WEBVTT 1 00:00:05.120 --> 00:00:07.919 Oh g is folks, it should die. 2 00:00:08.679 --> 00:00:10.599 People say good money to see this movie. 3 00:00:10.919 --> 00:00:13.560 When they go out to a theater, they want clod sodas, 4 00:00:13.880 --> 00:00:17.199 pop popcorn and no monsters in the projection booth. 5 00:00:17.359 --> 00:00:19.199 Everyone pretend podcasting isn't boring. 6 00:00:20.239 --> 00:00:20.879 Got it off. 7 00:00:39.200 --> 00:00:41.880 My name is Fred Arnison and I'm a comedian. Are 8 00:00:41.920 --> 00:00:42.399 you a big. 9 00:00:43.759 --> 00:00:45.719 Uh no looking podcasting? 10 00:00:45.759 --> 00:00:46.960 What a ship name that is? 11 00:00:48.280 --> 00:00:51.960 This story will change the way you think about podcasts. 12 00:00:52.320 --> 00:00:54.320 Morning, everybody. It's Adam Curry here. 13 00:00:54.159 --> 00:00:56.359 With you and Adam Curry from MTV. 14 00:00:56.920 --> 00:00:59.840 The technology of podcasting was invented in two thousand. 15 00:01:00.039 --> 00:01:03.520 It's really simple syndication. Before anyone was podcasting, before there 16 00:01:03.520 --> 00:01:05.439 was an iPod, I got a call from app. 17 00:01:05.560 --> 00:01:07.959 Here's an Adam Curry is one of the guys that 18 00:01:08.040 --> 00:01:09.120 invented podcasting. 19 00:01:09.239 --> 00:01:10.920 Steve wants to meet with you and he says, I 20 00:01:10.959 --> 00:01:12.760 want to put podcasting into iTunes. 21 00:01:12.840 --> 00:01:13.359 Is that okay? 22 00:01:13.560 --> 00:01:15.079 I'm like, yeah. 23 00:01:15.280 --> 00:01:21.439 Long before you know television, film, radio, the printed word, 24 00:01:21.760 --> 00:01:23.719 we've been communicating with each other in sound. 25 00:01:24.400 --> 00:01:27.400 When you make a radio documentary or you make a podcast, 26 00:01:27.599 --> 00:01:29.040 I feel like we're playing with fire. 27 00:01:29.359 --> 00:01:30.840 It's elemental to who we are. 28 00:01:31.120 --> 00:01:34.359 I'm a podcast host and this is a film about 29 00:01:34.400 --> 00:01:35.599 audio storytelling. 30 00:01:36.599 --> 00:01:39.640 I know that the world is waiting to find out how. 31 00:01:39.519 --> 00:01:40.120 Cool this is. 32 00:01:40.400 --> 00:01:43.040 Thirty eight percent of the US population twelve plus listen 33 00:01:43.079 --> 00:01:44.439 to a podcast in the last month. 34 00:01:44.680 --> 00:01:46.680 That ain't nothing right, that's bigger than Twitter. 35 00:01:47.359 --> 00:01:50.040 But there have been some growing pains. 36 00:01:50.319 --> 00:01:52.599 The podcast is moving to Spotify. 37 00:01:52.799 --> 00:01:55.159 When a company with money is interested in you, they're 38 00:01:55.159 --> 00:01:57.439 not interested in you, and they're not even interested in 39 00:01:57.519 --> 00:02:01.040 what you create. They're interested in your audience, and you 40 00:02:01.040 --> 00:02:02.879 can sell that audience exactly once. 41 00:02:03.680 --> 00:02:05.560 That's when things got complicated. 42 00:02:05.840 --> 00:02:08.159 Business has finally found what's going on with our little 43 00:02:08.199 --> 00:02:08.840 secret world. 44 00:02:09.120 --> 00:02:12.120 I hope that well the money floods the space that 45 00:02:12.199 --> 00:02:15.159 the integrity of the medium is able to stay. 46 00:02:15.560 --> 00:02:19.960 It's really hard to keep humanity at the center of 47 00:02:20.000 --> 00:02:21.240 everything when you scale. 48 00:02:21.280 --> 00:02:23.120 I feel like we've been in a bit of a 49 00:02:23.159 --> 00:02:24.599 wild podcast bubble. 50 00:02:24.759 --> 00:02:26.439 I think the bubble is hopping. 51 00:02:26.520 --> 00:02:31.439 Yeah, how companies fund shows are de risking. 52 00:02:31.599 --> 00:02:35.719 I think podcasting is the medium. It's sitting around a 53 00:02:35.759 --> 00:02:36.800 fire telling stories. 54 00:02:37.319 --> 00:02:38.400 It's what we've always done. 55 00:02:38.639 --> 00:02:40.680 And the thing that was magical to me is that 56 00:02:40.719 --> 00:02:45.800 with a voice and nothing else, you can create anything. 57 00:02:54.280 --> 00:02:59.319 For more information, go to aoamovie dot com podcasts. All right, 58 00:03:02.599 --> 00:03:04.960 welcome to the Projection Booth. I'm your host. Mike White 59 00:03:05.039 --> 00:03:06.960 joined me once again as mister Chris Tashue. 60 00:03:07.599 --> 00:03:09.400 You guys like to talk about movies. 61 00:03:09.759 --> 00:03:11.840 Also joining us all the way from the pod News 62 00:03:11.919 --> 00:03:14.039 daily newsletter is mister James Gridlin. 63 00:03:14.840 --> 00:03:16.240 Hey, thank you so much for asking. 64 00:03:16.719 --> 00:03:18.919 On this special episode of the Projection Booth. We are 65 00:03:18.960 --> 00:03:22.080 looking at the twenty twenty five documentary from director Jewn 66 00:03:22.120 --> 00:03:25.759 Michael Cologne Age of Audio. The film is narrated by 67 00:03:25.840 --> 00:03:29.840 and stars Ronald Big Ron Young Junior, the host of 68 00:03:29.960 --> 00:03:33.680 numerous award winning podcasts, who talks us through his story 69 00:03:33.919 --> 00:03:36.479 as well as the history up to now of the 70 00:03:36.520 --> 00:03:39.719 medium of podcasting. Quite a big task for an eighty 71 00:03:39.759 --> 00:03:42.919 two minute film. We will be spoiling this movie as 72 00:03:43.039 --> 00:03:45.240 much as we can, so if you don't want anything ruined, 73 00:03:45.439 --> 00:03:47.560 turn off the podcast and come back after you've seen 74 00:03:47.599 --> 00:03:50.719 the film and experience the entire history of podcasting. We 75 00:03:50.840 --> 00:03:53.520 will still be here. So, Chris, I want to start 76 00:03:53.520 --> 00:03:56.000 with a question about how you came to know about 77 00:03:56.080 --> 00:03:58.759 podcasts and how you decided to start making one. 78 00:03:59.479 --> 00:04:01.319 I'll keep that to the five minute answer. 79 00:04:01.560 --> 00:04:04.240 The Earth formed, then it cooled. 80 00:04:05.960 --> 00:04:07.439 Fish then crawled out of lakes. 81 00:04:07.560 --> 00:04:09.919 No, I can actually tell you the first podcast I 82 00:04:09.919 --> 00:04:14.240 remember listening to was in two thousand and probably six 83 00:04:14.639 --> 00:04:15.479 with Film. 84 00:04:15.199 --> 00:04:17.000 Spotting, and that was the first time I'd ever heard 85 00:04:17.040 --> 00:04:17.560 a podcast. 86 00:04:17.759 --> 00:04:20.639 And I mean, that's kind of I guess maybe not 87 00:04:20.720 --> 00:04:22.600 so much anymore. That used to be like the standard 88 00:04:22.639 --> 00:04:24.879 bearer for movie podcast. Now I would say it's the 89 00:04:24.879 --> 00:04:26.920 Projection Booth podcast with Mike White oof. 90 00:04:27.279 --> 00:04:30.920 Oh wow, wow, shameless self promotion everybody. 91 00:04:33.600 --> 00:04:35.399 But that was kind of the first movie podcast or 92 00:04:35.439 --> 00:04:39.519 first podcast I had ever ever heard. And I didn't 93 00:04:39.519 --> 00:04:44.240 get into podcasting proper until two thousand and fourteen. So 94 00:04:44.319 --> 00:04:49.279 about eight years later, I had started a movie review 95 00:04:49.360 --> 00:04:51.600 website on my own because I was just looking for 96 00:04:51.639 --> 00:04:54.600 something to do in the month of October, and a 97 00:04:54.639 --> 00:04:56.199 friend of mine reached out to me. It was like, hey, 98 00:04:56.279 --> 00:05:00.879 you should do a podcast, and that that is kind 99 00:05:00.879 --> 00:05:03.759 of what it feels like. I've had one, two, three 100 00:05:03.800 --> 00:05:06.079 different co hosts. The person who helped me start the 101 00:05:06.120 --> 00:05:08.560 show I haven't talked to in almost a decade, you know, 102 00:05:08.680 --> 00:05:10.319 And that's just you know, it's part of this, it's 103 00:05:10.360 --> 00:05:12.959 part of the journey of podcasting. Nothing is ever static, 104 00:05:13.000 --> 00:05:15.920 and if things are static for too long, you might 105 00:05:15.959 --> 00:05:18.519 becoming complacent, which is kind of a thing that I'm 106 00:05:18.519 --> 00:05:21.040 struggling with right now as somebod who's been podcasting for 107 00:05:21.160 --> 00:05:22.439 going on eleven years now. 108 00:05:22.560 --> 00:05:25.240 Yikes, that's horrifying. I mean, there's not much to it. 109 00:05:25.319 --> 00:05:27.759 I mean, the documentary makes it pretty clear, like if 110 00:05:27.800 --> 00:05:29.439 you want to do it in this day and age, 111 00:05:29.439 --> 00:05:31.680 you can just do it. So ain no pomp and 112 00:05:31.759 --> 00:05:34.759 circumstance here, you know, other than just liking movies and 113 00:05:35.360 --> 00:05:37.519 wanting to talk about movies with my friends. 114 00:05:37.759 --> 00:05:39.560 And that's kind of what this ended up. 115 00:05:39.439 --> 00:05:42.160 Being, because there are no other types of podcasts other 116 00:05:42.240 --> 00:05:43.480 than movie podcasts. 117 00:05:44.160 --> 00:05:46.079 I mean, as far as anyone who listens to the 118 00:05:46.120 --> 00:05:49.519 things we make might be concerned, there would be nothing else. 119 00:05:49.800 --> 00:05:51.399 That's not true. I mean I've done other stuff. 120 00:05:51.399 --> 00:05:53.560 I did a paranormal podcast for a while that was 121 00:05:53.720 --> 00:05:57.959 pretty successful actually, But the movie podcast is kind of 122 00:05:57.959 --> 00:06:01.160 what I've gravitated back towards this whole, so can't get 123 00:06:01.199 --> 00:06:01.720 away from it. 124 00:06:01.800 --> 00:06:04.839 Movies are just too intrinsically linked to who I am. 125 00:06:04.879 --> 00:06:07.720 But yeah, they don't mention that at all in this documentary, 126 00:06:07.839 --> 00:06:12.600 so don't worry about it, folks, and James, howbout yourself. 127 00:06:13.480 --> 00:06:16.839 I first got involved with podcasting in two thousand and five, 128 00:06:17.879 --> 00:06:19.439 a long long time ago. I was working for a 129 00:06:19.519 --> 00:06:22.879 radio station and I saw that podcasting was the thing, 130 00:06:23.040 --> 00:06:26.120 and so I turned our breakfast show into a podcast, 131 00:06:26.160 --> 00:06:28.120 and it was doing I think at one point it 132 00:06:28.160 --> 00:06:32.639 was doing somewhere in the region of fifteen thousand downloads 133 00:06:32.639 --> 00:06:36.399 and episodes. It was doing really well. She is astonishing 134 00:06:36.439 --> 00:06:39.920 these days. I started writing pod News, which is a 135 00:06:39.959 --> 00:06:44.040 newsletter all about podcasting, in twenty seventeen, and have written 136 00:06:44.040 --> 00:06:49.560 it every day since. So, yeah, I should say two things. Firstly, 137 00:06:49.720 --> 00:06:53.399 I'm in this movie. I hope you noticed my excellent 138 00:06:53.439 --> 00:06:58.360 cameo for three seconds. But also, secondly, I do not 139 00:06:58.519 --> 00:07:03.399 watch movies. So I used to joke that the last 140 00:07:03.480 --> 00:07:07.720 movie that I ever saw was Superman three. That may 141 00:07:07.759 --> 00:07:10.519 not be entirely true, but it's nearly true. And so 142 00:07:10.720 --> 00:07:12.680 I was there and I was thinking, I should go 143 00:07:12.759 --> 00:07:15.680 and listen to an episode of this show to make 144 00:07:15.720 --> 00:07:18.040 sure that I understand how this show works. And so 145 00:07:18.120 --> 00:07:22.519 I went through your more than one thousand episodes desperately 146 00:07:22.519 --> 00:07:24.680 trying to find a movie that I had actually seen. 147 00:07:24.879 --> 00:07:27.040 I hit on Day of the Jackal, which is two 148 00:07:27.040 --> 00:07:29.439 and a half years ago. But nevertheless, it was a 149 00:07:30.839 --> 00:07:34.560 good show. So yeah, So if you're expecting movie critique 150 00:07:34.560 --> 00:07:36.759 from me, you are going to be sadly mistaken. 151 00:07:37.240 --> 00:07:39.439 I'm not sure there's any movie critique to be had 152 00:07:39.480 --> 00:07:42.240 with this movie, Like it's a documentary. I mean, I 153 00:07:42.319 --> 00:07:44.399 was under the impression this conversation was going to be 154 00:07:44.439 --> 00:07:48.360 more about podcasting. I don't know, like it's weird to 155 00:07:48.399 --> 00:07:51.920 watch a movie about podcasting. James, you mentioned you were 156 00:07:51.959 --> 00:07:54.439 in the movie. I was at that Amby's where he 157 00:07:54.519 --> 00:07:57.519 won all of his awards. I was sitting in that 158 00:07:57.639 --> 00:08:01.199 room because that was last year in Los Angeles. Tracy 159 00:08:01.240 --> 00:08:03.920 Mattel was there, so yeah, I was in that room. 160 00:08:03.959 --> 00:08:05.800 I remember him winning all of his awards and him 161 00:08:05.800 --> 00:08:08.480 coming back up like it was like four. 162 00:08:08.240 --> 00:08:10.399 Times, I think, something to that effect, to the point. 163 00:08:10.560 --> 00:08:12.600 I mean they show it in the documentary where he 164 00:08:12.639 --> 00:08:15.279 comes back up a couple times. But that was pretty 165 00:08:15.279 --> 00:08:16.600 crazy because I was like, oh my god, are they're 166 00:08:16.600 --> 00:08:18.759 going to be at the Abies in Los Angeles last year? 167 00:08:18.839 --> 00:08:21.720 Yes, And in fact they are like, Okay, did you 168 00:08:21.759 --> 00:08:22.600 watch this movie? 169 00:08:23.360 --> 00:08:24.959 No, yes, I do, of course I. 170 00:08:25.000 --> 00:08:27.959 Did before too, on a thing we've co hosted before. 171 00:08:28.040 --> 00:08:32.919 So I saw it on the big screen indeed, or 172 00:08:33.039 --> 00:08:36.399 the big screen in my front room. So yes, absolutely. 173 00:08:37.519 --> 00:08:39.440 Sean even says that you were supposed to be in 174 00:08:39.480 --> 00:08:40.519 this film at some point. 175 00:08:41.039 --> 00:08:41.320 I was. 176 00:08:41.360 --> 00:08:44.399 If you listened very carefully. Just before the Ambies sequence, 177 00:08:44.960 --> 00:08:48.519 they clips a bit of the pod News Daily podcast, 178 00:08:48.519 --> 00:08:51.159 which I also do, so yeah, so you get to 179 00:08:51.159 --> 00:08:54.720 hear my exciting English accent in the middle of that 180 00:08:55.120 --> 00:08:58.480 for about three minutes. I've noticed I'm not in the credits, 181 00:08:58.840 --> 00:09:01.840 and all the way through there's lots of clips of 182 00:09:01.960 --> 00:09:05.279 you know, this happened, and then there's a screenshot of 183 00:09:05.320 --> 00:09:07.519 the Hollywood Reporter, and then this happened, and there's a 184 00:09:07.519 --> 00:09:09.960 screenshot of Bloomberg, and I was there, going, there must 185 00:09:10.000 --> 00:09:11.919 be a screenshot of pod News, right, there must be 186 00:09:11.960 --> 00:09:15.720 a screenshot of Oh, there isn't a best Last movie. 187 00:09:15.720 --> 00:09:17.840 You would think there would be, but there is. 188 00:09:18.159 --> 00:09:21.360 In the entire podcast movie. But still there we are. 189 00:09:21.919 --> 00:09:24.320 So yeah, but it was. It was a great watch, 190 00:09:24.399 --> 00:09:28.120 and I mean, I know a number of the people there, 191 00:09:28.240 --> 00:09:30.960 I think, so I think the first thing that I 192 00:09:31.120 --> 00:09:34.759 noticed in the in the movie is that it is 193 00:09:34.879 --> 00:09:38.639 clearly a movie that was recorded at two totally different times. 194 00:09:39.159 --> 00:09:42.519 So quite a lot of people look weirdly six or 195 00:09:42.559 --> 00:09:44.960 seven years younger than they really are, you know, so 196 00:09:45.120 --> 00:09:48.600 very clearly this movie was filmed and shot in twenty 197 00:09:48.679 --> 00:09:52.519 nineteen and then again in twenty twenty three, twenty four, 198 00:09:53.360 --> 00:09:55.480 And so you've got this sort of a slightly odd 199 00:09:55.559 --> 00:09:58.360 juxtaposition of you know, Adam Curry, for example, and Dave 200 00:09:58.399 --> 00:10:02.360 Winer clearly interviewed a while ago, Tom Webster clearly interviewed 201 00:10:02.360 --> 00:10:04.639 a while ago. And I think you know that that's 202 00:10:04.679 --> 00:10:08.039 the sort of the thing that I guess I would 203 00:10:08.039 --> 00:10:10.840 only notice given that I'm in the industry, But it 204 00:10:10.879 --> 00:10:12.320 was it was an interesting watch. 205 00:10:13.039 --> 00:10:15.279 Well, you probably recognized a lot more people than I 206 00:10:15.360 --> 00:10:20.039 recognized that. Even when I was talking with Sean, he 207 00:10:20.320 --> 00:10:23.879 was really impressed with Roman Mars, and I was just like, 208 00:10:24.000 --> 00:10:25.360 I don't know who that is. 209 00:10:27.159 --> 00:10:31.840 You've never listened to one hundred percent one hundred percent invisible, No, no, 210 00:10:31.879 --> 00:10:33.000 I I can't believe it. 211 00:10:33.039 --> 00:10:35.679 I've never listened to an episode of Cereal either though 212 00:10:35.720 --> 00:10:36.039 I know. 213 00:10:37.200 --> 00:10:41.320 Also ways I know, and also and also by the way, 214 00:10:41.360 --> 00:10:43.919 it's ninety nine percent invisible. It's it's not one hundred 215 00:10:43.919 --> 00:10:45.960 percent invisible. So that just goes to show how often 216 00:10:46.000 --> 00:10:48.559 I listened to it as well. Now I was watching 217 00:10:48.559 --> 00:10:50.919 this and going, oh, look there's Julie, Oh look there's 218 00:10:50.919 --> 00:10:53.320 Adam and and all the people who I know well. 219 00:10:53.399 --> 00:10:54.879 And then there are a couple of people in there, 220 00:10:54.919 --> 00:10:56.720 and I was thinking, why have you been put in 221 00:10:56.720 --> 00:11:00.799 this movie? Which is always the way, But it was nice. 222 00:11:01.240 --> 00:11:04.159 I liked the Act one is all about the origin 223 00:11:04.320 --> 00:11:05.360 of podcasting. 224 00:11:06.440 --> 00:11:06.840 It's not. 225 00:11:07.240 --> 00:11:09.720 The history of podcasting is a bit of a contentious 226 00:11:09.919 --> 00:11:16.480 and this follows the relatively standard history, which is that 227 00:11:16.559 --> 00:11:19.679 Adam Curry and Dave Weiner invented it, and they may 228 00:11:19.720 --> 00:11:24.480 have invented the technology, but actually the first podcaster was 229 00:11:25.120 --> 00:11:29.600 Robin Williams, the comedian. He was doing podcasts. He was 230 00:11:29.639 --> 00:11:34.080 recording interviews with guests in his house and then putting 231 00:11:34.080 --> 00:11:36.679 them out on Audible onto the Audible player, which you 232 00:11:36.679 --> 00:11:39.039 could then download and have a listen to while you're 233 00:11:39.080 --> 00:11:42.399 walking the dog in the year two thousand. So actually 234 00:11:42.399 --> 00:11:45.399 it's a little bit more complicated, but it probably needs 235 00:11:45.440 --> 00:11:48.679 to be, you know, a relatively simple story for the film. 236 00:11:48.759 --> 00:11:51.080 But it was, you know, it was nice to see, 237 00:11:51.919 --> 00:11:55.360 nice to see Dave. Nice to see Adam the conversation, 238 00:11:55.720 --> 00:11:58.120 I think, you know, I rather liked the bit where 239 00:11:58.720 --> 00:12:01.240 Adam is telling a story of Steve Jobs and you 240 00:12:01.440 --> 00:12:06.080 see Steve Jobs. It's not but you see him miming 241 00:12:06.159 --> 00:12:09.240 to the words that Adam is saying. And I thought 242 00:12:09.240 --> 00:12:12.480 that that was a very clever I'm sure that's on 243 00:12:12.519 --> 00:12:15.120 all the time in movies these days, and I've not 244 00:12:15.240 --> 00:12:17.240 seen it, but I thought that that was a very 245 00:12:17.240 --> 00:12:20.360 clever tool to help tell a particular story. 246 00:12:20.519 --> 00:12:24.360 It's very drunk history in that way, the whole mouthing, 247 00:12:24.440 --> 00:12:27.000 the thing that the person is telling us the story. 248 00:12:27.159 --> 00:12:29.080 But they don't think that the person telling the story 249 00:12:29.159 --> 00:12:30.960 was drunk. In fact, I don't think anybody in this 250 00:12:31.039 --> 00:12:32.519 movie is drunk, even Joe Rogan. 251 00:12:32.759 --> 00:12:34.720 Yeah, where is Joe Rogan and all those They couldn't 252 00:12:34.720 --> 00:12:36.879 get old Joe to sit down for five minutes? 253 00:12:37.759 --> 00:12:39.320 Well, they use a lot of clips of them, that's 254 00:12:39.360 --> 00:12:39.799 for sure. 255 00:12:40.120 --> 00:12:42.360 You're going to have to given the proliferation of Joe 256 00:12:42.399 --> 00:12:46.080 Rogan's podcast. How could you not It's impossible to not 257 00:12:46.200 --> 00:12:48.360 mention Joe Rogan, you know. 258 00:12:48.440 --> 00:12:53.879 Watching Leo there, Leo very famously doesn't get on with 259 00:12:53.879 --> 00:12:57.240 Adam curry at all, and it was very entertaining. First 260 00:12:57.240 --> 00:12:59.919 a few minutes of Leo Laporte saying, ah, you know 261 00:13:00.120 --> 00:13:04.559 the MTV guy. I was thinking, oh, wow, okay, here 262 00:13:04.600 --> 00:13:07.360 we go. No, but it was, it was. It was 263 00:13:07.399 --> 00:13:10.919 a nicely told history. It's a little bit heavy on 264 00:13:10.919 --> 00:13:12.759 the apple stuff. It's a little bit heavy on the 265 00:13:12.799 --> 00:13:16.799 Ben Hammersley stuff. Ben may have coined the word, but 266 00:13:16.879 --> 00:13:19.960 he didn't really get it into the public usage. As 267 00:13:19.960 --> 00:13:22.759 an overview of the history, I think it was quite 268 00:13:22.759 --> 00:13:24.399 a good yeah, quite a good watch. 269 00:13:25.159 --> 00:13:25.360 Yeah. 270 00:13:25.360 --> 00:13:27.600 It's very interesting that they set this up as a 271 00:13:27.639 --> 00:13:30.200 podcast episode, and it didn't really click for me. The 272 00:13:30.240 --> 00:13:32.840 first time I watched this, I was a little overwhelmed 273 00:13:33.039 --> 00:13:36.000 just with all of the information coming at me. And 274 00:13:36.039 --> 00:13:38.879 there's a moment in the film where it feels like 275 00:13:38.919 --> 00:13:41.960 they just make this huge jump and I think it's 276 00:13:42.039 --> 00:13:45.000 kind of a like a sidebar or like a you know, 277 00:13:45.799 --> 00:13:47.759 a little bit of a tangent and then they come back. 278 00:13:47.919 --> 00:13:50.759 But when they make this one leap and I'm trying 279 00:13:50.799 --> 00:13:52.879 to remember exactly where that is, I'll have to look 280 00:13:52.879 --> 00:13:56.399 at my notes, I'm just like, whoa, what just happened? 281 00:13:56.720 --> 00:13:59.039 Like we just jumped like ten years, and I think 282 00:13:59.080 --> 00:14:01.480 it's that thing that you're talking about. As far as 283 00:14:01.519 --> 00:14:04.440 the marriage of the newer footage plus the older footage, 284 00:14:04.720 --> 00:14:07.919 some of it jives pretty well. Using big Ron as 285 00:14:08.000 --> 00:14:12.080 our narrator is pretty interesting and having him walk us 286 00:14:12.080 --> 00:14:15.720 through this whole history. But sometimes that marriage doesn't necessarily 287 00:14:16.720 --> 00:14:19.879 gel as much as I think it should. But I 288 00:14:19.919 --> 00:14:23.799 think overall it is a clever use of him as 289 00:14:23.879 --> 00:14:27.120 our host and walking us through this and really letting 290 00:14:27.200 --> 00:14:31.240 us have one person. I was calling him a narrator, 291 00:14:31.279 --> 00:14:33.679 whereas Sean is very much No, he's more of a 292 00:14:33.720 --> 00:14:36.360 podcast host. He's the host of this film. Even does 293 00:14:36.399 --> 00:14:39.399 an ad read, even does his Patreon drop all those 294 00:14:39.480 --> 00:14:42.000 kind of things. We even yeah, we have a live 295 00:14:42.159 --> 00:14:44.399 ad read in the middle of this film for Square Space, 296 00:14:44.639 --> 00:14:47.639 which you know. I was impressed by that, though I 297 00:14:47.759 --> 00:14:53.879 think that Casper Mattresses probably should have done better help 298 00:14:53.960 --> 00:14:56.000 dot com me on these That's another one. 299 00:14:56.320 --> 00:14:58.679 Jesus, they are and they are. 300 00:14:58.720 --> 00:15:01.120 They do not have a good repute either, which is 301 00:15:01.159 --> 00:15:04.840 not great. That's why I was square Space because Square 302 00:15:04.879 --> 00:15:06.720 Space is rather inoffensive as it. 303 00:15:06.679 --> 00:15:10.679 Were, surely manscaped, Surely that's under. 304 00:15:10.559 --> 00:15:14.639 Groom or whatever the hell Their product is called I 305 00:15:14.639 --> 00:15:15.600 think is what it's called. 306 00:15:16.480 --> 00:15:19.039 I mean, luckily I'm familiar with This American Life because 307 00:15:19.120 --> 00:15:22.000 this feels very much like and I think they even 308 00:15:22.080 --> 00:15:24.919 call act To a love letter to This American Life, 309 00:15:24.960 --> 00:15:29.120 because they really go into that. And I only knew 310 00:15:29.159 --> 00:15:31.679 of them as a radio show. I didn't even know 311 00:15:31.759 --> 00:15:34.480 that they had a podcast for a long time. You 312 00:15:34.559 --> 00:15:37.120 gotta love Ira Glass and what he's brought to the game. 313 00:15:37.799 --> 00:15:40.559 I think he really helped shepherd some of these other 314 00:15:40.600 --> 00:15:44.480 things like Cereal and my God, once Cereal took off. 315 00:15:44.679 --> 00:15:48.720 I know that true crime podcasts existed before that, but 316 00:15:49.080 --> 00:15:52.120 it just felt like true crime podcasts took over the 317 00:15:52.200 --> 00:15:54.120 industry for a long time after that. 318 00:15:55.240 --> 00:15:58.639 This American Life is interesting. This is definitely the US 319 00:15:58.720 --> 00:16:00.320 history of podcast. 320 00:16:00.159 --> 00:16:01.840 Thank you also for mentioning met Chief. 321 00:16:02.559 --> 00:16:05.440 There's no European stuff in there. There's no Australian stuff 322 00:16:05.440 --> 00:16:08.840 in there or anything else. And This American Life is 323 00:16:08.960 --> 00:16:12.039 one of those shows that has clearly influenced an awful 324 00:16:12.080 --> 00:16:14.799 lot of people, and people have made, you know, relatively 325 00:16:14.799 --> 00:16:18.399 poor copies of it. You can tell how old the 326 00:16:18.519 --> 00:16:23.240 Ira Glass clips are because he is clean shaven. He 327 00:16:23.320 --> 00:16:26.960 isn't clean shaven anymore. You can very clearly see that, 328 00:16:27.120 --> 00:16:30.080 you know, this American life has that whole you know, 329 00:16:30.159 --> 00:16:34.519 focus on radio storytelling in the US. I mean, one 330 00:16:34.519 --> 00:16:37.759 of the points that was made in it, which I 331 00:16:37.799 --> 00:16:40.679 thought was really interesting, is that there is a different 332 00:16:40.720 --> 00:16:44.519 ethos if you're a public radio maker. There is a 333 00:16:44.559 --> 00:16:48.639 different ethos. You are there to make something, to make 334 00:16:48.679 --> 00:16:53.399 something of high quality, to do something great for your audience, 335 00:16:53.639 --> 00:16:58.639 whereas the majority of podcasters, the majority of other podcasters frankly, 336 00:16:58.720 --> 00:17:01.919 are there to make money. And there is a different 337 00:17:02.480 --> 00:17:06.079 sort of thing that you bring to podcasting if you 338 00:17:06.200 --> 00:17:12.119 come from the rather stayed you know, dull US podcast 339 00:17:12.559 --> 00:17:16.680 US public radio industry, you bring a different thing to 340 00:17:16.759 --> 00:17:21.799 podcasting than you do if you are a more commercial podcaster. 341 00:17:21.960 --> 00:17:24.960 And I thought that that was an interesting point that 342 00:17:25.119 --> 00:17:28.160 was amplified all the way through this particular thing, because 343 00:17:28.240 --> 00:17:32.440 you know, it just made that difference quite clear, I think. 344 00:17:33.279 --> 00:17:35.440 Well, and you can also tell the age of the 345 00:17:35.920 --> 00:17:39.480 documentary because China and India are like the biggest podcast 346 00:17:40.640 --> 00:17:44.200 markets now like for most like in terms of commercial 347 00:17:44.279 --> 00:17:46.519 like that's where a lot of the listeners are that 348 00:17:46.519 --> 00:17:48.880 doesn't even get mentioned in this at all, Like at 349 00:17:48.920 --> 00:17:51.880 all and I understand why. I mean, James to your point, like, 350 00:17:52.119 --> 00:17:54.160 is this being made for people that are podcasters? This 351 00:17:54.559 --> 00:17:57.519 being made for people that want to podcast? Is this 352 00:17:57.680 --> 00:18:00.240 being made for people that want to understand? I don't 353 00:18:00.279 --> 00:18:03.599 understandho it's being made for. And I think that's both 354 00:18:03.599 --> 00:18:05.920 a good thing and a bad thing, because at times 355 00:18:06.000 --> 00:18:10.119 I feel like the film is like grossly unfocused, because yes, 356 00:18:10.160 --> 00:18:13.000 I understand that there's a history of podcasting, but if 357 00:18:13.000 --> 00:18:15.200 a podcaster is watching this movie, I'm not sure I 358 00:18:15.240 --> 00:18:19.119 need to learn that I know the like James already 359 00:18:19.119 --> 00:18:21.200 mentioned the basic tenets of what I need to know, 360 00:18:21.319 --> 00:18:23.880 But at the same time, it leaves a lot of 361 00:18:23.880 --> 00:18:26.640 stuff out that feels important and focuses on things that 362 00:18:27.279 --> 00:18:30.160 it's not that it's not important, but those are like 363 00:18:30.440 --> 00:18:33.279 very I wouldn't say myopic, but kind of like laser 364 00:18:33.319 --> 00:18:37.400 focused specific things like this wasn't about podcasting holistically. This 365 00:18:37.480 --> 00:18:41.279 is more about like specific avenues in podcasting that I 366 00:18:41.279 --> 00:18:43.400 mean again, like you've heard of like you've heard of Cereal, 367 00:18:43.480 --> 00:18:45.720 like I think most people have heard of Cereal, like 368 00:18:46.039 --> 00:18:48.200 or you know this American life, Like those things are 369 00:18:48.680 --> 00:18:51.240 mainstream enough or definitely Joe Rogan at this point. But 370 00:18:51.720 --> 00:18:53.319 there there doesn't seem to be like a lot of 371 00:18:53.319 --> 00:18:56.880 information or intent beyond just kind of giving us like 372 00:18:56.920 --> 00:19:00.240 the most surface level maybe going a little bit rather 373 00:19:00.240 --> 00:19:03.559 than a Wikipedia article into the history of podcasting. 374 00:19:04.039 --> 00:19:06.599 What story is it trying to tell? I mean, clearly 375 00:19:06.640 --> 00:19:09.759 it's trying to tell Big Ron's story. But Big Ron's 376 00:19:09.799 --> 00:19:14.160 story ends with him winning lots of awards but not 377 00:19:14.240 --> 00:19:18.440 necessarily getting the money that he is expecting out of it. 378 00:19:18.960 --> 00:19:21.000 That doesn't appear to be an awful lot of story. 379 00:19:21.000 --> 00:19:23.480 Aren't there other than Big Ron winning a ton of 380 00:19:23.519 --> 00:19:27.400 awards and that's great. You know, it's an interesting thing. 381 00:19:27.519 --> 00:19:32.880 I think the conversation is supposed to be. Podcasting starts, 382 00:19:33.240 --> 00:19:36.319 it's very small, then all of a sudden public radio 383 00:19:36.359 --> 00:19:38.839 gets involved, then all of a sudden everybody makes their money, 384 00:19:38.839 --> 00:19:40.960 and then all of a sudden, everybody goes broke. And 385 00:19:41.200 --> 00:19:43.200 it's not it's not quite as simple as that. 386 00:19:44.119 --> 00:19:45.799 We're still podcasting right now. 387 00:19:45.920 --> 00:19:48.759 Like they mention a thing in there that I know 388 00:19:48.799 --> 00:19:52.400 we've all talked about privately or in you know, in 389 00:19:52.440 --> 00:19:55.079 our own private circles, but the celebrity of it all, 390 00:19:55.160 --> 00:19:57.519 like you'll notice, there's not a lot of that. In 391 00:19:57.559 --> 00:19:59.759 the movie, they talk about it, but they don't really 392 00:19:59.799 --> 00:20:02.119 tell about it. They're just kind of like, well, you know, 393 00:20:02.200 --> 00:20:04.759 celebrities got involved and that's where the money came from, 394 00:20:04.759 --> 00:20:06.359 and then the celebrity is fucked off and then the 395 00:20:06.400 --> 00:20:09.759 money left. It's like, that's not actually how it fucking happened. 396 00:20:10.039 --> 00:20:12.880 The celebrities are still here now, they have not left. 397 00:20:12.960 --> 00:20:15.799 They're not going to leave because that money is there, 398 00:20:15.920 --> 00:20:18.720 like they know that. At the end of the movie, 399 00:20:18.759 --> 00:20:20.119 I was like, are you trying to convince people to 400 00:20:20.119 --> 00:20:22.559 get into podcasting by saying that there's room in the space, 401 00:20:22.559 --> 00:20:24.440 because there's always been room in the space. I want 402 00:20:24.440 --> 00:20:27.799 to say that there's I don't know how many podcasts 403 00:20:27.839 --> 00:20:31.920 at this point, but it's in the multi millions. I 404 00:20:31.920 --> 00:20:35.599 would assume like that the money was never here, like 405 00:20:35.839 --> 00:20:38.319 Big Ron found that out, Like we all found that out, 406 00:20:38.359 --> 00:20:40.599 We got our own pod, we start our own podcast networks. 407 00:20:40.720 --> 00:20:43.680 Like the money just magically started flowing in, like. 408 00:20:45.480 --> 00:20:47.759 Give me, I'll give them out wigs. 409 00:20:50.799 --> 00:20:52.680 There is a ton of money in the industry, but 410 00:20:52.759 --> 00:20:54.960 the ton of money is concentrated on the big shows, 411 00:20:55.240 --> 00:20:57.960 and once you're out of the top fifty to one 412 00:20:58.039 --> 00:21:00.759 hundred shows, which is where all of the money goes to. 413 00:21:01.279 --> 00:21:05.319 I've been claiming a number with absolutely no thinking behind it, 414 00:21:05.400 --> 00:21:08.400 but I've been claiming a number that ninety five percent 415 00:21:08.480 --> 00:21:12.240 of all podcasts out there don't earn money. It's the 416 00:21:12.559 --> 00:21:15.480 five percent who does. Yeah, And most people say, yeah, 417 00:21:15.519 --> 00:21:18.240 that sounds about right. I've got no, you know, no 418 00:21:18.359 --> 00:21:20.200 research to back that up, but I think that that's 419 00:21:20.279 --> 00:21:24.240 probably fair. So, you know, and looking, you know, I mean, 420 00:21:24.279 --> 00:21:27.240 we're recording on a day where another part of the 421 00:21:27.240 --> 00:21:31.240 gold rush has just killed itself in terms of wondery. 422 00:21:31.319 --> 00:21:34.799 The big purchase from Amazon has just been announced that 423 00:21:35.039 --> 00:21:38.200 is closing. Amazon bought that for three hundred and something 424 00:21:38.400 --> 00:21:41.279 million dollars, and all of a sudden they've gone, yeah, 425 00:21:41.480 --> 00:21:43.640 you know what, Yeah, we're just going to close that now. 426 00:21:44.000 --> 00:21:46.039 But I think quite a lot of this is the 427 00:21:46.079 --> 00:21:51.839 reset of greedy time in podcasting, where all of a sudden, 428 00:21:51.839 --> 00:21:54.079 we had nothing to spend our money on during the 429 00:21:54.079 --> 00:21:58.359 pandemic apart from podcast equipment and podcast stuff, and then 430 00:21:58.400 --> 00:22:01.039 all of a sudden, now we're seeing the reset of 431 00:22:01.079 --> 00:22:04.680 that happening. Afterwards, we see a bit of the reset 432 00:22:04.720 --> 00:22:07.880 of that in this show, a bit of the reset 433 00:22:07.880 --> 00:22:10.799 happening in twenty three twenty four, and we're seeing a 434 00:22:10.799 --> 00:22:12.240 bit more of that reset now. 435 00:22:12.920 --> 00:22:15.799 It feels odd that there's no mention of the whole 436 00:22:16.680 --> 00:22:20.039 Megan Markele debacle, with all of that money that was 437 00:22:20.160 --> 00:22:24.160 changing hands, and I don't even know all the details 438 00:22:24.240 --> 00:22:26.039 of that. I mean pretty much, I was just following 439 00:22:26.039 --> 00:22:30.119 the story through pod news and just hearing of, Oh, yeah, 440 00:22:30.160 --> 00:22:34.079 here's all this money, and there's no shows that are 441 00:22:34.119 --> 00:22:37.480 showing up or very few, and what the heck's going 442 00:22:37.480 --> 00:22:40.119 on with this? It just felt almost like it was 443 00:22:40.480 --> 00:22:42.680 a little bit of a money laundering scheme for a 444 00:22:42.680 --> 00:22:44.079 better Yeah. 445 00:22:44.119 --> 00:22:45.880 I mean, I don't know about that, but certainly when 446 00:22:45.920 --> 00:22:48.880 you look at Spotify, because that was originally a Spotify show, 447 00:22:48.920 --> 00:22:52.119 when you look at Spotify, basically, the TV people came 448 00:22:52.160 --> 00:22:54.920 in with their TV budgets and they assumed that they 449 00:22:55.000 --> 00:22:59.720 knew how to make great podcasts. And the secret that 450 00:22:59.799 --> 00:23:02.480 no has told the TV people is that podcasts don't 451 00:23:02.519 --> 00:23:06.599 run in seasons. Podcasts are always on. Podcasts need to 452 00:23:06.640 --> 00:23:09.640 be there every single week because a podcast is a habit. 453 00:23:09.799 --> 00:23:12.400 I have a particular podcast that I listen to when 454 00:23:12.440 --> 00:23:14.640 I'm walking the dog. I have a particular podcast so 455 00:23:14.920 --> 00:23:17.640 I listen to when I'm in the supermarket doing the shop. 456 00:23:18.279 --> 00:23:22.720 Those are all habitually driven and you don't all of 457 00:23:22.720 --> 00:23:25.599 a sudden, you know, get your way in if you 458 00:23:25.839 --> 00:23:31.160 just release eight shows as part of a new amazing series. 459 00:23:31.279 --> 00:23:34.039 It doesn't work that way. And I think that the 460 00:23:34.119 --> 00:23:38.279 TV people who came into podcasting didn't understand the difference 461 00:23:38.359 --> 00:23:41.599 between how we consume audio and how we consume a 462 00:23:41.640 --> 00:23:44.200 TV show. And we're seeing that again right now with 463 00:23:44.359 --> 00:23:47.680 a lot of people talking about making podcasting into video 464 00:23:47.759 --> 00:23:49.359 and all of this kind of stuff. 465 00:23:49.400 --> 00:23:52.720 So just why why like we can't have one, can't 466 00:23:52.759 --> 00:23:53.920 like it can't be enough? 467 00:23:54.640 --> 00:23:54.799 OK? 468 00:23:54.960 --> 00:23:55.279 What's like? 469 00:23:55.319 --> 00:23:58.559 I don't understand? And I think this, you know, and 470 00:23:58.559 --> 00:24:02.400 this is just my opinion, nobody else's opinion. It really 471 00:24:02.440 --> 00:24:04.599 bothered me that they tried to give credibility to the 472 00:24:04.640 --> 00:24:07.440 ambies because the ambis are, in my opinion, what is 473 00:24:07.480 --> 00:24:08.319 a problem here? 474 00:24:08.359 --> 00:24:09.799 Like when I was at the Aby's, I. 475 00:24:09.759 --> 00:24:12.119 Looked at how the awards were being given out, and 476 00:24:12.119 --> 00:24:14.039 the people that were nominated in every single one of 477 00:24:14.039 --> 00:24:16.920 those categories was populated with companies that did not need 478 00:24:17.400 --> 00:24:19.200 any of that publicity whatsoever. 479 00:24:19.680 --> 00:24:22.920 Bloomberg, Forbes, and you know who the fuck ever. 480 00:24:23.000 --> 00:24:25.480 And it's like, look, if you want to pretend like 481 00:24:25.519 --> 00:24:29.440 this is a gorilla industry or an industry that's grassroots 482 00:24:29.440 --> 00:24:31.599 that like you said, James, people are doing this weekly. 483 00:24:31.839 --> 00:24:34.039 There are people that do this weekly, like yourself, people 484 00:24:34.119 --> 00:24:37.880 doing things daily for the industry. It's not these kinds 485 00:24:37.880 --> 00:24:39.880 of shows that people I mean, like, people will listen 486 00:24:39.960 --> 00:24:42.279 to this show maybe, but they're not listening to it 487 00:24:42.279 --> 00:24:44.079 every week. They're not listening to it every day because 488 00:24:44.079 --> 00:24:46.039 there's not enough of it and they know that because 489 00:24:46.079 --> 00:24:48.559 that's not the point. And it's so weird because there 490 00:24:48.640 --> 00:24:51.480 was like a I think big Ron actually wins it 491 00:24:51.559 --> 00:24:54.519 in the in the in the movie the Best Indie 492 00:24:54.599 --> 00:24:58.079 Podcast or award, Like what does that even mean? 493 00:24:58.279 --> 00:24:59.480 What does that even mean? 494 00:24:59.720 --> 00:25:01.279 Yeah, what does that even mean? 495 00:25:01.319 --> 00:25:04.240 I just remember sitting in that room watching that award 496 00:25:04.319 --> 00:25:08.880 thing going I'm not nominated. Nobody I know is nominated. 497 00:25:09.039 --> 00:25:12.359 Nobody I know who knows anybody is nominated for any 498 00:25:12.400 --> 00:25:15.799 of these And we have a fairly expansive network of 499 00:25:15.880 --> 00:25:16.680 people that we know. 500 00:25:17.319 --> 00:25:18.359 How is that possible? 501 00:25:18.359 --> 00:25:20.359 And then when you see who's nominated, it's because, like 502 00:25:20.400 --> 00:25:23.200 you mentioned, James just money was just being dumped into 503 00:25:23.200 --> 00:25:25.240 this industry with wanton abandon. 504 00:25:26.160 --> 00:25:29.440 The idea behind the Ambies is very much supposed to be, 505 00:25:29.680 --> 00:25:33.680 you know, it's the Oscars, it's the big exciting thing. 506 00:25:33.759 --> 00:25:36.480 The idea is that you put that show on TV 507 00:25:37.079 --> 00:25:39.960 because it's full of people who you know, who are 508 00:25:40.000 --> 00:25:43.839 winning awards. That is a very difference. No, no, no, 509 00:25:43.880 --> 00:25:47.119 But it's a very different awards ceremony too. If you 510 00:25:47.200 --> 00:25:50.960 look at the Oscars and bear in mind my experience 511 00:25:51.079 --> 00:25:54.759 in movies, which I've already explained is not particularly exciting. 512 00:25:55.000 --> 00:25:57.839 But if you look at the Oscars, you've got the 513 00:25:57.920 --> 00:26:00.799 day before where they give all of the craft towards out, 514 00:26:01.200 --> 00:26:04.160 which never makes it to any any you know, TV 515 00:26:04.319 --> 00:26:06.200 or anything else. And then you've got the TV show 516 00:26:06.240 --> 00:26:08.440 with all of the you know, Conan and all of 517 00:26:08.480 --> 00:26:11.319 the fancy stars and everything else. And I think the 518 00:26:11.319 --> 00:26:14.359 Ambis has focused very much on the on those showbiz 519 00:26:14.400 --> 00:26:16.920 and on the glitz and on the glamour. Actually what 520 00:26:16.960 --> 00:26:18.880 we need is kind of we need the day before 521 00:26:18.920 --> 00:26:23.359 in the Oscars for podcasting as well, to actually recognize 522 00:26:23.359 --> 00:26:26.160 a lot of the people behind the microphone, a lot 523 00:26:26.160 --> 00:26:29.440 of the production work, a lot of the people that 524 00:26:29.480 --> 00:26:31.160 aren't Amy Poehler or the. 525 00:26:31.240 --> 00:26:35.279 Kelsey Brothers who want yell the podcast that's not the 526 00:26:35.279 --> 00:26:38.799 best sports podcast, Like it's a self governing body that 527 00:26:38.960 --> 00:26:41.359 gives me like goosebumps and it causes the hair on 528 00:26:41.400 --> 00:26:42.799 the back of my neck to raise, Like you're a 529 00:26:42.839 --> 00:26:46.960 self governing podcast award body. Okay, Like it's fine, like 530 00:26:47.000 --> 00:26:48.880 you said, it is the Oscars, And I feel the 531 00:26:48.920 --> 00:26:50.759 same way about the Oscars as I know a lot 532 00:26:50.759 --> 00:26:53.039 of people that watch movies do, Like, we don't think 533 00:26:53.079 --> 00:26:55.680 the oscars are the arbiter of any sort of taste 534 00:26:55.720 --> 00:26:58.039 at all. Like they're just, in a lot of ways 535 00:26:58.039 --> 00:27:01.559 the arbiter of Mike Waters. They the arbiter of mainstream 536 00:27:01.599 --> 00:27:02.319 movie culture. 537 00:27:02.599 --> 00:27:04.839 But it's a popularity contest mostly. 538 00:27:04.720 --> 00:27:06.759 Right, And the Ambies felt the exact same way. 539 00:27:06.799 --> 00:27:09.359 It's like the Kelsey Brothers, Well, wasn't Taylor Swift in 540 00:27:09.400 --> 00:27:11.559 the news for like the entire year she was, so 541 00:27:12.400 --> 00:27:14.440 you know one of them was involved. I don't know, 542 00:27:14.559 --> 00:27:17.799 Like it's it's very cynical, but that's gotta be kind 543 00:27:17.799 --> 00:27:20.240 of hard not to be cynical in this, in this industry, 544 00:27:20.240 --> 00:27:22.039 in any creative field, really. 545 00:27:22.720 --> 00:27:25.039 I just be honest to be honest here, like it's 546 00:27:25.039 --> 00:27:25.640 hard not to be. 547 00:27:26.440 --> 00:27:29.160 I think anything about podcasting is a positive though in 548 00:27:29.200 --> 00:27:31.440 the long run, Like more people are going to see 549 00:27:31.440 --> 00:27:34.200 this and hopefully get engaged with podcasting in a substantive way, 550 00:27:34.200 --> 00:27:36.319 and that's not a bad thing. That's actually a very 551 00:27:36.359 --> 00:27:39.559 positive thing for the industry as a whole, I think 552 00:27:39.599 --> 00:27:41.200 in the long term. 553 00:27:41.519 --> 00:27:43.279 To a degree. But I think what you get out 554 00:27:43.319 --> 00:27:46.279 of this is you get out of it that podcasting 555 00:27:46.319 --> 00:27:48.319 is a big industry. It's got lots of loads of 556 00:27:48.319 --> 00:27:50.440 people working for it, you know. I Mean the first 557 00:27:50.440 --> 00:27:53.920 thing that big Ron starts talking about is finding a 558 00:27:53.960 --> 00:27:57.599 sound editor, finding you know, you know, a producer for 559 00:27:57.680 --> 00:28:01.319 his shows and everything else. That is not how the 560 00:28:01.359 --> 00:28:04.720 majority of podcasts are put together. I mean, I mean, 561 00:28:04.799 --> 00:28:07.279 I know, I know that I can see on the video. 562 00:28:07.359 --> 00:28:11.480 You're talking to the editor and producer, right well, yeah, yees, 563 00:28:12.279 --> 00:28:12.799 all of us. 564 00:28:12.880 --> 00:28:13.200 Yeah. 565 00:28:13.240 --> 00:28:15.559 Like the same thing with James. I mean, I hear 566 00:28:15.680 --> 00:28:18.839 James when he's recording stuff in a freaking airport, you know, 567 00:28:18.920 --> 00:28:21.400 and it's like you are recording stuff on this. 568 00:28:21.519 --> 00:28:22.200 Isn't it nice? 569 00:28:22.240 --> 00:28:24.240 It must be nice to have a sound editor, like 570 00:28:24.279 --> 00:28:28.000 a you know, storyboard person a story editor, like whatever. 571 00:28:29.079 --> 00:28:31.640 If you think that that's what podcasting is all about, 572 00:28:31.839 --> 00:28:35.400 then fine, but that's not what the majority of shows 573 00:28:35.440 --> 00:28:38.000 are about. And so I think from a point of 574 00:28:38.039 --> 00:28:40.200 view of you know, I mean, yes, there are some 575 00:28:40.240 --> 00:28:44.039 of these big showbiz things. I think I last calculated. 576 00:28:44.079 --> 00:28:46.079 If you look at fresh Air, which is a podcast 577 00:28:46.119 --> 00:28:49.720 and a radio show from NPR, and they interview somebody 578 00:28:49.799 --> 00:28:53.160 new every day, every weekday, a bit like Joe Rogan, 579 00:28:53.759 --> 00:28:57.880 they have seventeen members of staff that get a credit 580 00:28:57.960 --> 00:29:01.079 at the end of the podcast. Seventeen members of staff, 581 00:29:01.119 --> 00:29:03.640 And I'm there thinking, what do these people all do? 582 00:29:04.359 --> 00:29:05.720 What do they all do? 583 00:29:06.599 --> 00:29:07.359 Send them our. 584 00:29:07.279 --> 00:29:11.279 Way thanks to our web editor and our social media manager, 585 00:29:11.640 --> 00:29:14.079 and yeah. 586 00:29:13.119 --> 00:29:18.559 This season is edited and mixed by Evan Viola, our 587 00:29:18.599 --> 00:29:23.559 social media research and production assistant is Brandon Whalen, and 588 00:29:23.680 --> 00:29:26.480 our logo was designed by Teddy Blinks. 589 00:29:27.720 --> 00:29:30.599 You compare that to, you know, Joe Rogan. I don't 590 00:29:30.640 --> 00:29:32.599 think we know how many staff he's got, but I'm 591 00:29:32.640 --> 00:29:35.759 guessing it's going to be less than seventeen. The only 592 00:29:35.799 --> 00:29:38.640 people that get the credit is Joe and two producers, 593 00:29:38.680 --> 00:29:41.079 and that's it. I'm guessing there are a few more, 594 00:29:41.119 --> 00:29:44.680 but not that many. And for most people a podcast 595 00:29:44.880 --> 00:29:49.599 you have to be skilled in researching, in interviewing, in 596 00:29:49.720 --> 00:29:53.720 audio editing, in you know, social media, in all of 597 00:29:53.759 --> 00:30:00.599 this stuff because because frankly, podcasting doesn't work financially if 598 00:30:00.640 --> 00:30:06.079 you start adding sound editors and producers and a social 599 00:30:06.160 --> 00:30:08.680 media manager and all of that. And that, I think 600 00:30:08.759 --> 00:30:12.000 is the difficulty that you see over and over again 601 00:30:12.039 --> 00:30:15.440 in this movie, is that you see people coming to 602 00:30:15.519 --> 00:30:19.200 this with a TV or public radio viewpoint of you know, 603 00:30:19.279 --> 00:30:21.880 this needs fifteen people in order to make it work, 604 00:30:22.000 --> 00:30:27.519 whereas actually, financially, you know, much of podcasting only works 605 00:30:27.599 --> 00:30:29.759 if you've got two or three people or maybe even 606 00:30:29.839 --> 00:30:32.119 one person doing that particular show. 607 00:30:33.119 --> 00:30:35.359 That still blows my mind when people ask me like 608 00:30:35.519 --> 00:30:36.680 who edits your audio? 609 00:30:36.799 --> 00:30:38.200 Like what do you mean? Who? 610 00:30:38.400 --> 00:30:39.319 At least you edit? 611 00:30:41.680 --> 00:30:45.079 I like the emails that come in and they say, hey, 612 00:30:45.160 --> 00:30:46.839 James and the pod news team. 613 00:30:47.519 --> 00:30:49.880 Look around, man, you're looking at. 614 00:30:50.160 --> 00:30:53.200 I do enjoy occasionally turning around to somebody that's sent 615 00:30:53.240 --> 00:30:56.519 me some miserable email and saying and saying, I have 616 00:30:56.640 --> 00:30:58.000 fired the person responsible. 617 00:30:58.599 --> 00:31:01.519 They were given short shrift with something like what they 618 00:31:01.559 --> 00:31:04.160 were doing. I understand why they would need a story editor, 619 00:31:04.240 --> 00:31:08.119 I guess. But I think James, you know you probably 620 00:31:08.160 --> 00:31:10.000 as much as you said you don't watch movies, like 621 00:31:10.119 --> 00:31:12.720 what you do podcasting wise is more in line with 622 00:31:12.720 --> 00:31:15.160 what Mike and I do than what Big Ron and 623 00:31:15.559 --> 00:31:17.680 the friends of the kind of group, the friend group 624 00:31:17.720 --> 00:31:19.240 of these people in this thing that can they keep 625 00:31:19.319 --> 00:31:21.160 kind of like showing up or these kind of working 626 00:31:21.319 --> 00:31:24.519 friend group, Like they're doing something a lot more like 627 00:31:24.920 --> 00:31:28.240 specific and narrow focused and like narratively driven. Like that's 628 00:31:28.279 --> 00:31:30.240 not what I'm not saying, that's not what Mike and 629 00:31:30.240 --> 00:31:31.960 I aren't doing. We're not trying to craft a narrative 630 00:31:32.039 --> 00:31:34.079 or you but like it's a little bit more free 631 00:31:34.079 --> 00:31:35.880 form because it has to be because we don't have 632 00:31:35.960 --> 00:31:40.039 that much time. Like if we're not releasing stuff every week, 633 00:31:40.519 --> 00:31:42.559 like we are going to lose our audience. That is 634 00:31:42.599 --> 00:31:44.640 what is going to happen. We have to feed the 635 00:31:44.640 --> 00:31:46.759 machine like we have to. We don't have a choice. 636 00:31:47.519 --> 00:31:51.319 You can't have seasons, you can't have four months between shows. 637 00:31:51.319 --> 00:31:53.440 There are a few shows that do that, but most 638 00:31:53.440 --> 00:31:56.000 of the time that that doesn't really work. The thing 639 00:31:56.000 --> 00:32:01.039 that I loved in this movie was that brief digression 640 00:32:01.079 --> 00:32:04.039 about editing. It was in the middle of act two, 641 00:32:05.160 --> 00:32:07.599 this American life thing. I think it was an introduction 642 00:32:07.799 --> 00:32:13.319 to their editor and just this beautiful piece of work 643 00:32:13.559 --> 00:32:17.440 that looked a bit like library clips explaining what editing is, 644 00:32:17.480 --> 00:32:20.400 explaining how editing works. It's only a couple of minutes long. 645 00:32:20.559 --> 00:32:23.680 That to me was awesome. I mean, that was a 646 00:32:23.799 --> 00:32:27.559 that was a great piece of video that I really enjoyed. 647 00:32:27.759 --> 00:32:31.400 And I think, you know this, this movie has little 648 00:32:31.480 --> 00:32:35.640 bits of you know, genius like that that I really enjoyed. 649 00:32:36.119 --> 00:32:39.240 Not to try to rewrite the movie of the cuff, 650 00:32:39.279 --> 00:32:41.119 but I kind of would have liked to have seen 651 00:32:41.599 --> 00:32:45.559 an episode come together. Like it's nice seeing Big Ron's 652 00:32:45.680 --> 00:32:48.200 journey and hearing more about him and seeing you know, 653 00:32:48.319 --> 00:32:50.480 clip of the clips of his TED talk and his 654 00:32:51.039 --> 00:32:55.359 TRL live or whatever he was trying to go for 655 00:32:55.759 --> 00:32:58.039 with his audition tape, all these kind of things. I'm like, 656 00:32:58.359 --> 00:33:00.720 that's kind of cool, but I would like to see 657 00:33:00.839 --> 00:33:03.640 how does one episode of one of your shows come together. 658 00:33:04.440 --> 00:33:06.680 Here's a little brief thing about like a friend asked 659 00:33:06.680 --> 00:33:08.920 me if I did a movie review podcast, and so 660 00:33:08.960 --> 00:33:10.599 I went to the theater and I saw this, and 661 00:33:10.640 --> 00:33:12.759 I came up with this thing, and I'm like, Okay, 662 00:33:12.759 --> 00:33:15.359 how many shows do you have? You know, it's kind 663 00:33:15.359 --> 00:33:17.519 of wild, but it's like I would like to see, 664 00:33:17.559 --> 00:33:19.519 like how do you come up with the subject? You know, 665 00:33:19.680 --> 00:33:23.160 like they make a mention of the NPR zine when 666 00:33:23.200 --> 00:33:26.279 it comes to how I think Ira helps write that 667 00:33:26.519 --> 00:33:29.839 and you know how he does his stuff, and it's like, yeah, 668 00:33:29.960 --> 00:33:32.200 that's fascinating to me. How do you actually come up 669 00:33:32.240 --> 00:33:34.319 with this stuff? How do you do your research? How 670 00:33:34.359 --> 00:33:36.839 do you do the technical part of it? But again, 671 00:33:36.920 --> 00:33:39.680 that's not what this documentary is. This is so much 672 00:33:39.759 --> 00:33:42.119 like if sometimes it feels like Big Ron's kind of 673 00:33:42.119 --> 00:33:44.400 on the outside and the rest of it is, you know, 674 00:33:44.440 --> 00:33:47.119 here's Paul Tompkins, Here's Mark Meron, here's you know, all 675 00:33:47.160 --> 00:33:51.640 of these very well known people and very well known 676 00:33:51.720 --> 00:33:53.359 to me and I think to a lot of other 677 00:33:53.400 --> 00:33:57.160 people too. It's not just some host of a NPR 678 00:33:57.359 --> 00:34:00.559 News I mean Chad ab ab and Rod and love 679 00:34:00.640 --> 00:34:04.119 him because I'm a huge Radio lab fan. I don't 680 00:34:04.160 --> 00:34:06.359 know if my mom would know who he is. My 681 00:34:06.440 --> 00:34:10.000 mom would probably know who Joe Rogan or Mark Maron are. 682 00:34:10.239 --> 00:34:13.320 I think the ultimate disappointment for me with the documentary 683 00:34:13.639 --> 00:34:15.960 is that it doesn't touch on the thing that doesn't 684 00:34:16.000 --> 00:34:18.840 get talked about enough, which is if you're doing podcasting, 685 00:34:18.840 --> 00:34:20.559 and like James you mentioned, if you're doing it the 686 00:34:20.599 --> 00:34:23.039 way that we've done it, which is the way that 687 00:34:23.199 --> 00:34:26.679 most people are doing it, it is very lonely. It 688 00:34:26.760 --> 00:34:29.679 is not something that it's like, it's so lonely, like 689 00:34:29.719 --> 00:34:31.880 we're like, yes, we're sitting right now talking to each 690 00:34:31.880 --> 00:34:36.480 other on Zoom, but I'm ostensibly sitting in an office 691 00:34:36.519 --> 00:34:39.880 by myself, talking to a computer screen. Like anyone looking 692 00:34:39.920 --> 00:34:41.639 at this would be like what in God's name am 693 00:34:41.679 --> 00:34:43.679 I looking at? And this is expected to be recorded 694 00:34:43.760 --> 00:34:46.559 and then edited, and it's like a lot of especially 695 00:34:46.559 --> 00:34:48.159 if you're doing it by yourself and you're editing and 696 00:34:48.199 --> 00:34:50.320 doing social media, like that's done by yourself with no 697 00:34:50.360 --> 00:34:53.159 one else in the room. Editing is not a group task, 698 00:34:53.400 --> 00:34:56.679 like promoting is not a group task, like doing a 699 00:34:56.679 --> 00:34:59.280 lot of the other extraneous things that one has to 700 00:34:59.320 --> 00:35:01.840 do to get things out for, you know, whatever platform 701 00:35:01.880 --> 00:35:04.760 they're posting their podcast on, Like, it's a lot of work, 702 00:35:04.800 --> 00:35:07.440 and it's done mostly by yourself, and when you turn 703 00:35:07.480 --> 00:35:09.159 the recording off, like most of the time you're just 704 00:35:09.199 --> 00:35:11.159 left in a room by yourself, unless you're recording with 705 00:35:11.199 --> 00:35:13.360 people in person, which I. 706 00:35:13.280 --> 00:35:14.199 Have not done a lot of. 707 00:35:14.519 --> 00:35:17.760 Most of my recording has been digitally. Like Mike and 708 00:35:17.800 --> 00:35:20.760 I have known each other for damn near eleven years 709 00:35:20.800 --> 00:35:23.119 and I've met him once. We have recorded in person 710 00:35:23.239 --> 00:35:26.920 zero times, but we have recorded digitally one hundred percent 711 00:35:26.960 --> 00:35:29.480 of the time, and that's hundreds of hours of time. 712 00:35:30.000 --> 00:35:31.440 But at the end of the day, like I've never 713 00:35:31.440 --> 00:35:33.840 gotten to hang out with Mike in person and like 714 00:35:33.960 --> 00:35:35.800 be friends, we're like working friends. 715 00:35:35.840 --> 00:35:38.440 It's like a different thing. And that's that's something that they. 716 00:35:38.480 --> 00:35:42.000 Just don't really touch on, is like podcasting is very 717 00:35:42.079 --> 00:35:44.599 much a community thing, but it's also a very lonely thing, 718 00:35:44.639 --> 00:35:47.440 and it's not again unless you've got somebody editing your 719 00:35:47.440 --> 00:35:50.360 audio for you, like you're sitting and doing all this yourself, 720 00:35:50.400 --> 00:35:53.320 Like it's it's a lot. 721 00:35:52.760 --> 00:35:54.960 And he's there, you know, constantly on the move talking 722 00:35:54.960 --> 00:35:57.960 to people, meeting other people and everything else. That's not 723 00:35:58.039 --> 00:36:00.880 really what podcasting is like most of the time. And 724 00:36:01.920 --> 00:36:04.360 I think you are absolutely right there. The one thing 725 00:36:04.480 --> 00:36:07.960 that the podcast industry has conspicuously failed on for the 726 00:36:08.039 --> 00:36:12.079 last twenty one years is to complete the feedback loop 727 00:36:12.159 --> 00:36:17.320 between the podcast creator and the audience. The only thing 728 00:36:17.400 --> 00:36:20.360 that we have as a podcast creator to see whether 729 00:36:20.440 --> 00:36:22.960 or not we're doing a good job or not in 730 00:36:23.000 --> 00:36:25.800 the absence of any feedback from the audience, which we 731 00:36:25.840 --> 00:36:29.440 don't normally get because it's not built into anything, is 732 00:36:29.840 --> 00:36:33.639 by you know, logging onto our podcast host and looking 733 00:36:33.639 --> 00:36:36.079 at some numbers, and that's about as far as we go, 734 00:36:36.519 --> 00:36:40.239 and so everybody frets about the you know, how many 735 00:36:40.760 --> 00:36:44.360 how many hundred downloads have I got for this particular episode, 736 00:36:44.599 --> 00:36:47.280 and we don't focus a little bit more on what 737 00:36:47.320 --> 00:36:50.960 the audience actually thinks because all of that isn't built 738 00:36:51.000 --> 00:36:53.599 in to the podcast apps that we use, or if 739 00:36:53.639 --> 00:36:57.320 it is, it's built in in about fifty separate pubs, 740 00:36:57.679 --> 00:37:00.199 and we have to go into each pub to check 741 00:37:00.199 --> 00:37:03.519 whether anybody is talking about us. That simply doesn't work. 742 00:37:03.840 --> 00:37:06.119 So it would be lovely if there was a way 743 00:37:06.159 --> 00:37:09.119 of fixing that, in a way of making sure that 744 00:37:09.159 --> 00:37:13.159 we get feedback from the audience that we have, which 745 00:37:13.280 --> 00:37:16.800 you know, and feedback is always good to hear from 746 00:37:16.800 --> 00:37:20.320 our audience, but feedback in a way that actually comes 747 00:37:20.400 --> 00:37:22.320 into one place, so you know whether you're doing a 748 00:37:22.320 --> 00:37:25.239 good job or not, But we don't really you know, 749 00:37:25.280 --> 00:37:26.920 but we don't really have that. So we are in 750 00:37:26.960 --> 00:37:29.559 this sort of very lonely experience quite a lot of 751 00:37:29.559 --> 00:37:31.480 the time where yeah, you know, I mean, I do 752 00:37:31.559 --> 00:37:34.400 a weekly show with a man called Sam who I 753 00:37:34.400 --> 00:37:36.960 have met three times, and we've done it. We've just 754 00:37:37.199 --> 00:37:38.880 done episode two hundred and fifty. 755 00:37:38.960 --> 00:37:40.079 It's fucking insane. 756 00:37:40.519 --> 00:37:43.079 Yeah, yeah, you're absolutely right. And I think what this 757 00:37:44.239 --> 00:37:46.880 the movie is because quite a lot of it is 758 00:37:46.920 --> 00:37:51.360 filmed at places like Podcast Movement and the Ambis and 759 00:37:52.280 --> 00:37:56.559 the on AirFest in Brooklyn and you know, various other 760 00:37:56.639 --> 00:38:01.320 of these big podcast events. I think you get the 761 00:38:01.360 --> 00:38:04.519 feeling that podcasting is a very social industry and we 762 00:38:04.559 --> 00:38:06.400 all know each other and we all talk to each 763 00:38:06.400 --> 00:38:09.880 other all the time, and really it is a social industry, 764 00:38:09.920 --> 00:38:14.480 but don't we don't have in real life meetings almost ever. 765 00:38:14.800 --> 00:38:17.079 The first time I had ever gone to anything like 766 00:38:17.320 --> 00:38:19.960 Podcast Movement was last year, and I've been podcasting for 767 00:38:20.000 --> 00:38:24.679 a decade at that point. Like there, you know, like 768 00:38:25.239 --> 00:38:27.760 that that was like kind of a mind blowing experience 769 00:38:27.800 --> 00:38:29.679 for me, and James. I wanted to speak to something else, 770 00:38:29.719 --> 00:38:32.719 you said, so you said ninety five percent of the 771 00:38:32.719 --> 00:38:36.719 podcast don't make money, Mike isn't there. I for forget 772 00:38:36.719 --> 00:38:38.599 what The website is where you can punch your podcast 773 00:38:38.679 --> 00:38:41.039 name in and it shows you, like what percentile you're 774 00:38:41.079 --> 00:38:42.360 in based on listens. 775 00:38:42.440 --> 00:38:43.760 You know what I'm talking about. 776 00:38:44.039 --> 00:38:45.840 Yeah, yeah, yeah, I know what you're talking about. 777 00:38:46.320 --> 00:38:48.840 Mike's show is in the top less than one percent. 778 00:38:49.039 --> 00:38:50.159 Everybody's showing. 779 00:38:52.280 --> 00:38:53.039 That's the Yeah. 780 00:38:53.679 --> 00:38:56.400 I mean, if you go to the buzz Sprout website, 781 00:38:56.440 --> 00:39:00.239 so buzzprow is the number three podcast host, and you 782 00:39:00.280 --> 00:39:03.320 go to the buzz spro Out website buzz sproout dot 783 00:39:03.320 --> 00:39:06.639 com slack slash stats. Right at the bottom of that 784 00:39:06.679 --> 00:39:10.760 page is something that says episode downloads, and it's for 785 00:39:10.800 --> 00:39:13.800 the entire buzz spro Out catalog, all of the shows 786 00:39:13.800 --> 00:39:16.800 which are in there, and there are hundreds of thousands 787 00:39:16.880 --> 00:39:21.159 of episodes in there, and it shows you what a 788 00:39:21.280 --> 00:39:25.079 typical podcast gets. And for the first seven days, a 789 00:39:25.239 --> 00:39:29.599 typical show on buz spro out fifty they you know, 790 00:39:29.639 --> 00:39:33.119 if you look at the big list, then you can 791 00:39:33.239 --> 00:39:39.039 see that twenty seven downloads is what the typical medium 792 00:39:39.119 --> 00:39:44.280 podcast gets. After seven days, twenty seven downloads. So as 793 00:39:44.320 --> 00:39:47.320 soon as you start talking about one thousand downloads for 794 00:39:47.360 --> 00:39:50.559 an episode. After after seven days, you're in the top 795 00:39:50.639 --> 00:39:53.480 five percent, and you're in the top one percent if 796 00:39:53.519 --> 00:39:56.639 you're doing more than four thousand. We forget. I think 797 00:39:56.800 --> 00:40:00.800 that there are a lot of shows with not very 798 00:40:00.800 --> 00:40:01.760 many downloads. 799 00:40:02.119 --> 00:40:03.960 Oh no, we have a lot of shows that don't 800 00:40:03.960 --> 00:40:08.960 have a lot of downloads. Saying we know there's a 801 00:40:09.000 --> 00:40:10.800 lot of shows with not a lot of downloads. 802 00:40:11.000 --> 00:40:14.039 We work, we're making them all the time. 803 00:40:14.079 --> 00:40:16.800 But that's all that we've got to go on because 804 00:40:16.840 --> 00:40:19.599 we don't have because we don't have the feedback. 805 00:40:19.239 --> 00:40:19.360 You know. 806 00:40:19.400 --> 00:40:21.320 I mean when I used to be on the radio, 807 00:40:21.440 --> 00:40:24.119 people would send me things through the post because there 808 00:40:24.119 --> 00:40:26.159 was no such thing as email, because I am that old, 809 00:40:26.719 --> 00:40:28.760 and people would send me things through the post and 810 00:40:28.800 --> 00:40:30.880 I would get postcards and things, and I would get 811 00:40:30.920 --> 00:40:34.360 cards and it would be amazing, And of course we 812 00:40:34.400 --> 00:40:37.159 don't get any of that now. So literally, the only 813 00:40:37.199 --> 00:40:40.400 thing that we are doing is sitting there going, oh, 814 00:40:40.519 --> 00:40:43.239 have I broken the top ten percent yet with four 815 00:40:43.320 --> 00:40:47.239 hundred and fifty downloads. You know, that's literally all all 816 00:40:47.280 --> 00:40:49.360 that we're doing. And I think that's a real that's 817 00:40:49.360 --> 00:40:52.960 a real shame. But the technical term is cross app comments, 818 00:40:53.480 --> 00:40:56.880 and we are so far away from cross app comments, sadly. 819 00:40:56.800 --> 00:40:59.639 I just would love a comment. I mean, that's why 820 00:40:59.679 --> 00:41:02.960 I'm begging people for ratings and reviews on iTunes. It's like, 821 00:41:03.000 --> 00:41:06.039 please just give me any sort of feedback here, because 822 00:41:06.039 --> 00:41:08.599 I put stuff out and I just never hear anything. 823 00:41:09.039 --> 00:41:11.920 But I guess that's just the way it is. I 824 00:41:12.039 --> 00:41:16.039 love that meme of the kid eating cereal in front 825 00:41:16.039 --> 00:41:18.360 of a picture of these three laughing girls, and it 826 00:41:18.400 --> 00:41:21.039 says what it feels like to listen to podcasts where 827 00:41:21.039 --> 00:41:23.840 it's like I'm there with these people, but they're just 828 00:41:23.920 --> 00:41:26.280 a poster and I'm the one eating the serious. 829 00:41:27.960 --> 00:41:31.280 Yes, it's a strange thing, but you know, again, there 830 00:41:31.320 --> 00:41:34.119 is that sort of parasocial relationship that you have with 831 00:41:34.159 --> 00:41:37.719 the podcasts that you really enjoy, and you you know, 832 00:41:37.760 --> 00:41:40.280 it's very strange. There are some podcasters out there who 833 00:41:40.360 --> 00:41:42.559 I genuinely think are my friends, even though I've never 834 00:41:42.599 --> 00:41:47.000 met them. True, And yeah, it's just the way that 835 00:41:47.039 --> 00:41:50.960 this stuff works. And I think, you know, quite a 836 00:41:51.000 --> 00:41:54.400 lot of the quite a lot of the movie talked 837 00:41:54.440 --> 00:41:57.920 a lot about making a podcast, but there weren't any listeners. 838 00:41:57.960 --> 00:42:00.719 There weren't any people talking about some of the stuff 839 00:42:00.760 --> 00:42:03.320 that they had heard, and I think again, you know 840 00:42:03.400 --> 00:42:05.239 that that's a bit of a shame. We heard a 841 00:42:05.320 --> 00:42:08.960 lot from creators, but just it might have been it 842 00:42:09.039 --> 00:42:11.800 might have been fun. I'm I'm not a film director, 843 00:42:12.079 --> 00:42:15.199 I don't watch films, but it might have been fun 844 00:42:15.280 --> 00:42:20.639 to have occasionally cut to just people listening to podcasts, 845 00:42:20.760 --> 00:42:24.360 doing the doing the dishes, walking out the door, you know, driving. 846 00:42:24.360 --> 00:42:28.639 Well, they've got some stock footage people vacuuming, and. 847 00:42:28.639 --> 00:42:31.800 There's a woman running at one point with some headphones on. 848 00:42:32.239 --> 00:42:33.719 Like why would they? Why would we? 849 00:42:34.039 --> 00:42:36.559 You think again, like James, no one listens to anything 850 00:42:36.559 --> 00:42:38.639 we do. So who's who's they? Who they're gonna interview? 851 00:42:39.840 --> 00:42:40.920 Who is there interview? 852 00:42:42.079 --> 00:42:45.679 It is weird again, unrepresented sides of the equation here, 853 00:42:45.800 --> 00:42:47.800 Like I don't understand who the documentary is for in 854 00:42:47.840 --> 00:42:50.639 a way because like it doesn't it doesn't cover one 855 00:42:50.679 --> 00:42:52.599 half of what I think is the half of the 856 00:42:52.639 --> 00:42:56.519 big equation here, which is the audience, an audience engagement 857 00:42:56.599 --> 00:43:00.199 and getting the audience to engage, like begging, I know 858 00:43:00.280 --> 00:43:02.440 people listen to my show. Why is it too hard 859 00:43:02.480 --> 00:43:04.440 for anybody to write a review? Like why am I 860 00:43:04.519 --> 00:43:08.480 begging you to write a review for my show, like again. 861 00:43:08.559 --> 00:43:10.679 And it's weird because we don't see the audience in 862 00:43:10.679 --> 00:43:12.719 this movie. We just see a bunch of podcasters, which 863 00:43:12.760 --> 00:43:16.000 is fine, makes sense for a podcast documentary. 864 00:43:16.519 --> 00:43:18.079 All right, we're going to take a break and we'll 865 00:43:18.079 --> 00:43:20.320 be right back with an interview with the director of 866 00:43:20.360 --> 00:43:24.159 Age of Audio, Shawn Michael Cologne, right after these brief messages. 867 00:43:32.440 --> 00:43:36.039 Hello, everyone, this is Malcolm McDowell. I just want to 868 00:43:36.079 --> 00:43:40.440 say that this is a request to listeners of the 869 00:43:40.639 --> 00:43:46.119 Projection Booth podcast to become patrons of the show via 870 00:43:46.639 --> 00:43:52.559 Patreon dot com p A T eo n dot com 871 00:43:52.719 --> 00:43:56.480 slash Projection Booth. That's pretty simple. 872 00:43:56.639 --> 00:43:57.599 I think you can do that. 873 00:43:58.280 --> 00:44:02.119 It's a great show and my he provides hours of 874 00:44:02.280 --> 00:44:05.840 great entertainment. So now it's time to give back my 875 00:44:05.960 --> 00:44:09.719 little drovies. Settle down and take a listen and have 876 00:44:09.840 --> 00:44:12.960 a sip of the old Malacco, and then you'll be 877 00:44:13.039 --> 00:44:14.079 ready for a little of. 878 00:44:14.039 --> 00:44:17.400 The old in Out in Out real horror show. 879 00:44:17.920 --> 00:44:21.599 Bye bye. 880 00:44:24.679 --> 00:44:26.400 How did you get interested in filmmaking? 881 00:44:27.079 --> 00:44:28.639 Agent Body is my second feature. 882 00:44:29.400 --> 00:44:32.599 The first documentary we did was called a Fat Wreck, 883 00:44:32.679 --> 00:44:36.760 and it's about this punk rock record label. And before 884 00:44:36.800 --> 00:44:38.719 I had started that, I was a marketing director for 885 00:44:38.760 --> 00:44:41.559 like a talent development school. There's a lot of kids 886 00:44:41.559 --> 00:44:44.119 that were trying to be pop stars and they needed 887 00:44:44.199 --> 00:44:47.239 music videos, and the music videos were going outside of 888 00:44:47.280 --> 00:44:50.239 the business. So as part of a package that created 889 00:44:50.239 --> 00:44:53.280 a social media package that included the music video so 890 00:44:53.280 --> 00:44:57.360 we'd keep the quality control inside the house and basically 891 00:44:57.360 --> 00:45:00.039 started doing the music video stuff, and through that I 892 00:45:00.000 --> 00:45:02.440 I started doing some editing Rich Kids, by the way, 893 00:45:02.440 --> 00:45:06.679 I should mention that. And the third music video I 894 00:45:06.679 --> 00:45:09.320 produced was like a twenty thousand dollars music video where 895 00:45:09.320 --> 00:45:13.440 we hired a production company, read cameras, location, the whole thing, 896 00:45:14.159 --> 00:45:17.039 and I produced it. I didn't direct it. I just 897 00:45:17.079 --> 00:45:19.639 was making sure everything happened. And the day of the 898 00:45:19.679 --> 00:45:21.719 production there wasn't much to do, so me and my 899 00:45:22.519 --> 00:45:24.960 buddy who's also the cinematographer that I've worked with for 900 00:45:25.000 --> 00:45:27.320 a long time, Jewell her Era, I was like, Hey, 901 00:45:27.320 --> 00:45:30.000 why don't we grab some cameras and just interview everybody 902 00:45:30.039 --> 00:45:33.320 and do like a little behind the scenes documentary. And 903 00:45:33.360 --> 00:45:35.360 at that point I had not really I've done a 904 00:45:35.360 --> 00:45:39.280 little live performance editing, but hadn't really edited together anything 905 00:45:39.280 --> 00:45:41.079 with a narrative or that kind of thing, and so. 906 00:45:41.119 --> 00:45:41.599 We did that. 907 00:45:41.679 --> 00:45:45.000 We shot it and we put some jokes in it, 908 00:45:45.079 --> 00:45:48.199 and you know, really thought about it. And the family 909 00:45:48.679 --> 00:45:50.800 was premiering the music video in a little theater, so 910 00:45:50.840 --> 00:45:53.119 he'd rent out of theater and we showed the miss 911 00:45:53.159 --> 00:45:54.960 thing because it was just an extra thing. It was 912 00:45:55.000 --> 00:45:57.039 just a fun little thing we did. They liked it there, 913 00:45:57.119 --> 00:45:59.159 so like, hey, can we show this at the screening 914 00:45:59.480 --> 00:46:00.400 of the video. 915 00:46:00.440 --> 00:46:03.280 We're like, well, yeah, sure. And the audio wasn't too great. 916 00:46:03.360 --> 00:46:06.480 I don't know how well is edited, but people seem 917 00:46:06.519 --> 00:46:08.199 to like it and laughed when they were supposed to laugh, 918 00:46:08.239 --> 00:46:10.440 and I was like, ooh, I like this feeling. It's cool. 919 00:46:11.119 --> 00:46:12.960 I had played in bands for a long time and 920 00:46:13.719 --> 00:46:16.079 one of the things about playing a band is that 921 00:46:16.119 --> 00:46:21.280 you never can experience yourself live because you're playing. But 922 00:46:21.400 --> 00:46:23.239 with film, it was like this thing that I made 923 00:46:23.280 --> 00:46:25.440 and then I got to experience it with the audience. 924 00:46:26.000 --> 00:46:28.760 So it's kind of this dual feeling of performing but 925 00:46:28.880 --> 00:46:29.679 also watching. 926 00:46:29.840 --> 00:46:30.960 So it was really interesting. 927 00:46:31.360 --> 00:46:33.400 And when people laughed at the parts you want him 928 00:46:33.400 --> 00:46:35.239 to laugh at, that was like a really cool feeling. 929 00:46:35.280 --> 00:46:39.599 And so after that happened my cinematographer Joelle. He was 930 00:46:39.639 --> 00:46:41.599 also played drums and bands with me, and we were 931 00:46:41.840 --> 00:46:44.199 a band practice and I was like, why don't we 932 00:46:44.239 --> 00:46:46.679 do something that we were more interested in, like something 933 00:46:46.679 --> 00:46:48.480 that we have a deep passion about. And this is 934 00:46:48.519 --> 00:46:51.320 a record label called Fat Records. We're like, hey, no 935 00:46:51.320 --> 00:46:54.079 one's ever done a documentary about Fat Records. And this 936 00:46:54.119 --> 00:46:55.960 is around the time Netflix was showing a bunch of 937 00:46:56.000 --> 00:46:58.719 punk rock documentaries. I was like, no one ever talks 938 00:46:58.760 --> 00:47:01.519 about the mid nineties punk rock that we grew up with, 939 00:47:01.559 --> 00:47:03.719 you know, so why don't we do something talk to 940 00:47:03.760 --> 00:47:07.000 our friends and so basically he had started doing some 941 00:47:07.079 --> 00:47:09.320 cinematography stuff and he was like, here, rent this camera, 942 00:47:09.440 --> 00:47:12.400 rent this, and I just went out and started shooting 943 00:47:12.400 --> 00:47:14.639 stuff without really knowing much about what I was doing. 944 00:47:15.320 --> 00:47:18.079 That eventually led to a crowdfunding thing that we did 945 00:47:18.079 --> 00:47:21.440 that was wildly successful. Hit four hundred percent of our goal. 946 00:47:21.480 --> 00:47:25.079 We were asking for like seven grand, and basically. 947 00:47:24.920 --> 00:47:26.320 In the first day we hit our goal. 948 00:47:26.440 --> 00:47:29.679 And I had never really edited anything bigger than this 949 00:47:29.719 --> 00:47:33.159 fifteen minute little thing, and yeah, so we kind of 950 00:47:33.280 --> 00:47:36.159 spiraled and I ended up doing a trailer and people 951 00:47:36.239 --> 00:47:38.440 liked it. The guy from the label ended up agreeing 952 00:47:38.480 --> 00:47:41.159 to be interviewed and fat Mic from his band No Effects. 953 00:47:41.199 --> 00:47:43.239 If any of your friends punk rock fans, they might 954 00:47:43.239 --> 00:47:46.440 know who No Effects is. And it just kept going 955 00:47:46.679 --> 00:47:48.679 and we ended up doing a documentary called a Fat Wreck. 956 00:47:49.000 --> 00:47:51.119 People seem to like it, and when it was done, 957 00:47:51.199 --> 00:47:53.719 it did a bunch of film festivals, it got picked up, 958 00:47:53.840 --> 00:47:56.599 it was on you know, we sold itubes as well, 959 00:47:56.639 --> 00:47:59.000 but then it eventually got picked up and was on 960 00:47:59.320 --> 00:48:02.880 Amazon prop for a few years. We had distribution in Japan, 961 00:48:03.039 --> 00:48:06.440 and really it was kind of like the first really 962 00:48:06.480 --> 00:48:10.239 I'm doing my second film. I realized that maybe I 963 00:48:10.280 --> 00:48:13.960 had success too early, if that makes sense, like cause 964 00:48:14.679 --> 00:48:17.920 it's really challenging, Like it's that's not how it works. 965 00:48:17.960 --> 00:48:20.719 It usually doesn't go that quickly and that fast and 966 00:48:21.199 --> 00:48:23.840 raise that money that fast and for it to be 967 00:48:24.639 --> 00:48:27.000 I think we did like twelve film festivals at the time. 968 00:48:27.679 --> 00:48:31.239 So it was just like this experience that was really 969 00:48:31.840 --> 00:48:34.719 too big for our breitches. Maybe, you know, doing that 970 00:48:34.920 --> 00:48:37.400 was like, oh, it was really hard. It was way 971 00:48:37.440 --> 00:48:40.719 more work than I expected. It was one of the 972 00:48:40.719 --> 00:48:45.800 hardest things I've ever done creatively, physically, emotionally and financially, 973 00:48:46.639 --> 00:48:48.000 and I was like, oh, let's do another. 974 00:48:48.920 --> 00:48:50.599 And so that's how it kind of got started. 975 00:48:51.320 --> 00:48:53.519 I think I did a couple of music videos prior 976 00:48:53.559 --> 00:48:56.719 to that, like basic, some basic things, and it really 977 00:48:56.800 --> 00:48:59.360 kind of went to the deep end really quickly, and 978 00:48:59.760 --> 00:49:02.199 with very lucky in a lot of ways to have 979 00:49:02.280 --> 00:49:04.480 something that had a lot of success right away, and 980 00:49:04.960 --> 00:49:07.079 I ended up with a sales agent and someone who 981 00:49:07.079 --> 00:49:10.079 connected within that space. And the film right now a 982 00:49:10.079 --> 00:49:12.760 fat wreck. If anybody's listening, if they want to watch it, 983 00:49:12.760 --> 00:49:15.880 it's on Documentary Plus streaming for free right now, So 984 00:49:16.480 --> 00:49:19.199 if you want to watch it, it's available. And then 985 00:49:20.000 --> 00:49:22.199 to follow that up, there's a couple of other projects. 986 00:49:22.239 --> 00:49:25.599 Whenever you finish a documentary, everyone's like, oh, I have 987 00:49:25.639 --> 00:49:27.000 an idea for a documentary. 988 00:49:27.639 --> 00:49:30.039 I was like, well, that's great me, it's a good 989 00:49:30.159 --> 00:49:30.800 chunk of my life. 990 00:49:30.840 --> 00:49:35.239 That first one took five years, and this one came 991 00:49:35.280 --> 00:49:37.760 about we were working on a different documentary that dealt 992 00:49:37.800 --> 00:49:40.599 with this band called The Wilhelm Scream and I ended 993 00:49:40.679 --> 00:49:42.679 up interviewing Dallas Taylor. 994 00:49:42.760 --> 00:49:46.360 He does a podcast called twenty thousand Hurts. If you haven't. 995 00:49:46.239 --> 00:49:48.840 Listened to it, it's amazing it's all about sound and 996 00:49:48.880 --> 00:49:51.840 sound design and just really about the things we hear. 997 00:49:52.239 --> 00:49:54.679 It's kind of like this American life for nine nine 998 00:49:54.719 --> 00:49:58.960 percent invisible for sound and things that surround that. And 999 00:49:59.159 --> 00:50:03.360 we were interviewing him about the sound of Wilhelm scream. 1000 00:50:03.840 --> 00:50:06.039 Someone's not familiar, they should go look up at Willem scream. 1001 00:50:06.039 --> 00:50:08.920 It's this famous sound that shows up in like Star 1002 00:50:08.960 --> 00:50:10.880 Wars and Indiana Jones and like, I think it's like 1003 00:50:10.880 --> 00:50:13.800 three hundred movies or something crazy like that. I should 1004 00:50:13.800 --> 00:50:18.199 preface by saying during that filming, I as far as 1005 00:50:18.239 --> 00:50:22.320 punk rock band. And we ended up filming in Brooklyn, 1006 00:50:22.960 --> 00:50:25.119 and that night that we were filming, this band that 1007 00:50:25.159 --> 00:50:28.559 I really like called Propaganda was playing and a friend 1008 00:50:28.559 --> 00:50:32.119 of ours was opening up for them and knew we 1009 00:50:32.119 --> 00:50:34.440 were filming, so asked us to come film their first set. 1010 00:50:35.239 --> 00:50:38.639 And I want to see Propagandi, so of course I agreed, 1011 00:50:39.400 --> 00:50:43.440 and on our way to go to that show, my 1012 00:50:43.519 --> 00:50:45.639 friend basically was like, Hey, my uncle's going to be 1013 00:50:45.679 --> 00:50:47.920 at the show. I was like, oh, great, I'll get 1014 00:50:47.960 --> 00:50:51.239 to meet your uncle. And he's like, my uncle's Ira Glass, 1015 00:50:51.920 --> 00:50:54.679 And so I ended up hanging out with Ira Glass 1016 00:50:54.719 --> 00:50:58.239 at this punk rock show in Brooklyn really a kind 1017 00:50:58.239 --> 00:51:01.039 of weird world's combining. I was a big fan of 1018 00:51:01.079 --> 00:51:03.360 this American life and Radio Lab and all those things 1019 00:51:03.440 --> 00:51:07.679 and thought of that as like NPR and that kind 1020 00:51:07.679 --> 00:51:10.559 of world and kind of saw it separate from the 1021 00:51:10.599 --> 00:51:13.639 punk rock world. And to just have those two things 1022 00:51:13.679 --> 00:51:15.880 in the same space was really I was like, we 1023 00:51:16.000 --> 00:51:17.199 earn some kind of weird timeline. 1024 00:51:17.199 --> 00:51:19.039 I don't I don't know what's going on here. 1025 00:51:19.760 --> 00:51:21.639 Ended up hanging out with Ira, and it was more 1026 00:51:21.719 --> 00:51:23.239 it wasn't just like I met him. It was like 1027 00:51:23.239 --> 00:51:25.440 we ended up hanging out like where I chattered with 1028 00:51:25.519 --> 00:51:27.679 him for a few hours. He was asking us about 1029 00:51:27.679 --> 00:51:31.280 the movie working on. He came to the show of 1030 00:51:31.320 --> 00:51:34.360 the band we were filming as well, and so it 1031 00:51:34.400 --> 00:51:36.079 was like this whole evening and so I got this 1032 00:51:36.679 --> 00:51:42.719 really interesting experience and fast forward to me interviewing Dallas. 1033 00:51:43.679 --> 00:51:46.000 He knew that I knew Roman Mars as well, because 1034 00:51:46.079 --> 00:51:49.280 Roman Mars had actually done the pull quotes for our 1035 00:51:49.320 --> 00:51:51.559 first movie on the back of the Blu Ray. Because 1036 00:51:51.559 --> 00:51:53.360 I had shown him the movie, I figured out he 1037 00:51:53.400 --> 00:51:54.960 was a punk rock fan and sent him the movie 1038 00:51:54.960 --> 00:51:58.039 on Twitter, and he sent some nice things back about 1039 00:51:58.079 --> 00:51:58.639 I was like, hey, can. 1040 00:51:58.599 --> 00:52:00.360 I use some of this for the back of the 1041 00:52:00.360 --> 00:52:00.880 Blu ray? 1042 00:52:01.679 --> 00:52:05.920 And so after I had interviewed Dallas, Dallas was like, hey, man, 1043 00:52:06.840 --> 00:52:10.239 you know I Ara Glass now and you know Roman Mars, 1044 00:52:11.000 --> 00:52:14.519 why don't you make a podcast documentary? And I was like, 1045 00:52:15.239 --> 00:52:19.360 you're a jerk man. Why did you just say that 1046 00:52:19.440 --> 00:52:22.119 to me out loud? I clearly have to do that. 1047 00:52:23.199 --> 00:52:27.000 I want to say sometime like January or February of 1048 00:52:27.079 --> 00:52:30.159 twenty eighteen, and I reached out to Roman. I was like, hey, 1049 00:52:30.159 --> 00:52:33.360 I'm thinking about doing this podcast documentary. If I did, 1050 00:52:33.400 --> 00:52:36.320 would you be interested in being interviewed? He said sure, 1051 00:52:36.360 --> 00:52:39.199 of course, you know, I'm down. I think a month 1052 00:52:39.280 --> 00:52:41.000 or two later if that's In March, I go to 1053 00:52:41.039 --> 00:52:44.239 south By Southwest. I run into my sales agent who's 1054 00:52:44.280 --> 00:52:47.679 also my friend, Jeff Clark, and he's. 1055 00:52:47.480 --> 00:52:48.239 Like, what are you working on. 1056 00:52:48.400 --> 00:52:50.800 He's like, oh, I'm working on this project with this 1057 00:52:50.880 --> 00:52:54.679 band and about you know, support systems and all these things. 1058 00:52:54.920 --> 00:52:56.519 He's like yeah. It was like that's cool, Like do 1059 00:52:56.519 --> 00:52:58.000 you have anything else that you're thinking about. 1060 00:52:58.079 --> 00:53:01.159 It's like, well, I have this idea for this podcast documentary, 1061 00:53:01.559 --> 00:53:03.800 and I you know, I met Ira Glass and Roman 1062 00:53:03.880 --> 00:53:04.719 Mars said he would do it. 1063 00:53:04.760 --> 00:53:07.000 He's like, dude, I could get some money for that. 1064 00:53:07.760 --> 00:53:08.440 I was like, WHOA. 1065 00:53:09.039 --> 00:53:12.920 And I think the next day was the PRX meetup 1066 00:53:13.639 --> 00:53:17.599 Radiotopia PRX. They were doing a meetup and there was 1067 00:53:18.519 --> 00:53:21.639 Chris Bannon from at the time Stitcher. There's some people 1068 00:53:21.719 --> 00:53:26.159 there from Stuff you Should Know Network. Julie Shapiro from 1069 00:53:26.239 --> 00:53:30.239 Ridotopia was there and basically I pitched everyone and I 1070 00:53:30.280 --> 00:53:31.719 was like, Hey, I think I can get the money. 1071 00:53:32.199 --> 00:53:35.880 Roman said yes, I met Ira Glass and thinking about 1072 00:53:35.880 --> 00:53:40.719 doing this podcast documentary, and everyone gave me their contact information. 1073 00:53:40.800 --> 00:53:45.519 We're really excited about it, and I think by May 1074 00:53:45.800 --> 00:53:50.079 we were filming some of the first things for the documentary, 1075 00:53:50.079 --> 00:53:51.760 so it was kind of within a matter of months 1076 00:53:51.800 --> 00:53:55.119 we were filming and that's how Age of Audio started. 1077 00:53:55.159 --> 00:53:57.679 So it's kind of like this kind of thing now. 1078 00:53:57.760 --> 00:54:03.199 Age of Audi took seven years. That bath start. 1079 00:54:02.599 --> 00:54:05.679 Very challenging to get it over the finish line. 1080 00:54:05.880 --> 00:54:08.639 You had a global pandemic in there too, so I 1081 00:54:08.800 --> 00:54:10.039 can catch you a little slack. 1082 00:54:10.920 --> 00:54:14.639 Yeah, that definitely puts some speed bumps in there of 1083 00:54:14.679 --> 00:54:15.320 what we could film it. 1084 00:54:15.400 --> 00:54:16.840 We were able to edit a little bit of what 1085 00:54:16.880 --> 00:54:17.559 we had filmed. 1086 00:54:17.800 --> 00:54:22.079 We actually started filming in Earnest in twenty nineteen, the 1087 00:54:22.199 --> 00:54:25.519 day we landed to start filming in New York with 1088 00:54:25.719 --> 00:54:27.639 Ira Glass because I reached out to him he said, yeah, 1089 00:54:27.719 --> 00:54:31.320 I'll do it. It was the day that Gimlet sold to 1090 00:54:31.400 --> 00:54:34.480 Spotify for two hundred and fifty million dollars, And although 1091 00:54:34.480 --> 00:54:36.920 there had been a few other big acquisitions, that was 1092 00:54:37.000 --> 00:54:39.920 like three to four times larger than anything else and 1093 00:54:40.000 --> 00:54:44.119 really was kind of like the starting gun of this 1094 00:54:44.199 --> 00:54:48.280 kind of like lash of money that started swelling into podcasting. 1095 00:54:48.400 --> 00:54:50.599 So we were, in some ways at the right place, 1096 00:54:50.639 --> 00:54:53.920 at the right time, with the right project, and we're 1097 00:54:53.960 --> 00:54:56.000 able to kind of capture some of that moment and 1098 00:54:56.599 --> 00:54:58.480 talk to those people. I think we did almost like 1099 00:54:58.559 --> 00:55:02.760 thirty interviews that year, including Kevin Smith and Roman Mars 1100 00:55:02.840 --> 00:55:07.559 and Jesse Thorn and host of other people that year. 1101 00:55:07.639 --> 00:55:09.440 So a lot of the movie was shot in twenty 1102 00:55:09.559 --> 00:55:13.800 nineteen before the pandemic. Just before the pandemic, I think 1103 00:55:13.840 --> 00:55:15.760 we were finished. We were going to do another round 1104 00:55:15.800 --> 00:55:18.760 of interviews as we were heading into twenty twenty, and 1105 00:55:18.920 --> 00:55:23.960 as we all know, things changed dramatically and couldn't really 1106 00:55:23.960 --> 00:55:25.920 do a whole lot of in person interviews at that point. 1107 00:55:26.719 --> 00:55:29.199 So how did you go from working with Fat Mike 1108 00:55:29.280 --> 00:55:29.840 to Big. 1109 00:55:29.760 --> 00:55:32.800 Ron Ronald came in the last about year and a 1110 00:55:32.840 --> 00:55:36.920 half through filming the documentary. We had a few other 1111 00:55:37.000 --> 00:55:41.159 subjects that we had focused on that were independent, but 1112 00:55:41.320 --> 00:55:44.000 I really wanted there to be a aspect of an 1113 00:55:44.039 --> 00:55:48.079 independent person working on there. Originally, my idea was to 1114 00:55:48.119 --> 00:55:52.760 follow an independent podcaster and also follow along one of 1115 00:55:52.800 --> 00:55:57.119 the lower producers in our freshman producers at Radio Lab 1116 00:55:57.159 --> 00:56:01.079 and parallel those two pitch Radio Lab on it, but 1117 00:56:01.199 --> 00:56:02.519 they declined. 1118 00:56:03.119 --> 00:56:05.840 I had another subject that I worked with. 1119 00:56:05.920 --> 00:56:10.000 Over the course of seven years, things change and ideas change, 1120 00:56:10.039 --> 00:56:13.480 and where people are changed. I had a couple subjects 1121 00:56:13.559 --> 00:56:16.719 drop out, and in twenty twenty three the film was 1122 00:56:16.840 --> 00:56:19.480 kind of floundering. It didn't feel like it was going anywhere, 1123 00:56:19.519 --> 00:56:23.800 and momentum had gone. I was really worried that we 1124 00:56:23.840 --> 00:56:26.960 would be in a situation where the film would fall apart. 1125 00:56:27.719 --> 00:56:31.360 At that point, we applied for some grants, got some 1126 00:56:31.400 --> 00:56:34.320 more stuff edited, and I was really gearing up do 1127 00:56:34.400 --> 00:56:38.159 a crowdfunding thing because I was like, would keep things moving. 1128 00:56:38.400 --> 00:56:41.320 Lo and behold, we submitted I think it was in April, 1129 00:56:41.400 --> 00:56:44.000 and then in August I found out that we had 1130 00:56:44.039 --> 00:56:46.440 gotten the Awesoin Film Society grant. 1131 00:56:46.800 --> 00:56:48.400 It's about ten thousand dollars. 1132 00:56:49.159 --> 00:56:51.800 It wasn't enough to complete the film by any means, 1133 00:56:51.800 --> 00:56:54.159 but breathe a lot of new life into the project. 1134 00:56:54.840 --> 00:56:57.360 And when that happened, I reached out to the subjects 1135 00:56:57.519 --> 00:57:00.440 that they'd been working with for about two years and 1136 00:57:00.559 --> 00:57:04.599 the film had kind of gone dormant for about six months. 1137 00:57:04.920 --> 00:57:06.400 I reached out and they're like, Hey, we're in a 1138 00:57:06.400 --> 00:57:12.679 different place and we're not really interested, which is incredibly disheartening. However, 1139 00:57:12.840 --> 00:57:15.039 it was actually probably the best thing that could have 1140 00:57:15.039 --> 00:57:18.760 possibly happened, because what happens is I get the grant, 1141 00:57:18.880 --> 00:57:20.880 I use it to actually buy a computer I can 1142 00:57:21.000 --> 00:57:24.000 edit on. My other computer was almost ten years old, 1143 00:57:24.039 --> 00:57:25.960 I could barely edit on it. I was able to 1144 00:57:25.960 --> 00:57:28.840 get something I could really start editing on. And then 1145 00:57:28.880 --> 00:57:30.559 I used a little bit of it to go to 1146 00:57:30.639 --> 00:57:34.159 a podcast conference called Resonate, which was I think doing 1147 00:57:34.480 --> 00:57:40.159 their second year, and I reached out to Chiochi from 1148 00:57:40.199 --> 00:57:42.719 Resonate and was basically like, Hey, I'm working on this documentary, 1149 00:57:42.719 --> 00:57:44.599 I would love to come to the festival. I she 1150 00:57:44.639 --> 00:57:47.360 really can't afford the passes. I would love to be. 1151 00:57:47.480 --> 00:57:49.760 You know, they had like a scholarship program, so I 1152 00:57:49.800 --> 00:57:52.440 asked to be part of the scholarship. And my thinking 1153 00:57:52.559 --> 00:57:54.360 was if I got the scholarship, I would definitely go 1154 00:57:54.679 --> 00:57:56.280 and I could use a little bit of that grant 1155 00:57:56.280 --> 00:57:58.960 money to pay for the hotel and the flights. 1156 00:57:59.360 --> 00:58:00.920 And so I end up going to Resonate. 1157 00:58:01.599 --> 00:58:05.639 So my idea was I want to get some allies 1158 00:58:05.760 --> 00:58:08.199 or some momentum going about the crowdfunding thing I'm about 1159 00:58:08.239 --> 00:58:09.960 to do. So I really go there and talk about 1160 00:58:09.960 --> 00:58:11.800 the movie and see if I can get people interested 1161 00:58:11.840 --> 00:58:14.480 in what I was working on and the film that 1162 00:58:14.480 --> 00:58:16.239 had kind of been around for a time, so some 1163 00:58:16.280 --> 00:58:18.239 people knew about it and kind of knew about the 1164 00:58:18.280 --> 00:58:22.400 production that were there. And I ended up running into 1165 00:58:23.159 --> 00:58:26.280 Ellen Horn, who was actually on the team that helped 1166 00:58:26.320 --> 00:58:30.519 create Radio Lab and is also an NYU professor and 1167 00:58:30.559 --> 00:58:35.079 she handles the podcast studies and audio storytelling, And it 1168 00:58:35.119 --> 00:58:36.360 was on the last night of Resonate. 1169 00:58:36.519 --> 00:58:39.239 She was like, Hey, I heard about your project. 1170 00:58:39.280 --> 00:58:42.039 How can I help and really wanted to participate in 1171 00:58:42.079 --> 00:58:45.079 a high level. So we had a really great time 1172 00:58:45.320 --> 00:58:47.920 chatting and she really came up on board on the 1173 00:58:47.920 --> 00:58:51.079 project at that point as a producer and a story editor. 1174 00:58:51.800 --> 00:58:54.239 But a little bit prior to that, I had started 1175 00:58:54.280 --> 00:58:59.000 hearing about Ronald Young Junior. There had been some people 1176 00:58:59.000 --> 00:59:02.000 in the film that had worked with him. I had 1177 00:59:02.440 --> 00:59:03.360 seen him pop. 1178 00:59:03.239 --> 00:59:07.519 Up, and when we were shifting to a new subject 1179 00:59:07.599 --> 00:59:10.719 on our website, I had put basically like, hey, if 1180 00:59:10.760 --> 00:59:13.559 you're an independent podcaster, please reach out. We're looking for 1181 00:59:13.559 --> 00:59:15.400 someone to work with that be a part of the film. 1182 00:59:16.199 --> 00:59:19.519 And very honored to have a lot of people submit 1183 00:59:20.360 --> 00:59:24.159 their story and their podcasts and things about being independent creators. 1184 00:59:24.159 --> 00:59:25.440 But one of the names that when I was looking 1185 00:59:25.440 --> 00:59:27.760 at the list was wrong Junior really struck out to me. 1186 00:59:27.960 --> 00:59:30.559 It's like, hey, this guy's having you know, I've heard 1187 00:59:30.559 --> 00:59:33.239 a lot about this guy lately, and he's wanting he's 1188 00:59:33.639 --> 00:59:36.159 would be willing to participate in the film. So I 1189 00:59:36.199 --> 00:59:41.360 reached out to Ronald, and Ronald's really cool guy, like 1190 00:59:41.400 --> 00:59:44.880 really like. We jibed right away and I was like, Hey, 1191 00:59:44.920 --> 00:59:46.159 I'm interested in chatting with you. 1192 00:59:46.239 --> 00:59:48.920 I'm going to you know, albe at Resonate. Were you 1193 00:59:48.920 --> 00:59:50.559 going to be there? He's like, dude, I live. 1194 00:59:50.519 --> 00:59:54.679 There basically where I live like he's you know, that's 1195 00:59:54.679 --> 00:59:57.760 the college he goes went to, Like he's part of that. 1196 00:59:57.800 --> 00:59:59.519 So he's like, I'm going to be there. So I 1197 00:59:59.559 --> 01:00:00.840 was like, okay, that's a good sign. 1198 01:00:01.800 --> 01:00:05.119 So basically, you know, he wanted to be a part 1199 01:00:05.159 --> 01:00:07.840 of it, and we met, and then I think with 1200 01:00:07.960 --> 01:00:12.400 the addition of Ellen coming aboard, that really really is what. 1201 01:00:12.280 --> 01:00:14.280 Got the movie to over the finish line. 1202 01:00:14.599 --> 01:00:18.239 From that point, I think that December of twenty three 1203 01:00:18.440 --> 01:00:22.599 leading in at twenty four, we actually I had gotten 1204 01:00:22.599 --> 01:00:24.360 a little bit of money from the crowdfunding. 1205 01:00:24.880 --> 01:00:28.599 It wasn't overly successful. 1206 01:00:27.320 --> 01:00:32.440 But due to all the outboring of marketing that I 1207 01:00:32.480 --> 01:00:35.840 did for the crowdfunding, a production company reached out. 1208 01:00:36.119 --> 01:00:37.119 I got connected with I. 1209 01:00:37.079 --> 01:00:42.519 Should say they're now called Substance, and they were like, hey, 1210 01:00:42.519 --> 01:00:44.559 we're interested. What do you need. You know, we have 1211 01:00:44.599 --> 01:00:47.840 production facilities. It's like, dude, I really need money. I 1212 01:00:47.880 --> 01:00:50.039 need money so I can edit the movie. And I 1213 01:00:50.079 --> 01:00:53.679 had Amy grumbling, who actually did I should mention did 1214 01:00:53.760 --> 01:00:57.199 the grant writing that and helped with the grant writing. 1215 01:00:57.320 --> 01:00:59.360 We collaborated, but she's the one who really kind of 1216 01:00:59.360 --> 01:01:02.960 put down the first things for the and help really 1217 01:01:02.960 --> 01:01:06.880 was a big part of that grant side. Basically I 1218 01:01:06.920 --> 01:01:08.360 had been paying her out of pocket, but at a 1219 01:01:08.400 --> 01:01:12.280 certain point it self funding reached a limit. But basically 1220 01:01:12.599 --> 01:01:14.480 they were like, hey, so, yeah, how much do you need? 1221 01:01:14.519 --> 01:01:16.239 And I was like, I told the number. They were 1222 01:01:16.239 --> 01:01:18.960 willing to come pretty close to it and also offer 1223 01:01:19.000 --> 01:01:21.719 services and also their filmmakers as well. They do a 1224 01:01:21.760 --> 01:01:24.280 lot of commercial work, but they came on to be 1225 01:01:24.400 --> 01:01:28.639 a co production partner where they're not just giving me money, 1226 01:01:28.679 --> 01:01:30.559 but they're actually invested in the film in a lot 1227 01:01:30.559 --> 01:01:33.480 of different ways and the success of the film, and 1228 01:01:34.360 --> 01:01:38.039 really from that point in twenty four is when we 1229 01:01:38.079 --> 01:01:39.679 went and filmed with Mark Marin. 1230 01:01:40.039 --> 01:01:41.719 That's when we went to the Ambi's. 1231 01:01:41.880 --> 01:01:45.920 We went out on AirFest and followed Ronald and got 1232 01:01:46.039 --> 01:01:49.840 a lot of the cinema their tay stuff. Prior to that, 1233 01:01:49.880 --> 01:01:51.719 a lot of the stuff was really just talking head 1234 01:01:51.719 --> 01:01:53.880 and I really wanted it to be a mix of 1235 01:01:53.920 --> 01:01:57.280 the two, and we were able to really kind of 1236 01:01:57.320 --> 01:01:59.800 catch Ronald as he was kind of on this big upswing, 1237 01:02:00.320 --> 01:02:02.719 you know, in December and of December, after he agreed 1238 01:02:02.760 --> 01:02:04.880 to be part of the film. He had been on 1239 01:02:04.920 --> 01:02:08.199 the list for the New York Times best podcast I 1240 01:02:08.280 --> 01:02:11.960 think a few other lists that're getting right now think 1241 01:02:12.000 --> 01:02:16.400 culture as well, and was top independent podcaster to watch 1242 01:02:16.480 --> 01:02:19.480 and had been nominated for the Amby's, So we really 1243 01:02:20.360 --> 01:02:22.960 had this opportunity to capt him in this moment where 1244 01:02:23.000 --> 01:02:25.159 a lot of things were happening. 1245 01:02:24.760 --> 01:02:25.639 That we could capture. 1246 01:02:26.000 --> 01:02:28.519 So it's really lucky that those other subjects dropped out 1247 01:02:28.559 --> 01:02:31.119 because the stuff we had captured with them, it was 1248 01:02:31.119 --> 01:02:33.159 really kind of them at their house, maybe them doing 1249 01:02:33.159 --> 01:02:36.480 some production meetings, but really wasn't as dynamic, I think 1250 01:02:36.519 --> 01:02:39.800 as what we were able to capture with Ronald, including 1251 01:02:40.760 --> 01:02:44.880 being at the Ambyes when he swept spoiler alert when 1252 01:02:45.039 --> 01:02:47.880 sweeps the Ambes, and we're there to capture those. 1253 01:02:47.719 --> 01:02:49.719 Moments, and you've seen the film. 1254 01:02:49.760 --> 01:02:53.599 The film is not about him necessary, it's not about 1255 01:02:54.400 --> 01:02:56.239 winning the Ambies. 1256 01:02:56.559 --> 01:02:58.239 The film is really about what does it take. 1257 01:02:58.119 --> 01:03:02.400 To be an independent creator and the struggles that entails, 1258 01:03:02.400 --> 01:03:09.559 and the commitment and the juxtaposition between claim and financial wellbeing, 1259 01:03:10.199 --> 01:03:14.599 as I think most independent artists can probably sympathize with. 1260 01:03:15.320 --> 01:03:17.239 But as well as like a history lesson on where 1261 01:03:17.280 --> 01:03:19.840 podcasting came from, we try to highlight some of it. 1262 01:03:19.880 --> 01:03:23.039 I think we can't highlight everything that's important that's happened 1263 01:03:23.079 --> 01:03:25.119 in podcasting, but I think we were able to highlight 1264 01:03:25.280 --> 01:03:28.880 some of the really big moments that kind of broke 1265 01:03:29.000 --> 01:03:32.320 through into the mainstream that most people may have heard about. 1266 01:03:32.920 --> 01:03:35.960 The film is really one of the goals is to 1267 01:03:36.960 --> 01:03:40.440 show podcasting as an art form and as something to 1268 01:03:40.480 --> 01:03:43.360 be respected in the same way as film or novels 1269 01:03:43.480 --> 01:03:47.519 or television or any kind of art form that people 1270 01:03:47.559 --> 01:03:50.079 put time into and love and have a passion for, 1271 01:03:50.239 --> 01:03:51.280 as you probably know. 1272 01:03:51.360 --> 01:03:55.480 Mike, Yeah, No, it's a really fascinating mix of those stories. 1273 01:03:55.480 --> 01:03:59.519 And then to have Ron be your narrator for so 1274 01:03:59.599 --> 01:04:02.079 much of it that really injects him into the story 1275 01:04:02.119 --> 01:04:03.360 a lot earlier. There you go. 1276 01:04:04.079 --> 01:04:07.840 I even pushed back on that terminology. Consider him to 1277 01:04:07.880 --> 01:04:08.719 be the host of now. 1278 01:04:09.599 --> 01:04:12.639 The first documentary we did about Fat Records, it's fast, 1279 01:04:12.679 --> 01:04:16.719 it's grungy, it's got a lot of energy to it. 1280 01:04:16.760 --> 01:04:20.360 And because it was really the production, a lot of 1281 01:04:20.400 --> 01:04:23.239 it had to do with Spig Scrappy and building on 1282 01:04:23.280 --> 01:04:25.719 different cameras and all this kind of stuff. But we 1283 01:04:25.840 --> 01:04:28.440 leaned into that and made it where it kind of 1284 01:04:28.440 --> 01:04:30.320 represented what you kind of get the feel of a 1285 01:04:30.320 --> 01:04:34.880 punk rock album is Short has that kind of frantic energy. 1286 01:04:35.000 --> 01:04:37.079 It's especially that kind of punk rock that we were 1287 01:04:37.079 --> 01:04:41.280 trying to give a feeling of. And with this film, 1288 01:04:41.519 --> 01:04:43.440 one of the great things about having Ellen come on 1289 01:04:44.360 --> 01:04:48.079 was she's a storyteller and worked with narrative production storytelling, 1290 01:04:48.760 --> 01:04:51.760 and we really wanted to introduce those elements into the film. 1291 01:04:51.880 --> 01:04:56.000 So it's not the structure and a. 1292 01:04:55.960 --> 01:04:58.360 Lot of the production, the sound design and even some 1293 01:04:58.480 --> 01:05:01.480 of the choices we made, we're more in line is like, 1294 01:05:01.719 --> 01:05:04.079 we wanted it to feel like it could be an 1295 01:05:04.079 --> 01:05:06.639 episode of this American life, or at least sections of it, 1296 01:05:06.800 --> 01:05:10.199 or it would feel like a narrative podcast because there's 1297 01:05:10.239 --> 01:05:13.000 a lot of what we're the story kind of storytelling 1298 01:05:13.039 --> 01:05:16.400 we're talking about, so that if we did our jobs right, 1299 01:05:16.480 --> 01:05:19.599 and I hope we did, it should feel different than 1300 01:05:19.639 --> 01:05:22.639 a regular documentary. It should feel a little bit like 1301 01:05:22.840 --> 01:05:25.400 if someone is a fan of narrative podcasting, you're getting 1302 01:05:25.480 --> 01:05:29.960 that self aware host that's not just a narrator, but 1303 01:05:30.000 --> 01:05:33.239 they're commenting on the things happening in the film, but 1304 01:05:33.360 --> 01:05:35.480 also they're guiding you in a lot of the same 1305 01:05:35.559 --> 01:05:38.280 way as a host would guide you in an audio 1306 01:05:38.440 --> 01:05:42.719 only narrative podcast. So it was really built as a 1307 01:05:42.800 --> 01:05:45.639 hybrid between those two kind of philosophies. There's a lot 1308 01:05:45.639 --> 01:05:48.800 of things that you wouldn't necessarily do in a traditional 1309 01:05:48.840 --> 01:05:53.159 documentary that we did and hopefully an attempt to create 1310 01:05:53.199 --> 01:05:57.119 something that felt a little different and kind of honored 1311 01:05:57.159 --> 01:05:59.559 a little bit of the kind of production that we 1312 01:05:59.559 --> 01:06:01.079 were trying to represent. 1313 01:06:02.000 --> 01:06:04.639 Well, not only does the movie sound like a million bucks, 1314 01:06:04.639 --> 01:06:07.639 but it looks like a million bucks just the cinematography 1315 01:06:07.760 --> 01:06:10.599 and the quality of the images. It looks fantastic. 1316 01:06:11.320 --> 01:06:11.920 Oh my gosh. 1317 01:06:12.039 --> 01:06:13.519 I think it's one of those things when you work 1318 01:06:13.519 --> 01:06:18.199 on something so closely like it's hard to have perspective 1319 01:06:18.199 --> 01:06:18.920 on her anymore. 1320 01:06:19.599 --> 01:06:21.760 So I'm really glad to hear you say that. 1321 01:06:21.760 --> 01:06:23.360 That was one of our goals, is we wanted to 1322 01:06:23.400 --> 01:06:30.199 bring cinematic qualities to the production, And yeah, I have 1323 01:06:30.280 --> 01:06:33.360 something that was high quality, you know. And I'm so glad. 1324 01:06:33.119 --> 01:06:37.199 She you use the technique too, which I found interesting. 1325 01:06:37.239 --> 01:06:40.800 There were certain shots that felt a little like stock 1326 01:06:40.840 --> 01:06:43.599 shot stuff you buy. But then as I'm watching it, 1327 01:06:43.639 --> 01:06:46.079 I'm like, no, I think they've shot these for the film, 1328 01:06:46.119 --> 01:06:49.239 because those kind of comment on what's going on in 1329 01:06:49.280 --> 01:06:50.199 the movie as well. 1330 01:06:51.000 --> 01:06:52.000 There's definitely a mix. 1331 01:06:52.079 --> 01:06:55.559 There's stuff that we shot, definitely, but there were just 1332 01:06:55.599 --> 01:06:57.840 things that might have been impossible to shoot, so we 1333 01:06:58.000 --> 01:07:01.280 tried to find things that kind of felt like that. 1334 01:07:02.000 --> 01:07:03.480 So I don't know if I'm telling too much, but yeah, 1335 01:07:03.480 --> 01:07:05.679 we used some stock footage in there, but we also 1336 01:07:05.760 --> 01:07:09.480 did things where we shot stuff ourselves to mix in 1337 01:07:09.599 --> 01:07:13.639 so it felt blended and it gave that appearance that 1338 01:07:13.719 --> 01:07:16.559 we hopefully couldn't tell the stuff that we shot versus 1339 01:07:16.639 --> 01:07:19.159 what we did, because we did use some city shots 1340 01:07:19.159 --> 01:07:21.360 and people running and things like that. 1341 01:07:22.760 --> 01:07:24.360 But we try to be thoughtful about what. 1342 01:07:24.280 --> 01:07:26.960 We're using, how it looked, and did it match the 1343 01:07:27.039 --> 01:07:29.119 vibe of all the other things we were trying to do. 1344 01:07:30.239 --> 01:07:33.280 One other thing that we did, and I was a 1345 01:07:33.280 --> 01:07:36.880 little nervous about this, we did our premiere at the 1346 01:07:36.880 --> 01:07:38.639 Oak Cliff Film Festival, and that was really the first 1347 01:07:38.679 --> 01:07:40.760 time I got to see it on a real big screen. 1348 01:07:41.440 --> 01:07:43.880 And one of the things that we did, which is 1349 01:07:43.960 --> 01:07:45.760 kind of breaking a little bit of a rule and 1350 01:07:45.800 --> 01:07:47.639 really a film, is. 1351 01:07:48.000 --> 01:07:49.440 There's a lot of close ups. 1352 01:07:49.800 --> 01:07:53.039 It's a close and like an extreme close up rather 1353 01:07:53.079 --> 01:07:56.559 than what would be in film terminology like a mid 1354 01:07:56.639 --> 01:07:59.760 shot and a close up. I didn't want to do 1355 01:07:59.840 --> 01:08:01.639 the thing where you saw the person sitting in the 1356 01:08:01.719 --> 01:08:06.559 chair and it's nice background and very netflixy kind of thing, 1357 01:08:06.559 --> 01:08:09.559 which is gorgeous. I'm not putting that down by any means, 1358 01:08:09.639 --> 01:08:12.599 but early on with my cinematographer, I was like, I 1359 01:08:12.639 --> 01:08:17.319 think we should do something close and closer so we 1360 01:08:17.359 --> 01:08:22.560 can visually represent the intimacy of podcasting. They're in your ear, 1361 01:08:22.680 --> 01:08:24.560 and I really wanted it to be kind of mouth 1362 01:08:24.600 --> 01:08:28.199 and ear. That's where a lot of the close ups 1363 01:08:28.239 --> 01:08:31.800 are their mouth and ear. The thought being we're trying 1364 01:08:31.800 --> 01:08:36.000 to visually give a sense of closeness with the subjects. 1365 01:08:36.359 --> 01:08:36.520 You know. 1366 01:08:36.560 --> 01:08:39.359 I got a little pushback for my service because, like 1367 01:08:39.359 --> 01:08:42.800 I said, we're breaking a rule which could make people uncomfortable. 1368 01:08:42.880 --> 01:08:45.000 It's one of the dangers of doing something that close 1369 01:08:45.279 --> 01:08:47.720 for that period of time. But I also felt like 1370 01:08:47.760 --> 01:08:50.399 what we would do is eventually make it so you're 1371 01:08:50.479 --> 01:08:52.720 not that close all the time. 1372 01:08:53.359 --> 01:08:56.319 Even with Ronald we do a lot or really close 1373 01:08:56.359 --> 01:08:56.800 stuff with. 1374 01:08:57.039 --> 01:08:58.960 Like super close, where it's like really just his mouth 1375 01:08:59.000 --> 01:09:01.359 and the microphone, then maybe the side of his face, 1376 01:09:01.399 --> 01:09:03.039 but you're not really seeing his eyes as much. 1377 01:09:03.039 --> 01:09:04.079 You're really just seeing his. 1378 01:09:04.079 --> 01:09:08.560 Mouth talking, and that was also a you know, a 1379 01:09:08.600 --> 01:09:10.560 little bit of a risk. But the feedback that I've 1380 01:09:10.560 --> 01:09:12.880 gotten so far as people like it and they felt 1381 01:09:12.880 --> 01:09:15.520 like it was a cool choice and it creates some 1382 01:09:15.640 --> 01:09:18.920 visual language for the film that I hope translates well. 1383 01:09:19.399 --> 01:09:21.119 Like I said, when you're deep in the thick of 1384 01:09:21.119 --> 01:09:22.880 it for seven years, I just get used to seeing it. 1385 01:09:22.920 --> 01:09:24.680 So I don't know how it feels to someone new, 1386 01:09:25.560 --> 01:09:27.600 but it seemed to work, I think, for what we're doing, 1387 01:09:28.079 --> 01:09:32.000 and also hopefully make something that doesn't feel like something 1388 01:09:32.039 --> 01:09:34.119 you've seen over and over again. Nothing wrong with that, 1389 01:09:34.159 --> 01:09:37.279 but I wanted to have that little differentiation. 1390 01:09:38.000 --> 01:09:40.000 It's a risk. Everything's a risk, you know. I mean, 1391 01:09:40.039 --> 01:09:41.000 hopefully it works. 1392 01:09:41.880 --> 01:09:44.039 You get so sick of just seeing white guys in 1393 01:09:44.119 --> 01:09:47.920 suits looking off into the middle distance talking to somebody 1394 01:09:47.920 --> 01:09:49.960 that you don't even know who they are because the 1395 01:09:50.000 --> 01:09:52.239 camera man's over here and they're looking over there, and 1396 01:09:52.279 --> 01:09:54.840 you're just like, can you look at me? So that 1397 01:09:54.960 --> 01:09:57.920 you lose that intimacy. But yeah, getting those nice shots 1398 01:09:57.960 --> 01:10:01.920 of Ron's mouth, I'm just like, oh, yeah, that's really nice. 1399 01:10:02.079 --> 01:10:03.600 And then even when it comes to some of the 1400 01:10:03.640 --> 01:10:06.560 other close ups, that you're doing. It feels like I 1401 01:10:06.920 --> 01:10:08.920 was talking to me, feels like these people are talking 1402 01:10:08.920 --> 01:10:11.239 to me rather than just the director. 1403 01:10:12.000 --> 01:10:14.000 Yeah, it's And then we have a few moments where 1404 01:10:14.119 --> 01:10:16.359 could we do a little bit of the off center thing, 1405 01:10:16.399 --> 01:10:19.039 but we all have a few moments where people will 1406 01:10:19.199 --> 01:10:21.640 look into the camera right down the barrel and it's 1407 01:10:21.720 --> 01:10:24.840 used for comedic effect, and there's I hope it's funny. 1408 01:10:25.000 --> 01:10:26.560 That's I mean, that's one of the goals we want 1409 01:10:26.600 --> 01:10:28.520 to Especially early on in the film, we're kind of 1410 01:10:28.560 --> 01:10:32.199 set up how this technology came to be, and the 1411 01:10:32.279 --> 01:10:36.199 important part isn't necessarily technology. The important part is the 1412 01:10:36.239 --> 01:10:39.840 fact that this technology allowed anyone to do it. We 1413 01:10:39.920 --> 01:10:41.960 felt like it was important to have an understanding, at 1414 01:10:42.000 --> 01:10:45.119 least at some cursory level, for people to understand like, oh, 1415 01:10:45.199 --> 01:10:49.279 this kind of code that these people did allowed for 1416 01:10:50.079 --> 01:10:54.039 anyone to make this that no one controls it now. 1417 01:10:54.319 --> 01:10:57.079 You know, nowadays there's a lot more money into it. 1418 01:10:57.119 --> 01:11:00.960 But right now, anyone can start a podcast. And this 1419 01:11:01.119 --> 01:11:03.439 was before YouTube, but anyone can do a YouTube now, 1420 01:11:03.479 --> 01:11:05.079 and n can do a TikTok now, and I think 1421 01:11:05.119 --> 01:11:07.840 that's a wonderful thing. I think that that's a really 1422 01:11:07.880 --> 01:11:10.239 cool thing. But podcasting was kind of one of that 1423 01:11:10.319 --> 01:11:14.439 first thing that you could make and distribute all over 1424 01:11:14.479 --> 01:11:16.720 the Internet and didn't have to pay anyone. There was 1425 01:11:16.760 --> 01:11:20.840 no advertising, you weren't enriching another platform. 1426 01:11:21.359 --> 01:11:23.720 At the time. It was platformless. 1427 01:11:24.279 --> 01:11:27.239 You just had to have people subscribe to this little 1428 01:11:27.239 --> 01:11:27.960 bit of code. 1429 01:11:28.399 --> 01:11:31.399 And we had it much longer in the film at 1430 01:11:31.439 --> 01:11:31.840 one point. 1431 01:11:31.840 --> 01:11:34.760 But if he were like, it's too much technical, but 1432 01:11:34.840 --> 01:11:36.600 I really pushed back when we were trying to do 1433 01:11:36.600 --> 01:11:38.119 we need to even talk about RSS? 1434 01:11:38.399 --> 01:11:40.000 It's like I think we do. 1435 01:11:40.239 --> 01:11:43.079 I think people even if we need, it's just a 1436 01:11:43.119 --> 01:11:48.159 basic level without being too boring, how can we make 1437 01:11:48.199 --> 01:11:51.399 this fun? And it also explained like this little piece 1438 01:11:51.439 --> 01:11:55.239 of code really allowed for anyone's voice to be heard 1439 01:11:55.239 --> 01:11:59.640 over the Internet, and I think that allows for independent 1440 01:11:59.680 --> 01:12:03.359 creators to exist because a platform doesn't own RSS. And 1441 01:12:03.399 --> 01:12:05.960 even though I would say RSS hams limitations and there's 1442 01:12:07.399 --> 01:12:11.119 podcasting two point zero and there's these technologies that they're 1443 01:12:11.119 --> 01:12:14.520 not as widespread, RSS still is what. 1444 01:12:14.520 --> 01:12:16.479 The backbone of what's going on. 1445 01:12:16.560 --> 01:12:19.119 And even though YouTube is the number one place people 1446 01:12:19.119 --> 01:12:21.239 listen to podcasts, what did they do? They ended up 1447 01:12:21.239 --> 01:12:25.319 integrating RSS into their thing eventually, and I think there's 1448 01:12:25.359 --> 01:12:30.159 something to be said about that open nature. Someone doesn't 1449 01:12:30.159 --> 01:12:32.479 want to go on Spotify, if someone doesn't want to 1450 01:12:32.520 --> 01:12:34.960 go on YouTube, if someone doesn't want to give money 1451 01:12:34.960 --> 01:12:38.399 to TikTok for whatever reason, and I'm not suggesting they do. 1452 01:12:38.760 --> 01:12:41.079 I'm just saying, if they want to, you can still 1453 01:12:41.119 --> 01:12:44.359 put out a podcast via RSS and have it distributed 1454 01:12:44.439 --> 01:12:44.840 all over. 1455 01:12:45.640 --> 01:12:46.600 So I think that's the thing. 1456 01:12:46.960 --> 01:12:48.399 Like I said, we don't try to in the film 1457 01:12:48.399 --> 01:12:51.880 try to make it just about that. We want there 1458 01:12:51.960 --> 01:12:55.520 to be the technical, but also the emotional And what 1459 01:12:55.520 --> 01:12:58.640 did that allow? What's the point of talking about RSS? 1460 01:12:58.920 --> 01:13:04.279 And I think hopefully by going through Ronald's journey you 1461 01:13:04.319 --> 01:13:07.399 can see what that allowed for someone to just say, hey, 1462 01:13:07.399 --> 01:13:09.800 I want to do this and just start doing it. 1463 01:13:10.479 --> 01:13:12.600 Man. I was very rewarding, you know. 1464 01:13:12.840 --> 01:13:18.520 It's also to get to that point was extremely intense. 1465 01:13:19.039 --> 01:13:22.880 As you are heading towards a world premiere, you know, 1466 01:13:23.159 --> 01:13:27.640 there's so much work that has to happen, and it 1467 01:13:27.720 --> 01:13:30.560 was really hard to enjoy it fully because it was 1468 01:13:30.680 --> 01:13:34.239 so intense getting to that point, like a couple months 1469 01:13:34.279 --> 01:13:37.640 of just thousands of hours of work and really just 1470 01:13:37.680 --> 01:13:40.039 being so close to it. I was able to enjoy it, 1471 01:13:40.800 --> 01:13:42.560 but I'm hoping as I get to see it with 1472 01:13:43.000 --> 01:13:46.560 other audiences, now that pressure of the first one is gone, 1473 01:13:47.079 --> 01:13:50.640 that I can enjoy it without having that tension, you know, 1474 01:13:50.720 --> 01:13:52.479 and worrying about like, oh, there's going to be a 1475 01:13:52.520 --> 01:13:54.720 black frame, or there is there going. 1476 01:13:54.680 --> 01:13:57.479 To be an audio cutout, or what did I miss? 1477 01:13:58.319 --> 01:14:01.479 Because leading up to that screen it was to get 1478 01:14:01.520 --> 01:14:02.319 it over the finish line. 1479 01:14:02.399 --> 01:14:04.000 We were just really working on it up until the 1480 01:14:04.039 --> 01:14:07.279 last minute, which tends to be how I operate. 1481 01:14:07.399 --> 01:14:12.720 Unfortunately, having that deadline really pushes you to really lock in. 1482 01:14:13.319 --> 01:14:17.239 But now subsequent screenings, we're hoping to do some screenings 1483 01:14:17.239 --> 01:14:20.119 here coming up. It's looking like we're going to have 1484 01:14:20.239 --> 01:14:23.560 a big one at some of the podcast conferences coming up. 1485 01:14:23.640 --> 01:14:26.640 I don't want to say too much until I know 1486 01:14:26.760 --> 01:14:31.439 one hundred percent, but things are in processed for some 1487 01:14:31.479 --> 01:14:33.239 of the bigger podcast conferences. 1488 01:14:33.640 --> 01:14:35.199 I'm being vague on purpose. 1489 01:14:35.520 --> 01:14:38.640 But I think the next screening we get to do, 1490 01:14:38.760 --> 01:14:41.119 I'll get to really enjoy it because I think it'll 1491 01:14:41.119 --> 01:14:45.720 be to our core audience, which are I think it's 1492 01:14:45.760 --> 01:14:48.039 a love letter to podcasters, to be honest with you, 1493 01:14:48.680 --> 01:14:51.800 I've had some feedback from some people that are podcasters, 1494 01:14:52.399 --> 01:14:56.119 specifically Dalve Taylor and some other people that I've heard from, 1495 01:14:56.800 --> 01:14:59.800 saying that they felt really seen by the documentary that 1496 01:14:59.840 --> 01:15:03.319 they like, oh, this is the struggle of doing this 1497 01:15:03.960 --> 01:15:07.840 and showing not just the front end of the podcast, 1498 01:15:08.520 --> 01:15:11.479 showing a little bit of what it takes to make 1499 01:15:11.560 --> 01:15:14.319 it happen, and the kind of dedication and the kind 1500 01:15:14.359 --> 01:15:18.399 of commitment to doing that kind of work, which I 1501 01:15:18.439 --> 01:15:21.199 have a tremendous respect for podcasters. 1502 01:15:21.279 --> 01:15:22.439 I mean after doing this. 1503 01:15:22.359 --> 01:15:24.840 Because at least when I was making the movie, I'm 1504 01:15:24.880 --> 01:15:26.920 doing it behind the scenes. It took seven years, but 1505 01:15:27.439 --> 01:15:30.880 I'm not presenting what I'm doing every day or every 1506 01:15:30.920 --> 01:15:33.720 week or every other day or depending on your cadence 1507 01:15:33.720 --> 01:15:34.479 of your podcast. 1508 01:15:34.840 --> 01:15:37.880 And I can stop. I could stop for a. 1509 01:15:37.880 --> 01:15:40.560 Couple months at a time to try and raise money 1510 01:15:40.680 --> 01:15:43.079 or do whatever I needed to do, but I wasn't 1511 01:15:43.079 --> 01:15:46.119 committed to publishing something every week every day. 1512 01:15:47.000 --> 01:15:48.279 That's a huge commitment. 1513 01:15:48.439 --> 01:15:51.159 That's why I have a lot of respect for YouTubers 1514 01:15:51.159 --> 01:15:55.079 as well, and anyone who's showing up every week every day. 1515 01:15:55.199 --> 01:15:56.520 That is a different kind of thing. 1516 01:15:56.600 --> 01:16:00.000 Because I get to as a documentary and I've worked 1517 01:16:00.079 --> 01:16:03.239 on my thing till I felt it was ready, and 1518 01:16:03.479 --> 01:16:05.640 that's just not the case. If you're a podcaster, it 1519 01:16:05.680 --> 01:16:08.159 has to go out that next week. You have a deadline, 1520 01:16:08.399 --> 01:16:12.079 and if you miss that deadline, no one's gonna punish you, 1521 01:16:13.000 --> 01:16:15.479 but you're going to have a drop off an audience, 1522 01:16:15.560 --> 01:16:19.920 because if you're doing something every week or once a 1523 01:16:19.960 --> 01:16:23.119 month or whatever, that cadence is your audience that you've 1524 01:16:23.159 --> 01:16:25.960 built up. They're expecting that, and if you've done a 1525 01:16:26.039 --> 01:16:29.039 good job, it's become part of their life. And if 1526 01:16:29.079 --> 01:16:31.680 you don't show up that first week, that second week, 1527 01:16:32.159 --> 01:16:35.119 it's very easy for someone to go to something else, 1528 01:16:35.399 --> 01:16:37.359 not because they're mad at you, just because they're going 1529 01:16:37.399 --> 01:16:40.960 to fill that space with something and you have to 1530 01:16:40.960 --> 01:16:42.319 show up over and over again. 1531 01:16:42.880 --> 01:16:45.119 And I have a big respect for that. 1532 01:16:45.800 --> 01:16:48.159 It's kind of nice you not only can show stuff 1533 01:16:48.159 --> 01:16:51.039 at podcast festivals, but then also film festivals as well, 1534 01:16:51.079 --> 01:16:53.960 which is great to have two forums there for you. 1535 01:16:54.800 --> 01:16:58.159 My thinking and I think podcasting is really you know, 1536 01:16:58.279 --> 01:17:02.760 we started podcasting with becoming mainstream for sure, but I 1537 01:17:02.800 --> 01:17:06.399 think now isn't necessarily convincing someone why they should listen 1538 01:17:06.439 --> 01:17:10.800 to a podcast. I think the film should show why 1539 01:17:10.840 --> 01:17:13.600 you should respect the people that are doing this and 1540 01:17:13.640 --> 01:17:18.439 like the joke that everyone has a podcast, I mean, hahaha, funny, funny, yeah, 1541 01:17:18.479 --> 01:17:20.920 but the people who really do it and take it seriously. 1542 01:17:21.079 --> 01:17:23.840 It's an art form to be respected. It's something that 1543 01:17:23.880 --> 01:17:27.000 people shouldn't take for granted. If they their favorite podcaster, 1544 01:17:27.199 --> 01:17:30.760 they can see what it takes to do this, maybe 1545 01:17:30.760 --> 01:17:32.840 they're like, hey, maybe I should contribute to that Patreon. 1546 01:17:33.439 --> 01:17:35.399 From your mouth to their ears. 1547 01:17:35.520 --> 01:17:38.199 I mean, I like it, and the film, like as you, 1548 01:17:38.319 --> 01:17:40.279 I don't want to spoil too much, but we have 1549 01:17:40.479 --> 01:17:44.560 the host drop his Patreon in the film. And when 1550 01:17:44.560 --> 01:17:48.199 we were recording Ronald's parts and he was like, no, no, no, 1551 01:17:48.880 --> 01:17:51.159 drop your Patreon. We're talking about Patreon. You should drop 1552 01:17:51.199 --> 01:17:53.840 your Patreon. Because that's what a podcaster would do. If 1553 01:17:53.880 --> 01:17:56.920 they're talking about Patreon, they would mention that they have 1554 01:17:56.960 --> 01:18:00.159 a Patreon. It's like, and we should show that, like, 1555 01:18:00.159 --> 01:18:01.520 we should show that kind of thing. 1556 01:18:02.279 --> 01:18:03.640 You know. One of the other things we do in 1557 01:18:03.680 --> 01:18:05.439 the film is we have. 1558 01:18:05.359 --> 01:18:09.239 A host read ad where the host turns to camera 1559 01:18:09.439 --> 01:18:12.600 and basically stock what he's doing and does an ad basically, 1560 01:18:13.239 --> 01:18:16.439 which we wanted to include that because we wanted to 1561 01:18:16.479 --> 01:18:20.680 have that kind of feeling like, oh, okay, yeah, this 1562 01:18:20.800 --> 01:18:21.399 is like a host. 1563 01:18:21.680 --> 01:18:24.479 That's what I say. He's not a narrator as much 1564 01:18:24.520 --> 01:18:27.760 as a host. He's active within the film. 1565 01:18:28.600 --> 01:18:30.720 So, Sean, where's the best place for people to keep 1566 01:18:30.800 --> 01:18:32.000 up with the movie and where it's showing? 1567 01:18:32.680 --> 01:18:36.880 Aoa movie dot Com is our website, which, to be 1568 01:18:36.920 --> 01:18:39.279 honest with you, just really takes you to our Instagram 1569 01:18:39.279 --> 01:18:41.239 for now. I have a website that'll be going up 1570 01:18:41.279 --> 01:18:43.520 here in the next week or so that'll have some 1571 01:18:43.600 --> 01:18:45.680 of the press that we've gotten in links to all 1572 01:18:45.720 --> 01:18:47.760 those kind of things in the trailer. But if you 1573 01:18:47.840 --> 01:18:51.399 go to our Instagram, there are the links to the 1574 01:18:51.439 --> 01:18:54.039 trailer and you'll be able to see what's going on. 1575 01:18:54.119 --> 01:18:54.600 We've been a. 1576 01:18:54.520 --> 01:18:59.720 Little dormant since the screening as there's kind of things happening. 1577 01:18:59.760 --> 01:19:03.680 There's people we're talking to, but I think through August 1578 01:19:03.680 --> 01:19:04.279 and going. 1579 01:19:04.119 --> 01:19:06.399 Forward to Price see a lot more stuff that is 1580 01:19:06.439 --> 01:19:08.199 going to be happening. Also, to be. 1581 01:19:08.239 --> 01:19:10.359 Honest with you, leading up to the premiere, it was 1582 01:19:10.439 --> 01:19:13.399 so intense that I needed a chance to step back 1583 01:19:13.439 --> 01:19:15.920 a little bit. And we have a new poster that's 1584 01:19:15.960 --> 01:19:18.239 going to be coming out. We have a really really 1585 01:19:18.239 --> 01:19:21.680 great poster that we worked with an amazing artist with 1586 01:19:22.359 --> 01:19:26.119 that really kind of leans into Our current poster is 1587 01:19:26.119 --> 01:19:30.520 our art poster, which is very metaphorical and artsy, but 1588 01:19:30.600 --> 01:19:32.960 this other one really kind of leads into the podcast 1589 01:19:33.039 --> 01:19:35.520 side of it all and has a more familiar thing 1590 01:19:35.960 --> 01:19:38.520 that people might recognize. It really kind of speaks to 1591 01:19:39.600 --> 01:19:42.359 some of the content of the film as far as. 1592 01:19:43.039 --> 01:19:44.840 A little you'll see it. 1593 01:19:44.840 --> 01:19:50.000 It has an iPod in it, and it really leans 1594 01:19:50.000 --> 01:19:52.600 into that kind of side of it and excited people 1595 01:19:52.600 --> 01:19:57.359 see that, Yeah, a AOA movie. If that's our Instagram, 1596 01:19:57.520 --> 01:20:02.079 that's our TikTok, that's our sessh. Twitter not super active 1597 01:20:02.079 --> 01:20:05.840 on there, but we still have a count there and if. 1598 01:20:05.760 --> 01:20:06.760 You go to AOA Movie. 1599 01:20:07.079 --> 01:20:09.600 For now, it'll go to Instagram, but eventually in the 1600 01:20:09.600 --> 01:20:11.920 next couple of weeks it'll probably lead to a website 1601 01:20:12.000 --> 01:20:13.520 that has more content on it. 1602 01:20:13.560 --> 01:20:15.199 You can follow them where the film is going. 1603 01:20:16.119 --> 01:20:19.199 We will be announcing some of the podcast conferences that 1604 01:20:19.239 --> 01:20:20.119 we're going to be at. 1605 01:20:20.520 --> 01:20:22.680 We're trying to be at the place where podcasters are. 1606 01:20:23.239 --> 01:20:28.199 Film festivals are great, and really want to be as 1607 01:20:28.199 --> 01:20:31.319 many film festival as possible, But I think our core audience. 1608 01:20:31.680 --> 01:20:33.359 The people who I think are really going to be 1609 01:20:33.399 --> 01:20:35.199 the first people to really appreciate the film are going 1610 01:20:35.239 --> 01:20:37.279 to be podcasters, and so you want them to have 1611 01:20:37.319 --> 01:20:39.760 a chance to see it. So we'll probably be at 1612 01:20:39.800 --> 01:20:42.760 some pretty big podcast conferences coming up. 1613 01:20:42.840 --> 01:20:45.319 I hesitant to announce anything. 1614 01:20:46.079 --> 01:20:48.760 Everything's fully locked in, but I would say with a 1615 01:20:48.840 --> 01:20:51.600 lot of confidence that will be at some of the 1616 01:20:51.640 --> 01:20:55.680 ones that you would imagine we would be at. And 1617 01:20:55.800 --> 01:20:58.920 also I'll say, you know, reach out if anyone's listening, 1618 01:20:58.960 --> 01:21:00.800 reach out if you want to set up a screening. 1619 01:21:01.720 --> 01:21:02.680 We are open to that. 1620 01:21:03.159 --> 01:21:05.680 We're trying to take that into account because we really 1621 01:21:05.680 --> 01:21:08.279 want to reach out to our casters and people interested 1622 01:21:08.319 --> 01:21:12.439 in the space and have them be able to see 1623 01:21:12.439 --> 01:21:17.640 the film and talk about it. Because I think that podcasters, specifically, 1624 01:21:18.159 --> 01:21:21.000 if we did our job right, will feel like they're 1625 01:21:21.039 --> 01:21:24.560 being honored, They're being seen that this is a film 1626 01:21:25.039 --> 01:21:28.720 that is for them, but done in a way that 1627 01:21:28.800 --> 01:21:31.840 can bring everyone in to see what they do. 1628 01:21:32.640 --> 01:21:32.800 Well. 1629 01:21:32.800 --> 01:21:34.640 Shawn, thank you so much for your time, and thank 1630 01:21:34.640 --> 01:21:36.359 you so much for the honor being able to watch. 1631 01:21:36.399 --> 01:21:37.439 I really appreciate it. 1632 01:21:38.159 --> 01:21:40.359 Hey, Mike, I really appreciate you giving me the time 1633 01:21:41.039 --> 01:21:43.800 to talk about the movie and also appreciate the kind 1634 01:21:43.800 --> 01:21:46.000 of things you said about how it looks. You know, 1635 01:21:46.079 --> 01:21:49.399 as a filmmaker, I'm hoping that it translates the thing 1636 01:21:49.399 --> 01:21:52.600 that I wanted to and I hope the quality comes across. 1637 01:21:52.840 --> 01:21:55.680 But as a filmmaker, you see all the flaws. So 1638 01:21:55.920 --> 01:21:58.800 it's great to hear from a perspective that you enjoyed 1639 01:21:58.800 --> 01:22:01.439 the film but also felt like it's a high enough 1640 01:22:01.520 --> 01:22:03.239 quality that we are shooting for. 1641 01:22:04.039 --> 01:22:06.640 Oh definitely. Well, I hope we can talk again and 1642 01:22:06.720 --> 01:22:08.840 hopefully maybe less than like seven years or so. 1643 01:22:09.680 --> 01:22:12.319 What we're hoping to do is if the film really 1644 01:22:12.399 --> 01:22:14.319 connects with people. We have a lot of stuff that 1645 01:22:14.439 --> 01:22:16.920 isn't in the film. We did an hour and twenty 1646 01:22:16.960 --> 01:22:19.359 two minute movie. It's really short. We try to make 1647 01:22:19.399 --> 01:22:23.000 it really digestible, and that's with credits, So there's so 1648 01:22:23.159 --> 01:22:26.399 much content of people we talked with that is not 1649 01:22:26.520 --> 01:22:28.560 in the film. I would hope that we might be 1650 01:22:28.600 --> 01:22:31.119 able to tell the stories of some other podcasters as well, 1651 01:22:31.319 --> 01:22:33.520 so it's not just limited to the film. Hopefully it 1652 01:22:33.560 --> 01:22:36.199 may become a thing that we expand beyond just a film, 1653 01:22:36.279 --> 01:22:39.640 maybe a podcast, maybe an age of audio podcast sounds 1654 01:22:39.640 --> 01:22:42.680 cool or something on YouTube that shows a little bit 1655 01:22:42.680 --> 01:22:45.359 more and we can bring in people. So yeah, I'm 1656 01:22:45.399 --> 01:22:47.399 hoping that if it really connects with people, we can 1657 01:22:47.479 --> 01:22:49.800 expand it into something that's a little bit more than 1658 01:22:50.319 --> 01:22:52.159 just a film and really just kind of a movement 1659 01:22:52.800 --> 01:22:58.359 that is centered around the celebration of what makes us 1660 01:22:58.439 --> 01:22:59.079 medium great. 1661 01:23:00.000 --> 01:23:01.840 Thank you so much, sir, This was such a pleasure 1662 01:23:01.920 --> 01:23:02.439 talking with you. 1663 01:23:03.199 --> 01:23:04.840 All right, Mike, appreciate you. Man. 1664 01:23:07.199 --> 01:23:09.000 All right, we were back and we were talking about 1665 01:23:09.000 --> 01:23:12.439 age of Audio and one guy who gets a lot 1666 01:23:12.479 --> 01:23:16.399 of spotlight in this is Kevin Smith. And Kevin Smith 1667 01:23:16.640 --> 01:23:20.279 really took to podcasting so much so that he what 1668 01:23:20.319 --> 01:23:23.039 was it, Chrisky was kind of riffing? Was it with 1669 01:23:23.079 --> 01:23:25.319 Scott Moser or people on this show? 1670 01:23:25.399 --> 01:23:28.960 Is that discussion that that podcast had effectively the first 1671 01:23:29.159 --> 01:23:32.279 movie based on a podcast because Tusk came out of 1672 01:23:32.319 --> 01:23:34.840 that podcast episode where they were talking about that listing 1673 01:23:35.000 --> 01:23:38.079 for the guy who wanted a roommate but you know, 1674 01:23:38.199 --> 01:23:41.159 dress up like a Walris and then you know Walris, yes, Walris? 1675 01:23:41.199 --> 01:23:43.600 No, Like where was that? Like that's I mean again, 1676 01:23:43.640 --> 01:23:47.119 like because movie podcasts don't exist, That's that's. 1677 01:23:46.760 --> 01:23:51.840 Why, Well, Kevin Smith exists, doesn't exist. 1678 01:23:51.520 --> 01:23:52.920 But it's not a movie podcast. 1679 01:23:52.960 --> 01:23:54.920 I guess like this podcast, I think is just like 1680 01:23:54.960 --> 01:23:59.159 a broadly like a pop culture discussion podcast with Kevin Smith. 1681 01:23:59.880 --> 01:24:03.479 I've never listened to an episode. I've heard enough Kevin 1682 01:24:03.479 --> 01:24:06.079 Smith that I don't need to listen to much more 1683 01:24:06.119 --> 01:24:08.159 of him. I mean, it just feels like it would 1684 01:24:08.159 --> 01:24:11.439 be a brocast to me, where it's like, yeah, let's 1685 01:24:11.479 --> 01:24:14.199 talk about smoking weed and how much I love my 1686 01:24:14.239 --> 01:24:17.000 wife's taint, like those kind of things. I don't really 1687 01:24:17.079 --> 01:24:20.159 need that. So Yeah, and when Tess came out, I 1688 01:24:20.199 --> 01:24:21.720 was just like, what the fuck. 1689 01:24:21.560 --> 01:24:21.920 Is this. 1690 01:24:23.439 --> 01:24:24.720 Movie based on a podcast? 1691 01:24:25.079 --> 01:24:29.239 Yeah, and it's interesting to talk about how well they 1692 01:24:29.279 --> 01:24:33.560 talk about how podcasts are reflected via Saturday Night Live, 1693 01:24:33.720 --> 01:24:36.319 but they didn't really go into like, for me, I'm 1694 01:24:36.319 --> 01:24:39.079 not that familiar with Cereal, but I'm familiar with Cereal 1695 01:24:39.199 --> 01:24:43.520 insofar as the parodies of Cereal, not that SNL skit. 1696 01:24:43.680 --> 01:24:47.119 But I remember there being like a I don't even 1697 01:24:47.159 --> 01:24:49.239 remember if it was a YouTube thing or what it was, 1698 01:24:49.279 --> 01:24:53.319 but it was basically like living the life of Sarahcanig 1699 01:24:53.520 --> 01:24:56.840 and this whole thing of like different pronunciations of male 1700 01:24:56.960 --> 01:24:59.560 chimp and that whole male kimp thing that they were doing. 1701 01:24:59.600 --> 01:24:59.640 What. 1702 01:25:00.119 --> 01:25:04.600 I never understood that shit, But it is fascinating for 1703 01:25:04.720 --> 01:25:07.720 me because I'm always interested in how things are reflected 1704 01:25:07.760 --> 01:25:11.319 back through pop culture. So yeah, things like Tusk was 1705 01:25:11.399 --> 01:25:16.239 fascinating insofar as it was about a podcaster only murders 1706 01:25:16.239 --> 01:25:18.880 in the building. I don't know if you guys are 1707 01:25:18.880 --> 01:25:21.960 familiar with the Godzilla series like King of Them, Oh, 1708 01:25:22.039 --> 01:25:24.359 I know you're not James, but King of the Monsters 1709 01:25:24.520 --> 01:25:29.560 and Godzilla X Kong, there is a character in there 1710 01:25:29.600 --> 01:25:31.880 who is a conspiracy theorist podcaster. 1711 01:25:32.640 --> 01:25:36.479 Hello, loyal listeners, Welcome to TTP Titan Truth Podcast, Episode 1712 01:25:36.600 --> 01:25:41.520 number two forty five. Today's today maybe the last podcast 1713 01:25:41.600 --> 01:25:43.520 I ever record. And look, I know I said that 1714 01:25:43.600 --> 01:25:45.239 last week, and yeah, maybe maybe the week before and 1715 01:25:45.239 --> 01:25:47.000 if we were the Toms. But look, this is the point, 1716 01:25:47.239 --> 01:25:50.479 after five years of deep cover at Apex Cybernetics, I'm 1717 01:25:50.479 --> 01:25:53.560 finally taking my shot. Something bad is going on here. 1718 01:25:53.720 --> 01:25:55.279 I don't know what it is, but I'm about to 1719 01:25:55.279 --> 01:25:58.840 walk in and download hard evidence and expose a vast 1720 01:25:59.079 --> 01:26:01.800 corporate conspiracy. Yeah you could call me a whistle blower, 1721 01:26:01.840 --> 01:26:04.159 but I ain't just whistling. I mean, this is more 1722 01:26:04.199 --> 01:26:07.560 than a leak. It's a flood. And believe me, this 1723 01:26:07.680 --> 01:26:11.920 flood it's going to wash away all apexes lies. You 1724 01:26:11.960 --> 01:26:12.640 can believe that. 1725 01:26:14.479 --> 01:26:17.399 It used to be funny for me, but then watching 1726 01:26:17.439 --> 01:26:21.680 it now and in the age of you know, QAnon 1727 01:26:21.840 --> 01:26:24.920 and all these things not very funny. Even if he's 1728 01:26:25.039 --> 01:26:28.199 right that there are giant monsters, but there are things 1729 01:26:28.239 --> 01:26:34.800 in the one with oh Russell from uh Dead Deadpool, 1730 01:26:35.000 --> 01:26:38.119 that one where he showed up where they're talking about 1731 01:26:38.159 --> 01:26:42.359 like using bleach to clean yourself and all this stuff, 1732 01:26:42.359 --> 01:26:44.159 and I'm like, I was telling. 1733 01:26:43.960 --> 01:26:47.800 Me about one or two gallons won't cut itage. I 1734 01:26:47.960 --> 01:26:52.199 need my bleach in bulk because by just as real 1735 01:26:52.279 --> 01:26:54.039 people and it come on on thing. 1736 01:26:54.640 --> 01:26:55.479 That's how we find him. 1737 01:26:55.800 --> 01:26:57.359 The bleach bleach. 1738 01:26:58.119 --> 01:27:03.560 He consumes a ton of bleach, drinks bleach, showers with it. 1739 01:27:04.079 --> 01:27:07.319 Oh show you I shower bleach. You know what prevention 1740 01:27:07.399 --> 01:27:09.079 against organic tracking technology? 1741 01:27:09.640 --> 01:27:12.640 You see that podcast is filling your head with garbage 1742 01:27:13.000 --> 01:27:16.000 and it just makes podcasters look awful. It makes us 1743 01:27:16.039 --> 01:27:19.560 look like we're absolute nutcases, which a lot of us are. 1744 01:27:19.920 --> 01:27:23.640 The beginning of the Halloween reboot, the David Gordon Green movie, 1745 01:27:23.680 --> 01:27:27.239 they're like true crime podcasters that go, you know, to 1746 01:27:27.359 --> 01:27:30.600 bother Michael Myers and then bother Jamie Lee Curtis, and 1747 01:27:30.600 --> 01:27:34.079 then they get fucking murdered because they're because again, like 1748 01:27:34.079 --> 01:27:37.520 they're being portrayed as obnoxious and look, like Mike said, 1749 01:27:37.560 --> 01:27:39.359 I know plenty of obnoxious podcasters. 1750 01:27:40.079 --> 01:27:42.399 I remember when Only Murders in the Building came out, 1751 01:27:42.439 --> 01:27:46.000 and I was I was very snoozy about it because 1752 01:27:46.520 --> 01:27:51.479 it's not a great portrayal of either podcasters or podcast 1753 01:27:51.520 --> 01:27:55.159 fans in that show. I have watched a few. It's 1754 01:27:55.239 --> 01:27:59.680 almost as if the skits that we see in SNL, 1755 01:27:59.800 --> 01:28:01.920 the skits that we see and Only Murders in the 1756 01:28:01.920 --> 01:28:06.199 Building and other things about podcasting and of course you know, 1757 01:28:06.279 --> 01:28:09.680 Joe Rogan and all that kind of stuff, don't paint 1758 01:28:09.760 --> 01:28:12.960 podcasting in the best light that you that we possibly could. 1759 01:28:13.119 --> 01:28:14.880 And that seems to be a bit of a shame, 1760 01:28:15.880 --> 01:28:18.720 you know. I Mean what I found interesting is in 1761 01:28:18.880 --> 01:28:22.359 September last year, Only Murders in the Building came back 1762 01:28:22.359 --> 01:28:25.680 for a fourth season, and so the and so the 1763 01:28:25.720 --> 01:28:30.119 Wirecutter site actually went through all of the audio equipment 1764 01:28:30.319 --> 01:28:33.920 that they used to make their podcast, and guess what, 1765 01:28:34.079 --> 01:28:37.279 it's all chosen for looks. There is no, there is 1766 01:28:37.319 --> 01:28:39.159 no You do not want to buy any of the 1767 01:28:39.159 --> 01:28:42.000 stuff that you see them using, of course, because it's 1768 01:28:42.000 --> 01:28:44.720 a it's a TV, it's a pestich, it's a comedy show, 1769 01:28:45.079 --> 01:28:47.239 and that's kind of you know, how it should be. 1770 01:28:47.359 --> 01:28:51.880 But it doesn't necessarily paint us in a particularly good light, 1771 01:28:52.039 --> 01:28:54.359 and particularly when you then have a look at I mean, 1772 01:28:54.399 --> 01:28:57.359 what what is the main sort of view that most 1773 01:28:58.039 --> 01:29:04.159 that most humans have of podcasters? It's either true crime weirdos, 1774 01:29:04.920 --> 01:29:08.439 or it's people like Joe Rogan, which is not a 1775 01:29:08.520 --> 01:29:12.439 good a good view either, or Bill Simmons or whoever 1776 01:29:12.479 --> 01:29:13.000 that might be. 1777 01:29:13.079 --> 01:29:14.840 What did Bill Simmons doing? Anybody? 1778 01:29:14.920 --> 01:29:15.279 James? 1779 01:29:15.840 --> 01:29:19.000 And then you've got people like Ira Glass or Guy 1780 01:29:19.119 --> 01:29:22.159 Raz you know, people that will be comfortable wearing a 1781 01:29:22.159 --> 01:29:25.199 bow tie. And you've got those three sets of people, 1782 01:29:25.560 --> 01:29:28.840 and I don't think, being fair, either of those people 1783 01:29:29.039 --> 01:29:32.119 necessarily paint podcasting in the light that we would like 1784 01:29:32.199 --> 01:29:36.279 it to be painted in, which, you know, it all 1785 01:29:36.319 --> 01:29:38.079 looks a little bit weird from my point of view. 1786 01:29:38.479 --> 01:29:40.560 I mean, the joke that I always make about podcasting 1787 01:29:40.640 --> 01:29:42.640 is it's just three white dudes in a room bitching 1788 01:29:42.680 --> 01:29:45.520 all the time, and we're fuck, we're here with the 1789 01:29:45.600 --> 01:29:47.039 equation here we. 1790 01:29:46.960 --> 01:29:49.479 Are spoken into existence. 1791 01:29:50.279 --> 01:29:53.079 And I actually appreciate that the movie doesn't focus on 1792 01:29:53.199 --> 01:29:56.600 like a white content creator, Like I appreciate that, like 1793 01:29:57.000 --> 01:30:00.479 you know, yeah, like you know it it it's a 1794 01:30:00.520 --> 01:30:02.840 lot of POC, a lot of women as well, Like 1795 01:30:03.039 --> 01:30:05.720 I like that, Yes, there are plenty white dudes in 1796 01:30:05.760 --> 01:30:09.920 the podcasting sphere, like if not most of these hyper 1797 01:30:10.039 --> 01:30:14.600 successful podcasters are just white men or women, Like we've 1798 01:30:14.640 --> 01:30:17.880 mentioned Joe Rogan, we mentioned Katrina Longworth, like the last 1799 01:30:17.920 --> 01:30:20.640 podcast on the Left, guys Bill Simmons, like they all 1800 01:30:20.680 --> 01:30:23.079 have one thing in common again nothing I mean again, 1801 01:30:23.119 --> 01:30:23.960 like they can't help that. 1802 01:30:24.199 --> 01:30:24.960 It is what it is. 1803 01:30:25.000 --> 01:30:28.680 But like it is kind of a deserved stereotype, but 1804 01:30:28.760 --> 01:30:31.039 an unfair one because I think a lot of people, 1805 01:30:31.079 --> 01:30:33.359 I would say, probably the three of us, bristle at 1806 01:30:33.439 --> 01:30:35.680 that being the case because it makes me uncomfortable because 1807 01:30:35.680 --> 01:30:38.000 I would never want anyone to think like I'm an 1808 01:30:38.000 --> 01:30:42.319 exclusionary content creator. I'm involved in an industry that's exclusionary 1809 01:30:42.359 --> 01:30:45.159 because if anything, what like with weirding Way, like we 1810 01:30:45.239 --> 01:30:47.800 try to be inclusionary, if not go out of our 1811 01:30:47.840 --> 01:30:50.680 way to make sure that people are included, because, like 1812 01:30:50.720 --> 01:30:55.199 we've already mentioned, this industry can't get by on the 1813 01:30:55.239 --> 01:30:59.439 five percent alone. It just can't or whatever. The number 1814 01:30:59.520 --> 01:31:01.119 is probably even smaller than that. 1815 01:31:01.239 --> 01:31:04.760 Frankly, I was appreciative that there were, you know, like 1816 01:31:04.800 --> 01:31:07.600 you said, people of color. I very much make a 1817 01:31:07.640 --> 01:31:10.560 point when it comes to like setting up the schedule 1818 01:31:10.560 --> 01:31:12.439 for next to your shows and those kind of things. 1819 01:31:12.479 --> 01:31:15.760 It's like, Okay, let's get some different voices on here. 1820 01:31:15.920 --> 01:31:18.319 Can't just be white guys all the time. I mean, 1821 01:31:18.439 --> 01:31:21.159 especially when it comes to like movies. Everybody loves movie 1822 01:31:21.159 --> 01:31:24.479 except for James. Everybody loves movies, so it's like, let's 1823 01:31:24.520 --> 01:31:26.399 get all these different points of view. Movies are made 1824 01:31:26.399 --> 01:31:29.079 for so many different people, and watching them you can 1825 01:31:29.079 --> 01:31:31.960 come to things with different perspectives. So I thought that 1826 01:31:32.079 --> 01:31:34.159 was good that there were a lot of different well 1827 01:31:34.239 --> 01:31:36.760 not a lot of different, but some different perspectives in 1828 01:31:36.840 --> 01:31:37.119 this spy. 1829 01:31:37.199 --> 01:31:39.399 Yeah, are there are some. I would say, if you 1830 01:31:39.479 --> 01:31:42.079 watch the trailer, you will get the wrong impression because 1831 01:31:42.119 --> 01:31:45.000 the trailer is almost all white blokes. But as long 1832 01:31:45.039 --> 01:31:47.479 as you actually watch the movie, I think it's very 1833 01:31:47.520 --> 01:31:50.119 clear you know that there are a lot of great 1834 01:31:50.159 --> 01:31:53.279 women have been involved in podcasting all the way through. 1835 01:31:53.319 --> 01:31:57.600 It's a history that's not reflected in the trailer, and 1836 01:31:57.640 --> 01:31:59.119 I think that that's a bit of a mistake. 1837 01:31:59.640 --> 01:32:01.920 Yeah, I would like to have heard from Brook Gladstone 1838 01:32:01.960 --> 01:32:04.319 as much as Ira Glass. You know, I think that 1839 01:32:04.399 --> 01:32:07.159 she brings a lot to the table. You know, I 1840 01:32:07.199 --> 01:32:10.720 mentioned Katrina Longsworth like she is as far as I know, 1841 01:32:10.880 --> 01:32:15.520 the most popular movie podcast are out there again, amazing 1842 01:32:15.600 --> 01:32:18.359 production values, stuff that I'll never be able to attain, 1843 01:32:18.439 --> 01:32:21.279 that's for sure. But yeah, I mean she's knocking it 1844 01:32:21.319 --> 01:32:25.039 out of the park. Well, she's also seasonal, so I 1845 01:32:25.119 --> 01:32:27.119 know because people will come to me when a new 1846 01:32:27.119 --> 01:32:30.199 season starts and say, oh, have you heard the new season? Yeah, 1847 01:32:30.359 --> 01:32:31.439 have you listened to my show? 1848 01:32:31.600 --> 01:32:31.680 No? 1849 01:32:34.319 --> 01:32:36.960 I listen to other people's podcasts. It's a weird question 1850 01:32:37.079 --> 01:32:37.720 to ask me. 1851 01:32:38.039 --> 01:32:42.159 Yeah, yeah, I do try. I do try, But yeah, 1852 01:32:42.199 --> 01:32:44.840 people always recommending shows and I'm just like, I'm sorry, 1853 01:32:44.920 --> 01:32:48.119 I can't. I'm too busy doing my own thing. Not 1854 01:32:48.159 --> 01:32:51.600 only are podcasters portrayed in different media, but then also 1855 01:32:52.000 --> 01:32:56.640 you've got the idea of TV shows or movies being 1856 01:32:56.720 --> 01:32:59.079 based well kind of like Tusk, but being based off 1857 01:32:59.119 --> 01:33:02.479 of podcasts, which is also an interesting thing for me 1858 01:33:02.520 --> 01:33:05.199 where it's like, how do you adapt a podcast to 1859 01:33:05.359 --> 01:33:08.119 a movie or TV show? But they're doing it well. 1860 01:33:08.159 --> 01:33:11.399 If you do something like Loare, it's very easy. I mean, 1861 01:33:11.399 --> 01:33:14.079 when I think of podcasts being adapted into things, I 1862 01:33:14.119 --> 01:33:16.960 think of low other than Tusk and like Lore. I mean, 1863 01:33:17.239 --> 01:33:19.079 I think they did a great job with Lore, but 1864 01:33:19.119 --> 01:33:20.680 it was one of those things where I was like, wow, are. 1865 01:33:20.560 --> 01:33:21.239 You going to do that? 1866 01:33:21.399 --> 01:33:24.520 But again with the format of his show, it made 1867 01:33:24.560 --> 01:33:27.640 perfect sense, like almost again, like people are probably like, 1868 01:33:27.640 --> 01:33:30.000 why isn't this a YouTube video? Like, well, because it's 1869 01:33:30.000 --> 01:33:33.720 an Amazon Prime thing instead. You know, now there's a 1870 01:33:33.720 --> 01:33:35.720 point anymore, like just do it on YouTube. 1871 01:33:36.000 --> 01:33:42.359 The most successful company for taking podcasts into movies and 1872 01:33:42.399 --> 01:33:49.760 into TV is wondering what one but they have done. 1873 01:33:49.880 --> 01:33:52.000 They have done a really good job of taking some 1874 01:33:52.039 --> 01:33:55.880 of their shows, both translating them into other languages and 1875 01:33:55.880 --> 01:33:59.039 doing that properly, but also turning you know, I mean, 1876 01:33:59.119 --> 01:34:03.479 Doctor Death was you know, made into a great TV show. 1877 01:34:03.920 --> 01:34:06.560 Lots of other of their shows have been made in 1878 01:34:06.800 --> 01:34:10.199 integrate TV shows as well, and I think, you know, 1879 01:34:10.880 --> 01:34:14.560 there was thankfully not much talk about podcasting going into 1880 01:34:14.640 --> 01:34:19.800 video on this on this movie, and I'm pleased about that. 1881 01:34:19.520 --> 01:34:22.520 That's one of the things that concerns me an awful 1882 01:34:22.560 --> 01:34:26.079 lot about where this industry is a going. But very 1883 01:34:26.079 --> 01:34:29.560 clearly you could see that serial being made into a 1884 01:34:29.720 --> 01:34:32.920 TV show that's called a documentary, and we have those, 1885 01:34:33.800 --> 01:34:37.399 whereas Joe Rogan is just it's just two people talking 1886 01:34:37.520 --> 01:34:40.239 and it's very easy and cheap to put cameras in there, 1887 01:34:40.439 --> 01:34:42.640 and hey, presto, you've made some video out of it. 1888 01:34:43.399 --> 01:34:45.399 If I was a video content creator, I'd be more 1889 01:34:45.479 --> 01:34:47.680 upset the video podcasts are cutting into what I do 1890 01:34:47.760 --> 01:34:48.760 than the other way around. 1891 01:34:49.680 --> 01:34:51.880 I love hearing James on his show when he's talking 1892 01:34:51.880 --> 01:34:54.479 about what is a podcast? You know that's still a debate. 1893 01:34:54.560 --> 01:34:57.119 There are a lot of videos that I watch or 1894 01:34:57.279 --> 01:34:59.920 video shows that I watch where I guess it would 1895 01:34:59.920 --> 01:35:02.520 be reclassified as a podcast. 1896 01:35:02.600 --> 01:35:02.760 Now. 1897 01:35:02.800 --> 01:35:06.279 The comic Tropes, I love comic Tropes a lot. It's 1898 01:35:06.319 --> 01:35:08.840 a guy talking about comics, and occasionally he cuts a 1899 01:35:08.840 --> 01:35:12.039 way to pandles and shows things that way, but the 1900 01:35:12.039 --> 01:35:14.520 majority of it is kind of like I'm looking at 1901 01:35:14.560 --> 01:35:17.159 you guys right now, dude in front of a microphone, Well, 1902 01:35:17.239 --> 01:35:19.560 I guess you would call it a podcast. I remember 1903 01:35:19.680 --> 01:35:22.399 the Red Letter media guys going frickin' ape shit a 1904 01:35:22.399 --> 01:35:26.119 few years ago when William Shatner's people reached out and 1905 01:35:26.119 --> 01:35:28.479 said that he will not do your podcast, and they're like, 1906 01:35:28.680 --> 01:35:32.359 we're not a podcast by and I'm like, well, kind 1907 01:35:32.399 --> 01:35:34.439 of like these days, I bet you that's what YouTube 1908 01:35:34.439 --> 01:35:36.399 would put you in as well. 1909 01:35:36.680 --> 01:35:40.439 I'm looking forward to go into puncast movement in a 1910 01:35:40.479 --> 01:35:43.520 few weeks. I've got some stickers, and the stickers that 1911 01:35:43.560 --> 01:35:46.760 I've got are all very fancy, and they say something 1912 01:35:46.800 --> 01:35:50.880 for your ears when your eyes are busy. That's what 1913 01:35:50.920 --> 01:35:53.079 a podcast is. It's something for your ears when your 1914 01:35:53.119 --> 01:35:56.079 eyes are busy. It might have some video attached to it, 1915 01:35:56.319 --> 01:36:00.039 that's absolutely fine, go gamebusters on that. But if it 1916 01:36:00.079 --> 01:36:03.399 doesn't work in audio form, it is not a podcast. 1917 01:36:03.560 --> 01:36:06.439 And the thing that is concerning me an awful lot 1918 01:36:06.479 --> 01:36:10.039 is listening to shows where you suddenly realize, oh, this 1919 01:36:10.159 --> 01:36:13.079 is just audio from a TV show, really, isn't it, 1920 01:36:13.119 --> 01:36:15.520 And they keep on saying, have a look at this, 1921 01:36:15.560 --> 01:36:17.399 isn't this amazing? Well I can't have a look at 1922 01:36:17.399 --> 01:36:19.760 it because I'm just listening to the podcast. And I 1923 01:36:19.840 --> 01:36:23.520 now feel like a second class citizen because you know, 1924 01:36:23.680 --> 01:36:26.520 you've you've foisted me off on something that doesn't work 1925 01:36:26.560 --> 01:36:29.439 as a piece of audio. So I think we just 1926 01:36:29.520 --> 01:36:31.319 have to be very careful, you know, in terms of 1927 01:36:31.359 --> 01:36:34.520 that as we move forward. Thankfully they didn't dive too 1928 01:36:34.640 --> 01:36:38.159 deeply into that in this particular movie, which was probably 1929 01:36:38.159 --> 01:36:38.680 a good thing. 1930 01:36:39.319 --> 01:36:43.079 It's a very positive movie. Like it doesn't it doesn't 1931 01:36:43.119 --> 01:36:45.760 talk about like I don't know, like not the dirty 1932 01:36:45.840 --> 01:36:48.000 side of podcasting. But there's a little bit of like 1933 01:36:48.079 --> 01:36:51.359 a less exciting part of this to talk about, like 1934 01:36:52.239 --> 01:36:54.359 the stuff that we've dealt with, like the things that 1935 01:36:54.399 --> 01:36:57.640 you deal with with hosting sites and not your people, 1936 01:36:57.720 --> 01:37:00.239 not being upright and honest with things, or just you know, 1937 01:37:00.359 --> 01:37:03.399 running into creative differences with people, like all kinds of things, 1938 01:37:03.479 --> 01:37:05.520 Like none of that's mentioned. Like this seems like a 1939 01:37:05.640 --> 01:37:08.600 very fun and upbeat thing. Like look, I think they 1940 01:37:08.640 --> 01:37:11.920 said it best in the in the documentary podcasting right 1941 01:37:11.960 --> 01:37:15.000 now is like the last frontier the of like ultimate 1942 01:37:15.079 --> 01:37:19.880 democratization of media is podcasting, like literally anybody can do it, 1943 01:37:20.000 --> 01:37:22.119 like and as long as that continues to be. 1944 01:37:22.079 --> 01:37:24.119 The case, that is a positive. 1945 01:37:24.520 --> 01:37:26.840 But to your point, James, like the idea that like 1946 01:37:26.880 --> 01:37:29.239 somehow now we all have to have video. Like when 1947 01:37:29.279 --> 01:37:32.239 I came back from Podcast Movement last year, Mike and 1948 01:37:32.319 --> 01:37:34.079 I had a conversation and one of the things I 1949 01:37:34.119 --> 01:37:36.640 talked about was like, this is all video now. They 1950 01:37:36.640 --> 01:37:38.439 all want video and they wouldn't shut the fuck up 1951 01:37:38.479 --> 01:37:40.119 about video all the time. 1952 01:37:41.079 --> 01:37:43.600 I did a video podcast for a while. It was fine, 1953 01:37:44.039 --> 01:37:46.399 but I would rather just do this. 1954 01:37:46.399 --> 01:37:48.279 This is what I signed up for, this is what 1955 01:37:48.319 --> 01:37:50.840 I want to do, and this will always have a place. 1956 01:37:51.279 --> 01:37:54.560 It's just figuring out a way to make this more accessible. 1957 01:37:54.600 --> 01:37:57.800 And I think as something like this documentary would show. 1958 01:37:57.840 --> 01:38:00.840 My hope is that something like that makes this more accessible, 1959 01:38:00.960 --> 01:38:04.439 And something like Podcast Movement, which I am also going 1960 01:38:04.479 --> 01:38:07.520 to in like a week and a half, goes a 1961 01:38:07.600 --> 01:38:10.680 long way to that, I think in getting people engaged 1962 01:38:10.760 --> 01:38:15.479 and directly engaged. But it's whether or not those people 1963 01:38:15.560 --> 01:38:18.079 leave that box that they're in, because it's not about, 1964 01:38:18.600 --> 01:38:20.359 like you said, the echo chamber that we're all in. 1965 01:38:20.520 --> 01:38:21.680 Like podcasting is great, and I. 1966 01:38:21.640 --> 01:38:24.279 Love podcasting, Like, yeah, if you fucking listen to podcasts, 1967 01:38:24.319 --> 01:38:26.680 Like how do I get the person that isn't already 1968 01:38:26.680 --> 01:38:29.359 on that train onto the train with me? For as 1969 01:38:29.399 --> 01:38:33.920 little cost as possible, and we as a collective industry 1970 01:38:33.960 --> 01:38:37.720 still haven't figured that out. We haven't and I don't 1971 01:38:37.800 --> 01:38:39.720 know what that looks like or what that takes. Because 1972 01:38:39.720 --> 01:38:42.239 if I did, trust me, i'd be doing it right now, 1973 01:38:42.279 --> 01:38:44.720 and I'd be sharing it with the people I work 1974 01:38:44.760 --> 01:38:46.560 with directly, so we could all be successful. Like I 1975 01:38:46.560 --> 01:38:49.000 wouldn't keep it from people either, because that's how the 1976 01:38:49.039 --> 01:38:51.520 other industries became the way that they are as well. 1977 01:38:52.399 --> 01:38:54.840 Yeah, correct, And it's one of the reasons why I 1978 01:38:54.880 --> 01:38:58.720 am much less interested in seeing. You know, fifty three 1979 01:38:58.760 --> 01:39:02.319 percent of the US pop listeners to podcasts every month. 1980 01:39:02.479 --> 01:39:05.359 That to me is not an exciting number anymore. The 1981 01:39:05.359 --> 01:39:08.920 exciting number for me is seven hundred and seventy three 1982 01:39:09.399 --> 01:39:14.600 million hours in the US is spent with podcasts every week. 1983 01:39:14.880 --> 01:39:17.760 Seven hundred and seventy three million hours. Now, if we 1984 01:39:17.880 --> 01:39:21.199 double that, theoretically we double the amount of money coming 1985 01:39:21.239 --> 01:39:24.760 in into the industry. It's not that easy, but theoretically, 1986 01:39:24.760 --> 01:39:27.960 at least, this is a number which is tied into 1987 01:39:28.520 --> 01:39:32.039 the revenue that we can earn. And it's that number, 1988 01:39:32.159 --> 01:39:34.319 seven hundred and seventy three million that we should be 1989 01:39:34.359 --> 01:39:36.479 having a look at every single year. It should go 1990 01:39:36.600 --> 01:39:39.880 up every single year, you would hope, but certainly seeing 1991 01:39:39.920 --> 01:39:42.640 that going up as our bell weather. And one of 1992 01:39:42.640 --> 01:39:45.520 the ways that we can increase that is to cross 1993 01:39:45.520 --> 01:39:49.239 promote other podcasts, to make sure that people find new 1994 01:39:49.279 --> 01:39:52.960 shows that they're interested in, but also listen longer to 1995 01:39:53.079 --> 01:39:55.920 the shows that they really enjoy and do all of 1996 01:39:55.960 --> 01:39:59.840 that stuff. I mean, it's it's it's the usual way 1997 01:40:00.119 --> 01:40:03.600 commercial radio works. But we don't seem to have focused 1998 01:40:03.640 --> 01:40:07.119 on time spent listening in the podcast industry at all. 1999 01:40:07.199 --> 01:40:10.159 The only thing that we've been chasing is how many people. 2000 01:40:10.199 --> 01:40:12.840 I mean, you know, there's the useless stat how many 2001 01:40:12.840 --> 01:40:16.039 people have ever listened to a podcast. I mean, I 2002 01:40:16.039 --> 01:40:20.000 don't know about you, Mike. I have stood using with 2003 01:40:20.439 --> 01:40:24.119 bare feet. I have stood on a lego brick and 2004 01:40:24.239 --> 01:40:26.439 that really hurts, and I'm not going to do it again. 2005 01:40:27.000 --> 01:40:29.159 But I'm still in that list of people who have 2006 01:40:29.239 --> 01:40:32.920 stood on a lego brick with their bare feet. That's 2007 01:40:32.960 --> 01:40:35.840 not a particularly useful stat. But seven hundred and seventy 2008 01:40:35.880 --> 01:40:40.159 three million hours spent with podcasts every week in the 2009 01:40:40.239 --> 01:40:43.159 US alone is an amazing stat. And as long as 2010 01:40:43.159 --> 01:40:45.640 we focus on that and continue to grow that number 2011 01:40:45.680 --> 01:40:49.680 I think we're in for a great future in terms 2012 01:40:49.960 --> 01:40:51.079 of where the industry's going. 2013 01:40:51.600 --> 01:40:53.640 Some of my episodes are so long that I think 2014 01:40:53.680 --> 01:40:55.760 I'm at least one percent of that number. 2015 01:40:56.520 --> 01:40:58.399 Well, that's the other thing that's nice about podcasting is 2016 01:40:58.439 --> 01:40:59.600 it sticks around forever. 2017 01:41:00.239 --> 01:41:02.159 You know. We are the arbiters of that. 2018 01:41:02.479 --> 01:41:04.359 You know, we have all of our own files, we 2019 01:41:04.479 --> 01:41:07.359 have everything, we can move our stuff. You know, they 2020 01:41:07.359 --> 01:41:09.319 don't talk about it. In the documentary of like the 2021 01:41:09.359 --> 01:41:12.199 Hosting Debacle, and you know, Kevin Smith talks about like, 2022 01:41:12.239 --> 01:41:15.119 well I had to pay for podcasting, Like, no shit, dude, 2023 01:41:15.159 --> 01:41:17.560 We've been having to pay for it this whole time. 2024 01:41:17.760 --> 01:41:19.479 Like it's nice that you thought it was free, though, 2025 01:41:19.479 --> 01:41:22.840 my friend, like, how about of that dozen bananas, thirteen dollars? 2026 01:41:22.920 --> 01:41:25.159 Yeah, sure, just give me the thirteen dollars. 2027 01:41:25.640 --> 01:41:27.960 I love that that is part of this, that we 2028 01:41:28.000 --> 01:41:30.000 are the arbiters of our own fate in a way, 2029 01:41:30.079 --> 01:41:32.680 like and that's kind of on us, like as not 2030 01:41:32.720 --> 01:41:33.840 figuring out how to do this. 2031 01:41:33.920 --> 01:41:36.560 But at the same time, like I'm kind of okay. 2032 01:41:36.279 --> 01:41:38.760 With that because I think as an industry, I would 2033 01:41:38.840 --> 01:41:41.840 rather be in a group of people feeling like we 2034 01:41:41.920 --> 01:41:44.279 can still do better. And there's still room to grow. 2035 01:41:44.319 --> 01:41:47.359 Then there is no room for anyone like us we're 2036 01:41:47.399 --> 01:41:49.720 trying to like dig out and carve out our spot 2037 01:41:49.720 --> 01:41:52.039 here as opposed to like there's plenty of room for everybody. 2038 01:41:52.279 --> 01:41:55.239 And podcasting still feels that way, like I've only been 2039 01:41:55.239 --> 01:41:58.319 doing it for a decade. It's been around for twice 2040 01:41:58.359 --> 01:42:00.960 as long as I've been doing it, and there's still plenty, 2041 01:42:01.199 --> 01:42:03.439 like there's still so much room to cover. And I 2042 01:42:03.479 --> 01:42:06.720 think that the documentary does get at that a little bit, 2043 01:42:06.720 --> 01:42:08.960 but I think that's another like huge thing that needs 2044 01:42:09.000 --> 01:42:11.560 to kind of just be like yelled at the mountaintop, 2045 01:42:11.640 --> 01:42:13.960 is like there is actually room for everybody in this 2046 01:42:14.159 --> 01:42:15.640 and you can be successful. 2047 01:42:16.640 --> 01:42:18.479 There is room. And I think Chris, you were saying 2048 01:42:18.520 --> 01:42:20.640 earlier how many podcasts there are. There are four point 2049 01:42:20.680 --> 01:42:24.920 seven million podcasts, and that sounds, oh my goodness, unattainable. 2050 01:42:25.359 --> 01:42:27.119 But you look at two things. You look at the 2051 01:42:27.159 --> 01:42:29.680 amount of books that are published every single year, way 2052 01:42:29.720 --> 01:42:32.399 more than four point seven million. But you also look 2053 01:42:32.439 --> 01:42:35.840 at the amount of active podcasts podcasts that are being 2054 01:42:36.079 --> 01:42:38.920 made right now, and that number is as low as 2055 01:42:39.119 --> 01:42:43.760 three hundred thousand. That's the number that you're really competing 2056 01:42:43.800 --> 01:42:46.840 with if you're competing with an always on show, and 2057 01:42:46.920 --> 01:42:49.600 I think from that point of view, there's plenty of 2058 01:42:49.680 --> 01:42:52.720 room and the benefit of podcasting it's called podcasting for 2059 01:42:52.760 --> 01:42:55.560 a reason and not broadcasting, because the benefit is you 2060 01:42:55.600 --> 01:42:59.279 can really talk to people with a common interest. You 2061 01:42:59.319 --> 01:43:02.319 don't have to be broad you don't have to reach 2062 01:43:02.680 --> 01:43:06.319 millions of people. You can focus on you know, the 2063 01:43:06.399 --> 01:43:09.760 ten people in the world who like blue Trains and 2064 01:43:09.840 --> 01:43:13.359 make a Blue Trains podcast. You can do that and 2065 01:43:13.840 --> 01:43:16.279 you can have one hundred percent reach in the people 2066 01:43:16.279 --> 01:43:20.319 who love blue Trains. I mean, that's what podcasting can do. 2067 01:43:20.479 --> 01:43:23.960 And that podcast can sit on the same platform next 2068 01:43:23.960 --> 01:43:26.520 to Joe Rogan, next to Amy Poehler, next to This 2069 01:43:26.560 --> 01:43:30.159 American Life, and that's really exciting. And that's something that 2070 01:43:30.479 --> 01:43:33.159 you can't do in terms of Netflix. You can't really 2071 01:43:33.159 --> 01:43:35.840 do in terms of YouTube because of the way the 2072 01:43:35.880 --> 01:43:39.560 algorithms and all of that work and the cost of 2073 01:43:39.600 --> 01:43:41.840 doing video in the first place. But you can do 2074 01:43:41.920 --> 01:43:45.720 that in terms of podcasting. And that's what I still 2075 01:43:45.720 --> 01:43:49.079 think that podcasting is one of the most exciting media 2076 01:43:49.199 --> 01:43:50.840 because you know, at the end of the day, you 2077 01:43:50.880 --> 01:43:54.199 can do that and you can earn money by simply 2078 01:43:54.239 --> 01:43:57.680 asking your audience. If you like this, if you get 2079 01:43:57.800 --> 01:44:02.000 value from what I'm doing here, then please think about 2080 01:44:02.039 --> 01:44:05.439 giving us value back, either value with your time of 2081 01:44:06.359 --> 01:44:09.239 listening to it, value with your talents. Maybe you might 2082 01:44:09.359 --> 01:44:12.600 want to help promote the show or value with your 2083 01:44:12.640 --> 01:44:15.560 treasure money and you can send it over here. And 2084 01:44:16.239 --> 01:44:18.920 there are podcasters out there who are earning a living 2085 01:44:19.039 --> 01:44:22.880 from literally doing that, from asking their audiences. If you 2086 01:44:23.039 --> 01:44:26.279 like what we do, here's where you can help support 2087 01:44:26.279 --> 01:44:29.119 that particular show. And you know, I think that's a 2088 01:44:29.199 --> 01:44:31.319 very exciting place to be well. 2089 01:44:31.359 --> 01:44:32.720 To that end, I think I'm going to ask you 2090 01:44:32.760 --> 01:44:35.880 guys to say where people can hear you and where 2091 01:44:35.880 --> 01:44:38.319 they can give you money at I want to thank 2092 01:44:38.359 --> 01:44:40.640 my co host James and Chris for joining me. James, 2093 01:44:40.680 --> 01:44:41.760 what is the latest with you? 2094 01:44:41.840 --> 01:44:42.079 Sir? 2095 01:44:42.640 --> 01:44:44.399 Podnws dot net is where you should go and get 2096 01:44:44.439 --> 01:44:47.479 the daily newsletter that I write all about podcasting. If 2097 01:44:47.520 --> 01:44:51.920 any of this has sounded interesting to you, it's completely 2098 01:44:51.920 --> 01:44:54.439 freepodnews dot net. That's very good. If you want to 2099 01:44:54.439 --> 01:44:59.479 hear new podcasts, then try new podcasts dot net. New 2100 01:44:59.520 --> 01:45:03.119 Podcasts dot net is a ton of interesting trainers for you. 2101 01:45:03.279 --> 01:45:05.439 Shows every single day, and it's a place where you 2102 01:45:05.479 --> 01:45:09.079 can push yours as well, and if you want to 2103 01:45:09.159 --> 01:45:11.760 learn more about me personally, I've got no idea why, 2104 01:45:11.760 --> 01:45:15.800 but anyway, James dot Critlin dot net is my little 2105 01:45:15.800 --> 01:45:17.079 home on the internet. 2106 01:45:17.039 --> 01:45:18.640 And Chris, let's lad this with you, sir. 2107 01:45:19.239 --> 01:45:21.800 Still taking that little bit of a personal sabbatical from 2108 01:45:21.840 --> 01:45:25.560 my main show, just for personal reasons, as one might say, 2109 01:45:25.600 --> 01:45:27.920 but I'm kind of getting back into the swing of 2110 01:45:27.960 --> 01:45:32.399 things with it, and so expect back to weekly content 2111 01:45:33.239 --> 01:45:36.119 with my show. The Culture Cast over in weirding Way Media, 2112 01:45:36.119 --> 01:45:38.439 where you and I do all the things that we 2113 01:45:38.479 --> 01:45:41.159 do other than the one thing that is a bonus, 2114 01:45:41.199 --> 01:45:44.199 and that's on my Patreon or your patreon, patreon dot com, 2115 01:45:44.199 --> 01:45:47.159 slash Culture Cast or Projection Booth where we talk about 2116 01:45:47.239 --> 01:45:50.439 James Bond once a month with our dear friend Richard HadAM. 2117 01:45:50.520 --> 01:45:53.560 And it's a small donation on your part to get 2118 01:45:53.600 --> 01:45:56.319 some extra content in your life. If you're hard up 2119 01:45:56.359 --> 01:45:58.680 for not having a thousand episodes of Mike's show or 2120 01:45:58.720 --> 01:46:00.600 six hundred and ninety one episodes my show, and you 2121 01:46:00.680 --> 01:46:02.359 need more, that's where you would go to find it. 2122 01:46:03.079 --> 01:46:04.800 Well, thank you again, guys for being on the show. 2123 01:46:04.840 --> 01:46:06.720 Thanks to everybody for listening. If you want to hear 2124 01:46:06.720 --> 01:46:08.920 more of me shooting off my mouth, like Chris said, 2125 01:46:09.000 --> 01:46:11.000 check out the other shows that I work on. They're 2126 01:46:11.039 --> 01:46:14.359 all available at wirdingwaymedia dot com. Thanks especially to the 2127 01:46:14.399 --> 01:46:17.239 Patreon community. If you want to join the community, visit 2128 01:46:17.279 --> 01:46:20.319 patreon dot com slash Projection Booth or go on over 2129 01:46:20.359 --> 01:46:22.520 to patreon dot com slash culture Cast. You can get 2130 01:46:22.520 --> 01:46:25.119 some good stuff there as well. Every donation we get 2131 01:46:25.159 --> 01:46:27.359 helps the projection Booth take over the world. 2132 01:46:29.119 --> 01:46:36.000 Screw cute, I got nothing to say. Quit bugging me. 2133 01:46:36.640 --> 01:46:38.439 Go away. 2134 01:46:40.039 --> 01:46:41.359 That time. 2135 01:46:45.159 --> 01:46:48.880 I didn't come in to scial last. 2136 01:46:49.560 --> 01:47:03.439 I'm sick, sick good, and I love the value. 2137 01:47:04.560 --> 01:47:06.800 Human sycrifice. 2138 01:47:12.319 --> 01:47:19.119 I like staring at two glass eyes, keep them stuffed 2139 01:47:19.800 --> 01:47:27.439 museum style, got alarm set all around. 2140 01:47:28.960 --> 01:47:32.319 And kiss them around. 2141 01:47:33.119 --> 01:47:46.239 I'm sick, sycai aerical, and I value 2142 01:47:47.880 --> 01:47:50.119 Human sycrifice.