Speaker 1: And we are back with another edition of the Federalist
Speaker 1: Radio Hour. I'm Matt Kittle, Senior Elections correspondent at The
Speaker 1: Federalist and your experienced Shirpa on today's quest for Knowledge.
Speaker 1: As always, you can email the show at radio at
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Speaker 1: of course to the premium version of our website as well.
Speaker 1: Our guest today is Mark Skousen. He is the eighth generation.
Speaker 1: I believe we'll get the full details on this, but
Speaker 1: he is a descendant of one of the greatest Americans,
Speaker 1: one of the greatest founders of this great republic, and
Speaker 1: Mark would argue the greatest American. Indeed, he does so
Speaker 1: in his new book of the same title, The Greatest
Speaker 1: American History's Most Versatile Genius, An Exploration of the life
Speaker 1: and legacy of Benjamin Franklin. Mark, thank you so much
Speaker 1: for joining us on this edition of the Federalist Radio Hour.
Speaker 2: Man, it's a pleasure to talk about my favorite ancestor.
Speaker 1: I would say, so, you know, I think about the
Speaker 1: Kittle family tree, and we haven't fully explored it, but
Speaker 1: you know, we have explored it enough to be concerned
Speaker 1: about where it ultimatelys. But you have quite a descendant
Speaker 1: in Benjamin Franklin. Let's begin there. That has to be
Speaker 1: something that your family absolutely cherishes and certainly talks about it.
Speaker 1: Get togethers.
Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean, this was a long standing tradition in
Speaker 2: our family that we were somehow related to Benjamin Franklin.
Speaker 2: It was through my mother's side, who was from Pennsylvania,
Speaker 2: and going back we didn't know how many generations, but
Speaker 2: we just knew that we were related somehow. So my
Speaker 2: wife and I decided to do some genealogy work in
Speaker 2: the seventies, and we struggled because there was a missing
Speaker 2: link for our connection. But we discovered there was a
Speaker 2: private will that was published that we found in the
Speaker 2: American Philosophical Society that Franklin had established, and the story
Speaker 2: is of Ben Franklin's grandson, Lewis Bates, Sr. Who had
Speaker 2: two natural children. It said in his last will he
Speaker 2: gave he identified two natural children, now natural children meant
Speaker 2: back then illegitimate, and in fact one of them is
Speaker 2: Lewis Bates Junior. And that was the missing link, and
Speaker 2: so we were able to tie together our entire eight generations,
Speaker 2: which was really quite a cool discovery, and we broadcast
Speaker 2: it to all our family members that we actually found
Speaker 2: exactly how we were related. But I thought it was
Speaker 2: ironic because Franklin is actually famous for having an illegitimate son, William,
Speaker 2: and this tradition continued because William also had an illegitimate child,
Speaker 2: and we see Lewis Bates, the grandchild, also had a
Speaker 2: legitimate illegitimate child, So kind of reflective on Franklin's that
Speaker 2: old tradition that he was. I call him a ladies man.
Speaker 2: Others would say a womanizer, but he he actually one
Speaker 2: of the things I liked about Franklin is that he's
Speaker 2: very modern in the sense that he respected women's rights
Speaker 2: and thought that they were equal to him. And he
Speaker 2: had many wonderful intellectual, not just social relationships with women,
Speaker 2: both in America and in France.
Speaker 1: He was a bit of a lothario, as the history dictates,
Speaker 1: as we have learned over the years, that is a
Speaker 1: It is interesting to me. That is a long line
Speaker 1: of distinguished illegitimacy, I have to say, And it's that's
Speaker 1: the interesting point, because this is, you know, this is
Speaker 1: a complicated man. This is a Renaissance man, certainly, a
Speaker 1: man who had dalliences, obviously a man who was not
Speaker 1: all that concerned.
Speaker 3: About protection, although the idea of that in the eighteenth
Speaker 3: century was complicated as well.
Speaker 1: But what to you makes Benjamin Franklin? There are so
Speaker 1: many facets here? What makes him the greatest American? Standing
Speaker 1: against Americans like Thomas Jefferson and George Washington and a
Speaker 1: whole line of signers of the Declaration of Independence and
Speaker 1: those who engaged at the Continental Conventions.
Speaker 2: Well, there are certainly many great men, and our founding fathers,
Speaker 2: founding mothers, if you will, I mean, they all played
Speaker 2: a very significant role and were great in a great generation.
Speaker 2: There's no question about that. What distinguishes Franklin from all
Speaker 2: the others, including Thomas Jefferson, is the sub title of
Speaker 2: the book. So the title is the Greatest American? Why?
Speaker 2: Because he's history's most versatile genius. By that wey I
Speaker 2: came up with a list of twenty two careers that Franklin,
Speaker 2: at one time or another had professionally and really was
Speaker 2: a remarkable came up with I mean, printer, postmaster, diplomat, governor, author, humorist, inventor, scientist,
Speaker 2: financial guru, fundraiser, military leader, delegate or legislator, clerk, economist,
Speaker 2: land speculator, club president, musician, city planner, Justice of the peace, banker,
Speaker 2: and university founder. I mean, when you come up with
Speaker 2: a list like that, you say, my gosh, that's I mean.
Speaker 2: Thomas Jefferson would be the second closest because he he
Speaker 2: had some eclectic interests as well, but you can only
Speaker 2: list four or five of careers that he had compared
Speaker 2: to twenty two for Ben Franklin. So these titles are
Speaker 2: not from me. They are from historians who have written
Speaker 2: that Franklin was in so many ways advanced for his
Speaker 2: generation and virtually all generations. So if you wanted to
Speaker 2: compare them, maybe Leonardo da Vinci or somebody like that
Speaker 2: in Europe would have these eclectic interests. But you know,
Speaker 2: you look at some great Americans like Thomas Edison or
Speaker 2: Elon Musk and what have you, they still have a
Speaker 2: hard time comparing comparing them to the incredible interests that
Speaker 2: Franklin had. And he was self educated. You know, here's
Speaker 2: a man who lived the American dream, went from poverty
Speaker 2: to riches in his lifetime through his own ability and
Speaker 2: skills and willingness to be self educated.
Speaker 1: Yeah, no doubt about it. And you know, as you
Speaker 1: note an extremely busy, busy man, it gets us back
Speaker 1: to our original point. How the hell did he have
Speaker 1: time for his talliences? This guy was doing so much,
Speaker 1: you know, the inventor portion of alone is intriguing enough,
Speaker 1: is time consuming enough for Benjamin Franklin, who was, at
Speaker 1: his core, you know, a very very curious man.
Speaker 2: He was.
Speaker 1: A scientific mind of his times, but also at his
Speaker 1: core he was an entrepreneur. And you, as an economist,
Speaker 1: must very much appreciate that aspect of Benjamin Franklin.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, I had a number of blurbs done on
Speaker 2: the book, and one was by John Mackie, the former
Speaker 2: CEO and founder of Whole Food's Market, and he wrote
Speaker 2: a book called conscious Capitalism, and what he meant by
Speaker 2: that was that, in the case of Franklin, he was
Speaker 2: conscientiously trying to fulfill the needs of his consumers and
Speaker 2: did so well that he was able to retire at
Speaker 2: age forty two. But then instead of just collecting his
Speaker 2: interest and dividends, which in play golf all day like
Speaker 2: a lot of wealthy people do today, he engaged in
Speaker 2: civic duties. He established the first hospital, the first library,
Speaker 2: the established the University of Pennsylvania. He engaged in improving
Speaker 2: the city of Philadelphia, and then he went on to
Speaker 2: be the colonial agent represent his colony and four other
Speaker 2: colonies in London. Then he became ambassador to France, the
Speaker 2: first ambassador, came back and was a governor of the
Speaker 2: first governor of Pennsylvania, and then went on to be
Speaker 2: the going a delegate to the Constitutional Convention. So he
Speaker 2: had a remarkable career. But you know, he was a
Speaker 2: little bit that people said that he didn't really say much.
Speaker 2: He didn't speak that much at the Constitutional Convention or
Speaker 2: the Declaration of Independence. He only made one change to
Speaker 2: the Declaration of Independence. Let's see if you and your
Speaker 2: audience can figure this out. So fill in the blank.
Speaker 2: We hold these truths to.
Speaker 1: Be self evident, of course.
Speaker 2: Oh but that is not the Thomas Jefferson said, sacred
Speaker 2: and undeniable. We hold these two sacred and undeniable. Ekland,
Speaker 2: being a secular humanist, with his left hand, scratched out
Speaker 2: the words sacred and undoniowa and put above it self evident.
Speaker 1: Well, he was, after all, originally an editor and through
Speaker 1: his life he was an editor, and that like it
Speaker 1: reminds me of Abraham Lincoln, you know, and how he
Speaker 1: approached his you know, first inaugural address and the flourishes,
Speaker 1: the beautiful flourishes as they were put in by Seward,
Speaker 1: but nonetheless they were more flowery than they were ultimately poetic.
Speaker 1: And Abraham Lincoln, same kind of thing. But Benjamin Franklin,
Speaker 1: you know, must have looked at that from his perspective
Speaker 1: as well, but also from the perspective of a longtime
Speaker 1: newspaper guy.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think so. Although I think he was making
Speaker 2: just an editorial reduction from sacred and undeniable to self evident,
Speaker 2: but also making a point of his religious skepticism at
Speaker 2: the time. I will say one of the things I
Speaker 2: learned in writing this book, The Greatest American, is that
Speaker 2: Franklin's views on religion actually changed because he was a skeptic.
Speaker 2: He was a deist, I mean, he believed in God,
Speaker 2: but did not particularly He was not a churchgoer. He
Speaker 2: had his own liturgy. He was considered a skeptic an heretic,
Speaker 2: even by John Adams and others who complained that he
Speaker 2: didn't attend church on a regular basis. Nevertheless, at the
Speaker 2: end of his life he changed his views from adist
Speaker 2: to an active theist because of what he witnessed, where
Speaker 2: God intervened over and over again to assure the Americans
Speaker 2: they would win this revolution against the greatest military in
Speaker 2: the world, the British. So Branklin said at the end
Speaker 2: of his life that you know, God were governed in
Speaker 2: the affairs of man, and he asked that we have
Speaker 2: prayers in the Constitutional Convention. So it was quite a
Speaker 2: remarkable change in the attitude. So I actually think that Franklin,
Speaker 2: if he had to do it over again, would keep
Speaker 2: Thomas Jefferson's own phraseology, we hold these Jews to be
Speaker 2: sacred and undeniable. I think it's a more powerful phrase
Speaker 2: than self evident.
Speaker 1: I do too, I think it and certainly captures the
Speaker 1: mood and the moment at the time, one of defiance
Speaker 1: but also one of humility. Knowing that this founding, this
Speaker 1: new Nason country, was going to need all the help
Speaker 1: it could possibly get and was a long way off
Speaker 1: from fulfilling that assistance. They were going to need something
Speaker 1: much greater than themselves, and I think the founding fathers
Speaker 1: understood that. So Franklin goes from God is clockmaker to
Speaker 1: God as though, as you know, the Supreme being interested
Speaker 1: in the affairs of men. How did he begin his life,
Speaker 1: because he certainly didn't begin his life as the Benjamin Franklin.
Speaker 1: We know he didn't begin it in Philadelphia that he
Speaker 1: is so associated with.
Speaker 2: Yeah, he got started in Boston. He was born in
Speaker 2: Boston from a family of thirteen fifteen seventeen children, and
Speaker 2: that was from two wives, and he was with the
Speaker 2: second wife, so that he was a tense child of
Speaker 2: several generations. It's kind of an interesting story. But he
Speaker 2: basically very poor and became an apprentice to his older brother,
Speaker 2: James in a in a publication at the time, and
Speaker 2: he had falling out with his older brother and he
Speaker 2: didn't want to stick around for the seven year apprentice,
Speaker 2: so he ran away, and he poverty stricken, ran away
Speaker 2: and ended up in Philadelphia, and there he pursued printing
Speaker 2: again and became very successful at it, to the point
Speaker 2: where when he returned several years later to see the family,
Speaker 2: who was well dressed, he had gold coins in his pockets.
Speaker 2: James was extremely envious of his success, but Franklin was
Speaker 2: self educated and he only had a couple a few
Speaker 2: years of formal education and was a voracious readers. Is
Speaker 2: very much a key point that he always believed in
Speaker 2: the value of the printed word and became very much
Speaker 2: a part of that. So he was very successful, as
Speaker 2: it's kind of like the publisher of the New York
Speaker 2: Times in its day. The Pennsylvania Gazette was the most
Speaker 2: successful newspaper of its time. And then he put out
Speaker 2: the Almanac as well, which was an annual of publication
Speaker 2: that had all these great sayings and that you like
Speaker 2: a penny saved as a penny earned. This sort of
Speaker 2: thing became very popular, and he franchised his newspaper around
Speaker 2: the country, so he was able to retire at age
Speaker 2: forty two, and then pursued these civic interests, including being
Speaker 2: a military leader and a clerk for the the Pennsylvania Legislature.
Speaker 2: He was really quite an interesting person. He helped establish
Speaker 2: the Negro school in the area an early time period,
Speaker 2: discovered that blacks were just as smart as whites, and
Speaker 2: so his prejudice declined. One of the things I point
Speaker 2: out in this book The Greatest American, is that Franklin
Speaker 2: he owned slaves for a couple of years, a couple
Speaker 2: of slaves, not many, not like Jefferson or Washington, but
Speaker 2: he eventually gave up on slavery and realized that this
Speaker 2: was a major mark on our history. And he became
Speaker 2: the president of the first Pennsylvania Society to abolish slavery.
Speaker 2: So it's nice to see a founding father whose views
Speaker 2: changed over time and wasn't stuck in the past.
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Speaker 1: Yes, and there certainly are some founding members who who
Speaker 1: went through such changes, but not many. Again, we have
Speaker 1: to look at history and you know, as a matter
Speaker 1: of people of their times, and that's what Franklin was.
Speaker 1: But obviously over a very long life his ideas about
Speaker 1: these basic tenant tenants of of the of humanity and
Speaker 1: of self governance, they they evolved with all of that.
Speaker 1: He retired at forty two. In that time period he
Speaker 1: was considered an older man, was he not? So he
Speaker 1: has he has all of this wealth that he secrued.
Speaker 1: He really is the story of, you know, of the
Speaker 1: American dream, the self made man. Does he at this
Speaker 1: time then he has the ability to pursue all of
Speaker 1: these different things. One of those interest lifelong had been
Speaker 1: in the field of the sciences, particularly in invention. How
Speaker 1: does he get to that point where you know, he
Speaker 1: becomes such a you know, a powerful part of where
Speaker 1: we are today, how we are talking today in this
Speaker 1: zoom call through the power of electricity.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's interesting because he was really the first scientific American,
Speaker 2: if we can use that term. In fact, there's a
Speaker 2: book by that title, the First Scientific America, and it
Speaker 2: is the story of Benjamin Franklin his scientific contributions and
Speaker 2: starting with the Franklin Stowe but also the discovery that
Speaker 2: lightning was electricity, and he came up with certain words
Speaker 2: like positive and negative reaction, the battery. The term battery
Speaker 2: is his. He's considered one of the top scientists of
Speaker 2: his age, and he became so famous he won the
Speaker 2: Copley Medal in Britain, and when he went to France
Speaker 2: as ambassador, he was hailed as one of the great
Speaker 2: scientists of his age and was quite famous because of it.
Speaker 2: Bifocal invention, the stream of you know, going back. He
Speaker 2: went back and forth eight times across the seas, so
Speaker 2: he was not just enjoying the fair weather and so forth,
Speaker 2: but was noticing the gulf stream, how it was faster
Speaker 2: to go one way than the other. Things like that
Speaker 2: were really remarkable inventions. And he never patented any of
Speaker 2: his inventions, which is interesting because he could have made
Speaker 2: considerable amount of money, but he thought, no, this is
Speaker 2: It's kind of like Elon Musk who says, I don't
Speaker 2: patent any of my inventions and breakthroughs in Tesla. This
Speaker 2: is something we want everybody to use. And Franklin had
Speaker 2: a very liberal position when it came to his patents.
Speaker 1: Such an amazing departure from where we are in America
Speaker 1: and believe me, Americans inventors have every right in the
Speaker 1: world to claim their intellectual property. We, of course, these days,
Speaker 1: have experienced a barrage of assaults in that intellectual property
Speaker 1: from one nation in particular. But it happens at every turn.
Speaker 1: Franklin said, I give this the science. He also gave
Speaker 1: himself eventually to revolution. He eventually gave himself to the
Speaker 1: formation the foundation of a new nation conceived in liberty
Speaker 1: and self governance. But he wasn't always He didn't begin
Speaker 1: a revolutionary, did he.
Speaker 2: No, that's correct, he was. He considered himself a British citizen.
Speaker 2: And when he was colonial agent in Britain, he loved England,
Speaker 2: he loved Scotland. He just he enjoyed it far more
Speaker 2: than his own country. When he went back to Pennsylvania,
Speaker 2: he said, oh see, this is just this is nothing
Speaker 2: compared to the buzz that you feel when you're in
Speaker 2: a big city like London. And then when he went
Speaker 2: to Paris, he fell in love with Paris. And he
Speaker 2: was very much a global citizen in many ways. In fact,
Speaker 2: one time he said this following statement. And you can
Speaker 2: contrast this with the attitude that our current president has
Speaker 2: so Franklin said, our cause is the cause of all mankind.
Speaker 2: God grant us not only the love of liberty, but
Speaker 2: a thorough knowledge of the rights of man may pervade
Speaker 2: all nations of the earth, so that a philosopher may
Speaker 2: set his foot anywhere on its surface and say, this
Speaker 2: is my country. He was a very much globalist. He
Speaker 2: was an advocate, like Adam Smith, of free trade. He
Speaker 2: said no nation was ever ruined by trade, So he
Speaker 2: would have even though he was a diplomat, and he
Speaker 2: did engage and compromise, and he didn't believe in fair trade,
Speaker 2: not just free trade. So there are some elements that
Speaker 2: we can relate to. But I admire him for his
Speaker 2: attitude toward foreigners. He was not xenophobic like many of
Speaker 2: our leaders are today. I really admire Franklin for his
Speaker 2: love of country and love of humanity.
Speaker 1: When did he become sold on the revolution? Because you know,
Speaker 1: that's the interesting thing about how we got to the
Speaker 1: Revolutionary War. As Franklin, you know, John Adams, George Washington,
Speaker 1: all of these others considered themselves citizens of England until
Speaker 1: that was no longer tenable, until that was no longer
Speaker 1: It was just such a corrosive and toxic relationship, to
Speaker 1: put it in the parlance of the day, that it
Speaker 1: could no longer continue. But Franklin didn't he argue for
Speaker 1: mediation and moderation early on.
Speaker 2: Yes, in fact, he didn't really fight the Stamp Act initially,
Speaker 2: and he was heavily criticized for this, And then he
Speaker 2: realized that he made a major blunder, so he changed
Speaker 2: rather quickly and fought for the abolition of the Stamp
Speaker 2: Act and was successful in doing that. So he was
Speaker 2: reluctant to give up his citizenship of the greatest nation
Speaker 2: in the world, which was Britain at the time. However,
Speaker 2: as early as seventeen seventy one, he recognized that there
Speaker 2: was going to be a break with this beautiful ivory
Speaker 2: sculpture that had been built a British empire, and they
Speaker 2: were going to break from his early seventeen seventy one
Speaker 2: and then, of course, when the Hutchison letters came out,
Speaker 2: which was these letters from the colonial agent in America
Speaker 2: that spoke very negatively about Americans, Franklin had that revealed
Speaker 2: generally was he became pursua non grata. They cut off
Speaker 2: his salary of eighteen hundred pounds a year that he
Speaker 2: was earning as the colonial agent, so he was forced
Speaker 2: to leave basically the country before he was arrested and
Speaker 2: returned in seventeen seventy five, helped Common Sense be published
Speaker 2: and became a radical at his old age in the seventies.
Speaker 2: Can you imagine that? So I admire him for doing that.
Speaker 2: And he was old generation older than the other Founding fathers,
Speaker 2: Thomas Jefferson, George Washington is over. He was thirty years
Speaker 2: older than all of those people.
Speaker 1: He's a radical in the sense of the sovereignty of man,
Speaker 1: of all of the things that we cherish obviously in
Speaker 1: this republic. Would he have been well, I guess that
Speaker 1: is a question for how radical he was at the time,
Speaker 1: at his age. Would he have identified with the radical
Speaker 1: left in America today, because some radicals have on the
Speaker 1: left have tried to claim him over the years.
Speaker 2: Well, Frankly, one of the things that I like about
Speaker 2: the Founding Fathers is they didn't have that kind of
Speaker 2: divisive labeling that they did either you or for independence
Speaker 2: or against independence. There was nearly no left or right
Speaker 2: in that respect. But they did advocate the rights of man,
Speaker 2: and that included free speech, freedom of assembly, you had
Speaker 2: to you know, the Fourth Amendment. All those things in
Speaker 2: the Bill of Rights, Uh, came out of that era.
Speaker 2: So I don't think you can divide that into left
Speaker 2: or right today's rhetoric. In that respect, he was very
Speaker 2: much worried that America would eventually see a king take
Speaker 2: take a monarchy, would would would come back in the
Speaker 2: United States. He did warn about that, and I think
Speaker 2: we are everybody is concerned that our current president is
Speaker 2: using these executive orders to the extreme and Congress is
Speaker 2: not passing hardly any legislation. Franklin was a firm believer
Speaker 2: in the diverse powers and making sure that that there's
Speaker 2: a balance of power between the legislature and the executive
Speaker 2: and the judicial branch of government. That was one of
Speaker 2: the key points of the Constitution. So he would he
Speaker 2: would be concerned about what's happening today. The imbalance has
Speaker 2: taking place, for the executive is far more powerful than Congress.
Speaker 1: Our guest today is Mark Skousen, author of the Greatest
Speaker 1: American History's Most Versatile Genius. It's an exploration of the
Speaker 1: life and legacy of Benjamin Franklin. I would say this
Speaker 1: perhaps Benjamin Franklin would be concerned because he was there
Speaker 1: in the Constitutional Convention room in Philadelphia, and it is not,
Speaker 1: as you have mentioned before, not a apocryphal. He came
Speaker 1: out of the convention hall and when asked by Philadelphia
Speaker 1: woman doctor Franklin, what sort of government do we have?
Speaker 1: A republic if you can keep it, he meant absolutely that.
Speaker 1: And while he may have misgivings about executive orders, he
Speaker 1: would have misgivings about executive orders that were used very
Speaker 1: liberally during the Biden administration as well, and let's face it,
Speaker 1: multiple administrations over the course of history of this country's history.
Speaker 1: He would also be very concerned. I would assume of
Speaker 1: the power, the outsized power we've seen from the federal
Speaker 1: judiciary in trying to claim the powers that it arguably
Speaker 1: does not have when it comes to nationwide injunctions. What
Speaker 1: say you about that? And how Franklin would feel in
Speaker 1: this resistance movement against the current administration and president.
Speaker 2: Well, my wife and I completed Franklin's autobiography. That's another
Speaker 2: thing we did prior to the publishing publishing at this book.
Speaker 2: So Franklin his original autobiography that's very popular. It's in
Speaker 2: all the bookstores he went up to seventeen fifty seven,
Speaker 2: and did not include anything about the American Revolution, or
Speaker 2: his ambassador to France, or the Constitutional Convention. And when
Speaker 2: we completed his autobiography and went through his writings and
Speaker 2: stuff like that, we came across two quotes that I
Speaker 2: think are I think representative of his views regarding some
Speaker 2: of these questions that you've asked. First, on domestic policy,
Speaker 2: he said, a virtuous and industrious people may be cheaply
Speaker 2: government governed. And so the question is do we have
Speaker 2: cheap government today? No, we have big government. And both
Speaker 2: Republicans and Democrats would agree that we have big government today.
Speaker 2: And it's not cheap, it's very expensive. And what does
Speaker 2: that say to about us as a virtuous and industrious people.
Speaker 2: I throw that out. The second quote is Franklin's foreign
Speaker 2: policy is also can be used in one word, and
Speaker 2: it's very similar to George Washington's Farewell Addrests, except it's
Speaker 2: one sentence. Franklin said, the system of America is commerce
Speaker 2: withal and war with none. Very idealistic, but one that
Speaker 2: again I find when I speak on Benjamin Franklin, no
Speaker 2: matter what your political persuasion, you're not in agreement. That
Speaker 2: really is the ideal. So I don't know what to
Speaker 2: say about the excesses. I think he would be critical
Speaker 2: of the excesses of both Republicans and Democrats, both Biden
Speaker 2: and Trump to I mean, I think he actually at
Speaker 2: one point he I actually advocated twelve presidents at the
Speaker 2: same time. I mean, they wanted to disperse power by
Speaker 2: having twelve of these men out there, you know, I
Speaker 2: mean it's crazy. I mean you go back to the
Speaker 2: Roman times where they had two leaders at the same time.
Speaker 2: Then we went to president vice president at the same time.
Speaker 2: Opposite parties, by the way, and now of course it's
Speaker 2: either one party or nothing. It seems like we're very
Speaker 2: party oridyent. And Franklin not really a fan of party politics.
Speaker 2: And he spoke out against the growth of the power
Speaker 2: of power and money playing excessive roles in this and
Speaker 2: so he's a firm believer in representative government. I wouldn't
Speaker 2: call it democracy because back then that was viewed negatively
Speaker 2: that you wanted an educated representative government. You don't want
Speaker 2: him a monarchy, but you also don't want pure democracy
Speaker 2: where the mob runs thing. So his was a balanced
Speaker 2: approach of educated individual representatives of the people elected from
Speaker 2: time to time, and he was very optimistic about America.
Speaker 2: He thought America had a great future. And in fact,
Speaker 2: on your on the American Eagle gold or the silver
Speaker 2: coins that are minted every year by the US Mint
Speaker 2: on the covers on the front part of his Lady Liberty,
Speaker 2: the statement in God we trust and the rising Sun,
Speaker 2: and the rising Sun is Franklin's symbol of America.
Speaker 1: Well, I have often lamented that I was born during
Speaker 1: this time. I was a child born in the summer
Speaker 1: of the water great Watergate break ins. That's to give
Speaker 1: it some historical concept. But I've often lamented that I
Speaker 1: am a of this time. And it's amazing, not amazing
Speaker 1: to me, but interesting to me that Benjamin Franklin lamented
Speaker 1: that he was not a citizen of a far future time.
Speaker 1: I think about that. Can only imagine how much worse
Speaker 1: the music could be several centuries from now. But you
Speaker 1: said he was a modern man. He actually wanted to
Speaker 1: be part of the next modern age.
Speaker 2: Yes, indeed he was. He felt bad that he had
Speaker 2: not been born two or three generations later, which should
Speaker 2: be nowaday period. So you can look at is the
Speaker 2: glass half full or half empty? He would love the
Speaker 2: modern gadgetry and technology and the standard of living in
Speaker 2: the internet. He would have a cell phone, He would
Speaker 2: be into AI, he would be into all of these
Speaker 2: wonderful things that we enjoy.
Speaker 1: Those are interesting images. I have to tell you watching
Speaker 1: Benjamin Franklin on a small art phone and then you
Speaker 1: complaining at movie theaters that he's not getting a good reception.
Speaker 2: Indeed, I think that would be the case. But I
Speaker 2: think he would be so fascinated with the speed in
Speaker 2: which we traveled. I mean, it would take a whole
Speaker 2: month for him to go from Philadelphia to London. It
Speaker 2: took that long. Instead we fly and get there in
Speaker 2: five or six hours. But at the same time, he
Speaker 2: would be moaned the size of government national debt, the
Speaker 2: government intrusion in our personal lives. Those things he would
Speaker 2: not be happy with. So on that balance, I'm sure
Speaker 2: he would still be delighted to be alive today and
Speaker 2: to enjoy the debates, enjoy the lifestyle, enjoy the lady
Speaker 2: and their intellectual interests and not just their sexuality. I
Speaker 2: think there's a lot to be said. He would like
Speaker 2: the fact that all men are created equal. All men
Speaker 2: and women are created equal, and now with their creator
Speaker 2: with certain in leble rights. Among those are life, liberty
Speaker 2: and the pursuit of money. No, I'm sorry, the pursuit
Speaker 2: of happiness.
Speaker 1: Well, he experienced both obviously in his lifetime, and certainly
Speaker 1: plenty of happiness with the ladies, as we had talked
Speaker 1: about earlier. Just a quick note on debt. So he
Speaker 1: was not in agreement with another founder, Alexander Hamilton that debt. Again,
Speaker 1: this has to be taken in context, but debt is
Speaker 1: a blessing. He was not a big debt guy.
Speaker 2: Yes, but he was actually very much in Alexander Hamilton's
Speaker 2: camp in the respect that he he thought that this
Speaker 2: idea of creating a national debt to take over the
Speaker 2: state debt was a good idea, even though it was
Speaker 2: near the end of his life. He favored a central bank.
Speaker 2: He actually thought inflation, a little inflation, was good. He
Speaker 2: was a paper money guy more than gold and silver,
Speaker 2: and the reason for that is because Britain denied the
Speaker 2: use of silver and gold, or they limited their use
Speaker 2: in the colonies, and so he wrote a pamphlet in
Speaker 2: favor of issuing paper money. But again, I like Franklin
Speaker 2: because he changed his mind over time and when he
Speaker 2: witnessed the runaway inflation and not worth the continental during
Speaker 2: that time period, the struggles he had in raising money
Speaker 2: with the French because of inflation and the fact that
Speaker 2: the Americans couldn't pay off their debts during the war,
Speaker 2: that was he changed his mind. He said, a little
Speaker 2: inflation's good, but a lot of inflation is bad.
Speaker 1: Moderation. Once again, close with this the two part question
Speaker 1: from what you have learned about your relative Benjamin Franklin.
Speaker 1: As we get near two hundred and fifty years of
Speaker 1: this great Republic, the question is what do you think
Speaker 1: Benjamin Franklin would make of it? Would he be proud
Speaker 1: of the country he helped create.
Speaker 2: Very definitely, despite all of our problems and so over
Speaker 2: the fact that we've lived under the constitution that he
Speaker 2: helped develop is still with us to this day, even
Speaker 2: though it is not has been abused over the years,
Speaker 2: and so forth. On net balance, he would be very
Speaker 2: pleased with what we see and the compromises that you
Speaker 2: sometimes have to make. Don't let the don't let the
Speaker 2: perfect get in the way of the good, so to speak.
Speaker 2: I think would be his, his his looking down on
Speaker 2: the earth with some happiness about what we have seen
Speaker 2: and how we still celebrate July fourth. And also there's
Speaker 2: another great quote which I actually created. I put into
Speaker 2: a little poster, and it says, it's incredible the quantity
Speaker 2: of good that a single man can do when he
Speaker 2: makes a business out of it. And he's truly a
Speaker 2: believer that business is really the key to success in
Speaker 2: this life. I mean, does government create jobs not really, certainly,
Speaker 2: not jobs that that are particularly productive and sober. No,
Speaker 2: it's it's business. And when business is successful, they create jobs,
Speaker 2: they higher standard of living, they create an increase in
Speaker 2: the quantity, quality, and variety of goods and services. And
Speaker 2: really the ultimate fact is that Franklin was America's first capitalist,
Speaker 2: if you will, and defended the capitalist system. He said,
Speaker 2: we have this welfare program. The British had this welfare program,
Speaker 2: and he said, who funded that, Well, wealthy business people
Speaker 2: funded that. You need a successful entrepreneurial America to achieve
Speaker 2: this level of success. And this whole idea of the
Speaker 2: American dream is certainly one that Franklin espoused. They have
Speaker 2: been the first to really realize the American dream. And
Speaker 2: that's a great contribution. So there's so many ways that
Speaker 2: Franklin is really a good example, and even in the
Speaker 2: case of women, as we were talking about how he
Speaker 2: talks about his errata in life, and he actually became
Speaker 2: a devoted husband with his wife Deborah, and these stories
Speaker 2: of him having relations and affairs and so forth with
Speaker 2: other women that occurred before he got married and then
Speaker 2: after his wife died. So while they were married, they
Speaker 2: were very close to each other. And at the beginning
Speaker 2: of my book Degree American, I dedicate it to my
Speaker 2: own wife, and I say, and I quote from Franklin,
Speaker 2: it is the man and woman united that makes the
Speaker 2: complete human being. Together they are more likely to succeed
Speaker 2: in the world. And I thought that was a really
Speaker 2: good summary of Franklin's views.
Speaker 1: I think so as well. Obviously, this is a man
Speaker 1: who grew and changed and evolved in all of those
Speaker 1: sorts of things, but he had some core principles that
Speaker 1: he long held on to. As you point out in
Speaker 1: this book. I see him perhaps as a single man
Speaker 1: in Europe, or a single man years before in his youth,
Speaker 1: how fascinated he might be with the concept of tinder.
Speaker 2: But he.
Speaker 1: Changed on that front, as he did with his faith
Speaker 1: and with his spirituality and his religion. Over time he evolved,
Speaker 1: as you mentioned before in that and this is what
Speaker 1: I do know as a man of faith, is that
Speaker 1: America is America because of Benjamin Franklin. In fact, I
Speaker 1: believe God gave us Benjamin Franklin, among others, at a
Speaker 1: very critical juncture in the creation of this country, and
Speaker 1: I think your book reflects that very strongly. Thank you
Speaker 1: so much for sharing the journey of writing the book
Speaker 1: and the book itself well.
Speaker 2: Thank you very much, Matt. It's been a real pleasure.
Speaker 2: And as Franklin always signed off, his name, b Free Franklin.
Speaker 1: Absolutely and we do as well. Thanks to my guest today,
Speaker 1: Mark Skousen, author of the greatest American History's most Versatile Genius,
Speaker 1: An exploration of the life and legacy of Benjamin Franklin.
Speaker 1: You've been listening to another edition of the Federalist Radio Hour.
Speaker 1: I'm Matt Kittle, senior elections correspondent at the Federalists. We'll
Speaker 1: be back soon with more. Until then, stay lovers of
Speaker 1: freedom and anxious for the frame
Speaker 2: Right