WEBVTT 1 00:00:07.639 --> 00:00:11.080 You are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking 2 00:00:11.160 --> 00:00:14.160 killers in true crime history and the authors that have 3 00:00:14.240 --> 00:00:21.519 written about them. Gaesy, Bundy Dahmer, The Nightstalker VTK Every 4 00:00:21.559 --> 00:00:25.280 week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and 5 00:00:25.359 --> 00:00:29.559 infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your 6 00:00:29.559 --> 00:00:40.679 host journalist and author Dan Zufanski, Good Evening. 7 00:00:41.840 --> 00:00:45.439 La Coroner is a gripping true crime biography of doctor 8 00:00:45.520 --> 00:00:51.039 Thomas Nagucci, the controversial coroner to the stars who perform 9 00:00:51.159 --> 00:00:55.679 the autopsies of Marilyn Monroe, Robert F. Kennedy, Natalie Wood, 10 00:00:56.119 --> 00:01:01.640 and hundreds of other notable personalities. An award winning historian 11 00:01:01.640 --> 00:01:06.400 and professor, deafly blends Los Angeles history, death investigation and 12 00:01:06.480 --> 00:01:11.840 forensic science, and Asian American history in a feat of 13 00:01:11.959 --> 00:01:18.200 exquisite storytelling. La Coroner is the first ever biography of 14 00:01:18.239 --> 00:01:22.760 doctor Thomas Nogucci, the Chief Medical Examiner coroner of Los 15 00:01:22.799 --> 00:01:27.920 Angeles County from nineteen sixty seven to nineteen eighty two. 16 00:01:28.239 --> 00:01:33.599 Throughout his illustrious career, doctor Naguci conducted the official autopsies 17 00:01:33.599 --> 00:01:36.200 of some of the most high profile figures of his time. 18 00:01:37.280 --> 00:01:41.799 His elaborate press conferences which often generated more controversy than 19 00:01:41.799 --> 00:01:47.959 they did answers, catapulted him into the public eye. Nogucci 20 00:01:48.079 --> 00:01:51.560 was also the inspiration for the popular nineteen seventies eighties 21 00:01:51.599 --> 00:01:58.719 television drama Quincy Mme starring Jack Klugman, featuring never before 22 00:01:58.799 --> 00:02:04.480 published details about Naguci's most controversial cases. La Coroner is 23 00:02:04.480 --> 00:02:09.159 a meticulously researched biography of a complex man set against 24 00:02:09.159 --> 00:02:12.039 the backdrop of the social and racial politics of the 25 00:02:12.080 --> 00:02:17.400 sixties and seventies and Hollywood celebrity culture. The book that 26 00:02:17.520 --> 00:02:22.479 were featuring this evening is La Coroner, Thomas Negucci and 27 00:02:22.639 --> 00:02:28.080 Death in Hollywood with my special guest historian, professor, and 28 00:02:28.199 --> 00:02:33.120 author and Soon Choi. Welcome to the program, and thank 29 00:02:33.120 --> 00:02:37.800 you very much for this interview and Soon Choi, Oh, 30 00:02:37.840 --> 00:02:42.080 thank you for having me, and congratulations on this incredible book, 31 00:02:42.319 --> 00:02:44.879 La Coroner. Oh. 32 00:02:44.960 --> 00:02:47.960 Thanks, it's very exciting that it's coming out on the 33 00:02:47.960 --> 00:02:48.639 twenty second. 34 00:02:49.240 --> 00:02:53.599 Absolutely. Now, you write in the introduction that you were 35 00:02:53.639 --> 00:02:58.039 introduced to Thomas Negucci and his career through the conspiracy 36 00:02:58.120 --> 00:03:02.759 theories swirling for decades around Merril Monroe and Robert F. Kennedy. 37 00:03:03.479 --> 00:03:07.879 He had an autopsy them and many other celebrities. You're 38 00:03:07.919 --> 00:03:10.479 right that this book is not about celebrity death, however, 39 00:03:11.520 --> 00:03:14.560 so tell us what this book is about and how 40 00:03:14.599 --> 00:03:16.240 you came to be involved. 41 00:03:17.360 --> 00:03:23.199 So that's partially true. I had found Thomas Dagucci had 42 00:03:23.240 --> 00:03:28.159 written a book called Corner, which was a memoir of 43 00:03:28.199 --> 00:03:32.039 his time in the La Corner's office, and it was 44 00:03:32.080 --> 00:03:37.719 published in the early eighties, and I, in the late nineties, 45 00:03:37.800 --> 00:03:41.240 had found a copy of his book in the dollar 46 00:03:41.439 --> 00:03:44.520 bin in the Strand bookstore, and they had these big 47 00:03:44.560 --> 00:03:47.599 in New York City, had these big bins outside, and 48 00:03:47.639 --> 00:03:51.560 I had found a copy of his book and it 49 00:03:51.639 --> 00:03:54.599 had a very graphic cover on it. But what really 50 00:03:54.680 --> 00:04:01.840 struck me was that here was clearly someone who was 51 00:04:02.840 --> 00:04:06.960 in his time famous himself. Right, he's a celebrity Corner 52 00:04:07.800 --> 00:04:11.840 and that, and he was Asian American, and it was 53 00:04:11.840 --> 00:04:15.280 someone I had never heard of. And I am a 54 00:04:15.319 --> 00:04:18.399 mystery to crime buff and I was like, wow, who 55 00:04:18.519 --> 00:04:22.120 is this? And I picked it up and went to 56 00:04:22.199 --> 00:04:24.319 some cafe somewhere, had a cup of coffee and I 57 00:04:24.360 --> 00:04:27.879 was just reading and couldn't put it down. And it 58 00:04:28.000 --> 00:04:32.600 really right. I had known about all the conspiracies surrounding 59 00:04:32.800 --> 00:04:36.360 you know Robert and John Kennedy and also Marilyn Monroe, 60 00:04:36.519 --> 00:04:38.480 and I was really familiar with those, but I had 61 00:04:38.480 --> 00:04:41.600 never heard of Thomas Legucci, and so that kind of 62 00:04:41.639 --> 00:04:44.839 stuck with me, and I hung on to the book. 63 00:04:45.040 --> 00:04:48.319 And subsequent from the time that I had picked up 64 00:04:48.319 --> 00:04:50.839 the book, I had moved several times, and I had 65 00:04:50.879 --> 00:04:55.639 lived overseas and moved all over the US and always 66 00:04:55.680 --> 00:04:59.000 took that book with me, and at various times I 67 00:04:59.000 --> 00:05:02.240 would try you know, I'm a historian, I'm an academic, 68 00:05:02.360 --> 00:05:06.439 and at various times I would pick the project up, thinking, oh, 69 00:05:06.480 --> 00:05:08.959 you know, maybe I should do something with this, and 70 00:05:10.120 --> 00:05:13.720 just you know, never really quite had the time. Until 71 00:05:14.079 --> 00:05:17.199 a little bit before the pandemic. I started thinking, well, 72 00:05:17.240 --> 00:05:20.240 I wonder if there's enough to do an article. And 73 00:05:21.319 --> 00:05:24.879 then indeed there was enough material to do the article. 74 00:05:25.040 --> 00:05:30.680 But one, maybe the only silver lining of the pandemic 75 00:05:30.959 --> 00:05:34.120 was that I had the time to sit and write 76 00:05:34.319 --> 00:05:37.839 the article. Partly, you know, I live in Los Angeles, 77 00:05:38.079 --> 00:05:41.720 and because of the pandemic, I had stopped commuting to 78 00:05:41.839 --> 00:05:45.800 work and was working from home. And by not commuting, 79 00:05:45.959 --> 00:05:48.600 I was saving myself two and a half hours a day, 80 00:05:49.920 --> 00:05:54.000 and so I had this new chunk of time to 81 00:05:54.079 --> 00:05:59.399 do some writing, and the article sort of unfolded from there. 82 00:05:59.560 --> 00:06:04.000 And I found really interesting was that many of the 83 00:06:04.040 --> 00:06:09.199 things I needed, the archival materials, plus you know, everything 84 00:06:09.199 --> 00:06:12.160 else I needed, the people to interview. It was all 85 00:06:12.199 --> 00:06:16.360 here in plain sight. And one thing just sort of 86 00:06:16.439 --> 00:06:20.319 led to another. And here's the book. 87 00:06:22.480 --> 00:06:26.439 You write that your essay the Japanese American Citizens League, 88 00:06:26.639 --> 00:06:30.519 LA Politics and Thomas Nogucci case. This is what this 89 00:06:30.600 --> 00:06:33.079 book is based on. In you won a twenty twenty 90 00:06:33.079 --> 00:06:36.560 one prize for Best Essay from the Historical Society of 91 00:06:36.560 --> 00:06:42.720 Southern California. So let's talk about Thomas Noguchi. He was 92 00:06:42.839 --> 00:06:47.040 educated in Japan. Tell us about his background and when 93 00:06:47.079 --> 00:06:51.360 he immigrated to Southern California in the conditions therein he. 94 00:06:51.839 --> 00:06:57.519 Is a gifted student and he simultaneously pursues a law 95 00:06:57.560 --> 00:07:00.879 degree in a medical degree in Japan. His education is 96 00:07:01.879 --> 00:07:07.720 interrupted by the war and World War two, and in 97 00:07:07.920 --> 00:07:11.000 the aftermath in the fifties. You know, but what he's 98 00:07:11.160 --> 00:07:15.199 really sort of dazzled by in the post war occupation 99 00:07:15.439 --> 00:07:18.680 of Japan by the US, is that he's dazzled by 100 00:07:18.759 --> 00:07:24.319 American science and and he wants to go. He wants 101 00:07:24.360 --> 00:07:28.120 to leave Japan for the US because he thinks this 102 00:07:28.279 --> 00:07:31.360 is the place where he will get the most cutting 103 00:07:31.399 --> 00:07:36.360 age scientific training in medicine in particular. And then so 104 00:07:36.800 --> 00:07:40.360 he decides he's going to go to the US. He 105 00:07:40.480 --> 00:07:44.720 sends out hundreds of letters looking for an internship, and 106 00:07:44.800 --> 00:07:51.079 only one hospital responds. In one university affiliated hospital, Orange 107 00:07:51.079 --> 00:07:56.879 County General Hospital, which is a public hospital in southern 108 00:07:56.879 --> 00:08:02.360 California in Orange County and tied to Lomolinda University, accepts him. 109 00:08:02.439 --> 00:08:07.000 And then a sight unseen, no interview. This is the 110 00:08:07.079 --> 00:08:10.879 nineteen fifties. He takes a huge leap of faith and 111 00:08:11.439 --> 00:08:17.439 winds up in southern California. It's interesting hit for him, 112 00:08:17.879 --> 00:08:23.279 I think is right. There's a sizeable Japanese American community here, 113 00:08:24.079 --> 00:08:30.720 particularly the children of Japanese immigrants who had migrated, you know, 114 00:08:30.759 --> 00:08:34.960 in the early part of the twentieth century and had settled, 115 00:08:35.639 --> 00:08:41.720 and so it is largely second generation. And so here's 116 00:08:41.840 --> 00:08:45.159 Thomas Naguchi. He's part of this new wave of immigration 117 00:08:45.320 --> 00:08:49.679 called the Shinise, meaning new Japanese immigrants that come after 118 00:08:49.720 --> 00:08:54.279 the war. That includes students, it includes war brides, and 119 00:08:54.320 --> 00:08:58.440 so but he settles right in Los Angeles, and it 120 00:08:58.519 --> 00:09:01.720 is a culture shock, not only being in the US, 121 00:09:01.919 --> 00:09:07.159 but also even with you know, his contemporaries Japanese Americans 122 00:09:07.159 --> 00:09:13.519 in southern California and so but this, you know, so 123 00:09:13.639 --> 00:09:16.360 basically what he does is he starts his medical training 124 00:09:16.480 --> 00:09:20.759 all over. He doesn't have a strong grasp of English yet. 125 00:09:21.480 --> 00:09:26.440 And I think one of the big themes that really 126 00:09:26.480 --> 00:09:30.840 stood out for me about Thomas Nagucci was that he 127 00:09:31.000 --> 00:09:37.440 has this incredible capacity to reinvent himself in really difficult 128 00:09:37.480 --> 00:09:43.000 moments and it's rather astonishing the way he does this 129 00:09:43.519 --> 00:09:44.559 throughout his career. 130 00:09:45.960 --> 00:09:50.360 In Los Angeles was the only exception that the entire 131 00:09:50.440 --> 00:09:55.279 country adopted the medical examiners system. 132 00:09:55.440 --> 00:10:00.840 Yeah, so well of all the major cities and throughout 133 00:10:01.159 --> 00:10:07.080 the what we steadily see after World War two is 134 00:10:07.440 --> 00:10:11.279 that more and more cities begin to adopt the medical 135 00:10:11.320 --> 00:10:19.159 examiner system that relies on the expertise of trained forensic pathologists, 136 00:10:19.639 --> 00:10:23.759 which is quite different from a corner. A corner can 137 00:10:23.840 --> 00:10:28.960 be a medical examiner and can be a trained pathologist, 138 00:10:29.480 --> 00:10:34.039 but isn't always and in many places and still and 139 00:10:34.080 --> 00:10:37.039 so what we have in the US is sort of 140 00:10:37.080 --> 00:10:41.919 a patchwork of different systems with these two, the medical 141 00:10:41.960 --> 00:10:45.879 examiner and the corner. And the corner oftentimes was appointed 142 00:10:46.279 --> 00:10:50.639 was a political appointee, had no medical training in very 143 00:10:50.759 --> 00:10:56.960 small areas, small towns, the corner and was oftentimes you know, 144 00:10:57.080 --> 00:11:02.240 owned also the local funeral part, and I think what 145 00:11:02.639 --> 00:11:06.279 was a mortician. And what I think is very interesting 146 00:11:07.000 --> 00:11:10.960 is that Thomas and Gucci finds this opportunity in this 147 00:11:11.120 --> 00:11:14.759 shift to this new system in the nineteen fifties, and 148 00:11:15.200 --> 00:11:20.799 you know, the the elected officials in Los Angeles County, 149 00:11:20.840 --> 00:11:25.559 it's the County Board of Supervisors, along with the County 150 00:11:25.600 --> 00:11:30.879 Medical Association, realized that the rapid expansion of the city 151 00:11:30.919 --> 00:11:36.039 after World War Two required that the medical well the 152 00:11:36.080 --> 00:11:40.679 coroner system be modernized, and that was part of the 153 00:11:40.720 --> 00:11:44.240 shift to the to the medical examiner system. But this 154 00:11:44.399 --> 00:11:48.080 is LA and things are very entrenched in LA, and 155 00:11:48.159 --> 00:11:53.200 despite switching to the medical examiner system, it was always 156 00:11:53.360 --> 00:11:56.279 you know, the corner. And it was only in two thousand, 157 00:11:56.360 --> 00:11:58.679 I think twenty three or twenty four that they finally 158 00:11:58.799 --> 00:12:02.000 dropped the corner out of the title of the position 159 00:12:02.080 --> 00:12:04.679 and now it's just the Los Angeles Medical Examiner. 160 00:12:06.440 --> 00:12:09.440 You take the reader to August fifth, nineteen sixty two 161 00:12:10.159 --> 00:12:14.720 and doctor Thomas Negucci is one of the newest department coroners, 162 00:12:15.240 --> 00:12:17.639 and he knew he had to pay his dues. His 163 00:12:17.679 --> 00:12:22.960 wife was Hasako Nishihara, and she was very critical that 164 00:12:23.000 --> 00:12:27.639 he was working so hard. Anyway, at the office, one day, 165 00:12:27.720 --> 00:12:32.440 his boss named Kurfy, wanted him to conduct an autopsy 166 00:12:32.799 --> 00:12:35.919 of a woman who had died days before. It was 167 00:12:36.000 --> 00:12:42.600 Marilyn Monroe. Tell us about Nogucci's involvement in this incredible case. 168 00:12:44.000 --> 00:12:47.679 I mean, it's not surprising, right, this is Los Angeles County, 169 00:12:47.799 --> 00:12:53.000 and that the coroner's office would be called in cases 170 00:12:53.000 --> 00:12:57.919 of unexplained death to launch an investigation and also autopsy 171 00:12:58.000 --> 00:13:05.320 famous people. And I think this one was particularly shocking 172 00:13:05.360 --> 00:13:08.759 for any number of reasons, but you know, because Marilyn 173 00:13:08.840 --> 00:13:13.639 Monroe was so famous. And Theodore Curfey the corner at 174 00:13:13.679 --> 00:13:17.159 the time. So he is from New York Long Island, 175 00:13:17.360 --> 00:13:23.000 and he is brought in as the first medical examiner, 176 00:13:23.360 --> 00:13:28.399 and he really begins to consolidate his power, and he 177 00:13:28.759 --> 00:13:37.120 understands how significant, how significant conducting the investigation into Marilyn 178 00:13:37.159 --> 00:13:42.559 Monroe's death is, and so he tasks Nogucci to do 179 00:13:43.000 --> 00:13:47.600 the autopsy. Because Nogucci, even in the very short time 180 00:13:47.840 --> 00:13:52.279 he had been in the LA office, he had proved 181 00:13:52.360 --> 00:13:57.559 himself to be meticulous in the way that he conducted autopsies. 182 00:13:58.399 --> 00:14:03.559 And Theodore Curfey I really believe that he could depend 183 00:14:03.840 --> 00:14:11.559 on Thomas Nagucci to provide sort of the optimal autopsy 184 00:14:11.720 --> 00:14:17.039 that would hold under I think any as the cornerstone 185 00:14:17.080 --> 00:14:19.879 to the rest of the investigation into her death. 186 00:14:22.519 --> 00:14:25.639 That Jesus has an opportunity to stop to hear these messages. 187 00:14:28.559 --> 00:14:32.120 So tell us about his progress with Marilyn Monroe, what 188 00:14:32.200 --> 00:14:36.360 he discovers, and what he delivers in terms of evidence 189 00:14:36.360 --> 00:14:40.039 and information to the district attorney. 190 00:14:40.559 --> 00:14:43.639 All of that, you know, has been well documented. You know, 191 00:14:44.600 --> 00:14:51.639 they do a full, an exhaustive autopsy. But what is 192 00:14:51.799 --> 00:14:59.399 unusual is that Theodore Kurfey is very interested in this 193 00:14:59.480 --> 00:15:06.279 process called, you know, the psychological autopsy. This is part 194 00:15:06.279 --> 00:15:11.519 of the post war interest in all things psychological. And 195 00:15:11.600 --> 00:15:15.879 I think that's clearly an outcome of you know, the 196 00:15:15.960 --> 00:15:19.480 trauma of the war and you know, and then also 197 00:15:19.759 --> 00:15:23.440 the more sort of you know, problematic things about you know, 198 00:15:24.039 --> 00:15:27.919 influence average. So all these things are you know, coming 199 00:15:28.080 --> 00:15:34.279 into line after the war and what we see is 200 00:15:34.320 --> 00:15:38.480 that there is an appetite for it as well. And 201 00:15:38.600 --> 00:15:44.639 while there's always been interest in celebrities and examining, right, 202 00:15:45.039 --> 00:15:48.120 that's what tabloid journalism, you know, this is why it 203 00:15:48.279 --> 00:15:52.960 flourished in this time period. About knowing everything about your 204 00:15:52.960 --> 00:15:58.480 favorite star, this kind of takes a ghoulish turn in 205 00:15:58.519 --> 00:16:02.720 the sixties. It's not only you do audiences believe that 206 00:16:02.759 --> 00:16:05.639 they should know everything about a star when they're alive, 207 00:16:05.759 --> 00:16:11.399 but now also the circumstance and everything about their death. 208 00:16:11.879 --> 00:16:16.600 And so it's a combination of both Theodore Curfey and 209 00:16:16.679 --> 00:16:21.960 the LA Corner's Office embracing and expanding their role to 210 00:16:22.679 --> 00:16:29.360 include the psychological component, particularly around suicide, which they suspected 211 00:16:29.600 --> 00:16:35.399 in Marilyn Monroe's case, and also the demand. And I 212 00:16:35.440 --> 00:16:41.559 think what Curfey understood and had a glimmering of in 213 00:16:41.600 --> 00:16:47.399 the early nineteen sixties, Thomas Nagucci really capitalizes on it 214 00:16:47.480 --> 00:16:52.360 and is in terms you know, I oftentimes I call him, 215 00:16:52.559 --> 00:16:59.000 you know, the original influencer he with He is like 216 00:16:59.320 --> 00:17:02.320 it's strained to have a sentence that says that he 217 00:17:02.440 --> 00:17:08.440 is a media savvy corner and his office becomes what 218 00:17:08.640 --> 00:17:10.920 was once sort of a backwater office that no one 219 00:17:11.000 --> 00:17:14.799 knew about or was very much behind the scenes, and 220 00:17:14.880 --> 00:17:20.640 with Monroe's death, you know, gains increasingly a higher profile. 221 00:17:20.960 --> 00:17:25.599 And then so Thomas and Guji conducts this meticulous autopsy. 222 00:17:25.799 --> 00:17:32.160 But you know, and while Theodor Kurfey launches the psychological 223 00:17:32.279 --> 00:17:36.880 autopsy and so they interview friends. They would like to 224 00:17:36.920 --> 00:17:40.200 know the state of mind. And this is very much 225 00:17:40.759 --> 00:17:46.039 in line with the growing interest. Also the two go 226 00:17:46.200 --> 00:17:52.480 hand in hand within sort of investigations around you know, 227 00:17:52.599 --> 00:17:59.000 doing profiles and so trying to you know, gauge right, 228 00:17:59.160 --> 00:18:01.920 like what the state of mind of Marilyn Monroe is. 229 00:18:02.759 --> 00:18:05.440 And so he's involved and as he watches, you know, 230 00:18:05.519 --> 00:18:09.680 he does his work, and he watches this unfold and 231 00:18:09.759 --> 00:18:14.279 he sees, you know, Theodore kurfy at the center of 232 00:18:14.359 --> 00:18:19.519 attention and and I think this is the moment where 233 00:18:19.599 --> 00:18:25.039 he sees how powerful the corner can be. And I 234 00:18:25.039 --> 00:18:28.920 think this stokes his desire to ultimately be the chief 235 00:18:29.000 --> 00:18:32.839 corner in LA but his role. So he does the 236 00:18:32.880 --> 00:18:39.160 autopsy and then their public pressure makes Curfey, even though 237 00:18:39.200 --> 00:18:42.519 he's still in the middle of conducting the autopsy, to 238 00:18:42.519 --> 00:18:46.440 to declare that this was most likely a suicide because 239 00:18:46.480 --> 00:18:51.519 of the pills that were found. And but the where 240 00:18:51.559 --> 00:18:57.319 it goes awry is that after Thomas Agojie conducts the autopsy, 241 00:18:58.400 --> 00:19:06.920 particularly the organ samples and blood, everything disappears. And so 242 00:19:07.039 --> 00:19:12.160 this becomes this kind of origin moment for all the 243 00:19:12.200 --> 00:19:18.680 conspiracies around Monroe's death. And the chief toxicologists at the 244 00:19:18.720 --> 00:19:22.519 time had decided, well, this is a suicide. We have, 245 00:19:22.640 --> 00:19:25.519 you know, evidence of the pills, et cetera, so we're 246 00:19:25.519 --> 00:19:32.079 not going to waste our time having toxological reports done 247 00:19:30.839 --> 00:19:35.599 and when and Nagucci realizes that this could be a 248 00:19:35.640 --> 00:19:39.359 potential problem for him, and he inquires about it, and 249 00:19:39.400 --> 00:19:42.799 then he also realizes his position. Right, he is the 250 00:19:43.559 --> 00:19:47.240 lowest ranking person in the office. You know, he doesn't 251 00:19:47.400 --> 00:19:52.559 have a lot of say over anything. But this does 252 00:19:53.000 --> 00:19:57.200 tie him to marily Moroe in a way that he 253 00:19:57.240 --> 00:20:01.000 had never anticipated. And you know, they're all sorts of 254 00:20:01.119 --> 00:20:04.519 you know, you know, you can look, there's all sorts 255 00:20:04.559 --> 00:20:10.680 of conspiracy theories about what happened because of not doing 256 00:20:10.759 --> 00:20:17.480 these toxic toxicology right labs on her. But to the 257 00:20:17.599 --> 00:20:22.880 degree that Nogucci will say that he's always sort of 258 00:20:22.920 --> 00:20:25.400 worried about this, are they going to accuse him of 259 00:20:25.440 --> 00:20:29.599 her death? And so it casts a really long shadow 260 00:20:29.680 --> 00:20:33.200 over his career in different kinds of ways. 261 00:20:34.319 --> 00:20:38.640 You're right about the May nineteen sixty six coroner's inquest 262 00:20:39.200 --> 00:20:43.640 regarding Leonard Deadweiler's death at the hands of a police officer, 263 00:20:44.240 --> 00:20:48.240 and you say that that Nogucci suddenly came to life 264 00:20:48.559 --> 00:20:52.200 on the stand. His nervousness eased when he spoke of 265 00:20:52.200 --> 00:20:56.880 forensic science, and he became much more animated when he 266 00:20:57.079 --> 00:21:02.640 discussed the details of the autopsy, and so his role 267 00:21:02.880 --> 00:21:08.160 and his career as a corner to the stars began 268 00:21:08.440 --> 00:21:09.119 at that moment. 269 00:21:11.319 --> 00:21:17.920 There's a long history of police violence, especially against black 270 00:21:17.960 --> 00:21:20.680 and brown people in Los Angeles, and it's not something 271 00:21:20.720 --> 00:21:25.799 that's gone away, and in particular in the Deadwiler case, 272 00:21:26.480 --> 00:21:31.839 what was very unique about it is that much of 273 00:21:31.880 --> 00:21:36.359 it was adjudicated through what was called a corner's inquest, 274 00:21:36.920 --> 00:21:42.160 which was this kind of quasi legal thing where the 275 00:21:42.319 --> 00:21:47.680 corner office conducted an investigation into the manner of death. 276 00:21:47.799 --> 00:21:53.960 And then with this investigation, it was an opportunity under 277 00:21:54.000 --> 00:21:58.200 oath where evidence and testimony could be collected and then 278 00:21:58.599 --> 00:22:02.799 the district attorney could side whether to press criminal charges 279 00:22:02.920 --> 00:22:10.480 or not. And oftentimes, the what law enforcement liked about 280 00:22:10.599 --> 00:22:14.960 corners in quest that it almost always ruled in favor 281 00:22:15.839 --> 00:22:22.480 of law enforcement, almost no matter what the circumstances are. 282 00:22:23.400 --> 00:22:28.880 And ultimately what happens is that, particularly under Thomas Naguchi, 283 00:22:29.759 --> 00:22:35.359 this will change and the corner's inquest becomes something that, 284 00:22:36.559 --> 00:22:41.319 rather than just being a rubber stamp, oftentimes worked against 285 00:22:42.039 --> 00:22:45.240 the police. And so the Deadweiler is an interesting case 286 00:22:45.359 --> 00:22:49.240 because of that. But also this was the first time 287 00:22:49.359 --> 00:22:55.240 a coroner's inquest was televised, and part of it was 288 00:22:55.480 --> 00:23:01.200 that this happened after the Watts Uprising of nineteen sixty five, 289 00:23:01.640 --> 00:23:07.200 and this is a period of enormous political and social turmoil, 290 00:23:07.640 --> 00:23:10.920 and there was this real fear that the city would 291 00:23:10.920 --> 00:23:15.960 burn again if this case wasn't handled properly. And part 292 00:23:16.000 --> 00:23:20.480 of the push to televise the case was that it 293 00:23:20.559 --> 00:23:24.599 would serve as a pressure valve and to show the 294 00:23:24.640 --> 00:23:28.599 public and particularly the black community, that this was being 295 00:23:28.680 --> 00:23:34.039 taken seriously and this was held in public, and this 296 00:23:34.200 --> 00:23:41.160 was transparent. And also in this particular case, this is 297 00:23:41.200 --> 00:23:46.599 where Thomas Negucci and the now he would become very famous. 298 00:23:46.680 --> 00:23:49.640 Johnny Cochran is at the beginning of his career and 299 00:23:49.680 --> 00:23:55.160 this is where they crossed path And because of that, right, 300 00:23:55.559 --> 00:23:58.880 a lot of what I found really fascinating in doing 301 00:23:58.920 --> 00:24:02.759 the research for LA Corner is that I encounter all 302 00:24:02.880 --> 00:24:07.279 these individuals that would go on to be very famous 303 00:24:07.680 --> 00:24:12.279 in LA before they were famous and so but the 304 00:24:12.359 --> 00:24:18.720 dead Wiler case really demonstrates, I think, to Noguci how 305 00:24:18.839 --> 00:24:25.599 powerful television is and very much we're at the very 306 00:24:25.880 --> 00:24:34.720 beginning of TV journalism. Negucci intuitively realizes that it can 307 00:24:34.759 --> 00:24:39.039 be an important tool in terms of the power of 308 00:24:39.039 --> 00:24:42.960 the corner's office. And then also he liked being on TV. 309 00:24:44.279 --> 00:24:48.240 He liked being quoted on TV, he liked being interviewed. 310 00:24:48.079 --> 00:24:48.160 And. 311 00:24:49.680 --> 00:24:55.359 I think this case provided provided some of that and 312 00:24:55.359 --> 00:24:58.680 and so he would he would pursue it, gave him 313 00:24:58.720 --> 00:25:01.960 a taste of the limelight, and he would continue to 314 00:25:02.000 --> 00:25:06.519 pursue it. But at the same time it really demonstrated 315 00:25:06.519 --> 00:25:10.440 to him also the importance of the coroner's office. 316 00:25:13.200 --> 00:25:16.079 You're right that you call it the fight to become 317 00:25:16.319 --> 00:25:19.880 chief coroner. Kurfey was to retire at seventy years old, 318 00:25:19.920 --> 00:25:23.480 and the Board of Supervisors weren't looking too hard to 319 00:25:23.519 --> 00:25:27.319 find a replacement. Noguchi was worried about his English, but 320 00:25:27.440 --> 00:25:33.920 his wife Husoko urged him to consider being the chief coroner. 321 00:25:34.480 --> 00:25:37.559 Noguchi and his wife didn't have any idea of what 322 00:25:37.599 --> 00:25:41.559 the what was in store. So could we briefly go 323 00:25:41.680 --> 00:25:45.160 through this incredible fight for him to become chief corner 324 00:25:45.640 --> 00:25:50.000 and the obstacles and the discrimination he endured. 325 00:25:50.759 --> 00:25:55.039 Yeah, and so Kurfy is mandated to retire because of 326 00:25:55.079 --> 00:25:59.200 a county policy that administrative department had had to retire 327 00:25:59.240 --> 00:26:03.960 by age seven. And you know, he's reluctant to retire, 328 00:26:04.039 --> 00:26:08.319 of course, because he enjoys the power he wields as 329 00:26:08.359 --> 00:26:13.519 the corner and he doesn't really talk about a successor. 330 00:26:14.200 --> 00:26:18.519 And in even the most casual of ways, partly because 331 00:26:18.559 --> 00:26:22.680 it was the position in the county, becoming corner relied 332 00:26:22.680 --> 00:26:26.640 on the Civil Service exam, and you know, and it 333 00:26:26.759 --> 00:26:29.680 was a combination of time on the clock, your score 334 00:26:29.720 --> 00:26:33.920 on the Civil Service exam to see where you would land, 335 00:26:34.160 --> 00:26:37.960 and then that would provide you the chance to interview. 336 00:26:38.720 --> 00:26:42.759 And the Civil Service exam was straightforward in the sense 337 00:26:42.920 --> 00:26:49.839 that it really in many ways worked against sort of 338 00:26:49.880 --> 00:26:52.960 what was in place, like in the private sector. You know, 339 00:26:53.000 --> 00:26:57.599 this kind of good old boys network where if you 340 00:26:57.680 --> 00:27:00.359 didn't have those kinds of connections, if you weren't a 341 00:27:00.400 --> 00:27:04.720 white person, that would be very hard to secure employment, 342 00:27:04.799 --> 00:27:10.599 and particularly communities of color in this time period, Mexican Americans, 343 00:27:11.039 --> 00:27:17.640 African Americans, and particularly Japanese Americans fought county employment with 344 00:27:18.200 --> 00:27:24.279 its very clear, transparent hiring salaries, and the civil service 345 00:27:24.279 --> 00:27:29.759 system would be much a much better pathway to middle 346 00:27:29.799 --> 00:27:32.839 class stability than working in the private sector. Because of 347 00:27:32.880 --> 00:27:38.359 these protections. Thomas Nagucci was still you know, he's still 348 00:27:38.759 --> 00:27:42.119 this is nineteen sixty seven, and he is still getting 349 00:27:42.119 --> 00:27:45.960 his bearings and he's not quite sure if he should 350 00:27:46.000 --> 00:27:49.960 go for this job. And his wife, who is you know, 351 00:27:50.039 --> 00:27:53.920 she's unusual for her time. She has a PhD in microbiology, 352 00:27:54.599 --> 00:27:59.759 and she's a person who has her education interrupted. You know, 353 00:27:59.839 --> 00:28:04.759 she was incarcerated in a concentration camp for the duration 354 00:28:05.200 --> 00:28:09.319 of World War two because of the forcible removal of 355 00:28:09.400 --> 00:28:13.400 Japanese Americans from the West Coast. And you know, she 356 00:28:13.559 --> 00:28:18.799 also was never able to find an academic appointment, even 357 00:28:18.839 --> 00:28:24.039 with a PhD in microbiology, most likely because not only 358 00:28:24.079 --> 00:28:26.359 because she was Japanese American, but she was a woman, 359 00:28:26.480 --> 00:28:28.680 and it was very difficult in the post war era 360 00:28:29.279 --> 00:28:34.440 for female scientists, and so and she is, you know, 361 00:28:35.960 --> 00:28:39.920 she is her husband's number one champion. But she also 362 00:28:41.039 --> 00:28:46.319 like burns with this rage about the structures of discrimination 363 00:28:47.519 --> 00:28:52.720 that limit like his, you know, occupational you know, opportunities 364 00:28:52.759 --> 00:28:55.559 as well as her own. And then the community writ 365 00:28:55.640 --> 00:29:00.160 large and so she encourages him, you know, ultimately to applay. 366 00:29:00.440 --> 00:29:04.920 He scores well in the top three. And then what 367 00:29:05.720 --> 00:29:08.759 is very interesting is that once he is in the 368 00:29:08.759 --> 00:29:11.279 top three, and it is a possibility that he could 369 00:29:11.279 --> 00:29:15.440 be appointed by the board of supervisors the County Medical Association, 370 00:29:15.519 --> 00:29:20.559 which is very powerful. It includes UCLA and USC the 371 00:29:20.640 --> 00:29:26.440 University of Southern California. They decided Thomas Negucci was not acceptable, 372 00:29:27.599 --> 00:29:31.119 and they do it in this way by saying he's 373 00:29:31.200 --> 00:29:35.200 too young, he's too inexperience. He's forty at this point, 374 00:29:35.920 --> 00:29:39.039 and they come up with a laundry list of reasons 375 00:29:39.079 --> 00:29:43.680 why he's not qualified. I was particularly struck with the 376 00:29:43.759 --> 00:29:48.599 University of Southern California's medical school director at the time, 377 00:29:48.640 --> 00:29:53.799 who said Thomas Nagucci was unqualified as to be the 378 00:29:53.880 --> 00:29:57.920 county corner because the county corner was also responsible for 379 00:29:58.079 --> 00:30:01.440 training pathologists. You know, they use you know, the Corner's 380 00:30:01.440 --> 00:30:04.720 office as a training site. But he seemed to be 381 00:30:04.799 --> 00:30:09.720 unaware that Thomas Negucci was already teaching at USC, which 382 00:30:09.960 --> 00:30:13.680 was quite glaring to me. But what really undergirds it 383 00:30:13.759 --> 00:30:19.880 is the racism that they could not imagine or even 384 00:30:20.039 --> 00:30:24.680 tolerate someone that looked like Thomas Negucci in the highest 385 00:30:24.799 --> 00:30:30.440 ranking medical position in the county. And so they start 386 00:30:30.480 --> 00:30:35.160 what is essentially a smear campaign, and Thomas Negucci, who 387 00:30:35.359 --> 00:30:39.920 until right this point had been you know, ha had 388 00:30:39.920 --> 00:30:44.440 a pretty quiet life, finds every aspect of his career, 389 00:30:45.559 --> 00:30:50.279 his disposition, his personal life like in the papers, and 390 00:30:51.240 --> 00:30:55.160 he doesn't know what quit to do. But not only 391 00:30:55.240 --> 00:30:58.920 his wife, but the community comes in support of him. 392 00:30:59.519 --> 00:31:04.039 And then what the most important organization that comes to 393 00:31:04.079 --> 00:31:09.599 his support is the Los Angeles County Employee Association, which 394 00:31:10.160 --> 00:31:15.440 comes in full throttle support of Naguchi, not because of 395 00:31:15.519 --> 00:31:19.200 the racism and the discrimination in the case, but more 396 00:31:19.400 --> 00:31:23.839 so because of the fact that they don't want the 397 00:31:23.880 --> 00:31:28.799 civil service system to be undermined, and they knew that 398 00:31:28.960 --> 00:31:33.839 this could potentially be a huge issue because what the 399 00:31:33.880 --> 00:31:37.839 county Medical Association wanted to do was not use the 400 00:31:37.839 --> 00:31:41.079 county civil service list and decide to bring in their 401 00:31:41.160 --> 00:31:45.960