WEBVTT 1 00:00:28.920 --> 00:00:30.800 Welcome back to part two of our series about the 2 00:00:30.879 --> 00:00:33.640 murder of Roger Dean. Let's jump right back into the case. 3 00:00:34.240 --> 00:00:37.759 So many years after Unsaw Mysteries aired, they tried to 4 00:00:37.759 --> 00:00:39.520 take a fresh look at the case and try to 5 00:00:39.560 --> 00:00:42.960 solve it because of that wonderful little invention known as DNA, 6 00:00:43.200 --> 00:00:45.240 which nobody would have been thinking of back in nineteen 7 00:00:45.280 --> 00:00:48.039 eighty five. And the killer, like I said, when they 8 00:00:48.079 --> 00:00:50.359 fled the scene, threw off their ski mask and left 9 00:00:50.359 --> 00:00:52.799 it at the house, and they probably thought that that 10 00:00:52.840 --> 00:00:54.399 wasn't going to be a big deal. It was never 11 00:00:54.439 --> 00:00:56.399 going to be linked back to them, But they would 12 00:00:56.399 --> 00:00:59.119 not realize that decades after the fact, that they would 13 00:00:59.119 --> 00:01:01.679 be able to take samp of hair and saliva from 14 00:01:01.679 --> 00:01:04.640 the mask and use it to extract DNA. And I 15 00:01:04.719 --> 00:01:07.000 had to wonder if the killer was following the case 16 00:01:07.000 --> 00:01:10.519 and kicking themselves for that decision for leaving the masks behind, 17 00:01:10.560 --> 00:01:13.879 because it would ultimately be their undoing. I know that 18 00:01:13.920 --> 00:01:16.640 in some articles in the two thousands they talked about 19 00:01:16.640 --> 00:01:19.519 how they ran the DNA through some criminal databases and 20 00:01:19.560 --> 00:01:22.400 it failed to match anyone, and that they were collecting 21 00:01:22.480 --> 00:01:25.519 DNA samples from a whole bunch of potential suspects and 22 00:01:25.560 --> 00:01:28.799 people from Rogers' personal life, But there were apparently six 23 00:01:28.879 --> 00:01:32.760 people who refused to provide the DNA voluntarily. They did 24 00:01:32.760 --> 00:01:35.319 not mention in the article who these six people were, 25 00:01:35.480 --> 00:01:38.239 but obviously me know that six people were not in 26 00:01:38.319 --> 00:01:40.560 on this crime. So I guess that's just a lot 27 00:01:40.560 --> 00:01:42.760 of people who were pair right about not turning over 28 00:01:42.799 --> 00:01:44.159 their DNA to law enforcement. 29 00:01:45.000 --> 00:01:48.879 Well, I can understand that to a degree, especially back then. 30 00:01:49.319 --> 00:01:51.840 I don't know what year that was, but it was 31 00:01:51.879 --> 00:01:54.560 still early on kind of in the infancy of DNA, 32 00:01:55.120 --> 00:01:57.480 and so a lot of people thought, like, what sorcery 33 00:01:57.560 --> 00:02:00.400 is this? This can't be accurate. What if there able 34 00:02:00.439 --> 00:02:02.799 to like nail me for a crime that I didn't commit. 35 00:02:03.120 --> 00:02:06.319 There was a lot of unknowns with DNA, and now 36 00:02:06.359 --> 00:02:10.000 it's really trusted. Even though it's become more complex now 37 00:02:10.080 --> 00:02:14.840 because of touch DNA and the more sophisticated the technology gets, 38 00:02:15.199 --> 00:02:18.199 there's a lot of ways that DNA can come into 39 00:02:18.240 --> 00:02:21.879 a scene that isn't necessarily the DNA at the killer. 40 00:02:22.319 --> 00:02:26.360 And so moving forward, I mean with people when they're 41 00:02:26.360 --> 00:02:30.479 committing crimes to think about like what could possibly get 42 00:02:30.520 --> 00:02:34.240 you nailed? I mean maybe even breathing at a crime scene. 43 00:02:34.360 --> 00:02:36.919 If they're taking like samples of air, in the future, 44 00:02:36.960 --> 00:02:39.479 maybe they're able to get DNA from the little bits 45 00:02:39.479 --> 00:02:42.319 of spittle that like goes into the air that's in 46 00:02:42.479 --> 00:02:45.240 the in the cloud. Like it's insane to think of 47 00:02:45.800 --> 00:02:49.039 what type of advances in technology in ten twenty thirty 48 00:02:49.159 --> 00:02:52.599 years that people now they think they're being careful by, 49 00:02:52.639 --> 00:02:56.080 you know, wearing gloves and doing all these sorts of things, 50 00:02:56.080 --> 00:03:00.479 putting back their hair, that they're not leaving anything behind. Well, 51 00:03:00.520 --> 00:03:02.680 there's going to be things they're leaving behind that they're 52 00:03:02.719 --> 00:03:05.439 just not even considering, like back in nineteen eighty five, 53 00:03:05.560 --> 00:03:08.199 thinking oh, it's okay to throw away a mask, like 54 00:03:08.240 --> 00:03:09.639 it's not a big deal. They're not going to be 55 00:03:09.639 --> 00:03:10.599 able to trace it to me. 56 00:03:11.800 --> 00:03:14.080 Yeah, we have seen so many cold cases from like 57 00:03:14.120 --> 00:03:16.360 the seventies and eighties get solved where the killer left 58 00:03:16.400 --> 00:03:19.000 something like a Kleenex or they left a cigarette behind, 59 00:03:19.080 --> 00:03:21.360 and they're probably thinking, all these years later, damn, I 60 00:03:21.400 --> 00:03:23.879 wish I hadn't smoked at my murder scene because that 61 00:03:23.960 --> 00:03:28.319 led to my undoing forty years later. So tragically, DJ 62 00:03:28.520 --> 00:03:31.479 passed away in August of twenty twenty at the age 63 00:03:31.479 --> 00:03:34.479 of eighty eight. And it's always sad when family members 64 00:03:34.520 --> 00:03:37.800 of murder victims die without ever getting any sort of resolution. 65 00:03:38.280 --> 00:03:41.520 And it's particularly sad here because we finally would get 66 00:03:41.599 --> 00:03:44.560 some sort of conclusion in this case, only about eight 67 00:03:44.639 --> 00:03:47.680 months after DJ passed away, So that makes it all 68 00:03:47.719 --> 00:03:49.840 the more sad that she just didn't manage to live 69 00:03:49.879 --> 00:03:52.879 long enough to see her husband's killer wrot to justice. 70 00:03:53.039 --> 00:03:56.560 That's bittersweet. I mean, at least Tammy is alive and 71 00:03:56.639 --> 00:04:02.159 able to see justice served, but went through so much 72 00:04:02.199 --> 00:04:05.439 in her life. She experienced more loss than any other 73 00:04:05.520 --> 00:04:09.400 individual should ever have to bear. And then for her 74 00:04:09.639 --> 00:04:15.000 to pass away six months before this individual's charged and 75 00:04:15.039 --> 00:04:18.079 there's some resolution, it just doesn't seem fair. 76 00:04:19.720 --> 00:04:21.360 It doesn't, know, because it would have been all the 77 00:04:21.360 --> 00:04:23.600 more satisfying that the hell she was put through to 78 00:04:23.680 --> 00:04:26.839 finally get to face the her husband's killer in court 79 00:04:26.879 --> 00:04:29.720 and stuff and finally realize that after thirty five years, 80 00:04:29.759 --> 00:04:31.920 I am finally safe. He's not out there and he's 81 00:04:31.959 --> 00:04:33.839 not gonna harm me. So it is just kind of 82 00:04:33.839 --> 00:04:36.879 bittersweet that she had to pass away like that. So 83 00:04:37.040 --> 00:04:39.360 let's talk about how they finally solved this case, and 84 00:04:39.399 --> 00:04:43.040 as you probably guessed, it was through DNA and genetic genealogy. 85 00:04:43.240 --> 00:04:45.800 When they first started testing the DNA back in the 86 00:04:45.839 --> 00:04:49.279 mid two thousands, they did not have genetic genealogy, but 87 00:04:49.360 --> 00:04:52.120 they started using it. They entered the DNA samples into 88 00:04:52.160 --> 00:04:55.639 a genealogical database and it was eventually traced to a 89 00:04:55.680 --> 00:04:59.160 suspect named Michael Jefferson, who was now sixty four years old. 90 00:04:59.519 --> 00:05:02.480 He was only living in New Orleans, but back in 91 00:05:02.560 --> 00:05:05.399 nineteen eighty five he had lived in Colorado, and he 92 00:05:05.439 --> 00:05:08.519 also had a past criminal record, so he seemed like 93 00:05:08.560 --> 00:05:11.680 a viable suspect. So of course, when you match up 94 00:05:11.720 --> 00:05:15.079 evidence to suspects DNA in a database, you can't officially 95 00:05:15.199 --> 00:05:17.839 arrest them until you can collect a sample of their 96 00:05:17.920 --> 00:05:21.040 DNA to make a conclusive match. So what they did 97 00:05:21.079 --> 00:05:24.639 is they put Jefferson under surveillance, and he actually boarded 98 00:05:24.639 --> 00:05:26.839 a flight to Los Angeles in order to go visit 99 00:05:26.879 --> 00:05:30.439 his family and was followed by two deputies who stayed 100 00:05:30.439 --> 00:05:32.519 on the flight kept an eye on him, and when 101 00:05:32.519 --> 00:05:35.360 they saw him throw out a water bottle, they actually 102 00:05:35.600 --> 00:05:38.279 went up to the flight attendants collected the bottle and 103 00:05:38.399 --> 00:05:41.319 preserved it as evidence. And after they landed, they performed 104 00:05:41.360 --> 00:05:44.360 testing on the DNA on the water bottle, compared it 105 00:05:44.399 --> 00:05:47.040 to the DNA from the hair samples on the killer's match, 106 00:05:47.079 --> 00:05:49.000 and it turned out it was a match, so they 107 00:05:49.000 --> 00:05:51.759 were able to swear at an arrest warrant, go to 108 00:05:51.839 --> 00:05:55.800 Jefferson's family's home in Los Angeles, and finally arrest him 109 00:05:55.800 --> 00:05:57.600 and charge him with rogers murder. 110 00:05:58.480 --> 00:06:02.920 Well, damn, that is a really good use of resources 111 00:06:03.399 --> 00:06:06.399 to follow him around get that water bottle, and I 112 00:06:06.439 --> 00:06:09.519 mean got a wonder too. Like a lot of times, killers, 113 00:06:09.519 --> 00:06:13.279 when they're aware that the authorities don't have their DNA, 114 00:06:13.759 --> 00:06:17.600 they often are very careful with what they dispose of 115 00:06:18.040 --> 00:06:22.000 in any public places and even what they touch exactly. 116 00:06:22.040 --> 00:06:24.199 Like I have no idea if Jefferson was aware of 117 00:06:24.240 --> 00:06:26.600 how DNA worked, if he knew he was being followed 118 00:06:26.680 --> 00:06:29.160 or anything, but we have seen like other cases where 119 00:06:29.160 --> 00:06:31.600 they'll follow a suspect around, they'll go to like a 120 00:06:31.600 --> 00:06:34.639 fast food restaurant, and after they dispose of their their 121 00:06:34.680 --> 00:06:37.319 cop or like their wrapper or something, then they'll collect 122 00:06:37.360 --> 00:06:39.879 it from the garbage to get their DNA. But this 123 00:06:40.000 --> 00:06:41.959 was an extra mile, like boarding a flight from New 124 00:06:42.120 --> 00:06:44.680 Orleans to Los Angeles and following him to another state 125 00:06:44.839 --> 00:06:47.519 just so you can collect something containing his DNA. But 126 00:06:47.759 --> 00:06:49.920 it did pay off, and I'm sure Jefferson was taken 127 00:06:49.959 --> 00:06:52.399 by complete surprise when he's staying with his family and 128 00:06:52.439 --> 00:06:54.360 then all of a sudden they break down the door 129 00:06:54.399 --> 00:06:55.600 and then finally arrest him. 130 00:06:55.839 --> 00:06:57.920 That is an incredible amount of commitment. 131 00:06:58.639 --> 00:07:01.600 Yeah, and I'm glad to see that it paid off well. 132 00:07:01.879 --> 00:07:04.079 When I first learned this news, I was taken by 133 00:07:04.120 --> 00:07:07.839 complete surprise when I saw Jefferson's mugshot because he is 134 00:07:07.920 --> 00:07:10.959 a black man, and for many years it had always 135 00:07:10.959 --> 00:07:14.560 been put forward that Rogers killer was white. I mean, 136 00:07:14.600 --> 00:07:17.480 I know that he wore a sche mask throughout the 137 00:07:17.480 --> 00:07:20.240 whole thing, but unsaw mysteries. They made it look like 138 00:07:20.360 --> 00:07:22.519 sound like he was white, and they portrayed a white 139 00:07:22.600 --> 00:07:25.600 actor to play the killer during the reenactments. So this 140 00:07:25.720 --> 00:07:28.199 completely threw me for a loop. But then I found 141 00:07:28.240 --> 00:07:30.160 out that on the morning of the murder that a 142 00:07:30.279 --> 00:07:33.600 little girl who lived in Roger's neighborhood had been looking 143 00:07:33.639 --> 00:07:36.399 out her bedroom window after she heard the gunshots and 144 00:07:36.519 --> 00:07:38.759 said she saw a black man running away down the 145 00:07:38.800 --> 00:07:41.680 street and climbing into a parked car before he drove away, 146 00:07:42.319 --> 00:07:46.319 so investigators, for whatever reason, were skeptical he tried to 147 00:07:46.360 --> 00:07:48.879 reenact the situation. So they went up into this girl's 148 00:07:48.959 --> 00:07:52.000 room and looked down at a white police officer running 149 00:07:52.000 --> 00:07:54.839 that same route past like a whole bunch of bright 150 00:07:54.879 --> 00:07:58.120 white snow. And they said that the police officer from 151 00:07:58.120 --> 00:08:00.680 that angle kind of looked like he was dark skinned. 152 00:08:01.000 --> 00:08:03.439 So they figured that the girl must have been mistaken 153 00:08:03.439 --> 00:08:06.600 and that the suspect was white. But it turned out 154 00:08:06.680 --> 00:08:08.920 it was a black man all along. And they actually 155 00:08:08.959 --> 00:08:11.399 went back and interviewed this girl who's now an adult, 156 00:08:11.439 --> 00:08:13.480 and she essentially said, I told you so. 157 00:08:14.399 --> 00:08:17.839 That is really funny, especially since she remembers that from 158 00:08:17.839 --> 00:08:19.480 when she was a little kid. And she's like, all 159 00:08:19.519 --> 00:08:22.360 these adults aren't listening to me. I know what I saw, 160 00:08:23.079 --> 00:08:26.079 and nobody's listening. They're all thinking of some white guy. 161 00:08:26.360 --> 00:08:29.040 I think he does throw people when someone's wearing a mask, 162 00:08:29.240 --> 00:08:32.639 But he disposed of his mask in the home, so 163 00:08:32.759 --> 00:08:35.720 the other people that saw him, you'd think that they 164 00:08:35.759 --> 00:08:37.600 would have noticed that he was black. 165 00:08:38.840 --> 00:08:40.879 I don't think there were any other witnesses. I think 166 00:08:40.919 --> 00:08:42.960 that girl was the only one who saw him running away. 167 00:08:42.960 --> 00:08:45.120 There are other people who saw what they described as 168 00:08:45.159 --> 00:08:47.240 a man sitting in that car, but I don't think 169 00:08:47.240 --> 00:08:49.200 they saw his face, or they were too far away 170 00:08:49.200 --> 00:08:52.720 that they couldn't tell his race. And because DJ only 171 00:08:52.759 --> 00:08:54.639 saw him with the mask and she had duct tape 172 00:08:54.639 --> 00:08:56.320 put over her eyes, she really didn't get a close 173 00:08:56.399 --> 00:08:58.320 enough look to discern if it could have been a 174 00:08:58.360 --> 00:09:00.399 white man or a black man under the mask. But 175 00:09:00.519 --> 00:09:03.440 for many years, the authorities were operating under the assumption 176 00:09:03.480 --> 00:09:05.600 that was a white man. And now I'm wonder is 177 00:09:05.600 --> 00:09:07.559 how many leads did they look at that turned out 178 00:09:07.600 --> 00:09:10.399 to go nowhere? Because I'm pretty sure that the secretary's 179 00:09:10.399 --> 00:09:13.519 son was a white guy as well, and I really 180 00:09:13.519 --> 00:09:15.879 don't think they looked at any black guys. So per 181 00:09:16.039 --> 00:09:18.399 usual when all these cold cases are solved after so 182 00:09:18.440 --> 00:09:20.919 many decades, the suspect turned out to be someone who 183 00:09:20.960 --> 00:09:22.519 was never on the radar at all. 184 00:09:23.000 --> 00:09:26.440 I guess they were just working with probabilities, right. Usually 185 00:09:26.639 --> 00:09:30.600 when a crime is committed, if the victim is white, 186 00:09:30.679 --> 00:09:33.799 then typically the perpetrator is white. Like That's not always 187 00:09:33.840 --> 00:09:37.080 the case, but more often than not it is. And 188 00:09:37.159 --> 00:09:40.240 so the fact that they discounted what this little girl said, 189 00:09:40.480 --> 00:09:42.480 like you said she was the only witness that saw 190 00:09:42.559 --> 00:09:46.000 somebody running away, and they're like, oh, yeah, from this angle, 191 00:09:46.159 --> 00:09:48.679 they could have been darker. But it's like you went 192 00:09:48.799 --> 00:09:52.080 in there trying to disprove what she saw because other 193 00:09:52.120 --> 00:09:54.840 people may have seen someone who was white. You already 194 00:09:54.840 --> 00:09:57.720 have this tunnel vision believing that the perpetrator was white, 195 00:09:57.919 --> 00:10:02.480 and so you actively tried to discount what this little 196 00:10:02.480 --> 00:10:05.799 girl said and disprove it so that your theory of 197 00:10:05.840 --> 00:10:09.279 the crime could be the correct one. And to the 198 00:10:09.320 --> 00:10:10.519 detriment of the case. 199 00:10:11.879 --> 00:10:14.360 Yeah, it was definitely confirmation bias here, and I think 200 00:10:14.440 --> 00:10:16.360 that maybe they would have looked at things from a 201 00:10:16.360 --> 00:10:18.440 different angle, like maybe they at the time they found 202 00:10:18.480 --> 00:10:21.120 out that Roger Dean had some sort of personal connection 203 00:10:21.200 --> 00:10:24.120 with Michael Jefferson, but they completely dismissed him because he 204 00:10:24.200 --> 00:10:26.399 was a black guy, and they figured the killer was white. 205 00:10:26.600 --> 00:10:28.759 So I really don't hope that this prevented them from 206 00:10:28.799 --> 00:10:32.080 solving the case from many decades because of their confirmation bias. 207 00:10:32.480 --> 00:10:35.000 So here comes the most craziest part. I actually have 208 00:10:35.120 --> 00:10:39.200 kind of a personal connection to this case. Jefferson's arrest 209 00:10:39.320 --> 00:10:42.639 was announced by the authorities on April ninth, twenty twenty one, 210 00:10:43.080 --> 00:10:46.279 but they actually arrested him a couple weeks beforehand and 211 00:10:46.399 --> 00:10:48.720 just did not make it public until that exact date 212 00:10:48.799 --> 00:10:50.440 because they had to get him. They got him in 213 00:10:50.480 --> 00:10:53.080 Los Angeles, they had to extride him back to Colorado, 214 00:10:53.440 --> 00:10:54.919 so there was a lot of stuff to do before 215 00:10:54.919 --> 00:10:58.240 they could make the announcement. Well, a couple weeks beforehand, 216 00:10:58.279 --> 00:11:00.799 I actually received an email from a who said he 217 00:11:00.840 --> 00:11:03.639 had listened to my Trail with Cold episode and he 218 00:11:03.639 --> 00:11:06.480 asked me a specific question. He said, on the episode, 219 00:11:06.480 --> 00:11:08.799 you mentioned that there were six people who refused to 220 00:11:08.799 --> 00:11:11.799 give their DNA over during the investigation. Do you know 221 00:11:11.840 --> 00:11:15.000 who these people were? And I said, sorry, they didn't 222 00:11:15.000 --> 00:11:17.159 publish their names, so I have no idea who they were. 223 00:11:17.240 --> 00:11:19.639 I don't really have any information to offer you. And 224 00:11:19.679 --> 00:11:22.279 then he just casually says, okay, I got a good suspect. 225 00:11:22.320 --> 00:11:25.000 He was just arrested. And I was like, wait a minute, 226 00:11:25.320 --> 00:11:27.720 how I haven't heard anything about that. What's going on? 227 00:11:28.039 --> 00:11:30.600 I didn't really pant no mind, but then a couple 228 00:11:30.720 --> 00:11:33.879 weeks later, I hear the news that Michael Jefferson is arrested. 229 00:11:34.000 --> 00:11:36.039 I go back and look at this guy's email, and 230 00:11:36.120 --> 00:11:37.440 guess what his last name. 231 00:11:37.360 --> 00:11:42.120 Was, Oh, my god, Warder Jefferson. Oh, I'm like, what 232 00:11:42.440 --> 00:11:44.039 who is his last name? When you're like I've got 233 00:11:44.039 --> 00:11:46.600 a personal connection, I'm like, his last name wasn't Warder? 234 00:11:46.720 --> 00:11:50.440 Was it? No? No, it was Jefferson. And when I 235 00:11:50.480 --> 00:11:54.120 look at the timeline here, I am positive that Michael 236 00:11:54.159 --> 00:11:56.799 Jefferson was visiting his family and that this guy who 237 00:11:56.799 --> 00:11:59.879 wrote the email probably witnessed him get arrested. And then 238 00:12:00.000 --> 00:12:02.639 I wanted to go online to find more information about 239 00:12:02.679 --> 00:12:05.320 the crime and found my Trail and Cold episode and 240 00:12:05.360 --> 00:12:08.080 then emailed me, and so I emailed them back saying 241 00:12:08.159 --> 00:12:11.480 are you related to the Michael Jefferson? And unfortunately he 242 00:12:11.559 --> 00:12:15.240 never replied. But I'm confident that emailed me and told 243 00:12:15.279 --> 00:12:18.120 me about Michael Jefferson's arrest before it was made public, 244 00:12:18.159 --> 00:12:20.399 and that he personally witnessed it and looked at my 245 00:12:20.440 --> 00:12:21.919 podcast episode. 246 00:12:21.679 --> 00:12:25.519 That is a wild wow. So I wonder it must 247 00:12:25.519 --> 00:12:28.679 have been one of his relatives. That seems like who 248 00:12:28.720 --> 00:12:31.559 else is going to have the inside scoop on this arrest? 249 00:12:32.039 --> 00:12:34.799 And then you go and look up different podcasts, listen 250 00:12:34.840 --> 00:12:37.320 to yours and be like, oh, I wonder if you 251 00:12:37.360 --> 00:12:40.159 know uncle or cousin or whomever was one of those 252 00:12:40.159 --> 00:12:44.679 people that refused to give DNA. And then later when 253 00:12:44.720 --> 00:12:48.159 you find out that like, actually somebody got arrested, that 254 00:12:48.279 --> 00:12:50.840 this person wasn't just making this up out of thin air, 255 00:12:50.919 --> 00:12:54.399 or they clearly had the inside scoop, that's so wild. Well, 256 00:12:54.399 --> 00:12:57.399 it's much better than the idea of this person being 257 00:12:58.000 --> 00:13:00.320 Jefferson Warder, like, oh. 258 00:13:00.240 --> 00:13:02.559 Yeah, exactly, no, not like that. You know, when I 259 00:13:02.600 --> 00:13:05.039 said personal connection, I meant I had a very loose connect, 260 00:13:05.240 --> 00:13:08.039 not anyone I knew. But as you know, you've heard 261 00:13:08.080 --> 00:13:10.480 the story a million times about me and the killer 262 00:13:10.519 --> 00:13:12.879 of Janelle Matthew Steve Panky that he was one of 263 00:13:12.919 --> 00:13:16.159 my Patreon subscribers. And this is another weird incident in 264 00:13:16.200 --> 00:13:18.679 my podcasting career where I hear from the relative of 265 00:13:18.720 --> 00:13:20.960 a guy who was arrested for murder before it was 266 00:13:21.000 --> 00:13:23.639 made public. And I remember sharing this story with some 267 00:13:23.679 --> 00:13:26.399 of my fellow podcasters because this was only like I 268 00:13:26.440 --> 00:13:29.279 think five or six months after I found out Steve 269 00:13:29.320 --> 00:13:32.200 Panky was on Patriots. So these they essentially said to me, 270 00:13:32.240 --> 00:13:33.639 why does this keep happening to you? 271 00:13:34.480 --> 00:13:38.960 I don't know, You've just somehow attract these people that 272 00:13:39.320 --> 00:13:42.759 you attract the weird and the wonderful, like the best 273 00:13:42.919 --> 00:13:44.039 and some of the worst. 274 00:13:45.039 --> 00:13:47.320 It's true. I've had so many weird stories since my 275 00:13:47.399 --> 00:13:50.600 podcasting career started, both good and bad, and this is 276 00:13:50.639 --> 00:13:54.080 one of the weirder ones. So of course, now that 277 00:13:54.159 --> 00:13:57.320 Jefferson was arrested, I was so anxious for so many 278 00:13:57.399 --> 00:14:00.600 details because I mean, in so many of those there 279 00:14:00.679 --> 00:14:02.759 isn't much of a mystery here. If it like involves 280 00:14:02.759 --> 00:14:05.159 a woman being like raped and murdered, you know that 281 00:14:05.240 --> 00:14:08.759 the killer was likely a sexual predator and they killed 282 00:14:08.759 --> 00:14:11.399 her at random, so you don't really have to ask 283 00:14:11.440 --> 00:14:13.519 a lot of questions about why they did this. But 284 00:14:13.960 --> 00:14:16.080 with this one, there were so many because I wanted 285 00:14:16.080 --> 00:14:18.879 to know, did Michael Jefferson no, Roger Dean, was this 286 00:14:18.960 --> 00:14:22.679 is staged kidnapping? What was his motive? Was Jefferson the 287 00:14:22.679 --> 00:14:25.799 person who called years later and made the extortion attempt? 288 00:14:25.879 --> 00:14:28.679 So I was just anxious to learn more details. But 289 00:14:28.799 --> 00:14:31.720 here we are recording this nearly four years later, and 290 00:14:32.080 --> 00:14:35.039 he has still not gone on trial because there have 291 00:14:35.080 --> 00:14:38.519 been like so many complications for years, they didn't release 292 00:14:38.639 --> 00:14:41.240 anything to the media, Like if you went back and 293 00:14:41.279 --> 00:14:44.600 googled his name. There was nothing about Jefferson's arrest after 294 00:14:44.679 --> 00:14:47.919 April of twenty twenty one, So to try to figure 295 00:14:47.960 --> 00:14:50.440 out what was going on, I kept checking the Colorado 296 00:14:50.519 --> 00:14:54.360 Court dock at website, and for many times throughout twenty 297 00:14:54.440 --> 00:14:58.080 twenty two, twenty twenty three, I would see Jefferson's trial 298 00:14:58.559 --> 00:15:00.720 on the court docket, and then it would just keep 299 00:15:00.759 --> 00:15:05.279 getting inexplicably postponed. And finally I thought it was going 300 00:15:05.320 --> 00:15:08.600 to happen in like July twenty twenty four, and then 301 00:15:08.639 --> 00:15:11.679 it just like disappeared from the court docket. And I'm 302 00:15:11.720 --> 00:15:14.320 just asking myself, what is going on behind the scenes, 303 00:15:14.320 --> 00:15:17.039 because they're not releasing anything, and why is it taking 304 00:15:17.120 --> 00:15:18.919 so long for this case to go to trial? 305 00:15:19.279 --> 00:15:22.039 Okay, so I can understand maybe like the first couple 306 00:15:22.000 --> 00:15:25.320 of years because COVID, I mean, you've got to write 307 00:15:25.360 --> 00:15:28.120 to a speedy trial in the US. So the fact 308 00:15:28.120 --> 00:15:32.159 that this has been incredibly protracted, it seems like this 309 00:15:32.240 --> 00:15:35.600 is the violation of his rights in some capacity. But 310 00:15:35.639 --> 00:15:38.840 I guess we don't know the circumstances as to why 311 00:15:38.879 --> 00:15:42.000 it's been delayed, like maybe there's a health issue, maybe 312 00:15:42.000 --> 00:15:45.200 it's delayed on his side. I have no idea. But 313 00:15:45.240 --> 00:15:48.879 I can understand, like twenty twenty twenty, twenty twenty one, 314 00:15:49.000 --> 00:15:51.960 twenty twenty two, why it would be delayed, but like 315 00:15:52.000 --> 00:15:54.480 why now things seem to be moving smoothly. 316 00:15:55.919 --> 00:15:58.799 Yes, I mean I finally have had learned kind of 317 00:15:58.799 --> 00:16:01.320 a reason why it kept getting And I do have 318 00:16:01.399 --> 00:16:04.000 to give them credit for not allowing any leaks to 319 00:16:04.039 --> 00:16:05.879 get out there, because we've seen with stuff like the 320 00:16:05.960 --> 00:16:08.960 Doufi murders trial that that was surrounded by so much 321 00:16:09.039 --> 00:16:11.919 drama from stuff constantly leaking out to the media, but 322 00:16:12.080 --> 00:16:14.960 this one they kept it tight under wraps. It left 323 00:16:15.000 --> 00:16:18.360 me really frustrated. But I finally got some new news 324 00:16:18.440 --> 00:16:21.879 in July of twenty twenty four when they announced that 325 00:16:21.919 --> 00:16:24.799 there was a scandal going on with the Colorado Bureau 326 00:16:25.039 --> 00:16:29.440 of Investigation involving a forensic scientist named a Bond, Missy Woods. 327 00:16:30.120 --> 00:16:32.440 She had worked for them for twenty nine years and 328 00:16:32.720 --> 00:16:35.840 she had worked on some high profile cases. But I 329 00:16:35.879 --> 00:16:37.960 think there was a lot of controversy because she was 330 00:16:38.000 --> 00:16:41.639 apparently like mishandling or fabricating a lot of the DNA 331 00:16:41.759 --> 00:16:44.960 evidence in a whole bunch of cases, and people were 332 00:16:45.000 --> 00:16:47.080 afraid to speak out until like an intern in her 333 00:16:47.159 --> 00:16:50.159 lab finally went to the authorities and they launched a 334 00:16:50.200 --> 00:16:54.000 full fledged investigation and it's turned into like a major 335 00:16:54.039 --> 00:16:57.639 disaster here, a scandal where they have actually sent out 336 00:16:57.720 --> 00:17:01.480 letters to all the inmates in Colorado prisons who have 337 00:17:01.639 --> 00:17:04.200 had Missy Wood's work on their case and handled the 338 00:17:04.279 --> 00:17:07.079 DNA evidence, and they have said that you know, how 339 00:17:07.240 --> 00:17:09.640 have the legal right to look at all the documentation, 340 00:17:09.759 --> 00:17:13.039 and if you find out that Missy Woods has mishandled 341 00:17:13.160 --> 00:17:15.440 or fabricated your DNA in any way, you have the 342 00:17:15.519 --> 00:17:18.720 right to appeal your conviction. And sure enough I found out, 343 00:17:18.799 --> 00:17:22.160 Oh no, she has handled the DNA in Michael Jefferson's case. Two. 344 00:17:22.640 --> 00:17:29.119 Oh no. So does that mean in your opinion, that 345 00:17:29.200 --> 00:17:33.799 they've got it wrong, that somehow there's something wrong here 346 00:17:34.119 --> 00:17:37.480 or do we just think that like because like when 347 00:17:37.640 --> 00:17:40.400 you've got corruption in that type of capacity, when you've 348 00:17:40.440 --> 00:17:43.960 got somebody who's fabricating results, typically it is not every 349 00:17:43.960 --> 00:17:46.839 single case. It might just be cooking the books for 350 00:17:47.000 --> 00:17:49.400 something where they couldn't get exactly what they wanted. 351 00:17:50.039 --> 00:17:52.359 Yeah. Well, when I first heard this news, I really 352 00:17:52.440 --> 00:17:55.359 didn't know what to think because they hadn't released any 353 00:17:55.400 --> 00:17:58.880 details about what other evidence they had against Jefferson. I mean, 354 00:17:59.240 --> 00:18:01.720 if they had a bunch of other corroborating evidence to 355 00:18:01.759 --> 00:18:03.839 prove he did this, then I'm like, Okay, then he's 356 00:18:03.880 --> 00:18:06.680 probably still guilty. But if all they had was the 357 00:18:06.799 --> 00:18:09.559 DNA match from the genetic genealogy, then that makes it 358 00:18:09.599 --> 00:18:12.480 a bit more questionable. So I was left hanging there, 359 00:18:12.519 --> 00:18:15.440 and then I'm checking the Colorado Court doc a website 360 00:18:15.480 --> 00:18:17.799 and then I see on the dock at there in 361 00:18:17.839 --> 00:18:21.240 October they have sensing hearing, and I'm like, wait a minute, 362 00:18:21.279 --> 00:18:23.200 is this Are they not even having a trial or 363 00:18:23.200 --> 00:18:25.599 are they going to dismiss the charges? But then they 364 00:18:25.599 --> 00:18:28.839 publicly announced that they are offering Jefferson a plea deal, 365 00:18:29.240 --> 00:18:32.319 and that I know that the former lead investigator has 366 00:18:32.319 --> 00:18:34.200 gone on the record saying that I am one hundred 367 00:18:34.200 --> 00:18:37.839 percent certain that Michael Jefferson is the guy. But they're 368 00:18:37.880 --> 00:18:40.559 so worried about this scandal with Missy Woods that this 369 00:18:40.759 --> 00:18:43.039 is going to taint the whole trial that I think 370 00:18:43.039 --> 00:18:44.839 they're worried that they're not going to get a conviction. 371 00:18:45.039 --> 00:18:47.480 So they have offered him a plea deal and they're 372 00:18:47.519 --> 00:18:50.119 going to have a hearing about it in January about 373 00:18:50.160 --> 00:18:52.920 a month after the release of these episodes, so we 374 00:18:53.000 --> 00:18:55.720 will finally get some conclusive answers about how many years 375 00:18:55.720 --> 00:18:58.000 he's going to get to what other evidence they had. 376 00:18:58.400 --> 00:19:00.880 But yeah, this whole thing is been messed up because 377 00:19:00.880 --> 00:19:03.480 of this whole scandal with Missy Woods. 378 00:19:03.519 --> 00:19:08.119 So unfortunate. You expect people that work in investigations to 379 00:19:08.200 --> 00:19:10.920 be beyond reproach, and we know that that isn't true 380 00:19:10.960 --> 00:19:14.119 because human beings are fallible, they make mistakes. We see 381 00:19:14.160 --> 00:19:17.880 corruption in law enforcement all the time, and I guess 382 00:19:17.880 --> 00:19:20.039 that we should expect that the same thing could happen 383 00:19:20.119 --> 00:19:23.640 with scientists. Just because you've got a background in science 384 00:19:24.000 --> 00:19:28.240 doesn't mean that you aren't somebody that could be corrupted 385 00:19:28.279 --> 00:19:31.240 in some capacity. And maybe it's for ego. Maybe it's 386 00:19:31.279 --> 00:19:34.720 because she's a people pleaser and wanted to shore up 387 00:19:34.759 --> 00:19:38.200 cases for law enforcement where something wasn't a solid She 388 00:19:38.359 --> 00:19:40.759 was going to give them what they needed to go forward. 389 00:19:42.119 --> 00:19:45.079 Yeah, I mean, I haven't seen any examples yet of 390 00:19:45.119 --> 00:19:49.480 any convictions being overturned because of Missy Woods's antics. I mean, 391 00:19:49.799 --> 00:19:52.799 it's possible that she helped fabricate some evidence against some 392 00:19:52.839 --> 00:19:55.680 guilty people and hasn't put any innocent people in prison 393 00:19:55.759 --> 00:19:59.079 yet we just don't know. But in Michael Jefferson's case, 394 00:19:59.119 --> 00:20:02.039 I know that lead investigator says that he's quite unhappy 395 00:20:02.119 --> 00:20:05.559 about this, and I know that Tammy hasn't publicly commented 396 00:20:05.599 --> 00:20:08.920 on the situation, but they have said that Rogers' family 397 00:20:09.000 --> 00:20:12.319 is not happy as well. It says that the maximum 398 00:20:12.400 --> 00:20:15.440 Jefferson could receive as a thirty two year sentence, and 399 00:20:15.519 --> 00:20:18.039 if he does get that, that's essentially a life sentence 400 00:20:18.079 --> 00:20:20.680 because he's now sixty eight years old. But part of 401 00:20:20.720 --> 00:20:22.799