1 00:00:01,120 --> 00:00:04,160 Speaker 1: You're listening to the Mind over Murder podcast. 2 00:00:06,000 --> 00:00:09,679 Speaker 2: My name is Bill Thomas. I'm a writer, consulting, producer, 3 00:00:09,720 --> 00:00:12,839 and now podcaster. I am now trying to use my 4 00:00:12,919 --> 00:00:15,800 experience as the brother of a murder victim to help 5 00:00:15,880 --> 00:00:18,600 other victims of violent crime. I'm working on a book 6 00:00:18,679 --> 00:00:21,440 on the unsolved Colonial Parkway murders, and I'm the co 7 00:00:21,519 --> 00:00:24,760 administrator of the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook group together with 8 00:00:24,839 --> 00:00:25,519 Kristin Dilly. 9 00:00:26,079 --> 00:00:27,359 Speaker 3: My name is Kristin Dilly. 10 00:00:27,519 --> 00:00:31,199 Speaker 4: I'm a writer, a researcher, a teacher, and a victim's advocate, 11 00:00:31,359 --> 00:00:34,679 as well as the social media manager and co administrator 12 00:00:34,799 --> 00:00:37,799 for the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook page with my partner 13 00:00:37,840 --> 00:00:38,560 in crime. 14 00:00:38,359 --> 00:00:45,520 Speaker 3: Bill Thomas. Welcome to Minde a Murderer. I'm Kristin Dilly. 15 00:00:45,240 --> 00:00:48,439 Speaker 2: And I'm Bill Thomas. 16 00:00:47,280 --> 00:00:51,159 Speaker 3: And welcome to today's episode and a true crime news 17 00:00:51,359 --> 00:00:54,479 roundup right before the holidays. It is Desummer twenty third, 18 00:00:54,960 --> 00:00:59,560 and it is a lovely and frigid day here in 19 00:00:59,640 --> 00:01:02,679 coastal Virginia. How's it looking up there in the icebox 20 00:01:02,679 --> 00:01:03,880 of Connecticut. 21 00:01:03,320 --> 00:01:07,159 Speaker 2: Mister Thomas, lovely and frigid? It was two degrees yesterday 22 00:01:07,159 --> 00:01:11,400 morning and six degrees this morning. That's fahrenheit for our 23 00:01:11,480 --> 00:01:12,840 international visitors. 24 00:01:14,159 --> 00:01:15,000 Speaker 3: That's disgusting. 25 00:01:16,120 --> 00:01:18,840 Speaker 2: It's pretty cold. 26 00:01:18,359 --> 00:01:19,920 Speaker 3: That's gross. 27 00:01:20,680 --> 00:01:23,840 Speaker 2: Not only was it two degrees, but it was quite windy, 28 00:01:23,959 --> 00:01:26,200 so the word brisk comes to mind. 29 00:01:27,200 --> 00:01:30,239 Speaker 3: Was it two actual degrees or two degrees with windshill? 30 00:01:30,640 --> 00:01:32,319 Speaker 2: No? Two actual degrees? 31 00:01:32,599 --> 00:01:33,319 Speaker 3: Oh yack. 32 00:01:35,200 --> 00:01:36,760 Speaker 2: I think by the time we got out there it 33 00:01:36,799 --> 00:01:38,959 was like a booming six degrees. 34 00:01:39,760 --> 00:01:42,120 Speaker 3: That's so gross. Why would you do that to yourself. 35 00:01:42,400 --> 00:01:45,000 Speaker 2: I didn't choose the tempts. 36 00:01:45,400 --> 00:01:46,680 Speaker 3: But you chose the town. 37 00:01:47,719 --> 00:01:51,159 Speaker 2: This is true, and even though global warming is real, 38 00:01:51,319 --> 00:01:54,680 the Ice Box of Connecticut is proving to be true 39 00:01:54,719 --> 00:01:55,560 to its nickname. 40 00:01:56,079 --> 00:01:58,280 Speaker 3: How many fireplaces do you have in your house to 41 00:01:58,319 --> 00:02:01,120 keep you warm? Though? Because it is a beautiful airbnb, 42 00:02:01,439 --> 00:02:04,400 so tell our listeners a little bit about your fireplaces. 43 00:02:04,959 --> 00:02:08,159 Speaker 2: We have three working fireplaces in our house, although we 44 00:02:08,280 --> 00:02:11,479 usually only use the one in the living room. 45 00:02:12,240 --> 00:02:14,639 Speaker 3: You've got one in your library too, correct. 46 00:02:14,479 --> 00:02:18,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, the podcast studio Slash Library has a working fireplace. 47 00:02:18,759 --> 00:02:21,319 I'm staring at it. It's right next to the Christmas tree, 48 00:02:21,560 --> 00:02:24,919 and we have another one upstairs in our main guest room. 49 00:02:25,960 --> 00:02:28,120 Speaker 3: Do you have a nice roaring fire in the podcast 50 00:02:28,159 --> 00:02:30,800 studio right now. I'm trying to picture this this room 51 00:02:30,840 --> 00:02:33,719 all lit up with Christmas cheer and a roaring fire 52 00:02:33,800 --> 00:02:35,400 and a beautiful twinkling tree. 53 00:02:35,639 --> 00:02:39,360 Speaker 2: No, yes to all the above, except no roaring fire 54 00:02:39,400 --> 00:02:41,039 in this particular fireplace. 55 00:02:42,000 --> 00:02:44,759 Speaker 3: We want to welcome everybody to this episode and go 56 00:02:44,800 --> 00:02:46,919 ahead and start at the top by wishing you a 57 00:02:47,039 --> 00:02:49,479 very happy holiday, no matter which holiday it is that 58 00:02:49,520 --> 00:02:52,800 you happen to celebrate, and we are looking forward to 59 00:02:53,400 --> 00:02:56,960 bringing you this episode of True Crime News Roundup. We 60 00:02:57,000 --> 00:03:01,240 wanted to cover two cases in particular today, the sentence 61 00:03:01,240 --> 00:03:05,240 scene in the Delphi case and then the capture of 62 00:03:05,840 --> 00:03:12,759 CEO murder assailant Luigi Mangione, which is possibly the most 63 00:03:12,840 --> 00:03:14,840 Italian name I've ever heard ever. 64 00:03:16,879 --> 00:03:19,960 Speaker 2: And if all goes according to plan, this podcast should 65 00:03:20,080 --> 00:03:25,599 run on Monday, December thirtieth, Happy almost New Year. 66 00:03:26,400 --> 00:03:30,240 Speaker 3: It will be the last podcast of twenty twenty four, 67 00:03:30,520 --> 00:03:33,639 and in twenty twenty five we will be turning five 68 00:03:34,039 --> 00:03:34,919 years old. 69 00:03:35,360 --> 00:03:40,439 Speaker 2: Yes, which means technically we're starting our sixth season the 70 00:03:40,520 --> 00:03:41,000 next day. 71 00:03:41,719 --> 00:03:47,039 Speaker 3: I think we've stopped demarketing season. I wouldn't even know 72 00:03:47,039 --> 00:03:49,080 what to tell people when they ask what season of 73 00:03:49,120 --> 00:03:51,960 your podcast are you currently on? I don't know. I 74 00:03:52,080 --> 00:03:54,879 just go out its episode four hundred something. 75 00:03:54,919 --> 00:03:58,879 Speaker 2: I don't know this episode should run as podcast episode 76 00:03:59,000 --> 00:04:02,800 number four thirty five in Mind Over Murder. Wow. 77 00:04:02,919 --> 00:04:07,639 Speaker 3: But we've been at it for five years, yes, six seasons. 78 00:04:08,360 --> 00:04:10,759 I never thought our plucky little podcast would live to 79 00:04:10,759 --> 00:04:13,199 be the ripe old Age of five or half of 80 00:04:13,240 --> 00:04:14,639 the decade, but here we are. 81 00:04:14,879 --> 00:04:15,360 Speaker 2: Yeah. 82 00:04:15,400 --> 00:04:18,639 Speaker 3: Absolutely, we want to go ahead and start talking today 83 00:04:18,680 --> 00:04:23,319 about what I think is a welcome sentence, and that 84 00:04:23,480 --> 00:04:27,040 is the sentencing of Richard Allen in the Delphi case 85 00:04:27,160 --> 00:04:30,639 for the twenty seventeen murders of Abby Williams and Libby Jerman. 86 00:04:31,480 --> 00:04:35,360 Richard Allen received a sentence of sixty five years for 87 00:04:35,439 --> 00:04:39,240 each murder to run consecutively. That means a grand total 88 00:04:39,319 --> 00:04:44,000 of one hundred and thirty years in prison. And I 89 00:04:44,079 --> 00:04:46,839 really cannot stress enough how much I think he deserves. 90 00:04:46,879 --> 00:04:49,079 Speaker 2: That couldn't happen to a nicer guy. 91 00:04:49,839 --> 00:04:52,560 Speaker 3: If he did not react to the sentence in the courtroom. 92 00:04:52,800 --> 00:04:56,680 But the families of both girls spoke out afterward. Now 93 00:04:56,720 --> 00:04:59,800 that the gag order that prevented the families commenting during 94 00:05:00,120 --> 00:05:03,600 or after the trial had been lifted, there was some 95 00:05:03,720 --> 00:05:07,160 excellent reporting from, of course, a number of news outlets. 96 00:05:07,240 --> 00:05:10,240 The best that we saw came from ABC News and 97 00:05:10,279 --> 00:05:15,360 from WISHTV reporter Jay Adkins. They actually ran the complete 98 00:05:15,399 --> 00:05:20,079 text of the German family's victims impact statement. I wanted 99 00:05:20,079 --> 00:05:22,480 to spend a little bit of time quoting from them 100 00:05:22,560 --> 00:05:25,720 because it really is important, I think, to give those 101 00:05:25,759 --> 00:05:29,920 victims impact statements their due, to carry forward the experience 102 00:05:30,000 --> 00:05:33,079 that these families have had over this long and tortuous 103 00:05:33,199 --> 00:05:37,360 road from the murder of the girls in twenty seventeen 104 00:05:37,480 --> 00:05:39,639 all the way to this trial. And it has taken 105 00:05:39,639 --> 00:05:40,759 them a long time to. 106 00:05:40,759 --> 00:05:43,560 Speaker 2: Get here, far longer than it should have. And of 107 00:05:43,600 --> 00:05:46,319 course we'll get into some more detail as we go along. 108 00:05:47,040 --> 00:05:52,199 You may recall that Richard Allen was working at CBS 109 00:05:52,800 --> 00:05:56,839 in the same town where the girls had been murdered. 110 00:05:57,399 --> 00:06:01,199 As we've discussed before, Kristin, he looked like the sketch 111 00:06:01,560 --> 00:06:04,720 of the man they said they were looking for five years. 112 00:06:05,399 --> 00:06:09,319 He was a clerk at CVS and he would sometimes 113 00:06:09,360 --> 00:06:13,360 work the register, so he would have been actually checking 114 00:06:13,439 --> 00:06:18,240 out members of the investigative team as they made purchases 115 00:06:18,319 --> 00:06:23,319 at CVS. I am still completely blown away by the 116 00:06:23,319 --> 00:06:28,680 fact that Richard Allen was permitted, through error and circumstance, 117 00:06:28,920 --> 00:06:32,959 to continue living his life literally under the noses of 118 00:06:33,000 --> 00:06:37,920 the investigators. As if this loss of these two beautiful 119 00:06:37,959 --> 00:06:42,519 young preteen girls wasn't enough. This whole thing has gotten 120 00:06:42,560 --> 00:06:47,319 so protracted between five years that Richard Allen somehow went 121 00:06:47,439 --> 00:06:52,759 unnoticed and then this lengthy trial that they've been through. 122 00:06:52,800 --> 00:06:56,120 So there's a lot of frustration, which is completely understandable 123 00:06:56,160 --> 00:06:58,439 on the part of Abby and Libby's families. 124 00:06:59,000 --> 00:07:01,319 Speaker 3: What I'm going to do is I'm to read portions 125 00:07:01,519 --> 00:07:05,519 of the victim's impact statements. They are quite lengthy, and 126 00:07:05,759 --> 00:07:08,759 to give the entire text of all of them would 127 00:07:08,759 --> 00:07:10,519 be to take up far more time than we have, 128 00:07:11,120 --> 00:07:13,160 but I chose what I thought were some of the 129 00:07:13,160 --> 00:07:18,000 most impactful passages. This first victim's impact statement is from 130 00:07:18,360 --> 00:07:23,160 Carrie Timmins. She is Liberty German's mother. There was quite 131 00:07:23,199 --> 00:07:27,360 a bit of statement before this section, but this is 132 00:07:27,360 --> 00:07:30,240 the section that really tore in my heart. So this 133 00:07:30,360 --> 00:07:33,439 victim's impact statement was given on December twentieth, the day 134 00:07:33,439 --> 00:07:36,399 of the sentencing, and the portion that I am reading 135 00:07:36,560 --> 00:07:41,000 starts here. The last twenty eight hundred and sixty seven 136 00:07:41,079 --> 00:07:44,800 days have been absolute hell for Libby's and Abby's friends 137 00:07:44,839 --> 00:07:49,040 and family. Next week we should be celebrating our birthdays together. 138 00:07:49,480 --> 00:07:53,000 December twenty fifth and December twenty seventh. Libby would be 139 00:07:53,120 --> 00:07:57,199 twenty two. She should be here. I quit celebrating after 140 00:07:57,240 --> 00:08:00,959 her fourteenth and my thirty ninth. I can't help but 141 00:08:01,040 --> 00:08:03,680 to see her grin at that, understanding the anxiety that 142 00:08:03,759 --> 00:08:06,800 she knew I had about turning the dreaded forty. That 143 00:08:06,879 --> 00:08:10,279 broke my heart. It's so awful to hear that it's 144 00:08:10,319 --> 00:08:13,720 so hard for them to mark the birthdays that they 145 00:08:13,920 --> 00:08:16,639 just stopped doing that. It makes me choke up in 146 00:08:16,639 --> 00:08:17,800 a really terrible way. 147 00:08:18,279 --> 00:08:20,879 Speaker 2: You can see how mother and daughter had a little 148 00:08:20,920 --> 00:08:24,040 bit of a running joke going there, because, like a 149 00:08:24,040 --> 00:08:27,360 lot of people, Mom had become obsessed with turning forty, 150 00:08:28,199 --> 00:08:30,600 and now that I've turned forty, it doesn't seem like 151 00:08:30,600 --> 00:08:35,440 that big a deal. But she's harkening back to something 152 00:08:35,480 --> 00:08:38,840 which is clearly like an in joke between mother and daughter, 153 00:08:39,000 --> 00:08:41,039 and that part made me smile, but at the same 154 00:08:41,080 --> 00:08:44,480 time it's completely heartbreaking. The other thing that was really 155 00:08:44,519 --> 00:08:47,840 surprising to me was Libby would be twenty two. Years old. Now, 156 00:08:48,559 --> 00:08:51,759 they were quite young at the time of the murders, 157 00:08:51,879 --> 00:08:54,240 but so many years have gone by now that Libby 158 00:08:54,279 --> 00:08:58,919 would be twenty two years old, which it's because they're 159 00:08:58,960 --> 00:09:02,759 frozen in amber we've talked about before, where they'll be perpetually, 160 00:09:03,000 --> 00:09:07,159 these young teenage girls. It's hard to picture Libby as 161 00:09:07,200 --> 00:09:10,000 a twenty two year old young woman exactly. 162 00:09:10,279 --> 00:09:13,559 Speaker 3: I know for you, Kathy is forever twenty seven. But 163 00:09:14,000 --> 00:09:15,320 how old would Kathy be. 164 00:09:15,399 --> 00:09:17,679 Speaker 2: Now, I'd have to stop and think about it for 165 00:09:17,720 --> 00:09:18,240 a second. 166 00:09:18,759 --> 00:09:23,000 Speaker 3: Sixty five Well, it has to be a little jarring. 167 00:09:23,399 --> 00:09:25,879 When I saw that number, that certainly threw me a 168 00:09:25,919 --> 00:09:29,879 little bit. Twenty two years old. It's been eight years, yeah, 169 00:09:29,960 --> 00:09:33,120 and she would most certainly be on her way not 170 00:09:33,200 --> 00:09:38,000 only through college, but maybe onto her first career, maybe marriage. 171 00:09:38,120 --> 00:09:39,480 It's really jarring to see that. 172 00:09:40,039 --> 00:09:43,840 Speaker 2: When you see those numbers, that begins to remind you 173 00:09:44,000 --> 00:09:47,519 of how much the victims and the families have lost, 174 00:09:47,559 --> 00:09:51,480 how much more life has gone on since then. We 175 00:09:51,480 --> 00:09:54,320 were just talking about Kathy. For Kathy to be sixty 176 00:09:54,360 --> 00:09:56,519 five years old now and you think to yourself, oh 177 00:09:56,559 --> 00:10:00,200 my gosh, thirty eight years of living has been and 178 00:10:00,279 --> 00:10:00,960 lost to her. 179 00:10:01,679 --> 00:10:03,559 Speaker 3: Yeah, and one of the things that I found in 180 00:10:03,600 --> 00:10:07,360 reading those victims' impact statements is the parents and grandparents 181 00:10:07,399 --> 00:10:11,039 and family members all hearken to this idea a number 182 00:10:11,039 --> 00:10:14,480 of times. Of what has been lost, not only children, 183 00:10:14,559 --> 00:10:18,759 but grandchildren and great grandchildren. There's a whole generation that 184 00:10:18,879 --> 00:10:21,919 is wiped out, essentially because the girls were wiped out 185 00:10:22,200 --> 00:10:24,960 at such an early age, and that's something that's clearly 186 00:10:25,000 --> 00:10:27,840 on this family's mind. Is very sad to see that. 187 00:10:28,399 --> 00:10:32,159 Another section of the victim's impact statement from mis Timmins reads, 188 00:10:32,600 --> 00:10:35,000 I honestly don't know how to process the fact that 189 00:10:35,080 --> 00:10:38,080 a husband and father is capable of the horrendous acts 190 00:10:38,080 --> 00:10:42,639 of brutality inflicted upon our beautiful children. I was totally 191 00:10:42,679 --> 00:10:46,080 blind to the fact that such evil actually existed. I 192 00:10:46,159 --> 00:10:50,480 don't know which is worse, knowing or not knowing. I'll 193 00:10:50,480 --> 00:10:53,039 never understand how he was able to get away with 194 00:10:53,080 --> 00:10:56,120 it for so long? How can such evil hide in 195 00:10:56,200 --> 00:11:00,200 plain sight, continuing to walk down streets line with his picture, 196 00:11:00,440 --> 00:11:03,600 making a mockery of law enforcement, the families, the community, 197 00:11:03,840 --> 00:11:09,480 and especially Libyan Abbey. For nearly six years. Only Richard 198 00:11:09,600 --> 00:11:12,679 Allen has those answers. He has claimed remorse and a 199 00:11:12,759 --> 00:11:15,759 need to apologize. I will not hold my breath waiting, 200 00:11:16,159 --> 00:11:19,679 but I do deserve those answers. Libyan Abbey, deserve the 201 00:11:19,720 --> 00:11:22,200 whole truth to come out, and I am all ears. 202 00:11:23,200 --> 00:11:27,600 Speaker 2: My sense is that, regardless of whatever garbage Richard Allen 203 00:11:27,679 --> 00:11:30,919 has spewed over the last several years, I don't think 204 00:11:30,919 --> 00:11:34,480 there's ever going to be an explanation or any sort 205 00:11:34,519 --> 00:11:35,840 of meaningful apology. 206 00:11:36,480 --> 00:11:39,799 Speaker 3: I don't know that any explanation would ultimately be satisfactory. 207 00:11:39,919 --> 00:11:44,600 If you were to hear the reasoning air quotes behind 208 00:11:44,639 --> 00:11:47,679 what happened to Kathy, it wouldn't matter, would it. 209 00:11:48,000 --> 00:11:50,000 Speaker 2: No, it's not going to bring your loved one back, 210 00:11:50,080 --> 00:11:54,480 and there's never going to be a sensible explanation. It 211 00:11:54,519 --> 00:11:57,000 isn't two guys got in a fight in a bar 212 00:11:57,360 --> 00:12:01,200 and things went too far and person ended up dead. 213 00:12:01,679 --> 00:12:07,679 You could see someone remorsefully wanting to apologize and explain 214 00:12:07,759 --> 00:12:13,039 what happened and ask for forgiveness. But in these examples, 215 00:12:13,080 --> 00:12:16,279 whether it's the Colonial Parkway murders or the Delphi case 216 00:12:16,360 --> 00:12:21,039 or many others, these are strangers, mostly men, lashing out 217 00:12:21,200 --> 00:12:24,080 at people that are strangers to them, often but not 218 00:12:24,120 --> 00:12:27,279 always women, and in this case quite young. Really, girls, 219 00:12:27,879 --> 00:12:33,080 there's no adequate explanation for what drives someone like this. 220 00:12:33,759 --> 00:12:36,720 It's completely senseless, and we've talked about it on the 221 00:12:36,759 --> 00:12:43,200 podcast before. We're trying to apply logic to inherently illogical acts. 222 00:12:43,720 --> 00:12:47,519 Speaker 3: Well said. The final selection from her victims and hec 223 00:12:47,600 --> 00:12:51,200 statement that I wanted to read is the final paragraph. 224 00:12:51,320 --> 00:12:54,440 While there will never really be justice or closure and 225 00:12:54,480 --> 00:12:57,279 nothing will bring my daughter back, I am so very 226 00:12:57,320 --> 00:13:00,919 proud of her for not only exposing her Abby's killer, 227 00:13:01,120 --> 00:13:04,559 but also bringing much needed attention to so many cases 228 00:13:04,679 --> 00:13:08,759 near and far. This tragedy hasn't completely stopped Libby from 229 00:13:08,799 --> 00:13:12,399 accomplishing at least one dream from beyond the grave. Her 230 00:13:12,440 --> 00:13:14,919 courage and strength will live on as she guides us 231 00:13:14,960 --> 00:13:18,720 through this lifetime until we meet again. She is my sunshine. 232 00:13:19,440 --> 00:13:21,840 Carrie Timmins, mother of Liberty German. 233 00:13:22,480 --> 00:13:27,080 Speaker 2: That's very well spoken, and I'm glad she's finding some 234 00:13:27,200 --> 00:13:30,080 positives here and some reason to take pride in a 235 00:13:30,200 --> 00:13:32,000 daughter she clearly loved very much. 236 00:13:32,720 --> 00:13:36,799 Speaker 3: The foresight that Libby had to take the video of 237 00:13:36,840 --> 00:13:40,120 the bridge guy, there are grown adults who wouldn't think 238 00:13:40,159 --> 00:13:43,799 to do that. That she was able in whatever moment 239 00:13:43,919 --> 00:13:47,159 of fear that she was undergoing to think, let me 240 00:13:47,240 --> 00:13:49,919 turn on my camera, let me do this video. I 241 00:13:49,960 --> 00:13:52,840 wouldn't have that foresight. I couldn't do it. I would 242 00:13:52,840 --> 00:13:56,200 probably end up utterly frozen in fear. I really can't 243 00:13:56,440 --> 00:13:59,240 imagine how much bravery it took her to be able 244 00:13:59,320 --> 00:14:02,080 to do that one simple act. And I would say 245 00:14:02,120 --> 00:14:04,879 that without that video, they probably would never have found 246 00:14:04,919 --> 00:14:05,480 Richard Allen. 247 00:14:05,759 --> 00:14:08,799 Speaker 2: No, I think you're probably right, especially with all of 248 00:14:08,840 --> 00:14:12,320 the other problems in this case and in this prosecution, 249 00:14:12,960 --> 00:14:15,879 I think without that video they would have been completely stalled. 250 00:14:16,480 --> 00:14:19,919 Speaker 3: Another portion of a victim's impact statement that I wanted 251 00:14:19,960 --> 00:14:23,720 to outline for you all comes from Mike Patty. He 252 00:14:23,960 --> 00:14:29,600 is Liberty German's grandfather. He took an interesting tack in 253 00:14:29,799 --> 00:14:34,320 his victim's impact statement in that he addressed not only 254 00:14:34,399 --> 00:14:39,159 the defense team, which had multiple issues, the family has 255 00:14:39,320 --> 00:14:44,039 multiple I think, very very obvious grievances against them. He 256 00:14:44,120 --> 00:14:47,960 also addressed Richard Allen himself. Again, this is not the 257 00:14:48,120 --> 00:14:51,320 entirety of that victim's impact statement, but I do want 258 00:14:51,360 --> 00:14:53,960 to address each portion of it because I feel these 259 00:14:54,000 --> 00:14:57,279 are very important for people to reflect on as we 260 00:14:57,360 --> 00:15:00,480 look back on what happened in the Delphi case. About 261 00:15:00,480 --> 00:15:03,600 the middle of the statement, after addressing each person in 262 00:15:03,720 --> 00:15:07,399 the room that judge, the prosecution, and so on and 263 00:15:07,440 --> 00:15:13,240 so forth, Mike Patty addressed the defense lawyers. He says, defense, 264 00:15:13,480 --> 00:15:16,399 I understand the role you need to play, but I 265 00:15:16,480 --> 00:15:19,879 cannot connect the ways of our legal system to allow 266 00:15:20,039 --> 00:15:23,679 so many things to interfere with the truth and facts 267 00:15:23,799 --> 00:15:27,399 to simply be brought before a jury. I cannot imagine 268 00:15:27,440 --> 00:15:31,639 our forefathers ever envision the attempts to suppress and divert 269 00:15:31,759 --> 00:15:34,879 the facts would ever be part of our justice system. 270 00:15:35,399 --> 00:15:38,720 One should reflect and review their position to support truth, 271 00:15:39,120 --> 00:15:43,360 justice and the American way. Your inept ability to protect 272 00:15:43,399 --> 00:15:46,200 some of the most personal facts in this case, the 273 00:15:46,320 --> 00:15:50,000 crime scene photos, and making statements that you really didn't 274 00:15:50,039 --> 00:15:53,440 care they were out there. My family will forever have 275 00:15:53,559 --> 00:15:56,879 to explain how these are available for people to search. 276 00:15:57,279 --> 00:16:02,080 What do I say to my kids' grandchildren and great grandchildren, Well, 277 00:16:02,120 --> 00:16:05,519 will you tell your grandkids? I hope you tell them 278 00:16:05,519 --> 00:16:09,360 the truth. I surely will. For this I will never forget. 279 00:16:10,039 --> 00:16:13,879 Speaker 2: Mike's reference is to the fact that the defense was 280 00:16:13,919 --> 00:16:18,000 so careless with these graphic crime scene photos of the 281 00:16:18,039 --> 00:16:21,600 two young girls after they'd been murdered. They had these 282 00:16:21,799 --> 00:16:26,399 all spread out in a conference room which was not secure, 283 00:16:26,480 --> 00:16:29,000 so that an individual who had done some work for 284 00:16:29,039 --> 00:16:32,240 them in the past had come into their office and 285 00:16:32,320 --> 00:16:36,639 had wandered into the conference room where he saw these 286 00:16:36,960 --> 00:16:40,279 graphic photographs, and then my recollection is that he took 287 00:16:40,360 --> 00:16:44,039 pictures of the photographs as displayed in the conference room. 288 00:16:44,440 --> 00:16:47,679 There's no effort whatsoever to keep those photos under lock 289 00:16:47,720 --> 00:16:50,919 and key, and that's how those photos ended up being 290 00:16:51,399 --> 00:16:56,320 very unfortunately leaked, and the Murder Sheet podcast, if I'm 291 00:16:56,360 --> 00:17:00,480 not mistaken, had run those photographs put them up on 292 00:17:00,519 --> 00:17:03,840 the internet. I think this is absolutely grotesque and what 293 00:17:03,960 --> 00:17:06,680 a failure on the part of the defense team, who 294 00:17:06,720 --> 00:17:09,519 have a job to do and a very important role 295 00:17:09,599 --> 00:17:14,079 to play. Just seems so uncaring and even negligent in 296 00:17:14,200 --> 00:17:17,799 terms of how they handled these crime team photos. It's 297 00:17:17,960 --> 00:17:22,359 just grotesque. It seems beyond heartless. It's like they didn't 298 00:17:22,400 --> 00:17:24,640 care and they just left them out there in their 299 00:17:24,640 --> 00:17:28,960 conference room. And this isn't a place that had proper security, 300 00:17:29,400 --> 00:17:31,839 so that this man is just allowed to wander in 301 00:17:31,880 --> 00:17:34,640 there and start snapping pictures with his cell phone. 302 00:17:34,839 --> 00:17:38,160 Speaker 3: Again because in the Colonial Parkway murders. We have also 303 00:17:38,680 --> 00:17:43,039 seen the leak of crime scene photos, graphic ones related 304 00:17:43,079 --> 00:17:47,920 to your sister, Robin Edwards, David Knobling, Anna Maria Phelps, 305 00:17:47,960 --> 00:17:53,000 Daniel Lauer, and Keith Collin Cassada Haley's cases. We of 306 00:17:53,039 --> 00:17:56,359 course understand where this is coming from. I just I 307 00:17:56,440 --> 00:18:00,960 cannot fathom someone who would see that and their first 308 00:18:01,000 --> 00:18:05,400 impulse is I'll take pictures because everybody else has the 309 00:18:05,480 --> 00:18:08,680 right to see that too. There is no one who 310 00:18:08,759 --> 00:18:12,880 has the right to see what that absolute monster did 311 00:18:12,920 --> 00:18:16,640 to savage those two girls. No one deserves to see that. 312 00:18:16,640 --> 00:18:21,240 That is not anything that lends itself to an understanding 313 00:18:21,279 --> 00:18:23,680 of what happened in this case. The only people who 314 00:18:23,720 --> 00:18:27,480 should have seen that were investigators and maybe eventually the jury. 315 00:18:28,160 --> 00:18:30,279 The fact that now that is available out there on 316 00:18:30,319 --> 00:18:32,799 the Internet and will always be out there because the 317 00:18:32,799 --> 00:18:36,279 Internet is forever. You can't take this stuff back. I 318 00:18:36,359 --> 00:18:39,480 feel terrible for these families, I truly do. 319 00:18:40,079 --> 00:18:42,960 Speaker 2: And at the same time, in the Colonial Parkway murders, 320 00:18:43,000 --> 00:18:47,160 the FBI is directly responsible for these photos leaking because 321 00:18:47,319 --> 00:18:50,480 they failed to secure the photos, which were then stolen 322 00:18:50,759 --> 00:18:55,640 by an FBI photographer. The thing that I'm still amazed 323 00:18:55,680 --> 00:18:57,799 by is every once in a while, someone will reach 324 00:18:57,839 --> 00:19:00,359 out to me and they'll ask me the other of 325 00:19:00,400 --> 00:19:03,400 a murder victim where they can see the crime scene 326 00:19:03,400 --> 00:19:06,400 photos from the Colonial Parkway murders. And my attitude is, 327 00:19:06,599 --> 00:19:10,680 I don't think so. I've seen those photographs, and I'm sorry. 328 00:19:10,839 --> 00:19:13,759 I've seen those photographs, and the rest of the world, 329 00:19:13,839 --> 00:19:17,680 in my opinion, doesn't need to see those graphic photographs. 330 00:19:18,440 --> 00:19:21,720 Should our case ever go to a trial. I understand 331 00:19:21,759 --> 00:19:25,279 that they may be used, and that jurors and judges 332 00:19:25,319 --> 00:19:28,240 and attorneys would have to see the crime scene photos. 333 00:19:28,799 --> 00:19:33,000 I see no reason for those photos to be out 334 00:19:33,000 --> 00:19:37,200 there on the internet, particularly highly graphic crime scene photos 335 00:19:37,359 --> 00:19:39,519 like we've seen in the Colonial Parkway murders and the 336 00:19:39,559 --> 00:19:41,359 Delphi case and so many others. 337 00:19:41,920 --> 00:19:44,720 Speaker 3: Say, for anybody who is out there right now thinking 338 00:19:45,160 --> 00:19:47,880 that they really do want to see crime scene photos, 339 00:19:47,880 --> 00:19:50,599 like that's the thing that's going to enrich their life, No, 340 00:19:50,720 --> 00:19:54,039 it's not. It really is not. As Bill has said, 341 00:19:54,279 --> 00:19:57,039 he wishes he could unsee those photos. Take it from me, 342 00:19:57,200 --> 00:19:59,759 I wish I could unsee them as well. And you can't. 343 00:20:00,480 --> 00:20:02,559 They live rent free in the back of your head 344 00:20:02,599 --> 00:20:04,960 for the rest of your life. It doesn't matter how 345 00:20:05,000 --> 00:20:07,160 old the case is. There are still people out there 346 00:20:07,200 --> 00:20:10,640 who will look up the Manson photos or the photos 347 00:20:10,680 --> 00:20:14,400 from Nicole Brown Simpson and Ron Goldman's case. You don't 348 00:20:14,440 --> 00:20:17,279 want to see these the people who are out there 349 00:20:17,279 --> 00:20:20,279 for the prurient interest of it. I don't understand you. 350 00:20:20,920 --> 00:20:25,119 I don't. It's very distressing. Mike Patty then took a 351 00:20:25,160 --> 00:20:29,440 moment to address Richard Allen himself. I applaud the fact 352 00:20:29,440 --> 00:20:32,279 that he does not refer to him by name. He 353 00:20:32,359 --> 00:20:35,279 just calls him the convict, which good for him, Yeah, 354 00:20:35,319 --> 00:20:39,640 really good. He doesn't deserve another name. He starts this way, 355 00:20:39,680 --> 00:20:42,759 he says, convict. I will never understand how you could 356 00:20:42,759 --> 00:20:46,839 have conducted such an atrocity. You killed my granddaughter nearly 357 00:20:46,880 --> 00:20:50,160 eight years ago and have only thought of yourself. Your 358 00:20:50,200 --> 00:20:53,119 attempts of self preservation are a result of how you 359 00:20:53,200 --> 00:20:55,599 really are once you committed this crime. You could have 360 00:20:55,640 --> 00:20:59,039 been a man, stood up and taken accountability, but you didn't. 361 00:20:59,480 --> 00:21:02,200 At any time during these proceedings, you could have stood 362 00:21:02,240 --> 00:21:05,559 up and taken responsibility, but you didn't, and were only 363 00:21:05,599 --> 00:21:08,440 concerned about yourself and tried to get away with murder. 364 00:21:09,079 --> 00:21:12,400 Actions always speak louder than words. By being so selfish, 365 00:21:12,480 --> 00:21:16,079 you continue to punish and hurt my family. For this, 366 00:21:16,519 --> 00:21:20,039 I will never forget. Your act of murder has tested 367 00:21:20,039 --> 00:21:23,319 my faith. I am still not ready to provide forgiveness. 368 00:21:23,519 --> 00:21:25,799 When I am able to, it will be for my 369 00:21:25,960 --> 00:21:30,960 faith and conscience, not yours or this I will never forget. 370 00:21:31,480 --> 00:21:32,920 Speaker 2: I understand how he feels. 371 00:21:33,599 --> 00:21:38,039 Speaker 3: I cannot imagine what this does to someone who has 372 00:21:38,119 --> 00:21:43,319 a deep seated religious belief in conviction. I am more 373 00:21:43,319 --> 00:21:45,599 of a spiritual person than I am a religious person, 374 00:21:45,880 --> 00:21:49,319 but I don't know how I would possibly deal with 375 00:21:49,359 --> 00:21:51,839 what this would do to my own faith if this 376 00:21:51,920 --> 00:21:55,200 were something that I was directly impacted by. I feel 377 00:21:55,279 --> 00:21:59,400 nothing but compassion and sorrow for these families to have 378 00:21:59,440 --> 00:22:02,559 to be dealing with this. He continues, I've never felt 379 00:22:02,599 --> 00:22:04,960 such hatred and should not be this way toward another 380 00:22:05,039 --> 00:22:08,000 human being. What you've done is impacted so many people's lives. 381 00:22:08,480 --> 00:22:10,559 We will heal with the help of our pastor. I'm 382 00:22:10,640 --> 00:22:12,599 lucky to have a great family and will enjoy the 383 00:22:12,640 --> 00:22:15,400 rest of my life helping and watching all of them grow, 384 00:22:15,440 --> 00:22:18,480 from our kids to our great grandchildren. This is something 385 00:22:18,519 --> 00:22:20,680 you will not get to take away. You will never 386 00:22:20,799 --> 00:22:23,640 get to experience such joy and love as what my 387 00:22:23,680 --> 00:22:26,960 family has. Lastly, I hope the rest of your days 388 00:22:26,960 --> 00:22:29,119 are spending as much fear as the girls had to 389 00:22:29,200 --> 00:22:31,960 experience the last part of their lives, and hope those 390 00:22:32,000 --> 00:22:34,240 moments haunt you for the rest of your days. You 391 00:22:34,319 --> 00:22:36,920 deserve no better. Now is the time to stand up 392 00:22:36,960 --> 00:22:39,759 and take accountability, put a stop to any future attempts 393 00:22:39,799 --> 00:22:42,359 at appeal, so we can let Libby rest in peace. 394 00:22:42,599 --> 00:22:43,640 Said mister Patty. 395 00:22:44,359 --> 00:22:47,759 Speaker 2: I wonder if he'll appeal. Most likely he will. Usually 396 00:22:47,799 --> 00:22:51,599 you do see appeals in most murder convictions. I hope 397 00:22:51,640 --> 00:22:54,960 his appeals go nowhere, because, as near as I can tell, 398 00:22:55,119 --> 00:22:59,960 this convict, as Mike Patty refers to them, has been 399 00:23:00,079 --> 00:23:04,839 and given every opportunity to prove his innocence and has 400 00:23:04,839 --> 00:23:05,480 failed to do so. 401 00:23:06,079 --> 00:23:08,880 Speaker 3: I really do. The fact that he does not give 402 00:23:09,240 --> 00:23:12,200 Richard Allen even the dignity of his own name. I 403 00:23:12,200 --> 00:23:14,599 think that was a great move on his part. And 404 00:23:14,640 --> 00:23:16,759 the fact that he and any of the other family 405 00:23:16,799 --> 00:23:19,559 members are able to stand up in court and face 406 00:23:19,640 --> 00:23:23,640 him speak to him in this way. This is an 407 00:23:23,680 --> 00:23:25,960 act of bravery, of which I don't think I would 408 00:23:25,960 --> 00:23:30,079 be capable. I have nothing but admiration for these families. 409 00:23:30,400 --> 00:23:33,319 Speaker 2: I saw an interesting article earlier today where they were 410 00:23:33,359 --> 00:23:39,480 discussing these recent commutations of federal death penalty sentences, and 411 00:23:39,599 --> 00:23:42,200 one of the things that the author said in the 412 00:23:42,400 --> 00:23:46,480 article was he was referencing specific cases, but he talked 413 00:23:46,519 --> 00:23:49,759 about the victims. In this case, there were multiple victims. 414 00:23:49,759 --> 00:23:54,160 These were people that have been killed in multiple murder incidents. 415 00:23:54,799 --> 00:23:56,759 He made a point of saying he was not going 416 00:23:56,799 --> 00:24:00,759 to mention the names of the offenders. Difference the case 417 00:24:00,839 --> 00:24:02,759 is so in ways that you were very clear who 418 00:24:02,759 --> 00:24:06,440 you were talking about. He refused to use the names, 419 00:24:06,839 --> 00:24:10,079 and I actually thought something we should probably all try 420 00:24:10,119 --> 00:24:11,880 to do that a bit more than we have. 421 00:24:12,680 --> 00:24:15,880 Speaker 3: That is something that I first picked up on from 422 00:24:15,920 --> 00:24:19,680 the folks of Real Crime Profile, who always make a 423 00:24:19,759 --> 00:24:23,759 point of saying the offender's name as few times as possible. 424 00:24:24,160 --> 00:24:27,039 Laura Richards, for example, really made a point when I 425 00:24:27,079 --> 00:24:30,119 was listening to their coverage about Nicole Brown Simpson and 426 00:24:30,240 --> 00:24:33,720 Ron Goldman of never referring to it as the OJ 427 00:24:33,839 --> 00:24:37,079 Simpson case, which most people did, yes and still do. 428 00:24:37,759 --> 00:24:39,960 It is not the OJ Simpson case. It is the 429 00:24:40,359 --> 00:24:44,039 Nicole Simpson and Ron Goldman case because they were the victims. 430 00:24:44,759 --> 00:24:48,039 His name needs to be out of the narrative entirely. 431 00:24:48,680 --> 00:24:51,519 And so I think that's really important, and that's something 432 00:24:51,599 --> 00:24:56,599 that I'm hoping as a culture, as a true crime community, 433 00:24:57,119 --> 00:24:59,079 that's something that we're going to try to spend a 434 00:24:59,079 --> 00:25:02,759 little bit more time focusing on really making sure that 435 00:25:02,799 --> 00:25:05,440 we don't give the offenders any more of a voice 436 00:25:05,480 --> 00:25:06,640 than they deserve to have. 437 00:25:07,519 --> 00:25:09,680 Speaker 2: I think we should all be trying to refer to 438 00:25:10,319 --> 00:25:13,039 the case we're discussing at this moment as the Delphi 439 00:25:13,200 --> 00:25:17,680 case or the Liberty German Abby Williams case. Let's try 440 00:25:18,200 --> 00:25:21,920 not to give the offenders in this and many other 441 00:25:22,039 --> 00:25:26,039 cases a voice because they deserve obscurity. 442 00:25:27,359 --> 00:25:30,400 Speaker 3: Yeah, agreed. And that statement there, Bill, I think is 443 00:25:30,599 --> 00:25:34,119 actually something that is going to play into our next 444 00:25:34,160 --> 00:25:36,720 point of discussion, the next case that we're discussing here. 445 00:25:36,839 --> 00:25:40,720 Very shortly, I want to finish up with a selection 446 00:25:41,119 --> 00:25:43,720 from the victim's impact statement from Becky Patty, and she 447 00:25:43,920 --> 00:25:49,640 is Liberty German's grandmother. It addresses not only the loss 448 00:25:49,680 --> 00:25:52,319 to their family in the terms of the things that 449 00:25:52,359 --> 00:25:55,480 the girls will no longer have or be able to experience. 450 00:25:55,839 --> 00:25:59,000 And it also discusses further the consequences of the crime 451 00:25:59,039 --> 00:26:02,720 scene photo for her family, which her husband referenced in 452 00:26:02,759 --> 00:26:05,920 his impact statement. This is from Becky Patty and she 453 00:26:06,480 --> 00:26:10,000 is speaking about the loss of Abby and Libby. Our 454 00:26:10,000 --> 00:26:12,359 lives turned upside down that day, never to be the 455 00:26:12,400 --> 00:26:15,119 same again. Abby and Libby two young teens with their 456 00:26:15,279 --> 00:26:18,480 entire futures ahead of them. They never got the opportunity 457 00:26:18,519 --> 00:26:20,599 to make their marks in the world. He stole that 458 00:26:20,640 --> 00:26:23,640 from them. Libby never got to go to prom, graduate, 459 00:26:23,680 --> 00:26:25,880 go on dates, go to college, get married, or start 460 00:26:25,920 --> 00:26:29,119 a family. She never got to be the best aunt ever. 461 00:26:29,559 --> 00:26:31,960 He robbed us. All the world was robbed of what 462 00:26:32,039 --> 00:26:34,799 could have been all the while he went on living 463 00:26:34,839 --> 00:26:36,960 his life. He was able to walk his daughter down 464 00:26:36,960 --> 00:26:39,480 the aisle and give her away at her wedding. I 465 00:26:39,559 --> 00:26:41,519 wonder did he think of the girls at all while 466 00:26:41,519 --> 00:26:44,920 walking her down that aisle. Our families will never get 467 00:26:44,960 --> 00:26:47,680 the privilege of watching Libby or Abby walk down the aisle. 468 00:26:48,000 --> 00:26:50,039 He took that away from us. 469 00:26:50,440 --> 00:26:54,359 Speaker 2: I had forgotten that. I was reading her impact statement 470 00:26:54,680 --> 00:26:57,799 that came back to me that I forgot his daughter 471 00:26:57,839 --> 00:26:59,920 had gotten married and that he had walked through down 472 00:27:00,119 --> 00:27:03,160 the aisle. I was shocked. How I must have put 473 00:27:03,240 --> 00:27:05,119 some of that out of my mind, because of course 474 00:27:05,160 --> 00:27:07,559 I tried not to think about him too much. I 475 00:27:07,599 --> 00:27:10,519 was mostly focused on the girls and their families and 476 00:27:10,640 --> 00:27:12,880 hoping that the would be justice at the end of 477 00:27:12,920 --> 00:27:17,640 this process. I'd forgotten that this guy is a father, 478 00:27:18,079 --> 00:27:21,440 and it just somehow it makes it even more creepy 479 00:27:21,480 --> 00:27:24,880 that he was walking his daughter down the aisle between 480 00:27:24,920 --> 00:27:28,119 the time that the murders took place and this eviction 481 00:27:28,680 --> 00:27:30,799 was announced on December. 482 00:27:30,400 --> 00:27:32,839 Speaker 3: Twentieth, It just boggles the mind. 483 00:27:35,079 --> 00:27:37,799 Speaker 2: You're listening to Mind over Murder. We'll be right back 484 00:27:38,039 --> 00:27:55,920 after this word from our sponsors. We're back here at 485 00:27:55,960 --> 00:27:56,880 mindover Murder. 486 00:28:00,000 --> 00:28:02,279 Speaker 3: And as Patty talked about the impact of the crime 487 00:28:02,279 --> 00:28:05,000 scene photo Elite in the same way that her husband did, 488 00:28:05,319 --> 00:28:07,039 this is the last portion that we're going to share 489 00:28:07,039 --> 00:28:09,160 with you all from that impact statement. The impact of 490 00:28:09,240 --> 00:28:12,119 Richard Allen's choices made that day has haunted our families 491 00:28:12,119 --> 00:28:14,880 for almost eight years and continues even now. Because of 492 00:28:14,960 --> 00:28:18,000 choices he made and subsequent arrest. He was appointed two 493 00:28:18,039 --> 00:28:20,720 lawyers to defend him. Those lawyers have done nothing but 494 00:28:20,799 --> 00:28:23,440 twist the knife around and around in our wounds Richard 495 00:28:23,480 --> 00:28:27,119 caused that day. Because of one lawyer's sloppiness, sealed crime 496 00:28:27,160 --> 00:28:30,799 scene photos of Libby's naked and mutilated body were left unattended, 497 00:28:30,880 --> 00:28:33,519 allowing images to be taken and spread around to people 498 00:28:33,559 --> 00:28:36,519 on the internet. As recent as this week, those crime 499 00:28:36,559 --> 00:28:38,880 scene photos were still being shared on the internet for 500 00:28:39,000 --> 00:28:42,759 no good reason but entertainment by many. Sharing those photos 501 00:28:42,839 --> 00:28:45,759 changes nothing. It doesn't solve the crime, it doesn't bring 502 00:28:45,799 --> 00:28:49,039 the girls back. So now, because of Richard Allen's choices 503 00:28:49,119 --> 00:28:52,160 that day and his lawyer's sloppiness, the impact has now 504 00:28:52,200 --> 00:28:55,680 become generational for us. One day, when Libby's nieces or 505 00:28:55,680 --> 00:28:58,240 nephews decide they want to learn more about their aunt Libby, 506 00:28:58,359 --> 00:29:01,200 they may be faced with those horrible crime scene photos 507 00:29:01,400 --> 00:29:04,359 that were so carelessly taken care of. I wonder if 508 00:29:04,359 --> 00:29:06,920 his lawyer would have been so careless with those photos 509 00:29:07,079 --> 00:29:09,200 if they were photos of one of his children. 510 00:29:09,720 --> 00:29:12,400 Speaker 2: You pick up on the anger and the hurt. She's 511 00:29:12,519 --> 00:29:16,640 right about every aspect of this. These lawyers were horrible. 512 00:29:16,880 --> 00:29:18,880 They have a job to do, as we talked about, 513 00:29:18,920 --> 00:29:23,920 but leaving crime team photos displayed out and on display 514 00:29:24,000 --> 00:29:27,200 in your conference room for any visitor to see is 515 00:29:27,440 --> 00:29:29,279 just unbelievably sloppy. 516 00:29:29,759 --> 00:29:31,839 Speaker 3: The word that I thought was most interesting to me 517 00:29:32,000 --> 00:29:35,839 was this concept of generational trauma, because it does become 518 00:29:35,880 --> 00:29:39,359 that this echoes down through generations. The one thing that 519 00:29:39,440 --> 00:29:45,480 I really recall from this past October when we dedicated 520 00:29:45,599 --> 00:29:50,559 Keith Call's monument at the Rosewelt Cemetery in Gloucester, I 521 00:29:50,640 --> 00:29:55,920 recall meeting Keith's siblings and then their children as well, 522 00:29:56,240 --> 00:29:59,319 but really did pit home for me. This doesn't just 523 00:29:59,400 --> 00:30:03,319 affect one generation of people. It carries on and on. 524 00:30:03,720 --> 00:30:06,559 I know you have a son, Bill, and I assume 525 00:30:06,599 --> 00:30:08,519 that at some point or another, if he has children, 526 00:30:08,559 --> 00:30:10,960 he'll have to explain to his kids this is what 527 00:30:11,119 --> 00:30:15,359 happened to Kathy. And that's not a conversation that anybody 528 00:30:15,359 --> 00:30:17,839 should relish. It must be awful to think. 529 00:30:17,640 --> 00:30:20,759 Speaker 2: About, no question about it. And this idea of a 530 00:30:20,880 --> 00:30:26,519 generational trauma is very real. These crimes have that ripple effect, 531 00:30:26,720 --> 00:30:30,240 like dropping a pebblon a pond, and it just ripples 532 00:30:30,240 --> 00:30:33,480 out further and further, obviously having the greatest impact on 533 00:30:33,559 --> 00:30:36,160 the people that were closest to that lost loved one, 534 00:30:36,200 --> 00:30:40,920 but the entire community is impacted by these things. It's 535 00:30:40,920 --> 00:30:45,279 heartbreaking to see Libyan Abbey's families go through this, and 536 00:30:45,400 --> 00:30:49,240 as painful as the process has been, it's situations like 537 00:30:49,319 --> 00:30:52,319 the leak of the crime scene photos and some of 538 00:30:52,359 --> 00:30:56,240 the incompetence of the law enforcement investigation which allowed this 539 00:30:56,359 --> 00:30:58,759 case to stretch on far longer than it should have. 540 00:30:59,000 --> 00:31:03,319 It's worth mentioning that this case wouldn't have broken if 541 00:31:03,359 --> 00:31:07,359 it weren't for a clerk going back through crime scene 542 00:31:07,440 --> 00:31:11,559 evidence and finding a misfiled report that gave a clear 543 00:31:11,599 --> 00:31:15,680 indication that the suspect put himself at the bridge on 544 00:31:15,839 --> 00:31:20,480 the day of the girl's little murder. Unfortunately, that very 545 00:31:20,519 --> 00:31:24,720 important interview was misfiled. It was not filed I think 546 00:31:24,799 --> 00:31:27,319 under his name, which is what it should have been. 547 00:31:27,440 --> 00:31:30,880 It was filed under the street name. If I'm not mistaken. 548 00:31:30,920 --> 00:31:32,880 I just read an article about this in the last 549 00:31:32,880 --> 00:31:35,759 twenty four hours and they were highlighting the fact that 550 00:31:35,799 --> 00:31:40,680 this clerk is responsible for not the misfile but finding 551 00:31:40,960 --> 00:31:44,480 that very important piece of information five years after the fact, 552 00:31:44,480 --> 00:31:47,000 that if she had not found that file, it might 553 00:31:47,200 --> 00:31:50,640 never have surfaced because there were so many documents and 554 00:31:50,759 --> 00:31:54,440 hundreds of interviews. Law enforcement was scrambling to try to 555 00:31:54,519 --> 00:31:59,039 move this case forward, and unfortunately mistakes happened. This misfile 556 00:31:59,519 --> 00:32:03,160 was something that led directly to this multi year delay 557 00:32:03,400 --> 00:32:07,759 in identifying Alan as a suspect, and they mentioned that 558 00:32:07,880 --> 00:32:11,839 within a month or so of the discovery of this 559 00:32:12,160 --> 00:32:16,119 missing interview, they realized that he was a very likely 560 00:32:16,240 --> 00:32:19,519 suspect and they began looking into him and it was 561 00:32:19,559 --> 00:32:23,440 within a matter of weeks they matched shells found at 562 00:32:23,480 --> 00:32:26,880 the scene to a gun that he owned, and they 563 00:32:26,920 --> 00:32:30,039 began to build a very strong case with a lot 564 00:32:30,079 --> 00:32:34,079 of evidence. That five year gap between the murder of 565 00:32:34,079 --> 00:32:38,519 the two girls and discovery this information was so critical 566 00:32:38,599 --> 00:32:42,400 and as a result of this clerk's review, the case 567 00:32:42,480 --> 00:32:43,839 began moving forward again. 568 00:32:44,240 --> 00:32:48,200 Speaker 3: I did find a couple of quotes from Abby's grandmother, 569 00:32:48,359 --> 00:32:52,240 Diane Erskin. She commented that the sentence scene was a 570 00:32:52,279 --> 00:32:54,599 day of great sadness for their family. She said, we 571 00:32:54,640 --> 00:32:57,759 will not be going home to celebrate with champagne. She 572 00:32:57,960 --> 00:33:01,319 also said, and it also speaks a lot, I think 573 00:33:01,359 --> 00:33:04,880 to her bravery. The last words that Abby spoke on 574 00:33:05,240 --> 00:33:08,839 Libby's phone, and I'm assuming that's the video depicting Bridge Guy. 575 00:33:09,200 --> 00:33:11,920 Her last words were, don't leave me up here. Her 576 00:33:11,960 --> 00:33:15,880 grandmother opted not to leave the Delphi trial, even during 577 00:33:15,960 --> 00:33:20,079 moments of really emotionally wrenching testimony, because she did not 578 00:33:20,200 --> 00:33:23,559 want to leave her granddaughter up there, and that just 579 00:33:23,599 --> 00:33:24,440 broke my heart. 580 00:33:25,240 --> 00:33:27,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, and she said, I will never be the same 581 00:33:27,519 --> 00:33:31,240 person I was before Abby's murder. And we'll link to 582 00:33:31,319 --> 00:33:34,920 the full impact statements, which are thoughtful and beautifully written, 583 00:33:35,000 --> 00:33:36,799 and we'll include those in our show notes. 584 00:33:37,279 --> 00:33:40,279 Speaker 3: Our second topic that we really want to delve into 585 00:33:40,640 --> 00:33:45,480 is the murder of United Healthcare CEO Brian Thompson by 586 00:33:45,559 --> 00:33:50,200 suspect Luigi Mangione. Mangione is a twenty six year old 587 00:33:50,400 --> 00:33:55,680 Ivy League educated gentleman with a wealthy family who murdered 588 00:33:55,720 --> 00:33:58,960 Thompson on the street outside the New York hotel where 589 00:33:59,000 --> 00:34:02,119 he was attending a conference. And that is seemingly out 590 00:34:02,160 --> 00:34:07,079 of a personal vendetta against the health insurance system. When 591 00:34:07,119 --> 00:34:10,119 this came to light, what two three weeks ago, maybe 592 00:34:10,119 --> 00:34:13,199 it's all running together. In that frantic period leading up 593 00:34:13,199 --> 00:34:17,119 to the holidays, it sounded like something out of a movie. 594 00:34:17,440 --> 00:34:20,679 Someone assassinating someone right on the street in New York, 595 00:34:20,800 --> 00:34:24,400 a man hunt chasing down all the CCTV leads. It 596 00:34:24,480 --> 00:34:25,280 was pretty crazy. 597 00:34:25,639 --> 00:34:29,360 Speaker 2: I have to be complementary of the NYPD and the 598 00:34:29,440 --> 00:34:34,519 law enforcement agencies that were involved. We've talked about situations 599 00:34:34,519 --> 00:34:38,639 where law enforcement does not seem to trust the American public, 600 00:34:38,760 --> 00:34:42,679 and this was a situation where it was by putting 601 00:34:42,800 --> 00:34:47,760 out the information and very importantly the images of this 602 00:34:48,000 --> 00:34:51,719 suspect that led directly to his being arrested a fairly 603 00:34:51,840 --> 00:34:55,840 short few days later. There's so many more cameras out 604 00:34:55,880 --> 00:34:56,920 there in the world. 605 00:34:56,920 --> 00:34:57,400 Speaker 3: Oh yeah. 606 00:34:57,440 --> 00:34:59,719 Speaker 2: And one of the things I thought was very smart 607 00:34:59,800 --> 00:35:02,400 on the part of law enforcement in the murder of 608 00:35:02,440 --> 00:35:06,360 Brian Thompson was they put out photographs almost as they 609 00:35:06,559 --> 00:35:11,119 found them. So the initial shots were dark and blurry, 610 00:35:11,320 --> 00:35:14,599 was early morning, but you could see the suspect walking 611 00:35:14,679 --> 00:35:17,960 up behind mister Thompson and shooting him, but they didn't 612 00:35:18,039 --> 00:35:22,079 show the suspect's face particularly clearly. What I thought was 613 00:35:22,239 --> 00:35:26,199 very smart was within twenty four hours, suddenly there were 614 00:35:26,280 --> 00:35:30,760 more photographs turning up as they retraced this man's steps. 615 00:35:30,800 --> 00:35:32,519 And then the next thing you know, you've got a 616 00:35:32,519 --> 00:35:36,599 photograph where he wasn't wearing the surgical mask which he'd 617 00:35:36,599 --> 00:35:40,159 been wearing in the I'll call it an assassination. So 618 00:35:40,360 --> 00:35:42,480 the next thing you know, we've got some photographs where 619 00:35:42,519 --> 00:35:47,079 he's smiling at the clerk at the hostel where he 620 00:35:47,239 --> 00:35:51,159 was staying. They said that he had stopped to flirt 621 00:35:51,199 --> 00:35:54,280 with this young woman who was behind the register that 622 00:35:54,360 --> 00:35:56,880 resulted in him taking off his mask. A couple of 623 00:35:57,000 --> 00:36:00,320 days later, they had photographs of him in the back 624 00:36:00,440 --> 00:36:04,239 seat of the cab, and of course I'd forgotten nowadays 625 00:36:04,360 --> 00:36:07,159 there are cameras in cabs, and so there was a 626 00:36:07,440 --> 00:36:11,320 very clear picture of him peeking through the gap where 627 00:36:11,320 --> 00:36:13,599 the little window is between the front seat and the 628 00:36:13,639 --> 00:36:16,079 back seat in a New York City cab. So they 629 00:36:16,119 --> 00:36:20,079 were able to put together a pretty good chronology of 630 00:36:20,559 --> 00:36:23,559 where the suspect had gone. He'd hopped on a city 631 00:36:23,599 --> 00:36:26,519 bike and had ridden into Central Park. Then they found 632 00:36:26,599 --> 00:36:29,800 a backpack that matched the backpack and the photographs and 633 00:36:29,920 --> 00:36:32,920 monopoly money, which is a very sort of odd detail. 634 00:36:33,280 --> 00:36:37,320 CCTV cameras showed him exiting Central Park further to the 635 00:36:37,360 --> 00:36:39,960 north and onto the west side. Then he jumps in 636 00:36:40,000 --> 00:36:42,119 a cab, which I think was a huge mistake. By 637 00:36:42,159 --> 00:36:45,280 the way, Oh yeah, because here he is in the 638 00:36:45,320 --> 00:36:47,760 back seat of a cab and his face is clearly 639 00:36:47,760 --> 00:36:51,480 showing up on the dashcam of the cabby. By putting 640 00:36:51,559 --> 00:36:55,480 those photographs out there and providing more and more information 641 00:36:55,679 --> 00:36:58,760 and fairly quickly to the American public, that meant that 642 00:36:58,800 --> 00:37:01,559 people all over the country we're looking for this guy. 643 00:37:02,039 --> 00:37:05,360 No one knew he was going to end up in Altoona, Pennsylvania, 644 00:37:05,440 --> 00:37:07,800 a couple of hours away from New York City. By 645 00:37:07,920 --> 00:37:11,519 putting out those photographs and getting them out on the 646 00:37:11,519 --> 00:37:15,519 internet national media, that allowed the public to play a 647 00:37:15,599 --> 00:37:17,559 role here. I know there's been some people who have 648 00:37:17,679 --> 00:37:22,199 expressed sympathy for the shooter, which I think is pretty absurd. 649 00:37:22,239 --> 00:37:25,320 A guy at least is charged with being a brutal 650 00:37:25,440 --> 00:37:30,599 murderer murdering a complete stranger. While I understand the frustration 651 00:37:30,880 --> 00:37:34,000 with the insurance industry, and I have my own stories 652 00:37:34,039 --> 00:37:38,760 about that, it doesn't make gunning down a father of 653 00:37:38,880 --> 00:37:43,440 two and a CEO of a company any more acceptable. 654 00:37:43,800 --> 00:37:47,400 Even though I think many of the business practices of 655 00:37:47,559 --> 00:37:51,800 America's insurance companies are completely reprehensible, I don't think gunning 656 00:37:51,920 --> 00:37:56,559 down the CEOs of those companies is really moving us forward. 657 00:37:56,920 --> 00:37:59,840 Speaker 3: No, I agree, and this sort of elevation to folk 658 00:38:00,159 --> 00:38:03,719 hero status that some people have compared him to. He's 659 00:38:03,760 --> 00:38:06,719 getting compared to Robin Hood and so on and so forth. 660 00:38:06,840 --> 00:38:08,320 I want to come back to that in a minute, 661 00:38:08,360 --> 00:38:12,119 because I do think exploring this concept of absurdity, which 662 00:38:12,159 --> 00:38:14,599 is what it is, is really important. One of the 663 00:38:14,599 --> 00:38:16,679 things that I was really intrigued by. When I was 664 00:38:16,719 --> 00:38:19,639 sitting down to do my research for this episode, I 665 00:38:19,679 --> 00:38:22,920 came across some excellent reporting from the CNN Crime and 666 00:38:23,079 --> 00:38:27,039 Justice Team, and they did a quite extensive article about 667 00:38:27,360 --> 00:38:32,559 trip from Huntington, Pennsylvania, where Mantani had been, and the 668 00:38:32,599 --> 00:38:36,800 trip that took him into New York for his first 669 00:38:36,840 --> 00:38:41,559 set of courtroom appearances. It was very interesting to me 670 00:38:41,760 --> 00:38:47,320 the way that they approached this particular attempt at transporting 671 00:38:47,480 --> 00:38:50,719 this guy. So I want to lay out what exactly 672 00:38:50,960 --> 00:38:53,880 happened and get your feeling. Is somebody who did live 673 00:38:53,880 --> 00:38:55,559 in New York for a while, I would love to 674 00:38:55,599 --> 00:38:58,559 know your thoughts on why precisely NYPD did this the 675 00:38:58,559 --> 00:39:02,079 way that they did. This Thursday the nineteenth, he was 676 00:39:02,119 --> 00:39:05,480 taken from Huntington, Pennsylvania, where he had been since his arrest, 677 00:39:05,719 --> 00:39:09,440 and was transported to Manhattan. The CNN Crime and Justice 678 00:39:09,480 --> 00:39:13,079 Team noted that there was an unusual amount of pomp 679 00:39:13,119 --> 00:39:16,679 and circumstance behind this, including a ride in a New 680 00:39:16,719 --> 00:39:20,840 York Police Department helicopter from from Islap, New York. He 681 00:39:20,920 --> 00:39:24,360 arrived at a heliport on Wall Street in said NYPD 682 00:39:24,480 --> 00:39:29,280 helicopter tourists were seen taking photos of him. When he arrived, 683 00:39:29,639 --> 00:39:32,960 CNN quoted as saying he was surrounded by a swarm 684 00:39:33,000 --> 00:39:37,719 of gun toting NYPG officers in a slow, lengthy purp 685 00:39:37,800 --> 00:39:41,239 walk from the helicopter into a black van, with cameras 686 00:39:41,280 --> 00:39:45,199 catching every step. It was almost Hannibal Lecter esque. Defense 687 00:39:45,239 --> 00:39:48,840 attorney Jeremy Saland told CNN and as soon as I 688 00:39:48,880 --> 00:39:53,559 started seeing photos of Mangione surrounded by police officers doing 689 00:39:53,559 --> 00:39:55,320 the sort of purp walk, I was like, Oh, that's 690 00:39:55,360 --> 00:39:58,559 exactly what it feels like. That moment in Silence of 691 00:39:58,599 --> 00:40:01,960 the Lambs when they're moving Lector from the Baltimore and 692 00:40:02,039 --> 00:40:04,480 Sane Asylum to Brushy Mountain State Prison and meet with 693 00:40:04,519 --> 00:40:07,760 the Senator to trade information about Buffalo Bill. That's really 694 00:40:07,760 --> 00:40:10,920 what it looked like. It actually sent chills down my spine. 695 00:40:11,000 --> 00:40:13,920 The CNN Crime and Justice Team wanted to get into 696 00:40:13,960 --> 00:40:17,000 that Purp Walk, and so they discussed the fact that 697 00:40:17,239 --> 00:40:21,159 right behind the New York Police Department officers escorting him 698 00:40:21,239 --> 00:40:24,599 were the Mayor Eric Adams and the New York Police 699 00:40:24,599 --> 00:40:27,920 Department Police Commissioner. Eric Adams was quoted as saying, we 700 00:40:28,000 --> 00:40:30,960 wanted to personally be here to show the symbolism of 701 00:40:31,079 --> 00:40:35,280 leading from the front. Another CNN correspondent on the ground said, 702 00:40:35,519 --> 00:40:37,800 I've never seen anything like this, but they want the 703 00:40:37,800 --> 00:40:41,360 photo opportunity to show what they believe we got our guy. 704 00:40:42,079 --> 00:40:45,719 Speaker 2: Yeah. Eric Adams has had his share of bad publicity 705 00:40:45,840 --> 00:40:49,679 in recent months, so I think he had his own 706 00:40:49,880 --> 00:40:52,800 reasons for wanting to be in those photographs. The whole 707 00:40:52,880 --> 00:40:56,840 Purp Walk thing has always baffled me. Law enforcement in 708 00:40:56,840 --> 00:40:59,400 New York and lots of other cities and towns across 709 00:40:59,440 --> 00:41:02,840 the country is very big on. As they move an 710 00:41:02,840 --> 00:41:06,119 offender who at that point hasn't been convicted of anything, 711 00:41:06,440 --> 00:41:09,360 He's only a suspect. From point A to point B, 712 00:41:09,679 --> 00:41:15,159 there is an effort made to parade this person before 713 00:41:15,199 --> 00:41:18,480 the public. I'm not saying I've never been interested in 714 00:41:18,679 --> 00:41:22,000 seeing Sometimes I am very interested in laying eyes on 715 00:41:22,199 --> 00:41:25,480 a particular suspect. This one included, but it strikes me 716 00:41:25,519 --> 00:41:29,440 as very strange. And then this lengthy walk from point 717 00:41:29,480 --> 00:41:31,840 A to point B, the whole thing just strikes me 718 00:41:31,880 --> 00:41:35,400 as very odd. But usually you'll see some even a 719 00:41:35,679 --> 00:41:39,639 suspect in a capital murder investigation with maybe a police 720 00:41:39,679 --> 00:41:44,199 officer on either side of them, not surrounded by everyone 721 00:41:44,559 --> 00:41:48,199 under the sun, all heavily armed, including the mayor and 722 00:41:48,280 --> 00:41:53,360 the police commissioner. Given the amount of negative publicity surrounding 723 00:41:53,679 --> 00:41:57,159 Mayor Eric Adams and the NYPD, I think they were 724 00:41:57,199 --> 00:41:59,639 looking for some good news, as they say. 725 00:42:00,079 --> 00:42:04,039 Speaker 3: I was really interested in this quote from a law 726 00:42:04,119 --> 00:42:07,719 enforcement and intelligence analyst at CNN. His name is John Miller. 727 00:42:08,000 --> 00:42:11,079 He said, the security around Manngione is because of what 728 00:42:11,119 --> 00:42:13,800 they've been seeing in terms of the public support for 729 00:42:13,920 --> 00:42:16,960 him and their security worries about someone not trying to 730 00:42:17,000 --> 00:42:20,679 attack him, but to try and free him from law enforcement. 731 00:42:21,039 --> 00:42:24,920 That blew my mind that would even cross their mind 732 00:42:25,119 --> 00:42:27,840 that somebody might try to free this guy's jail break 733 00:42:27,880 --> 00:42:30,559 him in the middle of this big, splashy purp walk. 734 00:42:30,760 --> 00:42:33,239 Speaker 2: I've never met John Miller, but I've been watching him 735 00:42:33,239 --> 00:42:35,960 on television for decades because, of course I lived in 736 00:42:36,000 --> 00:42:39,559 New York and he was the longtime spokesperson for the 737 00:42:39,679 --> 00:42:44,320 NYPD in addition to being an on camera reporter in 738 00:42:44,320 --> 00:42:46,800 New York. He knows what he's talking about, though, in 739 00:42:46,920 --> 00:42:51,840 terms of his sources inside law enforcement are impeccable because 740 00:42:51,840 --> 00:42:54,320 he knows so many people and has been around for 741 00:42:54,360 --> 00:42:57,880 so long. I thought that was an interesting observation that 742 00:42:57,960 --> 00:43:01,000 their concerns were about someone trying to break him out. 743 00:43:01,239 --> 00:43:05,239 I'm not sure that the parading of suspects, as I said, 744 00:43:05,239 --> 00:43:08,000 from point A to point B, is really necessary. It 745 00:43:08,079 --> 00:43:10,679 actually strikes me as fairly risky. 746 00:43:10,719 --> 00:43:14,039 Speaker 3: And prejudicial as well. One of the justice correspondents on 747 00:43:14,119 --> 00:43:17,800 CNN said, you are obviously, like right there, really highly 748 00:43:17,920 --> 00:43:21,559 prejudicing any potential jewelry pool against them because you've given 749 00:43:21,599 --> 00:43:24,119 them this big public spectacle, and. 750 00:43:24,039 --> 00:43:27,880 Speaker 2: You could load a suspect into a van, for example, 751 00:43:28,119 --> 00:43:31,840 inside a police garage and we would never see the suspect. 752 00:43:32,039 --> 00:43:35,440 This seems almost unnecessary. They do it all the time, 753 00:43:35,559 --> 00:43:38,320 so much so that it has that name perp Walk. 754 00:43:38,800 --> 00:43:41,719 Speaker 3: The fact that there was a lot of really heavy, 755 00:43:41,800 --> 00:43:45,559 especially on social media of course, support for what this 756 00:43:45,679 --> 00:43:49,400 man did to the CEO of United Healthcare, it absolutely 757 00:43:49,400 --> 00:43:53,199 baffled me. I have friends who I count to be 758 00:43:53,960 --> 00:43:57,920 very decent, moral people who were actually applauding the fact 759 00:43:58,000 --> 00:44:01,280 that he had plugged Brian tom send their words in 760 00:44:01,320 --> 00:44:04,400 the middle of the street. I said, are you absolutely 761 00:44:04,480 --> 00:44:08,079 kidding me? You're fine with somebody murdering another person in 762 00:44:08,159 --> 00:44:10,840 cold blood? And they said, Brian Thompson wasn't another person, 763 00:44:11,000 --> 00:44:13,960 he was a CEO scumbag who runs United Healthcare. 764 00:44:14,599 --> 00:44:19,760 Speaker 2: Gobsmacked me the frustration. But I sure, I don't see 765 00:44:19,800 --> 00:44:22,400 how that rises to the level we're all going to 766 00:44:22,400 --> 00:44:25,920 be applauding someone who's a brutal murderer who shot this 767 00:44:26,039 --> 00:44:26,639 man to death. 768 00:44:27,119 --> 00:44:30,119 Speaker 3: Yeah, I would. I think it's safe to say that 769 00:44:30,400 --> 00:44:33,519 we both have our own issues with health insurance in 770 00:44:33,559 --> 00:44:38,559 this country, as probably most people do. But I do not, 771 00:44:38,840 --> 00:44:41,519 in any way, shape or form, support any form of 772 00:44:41,599 --> 00:44:46,559 vigilanteism to show your dissatisfaction with the system as a whole. 773 00:44:46,840 --> 00:44:50,480 It's not something that you do in a civilized society. 774 00:44:51,159 --> 00:44:55,159 We don't stoop to vigilanteism. We just don't. The fact 775 00:44:55,159 --> 00:44:58,280 that there were people that I knew and liked who 776 00:44:58,360 --> 00:45:01,159 were like, you know what, it's totally fine that guy 777 00:45:01,239 --> 00:45:03,079 got what was that guy got what was coming to 778 00:45:03,159 --> 00:45:05,760 him really upset and disturbed me, and still continues to 779 00:45:05,800 --> 00:45:06,320 disturb me. 780 00:45:06,880 --> 00:45:09,960 Speaker 2: It'll be interesting to see what else comes out at trial. 781 00:45:10,360 --> 00:45:13,679 Recent articles I've read indicate that I'm not even sure 782 00:45:13,719 --> 00:45:19,320 that Manchione actually had selected Brian Thompson some of the 783 00:45:19,400 --> 00:45:22,159 articles I've read more recently, and I think we'll see 784 00:45:22,159 --> 00:45:24,519 a lot more of this in the coming weeks and months. 785 00:45:24,679 --> 00:45:26,639 I think he may have been willing to kill any 786 00:45:26,800 --> 00:45:30,800 CEO of any healthcare company, most of whom were attending 787 00:45:30,840 --> 00:45:35,119 that investor's conference that particular day. But I think this 788 00:45:35,159 --> 00:45:38,079 is a conversation that we'll have to continue. 789 00:45:38,280 --> 00:45:40,920 Speaker 3: So that is going to do it for this final 790 00:45:41,119 --> 00:45:44,840 episode for twenty twenty four of mind Over Murder. From 791 00:45:45,039 --> 00:45:49,719 our families to yours. Have a happy and healthy holiday season. 792 00:45:49,880 --> 00:45:51,760 Join us again in the new year as we start 793 00:45:51,800 --> 00:45:55,480 our fifth year of the mind Over Murder podcast, and 794 00:45:55,519 --> 00:45:58,519 we are committed to continuing to bring you excellent content. 795 00:45:58,880 --> 00:46:01,159 Thank you so much for listen name We'll see you 796 00:46:01,199 --> 00:46:01,639 next time. 797 00:46:10,840 --> 00:46:14,360 Speaker 1: Mind Over Murder is a production of Absolute Zero and 798 00:46:14,480 --> 00:46:15,920 Another Dog Productions. 799 00:46:16,480 --> 00:46:19,800 Speaker 2: Our executive producers are Bill Thomas and Kristin Dilley. 800 00:46:20,119 --> 00:46:22,559 Speaker 1: Our logo art is by Pamela Arnois. 801 00:46:23,199 --> 00:46:25,239 Speaker 2: Our theme music is by Kevin McLoud. 802 00:46:25,800 --> 00:46:29,719 Speaker 1: Mind Over Murder is distributed in partnership with crawl Space Media. 803 00:46:30,480 --> 00:46:33,639 Speaker 2: You can follow us on Facebook, Twitter, or Instagram. 804 00:46:33,840 --> 00:46:36,440 Speaker 1: You can also follow our page on the Colonial Parkway 805 00:46:36,519 --> 00:46:38,400 Murders on Facebook. 806 00:46:38,119 --> 00:46:41,159 Speaker 2: And finally, you can follow Bill Thomas on Twitter at 807 00:46:41,159 --> 00:46:42,800 Bill Thomas five six. 808 00:46:43,280 --> 00:46:46,360 Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to mind Over Murder. 809 00:47:01,199 --> 00:47:04,320 Speaker 3: No cont