Speaker 1: What is up, fellows it goos. I am Dan fa
Valley coming at you with the one, the only, my
certified fantabulous co host, mister Grant Hughes. We are here
to talk about NBA teams that could potentially look dramatically
different next season, because that's just an interesting topic this
time of the year. There's still games going on, the
playoff races are being covered. But we just did a
bunch of sophomore stock reports, took a look at, you know,
player values to each team. This was like a good
exercise to go into right now, especially with Grant. We've
reached kind of that point where we're removed from the
trade deadline by about a month, and so now all
these rumors trickle out about the trades that didn't happen
or the things that were happening but behind the scenes.
So it's also somewhat topical there. But first and foremost,
how the heck are you, sir?
Speaker 2: I'm doing very well, and I would like to point
out to anyone concerned that if Dan and I like
yell at each other, it's the sign of a good relationship,
because that's what Kevin Durant and Mike Budenholzer have taught
us is that's how you can tell if you're really
getting along well as if you constantly scream at each
other in public.
Speaker 1: Look, I favor it. That's fine, which clearly means that
we despise each other because I have. Honestly, the biggest
disagreement we have might have come on the previous podcast
when we talked about Brandon Pajemski and Jonathan Cominga's value
to the Warriors long term.
Speaker 2: Could be, well, who knows, maybe something will happen today,
maybe we'll finally.
Speaker 1: We're still waiting for the day where you just get
irate on the podcast. We're all just waiting. So when
we were building our list here and so the way
to work is we have like kind of the primary
candidates list, and then we each chose a dark horse
that will talk about at the end, and then they'll
be assuming there's time, I'll roll through a bunch of
the super quick hitters and say like, if this happens,
could this team fall here? And then Grant will respond
to see what he thinks about that. But when you
were kind of cobbling together like our initial list, how
did you like, what is the crux of this approach,
especially when you're looking at teams that aren't always going
to fall on the same end of the competitive spectrum
right now.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's interesting that because I think we do have
a pretty good I'd say the list of our team
skews more towards like, you know, winning than losing or
like pretty good right now. I think what mattered more
was the intersection of like decisions that are going to
be foisted on them, like for reasons outside the team's control,
like just contracts expire, or like player options come up
or whatever. That how that intersects with to draw it
back to the KD. Buttenholzer thing of like the dynamics
within the team just suggests like something's got to give,
So like the interior and exterior force is just like
nudging the team towards being pretty different next year. What
I didn't focus on as much is like, well, how
easy will it be for them to be different? And
we'll talk about that because one thing that is these
teams don't have in common is just like their level
of flexibility and like how easy or hard it'll be
for them to you know, to undertake the kind of
changes we're talking about. So Yeah, it's mostly just like
if you had to if you had to look at
the teams this year, like what forces, how many forces
are sort of pushing them to look different? I guess
if I had to make it as neat as possible,
that is that how you approached it, like or was
it more like did you lean one way or the
other harder? Like in terms of like, oh, this guy's
a free agent versus like something i'd do freaking something
about the suns.
Speaker 1: You know, I think this is it's I think at
the top it's heavily weighted by decisions as you mentioned,
that could be foisted upon them. But I actually more
so kind of lasered in on okay, teams that are
they either trying to take the next step or do
they think that they took the next step and it's
clearly not working, And there's been enough time to say that, Okay,
it's not working, Like are we gonna look for a
pivot or do we have news reported evidence that oh
they are clearly looking for a change up. I did
what I did struggle with, and we do have some
of these teams in here is to be an outright
seller wasn't really something that I factor into the equation
there's one or two teams that might amble on to
that primary tier that we're going to talk about, But
I didn't like, Okay, these teams might look a lot different,
but there if you were gonna if it was involved
of oh, they're gonna move a lot of veterans, in
my head, it was almost were they also trying to
take a step forward as well to where the Blazers
would be a good example, which is a team that
I think we'll talk about, is okay, Like, especially the
way they're playing now, it's they definitely should be looking
to move Jeremy Grant, DeAndre Ayten or just An Aighton's
injured at the moment, Like those are the two names
you gravitate towards. But it's okay, well, how much of
a like are those the two? Even though I Jeremy
Grant's gonna play a ton of minutes, is he someone
who's necessarily driving success for the Blazers? So I also
try to factor that is, yeah, Brooklyn, there's gonna be turnover,
Like maybe they trade Cam Johnson, maybe they trade Nick Clackson.
They're gonna bring in a high draft pick, we think,
But They're not a team that's gonna make the primary tier.
Speaker 2: For me, right, yeah, I agree with that.
Speaker 1: We begin with the Houston Rockets. I think the way
to approach this is they do have some decisions that
are being foisted upon them. When you look at specifically
the Fred van Fleet team option. They did just extend
Jalen Green and Alpa and Shangun, so those salaries will
kick in and now you're thinking about extensions this offseason,
or at least they're eligible for them in Tar East
and Jabari Smith Junior. And this is all juxtapose against Okay.
The Rockets are good now, but we've kind of like
that Fred van Fleet injury and then Shanghun did miss
some like some time. It did kind of spotlight the
limitations of their offense, which we've all suspected all along.
That all goes to say, I could see this team
not doing anything over the offseason because one Reed Shepherd
comes out and drops twenty five against Okay C's defense.
The answer is right there and now everything a lot
of these teams, it depends on Okay, Well, what happens
in the playoffs. We think that Houston's gonna be a
little vulnerable in the playoffs. But grant, what if they
go into the playoffs, they make the conference finals or something.
Why like, are you really going to say, oh, they
need to make a consolidation trade right now. But for me,
at least I have them here because they have the assets,
they're good enough to say, right, we want to make
that leap into authentic title contention. I could see them.
Maybe it won't be a bunch of moves where it's oh,
four different guy, or maybe it has to be because
of whatever the package ends up being. But they seem
like a team that should be on the radar. If
there's this singular seismic type move made, they're among the
candidates to pull it off.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think you can get You can come at
them from a lot of different angles. And it's not
I would know too. It's not just Jabari Smith and
Tarry Easton our extension eligible this summer. It's like the
waves just keep coming, like two at a time after that,
where it'll be Thompson and Cam Whitmore and then like,
by the way, Jalen Green's contract is so short, he's
going to be eligible for an extension in like a
couple of years. Too, and then Shepherd will be there
whoever they you know, So it is it is very
much like it's not urgent, right, It's not the same
kind of It's not like, oh my god, we have
to consolidate now because we can't pay all these I mean,
that's partly true, but you do sort of need to
make decisions. And that part of it coupled with like
where Houston is the difference that like a high end
offensive engine could make if it's not Fred van Vliet.
If Fred van Vliet is this is someone that you
pick up the team option on to trade in a
package for LaMelo ball or or Trey Young or whatever
like to get the okay, we have the engine now
that they really don't like. There's all these different angles
for it to take. And I mean we can talk
as much or as little about it as you want.
But the phoenix of it all with maybe Kevin Durant
is the guy that they want to you know, PLoP
in there to just super fast tracked the contention window
and you've got Phoenix's picks to send back, which we've
mentioned a million times. Like Devin Booker, you know, there's
no report. Reporting just continues to go the other way
that Devin Booker doesn't want out. We'll talk more about
them later, but you know, there's just a lot of
different ways that could go for the Rockets, and I
don't think it would be Well, what do you do
you think it would be a mistake to make the
like consolidation trade or make the big swing this summer.
Speaker 1: I don't think I want to see have a playoffs unfold, obviously,
I don't think it would be a mistake. When you
get into someone like a Kevin Durant who can fit anywhere,
it is still incredible. The opportunity cost matters a lot
to me, because if you're gonna like caps Lot consolidates
where it's not just salary, and then like a Phoenix
pick or two, like if that's the like, if it's
Fred van Fleet, a smaller salary, and then we're talking
what one or two of Phoenix's picks or just one
or two picks in general to get Kevin Durant, I
think that's worth the roll of the dice. But now
if you're talking about giving up a couple of your
youngsters in addition to even more draft equity than that,
I think you want someone let's use another member of
the Phoenix Suns. Like on the Devin Booker age timeline,
they're under their preferably you'd want them even younger. But
those guys, unless you're a big believer in LaMelo ball,
becoming available, like, they don't really become available at that
unless you're being run by Nico Harrison apparently in the
ideal age bracket. So I'm I think the Rockets are
an envy in an enviable position because they're open to anything.
But if you look at it through the like Kevin
Durant's availability if you're Houston, is that someone just he's
still great? I want to make that clear, but knowing
how old he is, and then okay, yes, he'll presumably
want to stay, but then also like he's wanted to
leave places, yeah, somewhat quickly? Like does that like how
I guess we I sometimes like we exaggerate the importance
of players on their timelines. But how much does it
matter in this case with Houston if you're looking at it, oh,
Kevin Durant going into you know, age thirty six, age
thirty seven campaigns, I think.
Speaker 2: It matters a lot, and it shouldn't. It doesn't normally,
but this is kind of an extreme case because of
the just Durant is what is what is Durant? I
mean he's been great this like there's just no getting
around it. So like he'll probably be great next year
and maybe the year after that. I don't know, but
I would if it's me, I'd rather have LaMelo, you know,
just if you got to choose which of the two
to bring in all things being equal, I don't know
who would cost more. Actually, that's an interesting question. I'd
rather have the younger guy that can just make just
makes more sense in the timeline. Although I would grant
you like we do overblow like the importance of that.
I want to ask you, like, what percentage chance do
you think Fred van Fleet is on the team next year?
Speaker 1: That's that's funny. I had the same question. I had
a similar question to you, to say, what do you
make of their intentions if they decline versus if they
pick up that team option. So if you if you're
planning on keeping Fred van Fleet, do you think it
makes more sense to decline the team option and try
and work out a smaller salary so that if you're
building a mid season trade, it's just easier to work
while stacking on top of others. And then if you're
not planning on keeping him, doesn't it make sense to
pick up the team option and see if you could
use him as that primary salary anchor that so, so
the signifier for me would be if they pick up
fred van Fleet's team option, I will take that as
evidence that they are going to make a pretty big
trade and that's not just like and if they decline
his team option, I will just assume that is because
they're not talking about like trying to carve out a
bunch of cap space then and go poach free agent X.
So I would take that out design. Okay, they don't
know what's going to happen, and they're letting its spill
into the middle of next year.
Speaker 2: I totally agree. I think if he is back, it
will be on a three year, ninety million dollar deal
or you know, something like that, maybe a two plus one.
If I'm Houston, I'm I really don't want like a
long term commitment here. And if he is, if they do,
just pick it up, like you don't. I don't think
you do that for any reason other than you intend
to move him. I think like that just seems like
the most logical And the reason I made me think
of that is when you know, I agree, it does
make sense for them to see what happens in the playoffs.
But what if what happens in the playoffs is van
Fleet is just good enough as the like driver of
offense to win them I don't know, to make them
maybe not a conference finals thing, but it's like it's
clear that he's very important and he helps them get
to game seven in the second round or something like that,
Like how much is that actually good? Because you didn't
really learn anything new about van Fleet, Like that's kind
of the level you viewed him as being at and
now you know what I mean, Like it would be
if he just was terrible in the playoffs, it would
almost make your thinking, make your planning and decision making easier,
because it's like, Okay, he's not the guy, we need
to use him to get the guy. But if he's
like just pretty good, it leaves you in the position of, okay,
well maybe we can you know, like you more indecision
creeps in if he's just you know, good enough.
Speaker 1: See, and I don't think it would just because we
know the trajectory of aging for smaller guards right for
the most part, And so even if he's spectacular in
the playoffs, you're best player, you win a playoff series,
take it to game seven, to the semi finals. I
think you look at it and say, hey, well this
is fleeting to begin with. The bigger inflection point for
me is what is the internal view of Reed Shepherd?
Speaker 2: Oh well, well, I was gonna say before we get
to that, like thin, I think you're right about So
when you're talking about let's see what happens in the playoffs,
I think what we're really saying is like, how good
do Thompson Shingoon Green? Who am I? Jabari Smith? Like?
How good did they look? You know what I mean? Like,
you're gonna get a lot more insight into what Houston
may or may not do over the summer in terms
of changing the roster based on how they look. As
opposed to van Fleet. It almost doesn't matter, like what
van Fleet does because he's a known commodity and you
have all the built in concerns about his agent curve.
So like those guys are the ones that will like
if if Thompson is suddenly like I don't know, he
shoots thirty eight percent from three, or like he just
runs the offense really well, that that would change things
more than van Like literally anything van Fleet could do.
I think.
Speaker 1: I think if van Fleet is terrible, it might increase
the urgency with which they operate over the offseason because
during his absence twenty eighth and a half court efficiency
and so like. If that, then if he's playing during
the postseason and like, those struggles are still persisting, It's
almost like Fred van Fleet might do more to impact
Houston's future if he's bad or the offense is really
bad in the playoffs versus like the young guys matter
more than anything. But I would just be curre if, like,
if Fred van Fleet is okay or really good and
you have an encouraging playoff picture, I don't think that
we kind of saw this with the Calves this year.
There is value at the trade deadline they went and
got de Andandre Hunter, even though they've been rolling the
entire year. There's still value in trying to build on
a good thing and taking swings. But that would then
circle back to the question. My inflection point would be, well,
what is the internal evaluation of Reed Shepherd not just
the player he's gonna be year five, year six, a
year two, because this team is young and also operating
like within an immediate window as well.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I guess that's related. Like if again that that
first start of the year and he goes for twenty
five and looks good, and km Whitmore goes for twenty
seven and looks good, It's just like, I think we
got to start peeling off the vets here and just
kind of see what's underneath if we let the younger
guys play. Yeah, Van Fleet is bad, you still you
need to have a pretty strong belief in Reaed Shepherd
at least being a rotation guy like regularly next year
to move on from him. And then if you think
more of Shephard than that, like why are you trading
for LaMelo or somebody like that because you just think, well,
maybe Shephard can be not LaMelo but a good starter
like that's I mean, he's drafted third. Overall, you better
still believe that about him.
Speaker 1: I'll pose it to you this way. Do you think
that they will wind up acquiring a new player who
cracks their closing line up next season?
Speaker 2: I think so, And I think they'll do it by
moving van Fleet after picking up that option. I think
I think that's because really like that doesn't you still
got a long runway with Shepherd. So if you go
get the guy that you know, you kind of bring
in ahead of him. If it's we just keep using
LaMelo because I don't have any other great examples that
really strike me as interesting.
Speaker 1: Name anybody, Dallas Dallas is proof that it's valid name
name whatever you want, step.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Darius Garland, just bring him in. Uh yeah, I
think I think so. I don't know what the percentage
chance I put on it. That's why I was asking you,
because if van Fleet's gone you traded him for for
the guy you're talking about, that cracks the closing five
probably and it's like fifty one forty nine though probably
in my estimation, where are you.
Speaker 1: I'd probably be. I think I think it's I think
I'm a little bit higher on like they're gonna go
get somebody like something with Phoenix just feels too obvious
to like it just feels like Kevin rand or Devin
Booker is going to be.
Speaker 2: On the next year.
Speaker 1: But I will say, do you know what would be
the gutsiest move? And I wouldn't hate it to be clear,
you get rid of Fred van Fleet and it's just
the right Reed Shepherd's coming in, like you're just running
it forward with these young guys.
Speaker 2: In that scenario, Are you just declining the team option.
Speaker 1: Unless you could bring because is he gonna want to
come off the bench for you, because you're not going
to demote Jalen Green and then start Van Fleet. I
guess you could bring Jalen Green off the bench. But
if you decide that Reed Shepherd is now the guy
that you're going to start, my guess would be that Fred.
Speaker 2: Van Fleet is leaving right you would, yeah, and you
would trade him for something, and then maybe you're if
you're trading a forty million dollar contract like you're bringing.
If you were doing that, I was thinking that they
declined Fred van Fleet's team option and you're saying, don't
let him go for nothing?
Speaker 1: Is the type deal.
Speaker 2: That's such a crazy I mean, I guess they could,
but that that just doesn't seem to happen anymore where
you just decline an option on a really good player
just because you know, I don't know, we maybe moved
past the whole preserve of the asset mode of thinking.
But I don't know that would be a big example
of going the other way.
Speaker 1: Do they do something like they flip Fred Van, they
pick up the team option, and let's say you flip
them to Detroit and you're taking back Tobias Harris's salary
and so now you've rolled over that into a smaller
salary slot for a less valuable player that you're using
as a That's just the off the cuff example. I'm
not campaigning for a Tobias Harris Fred Van Fleet like swap.
Speaker 2: That's what I'm hearing. That's what I'm hearing is you
want him to come in and play over Jabari Smith.
That's what I'm taking away.
Speaker 1: Next team, the Minnesota Timberwolves. This is we might be
talking about them anyway, but I think it says a
great deal that they tried to enter the Kevin Durant
sweepstakes at the trade deadline per the Athletic. What about you, Yeah,
I mean it, I do.
Speaker 2: I did appreciate we got like just the faintest explanation
or answer to our question of like, so, but how
because that never made sense, like how are they what
are they doing to on board Kevin Durant. It was
basically like they would trade a bunch of other players
away to clear room so they could then aggregate. And
it was like, okay, so this really did.
Speaker 1: Not get Yeah, that's totally easy to do in the
middle of the season, right right.
Speaker 2: It happens all the time. No, I do think. I mean,
at the same time, we both and we both like
everybody knows that some form of like mini reckoning is
coming for them, whether it involves Durant and a big
trade or not, just because of the free agencies that
are staring them down. They're staring down the barrel of
and Julius Randall's player option and how those things interact,
right Like, so whether it's a big trade or not,
like things are gonna something's gonna give here the summer
one way or the other.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I'm I think a lot of it will
depend on what happens in the postseason. Of course. I
just wonder if you're them, are you hoping that Julius
Randall picks up this player option You're hoping he opts out,
like what is the you're the Wolves. We know probably
what Mark Loray and al Trodriguez are like from a financials,
but they'd rather him just opt out and they could
probably them leave. They'll pay naz Reid, maybe they keep Naw.
But what it does feel like that if you want
to make a trade, like a bigger trade, you want
Julius Randall to opt in, because then there's that thirty
million dollar expiring contract to use as the anchor around
which then you flesh out the package.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so this is sort of like the Van Vleet
situation in Houston, and also not like it at all,
because one's a player option and one's a team option.
So my first thought is I would want him to
opt out because then you have a pathway towards keeping
noz Reed and Nikhil Alexander Walker and staying under the
second apron.
Speaker 1: I think.
Speaker 2: I think that's the the quick and dirty math is
like if if Randall ops in, you might get one.
The other one's probably gone and you're gonna be dealing
with like some gnarly constraints. If he leaves, then you
probably can keep both. I'd just rather keep both Alexander
Walker and Read if I can, and.
Speaker 1: Just as to paint a picture. So they enter. Let's
assume with Julius Randall's thirty point nine million dollar player option,
and with nos Reed's fifteen million dollar player option, they're
like they have twelve twelve point eight million under the
second apron and they're basically like right at the first apron.
That's again assuming that those are like that nos Reed
and Julius Randa would opt in, which I think a
lot of people expect nos Reed topped out, which maybe
he does. But what I would caution with the nos
Reid situation is I think he makes a sense on
a bunch of teams, But I feel like we go
through this a lot of the times with big men
and maybe it only takes one. Is always kind of
the saying he's about at he's close to the non
tax payer mid level next year at fifteen, and it's
going up to fourteen point one. I don't necessarily know
that there are going to be teams like those types
of players. To me, always feels like they're more likely
if their team has their bird rights, they're gonna get
paid by their their.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's right. I just look at him
as like the other side of that coin is he's
not a fifteen million dollar player, you know, like he
just objectively, is a better player than that, And if
his representation is canvassing the league, it wouldn't be crazy
to me if somebody out there was like, if you
hit free agency, we're going to find a way to
give you twenty or twenty five a year he.
Speaker 1: Gets like the Hartenstein deal where it's the two plus
the team option on three. Maybe.
Speaker 2: Yeah, So that's part of it. The other side of
it is, like you said, and this is the more
direct parallel to Van Vleet, is like, well, if Randall
ops in, then you've got a thirty one million, thirty
point nine million dollar chunk of salary that's expiring to move.
The counter to that is, if he opts in, it's
a pretty good indication that he's not desired at that
number around the league. So, like, how tradable is he really?
And are you able to net like positive value in
a deal where he's the main outgoing salary without throwing
in Not that the Wolves are you know, exactly like
flush with picks, but like without having to throw in
stuff you'd prefer not to. Uh So it's it's a
real tricky thing. I Well, so I would say I
want him to opt out because I then I just
get to have more control over keeping the two other
guys I care more about. Wuld you rather he opt
out or opt in? And so you could trade him.
Speaker 1: I'm just trying so when I'm looking at who they
might get, it's almost like what I think, I'd rather
him opt out. Because let's say you go after Kevin Durant.
Do you think that Phoenix, knowing that you don't have
a ton of draft equity to include, it'll be somewhat.
First of all, let me ask you this question, would
you do? So I'm gonna assume that you'll you have
to include whoever you draft with that Pistons first round pick?
Would you include that Pistons first round pick Rob Dillingham
and then either Nas reader Jaden McDaniels and a Kevin
Durant trade. If you're Minnesota, there'd have to be more salary,
and that's where Julius Randall perhaps comes in handy. But
is that something you're doing? So what am I.
Speaker 2: Left with in that hypothetical? I still have Conlee de
Vincenzo Edwards.
Speaker 1: Well do you have Conley? He's a free agent. I
guess you could resign him, though YE.
Speaker 2: Doesn't he have one more year at ten million? Or
is he expiring? Did I have Did I look at
the wrong thing?
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I look at the wrong thing. Well you
are correct, another year left? I apologize.
Speaker 2: Okay. So I mean, and then what does it mean
if you have Conley and what is it h thirty
nine season?
Speaker 1: I don't know.
Speaker 2: I'm just trying to think, like, who's still around? And
so I've got to lose probably either McDaniels or read
for Durant. So basically your cores go Bart Edwards, Durant,
de Vincenzo. Maybe Noa's still there, Terrence Shannon's been really
good lately. I think I probably do it because it's
just the kind of you're trading. You're just getting the floor,
just the biggest name, the biggest star there, and maybe
that's what Minnesota needs more than like a bunch of
guys that don't fit great together. It's not an easy call,
but I think I probably do it.
Speaker 1: I think in a vacuum you want Randall then to
opt in to keep the kill. I think it just
makes it easier. You might need to rope in a
third team to where someone else is taking on money,
depending on what Phoenix financial situation is looking like after
this deal. But if you're going after someone who's making
as much as Durant, and I think even if you're not,
I guess you probably I default to you want Randall
to opt in to have that expiring chip. But when
you don't have a ton of touch stuff to attach
in Dick equity, the value going out becomes the players.
And so if you're Minnesota, it's let's say you need
to trade. I don't know what the salary player is.
But if you're trading McDaniels or nas Reed is just
the primary anchor and a deal, what is still having
Julius Randall actually do for you like Julius Randall, plus
that pistons pick get you who. So if you're really
trying to go in on a star who's looking on
his way out, and you know that you're gonna get them,
I'll say at a discounted rate relative to what they're
worth on the court, because they're older, or they want
to come to you and play with aunt whatever, you
probably want Julius Randall to opt in. But if you're
targeting just rotational upgrades that are making less than Julius Randall,
or like, I don't know that you want as Minnesota.
I don't know that. And Julius Rondlu, by the way,
has not been terrible this year. I just don't think
that he's a fit for this roster moving forward. I
guess you could say you want to roll over this
salary slot, but then you need to believe that again
that what you have. Basically, I would say that pissed
it because if you attach Rob Dillingham to Julius Randall,
you better hope you're like really like that's the Kevin
Durant type of scenario. You better hope you're getting someone
really good because Dillingham is supposed to be a huge
part of your long term And so that's where I'm
talking to myself in a circle. But that's where I'm
struggling with the Julius Randall element of it all.
Speaker 2: It's a really it's really hard. I think it's not
clear that that I think at the bottom of it,
it's not clear that he at thirty point nine million
dollars in expiring salary is actually like a positive asset,
like as far as you know, I guess, if it
keeps you from having to give up more guys in
a in a two or three for one kind of trade,
then maybe that's valuable. But I think the stuff you
have to add into the deal because it's Randal and
he's not super desirable because look, the fit issues are
going to follow him wherever he goes, Like he's kind
of defined by fit issues, like that's just what his
game has been. So maybe maybe that means you're having
to give up more young pieces that you don't want
to because he's the main It's just it's a thorny thing.
I really don't know. That's why I'm almost like, if
he just opts out, I don't have to worry about it.
If I'm the Wolves, you know, I don't have to
think about it anymore.
Speaker 1: Well do you consider doing and this would matter more
for mid season purposes, but like bring him back at
three years for sixty million?
Speaker 2: I don't think so. I just I'm mostly I've just
been low on Randal as like a clean fit on
a good team for a long time. I just I
think maybe that's too simple, but that's where I'd be
on it.
Speaker 1: I do think that regardless of what kind of happens
with Randal, I would expect them to do something semi
significant if they get bounced in the first round or
the play in.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, just the fact that they're where they're
going to be entering the playoffs this year versus last year,
like suggests that changes are coming.
Speaker 1: Our next team on the docket is the Philadelpia seventy six.
There is underwent some changes last year. But well, I
I mean, it's interesting because there's a chance that they
just don't do It's they maybe they keep their own
pick and then they just roll forward that But I
would think just given the timeline, if you assumeing Beid's
gonna be healthy next year and you know you're not
gonna move him, you're almost obligated to continue exploring what
can you get for these as like the first round
picks that you have. But do you see a scenario
in which they go the other way if let's say
they do keep their own pick, which I think so
I was breaking down the numbers on just like what
are the odds that they're keeping their pick and it
looks like they'll fall in the they could maybe get
to the fifth worst record, in which case they would
have a sixty four percent chance. I believe of keeping
their pick if they stay where they are, it's like
a forty percent chance or forty six.
Speaker 2: I think, yeah, forty six.
Speaker 1: But then if you you know, because they're involved with
the nets and the the bulls as well, like, you
could also just see them drop to thirty four point
five percent chance of keeping their pick or even lower
than that. But I didn't mean to get us hung
up on those details. If they do keep their own pick,
do you see any scenario which is, well, let's just
can we get anything for Embiid, get anything for Paul George,
and we'll we'll take the long view with Jared McCain
this pick and a tire's Maxie.
Speaker 2: It doesn't feel like a Daryl Morey approach because it
just history suggests that he will try to turn it,
won't just go Maxie and young guys and picks, like
I don't. I feel like he'll be on the hunt
for like, well, who's someone out there? The championship equity thing, like,
who's someone out there we could turn embiid in the
pick into that gives us a real, you know, decent
crack at it, like and also like, you know, even
if I just like, where what do they where can
they send Embiid that's gonna bring? Like what do you
get for Joel Embiid, Like I don't. I have no idea,
like what the pick and player packages coming back for
him would be right now? And like, so there obviously
stuff has to change, I think because I'm so hung
up on Like I just don't think there's any way
to get to gauge what Embid is worth. And I
don't think there's a haul out there for him, Like
that's the only thing I am fairly certain of at
the moment. As you're not getting the four unprotected firsts
and whatever coming back, it's just gonna have to be
remaking the supporting cast again, like Yabuseles a free agent.
Uber and Drummond and Gordon you know aren't all super important,
but they have player options. I don't think you can
trade Paul George for value, So you're just I think
this team will look different, but it will be the
supporting cast again. I just think that seems like the
most likely set of changes to me. Do you agree
because I just don't, or do you see, Like how
do you get how do you flip Embiid and or
George for like anything. I just don't know what's out there.
Speaker 1: I would be I think someone would give you, let's
say that over under on one point five first round
picks you'd get for Joel and Beat over the offseason
if he moved him. I think it's now I will
let's throw this number out there. He is owed two
hundred and forty eight point one million dollars over the
next four years with zero injury protections.
Speaker 2: That's why that that's why I think I lean. I
lean first of all, like they can't trade him at all,
so I guess I have to go under. Uh, just
because who's who's taking that on now? If you said
a year from now and like maybe at this point
in twenty twenty six and Beat has played sixty games
already or whatever, I mean, that's a lot. If they
say he's played fifty games and looks not an MVP,
but is you know, fringy all NBA? Okay, maybe, but
like right now, with all the uncertainty, like we don't
even know what kind of surgery he's gonna have, Like
what team out there over the summer, with no real
visibility into how he's recovering, is gonna give up anything
for him with all that money on the deal.
Speaker 1: I just feel like there's always a team. I'm just
I'm just gonna.
Speaker 2: Go over taking the field I'm saying impossible. So I
like your odds, but.
Speaker 1: Still I just one point five first round picks is
kind of such a low bar to clear, especially if
one of them isn't great or the equivalent. So I'll
go over. But that is I mean, there's a chance
because of the player he could still be. I think
you'd still put Oh, like Bradley, Pe'll have you. No
trade clause is worse. That just might be one of
the worst contracts in the NBA. What I do think
is not more fascinating but also fascinating is if you
were to move Paul George three years left on his
max deal, are you getting first round equity for And
it's not. Look Paul George has his best year, But
like I think Paul George can still be a useful player,
and it's more scalable than a lot of other well
at least in theory than a lot of other stars.
He's willing to take podcast hiatus to contribute to championship pushes.
I think that might peak the attention of some contenders.
Speaker 2: No, at least he has his priorities, right, I don't know, Like,
don't you feel like Paul George is like dangerously close
to being some that like you're paying to get off of.
I mean it's like given his age, given the it's
some injuries every year, declining production, Like I just I don't.
And I think the other aspect of this is all
the second Apron stuff and all the new CBA stuff,
and in conjunction with like looking at how stuck Phoenix
is granted beelds no trade clause is a huge part
of that, and the looming specter in Boston of like
what do we when do we break this up? Because
it costs, Like I think a contract like George's, even
if he's like a solid starter teams are like I
don't want that, Like we can't build a real team
anymore if we have a guy making the max that
either isn't healthy or isn't like a clear superstar.
Speaker 1: So if you were let's just say you were Brooklyn,
if the Sixers just offered to put Paul George into
your cap space, you wouldn't do it.
Speaker 2: Well, that's different than like getting positive stuff back, Like
if I'm Brooklyn. I do that because I want the
pixel you were.
Speaker 1: Saying, he's dangerously close having to include things to get off.
So I'm asking, what.
Speaker 2: Is I see? Well, Brooklyn's a pretty good exception to that.
I think in general, if I'm the point I'm trying
to make poorly is that I think, like all things
being equal, George is not necessary. George is close to
being someone that I don't think you get positive value
for in a trade. But if you're dumping him somewhere
and attaching picks and that team doesn't care about like
what a ridiculous disconnector is between his salary and his production,
then that's different. But like, if you're Brooklyn, the only
reason you want Paul George is because you might get
picks attached to him, right, Like that's that's that's a
different kind of acquisition.
Speaker 1: I still think that maybe I'm just if I entered
my era of just like, oh, these are the players
that I kind of grew up on, and so I
just assume they're still gonna be good round, Like I
give up a first round pick for George or is
it even like I'm not saying I give him a
first round pick here. But if you were Detroit and
there's like to buy Harris and like you're just feeling
like you're not giving up, Like, what would you do
Tobias Harris and Ron Holland for Paul George If you're
Detroit and he wants to be in Detroit, Let's say.
Speaker 2: Hmm, yeah, I think you probably have to do that.
But like Harris is a bad contract, so it's inspiring.
Speaker 1: It'd be funny to see him back in Philly though.
Speaker 2: That's true. Yeah, no, I think maybe I've gone too
harsh on it, but I just I I in trying
to think about how the Sixers might remake themselves. I struggle. So, like,
if you're the Sixers, do you have any interest in
getting Tobias Harris and Ron Holland for Paul George.
Speaker 1: Only if you're looking to get if you think his contract, well,
let's say you could win the draft lottery have Cooper
flag And to say, okay, like this is all of
a sudden, a wholesale reset, I do think failing that
what you said at the top of the Sixers part
is I mean, I mean you also have to consider
that there we're not just talking about this, Okay, see
pick commitment, so like that could spill it to if
they keep their pick, that then just spills into next
year and is loosely protected. They also owe that pick
to Brooklyn in twenty twenty seven, so they're almost obligated
to continue going for it. I don't think you can
map out a path where you're still trying to be
competitive and you're trading Joelle Embiid, that's for sure, because
I guess it comes down to if you think he's
never gonna play again, but I haven't seen something nap
leak out there, You're not gonna get rid of Maxie
in that case, And so then it comes down to
could you attach things? Could you attach stuff to Paul
George and enter the Kevin Durant sweep stakes? Does that
do anything for you? I don't think you would have enough,
is Paul George. Like I'm trying to think of what
would be the next disgruntled player, Like if Phoenix made
Devin Booker available, and there for some reason, keeping Kevin
Durant like Paul George and the picks you have aren't
gonna get you Devin Booker probably, So I don't even
know how you upgrade my point would be, how do
you put yourself in a better situation by trading Paul George.
Speaker 2: I don't know. That's the thing. It's like EMBIID where
you are just sort of stuck and you got to
see if this thing works next year and you build
around the margins, you just you know, continue rebuilding the
supporting cast year over year.
Speaker 1: One thing I kind of thought of. I don't think
Sacramento would necessarily be involved in this, but like, if
would you rather have as the Sixers, would you still
rather have Paul George over Zach Lavine?
Speaker 2: Oh? Man, if I'm the Kings, I would definitely rather
have George than Levine. So I guess there's that's putting
the lie in my all in Sacramento for the most part,
I don't know. Yeah, I just they got enough guys
that can score and not make good decisions. I think.
I think if I'm the Sixers, I don't love I
don't love MAXI McCain Levine as my defensive like one
to two combos, It's yeah, I don't know. That's a
tough one.
Speaker 1: I have another one too. This I'm just throwing out
these up. Paul George or Brandon Ingram substantially.
Speaker 2: Younger than Paul and cheaper, I guess.
Speaker 1: And to that end, if you were Toronto, which you could,
like if if the Sixers were just like, we will
give you Paul George and the Quippers pick for brandon
Ingram or something, you pounce on that, right, I.
Speaker 2: Think so, yeah, I think I think you you would
because at.
Speaker 1: That point, I think even if brand Ingram's an upgrade,
you're the Sixers, you're saying, no, like, what are we
kind of doing here? That's the spot they're in. I
think you phrased it this way, right. You think it's
gonna happen with the supporting cast where maybe they end
up getting someone who's a part of their closing lineup,
but it's gonna be replacing, like, not any member of
the Big Three. It's gonna be like kind of filling
that out.
Speaker 2: Kelly Ubrey gets, you know, replaced by somebody that's in
that range.
Speaker 1: Maybe I would be curious, though, how good of a
player they could get with the assets they have independent
of the Big Three, because they have picks. If they
keep this year's pick. We haven't even thought about that.
If you keep this year's pick and you have a
top six selection. You attach that to some of the
other money on your books. You have other picture of
Jared McCain now getting to salary and then working within
the Aprons could maybe get difficult, but that's just like
a real you're not I don't know that you're winning
any sweep stakes, especially with the salary matching limitations, but
you could in fury do something splashy there.
Speaker 2: That's you know, that is an interesting point though, Like
they're extremely top heavy salary wise, and so the only
the fourth so you take out so next year fifty
five for MBID, fifty two for Paul George, thirty eight
for MAXI. The next biggest salary that's that is guaranteed
to be on the books barring a trade is McCain
at four point two million. Like that's just like the
gap between so their mid tier salaries is like don't exist.
They don't they don't have anybody.
Speaker 1: You almost have to pick up unless you're really worried
about Apron space. But I think as of now they're
projected to be eighteen point six million beneath the first Apron.
Like you almost have to kelly your bridge when you're
staying on this team because or it's a play. Is
his a player option?
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, yeah, to leave you can decline it though,
And they got some worked out where it's like three
three for forty five or so, you know, something like that.
Speaker 1: So they might even be in a situation where they're
going to do anything. We looked at it like they
were overturning their roster a lot la saw season. It's oh,
it'll happen in the middle of the season when these
contracts they either just signed or renegotiated after a player
opt out are then eligible to be traded.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, they're in a weird spot. I mean, for
every possible reason.
Speaker 1: The next team, the Phoenix Suns. Grant I there were
Sham's just saying that Kevin Durant and the Sons are
going to work together finding human trade kind of guarantees
that they're going to look a lot different next year.
Speaker 2: Yeah, fair enough. They might have a new coach. That
might be another thing. Although if Durance, well, if Durance gone,
books are still there.
Speaker 1: Colin CASEPTI made it very clear that he's trying to
save Mike Wuinnenholzer's job. Sorry.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so like we I don't know, do you want
to do the like, where does Durant make sense right now?
Speaker 1: I mean I did it with mort and we talked
about a little bit with the Rockets. Is there any
team that stands out as they should be in on Actually?
Can I ask you this? I did talk about it
with moret but forget the other moving parts involved. But
if it's a one for one Jimmy Butler for Kevin
Durant swap sort of set up, are you doing that
as the Warriors?
Speaker 2: Man? I think Durant is still a better player, But whatever,
whatever is happening because Jimmy Butler is there is like
kind of real and and he hasn't even been that
good honestly, Like he's I've thought caught myself thinking he
looks hurt or he's just like not aggressive, won't look
at the basket, but he's still just.
Speaker 1: Owning for jumpers. But like he's you've seen some of
like the like getting out and transit like off the
ball and like getting to the basket there. But then
it does feel like he's settling at points.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, it just which is to say, like maybe
he's gonna be even better, although like when you're thirty five,
that's always like a risky thing to assume.
Speaker 1: They are grant. They're like a plus twenty five when
he plays without Steph though, they're just that's there's like
weird magic, there's like fairy dust.
Speaker 2: I don't know what it is. Like he just showed
up and sprinkled it on everybody, and somehow him being
there means everybody else plays better. Like I don't know,
maybe that's just the mark of a really great player.
Speaker 1: I would still maybe aura is infectious and that's.
Speaker 2: You know, what we're not accounting for is maybe this
is all because of Quinton Post and Jimmy Butler's got
nothing to do with it. Yeah, I don't know that
I would have like a, I would need some therapy,
I think to really give you a concrete answer on
during I think I would lean like, yeah, like Durant better,
but then I would immediately regret it.
Speaker 1: The most compelling argument I think for it is you
believe that Jonathan Kaminga replaces enough of the foul drawing,
rim pressure stuff from Jimmy Butler. Yeah, that's where then
his fit with Kevin Durant is just way more intuitive.
But I would still need to I mean to know,
but I think if Jonathan Minga comes back and shows
you that he can play an offense as part of
this larger ecosystem, but more importantly, that he's going to
be a real defensive body. Yeah, that when I would
look at it and okay, all right, Jonathan Aminga is
not Jimmy Butler. But can he approximate let's just say,
even seventy to eighty percent of Jimmy. But if you
believe he could do that, then I think that that
would be the compelling argument for me.
Speaker 2: Any Yeah, I mean, he's gonna he's gonna give you
zero percent of like the Butler and tangibles. But I'm
just glad to hear you say that Jonathan Kaminga is
the most important player on the Warriors. I'm glad you
finally came around. What besides KDB. It's like Miami is
another KD one. That's like, okay, sure it could be that.
Speaker 1: Here isn't the real question. You're the Suns. Let's let's
say Houston's off the table and you can't get your
own picks back. What are you then targeting into Kevin
Durant trade? And based on the report, I mean, here
are a couple things. Does moving Kevin Durant make it
more likely that Bradley Beal will open the scope of
his no trade clause?
Speaker 2: I don't. I think the only thing that makes him
likelier to waive the no trade clause is just it
not being the middle of the season. I don't think so,
so you know what I mean, like, oh, he's maybe
it won't up end his life as much if he
can do this in the offseason, like versus in February,
which he was like, I'm out. I don't think what
happens with Durant changes a lot for Beale. I guess
unless you're gonna say, like, well, if Durant's gone, then
the Sons aren't gonna win, so he's gonna want to leave. Well,
the Sun's aren't winning now and they were trying desperately
to trade him, and he didn't want to leave. So
I don't think that has a huge amount of sway.
Speaker 1: And honestly, if he was gonna be more like it
to wave his no trade clause, you'd probably prefer to
Can we still figure out something to move him and
keep Durant? The bigger question is all the reporting phn
X Sports is Gerald borge I believe so that everything
he has heard is that Devin Booker doesn't want to leave,
the Sons will never trade him unless he asks route.
If you're Devin Booker and Kevin Durank gets traded infory,
aren't you more likely to then consider asking for out
unless you look at the return and say, I believe
read it in the right direction, And then that the
question then becomes what does a better job of selling
Devin Booker on your future? Prioritizing picks, especially if they're
not your own, or is it no, we need to
get like real fucking talent in here where you're thinking,
let's use Minnesota as an example, like could Phoenix be
intrigued by well, let's try and get Go Bear, Like
would you do Go Bear and Jade McDaniels and then figure
out how to make the money work from there. For
Kevin Durant, if you're Minnesota.
Speaker 2: I think if you're maybe, yeah, I was thinking more
of from Phoenix's perspective, Like it does feel like that's
the type of offer, So like I just I don't
know why they came into my head, but it's like, uh, Atlanta,
that not that Durant wants to go there. But it's
like I'm trying to think of teams that might be
able to give you back like two and a half
interesting starters, maybe one of whom is like young and
then a pit you know, so it's like Jalen Johnson
and Dyson Daniels and whatever for Durant, Like I don't
know if Atlanta does that one, probably not, but like
that kind of package, it's like the four first rounders thing,
like if you're Phoenix, I guess, okay, that's good, but
like you're still taking back salary unless you're just dumping
him I don't know where or something Brooklyn, which means
that'd be fun. So so yeah, like it's gotta be
a couple starters and then maybe that's what Booker, Like
Booker is not gonna care if you get first round
picks at the back half of this decade, like he's
gonna if you want him to stay, I think you
do need to just get a couple guys in there
that he can look at the roster and be like
there's a case to be made that now we have
a chance to just be better. Like that that should
be the only thing that matters to him right.
Speaker 1: Right, And I think you also, Kevin Durrant is your
only chance at really doing that because Bradley Beals we
mentioned the no trade calluse just doesn't have a ton
of value. And because Phoenix, at least as of I
guess next year, they projected to be where are they
apron wise? I'm seeing that they're, well, this can't like
you're still gonna be tethered to like these financial constraints
and so you're not to be able to Okay, we
got picks, but now let's go consolidate and get more
talent in here. So Kevin Durant' is like your best
chance to break I guess it up and say, Okay,
we got two players who maybe they're non stars, but
they're gonna deepen the rotation, maybe make us a more
balanced team and where we view ourselves as being immediately competitive.
And I just don't know, you know, you say, could
we get two starters from somebody? I just don't know
what team is giving you two? Like Atlanta would be interesting,
but does Kevin Durant want to go there? And they
feel like they're kind of headed in the opposite direction
of that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, I it seems like Miami Golden is just
like Minnesota. Maybe I have a hard time getting beyond
teams that we've actually heard, like at least whispered to
have been like landing spots for him, just because of
all the reasons you mentioned.
Speaker 1: Do you think that he would be a candidate to
go the basketball sick o route? And if it was
just like Orlando really wanted him, he's kind of looking
He's like, oh, they got Polo and Franz there. Now
we got these three guys that are just six foot ten,
And could you see him thinking like, Yeah, I feel
like he's the type of player that would thank you.
Speaker 2: I know you're gonna say Oklahoma City, but just just
go back and just win a title that he couldn't
win before. Yeah, I don't he's I mean, news flash, Durance,
it's hard to it's hard to figure out what Durant
wants in a team. So, I mean, I don't know
about Orlando. Yeah, Like I guess, I guess you could
see him just kind of looking at the landscape in
so far as he's got control over this and saying
like where where seems like the most fun place to play?
But yeah, I don't know. I don't have a good
I don't think anybody has a good gauge on like
what he's necessarily after at this point.
Speaker 1: Do you think he's in Phoenix at the start of
next season.
Speaker 2: No way.
Speaker 1: Do you think Devin Booker is in Phoenix at the
start of the next season.
Speaker 2: Yes, But then Booker is immediately just a number one
on the like Where's he gonna go? Trade trade discussion rankings.
Speaker 1: The next team on our board the Portland Trailblazers, which
is kind of the team that I think would fall under. Okay,
they're gonna look at moving Jeremy Grant, Deandre's an expiring contract,
and Frey Simons is an expiring contract. But if they
also sort of been good enough for long enough. They
have the fifth best defense in the league since January first,
and they're comfortably over five hundred during that span. I
don't know how much value we assigned to that. I
think it's a big deal that. Okay, while when they've
been healthy, you could say the minutes of we've still
seen too much Jeremy Grant, too much Ayton, but everybody
else that's driving this for the most part, is part
of the long term program. They're gonna have a lottery
pick this year and all, although they are close to
the play in, but they're not gonna come out of
the plane if they're even if they make it. But
could you see them just we saw it a little
bit with the Denni Avdia trade where it's like, we'll
include like future picks to get someone that we think
fits like aligned with where we're going and makes us
immediately better. And if they continue to finish the season
on this heater, and knowing you look at Shandon Sharp
feels almost I guess Scoots their biggest mystery box technically,
but Shade and Sharp between him Donovan Clinkin to Mahdi
Kamara Denny Avya, it's like, well, do we just have
our base right here and then if we want to
go out, we have other salaries, we have picks. We
want to go out and maybe get somebody to make
us Remember we were trying to spot, well, who's that
next team up. I think it's a leap a few
bridges too far to say it's the Blazers, But could
they think in terms of the mindset, especially because it
feels like they've been caught in this rebuild for longer
than they actually have because of how the Damien Lillard
era was, you know, mediocre towards the end.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I really like the Blazers, Like I really think,
you know, I have less hesitation about saying or I
just like I feel really good about their core because
those five young guys you mentioned, just like, I like
that could just be your start scoot uh sharp kamara
avdya klinging like.
Speaker 1: You're pregnant, could be insane.
Speaker 2: I feel pretty good about that, Like the guy. Everybody's
kind of got their niche like you do. You've a
lot of the boxes checked that you'd want and like
a functional like wealth put together like starting slash closing unit.
It's not perfect, but like everybody is good and promising
and like should get better. I don't know, maybe Abdias
already kind of topped out, but even he's had stretches
where he's looked better this year. So the thing I
look at most with Portland and trying to gauge like
what their options are and how they can improve is
is so they're just between eight and Simon's and Robert
Williams the third those are all going to be on
expiring deals in twenty five, twenty six, And the thing
that I'm kind of stuck on is is it a
mistake that they have let all that held on to
all three of these guys through the deadline and can
go into next year with them as expirings, because like,
as trade chips, are they less valuable because they'll be
you know, half season rentals if they trade them next year?
Are they somehow more valuable to be traded? This offs?
Speaker 1: Like?
Speaker 2: Did are they timing this right? Because if you're of
the opinion that like you could just say, we got
to get these guys like out of the way, I'm
excluding Grant because he's on the books for so many
more years and dollars. But like between Simons Aden and
Robert Williams a third, like did they air in not
moving them sooner? And have they kind of put themselves
in a position where now it's like you can't really
expect to get anything to bolster the young core you
have by moving them. It's more just like we're dumping
these guys onto a team that wants them for three
months and then has to deal with their free agency.
Speaker 1: So I actually don't think they Upon more reflection, Jeremy
Grant's the move that I thought, just like, not even
just get the contract off the books, but just like
you have a lot of players that can fill like
the minutes that he's going to play. Yeah, Simons was
the standalone asset to me that if you wanted to
move him and get picks back, you probably missed the
window to maximot top that out. However, he's young enough
and so important enough to your spacing that I kind
of don't mind. And with eight and I think he's
more valuable as an expiring cont. I just don't think
there was a ton of value around the league for
him as a like, I don't think anyone who's trading
for him is doing so other than because he either
helps make the math work or they're sending out a
longer term deal that they don't want anymore. So expiring
is better. And with Robert Williams a third, I think
it's kind of a wash. If you weren't gonna if
the offers for him were like two or three seconds
this year, I think you probably get two or three
seconds or him over the offseason or next season, unless
he's even more hurt. And then even if he is,
you missed the boat on seconds, I like eighton. I
think like that's and that's where I was almost coming
at this from, is isn't there a possibility that they
look at let's say that Jeremy Grant and deandret and
salary slots, is, well, what can we attach to X
to maybe make our team better? Like, I don't think
that's a path that people have considered with the Blazers.
I also want to I do want to ask you
because this has been and it does I think it
kind of informs this entire discussion with will they look
a lot different next year? Do you think they're making
an error by not tanking or And because I struggle
with that question, I've seen it fvoted a lot. What
would tanking look like for this team when you have
if you started to rank their most impactful players this season,
I think a bunch of those guys you would want
on the roster moving forward? And so what does tank like?
If tanking looks like we've got to shut down Scoot
and Tamani Kamara, that's like, all right.
Speaker 2: No, that's the problem. The reverse of it is how
I was gonna like kind of try to explain it
is like the guys that you would play more in
order to tank are good and so and young and so,
like you're not like you could play Scoot and Sharp
and Clinging and all the five guys we mentioned. You
can play those guys more. The problem is, like Clinging
really helps the defense, like he's a positive force, and
like Scoot has played great, and maybe that changes if
you're spending a much more time against first units with
some of these guys. But like, I really don't. I
don't think they're equipped to tank like you could unless
you go full bore and you're just like, hey, everybody's
hurt and we're gonna play just two way guys and whatever.
So I think like normally we would be just like,
what are you guys doing. You're gonna you're stuck in
the middle. This feels different. This isn't a Chicago Bulls
or Sacramento Kings middle. It's like they're in the middle.
But that's because their young players have been good enough
to drive them up to that point from the bottom,
and the momentum is, you know, continuing upward. So like,
I don't think it's a mistake to not tank. I
think you could also say, like they kind of have
three guys at least that are the cornerstone types you
would tank for or like at least you know, promising enough.
So yeah, if they were, if they'd started out one
and twenty, then yeah, no matter what else happens, you
should have tanked. But they just they're too good. Their
young players are too good. And that's a that's a
great problem, right, that's what you want.
Speaker 1: I think you look at it and say, unless they
don't believe and I still think Scoot is the most likely,
but that none of their young guys can be their
tenth poll of the future, then that that's when it
becomes a mistake if you just believe that, no, it
can't be Scoot, and maybe it can't be, but as
of right now, the way he's played this season, no,
the possible, the door is open, then it absolutely could
be him. I think he's their best shot at it.
And so because you have him, it's not you know,
you use the bulls. It's not that situation where they
still don't have that directional building block. And so that's
why I'm ultimately okay with where they are. And then
also I mean repeating myself here, it's what I just
don't know what tanking would look like for this.
Speaker 2: How do you do it?
Speaker 1: Like, if you start playing dwap reach, you're probably just
gonna win more games.
Speaker 2: We know that that's given.
Speaker 1: Do you think they'll look that. I think they will
move eight and Simons or like at least one of
those guys or Grant this offseason. And I would just
be curious if it's Simons or even if it's eight,
and just because he's expiring, I can view it through
the lens of oh, maybe they're taking back a bad
contract and that's how they're getting picks or prospects. If
it's Grant, I'm almost assuming that they're kind of doing
the Deniavvia thing where we're attaching stuff and we're trying
to make ourselves better.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think so. I think of those four, we'll
throw Grant in there with Simon's and Aiden and why
can't I ever remember and I can never remember the
third guy. I'd say, like at least two of them
will be gone. I think over the summer would be
my guess.
Speaker 1: I'll take over one point five. I like that one,
the Orlando Magic. This it feels counterintuitive to throw them
here because they're not a team that is proud of themselves.
I'm making big changes, but they're also a team that,
even amid all the injuries, bummer about the Jayleen Sugs news,
you'll look at them and it's all right, we know
what they need on offense ten times over. They this
is the offseason, they have to do something to address it, right.
Speaker 2: I'm trying to think of because they feel like they've
been this team for a long time where it's just
like we all see it. What can we please do something?
I'm trying to think of. Can you think of another
team that with like a positional or like a certain
satistical deficiency just let it ride for this long? Who
comes to mind.
Speaker 1: Memphis in the post Rudy gay Wing era.
Speaker 2: Oh wow, you're bringing it back. Yeah, that's true. They
have not had well Zion Williams, Dan, how dare you?
Speaker 1: Uh look, I was in the bag for Zion Williams.
Speaker 2: I can't even or yeah, that's a good one.
Speaker 1: I'm trying.
Speaker 2: I mean, like, I feel like we talked a lot
about the Pelican Center, uh the last offseason, but.
Speaker 1: Like like they've had they've had Steven Adams and Jonas
found like those were real centers.
Speaker 2: Them not having a stretch center maybe isn't is a
comparable thing. Yeah, so so Orlando clearly needs just shooting,
someone to push the pace, a guard that runs out
like all that that kind of thing. Do you when
you look at the roster as they have it now,
do you just constantly find yourself looking to like I
would like to peel off like one or two defensive
minded big guys and turn them into a shooter or
like a pace pushing guard. Like and so you got
John Isaac, that is like just I know his contract
is completely bizarre, three non guaranteed years after next year,
so fifteen million next year and then the next three
after that or like so yeah, sure we could spare
Jonathan Isaac if we're the magic right, I assume Wendell
Carter has ten, eighteen and nineteen million in the next
three years. Like, yeah, I guess you can move him.
But like, they just don't do it. They don't do
they don't make that move. So we're kind of in
the wishful thinking section I think right now.
Speaker 1: Right, and what also was complicated is that organizationally, and
including with Jamal Moseley, it doesn't even seem like So
let's say you get a player and granted they don't
necessarily have this player right now, but if you get
a player who's good enough or that we deem is
good enough, unlet's use Anthony Simons as an example. Not
necessarily he's not a floor general, but because you are
Franz and Paula like, I don't even know if they
need to skew that way entirely, But are you gonna
play him enough? Because he's a deficiency on defense And
it seems like this team has glombed onto the idea
that it was ever on the floor needs to be
a plus defender. And if all you had were negative
defenders on the team, I might agree with you. But
all you have are those defensive dudes. And are they
gonna be too specific in say that player who we acquire,
it like they need to be good on defense too,
which is then restricting their pool even further because couldn't
wouldn't you think? Because I'm using these two players as
an example because I don't think it would cost that. Yeah,
it'd be cool to see LaMelo Ball on this team,
but they don't seem the Magic are not a squad
that even if Flamelo Ball was available, even if he
said I want to play in Orlando. I don't feel
like that they would include like go all in to
that extent, But like, don't you think like a Signmon's
or a Kobe White would make a world of difference
for this team? And then I find myself saying, do
I trust that they're gonna be given the like or
as soon as they just get blown by or they
get screened off, that they're gonna be benched and like
they're gonna be marginalized a little bit. Maybe they just
haven't had the player, Like using Jet Howard as the
analog just isn't fair because Jet Howard. Yeah, but I
do wonder if they're too caught up on the idea
that they need to have all these rangy or just
plus defenders on the court at all times, to where
even kind of when they were at their most injured,
it's like, well, we would rather see like Tristan to
silver ball handling reps than really try and like lean
into any sort of like real offensive utility here. And
that's what I guess worries me or confuses me.
Speaker 2: I think I think the like the philosophical discussion Orlando
needs to have about can we onboard someone who is
not a plus defender? Would would have to happen like
at you know, preceding the acquisition of that player, as
opposed to after you've gotten him and then realizing, oh,
he's not a plus defender, so we'll bench him. It's
like if you on if you bring in Anthony Simons,
if the Magic do that, they have to already be conceding,
like okay, we're gonna bend a little bit and not
require that he'd be a shutdown defender because like if
you go get Anthony Simons and then you don't play
him because he's not a shutdown defender, it's like good point,
fellas you knew, like this was all well understood, Like
that's just our Malik Monk or whoever you want it
to be, LaMelo. It's like, no, no, we all understand
who they are. You don't get to trade for them
and then like stick to your guns culturally and say
you can't play because you don't defend. It's like no,
if you go get the guy, you sort of have
to let him do him and just and then have
trust in the culture and the priorities that you've built
like that, the other four guys are gonna be good defenders,
so we can so we're good. Like you can, like
think how many teams can say they always really good
teams always have five good defenders on the floor, like
the twenty five the twenty four to twenty five Celtics,
or I mean, like twenty three twenty four Celtics was
one that comes to mind. But like even the great
Nuggets teams that won a title, like Jamal Murray's not
a good defender, so you had one Jokic like figured
out how to defend.
Speaker 1: But it's like Jamal Murray can hit a level defensively
where Orlando I could see trading for.
Speaker 2: Him and say he too, like he's got good snize.
That's another thing. But like you know what I mean,
I mean, like generally speaking, you're gonna put somebody in
your closing lineup that's not like Drew Holiday, like you're
you know prime Drew Holiday, Like somebody's gonna be but
even he was buried at the start of the season too,
so they maybe Really what we're drilling down on is
like Orlando just has to start making concessions and say,
if we want to win. We're gonna need to score,
and to do that, we need to like relax our
requirements on how good a defender you are to play
for us?
Speaker 1: Do you think that this is the off season they'll
actually get there?
Speaker 2: It got it fucking better be like it doesn't have
to be like how much longer do you get to
keep the same strengths and weaknesses and not change it
before we all just look at it like what do
you and say what are you doing?
Speaker 1: Uh? Four oh six pm Eastern Time, March fifth, twenty
twenty five. Grant gave it impassion to f Bob about
the Orlando Magic. I think that's the closest we've seen
him to getting irate on this podcast.
Speaker 2: Agree right, like they have it just it has to happen.
Speaker 1: If it doesn't, it's well, don't they have built in
cover to say we can't look at all these injuries
like Jae and Thugs, Palaban, Carol friends, I don't have
played ninety seven minutes together this season. They can in
theory look to that and say, well, we'll get there,
like we just haven't seen enough of them together.
Speaker 2: Here's the other thing is is sometimes like who I forget?
Who I was talking about this. So it's like Mark
Jackson got the Warriors to defend really well and was
just inflexible and not creative and kind of backward and
a lot of his other you know, coaching tendencies, Like
so Orlando. If Orlando goes and gets an offensive player
or two and like stylistically they don't change, then it's
kind of on Moseley because then it becomes like this
coach coach is one way, and we might need someone
different to get us to the next to be our
like Steve Kerr, that's that looks at the roster and
says like, well, here's how it should go, and like
everything clicks. I think, like we may not be that far.
We all agree. Jamal Moseley's like a hell of a
defensive coach and like has got Orlando to play in
a way that most teams don't from like an effort
standpoint and like that whole thing that's hard to do.
But if he gets offensive players and they don't pick
up the pace and shoot and make more threes than like,
I don't know that that's the next conversation we might
have to have.
Speaker 1: I'm gonna will it into existence by saying this is
the summer they do it. They if it's not a
floor general type, it's someone who can handle the ball,
make shots from the perimeter that'll be in their closing lineup.
That this is the summer that Orlando's gonna go get
that player.
Speaker 2: Fervently, hope.
Speaker 1: So now we get to talk about the Sacramento Kings,
who I'm not even sure they definitely belong on the
consideration list right I just don't necessarily know where they're headed. Uh,
they're They've been good since the trade deadline, small sample size.
Now Sabonus is out with that hamstring strain, He'll probably
be back in like a minute because it's the bonus.
But just sort of the makeup of this roster of
Keegan Murray, Sabonis, DeRozan, Zach Lavine, Malik monk Kean Ellis,
I don't this is not a team. I don't think
they're gonna consider rebuilding. But do they have now after
the d'arron Fox trade, do they have the assets necessary
in some of the salaries to say, Okay, we're gonna
go consolidate and try and balance out our roster, And
then what does that even look like? I think look
there are people clamoring for a floor general for them
when they had Darn Fox and like, now it's okay,
you have Levine and de Rosen and Monk, And I
don't know, can I still believe as good as they've
been offensively statistically since the trade deadline, I just don't
view them as a playoff prove offense if they were
to get there. And so that's a need, but it's
not the only need. And I don't know that they
have the tools to address all the needs that they have.
And so I'm wondering if I'm discounting the idea that
could we see them pivot into something more closely resembling
a rebuild this summer, especially if they miss the playoffs,
whether it's but they'll make the plan or is it
no the Darron Fox trade, Yes, they kind of lost
a lot of leverage there. Yes, he wanted to go
to the Spurs, But did that kind of telegraph what
they're trying to do?
Speaker 2: I just don't. I don't see a rebuild or anything
close to it, just because that's not how the Kings
have really, like ever operated, Like there have been situations
where it was more obvious that like a startover was
necessary and they didn't do it. And now I think
you can look at the you can it's real easy
to put you know, DeRozan, Levine, Sabonis, Murray like up
on the Marquee and the ownership and fans are like,
that's cool. Those guys are good like that, you know that,
Like they can be a decent team. They can be
competitive night tonight. I think if you're just talking about ceiling,
the problems that have been there for a while persist,
which is like they overend x on score first slash
like score only guys that don't help you win on
the margins, and like I think most smart teams are
not going to trade you those guys for the Levines
and the Derozans of the world and the Sabonises, who
just their track records are what they are, like they're
playing guys their first round out guys they you know,
you know what I mean. Like, so if you're if
you're just a back, like if you sent Monk to
Orlando for Isaac and something like that would make sense
to me from like a let's balance out the roster
King's standpoint and Orlando really, but that isn't the type
of trade that the Kings typically make, where it's like
monks the flash of your name, he scores, he generates highlights.
He kind of plays a position of need because they
don't have a point guard. We should probably talk about
Devin Carter and like how he's going to feature going forward.
But the kinds of trades the Kings need to make
to go from like pretty good to something better than
that just don't obviously present themselves. But I do think
the reason they're here is like they should try to
look different next year. I just, I just I'm not
sure if you have a clear way to explain how
that might happen.
Speaker 1: I don't have a clear way because it seems like
that I mean, you out laid both of their needs,
which and I mentioned the floor general type, and then
it would be nice to get like you need a
different type of look on the front line, like preferately
that player can man some center behind the bonus, but
most certainly like okay, can you play them with Kegan
Murray and some bonus and help you defensively there? I
don't know, like I don't know what the order like
Isaac would be a good call out, So like let's
say you're able to make an Isaac trade. He can't
play a ton of minutes, but let's just say that's
not a factor if you're moving Monk, what is then
the name you go after to help you with your offense?
Because Devin Carter, even if he's healthy, that's never been
someone that he's like, he's profiled, and I know he's
still sort of working his way back, but it's not
like he's been a huge part of the rotation anyway.
I know there's like big expectator big there's expectations, let's
say in Sacramento. So that's gonna hurt the learning curve,
but that's I don't know why that would make them
any more confident in kind of baptizing him by fire
next year. And so it's like do they have Is
this team better off if you can use Monk and
then you have these assets, and it's like you end
up somehow with Jonathan Isaac and Kobe White, like this
team is better off. But is that enough or have
you kind of said, well, now we're gonna pay Kobe
White a bunch of money as Demarta Rosen I guess
is in the final year of his contract, and it's
And that's the other thing too, is with the exception
of some bonus and Keegan Murhy, just because we know
how extensions are restricted free agency works, what else is
here long term as a known quantity?
Speaker 2: Yeah, like Levine is, I mean, who knows, But that
doesn't seem like someone they're like already talking about, like
how do we keep him? You know that, And DeRozan's not.
DeRozan's non guaranteed after next year, so he's like you
can kind of view Derozane as an expire I don't
know if it's a partial I can't remember if it's
a partial or a full non guarantee, But like DeRozan
and Valanciunis next year, technically can both be expiring via
non guarantees the following year. So like maybe that's a
package you put together to trade for somebody that you
do want to like install as a fixture. But yeah,
you're you're totally right, like Sibonus Murray, I guess, Carter,
like other than that, you know, everybody here feels kind
of short timy, and so that I mean that actually
just means like any rebuild that might be coming down
the pike is like kind of a ways off because
they've got like stop gaps for a couple more years
before they can really do anything.
Speaker 1: It does seem like they need to be a team
that can solids or it's not even consolidated, but like
they need to remake their roster and turn I'll say
it this way, they need another closing lineup member for
net like a different where it's just like the monk Murray, Sabonis, DeRozan, Levine,
Like I think the bonus will be there. Murray should absolutely,
they have no business. I don't care. I don't care
who it is for at this point short of like
one of the three best players in the NBA. So
those two are there, But I think everybody else on
this roster should be viewed as if not dispensable, then
it's like a level of interchangeable.
Speaker 2: Do you think the DeRozan acquisition was just like objectively
a mistake at this point.
Speaker 1: Yes, just because like what have you done? I made
this joke a bunch of something like your bulls West.
Now it's you have Deroza shooting well from three since
the trade deadline, So you have Rosen Levine a liability
defensively as your center, who's also like a good passer
and provides some stretch. The bonus, I think, let me
make it clear, is way better than Vucevic. But I
just don't this, There's no way. And this is why
when I've seen the defenses of the Kings, like, well,
like the dearnon Fox situation was beyond their control. It
wasn't like they clearly they clearly had no idea really
what was coming or didn't have a good handle on it,
because then why would you have done the DeRozan deal
only to pivot into the zach Lavine deal, Like you
could have figured out the machinations of getting Levigne out
right last summer, and yes you did it without giving
up a first round pick. You gave them dr Vox
Like that's way more in the first round pick.
Speaker 2: I feel like the Kings look around the league and
and like absorb like what wins, like what really wins?
And then they go like, but what if we tried this?
And like do do not that? Where it's just like,
let's get guys that have a high points per game
and rebound per game average. Is surely that will get
us to where we need to be. Like, I just
doesn't it feel like they're I don't know, they're playing
like fantasy basketball. That's such a reductive criticism, but it's like,
how do you put this roster together with its you know,
clear weaknesses and strengths and conclude like, yep, this is
gonna get us. It's just like I don't I don't
understand the vision at all.
Speaker 1: So, between Monk, DeRozan, and Levine, do you think all
three of them are on the Kings next year?
Speaker 2: Hmmm, Droze Levine, I'm gonna say no. And I weirdly
think Monk will be the one to move because he's like,
seems the easiest to move of those three.
Speaker 1: I think when you look at he balances money with
standalone on core value the best. Yeah.
Speaker 2: Right, that's a good way to put it.
Speaker 1: The now, You'll be really funny because you mentioned Monk
to Orlando, wouldn't it be very magic if we're pushing
him to run someone who could run the offense and
get it to play faster. They get someone to run
the offense, but he can't shoot and he won't play faster,
and it's to Marta rozen like that that would be
more on brand.
Speaker 2: You're thinking about who would be more in the way
of Franz and Paolo than Derozen like that would just
be kryptonite to their team.
Speaker 1: We're into the dark horse section and you chose this one,
so take it away, Grant.
Speaker 2: Well, so when you get Luka Doncic, it just like
fundamentally alters your timeline and like you have a new
central figure there for the first time since Lebron showed up,
and so that more than anything, And we'll get into why,
Like there's not a whole lot that otherwise suggests like
big changes are coming. I just think when you reorient
your whole team around a different player, it brings into
play the possibility of like a lot of differences, you know,
a lot of different things happening over the summer and
into next year. So like I guess you have to
discuss like Lebron and Finney Smith both have player options.
I don't know, you know, Lebron, if he opts out,
we'll just sign a new deal Phinney Smith. That seems
pretty integral to what they're doing, so they'll do whatever
they can to bring him back. But you also have
extension eligibility for several guys, including Luca, but like Tachi Mura,
Reeves Phinney Smith, I said, uh kleaber Gabe Vincent, you're
about six million under the first apron, so like you
could consolidate and still have a future first and a deal.
You know, I don't know if they can trade another
first on draft night, but they have assets to make trades.
That's just all to outline.
Speaker 1: Well, they be the first team to trade something related
to twenty thirty two, like a twenty thirty two swap
or the pick, because they have the twenty thirty one,
Like they could trade twenty thirty one or thirty two
on draft night.
Speaker 2: You would think, right, because if you go get Luca
suddenly you're you're like okay in prime.
Speaker 1: So they don't do it for an injury, but they're
gonna give it up for Robert. They tried Mark Williams.
Let's go to another injury prone Williams with Rob Williams.
Speaker 2: I mean, now, can we talk about the bullet dodged
on that like officially, just like.
Speaker 1: Especially because they're like first in defense since the last
time Anthony Davis played, which predates the deadline, But we're
talking would you have said, I'll say they depending on
how you feel about Vanderbilt or Finney Smith. They traded
two of their three most important defenders in the Luca trade,
and their defense is just they've been for Netik, They've
played some tough opponents.
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, it's it's unbelievable, you know. Actually, I mean
unbelievable because because the defense, I do not believe the
defense will continue to be this good.
Speaker 1: We're gonna be saying miss as they're in the conference finals,
six of the finals, gonna regress bones, can't miss threes forever.
Speaker 2: Uh yeah, we'll stick to those forever. Uh No, I mean,
do you agree or am I? Just like, am I
over overvaluing the sort of transformative effect on their plans
of getting Luca, because like, realistically not a I mean,
you can, you have some mid tier salaries you could trade,
but it's not like we've we've talked about a half
dozen teams with just more screamingly obvious changes ahead. It's
just like Luca's here, So stuff's gonna get weird.
Speaker 1: No, I I think you're spot on here, and it's
it'd be I'd be curious to say they they feel
like they might fall into the singular transaction bucket more
so than they do all of this, but maybe some
of their other guys like a Rui or even in
Austin Reeves has more standalone value that you're like, so
that you could make a series of different moves, but
they have I'm say it's a super high end offer,
but I think you can include so a first round
pick this summer and then like up to three swaps
and so with the matching money that they have, and
I assume that Dorian Phinney Smith will opt in and
they'll stend off that number because they'll want to prioritize
the room beneath the first apron. I don't know what's
this like the single best player you could get for that?
And I don't mean to play the Lakers exceptionalism card,
but they did just get Lugadncic. I know Anthony Davis
is great, but if Kevin Durant, like, would you con
I guess if you're the Lakers, if Kevin Durrant wanted
to go, would you figure out a way to make
the math work with consolidation around them? Or are you
more looking at this we need to flesh out like
kind of the depth. It's the big man, of course,
but like we want another wing type in here, because
they probably with only one first round pick to trade.
If you want them to pull off two moves of consequence,
you're either looking at it and saying, okay, well one
team has both. I'll say getting two players of consequence.
One team has both of these players, or one of
our players has like a lot of standalone value, because
you could trade a first round pick, but like swaps,
a standalone value are beyond limited, and so I'll be
curious to see just I assume it will be like
the big man route, But are they gonna, like to
what end are they gonna go like after a big man?
Like what type of swing are they gonna make? Because look,
Robert Williams a third if you don't need to give
up a first round pick for him, he's absolutely somebody
that they should be looking at this summer.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think I think we should also assume to
bring it back to Lakers exceptionalism, Like all things being equal,
if someone like Clint Capella might be willing to sign
for less to be with the Lakers and catch lobs
from Luke, you know what I mean, Like the Lakers
should assuming they work it right, so they have like
maximum financial flexibility and free agency. That money should go
pretty far because because now it's not just Lakers and Lebron,
it's Lakers Lebron and Luca and guys like certainly big
guys should want to be in on that like asap,
because you're just you're gonna look real good and so like,
I think the Durant thing is interesting or something like
that for like one more guy. I'm sort of the
opinion that Luca is just well, the best Dallas teams
had you know, him, and then Kyrie and then a
bunch of guys that defended and caught lobs and shot threes.
So I think the Lakers can kind of take a
shotgun approach of like let's get three or four guys
in the DFS mold because you also have Reeves, by
the way, like you could turn Ruey or Reeves into two,
you know, helpful players and the level.
Speaker 1: You could do that. I'm totally there with Reeves for sure.
Speaker 2: Yeah, maybe not so much Ruey wise, you have to
he might not be able to turn well. And I
think Reeves they should just keep Reeves, like I would say,
I think he's really good. And and if Lebron starts
to fade. There's your secondary playmaker that can actually just
be a point guard two. But yeah, it's it's it's uh,
it's it's kind of hacked. But like three and d
Lob catching big, that stuff's not super expensive relative to
the superstars. The Lakers tend to chase, you know, another,
so like they should just be all over it in
free agency, adding a guy here and a guy there,
and they should be looking to see if they can
get some of their mid tier salaries and a pick
to turn into a closing lineup guy. I think I
think that's totally realistic, and I think they will do
that because now that you have Luca, Like, why aren't
you going to do that?
Speaker 1: And there's also just not process of elimination when you
look at who's playing the most per game when healthy
since the trade deadline, Lebron, Austin Reeves, Ruey, Luca and
Dorian Finney Smith and then every one after that Jackson
Hayes gave Vincent, Jordan Goodwin, Dalton Connect, Jared Vanderbilt, Trey Jamison.
It just feels like, and I would even extend it upwards,
I won't. Maybe it's RUI maybe it maybe it ends
up being I wouldn't guess it would be Austin Reeves,
but maybe it ends up being Dorian Finney Smith leaving
or something. But certainly Jackson Hayes of their like top
ten most used players right now, like half of those
just could be different.
Speaker 2: That probably should be I think, just you know, because
like you said that, once you got past who wasn't
on the list, probably like Finney Smith, and it's like
and Ruie, like, yeah, these guys are all we can
upgrade on every single one of these six through ten
spots in the rotation.
Speaker 1: My dark horse pick is the Memphis Grizzlies. I don't
know that I'm saying John Morant will enter the trade
rumor mail. I just look at it and say, if
once they get to the playoffs, there could be a
chance that they get bounced in the first round, if
something like that happens, or there's not really a competitive
second round start, my assumption would be that they start
looking at is it consolidation that a lot of people
have been begging for for a while. Do they look
at I think Jaron Jackson. Honestly, I think Jared Jackson Junior,
And I like, is the player that's most secure there
for the future, even more so than John Morant, just
when you look consider the injury stuff. But if you
don't make a deep playoff run, are you gonna consolidate?
Do you maybe look at moving John Morant and thinking
that you can get better? Do you maybe dangling Desmond
Bayne to see if that is something that could satisfy, like,
let's say, improving the the wing situation, specifically something they
have all their own first round picks. They're gonna have
cap space, which I assume they'll use to renegotiate Jared
Jackson's junior deal all the Actually, they probably don't even
need to because he's gonna make all NBA although hopefully, Yeah,
how long is he out for? I didn't see that.
Speaker 2: Well, so he's got to He's only got to play
like seven more games I think to get to sixty five,
and I think it was I mean, I think it's
gonna be close actually, so, I mean, I would imagine
he'll manage to find a way to play those games
so he's so he gets the Supermax but still.
Speaker 1: So if he's not super Max eligible, I'm assuming that
they will use the cap space to renegotiate his deal.
But like they have the flexibility beneath the luxury tax
to say we can consolidate, and we have. They have
all their own picks. They have interesting young like if
you just include zach het jallenwell sure, but like Gig
Jackson's intriguing, Like Santille Dama's gonna be your free agents.
We got to factor that into their His cap hold
is within their cap space plan. But is he still
on the team. This just feels like they're so deep
that they need to consolidate, and a lot of that
it's been born from necessity out of injuries. But like
all these names like a Vince Williams Junior and a
Scottie Pitpen Jr. Like all these guys are just not
going to continue to be on the roster moving forward
if you fall short of the conference finals. I don't
know the scale at which they're gonna make changes, but
they seem like a team that is primed for either
a significant consolidation trade or maybe even like kind of
more of an overhaul than we're expecting right now.
Speaker 2: The Morant side of it is really interesting because I
feel like I'm holding out longer than some on the whole.
You know, actually Jaron Jackson's their best player and most
important player. I think that's probably right that Jackson is
that guy now, but because of what Moran can do
on the ball, I still hold. But then I kept thinking, like,
what if he's kind of more stuffan Marberry, then I
don't know someone better than that. What it's like amazing highlights,
but like kind of never won and eventually is going
to bounce around as his athleticism leaves. Like trading him
it would be like fascinating. I don't know what you
could get for him, but like you could really envision
a scenario where Memphis gets better by moving him. I
think that's totally possible. If you had to guess, do
you think it's more likely that they go seismic and
think about a Morant move, or it's you know, they
bundle up a couple other guys and try to just
get that wing that they haven't had, or something like smaller.
Speaker 1: I guess I think it's the latter because they were
a team that was linked to Kevin Durant this season,
and you know that John Morant. I wouldn't have expected
John Morant to be involved in that deal, I will
say it does get What gets tough for them is
that they're losing some of their best salary. I say,
some like Lukenard's in expiring contract. They did just get
Marvin Bagley, so him expiring doesn't matter that much. But
so if you're not, like just losing even that nine
million dollars from Luke Canard, what are you gonna step
ladder your way to I guess is more to my points,
So do you have to if you're looking at a
Kevin Durant or something that major, I guess Desmond Baine
or John Morant has to be included then at that
point and then don't is there a tier of salary
down that like, because you couldn't even at this point,
it would be tough for them to make the math
not impossible, be tough for them to make the math
work if they decided they wanted to be the Paul
George team without including the Desmond Bane or Ja Morant
salary based off what's on their books.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's an increasingly prevalent problem right with just you
you the mid the mid tier or just I don't know,
call it the like the non super duperstar salary figures
the twenties and thirties that are like, really can facilitate
a deal as I would.
Speaker 1: You think their fifth on the book guaranteed money next year?
Their fourth highest paid players Brandon Clark at twelve and
a half and then John Concerts fifth at six point two.
Speaker 2: Yeah, tough, tough to get there. We should note that
Zach Kleman did basically come out and say because some
of the Morant chatter had had risen in volume, like
basically said like, talk all you want, we hear it,
but we're not trading him like that, you know what
is what he which is Like? Even that made me
think like, oh, they're going to trade him because you know,
you didn't come out and say that unless unless you like,
I don't know, it's just probably being too cynical, but
you know what I mean, the fact that he came
out and did that, like just don't say anything now
now my antennae are up even more.
Speaker 1: He probably could have said something like Ja Morant was
never a vail, like could you have could you have
made more pinpoint like targeteds at Ja Morant. We did
not take any calls on Jahn Morant this trade deadline
or something where then.
Speaker 2: And we certainly didn't call anybody about him, like, yeah
you could, you could be pretty pretty direct, but the
it felt like a little protesting too much. It felt
like a little over compensation maybe from him.
Speaker 1: Now, what would be this Let's just say, I mean,
even now we're doing a bunch of projecting here, what
is the scale of move that you think makes it like?
Speaker 2: Could you do?
Speaker 1: I'm not saying I'll make him available, but if he's healthy,
does herb Jones like is that someone that said okay,
like the Grizzlies feel like an actual title threat with him?
Or does it need to be a better let's say,
maybe a more dynamic offensive player than that.
Speaker 2: No? No, So I think there has to be a
caveat which is like Jamran is healthy and at least,
you know, playing close to peak levels, then herb Jones
is like more than enough, I think, because like that's
just what they got to have. I mean, maybe you'd
like it if he was a higher volume three point shooter,
but like that level of big wing defender that can
guard guys that Jah can't, and that can guard guys
that bane you don't want to use it on and
up to your power forward really like that? Would that
would do it for me? I think, right, like, do
you think they need someone better than that?
Speaker 1: I go back and forth because I still think one
of their biggest problems is going to be their offense
in the playoffs. And it's funny because as we're talking,
like we've seen their defense and slip more than their offense.
But just like that first shot half court offense, it's
not Gangbusters. And maybe that comes back to you have
to really believe in the John Morant, Desmond Bay and
Jaron Jackson junior of it all. But I would almost
wonder if someone like and Andrew Wiggins, who in theory
provides more floor spacing, would do more like more for
them in that capacity. But I don't This is say,
I don't think they need to be a Kevin Durant
team towards Do we need to give up Desmond Bain, Like,
because would you give up if you're the Grizzlies. I
guess you have to give up Desmond Bane for Kevin Durant.
If push comes to shove, are you giving up Desmond
Baine for Paul George?
Speaker 2: No? No, with you, I don't think so. I mean
for Durant I would, but even that is kind of like,
you know, got Baine. Well, I think Bain's contract is
still fine, but like it's not it's not a total
you know, it's not a not a huge value. I
don't think anymore. Is maybe we thought that when he
signed it too, you know. I think ultimately I believe
that the Moran Baine Jazz and trio if healthy, Like
that's I think that's another Now the evidence suggestsed isn't it.
But I I still have a pretty easy time putting
my faith in them as like, okay, the offense with
those three guys like and just non zero's at the
other two spots, like in a closing line, like that
should be good enough. It doesn't it feel like that
should be enough?
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's just they really, Yes, I do feel like
it should be enough. I'm with you there, But doesn't
it feel like you need to be more particular about
who is in those final two spots that yeah, you
would with another type of starish trio.
Speaker 2: So so like if it weren't Herb Jones and it
with Trey Murphy like they're never gonna get him. But
then you're like, okay, we're like good that that is
that's enough like offensively for sure, But I think somewhere
between those two guys would be fine, even if it's
Jones and if Jackson's at the five and you can
find another like if it's Cam Johnson, you know, someone
like that. I think. I think then I feel fine
because I do still just believe those three guys should
be good enough offensively to get away with it.
Speaker 1: Do you know what I thought about when the Ja
Morant it wasn't even a rumor, and Howard Beck made
that clearness. He's like the executive speculating about Joa Moran's future.
I don't actually know what this would solve, but in
my head I was like, what if Milwaukee called you
and wanted Ja Morant Edie picks for Giannis because Jannis
wanted out? Don't you almost have to do that? But
then it's sort of like you're upgrading, like a situation
that's kind of like are you down you're downgrading your
half court creation. Johann is a great passer, okay, like
he's really mid range game really working this year for him.
I think that's opened up his passing as well. You
have to do it, but is that would you look
at the Grizzlies and say finish content like Jared Jackson junior,
Desmond being Giannis and then what is Scottie Pippen junior
or Vince Williams junior, Like that's the de facto point
guard there. I think you get enough playmaking out of
Gianni's and Desmond Baine to try it, But that would
be you'd be It'd be a weird situation, right.
Speaker 2: I want to make clear I would try it, that
would be very interested in.
Speaker 1: Trying that, honest and jarring Jackson Junior in the same
front court.
Speaker 2: It's hard to envision a compliment, to be honest, that
would be better than Jackson. I think it's no problem
playing those two guys together.
Speaker 1: Do you think the Grizzlies will this is the way
to frame it for them. Will they acquire someone a
new player who's a part of their most used closing
lineup next year. I'm gonna manifest a yes, this could,
I guess if they go deep in the playoffs. But
I don't have the utmost confidence in this team as
a playoff group.
Speaker 2: I was gonna say yes, no matter what, and it
would be it'll be an emphatic yes if and this,
This will be the way it goes south. They get
into a playoff series and they can't score like that,
then it's just like you've got no cover for running
it back next year.
Speaker 1: Now this this is a dark horse that was forced
on to the podcast. Kyrie Irving out for the season
torn acl Nico Harrison is convinced that in his thirties,
he's gonna come back better than ever from a torn AC.
Here's hoping that absolutely happens. They always, I guess, could
have made this list. But their season's over. I mean
you could argue it was over from the moment they
traded Luka Doncic, to be clear, But you're dealing with
injuries to Kyrie Irving, Anthony Davis, Daniel Gafford, Derek Lively.
The second hasn't played in forever. Caleb Martin wasn't playing
before he even traded for him. They should be tanking,
Like I guess my point is, what's the point of
even bringing Anthony Davis back?
Speaker 2: Don't do it if you're Anthony.
Speaker 1: Davis and I did mention this now by like we
talked about it previously, you mean by saying, isn't there
a party that just wants to escape the specter of
the Luca trade from being in Dallas. But now I'm
just like, why do you want to stay there with that? Like,
because Kyrie this injury, I would think it torpedoes at
least a quarter of his season next year?
Speaker 2: Right, Oh more than that, I think you right off
next year. I really do. I think in terms of like,
good Kyrie, just I don't think you're going to get
him that.
Speaker 1: So why does Anthony Davis want to be there right now? Then?
Couldn't he come and say, like his leverage would be
what it is when you look at his contract, but
trade me, I have to be here. I mean he
did kind of he waved his not like his tradekicker
to be there. But I just don't like this. I'm
not necessarily predicting it, but what is who is the
player that is holding this team in place? Now?
Speaker 2: I think the first thing you said is one of
the first thoughts I had after the trade is like,
Anthony Davis is in an impossible position. It's not his fault,
but like he's the guy that's there now and Luca isn't,
And and that just carries with it such a weight that,
like even before the Kyrie injury, I was just like
I would want out of there so fast if I
were him, and like, apparently the relationship between him and
Nico Harrison is powerful and like meaningful, and that's part
of the reason he's there. But if like, then in
that case, Nico should understand when Anthony Davis comes to
him and says, like this is an I can't be here,
like this is unsustainable for me. And now in addition
to that, you have the whole like, well, next year's
kind of a wash because Kyrie is gonna miss most
of it and who knows how he's gonna come back.
So like, if I'm and then if you're Dallas, it
would be indefensible. But they've they're already like nobody, you know,
everybody's as mad as they can be. To pivot into
we're trading Anthony Davis to like replenish our draft store
and start rebuilding. Like man, that would be brutal, but
like it almost feels like the right decision at this point,
don't you think, Like, because if the alternative is let's
trade Davis for another really good player and he's just
here by himself too, then like what's there you don't
get better that way.
Speaker 1: I guess the issue is if you do that, you
have no means to save face because you could have
just gotten the hall that you're gonna prioritize with Davis.
You could have gotten more had you prioritized that hall
with Luka Dacic, which I'm not saying this would have
been except if you were trading Luka Doncic. That's what
you should have been doing in the first place.
Speaker 2: Well, the other thing is like if the theory of
targeting Davis in addition to Harrison and Polenka had a
good relationship and that's part why he went there, If
the theory of targeting Davis was like, no, no, no,
he's that good to where he's the central figure, and yeah,
it'd be nice if Kyrie were there, but he's not
like indispensable to the process because Davis is the core.
We can build you know, a real contender around Davis
as the number one guy, which by the way, has
just not ever been true. Like, if that's the theory
of it, then I still think Dallas belongs here because
you're remaking a huge portion of the roster around him,
not the least of which is you need a primary
ball handler because Kyrie will not be it for a
large portion of next year. And I don't know where
they go get that guy.
Speaker 1: You know it's and there. I guess. So they have
this year's pick, they have next year's pick, then they
owe they don't control the next four. They don't control
twenty seven, twenty nine or twenty thirty. I don't know.
Like I guess you do have the matching salary to
go out and get somebody to do that, But who
is the They've been mentioned as a Kevin Durant destination.
It just feels I don't understand. I don't necessarily understand.
Then doubling down on that, they could probably make the
money work, and I guess you have the first round
equity to make it work. I just don't even know
if that makes me feel better about traveling down the
more immediate path. It feels now with the Kyrie injury,
more so than anything, it just feels like post Luke,
Like post Lucas should have always been a rebuild. There
shouldn't be a post Luca era, let me make it clear,
but it should have been about a rebuild. Now just
feels like with the injury to Anthony Davis and his
MAV's debut, the injury to Kyrie, just all the other
stuff they've been dealing with. What is the other option?
And I just I'd be a little bit surprised if
they're the team that's able to get Kevin Durant. Maybe
he wants to play with Kyrie vering again, but you're
gonna have to when you're looking at the salaries to
get there, Like that's gonna take a pretty like bigger
chunk of your rotation. Like we're talking, We're not talking
you trade two players and get Kevin Durant. You're trading
three at least at.
Speaker 2: Least right, And it's it's guys like just to go
down the salary list like Thompson at almost seventeen, PJ.
Washington at fourteen, and Gafford at another fourteen. Like then
you're in. You're in the neighborhood then, But like what
does that least? And if I'm Phoenix, I'm like, you're
gonna need to give me Derek Lively, Like that's he's
gonna have to be in the deal. It's it's brutal.
I mean, you can't really trade Kyrie. I don't think
like nobody's gonna.
Speaker 1: Want an expiring contract.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Like as as for a worse, longer term deal,
yeah it they will have to if well, they should
look different, But can't you imagine Dallas just coming back
with like, well, we got we're gonna have Jaden Hardy
on the ball, and Max Christy looks really good, and
we got three big, three big guys. We can't play
any of them together, Like you know, I they should
look different, but who knows with this with this team
now And.
Speaker 1: The other thing that I didn't mention if you are
going to go, I don't know if it's a consolidation rout,
like we're gonna trade assets to get because they have
an addition, they they have the Lakers pick in twenty
twenty nine, they can move as well. If you're going
to trade for someone giving up higher end assets, you
then need to be short, like they can't be redundant
with Kyrie Irving, so it has to be someone that
can play with him. So you're looking at either like
a much bigger guard, or then it's like, well we
need more of a point wing at this point, and
those aren't growing on trees themselves. And then it comes
back to the salary thing is they also kind of
need to be semi cheap where it's a two for
one rather than a three or four for one.
Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, it's it's tough that the money's gonna be
tricky no matter how they structure it. I think. Yeah, sorry,
sorry to include Dallas, but they we didn't have a choice.
Speaker 1: Look, there are season ticket prices next Ye're only going
up eight percent grant, So I don't really see what
the big deal is.
Speaker 2: It's a bargain that.
Speaker 1: Was an exercise. Those are the ten teams that we
went through. I don't think there was anyone I went
through the rest of the league and was kind of like,
feels like Austin would still be a year away if
we're going to get into financial constraints. Tear down Atlanta
could have been interesting because of Trey Young. Uh just
he's going into the final guaranteed year of his deal
before free agency. But they actually feel like they're actively building,
just like, let's see if we can build a defensive
monster around Jalen Johnson and Trey Young. Feels like the
direction they're headed down. Any other team that would be
an honorable mentioned.
Speaker 2: For you, depending on what you know, if they get
six or seven first round picks back when they trade
mckel bridges, then they'll probably look pretty different when they
flip all those picks. But that's what they'll get, right.
Speaker 1: That comes with riding a high off a twelve point
victory over the Knicks the night before we record this
A little bit, a little bit different just because they're
like their picks are. We don't even know if they're
going to convey this year, but if they don't convey
this year's pick, it's almost incumbent on them to look
different so that they can be good and not convey
really good picks to other teams.
Speaker 2: That and you just have to obligatorily throw Miami in
to the like, well it's so and so Star is available,
Miami is among the pursuers, like because they they have
as good a chance as almost anybody is, just adding
a huge name because that's what they seem to want
to do.
Speaker 1: And just the two final teams I mentioned, I was
curious if he thought, could it be New Orleans if
they end up winning the draft lottery, would it just
be like, let's trade Zion. He's playing, well, let's trade
him now, and we're gonna rebuild around Cooper Flag and
trade Murphy.
Speaker 2: It's yeah, yeah, for sure, I could see that. Isn't
it just the whole It's just the Zion thing in
a nutshell where like because he looks so good lately,
like you can never trade this guy, look how good
he is. It's like, this is when you should trade him.
Do it now before before anybody catches on, before he gets.
Speaker 1: Hurt again, anybody catches on, Like, we don't have more
and a half decades, nobody's nobody's quite up to speed on.
Speaker 2: He's not super durable.
Speaker 1: So there will be people who say, okay, se could
make a consolidation trade. I think that'll always just be
the case with the assets they have. Yeah, one team
that I think it would be worth talking about more
so after we see them in the playoffs Milwaukee, Yeah,
what does Gianna says that they're gonna have to drag
him out of town if he ever leaves, But he's
also said that he wants to be in a position
to win and kind of so that would just be
a team. I'm not predicting it, but that because we
didn't include them here, that's the team where it's like
I could see them looking a lot different depending on
how the playoffs. Like maybe even Damian Lillard just says
this isn't it like with this for me, like after
for the second year. So that's the team that's left
that I feel like could be defined the most by
what happens in the playoffs.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a good pick among playoff teams. I'm hard pressed.
I mean Detroit, Like, if Detroit just decides, hey, we
did we did better than we thought in the playoffs,
maybe and then like now it's time to make a
decision on the Ivy Durham, Holland Thompson thing, we you know,
we throw them in a deal for like a more
established current name. I'm not saying I would do that,
but like maybe those kinds of decisions get raised.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I thought about Chicago too, but they're just never
going to look a lot and I don't even know
what a lot different. Like, Okay, if you trade Kobe White,
that's one, but who else needs to gouch isn't going
to ruin a tank.
Speaker 2: They're just going to extend Ucevic again. That'll be the
big difference over this time.
Speaker 1: I did think about to run in the sense of
just now they just have we we assume they're gonna
keep brandon ing. Remember what if they're could you see
them turn around and trade him for in like a
Kevin Durant package?
Speaker 2: Like how many times have we traded Kevin Durant today?
I guess we have to because he's clearly gonna get traded,
But still.
Speaker 1: That I think that's it. I'm the only other team finally,
just the Nuggets, but they're they have room beneath the
apron next year, So it's just if they're gonna with
Christian Brown being extension eligible and Peyton Watson right behind him,
it feels like we're a year away from them looking
inward and saying one of the non Jokic, really high
paid players needs to go.
Speaker 2: Yeah, unless they get like bounced really in an ugly
way in the first round, and then it's like, well,
Porter Junior or maybe Gordon or somebody like that, they
start thinking.
Speaker 1: About, uh, you ready to take us out of here?
Speaker 2: Yeah? Thanks everybody for listening, for watching. Remember wherever you're
getting your podcast, rate review subscribe there. If you're watching
this on YouTube, leave us a comment, give us a
give us your feedback on any teams we should have
included any moves we didn't, you know, discuss. I've just
recalled because I think about these things. Tis Jones is
an unrestricted free agent, so maybe like he'll, uh, he'll affect.
Speaker 1: Phoenix's outlook next year to play anymore, because Gillespie is
now like that he's out.
Speaker 2: Yeah, forget it, he's he's not gonna have a job.
What else? Join our discord links for that YouTube and
podcast description. Sell your friends, Hill your enemies, shouts Franklin
the King. Apologies, Jared Allen