1 00:00:01,120 --> 00:00:04,160 Speaker 1: You're listening to the Mind Over Murder podcast. 2 00:00:06,000 --> 00:00:09,679 Speaker 2: My name is Bill Thomas. I'm a writer, consulting, producer, 3 00:00:09,720 --> 00:00:12,839 and now podcaster. I am now trying to use my 4 00:00:12,919 --> 00:00:15,800 experience as the brother of a murder victim to help 5 00:00:15,880 --> 00:00:18,640 other victims of violent crime. I'm working on a book 6 00:00:18,679 --> 00:00:21,440 on the unsolved Colonial Parkway murders and I'm the co 7 00:00:21,519 --> 00:00:24,760 administrator of the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook group together with 8 00:00:24,839 --> 00:00:25,519 Kristin Dilly. 9 00:00:26,120 --> 00:00:29,120 Speaker 3: My name is Kristin Dilly. I'm a writer, a researcher, 10 00:00:29,320 --> 00:00:32,079 a teacher, and a victim's advocate, as well as the 11 00:00:32,119 --> 00:00:35,840 social media manager and co administrator for the Colonial Parkway 12 00:00:35,880 --> 00:00:39,079 Murders Facebook page with my partner in crime, Bill Thomas. 13 00:00:46,880 --> 00:00:49,840 Speaker 4: Welcome to Mind Ever Murder. I'm Kristin Dilly. 14 00:00:49,640 --> 00:00:50,719 Speaker 2: And I'm Bill Thomas. 15 00:00:51,679 --> 00:00:54,200 Speaker 4: And we were talking before we went on the air 16 00:00:54,240 --> 00:00:57,039 about potential themes for today's show because I am an 17 00:00:57,079 --> 00:01:00,640 English teacher and themes are things that I love, and 18 00:01:00,719 --> 00:01:04,640 so we did settle on a theme for today's episode. 19 00:01:04,680 --> 00:01:06,640 Speaker 2: We did what's the theme? 20 00:01:07,599 --> 00:01:10,400 Speaker 4: We decided that we wanted to focus on the idea 21 00:01:10,599 --> 00:01:14,560 of families taking legal action in the form of say, 22 00:01:14,879 --> 00:01:21,599 lawsuits or various legal maneuvers in order to receive the 23 00:01:21,680 --> 00:01:24,640 justice that they feel they deserve. How's that for a theme? 24 00:01:24,680 --> 00:01:25,359 Did that work out? 25 00:01:25,599 --> 00:01:27,319 Speaker 2: That worked out very well? Mws dilly. 26 00:01:27,879 --> 00:01:30,599 Speaker 4: I keep trying to remind my students that theme isn't 27 00:01:30,640 --> 00:01:33,159 just a word, it's a sentence. So I tried for 28 00:01:33,239 --> 00:01:34,000 a sentence there. 29 00:01:34,120 --> 00:01:35,760 Speaker 2: I'm not sure I completely follow. 30 00:01:36,000 --> 00:01:37,920 Speaker 4: People will be like, oh, the theme is anger, and 31 00:01:37,959 --> 00:01:40,560 I'm like, no, that's too broad, Like theme needs to 32 00:01:40,560 --> 00:01:42,200 be a little bit more specific than that. 33 00:01:43,319 --> 00:01:46,400 Speaker 2: This is a podcast where we talk about developments in 34 00:01:46,439 --> 00:01:49,280 true crime. Yes, we interview a lot of people in 35 00:01:49,319 --> 00:01:53,239 true crime, and there were some news stories that we 36 00:01:53,280 --> 00:01:57,719 wanted to discuss in some significant cases. Then as we 37 00:01:57,719 --> 00:02:00,879 were going through them this morning, a theme emerged. 38 00:02:01,319 --> 00:02:04,359 Speaker 4: Yes, we realized there was a through line for all 39 00:02:04,400 --> 00:02:09,080 of this, and that seems to be justice. Justice via 40 00:02:09,159 --> 00:02:13,479 the court system as necessarily opposed to arrests in various 41 00:02:13,479 --> 00:02:18,080 other things. So we have three specific stories that we 42 00:02:18,159 --> 00:02:21,439 want to talk about that are related to crimes that 43 00:02:21,840 --> 00:02:25,199 probably most of you are familiar with. There's certainly things 44 00:02:25,240 --> 00:02:28,560 that we've talked about before and the way that these 45 00:02:28,599 --> 00:02:32,800 families are seeking justice through the court system. So we'll 46 00:02:32,800 --> 00:02:35,039 go ahead and start with one that I think if 47 00:02:35,039 --> 00:02:37,680 you haven't heard of this case already, you've probably been 48 00:02:37,719 --> 00:02:40,520 living under a rock for the last couple of years. 49 00:02:40,560 --> 00:02:43,800 And that is the case that I think everybody refers 50 00:02:43,800 --> 00:02:46,280 to it as the Adnan Sayed case, but right at 51 00:02:46,280 --> 00:02:50,080 the moment, it is the Haman Lee case because Adnan 52 00:02:50,159 --> 00:02:55,919 said his conviction has been vacated in the murder of Hamanly. Fortunately, 53 00:02:56,039 --> 00:02:59,439 while we are very happy that Adnan is now free, 54 00:02:59,439 --> 00:03:01,960 if it turns out that he has been run fully 55 00:03:02,039 --> 00:03:05,520 convicted in jail for twenty five years, unfortunately, that does 56 00:03:05,680 --> 00:03:08,960 mean that the Leaf family is left with no answers 57 00:03:09,240 --> 00:03:13,120 as to who murdered Hayman Lee. And it also means 58 00:03:13,199 --> 00:03:16,800 that they have had to go through this trauma a 59 00:03:16,919 --> 00:03:20,360 second time of realizing, Okay, not only do we not 60 00:03:20,520 --> 00:03:24,240 know who her murderer is, but they also were It 61 00:03:24,280 --> 00:03:29,199 appears badly neglected by the criminal justice system as they 62 00:03:29,240 --> 00:03:33,360 went through this process of very quickly vacating the conviction 63 00:03:33,599 --> 00:03:37,039 of Adnan Sayad. And I know, Bill, this is something 64 00:03:37,120 --> 00:03:40,280 that as a family member of a crime victim, this 65 00:03:40,360 --> 00:03:43,400 is something that I know you feel very strongly about 66 00:03:43,520 --> 00:03:46,439 the family's being treated fairly and correctly by the criminal 67 00:03:46,560 --> 00:03:47,240 justice system. 68 00:03:47,919 --> 00:03:52,599 Speaker 2: In this example, the decision of prosecutors to vacate Adnan 69 00:03:52,719 --> 00:03:57,639 Sayed's sentence, which we totally support. Yeah, we were just 70 00:03:58,159 --> 00:04:04,520 shocked at how offhandedly Haiman Lee's family was treated. It 71 00:04:04,560 --> 00:04:09,680 was like it didn't even occur to them to involve 72 00:04:09,800 --> 00:04:14,120 that Haim and Lee family in at least discussions or 73 00:04:14,319 --> 00:04:20,199 notice that this was coming. Him and Lee's brother commented 74 00:04:20,240 --> 00:04:23,639 that they received essentially no notice that this was going 75 00:04:23,720 --> 00:04:26,839 to happen. It isn't I think that they were necessarily 76 00:04:26,879 --> 00:04:30,639 going to object for them, they had been led to 77 00:04:30,680 --> 00:04:34,800 believe that Adnan Sayed was responsible for her debt all 78 00:04:34,839 --> 00:04:38,360 those years ago, and now they're being hit with new information, 79 00:04:38,519 --> 00:04:41,319 which I think has led us to the truth, or 80 00:04:41,360 --> 00:04:43,720 at least part of the truth. But to not even 81 00:04:43,800 --> 00:04:47,079 give them a proper heads up that this was coming 82 00:04:47,439 --> 00:04:50,639 and that mister Sayed's sentence had been vacated and that 83 00:04:50,720 --> 00:04:54,240 he was going to be released from jail, even though 84 00:04:54,279 --> 00:04:56,279 I think it was the right thing to do, it 85 00:04:56,399 --> 00:05:00,800 was so badly handled. It didn't occur to anybody to 86 00:05:00,879 --> 00:05:03,199 reach out to the victim's family to let them know 87 00:05:03,279 --> 00:05:04,319 that this had happened. 88 00:05:05,000 --> 00:05:07,600 Speaker 4: So I'm going to quote from a really excellent Rolling 89 00:05:07,680 --> 00:05:12,639 Stone article here, and the quote comes from the Lee 90 00:05:12,839 --> 00:05:17,879 family's attorney, Steve Kelly. Now him and Lee's family has 91 00:05:17,879 --> 00:05:23,800 requested an evidentiary hearing with regard to Sayed's exoneration, which 92 00:05:23,879 --> 00:05:26,600 again we support. We're glad of this. We just don't 93 00:05:26,639 --> 00:05:28,399 want the Lee family to be left out on them. 94 00:05:28,560 --> 00:05:32,160 The Lee family is claiming that prosecutors treated them in 95 00:05:32,199 --> 00:05:37,040 a quote callous and unconstitutional manner end quote when they 96 00:05:37,079 --> 00:05:40,160 were not given enough notice to appear at the hearing 97 00:05:40,759 --> 00:05:45,040 of Sayed's conviction being vacated. I think it was something ridiculous, 98 00:05:45,040 --> 00:05:48,560 like they had maybe thirty minutes notice for him. We're 99 00:05:48,600 --> 00:05:52,079 talking about Hayes brother to get onto a zoom call 100 00:05:52,199 --> 00:05:55,800 to appear at this hearing. When I heard that, I 101 00:05:55,959 --> 00:06:01,519 was absolutely aghast. Rolling Stone continues to again, according to 102 00:06:01,639 --> 00:06:06,040 the Lee family attorney Steve Kelly, that a public evidentiary 103 00:06:06,160 --> 00:06:10,519 hearing in emotion to vacate is required and that allows 104 00:06:10,560 --> 00:06:14,839 the family the chance to examine the evidence and raise questions. 105 00:06:15,079 --> 00:06:19,959 That hearing was not held, and according to Steve Kelly, 106 00:06:20,120 --> 00:06:23,920 their attorney, this quote shut the Lee family out from 107 00:06:23,959 --> 00:06:28,920 any meaningful involvement or engagement with the record. End quote. 108 00:06:29,240 --> 00:06:33,360 Speaker 2: We support the sentence of Adnan said being vacated. We 109 00:06:33,399 --> 00:06:36,879 think that's the right thing. Why are they not even 110 00:06:37,040 --> 00:06:41,920 thinking about the fact that the victim's family needs proper 111 00:06:42,040 --> 00:06:46,360 notice and some level of participation. Even if they were 112 00:06:46,480 --> 00:06:48,839 to say we think this is wrong, I'm not sure 113 00:06:48,920 --> 00:06:52,560 they would necessarily say that, But I think most people, 114 00:06:52,720 --> 00:06:57,639 myself included, would only want to see a guilty party 115 00:06:57,959 --> 00:07:00,560 go to jail. I think it would be hard breaking 116 00:07:01,480 --> 00:07:04,360 if you ever had any doubt that the person who 117 00:07:04,480 --> 00:07:10,240 was charged in your loved ones murder, for example, was incorrect. 118 00:07:11,360 --> 00:07:16,560 That's just compounding tragedy of your own loss by destroying 119 00:07:16,560 --> 00:07:19,639 the life of someone who has perhaps had nothing to 120 00:07:19,680 --> 00:07:25,319 do with your loved ones murder to not involve them 121 00:07:25,360 --> 00:07:28,360 in the process. This begins to make me think of 122 00:07:28,399 --> 00:07:33,240 the Epstein case down in Florida, where the victims received 123 00:07:33,480 --> 00:07:36,879 no notice whatsoever that they've been sold down the river 124 00:07:36,959 --> 00:07:38,120 by the Department. 125 00:07:37,800 --> 00:07:42,639 Speaker 4: Of Justice exactly now. The attorney for the Lee family 126 00:07:43,160 --> 00:07:47,120 was very quick to say they aren't looking to reverse 127 00:07:47,199 --> 00:07:50,399 that decision, like they're not looking to have him rearrested. 128 00:07:50,800 --> 00:07:53,759 They're not looking to put him back in jail. But 129 00:07:53,879 --> 00:07:58,319 he did say quite eloquently all this family ever wanted 130 00:07:58,800 --> 00:08:04,319 was answers and a voice. Today's actions robbed them of both, 131 00:08:04,399 --> 00:08:08,519 and that is so important for these families to have. 132 00:08:08,720 --> 00:08:12,720 And now Adnan sayed and his family have they have 133 00:08:12,800 --> 00:08:15,399 had both of those things. They have had. They now 134 00:08:15,439 --> 00:08:17,839 have answers as to what went wrong and why he 135 00:08:17,920 --> 00:08:21,360 was wrongfully convicted. And Adnan has definitely had a voice 136 00:08:21,759 --> 00:08:27,160 through the podcast Serial, through Rabbia Chawdrey's podcast Undisclosed, and 137 00:08:27,240 --> 00:08:30,639 through every other podcast that has covered this case. There's 138 00:08:30,680 --> 00:08:33,759 also been which is a lot. Yeah, absolutely, there's also 139 00:08:33,879 --> 00:08:37,879 Robbia's book Odd Non Story. Adnan has definitely had his 140 00:08:38,000 --> 00:08:40,639 story told, and we are very supportive of the fact 141 00:08:40,679 --> 00:08:42,759 that he has been able to tell his story because 142 00:08:42,840 --> 00:08:47,519 ultimately it led to this. But the Lee family, I 143 00:08:47,559 --> 00:08:51,399 think has been very badly overlooked. And in fact, the 144 00:08:51,519 --> 00:08:56,679 Baltimore States Attorney Marilyn Moseby defended her decision not to 145 00:08:56,720 --> 00:09:01,720 give the Lee family more notice of Adnan's conviction being vacated, 146 00:09:02,039 --> 00:09:05,720 She says, and this really made me angry. She notified 147 00:09:05,720 --> 00:09:09,320 the family but could not wait for a response before 148 00:09:09,399 --> 00:09:14,759 moving forward. She said, justice delayed is justice denied? 149 00:09:15,320 --> 00:09:19,519 Speaker 2: Wow, that's pretty rich. I generally like ms Mosby and 150 00:09:19,559 --> 00:09:22,759 I appreciate the work that she does, But to throw 151 00:09:22,919 --> 00:09:29,000 that back in their face, Yeah, I'm sorry, that's really inappropriate. 152 00:09:30,240 --> 00:09:32,600 Of course, we want to get mister Sayed out of 153 00:09:32,720 --> 00:09:36,559 jail and the man appears to have suffered enough. What 154 00:09:36,559 --> 00:09:40,240 do you mean not wait for a response? Her brother says, 155 00:09:40,240 --> 00:09:44,200 they got thirty minutes noticed and this is outrageous, Like 156 00:09:44,399 --> 00:09:47,360 they couldn't have contacted them. I don't even understand what 157 00:09:47,399 --> 00:09:50,639 Marilyn Moseby's saying. They could have contacted them weeks before 158 00:09:50,679 --> 00:09:54,320 and said, look, there's something coming here. Yes, you need 159 00:09:54,360 --> 00:09:58,440 to prepare yourself for that. There's no thought whatsoever to 160 00:09:58,559 --> 00:10:00,559 the victim and her face real and. 161 00:10:00,600 --> 00:10:03,559 Speaker 4: We are familiar with that concept of justice delayed is 162 00:10:03,720 --> 00:10:06,960 justice denied. Our friends over at Real Crime Profile have 163 00:10:07,120 --> 00:10:09,720 said that for years and years. That is something that 164 00:10:09,759 --> 00:10:13,039 we believe as well. Let them respond, give them another 165 00:10:13,159 --> 00:10:14,279 half hour, an. 166 00:10:14,159 --> 00:10:16,840 Speaker 2: Hour, two hours, come on this. 167 00:10:17,000 --> 00:10:20,159 Speaker 4: It is really upset me that she would say that 168 00:10:20,360 --> 00:10:20,879 to them. 169 00:10:21,240 --> 00:10:25,639 Speaker 2: This thing, the release didn't come about in a half 170 00:10:25,679 --> 00:10:28,200 an hour. I'm sorry, I'm not saying I'm going to 171 00:10:28,240 --> 00:10:31,360 push back here, Kristin. I don't think a few hours 172 00:10:31,519 --> 00:10:34,639 is enough. They were working on this for weeks, if 173 00:10:34,720 --> 00:10:40,200 not months. They could have told the family this is coming, 174 00:10:41,039 --> 00:10:44,000 we are working out the details, but you need to 175 00:10:44,000 --> 00:10:47,039 prepare yourselves, and they didn't do that. And I don't 176 00:10:47,039 --> 00:10:51,320 know what Marilyn Mosby is thinking. This is outrageous and 177 00:10:51,399 --> 00:10:54,519 for her to throw back justice delayed is justice denied? 178 00:10:54,840 --> 00:10:56,240 That's pretty rich. 179 00:10:57,399 --> 00:11:00,200 Speaker 4: No, I agree, and it did bring up for me 180 00:11:00,360 --> 00:11:03,759 a lot of questions about what are the families of 181 00:11:03,879 --> 00:11:08,879 crime victims owed by the criminal justice system? How should 182 00:11:08,919 --> 00:11:11,279 they be treated? And the answer is not like this. 183 00:11:12,240 --> 00:11:15,440 They should not be treated like this. This was horrible 184 00:11:15,720 --> 00:11:18,960 for the Lee family. Now, what is already a really 185 00:11:19,080 --> 00:11:23,879 painful and horrible situation having your loved one murdered, is 186 00:11:23,919 --> 00:11:29,039 only compounded by being treated this way by the criminal 187 00:11:29,120 --> 00:11:31,440 justice system that A got it wrong in the first place, 188 00:11:32,159 --> 00:11:35,080 and B is now running roughshod over their feelings. 189 00:11:35,279 --> 00:11:41,120 Speaker 2: I'm just appalled, just for Clarity's sake, because somebody will 190 00:11:41,159 --> 00:11:43,919 probably jump on us for y's what I just said 191 00:11:43,919 --> 00:11:46,159 a moment ago. I want to be clear here, I'm 192 00:11:46,159 --> 00:11:49,679 not implying that mister Siah should have stayed in jail 193 00:11:50,120 --> 00:11:54,840 one minute longer than he did while waiting for answers. 194 00:11:56,159 --> 00:12:00,480 Marilyn Moseby's office could have reached out to him and 195 00:12:00,559 --> 00:12:05,679 Lee's family earlier. I don't want to say that Odnon 196 00:12:05,720 --> 00:12:09,000 should be rotting in jail any longer than he did. 197 00:12:09,279 --> 00:12:12,399 The whole thing is a complete miscarriage of justice. But 198 00:12:12,799 --> 00:12:17,000 that agreement to release him from jail, which was the 199 00:12:17,120 --> 00:12:20,519 right thing to do. They were working on that for weeks, 200 00:12:20,519 --> 00:12:23,600 if not months. They could have let him and Lee's 201 00:12:23,639 --> 00:12:27,480 family know. So I don't want to be misunderstood that 202 00:12:27,559 --> 00:12:31,440 I'm implying that Odnon should be sitting in jail a minute, 203 00:12:31,559 --> 00:12:34,720 an hour, or a day longer than he did. Of Course, 204 00:12:34,759 --> 00:12:36,399 you want to get him out of jail as soon 205 00:12:36,440 --> 00:12:41,960 as possible. Yeah, particularly when you realize we ignored other suspects. 206 00:12:42,279 --> 00:12:45,960 We missed significant steps that should have been taken in 207 00:12:46,000 --> 00:12:50,759 this investigation, which may have identified other potential suspects in 208 00:12:50,840 --> 00:12:54,600 him and Lee's death. There's just no way around the 209 00:12:54,679 --> 00:13:00,320 fact that the prosecutors and the decision to vacate those 210 00:13:00,360 --> 00:13:04,879 decisions were percolating and working their way through the system. 211 00:13:05,639 --> 00:13:10,480 Hayman Lef's family could have received appropriate notice, and I 212 00:13:10,519 --> 00:13:13,519 think it's outrageous and I feel like they and even 213 00:13:13,600 --> 00:13:15,759 she have been forgotten in all of this. 214 00:13:17,200 --> 00:13:20,240 Speaker 4: You can't forget the victim in this case. It does 215 00:13:20,360 --> 00:13:25,879 feel at times like the fervor in let's get on 216 00:13:26,120 --> 00:13:29,600 non released, which again we are fully supportive of. We 217 00:13:29,600 --> 00:13:32,039 don't want anybody to mistake us on that. It just 218 00:13:32,080 --> 00:13:36,440 feels like the fervor means that Hayminley and her family 219 00:13:36,639 --> 00:13:39,960 are left behind. It's got to be an awful feeling 220 00:13:40,360 --> 00:13:44,360 for them. I do want to quote from the State's 221 00:13:44,440 --> 00:13:49,679 Attorney's office, the State's Attorneys said, quote, our office truly 222 00:13:49,759 --> 00:13:54,080 empathizes with the family of Haymanly, which is why all 223 00:13:54,120 --> 00:13:57,399 along we've attempted to keep them apprized of each step 224 00:13:57,480 --> 00:14:01,240 of the legal process. As we've already conveyed to the 225 00:14:01,320 --> 00:14:06,480 victim's attorney, we remain committed to offering counseling services, detailing 226 00:14:06,519 --> 00:14:10,840 our investigation, and keeping open lines of communication with this family, 227 00:14:11,279 --> 00:14:14,320 who have clearly been re victimized by the misdeeds of 228 00:14:14,399 --> 00:14:18,159 prior prosecutors. I call a little bit of bullshit on 229 00:14:18,320 --> 00:14:19,279 some of that statement. 230 00:14:20,200 --> 00:14:22,600 Speaker 2: I appreciate the sentiment, and I hope they are. I 231 00:14:22,600 --> 00:14:25,320 do too, trying to provide the Lee family with the 232 00:14:25,360 --> 00:14:29,960 resources that they mentioned, but proper notice, it just didn't 233 00:14:30,000 --> 00:14:32,919 happen in this example. If the Lee family is to 234 00:14:32,960 --> 00:14:34,519 be believed, then I believe them. 235 00:14:35,840 --> 00:14:38,879 Speaker 4: No, I agree, And it sounds too like open lines 236 00:14:38,879 --> 00:14:41,840 of communication with this family. I call bullshit on that 237 00:14:41,879 --> 00:14:45,720 one too. Yeah, because, as you said, legal decisions like 238 00:14:45,799 --> 00:14:49,559 this one take weeks, if not months. At the very least, 239 00:14:49,600 --> 00:14:52,960 they could have done them the courtesy of saying, hey, something's. 240 00:14:52,559 --> 00:14:56,720 Speaker 2: Coming, we're working on this. Steve Kelly, the attorney for 241 00:14:56,759 --> 00:14:59,559 the Lee family, did make it very clear they're not 242 00:14:59,600 --> 00:15:04,799 objects to odd Non's release from jail, not in the least. 243 00:15:05,120 --> 00:15:08,200 They're just saying it would have been nice if somebody 244 00:15:08,480 --> 00:15:12,759 had kept them informed. Yeah, and that clearly has not happened. 245 00:15:13,720 --> 00:15:17,879 Speaker 4: They have questioned the decision to vacate based on the 246 00:15:17,919 --> 00:15:21,720 evidence that is provided by the state. If you haven't 247 00:15:21,759 --> 00:15:26,440 been apprized of the investigation and the intent to vacate 248 00:15:26,639 --> 00:15:30,039 thus far, I can see why you would want to say, 249 00:15:30,360 --> 00:15:32,639 can I see the evidence? Let me get a quote 250 00:15:32,639 --> 00:15:36,919 from Rolling Stone here. Baltimore State's attorney Marilyn Moseby stated 251 00:15:36,960 --> 00:15:39,360 that the evidence which allowed for the conviction to be 252 00:15:39,840 --> 00:15:42,840 vacated was a Brady violation. We've all heard that term 253 00:15:42,919 --> 00:15:45,399 on the part of the prosecution. They failed to turn 254 00:15:45,399 --> 00:15:49,600 over evidence which showed alternative suspects. Steve Kelly argues the 255 00:15:49,639 --> 00:15:52,679 physical evidence of those claims, such as two notes from 256 00:15:52,720 --> 00:15:55,759 a prosecutor saying someone close to Sayed had a motive 257 00:15:55,799 --> 00:15:58,720 for killing Lee and had threatened her, should be entered 258 00:15:58,720 --> 00:16:01,600 into the court record. We want to see actual evidence, 259 00:16:01,679 --> 00:16:04,759 Kelly tells Rolling Stone. You can't keep it secret and say, 260 00:16:04,919 --> 00:16:07,919 trust us, you have to have an open public hearing 261 00:16:08,320 --> 00:16:10,639 if you're going to take away a jury verdict that's 262 00:16:10,679 --> 00:16:14,039 over twenty years old. They make a good point. The 263 00:16:14,200 --> 00:16:18,039 reporting emphasizes a number of times they are not looking 264 00:16:18,440 --> 00:16:21,240 free reversal of this. They're not looking to have Adnan 265 00:16:21,480 --> 00:16:24,919 rearrested put back in jail, But they are saying we 266 00:16:24,960 --> 00:16:28,080 want clarity, we want fairness, and we want to be 267 00:16:28,120 --> 00:16:32,480 able to see what it is that caused this vacation 268 00:16:32,600 --> 00:16:35,679 of the conviction to happen. And I can understand that 269 00:16:35,879 --> 00:16:38,679 coming from the point of view of the family who 270 00:16:38,759 --> 00:16:40,960 are now having to deal with the idea that they 271 00:16:40,960 --> 00:16:44,600 don't actually know who killed Paymanly. I can see why 272 00:16:44,600 --> 00:16:49,399 they would want transparency in the process. I do get it. Clearly. 273 00:16:49,440 --> 00:16:53,120 There will be further developments as this case continues to 274 00:16:53,200 --> 00:16:56,279 move forward, and we will keep you apprized on that 275 00:16:56,480 --> 00:17:01,320 as decisions continue to be made. We also wanted to 276 00:17:01,840 --> 00:17:06,079 speak about another interesting judicial outcome on a case that 277 00:17:06,200 --> 00:17:11,079 we covered already earlier this year. In January, which feels 278 00:17:11,119 --> 00:17:15,079 like one hundred billion years ago, was opposed to yearly twelve. 279 00:17:15,519 --> 00:17:18,440 Speaker 2: You mean January twenty twenty two. 280 00:17:19,240 --> 00:17:22,359 Speaker 4: Yeah, January twenty twenty two. It feels like we've been 281 00:17:22,400 --> 00:17:23,480 in this year forever. 282 00:17:23,720 --> 00:17:25,799 Speaker 2: It does seem like a million years ago. 283 00:17:26,240 --> 00:17:30,200 Speaker 4: It really does. We covered in an episode titled Malcolm 284 00:17:30,359 --> 00:17:35,839 X Exoneration. We covered the exoneration of Leile Islam and 285 00:17:35,960 --> 00:17:40,920 Muhammad Azziz, who were exonerated after many years of being 286 00:17:41,000 --> 00:17:45,160 wrongfully convicted for the murder of Malcolm X in New 287 00:17:45,279 --> 00:17:49,160 York City in nineteen sixty five. If you missed our 288 00:17:49,279 --> 00:17:53,119 coverage on that case, please do go back to our 289 00:17:53,279 --> 00:17:56,839 January seventeenth, twenty twenty two episode and give it a listen. 290 00:17:56,920 --> 00:18:00,559 And it does cover all of the information about the 291 00:18:00,599 --> 00:18:04,359 wrongful conviction of these two men in Malcolm X's murder. 292 00:18:04,480 --> 00:18:08,440 Only enough, New York City has decided to confer a 293 00:18:08,839 --> 00:18:13,640 thirty six million dollars settlement on Mohammed Disease, who is 294 00:18:13,720 --> 00:18:17,440 still alive, and the state of Khalili Islam, who is not. 295 00:18:17,880 --> 00:18:21,400 So the sum will ultimately be split between mister Disease 296 00:18:21,480 --> 00:18:25,480 and the Islam estate. The way that the settlement broke 297 00:18:25,559 --> 00:18:30,359 down is New York City itself provided twenty six million 298 00:18:30,440 --> 00:18:33,319 dollars of the settlement, and that's because there seems to 299 00:18:33,480 --> 00:18:37,000 have been a bit of malfeasance on the part of 300 00:18:37,039 --> 00:18:40,039 the New York Police Department, and then the State of 301 00:18:40,119 --> 00:18:44,200 New York through in ten million dollars for the settlements. 302 00:18:44,400 --> 00:18:46,680 And I'm going to go ahead in quote from David 303 00:18:46,759 --> 00:18:51,640 Shanny's who is the lawyer for both men. These settlements 304 00:18:51,680 --> 00:18:57,680 acknowledge Muhammed Disease in Khalili Slam's innocence and unconscionable violations 305 00:18:57,759 --> 00:19:01,799 of the law by police and prosecuters sworn to uphold it. 306 00:19:02,559 --> 00:19:06,480 The damage caused by wrongful convictions can never be undone, 307 00:19:06,720 --> 00:19:09,400 but we owe it to history and to the people 308 00:19:09,440 --> 00:19:12,839 whose lives were destroyed. To face the truth and try 309 00:19:12,880 --> 00:19:17,119 to make amends. The payouts serve as another public maya 310 00:19:17,200 --> 00:19:21,160 culpa for the combined forty two years that Dizies eighty 311 00:19:21,200 --> 00:19:23,960 four in Islam, who died in two thousand and nine, 312 00:19:24,119 --> 00:19:28,279 served in prison before prosecutors admitted to making a tragic mistake. 313 00:19:29,000 --> 00:19:32,559 The pair was exonerated in November after a jury previously 314 00:19:32,599 --> 00:19:36,440 found them guilty of participating in Malcolm X's nineteen sixty 315 00:19:36,440 --> 00:19:40,359 five assassination on the stage of Manhattan's Autobahn Ballroom. And 316 00:19:40,400 --> 00:19:42,480 that is from the New York Times, who did an 317 00:19:42,519 --> 00:19:43,960 excellent article about this. 318 00:19:44,759 --> 00:19:48,720 Speaker 2: What a tragedy that police and prosecutors in New York 319 00:19:48,720 --> 00:19:52,680 got so much wrong here in the assassination of Malcolm 320 00:19:52,920 --> 00:19:57,240 X and ended up ultimately charging the wrong people. There's 321 00:19:57,240 --> 00:19:59,440 been a lot of reporting over the last couple of 322 00:19:59,519 --> 00:20:02,680 years that the New York City Police Department and the 323 00:20:02,799 --> 00:20:07,480 FBI had some advanced warning that there had been threats 324 00:20:07,519 --> 00:20:10,119 made against Malcolm X's life. He was clearly a very 325 00:20:10,160 --> 00:20:14,640 controversial figure and highly criticized by law enforcement, including the 326 00:20:14,799 --> 00:20:19,160 NYPD and the FBI, as well as his own I 327 00:20:19,200 --> 00:20:23,079 think rivals is the right word. Yes, within the movement 328 00:20:23,400 --> 00:20:27,480 that were highly critical of him and actually were actively 329 00:20:27,519 --> 00:20:30,920 making threats that he might be killed. It appears that 330 00:20:31,079 --> 00:20:34,799 NYPD and the FBI did not do enough to convey 331 00:20:35,160 --> 00:20:38,920 the seriousness of those threats to the Nation of Islam 332 00:20:39,160 --> 00:20:42,359 and to Malcolm X's security detail. 333 00:20:43,160 --> 00:20:48,319 Speaker 4: The settlement ultimately was reached and announced on October thirty first. 334 00:20:49,119 --> 00:20:53,400 We are thrilled that there has been some restitution done 335 00:20:53,720 --> 00:20:57,720 in this case for these two men who very clearly 336 00:20:57,759 --> 00:21:01,319 suffered at the hands of the FBI and NYPD, and 337 00:21:01,359 --> 00:21:03,400 we're sent to jail for a crime they just did 338 00:21:03,440 --> 00:21:07,599 not commit. So we do continue to wish them well, 339 00:21:07,920 --> 00:21:12,160 both mister Aziz who is still alive and mister Islam's 340 00:21:12,200 --> 00:21:14,680 family who continues to deal with the fallout from this. 341 00:21:15,000 --> 00:21:17,599 We are pleased that this has worked out in their favor. 342 00:21:18,319 --> 00:21:21,400 Speaker 2: Sadly, in terms of the pursuit of justice, fifty seven 343 00:21:21,480 --> 00:21:26,240 years have transpired since Malcolm X was murdered, and many 344 00:21:26,319 --> 00:21:29,640 of the people involved have passed on, and of course, 345 00:21:29,880 --> 00:21:32,960 as we've seen in the Colonial Parkway murders, at thirty 346 00:21:33,000 --> 00:21:37,799 six year mark, it becomes increasingly challenging to get to 347 00:21:37,880 --> 00:21:41,319 the truth of something which has a lot of layers 348 00:21:41,400 --> 00:21:45,519 to it. Memories have faded, people have passed, so it's 349 00:21:45,559 --> 00:21:47,519 difficult to see that we would ever get to the 350 00:21:47,559 --> 00:21:51,640 bottom of what truly happened that day at the Audubon Ballroom. 351 00:21:52,160 --> 00:21:53,960 Speaker 4: And I do want to make sure that we shout 352 00:21:53,960 --> 00:21:57,079 out our friends at the Innocents Project because this is 353 00:21:57,200 --> 00:22:01,000 one of their cases, and so to the folks at 354 00:22:01,039 --> 00:22:03,240 the Ennison's Project for doing the work that they did 355 00:22:03,279 --> 00:22:06,440 that ultimately led to the exoneration and to this settlement 356 00:22:06,559 --> 00:22:07,079 as well. 357 00:22:08,720 --> 00:22:11,440 Speaker 2: You're listening to Mind Over Murder, We'll be right back 358 00:22:11,680 --> 00:22:20,720 after this word from our sponsors. We're back here at 359 00:22:20,759 --> 00:22:26,319 Mindover Murder. Another case that we covered is the tragic 360 00:22:26,400 --> 00:22:30,160 murder of Vanessa Guillenn who was serving in the United 361 00:22:30,160 --> 00:22:33,720 States Army at Fort Hood, a troubled army base if 362 00:22:33,759 --> 00:22:37,640 there ever was one. Oh, and you may recall that 363 00:22:37,720 --> 00:22:44,200 Vanessa Guillenne disappeared in twenty twenty and later was found murdered. 364 00:22:45,000 --> 00:22:48,599 It turned out that she had been sexually harassed by 365 00:22:48,920 --> 00:22:53,160 a senior officer at Fort Hood. There was a very 366 00:22:53,359 --> 00:22:58,359 sad pattern at Fort Hood of sexual harassment and violence 367 00:22:58,480 --> 00:23:03,799 directed towards both women and men. Ultimately, her disappearance and 368 00:23:03,880 --> 00:23:08,079 murder launched a movement, and thousands of different service members 369 00:23:08,119 --> 00:23:11,880 came forward to describe what they had also experienced regarding 370 00:23:12,599 --> 00:23:16,319 rape and other sexual trauma in the military. The social 371 00:23:16,359 --> 00:23:20,319 media hashtag hashtag I Am Vanessa Wienn ended up being 372 00:23:20,359 --> 00:23:25,960 a very powerful tool. Her tragic murder and her case 373 00:23:26,359 --> 00:23:29,359 have ended up now being covered in a new Netflix 374 00:23:29,400 --> 00:23:34,200 documentary which is called Im Vanessic Wien. This Netflix documentary 375 00:23:34,240 --> 00:23:37,279 has ended up being popular and as a matter of fact, 376 00:23:37,319 --> 00:23:40,960 CBS News reports that I Am Vanessicquienn was among the 377 00:23:41,119 --> 00:23:44,039 top title searches in the United States, which is an 378 00:23:44,079 --> 00:23:47,839 indication that people here are interested in the case. I 379 00:23:47,880 --> 00:23:52,440 look forward to seeing the documentary. The way the story transpired, 380 00:23:52,680 --> 00:23:54,400 she was very close with her family. She was an 381 00:23:54,519 --> 00:23:57,599 Army private serving at Fort Hood, and then her family 382 00:23:57,680 --> 00:24:00,759 became very concerned because she spoke to them regularly, and 383 00:24:00,839 --> 00:24:03,160 then all of a sudden, she went radio silent and 384 00:24:03,279 --> 00:24:05,759 they couldn't figure out what had happened to her, so 385 00:24:05,880 --> 00:24:09,559 she was missing for two months. Approximately two months later, 386 00:24:09,640 --> 00:24:13,119 her body was discovered off base. She was killed by 387 00:24:13,279 --> 00:24:17,440 a fellow soldier named Aaron Robinson, who you may recall 388 00:24:17,559 --> 00:24:20,519 he had fled the base and then when the army 389 00:24:20,599 --> 00:24:24,039 investigators were closing in on him to ask him questions. 390 00:24:24,160 --> 00:24:27,759 He shot himself. He committed suicide while they were outside 391 00:24:27,960 --> 00:24:30,720 making their way into questioning him. And then it came 392 00:24:30,759 --> 00:24:35,440 out that second suspect, who was the wife of a 393 00:24:35,640 --> 00:24:39,160 former Fort Heard soldier, she was also involved in this 394 00:24:39,640 --> 00:24:46,039 gruesome cover up. She had helped defile Vanessa's body and 395 00:24:46,240 --> 00:24:50,000 bury her off base, and she knew where the body 396 00:24:50,119 --> 00:24:54,640 was buried. It was just a horrible case. It turned 397 00:24:54,680 --> 00:24:57,079 out that Fort Hood, which as I mentioned at the top, 398 00:24:57,279 --> 00:25:01,440 is a very troubled United States Army base with terrible management, 399 00:25:02,400 --> 00:25:07,000 had a pattern of this sexual harassment. She had gone 400 00:25:07,039 --> 00:25:11,200 to her superiors to report this man for sexually harassing her. 401 00:25:11,799 --> 00:25:15,319 They did nothing, so she ended up being incredibly frustrated 402 00:25:15,559 --> 00:25:19,960 by her whole experience. The only positive I think that 403 00:25:20,079 --> 00:25:23,119 might come out of this is that so many other 404 00:25:23,640 --> 00:25:26,839 women and men came forward and said that they had 405 00:25:27,000 --> 00:25:33,680 suffered similar abuses at military bases across the country. Her sister, 406 00:25:34,000 --> 00:25:38,240 Myra Guienne, her oldest sister, told CBS News that she 407 00:25:38,319 --> 00:25:40,839 had no idea the military had a history of problems 408 00:25:40,880 --> 00:25:45,680 with sexual assault and harassment. For what it's worth, I 409 00:25:45,839 --> 00:25:50,039 can say that in the United States Navy, during my 410 00:25:50,119 --> 00:25:54,680 sister Kathy Thomas's time on the Usslife's Spear, there were 411 00:25:54,720 --> 00:25:59,920 a series of rapes and sexual assaults aboard that submarine tender, 412 00:26:00,200 --> 00:26:05,559 which was homeported in Norfolk, Virginia. At that time, women 413 00:26:05,640 --> 00:26:08,319 could not serve aboard combat ships. They could only serve 414 00:26:08,440 --> 00:26:12,960 aboard support ships liked the Spear. So while women were 415 00:26:13,039 --> 00:26:17,680 not serving aboard aircraft carriers and destroyers and nuclear submarines 416 00:26:17,759 --> 00:26:21,519 and other frontline ships, they were serving aboard these support ships. 417 00:26:22,000 --> 00:26:24,559 And according to women that I've spoken to who served 418 00:26:24,599 --> 00:26:27,359 aboard the Spear, there were a series of rapes on 419 00:26:27,599 --> 00:26:32,079 board the Spear and other Navy ships in that support role, 420 00:26:32,440 --> 00:26:35,559 and the Navy did nothing, absolutely nothing. 421 00:26:36,920 --> 00:26:41,240 Speaker 4: As soon as I saw this article this morning, and 422 00:26:41,440 --> 00:26:43,519 keep in mind, it's a Saturday morning, and I'm a 423 00:26:43,599 --> 00:26:46,720 tired teacher. My eyes are barely open. I'm just mindlessly 424 00:26:46,839 --> 00:26:50,519 scrolling through my new speed this morning, and I saw that, 425 00:26:50,799 --> 00:26:52,960 and suddenly I was wide awake, and it was like, oh, 426 00:26:53,200 --> 00:26:55,200 I have to send this to Bill because it is 427 00:26:55,359 --> 00:26:59,640 checking so many boxes here. Not just the Vanessa Guienn case, 428 00:26:59,680 --> 00:27:03,039 which had covered at the time that it occurred, but also, 429 00:27:03,480 --> 00:27:07,519 I immediately went to Kathy because I know this is 430 00:27:07,880 --> 00:27:10,839 of major concern and it is something that we have 431 00:27:11,000 --> 00:27:15,359 looked into with regard to Kathy and any potential links 432 00:27:15,599 --> 00:27:18,920 to the US Navy and her murder. As soon as 433 00:27:18,960 --> 00:27:21,319 I saw this was like sending it to Bill. Here 434 00:27:21,400 --> 00:27:23,519 we go, this is something we need to see. And 435 00:27:23,640 --> 00:27:25,680 I know that this has rang a couple of bells 436 00:27:25,720 --> 00:27:26,440 with you this morning. 437 00:27:27,079 --> 00:27:30,359 Speaker 2: It did, And what saddens me is that the Naval 438 00:27:30,440 --> 00:27:34,400 Investigative Service now called the Naval Criminal Investigative Service, seemed 439 00:27:34,440 --> 00:27:38,799 to have plenty of resources to investigate my sister Kathy's sexuality, 440 00:27:39,160 --> 00:27:43,640 involving nine agents over a six month period in nineteen 441 00:27:43,680 --> 00:27:46,200 eighty four, two years prior to our death, but no 442 00:27:46,440 --> 00:27:52,799 resources to investigate sexual assaults, including brutal rapes aboard these ships. 443 00:27:53,720 --> 00:27:57,720 What apparently was a priority for them in the nineteen 444 00:27:57,880 --> 00:28:00,920 eighties was trying to find as man any Navy and 445 00:28:01,000 --> 00:28:04,440 Marine Corps personnel women to kick out of the service 446 00:28:04,640 --> 00:28:09,240 for being lesbian, but no resources whatsoever to look into 447 00:28:09,680 --> 00:28:13,680 sexual assaults. It's not beyond the realm of possibility that 448 00:28:13,799 --> 00:28:17,559 Kathy Thomas's Naval service has a strong tie in to 449 00:28:18,000 --> 00:28:21,440 her murder. She was murdered a couple of months after 450 00:28:21,880 --> 00:28:24,400 she left the United States Navy. I know we talk 451 00:28:24,440 --> 00:28:28,079 about the Colonial Parkway murders as being potentially related, and 452 00:28:28,200 --> 00:28:32,279 they are. You cannot rule out the possibility that Kathy 453 00:28:32,319 --> 00:28:36,359 Thomas's naval service led directly to her murder just a 454 00:28:36,640 --> 00:28:39,240 couple of months after she got out of the United 455 00:28:39,240 --> 00:28:43,319 States Navy. I've also recently discovered that Kathy died a 456 00:28:43,480 --> 00:28:48,920 few weeks after a major insurance policy had lapsed. There 457 00:28:49,039 --> 00:28:53,720 is a service person's insurance policy which pays out if 458 00:28:53,799 --> 00:28:56,880 you're killed while on active duty, and typically this would 459 00:28:56,880 --> 00:29:00,359 go to the parents or husband, wife partner of the 460 00:29:00,839 --> 00:29:05,920 service person, and that coverage lasts for ninety days after 461 00:29:06,160 --> 00:29:12,960 you leave active duty. Interestingly, Kathy's major insurance policy lapsed 462 00:29:13,319 --> 00:29:15,920 just a few weeks prior to her death, which I 463 00:29:16,039 --> 00:29:20,640 find to be a very interesting. I'll call it a coincidence, 464 00:29:20,680 --> 00:29:24,839 although I am so passed believing in coincidences in the 465 00:29:25,039 --> 00:29:30,039 Colonial Parkway murders at this point. In the Vanessa Guillen example, 466 00:29:30,480 --> 00:29:33,039 as I mentioned, worthwhile things that came out of this 467 00:29:33,240 --> 00:29:36,960 case were that other people stepped forward and told their 468 00:29:37,119 --> 00:29:41,279 stories and a United States Senator from New York, Kristen 469 00:29:41,359 --> 00:29:46,240 Gillibrand was very involved in this case. The Guienn family 470 00:29:46,359 --> 00:29:49,599 has filed a thirty five million dollar lawsuit against the 471 00:29:49,759 --> 00:29:53,920 United States government and that was filed in August. They 472 00:29:53,960 --> 00:29:58,319 have not reached a settlement yet. Natalie Kwom, who's their attorneys, 473 00:29:58,480 --> 00:30:01,559 is they're aggressively persu doing this and there's a lot 474 00:30:01,640 --> 00:30:05,519 of people that are supporting them. Her sister, Myra, whom 475 00:30:05,559 --> 00:30:07,759 I mentioned a moment ago, is actually thinking about running 476 00:30:07,799 --> 00:30:11,920 for Congress now, which is an interesting development, but she 477 00:30:12,000 --> 00:30:14,640 wants to be part of the solution, if you will. 478 00:30:14,799 --> 00:30:18,160 And they've established a foundation, the I Am Vanessa Guian Foundation. 479 00:30:18,759 --> 00:30:22,920 They're also supporting a new proposed law which I'm very 480 00:30:22,960 --> 00:30:25,240 interested in learning more about. We'll be doing some research 481 00:30:25,319 --> 00:30:29,559 on this one. It's called the Sexual Harassment Independent Investigations 482 00:30:29,599 --> 00:30:33,880 and Prosecutions Act or SHIP which IP and I've read 483 00:30:33,920 --> 00:30:35,319 a little bit about it, but I'd like to do 484 00:30:35,480 --> 00:30:40,880 more research. They're proposing that investigations of sexual harassment be 485 00:30:41,079 --> 00:30:44,880 moved outside the chain of command in the military because 486 00:30:45,000 --> 00:30:50,039 clearly there are breakdowns of how these investigations should be pursued. 487 00:30:50,920 --> 00:30:56,839 It's a little bit like asking an agency to investigate itself. Yes, yes, 488 00:30:57,119 --> 00:31:02,519 there's insufficient independence in terms of the the internal law enforcement. 489 00:31:02,640 --> 00:31:05,799 I put kind of air quotes around that agencies like 490 00:31:05,920 --> 00:31:11,079 the ncis from being able to properly investigate allegations of 491 00:31:11,240 --> 00:31:14,920 sexual harassment. I want to learn more about this, and 492 00:31:15,400 --> 00:31:18,440 Senator Jillbrand is very involved in that day. I've already 493 00:31:18,519 --> 00:31:22,799 successfully passed the I Am Vanessa Guienne Act, which became 494 00:31:22,920 --> 00:31:27,240 law on December twenty twenty one, so they've made significant strides. 495 00:31:28,039 --> 00:31:31,640 Were very supportive of what they're trying to do. Obviously, 496 00:31:31,720 --> 00:31:35,039 the Guienne family receiving a settlement in a case like 497 00:31:35,119 --> 00:31:37,759 this is not going to bring Vanessa back, and it's 498 00:31:37,880 --> 00:31:43,400 rough justice at best. It is sometimes how losses like 499 00:31:43,599 --> 00:31:47,960 that of Private Guienne are at least acknowledged by the 500 00:31:48,359 --> 00:31:53,920 persons responsible for failing to investigate her original allegations of 501 00:31:54,000 --> 00:31:55,960 sexual assault, which led directly to. 502 00:31:56,000 --> 00:32:00,480 Speaker 4: Her murder exactly. It's it is certainly not something that 503 00:32:00,960 --> 00:32:04,799 the family is doing for the money. It seems like 504 00:32:04,960 --> 00:32:08,079 it is the best response that you can hope for 505 00:32:08,440 --> 00:32:13,599 under the circumstances, as you said, of having a body acknowledge, hey, 506 00:32:13,839 --> 00:32:17,000 we screwed up here. We didn't investigate this properly. It's 507 00:32:17,559 --> 00:32:21,799 not an answer. It's definitely not that dreaded word that 508 00:32:21,880 --> 00:32:25,799 we both hate. Closure, and it's not exactly justice either. 509 00:32:26,640 --> 00:32:31,519 It is something it's acknowledgment at best. I think that 510 00:32:31,759 --> 00:32:34,240 in something like this and is the best that the 511 00:32:34,319 --> 00:32:36,559 family is going to be able to get from the government. 512 00:32:36,799 --> 00:32:39,839 And I love the fact that they are strongly advocating 513 00:32:39,920 --> 00:32:43,759 to make changes to laws and to work on the 514 00:32:43,799 --> 00:32:48,319 institution from the inside, because you're right, the idea of 515 00:32:48,759 --> 00:32:51,440 we're going to have the military police sexual harassment in 516 00:32:51,480 --> 00:32:52,480 the military. 517 00:32:53,240 --> 00:32:54,559 Speaker 2: Really it's not working. 518 00:32:55,160 --> 00:32:57,920 Speaker 4: It's we know it's not working. Of course, it's not working, 519 00:32:58,119 --> 00:33:00,920 As you said it. It goes back, of course to 520 00:33:01,039 --> 00:33:05,039 your sister's career, and i'd imagine this is something that 521 00:33:05,160 --> 00:33:07,960 has been endemic to the military for as long as 522 00:33:08,000 --> 00:33:10,559 the military has been in existence and men and women 523 00:33:10,640 --> 00:33:14,000 have worked together, probably even before then. I would imagine 524 00:33:14,000 --> 00:33:16,720 that there's been harassment of some kind or the other 525 00:33:17,000 --> 00:33:20,839 ever since the military's inception. Clearly, the military policing itself 526 00:33:20,960 --> 00:33:24,319 is not working. So I think that it's great that 527 00:33:24,480 --> 00:33:28,000 they are doing this kind of advocacy to make people aware. 528 00:33:28,480 --> 00:33:31,039 Not only should this not be happening. But the military 529 00:33:31,079 --> 00:33:35,000 should not be policing itself. It's just not effective. Clearly 530 00:33:35,079 --> 00:33:37,960 it's not. And whatever has gone wrong at Fort Hood, 531 00:33:38,000 --> 00:33:40,200 and I'm sure that there are a multitude of things, 532 00:33:40,279 --> 00:33:42,720 it's clearly proof of the fact that the military can't 533 00:33:42,799 --> 00:33:45,839 do its job policing itself. And I'm not trying to 534 00:33:45,880 --> 00:33:49,759 pick on the military here specifically and solely. I'm sure 535 00:33:49,799 --> 00:33:52,079 that there are any number of organizations who are trying 536 00:33:52,079 --> 00:33:55,119 to police themselves that should not be and are doing 537 00:33:55,160 --> 00:33:58,799 it ineffectively. But in this case, it's pretty clear things 538 00:33:58,839 --> 00:34:01,519 had gone wrong at Foot and nothing was being done 539 00:34:01,559 --> 00:34:01,880 about it. 540 00:34:02,559 --> 00:34:06,599 Speaker 2: I'll venture a guest here that millions of American women 541 00:34:07,000 --> 00:34:09,960 have served in the military over the years, and from 542 00:34:10,039 --> 00:34:13,119 what we've heard from those women and men as well, 543 00:34:13,480 --> 00:34:17,840 hundreds of thousands of them have likely suffered harassment in 544 00:34:17,920 --> 00:34:20,559 the various branches of the service. So I'm talking about 545 00:34:20,599 --> 00:34:25,360 the Army, the Navy, Air Force, Marines, and Coastguard. They've 546 00:34:25,639 --> 00:34:32,119 all had very serious sexual harassment scandals, and I think 547 00:34:32,199 --> 00:34:35,559 a very small sliver of those women that were harassed 548 00:34:35,920 --> 00:34:38,719 have ever come forward. I know a number of years 549 00:34:38,760 --> 00:34:43,920 ago when I made inquiries of about fifteen classmates of 550 00:34:44,039 --> 00:34:46,760 my sister Kathy's from the class of nineteen eighty one 551 00:34:46,800 --> 00:34:49,840 at the United States Naval Academy. A number of them 552 00:34:49,960 --> 00:34:53,599 told me that they had been brutally harassed while serving 553 00:34:53,800 --> 00:34:57,760 in the military. I think your point about asking the 554 00:34:57,960 --> 00:35:00,800 army or other branches of the service to police themselves 555 00:35:01,000 --> 00:35:05,000 is clearly not working. That needs to be fixed, which 556 00:35:05,079 --> 00:35:10,119 is why the proposed Sexual Harassment Independent Investigations and Prosecutions 557 00:35:10,159 --> 00:35:13,239 Act sounds like a step in the right direction, and 558 00:35:13,360 --> 00:35:15,800 I'm interested in learning more about the ship Act as 559 00:35:15,880 --> 00:35:16,559 we go forward. 560 00:35:17,599 --> 00:35:21,079 Speaker 4: We will continue to keep you all informed on these 561 00:35:21,239 --> 00:35:25,800 cases specifically, as well as other issues. We are pleased 562 00:35:26,199 --> 00:35:30,000 on the part of all of these families that they 563 00:35:30,159 --> 00:35:33,480 are being heard through the criminal justice system, the court 564 00:35:33,559 --> 00:35:37,280 system especially, and we will continue to keep you apprized 565 00:35:37,320 --> 00:35:38,880 of any and all updates. 566 00:35:40,519 --> 00:35:43,400 Speaker 2: Stay tuned as we move through the balance of the year. 567 00:35:43,440 --> 00:35:47,079 We've got some very interesting interviews coming up. We look 568 00:35:47,199 --> 00:35:51,159 forward to heading into the holiday season with all of 569 00:35:51,280 --> 00:35:54,039 you enjoying time at home and perhaps a little extra 570 00:35:54,159 --> 00:35:57,480 time to listen to your favorite podcasts, and we. 571 00:35:57,480 --> 00:36:00,280 Speaker 4: Would encourage you while you are listening to your favorite 572 00:36:00,320 --> 00:36:03,480 podcasts which of course we are one of. Please take 573 00:36:03,519 --> 00:36:06,119 the time to leave us ratings interviews on all of 574 00:36:06,199 --> 00:36:10,119 your various podcast channels. They do help other people to 575 00:36:10,320 --> 00:36:13,000 find us, and we are always looking for new listeners, 576 00:36:13,880 --> 00:36:15,960 so please do take the time to rate and review us. 577 00:36:16,280 --> 00:36:18,880 We really do appreciate it. That's going to do it 578 00:36:18,960 --> 00:36:20,760 for this episode of mind Over Murder. Thank you so 579 00:36:20,880 --> 00:36:23,400 much for listening. We'll see you next time. 580 00:36:33,360 --> 00:36:36,840 Speaker 1: Mind Over Murder is a production of Absolute Zero and 581 00:36:37,000 --> 00:36:38,400 Another Dog Productions. 582 00:36:39,000 --> 00:36:42,320 Speaker 2: Our executive producers are Bill Thomas and Kristin Dilley. 583 00:36:42,639 --> 00:36:45,079 Speaker 1: Our logo art is by Pamela Arnois. 584 00:36:45,719 --> 00:36:47,760 Speaker 2: Our theme music is by Kevin McLoud. 585 00:36:48,320 --> 00:36:52,199 Speaker 1: Mind Over Murder is distributed in partnership with Coral Space Media. 586 00:36:53,000 --> 00:36:56,079 Speaker 2: You can follow us on Facebook, Twitter, or Instagram. 587 00:36:56,360 --> 00:36:58,960 Speaker 1: You can also follow our page on the Colonial Parkway 588 00:36:59,039 --> 00:37:00,320 Murders on Faceboo. 589 00:37:00,079 --> 00:37:03,320 Speaker 2: Buck, and finally, you can follow Bill Thomas on Twitter 590 00:37:03,480 --> 00:37:05,199 at Bill Thomas five six. 591 00:37:05,800 --> 00:37:08,719 Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to mind Over Murder.