1 00:00:01,120 --> 00:00:04,160 Speaker 1: You're listening to the Mind over Murder podcast. 2 00:00:06,000 --> 00:00:09,679 Speaker 2: My name is Bill Thomas. I'm a writer, consulting, producer, 3 00:00:09,720 --> 00:00:12,839 and now podcaster. I am now trying to use my 4 00:00:12,919 --> 00:00:15,800 experience as the brother of a murder victim to help 5 00:00:15,880 --> 00:00:18,600 other victims of violent crime. I'm working on a book 6 00:00:18,679 --> 00:00:21,440 on the unsolved Colonial Parkway murders, and I'm the co 7 00:00:21,519 --> 00:00:24,760 administrator of the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook group together with 8 00:00:24,839 --> 00:00:25,519 Kristin Dilly. 9 00:00:26,079 --> 00:00:27,359 Speaker 3: My name is Kristin Dilly. 10 00:00:27,519 --> 00:00:31,199 Speaker 4: I'm a writer, a researcher, a teacher, and a victim's advocate, 11 00:00:31,359 --> 00:00:34,719 as well as the social media manager and co administrator 12 00:00:34,799 --> 00:00:37,799 for the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook page with my partner 13 00:00:37,840 --> 00:00:39,079 in crime, Bill Thomas. 14 00:00:41,039 --> 00:00:44,039 Speaker 5: Welcome to Mind of a Murder. I'm Kristin Dilly and 15 00:00:44,079 --> 00:00:47,000 I'm Bill Thomas, and we are honored to be joined 16 00:00:47,000 --> 00:00:50,520 today by Denise and Aaron Quinn, authors of the book 17 00:00:50,799 --> 00:00:55,600 Victim f and stars of the Netflix series American Nightmare. 18 00:00:56,240 --> 00:00:58,320 Denise and Aaron, thank you for joining us today. We 19 00:00:58,399 --> 00:00:59,359 really appreciate it. 20 00:01:00,079 --> 00:01:01,840 Speaker 3: Thank you for having us so. 21 00:01:01,880 --> 00:01:03,600 Speaker 5: We were so thrilled to get to meet you at 22 00:01:03,640 --> 00:01:07,079 Crime Con. We are just big fans of both of you, 23 00:01:07,319 --> 00:01:09,920 and we are I would say, both of us really 24 00:01:10,120 --> 00:01:12,560 honored to know you. The fact that you're willing to 25 00:01:12,560 --> 00:01:16,159 take the time for us today, we really appreciate it. Yeah, 26 00:01:16,200 --> 00:01:18,239 of course, we know that they are going to be 27 00:01:18,280 --> 00:01:21,280 our listeners who are not familiar with your case, and 28 00:01:21,439 --> 00:01:25,760 rather than have you rehash all of the very complex 29 00:01:25,959 --> 00:01:29,719 and I'm sure quite traumatizing events behind it, we're at 30 00:01:29,719 --> 00:01:33,280 the top of this episode going to direct our listeners 31 00:01:33,480 --> 00:01:36,519 to your book Victim f which was co written with 32 00:01:36,760 --> 00:01:40,159 Nikki Egan, and the Netflix documentary which is based on 33 00:01:40,200 --> 00:01:43,799 that book called American Nightmare. We want to start by 34 00:01:43,840 --> 00:01:46,000 asking you rather than going through the case, we do 35 00:01:46,040 --> 00:01:48,359 want to start by asking talk a little bit about 36 00:01:48,400 --> 00:01:50,799 the experience of writing the book and what was that 37 00:01:51,079 --> 00:01:52,079 like for both of you. 38 00:01:53,159 --> 00:01:59,040 Speaker 6: Yeah, it was really a mix of emotions. We very 39 00:01:59,040 --> 00:02:01,799 early on have more or less the truth of our 40 00:02:01,879 --> 00:02:05,560 story hijacked, first initially by the police saying that it 41 00:02:05,599 --> 00:02:08,719 was all a hoax, and then through the media they 42 00:02:09,199 --> 00:02:12,599 mislabeled me the real life Gone Girl, and even after 43 00:02:12,960 --> 00:02:16,800 my captor and rapist was caught, there was still misinformation 44 00:02:17,280 --> 00:02:21,479 perpetuated by the law enforcement that it was really frustrating 45 00:02:21,680 --> 00:02:24,759 to sit back silently and watch as the world had 46 00:02:24,800 --> 00:02:28,240 conversations and judgments about the worst moments of your life 47 00:02:28,240 --> 00:02:30,639 and you just couldn't say anything, so you didn't want 48 00:02:30,680 --> 00:02:35,199 to negatively impact the court process or him being sentenced. Fully, 49 00:02:35,800 --> 00:02:38,400 even in that time of silence, we wrote I think 50 00:02:38,479 --> 00:02:41,240 just in general, it's really healing to get something like 51 00:02:41,280 --> 00:02:44,800 that down on paper, to process living through it. 52 00:02:44,879 --> 00:02:46,759 Speaker 3: Moment to moment, you're just surviving. 53 00:02:47,360 --> 00:02:50,240 Speaker 6: So it's helpful to be able to revisit in a 54 00:02:50,280 --> 00:02:53,240 safe place and really try to figure out what you 55 00:02:53,280 --> 00:02:55,840 were thinking and feeling in those moments. A lot of 56 00:02:55,879 --> 00:03:00,840 it can be quite validating revisiting and really giving a 57 00:03:00,879 --> 00:03:04,919 space to understand the decisions that you made, and because 58 00:03:04,919 --> 00:03:06,919 there's a lot of self blame and self doubt that 59 00:03:06,960 --> 00:03:10,240 can happen when you go through something like this. Yeah, 60 00:03:10,240 --> 00:03:12,879 and it's of course to go back to those moments 61 00:03:12,960 --> 00:03:16,080 can be re traumatizing. You feel the terror of those 62 00:03:16,360 --> 00:03:21,759 very life or death traumatizing situations. Again, it's it's healing 63 00:03:22,000 --> 00:03:25,439 to be able to revisit and reprocess it and really 64 00:03:25,439 --> 00:03:26,360 get a voice again. 65 00:03:27,759 --> 00:03:30,000 Speaker 7: I think it was important for us to have it 66 00:03:30,080 --> 00:03:34,120 from both our points of view, so that alters or 67 00:03:34,439 --> 00:03:37,080 alternates between chapter from my point of view, and then 68 00:03:37,159 --> 00:03:40,520 Denise says, I think people generally understood what Denise went 69 00:03:40,520 --> 00:03:44,000 through was absolutely horrible, and you can have some imagination 70 00:03:44,159 --> 00:03:47,120 of what that would be like. But what Mayfield didn't 71 00:03:47,120 --> 00:03:49,159 know is what the police were doing to me on 72 00:03:49,560 --> 00:03:53,159 during this exact same time where people understood that they 73 00:03:53,199 --> 00:03:55,479 came out called a hoax, but actually there the whole 74 00:03:55,520 --> 00:03:57,599 time they were telling me I had emerged Denise and 75 00:03:57,840 --> 00:03:59,599 that this was all made up, so they didn't believe 76 00:03:59,639 --> 00:04:02,360 it from the get go, and we wanted to as 77 00:04:02,400 --> 00:04:04,919 best we could put people in our shoes and have 78 00:04:05,080 --> 00:04:07,039 people wonder what would I do if I was in 79 00:04:07,039 --> 00:04:12,120 this situation? And how do you handle the machinery of 80 00:04:12,360 --> 00:04:16,839 law enforcement, the media, social media, all just piling on you. 81 00:04:16,959 --> 00:04:20,600 And that's almost insurmowable task to get through. And that's 82 00:04:20,720 --> 00:04:24,480 in a way was challenging to write therapeutic in some ways. 83 00:04:24,519 --> 00:04:27,120 One I generally felt like if I read part of 84 00:04:27,120 --> 00:04:28,920 my chapter I felt a little sick, then I was 85 00:04:28,959 --> 00:04:29,959 probably on the right track. 86 00:04:30,839 --> 00:04:35,399 Speaker 2: This has to be incredibly difficult, not just the experience, 87 00:04:35,480 --> 00:04:38,720 but I wanted to roll back to when you all 88 00:04:38,800 --> 00:04:42,879 started talking about we should write a book, after all 89 00:04:42,959 --> 00:04:46,560 you'd already been through. Does one person tuned to another 90 00:04:46,680 --> 00:04:49,600 and say we should write a book about our experiences 91 00:04:49,720 --> 00:04:52,160 or how did that kind of bubble up? 92 00:04:52,800 --> 00:05:00,199 Speaker 6: I think having the truth of something this horrifying be 93 00:05:00,319 --> 00:05:06,000 told through other people's mouths, lenses, narratives cut and edited 94 00:05:06,120 --> 00:05:09,680 to whatever version that they want to give. I think 95 00:05:09,959 --> 00:05:12,160 we talked about it early on, like, if we are 96 00:05:12,199 --> 00:05:14,160 ever going to do something, we need to write a 97 00:05:14,199 --> 00:05:17,160 book so we can put the full truth out there, 98 00:05:17,560 --> 00:05:20,839 because if we do anything on film, it's going to 99 00:05:20,920 --> 00:05:23,720 be edited through the lens of And even with the 100 00:05:23,759 --> 00:05:27,120 Netflix series that came out, and we worked really closely 101 00:05:27,199 --> 00:05:29,920 with the team to make sure that the overall bigger 102 00:05:29,959 --> 00:05:34,680 picture themes were addressed and it wasn't just the sensationalism 103 00:05:34,720 --> 00:05:38,240 of the crime itself. But even then it's still edited 104 00:05:38,279 --> 00:05:41,720 in a way with that true crime genre and sensational 105 00:05:41,759 --> 00:05:44,240 because it needs to be entertaining for people to keep 106 00:05:44,560 --> 00:05:45,680 clicking binging through. 107 00:05:46,120 --> 00:05:47,560 Speaker 3: That was our ultimate goal. 108 00:05:47,560 --> 00:05:49,519 Speaker 6: If we're ever going to really share this, then we 109 00:05:49,560 --> 00:05:52,160 want to be able to put it down through our voices, 110 00:05:52,199 --> 00:05:55,279 through our perspective. Because that was another thing that we saw. 111 00:05:55,319 --> 00:05:58,240 We started paying attention to quote unquote true crime, and 112 00:05:58,279 --> 00:06:01,839 we saw a lot of it being focused on the 113 00:06:01,839 --> 00:06:06,160 perpetrator and kind of glorifying and sensationalizing that what makes 114 00:06:06,160 --> 00:06:08,000 some tick and all of that, and victims were an 115 00:06:08,000 --> 00:06:12,120 afterthought and just throughout our entire experience, even through the 116 00:06:12,120 --> 00:06:15,720 court process, even after the truth was out, the revictimization 117 00:06:15,839 --> 00:06:19,079 that we face. I don't think the public really understands 118 00:06:19,120 --> 00:06:21,800 fully what it's like to be a victim throughout the 119 00:06:21,839 --> 00:06:25,199 whole thing. But doesn't just end when the crime is over. 120 00:06:25,480 --> 00:06:29,680 It's a lifetime that you have to navigate. We talked 121 00:06:29,720 --> 00:06:32,839 about it early on. It's interesting because we even consulted 122 00:06:32,879 --> 00:06:37,639 with some publishers and literary agents and we got a 123 00:06:37,680 --> 00:06:39,600 lot of, oh, you know, what you went through was 124 00:06:39,920 --> 00:06:42,920 pretty bad, but no one's going to want to read 125 00:06:42,920 --> 00:06:46,879 a book about it, and we're like, really, okay, So 126 00:06:47,839 --> 00:06:51,800 we didn't accept that, and we waited and were patient 127 00:06:51,879 --> 00:06:55,959 and kept true to ourselves, and eventually we found the 128 00:06:56,079 --> 00:06:58,959 right publisher and co author to work with. 129 00:07:00,519 --> 00:07:02,920 Speaker 5: Yeah, how did you meet Nicole Egan? That was going 130 00:07:02,959 --> 00:07:06,160 to be our next question. She is a absolutely wonderful, 131 00:07:06,639 --> 00:07:09,879 delightful person. So did you find her or did she 132 00:07:10,040 --> 00:07:11,920 find you? Or was it a little bit of both. 133 00:07:12,800 --> 00:07:16,079 Speaker 6: We had the same literary agent at the time. That's 134 00:07:16,079 --> 00:07:18,439 how we got connected. She had just written her book 135 00:07:18,519 --> 00:07:21,839 Chasing Cosby, because she had followed the Cosby survivors for 136 00:07:22,040 --> 00:07:26,519 gosh over a decade or more, and so she was yeah, 137 00:07:26,600 --> 00:07:30,160 focused on the victims and really focused on wanting to 138 00:07:30,160 --> 00:07:31,839 get the truth. That was the thing for us too. 139 00:07:31,879 --> 00:07:35,639 We wanted to make sure everything was truthful and factual 140 00:07:35,680 --> 00:07:40,040 as possible, and we had a different author we were 141 00:07:40,079 --> 00:07:43,879 initially working with that really wanted to make it into 142 00:07:44,000 --> 00:07:48,920 a psychological thriller and get Muller a voice and a perspective, 143 00:07:49,680 --> 00:07:52,519 and it was like, whoa, nothing, this is not yeah, 144 00:07:52,560 --> 00:07:55,399 this is not what our goals are. We don't want 145 00:07:55,439 --> 00:07:59,240 to feed into that. And so it was really helpful 146 00:07:59,279 --> 00:08:02,680 to work with the nicky. She has put any ego 147 00:08:02,759 --> 00:08:05,759 aside and really just we all agreed that it should 148 00:08:05,759 --> 00:08:09,480 be told from our perspectives. Within the process, we realize 149 00:08:09,519 --> 00:08:12,199 that Aaron and I should write our own parts. And 150 00:08:12,240 --> 00:08:15,480 then she really helped us edit. We're not technical writers. 151 00:08:15,600 --> 00:08:19,879 We absolutely needed her to help guide and shape the book. 152 00:08:19,920 --> 00:08:22,759 Speaker 3: And then she did the third person parts of the book. 153 00:08:22,800 --> 00:08:25,600 Speaker 6: So it was really nice because we got our perspectives, 154 00:08:25,680 --> 00:08:29,680 we're living through our own kind of story, side by side, 155 00:08:30,199 --> 00:08:34,000 and then she interviewed family members and our attorneys, and 156 00:08:34,039 --> 00:08:39,159 then through media reports and court documents, pulled in perspectives 157 00:08:39,159 --> 00:08:42,559 of law enforcement. So you really do get like a 158 00:08:42,639 --> 00:08:45,879 full bird's eye view of everything that happened in our book. 159 00:08:46,440 --> 00:08:50,039 Speaker 2: So you really get three perspectives if you will, Denise 160 00:08:50,279 --> 00:08:53,759 Aaron and then also Nicky's point of view as a 161 00:08:54,120 --> 00:08:56,759 I don't think she'd be offended if I said outsider, 162 00:08:57,200 --> 00:09:00,559 because she is able to step in with a fresh persontive. 163 00:09:01,799 --> 00:09:04,519 Both of us were just making a horrible face when 164 00:09:04,840 --> 00:09:08,919 the when you mentioned this other writer you were considering 165 00:09:08,960 --> 00:09:11,679 working with, and the idea that you're going to give 166 00:09:11,720 --> 00:09:17,000 the offender a voice, that's just grotesque. And you're absolutely right. 167 00:09:17,240 --> 00:09:19,600 As much as both of us love true crime, Kristen 168 00:09:19,639 --> 00:09:23,120 and Bill, and Kristen is an avid reader, the endless 169 00:09:23,200 --> 00:09:29,759 fascination and discussion of offenders, it's beyond eye rolling. That's 170 00:09:29,879 --> 00:09:33,639 not the only compelling narrative in true crime. And yet 171 00:09:33,639 --> 00:09:37,759 people seem to be wanting to talk about offenders, serial killers, 172 00:09:37,759 --> 00:09:41,679 what have you endlessly. How did you feel like you 173 00:09:42,159 --> 00:09:43,840 were able to push back against that? 174 00:09:44,879 --> 00:09:49,480 Speaker 6: A lot of fighting, no argue, I laugh, No, I 175 00:09:49,480 --> 00:09:53,919 mean it was a long journey to get the right people. 176 00:09:53,960 --> 00:09:56,559 And even then there's a lot of hiring and firing 177 00:09:56,759 --> 00:09:59,840 and trial and error of entering a contract, having to 178 00:09:59,840 --> 00:10:03,000 get out of a contract because people tell you what 179 00:10:03,039 --> 00:10:05,639 you want to hear. But then when push comes to 180 00:10:05,679 --> 00:10:08,440 shove and the work is actually being done and you're like, 181 00:10:08,480 --> 00:10:10,600 oh my god, you're doing the thing again. And a 182 00:10:10,600 --> 00:10:15,519 big piece of our case was that that type of viewpoint, 183 00:10:15,759 --> 00:10:20,639 that sensationalism around a real crime, whereas like sometimes quote 184 00:10:20,679 --> 00:10:25,039 unquote true crime isn't really true, it's spun, it's dramatized, 185 00:10:25,600 --> 00:10:28,600 And part of that fed into the whole gone girl 186 00:10:28,639 --> 00:10:33,320 thing and viewing me a certain way, not understanding how 187 00:10:33,360 --> 00:10:37,440 real victims respond in these types of situations, and quite frankly, 188 00:10:37,480 --> 00:10:40,159 it seemed like law enforcement got a lot of their 189 00:10:40,360 --> 00:10:44,480 training quote unquote, from fiction and from these types of 190 00:10:44,799 --> 00:10:51,080 sensationalized stories. So we absolutely didn't want to participate in that. 191 00:10:51,120 --> 00:10:53,519 We didn't want to feed into it. And we did 192 00:10:53,559 --> 00:10:56,679 get some talk with different publishers who were like, what 193 00:10:56,799 --> 00:11:01,559 about giving the detective a point of you and we're like, which, 194 00:11:01,759 --> 00:11:04,279 like Misty, Yeah she's great, but she doesn't come in 195 00:11:04,399 --> 00:11:04,960 till the end. 196 00:11:05,240 --> 00:11:05,879 Speaker 3: A lot of it. 197 00:11:06,399 --> 00:11:09,559 Speaker 6: As victims, you have to self advocate and fight these 198 00:11:09,600 --> 00:11:12,440 battles on your own or with our hired attorneys or 199 00:11:12,480 --> 00:11:14,679 with our family members, and so it was really important 200 00:11:14,679 --> 00:11:17,120 for us to show the realness of all of that. 201 00:11:18,159 --> 00:11:21,919 Speaker 7: And it's important like we're both physical therapists were at 202 00:11:21,919 --> 00:11:23,600 the time when we started writing a book. We're in 203 00:11:23,600 --> 00:11:26,039 our early thirties. We have careers that we could go 204 00:11:26,120 --> 00:11:30,440 back to, and so we're able to in a way 205 00:11:30,519 --> 00:11:33,919 if we couldn't find the right partners to help us, 206 00:11:33,960 --> 00:11:37,039 we could just step away. And that's a big part 207 00:11:37,039 --> 00:11:40,159 of it. That would be disappointing. We knew that either 208 00:11:40,279 --> 00:11:44,840 we do something that means that's important to us, that 209 00:11:44,919 --> 00:11:48,200 will mean look at bigger pictures like how the police 210 00:11:48,240 --> 00:11:52,120 handle cases or how the media handles cases, and not 211 00:11:52,200 --> 00:11:55,120 focus on the perpetrator. Either we do that or we 212 00:11:55,159 --> 00:11:58,720 do nothing. We had to accept that, and that's sometimes 213 00:11:58,720 --> 00:12:02,440 people don't have maybe that avenue and often true crime 214 00:12:02,759 --> 00:12:05,679 victims are younger and maybe they need the money from 215 00:12:06,159 --> 00:12:09,399 one of these projects. Even though it's frankly that doesn't matter. 216 00:12:09,440 --> 00:12:11,159 It's not that much, but they might need it. We 217 00:12:11,200 --> 00:12:13,919 could go to our careers and our families and walk 218 00:12:13,919 --> 00:12:15,399 away from it if we needed to. So I was 219 00:12:15,440 --> 00:12:18,360 put us in a unique position to find the right people, 220 00:12:18,360 --> 00:12:20,720 and it took a lot, yeah, a lot of trial 221 00:12:20,720 --> 00:12:21,039 and error. 222 00:12:21,600 --> 00:12:24,799 Speaker 2: So the idea of we can we don't need this 223 00:12:25,200 --> 00:12:28,320 and we can walk it sounds like that might have 224 00:12:28,399 --> 00:12:31,840 increased your leverage from time to time when you needed it. 225 00:12:32,840 --> 00:12:39,080 Speaker 6: Probably maybe more so for ourselves, like emotionally, So I 226 00:12:39,120 --> 00:12:42,639 think sometimes we did take a step back in the 227 00:12:42,639 --> 00:12:45,440 same vein we started working with a different production company 228 00:12:45,799 --> 00:12:47,960 it and as things were moving it wasn't right, and 229 00:12:48,000 --> 00:12:51,639 we fought to get out of that contract. And then 230 00:12:51,840 --> 00:12:55,519 we're really being courted by Raw, the production company that 231 00:12:55,559 --> 00:12:58,399 did American Nightmare for a year and a half. We like, 232 00:12:58,559 --> 00:13:01,120 they kept checking in and we made them right out, 233 00:13:01,159 --> 00:13:04,000 full outlines of what their goals were, and we were 234 00:13:04,200 --> 00:13:06,879 very cautious and very making sure that they're on the 235 00:13:06,919 --> 00:13:09,519 same page. So I think that, yeah, I think for 236 00:13:09,600 --> 00:13:13,919 our emotional stamina really to deal with entering in these 237 00:13:13,960 --> 00:13:17,559 types of projects, that helped. Knowing okay, we have each other, 238 00:13:17,639 --> 00:13:21,039 We've got our jobs, we have our family. If we 239 00:13:21,120 --> 00:13:23,679 don't do this, if it doesn't work out, then that's fine. 240 00:13:23,720 --> 00:13:25,960 If we're going to do it, it has to be right 241 00:13:26,200 --> 00:13:27,759 and hould true to our values. 242 00:13:27,840 --> 00:13:29,080 Speaker 3: Since it's the long road. 243 00:13:29,639 --> 00:13:31,399 Speaker 5: Bill and I have been on the other end of 244 00:13:31,440 --> 00:13:34,679 the documentary making process as well, and we know that 245 00:13:34,799 --> 00:13:39,320 it is exhausting. It's frustrating. It can be like banging 246 00:13:39,360 --> 00:13:43,200 your head on the wall just trying to get across 247 00:13:43,240 --> 00:13:46,519 the point of view that you want to have conveyed. 248 00:13:47,399 --> 00:13:50,840 How was making the documentary for you when you found 249 00:13:50,879 --> 00:13:55,320 the right production company. Was it another sort of aspect 250 00:13:55,320 --> 00:13:58,399 of getting your voice back and owning your story or 251 00:13:58,399 --> 00:14:00,759 did it become something that was like, it's so re 252 00:14:00,840 --> 00:14:03,000 traumatizing because I have to tell it again and again. 253 00:14:03,840 --> 00:14:07,360 Speaker 6: Be a little bit of both. Yeah, definitely, do you 254 00:14:07,360 --> 00:14:08,320 want to start. 255 00:14:09,279 --> 00:14:12,639 Speaker 7: When you're doing the interviews, it's quite challenging because one, 256 00:14:12,799 --> 00:14:15,399 you're doing reviews all day, so you're in front of 257 00:14:15,600 --> 00:14:19,320 cameras with lights and stuff that we're not used to, 258 00:14:19,440 --> 00:14:22,799 and that's we're doing multiple days of out like eight 259 00:14:22,840 --> 00:14:26,759 hours on camera going through everything, and so that just 260 00:14:26,799 --> 00:14:29,279 the logistics of that is challenging, and then also you 261 00:14:29,360 --> 00:14:32,240 have to be able to tell it in the moment 262 00:14:32,600 --> 00:14:35,759 with as much emotion as you're experiencing at the time. 263 00:14:36,440 --> 00:14:39,080 And that's understandable because you want people to try and 264 00:14:39,240 --> 00:14:41,840 feel what you're going through. That's not generally how you 265 00:14:42,200 --> 00:14:44,399 how we deal with it in a day day you don't. 266 00:14:45,159 --> 00:14:48,240 I can revisit, but we have to relive it. After 267 00:14:48,320 --> 00:14:50,840 doing the first my first round of interviews like it. 268 00:14:50,919 --> 00:14:53,080 Probably it probably messed me up for a couple of 269 00:14:53,159 --> 00:14:56,559 weeks to where I felt like restabilized from it because 270 00:14:56,559 --> 00:14:59,240 it was like the worst time in my life. So 271 00:14:59,279 --> 00:15:03,960 there is that point. But also the reception from the series, 272 00:15:03,960 --> 00:15:06,320 and when we saw the final edit, we know that 273 00:15:06,320 --> 00:15:09,519 they hit the major points that we're hoping they would 274 00:15:09,559 --> 00:15:13,639 get and they did stay very victim sectric and molders 275 00:15:13,759 --> 00:15:16,360 basically after a thought, which is we appreciate it and 276 00:15:16,879 --> 00:15:19,399 the amount of people have reached out to us from 277 00:15:19,559 --> 00:15:22,799 across literally across the world, and I had this touch them, 278 00:15:22,879 --> 00:15:26,600 and that makes it worth it, because people don't. People's 279 00:15:26,600 --> 00:15:29,679 minds are changed through their hearts and not necessarily through statistics. 280 00:15:29,799 --> 00:15:32,799 And so hopefully if even we've had law enforcement reach 281 00:15:32,840 --> 00:15:35,759 out and say like how they were frustrated by how 282 00:15:35,799 --> 00:15:39,120 the FBI and Valao handled it, or officers who are 283 00:15:39,159 --> 00:15:42,559 hopefully remember the story so that if they run across 284 00:15:42,799 --> 00:15:46,600 quote unquote bizarre case, that they maybe pause and say, hey, 285 00:15:46,639 --> 00:15:49,159 I should step back and not run with emotion and 286 00:15:49,200 --> 00:15:51,840 not bury the victims or bury the person in front 287 00:15:51,840 --> 00:15:53,080 of me just because they are in front of me. 288 00:15:53,120 --> 00:15:55,960 And that makes that's why we did it. So yeah, 289 00:15:55,960 --> 00:15:57,200 there's a good and bad of both. 290 00:15:57,840 --> 00:16:01,120 Speaker 5: I was rewatching it the other night and getting ready 291 00:16:01,159 --> 00:16:03,879 to interview the two of you, and it is it 292 00:16:03,960 --> 00:16:08,320 looks so emotionally devastating. Sometimes it is I can't watch 293 00:16:08,360 --> 00:16:11,399 it without crying. I can't imagine what it must have 294 00:16:11,480 --> 00:16:12,960 been like for the two of you on the day. 295 00:16:13,039 --> 00:16:15,759 So when I say that you're incredibly brave to be 296 00:16:15,799 --> 00:16:17,519 willing to go through it, I mean it from the 297 00:16:17,519 --> 00:16:18,360 bottom of my heart. 298 00:16:18,480 --> 00:16:25,039 Speaker 6: It's I was for the first round of interviews. 299 00:16:25,240 --> 00:16:28,039 Speaker 3: So it's a second episode, and I'm talking about captivity. 300 00:16:28,080 --> 00:16:31,679 Speaker 6: I was seven months pregnant with our second and there 301 00:16:31,720 --> 00:16:35,559 were some parts I'm was retelling and the directors, really, 302 00:16:35,960 --> 00:16:38,559 you're a little detached as you say it, and I'm like, 303 00:16:38,639 --> 00:16:40,000 I was detached at this point. 304 00:16:40,120 --> 00:16:41,639 Speaker 3: That's how I got through captivity. 305 00:16:41,799 --> 00:16:46,440 Speaker 6: I get that, but as a viewer, if you're detached, 306 00:16:46,840 --> 00:16:50,799 they'll turn the channel and okay, And I wanted to 307 00:16:50,879 --> 00:16:54,080 be as real as possible, and so I really did 308 00:16:54,120 --> 00:16:56,720 try to pull myself back into that place because I 309 00:16:56,879 --> 00:17:01,440 want to share all the aspects of being in that situation. 310 00:17:01,759 --> 00:17:04,359 But I just remember at one point taking a break 311 00:17:04,400 --> 00:17:07,319 and thinking, what the fuck am I doing? I'm seven 312 00:17:07,319 --> 00:17:10,559 months pregnant. Am I traumatizing my baby? Like why am 313 00:17:10,599 --> 00:17:12,599 I even doing this? It's just so so I don't 314 00:17:12,759 --> 00:17:15,000 is this even safe? All the things, And then I 315 00:17:15,039 --> 00:17:18,079 remember going into the back and this one woman who 316 00:17:18,119 --> 00:17:20,720 worked on the set, she just was like, I just 317 00:17:20,759 --> 00:17:21,160 want to. 318 00:17:21,079 --> 00:17:21,599 Speaker 3: Thank you. 319 00:17:23,400 --> 00:17:26,440 Speaker 6: For sharing and for all that you're doing, and she 320 00:17:26,559 --> 00:17:33,240 shared her experience of assault with me, and right there 321 00:17:33,319 --> 00:17:35,559 it was like, no, I'm doing this for a reason 322 00:17:35,720 --> 00:17:38,920 and it's important and I'm going to be fine, my 323 00:17:38,960 --> 00:17:43,960 baby's going to be fine, Like it's all it's worth it, 324 00:17:44,079 --> 00:17:48,119 because there is a bigger message and this is again 325 00:17:48,240 --> 00:17:51,960 like our experience of the kidnapping and the details of it. Yes, 326 00:17:51,960 --> 00:17:54,960 they're extreme and they're sensational, and all these crazy things 327 00:17:54,960 --> 00:17:58,400 but the true heart of being a victim of a 328 00:17:58,480 --> 00:18:03,720 violent crime, the human being going through trauma. Anyone can 329 00:18:03,759 --> 00:18:06,319 connect with different aspects of it, and so that's why 330 00:18:06,319 --> 00:18:09,440 it was just really important to us. As physical therapists, 331 00:18:09,440 --> 00:18:12,359 we deal with people overcoming trauma on a daily basis, 332 00:18:12,920 --> 00:18:16,359 and so we wanted to be able to use our 333 00:18:16,400 --> 00:18:19,000 experience in a way that maybe can touch people, connect 334 00:18:19,000 --> 00:18:22,119 with people, and hopefully, in the bigger picture, lead to 335 00:18:22,119 --> 00:18:24,160 some changes that need to happen. 336 00:18:25,000 --> 00:18:29,319 Speaker 2: Oh, without question, it's an amazing story and there does 337 00:18:30,319 --> 00:18:32,720 I know you've heard this, but it's important, I think 338 00:18:32,759 --> 00:18:35,440 for us to say this. It really does take a 339 00:18:35,519 --> 00:18:38,240 significant amount of bravery on both your parts to just 340 00:18:38,279 --> 00:18:40,279 say we're going to do this and we're going to 341 00:18:40,279 --> 00:18:43,759 tell this story. Talk to us about the book, Your 342 00:18:43,920 --> 00:18:48,359 collaborative process. How did it come about where each person 343 00:18:48,480 --> 00:18:51,759 was writing their own sections. Did that just develop organically? 344 00:18:53,119 --> 00:18:53,880 Speaker 3: Yes and no. 345 00:18:54,880 --> 00:18:58,359 Speaker 6: And there was like things that I remember writing just 346 00:18:58,559 --> 00:19:03,000 right after the kidnapping, especially of the home invasion and 347 00:19:03,240 --> 00:19:07,759 the first couple of days of our day. Yeah, during captivity, 348 00:19:08,119 --> 00:19:12,039 mainly because when we were preparing to be prosecuted, So 349 00:19:12,359 --> 00:19:15,400 I was just trying to get as much of everything 350 00:19:15,440 --> 00:19:18,200 down on paper as possible, So we already had those 351 00:19:18,240 --> 00:19:21,480 types of things. We had our own notes preparing for court, 352 00:19:21,680 --> 00:19:24,559 and then the naro fantasy of one day if we 353 00:19:24,599 --> 00:19:27,559 get to share our full story, maybe this is how 354 00:19:27,559 --> 00:19:29,519 we'd lay it out. And we were like sitting at 355 00:19:29,519 --> 00:19:32,359 a brewery and writing on a napkin of this is 356 00:19:32,359 --> 00:19:35,400 how we'd organize it, not even knowing if it'd really 357 00:19:35,440 --> 00:19:37,480 go anywhere. But again, in the way, it's just like 358 00:19:37,599 --> 00:19:41,279 us organizing the chaos of this whole traumatic event. And 359 00:19:41,359 --> 00:19:45,039 then as we were working with Nikki, we were trying 360 00:19:45,039 --> 00:19:47,759 to figure that out. So she'd interview us and try 361 00:19:47,759 --> 00:19:51,519 to write what we interviewed, but it was challenging. She's 362 00:19:51,559 --> 00:19:55,400 not just trying to rewrite one person's perspective, but a 363 00:19:55,440 --> 00:19:59,319 male and females separate perspectives and give us our own voices, 364 00:19:59,359 --> 00:20:01,839 and so we just covered that. I think it just 365 00:20:02,000 --> 00:20:04,559 was easiest if we wrote it out and then she 366 00:20:04,599 --> 00:20:07,759 could ask us questions, which is really helpful. Okay, that's 367 00:20:07,880 --> 00:20:10,680 we don't need as much detail on this, but can 368 00:20:10,720 --> 00:20:12,720 you pull in more of what you were feeling here? 369 00:20:13,279 --> 00:20:17,839 So we got our flow and it became a fluid 370 00:20:18,039 --> 00:20:20,160 thing where we were both or all of us were 371 00:20:20,160 --> 00:20:22,440 doing our own thing, but then we'd come together and 372 00:20:22,680 --> 00:20:24,400 it really was collaborative. 373 00:20:24,359 --> 00:20:28,640 Speaker 7: To Nikki her passion to help victims, and I know 374 00:20:28,960 --> 00:20:31,480 she still has relationships with some of the cause of 375 00:20:31,480 --> 00:20:35,039 these survivors, and she recognized that it was important for 376 00:20:35,119 --> 00:20:39,160 us to write sections, and then she has helped amplify 377 00:20:39,440 --> 00:20:43,000 and edit and used to say ask the next question 378 00:20:43,079 --> 00:20:46,400 or to follow up question using her background as a journalist, 379 00:20:46,599 --> 00:20:49,200 and so then we can get into deeper levels of it. 380 00:20:49,680 --> 00:20:53,079 And that was a major help and really just shows 381 00:20:53,079 --> 00:20:56,680 to her character what she's passionate about, what she cares about, 382 00:20:56,680 --> 00:21:00,119 which I think only made the book better. 383 00:21:00,440 --> 00:21:02,680 Speaker 5: It sounds like you almost got to have a masterclass 384 00:21:02,839 --> 00:21:05,960 in writing by working with Niki, because she is such 385 00:21:06,000 --> 00:21:09,400 an excellent journalist and such a wonderful writer, and as 386 00:21:09,440 --> 00:21:12,279 you said, are in a really strong advocate for victims. 387 00:21:12,039 --> 00:21:15,279 That had to have been amazing. And so you appeared 388 00:21:15,319 --> 00:21:19,279 with Nikki at crime Con this past year. Crime CON's 389 00:21:19,279 --> 00:21:22,559 been experience all on its own, but adding to it 390 00:21:22,599 --> 00:21:25,359 the fact that you guys are authors and you had 391 00:21:25,359 --> 00:21:29,039 this documentary come out and you're also again dealing with 392 00:21:29,079 --> 00:21:32,480 this you are victims of crime? What was crime con 393 00:21:32,599 --> 00:21:34,480 like for you? 394 00:21:36,119 --> 00:21:38,799 Speaker 6: So that was this year was our second crime con 395 00:21:39,160 --> 00:21:41,000 our first one we did right after the book was 396 00:21:41,039 --> 00:21:44,160 released in twenty twenty one, and Niki had done one 397 00:21:44,240 --> 00:21:47,200 I think the year before for Chasing Cosby with the 398 00:21:47,240 --> 00:21:50,839 Cosby Survivors, and when she proposed us, Hey, do you 399 00:21:50,920 --> 00:21:52,720 want to do this thing? And I was like, excuse me, 400 00:21:52,759 --> 00:21:54,400 what crime con? 401 00:21:54,440 --> 00:21:54,839 Speaker 3: What is it? 402 00:21:55,680 --> 00:21:58,000 Speaker 6: They really got a con for everything, don't they. Okay, 403 00:21:58,440 --> 00:22:02,680 that's sure, let's try this out. And in twenty twenty 404 00:22:02,720 --> 00:22:07,519 one it was still pandemic ish, so it wasn't as big, 405 00:22:07,519 --> 00:22:09,160 but still we spoke in front of I think like 406 00:22:09,200 --> 00:22:12,200 five hundred people and that was like, that was huge 407 00:22:12,200 --> 00:22:14,880 for us. That was scary and we're not public speakers, 408 00:22:14,880 --> 00:22:17,839 so it was yeah, very intimidating. And then this year 409 00:22:17,880 --> 00:22:20,680 we spoke in a ballroom that held thirty five hundred people. 410 00:22:20,799 --> 00:22:22,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, it was massive. 411 00:22:22,960 --> 00:22:26,279 Speaker 6: It was crazy, and so it was a whole different ballgame. 412 00:22:26,319 --> 00:22:29,920 An entire resort was crime con fan. It was just 413 00:22:30,359 --> 00:22:32,720 so we were walking through to get to our room 414 00:22:32,799 --> 00:22:35,400 and we have people like hey, and you're like, oh, wow, 415 00:22:35,480 --> 00:22:39,559 people know who we are. This is strange, and yeah, 416 00:22:39,680 --> 00:22:43,279 it's it was all a lot to process, but very overall, 417 00:22:43,400 --> 00:22:49,640 very positive. Everyone was so gracious, so respectful, and yeah, 418 00:22:49,759 --> 00:22:52,759 speaking in a room of that many people, you feel 419 00:22:53,359 --> 00:22:56,599 everyone's connection and energy, and so it was really nice 420 00:22:56,599 --> 00:23:00,400 to make jokes and show our personality a little bit 421 00:23:00,440 --> 00:23:04,920 more and have people respond and laugh and gasp and 422 00:23:04,960 --> 00:23:08,559 when in real time. So that was really it was unique. 423 00:23:08,720 --> 00:23:10,000 It was really cool. 424 00:23:10,240 --> 00:23:12,880 Speaker 2: So you felt well treated by the audience. You felt 425 00:23:12,880 --> 00:23:16,039 like they were supportive. Yes, of the two of you 426 00:23:16,079 --> 00:23:17,720 as survivors, Yeah. 427 00:23:17,519 --> 00:23:18,559 Speaker 3: We did. Ye. 428 00:23:19,559 --> 00:23:24,200 Speaker 7: Yeah, there was American Nightmare obviously did quite well on Netflix. 429 00:23:24,400 --> 00:23:26,319 I think it was number one after its first day. 430 00:23:26,839 --> 00:23:30,240 In our hometown, people recognize us and sometimes people will 431 00:23:30,240 --> 00:23:32,920 come up. But at Crime Con, you know that Robbably 432 00:23:33,000 --> 00:23:35,400 everyone watched it. If they're going to crime they probably 433 00:23:35,440 --> 00:23:38,319 watched the through crime documentary of the year. At the point, 434 00:23:38,680 --> 00:23:41,400 it's a little overwhelming. But then most people, if they 435 00:23:41,440 --> 00:23:45,200 came up, they're just really nice and supportive. And but 436 00:23:45,359 --> 00:23:48,200 it's strange, just like walk through a lobby and take 437 00:23:48,640 --> 00:23:52,240 it took half an hour to get to our day 438 00:23:52,359 --> 00:23:56,079 because people were like but everyone was really nice and play. 439 00:23:56,119 --> 00:23:59,240 It was just you're like, oh, yeah, this show is big. 440 00:23:59,440 --> 00:24:01,160 Like that was hard to wrap your head around when 441 00:24:01,160 --> 00:24:04,079 you see whoever millions of views or something, but you're like, 442 00:24:04,079 --> 00:24:07,200 oh yo, this is a that show struck a chord 443 00:24:07,359 --> 00:24:08,200 with the audience. 444 00:24:09,240 --> 00:24:13,839 Speaker 6: And also being able to meet other survivors and people 445 00:24:13,920 --> 00:24:16,799 who we look up to and to meet them in 446 00:24:16,839 --> 00:24:19,640 person and hear that they look up to us. 447 00:24:19,759 --> 00:24:22,319 Speaker 3: It was just like what you wait, well, so it was. 448 00:24:22,880 --> 00:24:27,319 Speaker 6: It was really yeah, a very unique and empowering situation 449 00:24:27,400 --> 00:24:29,960 because you really did feel like you're coming together for 450 00:24:30,039 --> 00:24:33,200 a common goal and that was special. 451 00:24:33,759 --> 00:24:36,440 Speaker 2: You're listening to mind over Murder. We'll be right back 452 00:24:36,680 --> 00:24:44,319 after this word from our sponsors. We're back here at 453 00:24:44,359 --> 00:24:48,000 mindover Murder. Before we get back to the podcast, just 454 00:24:48,039 --> 00:24:50,440 wanted to remind you that we have a go fundme 455 00:24:50,640 --> 00:24:54,319 effort going on right now. This campaign is designed to 456 00:24:54,319 --> 00:24:57,799 help us raise funds to help promote Mind over Murder 457 00:24:58,160 --> 00:25:03,079 and specifically to push the Colonial Parkway murders investigation forward. 458 00:25:03,799 --> 00:25:05,839 We'd love it if you could support us in any 459 00:25:05,839 --> 00:25:09,839 way that you can. Any donation from five dollars to 460 00:25:09,920 --> 00:25:12,880 whatever you can afford is very much appreciated and will 461 00:25:12,920 --> 00:25:15,759 be incredibly helpful. The link is in the show notes 462 00:25:15,920 --> 00:25:19,599 and in our social media pages. As always, thanks for 463 00:25:19,640 --> 00:25:23,200 your support. Now back to Mind over Murder. 464 00:25:24,039 --> 00:25:27,319 Speaker 5: You do get a whole mutual admiration society at crime Con. 465 00:25:27,559 --> 00:25:29,880 And I had told Bill as soon as I arrived, 466 00:25:29,920 --> 00:25:31,880 I said, I have to meet Denise and Aaron. This 467 00:25:32,000 --> 00:25:34,039 is non negotiable. I have to find them at some 468 00:25:34,119 --> 00:25:38,079 point or another. And luckily Nikki texted me and was like, okay, 469 00:25:38,359 --> 00:25:41,200 I have them, come find them. But it was definitely 470 00:25:41,240 --> 00:25:44,400 one of our highlights was being able to spend time 471 00:25:44,440 --> 00:25:46,480 with you both and get to talk to you about 472 00:25:46,519 --> 00:25:49,160 these sorts of the kind of sticky issues that come 473 00:25:49,240 --> 00:25:52,839 up with crime. True crime is it's as much entertainment 474 00:25:52,880 --> 00:25:55,160 as anything else, and I think that's a little hard 475 00:25:55,200 --> 00:25:57,839 to deal with when you're a victim of crime. 476 00:25:58,640 --> 00:26:01,039 Speaker 7: Yeah, I think there's always to do true crime that 477 00:26:01,200 --> 00:26:03,920 I would say is more ethical or more valuable. And 478 00:26:03,960 --> 00:26:08,200 then there's the ways where it's a little yeah, and 479 00:26:08,400 --> 00:26:12,119 taking advantage of people suffering. And at least our experience 480 00:26:12,119 --> 00:26:15,000 at crime Con that most people were interested in the 481 00:26:15,319 --> 00:26:19,160 human aspect and about the victims and about the suffering 482 00:26:19,200 --> 00:26:21,319 not only just you know, not just us, but like 483 00:26:21,359 --> 00:26:24,920 our families and there's a whole ripple effect, and that's 484 00:26:25,400 --> 00:26:27,519 that should never be taken lightly or ignored. 485 00:26:28,279 --> 00:26:32,359 Speaker 2: I think both Victim f and American Nightmare are ultimately 486 00:26:32,400 --> 00:26:37,400 a survivor's story, the two of you getting through this experience, 487 00:26:37,599 --> 00:26:40,119 and we've talked about it in Mind over Murder before, 488 00:26:40,240 --> 00:26:43,440 the idea that life goes on and that you are 489 00:26:43,519 --> 00:26:47,119 able to move your life forward and focus on the 490 00:26:47,160 --> 00:26:51,279 many positive things in our lives. This ethics and true 491 00:26:51,319 --> 00:26:55,640 crime topic has actually been very prevalent in the last 492 00:26:55,680 --> 00:26:59,240 couple of years at Crime con and other conferences we've attended. 493 00:27:00,000 --> 00:27:02,680 Speaker 7: Thing it should be there. I feel like maybe I 494 00:27:02,680 --> 00:27:05,759 felt like maybe five seven years ago, they're almost all 495 00:27:05,799 --> 00:27:08,200 the true crime stuff as we allude to us about 496 00:27:08,200 --> 00:27:11,200 to perpetrators or like the there's still is app but 497 00:27:11,279 --> 00:27:13,279 there was like the Ted Bundy tapes, there was like 498 00:27:13,440 --> 00:27:15,200 there was a show Damer There's still going to be 499 00:27:15,200 --> 00:27:19,000 a fascination with people who act so outside the norm 500 00:27:19,039 --> 00:27:22,119 of society. The reality is most of the victims are 501 00:27:22,119 --> 00:27:26,400 true crime, just typical people and going through extraordinary things. 502 00:27:26,480 --> 00:27:29,640 And the idea that we all understand what makes the 503 00:27:29,680 --> 00:27:34,920 perpetrator's tick is probably not possible because it's are too complex, 504 00:27:35,000 --> 00:27:38,519 and so spending time there just to me, isn't that appealing. 505 00:27:38,759 --> 00:27:42,880 I rather hear about people overcoming diversity and moving forward. 506 00:27:43,559 --> 00:27:46,359 Speaker 5: One of the things that you alluded to earlier, Denise, 507 00:27:46,599 --> 00:27:49,039 is the fact that victims of crime are not just 508 00:27:49,519 --> 00:27:53,799 victimized one time when the thing actually happens. It happens 509 00:27:53,839 --> 00:27:56,079 again as you make a trip through the legal system 510 00:27:56,200 --> 00:27:59,079 and through the court system, and every time thereafter that 511 00:27:59,119 --> 00:28:01,799 you have to speak about it. As Aaron had said earlier, 512 00:28:01,839 --> 00:28:04,440 you were both victims in this case, both of Mueller 513 00:28:04,640 --> 00:28:08,000 and also of the detectives at VALOPD who did not 514 00:28:08,119 --> 00:28:11,680 take your case seriously. How have you dealt with the 515 00:28:11,759 --> 00:28:14,960 trauma that comes with those two events, and what tips 516 00:28:15,000 --> 00:28:17,759 do you have for people who also are dealing with 517 00:28:17,839 --> 00:28:20,839 trauma from the legal system and from law enforcement. 518 00:28:21,440 --> 00:28:25,160 Speaker 6: I think the biggest thing is just number one, to 519 00:28:25,160 --> 00:28:28,319 always believe in yourself. And that's hard to do, especially 520 00:28:28,400 --> 00:28:31,160 when you're being gas lit over and over again by 521 00:28:31,160 --> 00:28:34,000 people who are in a position of power authority and 522 00:28:34,039 --> 00:28:37,359 who are supposedly supposed to be the trained professionals. As 523 00:28:37,440 --> 00:28:41,640 we experienced in our case, they's nothing professional about most 524 00:28:41,680 --> 00:28:44,880 of what they did. Yeah, So it's hard because again, 525 00:28:44,920 --> 00:28:46,799 when you go through a crime, you can't help but 526 00:28:46,920 --> 00:28:50,240 overanalyze what you did, what you could have done, and 527 00:28:50,359 --> 00:28:52,960 everything we did and how we acted as victims was 528 00:28:53,039 --> 00:28:57,440 used against us. So yeah, it's hard. It can become 529 00:28:57,480 --> 00:29:02,039 a really dark place. And that's where like having our 530 00:29:02,079 --> 00:29:05,359 support system was really helpful. We were lucky to have 531 00:29:05,480 --> 00:29:08,319 each other and stay by each other's sides. We never 532 00:29:08,359 --> 00:29:11,680 blamed one another for any of anything, and we were 533 00:29:11,720 --> 00:29:14,319 able to really either like one of us would be 534 00:29:14,400 --> 00:29:16,680 the strong one picking the other one up, or we 535 00:29:16,759 --> 00:29:19,519 both were like, okay, we're just like we've got to 536 00:29:19,559 --> 00:29:21,440 call it a night and we're just gonna sit on 537 00:29:21,480 --> 00:29:23,519 the couch and do nothing. But then once we get 538 00:29:23,519 --> 00:29:26,440 the energy, okay, then let's keep fighting. Let's moving forward. 539 00:29:26,880 --> 00:29:29,839 Hearing other survivors speak out was a really powerful thing 540 00:29:29,920 --> 00:29:33,119 for us too, just saying, Okay, it is possible, we 541 00:29:33,160 --> 00:29:35,680 can do it. They're doing it. How much it's helping 542 00:29:35,759 --> 00:29:37,599 us to do it. Maybe we can help other people 543 00:29:37,680 --> 00:29:40,799 if we speak out. So really trying to like stay 544 00:29:41,200 --> 00:29:45,440 to the truth of what your lived experiences, and then 545 00:29:45,519 --> 00:29:49,279 all the little things in life, like finding gratitude and 546 00:29:49,720 --> 00:29:50,680 going to therapy. 547 00:29:50,880 --> 00:29:53,519 Speaker 3: You need help, and it's okay to ask for help. 548 00:29:53,640 --> 00:29:56,440 Speaker 6: That's really a big thing in any capacity, whether it's 549 00:29:56,480 --> 00:30:00,440 just can you make me dinner tonight? Just I mean, 550 00:30:00,440 --> 00:30:02,000 those are just a few things off the top of 551 00:30:02,039 --> 00:30:03,119 my head. Yeah. 552 00:30:03,160 --> 00:30:06,680 Speaker 7: And with law enforcement, number one thing is get a lawyer. 553 00:30:06,799 --> 00:30:09,480 Regardless of what happened. You just need to turn any 554 00:30:09,559 --> 00:30:12,160 arrest in the room and they will manipulate and they 555 00:30:12,200 --> 00:30:14,720 know the rules and you don't, and you're, yeah, I 556 00:30:14,880 --> 00:30:18,359 made a mistake of having the innocence mindset, like they 557 00:30:18,400 --> 00:30:21,599 will follow the facts. And law enforcement is human and 558 00:30:21,759 --> 00:30:25,200 they have biases, they have confirmation biased tunnel vision. It's 559 00:30:25,240 --> 00:30:27,279 not just in our case when it's just ballet hose 560 00:30:27,319 --> 00:30:30,279 the FBI, it's the countless supervisors who looked at this 561 00:30:30,400 --> 00:30:32,400 case and didn't take a step back. So you need 562 00:30:32,440 --> 00:30:35,160 attorney there too, so that you have at least someone 563 00:30:35,200 --> 00:30:37,599 in your corner who will actually let you know what 564 00:30:37,599 --> 00:30:40,079 the rules are, because even like the Marianda rights have 565 00:30:40,160 --> 00:30:42,559 been dwindled down through the courts over the years. You 566 00:30:42,599 --> 00:30:45,759 think there's court protections, there's not protections. So you need attorney. 567 00:30:46,000 --> 00:30:49,119 And the other thing is with law enforcements, ask questions, 568 00:30:49,119 --> 00:30:51,559 don't accept their like if they say this is how 569 00:30:51,599 --> 00:30:53,759 things done, ask why. If they can't explain, then you 570 00:30:53,759 --> 00:30:55,920 ask again, and you ask again, because they should be 571 00:30:55,920 --> 00:30:58,319 able to explain it, and unfortunately it's it's not like 572 00:30:58,319 --> 00:31:02,519 any other profession. You need a plumber to come your house, 573 00:31:02,599 --> 00:31:04,640 you can shop around and find the best plumber. You're 574 00:31:04,680 --> 00:31:06,960 going to be stuck with this law enforcement. They get 575 00:31:06,960 --> 00:31:08,720 assigned to you. You can't get rid of them, even 576 00:31:08,839 --> 00:31:11,119 when they have conflicts of interest. So then you need 577 00:31:11,200 --> 00:31:14,279 to actually ask questions and document what they're answering and 578 00:31:14,480 --> 00:31:16,640 treat it as if you could fire them if you're 579 00:31:16,680 --> 00:31:19,519 able to, because we got often we got told this 580 00:31:19,599 --> 00:31:22,440 is how things are done, and then you find out no, 581 00:31:22,559 --> 00:31:24,960 this is one. If this is how things are done, 582 00:31:25,000 --> 00:31:31,160 then you need to upgrade. Or two. Two they're going like, 583 00:31:31,240 --> 00:31:33,720 this is not how things are done, and that's probably 584 00:31:33,839 --> 00:31:36,519 the one and best things dude. So you just can't 585 00:31:36,519 --> 00:31:39,759 inherently trust them because people make mistakes, even if they're 586 00:31:39,920 --> 00:31:42,640 law enforcement officers are trying to do their best, which 587 00:31:42,720 --> 00:31:44,400 most of them are trying to do their best, they 588 00:31:44,440 --> 00:31:48,160 make mistakes and you just can't accept their version otherwise 589 00:31:48,200 --> 00:31:49,519 you'll get railroad. 590 00:31:49,720 --> 00:31:52,599 Speaker 6: And one of the biggest advantages we had was to 591 00:31:52,640 --> 00:31:55,559 be able to consult with Aaron's brother who's an FBI agent, 592 00:31:55,960 --> 00:31:59,319 Like how many people have a family member who is 593 00:31:59,640 --> 00:32:03,359 in the FBI and we talk to him endlessly about 594 00:32:03,359 --> 00:32:05,279 certain things and you know it shouldn't have been done 595 00:32:05,319 --> 00:32:10,200 this way, or this is how some investigators are trained 596 00:32:10,440 --> 00:32:14,240 to interrogate. And so we learned a lot through him 597 00:32:14,440 --> 00:32:17,759 and learn what questions to ask, because it's a really 598 00:32:17,920 --> 00:32:21,319 convoluted and tricky system to go up against. 599 00:32:21,960 --> 00:32:25,640 Speaker 5: What message do you have for anyone in law enforcement 600 00:32:25,880 --> 00:32:29,640 who is inclined to look at crime victims with skepticism 601 00:32:29,680 --> 00:32:34,720 and hostility other than the obvious string of obscenities that 602 00:32:35,079 --> 00:32:36,559 I would shout if it were. 603 00:32:36,440 --> 00:32:40,920 Speaker 7: Me, I think they need to educate themselves on how 604 00:32:40,920 --> 00:32:44,240 interrogations have been historically done in America and they should 605 00:32:44,279 --> 00:32:47,559 read about that through and not ignore scholars on this. 606 00:32:47,799 --> 00:32:51,559 Sometimes it seems that law enforcement all those are the academics. 607 00:32:51,559 --> 00:32:53,039 We don't really need to listen to them because they're 608 00:32:53,039 --> 00:32:54,799 not doing the job day in, day out. 609 00:32:55,119 --> 00:32:58,440 Speaker 6: Or the psychologist, Oh, that's a psychologist's job, Like if 610 00:32:58,440 --> 00:33:01,559 you're dealing with human beings on a daily basis, especially 611 00:33:01,599 --> 00:33:05,000 going through extreme extraordinary traumatic events. 612 00:33:05,279 --> 00:33:09,240 Speaker 3: Then you should have a little understanding baseline of psychology 613 00:33:09,400 --> 00:33:13,039 and how people going through trauma act and behave and feel. 614 00:33:13,400 --> 00:33:15,880 Speaker 7: It's a complex problem. It's really hard to solve crimes, 615 00:33:15,960 --> 00:33:18,960 and they deal with people going through the worst times 616 00:33:18,960 --> 00:33:20,839 of their lives. They deal with people lying to them. 617 00:33:21,039 --> 00:33:24,400 So there's ways to be skewed and have their perspectives 618 00:33:24,400 --> 00:33:27,400 shifted because of the job they do. I don't envy 619 00:33:27,559 --> 00:33:31,680 that job. It's very difficult. Like every profession, if they're 620 00:33:31,680 --> 00:33:35,079 going to move forward, they should learn from other professions. 621 00:33:35,119 --> 00:33:37,160 So I just we work in the medical field like 622 00:33:37,319 --> 00:33:39,640 I want people. I want to listen to researchers. I 623 00:33:39,640 --> 00:33:41,880 want to listen to psychologists because they can give insight 624 00:33:41,960 --> 00:33:44,359 and help me do my job better. You can't be 625 00:33:44,799 --> 00:33:48,240 everything at once. And understanding that confirmation bias is a thing, 626 00:33:48,359 --> 00:33:50,880 understand that tunnel vision is a thing. We have our 627 00:33:50,880 --> 00:33:54,200 own implicit biases, Like how do you set the system 628 00:33:54,359 --> 00:33:57,920 to reduce the impact of those which there are systems 629 00:33:57,920 --> 00:34:00,359 out there. That's what I would want to to do 630 00:34:00,480 --> 00:34:04,039 is just learn and not try to silo themselves off. 631 00:34:04,079 --> 00:34:06,799 But I think it's like us versus them and number 632 00:34:07,000 --> 00:34:09,800 and probably the biggest thing is that they're part of 633 00:34:09,840 --> 00:34:12,159 the community. They are paid by the public, they are 634 00:34:12,159 --> 00:34:14,760 public servants, and so they should kind of try view 635 00:34:14,760 --> 00:34:18,800 themselves more as guardians than warriors. And unfortunately, again there's 636 00:34:18,920 --> 00:34:21,280 very dangerous situations they're in, but most of the time 637 00:34:21,519 --> 00:34:24,199 they need to act more as guardians. And we fortunately 638 00:34:24,239 --> 00:34:25,880 since American Nightmare, I have been able to speak to 639 00:34:25,880 --> 00:34:28,440 different groups of law enforcement. There are playing officers out 640 00:34:28,440 --> 00:34:30,639 there who know that there's better ways to do this, 641 00:34:31,000 --> 00:34:34,519 and not only just are more effective ways of questioning, 642 00:34:34,559 --> 00:34:38,360 there's more effective ways to get to solve problems. And 643 00:34:38,400 --> 00:34:40,960 so it's not even just about like traditional training, it's 644 00:34:41,000 --> 00:34:43,320 actually just improving how you do your job. 645 00:34:43,880 --> 00:34:47,519 Speaker 2: How would you contrast the work done in your case 646 00:34:47,880 --> 00:34:51,519 in terms of the Vallejo, California Police Department and the 647 00:34:51,639 --> 00:34:55,159 FBI in terms of what's your takeaway now with it? 648 00:34:55,360 --> 00:34:58,880 Several years have gone by and life has moved on, 649 00:34:59,000 --> 00:35:00,559 but you've probably had a chance and so to think 650 00:35:00,599 --> 00:35:03,679 about this a bit. What's your take on the agencies 651 00:35:03,719 --> 00:35:04,599 that were involved? 652 00:35:05,280 --> 00:35:10,480 Speaker 7: They have, particularly Vallejo as a culture that does not 653 00:35:10,679 --> 00:35:13,800 care about accountability for their officers and I don't say 654 00:35:13,800 --> 00:35:16,880 that lightly. They do not care as a whole to 655 00:35:17,000 --> 00:35:20,119 hold their officers to account. This is a department that 656 00:35:20,599 --> 00:35:23,159 group of their officers bend the tips or badges to 657 00:35:23,199 --> 00:35:25,519 celebrate killings in the line of duty, and then of 658 00:35:25,519 --> 00:35:28,920 those officers have been punished. Detective Mustard on our case, 659 00:35:29,239 --> 00:35:32,599 lied on sworn statements in our civil case, has withheld 660 00:35:32,639 --> 00:35:36,480 evidence in other cases, destroyed evidence in other cases. That 661 00:35:36,880 --> 00:35:38,639 these are the things we know about. He's going to 662 00:35:38,639 --> 00:35:41,719 retire with full benefits. He was promoted. They actually lowered 663 00:35:41,760 --> 00:35:44,480 the standards to promote him. So it's a culture that 664 00:35:44,639 --> 00:35:49,480 cares about protecting themselves over protecting society or republic. With 665 00:35:49,559 --> 00:35:52,360 the FBI, we're fortunate. I know my brother, I know 666 00:35:52,440 --> 00:35:54,440 a lot of colleagues. I know the f B. I 667 00:35:54,440 --> 00:35:58,559 can do amazing work, and in this case they decide 668 00:35:58,599 --> 00:36:03,400 to I really blamed the supervisors, not only just agent Sesma, 669 00:36:03,440 --> 00:36:06,679 but the supervisors who knew that Agent Sesma had the 670 00:36:06,719 --> 00:36:09,239 conflict of interest and kept him on the case. And 671 00:36:09,440 --> 00:36:12,679 we have found out he's been promoted as well. And 672 00:36:12,760 --> 00:36:16,159 so it's hard to answer our question because they didn't 673 00:36:16,199 --> 00:36:19,159 show accountability, they didn't make changes, they didn't do anything. 674 00:36:19,400 --> 00:36:21,360 They just said it was a crazy case, no one 675 00:36:21,400 --> 00:36:25,079 could solve it, so therefore it's okay what happened, when 676 00:36:25,079 --> 00:36:27,639 the reality is this case was actually should have been 677 00:36:27,679 --> 00:36:30,440 solved in the first day if they just callowed basic evidence. 678 00:36:31,480 --> 00:36:31,960 Speaker 1: Wow. 679 00:36:32,559 --> 00:36:37,960 Speaker 5: As survivors of a very high profile crime, you clearly 680 00:36:37,960 --> 00:36:41,360 have had to develop some survival strategies to get through 681 00:36:41,440 --> 00:36:44,400 the last ten years or so. You've talked to us 682 00:36:44,400 --> 00:36:47,840 some about your best practices for dealing with LUE enforcement. 683 00:36:48,519 --> 00:36:51,280 Talk a little bit about what are your survival strategies 684 00:36:51,320 --> 00:36:54,719 for dealing with the news media and social media, especially 685 00:36:54,719 --> 00:36:58,039 because social media is just so invasive. 686 00:37:00,119 --> 00:37:04,440 Speaker 6: Really, we really stayed away from social media for most 687 00:37:04,719 --> 00:37:08,760 of this time. I just only got an Instagram account 688 00:37:08,800 --> 00:37:11,199 in twenty twenty one when we released the book, and 689 00:37:11,280 --> 00:37:13,519 even then I wasn't really active on it. Of course, 690 00:37:13,559 --> 00:37:16,239 with the Netflix series and people across the world watching, 691 00:37:16,760 --> 00:37:20,480 there's a lot more exposure. I did battle with before 692 00:37:20,519 --> 00:37:21,960 the show coming out. 693 00:37:22,239 --> 00:37:24,559 Speaker 3: What do I do? Do I become private? Do I 694 00:37:26,239 --> 00:37:28,800 how do I navigate this? Do I want to hide? 695 00:37:29,199 --> 00:37:32,239 Speaker 6: Considering how bad it was in the past with people 696 00:37:32,280 --> 00:37:35,480 reaching out on social media? But ultimately our goal is 697 00:37:35,519 --> 00:37:38,639 to continue this conversation. It's to speak in front of 698 00:37:38,719 --> 00:37:43,679 law enforcement. It's to advocate and meet other survivors or 699 00:37:43,800 --> 00:37:47,400 influential people that could help us possibly make change. So 700 00:37:47,840 --> 00:37:50,440 ultimately decided, Okay, I'm going to be public and I'm 701 00:37:50,480 --> 00:37:53,320 just gonna try to not. 702 00:37:53,400 --> 00:37:55,280 Speaker 3: Let some of the comments get to me. 703 00:37:55,480 --> 00:37:59,559 Speaker 6: Thankfully, overwhelmingly it was very positive, and there's still people 704 00:37:59,559 --> 00:38:03,000 who are just awful. Again, that's where therapy comes in. 705 00:38:03,199 --> 00:38:06,639 I've been in and out, there's points of stability. I've 706 00:38:06,679 --> 00:38:10,119 tried a number of different types of therapy. After American 707 00:38:10,239 --> 00:38:13,360 Nightmare coming out, I just for the first time did EMDR. 708 00:38:13,679 --> 00:38:14,679 Speaker 3: Okay, what's that? 709 00:38:14,840 --> 00:38:15,719 Speaker 2: I don't know what that is. 710 00:38:16,320 --> 00:38:23,119 Speaker 6: It's eye movement, Desensitization and reprocessing EMDR. So you in short, 711 00:38:23,559 --> 00:38:27,960 the therapist can guide the patient through bilateral alternating movements, 712 00:38:28,000 --> 00:38:32,480 either by lateral eye movements or by bilateral tapping. It's 713 00:38:32,480 --> 00:38:36,679 supposed to simulate the rem cycle of sleep, which is 714 00:38:36,719 --> 00:38:40,719 where they believe that the deep memories are being processed. 715 00:38:40,719 --> 00:38:42,920 And with a traumatic memory, it's like an injury to 716 00:38:42,960 --> 00:38:47,079 the brain. It doesn't get processed properly. So they're trying 717 00:38:47,119 --> 00:38:49,440 to allow you to go back to that. Really traumatic 718 00:38:49,920 --> 00:38:54,079 memory and process it in a safer place. And for me, 719 00:38:54,119 --> 00:38:57,000 at first, it was difficult moments because I've built up 720 00:38:57,079 --> 00:39:00,440 so many barriers around those memories. So I actually did 721 00:39:00,480 --> 00:39:04,320 it assisted with ketamine that really allows you to go 722 00:39:04,480 --> 00:39:07,840 deeper into the brain and open up some of the 723 00:39:07,880 --> 00:39:12,760 confinements of reality. And yeah, it strips away some of 724 00:39:12,800 --> 00:39:15,320 those barriers and allows you to really process it in 725 00:39:15,559 --> 00:39:16,360 a deep way. 726 00:39:16,400 --> 00:39:16,719 Speaker 5: And I. 727 00:39:18,320 --> 00:39:22,719 Speaker 6: Haven't felt so good since this whole thing has happened. 728 00:39:22,760 --> 00:39:24,519 I really do feel like some of those memories are 729 00:39:24,559 --> 00:39:28,679 fully processed. And the biggest things that I've found as 730 00:39:29,119 --> 00:39:33,119 my physical self, I'm not as sick and anxious and 731 00:39:33,239 --> 00:39:36,719 just really like in a trauma state, So that's been 732 00:39:36,760 --> 00:39:40,360 really helpful. But also other things were super helpful too, 733 00:39:40,519 --> 00:39:41,519 regular talk therapy. 734 00:39:41,559 --> 00:39:42,480 Speaker 3: At first, just having. 735 00:39:42,280 --> 00:39:44,599 Speaker 6: A space to be able to say what happened and 736 00:39:44,639 --> 00:39:47,159 have someone listen, and then just by talking can help you. 737 00:39:47,119 --> 00:39:48,000 Speaker 3: Process through it. 738 00:39:48,079 --> 00:39:51,440 Speaker 6: I tried narrow feedback training, which is trying to retrain 739 00:39:51,519 --> 00:39:54,760 the wavelengths in the brain in certain areas of the brain, 740 00:39:54,960 --> 00:39:57,199 trying to get you into a calmer state because you've 741 00:39:57,440 --> 00:40:01,239 basically trained yourself to be hypervigilant and just always on 742 00:40:01,679 --> 00:40:05,039 all the time, and that's not sustainable long term. And 743 00:40:05,519 --> 00:40:09,400 exhaustion was a big symptom of mine, just feeling exhausted 744 00:40:09,440 --> 00:40:11,320 all the time. So it's nice to finally feel like 745 00:40:11,360 --> 00:40:14,519 I've got my energy back that allows me to feel 746 00:40:14,559 --> 00:40:18,400 like I have the capability to keep fighting, keep moving forward. 747 00:40:18,840 --> 00:40:21,960 Speaker 3: So again it's like a trial and error. Does this work, Okay, this. 748 00:40:21,960 --> 00:40:24,280 Speaker 6: Isn't working, or this did work for this period of time, 749 00:40:24,360 --> 00:40:27,920 but now maybe I could try something new and something different. 750 00:40:28,199 --> 00:40:31,480 And continuing to talk and be vulnerable and open up 751 00:40:31,480 --> 00:40:35,320 with people, you learn what their strategies are and it 752 00:40:35,360 --> 00:40:37,159 helps you learn and grow. 753 00:40:37,719 --> 00:40:39,719 Speaker 7: As far as like the media, if able in the 754 00:40:39,719 --> 00:40:42,159 media says you need to tell this now or no 755 00:40:42,199 --> 00:40:43,880 one's going to listen, and they try to put you 756 00:40:43,960 --> 00:40:46,920 on some sort of arbitrary deadline, just ignore them and 757 00:40:47,239 --> 00:40:49,639 never work with that person. We got that a lot 758 00:40:49,760 --> 00:40:51,599 early on. If you don't tell now, no one's going 759 00:40:51,679 --> 00:40:53,400 to listen to it. If you don't tell now, no 760 00:40:53,400 --> 00:40:55,159 one's going to listen to it. Then years later we 761 00:40:55,199 --> 00:40:57,280 still got we had people saying, if you don't tell 762 00:40:57,360 --> 00:40:58,880 now and no one's going to listen, I'm like, huh, 763 00:40:58,880 --> 00:41:01,159 this is strange. It's been seven years and you're still 764 00:41:01,199 --> 00:41:03,280 saying the exact same thing. I think people are don't 765 00:41:03,320 --> 00:41:05,599 listen to it. It doesn't matter because you don't want 766 00:41:05,599 --> 00:41:08,000 to be in that pressured situation. If someone's doing that, 767 00:41:08,039 --> 00:41:10,280 you know that they're looking to try to capture a 768 00:41:10,320 --> 00:41:13,880 deadline for their job, not necessarily worrying about your healing 769 00:41:14,119 --> 00:41:16,840 or how you feel in that moment. So the journalists 770 00:41:16,880 --> 00:41:21,039 and podcasters who care will go on your schedule, we'll 771 00:41:21,079 --> 00:41:23,840 figure it out like you two did, where we've been 772 00:41:24,159 --> 00:41:26,960 trying to do this interview for nine months or something, 773 00:41:27,079 --> 00:41:31,079 so you're very patient, Yeah, and that's the people who 774 00:41:31,360 --> 00:41:34,000 care will go. They understand that life happens or that 775 00:41:34,079 --> 00:41:36,400 you need more time processing. They're not trying to push 776 00:41:36,480 --> 00:41:38,519 you into So if you feel if you're a victim 777 00:41:38,559 --> 00:41:41,599 and you feel pushed by someone in media, then that's 778 00:41:41,639 --> 00:41:43,239 what they're exactly what they're trying to do, and that's 779 00:41:43,239 --> 00:41:45,519 not going to be healthy for you. Anytime that we've 780 00:41:45,800 --> 00:41:47,920 even gone down that road, that's when we've had to 781 00:41:48,239 --> 00:41:50,559 reverse and try to dig our way out, and that's 782 00:41:50,599 --> 00:41:52,719 that's really hard to do. So it's just better never 783 00:41:52,800 --> 00:41:53,960 to go that route. 784 00:41:54,400 --> 00:41:55,760 Speaker 3: Yeah, really listen to your gut. 785 00:41:56,079 --> 00:41:58,400 Speaker 6: We've had situations where we're like, oh, I don't know 786 00:41:58,440 --> 00:42:00,599 if this feels right, and then we enter it like yeah, no, 787 00:42:00,639 --> 00:42:02,719 it's not right, and we just got to a point 788 00:42:02,800 --> 00:42:05,280 that you go through enough. Okay, whoops, we shouldn't have 789 00:42:05,320 --> 00:42:07,559 done that to go you know what, trust in yourself. 790 00:42:07,679 --> 00:42:10,519 If it doesn't feel right, if it doesn't align with 791 00:42:10,639 --> 00:42:13,239 your goals and your values, then you don't need it. 792 00:42:13,679 --> 00:42:15,239 Speaker 3: You don't need any of it. 793 00:42:15,360 --> 00:42:19,320 Speaker 6: But everyone's in that profession to sell themselves. I'm the 794 00:42:19,360 --> 00:42:21,400 person that you need to talk to. I'm the person 795 00:42:21,440 --> 00:42:24,440 that's going to get you there. And it's not about you, 796 00:42:24,559 --> 00:42:25,480 it's about them. 797 00:42:25,679 --> 00:42:27,599 Speaker 3: It's hard road to navigate. 798 00:42:27,639 --> 00:42:30,760 Speaker 2: When you go out and speak to law enforcement agencies. 799 00:42:31,119 --> 00:42:34,440 Are they open to this? Obviously? The book and the 800 00:42:34,480 --> 00:42:40,119 series and your public comments including today are often extremely 801 00:42:40,199 --> 00:42:44,000 critical because you're highlighting all of or at least some 802 00:42:44,079 --> 00:42:48,599 of the problems that you encountered as initially crime victims 803 00:42:48,880 --> 00:42:52,280 and then trying to move your life forward and put 804 00:42:52,320 --> 00:42:55,159 it all back together. How does it go over with 805 00:42:55,280 --> 00:43:00,039 our friends in law enforcement when you're talking about your experiences. 806 00:43:00,119 --> 00:43:02,719 Speaker 6: Say jokingly, I don't think we're critical. I think we're 807 00:43:02,760 --> 00:43:03,440 being honest. 808 00:43:03,800 --> 00:43:04,960 Speaker 3: Okay, I agree with it. 809 00:43:05,559 --> 00:43:09,440 Speaker 6: I know the groups of law enforcement that we've spoken 810 00:43:09,480 --> 00:43:13,199 in front of, they're already on the right side in 811 00:43:13,239 --> 00:43:16,119 a way that they're asking us to come speak. They 812 00:43:16,159 --> 00:43:19,159 already want to hear and have the intention of learning 813 00:43:19,199 --> 00:43:21,920 and growing. There might be some people in the audience. 814 00:43:21,960 --> 00:43:24,360 I don't know if they're like forced to go by 815 00:43:24,360 --> 00:43:26,960 their superiors and if they're but most of the time, 816 00:43:27,239 --> 00:43:30,960 it seems overall the feeling in the room is people 817 00:43:31,519 --> 00:43:34,599 really do genuinely care and they want to learn. We 818 00:43:34,679 --> 00:43:37,719 did our first one we did back in March. Misty, 819 00:43:38,440 --> 00:43:41,199 the detective who linked the cases, she was there with us, 820 00:43:41,199 --> 00:43:42,920 and she spoke a little bit, and at the end 821 00:43:42,960 --> 00:43:45,199 of it she had said that one of the officers. 822 00:43:44,760 --> 00:43:47,119 Speaker 3: Came up to her and had admitted to her. 823 00:43:47,119 --> 00:43:49,559 Speaker 6: You know what, I was a mustard And then I 824 00:43:49,599 --> 00:43:51,880 saw that show and I realized, oh my god, I 825 00:43:51,920 --> 00:43:52,599 need to change. 826 00:43:53,039 --> 00:43:54,639 Speaker 3: And Misty was like, oh my god, I can't believe 827 00:43:54,639 --> 00:43:57,800 you admitted to me. But that's huge. 828 00:43:58,079 --> 00:44:02,960 Speaker 6: Even if they're there willingly and are coming from a 829 00:44:03,000 --> 00:44:07,000 critical standpoint as far as not really trusting us, they're 830 00:44:07,000 --> 00:44:10,599 going to listen and either they change. They don't change, 831 00:44:10,639 --> 00:44:14,159 they're open to it. Really, we want people who need 832 00:44:14,199 --> 00:44:17,920 to change to hear us out, and also to the 833 00:44:18,039 --> 00:44:19,519 organizers of these events. 834 00:44:20,000 --> 00:44:22,360 Speaker 3: Obviously they care. So we feel protected. 835 00:44:22,440 --> 00:44:25,920 Speaker 6: We don't feel like we're going to be attacked, and 836 00:44:26,079 --> 00:44:29,159 even if someone did, I feel like we would be supported. Again, 837 00:44:29,199 --> 00:44:32,559 it's overall been very positive and it's been encouraging to 838 00:44:32,760 --> 00:44:35,679 connect with people in a position of power who are 839 00:44:35,719 --> 00:44:37,480 really cruciading to make change. 840 00:44:37,760 --> 00:44:40,079 Speaker 7: Yeah, where it's going to really change is at the 841 00:44:40,119 --> 00:44:43,519 grassroots level. He is Mustard's example, but you Mustard was 842 00:44:43,559 --> 00:44:46,800 trained a certain way, he was mentored in a certain way. Unfortunately, 843 00:44:46,840 --> 00:44:50,159 he's probably mentored people in a particular way. So if 844 00:44:50,159 --> 00:44:53,239 we can get supervisors and people to say, hey, there's 845 00:44:53,239 --> 00:44:57,280 another choice here, there's more options here, we understand it's 846 00:44:57,320 --> 00:44:59,840 a really hard job. No one's expecting place being infallible. 847 00:45:00,800 --> 00:45:02,719 We don't either. In the medical world, we used to 848 00:45:02,719 --> 00:45:05,559 do lobotomies. We don't do those anymore because they don't work. 849 00:45:06,039 --> 00:45:08,559 So part of growing as a profession is to hear 850 00:45:08,639 --> 00:45:12,079 from victims, and often law enforcement has interaction with someone, 851 00:45:12,119 --> 00:45:14,559 never hears from that person again because of the nature 852 00:45:14,599 --> 00:45:17,639 of how legal system works, so to hear from us, 853 00:45:17,679 --> 00:45:20,800 and knowing that my lot of them maybe only watch 854 00:45:20,840 --> 00:45:23,480 American Nightmare, don't know that my brother's an FBI special Agent. 855 00:45:23,519 --> 00:45:26,119 He's also a lieutenant colonel in the Army. So it's 856 00:45:26,159 --> 00:45:29,920 not that we're anti law enforcement. It's not us versus them. 857 00:45:29,960 --> 00:45:32,320 It's just about trying to help and upgrade. And that's 858 00:45:32,800 --> 00:45:35,920 why we go and speak, is that we're there to 859 00:45:36,079 --> 00:45:38,679 provide our perspective and what we have learned over the 860 00:45:38,760 --> 00:45:42,320 years and hopefully that can help them in future cases. 861 00:45:42,639 --> 00:45:45,760 Speaker 6: Yeah, we want to work with law enforcement, not against 862 00:45:45,880 --> 00:45:48,840 law enforcement. And yeah, being in the medical field, like 863 00:45:49,039 --> 00:45:52,280 we have that experience. We are doing what we were 864 00:45:52,320 --> 00:45:56,000 trained to do based on our education, and sometimes we 865 00:45:56,159 --> 00:45:59,400 make the wrong choices. In any profession, really, you need 866 00:45:59,440 --> 00:46:02,320 to take account ability and understand what mistakes you made 867 00:46:02,440 --> 00:46:04,519 and then go, Okay, how do we learn from this? 868 00:46:04,599 --> 00:46:07,039 Because again we're dealing with human beings here. I think 869 00:46:07,079 --> 00:46:09,559 that should be a big priority is okay, how can 870 00:46:09,599 --> 00:46:10,199 I improve? 871 00:46:10,760 --> 00:46:13,440 Speaker 3: I think that is an excellent note to end on. 872 00:46:14,159 --> 00:46:18,800 Speaker 5: The book is Victim f The documentary is American Nightmare, 873 00:46:19,679 --> 00:46:22,440 and you two are some of the bravest people I've 874 00:46:22,480 --> 00:46:24,239 ever met. It is an hour to have you with 875 00:46:24,320 --> 00:46:25,599 us today. Thank you so much. 876 00:46:26,039 --> 00:46:29,039 Speaker 6: We thank you so great talking to you guys. That 877 00:46:29,159 --> 00:46:30,679 is going to do it for this episode of mind 878 00:46:30,679 --> 00:46:34,280 Over Murder. Thank you so much for listening. We'll see 879 00:46:34,320 --> 00:46:34,880 you next time. 880 00:46:44,320 --> 00:46:47,880 Speaker 1: Mind Over Murder is a production of Absolute Zero and 881 00:46:47,920 --> 00:46:49,360 Another Dog Productions. 882 00:46:49,920 --> 00:46:53,280 Speaker 2: Our executive producers are Bill Thomas and Kristin Dilley. 883 00:46:53,599 --> 00:46:56,039 Speaker 1: Our logo art is by Pamela Arnois. 884 00:46:56,679 --> 00:46:58,719 Speaker 2: Our theme music is by Kevin McLeod. 885 00:46:59,239 --> 00:47:03,159 Speaker 1: Mind Over Murder is distributed in partnership with crawl Space Media. 886 00:47:03,960 --> 00:47:07,280 Speaker 2: You can follow us on Facebook, Twitter, or Instagram. 887 00:47:07,320 --> 00:47:09,920 Speaker 1: You can also follow our page on the Colonial Parkway 888 00:47:09,960 --> 00:47:11,800 Murders on Facebook. 889 00:47:11,559 --> 00:47:14,599 Speaker 2: And finally, you can follow Bill Thomas on Twitter at 890 00:47:14,639 --> 00:47:16,239 Bill Thomas five six. 891 00:47:16,719 --> 00:47:19,840 Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to mind Over Murder.