Speaker 1: Jamie, could you make me I express?
Speaker 2: So okay, we're gonna open it up. Let's keep it
Speaker 2: on topic.
Speaker 3: One plus one plus one equal free icons are Ideala, Tree, Jay,
Speaker 3: j but Jay, can I talk?
Speaker 2: But it wasn't.
Speaker 1: Next, cathod draf God is real?
Speaker 4: Wife?
Speaker 1: Does he allow evil? Why do you pray to dead people?
Speaker 1: Traditions of men? It's a no brainer. You're such a
Speaker 1: tyrannical rainer.
Speaker 3: Is this your first.
Speaker 5: Time on the in or wesh?
Speaker 6: I need a changer, Joe can't think of.
Speaker 1: These loads your slow boys?
Speaker 3: Is this your first time on the in or wesh?
Speaker 4: I need to changer?
Speaker 7: Joe?
Speaker 6: Was that an uncreative foot part?
Speaker 2: Unmute, dude?
Speaker 1: Stop repeating my name?
Speaker 4: Dude?
Speaker 2: You Goober's callin or I'll boot you. Where did you
Speaker 2: get the Bible from? Have you read the Canons of Franzia?
Speaker 7: What are you Catholic?
Speaker 1: Are you promisants?
Speaker 3: I'm not trying to be mean, but do you have
Speaker 3: an actual argument?
Speaker 2: There is only one church? You are in a cult.
Speaker 1: You're a goblin, a demon, a boomer?
Speaker 4: Quick question?
Speaker 1: Do we have any diddyback venerators in the chat?
Speaker 2: How is this your first time on.
Speaker 1: Being or well, I need a chance take it these loads?
Speaker 7: You're slow boys?
Speaker 1: Are you?
Speaker 2: Is this your first time momby wes?
Speaker 3: I need a If you're a wine on front of
Speaker 3: the line.
Speaker 1: I'm mute, dude, what is your epistemic justification?
Speaker 8: That argument is circular and you are refuted.
Speaker 3: Is this your first time on me? Or where shay
Speaker 3: I need a show? Can't take these littles.
Speaker 1: You're snow boying. Is this your first time on me?
Speaker 3: Or where I need to change your show? If you're
Speaker 3: a lie in front of the lie.
Speaker 9: On mute, dude, it's that time to get you're freaking
Speaker 9: Oh wait, that's the wrong time. That's not this time?
Speaker 9: Is this time?
Speaker 1: So where do we get the Bible from? Did you
Speaker 1: even read the cannons? There is only one charge. You
Speaker 1: are in an occult.
Speaker 10: You're a gobbling a demon, a bull merchard.
Speaker 7: You saw me?
Speaker 4: I'm your dude?
Speaker 6: Is this your personal webs?
Speaker 2: I need a gender jew can't take it.
Speaker 4: He's little to your.
Speaker 6: Boys on your dude, I want us one plus one
Speaker 6: equal free.
Speaker 1: It comes out the dollar tree.
Speaker 11: Why do you pray?
Speaker 1: Eat the dead people?
Speaker 6: The traditions madden you? Heretic on your fude, is this
Speaker 6: your per webs shack.
Speaker 7: I need a gender jew can't take it.
Speaker 4: He's little to your.
Speaker 1: Boys, I'm your dude.
Speaker 4: What's your pistemic justification?
Speaker 9: Welcome in circular.
Speaker 4: To Jamie.
Speaker 2: At the monkey. You find off in that.
Speaker 9: What you're doing up there? Why you scared?
Speaker 11: Why you run it roun.
Speaker 1: Themy bab.
Speaker 12: You ran my manto and from me?
Speaker 6: Then till the monkey.
Speaker 1: Like the female monkeys.
Speaker 5: With the bananas between the trees, hanging.
Speaker 6: Down upside down, that's a smile. SI, tell the monkey
Speaker 6: what you doing to me?
Speaker 1: Till it to a monkey, till a mallcky.
Speaker 9: Isn't this the trump downs? What's due to me?
Speaker 4: That's true?
Speaker 9: The road takes you. Chevy is ready to dar No,
Speaker 9: can't let advertisements ruined the beauty. Welcome everybody. It's that time.
Speaker 9: It's that time to get down and Sneezy. We're talking
Speaker 9: about all of the dang seven Dwarfs. Sneezy Snorty y'all,
Speaker 9: y'all know about Snorty the dwarf. He was over there
Speaker 9: doing a little of that cocaine. Little little snorty dwarf,
Speaker 9: like the O Bonn says, there was skanky. He was
Speaker 9: one of the Dwarfs. He was a nasty, just trashy kid,
Speaker 9: grew up in a trailer, drew up, he grew up
Speaker 9: in a living in out of a bus, and then
Speaker 9: got recruited into the Dwarf. In the Dwarf. Ops, that
Speaker 9: was Skanky the Dwarf. There was Snorty, Sneezy Snorty was
Speaker 9: all about cocaine. Skanky slutty the Dwarf. He was all
Speaker 9: about hoeing around town. So the allergies are turned up
Speaker 9: to eleven. I'm sorry, but you know, it's just how
Speaker 9: it is living down here in Cuba, down here with
Speaker 9: Operation Mongoose, Operation Mongoose of the CIA's y'all heard of that.
Speaker 9: Welcome everybody, It's open for him today. I wanted to
Speaker 9: try to try a different title. We'll see what happens.
Speaker 9: Protestantism is false. Prove me wrong, like like Steve Crowder
Speaker 9: style where you got to prove me wrong, Jay finally
Speaker 9: lost it. I don't want people like I do the
Speaker 9: same nonsense every time I'm sitting in front of this
Speaker 9: computer screen, every time I'm lobstream, and it's the same nonsense.
Speaker 9: You would think you guys would know it by now.
Speaker 9: H Brosey ten dollars. Have you seen what rid von
Speaker 9: AP's been posting? Yeah, I just DMed him. I DMed
Speaker 9: him the other day. I mean, I don't know what
Speaker 9: to say. I mean, what do you want me to do?
Speaker 9: I mean, I've offered to debate. I've offered to discuss
Speaker 9: the topics. I mean, anybody who wants to learn or
Speaker 9: whatever could always hop on these streams. Is very easy
Speaker 9: to do. They can come over here if they want to.
Speaker 9: When you got a debate, Pastor Randy Balls bread in
Speaker 9: ten dollars, that's one debate. I am scared of. People say, who,
Speaker 9: why are you scared of debate? So and so I'm
Speaker 9: not scared of debate anybody except for Pastor Randy Balls.
Speaker 9: Rozie says. I understand he's new, everybody has baggage, but
Speaker 9: he sounded like a subverter. To be honest, he needs
Speaker 9: to be checked. I mean, if he keeps pushing you know,
Speaker 9: LPTA for us and that kind of stuff, then yeah,
Speaker 9: I mean it's unfortunate, but we'll see Kyle Kosha twenty bucks. Respectfully,
Speaker 9: how is Christianity the One True Faith? Which brand of Christianity? Well,
Speaker 9: I mean the fact that people disagree doesn't prove or
Speaker 9: disprove anything. Every position out there is going to have
Speaker 9: people within it or adjacent to it that disagree with it.
Speaker 9: But people mistake disagreements and debate, with the truth itself
Speaker 9: being unknowable. Which brand of Christianity is a correct one? Well,
Speaker 9: you're going to have to spend some time and learn
Speaker 9: about it, because there's no other way really to deal
Speaker 9: with the competing claims. But just because there's competing claims
Speaker 9: doesn't invalidate the system itself. Otherwise every system would be
Speaker 9: invalidated because everybody has competing claims. How can I If
Speaker 9: I can't trust mainstream media, why would I trust two
Speaker 9: thousand year old texts? Well, that's a false equivalence. The
Speaker 9: fact that something old doesn't necessarily mean it's true or false.
Speaker 9: But mainstream media has a repeated record of being demonstrably false,
Speaker 9: So I would just say those are false equivalences. But again,
Speaker 9: I make the argument, if you're a skeptic, skepticism is
Speaker 9: self refuting, all right, And if that's self refuting, then
Speaker 9: what are the options for non skeptical positions? And that's
Speaker 9: what moves us into tags, what moves us into arguments
Speaker 9: for the positions that we have. So if there's a
Speaker 9: better position, then somebody needs to come argue those positions.
Speaker 9: But Kyle, you're welcome to call in. It's open for him.
Speaker 9: We got already about five or six people in line.
Speaker 9: The link is in the chat. It's also in the
Speaker 9: show description. You can call in to debate or ask
Speaker 9: questions right here. Today. I thought I saw gigantic Protestant
Speaker 9: profiles everywhere and just mega followings of Protestant thought leaders
Speaker 9: or whatever they are. So I thought, you know, we
Speaker 9: spent so much time debating Roman Catholics and Romanclachs are
Speaker 9: welcome calling today too. I don't care. So it's still
Speaker 9: somewhat open. But I'm just trying out a different headline,
Speaker 9: a different title to refute. See if you can get
Speaker 9: some of these Protestants in here, because multiple Protestants have
Speaker 9: made videos about me this week. So JW two dollars
Speaker 9: debate n JF on the role of geopolitics in the Vatican.
Speaker 9: I mean, I heard a clip of him the other
Speaker 9: day admitting that the geopolitical elements have subverted the Catholic Church,
Speaker 9: so it's difficult to defend it is what he said.
Speaker 9: I don't know if he's an old clipper or a
Speaker 9: new clip or what. But I don't know that he
Speaker 9: wants to have that debate. J Man ten dollars, have
Speaker 9: a blessed lint. Keep fighting. Thank you, Jordaane Jordaan ten Bucks.
Speaker 9: You must forsake Yakubian punctuality. Yet today I was on
Speaker 9: time and punctual. But that's because of yakub Warpick Gaming.
Speaker 9: Shout out to Warpick Gaming. He hopped in here, became
Speaker 9: a member. Remember, you can become a member through YouTube
Speaker 9: or through the website as well. You can go to
Speaker 9: the Jaysonnalysis website and sign up. Become a member, get
Speaker 9: access to all the last ten years of archived lectures, talks, podcasts, interviews,
Speaker 9: book reviews, deep geopolitical conspiratorial true conspiratorial analysis where we
Speaker 9: go into espionage and the real that's real conspiracy, right conspiracy.
Speaker 9: That's all this like cornball shit like Tartaria and stuff
Speaker 9: like that. That's that's fake stuff. Real conspiracy is James
Speaker 9: Jesus Angleton and backdoor channels to foreign nations and JFK.
Speaker 9: That's real conspiracy. Austin Austin Kyle Bucks, thank you, for
Speaker 9: all your content, Jay, you help me find in the
Speaker 9: way to the orthoxy. Appreciate that, dude, Zach fifteen dollars,
Speaker 9: I appreciate all your work. Are we going to get
Speaker 9: a Sam Shumun discussion anytime soon? I don't know.
Speaker 4: I mean.
Speaker 9: Again, we're still discussing the possibility of doing rival presentations
Speaker 9: on Sam's channel between me and Albrecht, So I don't
Speaker 9: know if that's gonna happen or when that's going to happen,
Speaker 9: but it's always they're the possibilities there. Nikki d what's up?
Speaker 4: Man?
Speaker 9: If you guys would hit like and share, what's up?
Speaker 9: Nikki dep I'm you, hey, Jake.
Speaker 7: Yeah, I just want to say that that the status
Speaker 7: quo that Protestants enable is perfection. What I just want
Speaker 7: to say, the status quo Protestants enable is perfection.
Speaker 9: You know that what does that matter? What does that mean?
Speaker 7: I mean, I mean whole.
Speaker 13: White like snow white, whole white and the seven Blood
Speaker 13: Diamond Dwarfs like the Protestants by their Salvationist theology, you know,
Speaker 13: they they are in denial that a problem exists and
Speaker 13: they can just ask for forgiveness on their deathbat about it.
Speaker 14: You know.
Speaker 9: Yeah, that's a difficulty because there's not really a change
Speaker 9: that's required in the person ocean apg man, what's up, good,
Speaker 9: I'm you? Oh wait hello, hey, right, sorry, quick question.
Speaker 11: So what's the difference of Like, where do you draw
Speaker 11: the line between continue with the Old Testament and judea isa?
Speaker 9: Well, I think the New Testament lays down some guidelines
Speaker 9: and then the rest of the Apostolic tradition would be
Speaker 9: the other guidelines. So the guidance of the church as
Speaker 9: the established authority being via Apostolic succession, the College of
Speaker 9: the Apostles that Jesus set up, they would be able
Speaker 9: to make further decisions as you see for example in
Speaker 9: the quarter Disseminarian controversy in the second third century, the
Speaker 9: Nicene Council ruling on some of these things as to
Speaker 9: what's appropriate and not appropriate in terms of the Old Testament.
Speaker 9: So it's a twofold thing between what's in the New
Speaker 9: Testament and what the Apostolic tradition and the Apsoltic succession rules.
Speaker 11: Okay, so basically, well, correct me if I'm wrong. But
Speaker 11: what I'm kind of hearing is that the way to
Speaker 11: so the difference is it's kind of close, like they're
Speaker 11: pretty related. And the only way to avoid falling into
Speaker 11: like judaizing you hatra rely in the church, is that
Speaker 11: what you're kind of saying.
Speaker 9: The principles are laid down in the New Testament in
Speaker 9: general as to what things are fulfilled and which things
Speaker 9: are still quote binding. But Jesus gave the apostles the
Speaker 9: authority to bind and to loose and to make those decisions,
Speaker 9: and their successors have that same authority to bind and
Speaker 9: to loose, So that means the ability to decide what
Speaker 9: things are normative, for example, for gentiles to come into
Speaker 9: the church. And if you look at Acts fifteen, that's
Speaker 9: an example of that binding and loosing power. Where the
Speaker 9: apostles get together they look at the Covenant of Noah
Speaker 9: and they reason that if Noah was able to be
Speaker 9: made righteous through the Noeic Covenant, then the expectation should
Speaker 9: be no more for gentiles that convert to the Church.
Speaker 9: And that same principle is what you see in the first, second,
Speaker 9: and third century when the Church has to make similar
Speaker 9: types of decisions.
Speaker 4: Okay, thank you, yes, that was a good question.
Speaker 9: Quell quell unbreller, and then we'll go to Erwan.
Speaker 10: H.
Speaker 9: Brozy sends five bucks and says, lmfao that dude started
Speaker 9: off son it's goods so as as f but he
Speaker 9: redeemed himself. He made a decent point. Yeah, I think
Speaker 9: so cool. A two dollars. I appreciate your work bringing
Speaker 9: people to the truth. Thank you, man, appreciate that. Theosis
Speaker 9: Pilgrim ten dollars. You There. Genesis Creation Early Man is
Speaker 9: back in print.
Speaker 4: Yes, I know.
Speaker 9: I think I tweeted about it or talked about it
Speaker 9: on a recent stream. Erwan, you want to I'm mute, Hey.
Speaker 15: Jay, I just had a question, who do you think
Speaker 15: would win in a fight between Yakub and Messiah and sasquestion.
Speaker 9: I'm wondering if Yakoub might actually be incarnate as Messiah
Speaker 9: been Sasquatch. So that's actually a trick question, Joshua. Theosis
Speaker 9: Pilgrim said that Early Genesis Creation, Early Man, my father
Speaker 9: siprom Ros is back in print. It's a hardcover, good quality.
Speaker 9: I laugh pretty hard at Messiah and Sasquatch. Well, I
Speaker 9: couldn't believe that one of the Mormon prophets claims that
Speaker 9: Sasquatch is real and it's Kane. We went and looked
Speaker 9: it up Joshua and mute, what's up?
Speaker 16: Man?
Speaker 4: Yeah, what's happened? I just have one question. Do you
Speaker 4: think Protestants are going to Hell or not?
Speaker 9: I mean, I don't judge people on an individual basis,
Speaker 9: but I judge the public confession of their groups. So
Speaker 9: this is this is what's called in the tradition of
Speaker 9: legal theory jurisprudence, you know, a public judgment. So public
Speaker 9: judgment means I'm judging the profession of that group and
Speaker 9: what they stand for. It doesn't mean that I know
Speaker 9: the eternal destiny of each of those persons. But Protestantism
Speaker 9: is really just a confluence of almost all of the
Speaker 9: ancient heresies of the first six seventh centuries, all right.
Speaker 9: I mean, I'm just thinking more and more about how Americanists,
Speaker 9: you know, Protestanism is and just how you know, it's
Speaker 9: really just a do it yourself. I don't need anyone else,
Speaker 9: I don't need anything else. And you see all of
Speaker 9: these you know, influencers with all of these you know,
Speaker 9: millions of people, and it's just like, how do how
Speaker 9: do people? Does it just never occur to anybody that
Speaker 9: there's a history to all this stuff. So guys remember
Speaker 9: looking for people who would like to discuss the topics
Speaker 9: as listed, particularly Protestantism, but it's also open to Catholics, Muslims, whoever.
Speaker 9: Quelln Rayler, Okay, I'm mute.
Speaker 17: Yeah, I was just went to say anyway, my question
Speaker 17: is related to eschatology. You know how like the institution
Speaker 17: of meat, right, God instituted the eating of meat, and
Speaker 17: after price res Russian, he ate a fish. So do
Speaker 17: you think that in the Esketon, since there's no death,
Speaker 17: how are we gonna eat fish?
Speaker 9: And like meat and stuff, our bodies won't need that
Speaker 9: type of sustenance. I think he does it as a
Speaker 9: condescension to show that it's the same body as before.
Speaker 9: I don't think he did it because his body needed
Speaker 9: that sustenance. And in the Esketon, our bodies will not
Speaker 9: need the type of sustenance that we need now. It'll
Speaker 9: be a glorified body. So I don't think there will
Speaker 9: be eating of meat now, Carl Minger, it won't be necessary.
Speaker 18: Aka, yes, sir, Hey, I was listening to your Mormon
Speaker 18: stream the other day, and I was born and raised Mormon.
Speaker 14: I actually grew up believing that Gane was Sasquatch.
Speaker 9: Oh really, Yeah, so this is kind of widely believed.
Speaker 9: There are just a few people believe it.
Speaker 14: I think it's mainly with the older generation. I was
Speaker 14: told this by my dad, who was a boomer. He
Speaker 14: converted when he was in his early twenties.
Speaker 9: Wow. Well, so what led you out of Mormonism?
Speaker 18: Well, a lot of the history and then it just
Speaker 18: it just led me to atheism because they believe in
Speaker 18: they believe in the name, it's a physical body that
Speaker 18: lives on a planet.
Speaker 9: I'm sorry the ad popped on. They believe in what
Speaker 9: can you repeat what you said?
Speaker 14: They believe in a god that has a body that
Speaker 14: lives out and on a planet.
Speaker 9: Yeah, right, Like it's like an alien god. And I
Speaker 9: just kind of completely Yeah, it's a it's a it's
Speaker 9: like it's like scientology, like it's a sci fi space opera.
Speaker 14: Yeah yeah yeah, And I mean and like Battles for Galactica. Yeah,
Speaker 14: that's something my dad always told me.
Speaker 4: He's like, yeah, that's right in my Mormons exactly.
Speaker 9: Yeah. We covered that the other day on that stream
Speaker 9: because Lords of Colob, that's a Mormon thing, right Colob.
Speaker 14: Yeah, Yeah, they'd have hymns to uh p were to
Speaker 14: hide to Colob.
Speaker 9: Well, you know anything else you want to leave us with.
Speaker 9: I appreciate that.
Speaker 18: It led me into atheism for a good fifteen years,
Speaker 18: and then I found the Orthodox Church and I was
Speaker 18: seeing into the church in January.
Speaker 9: Oh awesome, man, many years. Do you appreciate that? Good
Speaker 9: to hear it? Yeah? I think it was gonna if
Speaker 9: I was gonna choose, you know, maybe Star Wars before
Speaker 9: Disney got a hold of it. Maybe believe believe in
Speaker 9: that sci fi universe.
Speaker 7: I don't know.
Speaker 9: I'm trying to think of which sci fi universe I
Speaker 9: want to live there. Uh But Orson Scott Card is
Speaker 9: a Mormon sci fi writer, so that makes sense too,
Speaker 9: because he writes like in his Enders Game and all that,
Speaker 9: like the not the planets are different religions. So there's
Speaker 9: a Catholic planet, there's a Mormon planet, and a Protestant planet.
Speaker 9: If I remember correctly, Jennifer, the Lords sounds like a
Speaker 9: metal like a death metal man to Lords of Kolob.
Speaker 9: What's up, Jeffer, Yes, ma'am, I was.
Speaker 19: I want to ask about some of your articulations of
Speaker 19: the monarchical trinitarian you.
Speaker 2: So when you describe the difference between the Father, Sun.
Speaker 19: Holy Spirit, as the Father is like the source or
Speaker 19: you know, the fount or give heard a couple of
Speaker 19: different words, how would you articulate the difference between his
Speaker 19: being the source of self existence and obviously the Sun
Speaker 19: and Spirit also being uncreated.
Speaker 2: What is the difference between that?
Speaker 9: Because it's an eternal generation and any internal spiration, so
Speaker 9: it's not a cause in a temporal sense or the
Speaker 9: way that creatures are caused. The more of the Mormons
Speaker 9: that the Aryans raise this objection to Saint Athanasius when
Speaker 9: they when the Cappadocians, or when he talked about cause
Speaker 9: the Eunomians to the Cappadocians, and the Arians to Athanasius,
Speaker 9: they would say, well, cause implies temporal change and coming
Speaker 9: into being when you were not. And the answer is
Speaker 9: that cause is used in an analogical sense of an
Speaker 9: eternal causing. So it's an eternal causing and coming forth.
Speaker 9: It's not a beginning with a temporal sequence of something
Speaker 9: coming to be. That's why the Son is eternally begotten
Speaker 9: and eternally generated of the Father. In fact, this is
Speaker 9: not just my quote monarchical trinitarianism. It's what the original
Speaker 9: Nicene Creed says, following the theology of Athanasius, that the
Speaker 9: Father is the eternal source of the eternally begotten Son,
Speaker 9: and then the Kappadocians qualify that and make it more
Speaker 9: specific in their writings to specify that the father's the
Speaker 9: soul cause Soli, and then the son and the Spirit
Speaker 9: are differentiated by their respective hypostetic properties, the son to
Speaker 9: being generated, the spirit proceeding.
Speaker 19: So could I think of it sort of like how
Speaker 19: when Christ becomes incarnate in the flesh, he self limits himself.
Speaker 19: It's not that he lacks the power when he's human
Speaker 19: to do the things that are proper to God. It's
Speaker 19: just sort of the place that is appropriate for the son.
Speaker 19: So it's not that the spirit or the son necessarily
Speaker 19: lacks the power to be self existent.
Speaker 2: It's just the order that is the most.
Speaker 9: I don't know how to if you look at So
Speaker 9: this is a Muslim argument. It's called the Eunomian premise,
Speaker 9: and the argument is that in order to be divine,
Speaker 9: you must have the characteristic of being self existing, or
Speaker 9: to be assay, And that's actually a logical fallacy. There's
Speaker 9: nothing about being amongst the class of things that are
Speaker 9: quote divine or uncreated that necessitates being self existent, because
Speaker 9: for us, being self existent is part of what we
Speaker 9: mean when we pick out the person of the father.
Speaker 9: The father alone is the self existent one, or the
Speaker 9: unoriginate one, according to the Kappadocians. But the fact that
Speaker 9: he generates a son and generates a spirit who lack
Speaker 9: that hypostatic property does not mean that they can't share
Speaker 9: or don't have the same nature. So just like a
Speaker 9: father begets a son, the son derives that nature from
Speaker 9: the father that begot him right in a human sense,
Speaker 9: but he doesn't have any less of the human nature
Speaker 9: because he lacks being the source or the origin of
Speaker 9: his nature. So in the same way, you would have
Speaker 9: to demonstrate that divinity somehow necessarily requires being awse to
Speaker 9: prove what's called the Unomian premise. And if you watch
Speaker 9: the way that doctor bo Branson critiques Jake the muslim
Speaker 9: Ata physician in their debate, is precisely upon this point.
Speaker 9: Another way to look at this is so, for example,
Speaker 9: we talk about carnivore and omnivore right to be amongst
Speaker 9: the class of things that are meat eaters. Omnivores are
Speaker 9: meat eaters, but they also eat other things, right, such
Speaker 9: as vegetables. Of wars do not eat vegetables, they only
Speaker 9: eat meat, But they're both amongst the class of things,
Speaker 9: right that are quote meat eaters. It's just that omnivores
Speaker 9: have more properties or attributes right that pick them out,
Speaker 9: But they're still all amongst the class that's more general
Speaker 9: of things called meat eaters. So do you see that
Speaker 9: lacking one of the properties does not mean that you're
Speaker 9: not amongst the same class. So just because spirit and
Speaker 9: son lack the property of being self existing, does not
Speaker 9: mean that they lack the divine nature. Because in our theology,
Speaker 9: self existing one or to be assay is particularly a
Speaker 9: property of the person of the father. It's related to
Speaker 9: the hypostatic properties, and hypocytic properties are not shared, okay,
Speaker 9: because that picks out the father as the soul cause
Speaker 9: of the fount, the unorriginal one, the self existing one.
Speaker 19: So being uncreated would be obviously all three of them.
Speaker 19: And then just because I guess my brain is stuck
Speaker 19: in this like temporal like time for like time matters
Speaker 19: to me because I'm in time rather than being you know.
Speaker 2: The eternal generation. It's just kind of hard to wrap
Speaker 2: my head around.
Speaker 9: But well, it is a mystery, right, It's a mystery
Speaker 9: that the Father has eternally generated to somebody who read
Speaker 9: John one, I mean John speaks in that way, right.
Speaker 9: He says that even when Jesus was amongst us, he
Speaker 9: was eternal, he was always in the bosom of the Father.
Speaker 9: He never left the bosom of the Father, even when
Speaker 9: he was incarnate.
Speaker 2: M okay, yeah, that's that's very helpful.
Speaker 4: Thank you for that.
Speaker 2: Do you mind if I ask about Hebrew six?
Speaker 14: No?
Speaker 2: Uh, so, I I guess I would still call it.
Speaker 2: I'm not I wouldn't probably wouldn't call myself a Protestant still,
Speaker 2: I've been an inquirer for a little while.
Speaker 19: But speaking about sort of the idea of you know,
Speaker 19: being eternally secure in Hebrew six, would this imply if
Speaker 19: it's not implying internal security, which probably doesn't as I'm
Speaker 19: reading it, you know more?
Speaker 9: Well, remember these are these are Christians that have converted,
Speaker 9: that have been baptized their Hebrews. So when Paul talks
Speaker 9: about being enlightened and tasting the gift, he's talking about
Speaker 9: baptism and Eucharist, and he's talking about becoming a partaker
Speaker 9: of the Spirit, and he says, you've already tasted of
Speaker 9: the age to come. Okay, that's not a false believer.
Speaker 9: That's somebody who's really participated in the grace and in
Speaker 9: the Covenant. Yeah, and there's a real possibility of being
Speaker 9: cut out of that covenant exactly the way he warns
Speaker 9: the church at Rome and Romans eleven. You guys can
Speaker 9: be cut out if you're unbelieving, if you're unfaithful, and
Speaker 9: if you're arrogant puffed up.
Speaker 19: So would this imply that if you are at that
Speaker 19: point where you have been baptized in, you've received the Eucharist,
Speaker 19: and then you fall away, that there is that there's
Speaker 19: no coming back from that, that you are.
Speaker 2: Crucifying Christ a second time.
Speaker 7: If you.
Speaker 2: Attempt to come back.
Speaker 9: Well, I think that that there's always the possibility of
Speaker 9: people repenting, and God's grace can reach anyone. But no,
Speaker 9: if you persist until the end, right, and you die
Speaker 9: without that, that's the hardening of the heart, That is
Speaker 9: the rejection of the spirit, right, that's the blasphem of
Speaker 9: the Holy Spirit. So you know the fact that people
Speaker 9: might fall away from Christianity and then come back to
Speaker 9: it later in life or something like that. I don't
Speaker 9: think that it's I don't think Paul is saying that
Speaker 9: a person who doubts and disbelieves can never come.
Speaker 19: Back again, Okay, and then just one of those things,
Speaker 19: if that's okay. I watched the video that you've recommended
Speaker 19: a couple of times from Orthodox Shahada about the continuity
Speaker 19: between the Old Testament and the Divine Liturgy, which was
Speaker 19: very helpful and I'm very thankful for that. By the way,
Speaker 19: it was a great video. Is there any sort of
Speaker 19: historical lineage for the sort of chanting or the way
Speaker 19: that the text is read in the Divine Liturgy?
Speaker 9: Yeah, it's exactly. It's directly out of the synagogue, the
Speaker 9: way that the synagogue has chanters and canters.
Speaker 2: Awesome, Well, thank you so much. I really appreciate it.
Speaker 7: Thanks you.
Speaker 9: Those are really good questions. Appreciate that. Jacob Jordain five bucks.
Speaker 9: I love Sam. But oddly it seems that the claims
Speaker 9: a Vatican two and him seeing the anti trinitarian errors
Speaker 9: of Catholicism.
Speaker 2: Is not enough.
Speaker 9: Well, I mean, you know, we'll see. It takes time.
Speaker 9: People have to work through these issues. It took me
Speaker 9: a long time to work through a lot of these issues.
Speaker 9: So what's up, Jacob? Are you there got anute? Guys,
Speaker 9: you gotta turn your mic on if you're coming out.
Speaker 9: We're looking for Protestants, so please don't be all the
Speaker 9: same Orthodox people to call in every time I do it.
Speaker 9: Last room, Chrisky.
Speaker 4: Master, Hey, can you hear me?
Speaker 8: I sort of had like three main questions because I
Speaker 8: was watching, like I think there were more early sort
Speaker 8: of videos about tag and and sort of that whole thing.
Speaker 2: And I remember I was.
Speaker 8: On TikTok yesterday just kind of scrolling through and I
Speaker 8: ended up debating these Muslims.
Speaker 14: And one of the one of the things that was really.
Speaker 2: Confusing to me.
Speaker 8: I mean, I think you mentioned earlier is the idea
Speaker 8: that in order to have divine nature you have to
Speaker 8: also have been unngenerated basically, and the way that the
Speaker 8: father is Wait, who said that, uh for I think
Speaker 8: it was a Muslim or something like that.
Speaker 9: That's the Muslim argument. That's exactly what the woman before
Speaker 9: you was saying. Yeah, so you want an answer to that?
Speaker 8: Well, so sort of I guess because of the response
Speaker 8: that I had was a most eloquent way of answering
Speaker 8: that you did.
Speaker 13: But then another thing.
Speaker 8: That I was kind of thinking about was sort of
Speaker 8: the temporal thing.
Speaker 2: That's one thing I really did have to get my
Speaker 2: head around pretty harshly, was.
Speaker 7: The idea that even though.
Speaker 8: The Son and the Spirit are generated from the Father,
Speaker 8: that doesn't mean that they don't share divine nature. And
Speaker 8: it was something that kind of like I understood it subtly,
Speaker 8: but it wasn't something that I fully understood until I
Speaker 8: started kind of looking into like different qualifiers, so what
Speaker 8: divine nature even is?
Speaker 2: And then the second thing, the second.
Speaker 8: Thing that I have like a sort of question on
Speaker 8: was specifically about the I don't know I say it properly,
Speaker 8: but the seven Ecumenical Councils.
Speaker 12: Right is that?
Speaker 8: So I was I was wondering, uh, because this is
Speaker 8: one thing where like when I was becoming Christian, I
Speaker 8: was kind of weighing between Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism. What
Speaker 8: it's specifically with the Roman I guess, uh, I guess
Speaker 8: there's probably.
Speaker 2: Multiple points, but with the Ecumenical.
Speaker 8: Councils, I don't know which one it was, but it's.
Speaker 14: Basically the Uh.
Speaker 8: The Roman Catholicism like uh idolization and stuff like that,
Speaker 8: where you see that like a lot of and this
Speaker 8: is something that I noticed distinctly, is that a lot
Speaker 8: of like the idols and the art, like the illustrations
Speaker 8: they have, they seem almost.
Speaker 9: Like very h.
Speaker 5: Like very uh.
Speaker 8: I just in here would probably be the best way
Speaker 8: I could put it, though it's probably not a great way.
Speaker 9: Yeah, they're they're they're emotionalists, they're sensationalist, they are essentially
Speaker 9: it's essentially pagan art. So you're asking what specifically rebukes that, Well,
Speaker 9: if the principles of the Canons of the seven Ecumenical
Speaker 9: councils lay out the beginning of that, or excuse me,
Speaker 9: the Seventh Council. So the Seventh Ecamenical Council and its
Speaker 9: canons mentions icons multiple times in the canons, and it says,
Speaker 9: for example, you cannot make images of the Father. Later on,
Speaker 9: in eight forty three, there is the Byzantine Synod, which
Speaker 9: we call the Orthodox Church the Triumph of Orthodoxy Sunday.
Speaker 9: This is when the iconic class were defeated and the
Speaker 9: icons were restored. That council put together a document which
Speaker 9: is called the sonatacon Sonoticon goes into great d listing
Speaker 9: all of the heresies and all the things that are condemned,
Speaker 9: many different positions and errors. It reaffirms other statements about iconography.
Speaker 9: The book you want to read is Theology the Icon
Speaker 9: Volume one and two by Lasky and Ospensky. Particularly volume
Speaker 9: two goes into much more detail about the Palamite theological
Speaker 9: principles behind iconography. There's a whole chapter on that, and
Speaker 9: then later on you get into the principles that are
Speaker 9: laid out in the Moscow Icon Synods about why certain
Speaker 9: things are wrong in terms of iconography. Which icons are heterodox,
Speaker 9: for example, the ones that teach the Philly oquay. So
Speaker 9: all of that needs to be taken into account. And
Speaker 9: some people misunderstood when I made the icon video. They
Speaker 9: thought that I was saying that the seven of that
Speaker 9: con Medical Council explicitly says we reject Roman Catholic artwork.
Speaker 9: I said nothing like that. In the Orthodox Church, when
Speaker 9: the eight forty three Council states the triumph of Orthodoxy,
Speaker 9: that for us is part of the Seventh Council. That's
Speaker 9: the victory of the Seventh Council. We don't have this
Speaker 9: legalistic Roman Catholic view that the only thing that matters
Speaker 9: is the document that the Pope signs off on. For us,
Speaker 9: those are holistically part of the liturgical tradition. And so
Speaker 9: if the eight forty three Triumph of Orthodoxy pronouncements in
Speaker 9: the Sonoticon become part of the Orthodox universal universal liturgical tradition,
Speaker 9: for us, they're received, and they're part of our dogmas,
Speaker 9: They're part of our tradition. Yes, I know that the
Speaker 9: Sonaticon has variations in it, and I know that different bishops,
Speaker 9: even up into today, can add groups that are rejected,
Speaker 9: such as the Joe's Witnesses, other cults and sex can
Speaker 9: be mentioned in modern bishops versions of the Sonaticon. But
Speaker 9: the principle is still the same, and the principles of
Speaker 9: the iconographic tradition are still the same. And the best
Speaker 9: book on that is the volume two of Lavsky Knowspensky.
Speaker 9: And if you read that, you will see that all
Speaker 9: of the things that you've heard me argue over the
Speaker 9: last early years, they're all laid out there. So I'm
Speaker 9: not making up things or randomly just saying crap, And
Speaker 9: I have no idea where I'm getting in I'm just
Speaker 9: asserting stuff. I give you guys the books and the
Speaker 9: references all the time, but there's a lot of really
Speaker 9: low quality, low tier, low information voters, especially online, who
Speaker 9: don't know any of this stuff. Guys, if you what
Speaker 9: we have with over a one thousand people a minute
Speaker 9: ago and we got two hundred and seventy five likes,
Speaker 9: hit Like, let's put this up to the top. Let's
Speaker 9: get some good callers, let's get some good exchanges with
Speaker 9: Wi Fi Gospel five bucks. Hey, what's the orthodox understanding
Speaker 9: of tewod Peter three sixteen? How did Peter know that
Speaker 9: Paul's writing for scripture? Peter was a divinely inspired apostle,
Speaker 9: and so when he preached or teached, taught, excuse me,
Speaker 9: preached or taught the Word of God, he knew it
Speaker 9: was inspired word of God. Likewise, he would have also
Speaker 9: been able to recognize Paul's authoritative teaching, and he presumably
Speaker 9: then had access to and knowledge of what's called the
Speaker 9: autograph of the autogra are the ones that Paul himself wrote.
Speaker 9: Nobody has these. We don't have AUTOGRAPHA. All we have
Speaker 9: in the church are copies of the apostolic writings and
Speaker 9: the Gospels, and that's why the church tradition is absolutely
Speaker 9: necessary to understanding and knowing the candidate scripture. And that's
Speaker 9: a huge point against Protestantism. It's not just the argument
Speaker 9: as many low tier Protestants have misunderstood, because many bad
Speaker 9: Roman Catholic apologists say, you don't have infallible pope, so
Speaker 9: you can't know the Bible infallibly. That's kind of a
Speaker 9: bad argument, and we don't go that route because one
Speaker 9: is an epistemic question about individual certitude and to just
Speaker 9: say that the pope tells you that just moves a
Speaker 9: problem back and stuff, because it assumes that you can
Speaker 9: accurately interpret the pope's teachings. Secondly, that's a question of normativity.
Speaker 9: Normativity means the ability to buying people. Kind of like
Speaker 9: the Supreme Court interprets the Constitution. It's not everybody in
Speaker 9: America just interpreting it the way they want. There's an
Speaker 9: authority that has the ability to bind people to that
Speaker 9: interpretation and to bind consciences. And that's something that the
Speaker 9: Protestant Reformation is premised on. Rejecting. Protestant theology from the
Speaker 9: Reformation on says that they have the freedom of conscience,
Speaker 9: the rights of private interpretation. That's a rejection of the
Speaker 9: notion of normative authority. That's a different question from individual
Speaker 9: existential certitude about how do I know what the Canons
Speaker 9: scripture is? How do I know that Matthew wrote Matthew.
Speaker 9: Those are difficult questions and they cannot be divorced once
Speaker 9: you get into this from the history of the church
Speaker 9: and the history of the bishops and the Apostolic sees
Speaker 9: maintaining the tradition, for example, that Matthew wrote Matthew's Gospel.
Speaker 9: You see, why aren't you Catholic? I mean, I've got
Speaker 9: thirteen hundred videos on my channel telling you why I'm
Speaker 9: not Catholic.
Speaker 10: Dude.
Speaker 9: That's why we have these open discussions here almost every
Speaker 9: other day, and all you have to do is call
Speaker 9: in right here. So if you want to go to
Speaker 9: the head of the line, and please, guys, I'm looking
Speaker 9: for people who are Protestant or Catholic or Muslim. I
Speaker 9: want them to call in. So take your catechumen questions
Speaker 9: to your priest. I'm not your catechist, Okay. If you
Speaker 9: don't have a catechist, then I understand you're in a
Speaker 9: difficult situation. But every time I do this, all the
Speaker 9: Orthodox catechumens and inquirers come in here and they pile
Speaker 9: in and they take up all the time that could
Speaker 9: go to people who are Protestant or Muslim who need
Speaker 9: to hear these things. So don't take up other people's
Speaker 9: times just because you want your question about fasting or
Speaker 9: calendars or whatever. That's not what this is for. Okay,
Speaker 9: It's listed very clear Protestantism is false. So I want
Speaker 9: those people to come on. Please do not bring me
Speaker 9: your Orthodox catechuman questions. You do that at your church
Speaker 9: with your catechists hushed tones.
Speaker 14: Yo, can you hear me?
Speaker 2: Awesome?
Speaker 20: Sweet, I've been a long time listener, so I'm glad
Speaker 20: I finally have something to ask.
Speaker 4: But I promise it's not a catech human question.
Speaker 20: So, like, I have an older family member right who's
Speaker 20: a lifelong Baptist, and ever since I've been getting into Orthodox,
Speaker 20: he's been more curious about it.
Speaker 4: But it kind of seems like that like being a like,
Speaker 4: so his view, he's.
Speaker 20: Super into like Luther and Aquinas, but he also believes
Speaker 20: in the Book of Enoch when that like contradicts Sola
Speaker 20: script Torah. And then he's also super into like always
Speaker 20: telling me about how the elites are doing the Kabbalah rituals.
Speaker 20: The Trump getting shot was a ritual, and the JFK
Speaker 20: stuff was a Masonic ritual. So like he's as a Baptist,
Speaker 20: he's giving this like mystical power to these other like factions,
Speaker 20: you know.
Speaker 5: So and then as a Baptist it leaves, it leaves.
Speaker 21: His are sacraments are mysticism as an Eastern Orthodox world
Speaker 21: just as Christians in general as like merely symbolic and
Speaker 21: not like giving us any like counter like to you know,
Speaker 21: counteraction to this like mystical you know, evil or whatever.
Speaker 21: So like, how does like Protestantism like ultimately leave to
Speaker 21: like lead to the self defeating worldview where like we're
Speaker 21: just reduced to symbols.
Speaker 4: But then all these other.
Speaker 9: Like traditions and oh that's an interesting point. Yeah, So,
Speaker 9: like Protestantism sees the religion and particularly the way that
Speaker 9: you know, the Lord's Supper or baptism, right, like Protestantism
Speaker 9: sees that primarily as a kind of a symbolic function,
Speaker 9: which is ironic because they have a judaized idea of
Speaker 9: the sacraments, because their view of sacraments, for the most part,
Speaker 9: unless they're high charged Protestants, is more or less the
Speaker 9: way that we would say the Old Testament quote, sacraments functioned, right,
Speaker 9: So circumcision or the temple rituals or whatever the Old Testament,
Speaker 9: which are primarily typological pointing forward to the fulfillment of
Speaker 9: the New Testament, Protestants really see the New Testament sacraments
Speaker 9: as functionally no different than the Old Testament sacraments. And
Speaker 9: the way that Paul argues, for example, and colautions, is
Speaker 9: that circumcision was the type baptism. The ritual is the reality,
Speaker 9: you see. So the New Testament sacraments bring the reality
Speaker 9: and the power that the Old Testament sacraments foreshadowed, you see.
Speaker 9: So to go back to a Old Testament notion of
Speaker 9: what we think the sacraments in the Old Testament, this
Speaker 9: pure symbolism type of view, like a Baptist, is retrograde, right.
Speaker 9: It's removing the power. And it reminds me of what
Speaker 9: Paul talks about a religion the form of godliness but
Speaker 9: lacking the power thereof. But they will grant to sorcerers
Speaker 9: and Talmudic magicians like all this magical power to run giant,
Speaker 9: huge rituals and all this stuff. It's silly, But I
Speaker 9: would say if I can, if you said it was
Speaker 9: your uncle or your dad or whatever, but I would
Speaker 9: just say, you know, older people are not going to
Speaker 9: listen to you debating the position. You might as well
Speaker 9: just invite him to church or something like that. Unism okay,
Speaker 9: So if Forrest Drake won't come in here to debate,
Speaker 9: just to boot the guy like this is okay, he
Speaker 9: has no idea. Charles Francis, come in debate, you have
Speaker 9: no idea what we're even talking about. This is so
Speaker 9: these Protestants are so ignorant and arrogant, they have no
Speaker 9: idea what even these words mean. And they're just like
Speaker 9: super ready to debate. This is Protenism is a cancer, man,
Speaker 9: It just produces all these idiots. If Charles and the
Speaker 9: other dude uh don't won't come to debate in the chat,
Speaker 9: boot these people because they just monopolize the whole chat,
Speaker 9: and all they don't want to do is span their
Speaker 9: craft Unism on you man, all right, Okay, if you
Speaker 9: don't turn your microphone on, you can't you won't be
Speaker 9: able to speak in the spaces Dylan, what's up man?
Speaker 9: Shout out to everybody in the chat, welcome, hit like
Speaker 9: and share it. We got thirteen hundred viewers right now
Speaker 9: if you would call in, if you would like to
Speaker 9: discuss Protestanism, and you can also support the stream bias
Speaker 9: super chats through stream labs or natively through YouTube. What's
Speaker 9: up man?
Speaker 14: Hey Jay?
Speaker 9: Do you hear me? Yes?
Speaker 22: Okay, Hey, So I have a question I raised in
Speaker 22: the Protestant denomination. I would say I'm more like an
Speaker 22: Orthodox in choir now and trying to try to wrap
Speaker 22: my head around some.
Speaker 4: Stuff to help my wife understand.
Speaker 22: So in Protestantism and even in Catholicism, uh, there's a
Speaker 22: sense of like I think the word is ecumenism or acumenism,
Speaker 22: you know, kind of like a universal salvation.
Speaker 14: As I believe in the Trinity, you believe in the Court.
Speaker 4: Do trends.
Speaker 9: That's all you need.
Speaker 22: And I think even the Catholic Church has you can
Speaker 22: be an invisible part of communion with the Church. I
Speaker 22: haven't been able to find an answer to what is
Speaker 22: the Orthodox position? I know there they say, you know,
Speaker 22: with the One True Church, it's like Noah's this is
Speaker 22: where salvation can be found. What is the I guess
Speaker 22: you know, authoritative stance for right.
Speaker 9: So essentially there's no invisible church doctrine. The Church is
Speaker 9: just as much a visible, real historical reality as Christ's
Speaker 9: physical body was one united in history. So invisible church
Speaker 9: doctrine which is the basis for a humanism which is
Speaker 9: kind of at the root of Anglican branch theory, that's
Speaker 9: the origins of modern ecumenism. And you're right that it's
Speaker 9: ultimately kind of a denial of the incarnation, and it's
Speaker 9: a denial it's basically a Nestorian version of ecclesiology. So
Speaker 9: the same heresy of Nestorias to divide the person of
Speaker 9: Christ from the person to the logos, is applying that
Speaker 9: same division to the body, the body of the Church,
Speaker 9: and then to kind of make Christianity dissolve into countless sects. Right, No,
Speaker 9: there's one church in history. Every one of the ecumenical
Speaker 9: councils speaks as if the Church is a single, visible
Speaker 9: historical institution. And every time that this comes up, you'll
Speaker 9: see appeals to what the Creed calls the four marks
Speaker 9: of the Church. I believe in one Holy Catholic and
Speaker 9: Apostolic Church. Now Protestants, many of them will confess the
Speaker 9: Nicene Creed, and they'll say that they believe in one
Speaker 9: Holy Catholic and Epistolic Church. But of course they don't
Speaker 9: mean it in the sense of the Cappadocians and the
Speaker 9: people at the Second Ecumenical Council who compose that part
Speaker 9: of the creed. They mean it in the Protestant sense
Speaker 9: of one invisible church, et cetera, et cetera. It is
Speaker 9: not what the Cappadocians meant when they wrote that. So, yeah,
Speaker 9: the Church is a single body, a single treat, a
Speaker 9: single covenant, a single sheep fold, a single house, a
Speaker 9: single New Israel. I mean all of the and now
Speaker 9: ologies even to the New Testament, make it a single institution,
Speaker 9: not something divided amongst countless sects with countless competing confessions.
Speaker 9: And even within the Roman Catholic Church, this doesn't exist
Speaker 9: because the Roman Catholic Confession allows you to be a uniate,
Speaker 9: to believe basically most of Orthodox theology, and to do
Speaker 9: what you want, act like you want as if you're Orthodox.
Speaker 9: But it's an inconsistent position because many of them don't
Speaker 9: believe the Council Trent. They don't believe in purgatory, they
Speaker 9: don't believe back in one. And yet in Roman Catholicism
Speaker 9: you are bound and are supposed to believe all of
Speaker 9: the ecumenical councils that the Pope signs off on. So
Speaker 9: you see that that right there, the allowance within the
Speaker 9: Roman system from multiple creeds and confessions disproves the Roman
Speaker 9: system number one as actually possessing the unity of faith
Speaker 9: that they claim to have, and number two, it shows
Speaker 9: that they have contradictory systems within it that are just
Speaker 9: about political power. The only church confessing the same confessions
Speaker 9: of the ecadmenical councils is the Orthodox Church. That's why
Speaker 9: we always go to the ecaemical councils and their canons.
Speaker 9: There's nothing to do with whether the canons are infallible.
Speaker 9: It's a question of whether the canons of the councils
Speaker 9: express the mind of the church in that century, which
Speaker 9: everyone admits that they do. But that means that the
Speaker 9: Roman Catholic view is not true because it does not
Speaker 9: confess the principles of those councils. It professes the deviation
Speaker 9: that begins in the eighth ninth, tenth, and eleventh centuries,
Speaker 9: particularly the Gregorian reforms. Dictatus pape. This evolves into unum sanctum,
Speaker 9: where the pope now becomes a geopolitical world ruler that
Speaker 9: doesn't exist in the first seven centuries, not even the
Speaker 9: papal states.
Speaker 7: Is that.
Speaker 9: That's very new. And every modern historian, whether Orthodox or Catholic,
Speaker 9: admit it's this now. Papadacus, Sashensky, Mayandorf Kongar de Vornik,
Speaker 9: they all admit this. The Vatican now admits it eighty
Speaker 9: Alexandria documents. So the mindset of the Roman Catholic is
Speaker 9: living as if none of that has has been admitted.
Speaker 9: Oh no, I don't care about any of that. I'm
Speaker 9: going to pretend like the donation of Constantine wasn't a
Speaker 9: forgery and the pope is a geopolitical world ruler. Still okay,
Speaker 9: But Dictatus pape And when I'm sunk to say that
Speaker 9: to be saved, you also have to confess that the
Speaker 9: pope is a legitimate temporal state power. To be saved,
Speaker 9: it's not just believe in the Roman Catholic miship the
Speaker 9: Romans is going to be saved. It's also belief in
Speaker 9: the temporal supremacy the Roman vision to be saved. Jonathan,
Speaker 9: it was Colon here turn a fan off, got on
Speaker 9: mute Jonathan? Hey, yes, sir, Hey Jay?
Speaker 2: Sorry?
Speaker 5: So the oh first off, really big fan, really awesome
Speaker 5: to have someone on the Orthodox I had to get
Speaker 5: perspective on. I wanted to focus on sol scriptura and
Speaker 5: the concept behind that, and I wanted to first get
Speaker 5: the premise in this precondition.
Speaker 4: So my.
Speaker 5: My framework is more in line with how have you
Speaker 5: familiar with Michael Kruger?
Speaker 4: No, okay, uncle crue.
Speaker 5: I got out a book called canon of the Deed
Speaker 5: of the of the Bible based on.
Speaker 14: I forgot the guy's name before.
Speaker 5: But essentially he's he's making a model where he's talking
Speaker 5: about a framework to view canonicity of scripture under a
Speaker 5: self authenticating model, where can't where script itself like authenticates itself.
Speaker 4: For it's infallibility.
Speaker 5: I know the Orthodox position also has scripture and tradition I.
Speaker 4: Believe, so.
Speaker 5: I wanted to see if that if health thinking model
Speaker 5: would be inherently contradictory logically.
Speaker 9: I think it would be, because, for example, if the
Speaker 9: notion of apostolic authorship is part of what we need
Speaker 9: to know, for example, that Matthew wrote Matthew's Gospel. There's
Speaker 9: nothing self authenticating within the other text that tells you that,
Speaker 9: and that it should be included.
Speaker 5: Nothink, So okay, okay, And then how does how does
Speaker 5: the model like where you have the church authenticating the
Speaker 5: model for canonicity subvert that, because then wouldn't that be
Speaker 5: like a version of it, like a regression where people
Speaker 5: can just argue, or there could be development of canon.
Speaker 9: There was development of canon. That's why, for example, you
Speaker 9: see competing canons for centuries until an ecumenical council in.
Speaker 4: The Orthodox or Council of trend or even before that.
Speaker 9: No, before that, I'm talking about the Council of Trello's
Speaker 9: canons being affirmed at the Seventh Council. That's the Orthodox
Speaker 9: perspective on when an ecumenical council makes a decision about
Speaker 9: the normative canon for the for the church. That's universal.
Speaker 9: So prior to that, you have a bunch of different
Speaker 9: types of canons and competing lists. I'm scrolling down to
Speaker 9: my posts on this the other day. And so for example,
Speaker 9: you have it's not until the time of Athenacious that
Speaker 9: you get the agreed upon New Testament canon that we
Speaker 9: all as Protestants, Orthodox and Catholic agree on. But Athenasius,
Speaker 9: if you read Lee McDonald's book, Who's a textual scholar,
Speaker 9: a Baptist guy, he admits that Athenasius had to go
Speaker 9: to Rome to convince Rome to include some of the
Speaker 9: Catholic epistles and Revelation because Rome didn't even think that
Speaker 9: revelation was authentic. So you notice, right there there's an
Speaker 9: example of process and debate and Patristic tradition and argumentation
Speaker 9: that is nothing to do with this idea of self authentication.
Speaker 9: I mean, in other words, the idea that the canon
Speaker 9: authenticates itself is negated by the actual formation of the canon,
Speaker 9: the way that it actually happened, as admitted by the
Speaker 9: Protestant scholars like F. F. Bruce or like Lee McDonnell.
Speaker 9: So you have, for example, competing New Testament Old Testament
Speaker 9: canons until Affinaceous posits in his Festal Letter what we
Speaker 9: mostly think of as a New Testament canon, but the
Speaker 9: prevalent Old Testament canon according to the Apostolic canons, Canon
Speaker 9: eighty five. Are you familiar with that?
Speaker 17: Yeah?
Speaker 9: So Canon eighty five lists most of the deuterocanonical texts,
Speaker 9: but it also doesn't have revelation and it includes Clement right.
Speaker 5: Listed separately for the No, it does not or has
Speaker 5: some other classifier for it where it says it's useful
Speaker 5: but not not not inspired.
Speaker 9: Remember, you might be thinking of Laodicea, but Canon eighty
Speaker 9: five does not specify that. Let me pull it up.
Speaker 9: We can make sure. Okay, let me let me. Let's
Speaker 9: make sure. Let me pull it up for the sake
Speaker 9: of the audience. Now, it is true that so I
Speaker 9: can't see it, just adds up. That's fine. It is
Speaker 9: true that there are some church father that state that
Speaker 9: the Deutero canon is useful for catech humans, right, So
Speaker 9: Athanasius says that, but that doesn't that also doesn't mean
Speaker 9: that it's not inspired or that it's not useful for theology, right,
Speaker 9: because why would you catechize people with it if it
Speaker 9: wasn't use useful for theology. So the fact that it's
Speaker 9: even called duetero canonical or secondary canons, there's no problem
Speaker 9: for us in the Orthodox Church saying that here's the
Speaker 9: Canon eighty five that was normative in the Eastern Church.
Speaker 9: In this collection of Church law. This is from about
Speaker 9: three hundred to four hundred a d. And it lists
Speaker 9: it says five books of Moses, and then it says
Speaker 9: Judges Joshua, Judges Ruth historical books. And then it says
Speaker 9: Judith Maccabees. It says too, but so it includes judithan Maccabees,
Speaker 9: and then it does not include Judith Maccabees amongst the
Speaker 9: ones that it says are recommended for young people young people,
Speaker 9: it says wisdom of syric So you notice that it's
Speaker 9: not the Dutero canon that's secondary and for Catechisis it
Speaker 9: just says wisdom is of syric is for catechisas, but
Speaker 9: it includes Maccabees and the other duterocononical texts as part
Speaker 9: of canon.
Speaker 5: So that means there was when the ecumenical councils went
Speaker 5: through any type of a theological position, they would use
Speaker 5: tudor canonical books for a.
Speaker 4: Defense or to make an argument.
Speaker 9: I know that many church fathers cite Dutero canonical texts
Speaker 9: for theological argumentation.
Speaker 4: Do you know if any of the College of Patriots
Speaker 4: would use it. I'm just I'm trying to go for
Speaker 4: more reference.
Speaker 9: Off the top of my head. I'm not sure of
Speaker 9: a ecumenical council citing Dutero canonical text, but ultimately it's
Speaker 9: not going to matter because what I'm arguing is that
Speaker 9: the councils of Carthage that include the duterocanonical text, which
Speaker 9: is identical to the local Romance Roman synod Counts canon,
Speaker 9: which is what Damasist is called the canon of Damasist,
Speaker 9: which is why Augustine posites his canon. That's the Carthaginian
Speaker 9: Western Latin canon that includes the Dutero canon without any distinction.
Speaker 9: And what I'm saying is that the Trollo Quinessex Council
Speaker 9: happens later on in the East, which affirms the Carthage canon,
Speaker 9: and then the Seventh Ecumenical Council for the Orthodox affirms
Speaker 9: Trollo and Carthage on this issue. So does that make sense?
Speaker 9: That's our perspective.
Speaker 4: Awesome, Okay, I got everything I need. I got to
Speaker 4: do more reading on So thank you man you brought me.
Speaker 9: Those are great questions and I'm always happy to kind
Speaker 9: of go through that logic process there because a lot
Speaker 9: of people are not familiar with these topics. Now, keep
Speaker 9: in mind, too, there are other earlier canon lists like
Speaker 9: that one one of the earliest ones that James White
Speaker 9: brings up in the Trent debate, and he ended up
Speaker 9: getting humiliated over this because he got it wrong. And
Speaker 9: I think it's the of Vicentian canon. Let's see here,
Speaker 9: or I'm a human LDO of artists, let's see. Yeah,
Speaker 9: So let's watch this because Sam Schimun calls out James
Speaker 9: White after the trent Horn debate on this very topic,
Speaker 9: because in the Trent Horn White debate, White says, oh,
Speaker 9: there's a canon you know list, that's the Protestant canon
Speaker 9: list the Old Testament early on with Meledo. But wait
Speaker 9: a minute, Meledo includes what White doesn't believe, so it
Speaker 9: was just wrong. He's so excited to Stary Gema take.
Speaker 4: Okay.
Speaker 16: Of Chronicles too, the Songs of David, the Proverbs of Solomon, Wisdom,
Speaker 16: also Ecclesiastes Song of Songs.
Speaker 9: So you understand this is James White arguing against Trent
Speaker 9: Horn that the Protestant Old Testament cannon is there early on,
Speaker 9: and it's I think it's Meldo's canon. Let's make sure
Speaker 9: Yeah takes it okay too. Meldo's canon is not the
Speaker 9: James White Protestant canon. So he just was wrong, and
Speaker 9: James White doesn't care.
Speaker 16: The songs of David, the proverbs of Solomon wisdom also
Speaker 16: Ecclesiastes song of Songs.
Speaker 4: Job.
Speaker 16: You remember he said this is the accurate canon. He
Speaker 16: got the accurate canon. He learned the accurate cannon, which
Speaker 16: means the Jews accepted the wisdom of Solomon as inspired scripture.
Speaker 16: See how you just buried himself. Some wan should make
Speaker 16: a clip out of this. He kept saying, accurate, this
Speaker 16: is accurate.
Speaker 9: This is what they believe.
Speaker 16: You just buried yourself, dude, because they accepted wisdom of
Speaker 16: Solomon as part of their Old Testament as accurate canon,
Speaker 16: and they accepted a scripture. Please gets a little better.
Speaker 16: See that dis honesty of this man. Now watch here,
Speaker 16: guess what is not included? Guess what is not included?
Speaker 16: Pay attention of prophets Isaiah Jeremiah of the twelve Prophets,
Speaker 16: one book Daniel Ezekiel Estras. Now some will say Estras
Speaker 16: means Ezra Nehemiah, Thehemaiah. They're combined as one from which
Speaker 16: also I've made dix tracks dividing them into six books.
Speaker 16: Such are the words of Malito. Guess what he didn't find, folks,
Speaker 16: he didn't find Esther. Esther was not in their canon.
Speaker 14: So I say this, here's what I say.
Speaker 4: Watch your watch your.
Speaker 16: Note that Malito includes the Big of Wisdom as part
Speaker 16: of the Old testing canon and does not include Esther.
Speaker 16: This means that the accurate canonical list of books omit
Speaker 16: a book accepted by Jamila and include alrighty rejected by Jimmy.
Speaker 9: So there you go. James White owned himself in the
Speaker 9: trent Horn debate by claiming that Melido of Artists had
Speaker 9: the correct canon. He didn't even go and check to
Speaker 9: see that it wasn't the Protestant canon for the Old Testament.
Speaker 9: So hopefully again that's more AMO. But I also hope
Speaker 9: it demonstrates the point that we were making earlier that
Speaker 9: the canon isn't self authenticating because it doesn't even make sense.
Speaker 9: And that's completely divorced from even the Protestant scholars who've
Speaker 9: written books on the process of the canon. When you
Speaker 9: read this process and how much debate there was to
Speaker 9: then say, oh, but actually none of that was the case.
Speaker 9: It was all just self authenticating, right, It's just kind
Speaker 9: of like absurd christ supremacist. I hope these Protestants in
Speaker 9: the YouTube chat are going to call in with all
Speaker 9: this yappen? Are you there?
Speaker 10: Man?
Speaker 9: You gotta mute or what? Guys? If you want to
Speaker 9: come on, you got to have your microphone capabilities turned on.
Speaker 9: I don't like there's no one done a space before
Speaker 9: on us on or something unism. You want to try again.
Speaker 9: Remember we're not doing cticcumen questions today. This is for Protestants, Catholics, Muslims.
Speaker 9: I disagree.
Speaker 4: Hey Jay, how's it going good?
Speaker 9: What's on your mind?
Speaker 23: Thanks for having me on the show. First of all,
Speaker 23: I might be one of those ignorant Protestants you were
Speaker 23: talking about a minute ago, so I do apologize. I
Speaker 23: gotta say though I'm a big fan of the show.
Speaker 2: I really appreciate what you do.
Speaker 23: So I don't know that I'm qualified to speak with you,
Speaker 23: but I just want to come on the show and
Speaker 23: kind of talk about something like that you're talking to
Speaker 23: the last speaker about, Okay, specifically that I understand that
Speaker 23: the canon may not be self authenticating as such, or
Speaker 23: like you were just saying, like it's important the work
Speaker 23: that the early Church fathers and counsels had to go
Speaker 23: through to establish the canon was necessary. We can all
Speaker 23: agree on that. But it's maybe, and I hope I
Speaker 23: can express this or articulate this correctly. It's not as
Speaker 23: though because they decided that that's the canon, that that
Speaker 23: power is in them, they more or less did the
Speaker 23: leg work that allows us to look back and say, yes,
Speaker 23: they did make the correct decisions in establishing the canon.
Speaker 2: Right.
Speaker 9: But the thing is that for Protestantism, classical Protestantism, no
Speaker 9: post Apostolic writing or teaching is binding necessary and can
Speaker 9: bind your conscience. And so if you're a Protestant and
Speaker 9: you believe Classical Reformation doctrine a freedom of conscience and
Speaker 9: right to private interpretation, there's nothing stopping you from creating
Speaker 9: your own private canon that you prayed about and that
Speaker 9: the Holy Spirit led.
Speaker 4: You to have.
Speaker 9: So you see how That's why it's I agree with
Speaker 9: you that when the church fathers are quote, recognizing what's canonical,
Speaker 9: they're not making it inspired. They're recognizing what is inspired.
Speaker 9: But they're also given the authority to bind and to loose,
Speaker 9: and thus can bind you to the decision of what
Speaker 9: is canonical versus what is not. And that's a normative claim.
Speaker 9: That's normativity in terms of ethics versus the question of
Speaker 9: individual discovery of certitude or inspiration or whatever. That's a
Speaker 9: separate question from like the Supreme Court. Does the Supreme
Speaker 9: Court have the right to or to bind people to
Speaker 9: the interpretation of the Constitution. We're saying Jesus gave to
Speaker 9: his institutional body, the Church, the ability to bind people
Speaker 9: to these decisions.
Speaker 23: I think that's well said, and I think that's a
Speaker 23: perfect metaphor of a Supreme Court. In some sense, though,
Speaker 23: if we had a Supreme let's let's say we had
Speaker 23: a rogue Supreme Court under Biden. He put in, like,
Speaker 23: you know, six or seven crazy Supreme Court people, we
Speaker 23: would still know that the Constitution itself is what we
Speaker 23: hold to. And the errancy, let's say, of the Supreme
Speaker 23: Court tells us that they're not.
Speaker 9: Right.
Speaker 23: You know, in some sense, I'm saying, you know, let's
Speaker 23: speak purely about the Catholic Church, right popes that put
Speaker 23: into different councils or bulls or whatever that you know,
Speaker 23: the lady should not read the scripture, or they shouldn't
Speaker 23: read it without the clergy, or it shouldn't be translated
Speaker 23: into the common parlance or whatever. Partisans look at that
Speaker 23: and say, okay, well, clearly this is against what this
Speaker 23: is against what the scriptures are about. And so in
Speaker 23: some sense that I would say, not entirely undermines the
Speaker 23: idea of apostolic succession, but it at least says, what's
Speaker 23: more important than.
Speaker 9: The change, Right, I understand where you're going with this.
Speaker 9: It undermines the notion of papal authority, which is a
Speaker 9: different principle of unity and authority than the Protestant except
Speaker 9: that actually, with Protestantism it's the individual this private interpretation.
Speaker 9: With Catholicism, it's the papacy telling you. And the unique
Speaker 9: position of the Orthodox Church is that it's communal and sinodal.
Speaker 9: And we would argue that we are the actual historical church.
Speaker 9: When there's an issue that comes up in Acts fifteen,
Speaker 9: it's a synod. It's not one guy being an autocrat.
Speaker 9: It's a synod. And we'd argue that if you look
Speaker 9: at the promises that Jesus makes to the church, he says,
Speaker 9: I will send you the Spirit the Helper, I will
Speaker 9: never leave you, I will not forsake you. I will
Speaker 9: be with you until the end of the age, the
Speaker 9: spirit will guide you into all truth. That's a promise
Speaker 9: made to the actual college of the apostles, not just
Speaker 9: a Peter, but the whole college. And so their successor
Speaker 9: is not in any individual person, but in their collective body.
Speaker 9: In college cannot fall away. So the Orthodox conception of
Speaker 9: the Church not being able to fall away is a
Speaker 9: collective idea, not individual bishops being exempted from this warning.
Speaker 9: And so no, we would not say that the Bishop
Speaker 9: of Rome has sole title to this promise of not
Speaker 9: falling away. Right, Jesus promises to the whole college, to
Speaker 9: the whole body. But yes, absolutely a bishop, a group
Speaker 9: of bishops can fall away, but never the entire collective
Speaker 9: institution of the bishops themselves.
Speaker 23: No, well said, Well said, well, what do you say
Speaker 23: about Galatians one to one where? And I know this
Speaker 23: is obviously apostolic times. So when Paul says Paul, I
Speaker 23: Paul an apostle, not from men nor through man, but
Speaker 23: through Jesus Christ and God the Father, in some sense,
Speaker 23: I do look at Paul. You maybe heard this before,
Speaker 23: but like Paul is someone who wasn't walking with Jesus
Speaker 23: during Jesus's ministry. He's almost the prototype of every believer
Speaker 23: that comes after Jesus's time, Right, he wasn't obviously he
Speaker 23: saw Jesus, but he wasn't walking with him.
Speaker 2: He's like the prototype believer.
Speaker 9: For well, I mean we can say that, we can
Speaker 9: say that any person in the Bible is in some way,
Speaker 9: perhaps any faithful person in the Bible is in some
Speaker 9: way a prototype of a believer. I mean, even Rahab
Speaker 9: the harlot is a prototype of a gentile believer, according
Speaker 9: to you know, the Church fathers. But that doesn't it
Speaker 9: doesn't follow from that that every office that they possess
Speaker 9: thus then transfers over to every future believer. Right, So
Speaker 9: I'm not a member of the episcopate, so not everything
Speaker 9: that occurs in the church that is for a member
Speaker 9: of the episcopate applies to me. And no, we would
Speaker 9: say that there's twelve apostles, and if you look at
Speaker 9: the church, for example, the Book of Revelation, it's a
Speaker 9: giant city with twelve foundation stones, with twelve apostles names
Speaker 9: on those foundation stones. So you must be specifically a
Speaker 9: member of that twelve to be what Jesus calls the
Speaker 9: princes of the Church calls you he says, you will
Speaker 9: judge the twelve tribes of Israel when you get when
Speaker 9: he is in the upper room talking to them, And
Speaker 9: we would say that that means that they're they're the
Speaker 9: foundation stone. So that's a unique role. And Paul was
Speaker 9: called to that apostleship, but not everybody in the church.
Speaker 9: It has the role of being Paul.
Speaker 2: No, No, clearly, not clearly not. What about this? Maybe
Speaker 2: I can pose this not so much as maybe I
Speaker 2: can kind of post this as a question.
Speaker 23: In Mark seven to eight crists you leave the commandment
Speaker 23: of God and hold to the tradition of men. Now,
Speaker 23: I don't throw that out to say that that's what
Speaker 23: we're talking about, but I more so to say in
Speaker 23: is there any sense in which you look at the
Speaker 23: Eastern Orthodox Church today and say there are places, not
Speaker 23: in terms of solar scripture or whatever, but just maybe
Speaker 23: more broadly in which they're holding more to the tradition
Speaker 23: of men rather than the commandment of God.
Speaker 4: Is there any Oh?
Speaker 9: Yeah, no, So I think Phariseeism and legalism could be
Speaker 9: present anywhere. You know, Jesus in fact warns the disciples themselves, right,
Speaker 9: the very foundation stones of the church are warned about
Speaker 9: the possibility of the leaven of the Pharisees, which is
Speaker 9: self righteousness, and uh, you know, majoring on the miners,
Speaker 9: obsessing over minutia versus the bigger issues, the weightier matters
Speaker 9: of the law. That could happen to anybody anywhere. You
Speaker 9: could be in a monastics situation and you could have
Speaker 9: you know, pharisaic legalism in the monastic realm. You could
Speaker 9: have people getting pharasaical about the you know, fasting in
Speaker 9: the church that happens all the time. People get pharisaical
Speaker 9: about you know, calendar dates and issues in the Orthodox Church.
Speaker 9: That happens all the time. So absolutely, yeah, But even
Speaker 9: that happening in you know, various localized places or settings,
Speaker 9: even that that doesn't destroy the collective promise to the church. Nick, Nick, mh,
Speaker 9: what's up? Yeah, I'm you. I would add two that
Speaker 9: that same section you're talking about Mark, but in Matthew,
Speaker 9: it's Matthew twenty three when he's rebuking the Pharisees. Even
Speaker 9: there he appeals to tradition. Go ahead, and now what's up.
Speaker 4: You there?
Speaker 9: Nick? Yeah, what's up?
Speaker 7: My bad?
Speaker 9: I was having some trouble.
Speaker 2: Sorry, if the background is.
Speaker 4: Too loud to just kick me or whatnot.
Speaker 24: So I'm I'm a Protestant right now, but I'm looking
Speaker 24: into the Orthodox rash and I kind of got some questions.
Speaker 24: I ran across some crazy interpretations in the past, and
Speaker 24: this would.
Speaker 4: There's a guy named Johnny Chang. I don't know if
Speaker 4: you ever heard of him.
Speaker 24: He's just he has a whole bunch of followers and
Speaker 24: has a really good testimony.
Speaker 19: But he.
Speaker 9: Made a question about the Lord's prayer.
Speaker 4: I kind of wanted to see what you would say
Speaker 4: about it.
Speaker 24: He said that we don't have to pray the Lord's
Speaker 24: prayer because it was a past tense prayer, Like how
Speaker 24: it says.
Speaker 9: Like that Kingdom come, that will be done, that like
Speaker 9: the will of the.
Speaker 4: Father already came in the kingdom. So I kind of
Speaker 4: want to see what your input is on that.
Speaker 9: Uh No, I mean, Jesus says pray in this wise,
Speaker 9: So if it was a past tense thing, he wouldn't
Speaker 9: have said told him to pray in this way. Every
Speaker 9: church in history has prayed the Our Father and the
Speaker 9: Kingdom of God is not just a present reality, it's
Speaker 9: also an eschatological reality. This is called already not yet
Speaker 9: in the theological language. So Jesus brought the eschatological reality
Speaker 9: of the kingdom now, which is in the Divine Liturgy.
Speaker 9: That's a foretaste of it. But the final full sense
Speaker 9: of the eschological reality is at the Second Coming. So
Speaker 9: it's a both and Jonathan Bursea, but good questions and
Speaker 9: tell Johnny Chang or whatever his name is, tell them
Speaker 9: to come in here, give them the link and tell
Speaker 9: them to come come chat. I just boot these people
Speaker 9: who are like spamming. If they don't, if they won't
Speaker 9: come to bay, just get them out of here. They're
Speaker 9: just wasting everybody's time. Nobody's going to convert from your
Speaker 9: Protestants spamming the chat. And I've been hearing your arguments
Speaker 9: for twenty years.
Speaker 14: I know, I know.
Speaker 9: Go ahead, man, what's up?
Speaker 25: Hey, I'm a first time calling in and I got
Speaker 25: a weird question for you.
Speaker 9: Okay.
Speaker 25: I used to be Protestant. Nine years ago I left
Speaker 25: the church because of what I'm going to describe you.
Speaker 25: I went to one of the leaders of my church,
Speaker 25: pastor and a deacon, because I had questions about why
Speaker 25: there were women pastors in the church, and they basically
Speaker 25: said I was too legalistic and I needed to go
Speaker 25: reread acts about Peter's dream, and they kind of ignored
Speaker 25: me after that.
Speaker 9: What would Peter? So the analogy is that Peter's dream
Speaker 9: was a change of dietary law. So now we have
Speaker 9: the dream of women pastors. So that's I mean, that's
Speaker 9: is that what they arguing?
Speaker 25: Yeah, that's kind of the sense that I got. Like,
Speaker 25: my my viewpoint was like, he's the dreams or vision
Speaker 25: is only about like food. It's not about like women
Speaker 25: pastors or homosexuality of the church or anything. So what
Speaker 25: what would you say if somebody like clapped back at
Speaker 25: you with that.
Speaker 9: Well, like we'd explained in the Mormon's dream the other night,
Speaker 9: there's a finality to divine revelation first and foremost, So
Speaker 9: when the last apostle died, there are no no new
Speaker 9: divine revelations in the sense of public theological binding ideas
Speaker 9: any for us, any say, Ecumenical Council of the Orthodox Church.
Speaker 9: It's not a new divine revelation. It's really just specifying
Speaker 9: and explicating what the Church has already taught in its
Speaker 9: apostolic deposits. So, for example, Zecharai thirteen Daniel nine twenty
Speaker 9: four Jude three Glatians one. You look at those passages
Speaker 9: and you see that there is a finality to what
Speaker 9: we call revelation, and that right there cuts off any
Speaker 9: cult claiming new revelations. Now you're talking about liberal Protestant
Speaker 9: churches who say that there could be a new truth
Speaker 9: about you know, skittle stuff or women preachers or whatever. No,
Speaker 9: first of all, that's outlandish to begin with, because we
Speaker 9: can cut off all the cults with whether it's the
Speaker 9: Mormons or whether it's the Muslims with their new prophets.
Speaker 9: There are no new profits. Profits are done prophets. Jesus
Speaker 9: says in Luke sixteen sixteen that John was the life
Speaker 9: asked of the prophets, so there's no such thing as
Speaker 9: an Old Testament prophet. And when John the Apostle died,
Speaker 9: there's no more new Apostolic teachings or revelations. That's why
Speaker 9: cults like Mormons or Muslims require new divine revelation that
Speaker 9: compliments or quote corrects the old revelations.
Speaker 25: Awesome, I guess I have one more follow up question
Speaker 25: because of that, and and sorry.
Speaker 4: If it's really stupid.
Speaker 14: I'm a.
Speaker 9: Good questions.
Speaker 11: So in that guard, then, isn't.
Speaker 25: One of the fruits of the spirit prophecy?
Speaker 9: Or maybe I just have been right, but that's right.
Speaker 9: So that's during the period this is called the Intertestamental
Speaker 9: period between the Old Testament New Testament, right when the
Speaker 9: Church is being established at Pentecost. In the Book of
Speaker 9: Acts Paul's writing to the Corinthians. Yes, at that time
Speaker 9: it was necessary that there be a lot of these
Speaker 9: manifestations like that, and so you could have the Holy
Speaker 9: Spirit speaking through Agabus the prophet in the Book of Acts,
Speaker 9: for example, or whatever. But that is still that period
Speaker 9: prior to the death of the last Apostle John, And
Speaker 9: I don't think it's accidental. It's providential that at the
Speaker 9: end of John's Book of Revelation he says, don't add
Speaker 9: to this, there's no more adding to the divine revelation.
Speaker 9: So that kind of is the ceiling up a vision
Speaker 9: and prophecy that we read in Daniel nine twenty four
Speaker 9: to twenty seven. It says in the Messianic era, when
Speaker 9: the Messiah comms, there will be a ceiling up of
Speaker 9: vision and prophecy in the sense a public divine revelation.
Speaker 9: And what binds everybody. That doesn't mean that there's no
Speaker 9: more miracles. There could be a miracle. God can do
Speaker 9: what he wants. God can give a saint a dream
Speaker 9: or a vision of a clairvoyance or whatever. But that's
Speaker 9: different from public divine revelation that binds everyone in the church.
Speaker 9: And we know that because in the second and third
Speaker 9: century there was a group that arose called the Montanists,
Speaker 9: and Montanus claimed to be a new prophet who was
Speaker 9: given new divine revelations in the church. Out out of
Speaker 9: hand rejected Montanism.
Speaker 14: Man, I'm gonna be honest.
Speaker 25: You used a lot of things that I honestly have
Speaker 25: not heard of or words that I haven't heard over before.
Speaker 4: But listening to you and other Orthodox.
Speaker 25: Public figures has has encouraged me to go get.
Speaker 9: Yeah, well just yeah, I really appreciate it. Yeah, get
Speaker 9: an orthodox study by it will take your time, you know,
Speaker 9: write some of the ideas down if you want to
Speaker 9: go double check it or whatever.
Speaker 10: You know.
Speaker 9: The the idea of Montanism is is, you know, just
Speaker 9: look up what the histor just just even Wikipedia would
Speaker 9: be good on something like Montanas M. O. N. T. A.
Speaker 9: And US and the Montanists and that early charismatic movement
Speaker 9: of the second third century, which by the way, claimed
Speaker 9: Tertullian as one of its member. Totullian left the church
Speaker 9: and became a Montanist. And so this early version of charismaticism,
Speaker 9: by the way, it also shows that all the crazy
Speaker 9: heresies that we see today, they were already there in
Speaker 9: the early Church in the fourth, fifth, sixth, seventh century.
Speaker 9: Even in the first and second century. You got the
Speaker 9: Judaizers like Bryce and Gray, you got the charismatic like
Speaker 9: Joseph Smith, Ellen White Pentecostals. All of these mistakes were
Speaker 9: already there and already rejected. Truth talker, by the way,
Speaker 9: give me just one second. It's freezing Colin here, gonna
Speaker 9: turn the air conditioning down. All right, truth talker, what's up?
Speaker 9: Man gonna? I'm you hey, but sorry, I didn't hear
Speaker 9: you speaking. There must have been a delay. What's on
Speaker 9: your question?
Speaker 2: You know, I just had a question.
Speaker 12: I'm just joining the space last few minutes and having
Speaker 12: heard the first part of it. So I grew up
Speaker 12: Southern Baptist, me too, and uh so I'm curiously that's
Speaker 12: been called so you know, I believe I know I've
Speaker 12: been reading up on you know some of the some
Speaker 12: of the early even Catholic church fathers, and you know,
Speaker 12: not so much Orthodox, but I'm reading up.
Speaker 9: On that, and well, well we have the same church
Speaker 9: fathers for the first thousand years, so right, right.
Speaker 12: Right, So so to my knowledge, we believe the same obviously,
Speaker 12: you know, the Trinity, the Triyan God.
Speaker 11: Right.
Speaker 12: So when when the titles Protestism is false, I just
Speaker 12: real quickly.
Speaker 4: I mean, not to go too long, but what do
Speaker 4: you mean by that?
Speaker 12: And then I had a couple of follow.
Speaker 9: Up questions, Well, uh, it's true that in terms of
Speaker 9: what we verbally say, when we say we believe in
Speaker 9: the deed of Christ and the Trinity, that's true that, yes,
Speaker 9: we agree Protestant, Catholic, Orthodox, everybody agrees that there is
Speaker 9: a Trinity and that Jesus is divine. But actually the
Speaker 9: Orthodox doctrine of the Trinity is not the same as
Speaker 9: the Doctor and Trinity in either Protestantism or Roman Catholicism.
Speaker 9: So we have a unique doctrine of the Trinity which
Speaker 9: posits a strict view of monarchical trinitarianism and the rejection
Speaker 9: of the philioque, as well as the doctrine of the
Speaker 9: uncreated energies. Those are essential, absolutely necessary teachings of the
Speaker 9: Orthodox Church about who the Trinity and who Jesus are.
Speaker 9: And also Protestantism classically speaking or in terms of historical
Speaker 9: Protestanism is defined by its confessions, and so this is
Speaker 9: called classical Protestanism. Even the Southern Baptists have the Southern
Speaker 9: Baptist Statement of Faith everything something like that. So even
Speaker 9: they have like a general layout of the principles that
Speaker 9: they believe, you know, confessional Protestantism, whether it's Lutheran, Methodist, Presbyterian, Anglican,
Speaker 9: they all have their public professions of faith. And we
Speaker 9: would disagree with the solas solofide, you know, sol scriptura.
Speaker 9: We would also disagree with the notion of the rights
Speaker 9: to private interpretation. We would disagree with a totally unbounded
Speaker 9: notion of freedom of contents of worship that the classical
Speaker 9: reformers taught. So there's a lot of different ways that
Speaker 9: that discussion could go, but those are the basics.
Speaker 12: So I would agree that there's probably some differences, I think,
Speaker 12: though I think that the main I think the main
Speaker 12: point I want to maybe go with you on just
Speaker 12: for a couple of minutes is the you know, uh,
Speaker 12: the solo interpretation, I think, at least in my church.
Speaker 12: So I'll speak on my personal experience. My pastor used
Speaker 12: to say, even at a very young age, for myself,
Speaker 12: there's no such thing as your personal interpretation. There's only
Speaker 12: the truth, and then there's false interpretations of the doctrine.
Speaker 14: Right.
Speaker 12: So do you think that what you said about how
Speaker 12: the Protestant churches kind of have their own Oh, this
Speaker 12: is what I got, this is what I feel about.
Speaker 4: Is that unique to a.
Speaker 12: Small number of churches or do you think that that's
Speaker 12: just kind of a whole of Protestant faith of Well,
Speaker 12: I don't need I don't need the clergy to tell me.
Speaker 4: Well, I don't need scholars and.
Speaker 12: Tell me what this means.
Speaker 14: This is how I feel about it.
Speaker 12: Is that is that kind of what you think is?
Speaker 9: Well, I mean it could apply to that, but I
Speaker 9: mean beyond just that question of I understand that many
Speaker 9: Protestants and Evangelicals would would recognize some degree of authority
Speaker 9: for elders and you know, pastors and presbyters. But I'm
Speaker 9: saying it's a fundamentally different principle of church governance. It's
Speaker 9: an episcopate, it's Apostolic succession. It's the necessity of Apostolic
Speaker 9: tradition to know what the Biblical canon is, for example,
Speaker 9: hence why we have more books than the Protestant canon.
Speaker 9: So all of those elements go into it, as well
Speaker 9: as the separate issue of the successors to the apostles
Speaker 9: not just having the right to state their opinions, but
Speaker 9: actually to bind people to an interpretation. So for example,
Speaker 9: at the Council of Nicia, they don't just kind of
Speaker 9: give an option for Arias and say, look, Arius, it'd
Speaker 9: be nice if you agreed with us, but if not,
Speaker 9: you can go start. You know, the Aryan stripmall church,
Speaker 9: you know, if you want no. They believe that they
Speaker 9: have the authority, like Paul told the church at Corinth
Speaker 9: to excommunicate people and hand them over to Satan. And
Speaker 9: that's why the church says we excommunicate areas he is
Speaker 9: of the double you know, he's out. And ultimately ex
Speaker 9: communication is intended to have a remedial effect. It's not
Speaker 9: just to quote damn people, but it is a real
Speaker 9: power and authority that you do not really see in
Speaker 9: the Protestant mindset. Precisely because there's a tension in Protestant
Speaker 9: theology between the right of private interpretation and the freedom
Speaker 9: of conscience, and the so called authority of a minister
Speaker 9: to bind people to an interpretation and to excommunicate them.
Speaker 4: Yeah, and this will be my last talking point. I
Speaker 4: know you got a lot of people that probably want.
Speaker 10: To come up.
Speaker 12: I think that maybe then, just hearing, because this isn't
Speaker 12: the first time I've had this conversation with someone in orthodoxy.
Speaker 12: I think the more I hear it, where I realized
Speaker 12: that maybe my circumstance may have been unique in the
Speaker 12: way that our pastor guided our church.
Speaker 4: Doesn't seem like you got it in in.
Speaker 14: A typical Protestant type way.
Speaker 12: But uh, you know that being said, I think that
Speaker 12: you know, maybe maybe maybe.
Speaker 9: You can give your opinion that Apostolic succession, and we
Speaker 9: believe is when Paul talks to Timothy that he taught
Speaker 9: for three years, day and night in Ephesus x twenty,
Speaker 9: and then he lays hands on Timothy. He tells Timothy
Speaker 9: not to hastily lay hands on anyone because the gift
Speaker 9: to the Holy Spirit has passed on That for us
Speaker 9: is apostolic succession, which is a real power. They shouldn't
Speaker 9: be given hastily, and it's modeled on numbers eleven. When
Speaker 9: you know you have the elders being laid their hands
Speaker 9: by Moses, and then it says the Holy Spirit's given
Speaker 9: by Moses to the elders. This is mirrored by what
Speaker 9: Paul's doing. And most Protestants do not believe that in
Speaker 9: the laying out of hands there's an actual transference of
Speaker 9: power by the Holy Spirit. Hence they don't scary well,
Speaker 9: they don't believe in They don't believe that it's a
Speaker 9: a sacramental power. They just kind of see it as
Speaker 9: a committee appointing you to be a pastor or whatever.
Speaker 14: Yeah.
Speaker 12: No, I can see where that can be a problem
Speaker 12: because that's anti biblical for them to say that it
Speaker 12: is insignificant.
Speaker 9: Anyway, I agree with you on that.
Speaker 12: So all right, Well, I look, I said, man, I
Speaker 12: don't want to.
Speaker 19: Take up too much time.
Speaker 4: I appreciate I camming in your spaces.
Speaker 9: Luther. Hey, how's it going, Yes, sir.
Speaker 10: Uh, I was listening to one of your streams a
Speaker 10: few days ago and I heard someone comment that concessional
Speaker 10: Lutherans are your greatest fear.
Speaker 9: Oh yeah, terrified.
Speaker 14: Thought that was funny. But I haven't heard a lot
Speaker 14: of confessional Lutherans.
Speaker 9: Call in, Well, there's not that many that are out
Speaker 9: there debating, so that's probably a better explanation. Yeah, I
Speaker 9: would agree.
Speaker 10: So I had a few questions. First, one would be
Speaker 10: when it comes to the philioque.
Speaker 7: I think I was.
Speaker 9: Listening to your.
Speaker 10: Conversation slash debate with Redeemed Zoomer, you know.
Speaker 4: I'll touched on that a little bit, and he got
Speaker 4: into the idea.
Speaker 10: That if if we say that the spirit proceeds from
Speaker 10: both the Father and the Son, that that in some
Speaker 10: way onto logically subordinates the spirit.
Speaker 9: Right, because you're giving you're giving an attribute. You're giving
Speaker 9: a positive power attribute to two persons that one of
Speaker 9: them lacks. And the Cappadocian dictum of all trinitarian theology
Speaker 9: of the Second Ecumenical Council is that there's nothing that
Speaker 9: all three persons share that's not a property of essence,
Speaker 9: and anything that is unique is a property of a
Speaker 9: single person in the triad. So, for example, to be
Speaker 9: the son, that's the unique property of the son. Sonship
Speaker 9: is not shared, and it's not a property of the
Speaker 9: divine essence. It's unique to the second hypostasis of the
Speaker 9: son to be the cause is unique to the Father.
Speaker 9: That's his hypostatic property. So cause in the Trinity cannot
Speaker 9: be shared without creating a diad where you have two
Speaker 9: persons that form a principle of unity that the Holy
Speaker 9: Spirit does not have or is not part of, because
Speaker 9: no one believes that the Holy Spirit spirates or generates
Speaker 9: any persons, you see, So he lacks this positive power
Speaker 9: or attribute. So there's no such thing in trianitarient theology
Speaker 9: as attributes that two persons share that one lacks. So
Speaker 9: cause must be restricted to a hypostatic property and thus
Speaker 9: only had by one person, the Father.
Speaker 14: All right, that makes sense to me.
Speaker 9: That's the that's the orthodoxology. You're already orthodoxylia.
Speaker 25: Necessary.
Speaker 14: You mentioned a council that discussed.
Speaker 9: Well, the second Ecumenical Council is the normative definition for
Speaker 9: Trinitarian conciliar theology. The Trinity doesn't become a focus of
Speaker 9: councils uh until the Palamite Synods, and that's in the
Speaker 9: Middle Ages. So basically the first econmenical council is the
Speaker 9: d do christ Athanacious areas et cetera. Second Ecumenical Council
Speaker 9: is the Trinity, and it's Cappadocian theology that dominates that.
Speaker 9: That's basal of cesarea. Uh, that's Gregory Nazianzus and Gregor
Speaker 9: of Nissa. Those three church fathers are the theologians par
Speaker 9: excellence and particularly Gregor Nissa of the Second Ecumenical Council.
Speaker 9: So Trinity doesn't get debated much because the next several
Speaker 9: councils focus on Christology, and then Trinity comes up again
Speaker 9: in the Energies in Phillyoquoid controversy of the Byzantine Church
Speaker 9: versus the Council of Lions, in Rome, in the West,
Speaker 9: and in the Council of Florence. So trinity doesn't be
Speaker 9: an issue anymore until then doesn't become an issue. And
Speaker 9: the Cappadocian dictum is whatever is a common property is
Speaker 9: shared by all three, and whatever is a hyposthetic property
Speaker 9: is only had by one.
Speaker 10: All right, I haven't studied much of that, to be
Speaker 10: honest with you, I'd be curious. So why you think
Speaker 10: the Western Church just kind of ignored that concept.
Speaker 9: I don't think they ignored it. I think that Latin theology. Uh, well,
Speaker 9: in the case of the Second Acadomical Council, Rome didn't
Speaker 9: accept that council. In fact, the council has had out
Speaker 9: of communion with Rome. It was presided over by St. Melidius,
Speaker 9: and at that time was in schism with Room. It's
Speaker 9: called the Malician schism, and Rome didn't accept that until
Speaker 9: about two or hundred years after Calcedon. So Constantinople One
Speaker 9: was not accepted in the West until centuries after Poblio.
Speaker 10: But was Rome in or I guess it would be
Speaker 10: the Western Church. Were they in communion with the Eastern Church.
Speaker 9: For a time even Yeah, broadly speaking, yes, broadly speaking yes,
Speaker 9: but I mean the.
Speaker 11: Yes.
Speaker 9: So after Augustine you have the dominance of his Neoplatonic
Speaker 9: influenced model of the triad based around Neoplatonic doctrines of simplicity.
Speaker 9: So Augustine starts with Plutonian definitions as to what simplicity
Speaker 9: is and must be, and then Trinity has worked into that.
Speaker 9: So we do not in the East accept his model
Speaker 9: of the Trinity because it was not accepted at constantinble One.
Speaker 10: All right, so it's Augustine's fault.
Speaker 9: Then, well, it's not one person's fault. It's a series
Speaker 9: of issues of theological assumptions about metaphysics that take many
Speaker 9: centuries to kind of come true fruition. So that's why
Speaker 9: we don't reject the West until they dogmatically state their
Speaker 9: position in the eleventh, twelfth, and thirteenth centuries. That's when
Speaker 9: you find a real split between you and West.
Speaker 4: Okay, if you don't mind, have another question.
Speaker 10: Okay, I think this was another thing that came up
Speaker 10: in that conversation with redeem Zuomer. But uh, and it's
Speaker 10: come up a lot. But the idea that the Protestant
Speaker 10: view of imputation or I mean it relates to justification,
Speaker 10: also that it is somehow nominalist.
Speaker 2: Help me understand that.
Speaker 9: Read Haiko Oberman's book about Luther being influenced by William
Speaker 9: of Aackaman Gabriel Bile, and that will explain how that
Speaker 9: was the first time in history that you could have
Speaker 9: a person positing the idea that God can pronounce something
Speaker 9: and it be a legal status, completely divorced from the
Speaker 9: ontological status. So God can call me righteous even though
Speaker 9: I'm wicked. Nominalism is the philosophy that facilitates that.
Speaker 25: What would you say to.
Speaker 10: Response is that basically, it's not it's not that it
Speaker 10: doesn't have an ontological basis.
Speaker 9: Because it's but that is the Protestant view. The Protestant
Speaker 9: view is in terms of souls, tour and justification by
Speaker 9: faith alone, is that when God pronounces you righteous, it
Speaker 9: has nothing to do with anything in you or that
Speaker 9: you do. It is solely on the basis of the
Speaker 9: imputation in Christ's work. Well, I don't know.
Speaker 10: I tend to think of it more as having a
Speaker 10: union with Christ aspect to it.
Speaker 9: No, No, the doctrine of justification in classical Reformation teaching
Speaker 9: does not posit that the basis of the legal imputation
Speaker 9: is anything that you do. That's Luther.
Speaker 10: I don't know.
Speaker 9: You don't know. I mean, I've read Luther's commentary on
Speaker 9: Romans is commentary on Galatians. You don't think he teaches that.
Speaker 10: Yeah, Well, he might teach something like that, or he
Speaker 10: might He might be kind of inconsistent because he also
Speaker 10: speaks very highly of baptism in it that in baptism,
Speaker 10: that's that's when we are clothed Christ's righteousness. I'd also
Speaker 10: go to Romans six, like we we truly die with
Speaker 10: Christ's in baptism and are.
Speaker 9: United to him in that way. Yeah, I understand. He
Speaker 9: teaches baptism regeneration, but even baptism regeneration, the gifts and
Speaker 9: graces of that come to you because you're elect right,
Speaker 9: So he believes in predestination like Augustine does. Se the
Speaker 9: actions and works that you do, even going to the
Speaker 9: baptismal font. In Luther's view, it's God that caused you
Speaker 9: to get there and to be baptized. So even those
Speaker 9: works are the works that God caused in you. Maybe
Speaker 9: maybe somewhat hold on, hold on, hold on, you say,
Speaker 9: maybe somewhat. Have you read Bonda of the Will, I've
Speaker 9: started it. Okay, Well, that's why he's got.
Speaker 14: A strong, a strong predestination view.
Speaker 9: And he says what I just told you because I
Speaker 9: read this book twenty years ago. Yeah, well, I know.
Speaker 10: We also just believe in infant baptism and that all
Speaker 10: babies who.
Speaker 9: Are I know that, but that still can fit within
Speaker 9: an Augustinian predestinarian model. Augustine believed the same thing, that
Speaker 9: infants who make it to the font were destined to
Speaker 9: be there. In Augustine's model, he doesn't believe that that
Speaker 9: necessitates that you get the gift of perseverance, so you
Speaker 9: might fall away in the Augustinian model. Luther's model is
Speaker 9: more like a well, if you fell away, you were
Speaker 9: never really elect So I know he's not a Calvinist
Speaker 9: because he believes in a baptism regeneration. Calvin does not.
Speaker 9: But I assure you that what I'm telling you is correct.
Speaker 9: I had when I was a Calvinist. I had a
Speaker 9: period maybe a year, where I was tempted to be
Speaker 9: interested in Lutheranism, and so I read about six or
Speaker 9: seven of Luther's books twenty years ago. But I eventually
Speaker 9: was not convinced because Lutheranism is crystologically erroneous. And I
Speaker 9: read Luther's debate with Jan Eck, and if you read
Speaker 9: the full debate, it's pretty funny. And I found k
Speaker 9: to be the winner of that debate. But I thank
Speaker 9: you for your questions. Uh, we're looking for Protestants tonight,
Speaker 9: so I see a lot of Orthodox guys. I'm asking
Speaker 9: for Protestants, Holy Assassin, what's up? Protestants or Catholics are
Speaker 9: Muslims tonight? Please? If you're an Orthodox catechumen, don't bring you.
Speaker 2: What's up?
Speaker 4: How's it going your mind.
Speaker 15: Yeah, honestly, I mainly wanted to kind of discuss the
Speaker 15: Orthodox Church.
Speaker 4: View of the Old Testament, but I I just had
Speaker 4: a quick question.
Speaker 15: So I've heard you say that, like when you're when
Speaker 15: you are defending the Orthodox position on justification, you say
Speaker 15: like that, even like putting your faith in Jesus is
Speaker 15: a word you do right with Like, ha, do you
Speaker 15: reconcile with that? With Ephesians where Paul says that.
Speaker 9: You know that salvation is a gift, Jesus is the
Speaker 9: one that says this is the work of God, that
Speaker 9: you believe on him that He's sent.
Speaker 14: Are you there?
Speaker 9: I can't hear you, So I don't know if you
Speaker 9: dropped off for what. Yeah. I don't think there's any
Speaker 9: discord between the idea that works are necessary and that
Speaker 9: their gifts of grace. The only difference is that I
Speaker 9: don't believe in the Lutheran view that God is directly
Speaker 9: causing me to do the good works. There's a cooperation
Speaker 9: that goes along with me working with God. And that's
Speaker 9: why Paul can say that the only faith that counts
Speaker 9: this is Paul, not James. Paul says, the only faith
Speaker 9: that counts is the faith that worketh through love. And
Speaker 9: when he lists what love is and verse twenty thirteen,
Speaker 9: it's a bunch of works. So Paul teaches the necessity
Speaker 9: of works. But the works, as Augustine says, themselves, are
Speaker 9: also divine gifts of grace. That doesn't mean that I
Speaker 9: don't cooperate. But I can still say that my good
Speaker 9: works even though I do have a synergy that God
Speaker 9: created me to have as a created being who cooperates
Speaker 9: with God, like Paul says, Paul says, I am a
Speaker 9: co worker with Christ. Is Paul detracting from God's grace
Speaker 9: because he calls himself a coworker. No, and so likewise
Speaker 9: we are co workers. But get the works themselves are
Speaker 9: also done by grace. If you want to come back,
Speaker 9: try again, if you're at Mike's.
Speaker 14: Working, you can hear me.
Speaker 15: Yeah, yeah, mat, I totally got disconnected. So yeah, So
Speaker 15: the Orthodox Church, right, you have a canon? So like
Speaker 15: what's the basis of the Orthodox canon? Because and like,
Speaker 15: how do you even trust that the Orthodox is right
Speaker 15: when they determined that this particular book belongs to canon,
Speaker 15: Like what is the reliability of that perce it's the
Speaker 15: same as.
Speaker 9: The reliability that you you would use. Right, So I
Speaker 9: don't know if you did you hear the explanations or
Speaker 9: did you get booted out? Right? Jesus says, this is
Speaker 9: the work of God that you believe in him that
Speaker 9: he has sent John six twenty nine. So that wasn't
Speaker 9: me saying that it was quoting Christ calling faith at work.
Speaker 15: Okay, Yeah, I kind of got booted out by accident.
Speaker 9: Body here thatch okay. And then I said that Ephesians
Speaker 9: when it talks about the works or that we're not
Speaker 9: saved by works that we do, but by grace, that
Speaker 9: doesn't mean that there's not a requirement of us doing works.
Speaker 9: It means that our status and our interests into salvation
Speaker 9: is not something that we deserve or earned because Jesus
Speaker 9: saved us, right, Jesus died for us. We didn't tell
Speaker 9: him that what he needed to do, and we didn't
Speaker 9: earn his death. That was all done out of his
Speaker 9: over abundance of love for us. So, but that doesn't
Speaker 9: mean that I don't synergize with and work with God
Speaker 9: work out my salvation with fear and trembling, as Paul says.
Speaker 9: Paul says he's a co worker with Christ, and Paul
Speaker 9: says that the only faith that saves is the one
Speaker 9: that worketh through love.
Speaker 4: Fair point.
Speaker 15: So just another question before I move on to the
Speaker 15: actual Old Testament arguments that had so like the proudence
Speaker 15: in prices of like faith is what saves you. But
Speaker 15: like the words there they just like sanctify you, Like
Speaker 15: that's what you do after you get justified, right, So
Speaker 15: like do you agree with that?
Speaker 9: No, because justification in the Bible and in the ancient
Speaker 9: world was not a pure legal standing, and that's why
Speaker 9: Luther and the reformers needed the philosophy of nominalism, which
Speaker 9: divorced the actual reality from the name or the title
Speaker 9: of it. That's called nominalism. The ancient world didn't have
Speaker 9: nominalists really, So anybody who talked about in the ancient
Speaker 9: medieval world as being quote righteous or being just that
Speaker 9: meant they had the actual ontological power and quality of
Speaker 9: being that. It wasn't just a legal status.
Speaker 4: Fair point.
Speaker 15: So this is where I wanted to get into, like
Speaker 15: my arguments, let's say, like against the Orthodox Church. So
Speaker 15: you know the Orthodox Church they have a different Old
Speaker 15: Testament canon, and so I was just wondering, like sure,
Speaker 15: like you know, there's the idea that the church has
Speaker 15: the authority to decide, you know, the canon for the
Speaker 15: Old Testament New Testament, But what is the basis for
Speaker 15: accepting the Old Testament considering that, Like when I was
Speaker 15: doing research as well in my personal research, it showed
Speaker 15: that it led me to believe that a lot of
Speaker 15: the scholars right the books of the Old Testament they
Speaker 15: have been edited out and then like some of the
Speaker 15: authors are unknown. For example, even the Book of Isaiah.
Speaker 15: I think I had the Orthodox Study Bible that I have,
Speaker 15: Like they kind of just give a generic traditional answer,
Speaker 15: which doesn't really work.
Speaker 4: So for the Book of Isaiah, for.
Speaker 15: Example, I think the Orthodox City Bible does say that
Speaker 15: that it was written by the prophet Isaiah, but you
Speaker 15: know there's nothing like there's no good evidence.
Speaker 9: For it, and like all the how do you know that?
Speaker 14: No.
Speaker 9: In fact, the the Dead Sea Scrolls contained old ancient
Speaker 9: text of Isaiah. So I think the Dead Sea Scrolls
Speaker 9: is one of the things that is an attestation to
Speaker 9: the validity of Isaiah. And I mean you can say that,
Speaker 9: I mean, if you're going to read a bunch of
Speaker 9: like higher critical stuff I mean, they're going to say
Speaker 9: that any of the Protestant stuff you believe is also false.
Speaker 9: So I mean to use higher critical stuff to prove
Speaker 9: Protestantism unless you were an atheist. And maybe you're already atheism.
Speaker 9: I don't know, but to me, it seems like it's
Speaker 9: a double edged sword. Kov, what's up. The reason that
Speaker 9: the duoconomical texts are in the Bible is because the
Speaker 9: apostles have they used primarily the septuagent and the subtu
Speaker 9: agent included the dudo chronical texts, and that's why the
Speaker 9: Apostles cite and refer to the duo canon many many times.
Speaker 4: Go ahead, Hey, j how are you doing?
Speaker 9: What's up? Man? I'm good? How are you?
Speaker 4: So?
Speaker 26: I was raised in a non denominational church, went to
Speaker 26: Sunday School, went.
Speaker 4: To youth church, and you know, whole manuorids.
Speaker 26: Kind of stopped going to church.
Speaker 4: It was, you know, very low church.
Speaker 26: So I didn't feel too bad about like not going
Speaker 26: when my parents weren't making me anymore. But recently I
Speaker 26: just had a daughter and I'm like, I, you know,
Speaker 26: I got to get my family back to church. So
Speaker 26: I start looking at non anominal churches near me, and
Speaker 26: I couldn't really find one, but I found.
Speaker 4: A bunch of other denominations.
Speaker 26: I started looking into those, and I realized I had
Speaker 26: no idea about theology. I just got a couple questions
Speaker 26: for you, Okay. So I heard a lot of like,
Speaker 26: you know, the canon and all that stuff.
Speaker 2: Was it just Martin Luther that took.
Speaker 26: The books out and now all Protestants follow that?
Speaker 9: Well, he was the first.
Speaker 2: Uh.
Speaker 9: And then you had people who were humanists, and that
Speaker 9: doesn't mean secular humanists, but like Theodore Beza and Calvin
Speaker 9: and other reformers were very into a movement at that
Speaker 9: time called humanism, which was a desire to go back
Speaker 9: to the original texts, languages, and sources. So it was
Speaker 9: kind of a movement that amongst intellectuals at that time
Speaker 9: to prefer to look at, say, the Hebrew text versus
Speaker 9: the Greek translation of the subtu agent. So that also
Speaker 9: was part of the motivations. It wasn't just well to
Speaker 9: do what Luther said, right because Calvin and Calvin's not
Speaker 9: He might respect Luthor, but he's not going to just
Speaker 9: do it because Luther said it or did it. Calvin
Speaker 9: was a scholar of his own mind and devising, and
Speaker 9: so he was interested in going back to Hebrew and
Speaker 9: Greek texts, and that was part of the reason why
Speaker 9: they thought, well, that would lead us to the masoretic
Speaker 9: texts of the Jews versus the Canada Scripture that the
Speaker 9: that the Latin Papal Church had normalized.
Speaker 11: Got it?
Speaker 14: Okay, thank you?
Speaker 9: So I heard I've heard you.
Speaker 26: In past videos talk about, you know, the five solas.
Speaker 26: Now you are you just against sol scriptur and so or.
Speaker 4: Is there the other three that you I mean?
Speaker 9: I think the way that classical Protestantism brings the meanings
Speaker 9: of those terms out, the way it fleshes out the solas,
Speaker 9: we would as Orthodox disagree with all the solos the
Speaker 9: way they define them.
Speaker 11: Okay, Okay, Now something I hear.
Speaker 26: So basically, I'm a slow boy, and so learning like
Speaker 26: by reading is hard. I've been listening to a bunch
Speaker 26: of Christian apologetics and debates and stuff. So I hear
Speaker 26: a lot of Calvinists, and I'm sure many other.
Speaker 9: Protestants say this as well.
Speaker 26: But like they say like by or by grace through
Speaker 26: faith or something like that, and then they'll turn around
Speaker 26: and then say by faith alone. And I don't know
Speaker 26: if you've heard the by grace through faith.
Speaker 4: Or something like that.
Speaker 9: I used to be a Protestant with the prost seminary bro.
Speaker 4: So when they're saying that, what does that mean versus
Speaker 4: just so.
Speaker 9: The assumption is that human operation, energy and activity can
Speaker 9: in no way tribute to the root and ground of salvation,
Speaker 9: because this would be to detract from God's glory, in
Speaker 9: God's sovereignty, in God's grace in salvation. So, if you
Speaker 9: have anything to do with it in terms of the
Speaker 9: legal status of your justification and the imputation, you're basing
Speaker 9: your salvation on works. You're basing your salvation on yourself
Speaker 9: self worship, will worship, and you're detracting from God and
Speaker 9: you're worshiping yourself. It's an idol. This is the classic
Speaker 9: Protestant Reformation preachy way to go after any notion of
Speaker 9: synergy or synergism. Even though there's many arguments in many
Speaker 9: ways to combat this. I've listed several already. Tonight. Jesus
Speaker 9: calls faith a work in John six twenty nine. This
Speaker 9: is the work of God. Jesus says that when God speaks,
Speaker 9: it comes about right when God speaks to create the world.
Speaker 9: It happens. When God speaks into our hearts, it happens.
Speaker 9: So there's no such thing as God speaking and it
Speaker 9: not being efficacious. Oh, God calls your righteous, but you're
Speaker 9: filthy rags, You're an evil, wicked thing. But that's the
Speaker 9: actual basis of both Luther and Calvin's doctrine of justification
Speaker 9: by imputation and faith alone. Even the action of you
Speaker 9: believing in Luther or Calvin's system is not the basis
Speaker 9: of your salvation. That is also something God caused in you,
Speaker 9: and thus that removes you from having any contribution to
Speaker 9: the salvation. When you do good works and when you
Speaker 9: are sanctified, those are all flowing from the justification status
Speaker 9: that you got, which has nothing to do with you.
Speaker 9: So you do contribute to and cooperate in sanctification, but
Speaker 9: that sanctification process has absolutely nothing to do with the
Speaker 9: original justification status or the regeneration status. Even though Luther's
Speaker 9: a little inconsistent on that, Luther would just say, well,
Speaker 9: God caused you to get to the font. So even
Speaker 9: baptism regeneration in Luther's mind is still somewhat monargistic. Again
Speaker 9: read bonded to the will or read it twenty years ago.
Speaker 9: Luther believes that God's the direct cause of everything in
Speaker 9: your life, including the good and bad works. Calvin's not
Speaker 9: that extreme. He says, no, if there's anything good in
Speaker 9: your life, that's God, anything bad that's you. But even
Speaker 9: the good works are tainted, filthy rags in Calvin's view.
Speaker 9: So you see justification in the classical Protestant systems are
Speaker 9: very precise, they're very legal oriented. They're strictly legal status positions,
Speaker 9: not based on ontological realities. I'm not saying that the
Speaker 9: Protestant positions don't believe in antological change in you. They do,
Speaker 9: but the ontological change in you that ultimately, this sort
Speaker 9: of sanctification in your process of being made holy has
Speaker 9: nothing to do with your original justification legal status that
Speaker 9: is only on the basis of Christ's work and ultimately
Speaker 9: whether you're elect or not. And that's both Luther and
Speaker 9: Calvin's view because both believed in unconditional election because they
Speaker 9: followed Augustine very strictly. Okay, what's up, Jake Moore? Five dollars?
Speaker 9: I'm a Catholic, but for the win, very heavy, Jay,
Speaker 9: have very very I don't know what that means. Fw
Speaker 9: J heavy Hold on a second. What do you know about?
Speaker 9: Just one second? What do you like about Shamoon? What
Speaker 9: do you take issue with? Again, We've addressed this countless times.
Speaker 9: I've done many, many, many streams and talks, talked to
Speaker 9: Sam Schumann all the time. But Sam is at a
Speaker 9: position where he believes that all of the Apostolic churches
Speaker 9: have a sort of a common Apostolicity, but he doesn't
Speaker 9: believe in a single divine institution per se, and so
Speaker 9: he says he's not sure which of these. So I
Speaker 9: would take an issue with that because obviously I promote
Speaker 9: the Orthodox Church. Okay, what's up?
Speaker 4: Hey, Jay?
Speaker 9: How are you good?
Speaker 5: Nice to meet you man, I've been listening to you
Speaker 5: for years, we never actually spoke with you in person.
Speaker 4: Hey, thank you.
Speaker 5: So first, I just want to say glory to Jesus Christ,
Speaker 5: and I really hope that this conversation can be fruitful
Speaker 5: and we can both you know, remember that first and
Speaker 5: foremost as Christians, we need to treat each other and
Speaker 5: love and respect. So why is it that you get
Speaker 5: nervous as soon as you come up, but before you're
Speaker 5: like completely calm what so weird.
Speaker 9: No, I'm saying, Oh, I'll tell you. I think you're
Speaker 9: talking about me.
Speaker 5: And I was like, oh, no, you're you're a vetman. Yeah,
Speaker 5: So first I did want to ask you. So I
Speaker 5: was listening to your conversation the other day with that
Speaker 5: the Joseph guy, the Ben Joseph what was it?
Speaker 4: The was he Mormon?
Speaker 9: Oh? His name was Robert Gerr. You talking about that guy?
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, saying that like the Joseph and the New
Speaker 5: test Yes.
Speaker 9: The two messiahs that the Talmut has.
Speaker 4: Yeah, right, And I was just thinking.
Speaker 5: Well, maybe I'm a prophet because my middle name is Joseph.
Speaker 9: So there you go. How do we know it's not
Speaker 9: about you? Maybe it is, Hey, it could.
Speaker 4: Be God forbid. So I had a question in that conversation.
Speaker 5: And I am someone who believes, well, I used to
Speaker 5: believe very deeply in the pre sup based on the
Speaker 5: teachings of Van Till and Bonson. I got introduced to them,
Speaker 5: read their books. I've had some difficulties with it. So
Speaker 5: I was hoping first that maybe I could share with
Speaker 5: you some of my difficulties because I do believe that
Speaker 5: it debunks atheism, like atheism and agnoscissism, I do believe.
Speaker 4: My issue is how do I defend it.
Speaker 5: Against other transcendental justifications, other transcendental roundings, or when they
Speaker 5: do the whole like, well, I have a rock and
Speaker 5: his name is Paul, and he has all the attributes
Speaker 5: of the Christian God except for this one thing that
Speaker 5: he's like he lied once or something.
Speaker 9: Right. Well, we've addressed that, and I'm not saying this
Speaker 9: to be rude to you. We've addressed that many, many,
Speaker 9: many times, because many people have brought that up. And
Speaker 9: I argue that the Monson van Till crowd could only
Speaker 9: get so far with the argument because they had a
Speaker 9: defective Calvinist theology, so they didn't have a good Trinitarian
Speaker 9: model to work with. And also they didn't have a
Speaker 9: lot of the toolkit of the Christian metaphysics that we
Speaker 9: have as orthodox Orthodox theology and metaphysics is very vast
Speaker 9: and very it's a better toolkit. I don't have to
Speaker 9: say it. So when I make the tag argument, I
Speaker 9: argue that depending upon who I'm debating, but ultimately speaking,
Speaker 9: it's not just a defense of an abstract conception of
Speaker 9: a deity that reconciles one in many or an abstract
Speaker 9: deity that's like a math problem or something like that.
Speaker 9: You're actually arguing for the entire Christian worldview, and at
Speaker 9: times Vonton Eventil would actually say that that, they would
Speaker 9: actually make that point. So if that's the case, then
Speaker 9: the whole world view is actually grounded on trinitarian theology.
Speaker 9: And if orthodox Trinitarian theology is a correct Trinitarian theology,
Speaker 9: then you need orthodox trinitary theology and the metaphysics that
Speaker 9: flows from that. So you need the essence introducecinction, you
Speaker 9: need the low Gie doctrine for divine conceptualism. You need
Speaker 9: all kinds of things that are just not in the
Speaker 9: Calvinist mindset to make it work. To refute, furthermore, on
Speaker 9: a more basic level, when somebody says something like, oh, well,
Speaker 9: my rock, I have a rock that has all the
Speaker 9: same attributes, Well, first of all, it would not be
Speaker 9: the same attributes if it's a rock. A rock is
Speaker 9: a created thing, so to give the rock all the
Speaker 9: attributes of the Trinity would be absurd. But beyond that,
Speaker 9: it's even more flawed because the Christian paradigm is not
Speaker 9: just an abstract conceptual list of propositions or doctrines or
Speaker 9: ideas like math problems or sets or something like that.
Speaker 9: It's actually a historic religion, so you actually need the
Speaker 9: incarnational aspect, God stepping into time and space, the Son
Speaker 9: of God becoming man. That affects our view of history.
Speaker 9: God stepped into history, so history is now part of
Speaker 9: the Christian paradigm, you see. And so this atheist, this
Speaker 9: specuative view of the trinitarian rock God, would not have
Speaker 9: all the same attributes. It would also be an obvious
Speaker 9: copy paste from the already historically grounded and situated religion
Speaker 9: of Christianity.
Speaker 5: Okay, do you have any books that I could read
Speaker 5: other than because I'm pretty much done with Bonton. I
Speaker 5: was reading his how he kind of interprets the van
Speaker 5: Til because man Till is very heavy, so he tries
Speaker 5: to come in and kind of interpret it for someone
Speaker 5: that's a little more late. But like you said, there's
Speaker 5: issues with that, and this dude just keeps repeating himself
Speaker 5: over and over. I'm like one hundred pages in and
Speaker 5: he said the same thing like twenty times. So do
Speaker 5: you have any other books that you would recommend for
Speaker 5: the precept that I could learn a.
Speaker 9: Little bit more honestly, not really not from them. I
Speaker 9: would say watch all of our old transcendental argument and
Speaker 9: precept videos going back last six years, because we get
Speaker 9: into all the all those questions, all those questions that
Speaker 9: all those questions that you're asking. You know, we actually
Speaker 9: have dealt with us for a long time. So that
Speaker 9: might be a better route than saying, oh, go read
Speaker 9: Bonson here, because Bonnson and Ben Tall are not going
Speaker 9: to deal with those questions. They don't have the tool
Speaker 9: kit to deal with it. Modernity, what's up? Even though,
Speaker 9: like you said, they did get so far with tag
Speaker 9: recovering areaan three dollars. In my opinion, the only thing
Speaker 9: left to debunk in the Protestants is conservative non Calvinist
Speaker 9: high churches that claim up so succession in Liturgic War.
Speaker 9: So Anglicans, well, that may be the case, but there's
Speaker 9: not a lot of those. I mean, I've had like
Speaker 9: maybe two Anglicans ever call into debate. So I mean,
Speaker 9: if that's what's left, then we're doing pretty good because
Speaker 9: there's not a lot of there's not a lot of
Speaker 9: loud Anglican voices. Although I did try to get that
Speaker 9: Black Day with Afro Calvin Robinson or whatever his name is.
Speaker 9: We were having exchanges back and forth before he did
Speaker 9: his faux tiny mustache man debacle thing, which was kind
Speaker 9: of ridiculous, and I think his Anglican synod made him
Speaker 9: step down. We're just in this is such a weird
Speaker 9: time to be alive where Kanye and Anglican black dudes
Speaker 9: are like doing Roman salutes and putting up tiny mustache
Speaker 9: man symbols. Like, it's just such a weird time to
Speaker 9: be alive. I don't even know how to process it.
Speaker 9: Like I'm not saying Calvin Robinson is a tiny mustache
Speaker 9: Man follower. I know he's not. But we were actually
Speaker 9: discussing having a kind of a debate, and then he
Speaker 9: just kind of wind and bitched about me challenging him
Speaker 9: to a debate when he said he would debate people.
Speaker 9: It's just and by the way, like to give a
Speaker 9: shout out to Dasha, I don't have anything against this
Speaker 9: girl she put up. By the way, she was on
Speaker 9: Sam Hyde's Perfect Guy Life, like right before I was
Speaker 9: like a week or two before me, maybe a month
Speaker 9: before me. I think she's an actress in some series.
Speaker 9: I forget what, But she went from being on the left,
Speaker 9: and she was part of Chapo Traphouse, remember that podcast.
Speaker 9: And then now she is going to an Eastern Catholic
Speaker 9: church and she's always tweeting about I'll debate anybody about
Speaker 9: worths like stuff, and I'm like, let's do it, and uh,
Speaker 9: I'm not going to be mean, and then she's like, oh,
Speaker 9: I'm not going to quarrel during lent during Lent and
Speaker 9: it's like, well, you just said you wanted to do it.
Speaker 9: So it's like people put these things out where they
Speaker 9: want to do this stuff, and Calvin Robinson did the
Speaker 9: same thing, and then when you say all right, let's
Speaker 9: do it, then suddenly they dash it. Whatever. She didn't
Speaker 9: do this, but that Calvin Robinson did it was oh
Speaker 9: look how look out what a piece of shit this
Speaker 9: dude is. So it's like, I want to put myself
Speaker 9: out there. I want to say I'm ready to debate anybody.
Speaker 9: When people actually then say they want a debate. Look
Speaker 9: at this piece of shit. Look at him. Oh he
Speaker 9: just wants attention. Dude, you're the one saying that you
Speaker 9: wanted this. What are you talking about. People on the
Speaker 9: internet are just insane, man, They just don't It's like
Speaker 9: and then everybody thinks I'm being mean. It's like, how
Speaker 9: am I being mean if I'm asking them to come
Speaker 9: have the discussion that they said they wanted, So now
Speaker 9: I just don't want it with you. That's what it is.
Speaker 4: Like.
Speaker 9: They want to have the discussion with a bunch of idiots.
Speaker 9: They don't want to have that with you. I feel
Speaker 9: like I feel like I'm turning into Quentin. They don't
Speaker 9: want to have that with me. Okay, I'm turning into
Speaker 9: freaking Quentin Tarantino. Okay, like we're gonna We're not gonna
Speaker 9: have that discussion because I'm gonna shut your butt down. Okay,
Speaker 9: you want to have discussion, but now with me, Okay,
Speaker 9: now with me, right, and let's just be freaking honest
Speaker 9: about that. Okay, I'm turning into Tarantino. Jamie, welcome back.
Speaker 9: Could you make me an espresso ex tanglia ten dollars?
Speaker 9: Smash the leg button Wi Fi Gospel. We already read that.
Speaker 9: Excuse me. I'm trying to make sure I didn't miss
Speaker 9: the super shit. I feel like I did. We got that,
Speaker 9: We got that, We got that, got that. Okay, we
Speaker 9: get more over here on YouTube, Thoughlet's say Joshua Strove
Speaker 9: into twenty Jay. I want to find an Orthodox church.
Speaker 9: There's a few in my area. What do I need
Speaker 9: to look for? Should I be aware of a humanism? Yeah,
Speaker 9: I mean I think that's the big you know, if
Speaker 9: he's if the priest seems you know, skittlesy or whatever,
Speaker 9: just go to the other one. But I always tell
Speaker 9: people don't worry about jurisdictions if you're new to Orthodoxy,
Speaker 9: because it's not really a thing you have to worry
Speaker 9: that much about. Like, if you're new, what you want
Speaker 9: to do is check all the churches in your area
Speaker 9: and find the one that's the best fit for you
Speaker 9: based on the priest and the people there, because that's
Speaker 9: going to be your family. So don't worry about internet
Speaker 9: drama or whatever unless it's something like really you know big,
Speaker 9: like I would stay away from LP to forests. He's
Speaker 9: a notorious you know, marches with BLM people. I mean,
Speaker 9: he's bad news. But don't worry about jurisdictions. Jason T.
Speaker 9: Five bucks, Thank you so much. Theology explore two dollars
Speaker 9: Hollywood requesting is from a reform background. Okay, I'll pull
Speaker 9: him up if he's still there. Hey, Jamie, could you
Speaker 9: make me an espresso? Thank you appreciate it. What's up man?
Speaker 9: You know I'm mute? Do you turn your mic on?
Speaker 7: I think.
Speaker 9: Hollywood? What's up date? Leo? Leo DiCaprio, Thomas b How
Speaker 9: are bishops that allow contraception or chrismate those who aren't
Speaker 9: triple and is to be reviewed? Hey?
Speaker 4: Yeah, sorry, So I have a question. I don't know
Speaker 4: if it's properate to stream.
Speaker 26: Or not, but I was basically asking, so, with the transcendental.
Speaker 4: Argument, how did you make the jump from that?
Speaker 21: I have a stream on still, how did you get
Speaker 21: a jump from that to Christianity in the Bible?
Speaker 9: Because the argument is an argument for an entire worldview
Speaker 9: that includes a lot of metaphysical beliefs and ethical beliefs,
Speaker 9: And the argument is that the Christian worldview also provides
Speaker 9: the toolkit and the grounding for those metaphysical beliefs and
Speaker 9: ethical beliefs.
Speaker 14: Okay, yeah, this is a question.
Speaker 2: Really, I was going to debate something else, but.
Speaker 9: What's the other? So I'll get out? Thanks, what's the
Speaker 9: other topic? You want?
Speaker 4: But to that? No?
Speaker 7: He left?
Speaker 9: Okay, t K breaks five solas? Where's that guy? Is
Speaker 9: that that guy that's posting the trail of blood stupid
Speaker 9: stuff on the on Twitter. Oh my gosh, I've been
Speaker 9: asking that guy to come to Baate for months. Where's
Speaker 9: he at? Come on, dude, where are you at? Here's
Speaker 9: the here calling right here?
Speaker 4: Man?
Speaker 9: Is he five solas or five the chad solas? I
Speaker 9: forget this guy's name. It's like, t K, what's up?
Speaker 11: Man?
Speaker 9: I'm mute?
Speaker 4: Hey, what's up?
Speaker 12: Can you hear me?
Speaker 11: Yes?
Speaker 9: Sir?
Speaker 4: Hey, how's it going?
Speaker 9: What's on your mind?
Speaker 4: I'm new to the channel. I just tuned in.
Speaker 27: I saw the tag protestansm Protestantism is false, prove me wrong?
Speaker 4: So and then I heard you say something about your
Speaker 4: being like orthodox.
Speaker 9: Yeah, so.
Speaker 4: Do you think that Orthodoxy is like the one true Church?
Speaker 9: Yes?
Speaker 4: Okay, yeah.
Speaker 27: Scripture would argue that I don't need to argue that,
Speaker 27: because Scripture argues that for me. Jesus himself says that
Speaker 27: he's against sectarianism, and I can tell you the verses.
Speaker 9: Two, right, But this is prior to that, because I
Speaker 9: would argue that the Orthodox Church is who put that
Speaker 9: Bible together. So the reason that he's against sectarianism is
Speaker 9: because he set up a College of Apostles who have
Speaker 9: successors who are his church. So anyone who's not the
Speaker 9: Orthodox Church is the sectarians that you're talking about.
Speaker 28: Yeah, I'm sure you've had this argument before, but what
Speaker 28: you just said is like self defeating because you just
Speaker 28: said that if they were the ones that set up
Speaker 28: the Bible, and in what is in the Bible is
Speaker 28: the most true, which I believe it to be the
Speaker 28: most true, then sectarianism is against Jesus' will?
Speaker 9: Correct, right? I agree?
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, So I don't know why you're like trying
Speaker 4: to be divisive.
Speaker 9: Well, I'm not being divisive because I'm calling people to
Speaker 9: the unity of the same church that existed in the first, second, third, fourth, fifth, sixth, seventh,
Speaker 9: eighth centuries. So we believe the same as those people.
Speaker 9: That's the identical beliefs in church that we have today.
Speaker 9: So that shows that whatever Protestant sect you're in is
Speaker 9: the actual sectarianism.
Speaker 4: I never said I was in one. In what a
Speaker 4: Protestant sect?
Speaker 9: Okay, what are you in?
Speaker 4: I just follow the Bible?
Speaker 9: Wells that doesn't exist. That's even worse, because that's worse
Speaker 9: than a sectarian church that's you alone, that doesn't exist.
Speaker 4: It does exist.
Speaker 27: There's Bible, there's Bible churches. You can be a follower
Speaker 27: of Christ and not belong to specific sect.
Speaker 9: Jesus Jesus established. Jesus established a church, and that church.
Speaker 9: If you look at Paul's epistles first and second, Timothy
Speaker 9: is based around. In that case at Ephesus, the person
Speaker 9: that Paul laid his hands on, who is Timothy. And
Speaker 9: then Paul tells Timothy, don't pass on this apostolic deposit
Speaker 9: without laying hands on somebody who you know is approved,
Speaker 9: because it gives the gift of the Holy Spirit. That's
Speaker 9: apostolic succession. It mirrors the example in numbers eleven where
Speaker 9: Moses lays hands on the elders to give them authority
Speaker 9: and the spirit that Moses had, so the Holy Spirit
Speaker 9: goes from Moses to the seventy elders. That parallels the
Speaker 9: apostolic succession of the New Testament, particularly enacts one where
Speaker 9: you have a replacement for Judas, and it says that
Speaker 9: replaced his office or episcopate. That's episcopal church government. And
Speaker 9: that's why when I'm when I'm telling you, if you
Speaker 9: look at the church in the first, second, third, fourth, fifth,
Speaker 9: sixth seventh centuries. They don't teach evangelical do it yourself
Speaker 9: Bible church stuff. They believe in what the Orthodox Church teaches.
Speaker 9: So you're the sectarian.
Speaker 28: I don't believe so, because it's very clear in the
Speaker 28: even in the Apostles Creeds says they believe in the One.
Speaker 4: Catholic Church. What what do you think Catholic means?
Speaker 9: So we don't follow the Apostles creed? That's pseudonymous, that's
Speaker 9: a Western creed. You're talking about the nice you constant
Speaker 9: apolican Constantapolitan creed. It says one Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.
Speaker 9: That's the four marks? Does your strip mall Bible Church?
Speaker 9: The foremarts?
Speaker 4: But you didn't answer my question.
Speaker 9: I said, one Holy Catholic Episolic, the four Marks, that's
Speaker 9: what's necessary for the church.
Speaker 4: No, I asked you, what is Catholic mean?
Speaker 9: Fullness of truth? According to the fathers who Yes, it does,
Speaker 9: according to the fathers who composed that. That's what they
Speaker 9: interpret it.
Speaker 7: To me.
Speaker 4: No, it means universal.
Speaker 9: It means in the Orthodox Church, not just universality in
Speaker 9: terms of numbers. Because Roman Catholics make this argument that
Speaker 9: it means numbers in terms of universality. That's why I'm
Speaker 9: qualifying it with fullness of truth. That's what it means
Speaker 9: in the Orthodox Church. So it can't be numbers. Let
Speaker 9: me give an example why in the fourth century the
Speaker 9: majority of the church was aryan or semi arian. So
Speaker 9: you can't identify it with a large number of people
Speaker 9: the fullness.
Speaker 4: You're conflating like a heresy with Yeah.
Speaker 9: No, I'm not. I know this subject matter very well.
Speaker 9: I'm not conflating anything. I'm telling you.
Speaker 4: Because you've had these debates.
Speaker 9: Over and no, I've studied this for twenty plus years.
Speaker 9: It's not just abase.
Speaker 28: What you're having is willful ignorance, like you're choosing to
Speaker 28: disregard when people have told you in the past that
Speaker 28: Catholic means universal.
Speaker 9: No, I know what the word itself means. I'm giving
Speaker 9: you the Orthodox explanation that it's not just a universality
Speaker 9: sense of numbers. I'm giving you a deeper sense that
Speaker 9: the Orthodox theological tradition gives it. I know that I
Speaker 9: know what universality is. I learned this stuff twenty five
Speaker 9: years ago. Dude, yea, yeah, yeah, So why are you
Speaker 9: mocking me because of Your condescension and condescending attitude is
Speaker 9: getting on my nerves.
Speaker 4: I'm not being condescend you are.
Speaker 9: You're talking about that people have told me this in
Speaker 9: the past, and I wasn't rebuked properly and I didn't
Speaker 9: listen to them. What are you even talking about.
Speaker 4: I'm not rebuking you.
Speaker 9: You said people in the past told me this, and
Speaker 9: I'm being arrogant and I need to be rebuked. That's
Speaker 9: what you're saying. Not being passive aggressive. Come on, get
Speaker 9: to your point. What's your argument.
Speaker 4: I'm not being passive aggressive either.
Speaker 9: One Holy Catholic Apostolic does not mean stripball Bible church
Speaker 9: like you believe.
Speaker 4: Okay, that's that's just rude.
Speaker 9: Okay, it's rude. Fun, It doesn't matter. What's your argument.
Speaker 4: See, what you're doing is condescending.
Speaker 9: Stop doing the two quote now you want to do it.
Speaker 9: Stop telling policing. Get to the argument.
Speaker 4: This is so.
Speaker 9: Like you said, you belong to your own thing at
Speaker 9: a Bible church. That's what strip mall Bible churches are.
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's that's like super condescending.
Speaker 9: So you know, I feel like, well, you're making bad
Speaker 9: arguments because you started out wanting to argue that they
Speaker 9: stop interrupting.
Speaker 4: Is the Bible making bad arguments? Because I already told
Speaker 4: you that it's the Bible that No, it's not.
Speaker 9: You don't know. How do you have the right How
Speaker 9: do you know you have the right Bible?
Speaker 4: How do you know you have the right Bible?
Speaker 9: I can look to the Orthodox I can look to
Speaker 9: the Orthodox tradition and the canons of the Apostles that
Speaker 9: we pulled up earlier.
Speaker 4: Mm hmmm. And so they tell you it's like the
Speaker 4: King James or something.
Speaker 9: The King James, the Church Fathers. No, the canons of
Speaker 9: the appoll muscles are like the three hundreds. That's not
Speaker 9: going to be the King James. Goofas I know.
Speaker 4: I was choking.
Speaker 9: No, no, you didn't know what we're talking about. I'm
Speaker 9: talking about Apostolic Canon eighty five.
Speaker 4: You know what that is? The Apostolic Canon eighty five?
Speaker 9: No, I don't know, right, So you are joking, you
Speaker 9: have no idea?
Speaker 4: I was joking about the King James thing.
Speaker 9: Okay, how do you know that you have the right
Speaker 9: Protestant Bible?
Speaker 4: Okay, how do you know that I'm a Protestant.
Speaker 9: That's a too My gosh, this is too stupid. We're done.
Speaker 4: Bye.
Speaker 9: That was the dumbest guy I've ever talked to. Nick. Nick. Yeah,
Speaker 9: let's all Jay. Yeah, my bad. I don't know what
Speaker 9: happened earlier.
Speaker 4: Because I got booted out as soon as I answered
Speaker 4: I asked my question.
Speaker 14: But all right, can I want to go? I want
Speaker 14: to ask the.
Speaker 9: Question real quick, okay, and make it quick. Come on, yeah,
Speaker 9: go real quick.
Speaker 24: I know I started as a Protestant, and I'm looking
Speaker 24: into the Orthodox Faith because I finally looked into early
Speaker 24: Church history.
Speaker 4: And saw my beliefs like fold before my eyes. So
Speaker 4: I'm in shocked right now.
Speaker 24: But I kind of want to ask, real quick, if
Speaker 24: you can start all over in your journey and and
Speaker 24: learn Orthodox faith.
Speaker 4: But what would you do from the very beginning. You
Speaker 4: don't have to go on like a long like like
Speaker 4: right away read the Early Church.
Speaker 9: Father'll take my time and not rush into it. Start
Speaker 9: by reading Athanacious. Start by reading