1 00:00:01,120 --> 00:00:04,160 Speaker 1: You're listening to the Mind Over Murder podcast. 2 00:00:06,000 --> 00:00:09,679 Speaker 2: My name is Bill Thomas. I'm a writer, consulting, producer, 3 00:00:09,720 --> 00:00:12,839 and now podcaster. I am now trying to use my 4 00:00:12,919 --> 00:00:15,800 experience as the brother of a murder victim to help 5 00:00:15,880 --> 00:00:18,600 other victims of violent crime. I'm working on a book 6 00:00:18,679 --> 00:00:21,440 on the unsolved Colonial Parkway murders, and I'm the co 7 00:00:21,519 --> 00:00:24,760 administrator of the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook group together with 8 00:00:24,839 --> 00:00:25,519 Kristin Dilly. 9 00:00:26,079 --> 00:00:29,120 Speaker 3: My name is Kristin Dilly. I'm a writer, a researcher, 10 00:00:29,320 --> 00:00:32,079 a teacher, and a victim's advocate, as well as the 11 00:00:32,119 --> 00:00:35,840 social media manager and co administrator for the Colonial Parkway 12 00:00:35,880 --> 00:00:39,079 Murders Facebook page with my partner in crime, Bill Thomas. 13 00:00:42,359 --> 00:00:45,280 Welcome to Mind Ever Murderer. I'm Kristin Dilly and I'm 14 00:00:45,280 --> 00:00:49,399 Bill Thomas. We're joined today by Edna Cowell Martin, author 15 00:00:49,520 --> 00:00:52,960 of Dark Tide, Growing Up with Ted Bundy. Edna, thank 16 00:00:52,960 --> 00:00:54,439 you so much for joining us today. 17 00:00:55,079 --> 00:00:57,679 Speaker 4: Thank you for having me start by. 18 00:00:57,560 --> 00:00:59,320 Speaker 3: Telling us a little bit about yourself. 19 00:01:00,719 --> 00:01:05,120 Speaker 4: Well, I am a retired person now, which is exciting. 20 00:01:05,599 --> 00:01:08,000 I worked quite a bit into my early I just 21 00:01:08,040 --> 00:01:10,319 turned seventy a couple of years ago. Which is kind 22 00:01:10,319 --> 00:01:13,560 of what instigated all of this. And I live in 23 00:01:13,599 --> 00:01:16,879 the Seattle, Washington area, which is right in the heart 24 00:01:17,000 --> 00:01:20,120 of everything that was happening with Ted Bundy, and I 25 00:01:20,200 --> 00:01:23,439 am Ted's cousin, or I was his cousin. And this 26 00:01:23,640 --> 00:01:26,480 was a story that I had been keeping really literally 27 00:01:26,719 --> 00:01:29,640 to myself for the last fifty years. Felt like I 28 00:01:29,640 --> 00:01:32,120 couldn't keep it bottled up any longer. I needed to 29 00:01:32,120 --> 00:01:34,680 get it out. So that's what has brought me to 30 00:01:34,719 --> 00:01:36,519 the point of writing a book about it. 31 00:01:37,359 --> 00:01:40,560 Speaker 2: So map out the family connection, if you will, the 32 00:01:40,599 --> 00:01:43,439 moms and dads and cousins and all that stuff. 33 00:01:44,040 --> 00:01:47,480 Speaker 4: Louise Bundy is Ted's mom, My parents, all of us 34 00:01:47,519 --> 00:01:50,760 grew up. All of them grew up in the Philadelphia area. 35 00:01:51,319 --> 00:01:53,239 So my dad was the youngest of seven kids, and 36 00:01:53,280 --> 00:01:57,239 his very oldest sibling was Samuel Cowell, who is the 37 00:01:57,239 --> 00:02:01,400 father of Louise, and he had three daughters. The oldest 38 00:02:01,480 --> 00:02:06,640 daughter was Louise. Sometime during nineteen forty six, she gave 39 00:02:06,680 --> 00:02:10,159 birth to a little boy, and it turns out that 40 00:02:10,800 --> 00:02:13,400 she was not married to this guy. It was they 41 00:02:13,439 --> 00:02:16,120 called them, you know, unwed mothers or you know. It 42 00:02:16,319 --> 00:02:18,879 just they had pejorative terms for them. At that time, 43 00:02:19,520 --> 00:02:23,400 my parents had moved before that. They had moved to 44 00:02:24,159 --> 00:02:26,199 or not long before that, they had moved to the 45 00:02:26,199 --> 00:02:29,599 state of Washington to follow my mom's parents. My dad, 46 00:02:29,719 --> 00:02:32,039 my grandfather moved out and had a job with the 47 00:02:32,159 --> 00:02:35,240 Seattle Gas Company at the time, so my parents were 48 00:02:35,240 --> 00:02:38,039 already out here, and because of what she was going 49 00:02:38,080 --> 00:02:40,759 through and ted she called them teddy at the time, 50 00:02:41,400 --> 00:02:44,319 at age four, was starting to sort of strike out, 51 00:02:44,360 --> 00:02:48,199 ask questions and she was dealing with a lot of 52 00:02:48,280 --> 00:02:51,599 negativity about being a single mom. So my dad reached 53 00:02:51,599 --> 00:02:54,360 out to her and said, hey, you need to consider 54 00:02:54,719 --> 00:02:58,400 moving to the state of Washington. That's, you know, three 55 00:02:58,479 --> 00:03:02,039 thousand miles from there, and it gives you an opportunity 56 00:03:02,280 --> 00:03:05,560 to create a whole new narrative about your life. She 57 00:03:05,879 --> 00:03:08,960 subsequently changed her last name, took him up on it, 58 00:03:09,080 --> 00:03:12,479 and moved out to Washington. And at that point, my 59 00:03:12,599 --> 00:03:15,520 parents had moved down to Tacoma from so from Seattle, 60 00:03:15,520 --> 00:03:18,000 that's about thirty five miles and my dad got a 61 00:03:18,120 --> 00:03:22,039 job at the University Puget Sound at the time, he 62 00:03:22,080 --> 00:03:24,759 was a music professor. So my parents also had a 63 00:03:24,800 --> 00:03:27,159 four year old son, so they opened up their doors 64 00:03:27,240 --> 00:03:30,319 to Louise and her four year old son. With two 65 00:03:30,400 --> 00:03:32,840 four year olds, I'm sure my mom, I can just 66 00:03:34,080 --> 00:03:36,960 he's this elegant lady. She grew up in a well 67 00:03:37,000 --> 00:03:40,080 to do household, and she had a nanny and other people, 68 00:03:40,120 --> 00:03:42,000 and now she's on her own and she's got two 69 00:03:42,039 --> 00:03:45,199 crazy four year old kids. But the interesting thing is that, 70 00:03:45,439 --> 00:03:49,400 for up until I wrote this book, everybody thought that 71 00:03:49,599 --> 00:03:52,520 Louise Bundy and Ted Bundy came out and stayed with 72 00:03:52,560 --> 00:03:57,039 somebody called Alan and Jane Scott, and that was another 73 00:03:57,120 --> 00:03:58,840 author who had written a book, one of the first 74 00:03:58,840 --> 00:04:02,520 books about Ted Bundy had used pseudonyms, and I'm forever 75 00:04:02,599 --> 00:04:06,360 grateful for her wo to her for doing that, because 76 00:04:06,400 --> 00:04:08,000 that was one of the ways that we were able 77 00:04:08,039 --> 00:04:10,680 to stay out of the limelight. So that's a connection. 78 00:04:10,960 --> 00:04:14,960 So the only relatives that the Bundies Louise and Ted 79 00:04:15,080 --> 00:04:18,079 had in the state of Washington was us. That's how 80 00:04:18,079 --> 00:04:19,199 we became close. 81 00:04:20,120 --> 00:04:23,199 Speaker 3: And it sounds like from reading the book, you almost 82 00:04:23,319 --> 00:04:25,519 sort of grew up with Ted kind of like a 83 00:04:25,560 --> 00:04:29,800 brother figure along with your own brother. Would you characterize 84 00:04:29,839 --> 00:04:32,079 him like that as almost brotherly towards you. 85 00:04:32,240 --> 00:04:34,600 Speaker 4: Well, he was he was just he was like a 86 00:04:34,600 --> 00:04:37,439 big brother to me. He was five years older as 87 00:04:37,600 --> 00:04:40,720 was my brother, and so actually, you know, growing up, 88 00:04:40,759 --> 00:04:43,480 they hung out a lot together and I became friends 89 00:04:43,480 --> 00:04:45,959 with his younger siblings. He was a great guy. He 90 00:04:46,040 --> 00:04:50,000 was always so nice and friendly, and we really enjoyed 91 00:04:50,040 --> 00:04:53,079 it when we had our family get togethers. We had 92 00:04:53,120 --> 00:04:54,920 a cabin in addition to our house. We had a 93 00:04:54,959 --> 00:04:57,639 cabin on Pewtet Sound, and so they would join us 94 00:04:57,639 --> 00:04:59,639 for picnics and events and things like that. And he 95 00:04:59,759 --> 00:05:02,040 love to come out to the beach, and so we 96 00:05:02,079 --> 00:05:04,279 would spend a lot of time. We had three boats, 97 00:05:04,519 --> 00:05:06,600 so you could row a boat or take a little 98 00:05:06,639 --> 00:05:09,480 put putt boat or if you were really gregarious. I've 99 00:05:09,480 --> 00:05:12,879 always been super into doing all kinds of things, so 100 00:05:12,959 --> 00:05:15,639 I was heavy into water skiing, so I was always 101 00:05:15,680 --> 00:05:18,639 happy to if anybody wanted to do that. We saw 102 00:05:18,680 --> 00:05:21,079 a lot of them. And then we moved away because 103 00:05:21,079 --> 00:05:23,720 my dad got a job as a chairman of a 104 00:05:23,800 --> 00:05:27,959 music department at a university in the South. We left beautiful, 105 00:05:28,480 --> 00:05:33,199 cool Washington then moved to the heat of the South. 106 00:05:33,279 --> 00:05:36,920 And that was such a trick, believe it, humidity like 107 00:05:36,959 --> 00:05:38,079 I'd never seen before. 108 00:05:38,160 --> 00:05:42,759 Speaker 3: And so many bugs, Yes, so many bugs, too many bugs. 109 00:05:42,839 --> 00:05:44,839 I apologize on behalf of the South for all of 110 00:05:44,839 --> 00:05:45,879 our humidity and bugs. 111 00:05:45,879 --> 00:05:46,399 Speaker 2: It's awful. 112 00:05:46,800 --> 00:05:49,399 Speaker 4: Oh gosh, it was, you know. I was an eye opener, 113 00:05:49,639 --> 00:05:52,120 Thank goodness. I had a great biology teacher in high 114 00:05:52,120 --> 00:05:54,319 school that made us go out and categorize them so 115 00:05:54,360 --> 00:05:56,279 I could learn what they were, and that took away 116 00:05:56,319 --> 00:05:57,879 my fear of them. But when I first got there, 117 00:05:57,879 --> 00:06:00,680 I was terrified. So it was crazy. So I didn't 118 00:06:00,720 --> 00:06:03,199 see Ted for a while while we were living there, 119 00:06:03,240 --> 00:06:06,000 although he did come through and visit at one point. 120 00:06:06,519 --> 00:06:11,000 Speaker 2: A lot of people have talked about how charming Bundy was, 121 00:06:11,199 --> 00:06:14,439 and I've never met the man obviously, but I sort 122 00:06:14,439 --> 00:06:16,920 of pushed back on some of that. But you actually 123 00:06:17,240 --> 00:06:20,759 knew Ted and were related to him. So is he 124 00:06:20,839 --> 00:06:23,040 as charming as people make him out to be. 125 00:06:23,560 --> 00:06:27,759 Speaker 4: He was very charming. He managed to put everybody at ease. 126 00:06:28,279 --> 00:06:32,319 He had a great smile and sparkling blue eyes. When 127 00:06:32,319 --> 00:06:36,079 he was around me and my friends, we were all 128 00:06:36,120 --> 00:06:40,000 impressed by him. I moved back to the Seattle area 129 00:06:40,199 --> 00:06:42,120 to finish up my junior and senior year at the 130 00:06:42,199 --> 00:06:44,519 University of Washington. I couldn't wait to come back. That's 131 00:06:44,560 --> 00:06:47,399 when I became really close to Ted, So we were 132 00:06:47,680 --> 00:06:50,040 much more on the same plane at that time. I 133 00:06:50,120 --> 00:06:52,600 was much more grown up as a college student. He 134 00:06:52,759 --> 00:06:55,639 was already out of undergraduate school at that time, but 135 00:06:55,680 --> 00:06:59,639 he still lived in the university district. So he lived 136 00:06:59,680 --> 00:07:03,360 in a rooming house just a few blocks from my apartment. 137 00:07:03,720 --> 00:07:05,399 And then he also had a girlfriend at the time 138 00:07:05,439 --> 00:07:07,600 that he would stay with, so he would alternate between 139 00:07:07,639 --> 00:07:10,920 those two places, and so we saw each other a lot. 140 00:07:10,959 --> 00:07:13,759 And when you ask about him being charming, he would 141 00:07:13,759 --> 00:07:16,680 come over and drop by my apartment, and that's when 142 00:07:16,680 --> 00:07:18,600 I saw him quite a lot, and he became really 143 00:07:18,720 --> 00:07:22,600 close as adults, and my roommates loved him. We all 144 00:07:22,800 --> 00:07:25,720 loved him. He was charming, and he would tell us 145 00:07:25,759 --> 00:07:28,680 all these great stories about all these things he was doing, 146 00:07:29,079 --> 00:07:31,560 and so we would sit around in awe of this guy. 147 00:07:31,600 --> 00:07:33,879 And he loved being the center of attention. 148 00:07:34,839 --> 00:07:37,959 Speaker 3: You know, you mentioned at various times in the book 149 00:07:38,000 --> 00:07:41,439 that you could see these traits in him, like that 150 00:07:41,439 --> 00:07:44,600 that brilliant charisma that need to be the center of 151 00:07:44,639 --> 00:07:48,839 attention that he would later use to gain women's trust 152 00:07:49,199 --> 00:07:53,199 to their detriment. Of course, do you ever find yourself 153 00:07:53,279 --> 00:07:57,000 looking back on your interactions with Ted and second guessing 154 00:07:57,000 --> 00:08:00,040 them or even third guessing them, Well, of course. 155 00:08:00,319 --> 00:08:02,839 Speaker 4: You know, especially doing this project and all the research 156 00:08:02,879 --> 00:08:06,199 we had to do, and finally facing up to my 157 00:08:06,319 --> 00:08:09,199 relationship with him, because I didn't want anybody to know 158 00:08:09,319 --> 00:08:12,160 I was related to a serial killer. I mean, who 159 00:08:12,199 --> 00:08:16,480 wants to be identified with somebody who murdered young women 160 00:08:16,560 --> 00:08:20,120 who were my contemporaries. You know, my heart going out 161 00:08:20,160 --> 00:08:23,439 to these families and just crying for them. All During 162 00:08:23,439 --> 00:08:26,800 this time, Ted is coming over and we're talking about 163 00:08:26,800 --> 00:08:30,959 these things, how scared we were. He's disagreeing that it's 164 00:08:31,000 --> 00:08:34,879 just an awful, awful thing. Yes, he could be so charming, 165 00:08:35,080 --> 00:08:38,279 and I do feel that, just as you describe, he 166 00:08:38,519 --> 00:08:41,679 used that to his advantage because he was able to 167 00:08:41,720 --> 00:08:46,000 disarm people, you felt comfortable around him. He used this 168 00:08:46,159 --> 00:08:47,440 to approach young women. 169 00:08:48,240 --> 00:08:50,919 Speaker 3: I say, the English teacher in me was sitting here 170 00:08:51,120 --> 00:08:54,519 listening to those scenes, taking in those scenes and going, 171 00:08:54,639 --> 00:08:58,759 my god, the irony of him sitting there and putting 172 00:08:58,799 --> 00:09:03,360 on this performative show for you. Oh yeah, it's certainly scary. 173 00:09:03,440 --> 00:09:06,039 What's happening? My gosh, what kind of monster would do that. 174 00:09:06,679 --> 00:09:08,960 There were times when I sat there and read these 175 00:09:09,000 --> 00:09:12,000 scenes and I was just sitting there with my mouth open. 176 00:09:12,240 --> 00:09:15,480 My god, what a grand performance he was giving. 177 00:09:16,120 --> 00:09:20,279 Speaker 4: Yeah, and he enjoyed doing it, and he was good 178 00:09:20,320 --> 00:09:23,519 at it. He also would tell us these you know, 179 00:09:23,559 --> 00:09:25,799 he told us about what he was doing, working for 180 00:09:25,919 --> 00:09:29,440 the reelection campaign for our governor, who is a very 181 00:09:29,480 --> 00:09:32,879 popular guy at the time, and going undercover into the 182 00:09:32,919 --> 00:09:37,679 opponent's camp, wearing disguises so they wouldn't recognize him if 183 00:09:37,720 --> 00:09:40,559 he went back a second time. So doing all these things, 184 00:09:40,720 --> 00:09:43,960 you can't help but asking yourself, he is really perfecting 185 00:09:44,039 --> 00:09:46,840 this art of deception. And then he works for the 186 00:09:46,840 --> 00:09:50,720 Seattle Crime Commission. He's writing pamphlets on crime prevention for women. 187 00:09:51,399 --> 00:09:56,159 He writes a pamphlet on rape prevention for women. And 188 00:09:56,200 --> 00:09:59,120 we're so proud of him for doing this, because this 189 00:09:59,279 --> 00:10:02,879 is about this In nineteen seventy three and nineteen seventy four, 190 00:10:03,320 --> 00:10:06,200 this is when the women's movement was really taking hold, 191 00:10:06,240 --> 00:10:09,440 and we are all starting to feel really empowered and 192 00:10:09,720 --> 00:10:12,799 excited about what was going on. Billy Jean King was 193 00:10:12,840 --> 00:10:16,360 playing you know that famous tennis match, you know, and 194 00:10:16,879 --> 00:10:19,519 all this stuff was going on, and he's doing these 195 00:10:19,879 --> 00:10:23,000 things that seem positive for women, But why was he 196 00:10:23,159 --> 00:10:23,759 doing that? 197 00:10:24,480 --> 00:10:28,120 Speaker 2: In retrospect, do you think he was enjoying this sort 198 00:10:28,159 --> 00:10:31,360 of duality where he was pretending at least to be 199 00:10:31,399 --> 00:10:34,879 a good guy in helping women, while at the same 200 00:10:34,919 --> 00:10:37,200 time he's committing these heinous crimes. 201 00:10:38,279 --> 00:10:40,879 Speaker 4: You know, I've talked to a lot of people who've 202 00:10:40,960 --> 00:10:45,200 worked with dual personalities like this, so as if he 203 00:10:45,279 --> 00:10:49,159 had these two different masks. So when he's around family 204 00:10:49,200 --> 00:10:53,600 members and friends, he's one person, and obviously when he's 205 00:10:53,639 --> 00:10:56,759 he takes that mask off. God forbid who this other 206 00:10:56,840 --> 00:11:01,360 person was. I think that he probably the amassed a 207 00:11:01,440 --> 00:11:06,279 lot of experience at working with people. I can't understand 208 00:11:06,440 --> 00:11:09,720 the anger and the rage and where that came from. 209 00:11:10,279 --> 00:11:12,799 I don't know if it's because he never found out 210 00:11:12,799 --> 00:11:16,240 who his biological father was and that really really really 211 00:11:16,279 --> 00:11:19,720 bothered him. I don't know what it is that built up. 212 00:11:20,200 --> 00:11:22,840 You know, he was angry at young women, He was 213 00:11:22,879 --> 00:11:26,960 rejected by this very classy young woman who came from 214 00:11:27,039 --> 00:11:32,559 US California, very high level family. I think rejection of 215 00:11:32,559 --> 00:11:35,519 all these things. I have no idea, but I do believe, yes, 216 00:11:35,639 --> 00:11:39,919 Bill that he definitely was building up to something. 217 00:11:40,399 --> 00:11:42,840 Speaker 3: You had mentioned in the book. There was a time 218 00:11:42,919 --> 00:11:46,320 when you watched him slow dancing with your roommate and 219 00:11:46,360 --> 00:11:50,120 you saw the mask slip and he had this just 220 00:11:50,440 --> 00:11:54,720 rage and hatred infused expression on his face that must 221 00:11:54,720 --> 00:11:55,320 have been chilling. 222 00:11:55,919 --> 00:11:58,440 Speaker 4: Well, it was shocking because I'd never seen him like 223 00:11:58,480 --> 00:12:02,159 that before, and I I kind of wondered if I 224 00:12:02,159 --> 00:12:05,240 could believe my eyes, you know what was I seeing? 225 00:12:05,600 --> 00:12:08,480 Because we were dancing around. He'd come over with a 226 00:12:08,559 --> 00:12:11,120 bag of groceries and so we cooked this wonderful dinner 227 00:12:11,639 --> 00:12:14,320 and then afterwards we were playing records and dancing around 228 00:12:14,360 --> 00:12:17,240 my apartment. I love to dance, so I'm always dancing, 229 00:12:17,480 --> 00:12:21,440 and I see him in my roommate in his arms 230 00:12:21,440 --> 00:12:23,200 and they're slow dancing, and you got it right, he 231 00:12:23,399 --> 00:12:25,879 is looking down at her with this look on his 232 00:12:26,000 --> 00:12:29,559 face of I didn't even recognize him who he was 233 00:12:30,200 --> 00:12:33,519 of complete rage and his jaws clenched and he looks 234 00:12:33,720 --> 00:12:36,679 very angry. And the thing that really stood out to 235 00:12:36,679 --> 00:12:39,960 me at the time was his blue eyes were completely black. 236 00:12:41,720 --> 00:12:45,080 And I've found out since then that this happens there 237 00:12:45,120 --> 00:12:49,519 are irises dilate, so it completely removed all the blue 238 00:12:49,559 --> 00:12:52,559 you know what I'm talking about, I mean, and that 239 00:12:52,759 --> 00:12:54,559 was happening, and I had to yell at him a 240 00:12:54,559 --> 00:12:57,399 couple of times to get his attention. And then it 241 00:12:57,440 --> 00:12:59,600 was this piece snapped out of a trance. 242 00:13:00,320 --> 00:13:04,320 Speaker 2: He didn't say or do anything to manifest what you 243 00:13:04,360 --> 00:13:07,759 were seeing. He didn't hurt her or threaten her or you, 244 00:13:08,120 --> 00:13:10,519 but there was something about his expression. 245 00:13:11,320 --> 00:13:13,639 Speaker 4: It was his expression looking down at the top of 246 00:13:13,679 --> 00:13:16,600 her head, and it alarmed me, and I yelled. I 247 00:13:16,600 --> 00:13:18,519 had to yell a couple times at him. Finally I 248 00:13:18,600 --> 00:13:20,840 turned off the music and then I said, hey, Ted, 249 00:13:20,879 --> 00:13:24,240 are you okay? And he finally kind of just you know, 250 00:13:24,360 --> 00:13:26,919 as if somebody just snapped out of something, and then 251 00:13:27,159 --> 00:13:29,639 just the whole mask was back in place, and then 252 00:13:29,679 --> 00:13:32,679 he smiled and said, oh, no, no, I'm just fine. 253 00:13:33,000 --> 00:13:35,600 But I'll have to tell you he left just moments 254 00:13:35,679 --> 00:13:39,360 right after that. It was such a sudden departure that, 255 00:13:39,600 --> 00:13:42,799 you know, the only speculation I have in retrospect, because 256 00:13:42,799 --> 00:13:45,759 at the time I was just confused. And then I 257 00:13:45,840 --> 00:13:47,279 kind of put it out of my mind, going, oh, 258 00:13:47,320 --> 00:13:49,919 you know, you must have had his mind on something else, 259 00:13:50,039 --> 00:13:53,679 or I mean, because why would you think otherwise. But 260 00:13:53,720 --> 00:13:55,240 then where did he go that night? 261 00:13:55,960 --> 00:13:56,159 Speaker 3: Oh? 262 00:13:56,240 --> 00:13:58,759 Speaker 2: I did that. I had the exact same thought when 263 00:13:58,840 --> 00:13:59,840 you said that. 264 00:14:00,559 --> 00:14:03,399 Speaker 3: I mean, that's and that's got to be the hardest 265 00:14:03,440 --> 00:14:05,799 part of this, I would imagine, is you're having to 266 00:14:05,840 --> 00:14:09,399 sort of reassess everything that you think you knew about 267 00:14:09,440 --> 00:14:13,480 this guy who really did seem to be kind, charismatic, 268 00:14:14,200 --> 00:14:17,440 the sort of perfect young man out there about to 269 00:14:17,440 --> 00:14:19,120 make his way in the world, out to go do 270 00:14:19,200 --> 00:14:23,600 successful things. What an absolutely horrible thing. And that's got 271 00:14:23,639 --> 00:14:26,039 to be very complicated, does it? You know, does it 272 00:14:26,120 --> 00:14:30,559 make your memories of Ted more complicated? Knowing Okay, I 273 00:14:30,639 --> 00:14:33,879 knew him as this wonderful person, but I also know 274 00:14:34,039 --> 00:14:36,440 that he was this horrible monster. It's got to be 275 00:14:36,559 --> 00:14:39,879 some weird cognitive dissonance right there, so weird. 276 00:14:39,679 --> 00:14:42,840 Speaker 4: And so alarming because I'm hanging out with him and 277 00:14:42,919 --> 00:14:46,120 I don't have any idea. So you can imagine how 278 00:14:46,200 --> 00:14:50,039 much that makes me doubt my ability to judge somebody's character. 279 00:14:50,519 --> 00:14:54,399 That this person who was so vile and so violent 280 00:14:54,799 --> 00:14:57,559 was in my room and I completely trusted him, and 281 00:14:57,600 --> 00:15:01,000 I exposed my girlfriends to him, and yet I did 282 00:15:01,039 --> 00:15:04,919 not know, And yes, that makes me really have very 283 00:15:04,960 --> 00:15:08,320 complex feelings about him. I'm you know, I'm angry with 284 00:15:08,399 --> 00:15:12,000 him for fifty years and felt deceived and manipulated and 285 00:15:12,120 --> 00:15:17,159 used and just horrified and just completely perplexed at how 286 00:15:17,200 --> 00:15:21,000 I couldn't know, how could I have missed the signs? 287 00:15:21,440 --> 00:15:25,200 You know, how could how could somebody so successfully be 288 00:15:25,320 --> 00:15:28,000 two completely different people? 289 00:15:28,720 --> 00:15:32,080 Speaker 2: Tell us more about your discussions what you can remember 290 00:15:32,200 --> 00:15:36,320 years later. You actually discussed some of the murders that 291 00:15:36,360 --> 00:15:40,039 were going on at that time with him in close 292 00:15:40,080 --> 00:15:40,919 to real time. 293 00:15:41,519 --> 00:15:45,919 Speaker 4: Yeah. Actually, and my now husband Don had who is 294 00:15:45,919 --> 00:15:48,799 my boyfriend at the time, had come up. He usually 295 00:15:48,799 --> 00:15:52,120 came up on weekends from Tacoma after work, usually at Friday. 296 00:15:52,639 --> 00:15:56,919 There had been these two young women abducted from a 297 00:15:57,000 --> 00:16:00,720 lake not far from Seattle, east of Seattle called Lakes Mammish. 298 00:16:01,159 --> 00:16:04,679 Apparently the person that did this was careless or bold 299 00:16:04,799 --> 00:16:08,840 or whatever, because someone overheard him say his name was Ted, 300 00:16:09,159 --> 00:16:13,840 and someone also witnessed him walking towards a VdeV bug 301 00:16:14,279 --> 00:16:17,399 and then so what happened was they had a and 302 00:16:17,440 --> 00:16:21,279 then two girls, two young women were kidnapped and disappeared. 303 00:16:21,480 --> 00:16:24,200 Nobody knew where they went. One earlier in the day 304 00:16:24,240 --> 00:16:26,480 and one a little bit later. So apparently he did 305 00:16:26,600 --> 00:16:28,399 these horrible things to one and then came back and 306 00:16:28,399 --> 00:16:32,080 got another one. We're just you know, we get the 307 00:16:32,120 --> 00:16:35,559 newspaper these You know, I had two other female roommates, 308 00:16:35,799 --> 00:16:39,840 and you know, we were all terrified. All these these 309 00:16:39,879 --> 00:16:42,200 things have been happening almost one a month up to 310 00:16:42,240 --> 00:16:45,960 that point. Starting in the end of January, a young 311 00:16:46,039 --> 00:16:49,399 woman is attacked. She was one of the fortunate ones. 312 00:16:49,440 --> 00:16:52,679 She was left four dead and the thing got interrupted, 313 00:16:52,759 --> 00:16:55,559 so she she got lucky, I mean, not without lots 314 00:16:55,600 --> 00:16:59,759 of physical and mental repercussions for her. She lived. If 315 00:16:59,759 --> 00:17:02,720 you walked from Ted's apartment, you know, he was five 316 00:17:02,759 --> 00:17:06,000 minutes from me, and he walked by my front door 317 00:17:06,039 --> 00:17:08,920 to my apartment building across the street and went around 318 00:17:08,920 --> 00:17:11,759 the corner. That's where she lived. So these things are 319 00:17:11,759 --> 00:17:14,319 happening once a month, so you can imagine how we're 320 00:17:14,359 --> 00:17:17,480 all getting more and more terrified. And we're afraid now 321 00:17:17,519 --> 00:17:20,240 to walk to class. You know, it's out of my bike. 322 00:17:20,319 --> 00:17:23,079 It takes me ten minutes to get to campus, and 323 00:17:23,200 --> 00:17:26,559 I've never ridden a bicycle so fast. Or I'll we'll 324 00:17:26,599 --> 00:17:29,599 walk in. You will team up with other people walking together, 325 00:17:30,119 --> 00:17:34,759 so fast forward to July. I've graduated, I'm living with 326 00:17:34,799 --> 00:17:37,680 my two roommates into this I've moved out of my apartment. 327 00:17:37,720 --> 00:17:40,119 I'm into a house. We're getting these papers and we 328 00:17:40,160 --> 00:17:43,960 see this composite drawing that somebody, an eyewitness had put together. 329 00:17:44,359 --> 00:17:47,119 And we're looking at it and we don't recognize who 330 00:17:47,160 --> 00:17:50,319 that is, but they say it's Ted and he has 331 00:17:50,559 --> 00:17:54,039 a tan V dub or something like that, and I'm going, God, 332 00:17:54,079 --> 00:17:56,960 what a coincidence, because my cousin's name is Ted and 333 00:17:57,000 --> 00:17:59,480 he has a vdub that looks a lot like what 334 00:17:59,519 --> 00:18:03,119 they're just And so Don is over at the house 335 00:18:03,359 --> 00:18:07,200 and the dog, Jeffy, starts barking, and we look out 336 00:18:07,359 --> 00:18:11,279 the front window and I see Ted's car parked out below. 337 00:18:11,680 --> 00:18:14,400 So Ted comes to the door and everything's fine at 338 00:18:14,400 --> 00:18:17,079 that point when the dog no problems then, and he 339 00:18:17,160 --> 00:18:20,160 comes in and so Don thinks, oh, you know what 340 00:18:20,200 --> 00:18:22,200 I'm going to do is I'm going to thrust the 341 00:18:22,279 --> 00:18:24,880 picture of this composite in the Ted's face and say, 342 00:18:25,000 --> 00:18:27,640 you know, say something to him. So he does. He 343 00:18:27,720 --> 00:18:29,960 picks up the paper and he goes, oh, hey, Ted, 344 00:18:30,160 --> 00:18:32,839 this picture looks just like you. And we're thinking it 345 00:18:32,839 --> 00:18:35,160 looks nothing like him, but he was teasing him, not 346 00:18:35,519 --> 00:18:41,720 realizing that that was Ted, the Ted. But Ted is 347 00:18:41,839 --> 00:18:46,200 so adept he doesn't even hesitate a second. He goes, 348 00:18:46,279 --> 00:18:50,240 oh God, I know, isn't isn't that awful? Isn't that terrible? 349 00:18:50,279 --> 00:18:53,680 What's happened to all those girls? And then we're just 350 00:18:53,720 --> 00:18:56,039 feeling so badly for him, and then he says, at 351 00:18:56,039 --> 00:18:59,119 that point, yeah, I've been interviewed by the police, and 352 00:18:59,160 --> 00:19:04,440 we're just we feel terrible that he's been inconvenienced. And 353 00:19:04,480 --> 00:19:08,039 he says, yeah, there's V dubs are everywhere at this time. 354 00:19:08,160 --> 00:19:11,440 If any of you remember from that time period, it 355 00:19:11,480 --> 00:19:14,599 was a really, really popular car. There was something like 356 00:19:14,680 --> 00:19:17,519 forty thousand of them registered in the state of Washington. 357 00:19:17,759 --> 00:19:19,839 Speaker 3: Oh my gosh, no a lot. 358 00:19:20,240 --> 00:19:22,680 Speaker 4: There were a bunch of them with somebody whose name 359 00:19:22,799 --> 00:19:25,480 was Ted or Theodore or something like that. And he's 360 00:19:25,480 --> 00:19:28,279 telling us all this and that's why he got pulled 361 00:19:28,279 --> 00:19:30,839 in because his name is Ted and he has a 362 00:19:30,920 --> 00:19:34,799 V dub with the police. Don't believe he's a suspect. 363 00:19:34,960 --> 00:19:36,680 Speaker 2: And do you think he was telling you the truth 364 00:19:36,720 --> 00:19:38,119 when he says he was interviewed. 365 00:19:38,640 --> 00:19:42,000 Speaker 4: I do, I absolutely do. And in my research, he 366 00:19:42,279 --> 00:19:43,599 was interviewed. 367 00:19:44,640 --> 00:19:46,039 Speaker 3: What a smooth operator. 368 00:19:46,640 --> 00:19:49,640 Speaker 4: Smooth operator, he didn't even bat an eye, and here 369 00:19:49,680 --> 00:19:52,319 we were thrusting this right in his face at the time. 370 00:19:53,000 --> 00:19:56,000 Speaker 3: It really is just sort of astounding the way that 371 00:19:56,039 --> 00:19:58,920 you wrote it. It's so compelling him because you're going 372 00:19:58,960 --> 00:20:02,559 through this it by minute and we all know it's 373 00:20:02,599 --> 00:20:04,559 actually Ted, Ted is the one who's doing this, but 374 00:20:04,720 --> 00:20:07,559 we're getting all of these scenes of what it is 375 00:20:07,720 --> 00:20:11,000 like to watch you go through this minute by minute, 376 00:20:11,279 --> 00:20:14,920 not really seeing that your Ted is the Ted who's 377 00:20:14,920 --> 00:20:17,559 doing these terrible things. But I one hundred percent can 378 00:20:17,599 --> 00:20:19,960 buy into it. Guy, I see it. I believe it. 379 00:20:20,000 --> 00:20:23,319 I can see how he would have absolutely pulled the 380 00:20:23,359 --> 00:20:26,759 wool over everybody's eyes because he was so smooth and 381 00:20:26,920 --> 00:20:31,519 charismatic and adept exactly. You know, there is this whole 382 00:20:31,720 --> 00:20:36,279 still a cult of personality surrounding Ted, of women who 383 00:20:36,279 --> 00:20:40,039 are fascinated with him. What you're telling me, though, that 384 00:20:40,119 --> 00:20:42,559 does kind of jive with that, Like I get why 385 00:20:42,599 --> 00:20:46,599 women are still really fascinated. I think it's abborrent, but 386 00:20:46,920 --> 00:20:49,480 I get, but I get it. Like, how do you 387 00:20:49,519 --> 00:20:52,079 feel about this whole cult of personality around Ted? 388 00:20:52,680 --> 00:20:56,920 Speaker 4: You know, My only thought is there is something in 389 00:20:56,960 --> 00:21:00,799 these women's lives that makes them feel like they have 390 00:21:00,880 --> 00:21:04,200 to be attracted to somebody like this. So I feel 391 00:21:04,319 --> 00:21:08,640 sad for them in some regards, but I don't understand it. 392 00:21:10,160 --> 00:21:13,640 I can't identify with it. To me, it seems like 393 00:21:13,720 --> 00:21:17,319 an awful thing to do is to somehow feel thrilled 394 00:21:17,960 --> 00:21:21,240 by a personality like that. And meanwhile, the thing that 395 00:21:21,519 --> 00:21:24,680 really gets to me because the first thing my co 396 00:21:24,759 --> 00:21:26,960 author and I, Megan Atkinson and I, I mean, we 397 00:21:27,200 --> 00:21:32,400 had long discussions because my first concern was about the families, 398 00:21:32,720 --> 00:21:36,880 the victims, you know that from his horrific acts to 399 00:21:36,960 --> 00:21:40,640 hit their daughters, their siblings, their cousins, their friends, and 400 00:21:40,960 --> 00:21:45,200 these families are I would think, are still suffering to 401 00:21:45,279 --> 00:21:48,480 this day, and some of them their remains have never 402 00:21:48,519 --> 00:21:51,640 been found, and those families still haven't been able to 403 00:21:51,680 --> 00:21:53,680 put them to rest. And this is the thing that 404 00:21:53,759 --> 00:21:56,440 gets to me. And meanwhile, they're these people that are 405 00:21:56,519 --> 00:22:00,240 like this cult of personality where they have I I 406 00:22:00,240 --> 00:22:04,200 don't get it. I don't understand it, and I'm sure 407 00:22:04,200 --> 00:22:07,119 there's a lot of psychological reasons why they feel that way. 408 00:22:07,920 --> 00:22:10,039 Speaker 3: Bill and I have told the story on the podcast 409 00:22:10,039 --> 00:22:12,440 a couple of times, but we've never told it to 410 00:22:12,519 --> 00:22:15,559 Ted's cousin. I remember the very first time that we 411 00:22:15,640 --> 00:22:19,359 went to Crime Con in Nashville. One of the very 412 00:22:19,400 --> 00:22:22,160 first people that I saw walking into a ballroom had 413 00:22:22,160 --> 00:22:26,160 a full face tattoo of Ted on her forearm. And 414 00:22:26,440 --> 00:22:30,920 it was like, I can't believe you would come to 415 00:22:31,039 --> 00:22:34,400 crime Con with a full face Bundy tattoo. And she 416 00:22:34,559 --> 00:22:40,839 wasn't the only one it was. It was incredibly, incredibly bizarre, 417 00:22:40,960 --> 00:22:42,519 and like I said, there was a certain amount of 418 00:22:42,559 --> 00:22:47,240 cognitive dissonance there. You know, women like our tattooed friend. 419 00:22:47,640 --> 00:22:50,799 She knows what Ted did. Why are you still walking 420 00:22:50,799 --> 00:22:53,319 around with him on your arm? Is sort of the 421 00:22:53,680 --> 00:22:54,480 question for me. 422 00:22:55,119 --> 00:22:59,160 Speaker 4: Yeah, I don't understand it. There is something in there 423 00:22:59,200 --> 00:23:01,440 that it would be interesting to find out what the 424 00:23:01,480 --> 00:23:04,359 attraction is. I have no idea. 425 00:23:05,039 --> 00:23:07,720 Speaker 2: You're listening to Mind over Murder. We'll be right back 426 00:23:07,960 --> 00:23:17,039 after this word from our sponsors, we're back here at 427 00:23:17,039 --> 00:23:20,880 mindover Murder. Before we get back to the podcast, just 428 00:23:20,960 --> 00:23:23,359 wanted to remind you that we have a go fundme 429 00:23:23,559 --> 00:23:27,240 effort going on right now. This campaign is designed to 430 00:23:27,240 --> 00:23:30,720 help us raise funds to help promote mind over Murder, 431 00:23:31,079 --> 00:23:36,000 and specifically to push the Colonial Parkway murders investigation forward. 432 00:23:36,680 --> 00:23:38,759 We'd love it if you could support us in any 433 00:23:38,759 --> 00:23:42,720 way that you can. Any donation from five dollars to 434 00:23:42,799 --> 00:23:45,799 whatever you can afford is very much appreciated and will 435 00:23:45,799 --> 00:23:48,680 be incredibly helpful. The link is in the show notes 436 00:23:48,839 --> 00:23:52,519 and in our social media pages. As always, thanks for 437 00:23:52,559 --> 00:23:56,119 your support. Now back to mind over Murder. 438 00:23:56,880 --> 00:23:59,880 Speaker 4: You know, my first reaction is it's so disrespectful for 439 00:24:00,039 --> 00:24:02,440 the victims. But there's got to be more to it 440 00:24:02,519 --> 00:24:06,039 than that. This cult of personality. I mean, he was charming, 441 00:24:06,119 --> 00:24:09,640 he was good looking. When I started to when I 442 00:24:09,720 --> 00:24:11,960 finally came to realize that he was guilty of this, 443 00:24:12,039 --> 00:24:15,200 he was no longer charming or good looking to me. 444 00:24:15,960 --> 00:24:19,079 It was a tool that he used for evil. One 445 00:24:19,119 --> 00:24:22,240 of my mutual acquaintances and I didn't know her as 446 00:24:22,279 --> 00:24:24,480 well as my roommates did, was one of his very 447 00:24:24,519 --> 00:24:28,279 first victims. This is very personal. This is a really 448 00:24:28,359 --> 00:24:31,759 really awful thing. This is nothing to glorify, This is 449 00:24:31,880 --> 00:24:36,079 nothing to admire. There is not one, so no kind 450 00:24:36,119 --> 00:24:39,440 of part of his personality that we want to emulate. 451 00:24:40,000 --> 00:24:43,960 Speaker 2: Well said, let's drill down on that so who was 452 00:24:44,119 --> 00:24:47,279 this victim and what was her relationship to you. 453 00:24:47,799 --> 00:24:51,000 Speaker 4: Her name was Linda Ann Heally. She was the very 454 00:24:51,039 --> 00:24:53,799 first victim that we are aware of. Now we think 455 00:24:53,839 --> 00:24:57,440 that he was way too practiced. This is according to 456 00:24:57,519 --> 00:25:00,640 Robert Keppel, the chief detective on his case. But I 457 00:25:00,680 --> 00:25:03,640 read his book and I have to agree with him 458 00:25:03,640 --> 00:25:06,240 that he didn't think that Ted went from zero to 459 00:25:06,279 --> 00:25:09,319 one hundred miles an hour, just like This young woman 460 00:25:09,599 --> 00:25:13,119 was best friends with one of my childhood friends who 461 00:25:13,240 --> 00:25:16,240 was also my roommate, and I had met her. I 462 00:25:16,279 --> 00:25:18,559 did not know her well, but she was a lovely 463 00:25:18,680 --> 00:25:23,720 person and the effect that her disappearance had on one 464 00:25:23,759 --> 00:25:29,079 of my best buddies was absolutely terrible, because we all 465 00:25:29,319 --> 00:25:32,839 fretted horribly about what happened to Linda. But when you're 466 00:25:32,839 --> 00:25:36,119 a really good friend of someone who's disappeared, that you've 467 00:25:36,119 --> 00:25:39,759 confided in, you've shared your lives with, you've done things together, 468 00:25:40,200 --> 00:25:42,920 and then suddenly she disappears from the face of the earth, 469 00:25:42,960 --> 00:25:45,440 it was just an awful, awful thing. And she knew 470 00:25:45,480 --> 00:25:49,680 their family too, her family, Linda's family, and that good 471 00:25:49,680 --> 00:25:52,119 friend of mine whose name I have not mentioned out 472 00:25:52,119 --> 00:25:55,279 of respect to her, and also the other roommate of 473 00:25:55,279 --> 00:25:57,640 mine who was also they were roommates together at the 474 00:25:57,720 --> 00:26:00,960 University of Washington. She cannot even talk about it to 475 00:26:01,000 --> 00:26:04,640 this day. That's how upsetting it is still to her. 476 00:26:05,160 --> 00:26:09,359 So to have people that are idolizing him, disregarding the 477 00:26:09,519 --> 00:26:12,240 level of pain that he has caused is just it's 478 00:26:12,359 --> 00:26:13,920 really hard for me to process that. 479 00:26:14,640 --> 00:26:17,759 Speaker 2: For me too, And this is something we've talked about before. 480 00:26:17,799 --> 00:26:21,799 As the brother of a murder victim still unsolved, I 481 00:26:21,920 --> 00:26:27,680 find this highly offensive. Now, Kristen knows, I'm usually polite enough. 482 00:26:28,000 --> 00:26:32,799 I wouldn't go up and initiate a conversation. I would 483 00:26:32,799 --> 00:26:35,880 be polite, and I was polite. Actually, I know that 484 00:26:36,119 --> 00:26:40,640 it's something I'm really really uncomfortable with, and I think 485 00:26:40,680 --> 00:26:46,559 it is horrifically disrespectful. I actually publicly criticized crime con 486 00:26:46,680 --> 00:26:50,200 in a lengthy article in the Washington Post for not 487 00:26:50,559 --> 00:26:55,160 taking steps to let people know how inappropriate that is. 488 00:26:55,200 --> 00:26:59,240 When you've got, in addition to now six thousand true 489 00:26:59,279 --> 00:27:02,720 crime fans meeting typically once a year, you also have 490 00:27:02,960 --> 00:27:05,319 a smaller group. But it's a couple one hundred people 491 00:27:05,359 --> 00:27:09,079 who are subject matter experts like ourselves and others who 492 00:27:09,119 --> 00:27:13,640 are speaking about true crime and unsolved cases and solved 493 00:27:13,680 --> 00:27:18,599 cases and survivors stories like we've talked about Kathy Kleiner 494 00:27:18,680 --> 00:27:22,640 Ruben who survived Ted Bundy, and many many others. So 495 00:27:22,680 --> 00:27:26,480 you've got a chunk of people attending crime Con that 496 00:27:26,599 --> 00:27:31,759 have direct connections, including often family members of murder victims, 497 00:27:32,480 --> 00:27:35,759 some of whom are looking for answers in their loved 498 00:27:35,759 --> 00:27:38,920 ones cases, and they're all part of this mix of 499 00:27:39,079 --> 00:27:43,400 true crime community. Crime Con took steps after that to 500 00:27:43,640 --> 00:27:46,519 really kind of shift the focus, and I will give 501 00:27:46,559 --> 00:27:50,079 them credit for this. They let people know that this 502 00:27:50,319 --> 00:27:54,400 isn't comic con or some other place where we dress 503 00:27:54,480 --> 00:27:58,759 up as fantasy characters, and that there are family members 504 00:27:58,799 --> 00:28:03,119 of victims who who were there and survivors who were there, 505 00:28:03,680 --> 00:28:06,400 and we need to be respectful of the fact that 506 00:28:06,440 --> 00:28:10,920 they're also attending these events. So, as I've said, through 507 00:28:11,000 --> 00:28:13,759 gritted teeth, you know, you walking around with a picture 508 00:28:13,960 --> 00:28:17,240 with a serial killer's face on your T shirt or whatever. 509 00:28:17,680 --> 00:28:20,720 It's not appropriate. And you might think that's hip and 510 00:28:20,799 --> 00:28:23,400 cool and edgy, but you know something, No, it's actually 511 00:28:23,480 --> 00:28:25,839 offensive and gross and disgusting. 512 00:28:26,480 --> 00:28:30,680 Speaker 4: Yes, I'm proud of you, Good for you for doing that. 513 00:28:31,319 --> 00:28:34,039 Speaker 2: To be fair, they did take steps at Crime con 514 00:28:34,160 --> 00:28:37,119 to let people know, and they've gotten a lot more 515 00:28:37,559 --> 00:28:41,039 victim focused. I understand that there's going to be some 516 00:28:41,160 --> 00:28:45,079 graphic talk and some maybe some difficult moments at a 517 00:28:45,160 --> 00:28:49,319 conference like this, but this is not a conference of 518 00:28:49,400 --> 00:28:54,559 law enforcement or forensics experts, where those conferences can be very, 519 00:28:54,720 --> 00:28:57,799 very gritty. But that's not you know, when you're talking 520 00:28:57,799 --> 00:29:01,279 about how to solve difficult cases, some times the conversations 521 00:29:01,319 --> 00:29:06,039 themselves are difficult. I share your perspective. I'm completely baffled 522 00:29:06,359 --> 00:29:10,160 by it. I'm actually offended, and Kristen knows I'm actually 523 00:29:10,240 --> 00:29:13,519 not easily offended, but this is one thing that just 524 00:29:13,720 --> 00:29:17,000 really sets me off. We can move on from there. 525 00:29:17,680 --> 00:29:19,119 I appreciate your perspective on. 526 00:29:19,200 --> 00:29:23,960 Speaker 3: More hardly, I don't get it, and I'm curious, do 527 00:29:24,039 --> 00:29:28,680 you consider you and your family to be secondary victims 528 00:29:28,799 --> 00:29:32,119 of TED? How have you dealt with the trauma and 529 00:29:32,160 --> 00:29:34,200 the turmoil of this. You've had to live with it 530 00:29:34,279 --> 00:29:37,480 for the last fifty years. How in the world have 531 00:29:37,599 --> 00:29:41,599 you been able to sort this and you know, compartmentalize 532 00:29:41,599 --> 00:29:43,880 it and keep it from bleeding into all other areas 533 00:29:43,880 --> 00:29:45,720 of your life. That's got to be difficult. 534 00:29:46,279 --> 00:29:50,160 Speaker 4: Well, yeah, I mean there are primary victims of Ted 535 00:29:50,400 --> 00:29:54,920 and I didn't feel that I even should have anything 536 00:29:55,200 --> 00:29:58,119 to talk about because of what they went through. But 537 00:29:58,200 --> 00:30:00,559 I realize now over time, and that's part of a 538 00:30:00,599 --> 00:30:03,400 reason why I wrote this book, is that there are 539 00:30:03,559 --> 00:30:08,480 adjacent victims. There's you know, his siblings have I know 540 00:30:08,599 --> 00:30:11,960 that they have suffered because of it. Many many people 541 00:30:12,079 --> 00:30:15,480 who knew ted Or and trusted him, you know, so 542 00:30:15,559 --> 00:30:17,880 many people have become victims of it, you know, because 543 00:30:17,880 --> 00:30:21,440 they stood up for him. And yes, I realize now 544 00:30:21,480 --> 00:30:25,000 that I am also a person who has because even 545 00:30:25,039 --> 00:30:27,240 the mention of his name over the years, I would 546 00:30:27,240 --> 00:30:29,200 get like a jolt through me, as if I'd stuck 547 00:30:29,240 --> 00:30:32,400 my finger in a light socket. That's how much his 548 00:30:32,559 --> 00:30:35,480 name upset me. I couldn't even stand to hear his name, 549 00:30:36,000 --> 00:30:38,960 and it came up everywhere. I was not a true 550 00:30:38,960 --> 00:30:41,279 crime fan. I had never had been because of him, 551 00:30:41,559 --> 00:30:45,079 and avoided it because I didn't want to face up 552 00:30:45,119 --> 00:30:48,799 to it. To the horror of it. We hit out, 553 00:30:48,880 --> 00:30:52,680 We avoided whatever we could do to make sure that 554 00:30:52,839 --> 00:30:55,880 when the frenzy was taking place during the countdown to 555 00:30:55,960 --> 00:30:59,599 his execution, they were looking for everybody to interview, and 556 00:30:59,640 --> 00:31:03,319 we just prayed that they would not find us. It 557 00:31:03,359 --> 00:31:05,880 was an awful, awful time, first of all, because I 558 00:31:05,960 --> 00:31:10,359 still had these really dual feelings. I hated the monster 559 00:31:10,839 --> 00:31:14,000 side of him, and I mourned the part that I 560 00:31:14,039 --> 00:31:17,240 cared about so much, and the loss of potential because 561 00:31:17,240 --> 00:31:20,839 he was on such a trajectory, you know, going to 562 00:31:20,880 --> 00:31:23,880 law school and doing all these really great, what looked 563 00:31:23,920 --> 00:31:27,880 like great things, and yet this is the way he went. 564 00:31:28,599 --> 00:31:30,960 So that was a really difficult time, and we lived 565 00:31:30,960 --> 00:31:33,960 in fear that the press would find us because we'd 566 00:31:34,000 --> 00:31:37,079 seen what they put his mother through, and oh my god, 567 00:31:37,200 --> 00:31:40,039 it was horrible. You know, we didn't want to do that. So, yes, 568 00:31:40,519 --> 00:31:42,920 I finally have come to realize, and it's okay to 569 00:31:43,000 --> 00:31:46,720 admit that, yes, there's lots of layers of victims, and 570 00:31:46,759 --> 00:31:49,680 we're one of those layers. Nothing compared to the primary ones, 571 00:31:49,799 --> 00:31:52,240 but we are a type of victim as well. 572 00:31:53,160 --> 00:31:56,559 Speaker 3: What I really enjoyed about Dark Tide one of the 573 00:31:56,559 --> 00:31:58,960 many things I enjoyed, I should say, and I want 574 00:31:58,960 --> 00:32:00,599 to commend you for the fact that you were willing 575 00:32:00,599 --> 00:32:03,119 to include this. You included a lot of your prison 576 00:32:03,119 --> 00:32:06,880 correspondence with Ted. It was so fascinating to read because 577 00:32:06,920 --> 00:32:10,559 you can hear and see that struggle. I love the 578 00:32:10,599 --> 00:32:14,519 relationship that we used to have because you are my family, 579 00:32:15,160 --> 00:32:18,279 but also, oh my god, what have you done? You 580 00:32:18,400 --> 00:32:20,599 need to confess. And you can see that there was 581 00:32:20,680 --> 00:32:22,799 struggle in there. You could see the way that he 582 00:32:22,839 --> 00:32:25,240 pushed back on it every time. Oh, I don't worry 583 00:32:25,240 --> 00:32:28,440 about the past, I worry about the now, would bes 584 00:32:28,759 --> 00:32:30,599 I really? I mean, I have to commend you for 585 00:32:30,680 --> 00:32:32,480 being willing to put that in there, because some of 586 00:32:32,480 --> 00:32:34,519 that has got to be really hard to look at 587 00:32:34,559 --> 00:32:35,920 now it is. 588 00:32:36,160 --> 00:32:40,119 Speaker 4: And yet I wanted I wanted people to see what 589 00:32:40,519 --> 00:32:42,960 he was like and what he was saying from prison, 590 00:32:43,000 --> 00:32:46,599 and how he was not facing up or coming to 591 00:32:46,720 --> 00:32:49,839 terms at all with his actions, and yet to such 592 00:32:49,880 --> 00:32:52,640 an extent that he was saying things like, the past 593 00:32:52,720 --> 00:32:55,319 is the past. You need to know me as I 594 00:32:55,359 --> 00:32:57,839 am now. And I was saying, well, you know what, 595 00:32:58,000 --> 00:33:00,880 you know what you are a sum total of your 596 00:33:00,920 --> 00:33:04,920 past actions. You cannot save that. Your present self isn't 597 00:33:05,079 --> 00:33:07,079 a result of what you did in the past. Look 598 00:33:07,079 --> 00:33:10,160 at where you are, Ted, it's because of what you did. 599 00:33:10,640 --> 00:33:13,759 And I wanted him to come forth for the families. 600 00:33:13,799 --> 00:33:16,720 I wanted him to if I could have any influence 601 00:33:16,759 --> 00:33:19,599 on him, I wanted him to tell why he had 602 00:33:19,640 --> 00:33:21,960 done it and where some of he where some of 603 00:33:22,000 --> 00:33:24,960 the remains were of some of these the young ladies, 604 00:33:25,000 --> 00:33:28,200 young women that he killed, and girls young you know, 605 00:33:28,400 --> 00:33:32,599 young people too. But it was it was a fruitless endeavor. 606 00:33:32,640 --> 00:33:35,359 I was obviously very naive, but I had to try. 607 00:33:36,079 --> 00:33:38,799 Speaker 2: You were able to save some of the letters. Were 608 00:33:38,839 --> 00:33:41,759 you typing these or were they handwritten? 609 00:33:42,359 --> 00:33:45,319 Speaker 4: Well, you see back in nineteen yeah, this, I didn't 610 00:33:45,319 --> 00:33:48,400 have a computer. I did have a typewriter, but these 611 00:33:48,400 --> 00:33:52,480 were all handwritten. So that and that there's something about 612 00:33:52,720 --> 00:33:55,880 handwriting a letter, you know, because it's not very fast, 613 00:33:56,839 --> 00:34:00,480 it gives you the opportunity to really put your thoughts together. 614 00:34:00,920 --> 00:34:03,920 And that's what I did. I hand wrote them. And 615 00:34:03,960 --> 00:34:06,759 he did me a big favor in that he sent 616 00:34:06,839 --> 00:34:09,840 back two of the letters, like, oh, you should be 617 00:34:09,880 --> 00:34:12,239 embarrassed about these. I'm going to send them back to you. 618 00:34:12,360 --> 00:34:14,280 And I'm so grateful that he did, because then it 619 00:34:14,360 --> 00:34:17,559 showed the you know, back and forth conversation that we 620 00:34:17,639 --> 00:34:18,639 had in those letters. 621 00:34:19,159 --> 00:34:23,039 Speaker 2: Were his response is handwritten as well? Yes, And did 622 00:34:23,079 --> 00:34:27,280 you have any awareness as to whether prison authorities were 623 00:34:27,760 --> 00:34:31,280 reading your letters in and his letters out. 624 00:34:31,480 --> 00:34:36,079 Speaker 4: You know, I'm sure that somebody must have. I think 625 00:34:36,119 --> 00:34:39,239 he wrote his letters, but he couldn't seal them, and 626 00:34:39,920 --> 00:34:43,239 they came to me obviously sealed, but possibly somebody else 627 00:34:43,280 --> 00:34:46,639 looked at them first. I'm guessing that that's what happened, 628 00:34:46,639 --> 00:34:48,599 and I kind of have the impression that's what was 629 00:34:48,639 --> 00:34:52,280 happening then, So I'm sure somebody else wrote them. But 630 00:34:52,400 --> 00:34:55,199 you know what, I couldn't touch them with my hands. 631 00:34:56,159 --> 00:34:58,800 I had to put on gloves because I was so 632 00:34:58,960 --> 00:35:02,440 freaked out about you know, and I'm not a superstitious 633 00:35:02,440 --> 00:35:07,079 person at all, but I felt like just evil essences 634 00:35:07,159 --> 00:35:09,519 were emanating from those letters. 635 00:35:10,000 --> 00:35:10,480 Speaker 3: I get it. 636 00:35:11,239 --> 00:35:14,480 Speaker 4: I just want to put a barrier between him and me. 637 00:35:14,800 --> 00:35:17,320 Speaker 3: At that point, you'd said in the book that you 638 00:35:17,320 --> 00:35:20,079 do you still have the letter. It's like you've kept them. 639 00:35:20,559 --> 00:35:23,559 Speaker 4: I kept them. I felt like, Okay, So I majored 640 00:35:23,599 --> 00:35:28,679 in history, and I feel like these were historical documents. 641 00:35:28,719 --> 00:35:32,039 While as they are, they're part of history, and so 642 00:35:32,159 --> 00:35:35,719 I felt incumbent upon me to save them in a 643 00:35:36,079 --> 00:35:39,000 box in a dark part of the basement, a far 644 00:35:39,119 --> 00:35:43,440 way from the family as possible, So I honestly had 645 00:35:43,519 --> 00:35:47,599 not opened up that box for decades until I started 646 00:35:47,599 --> 00:35:48,800 working on this project. 647 00:35:49,559 --> 00:35:53,159 Speaker 2: You mentioned something very interesting about your work on Dark 648 00:35:53,199 --> 00:35:57,320 Tide the book. You said that you started watching documentaries 649 00:35:57,440 --> 00:36:00,320 about Ted Bundy in order to kind of to take 650 00:36:00,360 --> 00:36:04,320 familiarize yourself with the facts. What was it like for 651 00:36:04,360 --> 00:36:06,000 you to watch those docs. 652 00:36:06,719 --> 00:36:09,519 Speaker 4: I could only watch them in the morning, not at night. 653 00:36:10,559 --> 00:36:13,519 So I'm an early riser, but I felt that it 654 00:36:13,599 --> 00:36:16,880 was important that I do my research and do my 655 00:36:17,000 --> 00:36:20,679 due diligence, and so I read a cherry picked which 656 00:36:20,719 --> 00:36:24,679 books to read, and I had very specific authors who, yeah, 657 00:36:25,039 --> 00:36:29,079 like Robert Kepple, the Detective, the guy that was a 658 00:36:29,119 --> 00:36:32,800 political reporter who became a friend of mine that actually 659 00:36:32,800 --> 00:36:35,320 have a chapter about him. I read his book, and 660 00:36:35,360 --> 00:36:40,320 then the woman that worked beside him on the suicide hotline. 661 00:36:39,840 --> 00:36:41,280 Speaker 2: And eral right. 662 00:36:41,960 --> 00:36:44,599 Speaker 4: But in fact I asked him about Admiral and one 663 00:36:44,599 --> 00:36:46,960 of the letters, and that was pretty funny response he 664 00:36:47,039 --> 00:36:47,360 gave me. 665 00:36:48,679 --> 00:36:50,760 Speaker 3: He kind of discounted it. He made it sound like 666 00:36:50,800 --> 00:36:53,159 she was just sort of making stuff up. 667 00:36:53,480 --> 00:36:57,400 Speaker 4: I was like, yeah, really, yes, yes, a half truth. 668 00:36:58,039 --> 00:37:00,000 And my husband thinks that's one of the funniest lies, 669 00:37:00,159 --> 00:37:01,840 he goes. So it was half right, right. 670 00:37:01,800 --> 00:37:05,519 Speaker 3: I mean, yeah, yeah, he sud he sounded kind of 671 00:37:05,519 --> 00:37:08,360 grandiose about the whole entire thing, like, you know, he 672 00:37:08,480 --> 00:37:12,159 was disapproving of all of this, you know, the wrong 673 00:37:12,239 --> 00:37:14,320 kind of publicity, right. 674 00:37:14,239 --> 00:37:16,880 Speaker 4: But he also, in my mind, had to love that 675 00:37:16,960 --> 00:37:19,800 publicity too, but sure. 676 00:37:19,760 --> 00:37:23,519 Speaker 2: The narcissist, the narcissist, and then had to love it 677 00:37:23,719 --> 00:37:27,239 and then at the same time criticize anything he thought, 678 00:37:27,320 --> 00:37:29,199 you know, any writer didn't get correct. 679 00:37:29,840 --> 00:37:33,559 Speaker 4: That exactly describes him. I mean he is the epicyle, 680 00:37:33,559 --> 00:37:38,440 the you know, epitome of a narcissist, the absolute worst ride. Yes, 681 00:37:38,920 --> 00:37:42,239 he loved the attention. Yeah, so I get up early 682 00:37:42,280 --> 00:37:45,079 to watch those, you know, some of the more well known, 683 00:37:45,239 --> 00:37:49,599 well done versions, and they were very helpful too, just 684 00:37:49,719 --> 00:37:51,239 you know, to kind of get an idea of what 685 00:37:51,280 --> 00:37:54,079 was going on at the time. And we were reading everything. 686 00:37:54,280 --> 00:37:58,559 And Megan's amazing too as a co author. She's she's 687 00:37:58,599 --> 00:38:03,000 a talented writer too, and she's also as attuned to 688 00:38:03,239 --> 00:38:06,760 getting the facts right as I am. We're both researchers, 689 00:38:07,159 --> 00:38:09,480 and we didn't want to even start writing until we 690 00:38:09,519 --> 00:38:11,519 had done a month or two of research to make 691 00:38:11,559 --> 00:38:15,480 sure we were messing up on timelines and what happened 692 00:38:15,559 --> 00:38:18,639 during the time, what was happened historically at that time, 693 00:38:18,840 --> 00:38:20,360 because so much was happening. 694 00:38:21,159 --> 00:38:25,280 Speaker 3: There has been so much about Ted. I mean everything 695 00:38:25,320 --> 00:38:29,000 from the Ted Bundy tapes on Netflix to Liz Kendall's 696 00:38:29,039 --> 00:38:31,840 book came out, The Phantom Prince. There has been so 697 00:38:31,960 --> 00:38:36,280 much done about Ted. I'm not necessarily saying that you 698 00:38:36,320 --> 00:38:39,360 should call out the bad actors, but were there any 699 00:38:39,440 --> 00:38:41,559 that you watched or read that you were like, oh 700 00:38:41,599 --> 00:38:44,280 my gosh, what now they got it wrong or this 701 00:38:44,320 --> 00:38:47,800 is nonsense. Were there any that you were just like, no, no, nope, Yeah. 702 00:38:47,639 --> 00:38:50,400 Speaker 4: I mean I would see some things. Even in some 703 00:38:50,480 --> 00:38:54,639 of their books. Most of it was amazing what those 704 00:38:54,679 --> 00:38:58,960 particular people had written. Both all of them did a 705 00:38:58,960 --> 00:39:02,079 good job. And my heart goes out to Liz. I mean, 706 00:39:02,079 --> 00:39:05,679 can you imagine having this person as your boyfriend and 707 00:39:06,239 --> 00:39:08,000 not having a clue for quite a while and then 708 00:39:08,039 --> 00:39:11,599 starting to suspect things. I mean, oh my gosh, and 709 00:39:11,679 --> 00:39:15,920 exposing her little girl to him. There are there's so much. 710 00:39:16,039 --> 00:39:18,119 There's so much written about him, and some of it 711 00:39:18,199 --> 00:39:22,920 is just crazy. Some of them glorify him in ways 712 00:39:22,920 --> 00:39:25,360 that we've already discussed, So yeah, I don't even want 713 00:39:25,360 --> 00:39:26,679 to give them the time of day. 714 00:39:27,159 --> 00:39:30,159 Speaker 3: Were there mistakes ever about like Ted or your family 715 00:39:30,199 --> 00:39:33,239 that you found, Like I mean, you know, as a historian, 716 00:39:33,360 --> 00:39:36,039 I know that you're probably looking and kind of double checking. 717 00:39:36,159 --> 00:39:39,239 Was there ever any egregious, glaring errors that you found 718 00:39:39,280 --> 00:39:41,880 that made you go and I think, I think this 719 00:39:41,920 --> 00:39:43,440 person needs to be put right. 720 00:39:44,079 --> 00:39:46,400 Speaker 4: I mean, there was a lot of speculation and things 721 00:39:46,440 --> 00:39:50,119 like that. You see a lot of psychologists and psychiatrists 722 00:39:50,159 --> 00:39:52,840 writing things. A lot of their take was pretty interesting. 723 00:39:52,960 --> 00:39:55,760 You'd see a lot of people who claimed that they 724 00:39:55,800 --> 00:39:58,360 were approached by Ted, and I'm not saying that they weren't. 725 00:39:58,559 --> 00:40:01,559 He probably approached a lot of people before he found 726 00:40:01,599 --> 00:40:04,920 someone who would, you know, actually allow him to draw 727 00:40:05,000 --> 00:40:08,320 them draw them away. But there's a lot of that. 728 00:40:08,400 --> 00:40:11,320 Some of them couldn't have happened because of he wasn't 729 00:40:11,320 --> 00:40:13,920 even in the area at that time. But my heart 730 00:40:13,960 --> 00:40:16,760 goes out to those people because something happened that still 731 00:40:16,840 --> 00:40:20,440 scared them. Until I wrote this book, everybody thought. I 732 00:40:20,480 --> 00:40:23,559 think I may have already mentioned this that when Louise 733 00:40:23,639 --> 00:40:25,960 and Ted came to stay with our family, they thought 734 00:40:26,039 --> 00:40:29,119 that they were staying. It was everybody up in Wikipedia 735 00:40:29,159 --> 00:40:31,920 and everything said they stayed with Jane and Alan Scott. 736 00:40:31,960 --> 00:40:35,239 That was that was actually my parents. You know, so 737 00:40:35,360 --> 00:40:37,760 little things like that. Sure, there's some big stuff and 738 00:40:37,800 --> 00:40:39,000 there were some little things. 739 00:40:39,480 --> 00:40:42,039 Speaker 2: Is this the sort of thing we know? How much 740 00:40:42,079 --> 00:40:45,159 work has gone into co writing this book? Would you 741 00:40:45,280 --> 00:40:49,199 ever want to write about Bundy again? Or do you 742 00:40:49,239 --> 00:40:52,199 feel like you've gotten out of your system what you 743 00:40:52,280 --> 00:40:53,599 needed to get out? 744 00:40:53,760 --> 00:40:57,199 Speaker 4: No, you notice there's no image of him on the 745 00:40:57,239 --> 00:40:58,199 cover of my book. 746 00:40:58,320 --> 00:40:59,639 Speaker 2: Yes, yes, I did. 747 00:40:59,480 --> 00:41:02,760 Speaker 4: Not want to give him that power of being on 748 00:41:02,880 --> 00:41:06,039 the cover of my book. No way, No, not at all. 749 00:41:06,280 --> 00:41:11,639 And I wanted to exorcize him out of my system. 750 00:41:11,719 --> 00:41:14,360 And I wrote this book to get him out of there, 751 00:41:14,559 --> 00:41:17,719 and he no longer has any power over me. And 752 00:41:17,800 --> 00:41:20,679 it was the best thing to the writing the book 753 00:41:20,760 --> 00:41:23,440 was great. I felt like I released a lot of 754 00:41:23,480 --> 00:41:26,880 things and he didn't get a chance to say otherwise. 755 00:41:27,519 --> 00:41:29,039 So I'm done with him. 756 00:41:30,360 --> 00:41:32,880 Speaker 2: So the word Catharsis comes to mind. 757 00:41:33,199 --> 00:41:34,199 Speaker 3: Oh my gosh, it's. 758 00:41:34,039 --> 00:41:34,679 Speaker 4: A good word. 759 00:41:35,840 --> 00:41:38,639 Speaker 3: Even the last image that you had of that, that 760 00:41:38,760 --> 00:41:41,880 dream that you have of Ted searching for his grave, 761 00:41:42,119 --> 00:41:45,480 I was like, what that's if that isn't your subconscious 762 00:41:45,639 --> 00:41:48,119 yea sending a whole bunch of stuff up from the 763 00:41:48,199 --> 00:41:50,079 vault there it is. 764 00:41:50,800 --> 00:41:53,400 Speaker 4: That was so weird because how often do you remember 765 00:41:53,440 --> 00:41:57,639 a dream when you wake up. I rarely do. And 766 00:41:57,960 --> 00:41:59,840 Megan and I were in the midst of writing this, 767 00:42:00,679 --> 00:42:02,440 and we would write back and forth. I would write 768 00:42:02,440 --> 00:42:04,639 and send her things and then she's such a beautiful 769 00:42:04,679 --> 00:42:07,239 writer she would send it back at Oh my gosh, 770 00:42:07,280 --> 00:42:10,280 I mean. But anyway, I woke up one morning and 771 00:42:10,599 --> 00:42:14,679 I had this dream about looking for stones with Ted 772 00:42:14,719 --> 00:42:17,199 and my brother, and we were back on our beach 773 00:42:17,920 --> 00:42:22,079 in Felucy Bay and the Puget Sound. I just ran 774 00:42:22,159 --> 00:42:25,320 into my office and I just quickly wrote it down 775 00:42:25,800 --> 00:42:29,840 because I thought, God, this is so amazing, and I 776 00:42:29,880 --> 00:42:33,480 wanted to put him to rest. I wanted to end 777 00:42:33,519 --> 00:42:36,920 it with him, put him in the grave. And that's it. 778 00:42:37,840 --> 00:42:41,599 That must have been my subconscious talking, because that's that's 779 00:42:41,639 --> 00:42:42,320 what happened. 780 00:42:43,039 --> 00:42:45,880 Speaker 3: And now, why do you think that the fascination with 781 00:42:46,000 --> 00:42:49,920 Ted persists so many decades after his crimes, Because I mean, 782 00:42:50,199 --> 00:42:53,159 I have students who are like, oh, Ted Bundy, I 783 00:42:53,199 --> 00:42:56,360 know about Ted Bundy. They don't know about other serial killers. 784 00:42:56,400 --> 00:42:59,679 Maybe necessarily, but like right now, it's like they know Bundy, 785 00:42:59,719 --> 00:43:03,119 they know Dahmer, they know Gasey. Ted is right up there. 786 00:43:03,920 --> 00:43:07,199 Why do you think this fascination just persists years upon 787 00:43:07,280 --> 00:43:08,440 years upon years later. 788 00:43:09,119 --> 00:43:12,440 Speaker 4: Yeah, and you guys are clear across the country, not 789 00:43:12,480 --> 00:43:15,400 necessarily in the one of the states where he caused 790 00:43:15,440 --> 00:43:18,519 all his reign of terror. He was one of the first. 791 00:43:18,880 --> 00:43:22,039 I think that he kind of epitomizes what a serial 792 00:43:22,159 --> 00:43:26,039 killer is. And that was the original big book that 793 00:43:26,159 --> 00:43:30,800 was written about him at Amerl's book that turned into 794 00:43:30,840 --> 00:43:34,519 a movie with a very attractive actor playing the role 795 00:43:34,599 --> 00:43:39,960 of Ted, Mark Harmon. Oh yeah, yeah, And I think 796 00:43:40,000 --> 00:43:43,559 that that was and also he was good looking and handsome, 797 00:43:43,679 --> 00:43:46,280 and so he didn't fit into the mold of what 798 00:43:46,320 --> 00:43:50,920 people thought of as a as an evil looking person, 799 00:43:51,440 --> 00:43:53,639 which you know, I've asked a lot of young women 800 00:43:53,760 --> 00:43:57,000 since then, what is their fascination with true crime? And 801 00:43:57,039 --> 00:43:59,639 it's all over the board, and a lot of them 802 00:43:59,639 --> 00:44:02,440 have heartfelt tones in their voice, have said because they 803 00:44:02,440 --> 00:44:03,800 want to know what to look out. 804 00:44:03,639 --> 00:44:06,079 Speaker 2: For, which is valid. 805 00:44:07,920 --> 00:44:10,760 Speaker 4: Yeah. So I think that you know, there is a 806 00:44:10,800 --> 00:44:15,599 fascination because also with the fact that we didn't know. 807 00:44:15,679 --> 00:44:18,599 And this person was right in, right in the literally 808 00:44:18,639 --> 00:44:21,880 the bosom of our family, and we did not know it. 809 00:44:22,920 --> 00:44:25,320 And I think that really gives people chills. It still 810 00:44:25,320 --> 00:44:28,239 gives me chills to even say this, that someone can 811 00:44:28,280 --> 00:44:32,599 be so successful at wearing a mask that they completely 812 00:44:32,840 --> 00:44:36,000 pull the people around them who think they know them. 813 00:44:36,320 --> 00:44:39,639 So what has that done to me? It's changed how 814 00:44:39,679 --> 00:44:43,280 I look at people when I meet someone. I honestly, 815 00:44:43,400 --> 00:44:45,480 and I was in sales for forty years and that 816 00:44:45,639 --> 00:44:48,119 was really successful at it because I go, I wonder 817 00:44:48,159 --> 00:44:52,440 what's behind that mask? And I would ask many, many 818 00:44:52,480 --> 00:44:56,000 open ended questions to get a lot of information from them. 819 00:44:56,400 --> 00:44:59,280 And also I want young women to know and to 820 00:44:59,559 --> 00:45:02,199 be a I wanted to be freaked out all the time. 821 00:45:02,719 --> 00:45:06,480 But just don't Willy Nelly walk off with somebody. Obviously, 822 00:45:07,079 --> 00:45:10,119 But I'm an avid walker and I spend a lot 823 00:45:10,119 --> 00:45:13,719 of time walking by myself, and I have on many 824 00:45:13,760 --> 00:45:16,480 occasions come up behind a young woman who is wearing 825 00:45:16,519 --> 00:45:20,599 earbuds mm hm, and she has no idea that I'm 826 00:45:20,639 --> 00:45:24,400 walking up right behind her. Yeah, And she has effectively 827 00:45:24,440 --> 00:45:28,360 blocked out one of her primary senses. And if you 828 00:45:28,480 --> 00:45:31,360 need to have situational awareness all the time. Mm hmm, 829 00:45:32,199 --> 00:45:35,119 never know what's going on. And I when I'm out walking, 830 00:45:35,239 --> 00:45:38,159 I will turn around and check behind me on occasion, 831 00:45:38,239 --> 00:45:40,760 and you know, around on the sides of me. But 832 00:45:40,880 --> 00:45:42,800 I keep on going. Doesn't keep me from doing it. 833 00:45:43,039 --> 00:45:45,119 But I can't help but telling these people, I have 834 00:45:45,159 --> 00:45:48,400 to tell you a story, and you know, and then 835 00:45:48,440 --> 00:45:50,360 that kind of blows their mind and they go, okay. 836 00:45:50,440 --> 00:45:53,239 Sometimes they're very annoyed with me, but I don't care. 837 00:45:53,320 --> 00:45:55,719 I hope that they remember, you know that this is 838 00:45:56,559 --> 00:45:57,920 this is not a safe thing to do. 839 00:45:58,800 --> 00:46:03,039 Speaker 3: Honestly, That's something my own students need to hear absolutely 840 00:46:03,119 --> 00:46:06,519 because they do not have that kind of situational awareness. 841 00:46:06,519 --> 00:46:08,559 And most of them do walk around with AirPods in 842 00:46:08,679 --> 00:46:10,840 all day long, so you know, so. 843 00:46:10,880 --> 00:46:13,440 Speaker 4: Absorbed with their phones that they have no idea what's 844 00:46:13,440 --> 00:46:15,559 going on around them. And believe me, there's a lot 845 00:46:15,599 --> 00:46:17,960 of stuff going on around them. Well. 846 00:46:18,039 --> 00:46:21,039 Speaker 3: The book is Dark Tied Growing Up with Ted Bundy 847 00:46:21,119 --> 00:46:24,880 by Edna Cowell Martin and Meghan Atkinson. Eda. This has 848 00:46:24,880 --> 00:46:27,239 been delightful. Thank you for joining us today. We really 849 00:46:27,280 --> 00:46:27,920 appreciate it. 850 00:46:28,480 --> 00:46:31,079 Speaker 4: Thank you. It was very interesting. I really appreciate it 851 00:46:31,639 --> 00:46:31,960 that is. 852 00:46:31,960 --> 00:46:33,960 Speaker 3: Going to do it for this episode of mind Over Murder. 853 00:46:34,519 --> 00:46:37,360 Thank you so much for listening. We'll see you next time. 854 00:46:47,559 --> 00:46:51,119 Speaker 1: Mind Over Murder is a production of Absolute Zero and 855 00:46:51,199 --> 00:46:52,639 Another Dog Productions. 856 00:46:53,159 --> 00:46:56,519 Speaker 2: Our executive producers are Bill Thomas and Kristin Dilley. 857 00:46:56,840 --> 00:46:59,320 Speaker 1: Our logo art is by Pamela Arnois. 858 00:47:00,000 --> 00:47:01,960 Speaker 2: Our theme music is by Kevin McLoud. 859 00:47:02,519 --> 00:47:06,400 Speaker 1: Mind Over Murder is distributed in partnership with crawl Space Media. 860 00:47:07,199 --> 00:47:10,519 Speaker 2: You can follow us on Facebook, Twitter, or Instagram. 861 00:47:10,559 --> 00:47:13,159 Speaker 1: You can also follow our page on the Colonial Parkway 862 00:47:13,239 --> 00:47:15,039 Murders on Facebook. 863 00:47:14,840 --> 00:47:17,840 Speaker 2: And finally, you can follow Bill Thomas on Twitter at 864 00:47:17,880 --> 00:47:19,519 Bill Thomas five six. 865 00:47:20,000 --> 00:47:23,079 Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to mind Over Murder.