WEBVTT 1 00:00:03.720 --> 00:00:04.839 Something's going to happen? 2 00:00:06.360 --> 00:00:10.640 What's going to happen? 3 00:00:17.920 --> 00:00:23.800 Quiet? 4 00:00:24.839 --> 00:00:28.920 Welcome to the Occult Rejects. This episode, I got a 5 00:00:28.920 --> 00:00:31.160 couple of rejects with us, and I got a returning 6 00:00:31.239 --> 00:00:34.119 guest that I am very very excited to finally get 7 00:00:34.240 --> 00:00:37.119 back on. But before we get to him, we will 8 00:00:37.119 --> 00:00:39.799 have the other rejects plug themselves and let them know 9 00:00:39.799 --> 00:00:43.439 where they can find all their work. First, we'll start 10 00:00:43.520 --> 00:00:47.320 off with the reject mad scientist Lisa, What is going on? 11 00:00:47.399 --> 00:00:47.880 How are you? 12 00:00:49.079 --> 00:00:51.079 I'm good, Thank you for having me on, thank you 13 00:00:51.079 --> 00:00:53.439 for inviting me, for Toby, and thank you to all 14 00:00:53.439 --> 00:00:56.240 the rejects for being here. I am very excited about 15 00:00:56.320 --> 00:00:59.240 Tobe because after the first one I had so many 16 00:00:59.280 --> 00:01:02.719 other questions. So I'm glad he's back on. And the 17 00:01:02.759 --> 00:01:05.239 only thing I want to plug is a cult Research 18 00:01:05.280 --> 00:01:08.439 Institute dot org. We have some contributors that contribute to 19 00:01:09.040 --> 00:01:11.159 that website, and so if you like to consume your 20 00:01:11.159 --> 00:01:13.560 content in the literary form, please check us out at 21 00:01:13.560 --> 00:01:15.239 a Cold Research Institute dot org. 22 00:01:15.719 --> 00:01:19.560 Thanks awesome, Thank you so much. And we got the 23 00:01:19.640 --> 00:01:23.120 Man the Headless Giant. Oh, sorry skipping gin, I didn't 24 00:01:23.120 --> 00:01:25.400 have the screen up. Sorry Jin The Ninja the Man. 25 00:01:25.439 --> 00:01:27.760 That's probably the reason why we're having the second interview 26 00:01:27.760 --> 00:01:30.120 with Toby is because you had brought up the whole 27 00:01:30.159 --> 00:01:33.000 trapezoid thing and uh whatever, and here we are again. 28 00:01:33.079 --> 00:01:35.760 So thank you Jin and Jena Ninja. Let everybody know 29 00:01:35.760 --> 00:01:37.159 where they can find all your amazing work. 30 00:01:37.799 --> 00:01:39.959 Well, thank you so much, boss. And I have to say, 31 00:01:40.159 --> 00:01:43.120 we're having this conversation because you and like obviously put 32 00:01:43.120 --> 00:01:45.959 it together. You invite me on, and I'm really lucky 33 00:01:46.040 --> 00:01:48.159 that you include me in these These are my favorite 34 00:01:48.239 --> 00:01:50.799 kind of shows, like with Modern America. I mean, you 35 00:01:50.840 --> 00:01:54.200 know this, moll just my favorite thing. So and thank 36 00:01:54.239 --> 00:01:56.719 you so much Toby for coming on again, and thank 37 00:01:56.760 --> 00:01:59.439 you to the all the rejects on a Planel tonight. 38 00:01:59.519 --> 00:02:01.079 And so if you want to check me out, I'm 39 00:02:01.159 --> 00:02:04.359 at Wukar Reborn w uk and g Reborn on x 40 00:02:04.400 --> 00:02:07.439 Twitter and then ig is Threshold Saints as well as 41 00:02:07.480 --> 00:02:10.960 the show account at Threshold Saints, so serial experiments in 42 00:02:11.159 --> 00:02:14.840 speculative ontology. So I just dropped episode forty eight with 43 00:02:15.000 --> 00:02:19.120 Alex Rivera and we talked about a very in depth 44 00:02:19.159 --> 00:02:23.199 conversation on narcissism and Tracy Twyman. So we kind of 45 00:02:23.879 --> 00:02:26.280 right to the edge on that, So thank you guys. 46 00:02:26.639 --> 00:02:28.560 Awesome, nice, nice, I'm pretty sure it's a good guest 47 00:02:28.560 --> 00:02:31.719 to talk about Tracy too with good stuff. And now 48 00:02:31.719 --> 00:02:33.879 we're finally making it to the Headless Giant. What is 49 00:02:33.919 --> 00:02:35.639 going on? So please let everybody know where they can 50 00:02:35.639 --> 00:02:36.800 find all your amazing work. 51 00:02:37.680 --> 00:02:40.039 You do, and you can find me on x at 52 00:02:40.159 --> 00:02:42.599 the Headless Giant. You can also find me on YouTube 53 00:02:42.680 --> 00:02:48.000 streaming this live. You can also send your emails to me. 54 00:02:48.080 --> 00:02:51.879 If you've had any paranormal experiences or any kind of 55 00:02:52.280 --> 00:02:55.520 mysterious dreams that have stuck with you, email me at 56 00:02:55.520 --> 00:02:58.919 the Headless Giant Podcast at gmail dot com and I 57 00:02:58.960 --> 00:03:01.960 will read it on your show tomorrow with Nick. Also, 58 00:03:03.000 --> 00:03:05.960 if you're noticing that I wasn't on here with Toby before, 59 00:03:06.039 --> 00:03:10.800 that's because Ethan is having a difficult situation, So guys, 60 00:03:10.960 --> 00:03:13.560 send your thoughts on prayers out to Ethan. That poor 61 00:03:13.599 --> 00:03:16.360 guy has been through a lot and he's losing his father, 62 00:03:16.520 --> 00:03:20.199 so just keep eating in your prayers. 63 00:03:20.759 --> 00:03:24.039 Well said, so well said, Thank you, Unless, but not least, 64 00:03:24.280 --> 00:03:27.080 we got Ricardo from the Institute for Natural Philosophy. What 65 00:03:27.280 --> 00:03:29.120 is going on, sir? Thank you very much. For coming 66 00:03:29.159 --> 00:03:29.560 on again. 67 00:03:30.280 --> 00:03:32.800 Oh, thank you very much for having me. Good night 68 00:03:32.840 --> 00:03:37.319 to all of you. I'm eager to learn from Toby 69 00:03:37.400 --> 00:03:41.439 that I'm just being introduced to. So you can find 70 00:03:41.439 --> 00:03:44.240 me at Ricardo Calvo at X as you can see 71 00:03:44.240 --> 00:03:47.120 on the screen. And please check out the Institute for 72 00:03:47.199 --> 00:03:49.919 Natural Philosophy that is also on X and you can 73 00:03:49.919 --> 00:03:52.960 find it at Institute Finacial Philosophy dot org. Check out 74 00:03:52.960 --> 00:03:57.800 O magazine. There is Pharaoh's It's free, it's online and 75 00:03:57.840 --> 00:04:02.639 you can download it. The new issue is almost almost ready, 76 00:04:02.840 --> 00:04:06.039 perhaps one more week or so. And I, just as 77 00:04:06.120 --> 00:04:10.319 Headless said, I just want to share my deepest sympathies 78 00:04:10.360 --> 00:04:14.039 to Eton and to say that we are all well, 79 00:04:15.439 --> 00:04:19.199 we are all thinking about him and what he's going through. 80 00:04:19.240 --> 00:04:19.959 So eaten. 81 00:04:20.079 --> 00:04:22.480 Wherever you are, our thoughts are with you. 82 00:04:23.720 --> 00:04:27.199 Thank you, thank you very much, thank you. And finally 83 00:04:27.360 --> 00:04:30.480 to the guest to himself, he's returning again. We got 84 00:04:30.639 --> 00:04:35.120 Toby Chappell. He's author, musician and Grandmaster of the Order 85 00:04:35.160 --> 00:04:39.160 of the Trapezoid within the Temple of Set. Since twenty nineteen, 86 00:04:39.199 --> 00:04:41.920 his book Infernal Geometry and the Left Hand Path has 87 00:04:41.920 --> 00:04:44.199 been a go to field manual for anyone who wants 88 00:04:44.199 --> 00:04:47.959 to push Sacred Geometry passed euclid and straight into the 89 00:04:48.040 --> 00:04:51.399 nine Angles, now with a brand new volume which we 90 00:04:51.439 --> 00:04:54.120 had them all last on the Languages of magic. Toby's 91 00:04:54.160 --> 00:04:56.959 doubling down on the idea that numbers, shapes, and words 92 00:04:56.959 --> 00:05:01.480 are tools for personal apothes pathiosis. So please tell me, 93 00:05:01.720 --> 00:05:04.800 let everybody know what your deal is, and let's up 94 00:05:04.839 --> 00:05:05.360 with this book. 95 00:05:07.560 --> 00:05:09.720 Hello everyone, and thanks so much for having me back. 96 00:05:09.759 --> 00:05:12.439 I really had a great time our last conversation and 97 00:05:13.360 --> 00:05:16.279 love that some questions from that conversation led to this 98 00:05:16.319 --> 00:05:20.319 return appearance. Since I'm talking about a book that's now 99 00:05:20.920 --> 00:05:25.079 hard to believe about six years old, called an Infernal 100 00:05:25.120 --> 00:05:28.079 Geometry and the Left Hand Path. You can find it 101 00:05:28.160 --> 00:05:33.319 wherever you get your books. So a little bit about 102 00:05:33.319 --> 00:05:36.120 myself for those who didn't see this last time. So 103 00:05:36.360 --> 00:05:39.639 I am a Semiititian. I'm someone that works with and 104 00:05:39.720 --> 00:05:45.800 analyzes and produces signs as part of not only for 105 00:05:45.839 --> 00:05:48.959 my magical work, but also my general way of understanding 106 00:05:49.000 --> 00:05:52.199 the world around me and the people within that world. 107 00:05:53.000 --> 00:05:56.360 I'm also a linguist. I am a dedicated student of 108 00:05:56.600 --> 00:06:01.120 language and a formal sense. I'm actually studying that at 109 00:06:01.160 --> 00:06:07.720 the university level currently. So as was mentioned, I am 110 00:06:07.720 --> 00:06:10.920 the author of two books at present, which are both 111 00:06:11.000 --> 00:06:14.720 sort of related. They both work with a specific approach 112 00:06:14.800 --> 00:06:18.079 to magic and a couple of different esthetics. The most 113 00:06:18.079 --> 00:06:20.920 recent book, The Languages of Magic, is a more general 114 00:06:22.240 --> 00:06:25.199 sort of extrapolation of what I call the semiotic theory 115 00:06:25.240 --> 00:06:27.600 of magic, the idea that whenever we do magic, we're 116 00:06:27.639 --> 00:06:31.639 working with signs as a process of communication with first 117 00:06:31.680 --> 00:06:34.279 and foremost with ourselves, but then also with the one 118 00:06:34.319 --> 00:06:36.399 outside of ourselves and whatever it is that we're wishing 119 00:06:36.439 --> 00:06:39.079 to affect. The idea that since we're in a conversation 120 00:06:39.160 --> 00:06:42.399 with the unmanifest, attempting to persuade it to bring forth 121 00:06:42.720 --> 00:06:47.160 whatever it is that we desire. Yeah, I would like 122 00:06:47.160 --> 00:06:49.759 to as places you can find me, and I'll maybe 123 00:06:49.759 --> 00:06:51.879 mention this again at the end if needed, but places 124 00:06:51.920 --> 00:06:54.560 you can find me online. You can find me at 125 00:06:54.560 --> 00:06:58.279 my older website is Infernal Geometry dot com. The one 126 00:06:58.279 --> 00:07:02.319 that I update more frequently these days is at simiurgist 127 00:07:02.439 --> 00:07:04.920 dot com. S E M I U R G I 128 00:07:05.040 --> 00:07:08.199 S T dot com and you can find links for 129 00:07:08.319 --> 00:07:12.600 me there for Facebook, X, Blue Sky and email contact link. 130 00:07:12.639 --> 00:07:14.360 People are welcome to email me et cetera. 131 00:07:14.839 --> 00:07:16.639 Awesome, and I have all of your I think I 132 00:07:16.680 --> 00:07:18.319 have all those links in the show right now as 133 00:07:18.319 --> 00:07:21.319 we're live, so hey, people can go check his stuff out. 134 00:07:21.680 --> 00:07:24.160 I do highly, highly suggest to go listen to the 135 00:07:24.199 --> 00:07:26.439 first episode he did, even if you're not so much 136 00:07:26.439 --> 00:07:28.680 into the cult or more of a conspiracy theorist, I 137 00:07:28.680 --> 00:07:31.120 would even say go listen to that episode because he's 138 00:07:31.360 --> 00:07:33.920 it's pretty much saying the same thing. Sound. You're getting 139 00:07:33.920 --> 00:07:35.879 manipulated by sound, you know the language. 140 00:07:36.279 --> 00:07:40.399 It's about connections. Yeah, yeah, really, So anything you can 141 00:07:40.439 --> 00:07:42.360 do that helps you to understand the better the connections 142 00:07:42.399 --> 00:07:47.160 between between people, between phenomena, between you know, the processes 143 00:07:47.160 --> 00:07:49.680 of the world is going to both help you to 144 00:07:51.079 --> 00:07:54.000 not only understand it, but also impress your will upon 145 00:07:54.079 --> 00:07:57.680 those things. And whether that is something you're doing for 146 00:07:57.720 --> 00:08:01.360 your own personal ends or whether that's because you're you're 147 00:08:01.439 --> 00:08:04.079 you're part of some grand conspiracy, it's still tools you 148 00:08:04.079 --> 00:08:04.800 may find useful. 149 00:08:05.199 --> 00:08:06.839 Yeah. No, no, I thought that was thought that was 150 00:08:06.879 --> 00:08:09.360 a really really interesting show. So I just want to 151 00:08:09.360 --> 00:08:09.959 plug it again. 152 00:08:10.360 --> 00:08:12.079 But Toby, it's a lot of fun. 153 00:08:12.160 --> 00:08:15.759 Yeah, the conversation, Yeah, it really was, Toby, So what 154 00:08:15.920 --> 00:08:18.160 made you spend a few years to write this book. 155 00:08:18.199 --> 00:08:20.079 What was it that was like, you know what, I 156 00:08:20.120 --> 00:08:22.079 need to put passion into this idea. 157 00:08:23.680 --> 00:08:27.279 Yeah, so I was first exposed to the system which 158 00:08:27.319 --> 00:08:31.040 is called the Nine Angles, which should just clarify in 159 00:08:31.079 --> 00:08:33.200 case there's any confusion, that has nothing to do with 160 00:08:33.679 --> 00:08:35.519 a certain group that has that as part of their name. 161 00:08:36.639 --> 00:08:39.799 They may have taken it from Michael Aquino's writings, but 162 00:08:39.879 --> 00:08:45.559 it's been unclear. But what I'm referring to is work 163 00:08:45.600 --> 00:08:47.879 with the Nine Angles as a specific magical system that 164 00:08:47.960 --> 00:08:52.200 arises out of one primary source called the Ceremony of 165 00:08:52.240 --> 00:08:55.240 the Nine Angles, which was published in Antonine Levey's The 166 00:08:55.240 --> 00:08:59.360 Satanic Rituals. That was actually written by Michael Aquino, who 167 00:08:59.399 --> 00:09:02.679 at the time was a very close associated of LaVey. 168 00:09:03.320 --> 00:09:06.120 Later branched off from the Church of Satan and then 169 00:09:06.480 --> 00:09:08.919 became one of the founders of the Temple of Set. 170 00:09:09.759 --> 00:09:15.559 Now what this sort of system is. It combines things 171 00:09:15.679 --> 00:09:22.360 like Pythagorea and number mysticism, some of the cosmicism, theories 172 00:09:22.399 --> 00:09:27.679 of HP. Lovecraft, and as well as of you know, 173 00:09:27.720 --> 00:09:29.639 the ideas of like higher mathematics, and the idea that 174 00:09:29.639 --> 00:09:32.320 we can work with not only the three dimensions that 175 00:09:32.360 --> 00:09:36.240 we can reach out in touch, but also higher dimensions 176 00:09:36.240 --> 00:09:41.519 as well, in order to find certain gateways into understanding 177 00:09:41.519 --> 00:09:46.480 that are maybe not accessible through ordinary means. And a 178 00:09:46.559 --> 00:09:49.080 Quino didn't write this originally with the intent to create 179 00:09:49.120 --> 00:09:52.240 a magical system. He was writing a specific ritual, kind 180 00:09:52.240 --> 00:09:57.080 of the Lovecraft themed ritual, at LaVey's request. And it 181 00:09:57.120 --> 00:10:01.759 was some time later that really when Stephen Flowers, who 182 00:10:01.799 --> 00:10:03.720 I understand will be a guest on your show, soon 183 00:10:05.080 --> 00:10:06.799 became part of the Temple of Set in the mid 184 00:10:06.879 --> 00:10:09.559 nineteen eighties. One of things that drew him to it 185 00:10:09.720 --> 00:10:11.799 was finding out that a Quino wrote this originally, but 186 00:10:11.840 --> 00:10:13.799 also want to know more about what this thing was 187 00:10:13.879 --> 00:10:19.159 and seeing the operative potential within it. And I first 188 00:10:19.240 --> 00:10:21.879 became aware of it at the time not long after 189 00:10:21.879 --> 00:10:23.559 I joined the Temple of Set, which was in two 190 00:10:23.639 --> 00:10:27.679 thousand and there was not really a lot written about 191 00:10:27.720 --> 00:10:29.639 it at that time. There were bits and pieces of 192 00:10:29.679 --> 00:10:31.960 articles that Flowers and others had written, but no one 193 00:10:31.960 --> 00:10:34.279 had really made a decided attempt to pull it into 194 00:10:34.320 --> 00:10:38.879 like a larger system. And that was something that within 195 00:10:38.960 --> 00:10:41.320 the order of the Trapezoid, which is part of the 196 00:10:41.360 --> 00:10:45.080 Temple of set, some people began to experiment with We 197 00:10:45.120 --> 00:10:49.279 did a lengthy series of workings, nine years worth of 198 00:10:49.639 --> 00:10:53.759 magical workings related to exploring ideas around the Angles, and 199 00:10:53.799 --> 00:10:55.399 it was somewhere in the middle of that that I 200 00:10:55.480 --> 00:10:57.879 began to realize that I was finally getting my head 201 00:10:57.879 --> 00:11:01.360 wrapped around it, after I don't know, probably twelve or 202 00:11:01.360 --> 00:11:03.639 so years of exposure to it at that point. And 203 00:11:05.279 --> 00:11:07.000 as I was we explained some of the ideas to 204 00:11:07.039 --> 00:11:10.639 other people that I knew within the order, people suggested, oh, 205 00:11:10.639 --> 00:11:12.080 you need to write some of this down. We don't 206 00:11:12.080 --> 00:11:14.480 have anything that puts all these things together. It's hard 207 00:11:14.480 --> 00:11:16.120 to find the pieces, it's hard to kind of put 208 00:11:16.120 --> 00:11:18.039 them together on your own. And so I began to 209 00:11:18.080 --> 00:11:20.039 thinking about that. Originally just as hey, let me just 210 00:11:20.080 --> 00:11:21.720 kind of write down what I know and start trying 211 00:11:21.720 --> 00:11:25.039 to fill in the gaps on these pieces of it. 212 00:11:26.039 --> 00:11:29.000 And then as that developed, it became a larger scale work. 213 00:11:29.840 --> 00:11:33.960 And then it suddenly dawned on me that given that 214 00:11:34.000 --> 00:11:37.279 this is something that you know, the original ceremony the 215 00:11:37.360 --> 00:11:40.679 Nine Angles was from nineteen seventy two, and so we're 216 00:11:40.679 --> 00:11:44.679 talking about twenty fourteen at this point, so you have 217 00:11:44.759 --> 00:11:48.240 all these years of when people within the temple and 218 00:11:48.279 --> 00:11:50.600 maybe beyond as well, had been working with this, it 219 00:11:50.639 --> 00:11:53.679 maybe realize that, well, maybe it's time to put some 220 00:11:53.679 --> 00:11:55.759 of this out into the world, not all of it, 221 00:11:55.759 --> 00:11:58.039 because there's there's some stuff that's left out of the 222 00:11:58.039 --> 00:12:01.120 book on purpose, you know, and there's some stuff that's 223 00:12:01.120 --> 00:12:03.159 continued to be developed. The book is a snapshot in 224 00:12:03.240 --> 00:12:06.879 time of really the period from twenty fourteen twenty sixteen 225 00:12:07.360 --> 00:12:09.000 when I was the bulk of when I was writing it, 226 00:12:09.039 --> 00:12:11.399 so things have changed. It's a living system, so it 227 00:12:11.399 --> 00:12:14.639 continues to be developed. And then that's when it that's 228 00:12:14.679 --> 00:12:16.519 when it occurred to me that putting this out of 229 00:12:16.519 --> 00:12:18.399 the world in some way might make sense. And then, 230 00:12:18.480 --> 00:12:22.240 with some assistants from Stephen Flowers actually for whom I'm 231 00:12:22.440 --> 00:12:25.600 extraordinarily grateful for that many things, was able to get 232 00:12:25.600 --> 00:12:31.559 this picked up by Inner Traditions and then published in 233 00:12:31.559 --> 00:12:32.480 twenty nineteen. 234 00:12:34.679 --> 00:12:37.519 That's awesome. Yeah, you know, I've listened to a few 235 00:12:37.519 --> 00:12:42.240 interviews at Don Webben Flowers and they've both actually mentioned you, 236 00:12:42.720 --> 00:12:46.120 giving you a lot of credit for your intellect. So yes, 237 00:12:46.279 --> 00:12:47.559 let's right. 238 00:12:49.120 --> 00:12:51.440 I stand on the shoulders of giants. I mean, they're 239 00:12:51.440 --> 00:12:54.000 They're both very important to me as mentors and his friends. 240 00:12:54.279 --> 00:12:58.519 I've spent time in both their homes, you know, graciously 241 00:12:58.519 --> 00:13:01.120 on their part, and you know, have warned quite a 242 00:13:01.159 --> 00:13:03.360 bit from both of them, as well as from Michael 243 00:13:03.399 --> 00:13:09.919 Aquino himself. Who doctor Aquino did. Uh, he contributed a 244 00:13:10.000 --> 00:13:15.159 forward to Infernal Geometry, and he he did receive a 245 00:13:15.200 --> 00:13:18.120 copy before he passed in twenty nineteen, so he was 246 00:13:18.320 --> 00:13:19.480 very supportive of that as well. 247 00:13:22.440 --> 00:13:26.519 Uh. Did anybody have any questions before we continue? 248 00:13:27.120 --> 00:13:31.960 I got I got a quick question, So about methodology. 249 00:13:32.320 --> 00:13:34.679 I kind of see where you're coming from. The Greeks 250 00:13:34.720 --> 00:13:39.720 had something called isopsophy, where they would be equating numbers 251 00:13:39.840 --> 00:13:42.519 with letters because the two are the same. They had, 252 00:13:42.600 --> 00:13:44.879 you know, their numbers were their letters. So they had 253 00:13:44.879 --> 00:13:48.639 this very quick system of changing perspective from you know, 254 00:13:49.159 --> 00:13:55.799 the mathematical, the geometrical back to the linguistic almost you know, instantaneously. 255 00:13:55.840 --> 00:14:00.399 And you could see them writing isopsophy in places like, uh, 256 00:14:00.440 --> 00:14:05.039 the herculaneum, where they would they would have graffiti talking 257 00:14:05.080 --> 00:14:07.559 about a person's number and how in love with that 258 00:14:07.600 --> 00:14:12.080 person's number they are. And so it's a completely different 259 00:14:12.679 --> 00:14:17.519 kind of perspective of associations, at least within the Greek world. 260 00:14:18.000 --> 00:14:23.240 Is this utilizing somewhat of that shift in perspective, Not. 261 00:14:23.279 --> 00:14:26.000 Directly, but it's kind of tough from the same cloth 262 00:14:26.279 --> 00:14:30.600 in a sense, draws very heavily on the ideas from 263 00:14:30.639 --> 00:14:34.840 the Pythagoreans around uh what you might call their arismo 264 00:14:35.519 --> 00:14:43.720 arismothesy uh yeah, that or aristhmetic somebling on the word 265 00:14:43.720 --> 00:14:48.360 here approach to numbers where it's not about like, okay, one, two, three, four, five, 266 00:14:48.440 --> 00:14:51.320 I have I have six, you know, coconuts or whatever, 267 00:14:51.960 --> 00:14:54.879 but it's about the ideas of oneness, twoness, threeness and fourness. 268 00:14:55.039 --> 00:14:58.279 So when you start to look beyond just not what 269 00:14:58.919 --> 00:15:01.840 numbers reveal to us in the way they relate to 270 00:15:02.720 --> 00:15:04.960 concrete things in the real world, but when they relate 271 00:15:05.080 --> 00:15:09.679 to the idea of the number itself, the idea what 272 00:15:09.720 --> 00:15:11.799 does it mean to be a unity, what does it 273 00:15:11.840 --> 00:15:13.759 mean to be a duality, what does it mean to 274 00:15:13.799 --> 00:15:16.440 be a triad? And so forth, you start to open 275 00:15:16.559 --> 00:15:19.799 up beyond just what you can gain from interacting with 276 00:15:19.840 --> 00:15:22.279 what's in the world to now you're interacting with what 277 00:15:24.320 --> 00:15:29.039 we're able to proceed with mind. But depending on what 278 00:15:29.480 --> 00:15:33.360 relationship you think number has to the you know, the 279 00:15:33.440 --> 00:15:37.519 underpinnings of the universe itself. You could also see that 280 00:15:37.519 --> 00:15:40.360 as the kind of like gateways and understanding this in 281 00:15:40.399 --> 00:15:43.440 a more sort of cosmic level in a sense, the 282 00:15:43.519 --> 00:15:48.360 idea of the concepts behind numbers instead of just the 283 00:15:48.919 --> 00:15:53.720 brute force of a number of something as three of something. 284 00:15:58.200 --> 00:16:00.919 With the Pythagoreans that they were, you know, they had 285 00:16:01.000 --> 00:16:03.120 you know, the monad, the dyead, the triad, and so forth, 286 00:16:03.159 --> 00:16:04.840 all the way up to the deckad, and then it 287 00:16:04.919 --> 00:16:07.200 kind of repeats, so that the tenth was sort of 288 00:16:08.080 --> 00:16:10.559 the kind of perfection beyond the ninth, but also the 289 00:16:10.600 --> 00:16:13.480 gateway to like a new emanation of number within it. 290 00:16:13.559 --> 00:16:18.799 So it just kind of repeated now within the way 291 00:16:18.840 --> 00:16:22.879 that I tend to approach that type of working with 292 00:16:23.559 --> 00:16:25.960 number as a conceptual tool. I mean, I think in 293 00:16:26.080 --> 00:16:28.200 terms of nine, because I think partly because we use 294 00:16:28.200 --> 00:16:30.320 a base ten system. So that makes nine the so 295 00:16:30.399 --> 00:16:32.879 called kind of magic number, the one that returns to itself. 296 00:16:32.919 --> 00:16:35.559 As Anton Levey would say, you know, that's the idea 297 00:16:35.559 --> 00:16:38.320 that if you multiply some number by any number that's 298 00:16:38.320 --> 00:16:40.279 a multiple of nine, if you add up the digits 299 00:16:40.320 --> 00:16:42.759 that that that's some of those digits will also be 300 00:16:42.799 --> 00:16:46.799 multiple of nine, right, you know, like one and seventeen. 301 00:16:47.000 --> 00:16:49.279 You know, one plus one plus seven, so means it's 302 00:16:50.720 --> 00:16:55.360 you know, multiple of nine and and so that becomes 303 00:16:55.440 --> 00:16:58.440 useful to me, is like in terms of like cyclical thinking, 304 00:16:58.480 --> 00:17:01.600 the idea of what what has already come into being, 305 00:17:01.679 --> 00:17:05.160 what can now re manifest in some way, perhaps in 306 00:17:05.599 --> 00:17:09.000 a new version of itself or even perhaps you know, 307 00:17:09.039 --> 00:17:16.000 as a new creation in and of itself. And so 308 00:17:16.119 --> 00:17:17.880 for me, that kind of the idea that from the 309 00:17:17.960 --> 00:17:20.079 Pythagoreans about nine and ten of nine is sort of 310 00:17:20.119 --> 00:17:23.400 the culmination, and then ten is the rarefied beyond this 311 00:17:23.559 --> 00:17:26.039 the beginning to to new cycle. I sort of tend 312 00:17:26.039 --> 00:17:28.480 to combine those into one. But that's just a minor 313 00:17:28.640 --> 00:17:31.680 kind of modification of what they were doing. But if 314 00:17:31.720 --> 00:17:34.680 you read, if you read through in the Ceremony of 315 00:17:34.680 --> 00:17:36.680 the Nine Angles, one of the things that was Michael 316 00:17:36.680 --> 00:17:40.480 Aquino was very influenced by, beyond the obvious HP Lovecraft 317 00:17:41.079 --> 00:17:45.799 was specifically the Pythagorean number of mysticism, of the moment 318 00:17:45.839 --> 00:17:47.799 of that died and so forth, there's a there's a 319 00:17:47.799 --> 00:17:50.839 central part of the Ceremony of the Nine Angles, which 320 00:17:50.880 --> 00:17:54.599 which is, by the way, if someone has the book 321 00:17:54.599 --> 00:17:57.400 Infernal Geometry in the left hand path, this printed in 322 00:17:57.440 --> 00:17:59.640 its entirety at the front of the book. You don't 323 00:17:59.640 --> 00:18:01.599 have to have Levey's book to get a copy of it. 324 00:18:01.759 --> 00:18:05.359 Of course, it's all everything's online these days anyway. But anyway, 325 00:18:05.519 --> 00:18:08.880 there's a there's a critical there's aquittal passage in the 326 00:18:08.920 --> 00:18:11.039 Ceremony of the Nine Angles, which has come to be 327 00:18:11.119 --> 00:18:13.759 known as the Bond of the nine Angles. And this 328 00:18:13.920 --> 00:18:18.519 is sort of relating in Lovecraftian terms what the number 329 00:18:18.559 --> 00:18:20.960 is one through nine mean in that context, but if 330 00:18:21.000 --> 00:18:23.039 you read closely, it's also in the thagoory in terms. 331 00:18:23.200 --> 00:18:26.119 So for example, from the first angle was the infinite, 332 00:18:26.160 --> 00:18:28.079 where in the laughing one doth cry and the flutes 333 00:18:28.119 --> 00:18:30.160 way into the ending of time. So the laughing one 334 00:18:30.240 --> 00:18:32.920 is as athoth he plays the flute. That's part of Lovecraft. 335 00:18:33.319 --> 00:18:37.079 But that's also that idea of a unity, a oneness, 336 00:18:37.799 --> 00:18:40.279 that that's the seed from which everything else he expands. 337 00:18:40.559 --> 00:18:42.240 You know. From the second angle is the master who 338 00:18:42.319 --> 00:18:44.519 authorted the planes in the angles, who have conceived the 339 00:18:44.519 --> 00:18:47.759 world of horrors and its terror and glory, that's about 340 00:18:48.000 --> 00:18:52.720 yok Soothov, which is sort of a not conscious entity 341 00:18:52.799 --> 00:18:55.519 in Lovecraft's world, but it's sort of like that kind 342 00:18:55.519 --> 00:19:00.200 of bridge between uh, you know, the cosmic void of 343 00:19:00.599 --> 00:19:05.799 as a though into you know, the the more sentient 344 00:19:05.880 --> 00:19:08.279 arrangements of matter and thought that the arise out of 345 00:19:08.319 --> 00:19:11.920 that and so forth. If you so that that was 346 00:19:12.240 --> 00:19:15.599 its not an accidental kind of thing. That was a 347 00:19:15.680 --> 00:19:18.519 very deliberate thing that Michael Quino encoded into it. So 348 00:19:18.599 --> 00:19:21.160 it so it wasn't so much on them as the 349 00:19:21.240 --> 00:19:27.720 Greeks would use the opsocopy isopsyphy with the numbers letters 350 00:19:27.759 --> 00:19:30.880 represent the numbers per se, but it's still taking that 351 00:19:30.960 --> 00:19:35.119 idea of that there's something about counting that lets us 352 00:19:35.200 --> 00:19:38.880 relate ourselves to the universe in a way that we 353 00:19:38.920 --> 00:19:42.519 can't do without that concept, and that's what's developed in 354 00:19:42.559 --> 00:19:44.880 this kind of love Crafting sense. So it's a bit 355 00:19:44.880 --> 00:19:49.240 of kind of like ideas for Pythagoras and aesthetic and 356 00:19:49.279 --> 00:19:54.039 cosmology from Lovecraft and then filter through things like Antonine 357 00:19:54.119 --> 00:19:57.039 Leavey's law of the trapezoid and related things. So it's 358 00:19:57.079 --> 00:19:58.680 kind of like this kind of amalgam of a few 359 00:19:58.720 --> 00:19:59.519 things coming together. 360 00:20:02.759 --> 00:20:08.119 So if I may Toby, I'm particularly interested in everything 361 00:20:08.160 --> 00:20:12.359 that is related to frequency, for instance, and frequency sound. 362 00:20:13.279 --> 00:20:17.319 So how would you explain to those listening to us, 363 00:20:17.720 --> 00:20:22.279 what is the importance of the wording or how do 364 00:20:22.319 --> 00:20:25.640 you express yourself when you are using the linguistics to 365 00:20:25.839 --> 00:20:30.519 convey meaning or purpose in these magical practices. 366 00:20:31.880 --> 00:20:34.240 For sure. And one thing I didn't mention in my introductions. 367 00:20:34.279 --> 00:20:39.440 I'm a musician, been a guitarist for Ogez thirty something 368 00:20:39.480 --> 00:20:42.839 years at this point, so I'm a long time musician, 369 00:20:43.200 --> 00:20:46.920 both not only playing but also composing, recording, et cetera. 370 00:20:48.640 --> 00:20:53.279 And so that sort of Pythagorean musical cosmos idea is 371 00:20:53.400 --> 00:20:55.519 kind of it's always in the back of my mind, 372 00:20:55.519 --> 00:20:57.920 even when I'm not writing about that sort of thing explicitly. 373 00:20:59.519 --> 00:21:03.319 So things that that's worth noting, And this is something 374 00:21:03.319 --> 00:21:05.920 that pops up in the Greek magic of Papyri in 375 00:21:05.960 --> 00:21:10.319 a very real sense as well, is the idea of 376 00:21:10.680 --> 00:21:13.599 sort of the differences between consonants and vowels in our speech. 377 00:21:14.359 --> 00:21:18.319 With consonants, we're stopping the flow of air where to 378 00:21:18.440 --> 00:21:21.400 greater or lesser extent, and then the vowels were kind 379 00:21:21.400 --> 00:21:23.920 of flowing in between the consonants. They're more about the 380 00:21:23.960 --> 00:21:28.799 flow of breath outward, where you know, with the tongue 381 00:21:28.799 --> 00:21:32.039 we're shaping the vocal cavity and then and that's what 382 00:21:32.240 --> 00:21:39.400 is causing the the the the sound of the individual vowels. Now, 383 00:21:39.440 --> 00:21:42.039 that's interesting, right, because you have a you're talking about 384 00:21:42.039 --> 00:21:45.559 of continuity versus the discontinuity there, continuity being the vowels 385 00:21:45.559 --> 00:21:52.559 and the discontinuity continuity being the consonants. And my my. 386 00:21:52.720 --> 00:21:55.599 Definitely the silence in the music. Would that be the 387 00:21:55.640 --> 00:21:58.119 silence in the music for instance, because in music there 388 00:21:58.160 --> 00:22:00.160 is no vowels or consonants. 389 00:22:00.400 --> 00:22:04.640 Right right, when you expand it beyond just you know, 390 00:22:04.680 --> 00:22:07.759 spoken language into sound, yeah, that that becomes the silences 391 00:22:07.839 --> 00:22:10.720 versus versus the sound. Or you can also think of 392 00:22:10.720 --> 00:22:13.039 maybe like a percussive sound as more like a constant 393 00:22:13.119 --> 00:22:17.279 as well. But right, the same sort of dichotomy between 394 00:22:18.119 --> 00:22:21.799 unrestricted flow and restricted flow, right, And I think that 395 00:22:21.799 --> 00:22:24.519 that that interplay is very important to magical work. It's 396 00:22:24.519 --> 00:22:27.839 also very important to our thought processes. It's also very 397 00:22:27.839 --> 00:22:32.599 important to of course, it's very important to UH to 398 00:22:32.920 --> 00:22:38.519 speech as far as the magical part that goes, I 399 00:22:38.519 --> 00:22:42.440 mean as this a fairly well known. Uh. The pathegoral 400 00:22:42.480 --> 00:22:44.440 ideas about the music of the sphere is the idea 401 00:22:44.519 --> 00:22:47.319 that the different parts of the cosmos are tuned in 402 00:22:47.640 --> 00:22:51.839 a sense. And this was well, that was speculative for 403 00:22:51.920 --> 00:22:54.640 the most part in their time. We now know, of course, 404 00:22:54.839 --> 00:22:58.559 this is literally true. We have, for example, you know, 405 00:22:58.640 --> 00:23:01.519 the the orbits of the planet, you know, moving certain 406 00:23:01.680 --> 00:23:04.920 according to certain formulas that describe how gravity moves the 407 00:23:04.920 --> 00:23:08.920 planets around around the Sun. But you can also even 408 00:23:09.079 --> 00:23:11.960 stack stack them up and go, well, this orbit is 409 00:23:12.000 --> 00:23:15.079 this many times, or has this relationship this, uh, this 410 00:23:15.640 --> 00:23:17.200 proportion to this other orbit. 411 00:23:17.039 --> 00:23:17.440 Et cetera. 412 00:23:17.759 --> 00:23:20.680 And I've even I've heard people do this, and I've 413 00:23:20.680 --> 00:23:23.119 also done a bit of this myself, of kind of 414 00:23:23.200 --> 00:23:25.720 using those relationships and using them to create music. So 415 00:23:25.720 --> 00:23:28.279 you're literally kind of listening to that music, you know, 416 00:23:28.359 --> 00:23:31.799 take the same proportion between the nose of proportions between 417 00:23:31.799 --> 00:23:37.240 the frequencies. So I think that that becomes another way 418 00:23:37.279 --> 00:23:40.160 to relate to the universe around us, to relate our 419 00:23:40.240 --> 00:23:44.599 thought processes to what is the underlying of reality that 420 00:23:44.720 --> 00:23:47.200 is part of the physical makeup of the universe. 421 00:23:47.200 --> 00:23:47.440 There. 422 00:23:48.079 --> 00:23:51.519 So if I told you that for instance, there are 423 00:23:51.599 --> 00:23:55.680 monuments that are built to reflect architecture into sound in 424 00:23:55.799 --> 00:23:59.119 the four search scale. How would you relate that as 425 00:23:59.200 --> 00:24:02.319 important facts? They have you found that in your research? 426 00:24:04.640 --> 00:24:07.200 M yeah, you much something? 427 00:24:09.079 --> 00:24:11.839 Yeah, well it's it's I'm sorry, I shut you up 428 00:24:11.960 --> 00:24:16.240 till I'm thinking through a couple of you know, I 429 00:24:16.240 --> 00:24:18.000 have like five thoughts or to go in different directions. 430 00:24:18.000 --> 00:24:18.440 I'm trying to. 431 00:24:18.559 --> 00:24:21.200 Publish one to chase it runs away too fast. 432 00:24:22.000 --> 00:24:30.119 Yeah, well, yeah, welcome to my world. The I think 433 00:24:30.160 --> 00:24:31.519 the point I want to kind of pursue a little 434 00:24:31.519 --> 00:24:34.000 bit of that is about relationships, about finding the way 435 00:24:34.039 --> 00:24:36.359 that things relate to each other. You know that there's 436 00:24:36.480 --> 00:24:38.200 there's different ways that you can do that. You have 437 00:24:38.279 --> 00:24:42.279 both you have you visual cues about about the things 438 00:24:42.279 --> 00:24:47.039 you encounter, but there's also like in terms of sound, 439 00:24:48.480 --> 00:24:52.319 you know, we find certain sounds harmonious and move as 440 00:24:52.319 --> 00:24:53.000 opposed to others. 441 00:24:53.000 --> 00:24:53.240 I mean. 442 00:24:53.279 --> 00:24:55.759 Pythagoras road extensively by this, of course, and this pops 443 00:24:55.799 --> 00:24:58.359 up a lot and Plato as well, especially the dialogue 444 00:24:58.440 --> 00:25:04.400 the tomas Uh where he literally describes the formation of 445 00:25:04.400 --> 00:25:09.039 the cosmos, where you know, a portion of the unmanifest 446 00:25:09.240 --> 00:25:13.079 is carved out to form part of the universe. Then 447 00:25:13.160 --> 00:25:16.880 this other progressive function is carved out, et cetera. And 448 00:25:16.920 --> 00:25:20.759 if you read what he describes as the specific portions 449 00:25:21.240 --> 00:25:26.720 he's they're going in Apathegorian musical scale, you know, where 450 00:25:26.720 --> 00:25:29.519 you have the thirds and the fifth and the octave 451 00:25:29.799 --> 00:25:34.880 and so forth. And then so it's all it was 452 00:25:34.960 --> 00:25:39.119 almost like it was they're using different languages for looking 453 00:25:39.119 --> 00:25:41.039 at the same thing. In a sense, let's look at 454 00:25:41.079 --> 00:25:43.200 this mathematically. This is that we can see these things 455 00:25:43.200 --> 00:25:45.000 about it. This way, look at this musically, we can 456 00:25:45.000 --> 00:25:47.759 see these things about it. And that's why those sciences 457 00:25:47.839 --> 00:25:54.079 were so closely connected, the idea that geometry and astronomy 458 00:25:54.480 --> 00:25:58.440 and music were all different ways of looking at the 459 00:25:58.480 --> 00:26:02.519 same types of relationships, the same types of of understanding, 460 00:26:02.960 --> 00:26:06.160 the same attempt to understand the universe. 461 00:26:06.440 --> 00:26:09.640 Robert, I'm pretty sure you know who that is. 462 00:26:10.640 --> 00:26:13.880 Oh yes, yeah. The Platonists, especially the ones that popped 463 00:26:13.920 --> 00:26:18.039 up in the you know, the early modern period flood, 464 00:26:18.119 --> 00:26:22.880 Giardano Bruno, even Kepler, Johannes Kepler, who was who worked 465 00:26:22.880 --> 00:26:28.960 out the mathematics behind the planets, behind the orbits of 466 00:26:28.960 --> 00:26:35.559 the planets. We're hugely informed by these type of this 467 00:26:35.839 --> 00:26:40.000 Platonic really Pythagorean, but they got it through through Plato, 468 00:26:40.480 --> 00:26:43.480 this way of looking at the universe as this interplay 469 00:26:43.599 --> 00:26:49.440 between proportions, its interplay between mathematical relationships. It was part 470 00:26:49.480 --> 00:26:52.440 of what Galileo would call it, that reading the Book 471 00:26:52.480 --> 00:26:56.400 of Nature, the idea that we can perceive nature in 472 00:26:56.440 --> 00:26:59.000 certain ways that are part of our part of our 473 00:26:59.039 --> 00:27:03.920 own natures. But through that we have to we have 474 00:27:04.000 --> 00:27:05.720 to read what it's trying to say. And the way 475 00:27:05.720 --> 00:27:06.880 we do that is we have to have to learn 476 00:27:06.920 --> 00:27:09.799 as language. And and for the many of those guys, 477 00:27:09.799 --> 00:27:12.559 that's language was mathematics. And so that's why you see 478 00:27:13.480 --> 00:27:17.880 such a math mathematically precise approaches to music, to the 479 00:27:18.000 --> 00:27:20.279 astronomy and so forth, because it was all part of 480 00:27:20.279 --> 00:27:25.279 the underpinning of what was what was really making up 481 00:27:25.279 --> 00:27:27.200 the universe was mathematics to them. 482 00:27:27.960 --> 00:27:31.319 Sure, so so that would be the inclusion of animism 483 00:27:31.640 --> 00:27:36.319 into into this process, this magical process, would you say 484 00:27:36.359 --> 00:27:42.559 that like conveying word, conveying life, conveying life to words 485 00:27:42.599 --> 00:27:46.720 into into meaning, Like when you create a spell, you 486 00:27:46.759 --> 00:27:51.119 have to create it's a complex, complex process of creating 487 00:27:51.880 --> 00:27:56.079 intention through the meaning of the language into the rhythm 488 00:27:56.400 --> 00:27:59.720 and the frequency of the sound itself for a desired 489 00:27:59.720 --> 00:28:01.000 to act, would you say that. 490 00:28:02.359 --> 00:28:06.160 Yes, very very much. Uh. You know, there's the idea 491 00:28:06.160 --> 00:28:09.720 of the logos, right, the transcendent word, that that is 492 00:28:09.759 --> 00:28:12.559 sort of the part of the makeup of the cosmos, 493 00:28:13.079 --> 00:28:16.279 and that when we work with with words, you know, 494 00:28:16.279 --> 00:28:19.079 we're working both with the words that we're speaking, we're 495 00:28:19.119 --> 00:28:21.160 also working with the deeper meaning behind those words. We're 496 00:28:21.160 --> 00:28:23.400 also working with the transcendent idea of what it means 497 00:28:23.440 --> 00:28:26.240 to speak things into being to begin with, which is 498 00:28:26.279 --> 00:28:30.680 a very important idea in in ancient cultures. You see that, 499 00:28:30.839 --> 00:28:33.680 you see it very explicitly in in ancient Egypt, with 500 00:28:33.720 --> 00:28:38.279 the idea that that thot or Jiujute literally writes things 501 00:28:38.319 --> 00:28:41.240 into reality, that that it doesn't occur until he writes 502 00:28:41.240 --> 00:28:44.799 it in his book. You see things like in the 503 00:28:44.799 --> 00:28:50.000 Babylonian world with the creation epic the unuma Elish, which 504 00:28:50.200 --> 00:28:54.839 starts off with the very idea that before before the 505 00:28:54.839 --> 00:28:58.039 sky above had a name, before the gods had names, 506 00:28:58.519 --> 00:29:00.519 the idea that they have to be named and into being. 507 00:29:00.960 --> 00:29:09.200 So there's something transcendent and foundational about the word itself 508 00:29:09.240 --> 00:29:13.160 that we have to you know, just like with Plato 509 00:29:13.240 --> 00:29:16.119 carving off parts of the cosmic describing the carbon off 510 00:29:16.160 --> 00:29:17.759 parts of the cosmos, we have to carve off part 511 00:29:17.759 --> 00:29:20.799 of the transcendent word to make it the imminent word 512 00:29:20.799 --> 00:29:24.680 that we actually work with. And yes, frequency is part 513 00:29:24.680 --> 00:29:29.440 of that as well. You know, there are the idea 514 00:29:29.599 --> 00:29:35.799 that the the not only the alphabet or the writing 515 00:29:35.799 --> 00:29:38.279 system that the words may be written with, but also 516 00:29:38.880 --> 00:29:41.720 the frequencies with which they were spoken and the relationships 517 00:29:41.759 --> 00:29:44.759 between the different words. That's such an ancient idea, and 518 00:29:44.799 --> 00:29:47.720 the way we language has been largely kind of subplanted 519 00:29:48.079 --> 00:29:52.160 Parsi because language and writing are so widespread now, we 520 00:29:52.160 --> 00:29:54.880 don't think of them as weird things. Even their writing. 521 00:29:55.039 --> 00:30:01.839 Reading and writing is extraordinarily weird. You know, we have 522 00:30:01.920 --> 00:30:04.519 to we have to dig big back deeper to understand, 523 00:30:04.640 --> 00:30:09.039 like how what we've lost about understanding through these ways 524 00:30:09.039 --> 00:30:12.279 of interacting with with the world. Sorry, Lisa, I didn't 525 00:30:12.279 --> 00:30:13.319 mean to cut you out there. 526 00:30:13.960 --> 00:30:17.039 No, no, I was interrupting you was would you say 527 00:30:17.079 --> 00:30:19.039 that the vow going back and building on what you 528 00:30:19.079 --> 00:30:21.000 and dicoct we were talking about, would you say that 529 00:30:21.240 --> 00:30:26.680 vowels shape the word inso much that it creates memory 530 00:30:26.880 --> 00:30:29.680 of its backbone, so that when you remove the vowels 531 00:30:29.720 --> 00:30:32.039 and you just see the consonant, you can still read 532 00:30:32.119 --> 00:30:36.039 the word. And the same thing with music. Shapes air 533 00:30:36.799 --> 00:30:39.519 inso much that whenever you don't hear the music anymore, 534 00:30:39.799 --> 00:30:42.799 you still can manipulate the brain. It has memory. 535 00:30:43.240 --> 00:30:48.400 Would you say, yeah, well, humans a great of finding patterns. 536 00:30:48.400 --> 00:30:52.160 That that's part of the weird conceptual apparatus that we have, 537 00:30:52.319 --> 00:30:54.559 is that we see patterns even when they're not there. 538 00:30:54.880 --> 00:30:56.519 I mean that helps with things like a letter is 539 00:30:56.720 --> 00:30:58.960 left out of a word, or some sounds left out. 540 00:30:59.319 --> 00:31:01.960 Even you and have I mean these days, like when 541 00:31:02.000 --> 00:31:04.200 you listen to like an MP three or or stream 542 00:31:04.240 --> 00:31:06.400 of music, it's such high resolution this is not an issue. 543 00:31:06.400 --> 00:31:08.160 But like in the early days of that when you 544 00:31:08.200 --> 00:31:11.759 had very low resolution sound files, your ears filling in 545 00:31:11.799 --> 00:31:15.519 gaps that aren't stuff that's not there, all right, But 546 00:31:15.559 --> 00:31:19.920 we're so good at finding patterns even when they're not 547 00:31:20.079 --> 00:31:24.519 there that you know, there's a certain amount of capacity 548 00:31:24.559 --> 00:31:26.839 for missfiring that's built in because it's better to think 549 00:31:26.880 --> 00:31:28.519 you see a pattern and react to it than to 550 00:31:28.559 --> 00:31:30.599 miss the pattern, right, So it's part of our kind 551 00:31:30.599 --> 00:31:35.720 of evolutionary conception as well our evolutionary development. The idea 552 00:31:35.799 --> 00:31:37.240 like if you're if you're in the grass and you 553 00:31:37.240 --> 00:31:38.960 think you see a snake, well it's better to just 554 00:31:39.200 --> 00:31:41.559 react a mealy as if the snake's there. Then when 555 00:31:41.559 --> 00:31:43.599 you notice later, oh that was really just just a 556 00:31:43.640 --> 00:31:47.640 branch or whatever, it's like, that's cool, but that's a 557 00:31:47.720 --> 00:31:50.200 much better situation than it wasn't a snake and you 558 00:31:50.200 --> 00:31:55.000 didn't notice, right, So we have this kind of built 559 00:31:55.039 --> 00:31:59.680 in error rate in our pattern recognition. So which can 560 00:31:59.720 --> 00:32:04.559 be exploited magically, can be exploited, propaganda, exploited through conspiracy. 561 00:32:04.920 --> 00:32:08.519 You know, there's lots of ways that that's used against us. 562 00:32:09.000 --> 00:32:11.279 But that's also one of our sort of magic powers, 563 00:32:11.319 --> 00:32:13.759 if you will, is that we can we can take 564 00:32:13.880 --> 00:32:17.119 from things that they're maybe missing some parts of information, 565 00:32:17.160 --> 00:32:19.640 and we can fill it in based off of our 566 00:32:19.680 --> 00:32:22.160 experience what's likely to be there. You know, it's a 567 00:32:22.200 --> 00:32:25.519 combination of like experience and reasoning through what may be there. 568 00:32:28.319 --> 00:32:30.480 I mean, one of the reasons this is not the 569 00:32:30.519 --> 00:32:34.319 same with all alphabets are worse usually referred to as 570 00:32:34.359 --> 00:32:38.000 abjods that leave out the vowels, like with Arabic and 571 00:32:38.079 --> 00:32:40.960 Hebrew for example, too well known examples. In a lot 572 00:32:40.960 --> 00:32:44.480 of cases there's only one choice for the vowel anyway, 573 00:32:44.559 --> 00:32:46.160 so it's not even like you have to write it 574 00:32:46.200 --> 00:32:48.839 down in many cases. Now there are other other places, 575 00:32:48.839 --> 00:32:50.680 and you see this quite a bit in the Torah 576 00:32:50.799 --> 00:32:53.039 where they actually play with the idea that oh, well 577 00:32:53.039 --> 00:32:54.839 depends on which value fill in here. It could mean this, 578 00:32:54.880 --> 00:32:56.559 it could mean this, it could mean this, and so 579 00:32:56.799 --> 00:32:58.880 it's kind of like a puzzle puzzle for the reader 580 00:32:58.920 --> 00:33:02.519 to figure out. And even sometimes like there is no 581 00:33:02.640 --> 00:33:04.880 right answer, there's different ways to interpret this because it's 582 00:33:04.920 --> 00:33:08.920 literally could be one or the other. So yeah, so 583 00:33:08.960 --> 00:33:12.720 like it's a really it's really interesting the move from 584 00:33:12.799 --> 00:33:18.279 a the move to like a fully a phonetic alphabet 585 00:33:18.359 --> 00:33:22.640 is actually a really weird move in human in human 586 00:33:22.720 --> 00:33:26.000 history that you know, has certain advantages because now some 587 00:33:26.039 --> 00:33:28.559 things are not left to guess work, but it also 588 00:33:28.640 --> 00:33:32.200 kind of takes away some things because like that ability 589 00:33:32.200 --> 00:33:34.519 to play with ambiguity of the well, it could be this, 590 00:33:34.839 --> 00:33:38.359 it could plausibly be this or this, and now you 591 00:33:38.359 --> 00:33:40.640 can read read it through different ways as a result, 592 00:33:41.039 --> 00:33:42.160 so you think. 593 00:33:42.079 --> 00:33:46.119 Passating, Yeah, you think we can use our current language 594 00:33:46.720 --> 00:33:52.359 to create a magic expression or spell or are the 595 00:33:52.519 --> 00:33:55.799 ancient language is more proper to do it, and the 596 00:33:55.880 --> 00:34:00.759 creation of our language is somehow to reach we remove 597 00:34:01.359 --> 00:34:06.599 that magical ability from that intention or expression. 598 00:34:07.799 --> 00:34:10.440 Well, I think you can use any symbol system whatsoever 599 00:34:10.480 --> 00:34:12.599 for that, you know, mean, I'm counting language as as 600 00:34:12.639 --> 00:34:17.760 a symbol system because in semiotics, semiotics regards itself as 601 00:34:19.119 --> 00:34:21.840 we regards that linguistics is actually a subset of semiotics. 602 00:34:21.840 --> 00:34:26.159 It's one particular system of applied signs. Now being able 603 00:34:26.199 --> 00:34:28.320 to use it is not the same as being the 604 00:34:28.360 --> 00:34:33.280 best tool, right right, I mean, and that's the same 605 00:34:33.440 --> 00:34:36.519 like uh, you know, like anyone that this speaks multiple languages, 606 00:34:36.559 --> 00:34:39.599 it knows very well that you lose certain things in translation. 607 00:34:39.679 --> 00:34:42.920 There's some things you can translate. It's easy to translate 608 00:34:43.159 --> 00:34:47.800 hard concepts. Translate the glass, You're right, translating what the 609 00:34:47.920 --> 00:34:52.480 glass means, like what's what significance it has in a 610 00:34:52.519 --> 00:34:56.400 situation that that's that's maybe some where some things get 611 00:34:56.480 --> 00:34:59.199 lost in translation or you can't quite express things in 612 00:34:59.239 --> 00:35:02.519 the in the same way. I mean, as far as 613 00:35:02.519 --> 00:35:06.599 there's any perfect language for magic, I my personal feeling 614 00:35:06.639 --> 00:35:08.760 is that there isn't. But I think that there may be. 615 00:35:09.519 --> 00:35:11.639 I think that you can look at some situations where 616 00:35:11.679 --> 00:35:14.639 the perfect language is the one for that. For example, 617 00:35:14.719 --> 00:35:17.800 in the Ceremony of the Nine Angles, when Michael Aquino 618 00:35:17.880 --> 00:35:20.400 first wrote it, he wrote it out in English, and 619 00:35:20.760 --> 00:35:23.960 you realized something was missing, wrote it entirely in English, 620 00:35:24.000 --> 00:35:27.360 and then then he started to play around with you know, 621 00:35:27.440 --> 00:35:30.880 Lovecraft didn't fully developed like a language in his books 622 00:35:30.880 --> 00:35:32.800 to the same extent that somebody like J. R. R. 623 00:35:32.920 --> 00:35:35.880 Tolkien did, But there are a few pieces here and 624 00:35:35.960 --> 00:35:39.639 there in a few of the stories, and so a 625 00:35:39.719 --> 00:35:42.199 Quino kind of took those kind of made up, made 626 00:35:42.239 --> 00:35:44.400 up some of his own words, used some things in 627 00:35:44.440 --> 00:35:47.400 the same kind of patterns to kind of create, well, 628 00:35:47.440 --> 00:35:49.599 if you had a fully flesh out language of the old, 629 00:35:49.599 --> 00:35:51.960 great old ones, what would it what might it be like? 630 00:35:52.679 --> 00:35:56.519 Including the ideas, for example, that they they don't have 631 00:35:56.559 --> 00:36:00.760 the same vocal apparatus as humans do, so that, you know, 632 00:36:00.800 --> 00:36:02.239 so maybe there's some sounds we can make it that 633 00:36:02.280 --> 00:36:06.079 they can't, and vice versa. And so he just decribed 634 00:36:06.119 --> 00:36:08.559 it as that. In the Ceremony of the Nine Angles 635 00:36:08.559 --> 00:36:10.880 he described it, it's an approximation as best we can 636 00:36:10.920 --> 00:36:14.800 do for the language. Of the Great Old Ones, because 637 00:36:14.840 --> 00:36:18.360 he realized that English alone didn't convey the ideas he 638 00:36:18.480 --> 00:36:20.400 was trying to do. And in fact, the if you 639 00:36:20.440 --> 00:36:24.840 read his instructions for that that ceremony, it splicitly says 640 00:36:24.840 --> 00:36:27.199 that you're supposed to read through the English part beforehand, 641 00:36:27.239 --> 00:36:29.960 but then when you actually do the ceremony itself, you 642 00:36:30.039 --> 00:36:33.000 do it exclusively in the youu Gothic language. This he 643 00:36:33.079 --> 00:36:35.239 described it. And I've been I've been part of that 644 00:36:35.280 --> 00:36:41.239 before where we've we've done exactly that, and it's it's weird, 645 00:36:41.320 --> 00:36:46.639 like at first you're you're just like hearing gibberish almost, 646 00:36:47.039 --> 00:36:51.519 but then you start sort of like what Lisa was saying, 647 00:36:51.559 --> 00:36:53.079 like you start to pick up on patterns. He started 648 00:36:53.119 --> 00:36:55.280 to notice repeating little bits here and there, he started 649 00:36:55.280 --> 00:36:57.880 to notice certain sounds go with certain other sounds. And 650 00:36:57.920 --> 00:37:00.400 when you start to kind of get that more sense 651 00:37:00.440 --> 00:37:04.119 of a flow for it, like it enhances what you're 652 00:37:04.119 --> 00:37:06.119 doing in a way that if I was reading the 653 00:37:06.159 --> 00:37:08.280 translation of this at the same time, like it just 654 00:37:08.320 --> 00:37:11.320 wouldn't have the same effect. So yeah, so I think 655 00:37:11.320 --> 00:37:13.840 that there's no universal like this is the best language 656 00:37:13.840 --> 00:37:16.039 we're doing magic in. But I think that they're depending 657 00:37:16.079 --> 00:37:20.519 on the situation. There are certainly options that are more 658 00:37:20.519 --> 00:37:23.960 effective in certain circumstances than others. Might be same sort 659 00:37:23.960 --> 00:37:27.639 of thing with you know, the Catholic Mass and Latin. 660 00:37:28.199 --> 00:37:29.760 A lot of people for the reason, one of the 661 00:37:29.760 --> 00:37:33.000 reasons there's a lot of reaction against the doing the 662 00:37:33.000 --> 00:37:35.079 Mass in the vernacular was that people felt they were 663 00:37:35.079 --> 00:37:38.199 missing something, the idea that you, even if they you 664 00:37:38.239 --> 00:37:41.800 understood what it meant, just the different sonorities that you 665 00:37:41.800 --> 00:37:44.960 were hearing from it, something felt missing when you take 666 00:37:45.000 --> 00:37:48.239 that out and you're just hearing the same thing in English. 667 00:37:48.280 --> 00:37:52.360 Sure, I ask, because when you hear we hear something, 668 00:37:52.480 --> 00:37:55.760 for instance, in ancient Norse, or you hear something in 669 00:37:56.719 --> 00:38:04.639 ancient I need help here, what's the name of it? Well, 670 00:38:04.679 --> 00:38:07.360 I can't remember. But for instance, in what we believe 671 00:38:07.519 --> 00:38:10.840 was ancient Egypt or what is to speak in tongues, 672 00:38:11.239 --> 00:38:15.320 there is a certain raspiness and it combines it with 673 00:38:15.840 --> 00:38:18.760 all kinds of tones that are different. While our language 674 00:38:18.800 --> 00:38:23.840 is more linear, so it can't reach everywhere, so it's 675 00:38:23.880 --> 00:38:27.480 it's a more neutral frequency instead of having the really 676 00:38:27.760 --> 00:38:31.199 deep sounds and those high pitches that you can get 677 00:38:31.360 --> 00:38:35.840 from these ancient languages so like the language of the 678 00:38:35.880 --> 00:38:37.960 Torah that I can't remember right now. I'm sorry, I 679 00:38:38.039 --> 00:38:42.480 can't remember the name. I'm getting a blank. And my 680 00:38:42.599 --> 00:38:46.159 question was exactly that, if you answered it, because in English, 681 00:38:46.599 --> 00:38:51.320 as in most modern languages, is like a monotonic tone, 682 00:38:51.360 --> 00:38:53.320 like I am speaking now, and it doesn't seem that 683 00:38:53.320 --> 00:38:56.320 I'm going up and down in my sounds on my 684 00:38:56.519 --> 00:39:00.519 on my tones, so it's it's monotonic almost like an 685 00:39:00.599 --> 00:39:03.239 ancient languages that are not like that. They go deep down, 686 00:39:03.320 --> 00:39:06.559 they go up, they vary, and they can convey meaning 687 00:39:06.599 --> 00:39:09.000 to that intention or even purpose to what you're saying 688 00:39:09.000 --> 00:39:13.519 that the companies with a self actuation that you are 689 00:39:13.559 --> 00:39:15.800 trying to convey through what you are speaking. And that 690 00:39:16.039 --> 00:39:18.320 was my question. Thank you for answering that. 691 00:39:19.400 --> 00:39:19.599 Nice. 692 00:39:19.880 --> 00:39:23.280 Yeah, well, I mean you have, in at least in 693 00:39:23.599 --> 00:39:27.599 what's considered sort of standard North American English, you have 694 00:39:28.760 --> 00:39:31.880 I think it's somewhere around fifty six sounds, give or 695 00:39:31.880 --> 00:39:35.000 take a variety of consonants and in vowels. But that's 696 00:39:35.239 --> 00:39:37.400 that's only a small number of the possible sounds that 697 00:39:37.440 --> 00:39:39.719 the human local aborritus can make. So if you think 698 00:39:39.760 --> 00:39:42.039 about it, if you're speaking any language, and there's no 699 00:39:42.119 --> 00:39:46.400 language that uses every possible sound that humans can use. 700 00:39:46.800 --> 00:39:49.000 If you think about it, you're always cutting off some 701 00:39:49.039 --> 00:39:53.920 of the possibilities whatever language you're using. And as well, 702 00:39:53.960 --> 00:39:57.719 like you're very very good good example of that is 703 00:39:57.719 --> 00:39:59.440 when you have like a tonal language versus a non 704 00:39:59.480 --> 00:40:01.679 total language. English is a non total language, something like 705 00:40:01.719 --> 00:40:06.199 Mandarin is a tonal language, Vietnamese, et cetera. It's very 706 00:40:06.199 --> 00:40:10.119 common in Asian languages. You know, the idea that you know, 707 00:40:10.199 --> 00:40:13.599 the same sounds spoken to a different pitch now now 708 00:40:13.719 --> 00:40:18.719 change meaning as well. So so yeah, so you're always 709 00:40:18.760 --> 00:40:22.599 you're always limiting your possibility somewhat. But just like the 710 00:40:23.039 --> 00:40:26.760 following on with Lisa's question, you're always fill You're always 711 00:40:26.760 --> 00:40:29.840 filling in some gaps too because you because you know 712 00:40:29.880 --> 00:40:32.159 that there's there are things that are that can be 713 00:40:32.239 --> 00:40:35.280 there that are maybe not as obvious, or things that 714 00:40:35.320 --> 00:40:37.599 you fill in. Or maybe you speak in other language 715 00:40:37.639 --> 00:40:40.119 that uses some different sounds from English, and like you 716 00:40:40.159 --> 00:40:41.960 think you hear a sound from the way that doesn't 717 00:40:41.960 --> 00:40:44.960 go in English because you're you're has accustomed to hearing 718 00:40:44.960 --> 00:40:46.639 that sound in a certain way and kind of filled 719 00:40:46.679 --> 00:40:47.320 in the gap there. 720 00:40:48.000 --> 00:40:50.800 You know it's it's interesting just from my own practices. 721 00:40:50.880 --> 00:40:53.840 I guess from doing like a lot of cabalistic stuff 722 00:40:53.880 --> 00:40:56.559 and using the Tree of Life a lot, what I 723 00:40:56.559 --> 00:40:59.760 would do like the Hextagram ritual or whatever. Yeah, using 724 00:40:59.840 --> 00:41:01.360 he Brew a lot and then switching back to like 725 00:41:01.400 --> 00:41:05.639 speaking English a lot. I actually noticed it. It kind 726 00:41:05.639 --> 00:41:08.719 of fucked me up. It kind of kind of actually 727 00:41:08.760 --> 00:41:10.679 like fucked me up. It's like I was realizing, like 728 00:41:10.719 --> 00:41:13.719 I think I was almost incorporating certain both and it 729 00:41:13.840 --> 00:41:15.519 just I don't know, I don't know how to explain it. 730 00:41:15.840 --> 00:41:17.440 But there was something else I wanted to say that 731 00:41:17.480 --> 00:41:20.679 I found interesting. It was a little bit farther back, 732 00:41:20.719 --> 00:41:23.480 and it made me think, like you were talking about 733 00:41:23.480 --> 00:41:25.360 I guess, like the brain kind of like getting confused 734 00:41:25.360 --> 00:41:27.639 and maybe lying to you. And then I was like 735 00:41:27.679 --> 00:41:30.239 thinking about sound and like a few weeks ago while 736 00:41:30.280 --> 00:41:33.400 we were podcasting, I had like the sink on and 737 00:41:33.440 --> 00:41:36.119 it was running water but a little bit and I 738 00:41:36.159 --> 00:41:38.639 didn't know. And I'm sitting here and throughout like the 739 00:41:38.679 --> 00:41:41.719 whole show, my brain is hearing that and I am 740 00:41:41.800 --> 00:41:44.039 like wondering everything that it could be. Is it's something 741 00:41:44.119 --> 00:41:46.360 hitting the floor. I'm looking outside thinking oh no, it 742 00:41:46.440 --> 00:41:49.960 sounds like it's coming from outside. Eventually, after the show's over, 743 00:41:50.320 --> 00:41:52.599 I'm walking around and I'm still looking and listening, and 744 00:41:52.639 --> 00:41:55.679 I'm like, yo, it sounds like a static TV. And 745 00:41:55.760 --> 00:41:58.400 I start to walk into the kitchen. And as soon 746 00:41:58.519 --> 00:42:00.760 as I see that water coming out of the forcet, 747 00:42:00.760 --> 00:42:05.480 that sound fucking changes mm hmm to sounding like water 748 00:42:05.519 --> 00:42:06.519 hitting the fucking sink. 749 00:42:07.880 --> 00:42:08.920 Yeah, he caught in the act. 750 00:42:09.039 --> 00:42:10.800 Yeah, So my brain was able to make sense of 751 00:42:10.800 --> 00:42:12.320 what it was going on now because it had thought 752 00:42:12.519 --> 00:42:14.400 how many other things possible be un told it saw 753 00:42:14.400 --> 00:42:17.280 the water falling out of the force. It did not 754 00:42:17.320 --> 00:42:18.400 sound like water, am I head? 755 00:42:20.000 --> 00:42:22.039 Do you think about it? You thinking about like you 756 00:42:22.280 --> 00:42:24.559 were trying to find it based off the information you 757 00:42:24.639 --> 00:42:27.119 had then when you saw it, now you had a 758 00:42:27.119 --> 00:42:29.079 piece of information that was missing and that now fills 759 00:42:29.079 --> 00:42:32.599 in that gap, and that was you now see it 760 00:42:32.599 --> 00:42:33.360 for what it really was. 761 00:42:33.400 --> 00:42:35.199 It was weird experience. I was like, wow, now it 762 00:42:35.199 --> 00:42:38.440 sounds like water. Yeah. And then one more thing I 763 00:42:38.480 --> 00:42:42.000 just wanted to add. I think, uh, it was something 764 00:42:42.039 --> 00:42:44.320 that I think maybe Ricardo was getting at. And uh, 765 00:42:44.719 --> 00:42:46.360 I don't know if anybody here might think, you know, 766 00:42:46.360 --> 00:42:48.159 maybe it's I'm onto something or maybe it's just you 767 00:42:48.159 --> 00:42:51.639 know whatever, an idea. And uh with old dirty bastard 768 00:42:51.679 --> 00:42:54.360 from Wu Tang, with his style and the stuff that 769 00:42:54.400 --> 00:42:56.440 he used to do, I was like, Yo, that guy 770 00:42:56.519 --> 00:42:59.039 knows what he's doing with those ups and downs, those 771 00:42:59.119 --> 00:43:04.480 ups and downs plain full. Yeah, So often wondered about 772 00:43:04.480 --> 00:43:06.199 like it was all dirty best to do in. 773 00:43:06.159 --> 00:43:08.960 That wule things. It's like Toby. 774 00:43:09.000 --> 00:43:14.559 For instance, in the hagar Quinn ruins, you find depictions 775 00:43:14.559 --> 00:43:17.760 of this very and forgive me, I'm not criticizing these 776 00:43:17.880 --> 00:43:19.320 very fat ladies. 777 00:43:21.039 --> 00:43:22.239 On these stones. 778 00:43:22.239 --> 00:43:26.079 They are depicted there and for many people these are 779 00:43:26.440 --> 00:43:30.199 considered to be the real sirens. So they would sing. 780 00:43:30.840 --> 00:43:33.920 Groups of these ladies would sing with their powerful voices 781 00:43:34.079 --> 00:43:36.800 into the temple, and the temple would reflect this sound 782 00:43:36.880 --> 00:43:40.639 into the sea. That can be used either to call 783 00:43:40.800 --> 00:43:44.280 ships into the to the rocks, or to make people 784 00:43:44.400 --> 00:43:47.840 mad while they are at sea and causing the mess 785 00:43:47.960 --> 00:43:51.199 of the sirens. Right, So, depending on what kind of 786 00:43:51.679 --> 00:43:54.519 magic you're trying to create, you have to use the 787 00:43:54.639 --> 00:43:57.159 right tool for the job. So and the right tool 788 00:43:57.239 --> 00:44:00.119 may include the person, the tone, the language. By with 789 00:44:00.199 --> 00:44:03.280 all of that, that was what I was trying to 790 00:44:03.320 --> 00:44:05.719 convey since the first question. M. 791 00:44:07.400 --> 00:44:10.440 Yeah, yeah, I mean that's that's one reason to study 792 00:44:10.519 --> 00:44:13.400 language as a phenomenon, is you you brought in your 793 00:44:13.440 --> 00:44:16.400 palette of what's what's there, and you know you haven't 794 00:44:17.079 --> 00:44:19.880 find new pieces that you can use to create something new. 795 00:44:21.320 --> 00:44:24.079 I had a question, so you were talking about the 796 00:44:24.159 --> 00:44:28.239 rely on language. Is that the is that the Cthulu language. 797 00:44:27.880 --> 00:44:31.519 That yeah, a Queeno usually called it, you Gothic, but 798 00:44:31.519 --> 00:44:34.960 but yes, sort of same same, same idea. 799 00:44:36.119 --> 00:44:38.760 It's kind of interesting because you've got the glass Alia 800 00:44:38.960 --> 00:44:42.199 like in the PGM, like you referenced earlier, where they 801 00:44:42.199 --> 00:44:45.880 have these long strings of different vowel sounds that are 802 00:44:45.920 --> 00:44:48.480 supposed to be doing something, but it's it's not too 803 00:44:48.519 --> 00:44:51.239 obvious exactly what it is that they meant in the 804 00:44:51.440 --> 00:44:54.960 in the translation, right, you know. 805 00:44:54.880 --> 00:44:59.679 Some some of those words are are borrowed and either 806 00:44:59.679 --> 00:45:02.679 direct or like in a corrupted way from other languages 807 00:45:02.679 --> 00:45:04.679 around them, because there was this this very deep idea 808 00:45:04.760 --> 00:45:09.280 that foreign things are magic, foreign gods, foreign words, foreign 809 00:45:10.000 --> 00:45:14.800 ways of writing, et cetera. And yeah, some of them 810 00:45:14.880 --> 00:45:17.840 is probably is glossal Aelia who are speaking in tongues 811 00:45:20.039 --> 00:45:24.159 and and one of things I do find fascinating is 812 00:45:24.159 --> 00:45:26.119 the way that they use They do use the vowels, 813 00:45:26.119 --> 00:45:28.679 because you'll see like strings of vowels, and sometimes you'll 814 00:45:28.679 --> 00:45:31.639 see them even though they'll have like ordered arrangements of vowels, 815 00:45:31.639 --> 00:45:33.880 like like in a pyramid or or things like this 816 00:45:34.119 --> 00:45:36.360 that that are not just on the written page. It's 817 00:45:36.400 --> 00:45:38.920 like as part of the ritual, you're supposed to write 818 00:45:38.920 --> 00:45:41.880 that yourself. It's part of you going back to the 819 00:45:41.880 --> 00:45:44.960 idea of thought writing things into reality. You're making you're 820 00:45:45.039 --> 00:45:50.039 you're taking something abstract, the sound, and now you're literally 821 00:45:50.039 --> 00:45:52.119 writing into the fabric of the universe as part of 822 00:45:52.119 --> 00:45:55.920 this ritual. So you're you're connecting what's within you with 823 00:45:56.039 --> 00:45:58.559 like the world that's outside of you as part of it. 824 00:45:58.960 --> 00:46:02.440 I think that, combined with the ideas like the continuous 825 00:46:02.519 --> 00:46:05.119 nature of vowels and the unrestricted nature of the way 826 00:46:05.159 --> 00:46:09.639 we articulate them, I think all those are part part 827 00:46:09.760 --> 00:46:13.960 of the toolkit they were drawing from when they're someone 828 00:46:14.079 --> 00:46:16.880 was working with one of those rituals and taking all 829 00:46:16.920 --> 00:46:19.280 these pieces and pulling together. Because it's a very syncretic thing, 830 00:46:19.320 --> 00:46:21.239 there's lots of stuff that's pulled in from different places 831 00:46:21.280 --> 00:46:26.760 and different different traditions, and you know, you have some 832 00:46:26.840 --> 00:46:30.400 things that are like seem to be different rituals that 833 00:46:30.480 --> 00:46:34.320 were crammed together, like the right of the Headless One, 834 00:46:34.559 --> 00:46:38.960 you know. So it's very it's a very kind of 835 00:46:39.000 --> 00:46:41.760 like kitchen sync approach to magic about wait, this works, 836 00:46:41.760 --> 00:46:44.639 all right. I'm using it because it's very pragmatic. It 837 00:46:44.679 --> 00:46:48.559 is very an around what works. But that idea that 838 00:46:48.559 --> 00:46:51.760 that underlying so many of the rituals and the PGM 839 00:46:51.840 --> 00:46:55.239 is the idea that words are magic in and of themselves, 840 00:46:55.320 --> 00:46:58.159 the idea that that I can make these sounds and 841 00:46:58.199 --> 00:47:01.119 now it carries not just the mean really like a 842 00:47:01.199 --> 00:47:03.880 mundane meaning of what this thing is, but it also 843 00:47:04.039 --> 00:47:09.199 carries this conceptual meaning that that I'm ringing to it, 844 00:47:09.320 --> 00:47:12.199 I'm adding as part of the meaning. That's that's what 845 00:47:13.119 --> 00:47:15.639 that's the core when I talk about the semiotic theory magic. 846 00:47:15.719 --> 00:47:17.239 That's the core of what I'm talking about is that 847 00:47:17.280 --> 00:47:20.840 we use the signs of any type, whether it's words 848 00:47:20.960 --> 00:47:25.199 or something written or sound, et cetera, and we're overloading 849 00:47:25.239 --> 00:47:27.239 it with meaning. We're giving more meaning beyond just what 850 00:47:27.400 --> 00:47:30.000 is already inherently part of it, or what is conventionally 851 00:47:30.000 --> 00:47:34.480 part of it, but using that to you to carry 852 00:47:34.480 --> 00:47:35.000 our intent. 853 00:47:36.440 --> 00:47:39.719 Sure. Look, I understand very little of all of this, 854 00:47:39.960 --> 00:47:44.119 but I always saw a language in terms of magic 855 00:47:44.599 --> 00:47:49.440 as a way of conveying sound and transforming to a 856 00:47:49.559 --> 00:47:53.079 key that will fit a hole that is cosmic and 857 00:47:53.239 --> 00:47:56.960 unique to that specific key that you are creating. So 858 00:47:57.000 --> 00:48:00.000 the more perfect the key is the closest you get 859 00:48:00.199 --> 00:48:02.039 to open the door that you're trying to open. 860 00:48:04.360 --> 00:48:06.840 Yeah, I mean it's really uh. I mean some of 861 00:48:06.840 --> 00:48:08.280 that and I talk about that in the languages of 862 00:48:08.320 --> 00:48:11.280 the magic. Some of that's about communication theory, you know, 863 00:48:11.280 --> 00:48:14.199 the how how we communicate. There's there's a there's an 864 00:48:14.199 --> 00:48:17.519 idea in community in different communication theories, and there are 865 00:48:17.519 --> 00:48:19.480 a lot of communication theories, but there's an idea that's 866 00:48:19.480 --> 00:48:22.280 common to a lot of them, the idea that there 867 00:48:22.320 --> 00:48:24.719 has to be some level of similarity between conversants. The 868 00:48:24.760 --> 00:48:27.639 idea like, for example, we're speaking English, right, and so 869 00:48:29.159 --> 00:48:31.679 like the extent to which you and your listeners are 870 00:48:31.760 --> 00:48:33.840 able to understand me is going to be hardly a 871 00:48:33.840 --> 00:48:37.960 function of their own ability to understand and speak English. 872 00:48:38.039 --> 00:48:39.679 So we have to have some level of similarity. If 873 00:48:39.719 --> 00:48:45.800 I started speaking German, you know, maybe fewer listeners understand 874 00:48:45.840 --> 00:48:49.039 what I'm saying because they don't speak German. So there's 875 00:48:49.119 --> 00:48:52.440 idea that communication doesn't have to be exact equals, but 876 00:48:52.480 --> 00:48:55.760 they have to be somewhat relative equals in order to 877 00:48:55.840 --> 00:49:00.320 even have the ability to understand. And the semiotic theory 878 00:49:00.320 --> 00:49:02.840 of magic of one of the parts of it is 879 00:49:02.840 --> 00:49:06.559 is that you know you're in communication with something, whether 880 00:49:06.599 --> 00:49:10.800 it's within with your with your current or future self, 881 00:49:10.840 --> 00:49:13.960 whether it's with the Animatama, unomathith best world, whether it's 882 00:49:14.000 --> 00:49:17.079 with someone that you're attempting to work some type of 883 00:49:17.119 --> 00:49:19.800 magic on to behave in a certain way, et cetera. 884 00:49:21.159 --> 00:49:24.400 But if you're not communicative effectively with them, if you're 885 00:49:24.400 --> 00:49:27.079 not you know, broadly following the rules of the language 886 00:49:27.079 --> 00:49:29.800 you're speaking and the person or the thing you're talking 887 00:49:29.840 --> 00:49:31.519 to is and understand it, then you're not gonna get 888 00:49:31.559 --> 00:49:33.679 your point across. And that's very much like what you're saying, 889 00:49:33.760 --> 00:49:35.519 or the idea that you have to find. You have 890 00:49:35.599 --> 00:49:38.360 to find the thing to which your partner communication will 891 00:49:38.400 --> 00:49:41.360 be responsive. And that's the case whether it's you know, 892 00:49:41.559 --> 00:49:45.039 ordering your coffee at Starbucks, or whether it's whether it's 893 00:49:45.679 --> 00:49:47.480 you know, impressing your will in the universe as part 894 00:49:47.480 --> 00:49:50.239 of as part of magic. So these things kind of 895 00:49:50.320 --> 00:49:53.079 they build on it. So like in the Languages of magic, 896 00:49:53.239 --> 00:49:57.079 and and really the start of Infernal Geometry, the Languages 897 00:49:57.119 --> 00:49:59.280 of Magic, my second book is in some ways it's 898 00:49:59.280 --> 00:50:01.639 an out growth and a generalization of some of the 899 00:50:01.679 --> 00:50:08.320 ideas in infernal Geometry. But that idea that you build 900 00:50:08.360 --> 00:50:12.519 on a foundation of effective communication, and then you add 901 00:50:12.559 --> 00:50:15.719 onto that magical intent. You add onto that ways of 902 00:50:15.760 --> 00:50:19.840 speaking and communicating that are peculiar to magic, that maybe 903 00:50:19.880 --> 00:50:22.519 don't make the same amount of sense, or maybe don't 904 00:50:22.519 --> 00:50:25.000 have the same effect or have the same meaning outside 905 00:50:25.000 --> 00:50:29.360 of a magical context. And the effectiveness of your magic 906 00:50:29.400 --> 00:50:31.480 will largely be a function of the effectiveness of the 907 00:50:31.480 --> 00:50:35.559 communication that you put the magic into. So yeah, so 908 00:50:35.599 --> 00:50:37.800 what you're saying is absolutely in line with the way 909 00:50:37.800 --> 00:50:42.920 that I've been approaching magic, and I rely absolutely with 910 00:50:43.000 --> 00:50:44.159 all the stuff that you're saying there. 911 00:50:44.599 --> 00:50:47.400 Think you So you would say that the cosmos or 912 00:50:47.400 --> 00:50:52.679 the fabric of reality doesn't have a specific requirement for language, 913 00:50:52.760 --> 00:51:01.199 but a specific requirements for a tone or a frequency 914 00:51:01.480 --> 00:51:04.960 or that doesn't have to be connected to a specific language, 915 00:51:05.199 --> 00:51:08.519 but can be adapted or does it mean that when 916 00:51:08.559 --> 00:51:11.360 you look at the ancient languages, they were actually looking 917 00:51:11.519 --> 00:51:15.960 for that exact same match to the language of a 918 00:51:16.000 --> 00:51:20.079 fabric of reality to break it and bend it to 919 00:51:20.159 --> 00:51:21.800 their own intentions. 920 00:51:22.599 --> 00:51:27.320 Well, one of things about communication that's always conditioned by context, right, 921 00:51:27.719 --> 00:51:33.480 So the context affects the meaning of what said, sort 922 00:51:33.480 --> 00:51:35.760 of the idea of like if you say certain words 923 00:51:35.800 --> 00:51:39.400 in a magical working, they don't have the same effect 924 00:51:39.519 --> 00:51:41.159 or the same intent as you've said them if you 925 00:51:41.199 --> 00:51:43.800 just stand up in the subway and say the same thing. Right, 926 00:51:44.280 --> 00:51:52.079 So for what you're you're saying, I would say broadly yes, 927 00:51:52.159 --> 00:51:54.559 but I would add the caveat that it's always going 928 00:51:54.639 --> 00:51:58.559 to be context specific, not just the specific thing you're 929 00:51:58.559 --> 00:52:03.000 trying to do that magical, but also the specific circumstances 930 00:52:03.079 --> 00:52:06.039 of when and how you're doing it as well. So like, 931 00:52:06.599 --> 00:52:11.559 for example, if I am I would not use the 932 00:52:11.599 --> 00:52:16.199 same words and gestures and et cetera. If I'm doing 933 00:52:16.639 --> 00:52:19.840 a working in the middle of the shopping mall is 934 00:52:19.840 --> 00:52:23.280 when I'm doing working in my apartment, right, And it's 935 00:52:23.320 --> 00:52:25.400 not because I care what people think or whatever, but 936 00:52:25.440 --> 00:52:30.599 it's because there are other parts of the situation of 937 00:52:30.639 --> 00:52:34.400 being out in the world that affect what I'm trying 938 00:52:34.400 --> 00:52:36.280 to say, the meaning to what I'm trying to say, 939 00:52:36.280 --> 00:52:39.280 in ways that are different than if I am, you know, 940 00:52:39.360 --> 00:52:44.440 underneath the night sky or whatever. So yes, So I 941 00:52:44.440 --> 00:52:47.360 don't think there's a single universal like you like you 942 00:52:47.360 --> 00:52:49.280 do this and you're always guaranteed to have success. But 943 00:52:49.639 --> 00:52:51.119 I think that it is. And this is part of 944 00:52:51.119 --> 00:52:56.480 the experimental nature of magic, is that you you have 945 00:52:56.559 --> 00:52:59.800 to have enough tools in your bag so that you 946 00:52:59.840 --> 00:53:02.119 can and figure out what tools are going to work 947 00:53:02.159 --> 00:53:05.199 right now in this particular situation to get the result 948 00:53:05.239 --> 00:53:09.159 that I'm looking for, knowing that even if you try 949 00:53:09.199 --> 00:53:11.639 to do the same thing tomorrow night, you may need 950 00:53:11.639 --> 00:53:15.360 different tools because other things may have changed around the context. 951 00:53:15.519 --> 00:53:18.679 Does that make sense? So so it's not like it's 952 00:53:18.719 --> 00:53:20.599 like it's like, Okay, I figured it out, now, let's 953 00:53:20.599 --> 00:53:23.239 just keep doing this and I'm set. It's you have 954 00:53:23.280 --> 00:53:26.719 to kind of figured it out each time. But but 955 00:53:26.840 --> 00:53:29.639 there will be things that you can draw on that 956 00:53:29.639 --> 00:53:32.559 that are perennial favorites you know that that will tend 957 00:53:32.599 --> 00:53:34.199 to have a have an effect. And that's part of 958 00:53:34.199 --> 00:53:36.760 like knowing your own style of magic, but also knowing 959 00:53:36.880 --> 00:53:38.880 like what works best with the type of things you're 960 00:53:38.880 --> 00:53:41.559 trying to work magic magic for, because like the you know, 961 00:53:41.599 --> 00:53:45.239 if you're trying to I don't know, just picking like 962 00:53:45.280 --> 00:53:47.559 stuff for the magical papyri. If if you're doing like 963 00:53:47.599 --> 00:53:50.039 a you know, a spell to enhance your memory, then 964 00:53:50.079 --> 00:53:51.719 you're going to approach that a different way than if 965 00:53:51.719 --> 00:53:54.800 you're doing a spell because you know, because I need 966 00:53:54.840 --> 00:53:57.840 a lover, right, some of those may work on both 967 00:53:58.519 --> 00:54:04.239 you know, not gonna judge, but but but all those 968 00:54:04.239 --> 00:54:08.159 things are part of the context, right, So so you know, 969 00:54:08.519 --> 00:54:10.480 the thing I think that people make a mistake with 970 00:54:10.519 --> 00:54:12.960 a magic a lot. And this is something to ask 971 00:54:13.079 --> 00:54:15.800 don Web about too specifically because I'm gonna blame him 972 00:54:15.800 --> 00:54:20.119 for this idea is the idea that that if you 973 00:54:20.199 --> 00:54:24.719 just have the right cookbook, then you're set right. Yeah, 974 00:54:24.760 --> 00:54:29.800 And it's more that the cookbook is the cookbook gives 975 00:54:29.800 --> 00:54:32.280 you the things to pull from to you to kind 976 00:54:32.280 --> 00:54:34.880 of mix it up in the pot the right way 977 00:54:35.599 --> 00:54:38.000 you need it tonight sort of sort of like you know, 978 00:54:38.039 --> 00:54:39.559 you may have like a recipe you make the same 979 00:54:39.599 --> 00:54:42.440 recipe a bunch you know, like like you know what 980 00:54:42.480 --> 00:54:47.360 tonight I want more cilantro right, So I can you 981 00:54:47.480 --> 00:54:51.119 have you're responding like the needs of the moment. Even 982 00:54:51.159 --> 00:54:53.679 if you're relying on something that you've had loss of 983 00:54:53.719 --> 00:54:56.400 success with that they know is a good general framework 984 00:54:56.440 --> 00:54:58.360 for you, you still have to kind of think about 985 00:54:58.400 --> 00:55:00.440 what does it mean now and what can be most 986 00:55:00.440 --> 00:55:01.599 effective at this point in time. 987 00:55:02.679 --> 00:55:06.280 Sure so, so you think that architecture was developed in 988 00:55:06.360 --> 00:55:10.920 terms of temple construction was developed to enhance that effect, 989 00:55:11.079 --> 00:55:17.280 to to to to help the lack of ability of 990 00:55:17.440 --> 00:55:21.719 the languages as it evolved, in order to compensate for that. 991 00:55:21.960 --> 00:55:25.599 And so the ambient that is created by expressing yourself 992 00:55:25.679 --> 00:55:31.119 within these specifically made structures that convey some resonance and harmony, 993 00:55:31.639 --> 00:55:35.679 it was specifically to enhance that inability of the language 994 00:55:35.800 --> 00:55:38.400 or the human being in itself. Why the use of 995 00:55:38.440 --> 00:55:41.719 a choir or or the echo or. 996 00:55:43.480 --> 00:55:46.679 In some cases definitely, I mean the Greeks for masters 997 00:55:46.679 --> 00:55:48.679 of that. They were there. The way that they constructed 998 00:55:48.679 --> 00:55:51.320 amphitheaters and so forth, and the masks that people wore 999 00:55:51.400 --> 00:55:53.079 to help their project or to help them make or 1000 00:55:53.119 --> 00:55:55.760 not make certain sounds was very was very much part 1001 00:55:55.800 --> 00:56:00.320 of that. I've not studied that extensively. My my my feeling, 1002 00:56:00.360 --> 00:56:01.639 and this is just me kind of going off the 1003 00:56:01.679 --> 00:56:04.119 top of my head. So it don't shoot me if 1004 00:56:04.119 --> 00:56:09.000 there's an academic paper that says this is nonsense. Is 1005 00:56:09.039 --> 00:56:11.199 that in a lot of cases that would have been 1006 00:56:11.199 --> 00:56:13.639 part of the consideration. But the thing is, I think 1007 00:56:13.679 --> 00:56:17.000 in a lot of cases things were built in certain 1008 00:56:17.039 --> 00:56:19.559 ways just because that's why we build that. You know, 1009 00:56:19.599 --> 00:56:22.039 it wasn't so much or maybe maybe they for they 1010 00:56:22.039 --> 00:56:24.199 had forgotten at one point we did it this far 1011 00:56:24.199 --> 00:56:27.320 away for a specific reason. But now but now I 1012 00:56:27.400 --> 00:56:28.760 just build it that way because that's the way. That's 1013 00:56:28.760 --> 00:56:31.119 the way we build those things. So that's what So 1014 00:56:31.119 --> 00:56:32.280 that's what I mean when I say that like in 1015 00:56:32.320 --> 00:56:36.320 some cases, In some cases absolutely definitely the case, and 1016 00:56:36.360 --> 00:56:39.079 o there's maybe not so much. Like for example, one 1017 00:56:39.079 --> 00:56:42.079 of my favorite sort of modernish examples of that is 1018 00:56:42.119 --> 00:56:47.280 in the the underground chamber at the Bevelsburg Castle. You know, 1019 00:56:47.280 --> 00:56:50.840 if you want to get your conspiracy uh listeners go 1020 00:56:50.880 --> 00:56:55.480 a going big time well because because within that it 1021 00:56:55.519 --> 00:56:59.000 is actually constructed so that the light converges in the 1022 00:56:59.039 --> 00:57:01.119 center of the room and then converges in the center 1023 00:57:01.239 --> 00:57:02.960 of the room, so they're like if you're staying in 1024 00:57:02.960 --> 00:57:05.239 the in the middle, and I've been there, and I've 1025 00:57:05.400 --> 00:57:08.639 tested this for myself. If you if you're staying in 1026 00:57:08.639 --> 00:57:10.400 the middle, then if someone speaking in a whisper at 1027 00:57:10.400 --> 00:57:11.639 the other end of the room, you can hear it 1028 00:57:11.639 --> 00:57:14.800 just like they're right there in your ears, and you 1029 00:57:15.159 --> 00:57:16.920 take you take a step off the center and the 1030 00:57:17.199 --> 00:57:21.679 effect is gone. Yes, yeah, so so things like that 1031 00:57:21.360 --> 00:57:26.559 that deliberate, that deliberate sound design, and is absolutely there 1032 00:57:26.880 --> 00:57:28.840 in in many many temples. 1033 00:57:29.159 --> 00:57:34.920 Surely any when when the person is inside the article 1034 00:57:35.039 --> 00:57:37.599 room and and the article is on the outside way 1035 00:57:37.679 --> 00:57:40.440 the niche, and the speaking to the niche, the persons 1036 00:57:40.440 --> 00:57:44.039 that are inside the article room would understand perfectly what 1037 00:57:44.159 --> 00:57:47.079 is he saying, But everyone that is outside that room 1038 00:57:47.119 --> 00:57:52.159 would hear gibbish literally gibberish. Right, it mixes up the 1039 00:57:52.199 --> 00:57:57.280 sounds right, exactly so and well in the case same thing, sorry, 1040 00:57:57.360 --> 00:58:00.559 in the case of amphitheaters with or without to mask. 1041 00:58:01.039 --> 00:58:05.079 What we can't exactly understand is how you can whisper 1042 00:58:05.719 --> 00:58:08.960 in the stage and the person that is further from 1043 00:58:09.000 --> 00:58:12.800 the stage on the top stair would hear that whisper 1044 00:58:12.840 --> 00:58:15.519 as it was being said to his ear right, and 1045 00:58:15.559 --> 00:58:19.480 it's an open space, right, so there's magic in the 1046 00:58:19.519 --> 00:58:22.039 space itself. Let's let's put it that way. 1047 00:58:22.079 --> 00:58:24.280 So yeah, I. 1048 00:58:24.280 --> 00:58:27.960 Mean a lot of that. Like today today we understand 1049 00:58:28.079 --> 00:58:33.840 enough about acoustics to explicitly, like mathematically design such spaces 1050 00:58:35.320 --> 00:58:38.199 and and I think some of that knowledge was known, 1051 00:58:39.000 --> 00:58:42.400 some of the mathematical how sound moves and why was known, 1052 00:58:42.480 --> 00:58:45.239 like in ancient Greece, for example, But a lot of 1053 00:58:45.320 --> 00:58:47.480 it would have just been experimental. I think once it 1054 00:58:47.559 --> 00:58:50.320 may be something somebody stumbled across it by accident, and 1055 00:58:50.360 --> 00:58:51.800 then it was like, oh, that's cool, we got to 1056 00:58:51.880 --> 00:58:53.920 keep doing that. And then they kind of they kind 1057 00:58:53.920 --> 00:58:55.760 of build it into the way that they do things, 1058 00:58:56.559 --> 00:58:58.239 because that's one of one of the things about about 1059 00:58:58.239 --> 00:59:02.079 the way humans build on the products of human culture 1060 00:59:02.159 --> 00:59:04.599 is we kind of borrow bits and pieces and we go, oh, 1061 00:59:04.639 --> 00:59:06.400 I like that, and I like that, let's put those 1062 00:59:06.400 --> 00:59:09.960 together and see what happens. And so, like you know, 1063 00:59:10.000 --> 00:59:14.519 they've become part of the architectural language, if you will, 1064 00:59:14.519 --> 00:59:21.000 about how you build those spaces. A diffusion basically, yeah, yeah. 1065 00:59:20.239 --> 00:59:22.880 Would you say, Toby that where would you agree with 1066 00:59:22.920 --> 00:59:27.199 the idea that perhaps syntax and perhaps even grammar itself 1067 00:59:27.320 --> 00:59:32.559 arises in synthesis, like the convergence of the light and 1068 00:59:32.639 --> 00:59:34.639 the sound, like when you were given the example of 1069 00:59:34.679 --> 00:59:35.159 the castle. 1070 00:59:41.360 --> 00:59:45.960 In some cases, yeah, I mean in the way most 1071 00:59:46.039 --> 00:59:50.400 languages sort of came about. A lot of that is 1072 00:59:50.480 --> 00:59:54.440 just you know, historical happenstance. There's not a lot. Most 1073 00:59:54.519 --> 00:59:58.360 languages are far less designed than you might assume, especially 1074 00:59:58.400 --> 01:00:01.119 given like you know, when say, these are the rules 1075 01:00:01.119 --> 01:00:03.760 about how the syntax works for this. You know, there's 1076 01:00:03.760 --> 01:00:08.639 a difference between prescriptive and descriptive linguistics. Where you're describing, 1077 01:00:08.760 --> 01:00:11.840 you're describing this is this is how they ended up with, 1078 01:00:12.679 --> 01:00:15.320 you know, the word order in English or whatever. And 1079 01:00:15.360 --> 01:00:17.679 then there's prescriptive, which is like you're, you know, your 1080 01:00:17.760 --> 01:00:20.280 third grade teacher telling you not to endscendence with the preposition. Right, 1081 01:00:21.119 --> 01:00:23.400 there's no inherent reason why you have to say that 1082 01:00:23.440 --> 01:00:27.880 you can't ind ascendence in English with a preposition. It'shift 1083 01:00:27.960 --> 01:00:30.920 that somebody you know, decided that's that's what we're going 1084 01:00:31.000 --> 01:00:34.480 to do now. Actually, in in relation of Latin, where 1085 01:00:34.480 --> 01:00:35.880 a lot of that stuff came from same thing with 1086 01:00:35.920 --> 01:00:41.639 splitting infinitives. But the thing is, and this goes back 1087 01:00:41.639 --> 01:00:43.960 to some of the pattern recognition discussions we were having. 1088 01:00:44.039 --> 01:00:48.639 I think, once once certain patterns in language like that 1089 01:00:48.719 --> 01:00:52.400 are are understood, you can you can now start to 1090 01:00:52.480 --> 01:00:54.559 work with them as if they were put there deliberately. 1091 01:00:55.480 --> 01:00:59.039 And and but we forget sometimes that just because I 1092 01:00:59.039 --> 01:01:01.480 can work with this as if this was a deliberate choice, 1093 01:01:01.880 --> 01:01:03.719 maybe it doesn't necessarily mean that was the case. It 1094 01:01:03.760 --> 01:01:05.840 just means that it has that effect for me in 1095 01:01:05.880 --> 01:01:07.039 the way that I use it. 1096 01:01:08.079 --> 01:01:13.079 No, that makes a great deal Oh sorry, Joe, I apologize, No, 1097 01:01:13.400 --> 01:01:16.079 you're good. I just want to say, that makes a 1098 01:01:16.079 --> 01:01:18.239 great deal of sense to me what you said, because 1099 01:01:18.480 --> 01:01:21.840 there's an idea in contra that perhaps, like what you're saying, 1100 01:01:21.880 --> 01:01:25.960 like this layer of consciousness, you're seeing the word order 1101 01:01:26.039 --> 01:01:28.760 for the first time, but you're perceiving it in a 1102 01:01:28.880 --> 01:01:32.639 subtle way, maybe a magical sense or hermoneutic sense, like 1103 01:01:32.679 --> 01:01:35.360 you're seeing what the language means or the logos behind it, 1104 01:01:35.400 --> 01:01:39.119 perhaps even and then you're able to remix it, You're 1105 01:01:39.159 --> 01:01:42.199 able to change the grammar. So this is related in 1106 01:01:42.280 --> 01:01:46.400 contra to rojas or the music like the Indian raug us. 1107 01:01:46.400 --> 01:01:49.079 But obviously we're thinking of it in a more transgressive 1108 01:01:49.199 --> 01:01:52.760 or contric way. So it's not like court music, but 1109 01:01:52.840 --> 01:01:55.719 perhaps it's taking the form of court music. And then 1110 01:01:55.800 --> 01:01:58.159 like what Don Webb talks about, he's creating like a 1111 01:01:58.239 --> 01:02:04.440 parafiction by remixing real things in a different order, changing 1112 01:02:04.480 --> 01:02:06.960 the syntax. And when you were giving the example of 1113 01:02:07.480 --> 01:02:10.079 like magic, perhaps you're walking the mall. I know nobody 1114 01:02:10.079 --> 01:02:12.880 goes to the mall anymore, but we'll go with that metaphor. 1115 01:02:12.880 --> 01:02:16.880 It's a good But I'm also example from my youth. 1116 01:02:16.800 --> 01:02:20.840 Right, so you would draw from the things that you know, 1117 01:02:20.960 --> 01:02:23.119 like you were saying, like it as someone, I also 1118 01:02:23.199 --> 01:02:26.239 pray like Nick was saying, I also pray in other 1119 01:02:26.320 --> 01:02:30.840 languages that I don't actually speak. So it's that's interesting. 1120 01:02:31.280 --> 01:02:33.400 And I know from other people who are interested in 1121 01:02:33.480 --> 01:02:37.679 temple of some materials that they basically always emphasize the 1122 01:02:37.719 --> 01:02:42.639 idea of the malleability, a kind of like flexibility, a 1123 01:02:42.679 --> 01:02:46.920 flexibility of consciousness of like how can you I always 1124 01:02:46.920 --> 01:02:49.800 call it the tree because I'm a little more into 1125 01:02:49.880 --> 01:02:53.280 the traditional cabala, but I'm trying to be flexible in 1126 01:02:53.320 --> 01:02:57.719 my articulation of the other systems as well. So but yeah, 1127 01:02:57.760 --> 01:02:59.800 you have to be able to I'm going to use 1128 01:02:59.800 --> 01:03:02.719 a sort of a poor metaphor but skin the tree 1129 01:03:02.920 --> 01:03:04.800 and then also be able to kind of zip it 1130 01:03:04.840 --> 01:03:08.360 back up and then say this is my formulation, but 1131 01:03:08.400 --> 01:03:11.519 you're drawing from real things. So I just want to 1132 01:03:11.559 --> 01:03:13.360 say that I thought that was very profound that you 1133 01:03:13.360 --> 01:03:17.039 saw that, Toby. But the linguistics element, even though I 1134 01:03:17.079 --> 01:03:21.199 am multilingual, is a little outside of my purview. But 1135 01:03:21.519 --> 01:03:25.519 I think the semionics angle that you're bringing is really interesting. 1136 01:03:25.559 --> 01:03:28.639 And I wanted to know if Marshall McLuhan's work. Obviously 1137 01:03:28.639 --> 01:03:31.639 this is kind of a normy media SETI scholar, but 1138 01:03:31.920 --> 01:03:33.920 a very interesting one for a lot of people. And 1139 01:03:34.039 --> 01:03:37.760 I want to know what his if he influenced your 1140 01:03:37.800 --> 01:03:39.320 work and in what ways. 1141 01:03:39.360 --> 01:03:43.960 And so mclulan as a person is far less normally 1142 01:03:44.039 --> 01:03:47.840 than a lot of people realize. Dude was very strange 1143 01:03:48.360 --> 01:03:56.039 and like the most endearing inspirational why possible. So mclelan 1144 01:03:56.960 --> 01:03:58.880 has not been a human influence of my work so far. 1145 01:03:58.880 --> 01:04:03.199 However it's becoming a big influence. Uh you know specific, 1146 01:04:03.239 --> 01:04:04.639 you know, the thing that's most well known from local 1147 01:04:04.639 --> 01:04:07.679 witness his idea that the medium is the message, right 1148 01:04:07.719 --> 01:04:10.519 and by by that what he what he means, well, 1149 01:04:10.679 --> 01:04:12.000 one of the things he means, he means a lot 1150 01:04:12.039 --> 01:04:13.800 of things by it because he was very he was 1151 01:04:13.800 --> 01:04:16.480 a very multi level thinker. There's a lot of different 1152 01:04:16.559 --> 01:04:19.280 layers to everything that he's saying. He's one of those 1153 01:04:19.360 --> 01:04:21.679 one of those guys that was whatever he says like, 1154 01:04:21.719 --> 01:04:24.360 he's like ten steps ahead of you when when he 1155 01:04:24.400 --> 01:04:30.119 when he said it. But part of his idea with 1156 01:04:30.159 --> 01:04:33.559 the medium of the mess, the medium is the message, 1157 01:04:33.800 --> 01:04:39.360 is that the form that a communication takes, even before 1158 01:04:39.400 --> 01:04:42.480 you put the words or the symbols or whatever into it, 1159 01:04:42.559 --> 01:04:45.719 already has meaning that's there and you can't get rid 1160 01:04:45.760 --> 01:04:50.400 of that's already part of what it is. And that's 1161 01:04:50.440 --> 01:04:53.719 a that's a very powerful idea in semiotic terms because 1162 01:04:53.760 --> 01:04:56.440 it because what that's what you would say about that 1163 01:04:56.480 --> 01:04:59.639 in semiotic terms, is that there are some signs that 1164 01:04:59.679 --> 01:05:03.960 are part part of this particular message, that are inherently 1165 01:05:03.960 --> 01:05:06.000 part of the message itself. They're not added on top 1166 01:05:06.039 --> 01:05:08.599 of it. But then you you when you add other 1167 01:05:08.679 --> 01:05:12.840 signs into other words, et cetera, onto it, you are 1168 01:05:14.320 --> 01:05:16.840 it becomes the base that you build on. And so 1169 01:05:16.880 --> 01:05:20.079 that some media are better for conveying certain kinds of 1170 01:05:20.920 --> 01:05:24.360 messages than others, you know, very you know, very broad 1171 01:05:24.360 --> 01:05:26.440 stroke example, or that is like, think about what you 1172 01:05:26.480 --> 01:05:29.400 can convey in a visual meeting that you can't convey 1173 01:05:29.559 --> 01:05:32.039 just in a smoke and medium, right, you know, because 1174 01:05:32.039 --> 01:05:35.119 I could be making a you know, we're in a 1175 01:05:35.159 --> 01:05:37.599 visual media now, so like I'm moving my hands. You know, 1176 01:05:37.639 --> 01:05:39.440 you can see the books on the shelf behind me, 1177 01:05:39.719 --> 01:05:42.559 you know whatever else you know, that become part of 1178 01:05:42.599 --> 01:05:45.159 the message, right because like you may be you know, 1179 01:05:45.199 --> 01:05:47.000 you may have someone you're listort of squinting to see 1180 01:05:47.039 --> 01:05:49.559 what the books are on my shelf, right, they become 1181 01:05:49.559 --> 01:05:52.559 part of what I'm saying because you know, you know 1182 01:05:52.599 --> 01:05:54.559 this is I'm in my apartment, right, so those are 1183 01:05:54.599 --> 01:05:58.239 probably part of my influences, you know, behind me on 1184 01:05:58.280 --> 01:06:01.679 the wall, so that they're you know, you know, someone 1185 01:06:01.679 --> 01:06:03.400 may see a book and is like, oh, you read 1186 01:06:03.400 --> 01:06:05.320 that book? Okay, Now this thing he said makes sense 1187 01:06:05.400 --> 01:06:07.320 makes more sense to me because I know how that 1188 01:06:07.360 --> 01:06:10.920 person that wrote that book thinks. Right. But for anybody 1189 01:06:10.960 --> 01:06:12.599 that's listening to this, I don't know if you do 1190 01:06:12.599 --> 01:06:15.119 an audio only version of this, but if anybody's listening 1191 01:06:15.119 --> 01:06:16.960 to audio only, like they have no idea what I'm 1192 01:06:16.960 --> 01:06:18.719 talking about, because I can't see any of this, right, 1193 01:06:19.079 --> 01:06:23.639 So there are things that the I mean, this is 1194 01:06:24.000 --> 01:06:26.199 a very broad you know example, this is not even 1195 01:06:26.320 --> 01:06:28.320 like some of the subtlety that mcgoulan was working with, 1196 01:06:28.719 --> 01:06:31.480 but in this very broad example, like, there are obviously 1197 01:06:31.480 --> 01:06:34.840 some things that are part of this communication in one 1198 01:06:34.880 --> 01:06:38.880 medium that we're not not there in another medium. Now, 1199 01:06:38.880 --> 01:06:41.840 when you get more subtle with it, you can get 1200 01:06:41.880 --> 01:06:46.760 down to pretty pretty finally grained ideas of what the 1201 01:06:46.760 --> 01:06:52.159 medium is, you know, thinking about for example, like if 1202 01:06:52.199 --> 01:06:53.800 you're looking at a web page, is like a very 1203 01:06:53.800 --> 01:06:55.880 old kind of web design, like and you know, like 1204 01:06:55.920 --> 01:06:58.840 what an old web page looks like, right, you know, 1205 01:07:00.400 --> 01:07:03.320 and maybe miss certain features that we see in common 1206 01:07:03.320 --> 01:07:05.480 on the way we communicate on the web. Now it 1207 01:07:05.519 --> 01:07:07.920 may not be able to like, you know, hold your 1208 01:07:07.920 --> 01:07:10.199 mouse over a link and see certain things, or maybe 1209 01:07:11.519 --> 01:07:14.840 you know, the font the font can't show, you know, 1210 01:07:14.920 --> 01:07:16.599 some of the letters that we're used to seeing now, 1211 01:07:16.639 --> 01:07:19.599 so like you're literally missing part of the words because 1212 01:07:19.599 --> 01:07:22.119 they're not showing up as opposed to like a very 1213 01:07:22.119 --> 01:07:24.159 modern designed web page. I mean, those are kind of 1214 01:07:24.199 --> 01:07:26.800 two variations of the same kind of medium, but they're 1215 01:07:26.840 --> 01:07:29.199 each like their own kind of sub media in and 1216 01:07:29.239 --> 01:07:32.440 of themselves as well. And when you get into that 1217 01:07:32.440 --> 01:07:36.360 that level of subtlety around what exactly does this type 1218 01:07:36.360 --> 01:07:41.480 of medium good at conveying, you can you can go 1219 01:07:41.599 --> 01:07:44.360 pretty deep on the way. You can start with the 1220 01:07:44.400 --> 01:07:48.000 implicit message that the medium itself conveys, and then what 1221 01:07:48.039 --> 01:07:52.599 you have on top of that message to make something 1222 01:07:52.639 --> 01:07:55.519 more complex on top of it. So, yeah, the other 1223 01:07:55.639 --> 01:07:58.519 the other place where mcclulan actually does intersect with my 1224 01:07:58.559 --> 01:08:01.559 work in a big way. And this is mclul and 1225 01:08:01.599 --> 01:08:03.159 somebody has been aware. I've been aware of for a 1226 01:08:03.159 --> 01:08:05.599 long time, but have not really looked at closely until 1227 01:08:05.679 --> 01:08:14.079 fairly recently. But later in his life, the French philosopher 1228 01:08:14.159 --> 01:08:19.760 Jean Beaudriard became very enamored with mcclulan's work. Baugurard is 1229 01:08:19.760 --> 01:08:22.359 most well known for the idea of the simulationists of 1230 01:08:22.359 --> 01:08:27.439 the lacrum. It's not he's not that we're living in 1231 01:08:27.439 --> 01:08:29.960 a simulation. That's other that's other people's ideas. This is 1232 01:08:30.039 --> 01:08:32.439 more about the idea that as we have like copies 1233 01:08:32.479 --> 01:08:35.520 of copies of copies of copies of cultural things, eventually 1234 01:08:35.600 --> 01:08:37.800 like we lose sight of what the original thing was, 1235 01:08:38.399 --> 01:08:40.880 and so like we're interacting with the thing in a 1236 01:08:40.880 --> 01:08:43.760 different way, though we think of it like it's the 1237 01:08:43.800 --> 01:08:48.119 original thing, but it's not anymore, the kind of detached 1238 01:08:48.479 --> 01:08:51.760 way that our culture is kind of like endlessly remixed itself. 1239 01:08:53.359 --> 01:08:57.199 But Beaudriard Beaugurard died in like two thousand and three 1240 01:08:57.359 --> 01:08:59.520 or so, I think, so maybe by the last five 1241 01:08:59.560 --> 01:09:02.359 or six year he became very namorald with McLuhan's work 1242 01:09:02.439 --> 01:09:04.760 and saw that as very McLuhan is very much a 1243 01:09:04.840 --> 01:09:09.600 kindred spirit, and I'm very influenced by Boudrea's work. In fact, 1244 01:09:09.800 --> 01:09:13.000 the what I what I put forth in the languages 1245 01:09:13.039 --> 01:09:16.239 of magic as a word that I prefer instead of 1246 01:09:16.279 --> 01:09:19.840 magic is the word semi urgy, going back to my 1247 01:09:19.840 --> 01:09:23.920 my website semi urges dot com, et cetera. For Boudriart, 1248 01:09:23.960 --> 01:09:27.960 semi urgy was the creation in the wielding of signs, 1249 01:09:28.479 --> 01:09:31.520 which is a very magical thing to do, especially if 1250 01:09:31.560 --> 01:09:36.039 you think of magic and semiotic terms. So there's definitely 1251 01:09:36.079 --> 01:09:41.720 a bit of like McLuhan influences coming at me from 1252 01:09:41.760 --> 01:09:45.960 different like different angles, both directly and indirectly, which is 1253 01:09:46.000 --> 01:09:48.319 which is kind of interesting right now. I've also been 1254 01:09:48.920 --> 01:09:50.720 I can't remember we were recording when we started this 1255 01:09:50.840 --> 01:09:53.760 or not, someone mentioned, uh, I think it was Nick 1256 01:09:53.800 --> 01:09:57.399 actually mentioned me being on the Hermitics podcast. One of 1257 01:09:57.439 --> 01:10:01.039 the frequent guests on the Hermetics podcast the last several 1258 01:10:01.119 --> 01:10:03.359 years has been a guy named Bob Dobbs. Not the 1259 01:10:03.399 --> 01:10:06.560 SubGenius guy, although the name that's funny coincidence in the name, 1260 01:10:07.520 --> 01:10:12.880 but Dobbs was uh, basically a close associate of McLuhan. 1261 01:10:13.439 --> 01:10:16.720 Dobbs is in his eighties at this point, but has 1262 01:10:16.720 --> 01:10:19.560 fantastic stories to tell about mccluan, but also has a 1263 01:10:19.680 --> 01:10:23.000 very deep, deep, deep understanding of mccluan's work, and it's 1264 01:10:23.000 --> 01:10:26.359 probably one of the more even though he brings himself 1265 01:10:26.399 --> 01:10:28.600 as a renegade mcclulan scholar, he's probably one of the 1266 01:10:28.640 --> 01:10:31.640 more astute people on the scene now talking about McLuhan's work. 1267 01:10:31.840 --> 01:10:35.520 Definitely somebody worth looking into, just as it was side, Well, 1268 01:10:36.119 --> 01:10:37.279 that's where you want to go to any of that, 1269 01:10:37.319 --> 01:10:38.880 But that's that's kind of my that's kind of my 1270 01:10:39.880 --> 01:10:41.680 might wind me up on McClue and let me go 1271 01:10:41.720 --> 01:10:42.800 for a little bit idea. 1272 01:10:43.039 --> 01:10:46.319 No, that was that was amazing, and Toby, thank you 1273 01:10:46.359 --> 01:10:47.800 so much for that. I just want to say that 1274 01:10:47.840 --> 01:10:50.000 I don't just talk to myself, but I did study 1275 01:10:50.039 --> 01:10:54.119 under myself the Nazy so I'm I'm quite familiar with 1276 01:10:54.239 --> 01:10:56.800 Mark like McLuhan's work and his like sort of looks 1277 01:10:56.800 --> 01:11:00.600 and media studies perspective and and bobbed up was obviously 1278 01:11:00.640 --> 01:11:04.399 I've actually seen him live. I believe that the oh great, 1279 01:11:05.039 --> 01:11:09.000 so yeah, so it's definitely something that like when I 1280 01:11:09.000 --> 01:11:13.960 I remember being an undergrad undergrad and he sorry about that, 1281 01:11:14.119 --> 01:11:18.560 and he said, this is like semiotics is magic. I 1282 01:11:18.600 --> 01:11:20.840 remember being in an introductory class and we opened our 1283 01:11:20.840 --> 01:11:22.880 textbooks and he said, yeah, semiotics and magic, like what 1284 01:11:22.960 --> 01:11:23.479 is your name? 1285 01:11:24.159 --> 01:11:27.079 Well, well they both work. They both work in a 1286 01:11:27.199 --> 01:11:30.920 similar way. You know, the differences are subtle, but they 1287 01:11:30.920 --> 01:11:32.439 are there. But they both wear a very similar way. 1288 01:11:32.560 --> 01:11:35.680 Is that both semiotics and magic are not designed to 1289 01:11:35.800 --> 01:11:39.279 compel something to happen in a certain way. If if 1290 01:11:39.319 --> 01:11:41.199 I want to turn on if I want to turn 1291 01:11:41.239 --> 01:11:43.880 on the light, the most straightful way to turn it 1292 01:11:43.880 --> 01:11:45.239 on is to get out of my chair and go 1293 01:11:45.239 --> 01:11:47.479 turn on the damn light. I don't need magic to 1294 01:11:47.479 --> 01:11:49.640 go turn the light on or magic to help me 1295 01:11:49.640 --> 01:11:50.920 out of the chair so that I can make it 1296 01:11:50.960 --> 01:11:51.640 across the room. 1297 01:11:51.960 --> 01:11:52.119 Right. 1298 01:11:53.520 --> 01:11:56.199 So there there are things that things that can be 1299 01:11:56.239 --> 01:11:58.880 controlled through strict cause and effect. Go deal with their 1300 01:11:58.880 --> 01:12:01.119 group cause and effect. Don't waste magic time doing that 1301 01:12:01.159 --> 01:12:05.079 kind of stuff. But semiotics and magic both work by 1302 01:12:05.520 --> 01:12:09.000 tilting the balance towards certain things happening. Like in semiotics, 1303 01:12:09.239 --> 01:12:13.119 you're you're you're conveying a certain network of signs that 1304 01:12:13.279 --> 01:12:16.039 contain your intent, and you may have one or more 1305 01:12:16.079 --> 01:12:18.680 signs that are very salient within that web, that are 1306 01:12:18.760 --> 01:12:21.159 kind of like the dominant ones within that that are like, hey, 1307 01:12:21.199 --> 01:12:25.680 pay attention to me, those kind of signs. But you 1308 01:12:25.720 --> 01:12:27.560 can't make anybody do anything with a sign. You can, 1309 01:12:27.600 --> 01:12:30.279 basically you can plant the idea that that they'll go 1310 01:12:30.319 --> 01:12:34.319 do this with a sign. But the more effectively you 1311 01:12:34.479 --> 01:12:36.720 do that, the more likely it is that you will 1312 01:12:36.800 --> 01:12:39.039 get the result that you're looking for by putting signs 1313 01:12:39.039 --> 01:12:42.960 out there. That's basically how magic works in a in 1314 01:12:42.960 --> 01:12:44.960 a b all sense as well, is that you're you're 1315 01:12:45.000 --> 01:12:48.319 working with cracks in reality that where reality is not 1316 01:12:48.399 --> 01:12:51.000 quite set and soone yet, because if it's too rigid, 1317 01:12:52.119 --> 01:12:53.840 you know then you don't need magic. You need a 1318 01:12:53.840 --> 01:12:57.760 slash hammer if it's if it's too loose, you got 1319 01:12:57.800 --> 01:12:59.720 to get it in a more stable configuration force if 1320 01:12:59.720 --> 01:13:02.119 you look for the places where things are almost but 1321 01:13:02.159 --> 01:13:05.039 not quite set the way they need to be, and 1322 01:13:05.079 --> 01:13:07.319 then you give that last bit bit of nudge and 1323 01:13:07.399 --> 01:13:10.479 let things work themselves into the configuration you desire them 1324 01:13:10.520 --> 01:13:14.199 to be. So yeah, so that that semiotics is magic, 1325 01:13:14.239 --> 01:13:17.159 I mean, they're basically there. And that's that's part of why, 1326 01:13:18.000 --> 01:13:19.359 you know, some of the reasons I wrote the book, 1327 01:13:19.399 --> 01:13:23.439 right I I the language is of magic. I joked 1328 01:13:23.439 --> 01:13:25.479 around before that it's it's depending which way you look 1329 01:13:25.520 --> 01:13:27.880 at it's either a book about semiotics disguised as a 1330 01:13:27.880 --> 01:13:30.239 book about magic, or it's a book about magic disguises 1331 01:13:30.239 --> 01:13:34.880 a book about semiotics. Because there there is that that 1332 01:13:35.039 --> 01:13:37.079 very kind of commonality in the in the way they work. 1333 01:13:37.399 --> 01:13:40.520 And that's also why it's also interesting people that work 1334 01:13:41.439 --> 01:13:47.960 directly with semiotics are tend, even in the academic world, 1335 01:13:47.960 --> 01:13:52.079 tend to be very open to new places to use 1336 01:13:52.119 --> 01:13:55.560 semiotics to understand how something fits together, how how it works. 1337 01:13:56.600 --> 01:14:01.319 And so studying magic as a similar process is something 1338 01:14:01.399 --> 01:14:03.960 that you know that people that don't even think of 1339 01:14:04.000 --> 01:14:07.640 those sorts of magicians, you know, like maybe like an academic, 1340 01:14:08.159 --> 01:14:11.279 you know, philosopher that works with semiotics, you know, still 1341 01:14:11.279 --> 01:14:13.039 finds that interesting as a way to apply it, as 1342 01:14:13.039 --> 01:14:14.479 a way to understand and a way to see that 1343 01:14:14.520 --> 01:14:17.600 there's a there's a commonality in and and how things work. 1344 01:14:19.680 --> 01:14:22.399 Would you you have some very cool stuff in your background. 1345 01:14:22.439 --> 01:14:24.640 Want I want to hear more? You should maybe an 1346 01:14:24.640 --> 01:14:25.560 email talk about that. 1347 01:14:26.000 --> 01:14:27.239 Yeah, I love that, Thank you job. 1348 01:14:28.760 --> 01:14:32.680 So would you say that is is there any equation 1349 01:14:34.039 --> 01:14:41.319 where each element is necessary to create a specific let's 1350 01:14:41.319 --> 01:14:44.920 call it a magic spell for a specific intention or purpose? 1351 01:14:45.439 --> 01:14:48.239 Is there a code? Is there something that can be followed? 1352 01:14:48.319 --> 01:14:50.439 Or there are so many variants that you have to 1353 01:14:50.600 --> 01:14:54.399 try endlessly until you finally find something that works. 1354 01:14:55.880 --> 01:14:58.159 Well. I think it's endless variants, But I think it 1355 01:14:58.520 --> 01:15:03.680 is the more, the more you do with magic, the 1356 01:15:03.680 --> 01:15:07.239 more you'll find what works best for you. Don Webb 1357 01:15:07.279 --> 01:15:10.079 talks with us quite a bit actually in his in 1358 01:15:10.119 --> 01:15:12.199 his book How to Become a Modern Magus, which is 1359 01:15:12.239 --> 01:15:16.239 I think it's his latest book on magic. The idea 1360 01:15:16.439 --> 01:15:23.399 that you want to you want to have as rich 1361 01:15:23.439 --> 01:15:28.880 of a tool kit as you can build, but you know, 1362 01:15:28.960 --> 01:15:31.960 the you have you have to get used to how 1363 01:15:32.039 --> 01:15:35.239 the tools work for you, because like the same tools 1364 01:15:35.239 --> 01:15:37.560 may work differently for you than than they do for me. 1365 01:15:38.239 --> 01:15:40.600 You know, is they have may have we have certain talents, 1366 01:15:40.720 --> 01:15:43.039 we have certain ways of thinking about things, may certain 1367 01:15:43.079 --> 01:15:45.600 ways of relating to the world, you know, certain ways 1368 01:15:45.600 --> 01:15:49.680 that we that we communicate, communicate our intent, et cetera. 1369 01:15:49.720 --> 01:15:52.600 So like it's always gonna be very individual. But I 1370 01:15:52.600 --> 01:15:56.880 think for individual person, yeah, you can. I don't think 1371 01:15:56.880 --> 01:15:59.880 you never get to the point that you have, you know, 1372 01:16:00.119 --> 01:16:02.439 bucket of guaranteed success and you just pull out those 1373 01:16:02.479 --> 01:16:05.399 things that's all you need. But you have the like, look, 1374 01:16:05.600 --> 01:16:08.680 this this thing works for me most of the time. 1375 01:16:09.039 --> 01:16:11.000 This is what I'm gonna do. Uh, this is I'm 1376 01:16:11.039 --> 01:16:13.239 gonna start from here and then I'm gonna like add 1377 01:16:13.279 --> 01:16:15.840 on other stuff depending on what exactly the current moment, 1378 01:16:16.279 --> 01:16:18.159 current moment needs. And I think as you do that, 1379 01:16:18.199 --> 01:16:21.319 over time, you'll find you'll find you'll build up It's like, okay, 1380 01:16:21.359 --> 01:16:24.479 these are these are my go tos. But that's but 1381 01:16:24.520 --> 01:16:28.159 that can also be its own trap, right because just 1382 01:16:28.159 --> 01:16:30.640 just like with with with words, you used to speaking 1383 01:16:30.680 --> 01:16:33.079 in a certain way. You know, a certain language. Well, 1384 01:16:33.119 --> 01:16:36.680 that's going to constrain in some ways. Not a rigid constraint, 1385 01:16:36.680 --> 01:16:39.119 but just it's going to predispose you towards thinking in 1386 01:16:39.159 --> 01:16:41.920 certain ways because this is how you normally the words 1387 01:16:41.960 --> 01:16:44.920 you normally used to describe something, et cetera. So we 1388 01:16:44.960 --> 01:16:47.600 have always have to be careful in magic not to 1389 01:16:47.680 --> 01:16:50.520 go but I always do this and always works. Well, 1390 01:16:50.680 --> 01:16:53.439 maybe this is the time you need to do something different, right, 1391 01:16:54.199 --> 01:16:56.680 But yes, I think it's over time you'll build up, 1392 01:16:56.760 --> 01:16:58.520 you build up that idea that you have. Okay, look, 1393 01:16:58.560 --> 01:17:00.359 these are the things that I go to, are things 1394 01:17:00.399 --> 01:17:02.920 that tend to work for me. These are things that 1395 01:17:03.720 --> 01:17:05.840 if it doesn't work in a particular situation, I know 1396 01:17:05.920 --> 01:17:09.279 this tool well enough, this particular technique or whatever well 1397 01:17:09.399 --> 01:17:12.439 enough that I that I can I can modify it 1398 01:17:12.439 --> 01:17:15.439 in the moment to work in a slightly different way, 1399 01:17:15.840 --> 01:17:18.479 et cetera. But yeah, you don't want to get so 1400 01:17:18.840 --> 01:17:21.199 caught up on the But but if I don't do 1401 01:17:21.239 --> 01:17:24.319 it this way, it's not going to work. That it 1402 01:17:24.399 --> 01:17:28.439 becomes so rigid in your approach to magic that you're 1403 01:17:28.479 --> 01:17:32.039 missing out in other ways of approaching problems. Think of 1404 01:17:32.079 --> 01:17:35.720 magic as like a type of apply problem solving. So 1405 01:17:36.199 --> 01:17:37.479 I just answer the. 1406 01:17:37.600 --> 01:17:42.960 Question that because being rather ignorant in this, I tend 1407 01:17:42.960 --> 01:17:47.880 to look at what is normally understood as a spell, right, 1408 01:17:48.359 --> 01:17:53.079 And most of the spells have for most people nonsensical 1409 01:17:53.640 --> 01:17:59.760 sequence of words, right, or even nonsensical use of groups 1410 01:17:59.800 --> 01:18:03.159 of of letters that convey words that are not known 1411 01:18:03.600 --> 01:18:07.159 in any language. So I was wondering if there was 1412 01:18:07.399 --> 01:18:12.000 some kind of method where you use specific tones according 1413 01:18:12.000 --> 01:18:15.439 to your own way of expressing, to your own frequency, 1414 01:18:15.920 --> 01:18:19.840 and then seek a way to finally obtain something that 1415 01:18:19.960 --> 01:18:23.960 works from that. So if you go to ancient texts, 1416 01:18:23.960 --> 01:18:28.239 you find the witch's spells that are using words in 1417 01:18:28.279 --> 01:18:31.199 sequences that make no sense, and people would say it's 1418 01:18:31.199 --> 01:18:33.920 a wait, it's a witch because the way she's speaking 1419 01:18:34.840 --> 01:18:38.840 conveys a different meaning to the language itself, right, or 1420 01:18:38.880 --> 01:18:41.520 the way that is expressed. So I was just trying 1421 01:18:41.520 --> 01:18:45.600 to figure out if there was a basic, very basic 1422 01:18:45.840 --> 01:18:49.680 method where you build upon that to create what you 1423 01:18:50.600 --> 01:18:53.479 want to do. So that's basically what I was trying 1424 01:18:53.479 --> 01:18:56.079 to get to. I'm sorry if it's confusing. 1425 01:18:57.960 --> 01:18:58.239 Question. 1426 01:18:58.319 --> 01:18:59.680 I was going to ask next, but go ahead. 1427 01:18:59.680 --> 01:19:03.319 Sorry, Sorry, Now I just just will briefly on that point. 1428 01:19:04.640 --> 01:19:11.319 Some of that is where that starts. I can't tell 1429 01:19:11.319 --> 01:19:12.960 you how it is, because that's that's where you have 1430 01:19:13.000 --> 01:19:17.680 to figure out exactly. But where it starts is is 1431 01:19:17.800 --> 01:19:20.199 finding those pieces that resonate with you, the thing that 1432 01:19:20.319 --> 01:19:22.920 calls to you, the thing that just feels feels right. 1433 01:19:23.840 --> 01:19:27.119 And then as you start to work with those things. 1434 01:19:28.239 --> 01:19:31.159 This is why keeping a medical diary is absolutely critical 1435 01:19:31.199 --> 01:19:36.800 for anyone considers themselves a magician. Is that you have 1436 01:19:36.880 --> 01:19:38.920 to be able. You have to be able to honestly 1437 01:19:38.960 --> 01:19:44.000 assess how how did it go right? And so that's 1438 01:19:44.000 --> 01:19:46.279 where that's where you can you can catch yourself with 1439 01:19:46.279 --> 01:19:48.800 the tendency of the man. I've been clinging to that 1440 01:19:48.840 --> 01:19:50.399 tool because I like that tool. Maybe it was the 1441 01:19:50.399 --> 01:19:52.119 first one I used, but like it's just not working 1442 01:19:52.159 --> 01:19:55.000 anymore because you've got the diary and you can see it. 1443 01:19:55.000 --> 01:19:57.680 It's like, oh, yeah, well did it The last five 1444 01:19:57.720 --> 01:20:00.039 times I did that, I got I got jack for 1445 01:20:00.119 --> 01:20:02.039 what I was trying to do. Maybe I need to 1446 01:20:02.039 --> 01:20:05.159 look at a different tool. Right. See, there's that constant 1447 01:20:05.199 --> 01:20:09.479 self reflective thing. Because like with the Greek magical papyrie, 1448 01:20:09.640 --> 01:20:11.560 I keep going back to that because but it's a 1449 01:20:11.680 --> 01:20:13.960 it's a good example for a lot of the things 1450 01:20:14.000 --> 01:20:17.840 that I center magic around. You know, that's not a coherent, 1451 01:20:17.880 --> 01:20:20.520 a single coherent body of work. It's it's a bunch 1452 01:20:20.560 --> 01:20:23.239 of documents over four or five centuries to been on 1453 01:20:23.479 --> 01:20:27.720 when you when you where you draw the lines. And 1454 01:20:31.359 --> 01:20:34.319 but the reason they're kind of grouped together as magical 1455 01:20:34.359 --> 01:20:37.439 papyrie is because there's there's some some commonalities and the 1456 01:20:37.479 --> 01:20:40.399 techniques and the approaches and the words that they use 1457 01:20:40.680 --> 01:20:44.760 and and things like that. But it was very experimental. 1458 01:20:45.079 --> 01:20:48.840 They were probably they were probably passed around in the 1459 01:20:48.880 --> 01:20:51.560 same way that like the the gould Biker the books 1460 01:20:51.560 --> 01:20:54.920 of magic passed around like an early modern Iceland, the 1461 01:20:55.000 --> 01:20:57.640 idea that if you knew somebody that again that they 1462 01:20:57.680 --> 01:20:59.359 do this kind of work as well, and you go, well, 1463 01:20:59.399 --> 01:21:01.239 do you have any bellows that do the kind of stuff? 1464 01:21:01.279 --> 01:21:03.520 What's what's worked for you? And you borrow it and 1465 01:21:03.520 --> 01:21:05.479 you make your own copy of it, and then now 1466 01:21:05.479 --> 01:21:07.800 it becomes part of your toolkit. And then but then 1467 01:21:07.880 --> 01:21:11.199 like you decide, you know, maybe maybe you know, you 1468 01:21:11.239 --> 01:21:13.960 try it for yourself and do anything, throw it out, 1469 01:21:14.119 --> 01:21:15.359 or maybe you do and it's like, you know, what I 1470 01:21:15.359 --> 01:21:17.000 think it needs this and you try it again, the 1471 01:21:17.119 --> 01:21:20.439 experiment with it so like it already. Even if you're 1472 01:21:20.479 --> 01:21:22.960 taking it from something that somebody else did as a 1473 01:21:22.960 --> 01:21:26.279 starting point, it starts to become more personalized to you 1474 01:21:26.359 --> 01:21:27.920 as you work with it and you decide, well, what's 1475 01:21:27.960 --> 01:21:32.760 really working for me over time? And yeah, I'm a 1476 01:21:32.760 --> 01:21:34.720 big believer in that idea of that you don't be 1477 01:21:34.760 --> 01:21:38.359 afraid to pull from different traditions, different schools, different approaches 1478 01:21:38.359 --> 01:21:40.479 from what you're used to, because you never know what 1479 01:21:40.479 --> 01:21:42.239 you're gonna need any any more time. You ever know 1480 01:21:42.279 --> 01:21:45.039 what's going to become like, oh that's my go to technique. Now, 1481 01:21:45.239 --> 01:21:47.479 I'm I'm gonna run with that one for a while 1482 01:21:47.520 --> 01:21:48.720 until it stops working for me. 1483 01:21:48.920 --> 01:21:50.880 Yeah, you cannot choose the same key to if you 1484 01:21:51.199 --> 01:21:54.039 open different doors, right basically right, right, But you. 1485 01:21:54.000 --> 01:21:56.880 Have to be able to look back and and honestly assess, 1486 01:21:57.399 --> 01:21:59.600 you know, do I keep using this because it works? 1487 01:21:59.600 --> 01:22:03.479 I keep us in this because I like it? Right? Yeah, 1488 01:22:03.600 --> 01:22:05.760 that's where that's where you have to have that kind 1489 01:22:05.760 --> 01:22:08.039 of brutal self reflection as a magician, and the magical 1490 01:22:08.079 --> 01:22:09.479 diary critical and. 1491 01:22:09.439 --> 01:22:12.479 The universe is in constant motion. So what worked before, 1492 01:22:13.039 --> 01:22:15.600 things are not as they were before, So you need 1493 01:22:15.600 --> 01:22:18.359 you need to adapt that key to to the movement 1494 01:22:18.439 --> 01:22:21.640 of the cosmos, of the of the spheres or uh 1495 01:22:21.920 --> 01:22:23.439 as as they as they move along. 1496 01:22:23.640 --> 01:22:26.439 Yea, thank you. So well, let's very quickly on that, 1497 01:22:26.520 --> 01:22:31.119 and I promise I'll get to your question, Lisa. Well, sorry, Lisa, sorry, 1498 01:22:32.199 --> 01:22:38.319 so my it's absolutely critical. Uh piece of Egyptian spell work. 1499 01:22:39.039 --> 01:22:41.279 That's you we use with the within the Temple of 1500 01:22:41.319 --> 01:22:43.439 Set and it's and I think it's useful beyond that 1501 01:22:43.479 --> 01:22:47.079 as well. That's from uh propyrus called the Bremner Ryan Papyrus, 1502 01:22:47.079 --> 01:22:52.439 and it's a part of a prevention spell. This the 1503 01:22:52.680 --> 01:22:57.680 kef rak kefer kefel re formula. There's demeral ways to 1504 01:22:57.680 --> 01:22:59.960 translate it. The translation that don Web uses and use, 1505 01:23:00.039 --> 01:23:02.439 the one that I stick with or similar is that 1506 01:23:03.359 --> 01:23:07.239 so kefer rah kefer keferu, so I have come into being, 1507 01:23:07.520 --> 01:23:10.319 and through the process of coming into being, the process 1508 01:23:10.359 --> 01:23:13.119 of coming into being has been established. That's a bit 1509 01:23:13.119 --> 01:23:15.079 of a mouthful. And you notice how I have to 1510 01:23:15.159 --> 01:23:17.119 use a long string of stuff in English to do 1511 01:23:17.239 --> 01:23:21.239 what was like three three short words an Egyptian. But 1512 01:23:22.079 --> 01:23:23.840 the gist of what that is, and the reason that's 1513 01:23:23.920 --> 01:23:28.159 so important is what what I brought into being, The 1514 01:23:28.439 --> 01:23:30.359 way that I brought something into being this time, the 1515 01:23:30.399 --> 01:23:33.359 way that I created being out of nothingness, the way 1516 01:23:33.399 --> 01:23:36.960 that I carved out from from the you know, the 1517 01:23:37.039 --> 01:23:41.159 unknown vastness of being. For this particular manifestation of being 1518 01:23:42.479 --> 01:23:44.399 is never going to work exactly the same the next time. 1519 01:23:45.159 --> 01:23:47.039 It's gonna be similar. I can build on it, I 1520 01:23:47.079 --> 01:23:51.439 can take it as a starting point. But I've established 1521 01:23:51.479 --> 01:23:53.720 this way of coming into being, But then the next 1522 01:23:53.720 --> 01:23:55.239 time I may have to establish a new way to 1523 01:23:55.279 --> 01:23:59.279 come into being. And that's there's lots of different directions 1524 01:23:59.319 --> 01:24:03.199 that goes off into extraordinary useful and initiation as well 1525 01:24:03.199 --> 01:24:08.359 as in magic. But relevant to your part of what 1526 01:24:08.359 --> 01:24:10.520 you're talking about there is the idea that you have 1527 01:24:10.960 --> 01:24:14.199 you have to be constantly reinventing yourself. That doesn't mean 1528 01:24:14.239 --> 01:24:17.920 starting from scratch every time. It just means being on 1529 01:24:17.960 --> 01:24:20.640 the lookout for what needs to be tweaked for this 1530 01:24:20.680 --> 01:24:25.600 particular instance, this particular context, this particular situation too. To 1531 01:24:25.640 --> 01:24:28.720 do what's called for here and not just to do 1532 01:24:28.760 --> 01:24:30.399 it this way because well I did it the way 1533 01:24:30.399 --> 01:24:33.920 two weeks ago, so that that kind of reinvent a 1534 01:24:34.000 --> 01:24:38.239 process is extraordinarily important, and in order to effectively reinvent, 1535 01:24:38.279 --> 01:24:40.319 you have to be able to to honestly know what 1536 01:24:40.640 --> 01:24:42.920 you've been doing and what happened and what hasn't been 1537 01:24:42.920 --> 01:24:44.079 working as well. 1538 01:24:44.760 --> 01:24:47.479 Like you others says always in motion the future. 1539 01:24:47.279 --> 01:24:50.239 Is so yeah, you need to be aware of that. 1540 01:24:50.960 --> 01:24:54.560 Oh yeah, go ahead at least. 1541 01:24:55.239 --> 01:24:59.000 To build upon what you were saying. And I am 1542 01:24:59.399 --> 01:25:03.359 also very new to this. I'm here to learn what. 1543 01:25:03.279 --> 01:25:04.079 You were talking about. 1544 01:25:04.279 --> 01:25:11.079 The type infernal geometry was one of the spins. And 1545 01:25:11.119 --> 01:25:15.640 then with the talk of isosophy, which Nick and I 1546 01:25:15.680 --> 01:25:19.520 had done episode about it, and in it we talked 1547 01:25:19.520 --> 01:25:24.199 about magic squares, and so you had Fagris and so 1548 01:25:24.279 --> 01:25:27.880 that reminded me of his magic squares. You know the 1549 01:25:28.079 --> 01:25:30.600 three by three which you get a nine, and when 1550 01:25:30.600 --> 01:25:34.520 you add say the name of an archangel, right, and 1551 01:25:34.560 --> 01:25:38.479 you add in the number of numerical value for each letter, 1552 01:25:38.840 --> 01:25:42.359 you get a sigil. Is that correct? 1553 01:25:43.359 --> 01:25:48.359 And so when you look at that, when you look 1554 01:25:48.399 --> 01:25:52.760 at how numbers represent a letter. 1555 01:25:52.840 --> 01:25:57.319 And they give rise to geometry. Is that kind of 1556 01:25:57.319 --> 01:26:04.720 the concept with I guess magic insiduals and the power 1557 01:26:04.760 --> 01:26:08.439 of a word in a sense. 1558 01:26:09.199 --> 01:26:11.680 Yeah, well it's it's one way with working working with 1559 01:26:11.720 --> 01:26:14.680 them because you have to find you have to find 1560 01:26:14.760 --> 01:26:19.199 meaning in different ways. We were talking earlier about mathematics 1561 01:26:19.319 --> 01:26:25.520 as geometry, mathematics as music, mathematics as astronomy, but that 1562 01:26:25.520 --> 01:26:28.039 that underpinning all of them. So like you're you're kind 1563 01:26:28.039 --> 01:26:31.680 of each one tells you something different about the thing 1564 01:26:31.720 --> 01:26:34.640 that you're looking at. So like no, no one of 1565 01:26:34.640 --> 01:26:37.680 them by itself is the thing itself. Each one is 1566 01:26:37.720 --> 01:26:41.840 like it's like a facet of the thing itself. I'm 1567 01:26:41.880 --> 01:26:45.920 a big believer of using tools. What you look at 1568 01:26:46.039 --> 01:26:51.720 things in a variety of different ways, you know, well 1569 01:26:51.880 --> 01:26:54.880 literally you know, looking for it from different angles, right, 1570 01:26:55.159 --> 01:26:57.359 so that you can see the entirety. You can see 1571 01:26:57.399 --> 01:27:00.359 the entirety of the thing. Because on one of the 1572 01:27:00.439 --> 01:27:04.119 things that that's interesting about human interesting is not unique 1573 01:27:04.119 --> 01:27:06.840 to humans, But one thing that is interesting to say 1574 01:27:06.840 --> 01:27:10.920 all living things is that there their sense processes are 1575 01:27:10.920 --> 01:27:13.720 always limited in some way. In humans, for example, we 1576 01:27:13.840 --> 01:27:16.960 can only see a visible light within a certain range. 1577 01:27:17.520 --> 01:27:20.479 We can only hear within within the twenty hurts to 1578 01:27:20.840 --> 01:27:27.760 twenty killer hurts range, et cetera. So there's any sense 1579 01:27:27.840 --> 01:27:31.600 that we apply to interacting with the world is already 1580 01:27:31.640 --> 01:27:35.800 already limited in some way. That's the same thing with language. 1581 01:27:36.119 --> 01:27:38.239 We were talking earlier about the you know, the wide 1582 01:27:38.279 --> 01:27:40.960 variety of sounds in humans create versus the number of 1583 01:27:41.000 --> 01:27:43.399 sounds that are used in any particular language. You know, 1584 01:27:43.399 --> 01:27:46.880 So there's already some limitation there. But there's even limitations 1585 01:27:46.960 --> 01:27:50.640 in meaning, you know, limitations in words. Once I once 1586 01:27:50.680 --> 01:27:54.119 I describe if I have like some crazy experience, some 1587 01:27:54.159 --> 01:27:57.439 profound experience that I had, once I describe it in words, 1588 01:27:57.520 --> 01:28:00.439 I've cut off part of the experience. Maybe I can 1589 01:28:00.439 --> 01:28:01.920 still think of it because I still know what it 1590 01:28:01.960 --> 01:28:03.760 felt like. I mean, I can visualize something that I 1591 01:28:03.760 --> 01:28:09.720 can't describe. But if I'm describing it to you, there's 1592 01:28:09.720 --> 01:28:11.560 always a limit to what you can understand about my 1593 01:28:11.560 --> 01:28:13.199 experience because it was not your experience. It was it 1594 01:28:13.239 --> 01:28:16.119 was my experience. Now you can you can maybe get 1595 01:28:16.520 --> 01:28:19.039 a very good sense of that if you've had a 1596 01:28:19.119 --> 01:28:22.520 similar experience. And because of the words that I use 1597 01:28:22.600 --> 01:28:26.439 to describe it, it maps onto your experience in a 1598 01:28:26.479 --> 01:28:28.560 way that lets you kind of get a deeper sense 1599 01:28:28.560 --> 01:28:31.880 of what I'm talking about beyond just the words. Right, 1600 01:28:32.199 --> 01:28:34.800 But it's still limited, still limited in some way. And 1601 01:28:34.840 --> 01:28:37.359 so that's that's why I find like, like tool, what 1602 01:28:37.399 --> 01:28:40.920 you're describing, it's very handy to have tools that let 1603 01:28:40.960 --> 01:28:46.159 you hit see those different perspectives on on things to 1604 01:28:46.279 --> 01:28:51.439 get to what is the entirety of a thing instead 1605 01:28:51.439 --> 01:28:56.039 of mistaking just this one way of looking at it 1606 01:28:56.079 --> 01:29:02.359 for being the entirety of the thing. Does that make sense? Yeah, 1607 01:29:02.399 --> 01:29:05.000 I've not worked extensively with with what you're talking what 1608 01:29:05.000 --> 01:29:07.960 you're talking about, although I work with sigils quite a bit, 1609 01:29:07.960 --> 01:29:09.960 but usually more of the kind of the word method 1610 01:29:10.000 --> 01:29:16.720 type schigils from Austin Osmond Spare but but that, but 1611 01:29:16.800 --> 01:29:19.600 they work broadly in a similar similar way the idea 1612 01:29:19.640 --> 01:29:23.359 that you have. You have some particular concept, some idea, 1613 01:29:23.600 --> 01:29:27.279 some principle that you're trying to convey, but you're you're 1614 01:29:27.319 --> 01:29:29.319 working with some sort of a system to let you 1615 01:29:29.399 --> 01:29:31.640 carve out part of it in order to represent the whole. 1616 01:29:33.399 --> 01:29:34.920 I talk a bit about that a little bit in 1617 01:29:34.920 --> 01:29:37.279 the language as a magic. That's a linguistic thing called 1618 01:29:37.399 --> 01:29:41.399 metonomy where you use like part of something too or 1619 01:29:41.439 --> 01:29:44.520 something closely associated with something to represent the entire thing. 1620 01:29:44.920 --> 01:29:46.880 Like for example, we talk about we refer to like 1621 01:29:46.960 --> 01:29:49.760 journalists as the press, even though no one uses a 1622 01:29:49.760 --> 01:29:54.439 printing press anymore, right, you know, use the thing associated 1623 01:29:54.439 --> 01:29:56.840 with them kind of stands for the whole thing, but 1624 01:29:56.880 --> 01:30:01.760 it's not the entirety of that thing, you know. But 1625 01:30:01.800 --> 01:30:05.760 that's when we work with magic. We're looking very often 1626 01:30:05.800 --> 01:30:09.199 we're working in a very metaphorical analogical type of way 1627 01:30:09.600 --> 01:30:16.359 where we're kind of where we're conceiving of something as 1628 01:30:16.399 --> 01:30:19.760 part of our magic in a certain way that is 1629 01:30:20.359 --> 01:30:22.760 that has a relationship with what we're trying to bring about, 1630 01:30:24.279 --> 01:30:27.399 but they're not the same that we're there we're looking 1631 01:30:27.439 --> 01:30:33.239 at trying to think out up with us. We're looking 1632 01:30:33.279 --> 01:30:35.720 at some part of what we're trying to create through magic, 1633 01:30:36.159 --> 01:30:38.159 and we're focusing on that. That's where I'm going to 1634 01:30:38.199 --> 01:30:40.159 direct my magic into that little bit right there, and 1635 01:30:40.239 --> 01:30:44.079 it's going to you know, affect the rest of the 1636 01:30:44.119 --> 01:30:48.359 concept that I'm trying to create, if that makes any sense. 1637 01:30:49.000 --> 01:30:51.239 But yeah, that's why I'm a big, a big believer 1638 01:30:51.319 --> 01:30:53.359 in those type of tools, just because you need need 1639 01:30:53.399 --> 01:30:56.159 to have you need to have different perspectives on the 1640 01:30:56.159 --> 01:30:58.000 thing you're trying to understand or the thing that you're 1641 01:30:58.039 --> 01:31:00.279 trying to create so that you can find what is 1642 01:31:00.319 --> 01:31:02.680 the most effective. It's like, ah, that's where I'm going 1643 01:31:02.720 --> 01:31:03.479 to get it right there. 1644 01:31:04.319 --> 01:31:07.199 Have you ever used Burrows's cut up method? 1645 01:31:07.760 --> 01:31:10.880 Oh? Yes, yeah, I'm a big, big fan of of 1646 01:31:10.880 --> 01:31:14.720 burrows is working in general. You know, actually talking about 1647 01:31:14.760 --> 01:31:17.800 languages being a virus a bit in the languages of magic. 1648 01:31:18.760 --> 01:31:21.279 But yeah, that that's that was the technique that was 1649 01:31:21.680 --> 01:31:24.159 adopted very own early on by the Chaos magic folks. 1650 01:31:25.720 --> 01:31:29.479 I was talking with my friend Dave Lee recently. One 1651 01:31:29.520 --> 01:31:31.720 of the the og Chas magic guys was like right 1652 01:31:31.720 --> 01:31:34.199 there at the beginning with Carol and Sherwin and et cetera. 1653 01:31:35.359 --> 01:31:38.680 And that was one of the that was one of 1654 01:31:38.720 --> 01:31:40.760 those early things that they they kind of brought in 1655 01:31:40.840 --> 01:31:43.079 that was like not magic in the conventional sense, but 1656 01:31:43.119 --> 01:31:45.960 they realized, wait, this is magic. Why are we not 1657 01:31:46.039 --> 01:31:47.680 using this as part of the magical work that we do? 1658 01:31:49.920 --> 01:31:52.560 And I love with Burrows especially, I love that kind 1659 01:31:52.560 --> 01:31:57.239 of free form, kind of improvisitory like like go with 1660 01:31:57.239 --> 01:31:59.119 what's in the moment that you need kind of approach 1661 01:31:59.199 --> 01:32:02.760 to magic and Burrows I mean, for those who don't know, 1662 01:32:03.079 --> 01:32:04.920 I'm sure you're aware of this, but those who may 1663 01:32:04.960 --> 01:32:08.039 not know, Burrows considered himself a magician. He understood what 1664 01:32:08.039 --> 01:32:10.079 he was doing as magic, and in fact, later on 1665 01:32:10.239 --> 01:32:13.439 even joined joined up with the Luminus of Panataros, the 1666 01:32:13.640 --> 01:32:17.319 chast Magic organization, because he recognized, hey, you guys are 1667 01:32:17.640 --> 01:32:19.880 taking what I'm doing in a in a new direction. 1668 01:32:21.039 --> 01:32:23.199 But yeah, the cut up is a very a very 1669 01:32:23.199 --> 01:32:28.439 interesting method for those listening. You may not know. The 1670 01:32:28.479 --> 01:32:32.680 cutups have a wide variety of purposes, but it's it's 1671 01:32:32.720 --> 01:32:36.159 the idea that you tell a very kind of easy example. 1672 01:32:36.199 --> 01:32:38.600 If you take like a like a magazine, right, and 1673 01:32:38.600 --> 01:32:42.399 you cut out different pieces of different images, different pieces 1674 01:32:42.479 --> 01:32:45.760 of pages, and you reassemble them in new ways to 1675 01:32:45.800 --> 01:32:48.439 make something new out of it. You know that, whether 1676 01:32:48.479 --> 01:32:50.960 it's randomly or going by the aesthetics of what you're 1677 01:32:51.000 --> 01:32:56.199 trying to look at, et cetera. But it's it's not 1678 01:32:56.600 --> 01:33:00.479 at all dissimilar to you know, magical work of assembling 1679 01:33:00.520 --> 01:33:02.680 a reality. You're basically taking pieces of what's there to 1680 01:33:02.720 --> 01:33:05.680 work with, what's there as part of what's available for change, 1681 01:33:05.720 --> 01:33:09.119 and you're creating something new out of it. And sometimes 1682 01:33:09.159 --> 01:33:11.439 you can use this in like a like a divinatory way, 1683 01:33:11.520 --> 01:33:13.119 like if you if you take like that, like a 1684 01:33:13.119 --> 01:33:15.239 written page out of a magazine, cut it up, reassemble it, 1685 01:33:15.760 --> 01:33:17.720 read the words the way that arrange now and sometimes 1686 01:33:17.720 --> 01:33:21.119 you find, oh, that's that's a different way to arrange things. 1687 01:33:21.560 --> 01:33:23.960 You know, we've felt a lot about, you know, syntax 1688 01:33:24.000 --> 01:33:27.800 and rearranging words as part of this conversation, or maybe 1689 01:33:27.800 --> 01:33:31.239 it's more a visual thing. Yeah, there's it's a very 1690 01:33:31.319 --> 01:33:34.840 ripe kind of magical technique, whether it is like a 1691 01:33:34.880 --> 01:33:40.680 divinatory type purpose or as a you know, I'm going 1692 01:33:40.680 --> 01:33:43.960 to rearrange these things to create a new vision of 1693 01:33:44.199 --> 01:33:48.079 what I want to be. So so if if. 1694 01:33:48.520 --> 01:33:52.560 This makes sense to you, you spoke about schedules, and 1695 01:33:52.640 --> 01:33:56.199 I'm thinking about the influence that a written word can 1696 01:33:56.279 --> 01:33:59.000 have on a glass of water when you've frozen the 1697 01:33:59.039 --> 01:34:03.359 water after you left the word on top of the 1698 01:34:03.600 --> 01:34:07.239 on the bottom of the glass. So could a word 1699 01:34:08.640 --> 01:34:12.239 be a sigil in descent that is affecting the water 1700 01:34:12.520 --> 01:34:15.479 and it has no sounds, it's just a written word. 1701 01:34:16.199 --> 01:34:18.800 Does it become a sigil and that's why it affects 1702 01:34:18.800 --> 01:34:19.199 the water? 1703 01:34:20.760 --> 01:34:29.800 HM, think about that for a second. Well, you know, 1704 01:34:30.000 --> 01:34:32.039 one way to think of sigils, and this is common 1705 01:34:32.079 --> 01:34:36.000 whether it's once created from magic squares sort of the 1706 01:34:36.000 --> 01:34:40.640 old school Agrippa style signals, or if it's the word 1707 01:34:40.680 --> 01:34:44.359 method type sigils or other techniques. There's a method of 1708 01:34:44.359 --> 01:34:48.520 distillation you're taking. You're taking, you know, the the entirety 1709 01:34:48.560 --> 01:34:51.000 of the concept of the statement, whatever you're working with. 1710 01:34:51.359 --> 01:34:57.640 You're distilling it down to something that is that represents 1711 01:34:58.279 --> 01:35:01.000 you know, it's one small piece of it representing the 1712 01:35:01.119 --> 01:35:06.520 entirety in your specific example. I'm not sure, partially because 1713 01:35:06.760 --> 01:35:08.439 I've not worked with them in that way. 1714 01:35:09.039 --> 01:35:09.840 He's talking about. 1715 01:35:11.079 --> 01:35:13.640 He's talking about Beta Austin's work. If you ever get 1716 01:35:13.680 --> 01:35:16.119 a chance to get on Instagram and look at Beta Austin, 1717 01:35:16.199 --> 01:35:22.159 she puts pictures and words next to ice before she 1718 01:35:22.239 --> 01:35:26.119 puts it the freezer, and these images come through as freezing. 1719 01:35:26.720 --> 01:35:32.239 So there's a really weird conversation happening between water and symbols. 1720 01:35:32.800 --> 01:35:37.039 Yeah. For instance, if you put the word love beneath 1721 01:35:37.039 --> 01:35:40.399 a glass of water, and in the morning you freeze 1722 01:35:40.479 --> 01:35:44.039 the water right when you look at at the microscope, 1723 01:35:44.079 --> 01:35:50.359 the crystal will be beautiful, perfect, symmetric, magnificent. If you 1724 01:35:50.399 --> 01:35:53.359 write the word hate and you do the same process, 1725 01:35:53.479 --> 01:35:59.399 it will be chaotic, deorganized, and there is no intention 1726 01:35:59.680 --> 01:36:02.279 is just to words. So you were speaking, and I'm 1727 01:36:02.319 --> 01:36:07.079 thinking maybe words can become a seal if when they 1728 01:36:07.079 --> 01:36:09.439 are used in this in this way. So I'm sorry 1729 01:36:09.479 --> 01:36:12.600 this comes right from my lack of knowledge in this, 1730 01:36:12.920 --> 01:36:14.000 but I'm just trying to. 1731 01:36:15.000 --> 01:36:24.159 Of knowledge too. That's an interesting Yeah, I don't know. 1732 01:36:24.199 --> 01:36:25.960 I have experiment with that. That that's the idea. 1733 01:36:27.399 --> 01:36:30.439 I'm sorry, I'm just making weird, weird questions. 1734 01:36:30.960 --> 01:36:33.720 Sorry, no, I'm fine. If you guys want to say something, 1735 01:36:34.000 --> 01:36:36.319 play stump the guest too. That's always fun. 1736 01:36:36.760 --> 01:36:39.880 Toby get those little plastic petri dishes. 1737 01:36:40.279 --> 01:36:45.680 Well yeah, well the other thing, like probably noticed as 1738 01:36:45.680 --> 01:36:47.479 the last two things, like if I don't know something, 1739 01:36:47.520 --> 01:36:48.800 I'm not going to bullshit you about it. I'm not 1740 01:36:48.840 --> 01:36:50.800 going to make up stuff. I'll just telling you I 1741 01:36:50.840 --> 01:36:53.039 don't know or I haven't seen it before. I mean, 1742 01:36:53.039 --> 01:36:54.720 because I mean, I'm here to learn too, because like 1743 01:36:54.880 --> 01:36:58.159 I learned from the questions that y'all answer, y'all ask 1744 01:36:58.319 --> 01:37:01.880 and the audience asked, because it's you know, it's either 1745 01:37:02.239 --> 01:37:04.439 its ways I've not thought about this before, which is 1746 01:37:04.479 --> 01:37:08.640 always good to get. But it's also you know, like 1747 01:37:09.640 --> 01:37:12.680 magicians and techniques, so like, I'm not familiar with you know, 1748 01:37:12.720 --> 01:37:14.680 because maybe that becomes part of my tool get who knows? 1749 01:37:15.199 --> 01:37:17.800 So no, it's great, but yeah, I'm not like if 1750 01:37:17.800 --> 01:37:20.079 I don't know something, I'm not going to make it 1751 01:37:20.159 --> 01:37:20.479 up for you. 1752 01:37:20.640 --> 01:37:22.079 Sure I don't remember the name. 1753 01:37:23.439 --> 01:37:24.520 Ye, thank you. 1754 01:37:25.399 --> 01:37:28.600 In my case, I listened to this from a Japanese 1755 01:37:28.600 --> 01:37:32.239 fellow that I can't remember the name, but I think 1756 01:37:32.279 --> 01:37:33.960 he was the first much so mut. 1757 01:37:33.960 --> 01:37:34.880 Or something like that. 1758 01:37:34.920 --> 01:37:37.760 I can't remember the name, but he discovered this that 1759 01:37:37.840 --> 01:37:43.560 the simple word written with intention can affect matter, right, 1760 01:37:44.079 --> 01:37:47.680 and and that can be fine found by just freezing 1761 01:37:47.760 --> 01:37:50.239 and then looking at a piece of that ice into 1762 01:37:50.279 --> 01:37:54.279 the into a microscope. And they are completely different according 1763 01:37:54.319 --> 01:37:57.880 to what you write. And the two different results come 1764 01:37:57.920 --> 01:38:01.920 from these two simple words love like written not in 1765 01:38:01.920 --> 01:38:06.079 a specific intentional way like all capitals. You just write 1766 01:38:06.199 --> 01:38:09.680 the word love. But when you're writing, you're sinking about love, 1767 01:38:10.000 --> 01:38:12.920 and when you write about hate, you are sinking about hate. 1768 01:38:12.920 --> 01:38:15.520 And that affects the water. Although the water is not 1769 01:38:15.600 --> 01:38:18.199 connected to the process of creating the world itself, So 1770 01:38:18.640 --> 01:38:22.520 our thinking is by writing it with intention, you might 1771 01:38:22.600 --> 01:38:25.119 be creating a sigil if But I don't know what 1772 01:38:25.159 --> 01:38:28.359 a sigil is in any sense, so I'm just ignorant 1773 01:38:28.680 --> 01:38:31.600 in relate to this. But I just connected the two things, 1774 01:38:31.600 --> 01:38:33.399 and I was trying to see if there was something 1775 01:38:33.439 --> 01:38:33.800 to it. 1776 01:38:35.039 --> 01:38:36.600 I mean, I would say in a broad sense, that 1777 01:38:36.640 --> 01:38:38.920 would be a type of sigil, because it is you're 1778 01:38:39.479 --> 01:38:42.880 you're encoding something into it that is not going to 1779 01:38:43.079 --> 01:38:46.439 be It's one of things with sigils is that if 1780 01:38:46.479 --> 01:38:49.319 you do it right, and pretty much every technique working 1781 01:38:49.319 --> 01:38:51.600 with sigils will suggest this, if you're doing it right, 1782 01:38:51.640 --> 01:38:55.039 you can't take just the sigil and build a reverse 1783 01:38:55.079 --> 01:38:56.720 engineer to get back to what the original thing was. 1784 01:38:57.239 --> 01:39:00.439 It's meant to be a distillation where certainly fromation is 1785 01:39:00.520 --> 01:39:04.239 lost or or is encoded in a way that's beyond 1786 01:39:06.960 --> 01:39:14.960 you know, you know, rational understanding at that point. Yeah, 1787 01:39:14.960 --> 01:39:17.319 I mean normally in my own work, and this is 1788 01:39:17.800 --> 01:39:20.319 not exclusively like this for everybody, but in my own work, 1789 01:39:20.319 --> 01:39:23.800 I tend to use sigils when I'm trying to implant 1790 01:39:23.840 --> 01:39:28.640 something for myself, basically, to to put something deep beyond 1791 01:39:28.680 --> 01:39:31.000 just the rational mind, so that I can make sure 1792 01:39:31.039 --> 01:39:34.039 that I remember something or that I know something or 1793 01:39:34.079 --> 01:39:36.800 that or that I or that I think in a 1794 01:39:36.800 --> 01:39:42.159 certain way about something, et cetera. But you know, other 1795 01:39:42.199 --> 01:39:45.640 people tend to use sigils more for operative, outward facing things. 1796 01:39:46.039 --> 01:39:48.039 But that's just a quirk of my own, my own 1797 01:39:48.079 --> 01:39:51.960 practice and in preferences, not not that it has to 1798 01:39:51.960 --> 01:39:53.960 be that way or that excludes other ways I'm working 1799 01:39:53.960 --> 01:39:54.199 with it. 1800 01:39:54.840 --> 01:39:57.359 Sure, it's it's masaow and motto if you want to 1801 01:39:57.399 --> 01:39:59.920 look at it. I think it's the root masato and 1802 01:40:00.079 --> 01:40:01.880 it's the name of the fellow. 1803 01:40:02.000 --> 01:40:06.279 Yeah, I do. I don't want to ask you a question, Toby, 1804 01:40:06.279 --> 01:40:09.039 that's actually a little bit more specific to your book, 1805 01:40:10.399 --> 01:40:12.399 and I kind of like wanted to hear and I 1806 01:40:12.520 --> 01:40:14.359 do want to hear the answer, and I think it's 1807 01:40:14.359 --> 01:40:17.439 actually just interesting for the listeners. You do kind of 1808 01:40:17.760 --> 01:40:19.199 from what I got out of it in this in 1809 01:40:19.239 --> 01:40:25.720 your the first book, kind of contrast angular and circular magic. First, 1810 01:40:25.840 --> 01:40:27.319 it's kind of like a two part question if you 1811 01:40:27.319 --> 01:40:29.479 don't mind maybe giving as basic as you can of 1812 01:40:29.520 --> 01:40:31.600 an understanding of those two and then how do you 1813 01:40:31.720 --> 01:40:33.640 kind of pair them with left hand path and right 1814 01:40:33.640 --> 01:40:34.039 hand path. 1815 01:40:35.239 --> 01:40:40.520 Sure, so, this division between angular time and circular time, 1816 01:40:41.800 --> 01:40:45.920 it was sort of originally inspired by a work called 1817 01:40:45.960 --> 01:40:50.760 The Hounds of Tindalos by Frank Belknapp Belong he was 1818 01:40:51.640 --> 01:40:55.359 one of Lovecraft's many correspondents. A Long was actually like 1819 01:40:55.600 --> 01:40:58.039 a very young man at the time, like nineteen twenty nine, 1820 01:40:58.079 --> 01:41:00.720 I think was when the story was written, and so 1821 01:41:00.760 --> 01:41:04.039 he corresponded with a Lovecraft like took advice from him, 1822 01:41:04.039 --> 01:41:07.079 because the Lovecraft was very generous with advice for aspiring writers. 1823 01:41:07.760 --> 01:41:11.560 Fritz Liber Robert Block, people like that, other people that 1824 01:41:11.600 --> 01:41:15.840 were mentored by Lovecraft to a large extent. But anyway, 1825 01:41:15.920 --> 01:41:20.439 and in his in the story of the Hounds of Tandalos, 1826 01:41:21.199 --> 01:41:22.439 I don't want to give it away because it's a 1827 01:41:22.560 --> 01:41:26.800 very very cool and interesting story that's sort of written 1828 01:41:26.920 --> 01:41:32.119 within the Cathullo mythos, and Lovecraft later uses the hounds 1829 01:41:32.199 --> 01:41:36.439 as well. But there's this idea of introduced of curved 1830 01:41:36.560 --> 01:41:42.680 time and angular time. What curved time, curved circular is 1831 01:41:44.359 --> 01:41:49.159 the perspective of time from like in the objective sense, 1832 01:41:49.399 --> 01:41:51.079 you know, like we're going at the clock on the wall. 1833 01:41:51.319 --> 01:41:56.560 You know it's been thirty minutes since whatever. Now, as 1834 01:41:56.560 --> 01:41:59.439 we all know, magician or not, we know that the 1835 01:41:59.479 --> 01:42:02.560 subjection experience of time is different. You know, it could 1836 01:42:02.560 --> 01:42:04.720 have been that could have been a short thirty minutes, 1837 01:42:04.800 --> 01:42:05.920 or it could have been a long thirty minute to 1838 01:42:06.000 --> 01:42:09.039 been on what was happening right during that period of time. 1839 01:42:09.720 --> 01:42:16.880 And so what this becomes is that in angular time, 1840 01:42:17.079 --> 01:42:21.319 this is the time time is experienced by an individual 1841 01:42:21.640 --> 01:42:26.560 sendient being in their experience of time when it can stretch, 1842 01:42:26.640 --> 01:42:31.119 it can it can compress, et cetera. Things maybe happen 1843 01:42:31.199 --> 01:42:34.479 in different order, like you maybe have like some great 1844 01:42:34.479 --> 01:42:38.560 insight that that kind of circumvents like a long process 1845 01:42:38.560 --> 01:42:43.720 of reasoning, et cetera. Now, what this becomes as part 1846 01:42:43.800 --> 01:42:47.960 of I'm just gonna it's not gonna be helpful for 1847 01:42:47.960 --> 01:42:50.359 people just hearing this, but I'll give it my best. So, 1848 01:42:50.359 --> 01:42:54.399 so this image on the cover of Infernal Geometry, you 1849 01:42:54.439 --> 01:42:56.520 see you have the have a circle, then you have 1850 01:42:56.560 --> 01:43:00.640 a pentagram, then you have a trapezoid, and only the 1851 01:43:00.680 --> 01:43:05.720 trapezoid is connecting the pentagram and the circle. So the 1852 01:43:05.840 --> 01:43:10.479 pentagram and the trapezoid are what we're called we're call 1853 01:43:10.920 --> 01:43:13.560 we call the nine angles, uh from the Ceremony of 1854 01:43:13.560 --> 01:43:17.279 the Nine Angles. Okay, so it starts off. The first 1855 01:43:17.279 --> 01:43:19.960 one is the trapezoid in the upper right and then 1856 01:43:20.000 --> 01:43:27.439 it goes to the sorry backwards, Yeah, a baride ever 1857 01:43:27.600 --> 01:43:29.520 left is you know, because it's goes left of course 1858 01:43:29.720 --> 01:43:32.439 left hamp path. You know. So the first wrangles or 1859 01:43:32.479 --> 01:43:34.520 the trapezoid trace us and then you go back to 1860 01:43:34.520 --> 01:43:36.840 the beginning with the pentagram, and then you know, those 1861 01:43:37.039 --> 01:43:41.199 those five traced. Okay, So if you're if you're tracing 1862 01:43:41.239 --> 01:43:43.399 them in terms of because I'm trying to look at 1863 01:43:43.439 --> 01:43:45.239 the camera while I'm trying to get my finger around 1864 01:43:45.239 --> 01:43:47.159 the corner here, so give me a second. So if 1865 01:43:47.159 --> 01:43:51.039 you're if you're tracing them in terms of the angles, 1866 01:43:51.079 --> 01:43:58.640 you're gonna go, you know, one, two, three, four, five, sorry, five, six, seven, eight, nine, 1867 01:43:58.680 --> 01:44:01.239 and so forth right. But if you're tracing them around, 1868 01:44:01.319 --> 01:44:13.359 you would go, you know, one, five to eight. You know, 1869 01:44:14.680 --> 01:44:19.199 uh was a four, six, nine, et cetera. So there's 1870 01:44:19.239 --> 01:44:23.600 different ways of tracing that figure, in an anger a 1871 01:44:23.640 --> 01:44:29.000 way and in a curved way. Okay, So I'm trying 1872 01:44:29.039 --> 01:44:30.760 to figure out how to talk about this in a 1873 01:44:30.800 --> 01:44:36.079 six sixteenth succinct way. But in terms of your your 1874 01:44:36.119 --> 01:44:38.319 general question around the left hand path, think of this 1875 01:44:38.560 --> 01:44:44.800 in terms of the left hand path is dependent on 1876 01:44:44.840 --> 01:44:48.439 the way that you subjectively understand things that you as 1877 01:44:48.520 --> 01:44:54.039 the thinking, acting subject working against or with, depending on 1878 01:44:54.079 --> 01:44:57.520 what's needed at the time. The the objective universe, which is, 1879 01:44:57.720 --> 01:45:02.159 you know, the things outside yourself, the that's the you know, 1880 01:45:02.199 --> 01:45:04.800 the universe of matter and the laws, the government, it's 1881 01:45:04.880 --> 01:45:07.159 the people and other sending it being is within that. 1882 01:45:07.199 --> 01:45:10.680 It's basically everything outside of your own subjective, subjective self. 1883 01:45:11.319 --> 01:45:15.039 So you work with this idea that time for me 1884 01:45:15.439 --> 01:45:18.199 internally is different than it is for time outside myself. 1885 01:45:20.000 --> 01:45:22.399 It is perceived in a different way. We can work 1886 01:45:22.399 --> 01:45:26.359 with it in different ways, we can use it in 1887 01:45:27.319 --> 01:45:31.119 like for example, Lovecraft described and stories like The Haunter 1888 01:45:31.239 --> 01:45:33.439 of the Dark and the Dreams in the Witch House. 1889 01:45:33.880 --> 01:45:38.760 He even saw angular time as this kind of gateway 1890 01:45:38.760 --> 01:45:42.840 to different dimensions of way of working with non conventional reality, 1891 01:45:43.000 --> 01:45:48.119 working outside of just what what is the province of 1892 01:45:48.359 --> 01:45:53.479 everyday experience? Now within the within the left hand path, 1893 01:45:53.760 --> 01:45:58.479 there's this idea that not only do you have do 1894 01:45:58.560 --> 01:46:01.640 we stand apart in some way from the natural world. 1895 01:46:01.920 --> 01:46:04.640 Doesn't mean that we dislike it, doesn't mean that we 1896 01:46:04.640 --> 01:46:07.000 we ignore the natural world. Just means that we have 1897 01:46:07.119 --> 01:46:09.439 something that is separate in some way from it and 1898 01:46:09.479 --> 01:46:11.479 That's what has developed as part of the left hand path, 1899 01:46:11.600 --> 01:46:18.359 this idea that we become more potent, aware, capable, you know, 1900 01:46:18.439 --> 01:46:23.319 understanding within within ourselves, and that this is projected outward 1901 01:46:23.359 --> 01:46:25.600 in some way. It's known by its effects in the 1902 01:46:25.600 --> 01:46:31.239 world outside ourself. The way the angular time plays into 1903 01:46:31.279 --> 01:46:36.920 that is this this idea that you sometimes when you 1904 01:46:36.960 --> 01:46:40.840 have a different experience of time in a given situation, 1905 01:46:41.039 --> 01:46:43.199 you're not in control of it. You know, maybe it's 1906 01:46:43.239 --> 01:46:46.039 your you're stressed out or or you're super happy or whatever, 1907 01:46:46.079 --> 01:46:48.159 and it's going to affect the way the time time flows. 1908 01:46:48.800 --> 01:46:50.920 But what happens when you control it? What happens when 1909 01:46:50.920 --> 01:46:55.239 you sort of slow down time yourself, your your perspective 1910 01:46:55.239 --> 01:46:57.479 of time. And I'm and I'm well aware that I'm 1911 01:46:57.520 --> 01:46:59.720 not necessarily unless I'm traveling near the speed of light, 1912 01:46:59.720 --> 01:47:03.279 I'm not slowing down the passage of you know, a 1913 01:47:03.359 --> 01:47:06.800 second in the objective world. I'm talking about the passage 1914 01:47:06.880 --> 01:47:12.399 of a second within my subjective self. What you find 1915 01:47:12.479 --> 01:47:14.760 is that you can take more, you can find more 1916 01:47:15.359 --> 01:47:18.680 nuance in what you're doing. You can find you can 1917 01:47:18.720 --> 01:47:21.079 find those gaps in your understanding that maybe were not 1918 01:47:21.119 --> 01:47:23.479 invisible when you were just blazing past it at the normal, 1919 01:47:23.840 --> 01:47:30.039 normal rate of time. When you're engaged in some sort 1920 01:47:30.079 --> 01:47:32.479 of a creative process. Let's say, for example, you're writing 1921 01:47:32.479 --> 01:47:34.359 a piece of music, and this is an example. I 1922 01:47:34.439 --> 01:47:41.479 go into the illustrate within the book the way the 1923 01:47:41.520 --> 01:47:44.920 way that process looks internally acording to my own sort 1924 01:47:44.920 --> 01:47:47.680 of angular clock, you know, the way that I process 1925 01:47:47.760 --> 01:47:51.000 time within within myself is gonna be different from what 1926 01:47:51.119 --> 01:47:54.960 someone watching me, like create the music or rehearse it 1927 01:47:55.039 --> 01:47:57.399 or whatever, is going to see, you know, and like 1928 01:47:57.560 --> 01:48:01.279 you you may even have like normal examples you've seen 1929 01:48:01.319 --> 01:48:05.119 of this, Like if you ever watched like an elite athlete, 1930 01:48:05.279 --> 01:48:09.319 you know, and you watch them do moves like within 1931 01:48:09.359 --> 01:48:11.680 a space of time, you can't even understand someone moving 1932 01:48:11.720 --> 01:48:15.159 that fast. Well, if you ask them what they are 1933 01:48:15.600 --> 01:48:19.079 experiencing for them, it's like, oh, yeah, I had all 1934 01:48:19.119 --> 01:48:20.720 the time in the world to do that, to do 1935 01:48:21.319 --> 01:48:23.159 this one move. And you're like, but that's but that's 1936 01:48:23.199 --> 01:48:26.560 not what I saw. But that's right. It's because you're 1937 01:48:26.600 --> 01:48:31.000 seeing from the outside as opposed to what they're experiencing 1938 01:48:31.000 --> 01:48:35.239 from the inside. So so that kind of being able 1939 01:48:35.239 --> 01:48:37.520 to speed up and slow down your perception of time 1940 01:48:37.800 --> 01:48:41.520 is crucially important for for magic. That's also crucially important 1941 01:48:41.600 --> 01:48:47.920 just for anything that that works with the world outside yourself, 1942 01:48:48.439 --> 01:48:51.159 because you need to be able to interact with it 1943 01:48:51.199 --> 01:48:52.760 on your own term. So that's a critical part of 1944 01:48:52.760 --> 01:48:55.479 the left hand path. It's the I am deciding how 1945 01:48:55.560 --> 01:48:58.399 this interaction that is going to go. But it's also 1946 01:48:59.560 --> 01:49:01.800 in terms of trying to trying to have a better 1947 01:49:01.880 --> 01:49:05.960 understanding and more deeper understanding of who am I as 1948 01:49:06.039 --> 01:49:10.199 part of this, you know, to be able to you know, 1949 01:49:10.279 --> 01:49:14.000 to speed up or slow down that perspective of yourself 1950 01:49:14.159 --> 01:49:18.319 as as someone acting within time, because we can't escape 1951 01:49:18.359 --> 01:49:21.840 from time. You know, we're you know, we've been talking 1952 01:49:21.880 --> 01:49:24.840 for an hour and fifty fifty minutes now, right, you 1953 01:49:24.880 --> 01:49:27.760 know that's at one level, that's an hour and fifty minutes. 1954 01:49:27.760 --> 01:49:29.720 I'm never going to get back. But on the other hand, 1955 01:49:29.920 --> 01:49:33.479 I'm having a great time. On the third hand, third hand, 1956 01:49:33.680 --> 01:49:37.560 I'm going back to Lovecraft, I guess on the on 1957 01:49:37.880 --> 01:49:40.079 yet another, yet another hand. If you if I couldn't 1958 01:49:40.119 --> 01:49:42.399 see that on my screen, I'm putting my hand up 1959 01:49:42.399 --> 01:49:43.800 before I can't see it. And you asked me how 1960 01:49:43.840 --> 01:49:46.039 long we've been talking, I would have said maybe thirty 1961 01:49:46.079 --> 01:49:48.399 minutes so far. I don't know, right, because because you 1962 01:49:48.439 --> 01:49:54.319 don't really we're not always aware of of of doing this. 1963 01:49:56.079 --> 01:49:58.359 But if I deliberately decide, you know what, I'm going 1964 01:49:58.399 --> 01:50:00.560 to make this hour and a half last as long 1965 01:50:00.600 --> 01:50:05.199 as I can, that opens up possibilities to you that 1966 01:50:05.239 --> 01:50:09.239 weren't there before as well. So so I guess to 1967 01:50:09.279 --> 01:50:11.760 make a long story short and yeah, too late. I 1968 01:50:11.800 --> 01:50:15.600 know that's that's the case with me. But but but 1969 01:50:15.640 --> 01:50:19.359 it's a lot of it's about that how you can 1970 01:50:20.359 --> 01:50:23.119 manipulate and work with your own perception of time in 1971 01:50:23.239 --> 01:50:27.439 order to open up possibilities and work there before. But 1972 01:50:27.479 --> 01:50:29.000 see if I just said that one sentence, so you 1973 01:50:29.039 --> 01:50:32.079 were to go you answer a question, man, Whereas I, if 1974 01:50:31.960 --> 01:50:33.439 I say that to sum up what I just said, 1975 01:50:33.560 --> 01:50:35.479 is like now it's like, oh that makes sense. 1976 01:50:36.319 --> 01:50:41.199 Sure, I'm using late to work when I when I 1977 01:50:41.199 --> 01:50:45.479 had a boss, and I did try to slow time 1978 01:50:45.560 --> 01:50:48.279 down so that I don't get too late to work, 1979 01:50:48.520 --> 01:50:52.880 and in my mind it did work. So it's it's 1980 01:50:52.920 --> 01:50:56.560 all a matter of using that plasticity that time is 1981 01:50:56.600 --> 01:50:58.920 in terms of your perception and what time and you 1982 01:50:58.960 --> 01:51:02.600 can actually see the time on the clock take longer 1983 01:51:02.680 --> 01:51:07.640 to cause. That might be our own self activation, creating 1984 01:51:07.640 --> 01:51:11.760 it to yourself, but it might be real right it all, 1985 01:51:11.800 --> 01:51:16.520 It all depends on your ability to use that intention 1986 01:51:16.680 --> 01:51:20.640 and transform time itself or the bubble that where you 1987 01:51:20.680 --> 01:51:21.640 are set into. 1988 01:51:22.520 --> 01:51:22.800 Mm hm. 1989 01:51:24.640 --> 01:51:27.079 Did have any other questions before? 1990 01:51:29.319 --> 01:51:33.760 I was going to ask a more simple question? Could 1991 01:51:34.279 --> 01:51:36.439 you for the audience and especially for me, because. 1992 01:51:36.199 --> 01:51:40.079 I don't know what what is the is what is 1993 01:51:40.119 --> 01:51:44.520 the difference in the relationship between the Temple of Set 1994 01:51:44.680 --> 01:51:47.800 and the Order trapsoid okay? 1995 01:51:48.039 --> 01:51:52.319 So so within the temple, well, I mean back for 1996 01:51:52.319 --> 01:51:54.680 a second, so for for those for those who may 1997 01:51:54.680 --> 01:52:00.000 not know, So the Temple of Set is there's an 1998 01:52:00.079 --> 01:52:06.159 organization built around the religion of Uh working with with Set. 1999 01:52:06.439 --> 01:52:09.600 We don't like the word Setianism very much, but say 2000 01:52:09.640 --> 01:52:12.920 like the Setian Setian religion if you will. So it's 2001 01:52:13.000 --> 01:52:16.960 it's it is religious, although not all members see it 2002 01:52:17.000 --> 01:52:18.760 as a religion. They some of them just see it 2003 01:52:18.800 --> 01:52:22.640 as a magical organization. And that's okay, Uh, But we 2004 01:52:22.640 --> 01:52:26.039 do work with the magic we were Uh. We consider 2005 01:52:26.039 --> 01:52:31.640 ourselves to be engaged in initiation, basically improving ourselves. But 2006 01:52:33.159 --> 01:52:35.560 one things that's sometimes misunderstood about the temple because the 2007 01:52:35.640 --> 01:52:37.399 name Temple of Set is they assume, oh, it's only 2008 01:52:37.399 --> 01:52:40.880 about Egyptian stuff. That's definitely not the case. It's never 2009 01:52:40.920 --> 01:52:43.239 been the case. The reason is that Temple of Set 2010 01:52:43.439 --> 01:52:46.960 is for us, that is the oldest as we understand it. 2011 01:52:47.279 --> 01:52:52.119 That is the oldest name that we as humans know 2012 01:52:52.199 --> 01:52:55.279 of for the figure we sometimes referred to as the 2013 01:52:55.279 --> 01:52:58.960 Prince of Darkness. You know, it's been known by many 2014 01:52:58.960 --> 01:53:04.039 other names Set, other than Mardu, Tescalavoca, et cetera. But 2015 01:53:04.159 --> 01:53:06.880 Set is probably the oldest such name for it that 2016 01:53:06.920 --> 01:53:09.199 we know of. And so that that's that kind of 2017 01:53:09.239 --> 01:53:11.159 like getting back to the roots kind of ideas part 2018 01:53:11.159 --> 01:53:13.239 of Wife's there. Now. We do work quite a bit 2019 01:53:13.279 --> 01:53:18.199 with the Egyptian ideas, but that but definitely not exclusively those. 2020 01:53:18.680 --> 01:53:21.399 And in fact, I'm I'm probably kind of the middle 2021 01:53:21.399 --> 01:53:23.199 of the road, in middle of the pack in terms 2022 01:53:23.279 --> 01:53:27.439 of like focusing on Egyptian ideas. I mean, I'm well 2023 01:53:27.560 --> 01:53:30.520 versed in it, but it's not my focus now within 2024 01:53:30.600 --> 01:53:33.920 the temple. And this is makes more sense with that 2025 01:53:34.000 --> 01:53:36.000 idea that it's not just an Egyptian thing. We have 2026 01:53:36.079 --> 01:53:40.039 these groups within the temple called orders. Now, orders are 2027 01:53:40.079 --> 01:53:41.960 led by masters of the Temple. There are people that 2028 01:53:41.960 --> 01:53:45.359 have reached certain levels of a certain degree of initiation 2029 01:53:45.399 --> 01:53:50.439 within the Temple. And orders are sort of like if 2030 01:53:50.479 --> 01:53:53.239 you think of like a university, you have like you 2031 01:53:53.319 --> 01:53:56.079 have like the University of wherever, but then it has 2032 01:53:56.159 --> 01:53:58.279 like the College of Arts and Sciences that has the 2033 01:53:58.279 --> 01:54:00.399 College of Business, that has the College of this. So 2034 01:54:00.600 --> 01:54:03.520 think kind of like the orders are like individual colleges 2035 01:54:03.600 --> 01:54:05.720 within this broader thing that is the Temple of Set. 2036 01:54:06.560 --> 01:54:10.439 Now I'm a member of I personally am a member 2037 01:54:10.439 --> 01:54:12.920 of two orders within the with the Temple. That's not 2038 01:54:12.960 --> 01:54:16.840 an uncommon thing to have happened. There are Oh I 2039 01:54:16.840 --> 01:54:21.960 don't know, I don't want to go, I want to 2040 01:54:21.960 --> 01:54:23.720 sit down. Think by the Holism is like eight or 2041 01:54:23.760 --> 01:54:29.159 ten orders active at the moment, something like that that 2042 01:54:29.159 --> 01:54:33.680 that focus on specific areas of magic, specific areas of 2043 01:54:34.079 --> 01:54:39.840 understanding of the set, or understanding of the things that 2044 01:54:40.000 --> 01:54:42.319 things that we do. Now, the Order of the Trapezoli 2045 01:54:42.479 --> 01:54:44.279 is one of those. I'm the grand master of that order. 2046 01:54:44.600 --> 01:54:46.159 I'm part of a different order, but I'm not the 2047 01:54:46.199 --> 01:54:48.560 grand master of that order. I'm part of the Order 2048 01:54:48.560 --> 01:54:53.840 of Tmot as well, which works with Mesopotamian magic and 2049 01:54:54.359 --> 01:54:58.800 related ideas. So the Order of the Trapezoid has its 2050 01:54:58.880 --> 01:55:00.840 roots in the Church of Satan. It was an idea 2051 01:55:00.880 --> 01:55:05.439 originally sort of created by Anton Leave even though it 2052 01:55:05.520 --> 01:55:07.880 never was really a formal thing within the Church of Satan. 2053 01:55:07.880 --> 01:55:13.359 It was just kind of it was it was an 2054 01:55:13.399 --> 01:55:17.880 idea that that he had that there was a sort 2055 01:55:17.920 --> 01:55:22.600 of kind of rarefied thing behind like the movers and 2056 01:55:22.600 --> 01:55:25.720 shakers behind the church, that the Order of the trapsol 2057 01:55:25.880 --> 01:55:30.279 was is the board of directors, the of the security staff, 2058 01:55:30.399 --> 01:55:34.079 the but but it also had very Germanic like looking 2059 01:55:34.079 --> 01:55:36.880 at ruins and the figure voting and things like that, 2060 01:55:37.520 --> 01:55:40.520 because Anton Anton don't really know much about rooms, but 2061 01:55:40.640 --> 01:55:45.039 he was very well versed in very enamored with German expressionism, 2062 01:55:45.800 --> 01:55:48.760 things about the Cabinet of Darda Caligary metropolis of those 2063 01:55:49.079 --> 01:55:53.039 great movies from the and art et cetera from the 2064 01:55:53.119 --> 01:55:58.960 nineteen twenties in Germany. Anyway, so when the Temblives that 2065 01:55:59.079 --> 01:56:03.960 was founded in ninety seventy five, that the Order of 2066 01:56:03.960 --> 01:56:06.439 the Trapezoid as an idea was kind of kept as 2067 01:56:06.479 --> 01:56:10.199 a similar sort of thing. Then later nineteen eighty two 2068 01:56:10.680 --> 01:56:13.279 by Michael Aquino, who was the founder of the Temple 2069 01:56:13.279 --> 01:56:18.239 of Set at did A, in response to things that 2070 01:56:18.239 --> 01:56:20.720 were happening with other temple did A working that he 2071 01:56:20.760 --> 01:56:25.319 came to understand more deeply. What he saw was the 2072 01:56:25.399 --> 01:56:27.560 idea of the Order of the Trapezoid, and what he 2073 01:56:27.680 --> 01:56:34.920 realized is that a it's focused on things like ruins 2074 01:56:36.000 --> 01:56:38.800 and the like were it was kind of like a 2075 01:56:38.800 --> 01:56:40.800 almost like a yin yang kind of thing with what 2076 01:56:40.840 --> 01:56:43.680 we were doing with the the some of the work 2077 01:56:43.680 --> 01:56:45.279 of the temple. The idea that you need kind of 2078 01:56:45.359 --> 01:56:48.760 like you need like a different way, a different perspective, 2079 01:56:48.800 --> 01:56:52.760 a different alternate perspective of looking at some of the 2080 01:56:52.760 --> 01:56:56.079 ideas that we had about about Set and magic and 2081 01:56:56.079 --> 01:57:03.439 so forth. And so it became, alongside several other orders 2082 01:57:03.479 --> 01:57:06.960 at the same time, became orders that were that were 2083 01:57:07.000 --> 01:57:11.079 specific to specific ways of looking at magic, specific ways 2084 01:57:11.079 --> 01:57:15.439 of looking at the figure of Set and related figures. 2085 01:57:17.119 --> 01:57:20.319 And so to this day, the Order of the Trapezoid 2086 01:57:20.439 --> 01:57:26.039 is largely focused on broadly speaking, well really it's broadly 2087 01:57:26.079 --> 01:57:30.840 speaking about runa. Runa is an ancient Germanic word meaning 2088 01:57:30.880 --> 01:57:37.479 the mysteries or mystery. In fact, like the oldest long 2089 01:57:37.560 --> 01:57:40.840 form written text in any Germanic language is the Gothic Bible, 2090 01:57:41.399 --> 01:57:45.279 written by the Bishop of Uffalas somewhere around the year 2091 01:57:45.640 --> 01:57:48.800 four hundred, I think that were in the fourth century. 2092 01:57:48.840 --> 01:57:52.399 In any event, where he was translating the New Testament 2093 01:57:52.840 --> 01:57:55.680 from a from ancient Greek into the Gothic language, which 2094 01:57:55.720 --> 01:57:58.680 is a Germanic language. It's now extinct. No one speaks 2095 01:57:58.720 --> 01:58:03.000 Gothic still, at least is a first language. And so 2096 01:58:03.199 --> 01:58:05.880 Runa was like the way that the word mysterion from 2097 01:58:05.880 --> 01:58:08.039 Greek was translated. So that's how we know that it 2098 01:58:08.119 --> 01:58:11.880 means not just mystery, like like where my car keys go, 2099 01:58:12.359 --> 01:58:15.560 but like transcendent mystery, right, the idea that that there's 2100 01:58:16.000 --> 01:58:18.600 you know, there's a hidden reality behind things that we 2101 01:58:18.680 --> 01:58:21.399 have to discover in and of ourselves. Because that's how 2102 01:58:21.399 --> 01:58:23.880 the word mysterion was used in the New Testament. It 2103 01:58:24.159 --> 01:58:26.520 was referred to the mysteries of God, you know, the 2104 01:58:26.560 --> 01:58:32.479 mysteries of the Crucifixion, et cetera. Now, in practical sense, 2105 01:58:33.239 --> 01:58:34.319 you know, a lot of what we work with in 2106 01:58:34.359 --> 01:58:36.880 the order of the trapezoid is like things like ruins 2107 01:58:36.960 --> 01:58:39.920 we work with, you know. Odin is the particular form 2108 01:58:39.960 --> 01:58:43.600 of the prince of darkness that we kind of interact with, 2109 01:58:43.840 --> 01:58:46.560 which is different. I mean not definitely would not say 2110 01:58:46.560 --> 01:58:49.119 that Set and Odin are the same god, but that 2111 01:58:49.199 --> 01:58:53.199 they are both through culturally determined way as they're expressing 2112 01:58:53.960 --> 01:58:57.159 something essential about what it is to be a self aware, 2113 01:58:57.359 --> 01:59:03.600 self evolving a being than the cosmos. And so yeah, 2114 01:59:03.640 --> 01:59:07.720 so that we also work with broader things, which is 2115 01:59:08.520 --> 01:59:11.600 runa mystery is the connector more so than the Germanic things, 2116 01:59:11.640 --> 01:59:13.760 but just so happens in many of things were interested 2117 01:59:13.760 --> 01:59:17.600 in our Germanic things, like like the ruins, you know, 2118 01:59:17.640 --> 01:59:23.439 the cosmology of of the the pros that is on 2119 01:59:23.560 --> 01:59:30.239 those lines. So yeah, so, I mean it's not entirely accurate, 2120 01:59:30.239 --> 01:59:31.640 but the easiest way to describe it as like we 2121 01:59:31.960 --> 01:59:35.079 look at basically the more kind of Germanic type forms 2122 01:59:35.119 --> 01:59:40.359 of magic and religion and initiation, even though it kind 2123 01:59:40.359 --> 01:59:43.439 of goes a bit more broadly than that, because like 2124 01:59:44.079 --> 01:59:46.680 it's like for myself that that's mean I mentioned like 2125 01:59:46.720 --> 01:59:50.680 I don't work it as much directly with with Egyptian ideas, 2126 01:59:50.840 --> 01:59:55.000 you know, I'm relatively well versed in them. I tend 2127 01:59:55.000 --> 01:59:57.920 to think more in terms of the coroner of Germanic orientation, 2128 01:59:58.800 --> 02:00:01.439 because I'm also part of the Rune Guild, which is 2129 02:00:01.439 --> 02:00:04.600 an initiative organization founded by Stephen Flowers that all that 2130 02:00:04.640 --> 02:00:08.960 works with the Rooms and works with it doesn't The 2131 02:00:09.039 --> 02:00:11.920 Room Guild is an initiatory organization, a magical organization. It's 2132 02:00:11.960 --> 02:00:14.359 not a religion, even though there are people within the 2133 02:00:14.359 --> 02:00:20.119 Guild who are also true you know, work with you know, 2134 02:00:20.159 --> 02:00:27.079 the Norse gods in certain ways. But yeah, it's just different. 2135 02:00:27.399 --> 02:00:29.800 It's a different approach to magic, a different approach to 2136 02:00:29.960 --> 02:00:32.680 the mysteries of the cosmos, a different approach to what 2137 02:00:32.720 --> 02:00:34.920 it means to be a self aware of self evolving being. 2138 02:00:35.439 --> 02:00:37.279 So there's different ways to look at it. And then 2139 02:00:37.319 --> 02:00:40.680 that's where the university metaphor is kind of apt, because 2140 02:00:40.720 --> 02:00:44.680 like you, you know, you're you're learning whatever college you're 2141 02:00:44.680 --> 02:00:47.880 part of, but you're learning through the lens of business 2142 02:00:47.960 --> 02:00:49.840 in the College of Business. You're learning through the lens 2143 02:00:49.840 --> 02:00:53.159 of some sorts of arts or sciences in the College 2144 02:00:53.159 --> 02:00:56.039 of Arts and Sciences, et cetera. So you may learn 2145 02:00:56.319 --> 02:00:58.720 the same things but from different perspectives and with a 2146 02:00:58.760 --> 02:01:03.079 different orientation, with a different a different concentration and focus, if. 2147 02:01:02.920 --> 02:01:05.880 You will, Mil there is kind of a trapezoid too, 2148 02:01:06.359 --> 02:01:08.800 that's kind of the shape of the hammer. 2149 02:01:10.039 --> 02:01:15.000 Yeah, yeah, I don't know if it was. I doubt 2150 02:01:15.039 --> 02:01:17.039 there was any kind of explicit connection to it, because 2151 02:01:17.079 --> 02:01:19.920 like a lot of times, and a lot of the 2152 02:01:19.960 --> 02:01:22.760 more trapezotal ones are newer designs, although there are some 2153 02:01:22.920 --> 02:01:25.840 historical antecedents for those, A lot of the oldest designs 2154 02:01:25.880 --> 02:01:29.960 that are generally agreed to be to be hammers are 2155 02:01:31.319 --> 02:01:34.119 they would just like it up like a t or 2156 02:01:34.520 --> 02:01:36.840 or even just like a a cross. Now, now what 2157 02:01:36.880 --> 02:01:39.239 you do see a very Trapizola figure is that what's 2158 02:01:39.439 --> 02:01:43.159 come to be known as the vauk newt youah, the 2159 02:01:43.199 --> 02:01:47.279 no of the Fallen, even though that's a that is 2160 02:01:47.319 --> 02:01:49.479 an old Norse name, but that is a name. That's 2161 02:01:49.479 --> 02:01:50.960 a sign of that figure out which we have no 2162 02:01:51.000 --> 02:01:53.479 idea what it was actually called, or even if it'd 2163 02:01:53.520 --> 02:01:57.600 even had a name. But that's that's the three triangles 2164 02:01:57.600 --> 02:02:00.560 that interlocked with each other, right, And it shows. 2165 02:02:00.439 --> 02:02:05.520 Up oftentimes in the figure of Odin's horse like where 2166 02:02:07.000 --> 02:02:09.920 and so to me that kind of implies some some 2167 02:02:09.960 --> 02:02:12.279 form of shaman is am associated with that symbol. 2168 02:02:13.399 --> 02:02:17.680 Yeah, yeah, it it almost exclusively shows up in yeah, 2169 02:02:17.760 --> 02:02:20.640 and images with with odin yeah, often not always with 2170 02:02:21.079 --> 02:02:26.479 sleepe near the legged horsemen, but often. Yeah, that was 2171 02:02:26.560 --> 02:02:30.840 probably some association with it. And I don't know who 2172 02:02:30.960 --> 02:02:33.279 gave it the name. The Vaulknut, which which means the 2173 02:02:33.640 --> 02:02:36.640 not of the fallen vall is the same root as 2174 02:02:36.640 --> 02:02:44.319 in Valkyrie and Valla in Canute. Is not fairly really obviously, 2175 02:02:47.039 --> 02:02:50.640 but yeah, it's a yeah, that's the thing. I Almost 2176 02:02:50.720 --> 02:02:53.840 anything you read about that figure is is speculative. But 2177 02:02:58.039 --> 02:03:03.920 I mean it fuels Whenever multiple people, multiple people speculate 2178 02:03:03.960 --> 02:03:06.800 the same thing about a symbol like that, they're probably 2179 02:03:06.840 --> 02:03:09.279 onto something, even if you can't prove it. 2180 02:03:09.439 --> 02:03:13.039 Right, well, I think the artistic representation sort of put 2181 02:03:13.039 --> 02:03:16.680 it into those different positions as being relevant. So like 2182 02:03:16.800 --> 02:03:21.000 binding on binding and and you know, like destruction, those 2183 02:03:21.239 --> 02:03:23.119 those are all sort of bound up in that same 2184 02:03:23.119 --> 02:03:23.800 sort of schedule. 2185 02:03:24.319 --> 02:03:27.319 Right. Well, you can also think of it again, this 2186 02:03:27.359 --> 02:03:29.279 is speculative, so no one, no one shoot me if 2187 02:03:29.479 --> 02:03:32.760 you think about this differently, but you because it's all 2188 02:03:33.199 --> 02:03:36.359 it's all speculative with that figure. But you know, another 2189 02:03:37.279 --> 02:03:39.479 way to look at it is that it's representative or 2190 02:03:39.479 --> 02:03:41.800 connected with somehow with weird, you know, because if you 2191 02:03:41.840 --> 02:03:44.039 think about if you have the three triangles that are interlocked, 2192 02:03:44.319 --> 02:03:45.800 you know, if you have if you have that, if 2193 02:03:45.840 --> 02:03:47.800 you're holding a figure in your hand, there's three triangles 2194 02:03:47.800 --> 02:03:50.079 that are interlocked, like, you can't pull it apart. It's 2195 02:03:50.640 --> 02:03:53.720 that arrangement is not going anywhere. It's stuck. Well, that's 2196 02:03:53.880 --> 02:03:56.159 that's what weird is. It's like, weird is what has 2197 02:03:56.159 --> 02:03:59.520 been laid down in this it's configured in the way 2198 02:03:59.520 --> 02:04:02.720 that it happens whatever whatever actually came to be. That's that. 2199 02:04:02.840 --> 02:04:04.520 That was it, that was that was the why it happened. 2200 02:04:05.159 --> 02:04:08.079 But if you had those, if you had the three 2201 02:04:08.119 --> 02:04:11.159 triangles like, it wouldn't be you could pull them apart, 2202 02:04:11.239 --> 02:04:13.920 but you could still maybe wiggle them a little bit. Well, 2203 02:04:14.039 --> 02:04:17.880 you can still you know, wiggle your perception of the past. 2204 02:04:18.199 --> 02:04:20.119 You can still think of it in certain ways. You 2205 02:04:20.119 --> 02:04:23.479 you can you can see you can see ways that well, 2206 02:04:23.520 --> 02:04:24.720 I can look at it this way, you can look 2207 02:04:24.720 --> 02:04:27.279 at it this way. You know, two events, you know, 2208 02:04:27.439 --> 02:04:31.159 peering uh, you know, differently to different observers. So like 2209 02:04:31.520 --> 02:04:32.960 that weren't. 2210 02:04:34.880 --> 02:04:38.640 The two uh crows of odin right there too, So 2211 02:04:38.680 --> 02:04:41.840 you've got sort of that same kind of dual perspective 2212 02:04:41.920 --> 02:04:43.800 on things, right. 2213 02:04:43.800 --> 02:04:46.840 Right, well, and even there it's you know their name, 2214 02:04:46.960 --> 02:04:50.279 Hugen immunion, right, so it's mind and memory, uh broadly, 2215 02:04:51.640 --> 02:04:55.000 you know, and what what they're what those two things 2216 02:04:55.039 --> 02:04:58.239 in interaction with the other. Tell Odin or tell anyone 2217 02:04:58.279 --> 02:05:01.199 else that would work with work with those consops. And 2218 02:05:01.239 --> 02:05:04.159 that's also I think it's in the Grimnis Male, one 2219 02:05:04.159 --> 02:05:06.880 of the poems in the poetic Atta, where Odin says 2220 02:05:08.239 --> 02:05:10.800 that you know that every day you know the rayvens. 2221 02:05:10.840 --> 02:05:13.039 I don't know the exact line, but every day they 2222 02:05:13.159 --> 02:05:15.800 fly out, and like I fear that h Can won't 2223 02:05:15.800 --> 02:05:17.479 come back, But I fear even more than Union won't 2224 02:05:17.520 --> 02:05:22.039 come back. If we think about it, you have to 2225 02:05:22.119 --> 02:05:27.479 have effective thought requires effective memory. You have ever been 2226 02:05:27.479 --> 02:05:30.439 around someone with dementia, which, unfortunately you know a couple 2227 02:05:30.479 --> 02:05:32.880 of people in my family have. I have dealt with that. 2228 02:05:33.479 --> 02:05:36.199 It's one of the things that happens when someone is 2229 02:05:36.199 --> 02:05:39.920 is losing their ability to form or to recall memory, 2230 02:05:40.560 --> 02:05:44.079 is they use the ability to think rationally as well, 2231 02:05:44.119 --> 02:05:47.119 because they can't hold the things in mind to think 2232 02:05:47.159 --> 02:05:50.640 about them in in a meaningful way. So yeah, it's 2233 02:05:51.439 --> 02:05:55.239 there's a lot of wisdom encoded in that that it's this, 2234 02:05:56.800 --> 02:05:59.159 you know, I mean, the one thing that that bugs 2235 02:05:59.199 --> 02:06:00.960 me to know in about myth. And this is a 2236 02:06:01.079 --> 02:06:03.479 very modernistic way that people see myth is that Leo 2237 02:06:03.640 --> 02:06:05.840 is just like bad science. They just understand how the 2238 02:06:05.880 --> 02:06:08.680 World war. It's like, yes, there's some parts of myth 2239 02:06:08.680 --> 02:06:11.840 that that that was attempts to explain national phenomenon, But 2240 02:06:11.960 --> 02:06:15.279 so much of myth is really about encoding. This is 2241 02:06:15.319 --> 02:06:18.520 what matters, is what matters to us as a society, 2242 02:06:18.680 --> 02:06:22.680 because sometimes you have in mythology around like the you know, 2243 02:06:22.720 --> 02:06:27.039 the gods, like this is this is portraying the ideal 2244 02:06:27.119 --> 02:06:30.319 arrangement of of of our society. But in other cases, 2245 02:06:30.439 --> 02:06:34.920 like Hugan immunion, it's it's encoding certain things that they understood. 2246 02:06:35.159 --> 02:06:36.960 And if people that heard the stories would have not 2247 02:06:37.039 --> 02:06:39.000 just thought, oh, it's a story about two ravens, they 2248 02:06:39.039 --> 02:06:42.239 would have understood, yes, but it has this significance is 2249 02:06:42.239 --> 02:06:47.319 why the story matters. Well, yeah, you've got to send 2250 02:06:47.319 --> 02:06:51.680 them out to bring you to bring you back knowledge. Yeah. Well, 2251 02:06:51.840 --> 02:06:54.279 and even and that's the thing. Even the the old 2252 02:06:54.359 --> 02:06:58.159 Norse term for mad for well, on one old Norse 2253 02:06:58.239 --> 02:07:03.319 term for magic god are ultimately comes from the same 2254 02:07:03.399 --> 02:07:06.680 roots as the root for the sounds that raven makes. 2255 02:07:07.279 --> 02:07:09.479 So there's a very deep connection that that's there as 2256 02:07:09.520 --> 02:07:10.000 part of it. 2257 02:07:11.680 --> 02:07:12.359 And if you. 2258 02:07:14.399 --> 02:07:16.479 We don't have a lot of information about how runes 2259 02:07:16.479 --> 02:07:20.760 were worked with and you know, in olden times like that, 2260 02:07:21.159 --> 02:07:23.000 but we have a lot of clues that tell us 2261 02:07:23.039 --> 02:07:26.239 that these are probably related to the ways they worked 2262 02:07:26.239 --> 02:07:31.840 with and the idea of speaking, you know, go back 2263 02:07:31.840 --> 02:07:34.319 to ideas about word magic, an idea of like chanting 2264 02:07:34.359 --> 02:07:37.319 certain things. And sometimes that's it's actual wars. Sometimes it's gibberish. 2265 02:07:37.319 --> 02:07:41.399 There are runic formulas in in the Elder Fouth arc 2266 02:07:41.560 --> 02:07:45.840 you know, two thousand, five hundred years old that that 2267 02:07:45.960 --> 02:07:49.039 are are not actual words. So it may have been 2268 02:07:49.319 --> 02:07:51.880 glossa elia, it may have been. You know, they're trying 2269 02:07:51.880 --> 02:07:55.319 to create the sounds have the magic. The word doesn't 2270 02:07:55.319 --> 02:07:58.479 have the magic. That idea. But if you've ever spent 2271 02:07:58.560 --> 02:08:02.000 much time around ravens, Ravens talk all the time. You 2272 02:08:02.119 --> 02:08:04.319 Crows are not the same. They're they're related birds, but 2273 02:08:04.359 --> 02:08:07.960 they're not. Crows are smaller, they're less chatty. Ravens talk 2274 02:08:08.079 --> 02:08:10.920 all the time, and ravens are also fascinated with people 2275 02:08:11.720 --> 02:08:14.359 that they hang around, and not just because they're waiting, 2276 02:08:14.439 --> 02:08:17.600 wantings to give them a crumb. They're they're fascinated by 2277 02:08:19.600 --> 02:08:21.359 I don't know if they think we're just weird ravens. 2278 02:08:22.119 --> 02:08:26.880 I don't know what they're thinking, but objects, shiny objects. 2279 02:08:26.960 --> 02:08:27.079 Right. 2280 02:08:27.960 --> 02:08:30.039 But like they're they're talking, they're talking all the time, 2281 02:08:30.199 --> 02:08:33.000 and they're talking the way of the ways that like 2282 02:08:34.159 --> 02:08:36.000 that sounded like it had intent. That was not just 2283 02:08:36.119 --> 02:08:38.640 like a random wasn't a bird song. It's not it's 2284 02:08:38.640 --> 02:08:44.279 not beautiful speech, you know, but like you know, you 2285 02:08:44.279 --> 02:08:46.359 you hear them, you hear them, and like it's said, 2286 02:08:46.399 --> 02:08:48.840 it sounds like they're talking to each other because it 2287 02:08:48.920 --> 02:08:51.560 just sounds like you can't understand it, even though some people, 2288 02:08:52.680 --> 02:08:56.399 you know, you know, according according to the saga, some 2289 02:08:56.439 --> 02:08:57.520 people can understand it. 2290 02:08:59.279 --> 02:09:02.920 That's what they call the language before the Tower of Babylon, 2291 02:09:03.000 --> 02:09:04.199 right mm hmm. 2292 02:09:04.680 --> 02:09:04.920 Yeah. 2293 02:09:05.039 --> 02:09:09.439 Well, in here they cut a line that is being 2294 02:09:09.560 --> 02:09:13.199 min east the tongue of the tongue of the of 2295 02:09:13.279 --> 02:09:18.159 the of the raven, and they are they start to 2296 02:09:18.199 --> 02:09:23.079 speak much like humans and much less like birds. When 2297 02:09:23.159 --> 02:09:25.159 that is done. 2298 02:09:24.560 --> 02:09:28.960 Oh yeah, yeah, wow, because. 2299 02:09:28.720 --> 02:09:31.840 The tongue the sun gains the ability to move much more. 2300 02:09:31.920 --> 02:09:35.279 So it's it's a terrible procedure, but but it works. 2301 02:09:35.359 --> 02:09:39.399 They start to speak normally, but almost normally. You can 2302 02:09:39.520 --> 02:09:42.960 understand everything they say, and they can understand almost four 2303 02:09:43.039 --> 02:09:46.159 hundred words some of the birds. So it's a lot. 2304 02:09:48.279 --> 02:09:52.399 Very between ravens and humans. Yeah. 2305 02:09:52.520 --> 02:09:55.760 I just want to jump in and say, for Carter's point, 2306 02:09:55.840 --> 02:09:59.640 is that in Sanskrit the word for twilight language and 2307 02:09:59.800 --> 02:10:05.439 the is it literally means besides pilight language, the words 2308 02:10:05.439 --> 02:10:08.880 within the gap. So again it's sort of bringing it 2309 02:10:08.920 --> 02:10:13.399 back to the angle right like the you'd be so, yeah, 2310 02:10:13.439 --> 02:10:13.920 there you go. 2311 02:10:14.560 --> 02:10:17.680 Nice? Nice. Did anybody have any other questions before I 2312 02:10:17.680 --> 02:10:24.000 wrap it up? It's been a minute now, I think Toby, 2313 02:10:24.239 --> 02:10:26.640 that was amazing. Thank you so much, and everybody on 2314 02:10:26.680 --> 02:10:27.840 the show too, with all the questions. 2315 02:10:27.880 --> 02:10:29.920 Thanks for having me back always. You guys always have 2316 02:10:30.000 --> 02:10:33.399 great questions. It's always really fantastic discussion. Yeah, happy to 2317 02:10:33.399 --> 02:10:35.000 come back on anytime. Just let me know what we 2318 02:10:35.079 --> 02:10:35.640 want to talk about it. 2319 02:10:35.800 --> 02:10:38.359 I'm sure. I'm sure we will have you on again. Uh, 2320 02:10:38.399 --> 02:10:40.239 before we wrap it up, would you like to let 2321 02:10:40.279 --> 02:10:41.880 everybody know where they can find your work and all 2322 02:10:41.920 --> 02:10:42.920 your stuff again, please. 2323 02:10:42.720 --> 02:10:47.520 Sure so recapping a bit from the beginning so you 2324 02:10:47.520 --> 02:10:50.079 can find me most easily in a couple of places 2325 02:10:50.079 --> 02:10:54.319 online at Infernal Geometry dot com as well as that's 2326 02:10:54.359 --> 02:10:56.960 kind of my older site, and the one that's a 2327 02:10:57.000 --> 02:11:00.199 bit more current is that semiurgist dot com see am 2328 02:11:00.199 --> 02:11:02.760 I U R G I S T dot com, and 2329 02:11:02.800 --> 02:11:05.520 that has content information for me for social media. It 2330 02:11:05.560 --> 02:11:07.279 has an email address if you want to write to me, 2331 02:11:08.000 --> 02:11:09.840 please feel free to write if you want to talk 2332 02:11:09.840 --> 02:11:12.800 any more about any of these things or or beyond. 2333 02:11:13.920 --> 02:11:17.479 Listen man, you can find my two books, Infernal Geometry 2334 02:11:17.479 --> 02:11:20.319 and The Left Hand Path, actually right here in Fernal 2335 02:11:20.319 --> 02:11:22.960 Geometry in the Left Hand Path, which was what we 2336 02:11:23.680 --> 02:11:28.279 occasionally talked about today, and then and then the newest one. 2337 02:11:28.279 --> 02:11:30.640 The language is a magic. You can find them wherever 2338 02:11:30.680 --> 02:11:34.279 books are sold. The inter Traditions has very wide distribution, 2339 02:11:34.359 --> 02:11:37.520 so they should be easy to get hold, easy to order, 2340 02:11:37.600 --> 02:11:41.000 if not find in your favorite brick and mortar store. 2341 02:11:42.520 --> 02:11:45.239 Listen. Thank you so much again, Toby, and again for 2342 02:11:45.319 --> 02:11:46.880 the people who are listening that may not have heard 2343 02:11:46.920 --> 02:11:49.279 the first episode, definitely go check that one out. It 2344 02:11:49.399 --> 02:11:52.720 was just as good as this one. Thank you again Lisa, 2345 02:11:52.800 --> 02:11:55.279 jin Headless and Ricardo for coming on. That was awesome, 2346 02:11:55.520 --> 02:11:58.560 great questions. Again, this was a chat that went better 2347 02:11:58.560 --> 02:12:00.800 than I could have expected, you know, and thank you 2348 02:12:00.840 --> 02:12:03.520 everybody in the chat when awesome. A lot of great 2349 02:12:03.520 --> 02:12:05.600 stuff in there. People seem to really have been digging it. 2350 02:12:05.720 --> 02:12:08.560 That's what's up. I appreciate you all jumping in on 2351 02:12:08.600 --> 02:12:11.840 the live and until the next one, everybody be well 2352 02:12:12.439 --> 02:12:12.680 later