WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.160 --> 00:00:02.319 So just to heads up, as with Part one, we're 2 00:00:02.319 --> 00:00:05.879 discussing dairy and we also make acknowledgments of animal rights concerns, 3 00:00:05.960 --> 00:00:08.439 and this week we discuss a bunch of vegan options 4 00:00:08.480 --> 00:00:11.640 in more depth to and this wonderful Cheese Experts focus 5 00:00:11.720 --> 00:00:15.519 isn't dairy farming as an industry, but rather the process 6 00:00:15.560 --> 00:00:18.239 of cheesemaking. And also in the future we have a 7 00:00:18.440 --> 00:00:22.000 plant based diet episode coming up, so enjoy. Oh hey, 8 00:00:22.079 --> 00:00:25.280 it's once again the monster who returns emails at four 9 00:00:25.320 --> 00:00:28.679 pm on a Friday. Sorry everyone, still ali ward, This 10 00:00:28.760 --> 00:00:30.800 is cheese. This is part two. So if you have 11 00:00:30.839 --> 00:00:34.039 come here first, you skip part one. I just simply 12 00:00:34.039 --> 00:00:36.880 cannot abide because you will get to know our esteemed 13 00:00:37.119 --> 00:00:40.479 guest and you will know cheese from a foundational level. 14 00:00:40.560 --> 00:00:43.359 So start there. Start a Part one. That's the beginning, 15 00:00:43.399 --> 00:00:45.479 that's how things go. Now in a moment, we're going 16 00:00:45.560 --> 00:00:48.079 to get to Part two, which is just wall to 17 00:00:48.119 --> 00:00:52.920 wall listener questions and weirder and creepier, tastier, gorgeous facts 18 00:00:52.960 --> 00:00:56.960 about things like cows on boats and vegan options for cheese. 19 00:00:57.320 --> 00:01:00.600 The most violent way to enjoy cheese, The Great Grilled 20 00:01:00.679 --> 00:01:03.640 Cheese sandwich debate, how to craft some curds at home. 21 00:01:04.079 --> 00:01:08.359 We talk about cheese pricing, squeakycurds, the Moon's composition, the 22 00:01:08.439 --> 00:01:13.120 ultimate charcuterie board. We also talk holes, crystals, maggots, oh my. 23 00:01:13.519 --> 00:01:15.560 But first, thank you to pay Trends via Patreon dot 24 00:01:15.560 --> 00:01:18.200 com slash Ologies, who for a dollar a month can 25 00:01:18.200 --> 00:01:20.760 submit questions ahead of time for theologists. And thanks to 26 00:01:20.760 --> 00:01:22.840 everyone who's out there wearing ologies merch out in the 27 00:01:22.840 --> 00:01:24.799 wild so you can find each other. You can get 28 00:01:24.799 --> 00:01:28.200 it at ologiesmarch dot com for no dollars. Thank you 29 00:01:28.480 --> 00:01:31.200 for leaving us reviews. I read all of them, and 30 00:01:31.239 --> 00:01:34.120 then as proof I highlight a fresh one, such as 31 00:01:34.159 --> 00:01:37.040 this one this week from ekwo four, who wrote that 32 00:01:37.079 --> 00:01:40.400 this podcast is smart, hilarious, weirdly comforting, and one hundred 33 00:01:40.400 --> 00:01:44.159 percent responsible for their new obsession with rattlesnakes, because like, 34 00:01:44.239 --> 00:01:46.079 what do you mean there's a live stream of a 35 00:01:46.159 --> 00:01:49.599 rattlesnake ten ten out of ten ekw zero zero four, 36 00:01:49.879 --> 00:01:52.799 thanks for that from me and from the Rattlesnakes. Enjoy 37 00:01:52.799 --> 00:01:55.560 the Rattlesnakes episode if you haven't already, It's so good, 38 00:01:55.760 --> 00:01:57.480 okay if you're new around here. Also and you need 39 00:01:57.519 --> 00:02:01.040 any kids saye versions of ologies, we have them for free. 40 00:02:01.159 --> 00:02:03.519 They're in their very own feed Wherever we get podcasts 41 00:02:03.519 --> 00:02:06.680 are called smologies SMO l O g i e S. 42 00:02:07.120 --> 00:02:09.520 They're also linked in the show notes or just honestly 43 00:02:09.560 --> 00:02:12.240 search any podcast player and you can subscribe there for 44 00:02:12.319 --> 00:02:15.719 classroom safe and g rated cuts. Also thanks to sponsors 45 00:02:15.759 --> 00:02:17.319 of the show for making it possible for us to 46 00:02:17.360 --> 00:02:20.719 donate to a cause of the ologists choosing every episode 47 00:02:21.400 --> 00:02:21.960 get value. 48 00:02:22.000 --> 00:02:24.319 You can't argue with at Tesco with their amazing club 49 00:02:24.360 --> 00:02:27.360 card prices. Serve up something special with our finest meal 50 00:02:27.400 --> 00:02:30.080 deal for two starring one main, two sides and dessert 51 00:02:30.080 --> 00:02:32.919 for only sixteen EU. Row like succulent board, be approved 52 00:02:32.960 --> 00:02:35.560 Virus shined a strip loin steaks with peppercorn butter or 53 00:02:35.599 --> 00:02:39.400 delicious Virus Chicken Parmesana served with creamy potato gretam and 54 00:02:39.479 --> 00:02:43.000 our mix of rainbow root vegetables. And enjoy Goozillionaire or 55 00:02:43.039 --> 00:02:46.439 Soldier Caramel cheesecake. Can't argue with that shop in store 56 00:02:46.560 --> 00:02:47.319 or online. 57 00:02:47.400 --> 00:02:47.840 Tesco. 58 00:02:48.120 --> 00:02:51.159 Every Little helps available in most doors, prices very in express. 59 00:02:51.400 --> 00:02:54.120 You're on the bus an hour from home in bumper 60 00:02:54.159 --> 00:02:57.400 to bumper traffic creeping forward a few inches at a time. 61 00:02:58.080 --> 00:03:03.319 Someone's kids are screaming, so suddenly your back is too. Luckily, 62 00:03:03.439 --> 00:03:07.120 Panadal extra film coated tablets are boosted by caffeine and 63 00:03:07.199 --> 00:03:09.479 they get to work in as little as ten minutes 64 00:03:09.840 --> 00:03:13.639 for powerful relief. That's more than just paracetamol. That's one 65 00:03:13.680 --> 00:03:17.639 for panadal speed based on absorption data contains paracetamol. 66 00:03:17.719 --> 00:03:19.120 Always read the label or leaflet. 67 00:03:22.000 --> 00:03:27.400 Okay, Onto Phromology Part two. Illegal Cheeses, The pasteurization conundrum. 68 00:03:27.520 --> 00:03:31.759 How to properly store cheese orange versus white cheddar WHDe 69 00:03:31.879 --> 00:03:35.520 cheese changes your brain chemistry and so much more. And 70 00:03:35.599 --> 00:03:38.719 heads up when you hear this guest say, great question. 71 00:03:39.280 --> 00:03:42.240 Just feel free to do a tiny imperceptible dance where 72 00:03:42.280 --> 00:03:44.039 you can take a sip of whatever beverage you've got 73 00:03:44.039 --> 00:03:45.800 going on Celebrated. 74 00:03:45.960 --> 00:03:46.800 There are a lot of. 75 00:03:46.759 --> 00:03:50.400 Really stellar answers to great questions with this professional food educator, 76 00:03:50.800 --> 00:04:14.840 certified cheese professional, and phromologists Kira Is James. Can I 77 00:04:14.879 --> 00:04:17.519 do a lightning round of listener questions? 78 00:04:17.839 --> 00:04:18.680 Yeah, let's do it. 79 00:04:18.959 --> 00:04:22.680 The most questions we've ever gotten on any episode. 80 00:04:23.000 --> 00:04:25.079 That's awesome. People love cheese. 81 00:04:25.319 --> 00:04:27.800 They love cheese, and they have questions. 82 00:04:28.160 --> 00:04:29.000 My name is Ronnie. 83 00:04:29.160 --> 00:04:31.959 I live in LA and I was wondering what the 84 00:04:32.000 --> 00:04:34.680 deal is with the cheese that has the bugs in it. 85 00:04:35.759 --> 00:04:38.199 So if you could let me know why the cheese 86 00:04:38.240 --> 00:04:40.399 has bugs in it, that would be really great. 87 00:04:40.959 --> 00:04:44.480 Thank you, Ronnie, thank you. You're not alone because her 88 00:04:44.560 --> 00:04:48.319 ladyship gen Doctor Lina Carpenter TV thirty three, Dory Baggat's husband, 89 00:04:48.319 --> 00:04:52.240 Seth dig Haley Kirby, Ingve Sylvia Treverio, Spencer Aldridge, and 90 00:04:52.399 --> 00:04:56.160 Mouse Paxton, who says, I'll try most things, but that's 91 00:04:56.360 --> 00:04:58.759 just too much for me. So that's a cheese. Even 92 00:04:58.800 --> 00:05:02.120 a mouse won't fuck with what is happening? And Ronnie 93 00:05:02.120 --> 00:05:06.160 not Ronnie pardon? So Ronnie and other folks want to 94 00:05:06.199 --> 00:05:09.040 know what's with the mite cheese? What's with the maggot cheese? 95 00:05:09.079 --> 00:05:09.600 What's happening? 96 00:05:10.000 --> 00:05:13.000 Yes, so maggot cheese is called katsu martsu. 97 00:05:13.199 --> 00:05:16.519 It means putrid cheese, and it's illegal from Sardinia. 98 00:05:17.120 --> 00:05:20.399 And what they're basically doing, it's not sold anywhere they 99 00:05:20.439 --> 00:05:22.720 make the cheese, but it's no longer allowed to be sold, 100 00:05:22.759 --> 00:05:25.680 but they're making the cheese the same way traditionally, and 101 00:05:25.720 --> 00:05:27.519 what they do is they leave the cheese out, so 102 00:05:27.519 --> 00:05:29.600 they go through the make process, they go through the 103 00:05:29.600 --> 00:05:32.480 aging process, and then the wheel of cheese is sit 104 00:05:32.600 --> 00:05:36.680 out on a counter and they basically allow a certain 105 00:05:36.680 --> 00:05:40.839 breed of flies to lay their eggs on the cheese 106 00:05:41.399 --> 00:05:46.199 and then the larvae eat away at the cheese and 107 00:05:46.360 --> 00:05:52.759 excrete afterwards. Oh and so that sort of process creates 108 00:05:52.759 --> 00:05:57.399 a certain texture and flavor profile that's very very specific 109 00:05:58.600 --> 00:06:02.000 and very very unique, but very well known also. So yes, 110 00:06:02.079 --> 00:06:04.439 I've never had it, but I've learned a lot about 111 00:06:04.480 --> 00:06:06.920 it just because people do often ask about it. So 112 00:06:07.279 --> 00:06:10.199 great question. Yeah, but it's the larvae that so it's 113 00:06:10.240 --> 00:06:14.560 not necessarily maggots, but it's the larvae that are consuming 114 00:06:14.600 --> 00:06:17.639 the cheese and creating the super supple texture. 115 00:06:18.519 --> 00:06:21.720 Does that leave holes in the cheese like little burrows? 116 00:06:22.079 --> 00:06:24.600 Yeah, there's holes in the next sterior of the cheese because 117 00:06:24.639 --> 00:06:27.600 they're burring into the paste of the cheese. So there 118 00:06:27.600 --> 00:06:29.319 are definitely holes on the outside. 119 00:06:29.399 --> 00:06:29.600 Yeah. 120 00:06:29.839 --> 00:06:32.160 So yes, this is a sheep's cheese. It's a peccerino, 121 00:06:32.279 --> 00:06:35.160 if you remember from part one, and it's infested with 122 00:06:35.519 --> 00:06:39.279 Piophilia case I or the cheese skipper also known as 123 00:06:39.279 --> 00:06:41.959 a ham skipper, and I'm gonna let you guess why. 124 00:06:41.959 --> 00:06:44.720 They also call it a ham skipper, so it likes ham. 125 00:06:45.199 --> 00:06:49.240 And some folks they smear this cheese while it's still wriggling, 126 00:06:49.480 --> 00:06:52.399 right on a piece of bread, and then the party 127 00:06:52.560 --> 00:06:56.040 just rages on down the hatch. And apparently, if the 128 00:06:56.040 --> 00:06:59.160 maggots are not still alive, it's not safe to eat. 129 00:06:59.519 --> 00:07:03.319 If the maggets are alive, it's also not safe to eat. 130 00:07:03.879 --> 00:07:06.040 But that's not the point. And I started with this 131 00:07:06.319 --> 00:07:10.079 cursory wiki search, but what I found on Wikipedia was 132 00:07:10.120 --> 00:07:12.839 so simple and so delicious, I'd like to serve you 133 00:07:12.959 --> 00:07:17.040 up some excerpts verbatim, okay quote. Some who eat the 134 00:07:17.120 --> 00:07:20.040 cheese prefer not to ingest the maggots. Those who do 135 00:07:20.120 --> 00:07:22.040 not wish to eat them place the cheese in a 136 00:07:22.079 --> 00:07:26.439 sealed paper bag. The maggots starved for oxygen, writhe, and 137 00:07:26.560 --> 00:07:29.720 jump in the bag, creating a pitter petter sound. When 138 00:07:29.759 --> 00:07:33.079 the sounds subside, the maggots are dead and the cheese 139 00:07:33.160 --> 00:07:37.160 can be eaten. Wikipedia continues. Because the larvae in the 140 00:07:37.240 --> 00:07:41.240 cheese can launch themselves distances of up to fifteen centimeters 141 00:07:41.360 --> 00:07:45.199 or six inches. When disturbed, diners hold their hands above 142 00:07:45.240 --> 00:07:49.040 the sandwich to prevent the maggots from leaping now. Additionally, 143 00:07:49.480 --> 00:07:52.959 the Guinness Book of World Records, which named Katzmartu as 144 00:07:53.120 --> 00:07:56.040 the most dangerous cheese in the world, notes that if 145 00:07:56.040 --> 00:07:59.759 you eat the maggots and they survive your teeth and 146 00:07:59.800 --> 00:08:03.279 your stomach, you could be rewarded with things like intestine 147 00:08:03.279 --> 00:08:07.000 allegiance and new wormy roommates. Down there, you can also 148 00:08:07.120 --> 00:08:12.120 enjoy vomiting, itchy butt and bloody diarrhea. Is it worth it? Apparently? 149 00:08:12.560 --> 00:08:18.240 It tastes intense, which is no surprise, also grassy, it's 150 00:08:18.279 --> 00:08:22.439 got a little spicy sting, and an aftertaste that I'm 151 00:08:22.519 --> 00:08:25.600 reading can last until the next day if you're lucky. 152 00:08:25.839 --> 00:08:27.920 So that's a lot of bang for the buck. Now. 153 00:08:27.959 --> 00:08:31.120 In a twenty twenty one article in The Outline titled 154 00:08:31.319 --> 00:08:35.399 the Secret Resistance behind the World's most Dangerous Cheese, this 155 00:08:35.519 --> 00:08:37.519 article notes that if you go to Sardinia and you 156 00:08:37.600 --> 00:08:41.360 ask about this cheese, people will likely be annoyed because 157 00:08:41.360 --> 00:08:43.679 one is illegal, even though people still make and eat 158 00:08:43.679 --> 00:08:45.759 it there, and two because tourists ask about it all 159 00:08:45.799 --> 00:08:48.919 the time, probably like wanting to make a TikTok about it. Well, 160 00:08:49.000 --> 00:08:54.000 several people want to know. Jacob Stock, Matthew Walker, Storm Wickerbitch, 161 00:08:54.519 --> 00:08:58.960 Bonnie m Brutherbird, and Hendrix want to know, in Jacob's words, 162 00:08:59.279 --> 00:09:02.200 how do Swiss tree get its holes? Like, girl, is 163 00:09:02.240 --> 00:09:02.759 it breathing? 164 00:09:04.279 --> 00:09:10.000 Great question. They're actually called eyes and they're basically traps 165 00:09:10.000 --> 00:09:14.039 of gas. So during the fermentation process when the lactose 166 00:09:14.120 --> 00:09:17.360 is being turned into lactic acid in certain types of cheeses, 167 00:09:18.000 --> 00:09:21.600 there will be gas bubbles that are formed. They pop 168 00:09:21.679 --> 00:09:24.679 inside the cheese and that's what creates the holes inside 169 00:09:24.720 --> 00:09:27.360 the cheese. So it's actually the process of making cheese. 170 00:09:27.799 --> 00:09:30.159 Emmon Taller is one of the most famous ones. What 171 00:09:30.360 --> 00:09:33.799 we in America called Swiss cheese often is described as 172 00:09:33.840 --> 00:09:36.320 having holes in it. But that's the process of it, 173 00:09:36.360 --> 00:09:39.279 and it does create a certain flavor profile as well. 174 00:09:39.519 --> 00:09:41.840 It's not just random, it's very intentional. 175 00:09:42.240 --> 00:09:45.480 Okay, mntall is a proper way to address it. 176 00:09:45.519 --> 00:09:45.799 Though. 177 00:09:46.320 --> 00:09:50.279 Emmon Taller is one type of cheese it's becoming extinct 178 00:09:50.320 --> 00:09:52.039 in some ways, or trying to save the M and 179 00:09:52.080 --> 00:09:56.000 taller from going extinct. So it's definitely one that I 180 00:09:56.039 --> 00:09:58.559 call out very often. But It's just it's one that 181 00:09:58.720 --> 00:09:59.919 sort of when you see an image of a pe 182 00:10:00.200 --> 00:10:02.080 of cheese with holes in it, that's what it looks 183 00:10:02.120 --> 00:10:02.480 like to me. 184 00:10:03.120 --> 00:10:06.159 So there are many, many types of Swiss cheeses, but 185 00:10:06.200 --> 00:10:09.200 the holy, holy kind that you're imagining is yes, called 186 00:10:09.240 --> 00:10:13.639 an emmentaler. And according to the nineteen seventeen paper on 187 00:10:13.759 --> 00:10:17.480 the formation of eyes in emmental Cheese, there are three 188 00:10:17.519 --> 00:10:20.559 types of holes in this kind of Swiss cheese. The 189 00:10:20.639 --> 00:10:24.919 smallest are called Nisler holes, the eyes which are medium sized, 190 00:10:24.960 --> 00:10:28.120 and then there's the largest ones, called blow holes. And 191 00:10:28.519 --> 00:10:32.440 this nineteen seventeen paper stated very confidently that a rapid 192 00:10:32.480 --> 00:10:36.440 gas production makes the Nisler holes, and slower gas production 193 00:10:36.759 --> 00:10:40.159 must be responsible for the larger holes. Since the nineteen 194 00:10:40.200 --> 00:10:42.840 seventeen paper, scientists have known that the holes are caused 195 00:10:42.840 --> 00:10:47.360 by trapped gases. However, However, a couple decades ago, the 196 00:10:47.360 --> 00:10:51.320 holes started disappearing. What is this? Is this climate change? 197 00:10:51.720 --> 00:10:55.320 Is this unhappy cows? Did we go down the wrong 198 00:10:55.480 --> 00:10:59.159 path in a simulation? Is there some dark magic wielded 199 00:10:59.200 --> 00:11:02.840 by a lacked, intolerant warlock? What happened to the holes? Well, 200 00:11:02.879 --> 00:11:06.159 in twenty fifteen, some fresh knowledge bubbled of the surface 201 00:11:06.200 --> 00:11:09.320 in a paper titled Mechanism and Control of the Eye 202 00:11:09.320 --> 00:11:12.440 Formation in Cheese, and that reminded us that, yes, the 203 00:11:12.440 --> 00:11:15.399 ie formation in Swiss type cheese is mainly the result 204 00:11:15.480 --> 00:11:18.559 of acid fermentation, which creates a few substances including CO 205 00:11:18.759 --> 00:11:24.000 two gas bubbles. Now, usually formologists do these cheese ie 206 00:11:24.039 --> 00:11:27.480 exams by quote listening to the type of sound made 207 00:11:27.519 --> 00:11:30.519 while tapping with a special hammer on the surface of 208 00:11:30.559 --> 00:11:34.759 the cheese loaf. This study, however, this twenty fifteen study 209 00:11:35.120 --> 00:11:39.159 used ultrasounds and other medical imaging equipment to find out 210 00:11:39.200 --> 00:11:42.440 what causes the quantity and the size of the bubbles, 211 00:11:42.840 --> 00:11:47.240 and they found out its trace amounts of hay in 212 00:11:47.279 --> 00:11:51.039 the milk. So the eyes in m Intoller type cheeses 213 00:11:51.399 --> 00:11:54.480 were disappearing because the milk was being collected through more 214 00:11:54.519 --> 00:11:58.080 modern means, i e. Not someone in a sun dress 215 00:11:58.159 --> 00:12:01.399 in braids with an open pail, which would get specks 216 00:12:01.440 --> 00:12:04.679 of hay kind of dancing amid the way. So the 217 00:12:04.720 --> 00:12:08.559 paper concludes that it's likely that trace amounts of hay 218 00:12:08.679 --> 00:12:13.120 dust entering in raw milk have always been the natural 219 00:12:13.159 --> 00:12:16.919 source of the eye nuclei which trigger the start of 220 00:12:17.039 --> 00:12:20.600 eye formation in the cheese, and just recently this just 221 00:12:20.799 --> 00:12:24.200 was decided. There was all this fierce debate from traditionalists 222 00:12:24.200 --> 00:12:28.159 and industrialists, and Switzerland has decided to allow the addition 223 00:12:28.320 --> 00:12:31.960 of hay flour powder to its cheeses. That way they 224 00:12:32.000 --> 00:12:36.120 can keep harvesting the milk with modern equipment, but also 225 00:12:36.519 --> 00:12:38.639 add a little hay dust in there to get the 226 00:12:38.720 --> 00:12:41.759 bubbles back. And it's also worth noting that the holes 227 00:12:41.840 --> 00:12:44.320 in this type of cheese for a long time were 228 00:12:44.399 --> 00:12:47.879 considered bad and unsightly. They were a bug and not 229 00:12:47.960 --> 00:12:51.720 a feature. But over the centuries, this holy look of 230 00:12:51.879 --> 00:12:57.919 ementol cheese became representative of all cheese itself. So remember 231 00:12:58.240 --> 00:13:03.120 when you see an emintolerches just serving with those stunning eyes, 232 00:13:03.279 --> 00:13:07.039 Remember that that was once seed is bad and now 233 00:13:07.399 --> 00:13:11.240 it's iconic. What's the emoji for cheese? Yeah, bitch the 234 00:13:11.279 --> 00:13:14.240 emin taller? Okay, dead ass. Side note, we have a 235 00:13:14.240 --> 00:13:17.000 two part episode all about how they decide on emochiese 236 00:13:17.320 --> 00:13:20.960 and it's called Curiology. And July seventeenth is World Emoji 237 00:13:21.000 --> 00:13:24.480 Day because the little calendar emoji says July seventeenth. We'll 238 00:13:24.519 --> 00:13:26.159 link that in the show notes. But let's take a 239 00:13:26.240 --> 00:13:30.679 quick detour from dusty buckets to cheese that needs no cows. 240 00:13:31.159 --> 00:13:34.600 Dozens and dozens if you wanted to know so many 241 00:13:34.639 --> 00:13:36.600 people I don't even know if I can list all 242 00:13:36.600 --> 00:13:40.279 their names. Asked about vegan cheese Jerry Brown, first time 243 00:13:40.320 --> 00:13:43.080 question asker. I wanted to know does nut cheese use 244 00:13:43.120 --> 00:13:46.960 the same bacteria as dairy cheese and is that technically cheese? 245 00:13:47.279 --> 00:13:49.960 Lauren Cooper, This is going to be a divisive question. 246 00:13:50.000 --> 00:13:52.720 I want to know why does vegan cheese suck so much? 247 00:13:53.279 --> 00:13:57.960 Other people think it's it's good. I'm myself a diet 248 00:13:58.039 --> 00:14:01.440 cheese I think that melts great. If you've got a 249 00:14:01.519 --> 00:14:03.960 vegan pizza with diet cheese, I'm all for it. 250 00:14:04.120 --> 00:14:06.399 So I've lots of thoughts on vegan cheese. It's tataga 251 00:14:06.519 --> 00:14:09.639 that we talk about in the industry in some way, 252 00:14:09.679 --> 00:14:14.320 shape or form a lot. But to me, vegan cheese 253 00:14:14.399 --> 00:14:18.159 is not cheese. Okay, I think it's a vegan product. 254 00:14:18.519 --> 00:14:21.279 I think vegan cheese product might be a better way 255 00:14:21.320 --> 00:14:24.679 to name it, but it's not the same as cheese. 256 00:14:25.000 --> 00:14:29.080 There are vegan cheeses that use the same microorganisms to 257 00:14:29.279 --> 00:14:32.600 create the final product. There are vegan cheeses that go 258 00:14:32.679 --> 00:14:36.159 through fermentation, well not fermentation exactly, but where you can 259 00:14:36.200 --> 00:14:38.879 actually have a rind on the cheese where you have 260 00:14:38.960 --> 00:14:41.799 certain flair profiles in the cheese. Like they have blue 261 00:14:41.840 --> 00:14:45.600 vegan cheese, they have cheddar vegan cheeses. They're adding certain 262 00:14:45.639 --> 00:14:48.600 things to those products that are the same exact ingredients 263 00:14:48.600 --> 00:14:51.759 that you'd add to cheese. So in that respect, they're 264 00:14:51.840 --> 00:14:55.000 very similar. But there's no milk, and so for me, 265 00:14:55.240 --> 00:15:01.080 without having dairy milk included, it's not a fermented milk products, 266 00:15:01.080 --> 00:15:02.480 so therefore it's not cheese. 267 00:15:02.600 --> 00:15:03.360 I'm so sorry. 268 00:15:03.480 --> 00:15:06.440 I'm so sorry. I think that it's delicious. I eat 269 00:15:06.720 --> 00:15:10.120 vegetarian often, and I've had many of the vegan cheeses 270 00:15:10.159 --> 00:15:11.639 on the market, and there are a few that I 271 00:15:11.679 --> 00:15:15.840 actually would eat again. So I definitely have no shade 272 00:15:16.320 --> 00:15:19.480 to them. To me, they're not considered cheese. I would 273 00:15:19.480 --> 00:15:22.320 say that they're their own separate category and should be 274 00:15:22.320 --> 00:15:23.159 treated as such. 275 00:15:23.960 --> 00:15:27.279 Do you think that nut milks and vegan cheese should 276 00:15:27.360 --> 00:15:30.919 go buy something else like cheese or milk? Like? Do 277 00:15:30.960 --> 00:15:34.159 you think that we need a distinguishing name for them. 278 00:15:35.399 --> 00:15:37.519 I always think things should be able to stand on 279 00:15:37.559 --> 00:15:41.240 their own. I think that having its own allows for 280 00:15:42.559 --> 00:15:44.879 to create its own perceptions. When you put the word 281 00:15:44.919 --> 00:15:48.440 milk or cheese within the name of the product, people 282 00:15:48.480 --> 00:15:51.000 are going to automatically associate the two together. And so 283 00:15:51.159 --> 00:15:54.240 when you eat vegan cheese and it doesn't taste like cheese, 284 00:15:54.600 --> 00:15:57.759 people get upset because they're expecting it to taste like cheese, 285 00:15:58.240 --> 00:16:00.759 just like oat milk. When you have oat milk and 286 00:16:00.799 --> 00:16:03.240 it doesn't taste like regular milk, people are like, this 287 00:16:03.279 --> 00:16:05.960 is gross. And it's like, well, it's not supposed to 288 00:16:06.000 --> 00:16:09.639 be the same thing. It's own product. So I think 289 00:16:09.639 --> 00:16:12.320 we kind of do a disservice by naming these things 290 00:16:12.519 --> 00:16:14.720 and putting them in the same categories, because it doesn't 291 00:16:14.720 --> 00:16:18.240 allow that product to shine fully on its own. 292 00:16:18.440 --> 00:16:21.039 It's like calling a bike a car. They're different and 293 00:16:21.080 --> 00:16:22.639 they serve different functions. 294 00:16:22.799 --> 00:16:24.840 That's a good point, like that, yes. 295 00:16:24.600 --> 00:16:29.480 It's a bike, leader it alone exactly. So vegan cheeses 296 00:16:29.519 --> 00:16:32.759 tend to rely on starches and fats combined instead of 297 00:16:32.759 --> 00:16:35.320 protein in fats as animal dairy does. But in the 298 00:16:35.399 --> 00:16:37.120 last few years there have been more and more and 299 00:16:37.159 --> 00:16:40.000 more options for plant based cheese. So if you tried 300 00:16:40.039 --> 00:16:42.840 it years ago, give it another try, right, Now, someone 301 00:16:42.919 --> 00:16:45.559 in a lab coat out there maybe you're listening, is 302 00:16:45.600 --> 00:16:49.240 making nachos that you will love in the future. And 303 00:16:49.399 --> 00:16:53.200 that person is probably using the empirical Schreiber multability test, 304 00:16:53.279 --> 00:16:56.320 which is an actual thing which puts samples of cheese 305 00:16:56.320 --> 00:16:59.360 in an oven on a ringed Petrie dish to see 306 00:16:59.600 --> 00:17:02.840 just what kind of spread each cheese has. And yeah, 307 00:17:02.840 --> 00:17:07.079 for me personally, I find Dia cheese Daiya Dia cheese. 308 00:17:07.319 --> 00:17:10.920 Those tend to be the stretchiest, meltius gooiest. I prefer 309 00:17:11.039 --> 00:17:14.680 them over regular shredded cheeses. I think that they're better. 310 00:17:14.960 --> 00:17:18.160 But other favorite brands I've seen on plant based forums 311 00:17:18.200 --> 00:17:22.920 are Chow Creamery and one called Miokos Mazzarella, which is 312 00:17:22.960 --> 00:17:25.200 like a liquid. It comes in a bottle. I guess 313 00:17:25.279 --> 00:17:28.240 just trust the process. Violife is said to make a 314 00:17:28.240 --> 00:17:31.640 good fata cheese and for blue cheese crumbles. I've heard 315 00:17:31.680 --> 00:17:34.039 good things about Follow your Heart. Now, if you have 316 00:17:34.160 --> 00:17:37.519 some plant based friends, or maybe some vegan curious ones 317 00:17:37.640 --> 00:17:41.640 or anyone, maybe you could have like a byo VC 318 00:17:42.160 --> 00:17:45.559 bring your own vegan cheese pizza party so everyone brings 319 00:17:45.640 --> 00:17:48.359 one and then you can sample a lot without spending 320 00:17:48.599 --> 00:17:51.680 too much on any one particular one. But if you're like, 321 00:17:51.920 --> 00:17:54.240 take me back to the cows. This next topic was 322 00:17:54.279 --> 00:17:58.119 asked by Lisa Gorman and Taylor, among others. Many people 323 00:17:58.160 --> 00:18:02.119 had shuddar questions Abby, Alice Ruben, Meghan Walker, Rebecca first 324 00:18:02.119 --> 00:18:04.720 time question asker, and Rachel Glaza first time question asker 325 00:18:05.119 --> 00:18:08.960 wanted to know. Abby asked, I love sharp cheddar? What 326 00:18:09.079 --> 00:18:12.960 makes it and other similar cheeses sharp? And why is 327 00:18:13.000 --> 00:18:16.680 it so much better than mild cheeses? And Meghan Walker 328 00:18:16.680 --> 00:18:18.960 wanted to know why is so much cheddar orange? 329 00:18:20.160 --> 00:18:25.480 Great questions. So, the word sharp is a tough one, Okay, 330 00:18:25.640 --> 00:18:28.599 We in the industry don't use the words sharp very 331 00:18:28.640 --> 00:18:31.119 often to describe things because it's it can mean so 332 00:18:31.160 --> 00:18:35.119 many different things. But in America we do brand cheddars 333 00:18:35.440 --> 00:18:37.480 using the words sharp and extra sharp, and there are 334 00:18:37.519 --> 00:18:40.000 actually rules behind it. So to be a sharp cheese 335 00:18:40.039 --> 00:18:43.359 in America, it's aged between six and eight months, and 336 00:18:43.400 --> 00:18:46.880 then to be an extra sharp cheese an extra sharp cheddar, 337 00:18:47.200 --> 00:18:51.240 it's aged at least twelve months. So, in thinking about 338 00:18:51.279 --> 00:18:54.519 it from a cheesemonger perspective, the older the cheddar is, 339 00:18:54.559 --> 00:18:57.680 the stronger the flavor will be. So you have less 340 00:18:57.680 --> 00:19:02.880 moisture more acidity. So oftentimes sharpness is associated with being 341 00:19:02.920 --> 00:19:06.079 acidic or like you know, hitting the back of your 342 00:19:06.079 --> 00:19:09.279 throat kind of thing. So the older the cheddar is, 343 00:19:09.400 --> 00:19:15.519 the more sharpness or the more intensity you'll find it has. 344 00:19:16.319 --> 00:19:23.079 Now cheddars, if they're orange, they've been dyed with natural 345 00:19:23.240 --> 00:19:26.799 ingredient called a nato. A nato is a seed. It's 346 00:19:26.839 --> 00:19:30.279 similar to tumeric in some ways in that it provides 347 00:19:30.440 --> 00:19:32.799 a lot of color but not a lot of flavor 348 00:19:32.880 --> 00:19:37.119 to foods, and so when you add a nato to cheese, 349 00:19:37.440 --> 00:19:41.119 it creates the orange color without adding any flavor. A 350 00:19:41.119 --> 00:19:43.880 lot of times a nato was throughout history added to 351 00:19:44.599 --> 00:19:48.519 create distinctions between cheese types so that you can identify 352 00:19:48.559 --> 00:19:51.079 it as a certain cheese, like, oh, that's what you 353 00:19:51.240 --> 00:19:56.880 call it because it's orange. Other cheeses are dyed orange naturally, 354 00:19:57.240 --> 00:20:00.240 like a gouda will be a dark orange just because 355 00:20:00.279 --> 00:20:04.759 of time during the aging process, it'll actually get darker 356 00:20:04.799 --> 00:20:08.480 in color. So a lot of times the darkness is natural. 357 00:20:09.039 --> 00:20:11.880 Cheddars and goudhas specifically have a lot of yellow tones 358 00:20:11.880 --> 00:20:14.279 in them, and that comes from what the animals are eating. 359 00:20:14.880 --> 00:20:17.519 So the more grass and animal eats, the more yellow 360 00:20:17.559 --> 00:20:20.559 the cheese will be. Oh for cow and sheep smoke cheeses. 361 00:20:20.960 --> 00:20:23.759 So oftentimes if you see a dark yellow cheese, you 362 00:20:23.799 --> 00:20:26.640 know that the animal has been eating grass. So that's 363 00:20:26.680 --> 00:20:30.039 one another factor. But yeah, they're dyed orange using a 364 00:20:30.119 --> 00:20:31.039 nato seed. 365 00:20:31.119 --> 00:20:33.640 And so white cheddar is just that without the anato. 366 00:20:34.359 --> 00:20:37.599 Yes, exactly. And that was something that really blew my 367 00:20:37.640 --> 00:20:39.200 mind when I learned it, because when I was little, 368 00:20:39.240 --> 00:20:42.599 I only ate orange cheese. I ate. I hated white cheese. 369 00:20:42.599 --> 00:20:45.240 I thought it tasted I thought it tasted different, and 370 00:20:45.359 --> 00:20:50.480 so to hear it now, I'm like, oh, got that wrong. 371 00:20:51.119 --> 00:20:54.599 My dad was that way when they started labeling red 372 00:20:54.640 --> 00:20:57.960 licorice like red vines fat free. My dad was like, 373 00:20:58.000 --> 00:20:59.839 they don't taste the same, but they had always been, 374 00:21:00.480 --> 00:21:02.400 but they just started putting that on the label or 375 00:21:02.480 --> 00:21:05.359 like Dad, so like, I don't know, something's wrong with them. 376 00:21:05.400 --> 00:21:09.319 And it's like in your head, but that sharp, sharp cheese. 377 00:21:09.599 --> 00:21:11.519 I thought, this is a great question. I'm sure you 378 00:21:11.559 --> 00:21:13.480 get this a lot. Marcy and may of Olivia Meyers 379 00:21:13.519 --> 00:21:17.559 Sureley lose an Ombo. First time question asker Maya, Josh 380 00:21:18.079 --> 00:21:21.880 kent Ley, Rachel Guthrie Michael Newman, Kate Radford, Bradley Ludwig 381 00:21:22.039 --> 00:21:27.160 and Jordan Irons wanted to know the crystals. Rachel asked 382 00:21:27.160 --> 00:21:31.000 what are the crystals? And sharper and harder cheeses? Yeah, 383 00:21:31.000 --> 00:21:34.039 how old does it have to be? And Maya is 384 00:21:34.079 --> 00:21:37.960 a first time question asker and a Wisconsin cheesehead and 385 00:21:38.160 --> 00:21:40.559 they say they just had a delightful piece of age 386 00:21:40.559 --> 00:21:43.720 Guda and wondered what makes those magical little crystals? Why 387 00:21:43.759 --> 00:21:45.319 are they the most delicious? 388 00:21:45.680 --> 00:21:49.359 Great question? Yes, definitely get this one often. So they're 389 00:21:49.359 --> 00:21:56.039 not actual crystals. They're crystallized protein, oftentimes amino acid. So 390 00:21:56.319 --> 00:21:59.799 the most common one that you'll see inside the cheeses 391 00:22:00.119 --> 00:22:04.200 be called terraceine crystals. So as the cheese ages and 392 00:22:04.240 --> 00:22:07.519 again loses that moisture, things begin to break down in 393 00:22:07.559 --> 00:22:10.160 a different way. So it's actually a form of the 394 00:22:10.200 --> 00:22:14.799 proteins breaking down and separating into these crystallized pieces, and 395 00:22:14.839 --> 00:22:18.359 so they've become little crunchy bites in your cheese. They 396 00:22:18.519 --> 00:22:22.400 often taste saltier, but that's just the concentrated flavor of 397 00:22:22.000 --> 00:22:26.119 the proteins. There's also crystals sometimes on the x tiar 398 00:22:26.200 --> 00:22:29.880 of cheeses, like block cheddars, we'll often have what we 399 00:22:29.960 --> 00:22:34.759 call calcium lactate, which is an amino acid that is 400 00:22:35.359 --> 00:22:37.720 formed on the outside of cheddars that has a little 401 00:22:37.720 --> 00:22:41.119