WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.120 --> 00:00:02.879 This episode of History Impossible is brought to you by 2 00:00:02.879 --> 00:00:06.080 the super generous supporters over on Patreon, like my amazing 3 00:00:06.120 --> 00:00:09.919 longtime patrons John Andre Sather and Mike Maylebin. If you 4 00:00:09.919 --> 00:00:11.720 want to help keep the show aflow, or you just 5 00:00:12.000 --> 00:00:13.960 like what I do and want to show it, head 6 00:00:14.000 --> 00:00:17.199 over to patreon dot com slash History Impossible, or consider 7 00:00:17.239 --> 00:00:21.079 becoming a paid annual subscriber over on the History Impossible substack. 8 00:00:21.559 --> 00:00:23.800 There's been a bit of a bump over on substack, 9 00:00:23.960 --> 00:00:27.280 likely because of the recent conversation I had on David 10 00:00:27.320 --> 00:00:31.760 Joseph Volotsko's Radicalist podcast about Hajamin now Husseini and his 11 00:00:31.920 --> 00:00:35.759 underrated role in Palestinian history. So give that a listen 12 00:00:35.799 --> 00:00:38.679 if you haven't already, And to those who found me 13 00:00:38.719 --> 00:00:41.840 through there, welcome and it's good to have you now. 14 00:00:41.880 --> 00:00:44.840 Also consider following History Impossible if you haven't already on 15 00:00:44.880 --> 00:00:48.479 all the social media's Instagram, Twitter, Facebook, and Twitch, last 16 00:00:48.479 --> 00:00:50.679 of which I try to stream mostly history based video 17 00:00:50.679 --> 00:00:54.280 games whenever possible, hoping to up that to a little 18 00:00:54.280 --> 00:00:58.079 more often in the near future. And if you can, 19 00:00:58.399 --> 00:01:01.039 please take a couple of minutes to rate and review 20 00:01:01.079 --> 00:01:04.239 the show over on Apple podcasts, and make sure to 21 00:01:04.280 --> 00:01:06.799 let all of your weird history loving friends know about 22 00:01:06.840 --> 00:01:09.879 the show now, as much as a donation or positive 23 00:01:09.920 --> 00:01:13.280 review would obviously be very appreciated. The big thing that 24 00:01:13.319 --> 00:01:14.799 all of you can do right now is tell as 25 00:01:14.799 --> 00:01:16.920 many people as you can about the show. So just 26 00:01:17.120 --> 00:01:20.159 tell them your favorite episode, shoot them a link directly 27 00:01:20.200 --> 00:01:23.079 to it, just basically spread the word how you can. 28 00:01:24.480 --> 00:01:26.640 The specific thing you can do, if you're subscribed on 29 00:01:26.719 --> 00:01:29.400 the substack is to forward the email that you get 30 00:01:29.680 --> 00:01:31.640 to one of your friends who might find it interesting. 31 00:01:31.799 --> 00:01:35.519 So every little bit helps. That's the important thing that 32 00:01:35.560 --> 00:01:39.280 I want to get across now. This particular episode, as 33 00:01:39.319 --> 00:01:43.079 you see in the title maybe from the description, already 34 00:01:43.799 --> 00:01:48.920 is a returning Champion, returning guest friend of the show, 35 00:01:49.000 --> 00:01:53.400 my pal CJ. Kilmer from the Dangerous History podcast. We 36 00:01:53.799 --> 00:01:55.519 got to catch up a little bit before recording. 37 00:01:55.560 --> 00:01:57.640 That was really nice and he's doing. 38 00:01:57.439 --> 00:02:00.439 Well, and it looks like the Woodrow Wilsons series is 39 00:02:00.480 --> 00:02:02.840 back on track as of this recording. He just released 40 00:02:02.879 --> 00:02:05.120 a it looks like an epic four and a half 41 00:02:05.159 --> 00:02:07.920 hour installment of that series. 42 00:02:08.400 --> 00:02:09.800 So I recommend going to check that out. 43 00:02:09.840 --> 00:02:13.199 But if you haven't already, go check out the episode 44 00:02:13.199 --> 00:02:15.759 he did before that. I believe it was one before 45 00:02:15.800 --> 00:02:20.599 that where he spoke about Woodrow Wilson's Eugenicist, because that 46 00:02:20.719 --> 00:02:23.520 is what we talk about in our conversation today, and 47 00:02:23.599 --> 00:02:27.400 about the eugenics movement itself and how it fits into 48 00:02:27.520 --> 00:02:32.919 the broader philosophy known as progressivism. We also had a 49 00:02:32.960 --> 00:02:35.759 little bit of a bonus chat about a film we 50 00:02:35.800 --> 00:02:39.240 both rewatched in preparation for this episode. I will not 51 00:02:39.280 --> 00:02:42.439 say anything more, so please give this episode a listen 52 00:02:42.479 --> 00:02:45.520 and hopefully find yourself surprised when you hear us talking 53 00:02:45.520 --> 00:02:49.960 about it, because hopefully, like us, you haven't thought about it. 54 00:02:49.960 --> 00:02:52.400 But now as soon as you are reminded of it, 55 00:02:52.400 --> 00:02:53.360 you'll go back and watch. 56 00:02:53.199 --> 00:02:54.360 It, because it's a really good movie. 57 00:02:54.400 --> 00:02:57.360 But I will say no more. So with all that said, 58 00:02:57.800 --> 00:03:01.800 let's get into some more impossible history. Well, let me 59 00:03:01.919 --> 00:03:03.680 to tell you what you would have seen and heard. 60 00:03:04.039 --> 00:03:05.479 If we're not do pleasant. 61 00:03:05.199 --> 00:03:07.759 Listening, if you're at lunch, or if you have no appetize, 62 00:03:07.759 --> 00:03:09.400 now is a good time to switch off the radio. 63 00:03:15.240 --> 00:03:17.879 An ancestor of mine main Chaine that if you eliminate 64 00:03:17.919 --> 00:03:21.840 the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, was. 65 00:03:22.759 --> 00:03:25.319 Neva Usten banjiant to that. 66 00:03:25.479 --> 00:03:27.199 You know GENEROPI one. 67 00:03:27.080 --> 00:03:31.080 Who knows that a unify some thousand years. 68 00:03:31.439 --> 00:03:34.240 I wish I could say tonight that a lasting peace 69 00:03:34.599 --> 00:03:37.479 is inside. I don't see in the laughing dream. 70 00:03:37.599 --> 00:03:39.360 I feel a laughing night bore. 71 00:03:43.520 --> 00:03:47.520 I pray if we hear were asue to Gail, if 72 00:03:47.520 --> 00:03:51.520 we share, we're asu to Gail. Some say the world. 73 00:03:51.280 --> 00:03:52.240 Will end in fire. 74 00:03:52.479 --> 00:03:55.800 Some stay anie. From what I've tested of desire, I 75 00:03:55.960 --> 00:03:58.840 hold of those of flavor fire. But if it had 76 00:03:58.879 --> 00:04:01.719 to perish twice, I think I know him a pok. 77 00:04:01.800 --> 00:04:05.000 Hate to say that for destruction, I say is also 78 00:04:05.080 --> 00:04:06.400 great and looks sufficed. 79 00:04:13.240 --> 00:04:15.400 This is history possible. 80 00:04:20.279 --> 00:04:23.920 I am happy to be joined by my longtime friend 81 00:04:23.920 --> 00:04:28.199 and comrade CJ. Kilmer of the Dangerous History podcast. Welcome 82 00:04:28.279 --> 00:04:31.160 back to the show. CJ. I am glad to see 83 00:04:31.160 --> 00:04:31.920 you're doing well. 84 00:04:32.720 --> 00:04:34.800 Thank you very much. I'm happy to be here. It's 85 00:04:35.000 --> 00:04:36.279 been a while since we've chatted. 86 00:04:36.920 --> 00:04:39.000 It has, yeah, I at least outside of like social 87 00:04:39.040 --> 00:04:41.720 media back and forth and all that. But yeah, yeah, 88 00:04:41.800 --> 00:04:45.360 But the main reason is because you did an episode 89 00:04:46.639 --> 00:04:48.720 as of this recording, I think what like a week ago, 90 00:04:48.920 --> 00:04:54.800 two weeks ago, Yeah, about Woodrow Wilson's eugenesist. We can 91 00:04:54.839 --> 00:04:58.439 call him a man named doctor Katzen Ellen Bogan, who 92 00:04:58.439 --> 00:05:00.519 you had talked about before in an earlier episode in 93 00:05:00.519 --> 00:05:05.720 your series. But what really got like got me going 94 00:05:05.759 --> 00:05:07.959 with this wasn't just the story of him and how 95 00:05:08.000 --> 00:05:12.160 he's connected to Wilson, but because you started talking about 96 00:05:12.720 --> 00:05:15.720 a subject that I guess I'll tell my audience now. 97 00:05:15.759 --> 00:05:17.920 I'm planning on doing a long form series on at 98 00:05:17.959 --> 00:05:20.519 some point in the future about the American eugenics movement, 99 00:05:21.319 --> 00:05:24.639 mostly because of how many people it implicates and just 100 00:05:24.680 --> 00:05:29.040 the disturbing, counterintuitive I guess we could say aspects of 101 00:05:29.079 --> 00:05:31.720 it that you talked about a bit, because you also 102 00:05:31.839 --> 00:05:35.079 cited two books I own right from the beginning, which 103 00:05:35.120 --> 00:05:39.199 is Edwin Black's War Against the Week, which I've read 104 00:05:39.240 --> 00:05:42.680 parts of but not in full yet. It's incredible. Edwin 105 00:05:42.720 --> 00:05:45.279 Black is a very good writer. I more used his 106 00:05:45.600 --> 00:05:49.319 I used his work in my currently ongoing series about 107 00:05:49.600 --> 00:05:52.199 the Muslims being used by the Third Reich. But also 108 00:05:52.800 --> 00:05:55.959 if I'm I don't remember his name, his last name 109 00:05:55.959 --> 00:05:56.720 is Leonard. 110 00:05:56.439 --> 00:05:57.480 Right, yeah, Thomas Leonard. 111 00:05:57.480 --> 00:06:01.399 I believe Thomas Leonard. Yeah, his his book illiberal reformers, 112 00:06:01.720 --> 00:06:03.160 I believe, is what it's called. Right. 113 00:06:03.399 --> 00:06:07.399 Yeah, Yeah, that's an interesting one too, because it's nominally 114 00:06:07.480 --> 00:06:12.000 about the way that eugenics sort of influenced progressive academics 115 00:06:12.079 --> 00:06:14.879 of the early twentieth century. Right, Really, it's about American 116 00:06:14.920 --> 00:06:18.839 eugenics as like an intellectual force, and in particular the 117 00:06:18.839 --> 00:06:21.439 way that it it in progressivism are like an almost 118 00:06:21.480 --> 00:06:24.399 one hundred percent overlapping Venn diagram of people and ideas. 119 00:06:24.920 --> 00:06:28.000 Absolutely, yeah, that's sort of what was really getting me interested. 120 00:06:28.079 --> 00:06:31.040 It actually was a subject that I came very close 121 00:06:31.079 --> 00:06:33.279 to making sort of the centerpiece of my thesis in 122 00:06:33.279 --> 00:06:35.319 grad school. I mean, I've gone a completely different direction 123 00:06:35.439 --> 00:06:40.279 since then, but it's such a fascinating legacy of thinking 124 00:06:40.360 --> 00:06:41.720 and I wanted to get into that with you a 125 00:06:41.759 --> 00:06:44.040 little bit here. But I think, you know, just because 126 00:06:44.079 --> 00:06:47.759 we like doing you know, this stuff on our podcast, 127 00:06:47.879 --> 00:06:51.000 Let's do some context here. Let's talk about the eugenics 128 00:06:51.040 --> 00:06:54.319 craze itself of the late nineteenth and early twentieth century, 129 00:06:54.399 --> 00:06:57.759 like what it was, what drove it, major players. I 130 00:06:57.800 --> 00:06:59.800 actually made a list of some names that I've come 131 00:06:59.879 --> 00:07:02.120 up that have come up more than once, and I'm 132 00:07:02.120 --> 00:07:05.439 sure you'll find all of them, if not, if not 133 00:07:05.920 --> 00:07:07.879 most of them, if not all of them familiar. But 134 00:07:08.279 --> 00:07:10.920 you know, we have a Darwin's cousin, Francis Galton. He's 135 00:07:10.959 --> 00:07:14.639 the inventor of eugenics. But then there's also guys like 136 00:07:14.759 --> 00:07:17.160 Madison Grant, who I didn't know this about him. He 137 00:07:17.199 --> 00:07:20.199 was the Bronx Zoo founder, but I'm more new him 138 00:07:20.199 --> 00:07:25.600 for his writing, known for his writing that is unbelievably 139 00:07:25.720 --> 00:07:29.079 Nazi es skin a lot of ways. And then we 140 00:07:29.160 --> 00:07:32.399 have this guy who I am more aware of than 141 00:07:32.519 --> 00:07:34.800 I think most people who's talking about eugenics, just because 142 00:07:34.800 --> 00:07:38.079 of where I'm from, and that's University of Minnesota medical 143 00:07:38.120 --> 00:07:42.279 professor Charles Fremont Ditte, who, until I just found out 144 00:07:42.360 --> 00:07:45.120 until two years ago, had a street named after him 145 00:07:45.480 --> 00:07:47.920 in my hometown of Minneapolis, and I always I always 146 00:07:47.959 --> 00:07:51.160 recognized Dyte Avenue. It was like this weird back avenue 147 00:07:51.160 --> 00:07:53.879 near the McDonald's I used to go to. But they 148 00:07:53.959 --> 00:07:56.240 finally renamed it. And that's one of those moments where 149 00:07:56.279 --> 00:07:59.120 I'm like, you know, maybe it's probably good to rename 150 00:07:59.199 --> 00:08:03.439 some things. Let's not honor a eugenicist who was a 151 00:08:03.439 --> 00:08:06.800 pen pal of Hitler's because that was dit in that case. 152 00:08:07.439 --> 00:08:09.480 But then you also have the American Museum of Natural 153 00:08:09.560 --> 00:08:12.720 History director H. Fairfield Osborne, and he was a noted 154 00:08:12.720 --> 00:08:15.439 anti semite. And of course I think this is the 155 00:08:15.439 --> 00:08:19.399 most controversial one, the early birth control pioneer Margaret Sanger. 156 00:08:20.279 --> 00:08:24.199 All these people were involved in the eugenics movement, in 157 00:08:24.279 --> 00:08:29.519 supporting it, like pushing it forward in their supposed research, 158 00:08:30.240 --> 00:08:34.039 and it also had this political angle to it. And 159 00:08:34.039 --> 00:08:36.320 I don't know if you have had a chance to 160 00:08:36.360 --> 00:08:38.240 read this book, if you've heard of it, and I'm 161 00:08:38.279 --> 00:08:39.879 actually holding it up so you can see it. It's 162 00:08:39.919 --> 00:08:45.519 called The Guarded Gate by Daniel Okrint, and he tries 163 00:08:45.559 --> 00:08:49.279 to demonstrate that this eugenics craze was actually what was 164 00:08:49.360 --> 00:08:52.879 used as a basis to restrict immigration between eighteen ninety 165 00:08:52.879 --> 00:08:55.519 one and nineteen twenty one. And it implicates a lot 166 00:08:55.559 --> 00:08:58.399 of politicians and probably one of your favorites is at 167 00:08:58.399 --> 00:09:01.720 the top of that list, and that's Henry Cabot Law. Yeah, 168 00:09:01.759 --> 00:09:04.879 but it also includes Teddy Roosevelt, Calvin Coolidge, so it's 169 00:09:05.120 --> 00:09:07.200 cross partisan in a lot of cases too. It was 170 00:09:07.240 --> 00:09:09.960 just my point of bringing up all these names is 171 00:09:10.000 --> 00:09:13.200 that it really was everywhere, and it really did sort 172 00:09:13.200 --> 00:09:14.799 of speak to the spirit of the time that you're 173 00:09:14.799 --> 00:09:17.320 sort of you know that you've talked about, but I 174 00:09:17.399 --> 00:09:18.720 want to turn it over to you to just like 175 00:09:18.759 --> 00:09:21.440 give us some background on this craze, on this movement, 176 00:09:21.559 --> 00:09:23.519 and just the broad strokes of it. 177 00:09:23.559 --> 00:09:29.679 I guess, yeah, yeah. So, in my mind, eugenics comes 178 00:09:29.679 --> 00:09:34.360 out of a combination of Darwinian science on the one 179 00:09:34.399 --> 00:09:39.399 hand and then progressive kind of politics and social science 180 00:09:39.440 --> 00:09:42.759 on the other. And it is, at least in its 181 00:09:42.759 --> 00:09:47.200 original form, it's primarily an Anglo American thing. It's mostly 182 00:09:47.799 --> 00:09:49.480 I mean, the Germans would develop sort of their own 183 00:09:49.559 --> 00:09:51.600 version of it, and then they would kind of take 184 00:09:51.639 --> 00:09:55.679 American progressive eugenics and you know, go off the rails 185 00:09:55.720 --> 00:09:59.799 even further into Nazism eventually. But really, the beginning of 186 00:09:59.840 --> 00:10:02.519 you genics in the late nineteenth century, as far as 187 00:10:02.519 --> 00:10:06.320 I'm aware, is mostly a bunch of these Transatlantic elites. 188 00:10:07.039 --> 00:10:12.600 And the first book where I've really bumped into the 189 00:10:12.600 --> 00:10:17.240 Transatlantic aspect and really into a lot of the ideas 190 00:10:17.240 --> 00:10:21.559 behind eugenics, not not so much eugenics itself, is there's 191 00:10:21.600 --> 00:10:24.120 a very interesting kind of hard to find. Luckily, I 192 00:10:24.159 --> 00:10:27.879 have a copy history book. It's called Race and Reprochemont 193 00:10:28.600 --> 00:10:31.879 and the author's name, if I remember right, is Stuart Anderson, 194 00:10:32.879 --> 00:10:39.320 and it the subtitle is something like Anglo Saxonism and 195 00:10:40.559 --> 00:10:45.320 I forget American and British special relationship or you know, 196 00:10:45.399 --> 00:10:47.159 something like that. I know I'm way off in the 197 00:10:47.159 --> 00:10:50.960 exact words, but basically makes the argument that there's this 198 00:10:51.000 --> 00:10:54.840 weird thing where, you know, prior to say, the mid 199 00:10:54.919 --> 00:11:00.000 to late eighteen nineties, Americans, including a lot of America's leaders, 200 00:11:00.840 --> 00:11:05.799 tended to see the British as like the biggest threat. 201 00:11:05.919 --> 00:11:07.600 And then eventually when that sort of simmered down a 202 00:11:07.600 --> 00:11:09.759 little bit at least as a rival, and you know, 203 00:11:09.759 --> 00:11:11.639 you go back to the days like Andrew Jackson and 204 00:11:11.679 --> 00:11:14.840 whatever it's like to them. Even though Andrew Jackson, you know, 205 00:11:15.039 --> 00:11:18.519 was of Scott Scottish, Scott's Irish kind of ancestry or whatever, 206 00:11:18.679 --> 00:11:20.519 he still saw the British as the enemy. He saw 207 00:11:20.559 --> 00:11:23.120 him as the guys as much as he hated the Indians. 208 00:11:23.159 --> 00:11:25.759 He tended to think that like behind every Indian attack 209 00:11:25.960 --> 00:11:28.320 was like scheming Brits, putting them up to it on 210 00:11:28.360 --> 00:11:29.320 the frontier and stuff. 211 00:11:29.360 --> 00:11:31.360 Well that's part of a tradition, right just to just 212 00:11:31.399 --> 00:11:33.519 to click side, because I mean that that just seems 213 00:11:33.519 --> 00:11:36.159 to be kind of like a generational holdover of well, 214 00:11:36.320 --> 00:11:38.960 the Revolution and the War of eighteen twelve, especially when 215 00:11:39.039 --> 00:11:40.440 Jackson's case, I would say. 216 00:11:41.039 --> 00:11:43.759 Yeah, yeah, But then for a long time, for a 217 00:11:43.799 --> 00:11:46.840 long time though, the British were still seen sometimes with 218 00:11:47.000 --> 00:11:51.120 justification as a threat. You know, they still had Canada 219 00:11:51.639 --> 00:11:55.720 right on America's northern frontier and border issues between the 220 00:11:55.840 --> 00:11:58.480 US and Britain over you know, the border between American 221 00:11:58.519 --> 00:12:02.200 and Canadian territory continued throughout the nineteenth century in various places. 222 00:12:02.720 --> 00:12:05.480 And you know, as the US started to get more 223 00:12:05.480 --> 00:12:08.360 immigrants from places like Ireland, it was also a way 224 00:12:08.480 --> 00:12:11.080 they call it twisting the lion's tail. It was a 225 00:12:11.120 --> 00:12:16.360 way too. You know, Let's say you're politician campaigning in 226 00:12:16.360 --> 00:12:19.600 a heavily Irish part of a big northern city. I 227 00:12:19.879 --> 00:12:21.720 talked some shit about the Limeys, and you know, it's 228 00:12:21.720 --> 00:12:23.840 a great way to get get your make voters to 229 00:12:24.480 --> 00:12:26.600 you know, go out and fire up the base for 230 00:12:26.639 --> 00:12:28.639 you if you're a Democrat. You know, back then, I. 231 00:12:28.639 --> 00:12:31.080 Think that would still work for me at this point, honestly. 232 00:12:32.279 --> 00:12:34.399 Yeah, especially in light of what they're doing as far 233 00:12:34.440 --> 00:12:37.279 as you know, completely obliterating free speech and threatening to 234 00:12:37.320 --> 00:12:40.720 extradite people of other countries that are slightly less unfree. 235 00:12:41.159 --> 00:12:42.759 We're going to be talking about We're going to be 236 00:12:42.759 --> 00:12:47.039 talking about predictive, a particular predictive movie at some point 237 00:12:47.399 --> 00:12:51.159 in this conversation. But to just bring up another one, sorry, 238 00:12:51.240 --> 00:12:53.279 to seem like Children of Men is coming to pass, 239 00:12:53.320 --> 00:12:56.559 at least in the Great Britain context. Let's hope things 240 00:12:56.559 --> 00:13:00.679 don't get that bad though. Yeah, yeah, yeah, anyway, I'll 241 00:13:00.720 --> 00:13:01.360 let you contigue. 242 00:13:01.399 --> 00:13:05.480 Sorry, so yeah, So, this this very interesting book, Race 243 00:13:05.519 --> 00:13:09.080 and Reproachemont tries to answer this question of like, how 244 00:13:09.120 --> 00:13:11.679 come right around the end of the nineteenth century into 245 00:13:11.679 --> 00:13:13.440 the very first years of the early nineteenth century or 246 00:13:13.480 --> 00:13:16.759 early twentieth century, how come all of a sudden, the US, 247 00:13:18.039 --> 00:13:21.000 especially in terms of its political class, goes from seeing 248 00:13:21.000 --> 00:13:23.240 it portraying the Brits as like the biggest potential rival 249 00:13:23.279 --> 00:13:26.960 and even threat to there are best buddies, we need 250 00:13:27.000 --> 00:13:29.279 to have a special relationship. We're going to bail their 251 00:13:29.320 --> 00:13:31.279 asses out in World War One in the name of 252 00:13:31.519 --> 00:13:37.440 you know, saving democracy worldwide and whatever. And he argues 253 00:13:37.480 --> 00:13:40.600 that a lot of it is this racialist this racialist 254 00:13:40.639 --> 00:13:44.919 ideology which you know has a whole lot to it 255 00:13:45.159 --> 00:13:47.440 that I can't do justice here, but you know, it's 256 00:13:47.480 --> 00:13:50.759 the idea that the the Anglo Saxons are the most 257 00:13:51.440 --> 00:13:54.799 advanced quote unquote race on earth in every way, including 258 00:13:54.840 --> 00:13:57.679 by the way, they're more advanced than the Saxon Saxons 259 00:13:57.720 --> 00:14:00.600 from from which they're derived somehow, which always interesting that 260 00:14:01.000 --> 00:14:02.799 you know, you would claim the Anglo Saxons are the 261 00:14:02.799 --> 00:14:05.519 greatest race in the world and the Germans are horrible? 262 00:14:06.279 --> 00:14:08.200 Who do you think where do you think Saxony is? 263 00:14:08.279 --> 00:14:13.240 You know, but well, this racialist idea. 264 00:14:13.039 --> 00:14:16.519 I just wanted to introduce real quick that that's you're 265 00:14:16.559 --> 00:14:20.679 what you're talking about, is that Anglo Saxonism that you've 266 00:14:20.720 --> 00:14:23.679 spoken about, and that if I remember right, and I 267 00:14:23.720 --> 00:14:26.279 feel like I do, Woodrow Wilson's a giant fan of that. 268 00:14:27.120 --> 00:14:28.320 Oh for sure. 269 00:14:28.320 --> 00:14:29.919 I didn't want to jump shun, but I just wanted 270 00:14:29.960 --> 00:14:30.879 to throw that out there. 271 00:14:31.480 --> 00:14:36.720 Yeah. Yeah, most progressive politicians of the era of progressivism 272 00:14:37.000 --> 00:14:40.200 one point zero, the era of Woodrow Wilson, Teddy Roosevelt, 273 00:14:40.240 --> 00:14:44.759 those guys, overwhelmingly, almost all of them were Anglo Saxonists 274 00:14:44.799 --> 00:14:47.440 with with very few exceptions, and you know, some of 275 00:14:47.440 --> 00:14:49.799 them eventually made their peace with the idea that some 276 00:14:49.840 --> 00:14:55.120 other white people can be part of America too, although 277 00:14:55.120 --> 00:14:56.519 in some cases I wonder how much of it was 278 00:14:56.519 --> 00:14:59.120 genuine and how much was it was just that they realized, like, 279 00:14:59.159 --> 00:15:01.679 all right, we want to given what's happened in terms 280 00:15:01.720 --> 00:15:04.440 of immigration, Yeah, I gotta get some Irish and maybe 281 00:15:04.440 --> 00:15:06.279 even some damn Italian votes to win. 282 00:15:06.480 --> 00:15:08.840 So you know, I mean, maybe we gotta be nice 283 00:15:08.840 --> 00:15:12.799 of the Jews a little bit, but we're not gonna 284 00:15:12.840 --> 00:15:14.720 let them in our country clubs. Don't worry. 285 00:15:15.039 --> 00:15:17.279 Yeah, yeah, yeah, we just you know, want them to 286 00:15:17.320 --> 00:15:20.600 funder campaign. Yeah, that's a whole. 287 00:15:20.480 --> 00:15:23.639 Other subject of progressive anti semitism that you know that 288 00:15:23.639 --> 00:15:25.840 that that's a that's a tangent. We'll we'll, we'll leave 289 00:15:25.879 --> 00:15:27.440 that for another day, I think. 290 00:15:27.759 --> 00:15:29.120 Yeah, yeah. 291 00:15:29.159 --> 00:15:29.399 Yeah. 292 00:15:29.440 --> 00:15:32.639 So So there's this idea that comes out of of 293 00:15:32.720 --> 00:15:36.559 certain prominent families in both the US and UK, and 294 00:15:39.600 --> 00:15:45.320 it is is kind of building on ideas of Darwinism, Darwinism, 295 00:15:45.399 --> 00:15:49.360 taking them in ways that I think Darwin might have 296 00:15:49.440 --> 00:15:54.320 actually agreed with, but that don't necessarily don't necessarily stem 297 00:15:54.360 --> 00:15:58.960 from just basic ideas of things, you know, like survival 298 00:15:59.000 --> 00:16:01.679 of the fittest and you know, explaining how the origins 299 00:16:01.720 --> 00:16:04.360 of different species and whatever doesn't necessarily mean you have 300 00:16:04.399 --> 00:16:07.120 to conclude that, you know, the people of this part 301 00:16:07.120 --> 00:16:09.000 of Europe are superior to the people of that part 302 00:16:09.039 --> 00:16:11.120 of Europe, who are all superior to the people of 303 00:16:11.159 --> 00:16:14.840 this other continent next door and whatever. But you know, 304 00:16:14.919 --> 00:16:18.440 that's that's what they believe. And now if you believe that, 305 00:16:18.679 --> 00:16:20.679 then there's all kinds of things that stem from this. 306 00:16:20.799 --> 00:16:23.039 I mean, you could go in a las a fair direction. 307 00:16:24.000 --> 00:16:26.159 There were some people who kind of had some Anglo 308 00:16:26.200 --> 00:16:28.879 Saxonist racial ideas but were also kind of libertarian, which 309 00:16:29.080 --> 00:16:31.600 just like, well, you know, that's fine, the more advanced 310 00:16:31.679 --> 00:16:35.120 races are going to succeed, just leave things alone. But 311 00:16:35.240 --> 00:16:38.799 progressives are never comfortable with leaving anything alone, and they 312 00:16:38.840 --> 00:16:41.440 believe that you have to have interventionism into everything or 313 00:16:41.440 --> 00:16:42.200 else it won't work. 314 00:16:42.279 --> 00:16:42.440 Right. 315 00:16:42.720 --> 00:16:45.120 They're very much OCD control freaks. And so if you 316 00:16:45.159 --> 00:16:48.720 give somebody with that sort of psychology and attitude this 317 00:16:48.879 --> 00:16:51.080 idea that some races are spirit to others, they are 318 00:16:51.080 --> 00:16:54.440 going to say, well, well, we can't just leave things 319 00:16:54.440 --> 00:16:56.840 to chance to let them work work itself out, like 320 00:16:56.919 --> 00:17:00.840 we have to intervene positively. They would say multiple you know, 321 00:17:00.960 --> 00:17:06.279 connotations of the word in order to actively encourage certain 322 00:17:06.279 --> 00:17:09.720 people to reproduce more and actively discourage other people from reproducing. 323 00:17:10.759 --> 00:17:14.200 And there's a racialist aspect to it, for sure, but 324 00:17:14.440 --> 00:17:17.279 there's also non racialist aspects. A lot of it also 325 00:17:17.400 --> 00:17:20.599 had to do with labeling people, regardless of race as 326 00:17:20.640 --> 00:17:23.519 being defective or feeble minded or all these other you 327 00:17:23.519 --> 00:17:25.839 know we get words like moron and imbecil come from 328 00:17:25.880 --> 00:17:30.279 these people. These were originally scientific terms. They had charts 329 00:17:30.279 --> 00:17:32.640 and things of like rating different levels of idiocy. 330 00:17:32.720 --> 00:17:37.400 Yeah, you brought up the famous, infamous and heartbreaking case 331 00:17:37.440 --> 00:17:41.319 of Carrie Buck in your story, which she was sterilized 332 00:17:41.680 --> 00:17:44.079 and she was considered feeble minded, as was the term 333 00:17:44.119 --> 00:17:48.079 I believe they used. The Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes and 334 00:17:48.119 --> 00:17:52.519 his infinite wisdom wrote the I think concurring opinion on 335 00:17:52.559 --> 00:17:55.000 that in the Supreme Court. I'm getting the year right, 336 00:17:55.039 --> 00:17:57.039 It was nineteen twenty one, I want to say a 337 00:17:57.079 --> 00:17:59.920 little bit later on later it was twenty seven, oh right, right, yes, yes, 338 00:18:00.440 --> 00:18:07.599 but regardless Carrie Buck was raped by I believe. I 339 00:18:07.640 --> 00:18:08.839 don't want to make this up. I don't want to 340 00:18:08.839 --> 00:18:10.200 say it was a member of her family, but she 341 00:18:10.359 --> 00:18:13.599 was raped and was forced to carry the baby to term, 342 00:18:14.240 --> 00:18:17.279 and then was sterilized afterward by order of the court 343 00:18:17.319 --> 00:18:20.960 because she was seen as a defective. And those laws, 344 00:18:21.000 --> 00:18:23.319 as you also mentioned in your episode in some parts 345 00:18:23.319 --> 00:18:26.880 of the country, stayed in place until the seventies, and 346 00:18:27.000 --> 00:18:29.880 you know, they weren't enforced in the way that they 347 00:18:29.880 --> 00:18:33.759 were in the twenties, but they were there. And you know, 348 00:18:34.039 --> 00:18:36.640 again I got to, you know, bring up my alma mater. 349 00:18:36.759 --> 00:18:40.400 The University of Minnesota was one of the academic institutions 350 00:18:40.400 --> 00:18:43.920 at the forefront of this movement. They were very much well, 351 00:18:44.160 --> 00:18:48.559 it's funny. They had a I believe this is actually 352 00:18:48.599 --> 00:18:51.240 the guy I mentioned earlier, Charles Dight. I believe he 353 00:18:51.319 --> 00:18:55.000 founded it. They had the Eugenic Society, the Minnesota Eugenic Society, 354 00:18:55.640 --> 00:19:00.640 And technically that society, or that depart meant rather at 355 00:19:00.680 --> 00:19:03.519 the U of M, still exists. They just want under 356 00:19:03.519 --> 00:19:05.160 a name change. And I couldn't tell you off the 357 00:19:05.200 --> 00:19:06.680 top of my head what that name change is, but 358 00:19:06.720 --> 00:19:10.079 it's one of those things where it's more about rebranding 359 00:19:10.160 --> 00:19:14.440 than actually questioning what we're really doing and what we're 360 00:19:14.480 --> 00:19:16.880 actually talking about here. Now I'm not employed. I don't 361 00:19:16.880 --> 00:19:19.079 want to make it sound like I'm implying that they're 362 00:19:19.240 --> 00:19:22.240 still engaging in secret eugenics. I'm just kind of, yes, 363 00:19:22.319 --> 00:19:24.319 adding the idea that you brought up that this is 364 00:19:24.359 --> 00:19:27.079 about a certain type of psychology at work. 365 00:19:27.480 --> 00:19:31.359 Yeah, yeah, And they kind of blended together, you know, 366 00:19:31.759 --> 00:19:34.960 various types of what we would consider physical and mental handicaps, 367 00:19:35.400 --> 00:19:37.799 along with various types of you know, what we might 368 00:19:37.839 --> 00:19:43.079 call maybe mental illness or mental abnormality, maybe even in 369 00:19:43.079 --> 00:19:49.400 today's chronology neuroetypical things sometimes blended with racism. But yeahs, 370 00:19:49.519 --> 00:19:52.160 as Buck v. Bell shows, and as lots of things show, 371 00:19:52.200 --> 00:19:58.319 actually progressive eugenesis, Anglo American eugenesis of the turn of 372 00:19:58.359 --> 00:20:03.400 the last century, they often as much as we we 373 00:20:03.519 --> 00:20:06.640 focus on their racism towards you know, non whites and things, 374 00:20:06.680 --> 00:20:08.519 which is definitely definitely part of the mix. 375 00:20:08.559 --> 00:20:09.160 Oh yeah. 376 00:20:09.200 --> 00:20:12.880 They also really had a lot of hatred and contempt 377 00:20:13.119 --> 00:20:17.119 for lower class whites, including even lower class like Anglo Saxons, 378 00:20:17.160 --> 00:20:21.359 like they really looked down heavily on things like say, 379 00:20:21.359 --> 00:20:24.759 the white folks of Appalachia, even though technically those are 380 00:20:24.759 --> 00:20:29.559 mostly like Anglo Saxon people. Those are mostly English, Scottish, Scots, 381 00:20:29.599 --> 00:20:32.240 Irish and a little bit of German in a few places. 382 00:20:32.640 --> 00:20:35.799 That's your that's your appellations, that's your Hillbillies. And yet 383 00:20:35.799 --> 00:20:38.319 they would see those as like sometimes it almost comes 384 00:20:38.359 --> 00:20:41.799 across like they they have the most contempt for those people, 385 00:20:42.640 --> 00:20:45.079 even more so than like black people or whatever, because 386 00:20:45.119 --> 00:20:47.400 like almost like they should be better, you know. But right, 387 00:20:47.440 --> 00:20:48.960 it's like, look at them, they're white, but they're like 388 00:20:49.000 --> 00:20:51.000 they're like they're defective white people. 389 00:20:51.079 --> 00:20:53.039 Right. It's it's something that we've talked about before that, 390 00:20:53.400 --> 00:20:56.559 you know, the progressive mindset, whether you're talking about one 391 00:20:56.559 --> 00:20:58.640 point zero or four point oh, it doesn't really matter 392 00:20:58.680 --> 00:21:01.279 which version is that it's very much driven by the 393 00:21:01.279 --> 00:21:04.640 soft bigotry of low expectations. Probably the best thing we've 394 00:21:04.640 --> 00:21:07.680 been we were granted by George W. Bush is that 395 00:21:07.680 --> 00:21:08.400 that Yeah. 396 00:21:08.480 --> 00:21:10.599 Yeah, And I wonder if he actually came up with 397 00:21:10.640 --> 00:21:13.559 that that phrase, or somebody smarter wrote it for. 398 00:21:13.559 --> 00:21:15.880 Him, you know, I mean, yeah, it's possible. I mean, 399 00:21:15.880 --> 00:21:19.359 but I regardless, he deserves credit for making it a 400 00:21:20.000 --> 00:21:23.559 very I really like that concept. It's a very real concept. 401 00:21:23.559 --> 00:21:26.119