1
00:00:01,800 --> 00:00:05,599
Speaker 1: The following presentation isn't del Marvis Studio's production.

2
00:00:38,280 --> 00:00:41,880
Speaker 2: Welcome back treat seers from around the world. It's time

3
00:00:41,920 --> 00:00:46,320
for another edition of the Fact Hunter podcast. It's lunchtime

4
00:00:46,359 --> 00:00:49,719
here in the Mid Atlantic region on this Tuesday, April

5
00:00:49,759 --> 00:00:53,479
the twenty first, twenty twenty six. Hope everybody had a

6
00:00:53,520 --> 00:00:57,600
great weekend. You're doing well. Obviously, the news cycle continues

7
00:00:57,640 --> 00:01:02,880
to churn on peace deal, war, peace deal, war, inflation, inflation.

8
00:01:04,560 --> 00:01:07,439
They try to keep your mind worried and busy with

9
00:01:07,480 --> 00:01:10,319
all that nonsense. You know, I hope you have the

10
00:01:10,439 --> 00:01:13,280
armor of God on and you're just deflecting that nonsense away.

11
00:01:14,079 --> 00:01:16,480
But I hope you're well. Isn't it interesting how we've

12
00:01:16,519 --> 00:01:20,000
watered down our greetings to people. I mentioned this a

13
00:01:20,040 --> 00:01:22,879
few weeks ago. Right, You say to someone, hey, how

14
00:01:22,920 --> 00:01:25,200
are you? And they say fine, how are you?

15
00:01:25,560 --> 00:01:25,760
Speaker 1: Oh?

16
00:01:25,799 --> 00:01:27,400
Speaker 2: Great? Never had a bad day of my life, or

17
00:01:27,400 --> 00:01:30,040
whatever the case may be. When you see your neighbor,

18
00:01:30,079 --> 00:01:32,640
when you see your friend or a family member, you know,

19
00:01:32,879 --> 00:01:36,760
ask that with make it genuine and from your heart,

20
00:01:36,840 --> 00:01:40,680
how are you doing? Because I'll tell you there's a

21
00:01:40,680 --> 00:01:44,879
lot of people struggling. I met a family member in Wilmington.

22
00:01:44,959 --> 00:01:48,840
It's about an hour ten hour, fifteen minutes north of

23
00:01:48,879 --> 00:01:53,560
where I reside for a nice lunch on Saturday, and

24
00:01:53,680 --> 00:01:57,159
cruising up I ninety five and we got off on

25
00:01:57,239 --> 00:02:02,159
the Delaware Avenue exit and that there's just this huge

26
00:02:02,200 --> 00:02:07,120
homeless encampment and listen. I used to take that route

27
00:02:07,159 --> 00:02:10,319
to work every day when I worked for Chase Manhattan

28
00:02:10,360 --> 00:02:16,240
Bank in the late eighties and very early nineties. And

29
00:02:16,319 --> 00:02:19,000
here I am. I can't remember the last time I

30
00:02:19,159 --> 00:02:21,960
got off on that exit, but it had been a while,

31
00:02:22,159 --> 00:02:24,280
and just to see that it kind of broke my heart,

32
00:02:26,439 --> 00:02:29,319
it really did. There are people going through difficult times,

33
00:02:29,520 --> 00:02:34,479
so you know, pray for them. And speaking of difficult times,

34
00:02:35,919 --> 00:02:39,719
you know, I'm a very keep it down the middle guy.

35
00:02:40,120 --> 00:02:42,599
I don't try to get too high, I don't try

36
00:02:42,599 --> 00:02:47,560
to get too low, right, And last Wednesday was a

37
00:02:47,719 --> 00:02:51,199
very difficult day for me. Last week had a lot

38
00:02:51,199 --> 00:02:55,960
of hurdles to overcome, a lot of obstacles. You know,

39
00:02:57,439 --> 00:03:01,120
when you're invested in something and someone asked for ideas

40
00:03:01,319 --> 00:03:04,639
and you put in a lot of time and effort

41
00:03:04,800 --> 00:03:08,360
to come up with something to make a real difference,

42
00:03:08,439 --> 00:03:14,000
not just in people's lives, immediately, but in the community

43
00:03:14,759 --> 00:03:16,879
and to make a real impact and to have them

44
00:03:17,080 --> 00:03:23,879
just tossed aside with no reason, just pure laziness. People

45
00:03:23,919 --> 00:03:28,560
don't want to do extra things that cause extra work

46
00:03:28,960 --> 00:03:34,120
that benefit the good both physically and spiritually in people.

47
00:03:35,159 --> 00:03:41,000
I was really beat up and on the verge of

48
00:03:41,039 --> 00:03:43,879
tears coming home and called my wife, talked to her

49
00:03:44,039 --> 00:03:49,520
and the foundation, you know, the foundational people in my life.

50
00:03:49,560 --> 00:03:53,039
I called them and talked to them, and you know,

51
00:03:53,080 --> 00:03:55,120
you have to make a wholesale change in life. Sometimes

52
00:03:55,120 --> 00:03:58,800
that's not comfortable, and unfortunately, sometimes people put you in

53
00:04:00,000 --> 00:04:03,759
and enviable situations that you have to kind of withdraw

54
00:04:03,919 --> 00:04:06,759
your time and effort from. And either way you do it,

55
00:04:06,759 --> 00:04:09,599
you're kind of the bad guy. And that's the world

56
00:04:09,599 --> 00:04:14,960
we live in. Unfortunately. You know, when people's visions aren't

57
00:04:15,159 --> 00:04:20,680
aligning and it's something that you value is supremely important,

58
00:04:20,879 --> 00:04:25,120
then you have to do your own things. So you

59
00:04:25,160 --> 00:04:26,759
got to pray, You got to listen to God, and

60
00:04:27,360 --> 00:04:31,079
he makes those signs quite clear. You just have to

61
00:04:31,160 --> 00:04:35,040
be willing to listen. But the reason I'm mentioning this

62
00:04:35,160 --> 00:04:40,800
is how awesome our audience is. I came home from

63
00:04:40,839 --> 00:04:43,959
that thirty minute try from that meeting, and I sat

64
00:04:44,000 --> 00:04:48,000
down at my computer feeling bad about myself, logged on

65
00:04:48,240 --> 00:04:51,360
and there must have been seven or eight emails from

66
00:04:51,399 --> 00:04:56,639
our listeners just saying nice things like I really enjoyed

67
00:04:56,720 --> 00:05:00,720
last night's podcast, I like your conviction, got your book,

68
00:05:00,800 --> 00:05:04,199
thank you. I shared it with somebody, and it's amazing

69
00:05:04,240 --> 00:05:06,759
how God works. Really, because I was feeling bad for

70
00:05:06,879 --> 00:05:10,480
myself and opened my email, one of the gentlemen actually

71
00:05:11,079 --> 00:05:13,680
reached out to me on Facebook and sent me a long,

72
00:05:13,800 --> 00:05:16,639
heartfelt message, and I told him straight up, I was like,

73
00:05:17,360 --> 00:05:19,800
you know, what do you say kind things for people

74
00:05:19,839 --> 00:05:25,199
you don't understand sometimes what just a few kind words

75
00:05:25,240 --> 00:05:28,519
can mean to somebody you don't know. Even the guy

76
00:05:28,720 --> 00:05:32,040
you see at your office who's always walking around cracking

77
00:05:32,160 --> 00:05:36,079
jokes and making light of everything, he may very well

78
00:05:36,120 --> 00:05:40,399
be the guy who's going through the most and you'll

79
00:05:40,439 --> 00:05:43,839
be surprised how just a couple of kind words can

80
00:05:43,959 --> 00:05:49,720
change people's day. And for me, it was just the

81
00:05:49,800 --> 00:05:53,160
greatest and just thank you all, because you know, we're

82
00:05:53,240 --> 00:05:55,720
humans and we tend to only reach out when something's

83
00:05:55,759 --> 00:05:58,360
not right. When when we go to a restaurant we

84
00:05:58,439 --> 00:06:00,360
have a great meal. How often do we make sure

85
00:06:00,360 --> 00:06:03,360
we leave a five star review and say our server

86
00:06:03,560 --> 00:06:07,000
was fantastic and cordial and the food was great. It's

87
00:06:07,040 --> 00:06:09,319
usually when something doesn't go our way then we got

88
00:06:09,360 --> 00:06:12,399
to complain about it. So God bless you all. That

89
00:06:12,439 --> 00:06:15,040
meant a lot to me so much. It picked me

90
00:06:15,079 --> 00:06:17,639
back up, put me on the horse. I stopped feeling

91
00:06:17,720 --> 00:06:21,959
bad for myself, and I've made the necessary adjustments. I'm

92
00:06:21,959 --> 00:06:24,839
still kind of in the process, but my compass has

93
00:06:24,879 --> 00:06:31,639
been realigned and we're back in the saddle again. Today

94
00:06:31,839 --> 00:06:34,680
we're by the way. Please check us out Foundations and

95
00:06:34,759 --> 00:06:37,600
Faith dot net. We have our twenty four to seven

96
00:06:37,680 --> 00:06:43,839
streaming radio which simultaneously broadcasts our Thursday night eight pm

97
00:06:43,920 --> 00:06:47,759
broadcast on fifty nine to fifty Killer Hurts on WRMI

98
00:06:48,000 --> 00:06:52,560
Radio Miami International, and you can get the book there

99
00:06:52,600 --> 00:06:57,319
as well Foundations and Faith. So, you know, we have

100
00:06:57,560 --> 00:07:01,600
talked about Waco in Oklahoma City at nauseum on this

101
00:07:01,639 --> 00:07:05,959
podcast for many many years. It is something that we will,

102
00:07:06,360 --> 00:07:10,079
you know, continuously talk about as long as I continued

103
00:07:10,120 --> 00:07:13,439
to do this podcast. You know, there are some things

104
00:07:13,480 --> 00:07:18,000
that are very near and dear to me, obviously COVID,

105
00:07:18,560 --> 00:07:20,639
which is still something that we have the chance to

106
00:07:20,879 --> 00:07:28,399
ensure accountability happens. Oklahoma City, Waco, Ruby Ridge. I believe

107
00:07:28,439 --> 00:07:36,040
mister Randy passed recently. If I'm not mistaken, right, let

108
00:07:36,040 --> 00:07:38,439
me just double check myself in real time. But I

109
00:07:38,439 --> 00:07:43,600
feel like mister Weaver passed away a couple of years ago.

110
00:07:46,279 --> 00:07:49,399
Idaho what a beautiful state too. If you've never been there,

111
00:07:49,480 --> 00:07:51,319
you know, we had the chance to go up there

112
00:07:53,720 --> 00:07:58,040
when I was stationed at Fort Carson, Colorado. And yeah,

113
00:07:58,639 --> 00:08:03,600
Randy Weaver was a he was a factory worker in Iowa.

114
00:08:04,240 --> 00:08:07,639
He was an army veteran. Oh wow, it's been that long.

115
00:08:07,639 --> 00:08:12,680
It's been almost four years, twenty twenty two. My goodness, gracious.

116
00:08:13,079 --> 00:08:15,759
But even you know, going on talking about the things

117
00:08:15,759 --> 00:08:17,319
that are near and dear to my heart, you know,

118
00:08:17,480 --> 00:08:21,639
nine to eleven obviously the lies there and the things

119
00:08:21,680 --> 00:08:26,639
that bring about war. And I've said to a lot

120
00:08:26,639 --> 00:08:29,439
of people, a good way to wake people up, because

121
00:08:29,439 --> 00:08:31,279
there's still a lot of people within the church that

122
00:08:31,360 --> 00:08:34,960
want you to just pray for Team A or Team B. Right,

123
00:08:35,159 --> 00:08:37,360
And sometimes you got to sit people down and say, listen,

124
00:08:37,399 --> 00:08:39,440
you understand. In World War Two, you had a German

125
00:08:39,519 --> 00:08:43,039
soldier with a Bible in his cargo pocket and an

126
00:08:43,080 --> 00:08:46,759
American soldier with a Bible in his cargo pocket shooting

127
00:08:46,960 --> 00:08:50,480
at each other because they were told, you know, they

128
00:08:50,480 --> 00:08:53,240
hate each other. And again, if you have to be

129
00:08:53,440 --> 00:08:58,759
told to believe a certain way, you may want to

130
00:08:58,879 --> 00:09:03,360
step back and use your discernment. And that goes for

131
00:09:03,440 --> 00:09:06,480
everything in this world. If you're told to believe something

132
00:09:06,519 --> 00:09:09,080
that doesn't make sense, well then yeah, you should pull

133
00:09:09,120 --> 00:09:14,200
back and kind of think things through before just going

134
00:09:14,440 --> 00:09:18,360
along with the mainstream just to fit in. And there's

135
00:09:18,360 --> 00:09:20,639
a lot of conspiracies that people won't touch because that

136
00:09:20,679 --> 00:09:22,080
don't want to be that guy.

137
00:09:22,240 --> 00:09:22,480
Speaker 3: Right.

138
00:09:24,960 --> 00:09:27,399
Speaker 2: So many of the things we speak about goes back

139
00:09:27,399 --> 00:09:34,799
to the Chabad mafia, right, and Chabad Lubovich is something

140
00:09:34,799 --> 00:09:39,600
that we have spoken about on numerous occasions. Jared Kushner,

141
00:09:39,639 --> 00:09:41,759
Trump's son in law, his father was a big part

142
00:09:41,759 --> 00:09:45,159
of it. It's based a lot of it is on

143
00:09:45,279 --> 00:09:51,240
calendars and you know, Old Testament and sacrifice. That's the

144
00:09:51,279 --> 00:09:54,000
reason we still have all of this nonsense. But there's

145
00:09:54,000 --> 00:10:00,039
something called the Chabad calendar, right, the Jewish calendar that

146
00:10:00,080 --> 00:10:02,840
they used, And you know, I had thought about that

147
00:10:02,919 --> 00:10:06,279
because that's some of the history I've been looking at

148
00:10:06,720 --> 00:10:11,240
and I thought, let me go back to twenty eight

149
00:10:11,320 --> 00:10:15,480
Nissan fifty seven to fifty three, which in the Jewish

150
00:10:15,480 --> 00:10:20,320
calendar is associated with Monday, April nineteenth, nineteen ninety three,

151
00:10:21,159 --> 00:10:27,679
which is the day that Waco occurred. By the way, again,

152
00:10:27,720 --> 00:10:31,000
in the past we did Waco and Oklahoma City in

153
00:10:31,000 --> 00:10:33,519
the same week. I just don't have that time. Chickens

154
00:10:33,519 --> 00:10:36,240
come in this week. I'm in the last couple of

155
00:10:36,240 --> 00:10:38,919
weeks of the semester. I have huge papers that are due,

156
00:10:39,759 --> 00:10:42,039
a lot going on. So this week we're doing Waco.

157
00:10:42,159 --> 00:10:44,720
Next week we're doing Oklahoma City. So bear with if

158
00:10:44,759 --> 00:10:49,960
you would, but Jewish history, on that day, April nineteenth,

159
00:10:50,840 --> 00:10:55,799
Jericho's wall collapses, and if you remember that, the archaeological

160
00:10:55,799 --> 00:11:00,200
evidence indicates that ancient Jericho was heavily fortified, a city

161
00:11:00,360 --> 00:11:06,799
or a compound, and what was Waco a compound? Right? Interesting? Now, Also,

162
00:11:06,919 --> 00:11:12,559
the tour of reading for that day, Monday, April nineteenth,

163
00:11:12,679 --> 00:11:17,200
nineteen ninety three, according to the Chabad calendar, is Leviticus

164
00:11:17,320 --> 00:11:24,240
twelve one through Leviticus thirteen five, And if you look

165
00:11:24,279 --> 00:11:27,960
at verse four, it talks about and then she shall

166
00:11:28,000 --> 00:11:33,679
continue in the blood of her purifying three and thirty days.

167
00:11:34,399 --> 00:11:38,759
That's thirty three. It is very interesting how they look

168
00:11:38,759 --> 00:11:43,600
at the Torah, right, and that passage again, this is

169
00:11:43,679 --> 00:11:49,200
Leviticus twelve, verse one through thirteen five. That particular passage

170
00:11:49,240 --> 00:11:55,279
deals with purification, separation, the identification of uncleanliness, right, moving

171
00:11:55,320 --> 00:11:59,840
from childbirth to the inspection of disease, on and on.

172
00:12:00,279 --> 00:12:02,720
And if you set that beside, what happened at Waco.

173
00:12:03,799 --> 00:12:09,799
A group was surrounded, examined from outside, labeled right, they

174
00:12:09,799 --> 00:12:14,360
were labeled As soon as you know, the initial confrontation

175
00:12:14,559 --> 00:12:19,039
took place. They the Mockingbird News started parroting the same

176
00:12:19,159 --> 00:12:25,000
terms cults, crazy, and we who were walking zombies at

177
00:12:25,000 --> 00:12:27,480
that time, at least I was God bless you all

178
00:12:27,559 --> 00:12:30,320
who were born with the glasses on to see the

179
00:12:30,360 --> 00:12:34,000
world for how it is. I was so far gone

180
00:12:34,240 --> 00:12:37,159
when I was twenty two years That was ninety three.

181
00:12:37,200 --> 00:12:41,279
I was twenty four years old, But I do remember

182
00:12:41,320 --> 00:12:43,480
where I was at that day. I was a salesman,

183
00:12:44,480 --> 00:12:49,440
had the old you know, the TV with a rabbit

184
00:12:49,480 --> 00:12:53,159
ear antennas on, picking up a Philly station and just

185
00:12:53,320 --> 00:12:57,919
watching that building burn, knowing that that human beings were

186
00:12:57,960 --> 00:13:01,080
inside there and that to this day has stayed with me,

187
00:13:01,120 --> 00:13:08,440
and it's been how many years, thirty three years? And

188
00:13:08,559 --> 00:13:11,559
you look at Leviticus, which was their reading for that day,

189
00:13:11,600 --> 00:13:13,600
and I think this is intentional why they do these

190
00:13:13,600 --> 00:13:16,440
on this day? Right, it describes a system where the

191
00:13:16,480 --> 00:13:19,799
priest stands an authority to make these calls. And as

192
00:13:19,840 --> 00:13:22,200
I noted in my sub stack this morning, and yet

193
00:13:22,200 --> 00:13:25,840
it was not long and thorough as I have in

194
00:13:25,879 --> 00:13:28,440
the past. It's just I wanted to put the effort

195
00:13:28,480 --> 00:13:31,600
into the audio podcast versus the writing. I don't have

196
00:13:31,639 --> 00:13:34,000
the time to do everything right now. But you look

197
00:13:34,000 --> 00:13:39,399
at Waco, that roll shifts into federal power making determinations

198
00:13:39,440 --> 00:13:44,320
about threat, legitimacy, and action. And again we'll talk about it,

199
00:13:44,399 --> 00:13:48,000
but David Koresh was downtown all the time. They could

200
00:13:48,039 --> 00:13:51,639
have simply walked up to him and brought him in.

201
00:13:53,759 --> 00:13:56,759
Even the people when we moved down we lived thirty

202
00:13:56,840 --> 00:13:59,720
minutes from Waco for almost a decade, and still a

203
00:13:59,759 --> 00:14:03,639
lot of people it's been fifteen years since I first

204
00:14:03,679 --> 00:14:07,480
moved down there, but they still felt horrible for those people.

205
00:14:07,799 --> 00:14:08,000
Speaker 4: Right.

206
00:14:08,440 --> 00:14:11,200
Speaker 2: Sure, they may not have agreed with their way of living,

207
00:14:11,480 --> 00:14:15,000
but that doesn't give us the right to just obliviate

208
00:14:15,080 --> 00:14:19,120
these people, right, and that's what happened. You look at

209
00:14:19,159 --> 00:14:23,200
April nineteenth, nineteen ninety three, that falls within the passover cycle.

210
00:14:23,240 --> 00:14:26,559
And again, those folks are still waiting on their Messiah.

211
00:14:26,600 --> 00:14:30,399
Ours came two thousand years ago. They're still waiting on

212
00:14:30,399 --> 00:14:33,639
their false Messiah. They want to build another tabernacle so

213
00:14:33,679 --> 00:14:38,480
they can continue these sacrifices. Right, April nineteenth, nineteen ninety

214
00:14:38,480 --> 00:14:46,879
three fell within the passover cycle. Right Leviticus twelve, The

215
00:14:46,960 --> 00:14:51,879
number thirty three appears in that purification period, marking a

216
00:14:51,960 --> 00:14:57,320
defined span before the restoration is complete. And that number

217
00:14:57,320 --> 00:14:59,960
doesn't sit alone when you start looking at the patterns,

218
00:15:00,679 --> 00:15:04,919
it becomes part of a broader framework. Right. Then there's Jericho.

219
00:15:05,480 --> 00:15:08,200
The tradition that tied the fall of Jericho places it

220
00:15:08,279 --> 00:15:11,960
in the same seasonal window, with that seven day encirclement

221
00:15:12,519 --> 00:15:16,960
ending in a sudden collapse after the final signal. Is

222
00:15:17,000 --> 00:15:22,799
it mockery? Is it just recycled sacrifice?

223
00:15:23,000 --> 00:15:23,240
Speaker 1: Right?

224
00:15:23,960 --> 00:15:29,039
Speaker 2: Waco followed its own drawn out sequence days after standoff,

225
00:15:29,120 --> 00:15:34,799
pressure building negotiations until that final day April nineteenth, when

226
00:15:34,840 --> 00:15:41,159
everything happened. You know, very quickly, fire replaced the collapsing

227
00:15:41,159 --> 00:15:49,600
of the walls, but the structure is there. And when

228
00:15:49,600 --> 00:15:52,919
you bring it all together right with the purification laws,

229
00:15:53,039 --> 00:15:56,200
the appearance of the number thirty three, the Jericho timeline,

230
00:15:56,759 --> 00:15:59,080
and that April nineteenth date, which is known as the

231
00:15:59,080 --> 00:16:01,759
Feast of Moloch, you get more than just a coincidence

232
00:16:01,759 --> 00:16:07,039
on a calendar. And it's something that I think that

233
00:16:07,039 --> 00:16:10,279
that needs to be examined more often. And I'm I've

234
00:16:10,360 --> 00:16:14,759
just started my research into Oklahoma City and that date,

235
00:16:14,840 --> 00:16:20,320
and there are some ties connected there as well, but

236
00:16:20,440 --> 00:16:26,200
it's going to take again a little more research. I've

237
00:16:26,240 --> 00:16:29,360
read this article before on this day and I think

238
00:16:29,399 --> 00:16:33,200
I'm going to do that again today. We've covered it

239
00:16:33,240 --> 00:16:37,519
again at nauseum for several years, but some of the

240
00:16:38,000 --> 00:16:42,360
big points needs to be pointed out. But I'll just

241
00:16:42,399 --> 00:16:45,000
tell you this isn't going to be a three hour,

242
00:16:46,879 --> 00:16:50,399
you know podcast, It's just not going to But we're

243
00:16:50,399 --> 00:16:53,759
going to go back to the founding of the Branch Davidians.

244
00:16:54,039 --> 00:16:59,039
Gentleman by the name of Victor Hutef he left the

245
00:16:59,200 --> 00:17:02,559
Orthodox Church of Bulgaria to join the Seventh Day Adventists.

246
00:17:02,559 --> 00:17:06,839
By the way, this was written by Dean Kelly in

247
00:17:06,920 --> 00:17:11,279
May of nineteen ninety five, So in nineteen twenty nine

248
00:17:11,319 --> 00:17:18,799
he moved to California. Mister Hutef, though not approved by

249
00:17:18,799 --> 00:17:21,279
the main body of the Seventh Day Adventist, he gained

250
00:17:21,279 --> 00:17:24,480
a following with his preaching. He and his followers moved

251
00:17:24,519 --> 00:17:27,759
to Texas in nineteen thirty five. They founded a community

252
00:17:27,960 --> 00:17:33,720
called Mount Caramel in order to follow Hutef's teachings without

253
00:17:33,799 --> 00:17:39,480
distraction from their neighbors and the mainstream society. Right Allah,

254
00:17:39,680 --> 00:17:42,799
they amish, We're just going to detach ourselves into this

255
00:17:42,880 --> 00:17:46,200
small area. Whutef died in nineteen fifty five without seeing

256
00:17:46,240 --> 00:17:48,680
the coming of the millennium that he had preached. And

257
00:17:48,720 --> 00:17:50,920
that is one thing with the Davidians that were very

258
00:17:50,920 --> 00:17:57,400
big into eschatology and times right all the prophetic books

259
00:17:57,400 --> 00:18:02,599
of the Bible. His wife Laurence succeeded him as leader

260
00:18:02,640 --> 00:18:06,079
of the group, which called itself the Davidian Seventh Day Venist.

261
00:18:06,599 --> 00:18:10,240
They announced a new air would begin on April twenty second,

262
00:18:11,279 --> 00:18:14,839
nineteen fifty nine. That's interesting that timeline, and there were

263
00:18:14,880 --> 00:18:18,200
about nine hundred people across the country. They sold their homes.

264
00:18:18,680 --> 00:18:23,640
They moved him out Caramel near Waco to await the end. Now,

265
00:18:24,680 --> 00:18:30,480
according to some it did become a considerable burden on

266
00:18:30,640 --> 00:18:34,440
the public welfare program of mcclannan County, which is the

267
00:18:34,480 --> 00:18:40,319
county in which Waco exists. So again, when the date

268
00:18:40,799 --> 00:18:45,000
come and went, nothing happened. Many of the disappointed adherein

269
00:18:45,079 --> 00:18:50,920
strifted away. And if you're following someone on YouTube or

270
00:18:51,640 --> 00:18:56,000
wherever and they are telling you a certain date, that

271
00:18:56,319 --> 00:19:00,759
is the number one reason to click that un subscribe

272
00:19:01,240 --> 00:19:04,400
or delete or power off button. Okay, nobody knows a

273
00:19:04,440 --> 00:19:07,960
time or date. Now, there was about fifty people who remained,

274
00:19:08,720 --> 00:19:11,000
but they moved to the new Mount Caramel, about ten

275
00:19:11,039 --> 00:19:15,559
miles from Waco. And that's when the leadership devolved on

276
00:19:15,599 --> 00:19:19,079
a gentleman named Ben Rodin, who called his following the

277
00:19:19,079 --> 00:19:23,720
Branch Davidians to distinguish it from another group that had

278
00:19:23,720 --> 00:19:28,759
continued the Plane Davidian Strand. And after his death, his

279
00:19:28,839 --> 00:19:32,079
wife Lois had led the group, traveling and meeting with

280
00:19:32,160 --> 00:19:35,680
foreign heads of state in the effort to spread the message,

281
00:19:35,720 --> 00:19:38,240
And after her death a struggle took place between her

282
00:19:38,240 --> 00:19:43,200
son George and a relative newcomer to the group by

283
00:19:43,200 --> 00:19:48,119
the name of Vernon Howell. Now she actually had favored

284
00:19:48,200 --> 00:19:51,440
Vernon as her successor, but George remained in control of

285
00:19:51,440 --> 00:19:56,279
the colony. So Vernon moved to Palestine, Texas, taking with

286
00:19:56,440 --> 00:20:00,720
him those among the faithful who accepted him rather than George,

287
00:20:00,759 --> 00:20:06,000
as their profit. Whether moving to Palestine or maybe it's

288
00:20:06,079 --> 00:20:11,079
pronounced Palestine like it is in Ohio, I'm not immediately

289
00:20:11,160 --> 00:20:13,279
sure of that. I'm sure somebody will send me in

290
00:20:13,319 --> 00:20:17,279
the email explaining that to me. George challenged Vernon to

291
00:20:17,400 --> 00:20:21,160
a duel. Man, I haven't seen a good duel in

292
00:20:21,200 --> 00:20:24,799
a while, have you? Nineteen eighty seven to prove which

293
00:20:24,880 --> 00:20:28,079
was the true profit now. The form of the duel

294
00:20:28,200 --> 00:20:30,920
was to see who could bring back a long dead

295
00:20:31,039 --> 00:20:36,599
Davidian whose casket was exhumed by Rodin. Now How declined

296
00:20:36,599 --> 00:20:39,440
the challenge and complained to the authorities about the exhumation.

297
00:20:40,440 --> 00:20:43,960
When they demanded proof, Howl and seven armed followers stole

298
00:20:44,119 --> 00:20:49,079
into the Mount Carmel premises to photograph the coffin. Rodin

299
00:20:49,160 --> 00:20:54,519
caught them. A gunfight ended up breaking out. In all

300
00:20:54,640 --> 00:20:59,039
of the eight Branch Davidians were tried for attempted murder,

301
00:21:00,240 --> 00:21:04,319
Seven were acquitted, and How's trial ended in a hung

302
00:21:04,440 --> 00:21:09,880
jury and he was never retried. George Roden didn't prosper

303
00:21:09,960 --> 00:21:13,640
Mount Carmel. He lost most of his followers went to debt.

304
00:21:14,160 --> 00:21:18,359
He rented out some of the ramshackle buildings to Nondavidian tenants,

305
00:21:19,200 --> 00:21:23,799
including two drug traffickers. Roden would be jailed for six

306
00:21:23,880 --> 00:21:27,960
months for writing threatening letters to a judge not a

307
00:21:27,960 --> 00:21:32,960
good idea, and during that time how gained the title

308
00:21:33,000 --> 00:21:36,480
to Mount Carmel by paying off sixteen years of delinquent taxes.

309
00:21:37,440 --> 00:21:39,839
In nineteen eighty nine, Roden murdered a man with an

310
00:21:40,000 --> 00:21:45,039
ax and was committed to a mental institution, where he remained,

311
00:21:46,319 --> 00:21:49,119
though he did escape briefly in nineteen ninety three, and

312
00:21:49,240 --> 00:21:53,319
How's followers, in apprehension that Rodin would return to attack them,

313
00:21:53,799 --> 00:22:01,119
they maintained an armed vigilance against that threat. So now

314
00:22:01,160 --> 00:22:06,559
we're in early nineteen ninety. Vernon Howe legally changed his

315
00:22:06,680 --> 00:22:11,799
name to David Koresh, after the Hebrew King David and

316
00:22:11,920 --> 00:22:18,440
the Persian king Cyrus, who freed the Jews from Babylonian captivity.

317
00:22:18,519 --> 00:22:21,880
He was not the first to choose the letter the

318
00:22:21,960 --> 00:22:25,880
latter name, pardon me. In eighteen sixty nine, Cyrus Teed

319
00:22:26,680 --> 00:22:30,039
changed his name to Koresh. Taught that he was the

320
00:22:30,079 --> 00:22:33,440
Messiah and wrote commentaries on the Seven Seals of the

321
00:22:33,440 --> 00:22:38,119
Book of Revelation. He drew a following of Kureshians, but

322
00:22:38,160 --> 00:22:40,359
he actually was killed in Florida in nineteen oh six

323
00:22:40,440 --> 00:22:44,880
during a violent encounter with a marshal. When Howell joined

324
00:22:44,920 --> 00:22:48,240
the Branch Davidians in nineteen eighty one, he was not

325
00:22:48,440 --> 00:22:54,079
a prepossessing figure. He was dyslexic, he had a stutter,

326
00:22:54,319 --> 00:22:58,160
a high school dropout. He was really obsessed with his cars.

327
00:22:58,200 --> 00:23:01,640
We talked about that in prior episodes, guns, and of

328
00:23:01,680 --> 00:23:08,119
course his rock music. He loved playing guitar. He was

329
00:23:08,160 --> 00:23:13,640
described by one commentator as a tearful, insecure, pesky young man.

330
00:23:15,000 --> 00:23:20,640
He was very intelligent. He was articulate, He was mechanically adept.

331
00:23:20,680 --> 00:23:25,160
He had a memory. He could just call off verses

332
00:23:25,880 --> 00:23:29,240
just right, off right. Some people are like that, just

333
00:23:29,359 --> 00:23:35,759
they can memorize every verse. It's something. Now. Sometime during

334
00:23:35,759 --> 00:23:38,359
the mid nineteen eighties, the finger of God touched him

335
00:23:39,079 --> 00:23:41,680
and within a few years he had matured. He lost

336
00:23:41,680 --> 00:23:45,240
his speech defect and shown an amazing ability to enlist

337
00:23:45,279 --> 00:23:48,920
followers attracted to his Bible based vision and his ability

338
00:23:48,920 --> 00:23:54,880
to articulate it. You know, how he overcame that. You know,

339
00:23:55,079 --> 00:23:59,519
maybe there was a brief time where he was faithful

340
00:23:59,519 --> 00:24:02,599
to g You can't call yourself the messiah. You can't

341
00:24:02,640 --> 00:24:07,599
appoint yourself as the Messiah. Obviously, defending the burning down

342
00:24:07,759 --> 00:24:11,559
of this entire compound of women and children and men

343
00:24:13,200 --> 00:24:18,039
doesn't mean you're defending the person itself. A government cannot

344
00:24:18,160 --> 00:24:23,400
just wipe out, and the correct word would be sacrifice.

345
00:24:23,599 --> 00:24:30,200
You know, just dozens and dozens of people in a

346
00:24:30,240 --> 00:24:32,519
time when they could have simply walked into town and

347
00:24:32,599 --> 00:24:37,279
arrested him. So again, he became to be quite the

348
00:24:37,680 --> 00:24:41,480
wordsmith and the talker. They said he could have sold

349
00:24:41,599 --> 00:24:44,960
ice to an Eskimo, right. He was persuasive with his

350
00:24:45,079 --> 00:24:48,319
message so much that he started to draw converts, now

351
00:24:48,599 --> 00:24:52,480
mostly those who were already Seventh day at Venists, but

352
00:24:52,519 --> 00:24:57,559
they came from many states and foreign countries. Remember there

353
00:24:57,599 --> 00:25:00,000
was no Internet back then. It's not like they could

354
00:25:00,200 --> 00:25:02,880
just go on zoom and meet with like minded people

355
00:25:02,880 --> 00:25:06,720
from around the world. People's faith means a lot to them.

356
00:25:06,759 --> 00:25:13,119
There are pastors in Kalispell, Montana. There are pastors in Jacksonville, Florida,

357
00:25:13,599 --> 00:25:16,480
who mean so much to people they are willing to

358
00:25:16,599 --> 00:25:19,039
pack up their stuff and go to be a part

359
00:25:19,079 --> 00:25:22,559
of that congregation. You know, if people are willing to

360
00:25:22,599 --> 00:25:27,559
move for a job, why wouldn't people want to move

361
00:25:27,960 --> 00:25:30,880
you know, which that job brings financial security? Why would

362
00:25:30,880 --> 00:25:32,759
you not want to move for something that you believe

363
00:25:32,799 --> 00:25:38,000
brings you, you know, that spiritual stability. And there are

364
00:25:38,200 --> 00:25:41,799
a lot of people doing that. They're realizing where we

365
00:25:41,839 --> 00:25:44,480
are in the timeline, and they will do whatever they

366
00:25:44,519 --> 00:25:50,519
can to find a true church. Not one of these dispensationalists,

367
00:25:50,640 --> 00:25:52,960
not one of these not you know, they're afraid to

368
00:25:53,000 --> 00:25:56,039
point out sin, they're afraid to point out hell. They

369
00:25:56,079 --> 00:25:57,680
just want you to show up for an hour, give

370
00:25:57,680 --> 00:26:00,119
you a feel good message, make sure you give your money,

371
00:26:01,039 --> 00:26:02,880
and then we'll see you next week. They don't want

372
00:26:02,880 --> 00:26:05,559
to go into the community and help the poor. They

373
00:26:05,559 --> 00:26:08,000
don't want to clothe people, they don't want to feed people.

374
00:26:08,319 --> 00:26:10,720
They don't want to go up to a stranger. Right,

375
00:26:11,640 --> 00:26:15,079
that's the substack I wrote last week. If you're walking

376
00:26:15,119 --> 00:26:17,519
by a house and you see it on fire, ninety

377
00:26:17,599 --> 00:26:19,519
nine percent of you are going to do whatever you

378
00:26:19,559 --> 00:26:22,319
can within your power to get them out of that

379
00:26:22,480 --> 00:26:26,839
burning flame. Well, if you know a friend, a family,

380
00:26:26,880 --> 00:26:30,599
member that is headed toward that flame. Why aren't you

381
00:26:30,680 --> 00:26:34,880
doing whatever you can to pull them out? Back to

382
00:26:34,920 --> 00:26:38,680
the podcast, David krush inherited a millennial view from Hutef

383
00:26:38,839 --> 00:26:42,960
and the Rodents, along with their authoritarian style of leadership.

384
00:26:43,640 --> 00:26:49,079
His message was focused on the decoding of cryptic apocalyptic passages. Right.

385
00:26:49,160 --> 00:26:51,920
He was always talking about the Seven Seals in the

386
00:26:51,920 --> 00:26:55,920
Book of Revelation. He understood it better than anyone else,

387
00:26:56,039 --> 00:27:02,480
That's what he said, right. And he presented that that

388
00:27:02,519 --> 00:27:07,720
the Lamb, you know, the forces of evil would be

389
00:27:07,839 --> 00:27:12,759
concentrated in the present center of earthly power. Right, that

390
00:27:13,000 --> 00:27:17,359
government of the United States is that Babylonian might who

391
00:27:17,359 --> 00:27:20,640
would be brought to bear against the Lamb and his

392
00:27:20,720 --> 00:27:24,279
elect But the Lamb wasn't going to submit meekly to

393
00:27:24,319 --> 00:27:27,640
the Babylonians. That was his viewpoint, right, The battle of

394
00:27:27,759 --> 00:27:31,799
Armageddon must be waged with maximum effort by the faithful

395
00:27:32,119 --> 00:27:35,799
to draw the heavenly host and bring the City of God.

396
00:27:36,400 --> 00:27:40,319
And to that end, how accumulated arms for his followers.

397
00:27:40,319 --> 00:27:42,039
And that's how they ended up making their money going

398
00:27:42,039 --> 00:27:46,039
to gun shows. That's how they were able to provide

399
00:27:46,079 --> 00:27:52,519
substance to their families and their quote unquote followers, and

400
00:27:52,799 --> 00:27:58,079
again Texas, especially back then in the nineties gun ownership. Listen,

401
00:27:58,160 --> 00:28:02,559
even when I live there, people have their shotguns on

402
00:28:02,599 --> 00:28:05,160
their gun racks in their truck, They're walking with their

403
00:28:05,200 --> 00:28:10,720
guns on their holsters around. That's you know. People have

404
00:28:10,759 --> 00:28:14,319
a right to defend themselves against evil. He was stimulated

405
00:28:14,319 --> 00:28:17,799
in that endeavor by a curious and unseemingly event which

406
00:28:18,720 --> 00:28:22,119
was described in the chronology of a post mortem report

407
00:28:22,480 --> 00:28:28,319
by the US Treasury Department. As follows local law enforcement.

408
00:28:28,559 --> 00:28:31,799
This was from March of ninety two, local law enforcement

409
00:28:32,599 --> 00:28:37,519
conducts SWAT training near Mark Mount Caramel. Pardon me, David

410
00:28:37,599 --> 00:28:41,759
Koresh reacts by bringing back members from California and Engling,

411
00:28:42,599 --> 00:28:47,200
making large purchases of weapons parts, acquiring chemicals which can

412
00:28:47,240 --> 00:28:52,519
be used to make explosives, purchasing envgs, night vision glasses,

413
00:28:52,640 --> 00:28:58,839
night vision scopes, sensors, and then accumulating large supplies of ammunition.

414
00:28:59,359 --> 00:29:03,920
So here's the thing. They intentionally in March of ninety

415
00:29:03,920 --> 00:29:07,519
two held a large training event next to them, so

416
00:29:07,559 --> 00:29:10,440
they felt threatened. So what did they do? Well, they

417
00:29:10,519 --> 00:29:14,720
armed themselves. They saw this three day episode with an

418
00:29:14,799 --> 00:29:19,480
ear range of Mount Caramel as brazen intimidation by the Babylonians.

419
00:29:19,519 --> 00:29:23,480
That was their perspective, and he responded with what he

420
00:29:23,599 --> 00:29:29,200
deemed was strong defensive measures, and then that in turn

421
00:29:29,920 --> 00:29:32,920
brought him to the attention of federal authority. So it

422
00:29:33,039 --> 00:29:38,200
was this escalation back and forth, which again started with

423
00:29:38,880 --> 00:29:44,519
the obvious, without a doubt, obvious brazen intimidation of the

424
00:29:45,759 --> 00:29:51,440
local law enforcement in the swat teams. Listen, just south

425
00:29:51,480 --> 00:29:55,400
of there is it, I'm trying to think on the map,

426
00:29:55,480 --> 00:29:58,960
is it southeast Fort Hood Is? They could have trained

427
00:29:58,960 --> 00:30:02,400
there easily without a doubt. But one of the other

428
00:30:02,440 --> 00:30:04,720
features of the teaching of Koresh was pertinent to the

429
00:30:04,759 --> 00:30:10,240
unfolding of events. You know, there were certain Bible passages

430
00:30:10,279 --> 00:30:15,480
that he clunged to, especially the forty fifth Psalm, the

431
00:30:15,480 --> 00:30:18,720
implication that the Lamb should be united with the king's daughters,

432
00:30:19,119 --> 00:30:24,799
honorable women, the virgins, to beget children who thou miss

433
00:30:25,880 --> 00:30:29,960
make princes in all the earth. So his understanding, which

434
00:30:30,000 --> 00:30:33,079
came to be shared by his followers, was that only

435
00:30:33,200 --> 00:30:36,079
the seed of the Lamb was pure, and that Lamb

436
00:30:36,079 --> 00:30:38,920
alone should be get the children who would rule the

437
00:30:38,960 --> 00:30:42,680
world in the coming age. Now again, you have to

438
00:30:42,759 --> 00:30:47,240
understand that somewhere between what we're told and what we

439
00:30:47,359 --> 00:30:51,640
believe is the truth. To what extent did this guy

440
00:30:51,720 --> 00:30:54,599
believe he was the Lamb, he was the Messiah? Or

441
00:30:54,640 --> 00:30:59,119
was he someone who was just maybe an extreme Seventh

442
00:30:59,160 --> 00:31:02,359
day at ventist who just wanted to be left alone.

443
00:31:02,960 --> 00:31:06,359
I think I say this all the time. One extreme

444
00:31:06,440 --> 00:31:12,359
begets another extreme, and that just keeps trying to outdo

445
00:31:12,440 --> 00:31:14,799
each other until it gets to a point where it explodes.

446
00:31:16,599 --> 00:31:20,000
And with all that going on, right, what was Koresh?

447
00:31:20,000 --> 00:31:22,759
She was the father of what twelve children at least

448
00:31:23,480 --> 00:31:26,960
And of course when the government started getting hold of

449
00:31:27,000 --> 00:31:31,480
the story, they start portraying it out. Obviously, there was

450
00:31:31,559 --> 00:31:37,000
criticism from the outsiders. There was a nine week investigation

451
00:31:37,279 --> 00:31:41,039
just the year before ninety two by the Texas Bureau

452
00:31:41,079 --> 00:31:43,920
of CPS, which, let's be honest with each other. We've

453
00:31:43,920 --> 00:31:49,400
had people on this podcast. You have exposed the system. Again.

454
00:31:49,599 --> 00:31:53,799
Not every person who works for CPS is bad. Most

455
00:31:53,839 --> 00:31:59,200
people are just trying to save children in bad situations. However,

456
00:31:59,400 --> 00:32:03,319
coma the system can be corrupted. We've seen it right,

457
00:32:04,119 --> 00:32:07,440
So again, a nine week investigation in nineteen ninety two

458
00:32:07,480 --> 00:32:12,599
by the Texas Bureau of CPS found zero evidence of

459
00:32:12,720 --> 00:32:19,279
child abuse. Discipline of children did not appear to have

460
00:32:19,319 --> 00:32:22,960
been strict at Mount Caramel, and Koresh did sometimes paddle

461
00:32:23,000 --> 00:32:26,319
the children. I got my butt whooped when I was

462
00:32:26,359 --> 00:32:31,680
a child in the seventies, maybe the very very early eighties. Right,

463
00:32:32,119 --> 00:32:34,759
you heard that the closet open up and the belts jingle.

464
00:32:35,079 --> 00:32:38,640
Oh what did I do? But the children who were

465
00:32:38,640 --> 00:32:41,359
examined by the Texas authorities were found to be healthy,

466
00:32:41,480 --> 00:32:45,680
They were well adjusted, they weren't traumatized, they were educated,

467
00:32:46,160 --> 00:32:50,359
they could speak well. There was a Remember those who

468
00:32:50,400 --> 00:32:54,480
were pictured on the videotape with Koresh made during the siege,

469
00:32:54,680 --> 00:32:57,279
During the siege when most of our children from today

470
00:32:57,319 --> 00:33:01,640
would be just traumatized, they were very fond of him

471
00:33:02,480 --> 00:33:08,559
and very inapprehensive, to be honest with you. Now, new

472
00:33:08,599 --> 00:33:16,519
religious movements often have unconventional marital arrangements, right, the complex

473
00:33:16,640 --> 00:33:27,519
marriage Utah all around the world. Right. Whatever the arrangements

474
00:33:27,559 --> 00:33:31,960
were at Mount Caramel, they were part of a project

475
00:33:32,079 --> 00:33:38,400
of soteriological procreation, which was used by that term was

476
00:33:38,480 --> 00:33:43,200
used by Lawrence Sullivan, one of the government's chosen commentators

477
00:33:43,960 --> 00:33:49,079
towards Smith. The federal reports about Waco, because remember immediately

478
00:33:49,119 --> 00:33:53,680
after this it was a cya everybody for themselves, Reno

479
00:33:53,920 --> 00:33:59,400
Clinton and everybody else at the ATF, the FBI and

480
00:33:59,480 --> 00:34:02,599
all of that, they all went into self protection mode.

481
00:34:02,640 --> 00:34:11,119
No one was held accountable. Right, So again it was

482
00:34:11,119 --> 00:34:15,760
a collective project, joined in by the religious community. It

483
00:34:15,800 --> 00:34:20,679
was an undertaking the treasure husband and disseminate the pure seed,

484
00:34:20,719 --> 00:34:23,519
as he said, as a precious resource for raising up

485
00:34:23,559 --> 00:34:27,239
the airs of a new kingdom. Now is the branch

486
00:34:27,400 --> 00:34:31,039
a pardon me? As the government told the story in retrospect,

487
00:34:31,639 --> 00:34:34,280
its attention was drawn to the Branch Davidians near Waco

488
00:34:34,360 --> 00:34:37,360
in May of ninety two. And I think most of

489
00:34:37,360 --> 00:34:40,079
you remember this from the movie, right. There was a

490
00:34:40,159 --> 00:34:44,119
ups driver. He reported that a carton for delivery to

491
00:34:44,159 --> 00:34:48,679
Mount Caramel had broken open, wink wink, to reveal a

492
00:34:48,800 --> 00:34:54,559
shipment of inert hand grenades. That incident was reported to

493
00:34:54,679 --> 00:34:59,800
the Sheriff's office, which notified the office of the at

494
00:35:00,679 --> 00:35:05,440
in Austin, which is about a little less than two

495
00:35:05,480 --> 00:35:08,719
hours away. Because we were right between Austin and Waco,

496
00:35:08,800 --> 00:35:11,559
it was about thirty five minutes to Waco from we

497
00:35:11,559 --> 00:35:14,039
were in the Temple Colleen area. And then it was

498
00:35:14,079 --> 00:35:19,320
an hour south to Austin's probably ninety five minutes from

499
00:35:19,440 --> 00:35:25,480
Waco to Austin. An agent named DAVEY Aguilero was assigned

500
00:35:25,519 --> 00:35:30,400
to investigate. By tracing ups invoices, he compiled a list

501
00:35:30,480 --> 00:35:34,719
of forty three thousand dollars worth of guns, gun parts, kits,

502
00:35:34,800 --> 00:35:40,199
grenade halls, black powder, et cetera. He contacted former members

503
00:35:40,199 --> 00:35:43,800
of the religious group for information about his activities and

504
00:35:43,840 --> 00:35:46,599
then would end up writing a report in which allegations

505
00:35:46,639 --> 00:35:51,199
once again of child abuse figured prominently right, even though

506
00:35:51,280 --> 00:35:56,280
they'd already had a nine week investigation. So were these people,

507
00:35:56,800 --> 00:35:58,880
did they have a falling out with David Koresh And

508
00:35:58,920 --> 00:36:01,639
were they encouraged by the FBI to say these things

509
00:36:01,719 --> 00:36:11,519
to give them justification to move in again nine week investigation? Now,

510
00:36:12,519 --> 00:36:16,920
the agency's interests lagged until about mid ninety two. There

511
00:36:16,960 --> 00:36:22,679
was a television program on sexual harassment within the ATF

512
00:36:23,679 --> 00:36:31,840
and if you remember, this threatened the agency's existence. There

513
00:36:31,960 --> 00:36:34,960
was a TV show in I think it was June

514
00:36:34,960 --> 00:36:40,440
of ninety two, and there was this mass sexual harassment

515
00:36:42,800 --> 00:36:48,639
investigation going on, and they were afraid this was going

516
00:36:48,679 --> 00:36:53,559
to impair the agency's prospects at the Congressional budget hearings

517
00:36:53,559 --> 00:36:56,639
that just happened to take place in March of nineteen

518
00:36:56,719 --> 00:37:01,679
ninety three. So the head of the ATF said, we

519
00:37:01,719 --> 00:37:04,000
need some kind of good press. We need to get

520
00:37:04,000 --> 00:37:12,599
the people behind us. Right when George H. W. Bush

521
00:37:12,880 --> 00:37:15,880
Oh Poppy, he didn't get the backing of the people.

522
00:37:16,440 --> 00:37:19,320
During Desert Storm, he had to pull out that fifteen

523
00:37:19,360 --> 00:37:23,760
year old girl, Naiir Al Sabah to claim that the

524
00:37:23,800 --> 00:37:28,159
Iraqi soldiers were throwing babies out of incubators. We had

525
00:37:28,159 --> 00:37:29,840
to send our young men and women over there to

526
00:37:29,880 --> 00:37:34,360
save them. And then October ninety two, sixty minutes or nightline.

527
00:37:34,440 --> 00:37:38,800
It was nightline? Is that all? It turned out? She

528
00:37:39,000 --> 00:37:42,800
was the daughter of the ambassador to Kuwait in the

529
00:37:42,880 --> 00:37:45,079
United States. She hadn't even been in Kwait in years,

530
00:37:46,559 --> 00:37:50,320
and she was They paid a talent agency ten million

531
00:37:50,360 --> 00:37:52,199
dollars to coach her as she sat in front of

532
00:37:52,239 --> 00:37:55,000
that congressional hearing that sense and made a lot of

533
00:37:55,000 --> 00:37:57,079
people sick. My father had to retire in ninety four

534
00:37:57,119 --> 00:37:59,280
from the Post office he was so sick from Desert

535
00:37:59,360 --> 00:38:04,960
storm syndrome. He was the first speaker of the Desert

536
00:38:04,960 --> 00:38:08,400
Storm Investigation in August of ninety five on c SPAN.

537
00:38:08,480 --> 00:38:11,199
I still have the seven minute and thirty second clip

538
00:38:11,960 --> 00:38:17,039
him speaking, that's how our government takes care of us.

539
00:38:19,199 --> 00:38:22,800
And you know, God forbid a government agency doesn't get

540
00:38:22,840 --> 00:38:24,960
its contract. Well, what are we going to do to

541
00:38:25,000 --> 00:38:27,840
make ourselves look better? We have to do something. We

542
00:38:27,880 --> 00:38:31,119
need some good press. Hey, what's going on down there

543
00:38:31,119 --> 00:38:37,719
in Waco. So when the fall into the winter of

544
00:38:37,800 --> 00:38:41,519
ninety two, the agency began to plan a major rate

545
00:38:41,559 --> 00:38:45,679
on the Branch Davidians. They worked hard to get to

546
00:38:45,719 --> 00:38:48,679
gain a warrant for the arrest of one Vernon Halle,

547
00:38:48,719 --> 00:38:54,639
who was downtown all the time all the time. They

548
00:38:54,719 --> 00:38:59,639
wanted to search his property for illegal firearms. And then,

549
00:39:00,039 --> 00:39:03,199
after assembling a large number of agents and they did

550
00:39:03,719 --> 00:39:07,800
rehearse for several days, the ATF launched its rad on

551
00:39:08,199 --> 00:39:12,760
Sunday morning. Right. That's what they tell you in when

552
00:39:12,800 --> 00:39:16,159
you're in whether it's war college, as a senior officer,

553
00:39:16,719 --> 00:39:19,519
any historian knows, if you're going to attack the enemy,

554
00:39:20,039 --> 00:39:25,159
you do it on Sunday morning. It's not so much

555
00:39:26,840 --> 00:39:30,239
the spiritual side of things. It's the known one day

556
00:39:30,280 --> 00:39:32,920
week when most people don't get up early in the morning,

557
00:39:34,440 --> 00:39:36,960
that's what they say, right, That's when Pearl Harbor was

558
00:39:37,000 --> 00:39:41,880
Sunday morning, right, And that's what they did. They launched

559
00:39:41,920 --> 00:39:45,119
it's raid on a Sunday morning, February twentyeighth, nineteen ninety three.

560
00:39:45,800 --> 00:39:49,800
And it was described as a dynamic entry dynamic meaning

561
00:39:49,960 --> 00:39:58,000
just multiple facets to the attack. It was impaired. These

562
00:39:58,039 --> 00:40:03,760
guys were well armed, they went to the range, they

563
00:40:03,760 --> 00:40:13,239
could shoot, They were very they knew their tactics. They

564
00:40:13,239 --> 00:40:16,639
lost their element of surprise as well. So on the

565
00:40:16,639 --> 00:40:20,360
morning of the raide, several converging lines moving toward the house.

566
00:40:20,480 --> 00:40:23,880
There was a mile long convoy, a mile long convoy

567
00:40:24,440 --> 00:40:28,000
of eighty government vehicles with their headlights on, including two

568
00:40:28,079 --> 00:40:33,880
covered cattle trailers containing over seventy agents in full swat gear.

569
00:40:34,760 --> 00:40:38,280
And they reached the staging area at Bellmead on the

570
00:40:38,360 --> 00:40:41,159
edge of Waco at seven thirty am. When you see

571
00:40:41,159 --> 00:40:45,639
something like that, if you live in Kansas City and

572
00:40:45,719 --> 00:40:49,000
you're at the whatever grocery store that everybody goes to,

573
00:40:49,360 --> 00:40:54,480
and you see seventy vehicles go by, up armored swat

574
00:40:54,559 --> 00:40:58,440
vehicles go by, your text and all your friends, hey,

575
00:40:58,679 --> 00:41:02,239
what's going on. Back then, they were calling each other

576
00:41:02,880 --> 00:41:06,880
running to the payphone, Hey, what's going on. There were

577
00:41:06,880 --> 00:41:11,360
two helicopters that were supplied by the Texas National Guard.

578
00:41:12,800 --> 00:41:17,280
Robert Rodriguez, an undercover ATF agent who had infiltrated the Davidians.

579
00:41:17,639 --> 00:41:20,239
But they suspected him, they knew he was a plant.

580
00:41:22,280 --> 00:41:25,000
He entered the residents to join them during the morning

581
00:41:25,079 --> 00:41:28,199
Bible study. Isn't that something? And again they say, well,

582
00:41:28,199 --> 00:41:30,400
we did it on Sunday morning because that's the war.

583
00:41:30,480 --> 00:41:34,119
Colleges and they all say, that's when you attack the enemy. Right, Well,

584
00:41:34,119 --> 00:41:38,239
it's a shame number one that you perceive American citizens

585
00:41:38,440 --> 00:41:41,719
azure enemy, right number two to do it during Sunday

586
00:41:41,760 --> 00:41:47,199
morning during Bible study. Again, mockery, It's mockery. So look

587
00:41:47,559 --> 00:41:52,559
you see this convoy driving through the town. People are

588
00:41:52,599 --> 00:41:56,639
calling back. Then people literally called the media directly. Right

589
00:41:57,159 --> 00:41:59,079
in nineteen eighty four, if I wanted to listen to

590
00:41:59,159 --> 00:42:01,079
Van Halen Jump, I'd get on the phone and call

591
00:42:01,360 --> 00:42:06,320
WSDW or WCAU out of Philadelphia, and I tell the DJ, Hey,

592
00:42:06,320 --> 00:42:08,920
you're going to play jump, I Dave, you know George

593
00:42:08,960 --> 00:42:13,760
from Wilmington. Here's Jump by Van Halen. Right, we had

594
00:42:13,840 --> 00:42:17,880
access to the media, and that's what happened. People started

595
00:42:17,880 --> 00:42:24,000
calling the newspapers, the radio, stay what's going on? And man,

596
00:42:24,079 --> 00:42:29,239
everybody starts to converge. One of them, one of the

597
00:42:29,239 --> 00:42:32,920
people who would end up converging, later played a part.

598
00:42:32,920 --> 00:42:35,320
In nineteen ninety five, he played a I should say

599
00:42:35,360 --> 00:42:39,320
he played a role on the stage of the Hoklosahoma

600
00:42:39,440 --> 00:42:45,599
City event. Of course, that's Timothy McVeigh. So here we are.

601
00:42:45,800 --> 00:42:49,239
You got these reporters assigned to scout the scene at

602
00:42:49,239 --> 00:42:53,199
Mount Caramel. One of them got lost and asked directions

603
00:42:53,239 --> 00:42:58,440
from a local mailman. Hey, excuse me, sir, can you

604
00:42:58,440 --> 00:43:01,519
tell me where this Mount Caramel is? There's an assault

605
00:43:01,559 --> 00:43:03,239
about to happen and I got to go cover it.

606
00:43:06,599 --> 00:43:10,880
The man man's name was David Jones, who happened to

607
00:43:10,880 --> 00:43:14,880
be David Koresh's brother in law. So he headed to

608
00:43:14,960 --> 00:43:18,519
the residence to give the alarm. His father, Perry Jones,

609
00:43:18,559 --> 00:43:20,880
called Koresh out of the Bible study to tell him

610
00:43:21,280 --> 00:43:25,440
what David Jones had learned, and when he returned to

611
00:43:25,440 --> 00:43:29,880
the study group, Koresh was visibly upset. He called out

612
00:43:29,880 --> 00:43:32,639
to Rodriguez. He said, neither the ATF or the National

613
00:43:32,639 --> 00:43:36,159
Guard will ever get me. They got me once, will

614
00:43:36,199 --> 00:43:39,239
never get me again. He walked to the window and

615
00:43:39,400 --> 00:43:46,400
said they're coming. The time has come. And Rodriguez, who

616
00:43:46,760 --> 00:43:48,639
was afraid the raid was about to begin, while he

617
00:43:48,639 --> 00:43:52,519
was still in the premises, he said, I have an appointment,

618
00:43:52,599 --> 00:43:56,119
got to go. Koresh shook hands with him and said

619
00:43:56,119 --> 00:44:00,400
good luck, Robert, and he knew that was goodbye. Riguez

620
00:44:00,440 --> 00:44:03,199
hurried out to notify the raid. And if this was

621
00:44:03,199 --> 00:44:05,039
the real enemy, Koresh could have just pulled out a

622
00:44:05,039 --> 00:44:07,920
gun and held him as a hostage. Right, That's it's

623
00:44:08,000 --> 00:44:10,199
not what he did. He knew he was a plant,

624
00:44:10,280 --> 00:44:13,960
he knew he was part of it, but he let

625
00:44:14,039 --> 00:44:18,440
him go. That's something I don't think it's talked about enough. Right,

626
00:44:18,440 --> 00:44:24,480
A real bad guy. And again I'm not I'm just saying, right,

627
00:44:24,599 --> 00:44:27,000
this guy who was about to be converged on by

628
00:44:27,039 --> 00:44:30,599
a tyrannical government could have and I'm not saying it's justified. So,

629
00:44:31,119 --> 00:44:33,519
but I think many people in that situation, knowing that

630
00:44:33,639 --> 00:44:36,960
Rodriguez was the enemy, would have taken him as a

631
00:44:36,960 --> 00:44:40,119
hostage for self protection. And he didn't do that. So

632
00:44:40,199 --> 00:44:43,440
now it's nine am. The convoy gets underway, it arrived

633
00:44:43,440 --> 00:44:46,559
about a half hour later. In the meantime, you have

634
00:44:46,599 --> 00:44:51,199
helicopters that were scheduled to create a diversion. Right, that's

635
00:44:51,239 --> 00:44:55,440
what you do when we're at PODC. When you're planning

636
00:44:55,440 --> 00:44:57,599
an attack, you always have the diversion. You have one

637
00:44:57,639 --> 00:45:00,599
or two guys over here making noise. When enemy looks

638
00:45:00,599 --> 00:45:02,639
that way, then you come from the other side with

639
00:45:03,079 --> 00:45:11,920
overwhelming force. Right. So again, the helicopters that were scheduled

640
00:45:11,920 --> 00:45:17,199
to create a diversion so the approach of the cattle

641
00:45:17,239 --> 00:45:20,679
trailers that were filled with agents wouldn't be noticed. They

642
00:45:20,719 --> 00:45:24,679
were late. They didn't come by, right, They didn't come

643
00:45:24,679 --> 00:45:28,079
by until the cattle trucks were already pulling into the yard.

644
00:45:28,159 --> 00:45:31,800
It was too late to create a diversion. And to

645
00:45:31,840 --> 00:45:35,639
be honest with the a helicopter is going to create

646
00:45:36,079 --> 00:45:40,679
such a temporary distraction. It's just going to raise everybody's

647
00:45:40,679 --> 00:45:43,440
attention and it's going to say, hey, everybody to your post,

648
00:45:43,519 --> 00:45:45,599
and then whoever's on that post is going to see

649
00:45:45,639 --> 00:45:49,679
the convoy coming. I don't think that was ever meant

650
00:45:49,719 --> 00:45:54,199
to be the case. That's my opinion. They claimed it

651
00:45:54,239 --> 00:45:57,679
was too late for the raid to be aborted. And

652
00:45:57,719 --> 00:46:02,639
that is nonsense. You could aboard at any time. There

653
00:46:02,679 --> 00:46:06,039
hadn't even been a single bullet fire. That is the

654
00:46:06,079 --> 00:46:09,960
biggest lie. Well that's one of many, many lies out

655
00:46:09,960 --> 00:46:14,440
of all this nonsense. So again the events unfolded. The

656
00:46:14,480 --> 00:46:16,800
two unmarked cattle trailers drew up in front of the

657
00:46:16,840 --> 00:46:21,840
building as Mount Caramel, and you know, you have all

658
00:46:21,920 --> 00:46:26,599
these agents dressed in these commando suits with ski masks

659
00:46:28,519 --> 00:46:36,559
racing into this compound with women and children. I have

660
00:46:36,599 --> 00:46:40,559
a real problem. And I've said this before. I respect

661
00:46:40,760 --> 00:46:44,559
our first responders absolutely, I do. Again, it's the system.

662
00:46:45,000 --> 00:46:47,440
But I saw a police officer one time at ahuah

663
00:46:47,440 --> 00:46:52,360
Wah in Middletown, and again I don't know why I

664
00:46:52,400 --> 00:46:54,519
said it. I just looked at him and he was

665
00:46:55,559 --> 00:46:58,320
full battle rattle, and I said to him, I was like, wow,

666
00:46:58,880 --> 00:47:02,159
I said, things must be tough around here because I

667
00:47:02,280 --> 00:47:05,199
wore less kit than that walking around Bagdad, and he

668
00:47:05,400 --> 00:47:08,599
just kind of looked at me like whatever, dude. But

669
00:47:08,719 --> 00:47:14,199
that is it should bother you that our police drive

670
00:47:14,280 --> 00:47:17,960
around with you know, they have these uparmored vehicles, they

671
00:47:18,000 --> 00:47:24,800
have full body they have M four's right in the fifties,

672
00:47:24,800 --> 00:47:26,599
if you go by I always say, go back and

673
00:47:26,639 --> 00:47:29,719
watch leave It to Beaver. You don't see police officers.

674
00:47:30,559 --> 00:47:33,639
They have their billy club, they wear a short sleeved shirt.

675
00:47:33,880 --> 00:47:37,679
And then that's basically it. That's because there was accountability

676
00:47:37,719 --> 00:47:41,320
back then, and that was the whole you know, preface

677
00:47:41,360 --> 00:47:48,079
of my article today was accountability. If there's no accountability

678
00:47:48,119 --> 00:47:52,880
on either side when someone commits a crime against people,

679
00:47:53,280 --> 00:47:55,840
where the government commits a crime against the people, whether

680
00:47:55,880 --> 00:47:58,280
it's people against people or the government against the people,

681
00:47:58,559 --> 00:48:02,000
there's no accountability. In the state of Delaware, ninety nine

682
00:48:02,000 --> 00:48:04,119
percent of the time someone commits a crime, they're out

683
00:48:04,159 --> 00:48:07,519
the next day. Sell for cognizance five hundred dollars right,

684
00:48:08,239 --> 00:48:11,239
manslaughter more than five hundred dollars bond. Oh, that's going

685
00:48:11,280 --> 00:48:14,960
to show them. That'll teach them there's no accountability, but

686
00:48:15,039 --> 00:48:18,320
that they want a world that isn't turmoil. It's easier

687
00:48:18,400 --> 00:48:22,880
to govern a world that isn't turmoil because we're screaming

688
00:48:22,920 --> 00:48:27,199
for safety. We have it now. It's going to cost

689
00:48:27,199 --> 00:48:29,159
you a little bit of your freedoms, but you're going

690
00:48:29,199 --> 00:48:33,000
to be safer. And that's how they get down to it. Right.

691
00:48:35,920 --> 00:48:41,920
So you know, at some point, you know the gunfire begins. Koresh,

692
00:48:41,920 --> 00:48:44,519
who was unarmed at this point, I must make that

693
00:48:44,519 --> 00:48:47,920
perfectly clear, open the front door before they reached it,

694
00:48:47,960 --> 00:48:49,960
and says, what do you want? What are you doing?

695
00:48:50,119 --> 00:48:54,960
There's children and women in here, and of course what

696
00:48:55,000 --> 00:49:00,320
does the lead agent do? Police get down? And you know,

697
00:49:00,800 --> 00:49:07,159
sometimes I watch these police videos on YouTube and there'll

698
00:49:07,199 --> 00:49:09,079
be a shootout and they'll just drill the guy in

699
00:49:09,119 --> 00:49:12,679
the chest and he'll go down and they'll continue to

700
00:49:12,719 --> 00:49:14,679
yell hands up, hands up, and the guy is dead

701
00:49:14,679 --> 00:49:19,679
as a door now, and I get the adrenaline rush

702
00:49:19,679 --> 00:49:22,679
in those situations. I've been in those situations, you know,

703
00:49:22,800 --> 00:49:28,360
when bullets are flying, when there's explosions, but not against

704
00:49:28,360 --> 00:49:37,239
women and children. Absolutely not. I can't tell you. I

705
00:49:37,280 --> 00:49:39,320
always get to this point to the podcast and I

706
00:49:39,320 --> 00:49:42,079
start to get very upset. It's thirty three years ago.

707
00:49:42,079 --> 00:49:45,719
It can't change it. But you would think somebody, a

708
00:49:45,719 --> 00:49:49,400
grown man within that would have said this is wrong.

709
00:49:51,840 --> 00:49:53,840
And I'm not saying there wasn't, but it wasn't the

710
00:49:53,880 --> 00:49:57,800
loudest voice, that's for sure. And before you know it,

711
00:49:57,960 --> 00:50:03,519
a heavy fire breaking out from both sides. Two teams

712
00:50:03,519 --> 00:50:06,079
of the ATF agents with ladders mounted the roof. Never

713
00:50:06,119 --> 00:50:08,360
forget that, right, the shots coming through the windows, the

714
00:50:08,360 --> 00:50:13,280
agent getting a hit, being carried down. One team didn't

715
00:50:13,280 --> 00:50:16,320
make an entry, but the other did, but they weren't

716
00:50:16,320 --> 00:50:22,000
able to advance because the gunfower. They were prepared, and

717
00:50:22,079 --> 00:50:26,320
that was the key. I think, deep down all of

718
00:50:26,360 --> 00:50:31,280
this was intentional to get the people mad, and that

719
00:50:31,360 --> 00:50:33,960
way the news could come on and start talking about

720
00:50:35,440 --> 00:50:43,639
cult crazy. And you know, I'll never forget going. We

721
00:50:44,079 --> 00:50:48,679
went out to dinner that night, and I remember people

722
00:50:48,679 --> 00:50:53,119
in the restaurant. Maybe I I just remember. Maybe it

723
00:50:53,199 --> 00:50:55,639
wasn't that day, maybe it was the next day. I

724
00:50:55,679 --> 00:50:59,440
just remember people being, well, thank goodness, those people are gone.

725
00:50:59,519 --> 00:51:04,199
Like that, a lot of people. I'm not saying that

726
00:51:04,280 --> 00:51:07,480
was the overwhelming majority, but there were some people. I'm

727
00:51:07,519 --> 00:51:10,320
just like, WHOA, those wackos are gone. Thank goodness. We

728
00:51:10,360 --> 00:51:12,199
can go back to our normal lives and not have

729
00:51:12,360 --> 00:51:20,400
those people around here again. It's just obscene. So a

730
00:51:20,400 --> 00:51:22,880
few minutes after the raid began, one of the Davidians,

731
00:51:22,960 --> 00:51:28,280
Wayne Martin, who was a Harvard trained lawyer very well

732
00:51:28,280 --> 00:51:30,840
regarded in Waco, he called nine to one one. He

733
00:51:30,920 --> 00:51:35,760
reached the Sheriff's office in Waco, and you can still

734
00:51:35,760 --> 00:51:39,679
find that audio on YouTube. I believe he's screaming, He's like,

735
00:51:39,679 --> 00:51:43,840
what are you doing. There's seventy five men around our

736
00:51:43,880 --> 00:51:47,119
building and they're shooting at us. Tell them there's women

737
00:51:47,159 --> 00:51:51,440
and children in here and get out of here. And

738
00:51:51,719 --> 00:51:56,519
you know, this is repeated on and off as the

739
00:51:56,599 --> 00:51:59,519
sheriff's office even tried to reach out to the ATF

740
00:51:59,559 --> 00:52:03,719
and put him in touch with Martin, and finally, luckily

741
00:52:03,760 --> 00:52:06,760
they were able to arrange a ceasefire and they allowed

742
00:52:06,760 --> 00:52:09,840
the ATF agents to recover the bodies. It was I

743
00:52:09,880 --> 00:52:12,760
think four killed and there was several wounded agents as well.

744
00:52:13,559 --> 00:52:17,119
They withdrew to a safe distance and they regrouped, and

745
00:52:17,199 --> 00:52:19,880
of course there was mass confusion the leadership in the

746
00:52:19,960 --> 00:52:23,880
day again inept. Yes, purposefully, we can debate that, I

747
00:52:23,920 --> 00:52:26,559
think so. I think the goal from the beginning was

748
00:52:26,599 --> 00:52:29,519
to get to April nineteenth so they could do their sacrifice.

749
00:52:30,679 --> 00:52:35,440
That's my belief. When you're in this business long enough

750
00:52:35,440 --> 00:52:38,559
to see how this world operates, these things don't happen.

751
00:52:39,519 --> 00:52:45,679
They're not coincidental, they're not They didn't have a backup plan.

752
00:52:45,760 --> 00:52:48,679
They said this is how it's going to go. And listen,

753
00:52:48,719 --> 00:52:51,519
anytime we've gone on a raid or anything before, there's

754
00:52:51,559 --> 00:52:55,800
a B and C. Right, if we go into this entryway,

755
00:52:55,840 --> 00:52:59,280
if it's blocked off, this is our way, and if

756
00:52:59,320 --> 00:53:03,960
that doesn't work out, this is our exit plan. Right now,

757
00:53:05,119 --> 00:53:08,719
It's like some kid playing Call of Duty came up

758
00:53:08,719 --> 00:53:13,480
with this plan. Now. Of course, the branch Davidian suffered

759
00:53:13,480 --> 00:53:18,079
casualties as well. Perry Jones, Koresh's father in law, who

760
00:53:18,079 --> 00:53:20,159
was standing behind him in the foyer when he opened

761
00:53:20,199 --> 00:53:22,760
the door he was shot. Koresh was hitting the hand

762
00:53:22,800 --> 00:53:25,880
and the side right the famous video of him holding

763
00:53:25,920 --> 00:53:30,559
aside bleeding on that videotape Winston Blake. He was killed

764
00:53:30,559 --> 00:53:32,440
at one end of the building, when J. D. Wendell

765
00:53:32,559 --> 00:53:35,760
was killed at the other, just as she had finished

766
00:53:35,880 --> 00:53:39,239
nursing her baby. Peter Gent was shot and killed in

767
00:53:39,280 --> 00:53:42,679
the water tower. Peter Hipsman was hit inside the house.

768
00:53:45,360 --> 00:53:48,880
Several Davidians hurrying to mount caramel from a warehouse called

769
00:53:48,880 --> 00:53:53,639
the mag Bag several miles away or intercepted by ATF agents.

770
00:53:54,320 --> 00:54:00,079
One was killed Michael Schreider, and one was captured and

771
00:53:59,800 --> 00:54:06,800
one got away. So the next day the FBI takes

772
00:54:06,840 --> 00:54:10,639
over the investigation right, the famous Hollywood movie We're in

773
00:54:10,760 --> 00:54:18,159
George Now. Right. They had mutual recognition that it's HRT

774
00:54:18,480 --> 00:54:22,559
was more experienced. Right. The ATF's hostage rescue team wasn't

775
00:54:22,639 --> 00:54:26,639
quite as seasoned as the FBI's, or so they say.

776
00:54:28,000 --> 00:54:31,920
The FBI established a containment perimeter around the Mount Caramel buildings,

777
00:54:32,000 --> 00:54:37,599
cut off all telephones other communications except with its own negotiators,

778
00:54:38,079 --> 00:54:41,280
and settled down to a patient process of trying to

779
00:54:41,320 --> 00:54:44,320
talk to the Davidians out of their home, which again

780
00:54:44,599 --> 00:54:50,760
was returned as a compound a fortress. And of course

781
00:54:50,840 --> 00:54:56,280
this consisted of several hours the negotiators listening to Koresh

782
00:54:56,960 --> 00:55:02,480
I've played his calls before, where he's literally almost giving

783
00:55:02,480 --> 00:55:06,480
a sermon over the phone to the negotiators, constantly reciting scripture,

784
00:55:07,039 --> 00:55:10,079
and these guys don't know how to react, and they're like, well,

785
00:55:10,480 --> 00:55:12,320
what are we going to do David, And he's just saying,

786
00:55:12,360 --> 00:55:13,960
you guys need to leave, you need to get out

787
00:55:13,960 --> 00:55:15,920
of here, and they're like, well, we're not going to

788
00:55:15,960 --> 00:55:20,840
do that. So again, these negotiations were sabotaged from the beginning,

789
00:55:23,000 --> 00:55:25,800
and the FBI referred to it as Bible Bibel. And

790
00:55:25,840 --> 00:55:29,239
again this is the words that they're throwing across on

791
00:55:29,360 --> 00:55:34,639
the television, that they're intentionally making the Bible sound like gibberish. Well,

792
00:55:34,679 --> 00:55:39,880
if this guy believes the Bible, right, it's not a coincidence.

793
00:55:39,880 --> 00:55:42,440
When you look at the ninety was really the initial

794
00:55:42,480 --> 00:55:48,519
downfall of the church, the numbers are staggering. This again,

795
00:55:48,559 --> 00:55:52,440
this was a multifaceted operation, and one of the intentions

796
00:55:52,519 --> 00:55:56,760
was clearly to trivialize the Word of God. I believe

797
00:55:56,800 --> 00:56:01,760
that one thousand percent that's the Bible babble is what

798
00:56:01,800 --> 00:56:06,079
they called it. This guy Koresh gone on reading these

799
00:56:06,719 --> 00:56:12,840
something about some something about revelation, crazy words. Then they

800
00:56:12,920 --> 00:56:17,159
started to use pressure tactics and they did get some

801
00:56:17,280 --> 00:56:19,639
women and children out. During the first week of the siege,

802
00:56:19,679 --> 00:56:23,320
twenty one children and two utterly women did come out.

803
00:56:23,840 --> 00:56:29,480
And of course the two women were immediately and I'm

804
00:56:29,519 --> 00:56:32,599
not laughing because it's funny. I'm laughing at disbelief, just

805
00:56:33,039 --> 00:56:38,280
handcuffing these elderly women, handcuffing them, shackling them and charging

806
00:56:38,280 --> 00:56:44,360
them with murder. Negotiators persuaded the prosecutors to back off

807
00:56:44,360 --> 00:56:50,320
a little bit. Yeah, my goodness. In the ensuing week

808
00:56:50,920 --> 00:56:53,480
two weeks, pardon me, twelve additional adults came out. They

809
00:56:53,480 --> 00:56:57,960
exited the compound, as the federal jargon put it, but

810
00:56:58,039 --> 00:57:03,079
each such departure would be punished by an increase in

811
00:57:03,159 --> 00:57:06,079
pressure tactics. So what did they do? First? They turned

812
00:57:06,079 --> 00:57:11,920
off the electricity. They turned it off occasionally, and then

813
00:57:11,960 --> 00:57:16,400
shut it down permanently after several adults had come out.

814
00:57:16,440 --> 00:57:18,840
On March twenty first, the FBI announced that it would

815
00:57:18,880 --> 00:57:23,480
clear the ground of the buildings, bulldozing, automobiles, go karts,

816
00:57:23,559 --> 00:57:27,920
propane tanks, and other quote obstacles that stood in the way.

817
00:57:27,960 --> 00:57:32,920
So their private property became obstacles. That evening, the FBI

818
00:57:33,000 --> 00:57:36,159
began playing very loud music over the public address system,

819
00:57:36,719 --> 00:57:40,599
the psychological operations that have been used for a long

820
00:57:40,639 --> 00:57:44,440
long time. Loud music, rabbits crying, you know, all of

821
00:57:44,480 --> 00:57:46,719
these things that they do to make people lose their mind,

822
00:57:47,400 --> 00:57:52,519
is what they started doing. Remember, the government assaulted them first,

823
00:57:52,840 --> 00:57:56,079
could have arrested him anytime, just waited when he went downtown,

824
00:57:56,760 --> 00:58:03,280
rested him, but no again intentional. Korsh and the Davidians

825
00:58:03,280 --> 00:58:05,480
had asked many times over the phone that it be

826
00:58:05,519 --> 00:58:11,480
turned off. About midnight, Koresh announced angrily. Because of the

827
00:58:11,519 --> 00:58:15,280
loud music, no one else would come out. Then they

828
00:58:15,360 --> 00:58:18,599
started the floodlights right so it was constant light into

829
00:58:18,599 --> 00:58:21,840
the building. Then they started playing recordings of Tibetan chants,

830
00:58:22,480 --> 00:58:28,559
Christmas music, the cries of rabbits being slaughtered. Very intense

831
00:58:28,599 --> 00:58:34,519
psychological operations. Beginning March twenty ninth to attorneys retained by

832
00:58:34,519 --> 00:58:38,000
the relatives of Koresh and his lieutenant Steve Schneider were

833
00:58:38,039 --> 00:58:41,880
permitted to meet with them at the door of Mount Carmo. Later,

834
00:58:41,960 --> 00:58:44,519
they were allowed to consult with them indoors for several

835
00:58:44,519 --> 00:58:48,320
hours and to talk with them by phone without Federal monitoring.

836
00:58:49,800 --> 00:58:52,400
During the first week of April, the branch Davidians were

837
00:58:52,440 --> 00:58:57,760
observing passover, which I mentioned at the beginning, the negotiations

838
00:58:57,800 --> 00:59:02,000
were at a standstill. At April tenth, the FBI began

839
00:59:02,079 --> 00:59:06,280
laying large coils of razor sharp concertina wire around the

840
00:59:06,280 --> 00:59:13,239
buildings to close the perimeter more securely. Two men, adult

841
00:59:13,280 --> 00:59:17,320
males and federal leaves had snuck into the buildings during

842
00:59:17,480 --> 00:59:21,039
the preceding period. They had also fired flash bangs these

843
00:59:21,719 --> 00:59:25,679
distraction slash concussion grenades at anyone who came out of

844
00:59:25,719 --> 00:59:28,639
the buildings for any other purpose other than surrender. So

845
00:59:28,760 --> 00:59:30,840
someone came out of the building that were harassing them,

846
00:59:31,239 --> 00:59:35,760
throwing flash flash bangs and those type of things. Just

847
00:59:36,199 --> 00:59:40,880
constant torture and harassment of these people. And throughout the

848
00:59:40,920 --> 00:59:48,679
siege the FBI only approached the buildings in armored vehicles. Again,

849
00:59:48,880 --> 00:59:52,599
this sends a message to the opposing people that you

850
00:59:52,679 --> 00:59:57,159
are in combat mode. That escalates them. Well, if they're

851
00:59:57,159 --> 01:00:00,440
coming with you know, armored vehicle, I better half my

852
01:00:00,519 --> 01:00:04,079
at four ready, right, And the escalation just went back

853
01:00:04,119 --> 01:00:07,960
and forth. By the way, this blows my mind. And

854
01:00:08,599 --> 01:00:12,320
obviously you all know this, but there was nine Bradley's.

855
01:00:12,519 --> 01:00:14,920
You know, these came to for WISEN just a few

856
01:00:15,000 --> 01:00:19,519
years before that. The Bradley Fighting vehicle was the ODS,

857
01:00:19,559 --> 01:00:23,719
the Operation Desert Storm vehicle. Kelsey Grammar made a satirical

858
01:00:23,760 --> 01:00:30,320
movie about Boy if you the taxpayers and the Bradley

859
01:00:30,400 --> 01:00:36,159
Fighting vehicles. Oh my goodness, but they had nine Bradley

860
01:00:36,360 --> 01:00:42,800
fighting vehicles that were built for Operation Desert Storm are

861
01:00:42,920 --> 01:00:45,880
against these people lined up, and of course you had

862
01:00:45,920 --> 01:00:50,840
engineering vehicles. They had a tank retrieval vehicle in case

863
01:00:50,840 --> 01:00:52,760
one went down, they could pull it out. They had

864
01:00:52,840 --> 01:01:06,119
Abrams tanks, seventy five men and women tanks, Bradley's. You

865
01:01:06,239 --> 01:01:08,880
tell me they didn't go there to kill those people.

866
01:01:11,920 --> 01:01:19,079
Reno walked, Clinton walked, everybody in the atf FBI walked.

867
01:01:20,000 --> 01:01:24,320
Half the population were just glad it was over. The

868
01:01:24,360 --> 01:01:27,440
other half couldn't believe what happened. Then they went about

869
01:01:27,480 --> 01:01:34,719
their day, And that's the truth. During the fifty one

870
01:01:34,760 --> 01:01:37,480
day siege, the Davidians made forty one request to the

871
01:01:37,559 --> 01:01:42,920
FBI milk. A lot of it was for the children, right, typewriter, ribbons, batteries.

872
01:01:43,920 --> 01:01:47,639
Half of them I think twenty five were granted. With

873
01:01:47,719 --> 01:01:51,119
the milk cartons and other deliveries, the FBI slipped in

874
01:01:51,159 --> 01:01:55,000
electronic listening devices that gave them a partial understanding of

875
01:01:55,000 --> 01:01:58,239
what was going on inside. Towards the end of March,

876
01:01:58,639 --> 01:02:02,639
the FBI began to consider the possibility of inserting tear

877
01:02:02,679 --> 01:02:08,400
gas unto the buildings. Now, remember move in Philadelphia that

878
01:02:08,559 --> 01:02:11,039
was I think eighty five, where they burnt down an

879
01:02:11,239 --> 01:02:17,159
entire city with the same tactics. They knew what was

880
01:02:17,159 --> 01:02:19,880
going to happen. They knew what was going to happen, right.

881
01:02:21,199 --> 01:02:26,719
This expedient was eventually presented to Steve Reno or I'm

882
01:02:26,719 --> 01:02:32,639
sorry Janet Reno. After consideration that was intentional, by the way,

883
01:02:32,840 --> 01:02:40,320
and consideration and consultation with the President, she approved it. Ironically,

884
01:02:41,000 --> 01:02:43,880
just as the federal government was abandoning hope of a

885
01:02:43,920 --> 01:02:48,239
peaceful solution, that opened up the possibility of such an outcome.

886
01:02:48,960 --> 01:02:51,480
You see, early in the siege, Koresh had promised to

887
01:02:51,480 --> 01:02:54,639
come out if his message could be aired on national media,

888
01:02:55,159 --> 01:02:57,880
and he did indeed prepare an hour long audio tape

889
01:02:58,079 --> 01:03:05,880
that was broadcast locally but not nationally. Two quote unquote

890
01:03:05,920 --> 01:03:10,400
scholars of apocalyptic religion, Phil Arnold of the Reunion Institute

891
01:03:10,400 --> 01:03:15,000
in Houston and James Tabor of the University of North Carolina,

892
01:03:15,639 --> 01:03:19,559
study the broadcast and believe Koresh could be reasoned if

893
01:03:19,599 --> 01:03:24,559
approached within his own frame of reference. Right, you can't

894
01:03:24,639 --> 01:03:29,880
address Koresh with FBI lingo is somebody with who could

895
01:03:29,880 --> 01:03:32,960
match him doctrinally and kind of reason with him that way.

896
01:03:32,960 --> 01:03:37,519
They believed that he would, They could get him to

897
01:03:37,559 --> 01:03:43,280
come out, So again they tried to plead with the

898
01:03:43,320 --> 01:03:45,239
FBI to say, hey, I think we can reason with

899
01:03:45,280 --> 01:03:47,599
this guy. Well, why don't you hear us out? They say, Now,

900
01:03:47,639 --> 01:03:51,239
this is just another delay tactic. We're just going to

901
01:03:51,280 --> 01:03:53,719
go ahead with our plans to use the tear gas.

902
01:03:55,119 --> 01:03:59,119
They did send in writing materials on Sunday, April eighteenth,

903
01:03:59,280 --> 01:04:03,400
and Koresh worked most of that night dictating to Ruth Riddle,

904
01:04:03,679 --> 01:04:08,119
who typed his words on a battery powered word processor.

905
01:04:08,960 --> 01:04:13,119
We went from the typewriter to that word processor. That

906
01:04:13,199 --> 01:04:15,119
was a short lift thing, right, and then just into

907
01:04:15,159 --> 01:04:19,119
computers and printers. He completed a five page introduction to

908
01:04:19,159 --> 01:04:23,360
the Seven Seals, a poem of thirteen quatrains, and a

909
01:04:23,400 --> 01:04:27,199
seven page exposition of the first Seal. Now, at that rate,

910
01:04:27,719 --> 01:04:30,639
Arnold and too Borr estimated he would have completed in

911
01:04:30,679 --> 01:04:34,159
about two weeks, and as you know, he didn't get

912
01:04:34,159 --> 01:04:39,559
the chance. The next morning, the FBI gyas assault began,

913
01:04:40,679 --> 01:04:44,840
and David Koresh must have concluded that his original scenario

914
01:04:45,440 --> 01:04:50,719
of imminent destruction was correct. Ruth Riddle barely escaped the

915
01:04:50,840 --> 01:04:54,639
ensuing fire with her life, with a small computer disc

916
01:04:54,719 --> 01:04:58,079
in her pocket. Late nineteen ninety three, her attorney was

917
01:04:58,119 --> 01:05:01,199
able to recover that disc from the FBI and did

918
01:05:01,239 --> 01:05:03,760
turn it over to Arnold and to Borr, who, with

919
01:05:03,840 --> 01:05:09,280
her help, carefully transcribed it. It is a systematic explanation

920
01:05:09,559 --> 01:05:15,239
of Kureesh's apocalyptic vision, ending with an imitation, I'm sorry,

921
01:05:15,599 --> 01:05:19,400
intimidation of a readiness to come out a seclusion adapted

922
01:05:19,440 --> 01:05:23,840
from the words of the prophet Joel two sixteen. Let

923
01:05:23,880 --> 01:05:27,239
the bridegroom go forth from his chamber and the bride

924
01:05:27,320 --> 01:05:30,480
out of her closet. Yes, the bride is definitely to

925
01:05:30,559 --> 01:05:33,880
be revealed, for we know that Christ is the heavenly

926
01:05:33,920 --> 01:05:38,880
sanctuary anticipating his marriage, of which God has spoken. Should

927
01:05:38,880 --> 01:05:41,559
we not eagerly ourselves be ready to accept this truth

928
01:05:41,599 --> 01:05:44,800
and come out of our closet and be revealed to

929
01:05:44,920 --> 01:05:48,320
the world as those who love Christ and the truth

930
01:05:48,960 --> 01:05:53,519
and righteousness. So what's happening here is Arnold and Toboor,

931
01:05:53,639 --> 01:05:57,719
these scholars are saying in this writing that he was.

932
01:05:58,920 --> 01:06:02,639
They made clear that Koresh did not, in any way,

933
01:06:02,679 --> 01:06:06,360
shape or form, consider himself to be Jesus as many

934
01:06:06,400 --> 01:06:12,719
of the media had pushed that narrative. Right, very interesting,

935
01:06:12,800 --> 01:06:15,960
and that's something I'll leave up to the listener to

936
01:06:16,079 --> 01:06:22,480
discern and study and things of that nature. So April nineteenth,

937
01:06:22,760 --> 01:06:27,679
the FBI began six am to spray riot controls CS gas.

938
01:06:27,800 --> 01:06:33,039
Anybody who's been in the military has been exposed to that.

939
01:06:33,039 --> 01:06:35,360
That is part of your basic training. You go into this.

940
01:06:35,719 --> 01:06:42,400
It's horrible. You go into this building outside far away

941
01:06:42,400 --> 01:06:44,920
from post. I mean it's on pot I was at

942
01:06:44,920 --> 01:06:47,639
Fort Leonard Wood and it was just a building out

943
01:06:47,679 --> 01:06:52,079
in the field. CS guests would be in there. It

944
01:06:52,159 --> 01:06:54,039
was just to show you that your mask worse. You

945
01:06:54,079 --> 01:06:56,280
would walk in with your mask, you could breathe, do

946
01:06:56,400 --> 01:06:58,920
jumping jacks and move your neck around, and then the

947
01:06:59,000 --> 01:07:01,800
drill sergeant would tell you to take your mask off,

948
01:07:02,079 --> 01:07:04,559
and everybody would hold their breath as long as they could,

949
01:07:05,079 --> 01:07:08,320
and then you'd start choking and tearing up, and you

950
01:07:08,320 --> 01:07:13,199
would go out and you would be drooling and choking

951
01:07:13,320 --> 01:07:17,519
and coughing. That was whatever a week five or six

952
01:07:17,559 --> 01:07:22,840
of the army. Ah, the memories almost forty years ago

953
01:07:23,360 --> 01:07:27,280
was just crazy. But again, here they are spraying this

954
01:07:27,519 --> 01:07:30,599
gas into the buildings of Mount Caramel by the means

955
01:07:30,599 --> 01:07:33,880
of too heavy combat engineering vehicles. And remember they had

956
01:07:33,880 --> 01:07:36,559
those long booms with the spray nozzles on the end,

957
01:07:37,679 --> 01:07:39,920
and they did that in order to inject the substance

958
01:07:40,039 --> 01:07:43,639
into the living quarters the tanks. Remember, it plowed through

959
01:07:43,679 --> 01:07:49,320
those walls at several points, and the original plan was

960
01:07:49,360 --> 01:07:56,079
to continue slow spraying over forty eight hours with these tanks.

961
01:07:56,079 --> 01:08:01,719
Are you kidding me? Unless the residents compromised the process

962
01:08:01,760 --> 01:08:07,639
by resisting. Now, as the tank's approached, I'm going to

963
01:08:07,639 --> 01:08:12,559
say this again. As the tanks approached, I'm going to

964
01:08:12,599 --> 01:08:14,320
say this one more time for those who may have

965
01:08:14,400 --> 01:08:22,319
missed it. As the tanks approached, the FBI insisted, this

966
01:08:22,399 --> 01:08:25,760
is not an assault. So for those of you who

967
01:08:25,800 --> 01:08:31,560
are scoring at home coming at someone's place of you know,

968
01:08:31,600 --> 01:08:38,640
their residence with a tank is not consisting of an assault.

969
01:08:39,920 --> 01:08:44,520
And of course the residents didn't submit to this treatment meekly.

970
01:08:44,680 --> 01:08:49,680
They fired bank, they fired back. Of course, a bullet

971
01:08:49,680 --> 01:08:52,159
doesn't do anything to a tank, bing bing right, It

972
01:08:52,319 --> 01:08:58,279
just bounces off, and that's just hearing the gunfire. They

973
01:08:58,319 --> 01:09:01,279
automatically went to play plan be. They're just like, disperse

974
01:09:01,439 --> 01:09:05,720
all of the gas as fast as possible. None came out,

975
01:09:05,960 --> 01:09:10,119
So around noon a fire broke out at several points,

976
01:09:10,439 --> 01:09:14,000
and in the brisk thirty mile an hour win that day,

977
01:09:15,640 --> 01:09:21,279
that place went up quickly. At twelve thirteen, the FBI

978
01:09:21,359 --> 01:09:25,680
called the fire department and imagining knowing ahead of time

979
01:09:25,680 --> 01:09:28,000
you're going to spray yes gas and not having the

980
01:09:28,000 --> 01:09:32,199
fire department just for that alone, somebody should have spent

981
01:09:32,640 --> 01:09:36,840
many years in prison and a loss of all benefits,

982
01:09:37,119 --> 01:09:43,119
pay pension, all of it. We go to a range

983
01:09:43,199 --> 01:09:47,840
to fire. Our weapons are M fours, we have all

984
01:09:47,880 --> 01:09:51,960
that stuff on the standby. We've got the fire extinguishers,

985
01:09:52,680 --> 01:09:56,079
all of it, and the fire department is on standby

986
01:09:56,199 --> 01:10:00,680
ready to go. Nearby. Doesn't take m especially with trace around,

987
01:10:01,600 --> 01:10:04,720
and you have CS gas, which you know, just eight

988
01:10:04,800 --> 01:10:15,079
years prior burned down an entire city. Twelve thirteen, the

989
01:10:15,119 --> 01:10:17,640
FBI calls the fire department. The fire trucks arrive at

990
01:10:17,640 --> 01:10:21,319
twelve thirty four, but were held at the FBI checkpoint

991
01:10:21,600 --> 01:10:26,199
because the danger of gunfire. There's seventy five people burning

992
01:10:26,239 --> 01:10:28,439
alive in there, but we better hold up. Of course,

993
01:10:28,439 --> 01:10:32,479
those probably rounds popping off from the fire. Right by

994
01:10:32,520 --> 01:10:34,600
the time they get there, at almost quarter till twelve

995
01:10:34,680 --> 01:10:39,079
forty five, there's nothing left to be salvage. Nine residents

996
01:10:39,079 --> 01:10:42,520
were able to get out, and they were hurt. Oh

997
01:10:42,560 --> 01:10:46,720
by the way, these people were burnt seriously. They managed

998
01:10:46,760 --> 01:10:51,159
to escape with their lives. They were in tough shape.

999
01:10:51,319 --> 01:10:59,680
They were arrested shackled, unbelievable. After the ruins had cooled,

1000
01:11:01,000 --> 01:11:04,000
the forces of law enforcement combed the site for evidence,

1001
01:11:04,800 --> 01:11:08,800
and of course they subsequently buldozed the grounds for health reasons.

1002
01:11:10,079 --> 01:11:13,079
The remains of some seventy five bodies were recovered and

1003
01:11:13,359 --> 01:11:17,960
examined by the Terran County Medicals Medical Examiner's Office in

1004
01:11:18,039 --> 01:11:22,239
Fort Worth, Texas. The magnitude of the disaster and the

1005
01:11:22,279 --> 01:11:25,720
obscurity of it causes and it's handling by the federal

1006
01:11:25,760 --> 01:11:31,239
agencies led to demands for investigation and explanation. Of course,

1007
01:11:31,359 --> 01:11:36,279
with any other thing that's happened, Congressional hearings were held.

1008
01:11:37,359 --> 01:11:40,880
You know. Clinton took the unusual step of directing the

1009
01:11:40,920 --> 01:11:46,159
two cabinet officers responsible to investigate and report what happened.

1010
01:11:46,520 --> 01:11:49,119
Right They always it's always cya with these folks, cover

1011
01:11:49,199 --> 01:11:53,720
your behind, right, And for seven weeks the public had

1012
01:11:53,760 --> 01:11:56,760
been absorbed by daily accounts of what was going on

1013
01:11:58,119 --> 01:12:00,319
in this day and age. When something stays in the

1014
01:12:00,359 --> 01:12:03,000
news for like an hour, no matter how big it is,

1015
01:12:03,560 --> 01:12:07,159
this was the headline for a month and a half.

1016
01:12:08,600 --> 01:12:12,920
You had seven hundred I'm sorry, several hundred reporters from

1017
01:12:12,960 --> 01:12:16,399
across the country and around the world gathered in Waco,

1018
01:12:17,039 --> 01:12:20,840
and everybody had the shot of that building burning to

1019
01:12:20,960 --> 01:12:26,079
the ground, knowing that they were women and children and men,

1020
01:12:26,359 --> 01:12:35,760
human beings in there. There were a few representatives of

1021
01:12:35,800 --> 01:12:40,720
the alternate press. They tried to do independent investigating, but

1022
01:12:40,880 --> 01:12:44,560
we know how it goes. Their voices aren't widely heard.

1023
01:12:44,600 --> 01:12:53,920
I'm suppressed. The definition of the situation for government agencies

1024
01:12:53,960 --> 01:12:58,239
and the media was strongly colored by negative stereotypes about

1025
01:12:58,239 --> 01:13:01,720
the cults that had become an end over the past decade. Right,

1026
01:13:03,520 --> 01:13:07,319
and they aligned Kororesh and those people who were killed

1027
01:13:07,319 --> 01:13:11,760
that day with Jonestown. These people were drinking the kool aid, right,

1028
01:13:11,800 --> 01:13:19,000
the Krishnas, the scientologists and all of that. They really

1029
01:13:19,000 --> 01:13:21,720
did a number on the public when they should have

1030
01:13:21,800 --> 01:13:26,039
really got These people should have been standing in Austin,

1031
01:13:26,199 --> 01:13:28,680
which is the capital of Texas, and they should have

1032
01:13:28,720 --> 01:13:34,399
been in DC's screaming for accountability. So we know how

1033
01:13:34,439 --> 01:13:38,680
it goes. Thirteen hundred pages issued by the Department of Treasury,

1034
01:13:38,840 --> 01:13:42,760
the Justice Department. Yeah, we made some marrors, but I

1035
01:13:42,800 --> 01:13:45,560
think you know, the people did the best what they

1036
01:13:45,600 --> 01:13:49,600
could with what was in front of them, that they

1037
01:13:49,640 --> 01:13:53,079
had every opportunity to nip this in the bud before

1038
01:13:53,119 --> 01:13:59,119
it got to where it was. And you know, we've

1039
01:13:59,159 --> 01:14:05,439
covered the end at nauseum, and that's the biggest part, right.

1040
01:14:05,600 --> 01:14:07,880
They had ten outside experts who are invited to comment

1041
01:14:07,920 --> 01:14:11,239
on the Treasury and Justice Department reports. You had six

1042
01:14:11,279 --> 01:14:15,760
of them focused on law enforcement methods, organizations, their tactics,

1043
01:14:16,760 --> 01:14:19,640
but four of them were asked to address the problem

1044
01:14:19,760 --> 01:14:24,880
of dealing with persons whose motivations and thought processes are unconventional.

1045
01:14:27,920 --> 01:14:31,279
The only scholar of religion to be included was Professor

1046
01:14:31,399 --> 01:14:35,159
Nancy Ammerman, Sociology of religion at the Candler School of

1047
01:14:35,199 --> 01:14:39,239
Theology at Emory University. She was concerned about the lack

1048
01:14:39,279 --> 01:14:41,920
of understanding by the federal agencies of what they were

1049
01:14:41,960 --> 01:14:44,960
dealing with at Waco and their failure to consult experts

1050
01:14:45,039 --> 01:14:50,319
could have helped them. And she goes on to the

1051
01:14:50,359 --> 01:14:53,520
Millennius movement, all the other ways that the communications should

1052
01:14:53,600 --> 01:14:56,199
have been handled, on and on and on. But with

1053
01:14:56,359 --> 01:15:04,199
all that nonsense aside this, if they didn't want it

1054
01:15:04,199 --> 01:15:09,039
to be what it was, they simply could have arrested

1055
01:15:09,119 --> 01:15:15,720
him downtown. This was all intention right, and it goes

1056
01:15:15,720 --> 01:15:18,560
into ninety four. The federal government brought to trial ten

1057
01:15:18,640 --> 01:15:23,279
men one women among the twenty five adult branch Davidian survivors.

1058
01:15:24,159 --> 01:15:28,039
The principal charges against all eleven were conspiring to kill

1059
01:15:28,640 --> 01:15:33,199
with malice a forethought federal agents in the discharge of

1060
01:15:33,239 --> 01:15:36,600
their duties, and aiding and betting such killing. By the way,

1061
01:15:36,600 --> 01:15:41,039
another woman, Catherine Schrader, she actually pled guilty to a

1062
01:15:41,119 --> 01:15:45,479
lesser charge and agreed to testify for the government, which

1063
01:15:45,520 --> 01:15:48,199
meant that they wore her out. You want to go

1064
01:15:48,239 --> 01:15:50,680
to jail for twenty five years, you know, that's what

1065
01:15:50,720 --> 01:15:54,079
they do. They just sweat everybody until one person turns.

1066
01:15:58,079 --> 01:16:01,920
The trial was moved to San Antonio. They had a

1067
01:16:01,920 --> 01:16:07,680
anonymous jury selected. Ten attorneys represented the eleven defendants, and

1068
01:16:07,760 --> 01:16:12,680
the trial, just like the siege, lasted several I'm sorry,

1069
01:16:12,720 --> 01:16:19,239
seven weeks. The evidence that was adduced didn't settle who

1070
01:16:19,279 --> 01:16:23,279
fired the first shot or who started the fire, but

1071
01:16:23,399 --> 01:16:27,159
some new light shed on the claims that set forth

1072
01:16:27,159 --> 01:16:30,520
in the government's version of the events, and some light

1073
01:16:30,640 --> 01:16:32,800
was lacking that should have been shed because of the

1074
01:16:32,840 --> 01:16:39,079
evidence was strangely missing, some very important evidence that really

1075
01:16:39,119 --> 01:16:43,800
could have tossed some serious issues into the government's case.

1076
01:16:44,119 --> 01:16:50,359
Just happened to disappear, on and on and on and

1077
01:16:55,720 --> 01:17:01,279
just I don't even want to focus on the court case.

1078
01:17:01,439 --> 01:17:06,239
It's just a bunch of government agents covering for each

1079
01:17:06,239 --> 01:17:10,159
other about you know. Like Agent Craig testified that after

1080
01:17:10,199 --> 01:17:13,439
he inserted the first bottle of CS gas, he heard

1081
01:17:13,479 --> 01:17:16,159
on his radio that the residents began to fire back.

1082
01:17:17,720 --> 01:17:20,119
Apparently he was not aware that his vehicle had been

1083
01:17:20,199 --> 01:17:23,239
hit by gunfire because of its heavy armor, and of

1084
01:17:23,239 --> 01:17:27,600
course those engines are extremely loud. So he switched to

1085
01:17:27,640 --> 01:17:29,960
Plan B on his own and injected as much gas

1086
01:17:30,560 --> 01:17:33,359
as fast as he could, and he emptied his other

1087
01:17:33,399 --> 01:17:37,560
three bottles. He actually returned to get more, so that

1088
01:17:37,600 --> 01:17:48,840
place was full of gas, just full of gas. After impassion,

1089
01:17:48,920 --> 01:17:51,960
closing statements by both sides and a lengthy instruction from

1090
01:17:52,039 --> 01:17:57,279
Judge Walder Smith, the jury retired to deliberate. They called.

1091
01:17:57,279 --> 01:17:59,560
They said, hey, can we hear the tape of Wayne

1092
01:17:59,600 --> 01:18:03,000
Martin's nine one one call to the Sheriff's office, And

1093
01:18:03,159 --> 01:18:07,319
we need a few clarifications on the law. They debated,

1094
01:18:08,079 --> 01:18:12,279
and on February the twenty sixth, nineteen ninety four, the

1095
01:18:12,399 --> 01:18:16,720
jury found that all defendants, all of those Branch Davidians,

1096
01:18:17,520 --> 01:18:22,600
were not guilty of the most serious accusations, conspiracy to

1097
01:18:22,680 --> 01:18:28,079
murder federal agents and aiding abetting such conspiracy. In doing so,

1098
01:18:28,840 --> 01:18:33,159
you have to understand, the jury rejected the government's repeated

1099
01:18:33,239 --> 01:18:37,960
charge of ambush. The jury did convict five of them

1100
01:18:38,439 --> 01:18:41,439
of a lesser offense that the judge had been defined

1101
01:18:41,560 --> 01:18:44,640
as acting in the sudden heat of passion caused by

1102
01:18:44,760 --> 01:18:53,119
adequate provocation. Almost four months later, on June sixteenth, nineteen

1103
01:18:53,199 --> 01:18:57,119
ninety four, the judge convened a hearing for sentencing. In

1104
01:18:57,159 --> 01:19:00,600
the interim, pre sentenced reports had been prepared on each

1105
01:19:00,640 --> 01:19:06,000
convicted defendant by probation officers. But an odd thing happened.

1106
01:19:07,399 --> 01:19:14,560
The judge had reinstated the convictions on count three. Ruth Riddle,

1107
01:19:15,159 --> 01:19:20,039
who had been acquitted of all other charges, was being

1108
01:19:20,159 --> 01:19:26,239
deported to Canada for overstaying her visa, was tree from

1109
01:19:26,239 --> 01:19:31,920
the Immigration service and brought back to sentencing on that charge,

1110
01:19:32,000 --> 01:19:35,119
and the other six faced an additional year in prison

1111
01:19:35,399 --> 01:19:40,640
or years, I should say in prison. Before sentencing, each

1112
01:19:40,640 --> 01:19:44,239
of the nine convicted defendants, they had the opportunity to

1113
01:19:44,359 --> 01:19:49,760
address the court one or two asked to retry the case, insisting,

1114
01:19:50,239 --> 01:19:53,560
among other things, that the court did not have jurisdiction

1115
01:19:54,279 --> 01:19:57,880
and that Janet Reno and Bill Clinton should have been

1116
01:19:57,880 --> 01:20:01,560
called as witnesses, but they did not. Others maintained that

1117
01:20:01,600 --> 01:20:03,680
they had not been responsible for the deaths of the

1118
01:20:03,680 --> 01:20:07,199
ATF agents, and yes, one hundred percent Janet Reno's behind

1119
01:20:07,239 --> 01:20:11,439
should have been standing in there for that trial. No

1120
01:20:11,479 --> 01:20:15,600
one expressed contrition or remorse. Perhaps the best articulation of

1121
01:20:15,640 --> 01:20:19,720
their views was that of Livingston Fagen, the Jamaican who

1122
01:20:19,760 --> 01:20:26,000
was probably the only Branch Davidian with any formal theological training.

1123
01:20:27,199 --> 01:20:28,760
He said, first of all, there's no doubt in our

1124
01:20:28,760 --> 01:20:33,000
minds we are innocent. Never at any point have I

1125
01:20:33,079 --> 01:20:36,760
sought to distance myself from David Koresh. His teachings were

1126
01:20:36,800 --> 01:20:40,319
from the actions of the residents of Mount Caerma. The

1127
01:20:40,359 --> 01:20:44,960
actions that were forced to take were justified given the

1128
01:20:45,000 --> 01:20:49,640
circumstances that we were placed in by the actions of

1129
01:20:49,760 --> 01:20:55,520
the agents of the government. We were pursuing realities pertaining

1130
01:20:55,560 --> 01:21:00,359
to the spirit that this court did not does not recognize,

1131
01:21:00,520 --> 01:21:04,439
as they did not recognize two thousand years ago. Right

1132
01:21:04,479 --> 01:21:07,680
from the very beginning the spiritual aspect of this was

1133
01:21:07,720 --> 01:21:13,000
totally and absolutely rejected. But it was the very core

1134
01:21:13,079 --> 01:21:16,880
of why we were out Mount Caramo and essentially why

1135
01:21:16,920 --> 01:21:21,279
we acted the way we acted. He closed with this,

1136
01:21:22,319 --> 01:21:25,720
we don't particularly care what you want to do. You're

1137
01:21:25,760 --> 01:21:29,119
going to do it anyway, But we also serve a

1138
01:21:29,119 --> 01:21:32,920
God who sits on a throne like you, judge. He's

1139
01:21:32,960 --> 01:21:36,319
got a book in his hand sealed with seven seals.

1140
01:21:36,840 --> 01:21:40,800
Men don't know his judgment. Consequently, Mount Carmel happened the

1141
01:21:40,840 --> 01:21:44,840
way it did as you have judged, so too, you

1142
01:21:44,920 --> 01:21:48,159
will be judged. And we do not accept this notion,

1143
01:21:48,399 --> 01:21:51,800
this facade that is being presented in this court that

1144
01:21:51,880 --> 01:21:55,600
somehow we have agreed with this judgment, with this sentencing,

1145
01:21:55,880 --> 01:21:59,840
with anything that has taken place, We have not. We

1146
01:22:00,199 --> 01:22:05,960
are innocent, absolutely, without any doubts whatsoever, we know we

1147
01:22:06,039 --> 01:22:13,560
are innocent. Livingstone Faghan declined to appeal his sentence, saying

1148
01:22:13,880 --> 01:22:24,239
the Lord would look after him, and some folks did appeal,

1149
01:22:24,399 --> 01:22:30,119
many of them under a religious basis, and the government

1150
01:22:30,199 --> 01:22:36,279
reiterated its call for maximum sentences for all defendants, and

1151
01:22:37,439 --> 01:22:40,720
the judge entirely adopted the government scenario, despite the jury's

1152
01:22:40,760 --> 01:22:45,079
findings to the contrary his characterization of the Davidians beliefs

1153
01:22:48,199 --> 01:22:51,199
right just laid it out. In sentencing, the judge turned

1154
01:22:51,199 --> 01:22:54,880
the import of his jury instructions upside down. He had

1155
01:22:54,880 --> 01:22:57,840
told the jury that they could not convict on count

1156
01:22:57,880 --> 01:23:01,840
three unless they had found a defendant guilty under count one.

1157
01:23:02,159 --> 01:23:05,000
The jury made a mistake and convicted seven on count three,

1158
01:23:05,079 --> 01:23:09,199
but not count one. The judge then concluded that the

1159
01:23:09,319 --> 01:23:14,479
jury had found conspiracy after all, and bootstrapped count one

1160
01:23:14,520 --> 01:23:18,880
into the lesser count three. He threw the book at them,

1161
01:23:19,600 --> 01:23:23,319
so by reinstating convictions on the third count, the court

1162
01:23:23,359 --> 01:23:29,960
brought this draconian sentence system into the court and some

1163
01:23:30,119 --> 01:23:38,600
very heavy court findings. Right these rulings, they added thirty

1164
01:23:38,680 --> 01:23:42,439
years to the ten years of voluntary manslaughter? Was it

1165
01:23:43,039 --> 01:23:46,399
Reno's Avram forty years plus ten thousand dollars fine? Brad

1166
01:23:46,399 --> 01:23:51,279
Branch forty years, two thousand dollars fine, Jamie Castile forty years,

1167
01:23:51,479 --> 01:23:54,960
two thousand dollars fine, mister Fagan, who we talked about earlier,

1168
01:23:55,119 --> 01:24:02,119
forty years, Kevin Whitecliffe forty years, on and on and on,

1169
01:24:07,119 --> 01:24:10,560
but not one. No government agents from the nineteen ninety

1170
01:24:10,560 --> 01:24:17,199
three Waco Siege, went to jail, despite all the scrutiny, scrutiny,

1171
01:24:17,880 --> 01:24:22,199
despite all the scrutiny, all the investigations, which of course

1172
01:24:22,239 --> 01:24:26,600
are done under their guys, their watch, all the known

1173
01:24:26,640 --> 01:24:35,000
accusation of misconduct there was. Ultimately everyone was cleared of

1174
01:24:35,079 --> 01:24:41,279
criminal wrongdoing for the deaths at that compound on that day. Now,

1175
01:24:41,319 --> 01:24:46,520
obviously these podcasts are not all encompassing, right, you have

1176
01:24:46,600 --> 01:24:49,560
to kind of pick the main story go with it,

1177
01:24:50,359 --> 01:24:54,600
because otherwise it would be forty fifty hours, we'd have

1178
01:24:54,640 --> 01:24:57,000
to do several Even the when they did on Netflix

1179
01:24:57,119 --> 01:25:01,479
just barely touched and how many hours was that? The

1180
01:25:01,479 --> 01:25:05,560
big picture is, we continue to allow the government to

1181
01:25:05,600 --> 01:25:08,880
get away with the tyranny that it does, and it

1182
01:25:08,920 --> 01:25:13,239
has been doing so for the last, you know, two

1183
01:25:13,399 --> 01:25:16,119
hundred and fifty years, and will continue to do so

1184
01:25:16,239 --> 01:25:19,159
because they know how to conquer, they know how to divide,

1185
01:25:19,640 --> 01:25:22,199
and until we get everybody on board spiritually with the

1186
01:25:22,199 --> 01:25:26,199
Lord Jesus Christ, it doesn't really matter. And that's what

1187
01:25:26,199 --> 01:25:28,760
we should be focused on, because our time here is

1188
01:25:28,880 --> 01:25:31,800
limited and the Bible says we will be persecuted. So

1189
01:25:31,840 --> 01:25:34,680
you've got to get you get yourself right spiritually and

1190
01:25:34,720 --> 01:25:37,119
everything else will just fall in place and you won't

1191
01:25:37,159 --> 01:25:40,399
sweat these things. But it's just so shameful that people

1192
01:25:40,439 --> 01:25:46,039
support a government that does this type of evil. Next

1193
01:25:46,039 --> 01:25:49,199
week we're going to look into Oklahoma City, Timothy McVeigh,

1194
01:25:49,520 --> 01:25:54,079
the Double Explosions, and of course Terrence Yakey is someone

1195
01:25:54,119 --> 01:25:58,520
we always recognize every year. Who how that story is

1196
01:25:58,560 --> 01:26:03,079
not mainstream. You know, we've got several books going. We're

1197
01:26:03,239 --> 01:26:06,239
editing book number two now. I think that's something. If

1198
01:26:06,279 --> 01:26:08,159
I can reach out and find his family, what an

1199
01:26:08,159 --> 01:26:11,279
important book that would be. But God bless you all.

1200
01:26:11,319 --> 01:26:14,039
Thank you for your kind words, your continued support. Please

1201
01:26:14,079 --> 01:26:16,560
stop buy Foundations and Faith dot Net. Check out the

1202
01:26:17,840 --> 01:26:23,680
radio there. We have a prayer while there. Prayer is powerful,

1203
01:26:23,760 --> 01:26:26,399
sure is so? Anyway, We'll see you next week. God

1204
01:26:26,399 --> 01:26:28,680
bless you. Keep your head on a swivel, in Christ

1205
01:26:28,800 --> 01:26:30,800
in your heart until we meet again, my friends, we

1206
01:26:31,039 --> 01:26:31,720
will see you.

1207
01:26:34,399 --> 01:26:38,880
Speaker 5: I know it's been a struggle. I don't know if

1208
01:26:38,920 --> 01:26:46,600
you've had spain. I know you feel the ti hell

1209
01:26:46,760 --> 01:26:51,720
down all the way. Yeah, I know you feel them.

1210
01:26:54,399 --> 01:26:56,199
You smile the same.

1211
01:26:58,399 --> 01:27:04,000
Speaker 3: I found you feel like you've lost your way.

1212
01:27:07,960 --> 01:27:12,960
Speaker 4: Don't give up. No don't give it and never is home.

1213
01:27:13,159 --> 01:27:16,159
Speaker 3: Don't let call the primis.

1214
01:27:15,960 --> 01:27:19,960
Speaker 6: In a dumb yanke's got a playing Why it's a

1215
01:27:20,159 --> 01:27:20,800
right time?

1216
01:27:21,399 --> 01:27:22,079
Speaker 7: God up?

1217
01:27:22,600 --> 01:27:30,039
Speaker 4: Let me come? Why a right coming up?

1218
01:27:30,720 --> 01:27:42,560
Speaker 6: MC, I can see the street beside you. Child's are

1219
01:27:42,640 --> 01:27:47,880
putting up the five. Oh you're stronger than any thing.

1220
01:27:48,399 --> 01:27:50,159
Speaker 3: You guy.

1221
01:27:50,359 --> 01:27:56,199
Speaker 4: You're gonna be all right. You're accepting a bed found

1222
01:27:56,279 --> 01:28:03,960
you beautiful. You're shoving a Yeah, you're listen, breathing, move

1223
01:28:05,960 --> 01:28:08,079
you can hold your head a pie.

1224
01:28:11,920 --> 01:28:17,000
Speaker 7: Don't give up, No, don't give in. You never lose home.

1225
01:28:17,159 --> 01:28:21,560
Don't let go on the primies, it ain't done Yet's

1226
01:28:21,720 --> 01:28:27,439
God a plaid wat some raintail, the God of May comes.

1227
01:28:27,920 --> 01:28:33,000
Speaker 4: Don't give up. No, don't give in. You never lose home.

1228
01:28:33,159 --> 01:28:37,399
Speaker 3: Don't let go on the primice. It ain't got life.

1229
01:28:37,439 --> 01:28:41,720
Speaker 4: It's worth live in. Wat's a plain tail the god

1230
01:28:42,640 --> 01:28:43,399
baby car?

1231
01:28:47,399 --> 01:28:50,920
Speaker 7: Why surprise down the god v.

1232
01:28:53,399 --> 01:28:59,479
Speaker 4: Oh yes, what surprise down? The God up baby comes?

1233
01:29:01,960 --> 01:29:16,479
Oh yeah, God, don't.

1234
01:29:16,399 --> 01:29:21,159
Speaker 3: Give up, No, don't give in? Never les hol do

1235
01:29:21,399 --> 01:29:24,039
they goal of the crimes in.

1236
01:29:24,239 --> 01:29:29,920
Speaker 5: A done yengest got up playing watch and God of

1237
01:29:30,640 --> 01:29:32,439
in a coat and don't.

1238
01:29:32,359 --> 01:29:37,920
Speaker 4: Give no dog give whatever its home do the goal

1239
01:29:38,039 --> 01:29:42,560
of the crimes. It ain't done. Love's worth the live in.

1240
01:29:43,439 --> 01:29:54,039
Speaker 1: Wat's and the God of every cos, oh, the God

1241
01:29:54,359 --> 01:29:58,600
of needs.

1242
01:29:59,359 --> 01:30:18,039
Speaker 3: Wats God, you're.

1243
01:30:10,359 --> 01:30:12,439
Speaker 2: Listening to the Fact Hunter Radio Network.

1244
01:30:15,439 --> 01:30:16,199
Speaker 3: Just the facts, ma'am.