Speaker 1: Welcome to break Free and Trust a redesign for living.
Speaker 1: Join me Chris and.
Speaker 2: Me Jacqueline for real conversations about life, death, and everything
Speaker 2: in between.
Speaker 1: Learn to connect with your intrinsic power to grow and heal,
Speaker 1: how to laugh at your own humanness and not take
Speaker 1: life too seriously.
Speaker 2: Through healthy conversations between the feminine and masculine, you learn
Speaker 2: how to harness the power of relationship and the mirror,
Speaker 2: to befriend your shadow, and to trust that any obstacle
Speaker 2: that gets in your way is there to help you grow.
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Speaker 1: and ultimate freedom.
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Speaker 2: them that does.
Speaker 1: Get ready to be your friend the wisdom of your
Speaker 1: body and the power of your mind.
Speaker 2: Break Free and Trust starts.
Speaker 3: Now, and welcome to break Free and Trust are redesigned
Speaker 3: for living.
Speaker 2: I'm Chris, I name Jacqueline.
Speaker 3: So here's an image that has never left me. A
Speaker 3: resentment is like drinking a little poison every day and
Speaker 3: expecting the other person to die. So let's sit with
Speaker 3: that for a second. It is absolutely absurd, and yet
Speaker 3: almost all of us are doing exactly that right now,
Speaker 3: carrying resentments towards people, places, and things. And some of
Speaker 3: those resentments we know about, but many more we don't,
Speaker 3: and they are quietly running in the background, and they're
Speaker 3: coloring everything we do. So Jack and I have come
Speaker 3: to believe that to truly break free, you have to
Speaker 3: become resentment free, not resentment managed, certainly, not resentment justified,
Speaker 3: just free. So why do we hold onto them? And
Speaker 3: what do we secretly think we're getting from them? What
Speaker 3: is that actually costing us to carry them? How do
Speaker 3: we finally let them go? The ones we know about
Speaker 3: and the ones we don't. All this and more in
Speaker 3: the next hour and for live years. The show will
Speaker 3: also be open to questions in the second half of
Speaker 3: the show, So calling at one nine three zero two
Speaker 3: eight one nine, or just write your questions in the chat.
Speaker 3: We'd love to hear from you.
Speaker 2: So you mentioned that image that resentment is like drinking
Speaker 2: poison and waiting for another person to die, and that
Speaker 2: it never left you, And then it's sort of you
Speaker 2: know that that image leaves even this place of really
Speaker 2: recognizing the insanity of what that means what does it
Speaker 2: mean to you? What does that metaphor really mean to
Speaker 2: you when you think about it?
Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't know if you like if you have
Speaker 3: this where they there's these powerful sayings, metaphors, symbols that
Speaker 3: sort of show up and they just get emblazoned in you. Yep,
Speaker 3: this is one of those ones for me, I mean
Speaker 3: one of the most powerful ones, because I think when
Speaker 3: this idea was first introduced to me, I was like
Speaker 3: a little ball of resentments. Like literally, that's how it
Speaker 3: defined myself.
Speaker 2: When was it first introduced to you?
Speaker 3: This is this is like probably what eight years ago
Speaker 3: when I'm sort of like in this, you know, the peak,
Speaker 3: the peak of my alcoholism and addiction, blaming the whole
Speaker 3: world it was everybody else's fault but mine, resenting everyone
Speaker 3: and everything for not helping me or why I had
Speaker 3: my problems. And this was just presented to me by
Speaker 3: a friend, and it was I mean, I guess, in hindsight,
Speaker 3: was pretty close to me starting to do the work
Speaker 3: to get better. But I just remember sitting with it
Speaker 3: and just like thinking about it and realized how absurdly
Speaker 3: obvious it was, Like me sitting around being angry at
Speaker 3: people me wanting people to be different than they are,
Speaker 3: me wanting these situations different they are, wasn't doing anything
Speaker 3: to help those situations. It was just just basically like
Speaker 3: a poison to my soul, making me sicker and sicker
Speaker 3: and sicker. And I saw it in that instance. I
Speaker 3: didn't do anything about it right away, but it became
Speaker 3: one of those things that I carried with me as
Speaker 3: I went forward and started started started to show up
Speaker 3: and in all the work I was doing, all all
Speaker 3: always seemed to center around resentments. Where am I carrying it?
Speaker 3: What am I wanting to be different? And how can
Speaker 3: I let it go? And that image every time come
Speaker 3: up where I'd want to hang on to it would
Speaker 3: be like, oh, I'm sipping that poison again. How absurd?
Speaker 3: And just I just gets picture myself with this little
Speaker 3: cup of black poison, drinking it and leering at someone saying,
Speaker 3: I'll show you right. It's just the absurdity of it
Speaker 3: and just never left me.
Speaker 2: And am I right in? Assuming that? That's an interesting
Speaker 2: way to say that. Is it true that a lot
Speaker 2: of your work now as a coach actually centers around
Speaker 2: helping people to identify and surrender their resentments?
Speaker 3: Yeah, that and other things, but that that's a real
Speaker 3: critical piece that those resentments tend to be the like
Speaker 3: the little creaks or streams that leads to the bigger things,
Speaker 3: like the fears and the limiting beliefs. The resentments are
Speaker 3: sort of how are they? How they're obviously manifesting, So
Speaker 3: starting there and eroding those we get to the bottom
Speaker 3: of a lot of things.
Speaker 2: So you just said something really interesting, and as we
Speaker 2: were getting ready for this podcast, something about resentments came
Speaker 2: very clear for me. But I think you kind of
Speaker 2: just alluded to it, so I'll let you go with it,
Speaker 2: which is that you start with resentments, but they're like
Speaker 2: the little creeks that lead you to places of limiting
Speaker 2: beliefs and fears. Yes, can you say more about that?
Speaker 3: I think I would see it the other way around.
Speaker 3: We have limiting beliefs, that fears that then that are
Speaker 3: the big ocean in the rivers that trickle up and
Speaker 3: manifest themselves in these resentments of how we you know,
Speaker 3: resentments of me effectively wanting someone to be different than
Speaker 3: they are. I think they should be different than they are.
Speaker 3: I think that situation should be different it is I
Speaker 3: think this should be different. It is, and I'm going
Speaker 3: to sit there and be angry about it. Well, it's
Speaker 3: coming from my belief system of how things should be,
Speaker 3: and I'm getting angry at the fact and not the
Speaker 3: way I think should be. So it's the first indication
Speaker 3: of well, how do I think things should be? Because
Speaker 3: that's the problem. How things are, how things are if
Speaker 3: I have a problem with them, that's where I need
Speaker 3: to start looking.
Speaker 2: So do you think that resentments and resistance go hand
Speaker 2: in hand?
Speaker 3: They can, and often do. It's not a necessary insufficient condition,
Speaker 3: but for sure they do. It definitely goes with conflict.
Speaker 3: Whatever I resent, I'm in conflict with whether I'm resisting
Speaker 3: it or not. But I'm definitely in conflict with it.
Speaker 3: And I can resist things that they don't resent. That's
Speaker 3: why that's why I say it.
Speaker 2: I guess for me, I would assume that if I'm
Speaker 2: in conflict with something, then I'm in resistance too.
Speaker 3: Yes, But I think if you can resist something and
Speaker 3: not resent something, that's true. Yeah, that's more what I'm
Speaker 3: trying to say. Like, there's you know, there's something happening,
Speaker 3: I'm going to resist it because I don't believe in that.
Speaker 3: But I did not resent it because I respect the
Speaker 3: other person, the other side's vision of why they think
Speaker 3: it's a good idea, and I could have mutual respect
Speaker 3: for it. Yet and I'm going to resist it because
Speaker 3: I think there might be a different way.
Speaker 2: Okay, so something I actually would continue to hold this
Speaker 2: idea of the creek to the ocean and the way
Speaker 2: that I saw it, because I see it differently. You're
Speaker 2: talking about trickling up, and I'm thinking more about trickling into.
Speaker 2: And one of the things that became really clear for me,
Speaker 2: maybe even in the last twenty minutes, is that our
Speaker 2: resentments are actually a reflection of the places that we're
Speaker 2: unwilling to look at in ourselves. They we tend to
Speaker 2: feel resentful towards people, places, and things when an event,
Speaker 2: a person, a thing is actually tapping into a shadow
Speaker 2: piece of ourselves that we're unwilling to look at a
Speaker 2: place where we might actually feel weak, insecure, powerless, and
Speaker 2: resentment is almost it's almost like it feels anyways, not
Speaker 2: that it is. It feels empowering. Stepping into anger and
Speaker 2: blame feels far more powerful on the surface than asking
Speaker 2: the question what's getting triggered in me, what piece of me,
Speaker 2: what young piece of me, is being tripped up here
Speaker 2: that I then want to go and react and get
Speaker 2: angry with or carry resentment toward another person. And I
Speaker 2: had never really thought about it that way. And the
Speaker 2: idea of the insanity that you were speaking about in
Speaker 2: terms of resentment, which I find interesting, is we were
Speaker 2: just talking before the podcast about the French word for resentment,
Speaker 2: which is rassment or restaurants, which means to feel again.
Speaker 2: And the insanity of the process is that whatever it
Speaker 2: is that's tripping us up, when we carry around resentments,
Speaker 2: we're feeling it over and over and over again, the
Speaker 2: very thing that we're not wanting to feel that doesn't
Speaker 2: feel good. We are just simply on repeat in our
Speaker 2: minds and then in our bodies and in our overall experience,
Speaker 2: which is the definition of insanity.
Speaker 3: In a lot of ways, resentments now we're equating a
Speaker 3: form of insanity.
Speaker 2: Well, they are absolutely a form of insanity. And you
Speaker 2: talked about poison in that image. And you know, for me,
Speaker 2: when I think about resentments, I think about this korea
Speaker 2: that we teach often in our practice, which is a
Speaker 2: career for entering, and when when we speak to it,
Speaker 2: and we teach it. What we're really speaking to is
Speaker 2: this idea that any any anger that we experience that
Speaker 2: we don't actually express and share in a healthy way
Speaker 2: gets turned inward and it gets turned on us, and
Speaker 2: actually that experience ends up becoming disease because it is
Speaker 2: poison for our body, because we end up eating ourselves
Speaker 2: from the inside out instead of actually dealing with the
Speaker 2: issue at hand.
Speaker 3: He said, you know that you presented that beautifully. He said,
Speaker 3: two things that were I'm just putting together now. So
Speaker 3: this idea of these resentments there are effectively this external
Speaker 3: projection onto the world that that create diseases than us.
Speaker 3: But we don't look at them, or we have a
Speaker 3: resistance to looking at them. And why is that Well,
Speaker 3: because in a certain sense they feel good. They allow
Speaker 3: us to feel morally superior. We take the moral high ground.
Speaker 3: We're holding them over people. It's almost just this internal
Speaker 3: sense of power over the world and other people that
Speaker 3: we are holding into ourselves that cuts us off from saying, hey,
Speaker 3: what's going on with the me that I'm doing these
Speaker 3: things right? That's why it obscures it.
Speaker 2: I think, yeah, and I think that as we carry
Speaker 2: resentments more and more. What we do over time is
Speaker 2: that we build a case against another person, an old
Speaker 2: memory and event, et cetera. And that case gets stronger
Speaker 2: and stronger, which actually becomes it feels it feels like strength.
Speaker 2: What it is is we're building harder and harder armor
Speaker 2: around our hearts, which then prevents us from being able
Speaker 2: to actually look inside and ask what part of me
Speaker 2: is feeling hurt right now? What part of me is
Speaker 2: feeling small, insecure, unlovable, unworthy, et cetera, et cetera, which
Speaker 2: we've talked about in many other podcasts, And we build
Speaker 2: this armor, as you said, of self superiority. But what
Speaker 2: we do over time is that we get further and
Speaker 2: further away from what the actual issue is, yes, and
Speaker 2: it gets harder and harder for us to crack.
Speaker 3: That we locks us into our own subjective reality, which
Speaker 3: is false to begin with. But I almost like resentment
Speaker 3: is the disease of separations and n extremes have strutted
Speaker 3: with othering and isolation. Then it goes to dehumanizing and
Speaker 3: ultimately resentment leads to the endgame of like you know,
Speaker 3: genocide in the worst cases. But it all begins with
Speaker 3: this resentment and then, as you said, becoming the persecutor
Speaker 3: the prosecution of the jury as to why the resentment stands,
Speaker 3: and building the case for it individually then collectively. But
Speaker 3: it's this disease resentment, and it creates separation. And again
Speaker 3: it's it's the antithesis of living spiritually in oneness is
Speaker 3: to hold resentments.
Speaker 2: Hmmm, so we have some really some really I'm going
Speaker 2: to change my words on that one. We both have
Speaker 2: lived experiences around what carrying resentments around looks and feels like.
Speaker 2: And you and I have really decided together that in
Speaker 2: our relationship. How did you say it? You said it
Speaker 2: at the very beginning. One resentment is too many?
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, And I jokingly say with my clients here
Speaker 3: like maybe this okay, exact formula for how many resentments
Speaker 3: you get to carry? Take your age multiplied by two,
Speaker 3: take away your birth here in times by zero. That's
Speaker 3: in how how many resentments are going to have or done? Which,
Speaker 3: of course the answer is zero.
Speaker 2: Right, it's not an of course the answer is zero
Speaker 2: to your math mind. I'm like, well, what is he saying?
Speaker 3: It's like zero is like the correct number, the only
Speaker 3: number of resentments that is correct, is zero. You don't
Speaker 3: want to hold onto any of them, And man, does
Speaker 3: your ego ever want to hold on to them? But
Speaker 3: you can get resentment free.
Speaker 2: So why does our ego want to hold on?
Speaker 3: Because the ego, by definition is is is craze separateness.
Speaker 3: It's always trying to separate us from what we actually are.
Speaker 3: This sort of connected to everything. The ego thrives and
Speaker 3: being separate to survive. So the ego is like, yeah,
Speaker 3: bring on the resentments. That's perfect. I'm gonna feel superior,
Speaker 3: I'm going to feel better, and it's going to keep me.
Speaker 3: It's going to keep us over here. It's like gall
Speaker 3: them with his ring and Lord of the Ring. It's like,
Speaker 3: my precious, I can hold on to.
Speaker 2: These resentments, my precious.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's like that's but that's the ego. The ego
Speaker 3: wants to hold these resentments.
Speaker 2: So I think I would say differently, surprise, surprise. The ego,
Speaker 2: as we've said many times, serves a real purpose in
Speaker 2: terms of our survival. Right, It keeps us safe, doesn't
Speaker 2: keep us thriving, but it keeps us surviving. And the structures, again,
Speaker 2: as we've said many times before, the structures that the
Speaker 2: ego creates are so powerful, and what they're protecting. At
Speaker 2: the heart of what these structures are doing is any
Speaker 2: core wounding that we're carrying, any old story that we
Speaker 2: have on repeat about our own value, about whether or
Speaker 2: not we're lovable, about our worth, our significance, whatever it
Speaker 2: looks like for you, whether we're understood, and the idea
Speaker 2: of resentments keeps us protected from feeling those things because
Speaker 2: as long as our anger is projected outward, then we
Speaker 2: don't have to feel what's at the heart of it.
Speaker 2: And what's at the heart of any resentment that we're
Speaker 2: carrying is that wound, that wound of not feeling validated,
Speaker 2: of not feeling loved, of not mattering, of being abandoned,
Speaker 2: of not being heard. And I think that that's what
Speaker 2: I was trying to say at the very beginning, which
Speaker 2: is a new awareness for me in my recent experiences
Speaker 2: around resentments, and recognizing that I was carrying a number
Speaker 2: of resentments that I wasn't really fully aware of and
Speaker 2: why it was that I was so afraid to actually
Speaker 2: speak those feelings. And what I got through at this
Speaker 2: course of it was this whole idea of it wasn't
Speaker 2: safe or okay for me to feel my feelings, because
Speaker 2: if I shared how I was really feeling, then I
Speaker 2: might be left or abandoned. Yes, and I say that
Speaker 2: really tenderly toward myself and to all of you, because
Speaker 2: I'm in the practice of feeling my feelings in my world,
Speaker 2: I feel my feelings all the time. If you asked
Speaker 2: Chris about whether or not I was good at feeling
Speaker 2: my feelings, he would say, I mean, I dive into
Speaker 2: those places willingly, but there was something in this recent
Speaker 2: experience that really eluded me, and I wouldn't touch it.
Speaker 2: I'd been carrying them for a long time.
Speaker 3: I just wondered, Jack is when we were talking about it,
Speaker 3: you said, you said something really live a couple of
Speaker 3: days ago. In this it is like you might have
Speaker 3: realized you're really good at expressing your feelings, but maybe
Speaker 3: not as good at feeling your feelings and recognizing the
Speaker 3: difference there. Maybe for the first time. I don't know,
Speaker 3: at least in this context.
Speaker 2: That just landed.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely, those are different things.
Speaker 2: Yep, but I think that they're also yes and no,
Speaker 2: So I would say I actually have gotten really good
Speaker 2: at feeling my feelings and expressing them. But there's certain
Speaker 2: places where that's harder for me, certain places that touch
Speaker 2: a deeper wound that maybe I haven't looked at as much,
Speaker 2: where that becomes more challenging.
Speaker 3: And so you're saying linking it back to resentment, it's
Speaker 3: the resentment shows up when it's a situation where you're
Speaker 3: potentially being required to feel those feelings and the things
Speaker 3: that you don't want to feel them on, it gets
Speaker 3: projected out as a result.
Speaker 2: Maybe I think I would say it I had adjusted
Speaker 2: a tiny matter. Yeah, that's okay. I wasn't thinking about
Speaker 2: it that way, but I think if I was, if
Speaker 2: I was going to respond to that, I would say,
Speaker 2: when something touches a part in me that is really
Speaker 2: protected that I'm not yet willing to look at, that
Speaker 2: I haven't done the work to explore that I haven't
Speaker 2: gone into and been able to meet myself with compassion,
Speaker 2: that the knee jerk is to project it back out, yes,
Speaker 2: so that I don't have to look at it. And
Speaker 2: this most recent experience was really eye opening for me
Speaker 2: because I have done so much work on myself around
Speaker 2: self expression and around being able to sit in discomfort,
Speaker 2: and there was this real recognition that there was a
Speaker 2: huge blind spot and an opportunity to do deeper work,
Speaker 2: which for me, you know, maybe I've said this before
Speaker 2: on this podcast, maybe I haven't, but it used to
Speaker 2: be that I held this idea that our inner work
Speaker 2: was like layers of an onion, just keep peeling them away,
Speaker 2: and just when you think you've done, there's another layer.
Speaker 2: And when I did my amd eric training Marshall Wolenski,
Speaker 2: who is a fabulous teacher, he turned that on its
Speaker 2: back and he said, what do you have at the
Speaker 2: end of peeling an onion? And his response was, you
Speaker 2: just have a bunch of tears. What if we looked
Speaker 2: at it differently, What if our inner work was more
Speaker 2: like peeling the la players of an artichoke, and that
Speaker 2: every layer that you peeled got you closer and closer
Speaker 2: to the heart. And for me, the heart is remembering
Speaker 2: who you really are at the center of it all
Speaker 2: when all of these different layers peel away. And my
Speaker 2: experience over time has been that this work of going inside,
Speaker 2: which can sometimes be really tiring, has shifted and it's
Speaker 2: become more of an adventure because at the heart of it,
Speaker 2: what we're really what we're really looking for is a
Speaker 2: remembrance of who we really are, and who we really
Speaker 2: are isn't our resentments or a pain or our stories.
Speaker 2: It's what came before that. It's what came before we
Speaker 2: adopted all of these ideas about what's good and bad
Speaker 2: and right and wrong, and when we get to the
Speaker 2: heart of that, there's no need for carrying those resentments anymore.
Speaker 3: You know, it's interesting that the analogy of the onion
Speaker 3: and the artichoke and the other one, I think that
Speaker 3: really resonates with me, and they're all valid, but it's
Speaker 3: like it's like, there were this this house with hidden
Speaker 3: rooms in it, right, and it's like it's you know,
Speaker 3: it's because sometimes the layer analogy is oh, okay, I
Speaker 3: see that layer and I have to go through this one.
Speaker 3: But it's like, okay, I've looked at all the rooms
Speaker 3: of the house. I'm good to go here, and it's like, okay,
Speaker 3: there's I didn't look in the attic because there it
Speaker 3: was hiding in there, and it just shows up in
Speaker 3: the weirdest times and the weirdest situations, and Okay, now
Speaker 3: I'm gonna go look in the attic and I'm constantly
Speaker 3: discovering new little rooms or hidden passageways in this house
Speaker 3: that show up in this work.
Speaker 2: Which sounds a hell of a lot more like an
Speaker 2: adventure than peeling the layers of an onion.
Speaker 3: Exactly. It's sleuthin now, that's right, and now honestly like
Speaker 3: you know, Moode jumping your head here. But for me, now,
Speaker 3: when a resentment does show up, it's it's more like, oh, okay,
Speaker 3: there's a resentment. Okay, I get to go looking for
Speaker 3: this thing now, like what is behind this thing in me?
Speaker 3: I want to find out? It's like that, it's an
Speaker 3: indication that there's, you know, a trail to this hidden
Speaker 3: part of me. That and there's many hidden parts of me,
Speaker 3: but it's a trail to go look for.
Speaker 2: M So how do we learn, I mean, you and
Speaker 2: I we can model here and we can we can
Speaker 2: talk about it in our home, et cetera, about how
Speaker 2: we work with resentments with each other, which might be
Speaker 2: interesting for our listeners. I'm not sure, but how would
Speaker 2: you guide another person to being able to release their resentments,
Speaker 2: to name them, to work with them, to let them go.
Speaker 3: Before we go there? Why do they want to do this?
Speaker 3: What's what's on the other side of what's resentment free?
Speaker 3: What's what's what's in it for them? Right? It's the
Speaker 3: my bother.
Speaker 2: So it's interesting because I listen to you give our
Speaker 2: introduction and there's something about the word break free in
Speaker 2: that that actually didn't resonate for me. I know, but
Speaker 2: it's curious, which I think I struggled with in the beginning,
Speaker 2: which is really interesting.
Speaker 3: I was trying to be clever.
Speaker 2: You're clever. What lies at the other side is freedom.
Speaker 2: What lies at the other side in that freedom is
Speaker 2: self acceptance, and that self acceptance is that vast See
Speaker 2: that I think that we're really talking about is when
Speaker 2: we can get to a place where we can acknowledge
Speaker 2: the resentment and then what sits underneath it, which is
Speaker 2: often fear, and we can meet ourselves in that And
Speaker 2: except that that too is a part of who I am,
Speaker 2: that I'm in this moment, I'm afraid in this moment,
Speaker 2: I feel misunderstood in this moment, I don't feel important,
Speaker 2: whatever it is, And it can be okay with us
Speaker 2: to feel that. Then there's a freedom that opens up
Speaker 2: that runs so deep and there's nothing like it.
Speaker 3: Yeah, And I would just add to it. Against this
Speaker 3: from my own view of the world is like I
Speaker 3: see resentments. It's just like the bondage of self, and
Speaker 3: it's my resentments. It's when I'm full of resentments, I'm
Speaker 3: so inwardly focused about how everything affects me. It's me, me, me, me, me,
Speaker 3: and my resentments and I'm just trapped in this prison
Speaker 3: of my own thoughts, my own belief system. And to
Speaker 3: be resentment free, it's like how being left the prison,
Speaker 3: I'm now externally focused. I'm not worried about everything affects me.
Speaker 3: I'm looking I'm looking at everything out there and seeing
Speaker 3: how I'm connected I am to it. It's like this freedom,
Speaker 3: as you said, and that's profound, and you know, having
Speaker 3: I would say, like the best of my ability, really
Speaker 3: striving hard to be live a resentment free lifestyle. For
Speaker 3: the last several years, I didn't think you could live
Speaker 3: life like this. I didn't think this level of peace
Speaker 3: and general happiness and bliss was possible, but it is.
Speaker 3: And I think the only the only thing that's changed
Speaker 3: is this lack of resentments. And internally, externally, lots of
Speaker 3: things have changed, but internally, being resentment free is just
Speaker 3: led to a new piece.
Speaker 2: M What you said there brings me right back to
Speaker 2: our intro. Actually, you speak about that those prisons, You
Speaker 2: speak about the prison and I think in many ways,
Speaker 2: the prison bars are the perspective through which we see
Speaker 2: the world, and that when those prison bars are filled
Speaker 2: with resentments, we're looking to our world to prove that
Speaker 2: our resentments are true. When we let go of those
Speaker 2: resentments and the bars fall away, we no longer need
Speaker 2: to prove that truth. We get to see the world
Speaker 2: as it actually is.
Speaker 3: Right. Yeah, and then you find yourself in this place
Speaker 3: of just you're not at least I'm not in conflict
Speaker 3: with anyone or anything. And I said it before this,
Speaker 3: that's one of my favorite lines. You get into argument
Speaker 3: with someone they tell you two plus two is five,
Speaker 3: and just look at them and go, you're absolutely right.
Speaker 3: Enjoy don't prove anything, it doesn't matter. You're just a
Speaker 3: piece of it all.
Speaker 2: Yeah, It's it's quite a place to get to. And
Speaker 2: I think that what I would share before we take
Speaker 2: a break is that I have Chris lives in that
Speaker 2: A lot of the time, I would say to you
Speaker 2: that I have momentary glimpses of what it feels like
Speaker 2: to live there. I I'm still letting all of this
Speaker 2: stuff go. It's not I haven't quite arrived at a
Speaker 2: place of absolute peace and ease. But I do know
Speaker 2: when my system is out of whack. But it's time
Speaker 2: to look at what I'm carrying around with me.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's good. That's a good place to take a break,
Speaker 3: and we'll come back and we'll talk about how do
Speaker 3: we identify them and what do we do about them?
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Speaker 1: Witness the field of potential that arises when you take
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Speaker 2: Visit the Way Dash Healing dot com for more information.
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Speaker 7: Let your dreams and not your doubts drive your decisions. Often,
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Speaker 2: I'm Bethler and we are back.
Speaker 3: And just before the break, we started down that road
Speaker 3: of identify resentments and I took us off tractive. Why
Speaker 3: do we want to be resentment free? But now I'm
Speaker 3: going to bring us right back and I guess the
Speaker 3: genesis of this podcast was actually working through some resentments
Speaker 3: for potential resentments this week. And maybe to answer that question, Jack,
Speaker 3: do you want to take us through something you encountered
Speaker 3: this week in terms of identifying resentment where it came
Speaker 3: from and maybe we can just use that as a
Speaker 3: springboard for a deeper conversation.
Speaker 2: I think me and all my stuff tends to be
Speaker 2: a subject of a lot of these podcasts. Sure so,
Speaker 2: in many ways, just like we were talking about, without
Speaker 2: really fully being aware of it, I was carrying around
Speaker 2: a lot of hurt and upset around a particular friendship
Speaker 2: and recognizing through sharing it with another friend that I
Speaker 2: had been carrying around resentment which was really clothed in
Speaker 2: hurt for going on three years, and that I could
Speaker 2: now name, you know, five seven, eight examples of where
Speaker 2: that had happened over and over and over again and
Speaker 2: with another friend. And what I didn't realize at the
Speaker 2: time was that the lens that I was wearing was
Speaker 2: looking for it now right. I was looking for proof
Speaker 2: to my story, and the story was for me.
Speaker 3: That I didn't matter always that clothed and hurt means yeah, okay.
Speaker 2: So I'm saying, yeah, clothed and hurt is I didn't
Speaker 2: see that I was carrying a resentment what I felt
Speaker 2: was hurt, and and that hurt had become a resentment
Speaker 2: and was getting in the way of me being able
Speaker 2: to feel connected with somebody really important to me. And
Speaker 2: at the heart of it, as my dear friend said
Speaker 2: to me, you need to talk to her. At the
Speaker 2: heart of it, when I sat with it, what I
Speaker 2: realized was what it was touching was what I just said,
Speaker 2: which was the belief, an old belief, old old belief
Speaker 2: that I didn't even really know was there, that I
Speaker 2: don't matter. And the idea of speaking that out loud
Speaker 2: was far too much from my nervous system to handle,
Speaker 2: because what that would expose was a deep insecurity that'
Speaker 2: sat inside of me of not being important or of
Speaker 2: not mattering to somebody. And so rather than share it,
Speaker 2: I just continued to build this energy in my body
Speaker 2: that would ultimately have me completely disconnect from this friend,
Speaker 2: which would protect me from feeling the hurt.
Speaker 3: Because the fears you say something and they say, well,
Speaker 3: you're not important.
Speaker 2: No, I think it's deeper than that. Actually, I think
Speaker 2: what it is is to admit to myself that the
Speaker 2: feeling is that I don't matter is very raw. It
Speaker 2: has me touching into a place that I don't even
Speaker 2: really want to look at right, And so if I
Speaker 2: can continue to get proof from this person that I
Speaker 2: don't matter, I can actually step away. I can push
Speaker 2: her away enough and disconnect from her, and in doing so,
Speaker 2: I don't actually have to feel anything. She was bad
Speaker 2: and I'm safe to name. It means that I actually
Speaker 2: have to not only reveal to myself that I don't
Speaker 2: matter is a conversation playing in the background, but I
Speaker 2: also have to tell her that what I've experienced is
Speaker 2: making me feel like I don't matter, and I have
Speaker 2: to unveil and insecurity in the process. And it was
Speaker 2: really profound for me because I did end up talking
Speaker 2: to her and I was able to share everything that
Speaker 2: I was feeling from a place of gentleness and kindness,
Speaker 2: and I was blown away because not only did she
Speaker 2: hear me, she didn't go into defense, she didn't go
Speaker 2: into attack, she didn't do all of the things that
Speaker 2: we would naturally do to protect ourselves. She heard me
Speaker 2: and she actually validated me, which was, you have every
Speaker 2: reason to feel that way. Let me sit with it
Speaker 2: so I can come back to you with an equally
Speaker 2: thoughtful response. And when she did, what she came forward
Speaker 2: with were all of her insecurities and why she had
Speaker 2: pushed me away so that she didn't have to feel them,
Speaker 2: and what ensued was a beautiful repair, but it doesn't always.
Speaker 3: Look like that. But just that process was from you know,
Speaker 3: the these resentments protecting both of you, pushing and keeping
Speaker 3: more and more separate, and it was the step forward
Speaker 3: into like kind of unwind this and all of a sudden,
Speaker 3: it's this bonding agent that brings you closer, will probably
Speaker 3: bring you closer than ever.
Speaker 2: I don't doubt that for a second. And actually I
Speaker 2: think a friendship that I was close to walking away
Speaker 2: from is a friendship that will walk with me through
Speaker 2: the rest of my life because of that experience and
Speaker 2: with deep gratitude for the other friend who called me
Speaker 2: on it. Right, But resentments don't always work that way.
Speaker 2: Sharing how you feel doesn't always translate into being heard
Speaker 2: and received and tapping into somebody else's vulnerability. Often it
Speaker 2: taps into somebody's own defense mechanisms and survival mechanisms, and
Speaker 2: it doesn't feel so clean.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, and that's that's my experience. We're talking
Speaker 3: about this example for you because it was recent, but
Speaker 3: you know, my own past I had, like I had
Speaker 3: a five page list of resentments. I resented everything and everyone,
Speaker 3: and that was when I saw the absurdity instead of
Speaker 3: going through this process, I want to do something about
Speaker 3: these things. I could see what they were doing to
Speaker 3: my soul, I could see if they're doing to my
Speaker 3: piece and working through them one by one, getting into action,
Speaker 3: and the majority of them worked out in a way
Speaker 3: that you know, improved the relationship. But in many instances
Speaker 3: it was it was not was not received while on
Speaker 3: the other side, or triggered something in the other person,
Speaker 3: and we went our own ways. But the key for
Speaker 3: me it was always the same. Internally, I dropped the rock. Internally,
Speaker 3: I stopped drinking the proison. Internally I found the freedom.
Speaker 3: And that's this process is about. And it's really I
Speaker 3: find it really critical not to have any expectations around
Speaker 3: what happens when we go to let go of our resentments.
Speaker 3: It may not be reciprocated. That's okay, that's not the point.
Speaker 3: The point is we need to stop drinking. I need
Speaker 3: to stop drinking poison because it's killing me. I can't.
Speaker 3: What the other person does with it is totally out
Speaker 3: of my control. So this moving into trying to release
Speaker 3: and let go of my resentment, moving into making an amends,
Speaker 3: seeing where I was responsible, seeing my Pardoner, this is
Speaker 3: all for me. Now it might benefit the other person,
Speaker 3: but ultimately it's a selfish act for the capitalists or
Speaker 3: I'm prioritizing my authentic self by letting these things go.
Speaker 2: Can you name an example when you shared a resentment
Speaker 2: that wasn't received well and how it left you feeling
Speaker 2: like an actual example?
Speaker 3: Yeah, as part of a you know, I call it
Speaker 3: the amend's process of going through and identifying, you know,
Speaker 3: my pro identifying where the resentments are. Okay, I'm going
Speaker 3: to deal with them. What I'm going to do is
Speaker 3: I'm going to approach the people that I've had a
Speaker 3: resentment to or that maybe I've even harm, But usually
Speaker 3: if I've harmed them because there's been a resentment, there's
Speaker 3: this relationship to it, and I'm going to own my pardon.
Speaker 3: I'm going to apologize and try to make amends and
Speaker 3: see if I can repair repair the harm I've caused
Speaker 3: within the relationship, even if it's just my resentment, even
Speaker 3: if it's internally you know nothing about it. And right
Speaker 3: at the beginning, I would say the beginning of this journey,
Speaker 3: the first ones I did were to probably the three
Speaker 3: men that were the closest in my life that had
Speaker 3: really been there trying to help me, you know, deal
Speaker 3: through like this chaotic period in my life of addiction
Speaker 3: where I was, you know, I was definitely not my best,
Speaker 3: to say the least, and I put them through a lot.
Speaker 3: I put them through a lot, and they were sort
Speaker 3: of right up there to the last day. And several
Speaker 3: months later, I reached out to make an amends, expecting,
Speaker 3: you know what, I what I've been led to believe
Speaker 3: is going to be this repair of the relationship. Everyone's
Speaker 3: gonna be great again. And it was across the board,
Speaker 3: that's great, good luck, but pretty much never want to
Speaker 3: see again. You know, we don't want you. I don't
Speaker 3: we don't want you in our lives. And it was
Speaker 3: really hard to take at the time momentarily, but then
Speaker 3: almost instantaneally, I felt the freedom that came with that
Speaker 3: I had been honest, I'd owned my part, I'd done
Speaker 3: my best. I tried to clear the records of my past,
Speaker 3: and what other people do with that's out of my control.
Speaker 3: But that element of freedom came in. So my very
Speaker 3: first experience with this were not how it was supposed
Speaker 3: to go, but it was exactly how it was supposed
Speaker 3: to go for me.
Speaker 2: So I'm a little bit confused because we're talking about
Speaker 2: resentments and what you just described was a recognition of
Speaker 2: where you were carrying resentments and then moving into a
Speaker 2: process of amends. And that feels like it feels like
Speaker 2: I understand your process and where you went. But we're
Speaker 2: not talking about amends right now. We're talking about recognizing
Speaker 2: our resentments, right, So can I take you back again
Speaker 2: to that place of when you recognized your resentments towards
Speaker 2: these people? What did you recognize in yourself?
Speaker 3: Oh, I recognized how I had been playing the victim,
Speaker 3: how I've been I recognized how I was resenting them
Speaker 3: for not doing more for me, not trying to rescue me,
Speaker 3: not being on my side, recognizing all these expectations I'd
Speaker 3: been putting on them.
Speaker 2: Okay, but I want to peel it back some more
Speaker 2: because you keep going into the place of where you're
Speaker 2: going to take personal responsibility, and I want to step
Speaker 2: back to the place of actually feeling into the resentment
Speaker 2: and naming it, because you're taking us two steps forward. Right, So,
Speaker 2: when you recognize in your body that or in your mind,
Speaker 2: in my body, in your mind, Okay, when you recognize
Speaker 2: that you were carrying all of these different resentments towards
Speaker 2: these guys, what did you do with those feelings before
Speaker 2: you took personal responsibility to go and look for your
Speaker 2: role in it, before you went and recognized with awareness
Speaker 2: that you were playing the victim, before you went into
Speaker 2: making an amends with them, Because that's like step four
Speaker 2: of this process. We're just talking about how breaking free
Speaker 2: resentments is an opening to freedom. When you recognize that
Speaker 2: you were carrying these resentments, what did you recognize about yourself.
Speaker 3: That I was holding anger and expectations and in a
Speaker 3: sense of injustice relative to these other people who I
Speaker 3: then recognize we're trying to do their best in a
Speaker 3: tough situation.
Speaker 2: You're back there again. So interesting, said, I don't think
Speaker 2: you can understand your question. Your capacity, through all of
Speaker 2: the work that you've done to look at yourself being
Speaker 2: personally responsible for whatever it is that you're carrying is profound. Yes,
Speaker 2: but again it feels like that's four steps ahead of
Speaker 2: just talking about the resentment itself.
Speaker 3: Tell me what you give me an example of what
Speaker 3: I should say, because I'm not sure I understand. I
Speaker 3: don't want you to say anything, I don't think I
Speaker 3: understand the question.
Speaker 2: Well, you got it. There was I'm feeling, I feel
Speaker 2: an injustice, I feel expectations that they were meant to
Speaker 2: meet me in ways that they didn't, which speaks to
Speaker 2: the needs that you had underneath there, and it's recognizing
Speaker 2: what those needs are ultimately right.
Speaker 3: So yeah, yeah, I understand, I understand now. Yeah, so
Speaker 3: going into a deep seated I think for my feeling
Speaker 3: that I'm not enough, I'm not worthy of love, I'm
Speaker 3: not important, I'm not safe. These are these are this
Speaker 3: is this is the waters that these all came out of,
Speaker 3: and so they weren't meeting my needs and of safety
Speaker 3: and love and enoughness and worthiness, and that's what was
Speaker 3: getting resolved. So taking responsibility for that's where it came from.
Speaker 2: And so thank you.
Speaker 3: I understand now.
Speaker 2: I think it was really important to get there, because
Speaker 2: the freedom does come from making the amends and feeling
Speaker 2: either like your apology has been received or not received.
Speaker 2: The freedom comes from your capacity to be able to
Speaker 2: actually recognize the needs that are sitting underneath the actual
Speaker 2: resentment and recognizing that they're not needs that anybody else
Speaker 2: can meet.
Speaker 3: I think it's both I hear what you're saying. I
Speaker 3: think it's both. You can you could recognize all those
Speaker 3: things and take no action, and I think you'll be
Speaker 3: trapped in it. And you can take action and not
Speaker 3: recognize those things, and you may still be trapped in it.
Speaker 3: It's this combination, and I'm glad we're going here. It's
Speaker 3: a combination of recognizing what is driving this within me,
Speaker 3: what are the fears, what are the beliefs, what are
Speaker 3: my actions? Simultaneously with okay, I want to take action
Speaker 3: to restore it, because resentment is a facully, a place
Speaker 3: of inaction you and to do it. It's if you're
Speaker 3: not asking the question, oh there's a resentment, what do
Speaker 3: I do to fix it? You? I have a resentment.
Speaker 3: I'm going to hold onto it because it empowers me.
Speaker 3: So it's the recognizing it, understanding where it came from,
Speaker 3: and then moving into action to resolve it.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, that was worth it. Now you get to see
Speaker 2: how we work through tough stuff.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: I just I think that in our world too often
Speaker 2: we are willing to move. I think it's easier to
Speaker 2: move into action, hm to jump out of discomfort, to
Speaker 2: move into action to make an amends to make an apology,
Speaker 2: to do whatever it is. But the piece of work
Speaker 2: that has to happen first is that place of actually
Speaker 2: really tapping into with deep awareness what's driving this in me.
Speaker 2: Because when I can do that, then I can set
Speaker 2: all of me free by taking action afterwards.
Speaker 3: And you know, it's interesting again, I'm gonna my experience
Speaker 3: is a little bit different because the people I work
Speaker 3: with is like, I find actually there's less resistance to
Speaker 3: figuring that part out, and then it comes Okay, now
Speaker 3: it's time to make demands. They're like, Nope, I'm justified
Speaker 3: in that resentment or I'm justified in that anger, even
Speaker 3: though I know where it's coming from. I'm not going
Speaker 3: to take that step, and they'll have done all this
Speaker 3: work and they'll trap themselves because they won't cross that
Speaker 3: barrier of getting into action. It's too much.
Speaker 2: So what's in the way of them taking that step.
Speaker 3: Their pride for the most part, but the ego. But
Speaker 3: they mean their their ego structure of safety.
Speaker 2: Well, if I'm willing to look at all of my
Speaker 2: shit in private or with a therapist, a coach, a
Speaker 2: counselor a sponsor or whatever it is, okay, I'm willing
Speaker 2: to do that work, and I can look myself square
Speaker 2: in the mirror and see my pretty spots and all
Speaker 2: my ugly spots. That's really deep work. But then to
Speaker 2: go and step into showing off all those ugly spots
Speaker 2: to the rest of the world that I've protected myself
Speaker 2: from ever experiencing it, most of whom would probably turn
Speaker 2: on me if they saw it, especially when I'm thinking
Speaker 2: about some of your clients and some of the damage
Speaker 2: that they've created. Of course they're going to want to
Speaker 2: of course they're going to want to cross their arms
Speaker 2: like you said and say nope. But both are required,
Speaker 2: aren't they in order?
Speaker 3: And I think there's another step in there too. There's
Speaker 3: the response. But I find it's less about the response
Speaker 3: if I'm I'm sitting with it right now, I'm just
Speaker 3: formling this. It's more than not ready to let go
Speaker 3: of it. I've seen it all, I have it all,
Speaker 3: but I've identified with it. I don't think I'm ready
Speaker 3: to give this up, like this is all I've known
Speaker 3: for my entire life, and what you're on this process
Speaker 3: of going and letting it go of it all through
Speaker 3: this process, but bends and letting go of my resentments.
Speaker 3: You're asking me to let go of my identity, and
Speaker 3: my identity is kept me safe. So I think it's
Speaker 3: less to do with how the other person responds, and
Speaker 3: it's some to do with that, but it's more about
Speaker 3: who am I without these My resentments are my identity.
Speaker 3: If I let them all go, then I don't know
Speaker 3: who I am anymore.
Speaker 2: I think that's absolutely true, And thank you for thanks
Speaker 2: for clarifying that, because that comes back to what we
Speaker 2: said at the beginning about our egostructures. Right, they will
Speaker 2: work so hard to keep us safe because our survival
Speaker 2: depends on it in some part of our psyche. That
Speaker 2: to let that go means we have no more signposts,
Speaker 2: we have no more sense of who we are, and
Speaker 2: we are we are no, we are nobody, right, Yeah,
Speaker 2: We've all of a sudden become nobody, which ultimately is
Speaker 2: the biggest freedom.
Speaker 3: Yeah. And I think that's why so many people can
Speaker 3: do so much psychological work and learn all about themselves,
Speaker 3: but then hang on to that structured identity because it's
Speaker 3: just a big step that many people, unless are forced
Speaker 3: to that wall, aren't really ready to let go of.
Speaker 2: So you did that, Yeah, in a really big way,
Speaker 2: and you do that every day in a really big way.
Speaker 2: What makes it different for you now?
Speaker 3: I mean I was forced to the wall. That's the
Speaker 3: I think for me, that's the only thing I'd come
Speaker 3: up with for my situation. And I only know my
Speaker 3: own experience. Like I got to that place was whatever
Speaker 3: my identity was was not working anymore, and it was
Speaker 3: just going to lead me to it's going to it
Speaker 3: was just going to lead me to annihilation. So I
Speaker 3: was motivated with this gift of desperation to fully change it.
Speaker 3: And just by the grace of God, I fully bought
Speaker 3: into what was presented to me as a way out
Speaker 3: of it. And this was part of it.
Speaker 2: And so for you sitting on the other side of that,
Speaker 2: being able to experience what freedom feels like in your body,
Speaker 2: resentment free, what would you share with our audience in
Speaker 2: terms of the gifts of that place that might make
Speaker 2: one person want to look a little deeper and step
Speaker 2: into a little more courage to be able to make
Speaker 2: this move in their life.
Speaker 3: Just did It'd say, it's like it's a it's a
Speaker 3: newfound freedom, spaciousness and expansiveness that you know, we use
Speaker 3: this word all the time here. It's somewhat ineffable unless
Speaker 3: you've experienced it, but it's like a promise that it's there.
Speaker 3: It's like, there's this, it's this new way of seeing
Speaker 3: the world, a new way of living when you when
Speaker 3: you cross this boundary of letting go of the ego
Speaker 3: and the identity and particularly the resentments, which is the
Speaker 3: outcome of it, and just thinking through this like it
Speaker 3: just sounds like that, it can sound like such a
Speaker 3: huge step. And I think if I think about like
Speaker 3: a process about working through resentments on a a gentler
Speaker 3: and one off scale, is bringing two things to it.
Speaker 3: The first one is radical empathy. When you're specially when
Speaker 3: you're thinking about another person, it's like we're very much
Speaker 3: always thinking about our own perspective of it. And empathy
Speaker 3: is can I put myself in the other person's shoes,
Speaker 3: radically put themselves in the shoes? How do they see
Speaker 3: this situation and how do they relate to what's going on?
Speaker 3: That will be the first step to breaking it down.
Speaker 3: And the other one this humility, to just recognizing my
Speaker 3: understanding of the situation is so small, I don't know anything.
Speaker 3: And if I can bring humility and empathy to this
Speaker 3: type of situation, it'll help dissolve it.
Speaker 2: So I do have one last question, and I think
Speaker 2: that was beautifully spoken, But I have one question about
Speaker 2: radical empathy. How do we know when we are tapping
Speaker 2: into how somebody else feels that we're not making an assumption.
Speaker 3: We're fully making an assumption. We're just trying and we're
Speaker 3: trying our best, is all I can say. And like
Speaker 3: you know again, it's like it's it's all in this continuum.
Speaker 3: Like how how honest am I being with myself? How
Speaker 3: and how honest am I being? If I can be
Speaker 3: as honest with myself as I can, and can I
Speaker 3: honestly try to put myself in that person's shoes that
Speaker 3: I have resentment they're acting in a certain way that's
Speaker 3: upsetting me. Can I understand why they be acting that way?
Speaker 3: What may be happening internally them? What I know? I
Speaker 3: have a whole bunch of fears and limiting beliefs. Yes
Speaker 3: they probably have some too. I wonder what there is
Speaker 3: are I wonder where there's a situation. I wonder where
Speaker 3: the situation is doing to their fears in limiting least
Speaker 3: like it's doing to mind And as soon as we
Speaker 3: start doing that, we stop othering them, we stopped humanizing them,
Speaker 3: and we start becoming them, and the separation goes and
Speaker 3: the oneness comes in. And that's the first big step
Speaker 3: in all this.
Speaker 2: So it sounds like this whole process leads us into
Speaker 2: a process of into a space of radical acceptance, both
Speaker 2: of ourselves and of another person.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and then from that, from that place's movem into
Speaker 3: making and amends. Is like, I'm not not worried of
Speaker 3: I'm just I'm just seeing you know.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Yeah, thank you.
Speaker 3: Well that's your time already.
Speaker 2: Well, that's a great conversation.
Speaker 3: We'll see you next time.
Speaker 2: You've been listening to me Chris and Me Jacqueline on
Speaker 2: break Free and Trust are Redesigned for Living.
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