Speaker 1: You are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking
Speaker 1: killers in true crime history and the authors that have
Speaker 1: written about them. Gaesy, Bundy Dahmer, The Nightstalker VTK Every
Speaker 1: week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and
Speaker 1: infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your
Speaker 1: host journalist and author Dan Zufanski, Good Evening.
Speaker 2: La Coroner is a gripping true crime biography of doctor
Speaker 2: Thomas Nagucci, the controversial coroner to the stars who perform
Speaker 2: the autopsies of Marilyn Monroe, Robert F. Kennedy, Natalie Wood,
Speaker 2: and hundreds of other notable personalities. An award winning historian
Speaker 2: and professor, deafly blends Los Angeles history, death investigation and
Speaker 2: forensic science, and Asian American history in a feat of
Speaker 2: exquisite storytelling. La Coroner is the first ever biography of
Speaker 2: doctor Thomas Nogucci, the Chief Medical Examiner coroner of Los
Speaker 2: Angeles County from nineteen sixty seven to nineteen eighty two.
Speaker 2: Throughout his illustrious career, doctor Naguci conducted the official autopsies
Speaker 2: of some of the most high profile figures of his time.
Speaker 2: His elaborate press conferences which often generated more controversy than
Speaker 2: they did answers, catapulted him into the public eye. Nogucci
Speaker 2: was also the inspiration for the popular nineteen seventies eighties
Speaker 2: television drama Quincy Mme starring Jack Klugman, featuring never before
Speaker 2: published details about Naguci's most controversial cases. La Coroner is
Speaker 2: a meticulously researched biography of a complex man set against
Speaker 2: the backdrop of the social and racial politics of the
Speaker 2: sixties and seventies and Hollywood celebrity culture. The book that
Speaker 2: were featuring this evening is La Coroner, Thomas Negucci and
Speaker 2: Death in Hollywood with my special guest historian, professor, and
Speaker 2: author and Soon Choi. Welcome to the program, and thank
Speaker 2: you very much for this interview and Soon Choi, Oh,
Speaker 2: thank you for having me, and congratulations on this incredible book,
Speaker 2: La Coroner. Oh.
Speaker 3: Thanks, it's very exciting that it's coming out on the
Speaker 3: twenty second.
Speaker 2: Absolutely. Now, you write in the introduction that you were
Speaker 2: introduced to Thomas Negucci and his career through the conspiracy
Speaker 2: theories swirling for decades around Merril Monroe and Robert F. Kennedy.
Speaker 2: He had an autopsy them and many other celebrities. You're
Speaker 2: right that this book is not about celebrity death, however,
Speaker 2: so tell us what this book is about and how
Speaker 2: you came to be involved.
Speaker 3: So that's partially true. I had found Thomas Dagucci had
Speaker 3: written a book called Corner, which was a memoir of
Speaker 3: his time in the La Corner's office, and it was
Speaker 3: published in the early eighties, and I, in the late nineties,
Speaker 3: had found a copy of his book in the dollar
Speaker 3: bin in the Strand bookstore, and they had these big
Speaker 3: in New York City, had these big bins outside, and
Speaker 3: I had found a copy of his book and it
Speaker 3: had a very graphic cover on it. But what really
Speaker 3: struck me was that here was clearly someone who was
Speaker 3: in his time famous himself. Right, he's a celebrity Corner
Speaker 3: and that, and he was Asian American, and it was
Speaker 3: someone I had never heard of. And I am a
Speaker 3: mystery to crime buff and I was like, wow, who
Speaker 3: is this? And I picked it up and went to
Speaker 3: some cafe somewhere, had a cup of coffee and I
Speaker 3: was just reading and couldn't put it down. And it
Speaker 3: really right. I had known about all the conspiracies surrounding
Speaker 3: you know Robert and John Kennedy and also Marilyn Monroe,
Speaker 3: and I was really familiar with those, but I had
Speaker 3: never heard of Thomas Legucci, and so that kind of
Speaker 3: stuck with me, and I hung on to the book.
Speaker 3: And subsequent from the time that I had picked up
Speaker 3: the book, I had moved several times, and I had
Speaker 3: lived overseas and moved all over the US and always
Speaker 3: took that book with me, and at various times I
Speaker 3: would try you know, I'm a historian, I'm an academic,
Speaker 3: and at various times I would pick the project up, thinking, oh,
Speaker 3: you know, maybe I should do something with this, and
Speaker 3: just you know, never really quite had the time. Until
Speaker 3: a little bit before the pandemic. I started thinking, well,
Speaker 3: I wonder if there's enough to do an article. And
Speaker 3: then indeed there was enough material to do the article.
Speaker 3: But one, maybe the only silver lining of the pandemic
Speaker 3: was that I had the time to sit and write
Speaker 3: the article. Partly, you know, I live in Los Angeles,
Speaker 3: and because of the pandemic, I had stopped commuting to
Speaker 3: work and was working from home. And by not commuting,
Speaker 3: I was saving myself two and a half hours a day,
Speaker 3: and so I had this new chunk of time to
Speaker 3: do some writing, and the article sort of unfolded from there.
Speaker 3: And I found really interesting was that many of the
Speaker 3: things I needed, the archival materials, plus you know, everything
Speaker 3: else I needed, the people to interview. It was all
Speaker 3: here in plain sight. And one thing just sort of
Speaker 3: led to another. And here's the book.
Speaker 2: You write that your essay the Japanese American Citizens League,
Speaker 2: LA Politics and Thomas Nogucci case. This is what this
Speaker 2: book is based on. In you won a twenty twenty
Speaker 2: one prize for Best Essay from the Historical Society of
Speaker 2: Southern California. So let's talk about Thomas Noguchi. He was
Speaker 2: educated in Japan. Tell us about his background and when
Speaker 2: he immigrated to Southern California in the conditions therein he.
Speaker 3: Is a gifted student and he simultaneously pursues a law
Speaker 3: degree in a medical degree in Japan. His education is
Speaker 3: interrupted by the war and World War two, and in
Speaker 3: the aftermath in the fifties. You know, but what he's
Speaker 3: really sort of dazzled by in the post war occupation
Speaker 3: of Japan by the US, is that he's dazzled by
Speaker 3: American science and and he wants to go. He wants
Speaker 3: to leave Japan for the US because he thinks this
Speaker 3: is the place where he will get the most cutting
Speaker 3: age scientific training in medicine in particular. And then so
Speaker 3: he decides he's going to go to the US. He
Speaker 3: sends out hundreds of letters looking for an internship, and
Speaker 3: only one hospital responds. In one university affiliated hospital, Orange
Speaker 3: County General Hospital, which is a public hospital in southern
Speaker 3: California in Orange County and tied to Lomolinda University, accepts him.
Speaker 3: And then a sight unseen, no interview. This is the
Speaker 3: nineteen fifties. He takes a huge leap of faith and
Speaker 3: winds up in southern California. It's interesting hit for him,
Speaker 3: I think is right. There's a sizeable Japanese American community here,
Speaker 3: particularly the children of Japanese immigrants who had migrated, you know,
Speaker 3: in the early part of the twentieth century and had settled,
Speaker 3: and so it is largely second generation. And so here's
Speaker 3: Thomas Naguchi. He's part of this new wave of immigration
Speaker 3: called the Shinise, meaning new Japanese immigrants that come after
Speaker 3: the war. That includes students, it includes war brides, and
Speaker 3: so but he settles right in Los Angeles, and it
Speaker 3: is a culture shock, not only being in the US,
Speaker 3: but also even with you know, his contemporaries Japanese Americans
Speaker 3: in southern California and so but this, you know, so
Speaker 3: basically what he does is he starts his medical training
Speaker 3: all over. He doesn't have a strong grasp of English yet.
Speaker 3: And I think one of the big themes that really
Speaker 3: stood out for me about Thomas Nagucci was that he
Speaker 3: has this incredible capacity to reinvent himself in really difficult
Speaker 3: moments and it's rather astonishing the way he does this
Speaker 3: throughout his career.
Speaker 2: In Los Angeles was the only exception that the entire
Speaker 2: country adopted the medical examiners system.
Speaker 3: Yeah, so well of all the major cities and throughout
Speaker 3: the what we steadily see after World War two is
Speaker 3: that more and more cities begin to adopt the medical
Speaker 3: examiner system that relies on the expertise of trained forensic pathologists,
Speaker 3: which is quite different from a corner. A corner can
Speaker 3: be a medical examiner and can be a trained pathologist,
Speaker 3: but isn't always and in many places and still and
Speaker 3: so what we have in the US is sort of
Speaker 3: a patchwork of different systems with these two, the medical
Speaker 3: examiner and the corner. And the corner oftentimes was appointed
Speaker 3: was a political appointee, had no medical training in very
Speaker 3: small areas, small towns, the corner and was oftentimes you know,
Speaker 3: owned also the local funeral part, and I think what
Speaker 3: was a mortician. And what I think is very interesting
Speaker 3: is that Thomas and Gucci finds this opportunity in this
Speaker 3: shift to this new system in the nineteen fifties, and
Speaker 3: you know, the the elected officials in Los Angeles County,
Speaker 3: it's the County Board of Supervisors, along with the County
Speaker 3: Medical Association, realized that the rapid expansion of the city
Speaker 3: after World War Two required that the medical well the
Speaker 3: coroner system be modernized, and that was part of the
Speaker 3: shift to the to the medical examiner system. But this
Speaker 3: is LA and things are very entrenched in LA, and
Speaker 3: despite switching to the medical examiner system, it was always
Speaker 3: you know, the corner. And it was only in two thousand,
Speaker 3: I think twenty three or twenty four that they finally
Speaker 3: dropped the corner out of the title of the position
Speaker 3: and now it's just the Los Angeles Medical Examiner.
Speaker 2: You take the reader to August fifth, nineteen sixty two
Speaker 2: and doctor Thomas Negucci is one of the newest department coroners,
Speaker 2: and he knew he had to pay his dues. His
Speaker 2: wife was Hasako Nishihara, and she was very critical that
Speaker 2: he was working so hard. Anyway, at the office, one day,
Speaker 2: his boss named Kurfy, wanted him to conduct an autopsy
Speaker 2: of a woman who had died days before. It was
Speaker 2: Marilyn Monroe. Tell us about Nogucci's involvement in this incredible case.
Speaker 3: I mean, it's not surprising, right, this is Los Angeles County,
Speaker 3: and that the coroner's office would be called in cases
Speaker 3: of unexplained death to launch an investigation and also autopsy
Speaker 3: famous people. And I think this one was particularly shocking
Speaker 3: for any number of reasons, but you know, because Marilyn
Speaker 3: Monroe was so famous. And Theodore Curfey the corner at
Speaker 3: the time. So he is from New York Long Island,
Speaker 3: and he is brought in as the first medical examiner,
Speaker 3: and he really begins to consolidate his power, and he
Speaker 3: understands how significant, how significant conducting the investigation into Marilyn
Speaker 3: Monroe's death is, and so he tasks Nogucci to do
Speaker 3: the autopsy. Because Nogucci, even in the very short time
Speaker 3: he had been in the LA office, he had proved
Speaker 3: himself to be meticulous in the way that he conducted autopsies.
Speaker 3: And Theodore Curfey I really believe that he could depend
Speaker 3: on Thomas Nagucci to provide sort of the optimal autopsy
Speaker 3: that would hold under I think any as the cornerstone
Speaker 3: to the rest of the investigation into her death.
Speaker 2: That Jesus has an opportunity to stop to hear these messages.
Speaker 2: So tell us about his progress with Marilyn Monroe, what
Speaker 2: he discovers, and what he delivers in terms of evidence
Speaker 2: and information to the district attorney.
Speaker 3: All of that, you know, has been well documented. You know,
Speaker 3: they do a full, an exhaustive autopsy. But what is
Speaker 3: unusual is that Theodore Kurfey is very interested in this
Speaker 3: process called, you know, the psychological autopsy. This is part
Speaker 3: of the post war interest in all things psychological. And
Speaker 3: I think that's clearly an outcome of you know, the
Speaker 3: trauma of the war and you know, and then also
Speaker 3: the more sort of you know, problematic things about you know,
Speaker 3: influence average. So all these things are you know, coming
Speaker 3: into line after the war and what we see is
Speaker 3: that there is an appetite for it as well. And
Speaker 3: while there's always been interest in celebrities and examining, right,
Speaker 3: that's what tabloid journalism, you know, this is why it
Speaker 3: flourished in this time period. About knowing everything about your
Speaker 3: favorite star, this kind of takes a ghoulish turn in
Speaker 3: the sixties. It's not only you do audiences believe that
Speaker 3: they should know everything about a star when they're alive,
Speaker 3: but now also the circumstance and everything about their death.
Speaker 3: And so it's a combination of both Theodore Curfey and
Speaker 3: the LA Corner's Office embracing and expanding their role to
Speaker 3: include the psychological component, particularly around suicide, which they suspected
Speaker 3: in Marilyn Monroe's case, and also the demand. And I
Speaker 3: think what Curfey understood and had a glimmering of in
Speaker 3: the early nineteen sixties, Thomas Nagucci really capitalizes on it
Speaker 3: and is in terms you know, I oftentimes I call him,
Speaker 3: you know, the original influencer he with He is like
Speaker 3: it's strained to have a sentence that says that he
Speaker 3: is a media savvy corner and his office becomes what
Speaker 3: was once sort of a backwater office that no one
Speaker 3: knew about or was very much behind the scenes, and
Speaker 3: with Monroe's death, you know, gains increasingly a higher profile.
Speaker 3: And then so Thomas and Guji conducts this meticulous autopsy.
Speaker 3: But you know, and while Theodor Kurfey launches the psychological
Speaker 3: autopsy and so they interview friends. They would like to
Speaker 3: know the state of mind. And this is very much
Speaker 3: in line with the growing interest. Also the two go
Speaker 3: hand in hand within sort of investigations around you know,
Speaker 3: doing profiles and so trying to you know, gauge right,
Speaker 3: like what the state of mind of Marilyn Monroe is.
Speaker 3: And so he's involved and as he watches, you know,
Speaker 3: he does his work, and he watches this unfold and
Speaker 3: he sees, you know, Theodore kurfy at the center of
Speaker 3: attention and and I think this is the moment where
Speaker 3: he sees how powerful the corner can be. And I
Speaker 3: think this stokes his desire to ultimately be the chief
Speaker 3: corner in LA but his role. So he does the
Speaker 3: autopsy and then their public pressure makes Curfey, even though
Speaker 3: he's still in the middle of conducting the autopsy, to
Speaker 3: to declare that this was most likely a suicide because
Speaker 3: of the pills that were found. And but the where
Speaker 3: it goes awry is that after Thomas Agojie conducts the autopsy,
Speaker 3: particularly the organ samples and blood, everything disappears. And so
Speaker 3: this becomes this kind of origin moment for all the
Speaker 3: conspiracies around Monroe's death. And the chief toxicologists at the
Speaker 3: time had decided, well, this is a suicide. We have,
Speaker 3: you know, evidence of the pills, et cetera, so we're
Speaker 3: not going to waste our time having toxological reports done
Speaker 3: and when and Nagucci realizes that this could be a
Speaker 3: potential problem for him, and he inquires about it, and
Speaker 3: then he also realizes his position. Right, he is the
Speaker 3: lowest ranking person in the office. You know, he doesn't
Speaker 3: have a lot of say over anything. But this does
Speaker 3: tie him to marily Moroe in a way that he
Speaker 3: had never anticipated. And you know, they're all sorts of
Speaker 3: you know, you know, you can look, there's all sorts
Speaker 3: of conspiracy theories about what happened because of not doing
Speaker 3: these toxic toxicology right labs on her. But to the
Speaker 3: degree that Nogucci will say that he's always sort of
Speaker 3: worried about this, are they going to accuse him of
Speaker 3: her death? And so it casts a really long shadow
Speaker 3: over his career in different kinds of ways.
Speaker 2: You're right about the May nineteen sixty six coroner's inquest
Speaker 2: regarding Leonard Deadweiler's death at the hands of a police officer,
Speaker 2: and you say that that Nogucci suddenly came to life
Speaker 2: on the stand. His nervousness eased when he spoke of
Speaker 2: forensic science, and he became much more animated when he
Speaker 2: discussed the details of the autopsy, and so his role
Speaker 2: and his career as a corner to the stars began
Speaker 2: at that moment.
Speaker 3: There's a long history of police violence, especially against black
Speaker 3: and brown people in Los Angeles, and it's not something
Speaker 3: that's gone away, and in particular in the Deadwiler case,
Speaker 3: what was very unique about it is that much of
Speaker 3: it was adjudicated through what was called a corner's inquest,
Speaker 3: which was this kind of quasi legal thing where the
Speaker 3: corner office conducted an investigation into the manner of death.
Speaker 3: And then with this investigation, it was an opportunity under
Speaker 3: oath where evidence and testimony could be collected and then
Speaker 3: the district attorney could side whether to press criminal charges
Speaker 3: or not. And oftentimes, the what law enforcement liked about
Speaker 3: corners in quest that it almost always ruled in favor
Speaker 3: of law enforcement, almost no matter what the circumstances are.
Speaker 3: And ultimately what happens is that, particularly under Thomas Naguchi,
Speaker 3: this will change and the corner's inquest becomes something that,
Speaker 3: rather than just being a rubber stamp, oftentimes worked against
Speaker 3: the police. And so the Deadweiler is an interesting case
Speaker 3: because of that. But also this was the first time
Speaker 3: a coroner's inquest was televised, and part of it was
Speaker 3: that this happened after the Watts Uprising of nineteen sixty five,
Speaker 3: and this is a period of enormous political and social turmoil,
Speaker 3: and there was this real fear that the city would
Speaker 3: burn again if this case wasn't handled properly. And part
Speaker 3: of the push to televise the case was that it
Speaker 3: would serve as a pressure valve and to show the
Speaker 3: public and particularly the black community, that this was being
Speaker 3: taken seriously and this was held in public, and this
Speaker 3: was transparent. And also in this particular case, this is
Speaker 3: where Thomas Negucci and the now he would become very famous.
Speaker 3: Johnny Cochran is at the beginning of his career and
Speaker 3: this is where they crossed path And because of that, right,
Speaker 3: a lot of what I found really fascinating in doing
Speaker 3: the research for LA Corner is that I encounter all
Speaker 3: these individuals that would go on to be very famous
Speaker 3: in LA before they were famous and so but the
Speaker 3: dead Wiler case really demonstrates, I think, to Noguci how
Speaker 3: powerful television is and very much we're at the very
Speaker 3: beginning of TV journalism. Negucci intuitively realizes that it can
Speaker 3: be an important tool in terms of the power of
Speaker 3: the corner's office. And then also he liked being on TV.
Speaker 3: He liked being quoted on TV, he liked being interviewed.
Speaker 2: And.
Speaker 3: I think this case provided provided some of that and
Speaker 3: and so he would he would pursue it, gave him
Speaker 3: a taste of the limelight, and he would continue to
Speaker 3: pursue it. But at the same time it really demonstrated
Speaker 3: to him also the importance of the coroner's office.
Speaker 2: You're right that you call it the fight to become
Speaker 2: chief coroner. Kurfey was to retire at seventy years old,
Speaker 2: and the Board of Supervisors weren't looking too hard to
Speaker 2: find a replacement. Noguchi was worried about his English, but
Speaker 2: his wife Husoko urged him to consider being the chief coroner.
Speaker 2: Noguchi and his wife didn't have any idea of what
Speaker 2: the what was in store. So could we briefly go
Speaker 2: through this incredible fight for him to become chief corner
Speaker 2: and the obstacles and the discrimination he endured.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and so Kurfy is mandated to retire because of
Speaker 3: a county policy that administrative department had had to retire
Speaker 3: by age seven. And you know, he's reluctant to retire,
Speaker 3: of course, because he enjoys the power he wields as
Speaker 3: the corner and he doesn't really talk about a successor.
Speaker 3: And in even the most casual of ways, partly because
Speaker 3: it was the position in the county, becoming corner relied
Speaker 3: on the Civil Service exam, and you know, and it
Speaker 3: was a combination of time on the clock, your score
Speaker 3: on the Civil Service exam to see where you would land,
Speaker 3: and then that would provide you the chance to interview.
Speaker 3: And the Civil Service exam was straightforward in the sense
Speaker 3: that it really in many ways worked against sort of
Speaker 3: what was in place, like in the private sector. You know,
Speaker 3: this kind of good old boys network where if you
Speaker 3: didn't have those kinds of connections, if you weren't a
Speaker 3: white person, that would be very hard to secure employment,
Speaker 3: and particularly communities of color in this time period, Mexican Americans,
Speaker 3: African Americans, and particularly Japanese Americans fought county employment with
Speaker 3: its very clear, transparent hiring salaries, and the civil service
Speaker 3: system would be much a much better pathway to middle
Speaker 3: class stability than working in the private sector. Because of
Speaker 3: these protections. Thomas Nagucci was still you know, he's still
Speaker 3: this is nineteen sixty seven, and he is still getting
Speaker 3: his bearings and he's not quite sure if he should
Speaker 3: go for this job. And his wife, who is you know,
Speaker 3: she's unusual for her time. She has a PhD in microbiology,
Speaker 3: and she's a person who has her education interrupted. You know,
Speaker 3: she was incarcerated in a concentration camp for the duration
Speaker 3: of World War two because of the forcible removal of
Speaker 3: Japanese Americans from the West Coast. And you know, she
Speaker 3: also was never able to find an academic appointment, even
Speaker 3: with a PhD in microbiology, most likely because not only
Speaker 3: because she was Japanese American, but she was a woman,
Speaker 3: and it was very difficult in the post war era
Speaker 3: for female scientists, and so and she is, you know,
Speaker 3: she is her husband's number one champion. But she also
Speaker 3: like burns with this rage about the structures of discrimination
Speaker 3: that limit like his, you know, occupational you know, opportunities
Speaker 3: as well as her own. And then the community writ
Speaker 3: large and so she encourages him, you know, ultimately to applay.
Speaker 3: He scores well in the top three. And then what
Speaker 3: is very interesting is that once he is in the
Speaker 3: top three, and it is a possibility that he could
Speaker 3: be appointed by the board of supervisors the County Medical Association,
Speaker 3: which is very powerful. It includes UCLA and USC the
Speaker 3: University of Southern California. They decided Thomas Negucci was not acceptable,
Speaker 3: and they do it in this way by saying he's
Speaker 3: too young, he's too inexperience. He's forty at this point,
Speaker 3: and they come up with a laundry list of reasons
Speaker 3: why he's not qualified. I was particularly struck with the
Speaker 3: University of Southern California's medical school director at the time,
Speaker 3: who said Thomas Nagucci was unqualified as to be the
Speaker 3: county corner because the county corner was also responsible for
Speaker 3: training pathologists. You know, they use you know, the Corner's
Speaker 3: office as a training site. But he seemed to be
Speaker 3: unaware that Thomas Negucci was already teaching at USC, which
Speaker 3: was quite glaring to me. But what really undergirds it
Speaker 3: is the racism that they could not imagine or even
Speaker 3: tolerate someone that looked like Thomas Negucci in the highest
Speaker 3: ranking medical position in the county. And so they start
Speaker 3: what is essentially a smear campaign, and Thomas Negucci, who
Speaker 3: until right this point had been you know, ha had
Speaker 3: a pretty quiet life, finds every aspect of his career,
Speaker 3: his disposition, his personal life like in the papers, and
Speaker 3: he doesn't know what quit to do. But not only
Speaker 3: his wife, but the community comes in support of him.
Speaker 3: And then what the most important organization that comes to
Speaker 3: his support is the Los Angeles County Employee Association, which
Speaker 3: comes in full throttle support of Naguchi, not because of
Speaker 3: the racism and the discrimination in the case, but more
Speaker 3: so because of the fact that they don't want the
Speaker 3: civil service system to be undermined, and they knew that
Speaker 3: this could potentially be a huge issue because what the
Speaker 3: county Medical Association wanted to do was not use the
Speaker 3: county civil service list and decide to bring in their
Speaker 3: own person using their own networks, and you know, they
Speaker 3: brought any number of candidates to Los Angeles. As you know,
Speaker 3: the County Board of Supervisors is trying to figure out
Speaker 3: what to do. The Japanese American community and others that
Speaker 3: come out to criticize this, and then ultimately the Board
Speaker 3: of Supervisors step in and then they realized, right, we're
Speaker 3: still not that far out two years from the Watts Uprising.
Speaker 3: They're thinking that this is so racially polarizing that it
Speaker 3: could turn into another major flashpoint in the city. And ultimately,
Speaker 3: at the end of the day, then Thomas Negucci gets appointed,
Speaker 3: but it is you know, with a very strict six
Speaker 3: month probationary period, and when he becomes corner, he's in shock.
Speaker 3: He didn't think it was you know, he you know,
Speaker 3: you know, literally there were headlines that say, you know,
Speaker 3: Thomas Negucci passed over, and you know, and even the
Speaker 3: Japanese American community at the time, they're like, you know,
Speaker 3: what can we do? This is what it is. And
Speaker 3: then in this kind of moment, he gets appointed and
Speaker 3: that launches his career as the chief corner.
Speaker 2: Let's use this as an opportunity to stop to hear
Speaker 2: these messages. Now, Thomas Negucci is has the job that
Speaker 2: he always wanted, chief corner of La County, and so
Speaker 2: he always wanted this job as chief corner, and then
Speaker 2: he was in that position, and you write about it.
Speaker 2: Where Negucci was when he heard about actually was watching
Speaker 2: TV with his wife the Democratic presidential primary and then
Speaker 2: right after that he got a call regarding Robert F. Kennedy.
Speaker 2: Tell us about this most famous of Thomas Negucci's case
Speaker 2: and his involvement.
Speaker 3: Thomas Nagucci liked the rest of the country was in
Speaker 3: absolute shock, but he also recognized that if Senator Kennedy
Speaker 3: were to die, then he would be responsible for the
Speaker 3: death investigation. And recognizing this, he draws on his network
Speaker 3: of forensic pathologists across the country, and he has given
Speaker 3: the advice that he cannot seed control if things go
Speaker 3: very badly. He could not see control of the autopsy
Speaker 3: and the investigation because already, because of what had happened
Speaker 3: in the aftermath of John F. Kennedy's death and all
Speaker 3: the rumor and conjecture and conspiracy that had generated. And
Speaker 3: so while he is, you know, in shock, he goes
Speaker 3: into he begins to make preparations, and I think the
Speaker 3: single most important thing that he did was to make
Speaker 3: the decision, if something should happen, not to transport rfks
Speaker 3: By to the corner suite in the Hall of Justice,
Speaker 3: which would have you know, it's like three four miles away,
Speaker 3: but instead to do the autopsy in the hospital, because
Speaker 3: again he wasn't going to release control over the investigation.
Speaker 3: And so there are all these things that are working
Speaker 3: against him. Even the district attorney doesn't want to you know,
Speaker 3: the district attorney had pointed out, well, it's very obvious,
Speaker 3: what had you know, after you know, after Robert Kennedy dies,
Speaker 3: seems that it's very clear what has happened, you know,
Speaker 3: we know, so there doesn't need to be an autopsy,
Speaker 3: and the family didn't want an autopsy, and so Thomas
Speaker 3: Ninguji convinces the family. He also brings in a team
Speaker 3: of observers from from Washington to to make sure right
Speaker 3: that he has witnesses. And then he also brings in
Speaker 3: not only does he have his own staff, but he
Speaker 3: brings in other prominent medical examiners to come in a system,
Speaker 3: and he conducts a six hour autopsy and it is
Speaker 3: routinely referred to as the perfect autopsy, right, and and
Speaker 3: it sets the bar for what an autopsy should be.
Speaker 3: And and because the autopsy for John Kennedy had been
Speaker 3: so botched because it had not been conducted by a
Speaker 3: trained forensic pathologist, et cetera. And so he he this
Speaker 3: is high stakes, it's high pressure. He does he does
Speaker 3: the autopsy and and then I think this is the
Speaker 3: this is the definitive of men like moment in his career.
Speaker 3: And this I think after this in many ways, he
Speaker 3: this defines his national and international reputation. And this is
Speaker 3: what he thinks will cement right and make all the
Speaker 3: conjectures about his ability, his qualifications. He thought all that
Speaker 3: would go away after after the autopsy, particularly of of RFK.
Speaker 3: And but but that is that is not the case.
Speaker 3: But by doing Robert Kennedy's autopsy and the connection of
Speaker 3: the Kennedys, both John and and Robert Kennedy to Marilyn Monroe,
Speaker 3: he gets swept up again into the conspiracy theories not
Speaker 3: only tied to Marilyn Monroe, but you know, particularly around,
Speaker 3: you know, was there a second shooter, and and he
Speaker 3: gets tied up in the Sir Hansen case, and so
Speaker 3: he is embroiled in this for the rest of his career.
Speaker 3: But the autopsy itself, I mean, people still talk about
Speaker 3: it as the perfect autopsy.
Speaker 2: You're also right, as you mentioned, he testifies as the
Speaker 2: last person at trial, as a witness at the Sir
Speaker 2: Handser hand trial. M And there's a lot that he
Speaker 2: learns from that appearance and being involved in this case
Speaker 2: and what he liked about being in that position.
Speaker 3: Yeah, And so as he testifies and he becomes you know,
Speaker 3: in all the you know, the the legal things that
Speaker 3: happen right the case against her answer, and it becomes
Speaker 3: clear that by virtue of autopsying, Robert Kennedy, that he
Speaker 3: becomes like central to the proceedings and he really understands
Speaker 3: how the power of the coroner's office in this particular case.
Speaker 3: And it also comes at a time when he, you know,
Speaker 3: the the County Medical Association you know, did not sort
Speaker 3: of retreat gently into the night after he was appointed.
Speaker 3: You know, they are maneuvering along with people within the
Speaker 3: county to have him, you know, removed, and so that
Speaker 3: is going on, and I think being involved in the
Speaker 3: subsequent trial of Sirensurant, it's a stabilizing force for him
Speaker 3: in the sense that, no matter what is happening, you know,
Speaker 3: in terms of people trying to undermine him, remove him
Speaker 3: from his position as corner, his forensic work stands, and
Speaker 3: you know, his forensic work. Because of this trial, you know,
Speaker 3: he becomes internationally known, he becomes really the expert, the
Speaker 3: leading voice of forensic science in the United States. And
Speaker 3: then also but he also knows. He it's very clear
Speaker 3: he recognizes that the conspiracy theories around all these cases
Speaker 3: being linked to it, you know, also makes him, you know,
Speaker 3: to a certain extent famous and in the way that,
Speaker 3: especially later in his career, he would capitalize on this.
Speaker 2: What were the things that he was accused of two
Speaker 2: get him fired.
Speaker 3: So they accused him of, you know, the most egregious
Speaker 3: for him is that they accused him of drug use,
Speaker 3: They accused him of, you know, poor management. They accused him,
Speaker 3: for example, of wishing for Kennedy's death. And it's an
Speaker 3: exhaustive list. They accused him of cursing in the office.
Speaker 3: I mean, it's an exhaustive list of things and there
Speaker 3: is the chief county administrative officer, for a lot of reasons,
Speaker 3: decides that he's going to go after Nagucchi. And then
Speaker 3: there's a lot of and Nagucci has a mole in
Speaker 3: his office that is tied to Lynn Hollinger, and these
Speaker 3: two men conspire and then draw you know, people in
Speaker 3: his office into this campaign to have him removed. And
Speaker 3: ultimately Lynn Hollinger tells Nagucci, well, you know, you're gonna
Speaker 3: have to resign otherwise I'm going to publicly release all
Speaker 3: these charges against you. And Nagucci is so shocked in
Speaker 3: the moment, and he's so I think, you know, but
Speaker 3: the potential of the embarrassment and the shame not for
Speaker 3: himself but also for the greater community, he resigns, especially
Speaker 3: you know, after talking, you know, taking counsel from some
Speaker 3: of his friends, Like he resigns, and because he would
Speaker 3: have the same salary and he would be assigned to
Speaker 3: another hospital. But then in particular, his wife steps in
Speaker 3: and you know, says absolutely not, like you know, you
Speaker 3: have to fight this, and then another friend of his says,
Speaker 3: you know, you must fight this, and then slowly the
Speaker 3: Japanese American community starts to mobilize behind Nagucci because they
Speaker 3: understand very clearly what this is. He's not being removed
Speaker 3: because of any you know, professional not because he's a
Speaker 3: poor foreigner, right or you know he's bad at his job.
Speaker 3: I mean, he just conducted what people are calling the
Speaker 3: perfect autopsy. It's clearly racially motivated, and you know, they're
Speaker 3: they're attempting to move to remove Thomas Negucci based on this,
Speaker 3: and then they get again the county Civil Service Organization
Speaker 3: gets involved in so there and the Japanese American community
Speaker 3: also aligns with the Mexican Mexican American and black community
Speaker 3: who also are completely outraged because you know, the civil
Speaker 3: service jobs are supposed to be fair. They were supposed
Speaker 3: to provide, particularly non white folks, the opportunity for middle
Speaker 3: class stability, and here here were the powers that it
Speaker 3: was this For many it was like, yeah, this, this
Speaker 3: was supposed to be a place, you know, free from
Speaker 3: this kind of racial discrimination. And they saw it happening
Speaker 3: here and then mobilized. So it's a remarkable story of
Speaker 3: political mobilization of ordinary people. And then I think it's
Speaker 3: really amazing because they used the media in a way
Speaker 3: that's really quite amazing. For example, the Japanese American Citizens League,
Speaker 3: the community organization that becomes, you know, the number one
Speaker 3: champion of you know, Naguchi, and then getting him reinstated.
Speaker 3: Also what happens is that he resigns. He says, I'm
Speaker 3: not going to resign, so they fire him ultimately, and
Speaker 3: then it goes to a civil service commission. And who
Speaker 3: knew a civil service commission hearing could be so exciting.
Speaker 3: But they get, you know, ten thousand signatures and they
Speaker 3: go to the on a scroll, and then they go
Speaker 3: to the Board of Supervisors meeting and then they unfurl
Speaker 3: this scroll. They get the actor George T. Quay of
Speaker 3: Star Trek Fame involved in the case, and so he's
Speaker 3: publicly speaking out. They have marches and demonstrations, and they're
Speaker 3: visiting political offices and demanding that they do something right.
Speaker 3: They're representatives, and these pressures community pressure, political pressure, and ultimately,
Speaker 3: because basically these charges were false, that ultimately gets him reinstated.
Speaker 2: Yes, you say, he's reinstated with full back pay. And
Speaker 2: he was considered the consummate underdog who had outwitted the government,
Speaker 2: and you right, he was not about to let anyone
Speaker 2: forget it. Let's use this as an opportunity to stop
Speaker 2: to hear these messages. Let's talk about a very important
Speaker 2: case that Thomas Negucci was involved in the Manson family
Speaker 2: and Sharon Tate's murder and autopsy.
Speaker 3: Mm hmm, yeah. I think, like a lot of violent
Speaker 3: crime in the post war era, this one, this particular
Speaker 3: case is really frightening in Los Angeles because it takes
Speaker 3: a very long time to find out who killed Sharon Tate,
Speaker 3: who murdered Sharon Tate and her friends, and then the
Speaker 3: other murders that were tied to the Latianca murders, and
Speaker 3: so in this time right there, like you know, people
Speaker 3: call it, right you know, writers and you know, people
Speaker 3: who look at the sixties, you know, call it really
Speaker 3: the end of you know, people call it the end
Speaker 3: of the summer of love. And I'm not sure if
Speaker 3: there ever was a summer of love, but either way
Speaker 3: that it is shocking, and it is violent. People are
Speaker 3: afraid and and in all this when we ultimately get
Speaker 3: you know, people are horrified and frightened because young women
Speaker 3: are involved, and young women are killers, and it's in
Speaker 3: many ways unfathomable to people and largely the case itself.
Speaker 3: You know, the much of the evidence was considered circumstantial.
Speaker 3: You know, it's because also you know, the the perpetrators
Speaker 3: of the crime, many of them were very young women,
Speaker 3: and you know, testimonies, interviews, you know, it was not
Speaker 3: always clear how that they were going to convict Manson
Speaker 3: in this But what is the most important thing is
Speaker 3: the forensic evidence and interpretations of this case point out
Speaker 3: over and over that the forensic evidence was exhaustive and
Speaker 3: that Thomas Negucci's testimony during during the trial that detailed
Speaker 3: detailed the violence of the crime, and also the forensic
Speaker 3: information that clearly linked you know, they demonstrate what kind
Speaker 3: of knife, right, how this happened, and step by step
Speaker 3: really was central to having Manson convicted. And this really
Speaker 3: highlighted the importance of forensic evidence and forensic science in
Speaker 3: many ways, right, Like people are quite conversant now with
Speaker 3: forensic science. You know, people talk about it. You know,
Speaker 3: people talk about DNA fingerprints, evidence, you know, and all
Speaker 3: this knowledge primarily through right the TV franchise CSI and
Speaker 3: everything else that it launched. But I don't think people
Speaker 3: realize that in many ways, you wouldn't have this kind
Speaker 3: of I don't know, this abundance of this kind of
Speaker 3: you know, death investigation, forensic, true crime without Thomas Nagucci,
Speaker 3: and he expertly shows this in the Manson case, and
Speaker 3: I just find it really sort of fascinating that he
Speaker 3: was so central to this. But then much of that
Speaker 3: importance is, you know, disappears from the narrative, from the
Speaker 3: historical narrative. You know, they talk about you know, the
Speaker 3: district attorney, right, and they talk about, you know, all
Speaker 3: these other things, but rarely do people really talk about
Speaker 3: the the forensic and the expert testimony that Naguchi provides.
Speaker 2: His involvement in this case, you write, makes him a
Speaker 2: national celebrity and really corner to the stars.
Speaker 3: Yeah it does.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you write about the involvement in Patty Hurst and
Speaker 2: the SLA Army and Naguchi, what his involvement was in
Speaker 2: this historic case.
Speaker 3: The Patty Hurst is another case that just captivates national
Speaker 3: you know, the attention of people across the US. It's
Speaker 3: a media spectacle, you know, Patty Hurst, you know, the
Speaker 3: the air right to the Hurst fortune is transformed into
Speaker 3: this right is caught up in in sort of the
Speaker 3: politics of the sixties and you know is reborn as
Speaker 3: Tanya the gun wielding bank robbing. This is what this
Speaker 3: is not how nice white women like, right, This was
Speaker 3: not supposed to be there sort of life trajectory. And
Speaker 3: then what happens is that as this hunt is on
Speaker 3: looking for Patty Hurst like, it becomes a national obsession.
Speaker 3: And once they wind up in LA and the police determine,
Speaker 3: the determines that they're in LA, and particularly in South LA,
Speaker 3: the bombing of the house and the police assault in
Speaker 3: the house, the fires, et cetera. And that's where Thomas
Speaker 3: Lagucci gets involved as the autopsy after this conflagration happens.
Speaker 3: This is where he missteps publicly. I think in a
Speaker 3: way that that signals something. And for me when I
Speaker 3: was researching this part of the book is that by
Speaker 3: this time, you know, he is really comfortable in being
Speaker 3: the corners to the start, like only in America can
Speaker 3: you become a celebrity by being celebrity adjacent. In this
Speaker 3: particular way, he missteps and he strays from the forensic
Speaker 3: science to make conjectures about you know, what had happened
Speaker 3: to the leader of the SLA And ultimately he's wrong
Speaker 3: and contradicts his own forensic evidence. And and and I
Speaker 3: think this he pays a high cost for it by
Speaker 3: straying away from from the science. And part of it
Speaker 3: is because for so long the media coverage of this
Speaker 3: kind of goes quiet because there isn't any you know,
Speaker 3: developments in the case. And so he decides to conduct
Speaker 3: a psychological autopsy in a reenactment, and he brings reporters
Speaker 3: to him to the site, and you know, and I
Speaker 3: think this is where things right go off the rails
Speaker 3: for him. And and what's interesting is that he says
Speaker 3: that the leader think commits suicide and and he you know,
Speaker 3: documents all the reasons why he thinks that suicide, when
Speaker 3: in fact, it turns out it was not suicide at all,
Speaker 3: but he had diag most likely from an LAPD bullet.
Speaker 3: And so because by saying it was suicide like it
Speaker 3: would make the SLA martyrs in this this really undermines
Speaker 3: his credibility.
Speaker 2: You're right, that controversy continues, and with other cases like
Speaker 2: the Ron Settle case and the parents involved and his
Speaker 2: encounter again with Johnny Cochrane.
Speaker 3: And so Ron Settles is a football player. He is
Speaker 3: a young black man in who lives, you know, in
Speaker 3: this part of Los Angeles County that includes Long Beach
Speaker 3: and Carson in this particular place called Signal Hill, which
Speaker 3: is this strange little city that is in the middle
Speaker 3: of Long Beach, so Long Beach, the city surrounds it,
Speaker 3: and it had long been known for its racist police force,
Speaker 3: and it was a place where Ronnie Settles, you know,
Speaker 3: met his death at the hands of a police officer
Speaker 3: who was clearly racist. And particularly this is where we
Speaker 3: see the first sort of national coverage around the use
Speaker 3: of the police choke hold, right and which will like
Speaker 3: continue to be debated its use right even even to today,
Speaker 3: even despite being banned and so at various points. And
Speaker 3: so what happens here in the Settles case is that
Speaker 3: Nagucci is facing all sorts of you know, challenges in
Speaker 3: the Corner's office, you know, he is the office is
Speaker 3: almost always underfunded, The deaths, unexplained deaths are skyrocketing that
Speaker 3: require autopsies, and in the office is in a great
Speaker 3: deal of disarray. And part of it is due to
Speaker 3: the fact that Naguchi also is involved more increasingly more
Speaker 3: with with high profile national cases and you know, other
Speaker 3: kinds of work in addition to what he was doing
Speaker 3: in the corner's office. But this case in particular becomes
Speaker 3: a flashpoint because of the way Ron Settles dies and
Speaker 3: you know there they accuse him of drug use. They
Speaker 3: paint him in a way that is very predictable for
Speaker 3: the black community and outrageous at the same time. And
Speaker 3: he was a football star. He you know, the fact
Speaker 3: that you know is essentially what happens, right, what starts
Speaker 3: this unfortunate and terrible set of ends is you know,
Speaker 3: he's driving all black and and so this unfolds, and
Speaker 3: what comes to light is that he's taken into jail
Speaker 3: and he dies. And what the police say, the signal
Speaker 3: Hell Police Department says he dies of suicide. And this
Speaker 3: is what Initially the corner who did the autopsy was
Speaker 3: not Nagucci. Nogucci oversaw the process as the chief corner,
Speaker 3: but you know, a junior corner did the autopsy. And
Speaker 3: what ultimately comes to light, right, they do say it
Speaker 3: supports suicide. And then what happens is then you know,
Speaker 3: his family is outraged, and then so they demand corner's inquest,
Speaker 3: they demand you know, other investigation, and then Johnny Cochrane
Speaker 3: gets involved, and at this point, Johnny cochrane has become,
Speaker 3: you know, quite successful. He's not as successful as he's
Speaker 3: going to be, you know, in another decade, but he's
Speaker 3: a prominent attorney in Los Angeles. But he is is
Speaker 3: just so shocked, I think, and taken with this case,
Speaker 3: and he gets involved. And then ultimately what happens is
Speaker 3: that they learn that the death investigation had largely been
Speaker 3: botched by the coroner's office, and this is further exacerbated
Speaker 3: by the fact that wanting some of the publicity in
Speaker 3: this case, Negucci reenacts the death of Ron Settles and
Speaker 3: he goes to the to the cell right where he dies,
Speaker 3: and then he re enacts the hanging and discovers that
Speaker 3: none of the evidence fits and it's demonstra in its reenactment.
Speaker 3: And then they find out that and this will become
Speaker 3: the beginning of the end of Thomas and Gucci's career
Speaker 3: as the chief corner because an investigative reporter at the
Speaker 3: Los Angeles Times starts to ask questions like she wants,
Speaker 3: you know, she contacts the mortician who prepared Ron Settle's
Speaker 3: body for burial, and he noted that there were bruises
Speaker 3: all over his neck, and not only on his neck,
Speaker 3: but on his body. He had clearly been beaten, and
Speaker 3: this was not something that had, you know, surfaced in
Speaker 3: the public. And then also it was found out that
Speaker 3: Negucci did a reenactment with a person that in no
Speaker 3: way fit any of the parameters of Ron Settle's height
Speaker 3: and weight. That was problematic, but most problematically that evidence
Speaker 3: was missing. So all of Ron's Mette's close had disappeared
Speaker 3: from the time on the day that he died. And
Speaker 3: so it was clear for this investigative reporter of that
Speaker 3: something was not right. And then so she starts to
Speaker 3: ask questions and this will be the great unraveling of
Speaker 3: Nagucci's career.
Speaker 2: Let Jesus as an opportunity to stop to hear these messages.
Speaker 2: Now you say, the unraveling of his career begins, but
Speaker 2: he's also involved in the Natalie Wood murder case. Just
Speaker 2: tell us briefly his involvement in that case.
Speaker 3: You have to take one step back from Nataliewood is
Speaker 3: actually William Holden's death, which Thomas Negucci also supervises that autopsy.
Speaker 3: And what basically unfolds is that Thomas Ingucci his one
Speaker 3: commitment was that like the dead, right, he spoke for
Speaker 3: the dead, but also his work and the work of
Speaker 3: forensic science was in service of the living. And so
Speaker 3: he he very clearly, you know, pointed out that William Holden,
Speaker 3: you know, died because he drank too much. And this
Speaker 3: was a time, like we're really accustomed to hearing about,
Speaker 3: you know, every single detail of a celebrities life, including
Speaker 3: you know what they were, you know, do they drink,
Speaker 3: do they not drink, do they do drunks? Like you know,
Speaker 3: this is something that's very common, but this is not
Speaker 3: the case. Even in the early eighties. You know, these
Speaker 3: things were considered sort of you know, beyond the boundary
Speaker 3: of what was acceptable, Like this was private, and Thomas
Speaker 3: de Gucci thought it should not be kept private, this
Speaker 3: should be public. And so he also does this in
Speaker 3: the Natalie Wood case and this right, and people are outraged.
Speaker 3: Natalie Wood was a much loved child star who becomes right,
Speaker 3: you know, an adult star in this period as well,
Speaker 3: and ultimately some very famous people. And this is probably
Speaker 3: one of the most surprising things. You know, when I
Speaker 3: was working in the archives to find a letter on
Speaker 3: very heavy this beautiful stationery embossed with the name Frank
Speaker 3: Sinatra at the top of the letter.
Speaker 2: Wow.
Speaker 3: He and you know he and Natalie would have this
Speaker 3: long relationship which I will not speculate on here, but
Speaker 3: basically that you know, he says that part of the
Speaker 3: reason that she drowned is most likely because she was intoxicated.
Speaker 3: And you know, Frank Sinatra's outraged. He can delivers the
Speaker 3: letter to the board of supervisors and you know, this
Speaker 3: brings you know, the Screen Actors Guild comes out outraged
Speaker 3: and demands accountability from the county. And and what what
Speaker 3: Nagucchi discovers in this in this case is that something
Speaker 3: has changed. The political moment has changed. He no longer
Speaker 3: has the same you know, celebrity turns on him and
Speaker 3: and I think it was really painful for him for
Speaker 3: this to happen. And and because of this, it leads
Speaker 3: this combined with the invest right because Natalie Wood happens
Speaker 3: as the Ron Settles case is unfolding as well, and
Speaker 3: so all now he has a lot of media attention,
Speaker 3: but not the kind that he wants.
Speaker 2: And that journalist from La Times, Laura Becklun, continues with
Speaker 2: her battle to try to get Nagucci to resign or
Speaker 2: be fired.
Speaker 3: Yeah, well, hers, it's not a battle necessarily to get
Speaker 3: him to resign and be fired. Is that she just
Speaker 3: starts pulling on these threads right as an investigative journalist.
Speaker 3: But it is her work that leads to the Board
Speaker 3: of supervisors to ultimately a fire in Nagucci. And what
Speaker 3: happens is this time around, they're very careful and they
Speaker 3: even write a memo, an internal memo, that we need
Speaker 3: to be really careful here to make sure that none
Speaker 3: of this, any of the evidence that we collect can
Speaker 3: be deemed racist or that we're targeting him. And so
Speaker 3: they build a very very careful case to make sure
Speaker 3: that they have the grounds to dismiss him based on
Speaker 3: mismanagement of his office. So rather than focusing on his
Speaker 3: behavior in a particular case, like they're really talking about mismanagement.
Speaker 3: And then there's some horrific things, right they you know,
Speaker 3: somehow you know, medical waste that is supposed to be
Speaker 3: disposed of, you know, incinerated, you know, wind up in
Speaker 3: a landfill. And there are some really graphic descriptions of
Speaker 3: the person who discovers this, and it's traced back to
Speaker 3: the coroner's office wait times, you know, for death certificates,
Speaker 3: you know, increases exponentially. You know, the bodies of the
Speaker 3: dead are being robbed, there's cross contamination of evidence, and
Speaker 3: in many ways it is you know, Thomas and Gucci
Speaker 3: was not a stellar administrator, but at the same time,
Speaker 3: he was woefully underfunded and so but I think that
Speaker 3: combined with his insistence that the coroner's office maintain its independence,
Speaker 3: and he was not afraid to speak up and speak
Speaker 3: out on things that were unpopular or could be embarrassing
Speaker 3: to powerful people.
Speaker 2: You know, it.
Speaker 3: All fed into this campaign to fire him in the
Speaker 3: early eighties.
Speaker 2: You say he was suspended with pay ultimately, but it
Speaker 2: was very difficult on Naguchi because of the divorce, alimony
Speaker 2: and relinquishing some properties, still paying legal bills.
Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, it was financially you know, it was
Speaker 3: very difficult for him in this time period. And I
Speaker 3: think what was hard for him also was that he
Speaker 3: did not have the community support in the same way
Speaker 3: that he did in the sixties, and a lot of
Speaker 3: community members had decided that this wasn't really an issue,
Speaker 3: this wasn't racial discrimination, but this was and I still
Speaker 3: think some racial discrimination factored into his removal is firing
Speaker 3: in the eighties, but they pointed out it is really
Speaker 3: about his mismanagement and as the investigative, you know, journalism
Speaker 3: on the Corner's office unfold. You know, people are really
Speaker 3: shocked at the state of the Corner's office and you know,
Speaker 3: and some of Thomas Negucci's sort of behavior. And so
Speaker 3: the community, you know, does not come out in this
Speaker 3: the same way as they did in the sixties and
Speaker 3: without the support and and also the community is pulled
Speaker 3: into other directions. You know, the Japanese American community in
Speaker 3: this early period is working on the Redress movement for
Speaker 3: Japanese incarceration during the war, and so they're doing that
Speaker 3: and they they have less time, you know, to to
Speaker 3: roll out a campaign and support of Thomas Negucci. And
Speaker 3: also by the eighties, he's not like like, you know,
Speaker 3: there are other Asian Americas who are in powerful positions
Speaker 3: in the county and he doesn't have. It wasn't they
Speaker 3: didn't have the same kind of urgency as they did
Speaker 3: in the sixties to protect the civil service system. So
Speaker 3: it was a very very different time.
Speaker 2: You say, in June eighty four, there was a hearing
Speaker 2: to reverse the demotion. It was refused and eighty six
Speaker 2: another appeal was denied and then March eighty seventh ruling
Speaker 2: of the District Court of Appeals. With that ruling, Nagucci
Speaker 2: accepted defeat. The fighting coroner had done fighting, you.
Speaker 3: Right, yeah, yeah. And this is sort of the remarkable
Speaker 3: thing about Thomas Nagucci is that I can only imagine,
Speaker 3: you know, that it was really difficult. It was really
Speaker 3: difficult to lose the job that he wanted so badly
Speaker 3: and had for so long. But he vents himself and
Speaker 3: he ultimately becomes, you know, the chief of pathology at
Speaker 3: USC County General Hospital, and he trains, you know, a
Speaker 3: generation of pathologists. He returns to doing research full time,
Speaker 3: and I think by teaching and doing research it serves
Speaker 3: his better nature. And ultimately he resigned and that resigns.
Speaker 3: But he retires in nineteen ninety nine, and he had
Speaker 3: been out of the media spif for a very long time,
Speaker 3: and he's just so incredibly gracious, and he talks about
Speaker 3: how he loved every single minute of working for the
Speaker 3: county despite all the you know, the very difficult things
Speaker 3: that he faced, and in that moment, like you could
Speaker 3: tell that he like the second part of his career
Speaker 3: in the county, that he really enjoyed it. He enjoyed
Speaker 3: teaching and and again he reinvents himself in this way.
Speaker 3: And I think, uh, that is is really is really remarkable.
Speaker 3: It also probably helped, you know, in terms of his
Speaker 3: ego that when he when he did was not reinstated. Uh,
Speaker 3: his memoir Corner was on the best sellers list, and
Speaker 3: when you know, the decision was made not to read,
Speaker 3: you know, to reinstate him. He was on a book
Speaker 3: tour and then he co authored two mystery novels and
Speaker 3: then another you know book about forensic cases, and and
Speaker 3: so you know that he has his thriving career as
Speaker 3: a writer. And and so I think that also helped
Speaker 3: kind of assuage his you know, ego and his feelings too.
Speaker 3: But and in the end, right, he still does forensic research.
Speaker 3: He is you know, he goes to you know, the
Speaker 3: friend major you know, forensic conferences, and you know, he
Speaker 3: is still standing when most of the folks who were
Speaker 3: so adamant that he was unqualified and people who critiqued him,
Speaker 3: they're now all gone.
Speaker 2: And you write too that he reunites ultimately with his
Speaker 2: beloved supporter Jsco.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 3: They you know, I was just really gratified when I discovered.
Speaker 3: You know, I had a hard time finding that information.
Speaker 3: I had, you know, heard, you know, sort of secondhand.
Speaker 3: 'smen said, Oh, they did reunite. They got remarried, and
Speaker 3: you know, and after being divorced for so long, they
Speaker 3: do remarry and he takes you know, he takes care
Speaker 3: of her until she dies in twenty fifteen. He's had
Speaker 3: a remarkable career.
Speaker 2: You write. At the time of this writing, he is
Speaker 2: in his late nineties and the majority of the supporters
Speaker 2: and political enemies are gone. As you had mentioned, how
Speaker 2: old is Thomas Nagucci today?
Speaker 3: Ninety eight?
Speaker 2: And when was the last time you spoke with him?
Speaker 3: So I was really fortunate, and this is a very
Speaker 3: random story. I had a very hard time. I really
Speaker 3: wanted to interview him for the book. And what had
Speaker 3: happened is, you know, I had an email for him
Speaker 3: that someone passed on. I wasn't sure if you know,
Speaker 3: he was receiving the emails. I reached out. You know,
Speaker 3: he still has an office at usc A, University of Southing, California,
Speaker 3: and so I reached out and reached out never heard,
Speaker 3: and so, you know, I'm writing the book and then
Speaker 3: I had to have eye surgery earlier in the like
Speaker 3: in November of this past year, in twenty four. My
Speaker 3: husband is sitting there and then he hears the receptionists
Speaker 3: call out the name Thomas Negucci and he looks up
Speaker 3: and there's Thomas Negucci and and so and he has
Speaker 3: his uh foster daughter, like, hey, his his daughter who
Speaker 3: is with him? And you know, she comes out and
Speaker 3: then and then I come out and then my husband
Speaker 3: tells Thomas Negucci's here, and I literally just had eye
Speaker 3: surgery of a patch over my eye, and right, I'm
Speaker 3: just really, you know, not one hundred percent. And then
Speaker 3: and then I was like, but oh my gosh, that
Speaker 3: is Thomas Dagucci. And then I go and introduce myself
Speaker 3: and then pass on my phone number. And then they
Speaker 3: invite me to come and have coffee one day and
Speaker 3: I go, and now I'm sitting It was a surreal moment.
Speaker 3: I am sitting in a garden with these beautiful persimon
Speaker 3: trees and you know, there are flowers and butterflies. It's
Speaker 3: just it's just beautiful and I'm sitting there, you know,
Speaker 3: just chatting with Thomas Negucci, and he was gracious and
Speaker 3: lovely and kind, and you know, there were you know,
Speaker 3: unfortunately the book was pretty much done, but I was,
Speaker 3: you know, I still have some fact checking questions that
Speaker 3: he was just you know, so kind in the answering
Speaker 3: and so yeah, like he's.
Speaker 2: Remarkable, absolutely, and so is this book about his life
Speaker 2: as chief coroner in La County. I want to thank
Speaker 2: you so much and soon Choi for coming on and
Speaker 2: talking about LA Coroner, Thomas Negucci and death in Hollywood.
Speaker 2: Can you tell us for people to want to refer to.
Speaker 2: Do you have a website or do any social media? Please?
Speaker 3: I do. My author website is a N N E
Speaker 3: s O O n C HOI asun choi dot com
Speaker 3: and you'll find events, some of the new things that
Speaker 3: I'm working on. And then and you can follow me
Speaker 3: on Instagram at LA true Crime. I talk on my
Speaker 3: social media. I also do some things about local LA
Speaker 3: true crime, things that I have found and that I'm
Speaker 3: interested in. And and it's also you know, my my
Speaker 3: author handle, and you know, I promote events there, you know,
Speaker 3: and interested in anyone who's interested in true crime.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, thank you so much and soon joy La Coroner,
Speaker 2: Thomas Negucci and death in Hollywood. Thank you so much
Speaker 2: for this interview and you have a great evening and
Speaker 2: good night.
Speaker 3: Oh thanks for having me, Thank you, good night,