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<v Speaker 1>Welcome to the nonprofits. Today, we're going to talk about

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<v Speaker 1>a very disturbing case that highlights the intersection of race

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<v Speaker 1>and reproductive health. AJ, what do you have for us today?

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<v Speaker 2>We are discussing a deeply troubling case that underscores the

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<v Speaker 2>complexities of reproductive rights and the criminalization of pregnancy outcomes.

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<v Speaker 2>And Mary Marriage is a twenty three year old black

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<v Speaker 2>woman from South Carolina. She finds herself facing murder charges

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<v Speaker 2>after the tragic loss of her pregnancy in March twenty

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<v Speaker 2>twenty three. Following a visit to the hospital for severe pain,

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<v Speaker 2>she gave birth to her baby in a badroom toilet

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<v Speaker 2>and was later accused of failing to provide aid to

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<v Speaker 2>her infant. This case raises critical questions about the implications

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<v Speaker 2>of restrictive reproductive laws and their disproportionate impact on marginalised communities.

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<v Speaker 2>As we explore her ordeal and the Brothers Society or indications,

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<v Speaker 2>we invite you to consider how these reflects on our

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<v Speaker 2>healthcare system and the urgent need for compassion and understanding

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<v Speaker 2>and discussions about pregnancy and loss. This story is from

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<v Speaker 2>The Atlanta Brackstar by Jill Jordan Cider on September twenty four,

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<v Speaker 2>twenty twenty four.

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<v Speaker 1>Thanks a J. Now I know that one of the

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<v Speaker 1>people involved in this said this had nothing to do

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<v Speaker 1>with the overturning of Roe v Wade, completely unrelated. These

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<v Speaker 1>are not the droids you see kind of mentality is

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<v Speaker 1>what it felt like to me, and not trying to

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<v Speaker 1>make light of this situation because what happened to this

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<v Speaker 1>woman is a nightmare. But what do you think, aj,

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<v Speaker 1>Do you think that this had something to do with

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<v Speaker 1>Roe v Wade being overturned? Are we seeing a new

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<v Speaker 1>focus in new ways or do you think that we're

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<v Speaker 1>just I'm just wrong in thinking that.

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<v Speaker 2>No, you're you're right. I mean, the biggest issue with

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<v Speaker 2>abortion bands is that it doesn't prevent abortions. Ali does

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<v Speaker 2>is cause more deaths, or it brings more charges to

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<v Speaker 2>desperate women who are full to seek medical care after

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<v Speaker 2>a miscarriagh thinking that they're going to be charged. It

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<v Speaker 2>leads to women finding dangerous and unsafe methods to deal

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<v Speaker 2>with unwanted pregnancies. So this is why rodbi Wade was

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<v Speaker 2>so monumental and important. It provided protections for women to

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<v Speaker 2>safely seek medical care related to pregnancy and other reproductive

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<v Speaker 2>care right. It gave a place for them to have

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<v Speaker 2>a safe, apportioned choices because it comes down to body autonomy.

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<v Speaker 2>It's a choice that women need to be able to make.

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<v Speaker 2>And in this case, while marsh still has her life,

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<v Speaker 2>it has been turned upside down. She was detained parmas

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<v Speaker 2>a month, she faced murder charges. It disrupted her vucation.

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<v Speaker 2>They put her through more trauma than she could have imagined.

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<v Speaker 2>All that, on top of the loss of her baby,

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<v Speaker 2>is unthinkable that in this day and age, we still

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<v Speaker 2>have to hear about these kind of stories, and it's

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<v Speaker 2>all thanks to the overturning of ov Wait.

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<v Speaker 1>I think you're probably right. I think that we're seeing

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<v Speaker 1>a new focus because we've opened the can of worms.

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<v Speaker 1>You know, here in Texas we got people wanting to

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<v Speaker 1>make it illegal to use Texas highways to go to

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<v Speaker 1>an abortion clinic. And all these absolutely, ultimately are unenforceable things.

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<v Speaker 1>But it also leads to situations where, or at least

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<v Speaker 1>we hope, are unenforceable. But it also leads to the

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<v Speaker 1>situations where we have people who like this one who

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<v Speaker 1>it seemed like when they interviewed her immediately they already

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<v Speaker 1>knew that she are suspected. They were told, whether true

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<v Speaker 1>or not, that she had been to a planned parenthood

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<v Speaker 1>months before, and I just found that incredibly invasive. You know,

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<v Speaker 1>it's like we're taking miscarriage and making every miscarriage in

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<v Speaker 1>the planet an act of a suspicious act.

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<v Speaker 3>What do you think, Carol, Yes, I found that particularly

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<v Speaker 3>troubling too. It's essentially almost trying to extend in practice,

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<v Speaker 3>if not in law, these prohibitions and bands on abortion,

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<v Speaker 3>to then include miscarriages as well, because where do you

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<v Speaker 3>draw the line between the two. You know, there's many

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<v Speaker 3>many pregnancies will naturally end in termination, whether it's spontaneous

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<v Speaker 3>just because the body, you know, it doesn't work out.

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<v Speaker 3>But now we're criminalizing people who are trying to carry

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<v Speaker 3>babies to term or carry a pregnancy to term. Sorry

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<v Speaker 3>I misspoke there. They wanted to have a baby, and

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<v Speaker 3>yet now even in those instances, if they don't produce

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<v Speaker 3>a child successfully, we're criminalizing that almost as if it's

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<v Speaker 3>the same as getting an abortion, except we're not making

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<v Speaker 3>any effort to contribute to things like I don't know,

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<v Speaker 3>providing comprehensive prenatal care at an affordable cost that will

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<v Speaker 3>help people have healthy pregnancies. I mean, I don't know,

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<v Speaker 3>shocking that that would, you know, matter, And that's exactly

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<v Speaker 3>the problem I think that we're encountering here too. This

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<v Speaker 3>was someone who it sounded like didn't have access to

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<v Speaker 3>a lot of things that could have contributed to having

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<v Speaker 3>a more successful pregnancy experience. We don't know what the

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<v Speaker 3>person encountered at planned parenthood or what was going on,

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<v Speaker 3>but we do know that it sounded like this person

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<v Speaker 3>was not terribly informed about what was going on. We

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<v Speaker 3>know that they tried to go to the hospital and

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<v Speaker 3>were not able to receive care. We know that they

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<v Speaker 3>did not have a lot of knowledge about the process.

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<v Speaker 3>And you know, what we're seeing is that now we're

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<v Speaker 3>criminalizing being I guess, less informed, having less access to care,

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<v Speaker 3>to money, to financial resources that would help you be

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<v Speaker 3>able to have better health outcomes. And this is where

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<v Speaker 3>it gets to the racial disparity that you mentioned. You know,

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<v Speaker 3>we people don't like to think that these kind of

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<v Speaker 3>disparities exist, but they do. Black women in particular, which

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<v Speaker 3>is what happened in this case, tends to be not

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<v Speaker 3>only criminalized in many things that they're doing, but also

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<v Speaker 3>treated unfairly and unequally in healthcare settings. And again we

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<v Speaker 3>see that in this case, we know, according to the CDC,

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<v Speaker 3>that black women are three times more likely to die

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<v Speaker 3>from a pregnancy related cause than white women, and this

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<v Speaker 3>is due to factors like disparities in the quality of

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<v Speaker 3>healthcare that they're receiving in underlying chronic conditions that may

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<v Speaker 3>be related to their experience of financial instability, structural racism,

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<v Speaker 3>and all of these other things, as well as implicit

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<v Speaker 3>biases that they encounter when they enter the healthcare setting

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<v Speaker 3>and the law enforcement setting when they're being criminalized for

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<v Speaker 3>these things. And so they're all related to one another.

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<v Speaker 3>And this criminalization of not just abortion, but now even

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<v Speaker 3>just the pregnancy outcomes themselves, whether they were intentional or not,

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<v Speaker 3>is simply exacerbating these disparities that have already existed all

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<v Speaker 3>this time. And it's hard to not see that as

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<v Speaker 3>an intentional outcome in some cases. I hate to be

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<v Speaker 3>pessimistic about people's motivations for promoting these abortion bands, but

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<v Speaker 3>it's hard to miss the disparities.

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<v Speaker 2>Glad you brought up the expectations of pregnancy outcomes, right,

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<v Speaker 2>because the more we cover these cases of women's reproductive

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<v Speaker 2>rights by the autonomy abortion and pregnancy laws. The more

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<v Speaker 2>I am convinced that the people enacting these rules, which

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<v Speaker 2>more often than not people that don't even have an

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<v Speaker 2>uters and shouldn't be managing them, have incredibly unrealistic expectations.

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<v Speaker 2>They expect every single woman to have a perfectly healthy

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<v Speaker 2>pregnancy with zero complications, to you know, become pregnant under

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<v Speaker 2>the perfect circumstances marriage while in love, you know, like

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<v Speaker 2>obviously marriage to a matter. Yeah, yeah, that's because what

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<v Speaker 2>else side, and then to give birth to a healthy

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<v Speaker 2>baby every single time. And in this there is no

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<v Speaker 2>room for anything else in their minds. These laws go

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<v Speaker 2>beyond abortion. They focus so much on saving the lives

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<v Speaker 2>of and unviable fetos that they completely ignore the fact

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<v Speaker 2>that there are suggesting laws that border on torture and

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<v Speaker 2>abuse of women. So it seemsact for women in America,

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<v Speaker 2>pregnancy has become a threat. And it's not even from

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<v Speaker 2>the pregnancy itself. It's from society, because you become a

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<v Speaker 2>criminal if anything goes wrong with your pregnancy.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I have to say that. I wish I could

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<v Speaker 1>say that you were just getting ahead of yourself and

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<v Speaker 1>making a big to do about nothing, because that's often

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<v Speaker 1>what we hear on these type of issues. Oh, you're

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<v Speaker 1>just blowing smoke, this is there's nothing here. But hopefully

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<v Speaker 1>most of us have learned by now with with Dobbs

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<v Speaker 1>that this isn't blowing smoke because these people are directly

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<v Speaker 1>signaling what they're wanting to do. We look at Paxton

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<v Speaker 1>here in Texas, who wants to get an idea of

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<v Speaker 1>make a database essentially off who's pregnant. There's a reason

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<v Speaker 1>why they want that information because, like you said, if

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<v Speaker 1>it's it's a healthy pregnancy, or it's an act of suspicion,

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<v Speaker 1>and that's that's very dangerous. But going back to something

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<v Speaker 1>care that you said, when yeah, if we want healthy,

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<v Speaker 1>if we want to have healthy pregnancies, let's start with

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<v Speaker 1>universal health care. Let's talk about you know, good prenatal

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<v Speaker 1>let's talk about and if we want talk about pro life,

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<v Speaker 1>we're going to talk about a whole lot of things

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<v Speaker 1>far beyond just pregnancy. But yeah, let's let's start there.

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<v Speaker 1>But it seems that these same people in these same

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<v Speaker 1>states time again don't want to address those issues. They

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<v Speaker 1>want to address this, Well, let's make sure that abortion stops,

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<v Speaker 1>And yes, I think it's insane to believe that anyone

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<v Speaker 1>who thinks that Roe v. Wades overturning did not impact

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<v Speaker 1>this needs needs to pay attention. You're just not paying attention.

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<v Speaker 1>But one thing Carol wanted to ask you about. You

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<v Speaker 1>mentioned some of these problems that I just discussed. What

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<v Speaker 1>are we seeing as far as in these states where

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<v Speaker 1>we're seeing the tightening of Roe v. Wade laws. What

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<v Speaker 1>are we seeing as far as that mortality rate? Are

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<v Speaker 1>we seeing that being impacted for both mothers and for

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<v Speaker 1>mortality rate of infants themselves. Are we seeing anything like that?

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<v Speaker 3>Yes, I believe we are, and I don't have the

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<v Speaker 3>exact statistics on this. I think it's going to take

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<v Speaker 3>a little bit of time to see a trend develop.

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<v Speaker 3>But this is not the first instance of a case

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<v Speaker 3>that we've heard of like this. If you read articles

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<v Speaker 3>on any major news source that's following this issue, you'll

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<v Speaker 3>see example after example of someone whose life was tragically

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<v Speaker 3>lost as a result of not being able to access

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<v Speaker 3>care that they needed, either because they were having a

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<v Speaker 3>miscarriage and they were not able to receive care because

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<v Speaker 3>the doctors were afraid that they would be in some

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<v Speaker 3>kind of legal trouble for intervening. You're seeing people who

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<v Speaker 3>are children, young girls that are now carrying pregnancies to term,

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<v Speaker 3>and now their life trajectory, their health is massively impacted.

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<v Speaker 3>We're seeing people who are surviving complications to pregnancies, maybe

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<v Speaker 3>in some cases surviving in other cases not that are

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<v Speaker 3>due to chronic health conditions that they knew in advance

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<v Speaker 3>were going to be incompatible with a healthy, successful pregnancy,

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<v Speaker 3>and yet they were stuck putting their bodies through that

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<v Speaker 3>and putting their lives at risk for no good reason. So, yes,

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<v Speaker 3>we've seen this happen, and we've seen the results begin

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<v Speaker 3>to appear before our eyes. I know recently there was

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<v Speaker 3>a certain political candidate made some kind of statements such as, oh,

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<v Speaker 3>you know, where are these people that are these women

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<v Speaker 3>that are supposedly, you know, showing up to emergency rooms

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<v Speaker 3>and bleeding out in the parking lot. Well, sure enough,

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<v Speaker 3>we can point to several examples of that happening recently

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<v Speaker 3>where someone has not been able to access the care

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<v Speaker 3>that they needed while they were having a miscarriage or

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<v Speaker 3>some sort of pregnancy related life threatening issue. This is

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<v Speaker 3>a real thing that's happening to people, regardless of whether

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<v Speaker 3>some want to pay attention to it or not or

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<v Speaker 3>say oh, well these are rare, Well, okay, those are

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<v Speaker 3>people that that's happening to. Those count and we don't

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<v Speaker 3>need to be having any of those cases occur, and

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<v Speaker 3>yet here we are.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I'd love to say that there's no secret that

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<v Speaker 2>you know, women of color have a much had a

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<v Speaker 2>rate of maternal mortality or death related to pregnancy and childhood,

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<v Speaker 2>and that clearly studies have shown that black women are

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<v Speaker 2>more likely to experience life threatening conditions like you say,

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<v Speaker 2>briefs in conditions, but even preclamcy or powder memorrhation, blood cloths.

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<v Speaker 2>But there was also complications with the babies, as you men,

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<v Speaker 2>as you asked that question, and I think that I

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<v Speaker 2>did hear some statistics on that. There was a study

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<v Speaker 2>It wasn't national, but it was a study in California

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<v Speaker 2>that showed that even when a black mother was in

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<v Speaker 2>a highre financial position, their death rates were incredibly highreds

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<v Speaker 2>out of one hundred thousand birds, one one hundred and

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<v Speaker 2>seventy three of the baby is born to the richest

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<v Speaker 2>white mothers died before the first birthday. Whereas four hundred

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<v Speaker 2>and thirty seven babies born to the richest black mothers died,

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<v Speaker 2>So that's that number is just incredibly higher. And then

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<v Speaker 2>black babies have the highest mortality rate in all of America.

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<v Speaker 2>And this is just for black women only. It doesn't

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<v Speaker 2>include any other people of color, not Hispanic or anything

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<v Speaker 2>like that. And so there is there seems to be

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<v Speaker 2>a huge bias against black women specifically. And this makes

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<v Speaker 2>me wonder also if in this case this could have

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<v Speaker 2>played a role on why marsh was sent home from

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<v Speaker 2>the hospital in the first place after going in for pain.

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<v Speaker 2>Could this entire or they old have been prevented if

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<v Speaker 2>she had been given better medical care that wasn't biased

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<v Speaker 2>against her race.

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<v Speaker 1>I think that when I was reading the article, I

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<v Speaker 1>want to say they use the term approximate cause for

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<v Speaker 1>her being labeled as the cause of this death. And

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<v Speaker 1>I are going to get in the debate over childhood

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<v Speaker 1>on this and the reason am is the mother retained

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<v Speaker 1>the ashes. So for their sake, if they want to

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<v Speaker 1>call them a child, it's a child for the sake

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<v Speaker 1>of a discussion and because that's what it meant to them.

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<v Speaker 1>But when it comes down to South Carolina and their

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<v Speaker 1>need to assert a blame somewhere. There's definitely blame. I mean,

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<v Speaker 1>as you said, Aja, coming home, this woman coming home

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<v Speaker 1>from the hospital, she was completely dismissed. And I can't

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<v Speaker 1>help but wonder if she would have been a white woman,

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<v Speaker 1>would she have gotten the same dismissal. The statistics say maybe,

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<v Speaker 1>maybe not because we see them too. But the bottom

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<v Speaker 1>line is it's hard to ignore that a black woman's

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<v Speaker 1>two point five times more likely to die from pregnancy

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<v Speaker 1>and childbirth, and that with that number rising, So yes,

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<v Speaker 1>there's plenty to blame, blame to lay around. And you know,

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<v Speaker 1>as I mentioned, I believe carod to you before this

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<v Speaker 1>show started. You know, driving while black is a thing,

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<v Speaker 1>and it's bad enough right now, it seems we need

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<v Speaker 1>to deal with pregnant while black too, because this isn't

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<v Speaker 1>something that's going to go away. But I have to

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<v Speaker 1>wonder if this isn't something that is specific to a

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<v Speaker 1>general dismissal women, because that's a lot of what this

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<v Speaker 1>tends to be is it just seems to be putting

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<v Speaker 1>them in a second class place. What do you think, Kara, Oh, one.

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<v Speaker 3>Hundred percent agree. I know we've talked on this show

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<v Speaker 3>previously about all of the ways that going to a

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<v Speaker 3>hospital or a doctor while being a woman is a

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<v Speaker 3>dangerous endeavor or one in which you're more likely to

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<v Speaker 3>be ignored or dismissed or labeled as having a mental

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<v Speaker 3>health issue for thinking that you have a physical health issue,

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<v Speaker 3>and all of these kinds of things, and then combined

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<v Speaker 3>with being a woman and also a woman who is black,

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<v Speaker 3>now we've got two different intersecting ways in which you're

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<v Speaker 3>going to be treated in a different way than other

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<v Speaker 3>people who are coming into this setting. And that is

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<v Speaker 3>reflected in the outcomes. It's reflected in the maternal health

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<v Speaker 3>of black women, it's reflected in the health outcomes of

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<v Speaker 3>women in general going into a medical facility, their outcomes

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<v Speaker 3>in terms of how long it takes them to get

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<v Speaker 3>diagnosed with things, how much research has been devoted to

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<v Speaker 3>the types of issues that women have specifically, all of

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<v Speaker 3>these issues are combining, and when you look at this

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<v Speaker 3>in a larger context with many of the other laws

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<v Speaker 3>that we have on the books, or have in the

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<v Speaker 3>past had on the books that disproportionately affect certain groups

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<v Speaker 3>of people, it's hard to not see the pattern when

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<v Speaker 3>you see these abortion laws happening in states that also

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<v Speaker 3>have a history of having laws that are going to

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<v Speaker 3>restrict people from voting, and those laws tend to restrict

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<v Speaker 3>certain demographics from being able to vote, the same states

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<v Speaker 3>that have had certain ordinances and laws on the books

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<v Speaker 3>that have caused disproportionate disadvantages to accrue to people of

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<v Speaker 3>certain socioeconomic and racial categories in terms of their access

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<v Speaker 3>to even be near a hospital, or have transportation to

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<v Speaker 3>a hospital, or access to any other kind of thing

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<v Speaker 3>that people might need. These are just piling one on

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<v Speaker 3>top of the other and compounding these problems, and it's

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<v Speaker 3>having the same effect. Again, I don't think it's a

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<v Speaker 3>surprising effect. I think anyone who is paying attention knew

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<v Speaker 3>this would be the outcome of this, and here we

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<v Speaker 3>are seeing it. And I don't think that it was

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<v Speaker 3>an unintended outcome. Maybe I'm a pessimist, but that's what

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<v Speaker 3>I see.

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<v Speaker 2>Aj Anything you had ad You have mentioned this before, Infidel,

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<v Speaker 2>but I think it, Parson be Bitn. If men were

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<v Speaker 2>able to get pregnant, we will be having a completely

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<v Speaker 2>different conversation.

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<v Speaker 1>I don't disagree, and I've said that if men got

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<v Speaker 1>pregnant and I use that term directly, but I would

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<v Speaker 1>say that the birth control pill would have been invented

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<v Speaker 1>before the wheel, you know, that'd have been the first thing.

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<v Speaker 1>And we'd have a lottery every year, and whoever lost

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<v Speaker 1>would have the kid that year. So we'd have about

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<v Speaker 1>one hundred people and just barely holding on to survival.

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<v Speaker 1>So I completely agree what truth is is that we'd have,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, make abortion clinics are around, because it just

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<v Speaker 1>wouldn't be this way. But I will say that I

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<v Speaker 1>do agree. I'm a little pessimistic, like you, Kara. I

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<v Speaker 1>think this is a deliberate I don't think this is accidental.

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<v Speaker 1>I think this has opened a lot of people's eyes

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<v Speaker 1>because they used to say, oh, this is just one

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<v Speaker 1>of many, and this doesn't really happen. This is just

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<v Speaker 1>excuses you use for what could happen if we made

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<v Speaker 1>abortion illegal. Well now we're seeing those and they're very

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<v Speaker 1>real consequences, and they count and they matter because as

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<v Speaker 1>rare or not, they're people behind them.