Speaker 1: You're listening to the Mind Over Murder podcast.
Speaker 2: My name is Bill Thomas. I'm a writer, consulting, producer,
and now podcaster. I am now trying to use my
experience as the brother of a murder victim to help
other victims of violent crime. I'm working on a book
on the unsolved Colonial Parkway murders and I'm the co
administrator of the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook group together with
Kristin Dilly.
Speaker 3: My name is Kristin Dilly. I'm a writer, a researcher,
a teacher, and a victim's advocate, as well as the
social media manager and co administrator for the Colonial Parkway
Murders Facebook page with my partner in crime, Bill Thomas.
Speaker 4: Welcome to Mind Ever Murder. I'm Kristin Dilly.
Speaker 2: And I'm Bill Thomas.
Speaker 4: And we were talking before we went on the air
about potential themes for today's show because I am an
English teacher and themes are things that I love, and
so we did settle on a theme for today's episode.
Speaker 2: We did what's the theme?
Speaker 4: We decided that we wanted to focus on the idea
of families taking legal action in the form of say,
lawsuits or various legal maneuvers in order to receive the
justice that they feel they deserve. How's that for a theme?
Did that work out?
Speaker 2: That worked out very well? Mws dilly.
Speaker 4: I keep trying to remind my students that theme isn't
just a word, it's a sentence. So I tried for
a sentence there.
Speaker 2: I'm not sure I completely follow.
Speaker 4: People will be like, oh, the theme is anger, and
I'm like, no, that's too broad, Like theme needs to
be a little bit more specific than that.
Speaker 2: This is a podcast where we talk about developments in
true crime. Yes, we interview a lot of people in
true crime, and there were some news stories that we
wanted to discuss in some significant cases. Then as we
were going through them this morning, a theme emerged.
Speaker 4: Yes, we realized there was a through line for all
of this, and that seems to be justice. Justice via
the court system as necessarily opposed to arrests in various
other things. So we have three specific stories that we
want to talk about that are related to crimes that
probably most of you are familiar with. There's certainly things
that we've talked about before and the way that these
families are seeking justice through the court system. So we'll
go ahead and start with one that I think if
you haven't heard of this case already, you've probably been
living under a rock for the last couple of years.
And that is the case that I think everybody refers
to it as the Adnan Sayed case, but right at
the moment, it is the Haman Lee case because Adnan
said his conviction has been vacated in the murder of Hamanly. Fortunately,
while we are very happy that Adnan is now free,
if it turns out that he has been run fully
convicted in jail for twenty five years, unfortunately, that does
mean that the Leaf family is left with no answers
as to who murdered Hayman Lee. And it also means
that they have had to go through this trauma a
second time of realizing, Okay, not only do we not
know who her murderer is, but they also were It
appears badly neglected by the criminal justice system as they
went through this process of very quickly vacating the conviction
of Adnan Sayad. And I know, Bill, this is something
that as a family member of a crime victim, this
is something that I know you feel very strongly about
the family's being treated fairly and correctly by the criminal
justice system.
Speaker 2: In this example, the decision of prosecutors to vacate Adnan
Sayed's sentence, which we totally support. Yeah, we were just
shocked at how offhandedly Haiman Lee's family was treated. It
was like it didn't even occur to them to involve
that Haim and Lee family in at least discussions or
notice that this was coming. Him and Lee's brother commented
that they received essentially no notice that this was going
to happen. It isn't I think that they were necessarily
going to object for them, they had been led to
believe that Adnan Sayed was responsible for her debt all
those years ago, and now they're being hit with new information,
which I think has led us to the truth, or
at least part of the truth. But to not even
give them a proper heads up that this was coming
and that mister Sayed's sentence had been vacated and that
he was going to be released from jail, even though
I think it was the right thing to do, it
was so badly handled. It didn't occur to anybody to
reach out to the victim's family to let them know
that this had happened.
Speaker 4: So I'm going to quote from a really excellent Rolling
Stone article here, and the quote comes from the Lee
family's attorney, Steve Kelly. Now him and Lee's family has
requested an evidentiary hearing with regard to Sayed's exoneration, which
again we support. We're glad of this. We just don't
want the Lee family to be left out on them.
The Lee family is claiming that prosecutors treated them in
a quote callous and unconstitutional manner end quote when they
were not given enough notice to appear at the hearing
of Sayed's conviction being vacated. I think it was something ridiculous,
like they had maybe thirty minutes notice for him. We're
talking about Hayes brother to get onto a zoom call
to appear at this hearing. When I heard that, I
was absolutely aghast. Rolling Stone continues to again, according to
the Lee family attorney Steve Kelly, that a public evidentiary
hearing in emotion to vacate is required and that allows
the family the chance to examine the evidence and raise questions.
That hearing was not held, and according to Steve Kelly,
their attorney, this quote shut the Lee family out from
any meaningful involvement or engagement with the record. End quote.
Speaker 2: We support the sentence of Adnan said being vacated. We
think that's the right thing. Why are they not even
thinking about the fact that the victim's family needs proper
notice and some level of participation. Even if they were
to say we think this is wrong, I'm not sure
they would necessarily say that, But I think most people,
myself included, would only want to see a guilty party
go to jail. I think it would be hard breaking
if you ever had any doubt that the person who
was charged in your loved ones murder, for example, was incorrect.
That's just compounding tragedy of your own loss by destroying
the life of someone who has perhaps had nothing to
do with your loved ones murder to not involve them
in the process. This begins to make me think of
the Epstein case down in Florida, where the victims received
no notice whatsoever that they've been sold down the river
by the Department.
Speaker 4: Of Justice exactly now. The attorney for the Lee family
was very quick to say they aren't looking to reverse
that decision, like they're not looking to have him rearrested.
They're not looking to put him back in jail. But
he did say quite eloquently all this family ever wanted
was answers and a voice. Today's actions robbed them of both,
and that is so important for these families to have.
And now Adnan sayed and his family have they have
had both of those things. They have had. They now
have answers as to what went wrong and why he
was wrongfully convicted. And Adnan has definitely had a voice
through the podcast Serial, through Rabbia Chawdrey's podcast Undisclosed, and
through every other podcast that has covered this case. There's
also been which is a lot. Yeah, absolutely, there's also
Robbia's book Odd Non Story. Adnan has definitely had his
story told, and we are very supportive of the fact
that he has been able to tell his story because
ultimately it led to this. But the Lee family, I
think has been very badly overlooked. And in fact, the
Baltimore States Attorney Marilyn Moseby defended her decision not to
give the Lee family more notice of Adnan's conviction being vacated,
She says, and this really made me angry. She notified
the family but could not wait for a response before
moving forward. She said, justice delayed is justice denied?
Speaker 2: Wow, that's pretty rich. I generally like ms Mosby and
I appreciate the work that she does, But to throw
that back in their face, Yeah, I'm sorry, that's really inappropriate.
Of course, we want to get mister Sayed out of
jail and the man appears to have suffered enough. What
do you mean not wait for a response? Her brother says,
they got thirty minutes noticed and this is outrageous, Like
they couldn't have contacted them. I don't even understand what
Marilyn Moseby's saying. They could have contacted them weeks before
and said, look, there's something coming here. Yes, you need
to prepare yourself for that. There's no thought whatsoever to
the victim and her face real and.
Speaker 4: We are familiar with that concept of justice delayed is
justice denied. Our friends over at Real Crime Profile have
said that for years and years. That is something that
we believe as well. Let them respond, give them another
half hour, an.
Speaker 2: Hour, two hours, come on this.
Speaker 4: It is really upset me that she would say that
to them.
Speaker 2: This thing, the release didn't come about in a half
an hour. I'm sorry, I'm not saying I'm going to
push back here, Kristin. I don't think a few hours
is enough. They were working on this for weeks, if
not months. They could have told the family this is coming,
we are working out the details, but you need to
prepare yourselves, and they didn't do that. And I don't
know what Marilyn Mosby is thinking. This is outrageous and
for her to throw back justice delayed is justice denied?
That's pretty rich.
Speaker 4: No, I agree, and it did bring up for me
a lot of questions about what are the families of
crime victims owed by the criminal justice system? How should
they be treated? And the answer is not like this.
They should not be treated like this. This was horrible
for the Lee family. Now, what is already a really
painful and horrible situation having your loved one murdered, is
only compounded by being treated this way by the criminal
justice system that A got it wrong in the first place,
and B is now running roughshod over their feelings.
Speaker 2: I'm just appalled, just for Clarity's sake, because somebody will
probably jump on us for y's what I just said
a moment ago. I want to be clear here, I'm
not implying that mister Siah should have stayed in jail
one minute longer than he did while waiting for answers.
Marilyn Moseby's office could have reached out to him and
Lee's family earlier. I don't want to say that Odnon
should be rotting in jail any longer than he did.
The whole thing is a complete miscarriage of justice. But
that agreement to release him from jail, which was the
right thing to do. They were working on that for weeks,
if not months. They could have let him and Lee's
family know. So I don't want to be misunderstood that
I'm implying that Odnon should be sitting in jail a minute,
an hour, or a day longer than he did. Of Course,
you want to get him out of jail as soon
as possible. Yeah, particularly when you realize we ignored other suspects.
We missed significant steps that should have been taken in
this investigation, which may have identified other potential suspects in
him and Lee's death. There's just no way around the
fact that the prosecutors and the decision to vacate those
decisions were percolating and working their way through the system.
Hayman Lef's family could have received appropriate notice, and I
think it's outrageous and I feel like they and even
she have been forgotten in all of this.
Speaker 4: You can't forget the victim in this case. It does
feel at times like the fervor in let's get on
non released, which again we are fully supportive of. We
don't want anybody to mistake us on that. It just
feels like the fervor means that Hayminley and her family
are left behind. It's got to be an awful feeling
for them. I do want to quote from the State's
Attorney's office, the State's Attorneys said, quote, our office truly
empathizes with the family of Haymanly, which is why all
along we've attempted to keep them apprized of each step
of the legal process. As we've already conveyed to the
victim's attorney, we remain committed to offering counseling services, detailing
our investigation, and keeping open lines of communication with this family,
who have clearly been re victimized by the misdeeds of
prior prosecutors. I call a little bit of bullshit on
some of that statement.
Speaker 2: I appreciate the sentiment, and I hope they are. I
do too, trying to provide the Lee family with the
resources that they mentioned, but proper notice, it just didn't
happen in this example. If the Lee family is to
be believed, then I believe them.
Speaker 4: No, I agree, And it sounds too like open lines
of communication with this family. I call bullshit on that
one too. Yeah, because, as you said, legal decisions like
this one take weeks, if not months. At the very least,
they could have done them the courtesy of saying, hey, something's.
Speaker 2: Coming, we're working on this. Steve Kelly, the attorney for
the Lee family, did make it very clear they're not
objects to odd Non's release from jail, not in the least.
They're just saying it would have been nice if somebody
had kept them informed. Yeah, and that clearly has not happened.
Speaker 4: They have questioned the decision to vacate based on the
evidence that is provided by the state. If you haven't
been apprized of the investigation and the intent to vacate
thus far, I can see why you would want to say,
can I see the evidence? Let me get a quote
from Rolling Stone here. Baltimore State's attorney Marilyn Moseby stated
that the evidence which allowed for the conviction to be
vacated was a Brady violation. We've all heard that term
on the part of the prosecution. They failed to turn
over evidence which showed alternative suspects. Steve Kelly argues the
physical evidence of those claims, such as two notes from
a prosecutor saying someone close to Sayed had a motive
for killing Lee and had threatened her, should be entered
into the court record. We want to see actual evidence,
Kelly tells Rolling Stone. You can't keep it secret and say,
trust us, you have to have an open public hearing
if you're going to take away a jury verdict that's
over twenty years old. They make a good point. The
reporting emphasizes a number of times they are not looking
free reversal of this. They're not looking to have Adnan
rearrested put back in jail, But they are saying we
want clarity, we want fairness, and we want to be
able to see what it is that caused this vacation
of the conviction to happen. And I can understand that
coming from the point of view of the family who
are now having to deal with the idea that they
don't actually know who killed Paymanly. I can see why
they would want transparency in the process. I do get it. Clearly.
There will be further developments as this case continues to
move forward, and we will keep you apprized on that
as decisions continue to be made. We also wanted to
speak about another interesting judicial outcome on a case that
we covered already earlier this year. In January, which feels
like one hundred billion years ago, was opposed to yearly twelve.
Speaker 2: You mean January twenty twenty two.
Speaker 4: Yeah, January twenty twenty two. It feels like we've been
in this year forever.
Speaker 2: It does seem like a million years ago.
Speaker 4: It really does. We covered in an episode titled Malcolm
X Exoneration. We covered the exoneration of Leile Islam and
Muhammad Azziz, who were exonerated after many years of being
wrongfully convicted for the murder of Malcolm X in New
York City in nineteen sixty five. If you missed our
coverage on that case, please do go back to our
January seventeenth, twenty twenty two episode and give it a listen.
And it does cover all of the information about the
wrongful conviction of these two men in Malcolm X's murder.
Only enough, New York City has decided to confer a
thirty six million dollars settlement on Mohammed Disease, who is
still alive, and the state of Khalili Islam, who is not.
So the sum will ultimately be split between mister Disease
and the Islam estate. The way that the settlement broke
down is New York City itself provided twenty six million
dollars of the settlement, and that's because there seems to
have been a bit of malfeasance on the part of
the New York Police Department, and then the State of
New York through in ten million dollars for the settlements.
And I'm going to go ahead in quote from David
Shanny's who is the lawyer for both men. These settlements
acknowledge Muhammed Disease in Khalili Slam's innocence and unconscionable violations
of the law by police and prosecuters sworn to uphold it.
The damage caused by wrongful convictions can never be undone,
but we owe it to history and to the people
whose lives were destroyed. To face the truth and try
to make amends. The payouts serve as another public maya
culpa for the combined forty two years that Dizies eighty
four in Islam, who died in two thousand and nine,
served in prison before prosecutors admitted to making a tragic mistake.
The pair was exonerated in November after a jury previously
found them guilty of participating in Malcolm X's nineteen sixty
five assassination on the stage of Manhattan's Autobahn Ballroom. And
that is from the New York Times, who did an
excellent article about this.
Speaker 2: What a tragedy that police and prosecutors in New York
got so much wrong here in the assassination of Malcolm
X and ended up ultimately charging the wrong people. There's
been a lot of reporting over the last couple of
years that the New York City Police Department and the
FBI had some advanced warning that there had been threats
made against Malcolm X's life. He was clearly a very
controversial figure and highly criticized by law enforcement, including the
NYPD and the FBI, as well as his own I
think rivals is the right word. Yes, within the movement
that were highly critical of him and actually were actively
making threats that he might be killed. It appears that
NYPD and the FBI did not do enough to convey
the seriousness of those threats to the Nation of Islam
and to Malcolm X's security detail.
Speaker 4: The settlement ultimately was reached and announced on October thirty first.
We are thrilled that there has been some restitution done
in this case for these two men who very clearly
suffered at the hands of the FBI and NYPD, and
we're sent to jail for a crime they just did
not commit. So we do continue to wish them well,
both mister Aziz who is still alive and mister Islam's
family who continues to deal with the fallout from this.
We are pleased that this has worked out in their favor.
Speaker 2: Sadly, in terms of the pursuit of justice, fifty seven
years have transpired since Malcolm X was murdered, and many
of the people involved have passed on, and of course,
as we've seen in the Colonial Parkway murders, at thirty
six year mark, it becomes increasingly challenging to get to
the truth of something which has a lot of layers
to it. Memories have faded, people have passed, so it's
difficult to see that we would ever get to the
bottom of what truly happened that day at the Audubon Ballroom.
Speaker 4: And I do want to make sure that we shout
out our friends at the Innocents Project because this is
one of their cases, and so to the folks at
the Ennison's Project for doing the work that they did
that ultimately led to the exoneration and to this settlement
as well.
Speaker 2: You're listening to Mind Over Murder, We'll be right back
after this word from our sponsors. We're back here at
Mindover Murder. Another case that we covered is the tragic
murder of Vanessa Guillenn who was serving in the United
States Army at Fort Hood, a troubled army base if
there ever was one. Oh, and you may recall that
Vanessa Guillenne disappeared in twenty twenty and later was found murdered.
It turned out that she had been sexually harassed by
a senior officer at Fort Hood. There was a very
sad pattern at Fort Hood of sexual harassment and violence
directed towards both women and men. Ultimately, her disappearance and
murder launched a movement, and thousands of different service members
came forward to describe what they had also experienced regarding
rape and other sexual trauma in the military. The social
media hashtag hashtag I Am Vanessa Wienn ended up being
a very powerful tool. Her tragic murder and her case
have ended up now being covered in a new Netflix
documentary which is called Im Vanessic Wien. This Netflix documentary
has ended up being popular and as a matter of fact,
CBS News reports that I Am Vanessicquienn was among the
top title searches in the United States, which is an
indication that people here are interested in the case. I
look forward to seeing the documentary. The way the story transpired,
she was very close with her family. She was an
Army private serving at Fort Hood, and then her family
became very concerned because she spoke to them regularly, and
then all of a sudden, she went radio silent and
they couldn't figure out what had happened to her, so
she was missing for two months. Approximately two months later,
her body was discovered off base. She was killed by
a fellow soldier named Aaron Robinson, who you may recall
he had fled the base and then when the army
investigators were closing in on him to ask him questions.
He shot himself. He committed suicide while they were outside
making their way into questioning him. And then it came
out that second suspect, who was the wife of a
former Fort Heard soldier, she was also involved in this
gruesome cover up. She had helped defile Vanessa's body and
bury her off base, and she knew where the body
was buried. It was just a horrible case. It turned
out that Fort Hood, which as I mentioned at the top,
is a very troubled United States Army base with terrible management,
had a pattern of this sexual harassment. She had gone
to her superiors to report this man for sexually harassing her.
They did nothing, so she ended up being incredibly frustrated
by her whole experience. The only positive I think that
might come out of this is that so many other
women and men came forward and said that they had
suffered similar abuses at military bases across the country. Her sister,
Myra Guienne, her oldest sister, told CBS News that she
had no idea the military had a history of problems
with sexual assault and harassment. For what it's worth, I
can say that in the United States Navy, during my
sister Kathy Thomas's time on the Usslife's Spear, there were
a series of rapes and sexual assaults aboard that submarine tender,
which was homeported in Norfolk, Virginia. At that time, women
could not serve aboard combat ships. They could only serve
aboard support ships liked the Spear. So while women were
not serving aboard aircraft carriers and destroyers and nuclear submarines
and other frontline ships, they were serving aboard these support ships.
And according to women that I've spoken to who served
aboard the Spear, there were a series of rapes on
board the Spear and other Navy ships in that support role,
and the Navy did nothing, absolutely nothing.
Speaker 4: As soon as I saw this article this morning, and
keep in mind, it's a Saturday morning, and I'm a
tired teacher. My eyes are barely open. I'm just mindlessly
scrolling through my new speed this morning, and I saw that,
and suddenly I was wide awake, and it was like, oh,
I have to send this to Bill because it is
checking so many boxes here. Not just the Vanessa Guienn case,
which had covered at the time that it occurred, but also,
I immediately went to Kathy because I know this is
of major concern and it is something that we have
looked into with regard to Kathy and any potential links
to the US Navy and her murder. As soon as
I saw this was like sending it to Bill. Here
we go, this is something we need to see. And
I know that this has rang a couple of bells
with you this morning.
Speaker 2: It did, And what saddens me is that the Naval
Investigative Service now called the Naval Criminal Investigative Service, seemed
to have plenty of resources to investigate my sister Kathy's sexuality,
involving nine agents over a six month period in nineteen
eighty four, two years prior to our death, but no
resources to investigate sexual assaults, including brutal rapes aboard these ships.
What apparently was a priority for them in the nineteen
eighties was trying to find as man any Navy and
Marine Corps personnel women to kick out of the service
for being lesbian, but no resources whatsoever to look into
sexual assaults. It's not beyond the realm of possibility that
Kathy Thomas's Naval service has a strong tie in to
her murder. She was murdered a couple of months after
she left the United States Navy. I know we talk
about the Colonial Parkway murders as being potentially related, and
they are. You cannot rule out the possibility that Kathy
Thomas's naval service led directly to her murder just a
couple of months after she got out of the United
States Navy. I've also recently discovered that Kathy died a
few weeks after a major insurance policy had lapsed. There
is a service person's insurance policy which pays out if
you're killed while on active duty, and typically this would
go to the parents or husband, wife partner of the
service person, and that coverage lasts for ninety days after
you leave active duty. Interestingly, Kathy's major insurance policy lapsed
just a few weeks prior to her death, which I
find to be a very interesting. I'll call it a coincidence,
although I am so passed believing in coincidences in the
Colonial Parkway murders at this point. In the Vanessa Guillen example,
as I mentioned, worthwhile things that came out of this
case were that other people stepped forward and told their
stories and a United States Senator from New York, Kristen
Gillibrand was very involved in this case. The Guienn family
has filed a thirty five million dollar lawsuit against the
United States government and that was filed in August. They
have not reached a settlement yet. Natalie Kwom, who's their attorneys,
is they're aggressively persu doing this and there's a lot
of people that are supporting them. Her sister, Myra, whom
I mentioned a moment ago, is actually thinking about running
for Congress now, which is an interesting development, but she
wants to be part of the solution, if you will.
And they've established a foundation, the I Am Vanessa Guian Foundation.
They're also supporting a new proposed law which I'm very
interested in learning more about. We'll be doing some research
on this one. It's called the Sexual Harassment Independent Investigations
and Prosecutions Act or SHIP which IP and I've read
a little bit about it, but I'd like to do
more research. They're proposing that investigations of sexual harassment be
moved outside the chain of command in the military because
clearly there are breakdowns of how these investigations should be pursued.
It's a little bit like asking an agency to investigate itself. Yes, yes,
there's insufficient independence in terms of the the internal law enforcement.
I put kind of air quotes around that agencies like
the ncis from being able to properly investigate allegations of
sexual harassment. I want to learn more about this, and
Senator Jillbrand is very involved in that day. I've already
successfully passed the I Am Vanessa Guienne Act, which became
law on December twenty twenty one, so they've made significant strides.
Were very supportive of what they're trying to do. Obviously,
the Guienne family receiving a settlement in a case like
this is not going to bring Vanessa back, and it's
rough justice at best. It is sometimes how losses like
that of Private Guienne are at least acknowledged by the
persons responsible for failing to investigate her original allegations of
sexual assault, which led directly to.
Speaker 4: Her murder exactly. It's it is certainly not something that
the family is doing for the money. It seems like
it is the best response that you can hope for
under the circumstances, as you said, of having a body acknowledge, hey,
we screwed up here. We didn't investigate this properly. It's
not an answer. It's definitely not that dreaded word that
we both hate. Closure, and it's not exactly justice either.
It is something it's acknowledgment at best. I think that
in something like this and is the best that the
family is going to be able to get from the government.
And I love the fact that they are strongly advocating
to make changes to laws and to work on the
institution from the inside, because you're right, the idea of
we're going to have the military police sexual harassment in
the military.
Speaker 2: Really it's not working.
Speaker 4: It's we know it's not working. Of course, it's not working,
As you said it. It goes back, of course to
your sister's career, and i'd imagine this is something that
has been endemic to the military for as long as
the military has been in existence and men and women
have worked together, probably even before then. I would imagine
that there's been harassment of some kind or the other
ever since the military's inception. Clearly, the military policing itself
is not working. So I think that it's great that
they are doing this kind of advocacy to make people aware.
Not only should this not be happening. But the military
should not be policing itself. It's just not effective. Clearly
it's not. And whatever has gone wrong at Fort Hood,
and I'm sure that there are a multitude of things,
it's clearly proof of the fact that the military can't
do its job policing itself. And I'm not trying to
pick on the military here specifically and solely. I'm sure
that there are any number of organizations who are trying
to police themselves that should not be and are doing
it ineffectively. But in this case, it's pretty clear things
had gone wrong at Foot and nothing was being done
about it.
Speaker 2: I'll venture a guest here that millions of American women
have served in the military over the years, and from
what we've heard from those women and men as well,
hundreds of thousands of them have likely suffered harassment in
the various branches of the service. So I'm talking about
the Army, the Navy, Air Force, Marines, and Coastguard. They've
all had very serious sexual harassment scandals, and I think
a very small sliver of those women that were harassed
have ever come forward. I know a number of years
ago when I made inquiries of about fifteen classmates of
my sister Kathy's from the class of nineteen eighty one
at the United States Naval Academy. A number of them
told me that they had been brutally harassed while serving
in the military. I think your point about asking the
army or other branches of the service to police themselves
is clearly not working. That needs to be fixed, which
is why the proposed Sexual Harassment Independent Investigations and Prosecutions
Act sounds like a step in the right direction, and
I'm interested in learning more about the ship Act as
we go forward.
Speaker 4: We will continue to keep you all informed on these
cases specifically, as well as other issues. We are pleased
on the part of all of these families that they
are being heard through the criminal justice system, the court
system especially, and we will continue to keep you apprized
of any and all updates.
Speaker 2: Stay tuned as we move through the balance of the year.
We've got some very interesting interviews coming up. We look
forward to heading into the holiday season with all of
you enjoying time at home and perhaps a little extra
time to listen to your favorite podcasts, and we.
Speaker 4: Would encourage you while you are listening to your favorite
podcasts which of course we are one of. Please take
the time to leave us ratings interviews on all of
your various podcast channels. They do help other people to
find us, and we are always looking for new listeners,
so please do take the time to rate and review us.
We really do appreciate it. That's going to do it
for this episode of mind Over Murder. Thank you so
much for listening. We'll see you next time.
Speaker 1: Mind Over Murder is a production of Absolute Zero and
Another Dog Productions.
Speaker 2: Our executive producers are Bill Thomas and Kristin Dilley.
Speaker 1: Our logo art is by Pamela Arnois.
Speaker 2: Our theme music is by Kevin McLoud.
Speaker 1: Mind Over Murder is distributed in partnership with Coral Space Media.
Speaker 2: You can follow us on Facebook, Twitter, or Instagram.
Speaker 1: You can also follow our page on the Colonial Parkway
Murders on Faceboo.
Speaker 2: Buck, and finally, you can follow Bill Thomas on Twitter
at Bill Thomas five six.
Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to mind Over Murder.