WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.320 --> 00:00:03.600 Lucky Land Casino, asking people what's the weirdest place you've 2 00:00:03.600 --> 00:00:04.320 gotten lucky? 3 00:00:04.639 --> 00:00:05.000 Lucky? 4 00:00:05.240 --> 00:00:07.519 In line at the Delhi I guess ah, in my 5 00:00:07.639 --> 00:00:09.439 dentist's office more than once. 6 00:00:09.519 --> 00:00:11.199 Actually do I have to say? 7 00:00:11.320 --> 00:00:11.519 Yes? 8 00:00:11.560 --> 00:00:11.839 You do? 9 00:00:12.039 --> 00:00:14.519 In the car before my kid's PTA meeting? 10 00:00:14.679 --> 00:00:15.039 Really? 11 00:00:15.240 --> 00:00:15.480 Yes? 12 00:00:15.839 --> 00:00:18.160 Excuse me? What's the weirdest place you've gotten lucky? 13 00:00:18.320 --> 00:00:19.359 I never win? 14 00:00:19.440 --> 00:00:20.920 And tell well, there you have it. 15 00:00:20.920 --> 00:00:24.120 You could get lucky anywhere playing at lucky landsloughts dot com. 16 00:00:24.120 --> 00:00:26.480 Play for free right now? Are you feeling lucky? 17 00:00:26.600 --> 00:00:27.519 No produce necessary boid? 18 00:00:27.679 --> 00:00:29.120 Were going to my long eighteen plus terms and conditions 19 00:00:29.120 --> 00:00:29.480 of placy? 20 00:00:29.480 --> 00:00:30.320 Wats every details? 21 00:00:30.440 --> 00:00:31.519 Judy was boring? 22 00:00:31.719 --> 00:00:32.039 Hello? 23 00:00:32.320 --> 00:00:35.119 Then Judy discovered chumpacasino dot com. 24 00:00:35.159 --> 00:00:36.679 It's my little escape. 25 00:00:36.840 --> 00:00:38.399 Now Judy's the life of the party. 26 00:00:38.479 --> 00:00:40.600 Oh baby mama is bringing home the bacon. 27 00:00:40.799 --> 00:00:45.600 WHOA take it easy, judyum the chumba life that's for everybody. 28 00:00:45.679 --> 00:00:48.240 So go to chumpacasino dot com and play over one 29 00:00:48.320 --> 00:00:51.479 hundred casino style games. Join today and play for free 30 00:00:51.479 --> 00:00:56.039 for your chance to redeem some serious prices. Jump chumpacasino 31 00:00:56.119 --> 00:00:58.320 dot com. No PA's necessary weight. We're going hitt by 32 00:00:58.479 --> 00:01:00.039 eighteen plus terms and conditioned to placey y. 33 00:01:00.960 --> 00:01:02.280 Lop talk Radian. 34 00:01:11.359 --> 00:01:14.760 You are now listening to True Murder, The most shocking 35 00:01:14.879 --> 00:01:17.879 killers in true crime history and the authors that have 36 00:01:18.000 --> 00:01:25.519 written about them. Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker, Dck. Every Week, 37 00:01:25.719 --> 00:01:29.560 another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and infamous 38 00:01:29.599 --> 00:01:33.560 killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host 39 00:01:34.000 --> 00:01:37.120 journalist and author Dan Zufanski. 40 00:01:46.760 --> 00:01:50.840 Good Evening. Stephen Singular is the author of twenty five 41 00:01:51.159 --> 00:01:55.280 nonfiction books, many of them about high profile criminal cases. 42 00:01:56.239 --> 00:01:59.640 His first book in nineteen eighty seven was Talk to Death, 43 00:02:00.280 --> 00:02:03.000 The Life and Murder of Alan Berg, which became the 44 00:02:03.079 --> 00:02:06.959 basis for the nineteen eighty nine Oliver Stone film Talk 45 00:02:07.120 --> 00:02:11.240 Radio and set the tone for his journalistic career. Since 46 00:02:11.400 --> 00:02:15.520 nineteen ninety one, Denver native Joyce Jocks Singular has partnered 47 00:02:15.560 --> 00:02:18.840 with Stephen on eight of the true crime books. The 48 00:02:18.960 --> 00:02:21.680 nineteen ninety five study of the O. J. Simpson case, 49 00:02:22.280 --> 00:02:27.039 Legacy of Deception, went beneath the media hysteria hysteria surrounding 50 00:02:27.080 --> 00:02:30.560 these murders and explored the racial underpinnings of the case. 51 00:02:32.199 --> 00:02:36.120 In their nineteen ninety nine book Presumed Guilty, an investigation 52 00:02:36.240 --> 00:02:38.800 into the John beIN Ay Ramsay case, the media and 53 00:02:38.879 --> 00:02:42.120 the culture of pornography. They conducted a similar probe for 54 00:02:42.199 --> 00:02:46.400 the infamous child killing and Boulder, Colorado in two thousand 55 00:02:46.439 --> 00:02:50.319 and fifteen the Spiral Notebook, The Aurora Theater Shooter and 56 00:02:50.400 --> 00:02:54.080 the Epidemic of Mass Violence Committed by American Youth, and 57 00:02:54.159 --> 00:02:58.719 in two thousand and sixteen, Shadow on the Mountain, Nancy Feister, 58 00:02:59.039 --> 00:03:02.000 Doctor William Style and the Murder of Asmen's Golden Girl. 59 00:03:03.120 --> 00:03:06.639 The singulars have an intense interest in the psychological aspects 60 00:03:06.639 --> 00:03:10.439 of murder, which has shaped their work together as forensic journalists. 61 00:03:11.199 --> 00:03:13.520 A number of their books have focused on the intersection 62 00:03:13.639 --> 00:03:16.919 of religion and violence, including their two thousand and six 63 00:03:17.039 --> 00:03:20.479 book Unholy met Life and Crimes of the BTK serial 64 00:03:20.599 --> 00:03:25.840 Killer and the Wichita Divide, The Murder of Doctor George Tiller, 65 00:03:26.120 --> 00:03:29.599 and The Battle over Abortion. Also their books include A 66 00:03:29.719 --> 00:03:32.960 Killing in the Family, Sweet Evil, and Charmed to Death. 67 00:03:33.759 --> 00:03:35.680 Anyone You Want Me to Be? The story of the 68 00:03:35.759 --> 00:03:39.199 internet's first known serial killer, was co authored with John 69 00:03:39.280 --> 00:03:43.400 Douglas and in two thousand and six, When Men Became 70 00:03:43.719 --> 00:03:48.120 Become Gods, Mormon polygamist Warren Jeff's His Cult of Fear 71 00:03:48.560 --> 00:03:51.719 and the Women Who Fought Back. Stephen and Joyce are 72 00:03:51.759 --> 00:03:55.560 currently working on an mythology about national and international cult 73 00:03:55.639 --> 00:04:00.879 leaders to be published in the summer twenty twenty. Stephen 74 00:04:00.960 --> 00:04:05.240 and joy Singular True Crime Retrospective. Welcome back to the program, 75 00:04:05.360 --> 00:04:08.240 and thank you so very much for this interview. Joyce 76 00:04:08.439 --> 00:04:09.800 and Steven Singular. 77 00:04:11.199 --> 00:04:12.159 Thank you for having us. 78 00:04:12.240 --> 00:04:13.199 Yeah, it's good to be back. 79 00:04:13.319 --> 00:04:19.519 Dan, thank you very much. Let's talk Stephen right away 80 00:04:19.639 --> 00:04:24.199 with what you were doing your work as a freelance journalist. 81 00:04:24.920 --> 00:04:27.639 We mentioned, I mentioned that you are the author of 82 00:04:27.720 --> 00:04:33.319 twenty five nonfiction books. Tell us about what happened how 83 00:04:33.360 --> 00:04:35.240 you came to be the author of Talk to Death. 84 00:04:35.279 --> 00:04:38.639 Give us those circumstances in which you became involved. 85 00:04:38.920 --> 00:04:42.720 Well, very quickly. I grew up in rural Kansas, and 86 00:04:42.839 --> 00:04:45.040 I was very attached to the radio. It was the 87 00:04:45.160 --> 00:04:48.240 medium that I was most drawn to. In a small town, 88 00:04:48.360 --> 00:04:52.040 you know, you could hear Chicago and New Orleans, Kansas City, 89 00:04:52.120 --> 00:04:54.560 all that. So when I moved to Denver nineteen eighty 90 00:04:54.639 --> 00:04:59.360 one in September, I turned on the radio and I 91 00:04:59.439 --> 00:05:03.319 heard this and talking very fast and with his nasal voice, 92 00:05:03.959 --> 00:05:07.759 and he was talking about anti semitism and racism in America, 93 00:05:07.879 --> 00:05:11.120 which I had always been interested in. But he was 94 00:05:11.279 --> 00:05:15.920 highly provocative and his name was Alan Berg, and I 95 00:05:16.639 --> 00:05:19.560 decided I had to get to know who this was 96 00:05:19.680 --> 00:05:22.600 and maybe write about him. I'd never really had any 97 00:05:22.879 --> 00:05:27.160 interest much in crime before, but I met him, wrote 98 00:05:27.160 --> 00:05:31.120 about him for the Denver Post of Sunday Magazine, and 99 00:05:31.199 --> 00:05:33.720 then in June of nineteen eighty four, he was gunned 100 00:05:33.759 --> 00:05:38.519 down in his driveway and people thought at the time 101 00:05:38.720 --> 00:05:42.839 just one enraged listener had probably taken him out, but 102 00:05:43.000 --> 00:05:47.920 that launched a huge investigation across the United States. And 103 00:05:49.360 --> 00:05:51.600 right after he was killed, I was asked by Rolling 104 00:05:51.720 --> 00:05:54.560 Stone I knew the editor there to write about Berg, 105 00:05:54.639 --> 00:05:56.480 and we were all assuming again it was just an 106 00:05:56.519 --> 00:06:00.279 individual that had killed him, but his things unfolded. It 107 00:06:00.399 --> 00:06:03.319 turned out that there was a group from the Northwest 108 00:06:03.399 --> 00:06:06.839 called the Order, a group of neo Nazis, kind of 109 00:06:06.920 --> 00:06:11.959 the Grandfather's godfathers to the white nationalist movement today, and 110 00:06:12.439 --> 00:06:16.639 they had committed two hundred and forty crimes. They had 111 00:06:16.720 --> 00:06:20.399 stolen about five million dollars, they had killed four other 112 00:06:20.519 --> 00:06:25.319 people besides Burg, and their activities launched the largest investigation 113 00:06:26.160 --> 00:06:30.279 into domestic terrorism in American history at that time, so 114 00:06:31.000 --> 00:06:34.120 it kind of fell into my lap. I'd known Berg 115 00:06:34.199 --> 00:06:37.839 a bit, you know, when he was living, and then 116 00:06:38.079 --> 00:06:39.959 I was asked to write about this, and then when 117 00:06:40.040 --> 00:06:43.399 it unfolded as this much much bigger story than just him, 118 00:06:44.279 --> 00:06:46.160 I thought, you know, I'd like to write a book 119 00:06:46.199 --> 00:06:51.800 about this. So I proceeded from there, and it's really 120 00:06:52.120 --> 00:06:55.439 the story of Berg and the story of the people 121 00:06:55.480 --> 00:06:59.040 who killed him, you know, doing the work, I thought, 122 00:06:59.360 --> 00:07:01.920 I really like this. I like being in courtrooms, I 123 00:07:02.079 --> 00:07:05.480 like watching lawyers work, seeing how the criminal justice system works. 124 00:07:06.000 --> 00:07:10.000 So it was just a launching pad for doing this, 125 00:07:10.680 --> 00:07:11.879 you know. Ever since. 126 00:07:13.879 --> 00:07:17.079 Right now you said it's set the tone for your 127 00:07:17.160 --> 00:07:22.480 journalistic career in what way in that very first book 128 00:07:22.560 --> 00:07:25.040 that you wrote through crime book, what were some of 129 00:07:25.079 --> 00:07:28.639 the things that you learned and in retrospect now you 130 00:07:28.720 --> 00:07:32.519 could see where valuable and did set the course for 131 00:07:32.720 --> 00:07:35.839 the tone and the direction of your true crime writing career. 132 00:07:37.000 --> 00:07:40.720 Well, one of the things I learned, which has echoed 133 00:07:40.759 --> 00:07:45.199 through some of the other books, is that you have 134 00:07:45.959 --> 00:07:50.839 when people spew out hateful rhetoric, racist rhetoric, things of 135 00:07:50.920 --> 00:07:56.079 that nature, they may not be the one who's actually 136 00:07:56.199 --> 00:08:01.240 involved in the crime, but they that information hits other people, 137 00:08:01.399 --> 00:08:04.519 and some of those people may not be very stable emotional, 138 00:08:04.920 --> 00:08:08.920 emotionally or mentally, and that filters out and it has 139 00:08:09.160 --> 00:08:12.839 very significant consequences. I mean, this has been prominent in 140 00:08:12.879 --> 00:08:17.480 our culture in the last few years that when people 141 00:08:18.000 --> 00:08:20.360 do these things and then when bad, you know, bad 142 00:08:20.439 --> 00:08:23.319 things happen or people get killed, they often say, well, 143 00:08:23.319 --> 00:08:24.959 I had nothing to do with that. I was just 144 00:08:25.160 --> 00:08:29.879 exercising free speech. But this occurs in the Burg, in 145 00:08:30.000 --> 00:08:33.000 the Berg murder, and then twenty five years later when 146 00:08:33.080 --> 00:08:37.919 doctor Tiller is killed by Scott Rohder in Wichita, Kansas. 147 00:08:38.399 --> 00:08:42.480 You see the same dynamics in play. You know, Bill 148 00:08:42.600 --> 00:08:45.240 Riley was going on Bill O'Reilly was going on Fox 149 00:08:45.360 --> 00:08:48.320 News Night after nine and saying Tiller the baby killer 150 00:08:48.440 --> 00:08:52.200 and spewing a lot of inflammatory rhetoric, and then somebody 151 00:08:52.320 --> 00:08:56.360 shows up and actually takes the action. So this dynamic, 152 00:08:56.759 --> 00:09:00.840 you know, was something that I identified early on, and 153 00:09:01.360 --> 00:09:03.759 I think it you know, it became an important theme 154 00:09:03.840 --> 00:09:04.840 in a number of the books. 155 00:09:06.320 --> 00:09:10.639 Right certainly, now, what is the next book? According to 156 00:09:10.919 --> 00:09:13.039 what I've seen, is that a killing in the Family 157 00:09:13.480 --> 00:09:15.679 is the next book? If I'm not correct, tell me 158 00:09:15.799 --> 00:09:23.039 which book is next? Yeah, and Joyce, by that time 159 00:09:23.159 --> 00:09:26.879 you have joined his co author with this book. 160 00:09:27.039 --> 00:09:30.360 Now, actually that book was just about That book had 161 00:09:30.440 --> 00:09:33.840 already come out, a very interesting story about a man 162 00:09:34.080 --> 00:09:38.919 in California that the coerced and really persuaded his young 163 00:09:39.000 --> 00:09:43.679 stepdaughter to kill his wife. And that was made into 164 00:09:43.759 --> 00:09:46.840 a television movie. And but right when I met Steve, 165 00:09:47.120 --> 00:09:51.080 that was just coming out onto television, and Steve had 166 00:09:51.120 --> 00:09:53.120 given me a copy of Talk to Death and we 167 00:09:53.440 --> 00:09:56.279 discussed his book. I was very interested. I've been interested 168 00:09:56.320 --> 00:09:58.879 in true crime before I met Steve. I would read 169 00:09:59.039 --> 00:10:01.799 like The Killer besides me, and you know, we both 170 00:10:01.840 --> 00:10:05.320 shared an interest in Cold Blood by Truman Capoti. So 171 00:10:05.480 --> 00:10:07.440 we had a lot in common. We liked, you know, 172 00:10:07.480 --> 00:10:11.879 we're very fascinated by the psychological elements. What drives people? 173 00:10:12.159 --> 00:10:15.759 How could somebody that appears so seemingly normal commit these 174 00:10:15.799 --> 00:10:19.240 types of acts? That's really what you know, we were 175 00:10:19.279 --> 00:10:23.000 both interested in, not the sensationalistic, you know, gore factor. 176 00:10:23.759 --> 00:10:26.200 And so when Killing in the Family came out, you know, 177 00:10:26.840 --> 00:10:29.399 we watched that on television. It was very well done. 178 00:10:30.240 --> 00:10:34.200 And then what happened was we were by that time 179 00:10:34.480 --> 00:10:38.440 living together in Denver, and there was a trial going 180 00:10:38.480 --> 00:10:40.840 on in Colorado Springs, which is just south of Denver, 181 00:10:42.159 --> 00:10:45.120 and there was a young woman named Jennifer really who 182 00:10:46.320 --> 00:10:49.519 This is one of those books where religion intersected with violence. 183 00:10:50.840 --> 00:10:54.679 Basically this long story short. She was married with a 184 00:10:54.720 --> 00:10:57.120 couple of young children. She got involved with a man 185 00:10:57.200 --> 00:11:00.000 named Brian Hood who also had I think three young children. 186 00:11:00.720 --> 00:11:03.720 They started an affair. He told her that it would 187 00:11:03.759 --> 00:11:08.440 be okay. He was very involved in like evangelical Christianity, 188 00:11:08.480 --> 00:11:11.360 and he told her, he persuaded her, this is a 189 00:11:11.399 --> 00:11:14.360 woman that had never even had a parking ticket, very smart, 190 00:11:14.440 --> 00:11:20.080 intelligent woman, very nice, right to kill his wife. She 191 00:11:20.279 --> 00:11:25.120 gunned down his wife and dressed up in her husband's 192 00:11:25.200 --> 00:11:29.720 army fatigues. And he told her that it would be okay, 193 00:11:30.000 --> 00:11:32.799 that God would forgive her. You know, he wouldn't forgive adultery, 194 00:11:32.840 --> 00:11:36.799 but he would forgive this murder murderous act if she 195 00:11:37.000 --> 00:11:40.360 just then repented. So what happened was I started going 196 00:11:40.440 --> 00:11:43.840 down to the trials with Steve, the murder trials and 197 00:11:43.879 --> 00:11:47.919 the insanity hearings, and what I noticed, what happened was 198 00:11:48.039 --> 00:11:52.159 that it happened strictly by accident. I had noticed things 199 00:11:52.200 --> 00:11:55.320 that Steve wasn't noticing because you know, it was sort 200 00:11:55.320 --> 00:11:58.480 of like two genders are better than one. And I 201 00:11:58.559 --> 00:12:01.519 would tell him things about what the defendant was wearing 202 00:12:01.679 --> 00:12:05.799 to come, you know, to appear more you know, innocent looking, 203 00:12:06.559 --> 00:12:08.960 and I would tell Steve things that I had overheard 204 00:12:09.000 --> 00:12:11.519 in the women's restroom, say what people were talking about. 205 00:12:12.000 --> 00:12:14.840 So we found that, you know, the combination of my 206 00:12:15.240 --> 00:12:20.960 observations and Steve's observations, you know, started producing like a 207 00:12:21.080 --> 00:12:25.159 wider perspective of what was going on in one particular case. 208 00:12:26.399 --> 00:12:30.440 Right, and women were very interested in that case because, 209 00:12:31.080 --> 00:12:33.840 as joy said, this was like the woman next door, 210 00:12:33.960 --> 00:12:37.440 you know, never caused trouble, never did anything bad, you know, 211 00:12:37.600 --> 00:12:42.000 how did she evolve from that into a cold blooded killer? 212 00:12:42.120 --> 00:12:44.000 So there were lots and lots of women at the 213 00:12:44.360 --> 00:12:48.039 at the legal proceedings, and Joyce you know, spoke with them, 214 00:12:48.120 --> 00:12:50.879 and that added ave dimension to the book. 215 00:12:51.159 --> 00:12:54.480 And later on we in one of the rare instances 216 00:12:54.519 --> 00:12:58.519 where we were actually able to interview the subject of 217 00:12:58.600 --> 00:13:02.320 one of the books. We years later after that book 218 00:13:02.360 --> 00:13:05.039 had come out, we were contacted by a man who 219 00:13:05.360 --> 00:13:09.000 was in a ministry down in Canyon City, Colorado, where 220 00:13:09.120 --> 00:13:12.720 Jennifer was then imprisoned in the women's prison, and he 221 00:13:12.919 --> 00:13:16.159 told us that she wanted some copies of the book 222 00:13:16.240 --> 00:13:19.039 to send to her children because her husband had told 223 00:13:19.720 --> 00:13:21.919 her children that she had died in a house fire. 224 00:13:22.519 --> 00:13:25.480 And then but when the children got old enough, they 225 00:13:25.600 --> 00:13:27.960 started going on the internet and they saw that she 226 00:13:28.480 --> 00:13:30.600 hadn't died in a house fire. So what happened was 227 00:13:30.679 --> 00:13:34.080 we we went down to the prison and visited her, 228 00:13:34.960 --> 00:13:38.879 and that was really a unique experience for us to 229 00:13:38.960 --> 00:13:42.360 actually sit across from someone. You know, she had been 230 00:13:42.879 --> 00:13:44.919 I think it was life without parole that she got, 231 00:13:45.960 --> 00:13:48.639 so she had no chance of getting out, and she 232 00:13:48.799 --> 00:13:51.519 wanted to eventually write her own book, and so we 233 00:13:51.600 --> 00:13:55.480 were able to kind of really ask her about, you know, why, 234 00:13:56.080 --> 00:13:59.960 how could you have done something like this? Very bright woman, 235 00:14:00.159 --> 00:14:02.320 I mean, someone that you would have wanted to be 236 00:14:02.600 --> 00:14:06.480 your friend, so personable, charming, you know, everything you would 237 00:14:06.519 --> 00:14:08.879 want in a friend. And I remember looking at her 238 00:14:08.960 --> 00:14:11.759 hands in prison and just thinking that those are the 239 00:14:11.840 --> 00:14:14.639 hands that actually picked up a gun and gunned down 240 00:14:14.679 --> 00:14:18.720 another human being in cold blood. Very surreal experience, but 241 00:14:19.039 --> 00:14:22.279 we found that when we tried getting to the moment 242 00:14:22.360 --> 00:14:26.279 of committing the crime, that she was sort of in 243 00:14:26.399 --> 00:14:29.360 denial about it. It was kind of like the devil 244 00:14:29.440 --> 00:14:32.039 made me do it type of response. And when we 245 00:14:32.120 --> 00:14:34.200 knew then that we couldn't we couldn't go any further 246 00:14:34.320 --> 00:14:37.519 with her, She couldn't process it in a normal fashion. 247 00:14:38.320 --> 00:14:43.200 Yeah, it was, but it was very intriguing situation really 248 00:14:43.320 --> 00:14:48.120 because she still was seemingly a very nice person. So it, 249 00:14:48.240 --> 00:14:50.120 you know, brings you back to sort of the core 250 00:14:50.279 --> 00:14:53.200 question around all true crime. You know, what is the 251 00:14:53.320 --> 00:14:55.399 nature of evil? I mean, how does it work? How 252 00:14:55.440 --> 00:14:57.879 does it work inside of a person? You know, is 253 00:14:57.960 --> 00:15:00.759 it just there during the moment and then you know, 254 00:15:00.919 --> 00:15:04.240 does it go away? So it was a fascinating story. 255 00:15:07.320 --> 00:15:11.840 Let's talk about Sweet Evil. What was on the surface, 256 00:15:11.919 --> 00:15:15.600 It seems like somewhat of a routine or somewhat routine 257 00:15:15.720 --> 00:15:18.519 murder story. Tell us something about sweet evil. 258 00:15:19.879 --> 00:15:22.080 That is the Sweet Evil book. I mean that the 259 00:15:22.519 --> 00:15:27.759 story of Jennifer reality is that that story and the 260 00:15:27.840 --> 00:15:32.799 core question again at the center of it is basically psychological. 261 00:15:32.960 --> 00:15:36.759 You know, a psychological study of this person who you know, 262 00:15:36.919 --> 00:15:39.960 came from a very good family, we met her parents, 263 00:15:40.080 --> 00:15:45.600 wonderful people, all the opportunities in the world, and you know, 264 00:15:45.960 --> 00:15:49.919 just just the accumulation of bad decisions. I mean, you 265 00:15:50.000 --> 00:15:52.039 see this a lot in true crime, you know, where 266 00:15:53.240 --> 00:15:55.759 this man comes along and starts to tempt her and 267 00:15:56.320 --> 00:15:59.200 and he's a master manipulator at getting her to do 268 00:15:59.799 --> 00:16:02.799 what thing, small thing, you know, Go get your husband's 269 00:16:02.840 --> 00:16:06.559 clothes and show them to me. You know, does your 270 00:16:06.639 --> 00:16:10.159 husband have a gun? You know, could you show that 271 00:16:10.360 --> 00:16:12.639 to me? And it's he was a salesman and he 272 00:16:12.840 --> 00:16:15.200 just you know, one of the sales techniques is to 273 00:16:15.240 --> 00:16:17.440 get people to say yes and yes and yes, and 274 00:16:17.519 --> 00:16:20.320 then finally you close the deal. And that's exactly what 275 00:16:20.480 --> 00:16:23.639 he did with her. So her, the character study of 276 00:16:23.759 --> 00:16:27.600 her at the center of this was was what sort 277 00:16:27.639 --> 00:16:30.320 of created the mystery. I mean, you knew what happened, 278 00:16:30.720 --> 00:16:33.440 but you were everybody was groping for the why of 279 00:16:33.559 --> 00:16:36.279 it because people liked her, but you know, she had 280 00:16:36.360 --> 00:16:37.840 done this unfathomable thing. 281 00:16:38.000 --> 00:16:40.559 And if I may say one thing, the title sweet Evil, 282 00:16:40.639 --> 00:16:44.320 the reason Steve called it that was because that was 283 00:16:44.399 --> 00:16:48.399 her quote, she said that brian Hood had sweetened the evil. 284 00:16:48.960 --> 00:16:49.159 Yeah. 285 00:16:49.559 --> 00:16:52.879 And then also that was when I started noticing the 286 00:16:53.720 --> 00:16:57.759 really paying attention to the collateral damage that these killers 287 00:16:57.919 --> 00:17:01.440 do to the families, to their extent families, to their friends, 288 00:17:02.360 --> 00:17:05.960 the ripple effect of an act like this for their children. 289 00:17:06.440 --> 00:17:09.599 You know, it's just it's unfathomable what an act like 290 00:17:09.680 --> 00:17:12.359 that can do as far as mass damage. 291 00:17:13.079 --> 00:17:16.359 Yeah, Like Brian Hood, the one who talked her into this, 292 00:17:17.000 --> 00:17:21.119 had three young children, and so he gets Jennifer to 293 00:17:21.240 --> 00:17:24.240 gun down his wife and then he gets convicted with 294 00:17:24.319 --> 00:17:28.720 the thirty year prison and something like that, and his parents, 295 00:17:28.759 --> 00:17:31.519 who are in their sixties. Then you know, inherit these 296 00:17:31.599 --> 00:17:34.079 three young kids and have to raise them. And again 297 00:17:34.160 --> 00:17:37.920 it's just the tendrils that come out from a tragedy 298 00:17:38.160 --> 00:17:39.559 like this. We're very moving. 299 00:17:41.839 --> 00:17:48.799 You talk about collateral damage, ripple effect, mass damage. One 300 00:17:48.839 --> 00:17:52.279 of the incredible true crime classics that you have written 301 00:17:52.920 --> 00:17:56.759 together is Legacy of Deception investigation of Mark Furman in 302 00:17:56.920 --> 00:18:01.240 Racism in the LAPD. Tell us a little bit about 303 00:18:01.480 --> 00:18:04.880 legacy of deception and really what this story was about 304 00:18:05.359 --> 00:18:08.000 when you looked into investigated Mark Farman. 305 00:18:09.160 --> 00:18:13.559 Well, I'll try to condense it. It's a very long, 306 00:18:13.640 --> 00:18:16.440 complicated story, but again it builds on the first book 307 00:18:16.519 --> 00:18:19.359 The Brooke Talked to Death, which was which came out 308 00:18:19.400 --> 00:18:22.319 in nineteen eighty seven. But in nineteen eighty five and 309 00:18:22.480 --> 00:18:27.920 six I had interviewed a number of people about far 310 00:18:28.079 --> 00:18:33.440 right groups, many of them in the far West, Neo Nazis, 311 00:18:34.400 --> 00:18:36.960 fellow travelers in that realm, and I got to know 312 00:18:37.160 --> 00:18:41.279 people in law enforcement who were investigating those types of folks, 313 00:18:42.039 --> 00:18:45.519 and so some of those were in southern California. There 314 00:18:45.599 --> 00:18:50.440 was a very strong group down there called arm Anyway, 315 00:18:50.880 --> 00:18:54.559 the Simpson case erupts in June of nineteen ninety four, 316 00:18:54.720 --> 00:18:57.200 ten years almost to the day after the bird killing, 317 00:18:58.000 --> 00:19:01.160 and about six or seven weeks went by and we 318 00:19:01.319 --> 00:19:02.359 got a call with. 319 00:19:02.559 --> 00:19:05.920 Lucky Land Slots. You can get lucky just about anywhere. 320 00:19:06.200 --> 00:19:09.559 Dearly beloved, we are gathered here today. Has anyone seen 321 00:19:09.640 --> 00:19:10.400 the bride and groom? 322 00:19:11.119 --> 00:19:12.480 Ri Sorry, we're here. 323 00:19:12.759 --> 00:19:14.640 We were getting lucky in the limo and we lost 324 00:19:14.680 --> 00:19:15.200 track of time. 325 00:19:15.920 --> 00:19:18.720 No Lucky Land casino with cash prizes that add up 326 00:19:18.759 --> 00:19:19.960 quicker than a guess registered. 327 00:19:20.400 --> 00:19:22.359 In that case, I pronounce you Lucky. 328 00:19:23.039 --> 00:19:23.680 Thanks for free. 329 00:19:23.720 --> 00:19:27.119 At Lucky landslots dot com. Daily bonuses are waiting, no 330 00:19:27.279 --> 00:19:29.720 purchase necessary board. We're prohibited by lock eight team plus 331 00:19:29.880 --> 00:19:32.039 terms and conditions applack see website for details. 332 00:19:32.640 --> 00:19:34.720 It is Ryan here, and I have a question for you. 333 00:19:35.160 --> 00:19:37.039 What do you do when you win? 334 00:19:37.480 --> 00:19:37.519 Like? 335 00:19:37.640 --> 00:19:40.799 Are you at fist pumper, A wooo, a handclapper, a 336 00:19:40.880 --> 00:19:42.640 high fiver? I kind of like the high five. But 337 00:19:42.720 --> 00:19:44.319 if you want to hone in on those winning moves, 338 00:19:44.519 --> 00:19:47.599 check out Chumbuck Casino. At chumbacasino dot com choose some 339 00:19:47.759 --> 00:19:50.319 hundreds of social casino style games for your chance to 340 00:19:50.400 --> 00:19:54.119 redeem serious cash prizes. There are new game releases weekly, 341 00:19:54.200 --> 00:19:57.079 plus free daily bonuses, so don't wait start having the 342 00:19:57.119 --> 00:19:59.839 most fun ever at Chumbuck Casino dot com. 343 00:20:00.000 --> 00:20:03.160 The Bilberg Never Lost or Magnation's eating liss. 344 00:20:03.039 --> 00:20:07.160 Here from somebody in law enforcement in southern California whom 345 00:20:07.200 --> 00:20:11.799 I had known because of that experience, and basically said, 346 00:20:12.200 --> 00:20:14.880 you know, would you like to know more about this 347 00:20:15.119 --> 00:20:18.799 case and get involved in it? And I was like, no, 348 00:20:19.400 --> 00:20:22.920 you know, there are ten thousand people writing about this. 349 00:20:23.400 --> 00:20:26.240 Oh, we had no intention of working on that. 350 00:20:26.559 --> 00:20:29.400 I mean we lived in Denver, you know, yeah, and 351 00:20:29.519 --> 00:20:32.000 we were watching what everybody else is watching, which is 352 00:20:32.039 --> 00:20:34.400 a guy going down the freeway who looks like he's 353 00:20:34.440 --> 00:20:36.599 going to kill himself, and he looks very, very guilty, 354 00:20:37.279 --> 00:20:39.720 and you know, we just saw what ninety million other 355 00:20:39.839 --> 00:20:45.000 people saw. And then there was a little persuasion on 356 00:20:45.640 --> 00:20:48.920 this person's end and said, I will give you four 357 00:20:49.039 --> 00:20:53.000 pieces of information. This was inside the LA legal system 358 00:20:53.759 --> 00:20:56.599 that people don't know about, and if you would really 359 00:20:56.759 --> 00:21:00.079 like to know more, not about just this case, but 360 00:21:00.240 --> 00:21:03.160 maybe about how you function as a journalist, maybe about 361 00:21:03.160 --> 00:21:07.440 how your society functions, how your media functions, etc. Etc. 362 00:21:08.680 --> 00:21:11.680 You might have a very educational experience if you were 363 00:21:11.759 --> 00:21:14.920 willing to sort of get off the sidelines and get involved. 364 00:21:15.480 --> 00:21:18.240 And I'd never done anything like this before, so I 365 00:21:18.359 --> 00:21:22.079 was very hesitant. We were given four pieces of information 366 00:21:23.480 --> 00:21:28.319 and managed to convey them to the defense team. You know, 367 00:21:28.680 --> 00:21:32.200 six days after getting the information, I was sitting in 368 00:21:32.799 --> 00:21:37.119 the LA office of Robert Shapiro, who was Simpson's lead 369 00:21:37.200 --> 00:21:40.079 lawyer at the time before Johnny Cochran took over with 370 00:21:40.559 --> 00:21:44.440 the private the head private investigator for their team, and 371 00:21:44.720 --> 00:21:50.079 a couple of other lawyers, and again try to condense 372 00:21:50.160 --> 00:21:54.079 this as much as possible. But they said that the 373 00:21:54.160 --> 00:21:57.519 four pieces of information were all wrong, which I did 374 00:21:57.599 --> 00:22:00.359 not expect because I was there basically trying to give 375 00:22:00.400 --> 00:22:04.200 them information that would help their cause. As time unfolded, 376 00:22:04.599 --> 00:22:07.880 everything we were told turned out to be true. People 377 00:22:07.960 --> 00:22:12.119 can verify this through the trial. The most important piece 378 00:22:12.160 --> 00:22:15.400 of information by far was that was that the blood 379 00:22:15.839 --> 00:22:20.160 that was that was collected from the two crime scenes 380 00:22:23.400 --> 00:22:28.039 came out of the blood that was drawn from Simpson 381 00:22:28.160 --> 00:22:31.240 after he returned from Chicago on June thirteenth, the day 382 00:22:31.279 --> 00:22:36.480 after the crime complicated. But what it means is when 383 00:22:36.519 --> 00:22:39.440 a suspect is taken into custody, their blood is drawn, 384 00:22:39.480 --> 00:22:42.279 it is placed in a tube. The tube contains a 385 00:22:42.359 --> 00:22:46.000 chemical called EDTA. So if you were to test that 386 00:22:46.200 --> 00:22:49.880 blood later on and it had TA in it, which 387 00:22:49.960 --> 00:22:53.200 is a preservative, that would tell you that it did 388 00:22:53.319 --> 00:22:55.559 not come out of the defendant on the night of 389 00:22:55.640 --> 00:22:58.839 the crime, but it came out from this test tube. 390 00:22:59.319 --> 00:23:03.200 That means out any doubt that evidence was planted, and 391 00:23:04.759 --> 00:23:09.720 that throws the whole trial and everything else into confusion. 392 00:23:11.319 --> 00:23:14.960 Astonishingly enough, I wrote a book proposal about this in 393 00:23:15.079 --> 00:23:17.920 November of nineteen ninety four, which was three months before 394 00:23:18.000 --> 00:23:22.039 the trial again, and it was released on various major media, 395 00:23:22.119 --> 00:23:25.559 The LA Times, in New York Times, all of them neglected. 396 00:23:25.599 --> 00:23:30.839 It paid no attention to it, just followed the party line. Again, 397 00:23:31.160 --> 00:23:33.319 if you were to follow all of this closely. It 398 00:23:33.519 --> 00:23:35.839 came out during the trial in April and May of 399 00:23:36.000 --> 00:23:40.559 ninety five. When Simpson was easily acquitted of the charges 400 00:23:40.599 --> 00:23:43.079 in October of ninety five, some of the jurors talked 401 00:23:43.119 --> 00:23:47.039