WEBVTT 1 00:00:05.120 --> 00:00:08.000 Oh folks, it show die. 2 00:00:08.679 --> 00:00:10.560 People say good money to see this movie. 3 00:00:10.919 --> 00:00:13.560 When they go out to a theater, they want clothed sodas, 4 00:00:13.880 --> 00:00:17.199 pop popcorn in no monsters in the protection booth. 5 00:00:17.359 --> 00:00:19.199 Everyone pretend podcasting isn't boring. 6 00:00:20.239 --> 00:00:20.879 Got it off. 7 00:00:45.359 --> 00:00:48.439 By the time I was sixteen years old, I was 8 00:00:48.520 --> 00:00:51.640 notorious as a kid with a terrific knack for theft. 9 00:00:53.200 --> 00:00:56.560 Foster homes would no longer take me, and I was 10 00:00:56.600 --> 00:01:03.119 sent to the Boys Reformatory of Batans. There, in the 11 00:01:03.119 --> 00:01:07.680 counterfeit world of men among men, I found my true family. 12 00:01:12.239 --> 00:01:12.760 At Batten. 13 00:01:12.879 --> 00:01:17.200 I was astounded by the discovery that each male had 14 00:01:17.239 --> 00:01:20.519 a male of his own, and that the world of 15 00:01:20.640 --> 00:01:25.519 force and manly beauty loved in that way within itself 16 00:01:27.000 --> 00:01:44.920 from link to link. It was from then on, when 17 00:01:44.959 --> 00:01:49.439 they merged in shadow, that each group offered me a puzzle. 18 00:01:52.319 --> 00:01:58.519 The stiff, silent males possessed the violence of love, and 19 00:01:58.640 --> 00:02:10.960 my life's study would be to find. Sixteen years had 20 00:02:11.000 --> 00:02:15.759 passed when the maximum security prison of Fontana brought me 21 00:02:15.840 --> 00:02:17.000 face to face. 22 00:02:17.159 --> 00:02:18.120 With my deliverance. 23 00:02:20.639 --> 00:02:26.199 Jack bowman age twenty eight, one hundred and seventy five 24 00:02:26.280 --> 00:02:32.800 pounds seventy five inches, formerly a captive of Batan. 25 00:02:36.599 --> 00:02:38.800 Welcome to the Projection booth. I'm your host, Mike White. 26 00:02:38.840 --> 00:02:41.120 Joined me once again is Ms Rain Alexander. 27 00:02:41.520 --> 00:02:43.080 Hi, everybody happy to be here. 28 00:02:43.759 --> 00:02:45.840 Also back in the booth is mister Kyler Faye. 29 00:02:46.199 --> 00:02:46.960 Hi, everybody. 30 00:02:47.719 --> 00:02:50.439 We are kicking off twenty twenty five and kicking off 31 00:02:50.439 --> 00:02:54.680 a month of Patreon request with one from Kyler Fay himself. Poison, 32 00:02:55.280 --> 00:02:59.039 this first feature film from director Todd Haynes nineteen ninety 33 00:02:59.039 --> 00:03:02.599 one's Poison is I'm prized to have a trio of stories, Hero, 34 00:03:03.120 --> 00:03:06.199 Horror and Homo and we'll be talking about these three 35 00:03:06.280 --> 00:03:09.719 diverse interweave tales and ruining them as we go along. 36 00:03:09.719 --> 00:03:11.719 So if you don't want anything, run please just turn 37 00:03:11.759 --> 00:03:14.159 off the podcast and come back after you've seen Poison. 38 00:03:14.520 --> 00:03:17.759 We will still be here. So, Kyler, I'm very curious 39 00:03:17.840 --> 00:03:20.479 why did you choose Poison as your Patreon pick and 40 00:03:20.520 --> 00:03:21.879 when did you first see it? 41 00:03:21.879 --> 00:03:25.919 It really brings back some memories and I hadn't watched 42 00:03:25.960 --> 00:03:28.639 the film again. It's been several years since I had 43 00:03:28.680 --> 00:03:31.199 gone back to it. I saw it when it was 44 00:03:31.280 --> 00:03:36.240 brand new and I was a young kid abroad in 45 00:03:36.400 --> 00:03:41.919 England as a student. Still a teenager, and it was 46 00:03:41.960 --> 00:03:44.960 released in the UK in October of ninety one. 47 00:03:45.639 --> 00:03:48.280 I saw two movies almost back to back. 48 00:03:48.360 --> 00:03:52.400 One was Derek Jarman's Edward, the second which was dazzling 49 00:03:52.439 --> 00:03:55.439 and wonderful, and then the second one I saw was Poison, 50 00:03:55.560 --> 00:03:58.759 which just really punched me in the face in like 51 00:03:58.800 --> 00:04:02.439 a good way. I could hardly believe it. I had 52 00:04:02.439 --> 00:04:06.039 never seen anything like it. Granted I was a very 53 00:04:06.159 --> 00:04:09.159 unsophisticated film watcher at that time. 54 00:04:09.439 --> 00:04:10.960 I was just a kid. I hadn't seen a lot 55 00:04:10.960 --> 00:04:11.439 of stuff. 56 00:04:11.759 --> 00:04:14.240 But I had not seen anything put together like that, 57 00:04:14.400 --> 00:04:17.360 anything that looked like it, and I had seen nothing. 58 00:04:17.519 --> 00:04:20.839 Really was such a frank depiction of gay intimacy and 59 00:04:20.879 --> 00:04:23.839 it like ever honestly, I hadn't even seen any porn 60 00:04:23.959 --> 00:04:26.279 yet really at that point, because the Internet was not 61 00:04:26.360 --> 00:04:28.519 then what it is now, so it wasn't accessible. You 62 00:04:28.600 --> 00:04:31.160 used to have to spend one hundred bucks on a 63 00:04:31.279 --> 00:04:35.800 tape or something back in nineteen nineties dollars. But it 64 00:04:36.040 --> 00:04:41.360 just absolutely amazed me and just stuck with me all 65 00:04:41.439 --> 00:04:45.079 those years, and then periodically over the years when I 66 00:04:45.079 --> 00:04:48.120 would try to show it to somebody else and it 67 00:04:48.160 --> 00:04:51.040 wasn't always that successful. I couldn't really get anybody else 68 00:04:51.120 --> 00:04:53.680 to quite share my enthusiasm. So it's fun to talk 69 00:04:53.720 --> 00:04:55.519 to a couple of people who actually want to discuss 70 00:04:55.560 --> 00:04:57.720 it and rain how about yourself? 71 00:04:58.560 --> 00:05:02.720 So this came out just as I was leaving college. Yeah, 72 00:05:02.720 --> 00:05:06.720 I graduated nineteen ninety one, and I had just really 73 00:05:06.800 --> 00:05:11.000 come into myself as like this really angry, radical, queer, 74 00:05:11.720 --> 00:05:15.680 feminist person. This wasn't the first time I rewatched it recently. 75 00:05:15.759 --> 00:05:19.720 I rewatched this every so often. But it really strikes 76 00:05:19.800 --> 00:05:25.000 me how it seems so impossible to explain what it 77 00:05:25.079 --> 00:05:29.480 was like before this film, the world before this film. 78 00:05:29.639 --> 00:05:31.720 And it's not just that this film changed the world, 79 00:05:31.920 --> 00:05:35.279 because it did, but also it didn't, as we're as 80 00:05:35.519 --> 00:05:39.000 going to talk about, I think, but there was just 81 00:05:39.040 --> 00:05:43.439 nothing at all like this before. We were still living 82 00:05:43.439 --> 00:05:46.399 in a world where it was very fraught to even 83 00:05:46.480 --> 00:05:52.079 show two people of the same sex kissing on television 84 00:05:52.199 --> 00:05:57.399 or even in movies, like it was still so difficult 85 00:05:57.720 --> 00:06:00.680 to even show something like that. I was coming out 86 00:06:01.079 --> 00:06:03.199 in the early nineties, and I was not just coming 87 00:06:03.240 --> 00:06:05.160 out as queer, I was coming out as trans, which 88 00:06:05.199 --> 00:06:07.800 was not even an easy thing to do within the 89 00:06:08.000 --> 00:06:14.439 queer community. So to see this when it hit was 90 00:06:15.160 --> 00:06:17.680 just such a blow. Was like it showed me so 91 00:06:17.839 --> 00:06:21.360 much possibility. When I had knewn a little bit more 92 00:06:21.560 --> 00:06:25.680 about Todd Haynes through reputation by the time this came out, 93 00:06:25.839 --> 00:06:29.240 this was a time when I still couldn't really easily 94 00:06:29.399 --> 00:06:33.279 see Superstar. So when this came out, I still had 95 00:06:33.279 --> 00:06:36.879 not seen Superstar right that had not been made accessible 96 00:06:36.959 --> 00:06:40.680 to me. This big My first Todd Haynes was really 97 00:06:40.800 --> 00:06:44.199 just you know, it opened my world and knew in 98 00:06:44.240 --> 00:06:46.639 ways that like I'm still enjoying now. 99 00:06:47.480 --> 00:06:50.399 Yeah, this was probably my first thought Haines as well. 100 00:06:50.839 --> 00:06:54.120 I eventually caught up with Superstar The Karen Carpent dis Story. 101 00:06:54.160 --> 00:06:57.000 I think I ordered it from video search in Miami, 102 00:06:57.639 --> 00:07:01.680 maybe ninety five, ninety six, something like that, and this 103 00:07:01.759 --> 00:07:04.560 one I do remember picking up at the video store. 104 00:07:05.519 --> 00:07:09.000 Surprisingly enough, it was actually stocked at Blockbuster. And I 105 00:07:09.040 --> 00:07:12.639 saw this probably ninety three, ninety four something like that, 106 00:07:13.160 --> 00:07:15.399 probably watched it while I was in college, and it 107 00:07:15.639 --> 00:07:20.279 just blew me away. Just absolutely loved it. The way 108 00:07:20.360 --> 00:07:22.959 that the stories are told, the way that their inner 109 00:07:23.040 --> 00:07:26.560 cut was something very radical for me. I had never 110 00:07:26.600 --> 00:07:30.360 seen anything like that before. The mixed mediums I thought 111 00:07:30.439 --> 00:07:34.000 was fantastic. The way that you know the Jennet section, 112 00:07:34.240 --> 00:07:38.240 I believe that's the homo section. Just how gorgeous that looks, 113 00:07:38.879 --> 00:07:43.720 the wonderfulness of the horror section, and just the playing 114 00:07:43.800 --> 00:07:47.319 up of the cheese factor with that, the science fiction 115 00:07:47.639 --> 00:07:51.920 culty cheapness of it was wonderful. And then the use 116 00:07:51.959 --> 00:07:56.360 of the documentary style footage for the hero section where 117 00:07:57.439 --> 00:08:00.519 you don't know exactly what's going on, and I love 118 00:08:00.560 --> 00:08:03.600 that this whole movie is just set up in such 119 00:08:03.639 --> 00:08:05.800 a way that you don't know what's going to happen 120 00:08:06.040 --> 00:08:09.680 to any of these stories. And they are really teasing 121 00:08:09.720 --> 00:08:12.519 you with the editing because you might start to get 122 00:08:12.560 --> 00:08:14.879 invested in one story and that moves on to the 123 00:08:14.920 --> 00:08:17.839 next story, and then it will come back to that story. 124 00:08:17.879 --> 00:08:20.720 And I love that the editing style is not just 125 00:08:21.360 --> 00:08:24.839 one story, two story, three story. We vary that because 126 00:08:24.879 --> 00:08:26.879 otherwise it would start to feel like a waltz with 127 00:08:26.920 --> 00:08:29.480 that one two three one two three one two three rhythm. 128 00:08:29.480 --> 00:08:32.360 And I'm just like, I love that we go back 129 00:08:32.399 --> 00:08:36.519 and forth between the stories as needed, and we might 130 00:08:36.559 --> 00:08:39.600 get hero and horror going back and forth, and then 131 00:08:39.639 --> 00:08:41.960 we might slip into Homo in there, and then we 132 00:08:42.039 --> 00:08:44.320 might go Homo to Hero for a few and then 133 00:08:44.720 --> 00:08:48.120 go back into the horror section. I'm just like, this 134 00:08:48.399 --> 00:08:52.919 is fantastic. But I do before we even start to 135 00:08:52.960 --> 00:08:54.799 talk about the movie, I do want to talk about 136 00:08:54.879 --> 00:08:57.879 the era that this was made in nineteen ninety one. 137 00:08:57.960 --> 00:08:59.720 You know, Rain, You're talking about how you're just coming 138 00:08:59.759 --> 00:09:03.240 out as queer and as trans at the time. To 139 00:09:03.320 --> 00:09:07.399 set this in the proper historical context, I mean, this 140 00:09:07.480 --> 00:09:13.559 is pre Ellen coming out. It's still a horrible mark 141 00:09:13.639 --> 00:09:16.159 on your career. You might end your career if you 142 00:09:16.200 --> 00:09:19.039 come out as gay or if people like catch you 143 00:09:19.159 --> 00:09:22.679 being gay all. And it's just like this is right 144 00:09:22.720 --> 00:09:26.919 around the time of independent film really starting to make 145 00:09:26.960 --> 00:09:31.759 a mark. Like we're one year before Reservoir Dogs. This 146 00:09:31.840 --> 00:09:34.919 is like sex liize and video tape time. So this 147 00:09:34.960 --> 00:09:37.879 is like the perfect time for this movie to come out, 148 00:09:38.320 --> 00:09:40.799 and this is the time when we're starting to actually 149 00:09:40.840 --> 00:09:43.559 see of course, there have been gay filmmakers since film 150 00:09:43.600 --> 00:09:48.399 has been made, but very open challenging the status quo 151 00:09:48.600 --> 00:09:52.440 gay filmmakers. It's starting to happen right now. I mean, 152 00:09:52.519 --> 00:09:55.360 of course, yes we have John Waters and things, but 153 00:09:55.919 --> 00:10:00.639 like this with this movie, with Swoon, with Gregor Rakis films. 154 00:10:00.919 --> 00:10:03.960 I mean, this feels like a real golden age of 155 00:10:04.039 --> 00:10:06.279 queer cinema is starting right now. 156 00:10:07.120 --> 00:10:10.840 Yeah, and I think a real repudiation of the way 157 00:10:10.960 --> 00:10:13.360 stories had been told. I mean, this is put out 158 00:10:13.399 --> 00:10:16.480 as a foundational film for new queer cinema, and that's 159 00:10:16.480 --> 00:10:20.480 a great label. This is a queer film. I hate 160 00:10:20.519 --> 00:10:22.799 to fall back on what feels like an academic kind 161 00:10:22.799 --> 00:10:26.120 of jargon at this point in history, but it really 162 00:10:26.120 --> 00:10:30.679 did shift the way storytelling was done. There's an interview 163 00:10:30.720 --> 00:10:33.679 that I saw with Todd Haynes. Wrory says, you look 164 00:10:33.720 --> 00:10:36.559 at these other films that are arguably gay stories that 165 00:10:36.600 --> 00:10:39.759 are in the history of cinema, but they're told through 166 00:10:39.799 --> 00:10:43.080 a straight lens. They're straight stories. Cruising is a straight story, 167 00:10:43.120 --> 00:10:46.919 he says, This is not this is queer. This is explicit, 168 00:10:47.600 --> 00:10:50.559 and that's why it was so challenging politically. 169 00:10:50.759 --> 00:10:54.919 It relates to the point when a lot of people 170 00:10:55.320 --> 00:10:59.759 had it with the failure of society to deal with 171 00:10:59.759 --> 00:11:04.919 as also, right, you said, so the still enrages me 172 00:11:05.000 --> 00:11:08.480 when I think about horrible like the Reagan government was 173 00:11:08.840 --> 00:11:11.120 during that period, and then you had groups like act 174 00:11:11.200 --> 00:11:14.759 Up formed outrage in the UK, and a lot of 175 00:11:14.799 --> 00:11:18.759 people were like, fuck this, We're not going to disappear 176 00:11:19.320 --> 00:11:22.200 and we're not going to just be defined by this, 177 00:11:22.399 --> 00:11:26.039 and we're going to do something. And these kinds of 178 00:11:26.120 --> 00:11:29.759 films were I think these filmmakers saying, yeah, we're not 179 00:11:29.799 --> 00:11:33.000 going to just clean or act up and be real 180 00:11:33.080 --> 00:11:37.039 acceptable to you because you're associating us with this disease. 181 00:11:37.360 --> 00:11:40.840 And it really did. It really changed some things. 182 00:11:41.240 --> 00:11:42.919 A lot of people now don't I don't know if 183 00:11:42.960 --> 00:11:48.080 everybody really appreciates just how wildly vicious homophobia was in 184 00:11:48.120 --> 00:11:50.840 those days too, because this was that the like that 185 00:11:50.960 --> 00:11:53.240 nineteen ninety ninety one ninety two, you're right at the 186 00:11:53.919 --> 00:11:57.200 worst part of the AIDS epidemic when that we did 187 00:11:57.200 --> 00:12:01.279 not have very good drugs yet the treatments were not 188 00:12:01.639 --> 00:12:04.000 very good yet a lot of people were still dying, 189 00:12:04.639 --> 00:12:07.399 and the attitude of a lot of society was like, yeah, 190 00:12:07.799 --> 00:12:08.919 you probably deserve. 191 00:12:08.639 --> 00:12:09.679 It, you have it coming. 192 00:12:10.440 --> 00:12:14.519 It was so awful and a lot of younger queer 193 00:12:14.559 --> 00:12:19.320 people now, I think of particularly young like gen Z 194 00:12:19.600 --> 00:12:23.759 gay men now in particular, have no concept a lot 195 00:12:23.759 --> 00:12:26.799 of times of what that was. And I'm glad they don't. 196 00:12:26.919 --> 00:12:28.559 I'm not one of these old people who are like, 197 00:12:29.080 --> 00:12:31.120 you have no idea how bad it was. You got 198 00:12:31.159 --> 00:12:33.600 it so good now. I'm glad that they are not 199 00:12:33.720 --> 00:12:36.799 living through that. But at the same time, I get 200 00:12:36.799 --> 00:12:38.720 pissed off when they do stupid shit like vote for 201 00:12:38.720 --> 00:12:41.039 Trump or something. We didn't go through all this hell, 202 00:12:41.240 --> 00:12:44.720 so you can help us like regress into fascism at 203 00:12:44.720 --> 00:12:45.679 this point. 204 00:12:45.960 --> 00:12:48.639 And that's the interesting thing to me about this is 205 00:12:48.639 --> 00:12:52.879 that in some ways this feels like it's absolutely coming 206 00:12:52.879 --> 00:12:58.080 out of this Reaganist era, and specifically about the Reagan's 207 00:12:58.159 --> 00:13:01.759 non response to AIDS and HIV, and in a way 208 00:13:01.840 --> 00:13:04.039 we can be like, Okay, I'm glad we're not in 209 00:13:04.080 --> 00:13:07.720 that space any longer. But I'm seeing the same tactics, 210 00:13:08.200 --> 00:13:12.080 the same material conditions being deployed against trans people now, 211 00:13:12.759 --> 00:13:16.960 and ultimately as a transperson who has been in this 212 00:13:17.039 --> 00:13:20.519 fight for this entire time, especially when I hear gay 213 00:13:20.559 --> 00:13:24.159 people say, oh, this is a new thing, the trans 214 00:13:24.159 --> 00:13:26.679 thing is a new thing, I'm like, no, We've been 215 00:13:26.720 --> 00:13:29.639 here all along. I fought that fucking battle in the 216 00:13:29.679 --> 00:13:33.240 eighties and in the early nineties, and fighting that same 217 00:13:33.279 --> 00:13:37.159 fucking battle with the same fucking tactics now where this 218 00:13:37.559 --> 00:13:43.799 social pressure is to define us as pariah's anathema, as 219 00:13:44.399 --> 00:13:49.039 to be eradicated, to be quarantined, the we're spreading disease. 220 00:13:49.440 --> 00:13:54.399 All of these tropes are still functioning, they've just been shifted. 221 00:13:55.039 --> 00:13:57.399 And it's interesting to me that we're in a place 222 00:13:57.879 --> 00:14:03.399 historically now where we're seeing AIDS and HIV being arguably cured. 223 00:14:03.639 --> 00:14:08.440 Right we're seeing these news stories what was the fifth 224 00:14:08.480 --> 00:14:13.399 person where maybe it's actually been completely eradicated from their system, 225 00:14:13.440 --> 00:14:16.679 And this is a beautiful moment we should all be celebrating, 226 00:14:16.720 --> 00:14:22.080 because what a beautiful moment for humanity, for science, for 227 00:14:22.200 --> 00:14:28.240 everybody who's been marginalized by that disease historically. And now 228 00:14:28.240 --> 00:14:31.399 we're onto a new thing. But all those same actors, 229 00:14:31.879 --> 00:14:37.399 all those same right wing religious paranoiacs, are still driving 230 00:14:37.639 --> 00:14:38.759 the same bus. 231 00:14:39.399 --> 00:14:44.519 Even recently, what's her name in Congress, Marjorie Green, when 232 00:14:44.679 --> 00:14:47.639 the monkey pox outbreak was going on a couple of 233 00:14:47.679 --> 00:14:49.559 years ago, she was like posting on social media all 234 00:14:49.600 --> 00:14:53.080 the time. She somehow got hold of pictures of mostly 235 00:14:53.120 --> 00:14:55.279 gay men at a clinic or something lining up to 236 00:14:55.320 --> 00:15:01.240 get vaccinated and yeah, and repeatedly posting this trope that 237 00:15:02.159 --> 00:15:05.480 these queers are spreading this disease again, and I'm like, 238 00:15:05.480 --> 00:15:08.679 we're not gonna if this spreads out of control. We're 239 00:15:08.679 --> 00:15:11.039 not taking the blame for this one, you know. And 240 00:15:11.080 --> 00:15:12.480 I was glad to see a lot of people got 241 00:15:12.519 --> 00:15:15.159 vaccinated because it was also at the height too of 242 00:15:16.120 --> 00:15:19.200 anti vacs all of a sudden becoming socially acceptable as well, 243 00:15:19.240 --> 00:15:24.080 which is still lows me away HIV doesn't actually cause anything. 244 00:15:24.080 --> 00:15:27.440 That's what he'll say. If that mad man actually gets 245 00:15:27.440 --> 00:15:28.879 to do anything, it's gonna be bad. 246 00:15:29.360 --> 00:15:31.879 Yeah, absolutely absolutely. 247 00:15:32.799 --> 00:15:35.399 I'm waiting for RFK Junior to announce that he's going 248 00:15:35.480 --> 00:15:39.080 to you know, take prep off of the market. Going 249 00:15:39.120 --> 00:15:41.200 back to some of the stuff that you guys were saying, 250 00:15:41.240 --> 00:15:45.200 I mean even right now, like the election this year 251 00:15:45.279 --> 00:15:48.799 twenty twenty four, the year that we're recording this, so 252 00:15:49.000 --> 00:15:52.000 many because Michigan was a battleground state and we just 253 00:15:52.080 --> 00:15:56.639 had so many literally anti trans ads, and it was 254 00:15:56.720 --> 00:16:00.240 all of this horseshit about well Kamala is paying for 255 00:16:00.480 --> 00:16:04.399 so for prisoners to get sex changes, and oh, you 256 00:16:04.480 --> 00:16:06.519 go to your kid might go to school a boy 257 00:16:06.559 --> 00:16:08.200 and then come home a girl, and all of this 258 00:16:08.360 --> 00:16:11.320 kind of malarkey, and I'm just like, what the fuck 259 00:16:11.320 --> 00:16:14.639 are you guys doing with this? Like this is And 260 00:16:14.679 --> 00:16:17.519 I remember it was like, you know, Trump is for you, 261 00:16:17.720 --> 00:16:20.320 Kamala is for they them, And I'm like, oh my 262 00:16:20.720 --> 00:16:24.639 fucking Christ, I can't believe it. Even the liberal media 263 00:16:24.759 --> 00:16:28.679 was shocked. Kamala supports taxpayer funded sex changes for prisoners 264 00:16:28.759 --> 00:16:29.879 and illegal aliens. 265 00:16:30.320 --> 00:16:33.159 Every transgender inmate would have access. 266 00:16:33.360 --> 00:16:36.320 Kamala is for they them. President Trump is for you. 267 00:16:36.480 --> 00:16:37.080 I'm Donald J. 268 00:16:37.240 --> 00:16:40.879 Trump, and I approve this message. We are still dealing 269 00:16:40.879 --> 00:16:43.080 with the age crisis here in nineteen ninety one. We 270 00:16:43.120 --> 00:16:45.399 are still we're in the Bush era, which might as 271 00:16:45.399 --> 00:16:47.799 well have been the Ragan era, because it was just 272 00:16:48.399 --> 00:16:52.039 same shit, different days, different dude, different dim witted dude 273 00:16:52.039 --> 00:16:54.919 who's out there just like, yeah, I'm clueless, I have 274 00:16:55.000 --> 00:16:57.799 no idea what to do with these weirdo's and they're 275 00:16:57.879 --> 00:17:00.519 weird disease, you know, it's like, oh my god. I mean, 276 00:17:01.159 --> 00:17:05.119 and we don't necessarily get exposed to what this world 277 00:17:05.240 --> 00:17:08.279 was like other than through now like television and movies 278 00:17:08.319 --> 00:17:11.599 and things like pose and stuff, where it's just like, okay, yeah, 279 00:17:11.799 --> 00:17:13.839 this is what the world was like. But I think 280 00:17:13.839 --> 00:17:17.039 they even kind of gloss over that it's way worse 281 00:17:17.200 --> 00:17:18.720 than what we're seeing. 282 00:17:19.119 --> 00:17:21.480 And it doesn't provide the full picture of the various 283 00:17:21.680 --> 00:17:24.759 kinds of ways of being queer, the ways of being 284 00:17:24.839 --> 00:17:27.079 trans and there's no one thing that's ever going to 285 00:17:27.160 --> 00:17:29.759 capture all that, nor shouldn't it attempt to. That's not 286 00:17:29.799 --> 00:17:32.119 what we're doing here. But what I think is really 287 00:17:32.160 --> 00:17:35.240 interesting about this historical moment that we're in is that 288 00:17:35.319 --> 00:17:38.839 this is a beautiful opportunity for people. If they're using 289 00:17:38.880 --> 00:17:42.440 the same tactics to find it against us, we can 290 00:17:42.599 --> 00:17:47.519 use the same tactics to respond, which means that the 291 00:17:47.559 --> 00:17:50.400 people that are making the poisons of this era, whether 292 00:17:50.440 --> 00:17:53.920 it's like Vera dru making the people's joker, etc. Etc. 293 00:17:54.920 --> 00:17:57.759 These are the ways that we're able to respond, so 294 00:17:57.799 --> 00:17:58.759 we can respond in kind. 295 00:17:59.680 --> 00:18:01.640 Before we move on to the movie too, I just 296 00:18:01.680 --> 00:18:03.519 want to talk a little bit about how this was 297 00:18:03.680 --> 00:18:08.079 actively attacked. You know, how people again tend to forget 298 00:18:08.119 --> 00:18:10.599 the whole idea of the national adoment of the arts 299 00:18:10.680 --> 00:18:13.079 or any sort of arts grants, and how those are 300 00:18:13.079 --> 00:18:15.359 a thing of the past a lot of times because 301 00:18:15.480 --> 00:18:18.880 of what happened during this era where Oh my god, 302 00:18:18.920 --> 00:18:22.200 they're using money for queer art and they wouldn't call 303 00:18:22.240 --> 00:18:24.240 it art even, they would just call it pornography. And 304 00:18:24.240 --> 00:18:25.960 they're just like, look at all this stuff, Look at 305 00:18:25.960 --> 00:18:30.119 piss Christ, look at these photos from Robert Mapplethorpe. How 306 00:18:30.160 --> 00:18:32.599 awful is this? And this was one of the things 307 00:18:32.720 --> 00:18:35.759 Poison was one of those hot you know, the firebrand 308 00:18:36.279 --> 00:18:40.039 issues where what's the guy's name, Donald Wildman. 309 00:18:39.680 --> 00:18:44.079 From Wildman and Jesse Helms. May they both rest in 310 00:18:44.200 --> 00:18:48.359 piss forever. Oh my god, this has brought all of 311 00:18:48.400 --> 00:18:50.839 that back to it. There was at my college a 312 00:18:50.880 --> 00:18:54.640 small Maplethorpe exhibit a little bit during this period. Just 313 00:18:54.799 --> 00:18:58.200 remembering all of this again as something else. 314 00:19:00.039 --> 00:19:03.240 At the time, after this movie came out to right 315 00:19:03.359 --> 00:19:08.599 to I think every was it, every congress person or yeah, 316 00:19:08.640 --> 00:19:11.240 and just say do you know that your that federal 317 00:19:11.319 --> 00:19:16.160 money is funding this pornography? And just yeah, of course 318 00:19:16.279 --> 00:19:18.640 I'm sure they're looking at the Jane stuff because the 319 00:19:18.680 --> 00:19:21.519 other stuff is there, but they probably too stupid to 320 00:19:21.559 --> 00:19:24.519 notice it type of thing. But it's just like, oh 321 00:19:24.559 --> 00:19:29.839 my god, this is yeah, just outright attacking. How dare 322 00:19:29.880 --> 00:19:31.359 these people try to make art? 323 00:19:31.480 --> 00:19:31.720 You know? 324 00:19:31.799 --> 00:19:34.119 This is wrong because we're using federal money for this. 325 00:19:34.240 --> 00:19:36.160 It was probably like, you know, a dollar twenty five. 326 00:19:36.240 --> 00:19:39.480 But yet it's like, good lord, any any money coming 327 00:19:39.519 --> 00:19:43.640 from the government going towards this basically deviant art. I mean, 328 00:19:43.680 --> 00:19:46.000 it's the same kind of stuff that Hitler didn't want 329 00:19:46.000 --> 00:19:48.000 to fund back in Germany in the forties. 330 00:19:48.799 --> 00:19:51.519 Around this time, three of the NEA four came to 331 00:19:51.559 --> 00:19:55.559 my college to perform. All of them except Karen Finley 332 00:19:56.039 --> 00:19:59.079 came and they did a performance for me. I was 333 00:19:59.160 --> 00:20:01.880 really ready for Poison to be there for me. It 334 00:20:01.920 --> 00:20:06.480 was a really catalyzing film and a really catalyzing historical moment. 335 00:20:07.359 --> 00:20:10.160 The thing is they wouldn't look at it. There's clips 336 00:20:10.160 --> 00:20:14.160 of Pat Robertson talking about like how pornographic Poison is 337 00:20:14.640 --> 00:20:19.200 and I haven't seen it, and I'm like, I understand. 338 00:20:19.880 --> 00:20:22.880 You in habit a world. There's definitely things I don't 339 00:20:22.920 --> 00:20:25.440 want to see and I can be aware of there's 340 00:20:25.440 --> 00:20:28.319 a thing that I don't want to see, But Poison 341 00:20:28.400 --> 00:20:30.559 is not part of that. This movie is not that 342 00:20:30.599 --> 00:20:32.400 part of that category. I don't want to watch a 343 00:20:32.400 --> 00:20:35.359 snuff film. I don't want to see that, right. I'm 344 00:20:35.599 --> 00:20:38.480 channeling Valerie Cherish from the comeback, I didn't need to 345 00:20:38.519 --> 00:20:42.319 see that, right, If I want to intellectually engage with something, 346 00:20:42.480 --> 00:20:46.720 even if I find it antithetical to my political position, 347 00:20:47.039 --> 00:20:49.200 I really think it's important to look at it and 348 00:20:49.240 --> 00:20:51.799 engage it on its own terms so I can at 349 00:20:51.839 --> 00:20:55.519 least argue against it. And Pat Robertson refused. He wouldn't 350 00:20:55.519 --> 00:20:59.039 look at it, which means he's getting it filtered. He's 351 00:20:59.039 --> 00:21:04.079 getting the interpretation filtered through what, through who, we don't know. 352 00:21:04.319 --> 00:21:05.759 And he would never admit to it. He would just 353 00:21:05.799 --> 00:21:10.079 be like, oh, it's pornography. There's not really pornography. Maybe 354 00:21:10.079 --> 00:21:14.400 a little bit, but yeah, I arguably it's even in 355 00:21:14.440 --> 00:21:18.319 that the one of the most intense scenes, the one 356 00:21:18.480 --> 00:21:23.119 in the Jena section, it's all Jenei section, in the 357 00:21:23.200 --> 00:21:29.119 Holms section where there's a rape scene. Effectively, right, we're 358 00:21:29.119 --> 00:21:31.839 not seeing genitals, we're not seeing it's all we're seeing 359 00:21:31.839 --> 00:21:35.640 in that is faces. But we know what's happening there, 360 00:21:36.480 --> 00:21:40.720 and it's incredibly effective. And it goes back to that 361 00:21:40.799 --> 00:21:45.599 old oh what's his name? I forge the definition of pornography. 362 00:21:45.720 --> 00:21:48.960 I know when I see it that when you see it. 363 00:21:49.680 --> 00:21:53.960 But you can't buy those other definitions of what pornography 364 00:21:54.039 --> 00:21:58.119 is where you see genitals, fluid, where you see these things. 365 00:21:58.480 --> 00:22:01.640 It's not defined by that, it's more defined by what 366 00:22:02.119 --> 00:22:03.200 you don't see. 367 00:22:03.839 --> 00:22:07.519 Yeah, there's like the brief glimpse of a man's penis, 368 00:22:07.559 --> 00:22:11.000 which I think is just a prosthetic penis. I don't 369 00:22:11.039 --> 00:22:13.640 even think it's the real deal. But oh my god, 370 00:22:13.759 --> 00:22:15.480 you know we have to cut that out. And then 371 00:22:15.519 --> 00:22:17.319 what was it? I think it was during the rape 372 00:22:17.319 --> 00:22:19.839 scene they're like, you have to make this shorter, and 373 00:22:19.880 --> 00:22:23.119 it's like, well, do you object to any particular shot? No, no, 374 00:22:23.160 --> 00:22:25.200 it just needs to be shorter, like you can't go 375 00:22:25.279 --> 00:22:25.960 on this log. 376 00:22:26.759 --> 00:22:29.319 Yeah, it was like just the It wasn't a specific 377 00:22:30.119 --> 00:22:31.799 part of it, it was just the I guess the 378 00:22:31.839 --> 00:22:34.119 total effect of it was just too much to get 379 00:22:34.119 --> 00:22:36.960 the because they were trying to get Was it a 380 00:22:37.000 --> 00:22:38.720 cut to try to get an R rating so they 381 00:22:38.759 --> 00:22:39.799 could be in theaters? 382 00:22:40.519 --> 00:22:42.880 Was NC seventeen a thing yet at this point? Did 383 00:22:42.920 --> 00:22:43.400 it get it? 384 00:22:44.200 --> 00:22:44.640 Yeah? 385 00:22:44.839 --> 00:22:47.319 Right around this point, Yeah, that's. 386 00:22:47.160 --> 00:22:50.799 Not really any better than an X really, because at 387 00:22:51.319 --> 00:22:54.279 as soon as NC seventeen started, the theater chains and 388 00:22:54.319 --> 00:22:57.799 Blockbuster and stuff wouldn't carry those films anyway, So you 389 00:22:58.119 --> 00:22:59.759 needed an r get to get out there. 390 00:23:00.839 --> 00:23:02.920 But it gets to this question like how long should 391 00:23:02.920 --> 00:23:05.480 a rape be? How long? How long? 392 00:23:06.799 --> 00:23:09.839 Just let me know, rape should go on as long 393 00:23:09.880 --> 00:23:10.559 as they have to. 394 00:23:11.400 --> 00:23:15.480 Thank you MPAA for clearly defining that for us, because 395 00:23:15.519 --> 00:23:19.079 I prefer it at a zero A zero. This is 396 00:23:19.079 --> 00:23:19.720 what I would like. 397 00:23:20.759 --> 00:23:24.200 I love the structure, like I said, of this movie 398 00:23:24.240 --> 00:23:26.880 and just the way that it's put together, and I 399 00:23:27.039 --> 00:23:31.079 love that. If you were to go through and if 400 00:23:31.079 --> 00:23:33.920 you're some sort of maniac and do a fan edit 401 00:23:34.039 --> 00:23:36.960