WEBVTT 1 00:00:18.920 --> 00:00:22.440 Hello, and welcome to the Texas Tribune trip cast for Tuesday, 2 00:00:22.600 --> 00:00:26.160 August twelfth. I am Matthew Watkins, editor in chief of 3 00:00:26.239 --> 00:00:30.480 the Tribune, and I am joined by, as usual, our 4 00:00:30.559 --> 00:00:33.960 law and politics reporter Eleanor Clebanoff. Hello, Eleanor, Hello Matthew. 5 00:00:33.960 --> 00:00:34.240 How are you. 6 00:00:34.520 --> 00:00:38.200 I'm doing well. We were just talking about how you've 7 00:00:38.280 --> 00:00:46.159 been doing the yeomen's work of googling synonyms for unprecedented Yes. 8 00:00:46.079 --> 00:00:50.200 Very March twenty twenty vibes, but more on the Texas 9 00:00:50.280 --> 00:00:51.679 legal politics side. 10 00:00:51.759 --> 00:00:54.039 I feel like this is just I feel like the 11 00:00:54.119 --> 00:00:57.439 common debate among reporters right now is like, what's another 12 00:00:57.479 --> 00:01:00.600 word for flea? Flee the state. I feel like people 13 00:01:00.600 --> 00:01:05.879 are really you know, going DeCamp, you know, absconde, Yeah, 14 00:01:06.120 --> 00:01:10.120 really stretching the limits of our our language here to find. 15 00:01:10.159 --> 00:01:14.159 We've gotten some negative feedback on flea people who are 16 00:01:14.159 --> 00:01:17.280 sort of supportive of the Democrats and feel like flea implies, 17 00:01:17.400 --> 00:01:21.319 you know, uh, doing so without perhaps without cause or 18 00:01:21.359 --> 00:01:24.079 without you know, sort of more of a cowardly move, 19 00:01:24.120 --> 00:01:26.760 which I think we've certainly heard Republicans sort of framing 20 00:01:26.760 --> 00:01:30.000 it that way. I kind of think flee is, you know, 21 00:01:30.120 --> 00:01:32.719 you can flee in defense of democracy. 22 00:01:32.840 --> 00:01:36.920 Right, you can flee, you know, a nuclear bomb. 23 00:01:36.719 --> 00:01:41.079 Exactly, say that people who flee nuclear bombs are towers. 24 00:01:41.200 --> 00:01:43.120 I don't think there's a value judgment here. 25 00:01:43.239 --> 00:01:44.000 That's what we say. 26 00:01:44.719 --> 00:01:49.959 Yeah, so yeah, we uh abscond on the lamb. 27 00:01:50.079 --> 00:01:53.000 That one feels more criminal. Yeah yeah, yeah. 28 00:01:53.040 --> 00:01:56.879 So we're struggling eleanor dot clipping off at texts Tribune 29 00:01:56.920 --> 00:02:00.760 dot org. If anyone has any language recommendations for us. 30 00:02:00.840 --> 00:02:05.079 My email has been you don't need me. 31 00:02:06.519 --> 00:02:07.400 I apologize. 32 00:02:07.439 --> 00:02:08.960 I will say one thing, and I will I want 33 00:02:08.960 --> 00:02:11.479 to publicly may a cool book for this. I made 34 00:02:11.520 --> 00:02:15.560 a an error in a story today and people emailed 35 00:02:15.560 --> 00:02:19.240 me so aggressively. But to be fair, it was warranted. 36 00:02:19.280 --> 00:02:23.400 I engaged in bill clements erasure. I misstated what year 37 00:02:23.439 --> 00:02:27.479 Texas elected its first Republican governor. People emailed me, so 38 00:02:27.599 --> 00:02:30.360 I rate on behalf of bill clements, and that's fair. 39 00:02:30.439 --> 00:02:31.000 I did get it. 40 00:02:31.039 --> 00:02:33.159 I was an air I introduced an error in there, 41 00:02:33.199 --> 00:02:37.280 and uh, it's amazing how intense people were about that. 42 00:02:37.479 --> 00:02:39.280 They always say, you know, you don't mess with the 43 00:02:39.280 --> 00:02:42.159 bill clements hive. That's exactly. Yeah, the rule number one 44 00:02:42.199 --> 00:02:46.919 of Texas journalism. Yeah, exactly, exactly, exactly right. All right, Well, 45 00:02:47.360 --> 00:02:51.759 this week, if you haven't picked up up and picked 46 00:02:51.879 --> 00:02:55.400 up on it already, we are going to continue talking 47 00:02:55.400 --> 00:02:57.719 about the quorum break and we're going to take a 48 00:02:57.719 --> 00:03:00.680 little visit to law school, which I think is probably 49 00:03:00.719 --> 00:03:04.800 exciting to you. Yeah, you know, catching people up. I'm 50 00:03:04.840 --> 00:03:07.560 sure most people listening to the show already know. But 51 00:03:07.719 --> 00:03:11.560 Texas Democrats in the Texas House remain outside of the 52 00:03:11.639 --> 00:03:16.639 state they're fleeing. Has continued, if you will, but the 53 00:03:17.280 --> 00:03:20.840 fight has shifted maybe a little bit more to the courtroom. 54 00:03:21.159 --> 00:03:24.360 State leaders since we last spoke, including Greg Abbott and 55 00:03:24.439 --> 00:03:26.599 Ken Paxson. We'll get into that in a little bit, 56 00:03:26.879 --> 00:03:31.319 have filed lawsuits seeking to remove thirteen Democrats in the 57 00:03:31.319 --> 00:03:35.520 Texas House, including House Democratic Leader Jean wu from office, 58 00:03:36.199 --> 00:03:39.919 basically claiming that they have abandoned their duties as elected officials. 59 00:03:40.039 --> 00:03:44.520 It is an unprecedented step in which the Texas Supreme 60 00:03:44.560 --> 00:03:47.960 Court will likely ultimately decide the fate of those lawmakers 61 00:03:48.000 --> 00:03:50.759 in the coming days or maybe weeks. Joining us to 62 00:03:50.800 --> 00:03:54.120 help us understand this is David Frumkin, a law professor 63 00:03:54.159 --> 00:03:58.000 at the University of Houston who studies, administrative law, election law, 64 00:03:58.240 --> 00:04:01.479 and democratic and constitutional theory, which sounds like a pretty 65 00:04:01.479 --> 00:04:03.919 good CV for the conversation. We're about to have the 66 00:04:03.919 --> 00:04:06.960 guy we needed exactly. So David, thank you for joining us. 67 00:04:07.719 --> 00:04:08.439 Great to be with you. 68 00:04:08.919 --> 00:04:11.039 All Right, So I'm going to start with you, Eleanor, 69 00:04:11.240 --> 00:04:15.439 and I'm going to ask you to explain what these 70 00:04:15.680 --> 00:04:19.240 legal filings are before we go to David, to help 71 00:04:19.319 --> 00:04:22.480 us understand whether there's anything to these legal filings. So 72 00:04:22.600 --> 00:04:25.439 just sum up with for us as quickly as you 73 00:04:25.600 --> 00:04:31.439 can what legal actions Abbot and Paxton have taken against 74 00:04:31.480 --> 00:04:32.240 these Democrats. 75 00:04:32.439 --> 00:04:33.879 Yeah, and I will say this is like one of 76 00:04:33.920 --> 00:04:36.399 the best parts definitively of being a journalist is that, 77 00:04:36.439 --> 00:04:38.600 like you can wake up on a Monday a week 78 00:04:38.639 --> 00:04:41.839 ago and have never heard the phrase quote warrntoe in 79 00:04:41.879 --> 00:04:43.519 your life, and by the end of the week, I'm 80 00:04:43.519 --> 00:04:46.959 sitting here being like everybody knows, like to file an 81 00:04:46.959 --> 00:04:49.120 information on a quote warrant to proceeding, you got to 82 00:04:49.120 --> 00:04:52.920 follow these different steps thanks to legal experts like Professor 83 00:04:52.920 --> 00:04:55.279 Frumpkin who educate us all on the fly. 84 00:04:55.680 --> 00:04:56.759 But that's basically what this is. 85 00:04:56.759 --> 00:05:01.000 They have asked first Abbot, first Governor abbot On has 86 00:05:01.079 --> 00:05:05.680 asked the Texasupreme Court to remove House Democratic Caucus Chair 87 00:05:05.800 --> 00:05:10.279 Gene Wu through this quot warrn toe preceding Attorney General 88 00:05:10.319 --> 00:05:12.959 packs and followed up with his own suit on seeking 89 00:05:13.000 --> 00:05:16.480 to remove thirteen members through the same mechanism, one Wu 90 00:05:16.560 --> 00:05:17.319 and twelve others. 91 00:05:17.920 --> 00:05:20.079 And uh, yeah, that's it's. 92 00:05:19.920 --> 00:05:23.759 An unprecedented filing to be used for a quorum break. 93 00:05:23.800 --> 00:05:28.360 It is basically if a public official. It can also 94 00:05:28.399 --> 00:05:30.600 be using corporate settings, but putting that aside for a second, 95 00:05:30.639 --> 00:05:34.199 if a public official has vacated their office or abandoned 96 00:05:34.240 --> 00:05:36.120 their office, it is how you get them. 97 00:05:36.079 --> 00:05:37.759 Formally removed from office. 98 00:05:39.000 --> 00:05:42.399 There are there's like rare precedent and how this has 99 00:05:42.399 --> 00:05:46.040 been used in you know these sort of in general, 100 00:05:46.120 --> 00:05:47.639 like how do you get somebody out of office? 101 00:05:48.000 --> 00:05:50.600 It has never been used, you know, quorm break setting. 102 00:05:50.839 --> 00:05:53.079 Okay, So David, I want to ask you first with 103 00:05:53.079 --> 00:05:55.439 a very simple question. I mean, is there anything laid 104 00:05:55.439 --> 00:05:59.199 out in the Constitution or elsewhere that sets sort of 105 00:05:59.600 --> 00:06:04.879 defined what kind of abandoning office? Abandoning your office means? 106 00:06:05.000 --> 00:06:07.680 Is that like what do we have to go with 107 00:06:07.839 --> 00:06:11.120 to evaluate whether these Democrats have actually abandoned their office. 108 00:06:12.759 --> 00:06:16.279 The Constitution says that when a vacancy occurs in a 109 00:06:16.319 --> 00:06:19.319 legislative position, then it is the job of the governor 110 00:06:19.480 --> 00:06:23.000 to call a special election to fill that vacancy. It 111 00:06:23.040 --> 00:06:26.439 doesn't provide an exhaustive list of the conditions under which 112 00:06:26.439 --> 00:06:30.120 a vacancy would occur, and the legal theory underlying these 113 00:06:30.600 --> 00:06:34.120 actions is that a court is entitled to identify a 114 00:06:34.160 --> 00:06:36.879 vacancy under this kind of circumstance. 115 00:06:37.720 --> 00:06:42.759 This circumstance being essentially leaving the state in an effort 116 00:06:42.839 --> 00:06:46.920 to make it impossible for the Texas House to do 117 00:06:48.040 --> 00:06:52.199 its job to function. Essentially, I mean this is a. 118 00:06:52.160 --> 00:06:53.199 Thing, though. 119 00:06:53.759 --> 00:06:56.279 I mean Texas lawmakers have been breaking quorum as we 120 00:06:56.360 --> 00:06:59.759 call it since like the eighteen seventies. Our founding fathers 121 00:07:00.120 --> 00:07:03.120 for reasons that we don't know, but our founding fathers 122 00:07:03.160 --> 00:07:05.240 set our quorum very high. They gave us a two 123 00:07:05.319 --> 00:07:08.240 thirds quorum. We're one of only four states that has 124 00:07:08.240 --> 00:07:09.319 a two thirds quorum. 125 00:07:09.680 --> 00:07:10.399 It is notable. 126 00:07:10.399 --> 00:07:12.199 Those are the only states that really have ever had 127 00:07:12.319 --> 00:07:16.920 quorum breaks. Most states fifty percent, fine, whatever, here two thirds. 128 00:07:17.160 --> 00:07:19.120 The legal experts or the historians I've talked to you 129 00:07:19.120 --> 00:07:24.800 feel like this reflects early Texas's wanting to make government difficult, 130 00:07:25.639 --> 00:07:27.959 small and difficult to enact. 131 00:07:28.360 --> 00:07:29.600 We don't know that for sure, though. 132 00:07:29.879 --> 00:07:34.240 Okay, okay, so I mean, David, help us analyze these 133 00:07:34.279 --> 00:07:37.800 legal arguments that have What do you think about the 134 00:07:37.800 --> 00:07:42.560 case that Abbott and Paxton are making about you know 135 00:07:42.639 --> 00:07:46.160 that what they have done actually constitutes, you know, abandonment 136 00:07:46.160 --> 00:07:46.600 of office. 137 00:07:47.720 --> 00:07:50.879 I think the case offered by both the governor and 138 00:07:50.879 --> 00:07:54.759 the Attorney General is very weak. They really haven't pointed 139 00:07:54.839 --> 00:07:58.240 to any precedent that supports their position. In fact, the 140 00:07:58.279 --> 00:08:02.160 precedents they cite tend to support or the alternative view 141 00:08:02.560 --> 00:08:05.639 that these legislators have not abandoned their positions because they 142 00:08:05.639 --> 00:08:08.480 intend to hold and exercise their positions. They're doing what 143 00:08:08.519 --> 00:08:12.279 they're doing in order to advance their legislative goals. The 144 00:08:12.319 --> 00:08:15.759 precedents that both the governor and the Attorney General cited 145 00:08:16.160 --> 00:08:19.759 suggests that a court could identify an instance of abandonment 146 00:08:20.120 --> 00:08:23.959 when a legislative office holder is no longer trying to 147 00:08:24.000 --> 00:08:26.720 exercise their office. Say they've gone off on a cruise 148 00:08:26.759 --> 00:08:29.759 for a year and they're not even engaged in legislative business. 149 00:08:30.360 --> 00:08:33.240 That's a far cry from the kind of situation we're 150 00:08:33.240 --> 00:08:33.919 looking at here. 151 00:08:34.879 --> 00:08:37.840 So I mean, basically, what you're saying, what I think 152 00:08:37.879 --> 00:08:40.360 the Democrats are maybe arguing in as well, is that 153 00:08:41.200 --> 00:08:45.120 leaving the state to break quorum is not an abandonment office. 154 00:08:45.159 --> 00:08:53.600 It's actually using it's a constitutionally created function tool lever 155 00:08:53.720 --> 00:08:56.639 that they have to execute kind of their political or 156 00:08:56.799 --> 00:08:57.720 legislative goals. 157 00:08:58.000 --> 00:08:59.440 That's certainly what the Democrats are saying. 158 00:08:59.440 --> 00:09:03.360 I mean, they're saying, like, the constituents we represent in 159 00:09:03.440 --> 00:09:06.639 our blue districts do not want these new maps. We 160 00:09:06.720 --> 00:09:09.559 have no way to in like sort of represent them 161 00:09:09.639 --> 00:09:12.440 and block these maps by staying here. So to best 162 00:09:12.480 --> 00:09:14.519 represent them, we must leave the state and stop the 163 00:09:14.559 --> 00:09:15.480 maps from being passed. 164 00:09:16.399 --> 00:09:16.600 You know. 165 00:09:18.200 --> 00:09:20.320 And we might get into this, but the Texas Supreme 166 00:09:20.360 --> 00:09:23.960 Court ruled in twenty twenty one that the Texas Constitution 167 00:09:24.240 --> 00:09:28.279 enables quorum breaking, that was their term. It also though, 168 00:09:28.399 --> 00:09:31.200 enables quorum forcing, which is like and they say that 169 00:09:31.440 --> 00:09:34.600 is something the chambers can do. They can set finds, 170 00:09:34.720 --> 00:09:37.679 they can set censure, they can even vote to expel 171 00:09:37.720 --> 00:09:42.200 a member over breaking quorum. You would need quorum and 172 00:09:42.240 --> 00:09:45.639 a two thirds vote to expel a member, So you know, 173 00:09:46.039 --> 00:09:48.559 that's a tricky thing for them to sort of get 174 00:09:48.559 --> 00:09:51.879 around now that this basically essentially more or less the 175 00:09:51.879 --> 00:09:55.960 same Supreme Court said the constitution enables quorum breaking. 176 00:09:57.000 --> 00:09:59.519 Okay, so you what you are citing here is a 177 00:10:00.360 --> 00:10:04.559 an opinion by Justice Jimmy Blacklock, who now Chief Justice, 178 00:10:04.720 --> 00:10:07.600 who is now Chief Justice. Exactly. This is dating back 179 00:10:07.639 --> 00:10:12.200 to twenty twenty one, right when lawmakers fled the state 180 00:10:12.360 --> 00:10:15.600 to stop a voting a bill that would impose new 181 00:10:15.679 --> 00:10:21.759 voting restrictions. The House issued warrants to bring them back 182 00:10:21.840 --> 00:10:24.679 to the capitol, which is, you know, as you mentioned, 183 00:10:24.679 --> 00:10:27.519 allowed in the constitution, and Blacklock wrote, I'm going to 184 00:10:27.559 --> 00:10:31.360 just read the quote here. While it it being the Constitution, 185 00:10:31.480 --> 00:10:35.320 I believe does enable quorum breaking by a minority faction. 186 00:10:35.639 --> 00:10:38.840 It also enables the remaining members to compel the attendance 187 00:10:39.200 --> 00:10:42.639 of absent members. The two thirds quorum rule protects against 188 00:10:43.120 --> 00:10:46.960 legislative action by a smaller fraction of the body. And so. 189 00:10:50.039 --> 00:10:50.440 There we go. 190 00:10:50.519 --> 00:10:52.480 It's done. Right. They're going to reject this is that 191 00:10:52.519 --> 00:10:54.639 the well Governor. 192 00:10:54.279 --> 00:10:56.639 Abbott has argued in his filing, And David, I'm curious 193 00:10:56.639 --> 00:10:58.720 your thoughts on this argument, because I found it sort 194 00:10:58.759 --> 00:11:03.120 of a compelling framing to say, well, the highway enables 195 00:11:03.159 --> 00:11:05.480 you to drive one hundred and twenty miles per hour. 196 00:11:05.720 --> 00:11:08.159 If you keep doing that, eventually we're going to take 197 00:11:08.159 --> 00:11:09.039 away your license. 198 00:11:10.240 --> 00:11:11.200 I mean, what do you sort. 199 00:11:11.000 --> 00:11:13.159 Of make of that argument that enabled is not doing 200 00:11:13.200 --> 00:11:15.120 that much as much work as people think it is 201 00:11:15.120 --> 00:11:16.000 in that ruling. 202 00:11:17.759 --> 00:11:19.960 I think the important thing to understand here is that 203 00:11:20.000 --> 00:11:23.240 there would be a very fundamental separation of powers problem 204 00:11:23.559 --> 00:11:27.679 with a judicial officer coming in and trying to impose 205 00:11:27.840 --> 00:11:31.279 rules on the House. The Constitution assigns to the House 206 00:11:31.600 --> 00:11:35.200 the power to make its own rules of procedure. That 207 00:11:35.320 --> 00:11:38.039 implies that there are pretty strong limits on the ability 208 00:11:38.120 --> 00:11:40.919 of either the executive or the judiciary to come in 209 00:11:40.960 --> 00:11:44.279 and try to supersede those choices by the House. In fact, 210 00:11:44.320 --> 00:11:47.759 the Texas Constitution has a stronger separation of powers than 211 00:11:47.799 --> 00:11:50.639 the Federal Constitution has a separation of powers clause that 212 00:11:50.720 --> 00:11:55.039 makes explicit that where the Texas Constitution assigns to one 213 00:11:55.120 --> 00:11:58.159 branch of government of power, it prohibits the other branches 214 00:11:58.200 --> 00:12:01.320 from intruding on the exercise that power. And that's exactly 215 00:12:01.360 --> 00:12:03.720 what the governor and the Attorney General in my view 216 00:12:03.879 --> 00:12:05.440 are asking a court to do here. 217 00:12:05.960 --> 00:12:08.639 Well, that's interesting because we've seen this come up recently 218 00:12:08.639 --> 00:12:13.679 in other cases. Right, the Ken Paxton remains very upset 219 00:12:13.720 --> 00:12:16.399 with some members of the Court of Criminal Appeals, right 220 00:12:16.440 --> 00:12:21.960 because they banned they prevented him from prosecuting voter fraud cases. 221 00:12:22.000 --> 00:12:25.720 If I'm not mistaken, claiming that same separation of powers. Essentially, 222 00:12:25.879 --> 00:12:30.240 you know, the AG's office is part of the executive brand. 223 00:12:30.360 --> 00:12:32.720 They can't I mean, well, and in that case they 224 00:12:32.759 --> 00:12:35.039 have to be invited in by the district attorney. That's 225 00:12:35.080 --> 00:12:37.840 like not a power given to them exactly, right, which 226 00:12:37.840 --> 00:12:40.559 we should say in that case. You know, Attorney General 227 00:12:40.639 --> 00:12:43.200 Ken Paxton was very upset with that ruling. He worked 228 00:12:43.200 --> 00:12:46.279 to unseat three incumbents on that court. Two more have 229 00:12:46.320 --> 00:12:48.039 said that they are not going to run for reelection, 230 00:12:48.639 --> 00:12:52.679 and there's already been some rhetoric around, you know, I 231 00:12:52.720 --> 00:12:56.039 mean from one person particular, Michael Quinn Sullivan has said, 232 00:12:56.120 --> 00:12:59.360 like the eyes of Texas Republican primary voters are on 233 00:12:59.399 --> 00:13:02.159 the Texasupreme Court with this case. Now, like all they 234 00:13:02.159 --> 00:13:03.200 have to do is look at what happened with the 235 00:13:03.240 --> 00:13:05.320 Court of Criminal Appeals. Like there is a lot of 236 00:13:05.320 --> 00:13:08.480 pressure on the Supreme Court right now, I would say, 237 00:13:08.519 --> 00:13:11.080 like frankly, like, I think Governor Abbott and Attorney General 238 00:13:11.120 --> 00:13:13.759 Paksna put them in a bit of a buying tier. 239 00:13:13.799 --> 00:13:17.080 Right, right, Because the other difference between you know, the 240 00:13:17.120 --> 00:13:21.039 federal Constitution, the federal courts, and the state courts is 241 00:13:21.080 --> 00:13:24.240 that the state courts are elected, right, And so you know, 242 00:13:24.360 --> 00:13:30.200 in this state we have nine Republican members who face, 243 00:13:31.720 --> 00:13:34.639 you know, the most important election that they will be 244 00:13:34.679 --> 00:13:38.440 involved when will be in primaries including if I'm not mistaken, 245 00:13:38.480 --> 00:13:43.039 eleanor three next year. Right. I think there are a 246 00:13:43.080 --> 00:13:45.240 lot of people watching this. You know, Jimmy Blacklock again 247 00:13:45.279 --> 00:13:47.679 you mentioned the Chief Justice, he wrote that opinion. He 248 00:13:47.759 --> 00:13:50.399 was also appointed by Governor Abbot, as were many other 249 00:13:50.440 --> 00:13:53.000 members of the Supreme Court. I think there is a 250 00:13:53.120 --> 00:13:56.600 question of, you know, is there going to be intense 251 00:13:56.919 --> 00:14:01.799 pressure electoral or otherwise? Two go along with what Abbot 252 00:14:01.799 --> 00:14:04.919 and Paston are going for. David, I wonder what you 253 00:14:05.039 --> 00:14:08.200 think about that fear by many conservatives. I mean, do 254 00:14:08.200 --> 00:14:13.639 you think that's a reasonable concern that some Democrats have? 255 00:14:15.039 --> 00:14:17.399 Well, I guess I can't really answer that question as 256 00:14:17.399 --> 00:14:21.120 a legal expert. I mean, I will say that, I 257 00:14:21.159 --> 00:14:24.600 think there are some strong arguments for having a popularly 258 00:14:24.759 --> 00:14:30.000 accountable judiciary. It's a good thing that ultimately public officials 259 00:14:30.080 --> 00:14:33.120 are accountable to the people. And at the end of 260 00:14:33.159 --> 00:14:35.840 the day, the question is going to be what will 261 00:14:35.879 --> 00:14:38.960 the people put up with in their public officials? 262 00:14:40.879 --> 00:14:43.000 I mean, and where we stand now, the Texas Supreme 263 00:14:43.039 --> 00:14:48.679 Court has issued this extended deadline. So Governor Abbott asked so, 264 00:14:49.039 --> 00:14:51.480 and just for context here right, Governor Abbott a former 265 00:14:52.039 --> 00:14:54.480 member of the Texas Supreme Court, a former attorney general. 266 00:14:54.759 --> 00:14:57.480 He has appointed six of these nine justices, many of 267 00:14:57.519 --> 00:15:00.279 whom have gone, all of whom now have gone, you know, 268 00:15:00.679 --> 00:15:02.679 many of whom have gone on to win reelection on 269 00:15:02.720 --> 00:15:06.120 their own. Two of them are his former general counsels, 270 00:15:06.159 --> 00:15:12.639 including Chief Justice Blacklock. He, some legal experts said, somewhat presumptively, 271 00:15:13.159 --> 00:15:16.799 asked the Supreme Court to rule on this what he 272 00:15:16.840 --> 00:15:20.360 called a constitutional crisis case in forty eight hours. They 273 00:15:20.399 --> 00:15:21.799 did not take him up on that, and just last 274 00:15:21.879 --> 00:15:24.600 night they issued this briefing schedule that will put us 275 00:15:24.600 --> 00:15:27.240 basically past Labor Day before we get a decision on this, 276 00:15:27.360 --> 00:15:29.600 which buying themselves some time. 277 00:15:29.720 --> 00:15:33.200 It seems like, yeah, what do you make of that, David, 278 00:15:33.240 --> 00:15:37.799 I mean, I think what that does is it it 279 00:15:37.799 --> 00:15:41.720 brings us to a situation where we're probably going to 280 00:15:41.759 --> 00:15:45.679 go past the special session period before we get a 281 00:15:45.720 --> 00:15:48.960 ruling on this. I mean, obviously Abbott can and will 282 00:15:49.080 --> 00:15:52.080 call another special session if this one ends, and in fact, 283 00:15:52.120 --> 00:15:54.200 I think Dan Patrick came out today and said that 284 00:15:54.240 --> 00:15:55.960 he might, and the session arose. 285 00:15:56.000 --> 00:15:58.080 Yeah, they said that they would adjourn Friday if they 286 00:15:58.080 --> 00:16:00.799 don't have quorum and immediately call immediately start the thirty. 287 00:16:00.639 --> 00:16:04.320 Day clock over exactly. But is there anything to read 288 00:16:04.480 --> 00:16:08.799 into this kind of rejection of Abbott's request to rule 289 00:16:08.919 --> 00:16:13.559 very quickly on this and hear briefings and you know, 290 00:16:13.639 --> 00:16:14.639 kind of let this play out. 291 00:16:15.679 --> 00:16:18.600 I don't think it was at all surprising, particularly in 292 00:16:18.639 --> 00:16:22.240 a situation where the Attorney General was suggesting that there 293 00:16:22.279 --> 00:16:26.840 was a standing problem with the governor's filing. So there 294 00:16:26.840 --> 00:16:29.879 are a lot of procedural issues, complicated procedural issues that 295 00:16:29.919 --> 00:16:32.440 the Court will want to look into before it rules 296 00:16:32.480 --> 00:16:35.120 on this question. The standing issue is not the only one. 297 00:16:35.240 --> 00:16:40.200 There's actually a very fundamental jurisdictional issue here. The jurisdictional 298 00:16:40.240 --> 00:16:44.600 provision that both the governor and the Attorney General have 299 00:16:44.639 --> 00:16:47.240 suggested as the basis for the Supreme Court's ability to 300 00:16:47.320 --> 00:16:52.080 rule on this question arguably does not extend to making 301 00:16:52.080 --> 00:16:56.440 a determination about a legislative vacancy. In the language of 302 00:16:56.480 --> 00:16:59.519 that jurisdictional statute says that they can rule on this 303 00:16:59.639 --> 00:17:03.039 kind of of action with respect to an officer of 304 00:17:03.080 --> 00:17:06.880 state government, But the Supreme Court has previously interpreted that 305 00:17:07.000 --> 00:17:10.839 language to refer to a narrower class of officials that 306 00:17:10.920 --> 00:17:12.640 doesn't include legislators. 307 00:17:13.279 --> 00:17:15.920 And David, is what you're talking about here, this idea 308 00:17:15.960 --> 00:17:20.319 that it seems as though the rules for how you 309 00:17:20.359 --> 00:17:22.960 go about getting this removal is you go to a 310 00:17:23.000 --> 00:17:27.400 district court first, presumably one that is within the jurisdiction. 311 00:17:27.559 --> 00:17:32.240 I also believe it doesn't allow for it doesn't explicitly 312 00:17:32.240 --> 00:17:35.079 allow for the governor to make this filing. Is that 313 00:17:35.119 --> 00:17:36.359 sort of what you're talking about here. 314 00:17:36.880 --> 00:17:39.079 So there are two separate issues there, one about the 315 00:17:39.079 --> 00:17:42.039 standing of the governor specifically. But you're absolutely right, and 316 00:17:42.119 --> 00:17:44.200 I think the proper jurisdictional course would have been to 317 00:17:44.200 --> 00:17:47.400 go to a district court first rather than trying to 318 00:17:48.039 --> 00:17:50.319 have an expedite at proceeding before the Supreme Court. 319 00:17:51.519 --> 00:17:53.759 I mean this has been messy, right, I mean you 320 00:17:53.799 --> 00:17:56.359 sort of mentioned this right with Attorney General Paxton has 321 00:17:56.480 --> 00:18:00.359 raised standing issues about Governor Abbe being able to bring this. 322 00:18:00.519 --> 00:18:03.799 I think there's been sort of a degree of in 323 00:18:03.799 --> 00:18:05.839 fighting in the courts that creates a lot of this 324 00:18:06.000 --> 00:18:08.200 uncertainty and sort of crass. I think an opening for 325 00:18:08.240 --> 00:18:09.799 the courts to say, like we need a minute. 326 00:18:09.640 --> 00:18:12.440 Yeah, let's let's actually step back and just walk through 327 00:18:12.440 --> 00:18:14.920 that process. Because I think it's, like you said, it's 328 00:18:14.960 --> 00:18:17.799 MESSI it's also kind of fascinating and interesting. There's a 329 00:18:17.839 --> 00:18:21.160 lot of dynamics here. So on August third, Democrats leave 330 00:18:21.200 --> 00:18:27.559 the state. Greg Abbott, I think that same day essentially 331 00:18:27.640 --> 00:18:30.119 threatens to remove them, saying that you know, we will 332 00:18:30.119 --> 00:18:32.359 take action to this. I think you know, I will 333 00:18:32.400 --> 00:18:35.119 speak for myself here. When I read that, I read 334 00:18:35.119 --> 00:18:37.880 that as not necessarily meaning that he would file it, 335 00:18:37.960 --> 00:18:40.039 but that you know, someone in Texas would file it. 336 00:18:40.079 --> 00:18:43.039 But regardless that that's what happens. A day later, the 337 00:18:43.079 --> 00:18:46.359 House issues arrest warrants for the members, you know, just 338 00:18:46.640 --> 00:18:49.400 quickly right standard fair. It means you can arrest them 339 00:18:49.400 --> 00:18:51.319 and essentially bring them back to the House. It doesn't 340 00:18:51.319 --> 00:18:53.759 mean you're like state line going to charge them, yeah 341 00:18:54.039 --> 00:18:56.319 and yeah, and you can only arrest people within state lines. 342 00:18:56.640 --> 00:19:01.200 And then Paxton on August fifth, announces that he'll seek 343 00:19:01.400 --> 00:19:04.119 orders to remove Democrats from their seats if they don't 344 00:19:04.160 --> 00:19:10.720 return by that Friday. Hours later, Governor Abbott files to 345 00:19:10.759 --> 00:19:15.279 specifically remove Gene Wu, the House Democratic Leader, which then 346 00:19:15.400 --> 00:19:18.640 leads maybe like an hour later for Paxton to write 347 00:19:18.640 --> 00:19:21.759 a letter to the Supreme Court essentially saying, you know, 348 00:19:22.279 --> 00:19:24.880 Governor Abbott means well, here, but you know, we all 349 00:19:24.880 --> 00:19:27.400 know he can't actually do this. Where it kind of 350 00:19:27.400 --> 00:19:31.119 looks like these two you know, high profile statewide elected 351 00:19:31.160 --> 00:19:34.359 officials are sort of fighting each other over who gets 352 00:19:34.400 --> 00:19:39.279 the right to throw out these Democrats. Meanwhile, our you know, 353 00:19:39.400 --> 00:19:43.240 senior state Senator John Cornyan, who faces a primary challenge 354 00:19:43.240 --> 00:19:47.799 from Attorney General Kin Paxton, is essentially just lobbing grenades 355 00:19:47.839 --> 00:19:52.519 from Washington d C at Ken Paxton essentially saying, you know, 356 00:19:52.640 --> 00:19:55.960 he's not doing enough. He's on a European vacation, like 357 00:19:56.039 --> 00:19:58.720 Greg Abbott is having to step in and do the 358 00:19:58.759 --> 00:20:01.319 work for the Attorney g General without him, And so 359 00:20:01.640 --> 00:20:06.279 it's this fascinating and maybe I will say hilarious, you know, 360 00:20:06.720 --> 00:20:10.400 kind of like fight within the political fight over who 361 00:20:10.400 --> 00:20:13.559 can do this and what kind of I guess political 362 00:20:13.599 --> 00:20:16.279 benefit they can get from being able to do it right. 363 00:20:16.319 --> 00:20:20.200 And Paxton originally said, which I think legal experts sort 364 00:20:20.240 --> 00:20:22.519 of agree with. He said, like, we would have to 365 00:20:22.519 --> 00:20:24.119 file each of the He was like, this is going 366 00:20:24.200 --> 00:20:25.599 to be a challenge. We're gonna have to file in 367 00:20:25.640 --> 00:20:28.880 everyone's individual jurisdiction. You know, this would have to be 368 00:20:29.079 --> 00:20:32.039 you know, we're going to be in blue counties, DA, DA, DA. 369 00:20:32.640 --> 00:20:35.279 And now he came in, like you said, after these 370 00:20:35.319 --> 00:20:37.759 you know, bombs are being thrown at him and files 371 00:20:37.759 --> 00:20:39.240 in the Supreme Court and says like, oh no, no, no, no, 372 00:20:39.480 --> 00:20:42.759 I can file in the Supreme Court directly. Actually, Governor Abbot, 373 00:20:42.759 --> 00:20:46.160 we should say, is arguing he can. The one part 374 00:20:46.160 --> 00:20:48.960 of state statute says a quote warrant o proceeding can 375 00:20:49.000 --> 00:20:51.559 only be brought by the county or district attorney or 376 00:20:51.599 --> 00:20:54.160 the Attorney General and district court. Governor Abbott says, I'm 377 00:20:54.160 --> 00:20:56.880 citing a different part of state statute. Now, you know, 378 00:20:57.359 --> 00:21:00.000 Atturne General Paxton is saying, I'm citing that part of statute. 379 00:21:00.039 --> 00:21:01.640 But I think we can go directly to the Texas 380 00:21:01.640 --> 00:21:04.319 Supreme Court. So you can sort of understand the Texasupreme 381 00:21:04.319 --> 00:21:07.480 Court saying like we're gonna need a minute on all 382 00:21:07.559 --> 00:21:11.519 of this to your point, David, just like the standing 383 00:21:11.519 --> 00:21:14.319 and the jurisdictional issues and the even before we get 384 00:21:14.400 --> 00:21:18.400 to the unprecedented question of is this vacating an office, 385 00:21:18.440 --> 00:21:20.839 Like they've created a little bit of a and they 386 00:21:20.839 --> 00:21:23.680 have now consolidated those cases together and have basically said 387 00:21:24.039 --> 00:21:26.519 and this morning, Attorney or late last night, Attorney General 388 00:21:26.559 --> 00:21:29.720 Ken Paxon said he looks forward to fighting alongside Governor 389 00:21:29.759 --> 00:21:30.279 Abbott on this. 390 00:21:30.599 --> 00:21:33.680 So we're all friends again. Yeah. 391 00:21:33.720 --> 00:21:38.599 So I guess, David, what can you tell us about 392 00:21:38.640 --> 00:21:42.640 like how what we should expect and how we should 393 00:21:42.680 --> 00:21:45.799 watch this in the coming days, weeks and months. I mean, 394 00:21:45.839 --> 00:21:49.079 how does this do we know? Is there enough President 395 00:21:49.160 --> 00:21:52.759 President to know how this plays out in the coming weeks. 396 00:21:53.279 --> 00:21:56.480 Well, as I've said, I think there's absolutely no precedent 397 00:21:56.680 --> 00:22:03.240 supporting the position of the plaintiffs here. I think it 398 00:22:03.279 --> 00:22:06.759 would be really shocking if the Supreme Court were to 399 00:22:07.039 --> 00:22:11.640 find any merit in these claims that in my view 400 00:22:11.880 --> 00:22:16.839 seemed to be completely without merit, even after you address 401 00:22:16.920 --> 00:22:21.920