is is that they get killed anyway because the
Speaker 1: boat gets fired. So that's beyond the point. But the one,
Speaker 1: the other one that is very harrowing is we basically
Speaker 1: want we see this point where we see Kelly and
Speaker 1: Murphy get fished out of the water. Yeah, and he
Speaker 1: is some sort of colonel. He's very shell shocked. Ye.
Speaker 1: And also like that he finds out that Mark Randlan
Speaker 1: and civilian boat's going back to Dunkirk, and he says,
Speaker 1: I turn around, I'm not going back. I'm not going back.
Speaker 1: In the course of not selling down, he pushes Barry
Speaker 1: Barry Keegan down the stairs.
Speaker 2: He doesn't even do it on purpose, He just sort
Speaker 2: of throws.
Speaker 1: Him off of he overreacts.
Speaker 2: Yes, but I just want in case anyone's not seen it,
Speaker 2: I don't want you to think he does not intentionally
Speaker 2: push this point.
Speaker 1: Now you haven't watch Dunkirk and you're listening to this podcast,
Speaker 1: what the hell you will do? People do watch Dunkirk.
Speaker 1: It's a great movie. God, I don't know how would
Speaker 1: you even know what the hell we're talking about. At
Speaker 1: this point, we've all done it. And Barry Keegan dies, Yeah,
Speaker 1: because at the back of his head open. Yeah, to
Speaker 1: the point where, like Harry Styles later gets on this
Speaker 1: boat and they're like leave George alone and he goes
Speaker 1: he's dead, mate, Yeah, so be careful. So when we
Speaker 1: first saw this in theaters, you asked me what I
Speaker 1: thought about, you know, because I'm a war veteran. Well yeah,
Speaker 1: a little, but like you, you did the thing, not
Speaker 1: like these boys.
Speaker 2: Look we're not it's apples and oranges. Yeah, but I mean,
Speaker 2: you know you and you are one of very few
Speaker 2: people I know who have done the thing. So I
Speaker 2: didn't know if you would have a different perspective on
Speaker 2: one on the stories of they're presented as stories of cowardice,
Speaker 2: even though like I'll say, this is my full chest,
Speaker 2: that would be me. Yep, I think that's most people.
Speaker 2: There's I didn't say that yet it may be like, yes,
Speaker 2: you would be. I'm sorry, No, no, I didn't take I
Speaker 2: didn't take it that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's like agreeing with your point. You know. I've
Speaker 1: always heard the thing there that that everyone's a coward
Speaker 1: in a Foxhall.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, there's no there's no atheist in a Foxhall.
Speaker 1: No atheist in a Foxhall. There's no cowards on a foxhall. Yeah.
Speaker 1: You know, people, your animal ins thinks take over and
Speaker 1: you do crazy things. I think that's the reason. That's
Speaker 1: where I like. I like the Tommy scene where they
Speaker 1: go into this trawler and they they're high, they're hiding
Speaker 1: and they're hoping high tied would carry her out. And
Speaker 1: then they find out that the guy that he saw
Speaker 1: on the beach was this Frenchman because they originally think
Speaker 1: he's a German spy and then he's a Frenchman. He
Speaker 1: does anything, Yeah, and then Tommy like defends him. Harry
Speaker 1: Styles is like ready to murder the guy. And then
Speaker 1: because they're making noise anyway, the Germans blow them full
Speaker 1: of bullets. So the ship's gonna sink anyway. Yeah, you know,
Speaker 1: it's it. There is if there is any sort of
Speaker 1: narrative thing in this, it is this idea where like
Speaker 1: there is a subtle, subconscious thing of Tommy's cowardice could
Speaker 1: be being punished because every obstacle that could get in
Speaker 1: Tommy's way gets in Tommy's way. I mean, he's on
Speaker 1: three different ships that sink, and you know there are
Speaker 1: a lot of ships that sank during Dunkirk. But there
Speaker 1: if there's any piece of this that, yeah, as a
Speaker 1: little might be subconscious, right, really, yeah, it might be
Speaker 1: that well, if you can.
Speaker 2: If you consider that in the opening sequence, he's running
Speaker 2: with his I don't know if it would be a
Speaker 2: squad or a platoon, or he's running with his squad.
Speaker 1: They all get mowed down.
Speaker 2: He does nothing, drops his gun to defend these his brothers,
Speaker 2: and you know, however you want to call his colleagues,
Speaker 2: how you want to think about it, he just runs. So, yeah,
Speaker 2: is is this his karma for that?
Speaker 1: Or is that too? Is that too hoity toity?
Speaker 2: And is it just like this is horrible and this
Speaker 2: is how everyone acts because it is so horrible because
Speaker 2: it's an impossible situation.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I you know, war as hell, Yeah I do. Mash.
Speaker 2: Mash really really nailed it.
Speaker 1: Mash did really nailize it. You know, we're gonna make
Speaker 1: the rest of this podcast episode about Mash, but we're
Speaker 1: gonna do that would be the first time right after this, GHL,
Speaker 1: we're back Nolan Club or we might be turning this
Speaker 1: into Mash club because oh, sad is painless. It brings
Speaker 1: on many change. All Right, again, this is a hard
Speaker 1: movie to talk about it It's hard.
Speaker 2: Look, it's hard when.
Speaker 1: This movie is a vibe.
Speaker 2: Yeah again, you described this as one of the biggest budget.
Speaker 1: Art films ever made.
Speaker 2: I think that's accurate, but I don't think it's It's
Speaker 2: not like French New Way, which I know drives you
Speaker 2: in particular a little mad. It's not it's not art
Speaker 2: for art's sake. It is driving at something. It is emotional,
Speaker 2: it is arresting and effective. I think the Killian Murphy
Speaker 2: Mark Rylance stuff is so effective because it's very sad that,
Speaker 2: like the character is played by Barry Keegan, George is
Speaker 2: like this boy from a small town who wasn't good
Speaker 2: at school, who works as a fisherman, whose dream is
Speaker 2: to one day do something good enough to be in
Speaker 2: the paper.
Speaker 1: He's like, it's he's.
Speaker 2: A small He's a small man with small dream. And
Speaker 2: I'm not saying that it's a bad way to live
Speaker 2: or anything like that, but that's how he's presented.
Speaker 1: To us as a character.
Speaker 2: He is, Yeah, I might be tall about him. And
Speaker 2: then and then Killian Murphy in his own grief, who
Speaker 2: is a colonel, kills him by accident five to seven. Well,
Speaker 2: he's okay, so that means he's five to five. Let's
Speaker 2: be real.
Speaker 1: Apparently a ways, approximately one hundred and fifty nine pounds.
Speaker 2: Sure, Jan, Look, I've met a lot of male actors
Speaker 2: whose IMDb says they're five to seven, and we see
Speaker 2: eye to eye, and I know how tall Ashley is anyway,
Speaker 2: and then Kelly Murphy's character accidentally kills him. And what's
Speaker 2: so brilliant about that is I feel bad for Barry
Speaker 2: Keegan and I feel bad for Killian Murphy's character because
Speaker 2: it's like it's it's it's hurt people, hurt people writ large,
Speaker 2: I think across the whole film, and I think that's
Speaker 2: why you can get away with the cool sideway shots
Speaker 2: of the fighter planes, like the Artier moments, because it
Speaker 2: has this emotional core at its center.
Speaker 1: Nolan said this, and I think he's absolutely right, and
Speaker 1: it's an interesting perspective where he said that he did
Speaker 1: not want this to be like other war films where
Speaker 1: you cut away to Churchill and other leaders in a
Speaker 1: war room. He only wanted to show the war from
Speaker 1: the perspective war. Another technique that he is is we
Speaker 1: do not technically see any Germans in this movie, except
Speaker 1: for the out of focused Germans that point rifles at
Speaker 1: Tom Hardy at the very end.
Speaker 2: I also appreciate that a lot of war films and
Speaker 2: I'm not saying this isn't true, but want to do
Speaker 2: the visceral body horror for the sake of it, and
Speaker 2: we don't get that here, even though we do get
Speaker 2: horrific injury and death throughout. I think Nolan is like
Speaker 2: too much of a class act to go down that route.
Speaker 2: And I don't find this any less harrowing than some
Speaker 2: of the films that do that.
Speaker 1: So you know, the one thing I will say about
Speaker 1: this is that, especially off of Interstellar, is that I'm
Speaker 1: glad that Nolan sort of took a breath of fresh
Speaker 1: air and kind of just like really stripped everything back,
Speaker 1: because I worry that if he had made Dark Knight Rises,
Speaker 1: then Interstellar, then Tenant. Yeah, I think maybe in director jail.
Speaker 1: I think he might be in director jail. But then
Speaker 1: also I think if we were going into like, you know,
Speaker 1: the same odyssey, I think I think you and I
Speaker 1: would be having a completely different conversation where I think, ah,
Speaker 1: you and I are still hopeful for it for sure,
Speaker 1: and I think we would. I think instead the conversation
Speaker 1: would be like we'd be like, oh boy, this is
Speaker 1: not gonna be good. This is gonna be good.
Speaker 2: Because because because one of the things that I hope
Speaker 2: he takes from Dunkirk forward into the Odyssey is this
Speaker 2: level of restraint. I think this film is an exercising
Speaker 2: restraint on on every level, which is why I think
Speaker 2: Tennant is an over correction back the other one.
Speaker 1: I said this to you where we were watching the movie,
Speaker 1: that I have a feeling that the battle scenes in
Speaker 1: the Odyssey are going to be very inspired by this. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm a feeling they're going to be very silent. I
Speaker 1: think they're going to be very visible.
Speaker 2: Oh my god, Jason, it's another beach too.
Speaker 1: Yep. And I think I think he's just gonna let
Speaker 1: I think. I think all of the Trojan war scenes
Speaker 1: are gonna be like Dunkirk. I think he's just going
Speaker 1: to show you, like I think, I think no one
Speaker 1: is going to give us the experience, the actual real experience,
Speaker 1: which I haven't really felt in a lot of movies
Speaker 1: since like Braveheart. Yeah, where you're just in this mob
Speaker 1: of people and you're lucky if you can even figure
Speaker 1: out that the guy next to you is on you
Speaker 1: might as well just keep stabbing.
Speaker 2: I also wonder if he's gonna you criticize the selective
Speaker 2: use of silence in the Batman v.
Speaker 1: Baane fight. Uh huh, I do like it.
Speaker 2: I think it goes on for too long because we
Speaker 2: have another selective use of silence in There's quite a
Speaker 2: lengthy sequence where Tom Hardy's landing the plane on the
Speaker 2: beach and he has to manually pump down the landing gear,
Speaker 2: which I think is really a beautifully shot, really emotional
Speaker 2: moment where he is resigning himself to his fate.
Speaker 1: But he's so good at his job.
Speaker 2: He and he he has accomplished this with such a
Speaker 2: plumb he even lands perfectly with no fuel, and that
Speaker 2: whole sequence is done in complete silence, And I wonder
Speaker 2: if he's going to transpose that into some of the
Speaker 2: Trojan war sequences.
Speaker 1: A lot of this movie also was shot with natural light.
Speaker 1: There's very few scenes that actually have film lighting in
Speaker 1: this movie.
Speaker 2: I would love to know which scenes have film lading.
Speaker 1: Okay, I would imagine it's all the scenes inside the ship.
Speaker 2: Oh, where you would need a film later there would
Speaker 2: be you know what, I think you.
Speaker 1: Might have nailed that. Yeah. There's also no women in
Speaker 1: this entire world. There's a couple of there's no main women,
Speaker 1: main characters.
Speaker 2: Now, there's a couple of nurses who have about do life.
Speaker 1: There's a couple of ladies. You know, let's let's just
Speaker 1: get link. Is there is there an actor in this
Speaker 1: that stands out to you?
Speaker 2: I will say everyone is at the top of their game.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: I would say I definitely have a pick for who
Speaker 2: I think is the worst actor in this. But that
Speaker 2: being said, I don't think they're particularly bad. I think
Speaker 2: best actor just for you, it's Mark Rylance. Mark Rylance
Speaker 2: gives such a real and grounded performance, and there's a
Speaker 2: couple real moments of empathy and emotion. He reveals that
Speaker 2: you see one of his sons throughout the film, and
Speaker 2: he reveals that he had another son who was in
Speaker 2: the First.
Speaker 1: World War who died no no, no.
Speaker 2: Who sorry, he was in the Second World War who died.
Speaker 1: He died in the first three months. That's right of war.
Speaker 2: And and it's it's just a he just it's not
Speaker 2: a very emotional performance, but you can feel the tidal
Speaker 2: wave of emotion that he's holding back when he says
Speaker 2: that I think Mark Rylance probably gives blow for blow
Speaker 2: the best performance in this film. I also think Tom
Speaker 2: Hardy it is just I think it's one of his
Speaker 2: best roles. I think he's like phenomenal in this Is
Speaker 2: there an actor for you who really stands out?
Speaker 1: I mean I think it's Mark Rylance.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: I don't think there is a weak performance here. I
Speaker 1: really don't, because, like I don't don't think there are
Speaker 1: enough really scenes that there aren't really a lot of
Speaker 1: moments where it would allow a weak performance to show out.
Speaker 2: I just wish Tom Harry Styles knew that you don't
Speaker 2: have to yell all of your lines to that you're angry.
Speaker 1: Oh, it's interesting. I disagree with that completely. I think
Speaker 1: Harry Styles is just fine in this movie.
Speaker 2: I think he's fine, but I think he is not.
Speaker 2: He's not, but I think compared to every I think
Speaker 2: he is the worst actor in this movie. But I
Speaker 2: think compared to everyone else, I think he's the weakest
Speaker 2: one for sure. But I don't think he's bad. Yeah,
Speaker 2: but he spends a lot of time yelling everybody out there.
Speaker 2: If you want, you just shouts out there.
Speaker 1: If you go to our Patreon Patreon dot com slash
Speaker 1: Shahan and jw I I n we will record you know,
Speaker 1: we record these episodes way ahead of time, way on
Speaker 1: order and stuff like that. We're gonna be doing a
Speaker 1: live reaction to the new Odyssey trailer that Christopher Nolan
Speaker 1: has debut in the lay show. Now, if you're listening
Speaker 1: to this at Dunkirk's airtime, you're like, wait a minute,
Speaker 1: that trailer came out a month ago. Yeah, yeah, that's right.
Speaker 1: So you're gonna go back in the feed and you're
Speaker 1: gonna find that there's two GHL extras in a row.
Speaker 1: We gave you. We gave you a bonus, and if
Speaker 1: there's not a GHL extra this week, you can get over.
Speaker 1: It's fine. Yeah, but uh, we wanted to be timely.
Speaker 1: He wanted to be ahead of time. And there you go.
Speaker 1: So head on over there, get that, Go over to
Speaker 1: our exclusive discord, go over and listen to some bonus
Speaker 1: episodes and stuff like that, and get our live reaction
Speaker 1: on the Odyssey trailer. Ashley, beyond the film stuff, I
Speaker 1: just really, what what other lessons do you think he
Speaker 1: is taking from this movie on into the Odyssey.
Speaker 2: I think we're gonna see I think we're seeing a
Speaker 2: lot of how Odysseus is gonna be in this movie.
Speaker 1: We expand that a little bit. So this is a
Speaker 1: this is a.
Speaker 2: Jason emanphrase that I'm gonna steal.
Speaker 1: Okay know that you did this? Yeah?
Speaker 2: Well maybe, don't you know?
Speaker 1: Uh? Okay.
Speaker 2: Odysseus is the greatest war vet He's.
Speaker 1: The greatest war veteran. He's the most famous war veteran
Speaker 1: of all. Yeah.
Speaker 2: And I think looking at how these characters, like this
Speaker 2: is a movie of trauma. Everyone's trauma is relative, well,
Speaker 2: it's active, well even down to like Peter who is
Speaker 2: watching Lance's son, who watches his friend die in front
Speaker 2: of him as they are trying to save people's lives, right, Like,
Speaker 2: everyone is at a different point in their grief process.
Speaker 2: And I think we're going to see a lot of
Speaker 2: that transposed onto Odysseus specifically, but the other characters throughout
Speaker 2: the odyssey. I think the behavior of those characters is
Speaker 2: going to be closer to the characters in Dunkirk than
Speaker 2: in any of the other Nolan than like Arthur an
Speaker 2: Inception or Batman or whatever, even though all of Nolan's
Speaker 2: characters do carry a trauma. Again, he loves a dead wife,
Speaker 2: loves a dead wife or a dead girlfriend.
Speaker 1: How's he gonna get around that in the aud's no
Speaker 1: dead wife in the aut.
Speaker 2: Well, there's the dead husbands in the Yeah warm, Yeah,
Speaker 2: exactly that take that. Yeah, this is gonna be this
Speaker 2: real feminist term to.
Speaker 1: Get around that. Nolan, He's like, they all.
Speaker 2: Make it back. Fine. I think he's definitely going to
Speaker 2: take that. I think, like I said, I think he's
Speaker 2: gonna take the selective use of silence. I also think,
Speaker 2: and you and I have sort of touched on this
Speaker 2: in various theories add nauseum here in Nolan Club. But
Speaker 2: I think we're gonna get the criss crossy timelines. And
Speaker 2: I don't know if it's gonna be the one hour,
Speaker 2: one day, one week, but I think it's gonna be.
Speaker 2: I think it's gonna be not dissimilar to this.
Speaker 1: Actually, I think you're exactly right. I think the biggest
Speaker 1: thing is is that I have a feeling that the
Speaker 1: editing style of this movie, yeah, is the editing of
Speaker 1: the Odyssey.
Speaker 2: Like, if it's the exact thing, then the one hour
Speaker 2: will be the Telemachus storyline, the one day will be
Speaker 2: him washing up on Ithaca, and the one.
Speaker 1: Week will be his journey back.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, it'll be it'll be like some version of.
Speaker 1: That, and he will. Like in this movie, there's several
Speaker 1: points where we hop into the other storyline. Yeah, and
Speaker 1: sometimes just the way the editing is, you don't really
Speaker 1: realize that you have, yeah, like teke you a couple
Speaker 1: of character or like a piece.
Speaker 2: Of dialogue, lets you know.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's no like subtitles being like ten am Tuesday, or.
Speaker 1: Even clear visual distinct like like shooting and collar versus
Speaker 1: black and white. Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, like like oh look now we're in the snowbass,
Speaker 2: so we're definitely one more level down.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, an inception. All right, So really quickly before
Speaker 1: we get to our ratings here, I want to ask
Speaker 1: you Ashley that there's something you told me before this
Speaker 1: podcast is so you told me about how this movie
Speaker 1: sort of connected to a thing from Black Hawk down
Speaker 1: for you.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, yeah, You're going to save this, yeah until
Speaker 2: after our messages and we'll be right back after this.
Speaker 1: GHL, We're back talking about No End Club. Dunkirk is here.
Speaker 2: Great soundtrack, by the way.
Speaker 1: Dunkirk might be the most like the Odyssey that we've
Speaker 1: ever predicted. Yeah. Actually, talking about other war movies, an
Speaker 1: old favorite of mine is Black Hawk down. It's a
Speaker 1: very movie that makes me very emotional. I think it's
Speaker 1: one of the best war movies ever made. And when
Speaker 1: after we watched this, actually you said that there was
Speaker 1: a piece of black Hawk down or it was a
Speaker 1: piece of Dunkirk that reminds me connected to back down somehow,
Speaker 1: and you said you were like, I will tell you
Speaker 1: on the podcast. Well, if you're on the podcast, time
Speaker 1: is now.
Speaker 2: The thing that Jason is not struggle with is we
Speaker 2: watch the films and then because we're yappers, I know, shockers,
Speaker 2: two people who have done a podcast for twelve years,
Speaker 2: we want to talk about it right away.
Speaker 1: M hmm.
Speaker 2: And I often have these thoughts that I'm like, i
Speaker 2: should just say this for the podcast so that I'm
Speaker 2: not repeating myself and you can have like a more
Speaker 2: authentic reaction to it. So, you know, as I was
Speaker 2: weeping in the last twenty minutes, So this film, I'm
Speaker 2: a real mark for any war movie because obviously my
Speaker 2: dad was an officer, you were a soldier. It makes
Speaker 2: me like real, it makes me real sad to think
Speaker 2: about those things happening to people that I care about,
Speaker 2: like you know, because I have basic human empathy, so
Speaker 2: I watched Black Hawk Down with you for the first
Speaker 2: time because I never I'd never seen it before. And
Speaker 2: the scene in Black.
Speaker 1: House also starring Tom Hardy, yeah, very.
Speaker 2: Young Darry also starring out of Prince Hector Abanas in
Speaker 2: this well and also Prince Paris because Orlando Bloom is in.
Speaker 1: That as well. Just to tie it all back to
Speaker 1: the odysty for you, uh uh.
Speaker 2: The scene that makes me cry and that is when
Speaker 2: the helicopter goes down. I know one of the one
Speaker 2: of the actors in that scene is Jamie Costerwaldo of
Speaker 2: Game of Thrones.
Speaker 1: Fame, and I'm Michael Bean I think.
Speaker 2: And one of the one of them is injured and
Speaker 2: so the other two guys decide to stay with him
Speaker 2: and then spoiler alert, they all die because that is
Speaker 2: what happens, because it's.
Speaker 1: Based on a real hohistorical event, just like just like
Speaker 1: Kirk exactly.
Speaker 2: And I just think it is I'm gonna get emotional
Speaker 2: talking about this. I just think it is like such
Speaker 2: a brave thing to do that for you know, your
Speaker 2: brother in arms or however you want to think about that.
Speaker 1: And do you feel the same about Tom Hardy?
Speaker 2: I like, it's why it makes me cry, and like
Speaker 2: watching him land on the beach and I'm just like,
Speaker 2: I could never do that, and I just think it
Speaker 2: is like this incredible. I think it's like such a
Speaker 2: beautiful act of bravery and humanity.
Speaker 1: I'm so sorry that I'm getting emotion fun on it.
Speaker 2: I don't think I've ever like cried cry all the
Speaker 2: podcast before, but it just it just.
Speaker 1: Really gets to me.
Speaker 2: And I don't I don't know if that's because I
Speaker 2: know I couldn't do that and I would just be
Speaker 2: a coward. I don't know if that's like again my
Speaker 2: my personal relationship to people in the military, but like,
Speaker 2: I think it is just such like a beautiful, brave,
Speaker 2: unimaginable thing to do, to just be that selfless, and
Speaker 2: it's so beautifully filmed in this movie that like even
Speaker 2: though it's obviously like horrific and petrifying, and then you
Speaker 2: had the gall to be like and he's a probably
Speaker 2: doesn't survive. I was like, don't.
Speaker 1: Say that about I don't think I said he probably
Speaker 1: doesn't survive, Like he's definitely best. He's a p O
Speaker 1: W right, you know, best if they don't shoot him,
Speaker 1: that's what I mean.
Speaker 2: Or yeah, if they don't like, we don't see it
Speaker 2: because he's not a real person. But we don't see
Speaker 2: that in the film, right, We just see them kind
Speaker 2: of come up on it.
Speaker 1: More than likely he goes to war a prisoner of war.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but it just it really reminded me of that
Speaker 2: moment in Black Hawk Down because I just think it's
Speaker 2: like the bravest thing you and the most selfless thing
Speaker 2: that you can do in that circumstance. It just makes
Speaker 2: me really emotional. So sorry everyone to cry. You know,
Speaker 2: it's a thing where you know, but I think that
Speaker 2: speaks to why this is a great This is the
Speaker 2: only Christopher Nolan movie that makes me cry.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I haven't seen The Odyssey yet. You're gonna make
Speaker 1: a ball.
Speaker 2: You know what, Bill Irwin deserves to make me cry,
Speaker 2: because that man is a genius. You know.
Speaker 1: If there's any if there's any movie that we've already
Speaker 1: talked about on Geekish Lesson, it should be this one.
Speaker 1: And thank you for being vulnerable and sharing me that
Speaker 1: moment and everybody emotions are great And don't make fun
Speaker 1: of Ashley or I'll come beat you up. But you know,
Speaker 1: the thing I think works about that is that you know.
Speaker 1: It's the thing I said to you we watched this movie,
Speaker 1: is that War two might be one of the last
Speaker 1: conflicts in our history where we actually thought there were
Speaker 1: good guys and bad guys, because the real answer is
Speaker 1: is that there are new good guys or bad guys
Speaker 1: in any war. Yeah, you said that at the beginning.
Speaker 1: Everybody is wrong. Yeah, because honestly, war is one of
Speaker 1: those stupidest things we could ever do.
Speaker 2: Ye, we don't need to solve our problems like that exactly.
Speaker 1: And it is that thing where you know, the Germans
Speaker 1: in those planes are just as good of guys as
Speaker 1: Tom Hardy. They are also people protecting their homewands.
Speaker 2: Doing the best that they can, trying to keep their
Speaker 2: families alive.
Speaker 1: It's also wipe, I'm wiping aside the Hitler stuff. We
Speaker 1: all know the Hitler was a pretty bad guy. But
Speaker 1: also you have to realize that, like on every side,
Speaker 1: there's always a soldier that is doing it to defend
Speaker 1: their home. So there were also German soldiers. And I
Speaker 1: also know as well that falling orders is not a defense.
Speaker 1: It has been proven in many war crimes. But anyways,
Speaker 1: I think the reason why the Tom Hardy moment connects
Speaker 1: with you is just because we want to assume that
Speaker 1: in wars, and we've seen this in moments of history
Speaker 1: time and time again, where that is a person putting
Speaker 1: the welfare of the group above themselves. It is where
Speaker 1: the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the one. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and it's rare when we see a person commit to that. Yeah.
Speaker 2: It reminds me to bring up another great or movie
Speaker 2: of Desmond Doss in Hexa Rich Yeah, yeah, where you're like,
Speaker 2: what a perfect expression of.
Speaker 1: And and he did that without a weapon. Yeah, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: and that's a real event too.
Speaker 2: And I think that that is when we think of
Speaker 2: the idea that there is glory and heroism and war
Speaker 2: that I think that's what I think, that's what we're
Speaker 2: all imagining, Yeah, is being able to do something like that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, so I'm glad that that moment really,
Speaker 1: it does, it does.
Speaker 2: It's a great actor in a great movie.
Speaker 1: Let's get to Yeah. The Nolan Club rating here of
Speaker 1: Dunkirk based on a scale of one to five, where
Speaker 1: would you put Dunkirks being the best one being the worst?
Speaker 1: I mean it's a five, you know.
Speaker 2: I'm we'll talk about this when we whenever we redo
Speaker 2: our rankings, probably probably during the last Nolan Club.
Speaker 1: This movie is not a fun movie, but.
Speaker 2: I think objectively, for me, this might be his best movie. Again,
Speaker 2: it draws the strongest emotional reaction from me, and that
Speaker 2: is sort of how I judge the quality of things.
Speaker 2: I think. I just think this movie's phenomenal from start
Speaker 2: to finish. Even when I think Harry Styles is yelling
Speaker 2: a bit too much, I can forgive it.
Speaker 1: I think it's so I think it's so interesting you
Speaker 1: focused on Harry Harry Styles because I don't think he's
Speaker 1: anywhere near as bad as you think.
Speaker 2: I don't think he's bad, but I think he's definitely
Speaker 2: the worst actor in this film. Jason, one out of
Speaker 2: five bregos. How many bregos are you giving? Dunkirk?
Speaker 1: So fun to say this has definitely gone up in
Speaker 1: my estimation.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, which is fair. And you're also your opinions
Speaker 2: are allowed to change.
Speaker 1: Yes, imagine that, Yes, in your appreciation of media and
Speaker 1: stuff like that. I think I think this is a
Speaker 1: solid four. I don't think it's a perfect movie.
Speaker 2: What keeps it from being a five for you? And
Speaker 2: you could not have an ant, sir, that's that's completely funny.
Speaker 1: The dryness of it. It is dry because it is
Speaker 1: specifically that it feels more like a documentary than a film.
Speaker 1: That is it. I think you know, and I here's
Speaker 1: the thing. I don't think Nolan is the director to
Speaker 1: do this. But if you take the same movie, the
Speaker 1: same plotlines, the same structure, give it a just like
Speaker 1: I talked about with The Bane and Batman Flight, give
Speaker 1: it a bit of dramatic flair, and I think you
Speaker 1: have a perfect five. I think you might have one
Speaker 1: of the greatest movies I've ever seen because you didn't
Speaker 1: do that. I think it's a four. He's not an
Speaker 1: emotional director. He's not. He is not. He is a technical,
Speaker 1: is a tactician, scientific director, and he's very good at it.
Speaker 1: And I and I it's it's it's the whole reason
Speaker 1: why I was like, we need to do Nolan Club
Speaker 1: because again, the Odyssey is still an odd choice for
Speaker 1: Christopher Nolan well.
Speaker 2: For numerous reasons. And don't worry, friends, we're brewing. We're
Speaker 2: ruting some honesty stuff that's not just the movie for you.
Speaker 2: First of all, the Odyssey is poetry, and the Odyssey
Speaker 2: and the Iliad Against and the Aenea are very very
Speaker 2: deeply emotional stories, deeply deeply deeply emotions.
Speaker 1: And they're fantasy, and fantasy is not you know again,
Speaker 1: like this is his I'm excited. I'm excited to see
Speaker 1: this is his strength. No, I remember, I remember because
Speaker 1: you know, when we can't even feel this in the podcast, like,
Speaker 1: you know, we talked about Darknight Rises and the problems, right,
Speaker 1: and we've talked about Interstellar the problems that we had
Speaker 1: with it, and and it is this thing where it's
Speaker 1: just like the technical parts of both of those movies
Speaker 1: are freaking amazing.
Speaker 2: Yeah, those movies aren't bad movies, which is why I
Speaker 2: think we sort of feel frustration because we're like, you're
Speaker 2: so close to getting there.
Speaker 1: But the emotional moments are not quite Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1: And it's interesting because I remember walking away from this
Speaker 1: movie that theaters and thinking like, oh wow, if Christopher
Speaker 1: Nolan sort of just becomes I'm gonna tell stories about
Speaker 1: real people and in sort of my style, I'm in
Speaker 1: Because again, I think Dunkirk is a solid four movie.
Speaker 1: And I also say that, you know, because we have
Speaker 1: an upcoming one as well.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: I think Oppenheimer is a solid movie. I really think
Speaker 1: Oppenheimer's a solid movie, you know, so like it is,
Speaker 1: it's interesting where I wonder I'm very curious to know
Speaker 1: what he's going to do after the Odyssey. Like I'm
Speaker 1: wondering because like he's sort of I'm like, is he
Speaker 1: going to continue this trend where like, is the next
Speaker 1: movie after the Odyssey going to be a historical non
Speaker 1: fiction movie again? Because he's done that, He's done, He's
Speaker 1: a We've done Dunkirk Tennant Oppenheimer Odyssey. The Odyssey is
Speaker 1: not nonfiction. Oppenheimer is a noth Oh.
Speaker 2: Sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry. Well,
Speaker 2: it'll be interested if he gets beaten over the head
Speaker 2: to do to the Iliad.
Speaker 1: I don't think he'll do it, Nolan. I here's my thing.
Speaker 1: I think The Dark Knight Rises has cured no one
Speaker 1: of ever doing a sequel. Ever.
Speaker 2: Again, he didn't technically a prequel. He didn't what the
Speaker 2: Iliad comes before the Odyssey.
Speaker 1: Oh. I was like, I thought you were saying the
Speaker 1: Dark Knight Rises. Oh no, no, no, no about yeah.
Speaker 2: Remember when Batman fought Made and he broke his.
Speaker 1: Back beforeman begins. No, I you know, like I think
Speaker 1: because he did not want to do The Dark I
Speaker 1: hear you, I hear I don't think. I don't think
Speaker 1: we'll ever catch Christoph Noland doing a sequel ever again.
Speaker 2: Probably not.
Speaker 1: So I'm very curious where I'm like, Okay, what is
Speaker 1: he going to announce a historical nons I hear you, Yeah,
Speaker 1: and what what and what probably said during World War Two? Again?
Speaker 1: You know, like what is his next World War two
Speaker 1: movie gonna be? Or is he finally going to move
Speaker 1: into the Korean War? You know? Or are we going
Speaker 1: to get the Christopher Nolan Vietnam movie?
Speaker 2: Yeah?
Speaker 1: You know, like what what is his you know? Well
Speaker 1: or what do you go for?
Speaker 2: The back? Like he's an Englishman, so yeah, somewhere in
Speaker 2: English history, right.
Speaker 1: Yeah, like I don't know, you know, like here's the
Speaker 1: crazy thing. What would Christopher Nolan American Revolution movie look like?
Speaker 1: Or no thinking about this, no, Christopher Nolan, Okay, here's
Speaker 1: the thing, help me out with this event? Sure? What
Speaker 1: was the historical event where the Spanish Armada came over
Speaker 1: to England? Yeah? That had just been and they burn
Speaker 1: all the ships with Queen Elizabeth. Yeah, yes, I will
Speaker 1: imagine Christopher Nolan doing that.
Speaker 2: Imagine him doing the Battle Lagenore, which was supposed to
Speaker 2: be the final battle between England.
Speaker 1: And the Battle of Hayes. Theats the battle, Yeah, like
Speaker 1: is the ad? Is the honesty? Christopher Noland? Like buckling
Speaker 1: up for the Battle of Hastings.
Speaker 2: Honestly, he screw it. Just give him Henry the fourth,
Speaker 2: Henry the fifth, give him, give him the sat give
Speaker 2: me the same Chrispin's Day speech.
Speaker 1: Let's do it well.
Speaker 2: Do do the tutors and give me the big fat.
Speaker 1: Henry the eighth. I deserve. Okay, So here's the okay. Yeah,
Speaker 1: because okay, let's go down that route. Yeah. No. One
Speaker 1: has said in the past that sometimes he picks his
Speaker 1: movies as sort of testing grounds yeah for future movies.
Speaker 1: Like he specifically said that he waited on making Dunkirk
Speaker 1: because he felt that he had to make a big
Speaker 1: enough movie where he felt comfortable making a war movie.
Speaker 2: I think it's incredibly inteligent of him. Can you imagine
Speaker 2: if he tried to do this ten years earlier, well
Speaker 2: after Momento.
Speaker 1: He also said that because he was going to make
Speaker 1: Inception after a Momento crazy, And then he basically said
Speaker 1: that he was like I need to be a good
Speaker 1: enough director to make big movies. So let me ask you,
Speaker 1: this is the Odyssey his testing ground for another realist
Speaker 1: like a you're talking about a historical battleground movie. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that'd be neat you know, like, I don't know, I'm curious,
Speaker 1: like I would be interested in that if the Odyssey
Speaker 1: is great? Yeah, yeah, you know, he's proven to me,
Speaker 1: he's proven himself that he can do historical nonfiction really well.
Speaker 1: Like his style I think really works for that.
Speaker 2: I think so because it has to be a little
Speaker 2: dry and a little removed.
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, yeah, I don't know. Interesting. Yeah, all right, everybody.
Speaker 1: If you're also interested in more, you can listen to
Speaker 1: this podcast on Spotify and Apple Podcasts and all those places. Actually,
Speaker 1: where can they find us on social media?
Speaker 2: You can find us all over socials at geek history lesson.
Speaker 1: Actually, where can they find you on social media?
Speaker 2: You find me everywhere at Ashley V. Robinson, Jason. Where
Speaker 2: can we find you on the socials?
Speaker 1: I'm at John and JW. I in when I decided
Speaker 1: to post, and now it's time for what have we
Speaker 1: learned today? Well, folks, we've learned that if you're going
Speaker 1: to get on a boat and be saved by a war.
Speaker 1: Make sure it's piloted by Mark Rylance. Yeah, exactly, trust
Speaker 1: in Mark Rylance. And if you're going to have a
Speaker 1: plane be flown around, make sure it's flown by Tom Hardy. Yeah,
Speaker 1: especially if he's wearing a mask, because definitely, if there's
Speaker 1: one person in charge of that plane, it's burned.
Speaker 2: He crashed a plane and then he flew one with
Speaker 2: great skill.
Speaker 1: He redeemed himself. Yeah, rash that plane into Ireland and
Speaker 1: then he and then he made sure he landed it
Speaker 1: perfectly in France, Ireland.
Speaker 2: Astan Kack I think it was his Becka's name, but
Speaker 2: it's definitely the Irish Shells.
Speaker 1: No better pilot than bird. Thank you all for listening
Speaker 1: to this very somber episode and lovely episode of Dunkirk
Speaker 1: g h L.
Speaker 2: I'm Jason Edman, I'm actually Victoria Robinson and Professor Jason.
Speaker 1: Would you please dismiss the class classes now dismissed soldiers