1 00:00:01,120 --> 00:00:04,160 Speaker 1: You're listening to the Mind Over Murder podcast. 2 00:00:06,000 --> 00:00:09,679 Speaker 2: My name is Bill Thomas. I'm a writer, consulting, producer, 3 00:00:09,720 --> 00:00:12,839 and now podcaster. I am now trying to use my 4 00:00:12,919 --> 00:00:15,800 experience as the brother of a murder victim to help 5 00:00:15,880 --> 00:00:18,600 other victims of violent crime. I'm working on a book 6 00:00:18,679 --> 00:00:21,440 on the unsolved Colonial Parkway murders, and I'm the co 7 00:00:21,519 --> 00:00:24,760 administrator of the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook group together with 8 00:00:24,839 --> 00:00:25,519 Kristin Dilly. 9 00:00:26,079 --> 00:00:27,359 Speaker 3: My name is Kristin Dilly. 10 00:00:27,519 --> 00:00:31,199 Speaker 4: I'm a writer, a researcher, a teacher, and a victim's advocate, 11 00:00:31,359 --> 00:00:34,719 as well as the social media manager and co administrator 12 00:00:34,799 --> 00:00:37,799 for the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook page with my partner 13 00:00:37,840 --> 00:00:39,079 in crime, Bill Thomas. 14 00:00:43,880 --> 00:00:46,920 Speaker 3: Welcome to Mind Ever Murder. I'm Kristin Dilly and I'm 15 00:00:46,920 --> 00:00:50,719 Bill Thomas. How are you doing today there, mister Thomas. 16 00:00:51,079 --> 00:00:53,399 A wonderful, beautiful day out there in Connecticut. 17 00:00:53,640 --> 00:00:56,439 Speaker 2: It's just fine. We're just back from a few days 18 00:00:56,520 --> 00:00:59,840 offer at Cape cod In a wonderful time and visit 19 00:00:59,880 --> 00:01:02,960 a family. Very relaxing and I tried to do as 20 00:01:02,960 --> 00:01:05,879 little as possible. That was actually a good goal. 21 00:01:06,719 --> 00:01:08,680 Speaker 3: It is the best goal when you're going to the beach, 22 00:01:08,719 --> 00:01:10,959 you should do as little as possible. And I say 23 00:01:11,000 --> 00:01:13,040 that having just gone to the beach myself and made 24 00:01:13,079 --> 00:01:15,040 a point of doing as much as possible. 25 00:01:16,439 --> 00:01:18,200 Speaker 2: Wait a minute, as much or as little. 26 00:01:18,840 --> 00:01:21,000 Speaker 3: I ultimately I'm one of those people that when I 27 00:01:21,000 --> 00:01:23,480 get to a place, I like to go places. So 28 00:01:23,719 --> 00:01:27,159 I went to three different beaches to shell hunt. I 29 00:01:27,239 --> 00:01:31,040 went for a five mile run around the right Memorial, 30 00:01:31,079 --> 00:01:35,280 which commemorates Orvilen wilbur Wright's first flight. I mean, I 31 00:01:35,439 --> 00:01:38,319 called my significant other and he was like, why would 32 00:01:38,359 --> 00:01:41,120 you go for a five mile run when you're supposed 33 00:01:41,120 --> 00:01:45,040 to be relaxing, And I just don't feel right sitting still. 34 00:01:45,519 --> 00:01:47,840 Even though I was supposed to be relaxing, I did 35 00:01:48,040 --> 00:01:50,879 more than I probably ought to have, considering that it 36 00:01:50,920 --> 00:01:52,799 was just supposed to be go to the beach, hunt 37 00:01:52,799 --> 00:01:53,760 for shells and have fun. 38 00:01:54,239 --> 00:01:58,239 Speaker 2: A five mile run, though for an athlete such as yourself, 39 00:01:58,599 --> 00:02:01,000 was probably relaxing. 40 00:02:00,680 --> 00:02:02,640 Speaker 3: It was a nice challenge to try to run up 41 00:02:02,680 --> 00:02:06,280 the monument. It's a rough hill, so I did run. 42 00:02:06,480 --> 00:02:08,719 I would say about orian three quarters of the way up. 43 00:02:08,759 --> 00:02:10,479 In the last quarter I had to walk because it 44 00:02:10,520 --> 00:02:11,520 was a hard run. 45 00:02:11,759 --> 00:02:14,759 Speaker 2: This is the hill where they flew the airplane. 46 00:02:15,560 --> 00:02:19,199 Speaker 3: There's a really wonderful, really beautiful monument up at the top, 47 00:02:19,240 --> 00:02:21,280 and say, you can walk up the hill a number 48 00:02:21,319 --> 00:02:23,919 of different ways and then get to the monument at 49 00:02:23,960 --> 00:02:25,960 the top, and then you can see all the way 50 00:02:25,960 --> 00:02:27,800 down the hill on the path where they took their 51 00:02:27,840 --> 00:02:30,439 first flight. It's really great. For anybody who's local who 52 00:02:30,439 --> 00:02:33,280 hasn't gone down to the right memorial, go, It's wonderful. 53 00:02:33,759 --> 00:02:37,199 It's a nice monument to an important moment in history. 54 00:02:37,680 --> 00:02:39,240 Went for a run up the hill. 55 00:02:39,879 --> 00:02:42,840 Speaker 2: Now, in my mind, never having been to the location, 56 00:02:43,319 --> 00:02:46,039 seen movies and that sort of thing, I picture this 57 00:02:46,240 --> 00:02:49,759 as being out in the dunes and still in its 58 00:02:49,840 --> 00:02:52,439 wild natural state. Is that the case. 59 00:02:52,719 --> 00:02:55,240 Speaker 3: It's a National Park Service site, so there is a 60 00:02:55,319 --> 00:02:58,400 visitor center and everything like that, but the actual memorial 61 00:02:58,439 --> 00:03:01,599 itself is it's out there. They built the visitors center 62 00:03:02,120 --> 00:03:04,319 away from the hill, so you do have to walk 63 00:03:04,360 --> 00:03:06,840 to get out there. It is very pretty. It's not 64 00:03:06,919 --> 00:03:09,319 actually in the dunes. The dunes are a little further 65 00:03:09,400 --> 00:03:12,080 out Jackie's Ridge, which is the largest sand dune in 66 00:03:12,080 --> 00:03:14,639 the area. That's a little further away. Once you get 67 00:03:14,639 --> 00:03:16,800 to the top of the monument. You can see the 68 00:03:16,800 --> 00:03:18,759 ocean from there, which is pretty cool. You can see 69 00:03:18,759 --> 00:03:21,840 it on all sides, and it's very nice. You do 70 00:03:21,919 --> 00:03:23,719 need to come to the Outer Banks at one point 71 00:03:23,800 --> 00:03:25,520 or another. I've gone to see you. You need to 72 00:03:25,520 --> 00:03:28,680 come down here anger to the Outer Banks. It's wonderful. 73 00:03:28,840 --> 00:03:32,000 Speaker 2: It's on our list. We would very much like to 74 00:03:32,080 --> 00:03:34,439 go to the Outer Banks, based on the reports we've 75 00:03:34,439 --> 00:03:37,560 heard from you and many other people who love the 76 00:03:37,599 --> 00:03:38,240 Outer Banks. 77 00:03:38,599 --> 00:03:41,000 Speaker 3: Now we've reached the end of our summer here, no 78 00:03:41,080 --> 00:03:43,719 more vacation for either of us, and as we go 79 00:03:43,759 --> 00:03:46,199 about trying to figure out what topics are we going 80 00:03:46,280 --> 00:03:48,639 to cover as I head into the new school year 81 00:03:48,719 --> 00:03:52,840 and Bill continues his tireless work on the Colonial Parkway 82 00:03:52,919 --> 00:03:55,960 murders case and other cases, we kind of have to 83 00:03:56,000 --> 00:03:57,639 start thinking what is it that we're going to be 84 00:03:57,639 --> 00:04:01,039 presenting our audience with as we move in to fall 85 00:04:01,120 --> 00:04:04,439 and then winter. And we had been spinning our wheels 86 00:04:04,439 --> 00:04:06,879 on a specific topic that we thought would be very 87 00:04:06,879 --> 00:04:10,039 interesting for our audience. We just weren't entirely sure how 88 00:04:10,080 --> 00:04:13,080 to go about presenting it. I thought it would be 89 00:04:13,159 --> 00:04:18,199 neat for us to cover the profile of a presidential 90 00:04:18,279 --> 00:04:21,639 assassin or it would be presidential assassin. But considering that 91 00:04:21,759 --> 00:04:25,000 neither Bill nor I are profilers, we were trying to 92 00:04:25,000 --> 00:04:27,439 figure out who do we tap in to do the 93 00:04:27,519 --> 00:04:30,199 reporting on this? Do we get Jim Fitzgerald, Do we 94 00:04:30,199 --> 00:04:32,920 get Jim Clemente, Do we get doctor Ray Carr? Who 95 00:04:32,959 --> 00:04:35,920 do we get? And lo and behold, The New York 96 00:04:35,959 --> 00:04:40,240 Times magazine published a piece that really solved the problem 97 00:04:40,319 --> 00:04:43,240 of how do we talk about this? For us? And 98 00:04:43,439 --> 00:04:46,879 The New York Times magazine on July twenty fifth, twenty 99 00:04:46,920 --> 00:04:51,560 twenty four, put up a very interesting piece of long 100 00:04:51,600 --> 00:04:55,319 form reporting from a reporter named Mark O'Connell. This was 101 00:04:55,360 --> 00:04:58,639 the lead story in The New York Times magazine and 102 00:04:58,800 --> 00:05:02,160 it is titled John hank and the Madness of American 103 00:05:02,240 --> 00:05:06,079 Political Violence. John Hinckley Junior, of course, is somebody that 104 00:05:06,120 --> 00:05:09,199 I think we're all familiar with. Bill. Do you remember 105 00:05:09,600 --> 00:05:12,839 where you were when Reagan was nearly assassinated? 106 00:05:13,240 --> 00:05:15,920 Speaker 2: If I can tell you specifically where I was at 107 00:05:15,920 --> 00:05:18,600 that moment, But I do remember when we heard the 108 00:05:18,680 --> 00:05:22,040 shocking news that Reagan had been shot. At the time 109 00:05:22,079 --> 00:05:26,240 it was initially reported, I'm not sure they said whether 110 00:05:26,839 --> 00:05:30,839 President Reagan had been badly enough injured to threaten his life, 111 00:05:30,839 --> 00:05:32,680 but we knew it was very serious, and we knew 112 00:05:32,720 --> 00:05:36,879 that multiple people had been shot. A couple of weeks ago, 113 00:05:37,120 --> 00:05:41,759 when former President Trump was shot at in Butler, Pennsylvania, 114 00:05:42,199 --> 00:05:45,439 that brought some of these memories back in pretty sharp 115 00:05:45,519 --> 00:05:50,800 relief because the very disturbing news. It comes to such 116 00:05:50,839 --> 00:05:54,079 a shock when something like this happened, and then you're 117 00:05:54,199 --> 00:05:57,920 very concerned about was the president or former president injured? 118 00:05:58,160 --> 00:06:02,519 Were other people injured which happened in the Butler, Pennsylvania shooting. 119 00:06:03,040 --> 00:06:10,439 It seems like such a peculiarly American phenomenon, and it 120 00:06:10,639 --> 00:06:14,560 just sad me so profoundly to see these things happening 121 00:06:14,680 --> 00:06:17,240 over and over again. I know we've talked about it 122 00:06:17,279 --> 00:06:20,639 a little bit before on Mind over Murder, and Mark O'Connell, 123 00:06:20,680 --> 00:06:24,600 the writer here, talks about how this type of political 124 00:06:24,680 --> 00:06:27,839 violence directed at our leaders is one thing, and then 125 00:06:28,000 --> 00:06:31,279 there's so many similarities between this and mass shooters, of 126 00:06:31,319 --> 00:06:34,720 which we've seen so many here in the US. It's 127 00:06:34,759 --> 00:06:38,199 a very disturbing, long term trend that's certainly been going 128 00:06:38,199 --> 00:06:39,040 on for decades. 129 00:06:39,680 --> 00:06:42,040 Speaker 3: One of the I don't think side effects is quite 130 00:06:42,079 --> 00:06:44,120 the right word but that's what I've got in my 131 00:06:44,319 --> 00:06:46,800 brain right now, so we'll go with that. One of 132 00:06:46,800 --> 00:06:49,959 the interesting side effects of growing up in Williamsburg, Virginia 133 00:06:50,279 --> 00:06:54,000 is we have two i would say, really famous or 134 00:06:54,120 --> 00:06:58,519 maybe notorious criminal cases associated with this area. One of course, 135 00:06:58,720 --> 00:07:01,680 brought me to you, Bill, is the Colonial Parkway murders. 136 00:07:01,839 --> 00:07:04,639 But the other, hey is that you really can't help 137 00:07:04,720 --> 00:07:07,319 hearing about if you grow up here in Williamsburg, Virginia, 138 00:07:07,560 --> 00:07:11,560 is about John Hinckley Junior, because for as long as 139 00:07:11,600 --> 00:07:16,000 I can remember, he has been granted leave to leave 140 00:07:16,079 --> 00:07:20,639 Saint Elizabeth's Hospital, where he was confined after being found 141 00:07:20,680 --> 00:07:24,160 not guilty by reason of insanity. He has been granted 142 00:07:24,240 --> 00:07:26,920 leave from the hospital to come visit his parents. And 143 00:07:26,959 --> 00:07:30,040 that is something that I was aware of pretty much 144 00:07:30,079 --> 00:07:32,560 all my life. And then, of course, several years ago, 145 00:07:32,600 --> 00:07:36,160 when all of the restrictions on John Hinckley were lifted 146 00:07:36,240 --> 00:07:39,839 and he came to live here permanently full time, that 147 00:07:40,000 --> 00:07:41,959 is something that we spend a little bit of time 148 00:07:42,000 --> 00:07:45,759 talking about here on the podcast. John Hinckley Junior is 149 00:07:45,879 --> 00:07:51,319 a name that really is just intertwined with Williamsburg in general. 150 00:07:51,399 --> 00:07:53,680 For those of us who have lived here most of 151 00:07:53,720 --> 00:07:56,360 our lives, as I have, That's just a name that 152 00:07:56,399 --> 00:07:59,040 you become familiar with, just as you become familiar with 153 00:07:59,079 --> 00:08:02,279 the Colonial Parkway, and just as you become familiar with 154 00:08:02,360 --> 00:08:05,920 other things unrelated to crime, like Bruce Hornsby, who is 155 00:08:05,959 --> 00:08:09,519 our resident rock musician. John Hinckley, is just someone that 156 00:08:09,639 --> 00:08:12,519 if you live here, you're familiar with that name. And 157 00:08:12,600 --> 00:08:16,600 so when I saw this article, I was particularly interested 158 00:08:16,879 --> 00:08:20,720 in the author's reasoning behind writing it right now and 159 00:08:21,040 --> 00:08:25,319 what he had to say about this very uniquely American 160 00:08:25,639 --> 00:08:31,439 phenomenon of American political violence and shootings. What we wanted 161 00:08:31,439 --> 00:08:34,840 to do today, We did want to share it with everybody, 162 00:08:34,919 --> 00:08:37,399 and we wanted to take some time to go through 163 00:08:37,399 --> 00:08:41,559 the article and then offer some color commentary on our 164 00:08:41,600 --> 00:08:44,240 thoughts on the material, because it is very interesting and 165 00:08:44,279 --> 00:08:49,559 he ties in all the various intersections between politics, pop 166 00:08:49,639 --> 00:08:53,840 culture and violence in crime, and it's a very interesting 167 00:08:54,360 --> 00:08:57,679 and engaging article that we wanted to make sure you 168 00:08:57,879 --> 00:09:01,039 are listeners were able to to spend a little bit 169 00:09:01,039 --> 00:09:03,600 of time with. So I think what we'll go ahead 170 00:09:03,639 --> 00:09:05,639 and do today, This is definitely going to be a 171 00:09:05,720 --> 00:09:08,919 chew episode er because it is quite a long piece 172 00:09:08,960 --> 00:09:11,879 of reporting very well done. And so what we'll do 173 00:09:12,000 --> 00:09:14,759 is we'll go ahead and we will go through and 174 00:09:15,080 --> 00:09:18,840 do this paragraph by paragraph, offer color commentary as needed, 175 00:09:19,360 --> 00:09:22,480 and further discussion as warranted, and we'll go from there. 176 00:09:22,799 --> 00:09:25,000 We will put a link to this article in our 177 00:09:25,039 --> 00:09:28,480 show notes, but for anybody who wants to search it 178 00:09:28,559 --> 00:09:31,480 up immediately to follow along with us. It is from 179 00:09:31,519 --> 00:09:36,080 the New York Times magazine, the July twenty fifth issue, 180 00:09:36,120 --> 00:09:38,799 twenty twenty four and the title of the article is 181 00:09:38,879 --> 00:09:42,960 John Hinckley Junior and the Madness of American Political Violence. 182 00:09:43,440 --> 00:09:46,759 Speaker 2: Before we start, just a quick reminder we had discussed 183 00:09:46,879 --> 00:09:50,879 John Hinckley Junior once before with our friend Mark Olshaker 184 00:09:51,000 --> 00:09:54,279 in an earlier episode of Mind Over Murder, which is 185 00:09:54,320 --> 00:09:57,200 a very interesting discussion, and we'll link to that in 186 00:09:57,240 --> 00:09:58,320 the show notes as well. 187 00:09:58,799 --> 00:10:02,919 Speaker 3: This piece is from author Mark O'Connell. He is a 188 00:10:02,960 --> 00:10:06,480 writer from Dublin who actually came to Williamsburg and spoke 189 00:10:06,559 --> 00:10:09,279 to John Hinckley Junior over the course of three days 190 00:10:09,279 --> 00:10:12,840 to do this article in September twenty sixteen, three and 191 00:10:12,879 --> 00:10:16,039 a half decades after he shot President Ronald Reagan in 192 00:10:16,080 --> 00:10:19,720 a deranged bid to impress the actress Jody Foster, a 193 00:10:19,759 --> 00:10:22,080 crime for which he was found not guilty by reason 194 00:10:22,080 --> 00:10:25,639 of insanity. John W. Hinckley Junior was released from Saint 195 00:10:25,639 --> 00:10:29,480 Elizabeth's Psychiatric Hospital in Washington, d c. From there, he 196 00:10:29,519 --> 00:10:32,279 moved to Williamsburg, Virginia, where he lived for some years 197 00:10:32,279 --> 00:10:35,240 with his elderly mother, Joanne, and a large house overlooking 198 00:10:35,279 --> 00:10:38,080 the thirteenth pole of a golf course. The federal court 199 00:10:38,080 --> 00:10:41,600 that granted his release did so on certain conditions. One 200 00:10:41,639 --> 00:10:44,159 of these was that he must not speak to the media. 201 00:10:44,279 --> 00:10:46,840 Another was that Hinckley, who was a songwriter for some 202 00:10:47,000 --> 00:10:50,000 years before the failed assassination attempt, and who continued to 203 00:10:50,039 --> 00:10:52,759 play music as part of his psychiatric treatment, must not 204 00:10:52,840 --> 00:10:56,919 release for public consumption, even anonymously, any of his work 205 00:10:57,120 --> 00:11:00,279 without the specific approval of the treatment team interest with 206 00:11:00,360 --> 00:11:04,519 his care. If I'm remembering correctly, Bill, that is referencing 207 00:11:04,559 --> 00:11:07,279 the Son of Sam law, which says that someone who 208 00:11:07,279 --> 00:11:10,720 has been convicted of a crime cannot benefit from their work. 209 00:11:11,159 --> 00:11:14,000 Speaker 2: That's my recollection as well. And I also remember Mark 210 00:11:14,039 --> 00:11:18,519 Olshaker weighing in very strongly that he felt that Hinckley 211 00:11:18,559 --> 00:11:22,240 should not be released back in twenty sixteen, that he 212 00:11:22,279 --> 00:11:25,080 thought it was a terrible mistake. I do find it 213 00:11:25,200 --> 00:11:29,240 odd that a man who shot four people, one of 214 00:11:29,279 --> 00:11:32,919 whom ultimately died from his injuries. James Brady, the former 215 00:11:33,000 --> 00:11:35,840 president's press secretary. I'd have to agree with Mark that 216 00:11:35,879 --> 00:11:38,799 I find it really difficult to accept the fact that 217 00:11:38,879 --> 00:11:42,639 Hinckley's out and about, but so be it so, continuing 218 00:11:42,679 --> 00:11:46,360 the article. After his arrest, Hinckley was diagnosed with, among 219 00:11:46,399 --> 00:11:53,080 other conditions, atypical psychosis and severe narcissistic personality disorder. His 220 00:11:53,200 --> 00:11:57,200 extravagantly strange and violent actions have been bound up in 221 00:11:57,279 --> 00:12:02,039 a toxic fascination with celebrity and an egomaniacal glee at 222 00:12:02,039 --> 00:12:06,200 the fame those actions brought him. Although Hinckley's treatment was 223 00:12:06,240 --> 00:12:09,360 successful and the judge was satisfied that he presented a 224 00:12:09,480 --> 00:12:13,200 very low risk of reoffending, the restrictions were intended to 225 00:12:13,320 --> 00:12:17,360 ensure that he neither courted nor was courted by the media, 226 00:12:17,519 --> 00:12:20,120 and that his mental stability would not be threatened in 227 00:12:20,159 --> 00:12:23,840 the immediate aftermath of his release by widespread attention. 228 00:12:24,600 --> 00:12:27,159 Speaker 3: I was always a little surprised by the fact that 229 00:12:27,519 --> 00:12:31,720 there was not much coverage outside of a couple of 230 00:12:31,840 --> 00:12:34,600 articles about the fact that Hinckley had been released. I 231 00:12:34,639 --> 00:12:37,639 have always been surprised. I keep waiting for the day 232 00:12:37,960 --> 00:12:40,679 that he's going to find his way onto someone's true 233 00:12:40,679 --> 00:12:44,360 crime podcast. There have been people who my own parents 234 00:12:44,360 --> 00:12:46,639 have asked, have you ever thought about like interviewing John 235 00:12:46,679 --> 00:12:49,039 Hinckley Junior for your podcast? And I've told them I 236 00:12:49,039 --> 00:12:51,960 can't think of a circumstance under which I actually want 237 00:12:52,000 --> 00:12:54,799 to talk to him. I don't know that I want 238 00:12:54,840 --> 00:12:57,320 to spend time chatting with a man who tried to 239 00:12:57,320 --> 00:13:00,960 assassinate the president. I just I don't know that I 240 00:13:01,000 --> 00:13:03,919 have that in me to do. How would you feel 241 00:13:03,919 --> 00:13:04,399 about it? 242 00:13:04,919 --> 00:13:09,000 Speaker 2: I can't see us doing it either. And then there's 243 00:13:09,080 --> 00:13:12,480 something about it. If we talk about someone's new book 244 00:13:12,799 --> 00:13:17,399 or a film project or television series or whatever, I 245 00:13:17,480 --> 00:13:22,120 think there's an implication that we feel this is worthwhile, 246 00:13:22,639 --> 00:13:25,879 that we feel this is worth bringing some attention to, 247 00:13:26,159 --> 00:13:28,120 and that we want to talk to this person because 248 00:13:28,120 --> 00:13:31,519 we think they've got something to contribute to the larger conversation, 249 00:13:31,799 --> 00:13:34,080 not just here in mind over Murder. I think there's 250 00:13:34,120 --> 00:13:38,399 an implied endorsement when we say Catherine Miles' book Trailed 251 00:13:38,759 --> 00:13:43,399 is worth reading, or you should check out this new 252 00:13:43,440 --> 00:13:47,759 book by this author or that author. I wouldn't want 253 00:13:47,799 --> 00:13:50,799 anyone to ever think that you and I were somehow 254 00:13:50,960 --> 00:13:55,639 promoting or supporting John Hinckley. And they talk about this 255 00:13:55,679 --> 00:13:58,000 in the article. We'll get into more details. He's an 256 00:13:58,080 --> 00:14:01,440 aspiring singer songwriter. It's been for a number of years, 257 00:14:01,480 --> 00:14:04,679 and he's actually attempted to go out on tour. He 258 00:14:04,759 --> 00:14:06,879 was supposed to be up here in the Northeast doing 259 00:14:06,879 --> 00:14:09,480 tour dates. I don't know. There's something about it that 260 00:14:09,639 --> 00:14:12,960 just gives me the creeps, and I think to myself, well, 261 00:14:13,039 --> 00:14:15,879 I have no doubt that the conversation with Hinckley might 262 00:14:15,960 --> 00:14:18,440 be interesting. I don't want to do anything that's going 263 00:14:18,519 --> 00:14:21,559 to promote that guy, or that's going to say we 264 00:14:21,679 --> 00:14:25,679 think this guy is particularly worth spending forty five minutes with. 265 00:14:26,240 --> 00:14:27,759 Speaker 3: Now, I'm sure that there are people who are going 266 00:14:27,799 --> 00:14:29,639 to say, okay, but then why are you spending time 267 00:14:29,679 --> 00:14:33,000 talking about this article about him. There's a whole lot 268 00:14:33,159 --> 00:14:36,720 more I think that needs to be examined, and this 269 00:14:36,799 --> 00:14:40,279 author is doing it through the lens of Hinckley because 270 00:14:40,279 --> 00:14:45,600 he is a he's a living political assassin. He's not incarcerated, 271 00:14:45,919 --> 00:14:48,720 he was not killed. He is here, he is out, 272 00:14:48,799 --> 00:14:52,240 he is among us. The way that he is examining 273 00:14:52,519 --> 00:14:57,440 Hinckley and his motivations for attempt to intershoot the president, 274 00:14:58,080 --> 00:15:02,600 I think are very They say a lot larger things 275 00:15:02,679 --> 00:15:06,759 about our culture than just about him by himself, and 276 00:15:06,799 --> 00:15:09,000 that is why we're willing to have a conversation about 277 00:15:09,000 --> 00:15:13,320 this article, but not with Hinckley himself. In twenty twenty two, 278 00:15:13,519 --> 00:15:16,279 not long after his mother died, the last of those 279 00:15:16,360 --> 00:15:21,200 restrictions were lifted, more than four decades after shooting Ronald Reagan, 280 00:15:21,519 --> 00:15:25,080 along with a secret Service agent named Timothy McCarthy, a 281 00:15:25,080 --> 00:15:29,679 police officer named Thomas Delante, and Reagan's press secretary James Brady, 282 00:15:29,879 --> 00:15:33,159 who was left permanently disabled. He was, at sixty seven 283 00:15:33,240 --> 00:15:36,559 years of age, truly free. Hinkley had by then opened 284 00:15:36,600 --> 00:15:41,000 a Twitter account and amassed thousands of followers. On June fifteenth, 285 00:15:41,039 --> 00:15:43,799 twenty twenty two, the day the restrictions were lifted, he 286 00:15:43,879 --> 00:15:47,519 posted the following quote after forty one years, two months, 287 00:15:47,559 --> 00:15:52,159 and fifteen days freedom at last end quote. His following grew, 288 00:15:52,200 --> 00:15:54,480 and he quickly began to use his platform to release 289 00:15:54,559 --> 00:15:57,600 music and promote upcoming gigs. He announced a total of 290 00:15:57,600 --> 00:16:01,240 a dozen performances. Unsurprising, these shows got a lot of 291 00:16:01,279 --> 00:16:03,720 attention and began to sell out, but every single one 292 00:16:03,759 --> 00:16:05,799 of them was canceled before he could play as a 293 00:16:05,799 --> 00:16:10,000 result of backlash, including an anonymous threatening emails received by 294 00:16:10,000 --> 00:16:14,039 the venues. And I remember very distinctly when our own 295 00:16:14,080 --> 00:16:17,879 Williamsburg Regional Library up here, which has a beautiful auditorium, 296 00:16:18,519 --> 00:16:21,080 was advertising on their page, Hey, John Hinckley is going 297 00:16:21,120 --> 00:16:23,840 to do a concert here. There was immediate backlash from 298 00:16:23,840 --> 00:16:27,279 the entire community. They were like, why would you put 299 00:16:27,360 --> 00:16:29,480 him on your stage? Why would you do that? The 300 00:16:29,519 --> 00:16:32,440 man tried to assassinate the president. Why would you put 301 00:16:32,519 --> 00:16:34,840 him on there? And almost immediately they had to cancel 302 00:16:34,919 --> 00:16:35,240 the show. 303 00:16:35,559 --> 00:16:38,519 Speaker 2: I understand it. When they put other dates in other 304 00:16:38,519 --> 00:16:41,399 parts of the country, people push back hard, and I 305 00:16:41,559 --> 00:16:44,679 get it. I'm not a proponent of cancel culture or 306 00:16:44,720 --> 00:16:46,759 any of that makes me roll my eyes a bit. 307 00:16:47,080 --> 00:16:49,879 I get why people were upset. This guy is a 308 00:16:50,159 --> 00:16:54,879 presidential assassin. He shot for people, And I don't know why, 309 00:16:55,080 --> 00:16:57,320 of all the people on the planet and all the 310 00:16:57,360 --> 00:17:01,320 singer songwriters, why do we have to promote John Hinckley. 311 00:17:01,360 --> 00:17:05,079 I completely understand it. So the article continues. This made 312 00:17:05,200 --> 00:17:10,200 Hinckley a figure of Purian interest on social media. When 313 00:17:10,200 --> 00:17:14,000 he posted about his excitement for an upcoming show, for instance, 314 00:17:14,039 --> 00:17:16,440 along with a selfie in which he stared directly at 315 00:17:16,480 --> 00:17:20,720 the camera with a glazed and entirely effectless expression. I 316 00:17:20,839 --> 00:17:25,160 just picture him with no emotion. The replies were a 317 00:17:25,240 --> 00:17:29,279 chorus of ironic quips and jokes. Someone replied with a 318 00:17:29,359 --> 00:17:34,000 jiff of Travis Bickle, that's the killer in Taxi Driver clapping, 319 00:17:34,200 --> 00:17:37,720 a reference to Hinckley's most famous inspiration for his crime 320 00:17:37,960 --> 00:17:41,599 and obsession with Taxi Driver and with Jody Foster, who 321 00:17:41,599 --> 00:17:45,839 played the teenage prostitute Iris in the film. Quote haven't 322 00:17:45,880 --> 00:17:49,039 heard his new stuff, but I like his earlier work. 323 00:17:49,400 --> 00:17:54,000 Unquote read another jokes about Hinckley's early work follow him 324 00:17:54,119 --> 00:17:57,640 everywhere online. For a majority of people who encountered his 325 00:17:57,759 --> 00:18:02,720 internet presence, Hinckley was an absurd and quintessentially American aberration, 326 00:18:03,119 --> 00:18:06,880 a guy who shot and very nearly killed president and 327 00:18:07,000 --> 00:18:09,839 was somehow still alive to sing his songs about peace 328 00:18:10,200 --> 00:18:11,680 and love and redemption. 329 00:18:12,200 --> 00:18:15,400 Speaker 3: It's a unique place that he finds himself in. I 330 00:18:15,440 --> 00:18:18,599 think I would put it right on par with say 331 00:18:18,799 --> 00:18:23,359 Leslie van Houghton, who received parole a year ago, the 332 00:18:23,480 --> 00:18:26,519 last of the Manson family killers, or the most recent 333 00:18:26,559 --> 00:18:29,319 of the Manson family killers to be paroled. I think 334 00:18:29,359 --> 00:18:31,839 that would be tantamount to Leslie van Houghton deciding to 335 00:18:31,880 --> 00:18:34,720 go on speaking to her, Why do you want to 336 00:18:34,759 --> 00:18:38,720 support someone who has done these horrible things? And yet 337 00:18:38,799 --> 00:18:41,400 it does amaze me that he has this many followers 338 00:18:41,400 --> 00:18:43,960 on social media. I saw the face you just made. 339 00:18:44,160 --> 00:18:46,279 There's an ick factor to it almost. 340 00:18:46,400 --> 00:18:47,559 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's cringey. 341 00:18:47,759 --> 00:18:50,880 Speaker 3: It really is to use the word the youth would use. 342 00:18:50,960 --> 00:18:53,599 You said, Actually, I've been told that the youth are 343 00:18:53,640 --> 00:18:55,000 no longer using cringey. 344 00:18:55,440 --> 00:18:56,680 Speaker 2: What are they saying cringe? 345 00:18:57,160 --> 00:19:00,119 Speaker 3: I don't actually even know, But whatever it is, I'm 346 00:19:00,160 --> 00:19:02,200 going to have to adjust my slang accordingly. 347 00:19:02,799 --> 00:19:06,039 Speaker 2: You're going to be surrounded by young people in what 348 00:19:06,240 --> 00:19:06,680 a week? 349 00:19:07,160 --> 00:19:09,200 Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm going to have to learn all the newest 350 00:19:09,400 --> 00:19:11,720 pieces of slang and so on and so forth. And 351 00:19:12,039 --> 00:19:14,559 even if I don't like, actually go out and look 352 00:19:14,599 --> 00:19:17,319 for it. It's going to find me. Nonetheless, this is 353 00:19:17,359 --> 00:19:19,680 what happens when you work in a high school exactly. 354 00:19:20,079 --> 00:19:22,680 Speaker 2: So if cringe is not the word, I'm sure you'll 355 00:19:22,680 --> 00:19:23,599 find out what it is. 356 00:19:24,440 --> 00:19:27,400 Speaker 3: Yeah, at some point or another. But I will still 357 00:19:27,400 --> 00:19:30,839 continue to use cringe and cringe, and that will usually 358 00:19:30,880 --> 00:19:33,480 make them roll their eyes again, missterillane. Nobody says that anymore, 359 00:19:34,880 --> 00:19:37,400 all right. The article continues. In forty three years after 360 00:19:37,440 --> 00:19:40,519 that near assassination in Butler, Pennsylvania, a twenty year old 361 00:19:40,519 --> 00:19:44,000 loaner named Thomas Matthew Crooks took several shots at Donald 362 00:19:44,039 --> 00:19:46,880 Trump with a semi automatic rifle, wounding the former president's 363 00:19:46,920 --> 00:19:49,720 right here and plunging an already darkened Catoch world even 364 00:19:49,759 --> 00:19:53,000 deeper into darkness and chaos. Hinkley now became the focus 365 00:19:53,079 --> 00:19:55,720 of a different kind of interest. After the shooting, he 366 00:19:55,799 --> 00:19:58,279 posted the following message on the platform now known as 367 00:19:58,519 --> 00:20:01,160 X quote violence is not the way to go. Give 368 00:20:01,200 --> 00:20:05,079 piece a chance. He was quoting his old hero John Lennon, 369 00:20:05,160 --> 00:20:07,920 who was himself murdered by a strange and sick and 370 00:20:07,960 --> 00:20:10,839 lonely young man with a gun. The tweet provoked a 371 00:20:10,920 --> 00:20:14,480 by now predictable response. There were gifts of Jodie Foster 372 00:20:14,599 --> 00:20:18,200 looking haunted, hope she sees this bro and of Travis 373 00:20:18,200 --> 00:20:20,960 Bickle talking to himself in the Mirror. There was an 374 00:20:21,039 --> 00:20:24,200 article in the Guardian headlined man who tried to assassinate 375 00:20:24,240 --> 00:20:27,480 Reagan says violence is not the way to go. Mostly 376 00:20:27,519 --> 00:20:29,720 people seemed to be able to respond to the message 377 00:20:29,759 --> 00:20:33,000 only as evidence of the further derangement of things. 378 00:20:33,559 --> 00:20:37,640 Speaker 2: I get the derangement response, because, man, is it rich 379 00:20:38,279 --> 00:20:42,799 listening to Hinckley quote John Lennon, who was himself assassinated 380 00:20:42,960 --> 00:20:46,799 in nineteen eighty. That's another situation where I remember exactly 381 00:20:46,839 --> 00:20:48,200 where I was and. 382 00:20:48,160 --> 00:20:49,400 Speaker 3: Where are you. I'm just curious. 383 00:20:49,519 --> 00:20:53,519 Speaker 2: I was at home and the news came in that evening. 384 00:20:54,240 --> 00:20:58,359 It was December eighth, I believe, nineteen eighty, and I 385 00:20:58,440 --> 00:21:03,039 just remember being so profound saddened by this news. John 386 00:21:03,119 --> 00:21:07,680 Lennon never did anything to anybody and was supposedly someone 387 00:21:07,720 --> 00:21:11,960 that Mark David Chapman, his assassin, looked up to. The 388 00:21:12,000 --> 00:21:15,640 whole thing is just so profoundly sad. There's something that's 389 00:21:15,920 --> 00:21:22,200 really almost offensive about Hinkley quoting John Lennon. He's right, 390 00:21:22,359 --> 00:21:24,920 violence is not the way to go. I'm not sure 391 00:21:24,920 --> 00:21:26,279 he's the right messenger here. 392 00:21:26,880 --> 00:21:27,720 Speaker 3: No exactly. 393 00:21:28,279 --> 00:21:31,599 Speaker 2: Hinkley might agree in a sense, he had long held 394 00:21:31,640 --> 00:21:34,039 the belief that the country was too divided and there 395 00:21:34,039 --> 00:21:37,319 were too many guns. Quote. The political climate here in 396 00:21:37,319 --> 00:21:40,400 America is just so volatile, he told me. When I 397 00:21:40,440 --> 00:21:42,839 got him on the phone, I asked him how he 398 00:21:42,920 --> 00:21:46,000 felt about the whole thing. There was a long silence, 399 00:21:46,079 --> 00:21:49,319 and eventually I heard him sigh. He's a slow talker 400 00:21:49,640 --> 00:21:52,799 who often pauses at length between thoughts, and in the 401 00:21:52,799 --> 00:21:55,519 short time I had known him, I had learned to 402 00:21:55,720 --> 00:21:58,519 write out the silences to let him continue at his 403 00:21:58,559 --> 00:22:02,160 own pace. He said, then, in a tone of stoic resignation, 404 00:22:02,519 --> 00:22:03,880 I wish it hadn't happened. 405 00:22:04,359 --> 00:22:06,720 Speaker 3: It was a couple of days after the shooting, late 406 00:22:06,720 --> 00:22:09,519 at night in Dublin, where I live, and early evening 407 00:22:09,559 --> 00:22:12,799 in Williamsburg. He was getting a lot of media requests, 408 00:22:12,880 --> 00:22:15,480 he said, but had so far turned them all down. 409 00:22:16,079 --> 00:22:19,720 He was an object once again of intense curiosity, as 410 00:22:19,759 --> 00:22:22,599 though having shot at a president and lived, he was 411 00:22:22,640 --> 00:22:25,680 somehow a proxy for crooks who was killed just seconds 412 00:22:25,720 --> 00:22:29,079 after his attempt on Trump's life. It's possible, after all, 413 00:22:29,200 --> 00:22:31,640 that we will never know what led crooks to try 414 00:22:31,640 --> 00:22:35,079 to kill the former president. But in Hinckley we are 415 00:22:35,200 --> 00:22:39,359 presented with a kind of living antecedent through whose former 416 00:22:39,400 --> 00:22:42,720 delusions we might begin to understand the currents of violence 417 00:22:42,839 --> 00:22:46,119 and culture wide madness that seemed to act so strongly 418 00:22:46,240 --> 00:22:49,799 on certain solitary and obsessive men who continued to cause 419 00:22:49,839 --> 00:22:53,319 such turbulence in the flow of American history. That line. 420 00:22:53,359 --> 00:22:55,799 At that point, when I started reading this article, I 421 00:22:55,839 --> 00:22:58,799 was like, Oh, this is exactly what I wanted us 422 00:22:58,839 --> 00:23:01,759 to talk about. I could not have articulated it in 423 00:23:01,880 --> 00:23:06,440 such a coherent and cohesive manner. Props to Mark O'Connell. 424 00:23:06,680 --> 00:23:08,920 This is exactly what I wanted to say, but I 425 00:23:08,960 --> 00:23:11,519 didn't have the capability to say it that way. I 426 00:23:11,599 --> 00:23:13,799 was so excited to read this article. I was all 427 00:23:13,839 --> 00:23:14,680 in at this point. 428 00:23:15,039 --> 00:23:19,359 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's beautifully written. You're listening to mindover Murder. We'll 429 00:23:19,359 --> 00:23:25,880 be right back after this word from our sponsors. We're 430 00:23:25,920 --> 00:23:29,119 back here at mindover Murder. Before we get back to 431 00:23:29,160 --> 00:23:31,559 the podcast, just wanted to remind you that we have 432 00:23:31,599 --> 00:23:35,680 a go fundme effort going on right now. This campaign 433 00:23:35,799 --> 00:23:38,680 is designed to help us raise funds to help promote 434 00:23:38,880 --> 00:23:43,240 Mind over Murder and specifically to push the Colonial Parkway 435 00:23:43,319 --> 00:23:47,359 murders investigation forward. We'd love it if you could support 436 00:23:47,440 --> 00:23:50,799 us in any way that you can. Any donation from 437 00:23:50,880 --> 00:23:54,000 five dollars to whatever you can afford is very much 438 00:23:54,000 --> 00:23:57,160 appreciated and will be incredibly helpful. The link is in 439 00:23:57,200 --> 00:24:01,279 the show notes and in our social media pages. As always, 440 00:24:01,279 --> 00:24:05,000 thanks for your support. Now back to mind over Murder. 441 00:24:05,880 --> 00:24:10,559 This tragedy recently with Thomas Matthew Crooks and his attempted 442 00:24:10,640 --> 00:24:15,000 assassination of former President Trump. I know they're investigating what 443 00:24:15,279 --> 00:24:18,720 happened that day and the failures of the Secret Service 444 00:24:19,319 --> 00:24:21,839 how Crooks was allowed to get within one hundred and 445 00:24:21,839 --> 00:24:24,920 fifty yards or so of the former president. Although he 446 00:24:24,960 --> 00:24:29,359 didn't kill Trump, he did kill a former firefighter who 447 00:24:29,440 --> 00:24:32,519 was there with his family, and then terribly injured two 448 00:24:32,640 --> 00:24:36,559 other people who were also listening to former President Trump's speak. 449 00:24:37,039 --> 00:24:42,440 There's intense curiosity as to what Crook's motivations may have been, 450 00:24:42,640 --> 00:24:45,640 and I was reading an article this morning preparing for today. 451 00:24:46,000 --> 00:24:49,200 This doesn't even seem to be something that was politically motivated. 452 00:24:49,240 --> 00:24:52,079 When it comes to Crooks, he was a registered Republican, 453 00:24:52,160 --> 00:24:54,279 but he'd given a small amount of money, I think 454 00:24:54,319 --> 00:24:58,920 fifteen dollars to a group that promotes progressive values. He 455 00:24:58,960 --> 00:25:03,960 had researched both former President Trump's whereabouts as well as 456 00:25:04,359 --> 00:25:09,440 current President Biden's whereabouts, and even looked into senior people 457 00:25:09,480 --> 00:25:14,599 within the Biden administration. It almost feels apolitical somehow. On 458 00:25:14,680 --> 00:25:19,119 Crooks's part, he died almost immediately within seconds of shooting 459 00:25:19,119 --> 00:25:21,839 at the former president. He was dead shot by a 460 00:25:21,880 --> 00:25:24,960 Secret Service sniper. I know that there are a lot 461 00:25:24,960 --> 00:25:28,359 of people, including the team that's currently investigating what went 462 00:25:28,440 --> 00:25:32,160 wrong here, that would dearly love to have talked to Crooks, 463 00:25:32,279 --> 00:25:36,799 but obviously that can't happen. We find ourselves returning to 464 00:25:37,039 --> 00:25:42,519 have conversations with people like Hinckley. I understand the intense 465 00:25:42,839 --> 00:25:48,079 curiosity and our desire to learn more. Can we make 466 00:25:48,119 --> 00:25:49,440 any sense out of any of this? 467 00:25:50,240 --> 00:25:52,599 Speaker 3: I had by then been talking to Hinckley for three 468 00:25:52,640 --> 00:25:54,960 and a half months since a New York Post story 469 00:25:55,039 --> 00:25:57,759 about the cancelation of his shows, in which he'd called 470 00:25:57,839 --> 00:26:01,920 himself a victim of cancel culture, had gained widespread attention online. 471 00:26:02,680 --> 00:26:06,799 This exact pattern. Hinckley announces a concert, online, commenters make 472 00:26:06,880 --> 00:26:10,839 jokes about his early work, the venue receives backlash and cancels. 473 00:26:10,880 --> 00:26:13,640 The show had played out a dozen or so times 474 00:26:13,640 --> 00:26:17,200 since Hinckley's restrictions were lifted. It struck me as both 475 00:26:17,359 --> 00:26:20,400 farcical and poignant, the way that he kept being thwarted 476 00:26:20,440 --> 00:26:22,759 in his efforts to share his music with the world. 477 00:26:23,240 --> 00:26:25,799 Speaker 2: The song crimea River comes to mind, doesn't it. 478 00:26:26,160 --> 00:26:29,960 Speaker 3: I was thinking world's smallest violin exactly in the world's 479 00:26:29,960 --> 00:26:30,799 sadist story. 480 00:26:31,599 --> 00:26:34,920 Speaker 2: In mid May, I went to Virginia, this is Williamsburg 481 00:26:35,039 --> 00:26:37,759 Now to spend time with him. We talked about his music, 482 00:26:37,880 --> 00:26:41,160 and about his strange and terrible past, and about his effort, 483 00:26:41,160 --> 00:26:44,160 at age sixty nine, to move on from it. I 484 00:26:44,279 --> 00:26:46,880 talked to people who collaborated with him on getting his 485 00:26:47,000 --> 00:26:50,440 music out to the world. A promoter, a guitar teacher, 486 00:26:50,799 --> 00:26:53,599 a graphic designer who worked on his records and merchandise, 487 00:26:54,160 --> 00:26:57,799 a woman whom he referred to as his assistant. When 488 00:26:57,839 --> 00:27:00,960 I thought about the disturbing things he did nineteen eighty one, 489 00:27:01,440 --> 00:27:06,279 there was a distinct sense of cognitive dissonance. I found 490 00:27:06,279 --> 00:27:08,799 it hard to square that twenty five year old mad 491 00:27:08,880 --> 00:27:12,319 man with the quiet and melancholy older fellow who just 492 00:27:12,359 --> 00:27:14,799 wanted to put out what he called his quote, message 493 00:27:14,839 --> 00:27:18,359 of peace unquote. They were different men, but also were 494 00:27:18,440 --> 00:27:20,440 very much not I think. 495 00:27:20,240 --> 00:27:24,519 Speaker 3: This dichotomy of Hinckley, where there is here is what 496 00:27:24,599 --> 00:27:28,160 he did versus what he is now. I find that 497 00:27:28,240 --> 00:27:32,559 really compelling and interesting. I don't know that Hinckley is 498 00:27:32,599 --> 00:27:35,279 the sort of person if I saw him in Williamsburg, 499 00:27:35,359 --> 00:27:39,559 And interestingly enough, I have never had a John Hinckley sighting. Bill. 500 00:27:39,599 --> 00:27:41,079 I remember one of the first times that you were 501 00:27:41,119 --> 00:27:43,240 down here, you and I had a Bruce Hornsby sighting, 502 00:27:43,480 --> 00:27:46,599 and I call it Bruce in the wild. Bruce Hornsby 503 00:27:46,680 --> 00:27:48,400 just happened to be sitting at a booth at Plaza 504 00:27:48,440 --> 00:27:51,079 Azteca where the two of us were having dinner, which 505 00:27:51,119 --> 00:27:53,640 is pretty jazzy thing for both of us. It was neat. 506 00:27:53,759 --> 00:27:55,759 I've lived here my whole entire life. I see Bruce 507 00:27:55,759 --> 00:27:58,160 Hornsby a lot. My dad actually sees him even more. 508 00:27:58,200 --> 00:27:59,920 He's on a first name basis with him, which is 509 00:28:00,000 --> 00:28:01,880 it's pretty cool. But I have never had a John 510 00:28:01,960 --> 00:28:05,599 Hinckley sighting. Part of me does wonder why that might be. 511 00:28:05,960 --> 00:28:08,599 I am constantly out and about running errands and stuff 512 00:28:08,640 --> 00:28:12,240 like that. But I've officially seen Bruce Hornsby out in 513 00:28:12,279 --> 00:28:14,079 the wild more often than I've seen John Hinckley out 514 00:28:14,079 --> 00:28:16,279 in the wild. And I'm always a little curious about 515 00:28:16,279 --> 00:28:19,079 why that is. I am wondering how low a profile 516 00:28:19,119 --> 00:28:20,240 he actually keeps. 517 00:28:20,599 --> 00:28:23,279 Speaker 2: I see Bruce Hornsby as a force for good music 518 00:28:23,480 --> 00:28:27,519 and lots of worthwhile social causes. I've also met and 519 00:28:27,559 --> 00:28:30,119 spent the day with Bruce Hornsby some years ago when 520 00:28:30,119 --> 00:28:33,359 I was working for ASCAP. If I had the opportunity, 521 00:28:33,480 --> 00:28:36,799 I might reintroduce myself to Bruce and remind him where 522 00:28:36,799 --> 00:28:39,160 we met. But I wouldn't do it at dinner, because 523 00:28:39,319 --> 00:28:42,480 you don't interrupt someone when they're having dinner at Plaza ASTech. 524 00:28:42,559 --> 00:28:44,680 Speaker 3: How you said Plaza Azteka. 525 00:28:44,799 --> 00:28:48,880 Speaker 2: Yeah. I see Bruce Hornsby as nothing but a great 526 00:28:48,920 --> 00:28:53,319 ambassador for the community of Williamsburg. I guess if you 527 00:28:53,440 --> 00:28:56,279 hung out even more than you do now in bookstores 528 00:28:56,319 --> 00:29:00,480 and music stores, you might run into Hinckley. I wouldn't 529 00:29:00,480 --> 00:29:01,720 go out of my way for the guy. 530 00:29:02,240 --> 00:29:05,000 Speaker 3: But it is interesting though, that, because this is still 531 00:29:05,000 --> 00:29:08,759 a relatively small town. Like all things considered, Williamsburg still 532 00:29:08,799 --> 00:29:10,960 a small town. It's a big, little small town, but 533 00:29:10,960 --> 00:29:13,519 it's still small town. I had initially worried it would 534 00:29:13,519 --> 00:29:15,079 be hard to write about Hinckley in a way that 535 00:29:15,200 --> 00:29:19,160 wasn't exploitative or otherwise morally compromising. What if he was 536 00:29:19,160 --> 00:29:21,960 still in some way mentally unstable. What if he was 537 00:29:21,960 --> 00:29:24,599 so heavily medicated or so badly damaged by his own 538 00:29:24,640 --> 00:29:26,960 past that it would be impossible to conduct the sort 539 00:29:27,000 --> 00:29:29,480 of conversation I needed to have with him in order 540 00:29:29,519 --> 00:29:30,640 to write about him. 541 00:29:31,160 --> 00:29:34,880 Speaker 2: Over the conversations I had with Hinckley, these doubts fell away. 542 00:29:35,440 --> 00:29:37,480 I eventually came to think of him as a rip 543 00:29:37,559 --> 00:29:40,720 van Winkle figure who had been confined for almost the 544 00:29:40,920 --> 00:29:44,559 entirety of the era of modern telecommunications and had not 545 00:29:44,799 --> 00:29:48,400 directly experienced the seismic ships that had taken place in 546 00:29:48,400 --> 00:29:51,759 the culture he was emerging back into. And that culture 547 00:29:51,839 --> 00:29:57,960 is one where Hinkley's particular derangements, obsessive identification with fictional 548 00:29:58,079 --> 00:30:02,359 characters and celebrities, delusion of grandeur, the conjuring of rich 549 00:30:02,440 --> 00:30:06,839 alternative realities had become strangely normalized, at least on the 550 00:30:06,880 --> 00:30:11,720 platforms where Hinckley now interacts with his fans, platforms where 551 00:30:11,799 --> 00:30:15,039 it must be said, a sufficiently committed loner can become 552 00:30:15,160 --> 00:30:18,839 infamous overnight without firing a single shot. And the more 553 00:30:18,880 --> 00:30:22,599 I considered him, the more strangely, serene Hinckley seemed to 554 00:30:22,640 --> 00:30:25,559 me against the context of everything that was going on, 555 00:30:26,160 --> 00:30:29,400 at least not the inscrutable political violence of which he 556 00:30:29,519 --> 00:30:32,160 himself was such a highly charged symbol. 557 00:30:32,599 --> 00:30:37,039 Speaker 3: It is very interesting Hinckley went into Saint Elizabeth in 558 00:30:37,279 --> 00:30:41,240 nineteen eighty one eighty two, the year I was born, 559 00:30:41,559 --> 00:30:45,440 and he finally was released from all restrictions on that 560 00:30:45,680 --> 00:30:49,200 two years ago. So that is a really long stretch 561 00:30:49,240 --> 00:30:52,720 of time to be out of sync with the As 562 00:30:52,799 --> 00:30:57,000 mister O'Connell puts, some seismic shifts in culture that happened. 563 00:30:57,440 --> 00:31:00,920 I'm from the generation I'm I guess xeniel is how 564 00:31:00,960 --> 00:31:04,599 you call me. I'm a gen X slash millennial at Xeniel. 565 00:31:05,039 --> 00:31:09,279 I remember having a childhood without internet and then going 566 00:31:09,319 --> 00:31:12,359 to college with it being full steam, and now I 567 00:31:12,400 --> 00:31:15,279 can't imagine a situation in which I wouldn't have an 568 00:31:15,279 --> 00:31:18,880 Internet connected device somewhere. Hinkley never got any of that. 569 00:31:19,200 --> 00:31:22,839 He was in Sant Elizabeths the whole entire time. It's 570 00:31:22,880 --> 00:31:26,519 got to be I think the Rip van Winkle reference 571 00:31:26,839 --> 00:31:28,599 is accurate. And of course the English teacher and me 572 00:31:28,680 --> 00:31:32,119 loves that the literary character took a nap for many years. 573 00:31:32,640 --> 00:31:35,559 I think that's really apt. And so I think this 574 00:31:35,599 --> 00:31:39,880 is a very interesting paragraph here about Hinckley and reminding 575 00:31:39,920 --> 00:31:44,160 everybody this is a guy who went to institutionalization for 576 00:31:44,279 --> 00:31:46,759 this horrible crime, and when he came out, the entire 577 00:31:46,799 --> 00:31:47,599 world had changed. 578 00:31:48,000 --> 00:31:51,279 Speaker 2: He was in St. Elizabeth's for your entire life basically 579 00:31:51,559 --> 00:31:52,119 pretty much. 580 00:31:52,359 --> 00:31:55,880 Speaker 3: Yeah, And as I said earlier in the podcast, growing up, 581 00:31:56,000 --> 00:31:59,400 we would always hear because the local newspaper report on it. 582 00:31:59,680 --> 00:32:02,599 Hankley is out in a supervised visit with his parents. 583 00:32:03,160 --> 00:32:06,880 There was a huge to do when he was allowed 584 00:32:06,960 --> 00:32:11,240 to have weekend visits and then longer and longer, and 585 00:32:11,559 --> 00:32:14,359 there was quite a bit of coverage when he was 586 00:32:14,440 --> 00:32:17,559 finally released from all of the restrictions at Saint Elizabeth 587 00:32:17,599 --> 00:32:20,200 and was allowed to live here permanently. I'm sure that 588 00:32:20,279 --> 00:32:22,160 there was a heck of a flap in King's Mill 589 00:32:22,480 --> 00:32:26,119 that what a conversation to have the neighborhood assassin is 590 00:32:26,160 --> 00:32:28,960 coming home to live. That had to have been an 591 00:32:28,960 --> 00:32:32,960 interesting conversation. Okay, article continues. I come from Ireland, a 592 00:32:33,039 --> 00:32:36,319 country with a long and complicated history of political violence. 593 00:32:36,759 --> 00:32:39,640 For most of this history, which stretches back through centuries 594 00:32:39,640 --> 00:32:43,039 of colonial dispossession. Such violence arose, in one way or 595 00:32:43,039 --> 00:32:46,799 another out of a struggle for national self determination. When 596 00:32:46,839 --> 00:32:49,720 what are now called non state actors committed deeds of 597 00:32:49,799 --> 00:32:52,319 terror and violence, they did so by and large within 598 00:32:52,359 --> 00:32:56,000 the context of a coherent political project. Say what you like, 599 00:32:56,119 --> 00:32:59,240 for instance, about the IRA's failed attempt in nineteen eighty 600 00:32:59,240 --> 00:33:02,559 four to assass Margaret Thatcher by blowing up a hotel 601 00:33:02,599 --> 00:33:06,119 in Brighton, but you can't say that it was totally inexplicable. 602 00:33:06,559 --> 00:33:09,160 You didn't have to agree morally with the aims or 603 00:33:09,200 --> 00:33:12,240 the methodologies of violence to understand them. 604 00:33:12,759 --> 00:33:17,119 Speaker 2: What is disturbing for me is that these political assassins 605 00:33:17,119 --> 00:33:19,920 here in the United States, so much of it just 606 00:33:20,000 --> 00:33:27,160 seems aimless and baseless and completely pathetic. I understand why 607 00:33:27,599 --> 00:33:30,839 the people of Ireland, and particularly Northern Ireland may have 608 00:33:30,920 --> 00:33:34,680 wanted to kill Margaret Thatcher. I'm not saying I think 609 00:33:34,720 --> 00:33:38,240 that was a good idea or that she necessarily deserved it. 610 00:33:38,680 --> 00:33:41,960 At least there's a political means to an end here. 611 00:33:42,480 --> 00:33:45,920 Political assassinations in the United States, for the most part way, 612 00:33:46,039 --> 00:33:50,640 particularly when the assassin survives and has an opportunity, perhaps 613 00:33:50,720 --> 00:33:54,200 to be heard in court or speak. At some point, 614 00:33:54,480 --> 00:33:57,000 none of it ever seems to make any sense to me. 615 00:33:57,480 --> 00:34:01,799 It's all about self aggrandizement. They're pretty pathetic and this 616 00:34:02,000 --> 00:34:06,000 is just their way of achieving fame infamy perhaps. 617 00:34:06,519 --> 00:34:08,639 Speaker 3: Yeah, there was an excellent podcast out a couple of 618 00:34:08,719 --> 00:34:11,880 years ago from our friends over at Tenderfoot TV called 619 00:34:11,920 --> 00:34:15,079 the RFK Tapes, and that was a lot of discussion 620 00:34:15,119 --> 00:34:19,840 about Robert Kennedy's assassination at dvances and the motivations behind 621 00:34:19,840 --> 00:34:23,400 that one have been hotly debated. Very interesting stuff. But 622 00:34:23,559 --> 00:34:27,360 I like your characterization of the aimless. It feels like, well, 623 00:34:27,599 --> 00:34:30,800 what is the point in this? I don't know enough 624 00:34:30,800 --> 00:34:34,719 about RFK and his political ideology to be able to 625 00:34:34,800 --> 00:34:37,800 pinpoint or reason why it would have wanted him dead. 626 00:34:38,440 --> 00:34:41,239 What was the point of that he was universally beloved 627 00:34:41,280 --> 00:34:43,599 as far as I can tell. What is the point 628 00:34:43,679 --> 00:34:46,079 in taking out this guy who was really only trying 629 00:34:46,119 --> 00:34:49,599 to do good things for the country. I will never 630 00:34:49,679 --> 00:34:51,000 understand it, agreed. 631 00:34:51,400 --> 00:34:54,480 Speaker 2: O'Connell continues, and this picks up on some of these themes. 632 00:34:54,960 --> 00:34:58,360 The tradition of political violence in the United States is 633 00:34:58,519 --> 00:35:01,559 of an entirely different way, and it seems to me 634 00:35:02,079 --> 00:35:07,079 to arise out of the conjoined American traditions of entrepreneurial 635 00:35:07,119 --> 00:35:11,719 individualism and gun ownership. The presiding archetype of such violence 636 00:35:11,719 --> 00:35:14,880 in American life is not a revolutionary in a balaklava 637 00:35:15,039 --> 00:35:19,440 backed by a paramilitary organization, but a lonely oddball with 638 00:35:19,519 --> 00:35:24,719 a firearm fixation and a complex of conspiratorial grievances, whose 639 00:35:24,760 --> 00:35:28,280 relationships of the political dynamics of his country is often 640 00:35:28,480 --> 00:35:33,480 highly inscrutable or in any case, disconnected from any organized 641 00:35:33,519 --> 00:35:40,280 political project. This is a confused and confusing figure. Lee 642 00:35:40,320 --> 00:35:46,320 Harvey Oswald, James Earl Ray, these non entities who seized 643 00:35:46,360 --> 00:35:49,400 for themselves a place in history, even a kind of 644 00:35:49,480 --> 00:35:52,559 perverse greatness, by murdering great men. 645 00:35:52,920 --> 00:35:56,039 Speaker 3: Could not have said that or articulated that any better. 646 00:35:56,480 --> 00:36:00,360 Speaker 2: No, it's beautifully written, and he's really capturing the sense 647 00:36:00,400 --> 00:36:03,679 of something that I think we need to be thinking about. 648 00:36:04,119 --> 00:36:07,639 Crooks is another person in this long list of kind 649 00:36:07,639 --> 00:36:11,760 of bizarre nobodies that are going to try to kill 650 00:36:11,920 --> 00:36:14,800 political leaders in a way that doesn't even seem to 651 00:36:14,840 --> 00:36:19,480 make sense. There's no philosophical underpinning here. They just want 652 00:36:19,519 --> 00:36:23,320 to kill this individual to claim their what fifteen minutes 653 00:36:23,360 --> 00:36:25,239 of fame from behind bars. 654 00:36:25,760 --> 00:36:28,920 Speaker 3: John Henckley Junior was both an extreme and an imperfect 655 00:36:28,960 --> 00:36:33,280 example of this archetype, not least because he failed on 656 00:36:33,320 --> 00:36:37,039 a psychological level. He had less in common with practitioners 657 00:36:37,079 --> 00:36:41,119 of political murder from other cultures and times the unknown 658 00:36:41,159 --> 00:36:44,639 assassin of the revolutionary leader Michael Collins during the Irish 659 00:36:44,639 --> 00:36:48,559 Civil War, say Or Carillo princip the Serbian nationalist who 660 00:36:48,599 --> 00:36:52,039 sparked the First World War by killing Archdupe Franz Ferdinand, 661 00:36:52,440 --> 00:36:56,159 than he did with the other major avatar of American carnage, 662 00:36:56,440 --> 00:36:59,920 the mass shooter. He was a lonely and tormented boy 663 00:37:00,159 --> 00:37:03,920 whose mental illness absorbed and intensified many of the dark 664 00:37:04,079 --> 00:37:09,199 energies of American culture, the interplay between cinematic and actual violence, 665 00:37:09,599 --> 00:37:13,440 the devotional relationship with fame, and the conviction that heroic 666 00:37:13,519 --> 00:37:16,719 self definition can be achieved through an act of violence. 667 00:37:17,360 --> 00:37:20,960 His motives were not exactly obscure, but his politics were 668 00:37:21,000 --> 00:37:24,519 incoherent and largely irrelevant to his deed. 669 00:37:25,280 --> 00:37:29,000 Speaker 2: The same can't be confidently said of Thomas Matthew Crooks, 670 00:37:29,199 --> 00:37:33,119 who came within inches of assassinating a former and perhaps 671 00:37:33,159 --> 00:37:36,760 future president not yet at least for the simple reason 672 00:37:36,800 --> 00:37:40,840 that almost nothing can confidently be said of him. Reporters 673 00:37:40,840 --> 00:37:44,239 are sketched a broad outline of his life. Crooks came 674 00:37:44,280 --> 00:37:47,320 from a middle class suburb of Pittsburgh, and high school 675 00:37:47,360 --> 00:37:51,039 classmates described him as intelligent, geeky, and a bit of 676 00:37:51,079 --> 00:37:54,599 a loner. He liked playing video games and shooting guns. 677 00:37:55,119 --> 00:37:57,519 We know that he was a registered Republican, but we 678 00:37:57,599 --> 00:38:00,760 also know that he donated fifteen dollars to any nonprofit 679 00:38:00,920 --> 00:38:05,880 dedicated to increasing voter turnout for Democrats. Having unlocked his phone, 680 00:38:06,000 --> 00:38:08,719 the FBI found that he searched for the date of 681 00:38:08,760 --> 00:38:12,519 both Trump's rally in Butler and the Democratic National Convention, 682 00:38:12,800 --> 00:38:15,480 and for pictures of Biden and Trump, as well as 683 00:38:15,559 --> 00:38:20,400 high level federal appointees in the Biden administration. Maybe there's 684 00:38:20,440 --> 00:38:22,639 a version of this story yet to be told in 685 00:38:22,679 --> 00:38:27,400 which Crooks and his actions do make sense. Maybe investigators 686 00:38:27,480 --> 00:38:30,599 find some detail buried deep in the data hoard, some 687 00:38:30,760 --> 00:38:34,719 glimmering chard left behind in the digital recesses that somehow 688 00:38:34,760 --> 00:38:39,679 illuminates it all. But also maybe not. Maybe unimaginable chaos 689 00:38:39,800 --> 00:38:42,880 was nearly unleashed on the United States for no better 690 00:38:42,920 --> 00:38:45,559 reason than that Butler was a little over an hour's 691 00:38:45,639 --> 00:38:49,880 drive from his parents' house, and maybe Crooks remains legible, 692 00:38:49,960 --> 00:38:53,239 if at all, only as a late and sad entry 693 00:38:53,320 --> 00:38:56,320 into the canon of the lonely American man who takes 694 00:38:56,320 --> 00:38:59,440 a shot of the President, an archetype of which John 695 00:38:59,480 --> 00:39:04,639 Hinckley Junior was until very recently the most vivid contemporary example. 696 00:39:05,320 --> 00:39:08,480 Speaker 3: I don't know where, exactly, if anywhere, it would make 697 00:39:08,599 --> 00:39:11,719 sense for Hinckley to be living in Freedom forty three 698 00:39:11,800 --> 00:39:16,280 years after shooting Ronald Reagan, but Williamsburg, the former capital 699 00:39:16,320 --> 00:39:19,960 of the Virginia Colony, with its restored eighteenth century buildings 700 00:39:20,000 --> 00:39:24,239 and its tourist economy, feels like a particularly strange outcome. 701 00:39:24,840 --> 00:39:28,559 The town, whose historical center bills itself as the world's 702 00:39:28,639 --> 00:39:32,440 largest living history museum, amounts to a sort of immersive 703 00:39:32,599 --> 00:39:38,239 infotainment experience on the theme of America's colonial period. During 704 00:39:38,280 --> 00:39:40,760 my visit there in May, I saw many men in 705 00:39:40,880 --> 00:39:46,039 period garb waistcoats, breeches, tricorn hats, addressing clusters of tourists 706 00:39:46,119 --> 00:39:50,840 in stentorian fashion about Thomas Jefferson and George Washington. There 707 00:39:50,880 --> 00:39:54,800 are frequent outdoor performances by Fife and drum outfits. There 708 00:39:54,840 --> 00:39:57,440 are I would guess, more gift shops per capita than 709 00:39:57,519 --> 00:40:01,000 any American town other than Orlando. I would take exception 710 00:40:01,079 --> 00:40:01,320 with that. 711 00:40:01,440 --> 00:40:04,480 Speaker 2: By the way, I did laugh when I read that, though. 712 00:40:04,239 --> 00:40:07,400 Speaker 3: I don't think that's true. As I walked the broad 713 00:40:07,440 --> 00:40:10,559 promenades of the Historical Center, the only traffic on which 714 00:40:10,679 --> 00:40:13,800 was horse drawn carts full of tourists, I encountered several 715 00:40:13,840 --> 00:40:17,480 groups of small boys fighting pitched battles with wooden swords 716 00:40:17,519 --> 00:40:21,800 and toy muskets. He's not wrong on that part. I 717 00:40:21,920 --> 00:40:24,320 do take a little bit of umbrage on behalf of 718 00:40:24,360 --> 00:40:27,360 my city. We don't have that many gift shops. 719 00:40:27,719 --> 00:40:34,119 Speaker 2: Okay, if you say so, I like Williams work. Just fine. 720 00:40:34,480 --> 00:40:37,079 Speaker 3: I was gonna say, you've been here, Yes, are we 721 00:40:37,280 --> 00:40:38,480 crawling with gish? 722 00:40:39,559 --> 00:40:42,320 Speaker 2: Not that I recall, but perhaps for a Dublin or 723 00:40:42,440 --> 00:40:43,599 it might have felt that way. 724 00:40:44,119 --> 00:40:47,800 Speaker 3: Okay, true enough, true enough, Okay. There is so much 725 00:40:48,320 --> 00:40:53,639 interesting discussion and conversation to continue unpacking with this article 726 00:40:54,000 --> 00:40:55,559 that we are going to bring it to a close 727 00:40:55,639 --> 00:40:57,960 right now. We're about halfway through the article. And for 728 00:40:57,960 --> 00:41:00,280 anybody who thinks that maybe we're taking a little too 729 00:41:00,280 --> 00:41:03,199 long to read this. You can actually have someone at 730 00:41:03,199 --> 00:41:05,079 the New York Times read this to you. There is 731 00:41:05,119 --> 00:41:07,639 a link to the article and that is forty full 732 00:41:07,679 --> 00:41:11,599 minutes long without any of our sparkling and incisive commentary. 733 00:41:11,920 --> 00:41:13,840 So we actually think you're getting the better part of 734 00:41:13,880 --> 00:41:15,760 the deal by listening to the both of us. 735 00:41:16,360 --> 00:41:19,920 Speaker 2: That's true. And I'll bet we charge more reasonable rates 736 00:41:19,960 --> 00:41:21,000 than The New York Times. 737 00:41:21,159 --> 00:41:23,960 Speaker 3: Probably we do. As someone who pays for the Times 738 00:41:24,039 --> 00:41:27,840 every single month, I think we have much more reasonable rates. 739 00:41:28,159 --> 00:41:32,599 We will continue this dissection of this particular piece of 740 00:41:32,679 --> 00:41:35,880 writing in our very next episode. Matt is going to 741 00:41:35,960 --> 00:41:38,320 do it for this episode of mind Over Murder, but 742 00:41:38,360 --> 00:41:40,719 stay tuned for the next one. Thank you so much 743 00:41:40,760 --> 00:41:42,960 for listening. We'll see you next time. 744 00:41:52,239 --> 00:41:55,800 Speaker 1: Mind Over Murder is a production of Absolute Zero and 745 00:41:55,880 --> 00:41:57,280 Another Dog Productions. 746 00:41:57,840 --> 00:42:01,199 Speaker 2: Our executive producers are Bill Thomas and Kristin Dilley. 747 00:42:01,519 --> 00:42:03,960 Speaker 1: Our logo art is by Pamela Arnois. 748 00:42:04,599 --> 00:42:06,679 Speaker 2: Our theme music is by Kevin mcleoud. 749 00:42:07,199 --> 00:42:11,079 Speaker 1: Mind Over Murder is distributed in partnership with crawl Space Media. 750 00:42:11,880 --> 00:42:15,119 Speaker 2: You can follow us on Facebook, Twitter, or Instagram. 751 00:42:15,239 --> 00:42:17,840 Speaker 1: You can also follow our page on the Colonial Parkway 752 00:42:17,920 --> 00:42:19,719 Murders on Facebook. 753 00:42:19,480 --> 00:42:22,519 Speaker 2: And finally, you can follow Bill Thomas on Twitter at 754 00:42:22,559 --> 00:42:24,159 Bill Thomas. Five six. 755 00:42:24,679 --> 00:42:27,760 Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to Mind Over Murder.