WEBVTT 1 00:00:01.760 --> 00:00:04.799 Jamie, could you make me I express? 2 00:00:04.919 --> 00:00:08.240 So okay, we're gonna open it up. Let's keep it 3 00:00:08.279 --> 00:00:08.919 on topic. 4 00:00:09.720 --> 00:00:15.000 One plus one plus one equal free icons are Ideala, Tree, Jay, 5 00:00:15.320 --> 00:00:16.960 j but Jay, can I talk? 6 00:00:17.480 --> 00:00:18.120 But it wasn't. 7 00:00:18.160 --> 00:00:20.519 Next, cathod draf God is real? 8 00:00:20.559 --> 00:00:20.760 Wife? 9 00:00:20.760 --> 00:00:24.160 Does he allow evil? Why do you pray to dead people? 10 00:00:24.440 --> 00:00:27.719 Traditions of men? It's a no brainer. You're such a 11 00:00:27.800 --> 00:00:29.440 tyrannical rainer. 12 00:00:35.000 --> 00:00:36.399 Is this your first. 13 00:00:36.119 --> 00:00:38.399 Time on the in or wesh? 14 00:00:39.039 --> 00:00:41.799 I need a changer, Joe can't think of. 15 00:00:41.679 --> 00:00:43.359 These loads your slow boys? 16 00:00:44.920 --> 00:00:48.240 Is this your first time on the in or wesh? 17 00:00:48.920 --> 00:00:49.840 I need to changer? 18 00:00:50.079 --> 00:00:50.359 Joe? 19 00:00:50.840 --> 00:00:52.479 Was that an uncreative foot part? 20 00:00:53.240 --> 00:00:54.079 Unmute, dude? 21 00:00:54.520 --> 00:00:55.880 Stop repeating my name? 22 00:00:56.079 --> 00:00:56.399 Dude? 23 00:00:56.520 --> 00:01:00.119 You Goober's callin or I'll boot you. Where did you 24 00:01:00.200 --> 00:01:03.600 get the Bible from? Have you read the Canons of Franzia? 25 00:01:04.400 --> 00:01:05.519 What are you Catholic? 26 00:01:05.799 --> 00:01:06.719 Are you promisants? 27 00:01:06.879 --> 00:01:09.000 I'm not trying to be mean, but do you have 28 00:01:09.079 --> 00:01:10.439 an actual argument? 29 00:01:10.719 --> 00:01:13.280 There is only one church? You are in a cult. 30 00:01:13.799 --> 00:01:16.439 You're a goblin, a demon, a boomer? 31 00:01:18.159 --> 00:01:18.879 Quick question? 32 00:01:20.000 --> 00:01:22.959 Do we have any diddyback venerators in the chat? 33 00:01:23.560 --> 00:01:26.079 How is this your first time on. 34 00:01:26.239 --> 00:01:31.799 Being or well, I need a chance take it these loads? 35 00:01:31.840 --> 00:01:32.879 You're slow boys? 36 00:01:33.120 --> 00:01:34.120 Are you? 37 00:01:34.400 --> 00:01:37.400 Is this your first time momby wes? 38 00:01:38.480 --> 00:01:41.719 I need a If you're a wine on front of 39 00:01:41.760 --> 00:01:42.640 the line. 40 00:01:42.680 --> 00:01:54.840 I'm mute, dude, what is your epistemic justification? 41 00:01:55.799 --> 00:01:58.519 That argument is circular and you are refuted. 42 00:02:00.439 --> 00:02:04.040 Is this your first time on me? Or where shay 43 00:02:04.640 --> 00:02:07.519 I need a show? Can't take these littles. 44 00:02:07.599 --> 00:02:12.080 You're snow boying. Is this your first time on me? 45 00:02:12.719 --> 00:02:16.639 Or where I need to change your show? If you're 46 00:02:16.680 --> 00:02:18.639 a lie in front of the lie. 47 00:02:18.719 --> 00:02:49.120 On mute, dude, it's that time to get you're freaking 48 00:02:49.240 --> 00:02:52.479 Oh wait, that's the wrong time. That's not this time? 49 00:02:53.159 --> 00:02:53.680 Is this time? 50 00:02:59.199 --> 00:03:02.840 So where do we get the Bible from? Did you 51 00:03:02.919 --> 00:03:07.439 even read the cannons? There is only one charge. You 52 00:03:07.520 --> 00:03:08.840 are in an occult. 53 00:03:09.199 --> 00:03:12.159 You're a gobbling a demon, a bull merchard. 54 00:03:12.360 --> 00:03:13.080 You saw me? 55 00:03:13.840 --> 00:03:14.800 I'm your dude? 56 00:03:15.800 --> 00:03:19.439 Is this your personal webs? 57 00:03:20.000 --> 00:03:22.599 I need a gender jew can't take it. 58 00:03:22.919 --> 00:03:23.800 He's little to your. 59 00:03:24.240 --> 00:03:29.280 Boys on your dude, I want us one plus one 60 00:03:29.319 --> 00:03:30.280 equal free. 61 00:03:31.639 --> 00:03:33.080 It comes out the dollar tree. 62 00:03:34.960 --> 00:03:35.800 Why do you pray? 63 00:03:35.879 --> 00:03:37.159 Eat the dead people? 64 00:03:37.719 --> 00:03:49.840 The traditions madden you? Heretic on your fude, is this 65 00:03:50.000 --> 00:03:52.800 your per webs shack. 66 00:03:53.840 --> 00:03:56.439 I need a gender jew can't take it. 67 00:03:56.759 --> 00:03:57.599 He's little to your. 68 00:03:58.080 --> 00:04:00.479 Boys, I'm your dude. 69 00:04:02.439 --> 00:04:04.120 What's your pistemic justification? 70 00:04:05.280 --> 00:04:07.000 Welcome in circular. 71 00:04:14.759 --> 00:04:36.639 To Jamie. 72 00:04:42.439 --> 00:04:47.040 At the monkey. You find off in that. 73 00:04:49.240 --> 00:04:52.879 What you're doing up there? Why you scared? 74 00:04:53.639 --> 00:04:55.879 Why you run it roun. 75 00:04:55.879 --> 00:04:57.720 Themy bab. 76 00:04:59.079 --> 00:05:02.800 You ran my manto and from me? 77 00:05:07.879 --> 00:05:11.480 Then till the monkey. 78 00:05:13.160 --> 00:05:16.120 Like the female monkeys. 79 00:05:15.639 --> 00:05:20.199 With the bananas between the trees, hanging. 80 00:05:20.040 --> 00:05:36.959 Down upside down, that's a smile. SI, tell the monkey 81 00:05:37.279 --> 00:05:38.639 what you doing to me? 82 00:05:39.480 --> 00:05:44.160 Till it to a monkey, till a mallcky. 83 00:06:12.319 --> 00:06:28.560 Isn't this the trump downs? What's due to me? 84 00:06:41.439 --> 00:06:42.079 That's true? 85 00:06:43.759 --> 00:06:47.319 The road takes you. Chevy is ready to dar No, 86 00:06:49.160 --> 00:06:55.519 can't let advertisements ruined the beauty. Welcome everybody. It's that time. 87 00:06:56.519 --> 00:07:01.240 It's that time to get down and Sneezy. We're talking 88 00:07:01.240 --> 00:07:09.360 about all of the dang seven Dwarfs. Sneezy Snorty y'all, 89 00:07:09.519 --> 00:07:11.839 y'all know about Snorty the dwarf. He was over there 90 00:07:12.000 --> 00:07:16.879 doing a little of that cocaine. Little little snorty dwarf, 91 00:07:19.319 --> 00:07:24.879 like the O Bonn says, there was skanky. He was 92 00:07:24.959 --> 00:07:29.480 one of the Dwarfs. He was a nasty, just trashy kid, 93 00:07:29.800 --> 00:07:32.480 grew up in a trailer, drew up, he grew up 94 00:07:32.480 --> 00:07:35.439 in a living in out of a bus, and then 95 00:07:35.480 --> 00:07:39.680 got recruited into the Dwarf. In the Dwarf. Ops, that 96 00:07:39.959 --> 00:07:44.879 was Skanky the Dwarf. There was Snorty, Sneezy Snorty was 97 00:07:44.879 --> 00:07:49.720 all about cocaine. Skanky slutty the Dwarf. He was all 98 00:07:49.759 --> 00:07:58.519 about hoeing around town. So the allergies are turned up 99 00:07:58.560 --> 00:08:00.759 to eleven. I'm sorry, but you know, it's just how 100 00:08:00.800 --> 00:08:07.759 it is living down here in Cuba, down here with 101 00:08:07.879 --> 00:08:14.639 Operation Mongoose, Operation Mongoose of the CIA's y'all heard of that. 102 00:08:16.600 --> 00:08:20.519 Welcome everybody, It's open for him today. I wanted to 103 00:08:20.639 --> 00:08:23.560 try to try a different title. We'll see what happens. 104 00:08:23.959 --> 00:08:29.720 Protestantism is false. Prove me wrong, like like Steve Crowder 105 00:08:29.879 --> 00:08:33.480 style where you got to prove me wrong, Jay finally 106 00:08:33.559 --> 00:08:36.440 lost it. I don't want people like I do the 107 00:08:36.559 --> 00:08:39.240 same nonsense every time I'm sitting in front of this 108 00:08:39.399 --> 00:08:43.000 computer screen, every time I'm lobstream, and it's the same nonsense. 109 00:08:43.759 --> 00:08:45.600 You would think you guys would know it by now. 110 00:08:49.080 --> 00:08:51.240 H Brosey ten dollars. Have you seen what rid von 111 00:08:51.320 --> 00:08:54.000 AP's been posting? Yeah, I just DMed him. I DMed 112 00:08:54.080 --> 00:08:56.639 him the other day. I mean, I don't know what 113 00:08:57.399 --> 00:09:01.200 to say. I mean, what do you want me to do? 114 00:09:01.559 --> 00:09:04.440 I mean, I've offered to debate. I've offered to discuss 115 00:09:04.480 --> 00:09:11.679 the topics. I mean, anybody who wants to learn or 116 00:09:12.240 --> 00:09:15.519 whatever could always hop on these streams. Is very easy 117 00:09:15.600 --> 00:09:17.759 to do. They can come over here if they want to. 118 00:09:21.000 --> 00:09:23.320 When you got a debate, Pastor Randy Balls bread in 119 00:09:23.399 --> 00:09:27.519 ten dollars, that's one debate. I am scared of. People say, who, 120 00:09:27.720 --> 00:09:29.240 why are you scared of debate? So and so I'm 121 00:09:29.279 --> 00:09:32.000 not scared of debate anybody except for Pastor Randy Balls. 122 00:09:34.240 --> 00:09:36.799 Rozie says. I understand he's new, everybody has baggage, but 123 00:09:37.000 --> 00:09:39.759 he sounded like a subverter. To be honest, he needs 124 00:09:39.840 --> 00:09:43.200 to be checked. I mean, if he keeps pushing you know, 125 00:09:43.519 --> 00:09:46.399 LPTA for us and that kind of stuff, then yeah, 126 00:09:46.720 --> 00:09:55.799 I mean it's unfortunate, but we'll see Kyle Kosha twenty bucks. Respectfully, 127 00:09:55.840 --> 00:10:00.919 how is Christianity the One True Faith? Which brand of Christianity? Well, 128 00:10:01.000 --> 00:10:05.799 I mean the fact that people disagree doesn't prove or 129 00:10:05.879 --> 00:10:13.840 disprove anything. Every position out there is going to have 130 00:10:13.919 --> 00:10:17.399 people within it or adjacent to it that disagree with it. 131 00:10:18.159 --> 00:10:23.000 But people mistake disagreements and debate, with the truth itself 132 00:10:23.159 --> 00:10:29.600 being unknowable. Which brand of Christianity is a correct one? Well, 133 00:10:29.639 --> 00:10:31.759 you're going to have to spend some time and learn 134 00:10:31.799 --> 00:10:35.600 about it, because there's no other way really to deal 135 00:10:35.679 --> 00:10:40.399 with the competing claims. But just because there's competing claims 136 00:10:41.080 --> 00:10:45.080 doesn't invalidate the system itself. Otherwise every system would be 137 00:10:45.120 --> 00:10:49.919 invalidated because everybody has competing claims. How can I If 138 00:10:50.000 --> 00:10:52.200 I can't trust mainstream media, why would I trust two 139 00:10:52.200 --> 00:10:56.039 thousand year old texts? Well, that's a false equivalence. The 140 00:10:56.120 --> 00:10:59.919 fact that something old doesn't necessarily mean it's true or false. 141 00:11:01.360 --> 00:11:08.279 But mainstream media has a repeated record of being demonstrably false, 142 00:11:08.960 --> 00:11:12.720 So I would just say those are false equivalences. But again, 143 00:11:13.759 --> 00:11:16.720 I make the argument, if you're a skeptic, skepticism is 144 00:11:16.759 --> 00:11:20.080 self refuting, all right, And if that's self refuting, then 145 00:11:20.559 --> 00:11:23.720 what are the options for non skeptical positions? And that's 146 00:11:23.759 --> 00:11:27.399 what moves us into tags, what moves us into arguments 147 00:11:27.440 --> 00:11:31.080 for the positions that we have. So if there's a 148 00:11:31.159 --> 00:11:36.279 better position, then somebody needs to come argue those positions. 149 00:11:37.519 --> 00:11:39.759 But Kyle, you're welcome to call in. It's open for him. 150 00:11:40.399 --> 00:11:43.320 We got already about five or six people in line. 151 00:11:44.200 --> 00:11:47.960 The link is in the chat. It's also in the 152 00:11:47.960 --> 00:11:52.759 show description. You can call in to debate or ask 153 00:11:52.919 --> 00:11:59.000 questions right here. Today. I thought I saw gigantic Protestant 154 00:11:59.039 --> 00:12:04.879 profiles everywhere and just mega followings of Protestant thought leaders 155 00:12:05.000 --> 00:12:07.879 or whatever they are. So I thought, you know, we 156 00:12:07.960 --> 00:12:11.639 spent so much time debating Roman Catholics and Romanclachs are 157 00:12:11.639 --> 00:12:14.559 welcome calling today too. I don't care. So it's still 158 00:12:14.639 --> 00:12:17.919 somewhat open. But I'm just trying out a different headline, 159 00:12:17.960 --> 00:12:20.639 a different title to refute. See if you can get 160 00:12:20.639 --> 00:12:24.559 some of these Protestants in here, because multiple Protestants have 161 00:12:24.639 --> 00:12:29.759 made videos about me this week. So JW two dollars 162 00:12:29.879 --> 00:12:32.879 debate n JF on the role of geopolitics in the Vatican. 163 00:12:33.559 --> 00:12:35.120 I mean, I heard a clip of him the other 164 00:12:35.200 --> 00:12:41.639 day admitting that the geopolitical elements have subverted the Catholic Church, 165 00:12:41.840 --> 00:12:45.960 so it's difficult to defend it is what he said. 166 00:12:46.600 --> 00:12:47.960 I don't know if he's an old clipper or a 167 00:12:48.000 --> 00:12:51.200 new clip or what. But I don't know that he 168 00:12:51.240 --> 00:12:55.279 wants to have that debate. J Man ten dollars, have 169 00:12:55.360 --> 00:12:59.600 a blessed lint. Keep fighting. Thank you, Jordaane Jordaan ten Bucks. 170 00:13:01.080 --> 00:13:05.279 You must forsake Yakubian punctuality. Yet today I was on 171 00:13:05.399 --> 00:13:09.679 time and punctual. But that's because of yakub Warpick Gaming. 172 00:13:09.960 --> 00:13:12.639 Shout out to Warpick Gaming. He hopped in here, became 173 00:13:12.679 --> 00:13:16.600 a member. Remember, you can become a member through YouTube 174 00:13:16.679 --> 00:13:18.720 or through the website as well. You can go to 175 00:13:18.759 --> 00:13:21.559 the Jaysonnalysis website and sign up. Become a member, get 176 00:13:21.639 --> 00:13:27.200 access to all the last ten years of archived lectures, talks, podcasts, interviews, 177 00:13:27.759 --> 00:13:33.720 book reviews, deep geopolitical conspiratorial true conspiratorial analysis where we 178 00:13:33.799 --> 00:13:39.240 go into espionage and the real that's real conspiracy, right conspiracy. 179 00:13:39.320 --> 00:13:44.919 That's all this like cornball shit like Tartaria and stuff 180 00:13:44.919 --> 00:13:50.000 like that. That's that's fake stuff. Real conspiracy is James 181 00:13:50.080 --> 00:13:54.000 Jesus Angleton and backdoor channels to foreign nations and JFK. 182 00:13:54.279 --> 00:14:00.919 That's real conspiracy. Austin Austin Kyle Bucks, thank you, for 183 00:14:00.960 --> 00:14:02.679 all your content, Jay, you help me find in the 184 00:14:02.720 --> 00:14:06.120 way to the orthoxy. Appreciate that, dude, Zach fifteen dollars, 185 00:14:06.159 --> 00:14:08.399 I appreciate all your work. Are we going to get 186 00:14:08.440 --> 00:14:11.840 a Sam Shumun discussion anytime soon? I don't know. 187 00:14:12.039 --> 00:14:12.399 I mean. 188 00:14:14.200 --> 00:14:21.480 Again, we're still discussing the possibility of doing rival presentations 189 00:14:21.559 --> 00:14:27.200 on Sam's channel between me and Albrecht, So I don't 190 00:14:27.200 --> 00:14:28.799 know if that's gonna happen or when that's going to happen, 191 00:14:28.879 --> 00:14:33.200 but it's always they're the possibilities there. Nikki d what's up? 192 00:14:33.279 --> 00:14:33.399 Man? 193 00:14:40.799 --> 00:14:43.080 If you guys would hit like and share, what's up? 194 00:14:43.159 --> 00:14:46.200 Nikki dep I'm you, hey, Jake. 195 00:14:47.039 --> 00:14:50.080 Yeah, I just want to say that that the status 196 00:14:50.159 --> 00:14:58.000 quo that Protestants enable is perfection. What I just want 197 00:14:58.039 --> 00:15:00.799 to say, the status quo Protestants enable is perfection. 198 00:15:01.360 --> 00:15:04.480 You know that what does that matter? What does that mean? 199 00:15:04.879 --> 00:15:06.360 I mean, I mean whole. 200 00:15:06.240 --> 00:15:10.200 White like snow white, whole white and the seven Blood 201 00:15:10.360 --> 00:15:16.440 Diamond Dwarfs like the Protestants by their Salvationist theology, you know, 202 00:15:16.559 --> 00:15:19.960 they they are in denial that a problem exists and 203 00:15:20.120 --> 00:15:23.240 they can just ask for forgiveness on their deathbat about it. 204 00:15:23.399 --> 00:15:23.559 You know. 205 00:15:26.879 --> 00:15:32.559 Yeah, that's a difficulty because there's not really a change 206 00:15:32.799 --> 00:15:46.200 that's required in the person ocean apg man, what's up, good, 207 00:15:46.279 --> 00:15:53.679 I'm you? Oh wait hello, hey, right, sorry, quick question. 208 00:15:54.600 --> 00:15:57.919 So what's the difference of Like, where do you draw 209 00:15:57.960 --> 00:16:03.000 the line between continue with the Old Testament and judea isa? 210 00:16:04.799 --> 00:16:07.320 Well, I think the New Testament lays down some guidelines 211 00:16:07.399 --> 00:16:10.279 and then the rest of the Apostolic tradition would be 212 00:16:10.320 --> 00:16:13.080 the other guidelines. So the guidance of the church as 213 00:16:13.159 --> 00:16:17.480 the established authority being via Apostolic succession, the College of 214 00:16:17.480 --> 00:16:20.480 the Apostles that Jesus set up, they would be able 215 00:16:20.559 --> 00:16:23.679 to make further decisions as you see for example in 216 00:16:23.720 --> 00:16:27.399 the quarter Disseminarian controversy in the second third century, the 217 00:16:27.519 --> 00:16:29.840 Nicene Council ruling on some of these things as to 218 00:16:29.960 --> 00:16:32.440 what's appropriate and not appropriate in terms of the Old Testament. 219 00:16:32.879 --> 00:16:35.200 So it's a twofold thing between what's in the New 220 00:16:35.279 --> 00:16:40.120 Testament and what the Apostolic tradition and the Apsoltic succession rules. 221 00:16:41.639 --> 00:16:47.039 Okay, so basically, well, correct me if I'm wrong. But 222 00:16:47.200 --> 00:16:49.960 what I'm kind of hearing is that the way to 223 00:16:50.600 --> 00:16:54.679 so the difference is it's kind of close, like they're 224 00:16:54.799 --> 00:16:59.159 pretty related. And the only way to avoid falling into 225 00:16:59.360 --> 00:17:03.200 like judaizing you hatra rely in the church, is that 226 00:17:03.279 --> 00:17:04.039 what you're kind of saying. 227 00:17:06.400 --> 00:17:08.960 The principles are laid down in the New Testament in 228 00:17:09.160 --> 00:17:13.119 general as to what things are fulfilled and which things 229 00:17:13.200 --> 00:17:17.480 are still quote binding. But Jesus gave the apostles the 230 00:17:17.559 --> 00:17:20.759 authority to bind and to loose and to make those decisions, 231 00:17:21.240 --> 00:17:24.160 and their successors have that same authority to bind and 232 00:17:24.279 --> 00:17:27.640 to loose, So that means the ability to decide what 233 00:17:27.839 --> 00:17:31.000 things are normative, for example, for gentiles to come into 234 00:17:31.039 --> 00:17:33.960 the church. And if you look at Acts fifteen, that's 235 00:17:34.000 --> 00:17:36.480 an example of that binding and loosing power. Where the 236 00:17:36.519 --> 00:17:39.559 apostles get together they look at the Covenant of Noah 237 00:17:39.720 --> 00:17:41.799 and they reason that if Noah was able to be 238 00:17:41.880 --> 00:17:46.920 made righteous through the Noeic Covenant, then the expectation should 239 00:17:46.960 --> 00:17:49.960 be no more for gentiles that convert to the Church. 240 00:17:50.680 --> 00:17:55.079 And that same principle is what you see in the first, second, 241 00:17:55.119 --> 00:17:58.359 and third century when the Church has to make similar 242 00:17:58.400 --> 00:17:59.279 types of decisions. 243 00:18:00.000 --> 00:18:04.640 Okay, thank you, yes, that was a good question. 244 00:18:10.039 --> 00:18:17.000 Quell quell unbreller, and then we'll go to Erwan. 245 00:18:28.960 --> 00:18:29.000 H. 246 00:18:29.079 --> 00:18:32.079 Brozy sends five bucks and says, lmfao that dude started 247 00:18:32.160 --> 00:18:34.839 off son it's goods so as as f but he 248 00:18:34.920 --> 00:18:36.880 redeemed himself. He made a decent point. Yeah, I think 249 00:18:36.960 --> 00:18:39.839 so cool. A two dollars. I appreciate your work bringing 250 00:18:39.880 --> 00:18:43.480 people to the truth. Thank you, man, appreciate that. Theosis 251 00:18:44.599 --> 00:18:50.599 Pilgrim ten dollars. You There. Genesis Creation Early Man is 252 00:18:50.680 --> 00:18:51.200 back in print. 253 00:18:51.279 --> 00:18:51.680 Yes, I know. 254 00:18:51.759 --> 00:18:55.079 I think I tweeted about it or talked about it 255 00:18:55.200 --> 00:18:59.799 on a recent stream. Erwan, you want to I'm mute, Hey. 256 00:18:59.720 --> 00:19:02.359 Jay, I just had a question, who do you think 257 00:19:02.440 --> 00:19:06.960 would win in a fight between Yakub and Messiah and sasquestion. 258 00:19:09.119 --> 00:19:16.200 I'm wondering if Yakoub might actually be incarnate as Messiah 259 00:19:16.279 --> 00:19:24.799 been Sasquatch. So that's actually a trick question, Joshua. Theosis 260 00:19:24.839 --> 00:19:27.200 Pilgrim said that Early Genesis Creation, Early Man, my father 261 00:19:27.240 --> 00:19:29.720 siprom Ros is back in print. It's a hardcover, good quality. 262 00:19:29.960 --> 00:19:32.720 I laugh pretty hard at Messiah and Sasquatch. Well, I 263 00:19:33.319 --> 00:19:37.880 couldn't believe that one of the Mormon prophets claims that 264 00:19:38.920 --> 00:19:41.720 Sasquatch is real and it's Kane. We went and looked 265 00:19:41.759 --> 00:19:43.559 it up Joshua and mute, what's up? 266 00:19:43.599 --> 00:19:43.720 Man? 267 00:19:44.759 --> 00:19:46.920 Yeah, what's happened? I just have one question. Do you 268 00:19:47.000 --> 00:19:49.759 think Protestants are going to Hell or not? 269 00:19:50.920 --> 00:19:53.359 I mean, I don't judge people on an individual basis, 270 00:19:53.799 --> 00:19:57.880 but I judge the public confession of their groups. So 271 00:19:58.079 --> 00:20:01.000 this is this is what's called in the tradition of 272 00:20:01.519 --> 00:20:06.559 legal theory jurisprudence, you know, a public judgment. So public 273 00:20:06.640 --> 00:20:09.960 judgment means I'm judging the profession of that group and 274 00:20:10.079 --> 00:20:12.119 what they stand for. It doesn't mean that I know 275 00:20:12.279 --> 00:20:15.279 the eternal destiny of each of those persons. But Protestantism 276 00:20:15.559 --> 00:20:19.400 is really just a confluence of almost all of the 277 00:20:19.519 --> 00:20:23.680 ancient heresies of the first six seventh centuries, all right. 278 00:20:23.880 --> 00:20:31.599 I mean, I'm just thinking more and more about how Americanists, 279 00:20:31.759 --> 00:20:35.400 you know, Protestanism is and just how you know, it's 280 00:20:35.599 --> 00:20:38.440 really just a do it yourself. I don't need anyone else, 281 00:20:38.480 --> 00:20:41.200 I don't need anything else. And you see all of 282 00:20:41.240 --> 00:20:45.599 these you know, influencers with all of these you know, 283 00:20:45.759 --> 00:20:49.920 millions of people, and it's just like, how do how 284 00:20:49.960 --> 00:20:52.640 do people? Does it just never occur to anybody that 285 00:20:54.160 --> 00:21:01.519 there's a history to all this stuff. So guys remember 286 00:21:01.680 --> 00:21:04.160 looking for people who would like to discuss the topics 287 00:21:04.240 --> 00:21:09.440 as listed, particularly Protestantism, but it's also open to Catholics, Muslims, whoever. 288 00:21:10.160 --> 00:21:24.799 Quelln Rayler, Okay, I'm mute. 289 00:21:26.160 --> 00:21:28.960 Yeah, I was just went to say anyway, my question 290 00:21:29.079 --> 00:21:33.440 is related to eschatology. You know how like the institution 291 00:21:33.559 --> 00:21:35.880 of meat, right, God instituted the eating of meat, and 292 00:21:36.079 --> 00:21:39.599 after price res Russian, he ate a fish. So do 293 00:21:39.640 --> 00:21:41.880 you think that in the Esketon, since there's no death, 294 00:21:41.960 --> 00:21:42.920 how are we gonna eat fish? 295 00:21:42.960 --> 00:21:46.920 And like meat and stuff, our bodies won't need that 296 00:21:47.079 --> 00:21:49.480 type of sustenance. I think he does it as a 297 00:21:50.279 --> 00:21:53.480 condescension to show that it's the same body as before. 298 00:21:54.200 --> 00:21:56.240 I don't think he did it because his body needed 299 00:21:56.279 --> 00:21:59.720 that sustenance. And in the Esketon, our bodies will not 300 00:22:00.079 --> 00:22:02.640 need the type of sustenance that we need now. It'll 301 00:22:02.680 --> 00:22:05.359 be a glorified body. So I don't think there will 302 00:22:05.400 --> 00:22:07.799 be eating of meat now, Carl Minger, it won't be necessary. 303 00:22:15.759 --> 00:22:20.400 Aka, yes, sir, Hey, I was listening to your Mormon 304 00:22:20.440 --> 00:22:23.680 stream the other day, and I was born and raised Mormon. 305 00:22:24.680 --> 00:22:27.359 I actually grew up believing that Gane was Sasquatch. 306 00:22:27.480 --> 00:22:32.759 Oh really, Yeah, so this is kind of widely believed. 307 00:22:32.759 --> 00:22:34.240 There are just a few people believe it. 308 00:22:35.559 --> 00:22:38.960 I think it's mainly with the older generation. I was 309 00:22:39.039 --> 00:22:41.960 told this by my dad, who was a boomer. He 310 00:22:42.119 --> 00:22:44.880 converted when he was in his early twenties. 311 00:22:46.559 --> 00:22:49.160 Wow. Well, so what led you out of Mormonism? 312 00:22:51.680 --> 00:22:55.160 Well, a lot of the history and then it just 313 00:22:55.319 --> 00:22:57.799 it just led me to atheism because they believe in 314 00:22:57.839 --> 00:23:01.319 they believe in the name, it's a physical body that 315 00:23:01.400 --> 00:23:02.160 lives on a planet. 316 00:23:03.920 --> 00:23:06.279 I'm sorry the ad popped on. They believe in what 317 00:23:06.400 --> 00:23:07.359 can you repeat what you said? 318 00:23:08.720 --> 00:23:11.359 They believe in a god that has a body that 319 00:23:11.480 --> 00:23:13.319 lives out and on a planet. 320 00:23:13.680 --> 00:23:17.039 Yeah, right, Like it's like an alien god. And I 321 00:23:17.240 --> 00:23:20.680 just kind of completely Yeah, it's a it's a it's 322 00:23:20.799 --> 00:23:26.079 like it's like scientology, like it's a sci fi space opera. 323 00:23:27.599 --> 00:23:32.000 Yeah yeah yeah, And I mean and like Battles for Galactica. Yeah, 324 00:23:32.119 --> 00:23:33.319 that's something my dad always told me. 325 00:23:33.359 --> 00:23:35.640 He's like, yeah, that's right in my Mormons exactly. 326 00:23:35.720 --> 00:23:37.400 Yeah. We covered that the other day on that stream 327 00:23:37.480 --> 00:23:41.119 because Lords of Colob, that's a Mormon thing, right Colob. 328 00:23:42.240 --> 00:23:46.200 Yeah, Yeah, they'd have hymns to uh p were to 329 00:23:46.279 --> 00:23:47.400 hide to Colob. 330 00:23:50.200 --> 00:23:52.519 Well, you know anything else you want to leave us with. 331 00:23:52.559 --> 00:23:53.160 I appreciate that. 332 00:23:55.359 --> 00:23:57.839 It led me into atheism for a good fifteen years, 333 00:23:57.960 --> 00:23:59.839 and then I found the Orthodox Church and I was 334 00:24:00.119 --> 00:24:02.079 seeing into the church in January. 335 00:24:02.400 --> 00:24:04.720 Oh awesome, man, many years. Do you appreciate that? Good 336 00:24:04.759 --> 00:24:08.400 to hear it? Yeah? I think it was gonna if 337 00:24:08.440 --> 00:24:13.440 I was gonna choose, you know, maybe Star Wars before 338 00:24:13.519 --> 00:24:16.720 Disney got a hold of it. Maybe believe believe in 339 00:24:16.759 --> 00:24:18.039 that sci fi universe. 340 00:24:18.240 --> 00:24:18.599 I don't know. 341 00:24:18.680 --> 00:24:20.680 I'm trying to think of which sci fi universe I 342 00:24:20.799 --> 00:24:24.720 want to live there. Uh But Orson Scott Card is 343 00:24:24.799 --> 00:24:27.400 a Mormon sci fi writer, so that makes sense too, 344 00:24:27.480 --> 00:24:32.319 because he writes like in his Enders Game and all that, 345 00:24:32.559 --> 00:24:35.799 like the not the planets are different religions. So there's 346 00:24:35.839 --> 00:24:39.119 a Catholic planet, there's a Mormon planet, and a Protestant planet. 347 00:24:40.240 --> 00:24:49.480 If I remember correctly, Jennifer, the Lords sounds like a 348 00:24:49.599 --> 00:24:52.160 metal like a death metal man to Lords of Kolob. 349 00:24:56.319 --> 00:24:59.839 What's up, Jeffer, Yes, ma'am, I was. 350 00:25:00.000 --> 00:25:02.799 I want to ask about some of your articulations of 351 00:25:03.039 --> 00:25:04.839 the monarchical trinitarian you. 352 00:25:06.319 --> 00:25:09.799 So when you describe the difference between the Father, Sun. 353 00:25:09.640 --> 00:25:12.839 Holy Spirit, as the Father is like the source or 354 00:25:13.359 --> 00:25:15.519 you know, the fount or give heard a couple of 355 00:25:15.519 --> 00:25:19.759 different words, how would you articulate the difference between his 356 00:25:20.079 --> 00:25:23.160 being the source of self existence and obviously the Sun 357 00:25:23.240 --> 00:25:25.119 and Spirit also being uncreated. 358 00:25:25.720 --> 00:25:26.799 What is the difference between that? 359 00:25:28.160 --> 00:25:31.839 Because it's an eternal generation and any internal spiration, so 360 00:25:32.400 --> 00:25:35.039 it's not a cause in a temporal sense or the 361 00:25:35.079 --> 00:25:38.599 way that creatures are caused. The more of the Mormons 362 00:25:38.640 --> 00:25:42.880 that the Aryans raise this objection to Saint Athanasius when 363 00:25:42.920 --> 00:25:45.559 they when the Cappadocians, or when he talked about cause 364 00:25:46.200 --> 00:25:48.960 the Eunomians to the Cappadocians, and the Arians to Athanasius, 365 00:25:49.000 --> 00:25:54.119 they would say, well, cause implies temporal change and coming 366 00:25:54.200 --> 00:25:56.799 into being when you were not. And the answer is 367 00:25:56.880 --> 00:26:00.839 that cause is used in an analogical sense of an 368 00:26:00.920 --> 00:26:04.599 eternal causing. So it's an eternal causing and coming forth. 369 00:26:04.680 --> 00:26:08.119 It's not a beginning with a temporal sequence of something 370 00:26:08.200 --> 00:26:11.000 coming to be. That's why the Son is eternally begotten 371 00:26:11.160 --> 00:26:14.440 and eternally generated of the Father. In fact, this is 372 00:26:14.559 --> 00:26:18.599 not just my quote monarchical trinitarianism. It's what the original 373 00:26:18.720 --> 00:26:22.960 Nicene Creed says, following the theology of Athanasius, that the 374 00:26:23.079 --> 00:26:26.839 Father is the eternal source of the eternally begotten Son, 375 00:26:27.400 --> 00:26:30.640 and then the Kappadocians qualify that and make it more 376 00:26:30.680 --> 00:26:35.240 specific in their writings to specify that the father's the 377 00:26:35.359 --> 00:26:38.440 soul cause Soli, and then the son and the Spirit 378 00:26:38.480 --> 00:26:43.640 are differentiated by their respective hypostetic properties, the son to 379 00:26:44.039 --> 00:26:46.279 being generated, the spirit proceeding. 380 00:26:48.960 --> 00:26:51.599 So could I think of it sort of like how 381 00:26:52.200 --> 00:26:56.440 when Christ becomes incarnate in the flesh, he self limits himself. 382 00:26:56.480 --> 00:26:59.079 It's not that he lacks the power when he's human 383 00:26:59.680 --> 00:27:02.480 to do the things that are proper to God. It's 384 00:27:02.799 --> 00:27:07.559 just sort of the place that is appropriate for the son. 385 00:27:08.160 --> 00:27:10.839 So it's not that the spirit or the son necessarily 386 00:27:11.000 --> 00:27:13.640 lacks the power to be self existent. 387 00:27:13.720 --> 00:27:17.079 It's just the order that is the most. 388 00:27:18.359 --> 00:27:20.519 I don't know how to if you look at So 389 00:27:20.680 --> 00:27:24.519 this is a Muslim argument. It's called the Eunomian premise, 390 00:27:24.599 --> 00:27:27.599 and the argument is that in order to be divine, 391 00:27:27.720 --> 00:27:31.839 you must have the characteristic of being self existing, or 392 00:27:31.920 --> 00:27:35.880 to be assay, And that's actually a logical fallacy. There's 393 00:27:35.920 --> 00:27:38.880 nothing about being amongst the class of things that are 394 00:27:38.920 --> 00:27:43.799 quote divine or uncreated that necessitates being self existent, because 395 00:27:43.880 --> 00:27:47.440 for us, being self existent is part of what we 396 00:27:47.599 --> 00:27:49.359 mean when we pick out the person of the father. 397 00:27:49.880 --> 00:27:53.279 The father alone is the self existent one, or the 398 00:27:53.440 --> 00:27:56.799 unoriginate one, according to the Kappadocians. But the fact that 399 00:27:56.880 --> 00:27:59.559 he generates a son and generates a spirit who lack 400 00:27:59.680 --> 00:28:03.720 that hypostatic property does not mean that they can't share 401 00:28:03.759 --> 00:28:06.319 or don't have the same nature. So just like a 402 00:28:06.440 --> 00:28:10.960 father begets a son, the son derives that nature from 403 00:28:11.039 --> 00:28:14.519 the father that begot him right in a human sense, 404 00:28:14.920 --> 00:28:17.359 but he doesn't have any less of the human nature 405 00:28:17.480 --> 00:28:20.400 because he lacks being the source or the origin of 406 00:28:20.519 --> 00:28:23.440 his nature. So in the same way, you would have 407 00:28:23.640 --> 00:28:30.079 to demonstrate that divinity somehow necessarily requires being awse to 408 00:28:30.279 --> 00:28:33.079 prove what's called the Unomian premise. And if you watch 409 00:28:33.240 --> 00:28:36.960 the way that doctor bo Branson critiques Jake the muslim 410 00:28:37.000 --> 00:28:39.960 Ata physician in their debate, is precisely upon this point. 411 00:28:40.359 --> 00:28:44.440 Another way to look at this is so, for example, 412 00:28:44.559 --> 00:28:49.160 we talk about carnivore and omnivore right to be amongst 413 00:28:49.200 --> 00:28:53.400 the class of things that are meat eaters. Omnivores are 414 00:28:53.480 --> 00:28:58.400 meat eaters, but they also eat other things, right, such 415 00:28:58.440 --> 00:29:02.000 as vegetables. Of wars do not eat vegetables, they only 416 00:29:02.079 --> 00:29:05.480 eat meat, But they're both amongst the class of things, 417 00:29:05.799 --> 00:29:09.799 right that are quote meat eaters. It's just that omnivores 418 00:29:09.880 --> 00:29:13.519 have more properties or attributes right that pick them out, 419 00:29:14.160 --> 00:29:17.519 But they're still all amongst the class that's more general 420 00:29:17.599 --> 00:29:20.799 of things called meat eaters. So do you see that 421 00:29:21.039 --> 00:29:24.160 lacking one of the properties does not mean that you're 422 00:29:24.200 --> 00:29:28.000 not amongst the same class. So just because spirit and 423 00:29:28.200 --> 00:29:32.079 son lack the property of being self existing, does not 424 00:29:32.279 --> 00:29:35.920 mean that they lack the divine nature. Because in our theology, 425 00:29:36.400 --> 00:29:39.799 self existing one or to be assay is particularly a 426 00:29:40.480 --> 00:29:43.119 property of the person of the father. It's related to 427 00:29:43.160 --> 00:29:47.640 the hypostatic properties, and hypocytic properties are not shared, okay, 428 00:29:47.839 --> 00:29:50.160 because that picks out the father as the soul cause 429 00:29:50.160 --> 00:29:52.880 of the fount, the unorriginal one, the self existing one. 430 00:29:55.359 --> 00:29:59.519 So being uncreated would be obviously all three of them. 431 00:30:00.480 --> 00:30:03.480 And then just because I guess my brain is stuck 432 00:30:03.519 --> 00:30:07.160 in this like temporal like time for like time matters 433 00:30:07.240 --> 00:30:10.599 to me because I'm in time rather than being you know. 434 00:30:10.680 --> 00:30:14.920 The eternal generation. It's just kind of hard to wrap 435 00:30:15.000 --> 00:30:15.480 my head around. 436 00:30:15.559 --> 00:30:17.720 But well, it is a mystery, right, It's a mystery 437 00:30:17.759 --> 00:30:20.039 that the Father has eternally generated to somebody who read 438 00:30:20.119 --> 00:30:22.559 John one, I mean John speaks in that way, right. 439 00:30:22.640 --> 00:30:25.000 He says that even when Jesus was amongst us, he 440 00:30:25.119 --> 00:30:26.960 was eternal, he was always in the bosom of the Father. 441 00:30:27.039 --> 00:30:29.160 He never left the bosom of the Father, even when 442 00:30:29.200 --> 00:30:29.880 he was incarnate. 443 00:30:30.559 --> 00:30:33.799 M okay, yeah, that's that's very helpful. 444 00:30:33.839 --> 00:30:34.240 Thank you for that. 445 00:30:35.160 --> 00:30:37.599 Do you mind if I ask about Hebrew six? 446 00:30:38.240 --> 00:30:38.279 No? 447 00:30:39.880 --> 00:30:43.240 Uh, so, I I guess I would still call it. 448 00:30:43.279 --> 00:30:45.599 I'm not I wouldn't probably wouldn't call myself a Protestant still, 449 00:30:45.599 --> 00:30:47.200 I've been an inquirer for a little while. 450 00:30:47.640 --> 00:30:51.960 But speaking about sort of the idea of you know, 451 00:30:52.039 --> 00:30:56.839 being eternally secure in Hebrew six, would this imply if 452 00:30:56.880 --> 00:31:01.599 it's not implying internal security, which probably doesn't as I'm 453 00:31:01.680 --> 00:31:02.799 reading it, you know more? 454 00:31:03.880 --> 00:31:06.680 Well, remember these are these are Christians that have converted, 455 00:31:06.799 --> 00:31:09.680 that have been baptized their Hebrews. So when Paul talks 456 00:31:09.720 --> 00:31:14.000 about being enlightened and tasting the gift, he's talking about 457 00:31:14.079 --> 00:31:17.880 baptism and Eucharist, and he's talking about becoming a partaker 458 00:31:17.920 --> 00:31:22.000 of the Spirit, and he says, you've already tasted of 459 00:31:22.240 --> 00:31:25.960 the age to come. Okay, that's not a false believer. 460 00:31:26.440 --> 00:31:29.400 That's somebody who's really participated in the grace and in 461 00:31:29.480 --> 00:31:32.720 the Covenant. Yeah, and there's a real possibility of being 462 00:31:32.839 --> 00:31:35.559 cut out of that covenant exactly the way he warns 463 00:31:36.079 --> 00:31:38.759 the church at Rome and Romans eleven. You guys can 464 00:31:38.799 --> 00:31:41.440 be cut out if you're unbelieving, if you're unfaithful, and 465 00:31:41.440 --> 00:31:42.680 if you're arrogant puffed up. 466 00:31:44.960 --> 00:31:47.960 So would this imply that if you are at that 467 00:31:48.119 --> 00:31:52.519 point where you have been baptized in, you've received the Eucharist, 468 00:31:52.599 --> 00:31:54.960 and then you fall away, that there is that there's 469 00:31:55.079 --> 00:31:57.960 no coming back from that, that you are. 470 00:31:57.960 --> 00:31:59.599 Crucifying Christ a second time. 471 00:31:59.759 --> 00:32:00.200 If you. 472 00:32:01.960 --> 00:32:02.960 Attempt to come back. 473 00:32:02.920 --> 00:32:05.480 Well, I think that that there's always the possibility of 474 00:32:05.519 --> 00:32:09.440 people repenting, and God's grace can reach anyone. But no, 475 00:32:09.599 --> 00:32:12.799 if you persist until the end, right, and you die 476 00:32:12.960 --> 00:32:16.400 without that, that's the hardening of the heart, That is 477 00:32:16.480 --> 00:32:18.720 the rejection of the spirit, right, that's the blasphem of 478 00:32:18.720 --> 00:32:21.480 the Holy Spirit. So you know the fact that people 479 00:32:21.680 --> 00:32:24.359 might fall away from Christianity and then come back to 480 00:32:24.480 --> 00:32:26.720 it later in life or something like that. I don't 481 00:32:26.759 --> 00:32:28.519 think that it's I don't think Paul is saying that 482 00:32:29.400 --> 00:32:32.720 a person who doubts and disbelieves can never come. 483 00:32:32.640 --> 00:32:36.640 Back again, Okay, and then just one of those things, 484 00:32:36.640 --> 00:32:42.039 if that's okay. I watched the video that you've recommended 485 00:32:42.079 --> 00:32:45.400 a couple of times from Orthodox Shahada about the continuity 486 00:32:45.480 --> 00:32:49.359 between the Old Testament and the Divine Liturgy, which was 487 00:32:49.480 --> 00:32:51.599 very helpful and I'm very thankful for that. By the way, 488 00:32:51.640 --> 00:32:54.519 it was a great video. Is there any sort of 489 00:32:54.680 --> 00:33:00.240 historical lineage for the sort of chanting or the way 490 00:33:00.279 --> 00:33:03.160 that the text is read in the Divine Liturgy? 491 00:33:04.039 --> 00:33:06.759 Yeah, it's exactly. It's directly out of the synagogue, the 492 00:33:06.839 --> 00:33:09.079 way that the synagogue has chanters and canters. 493 00:33:11.039 --> 00:33:13.519 Awesome, Well, thank you so much. I really appreciate it. 494 00:33:13.559 --> 00:33:13.799 Thanks you. 495 00:33:15.559 --> 00:33:29.079 Those are really good questions. Appreciate that. Jacob Jordain five bucks. 496 00:33:29.160 --> 00:33:31.200 I love Sam. But oddly it seems that the claims 497 00:33:31.200 --> 00:33:34.480 a Vatican two and him seeing the anti trinitarian errors 498 00:33:34.559 --> 00:33:36.039 of Catholicism. 499 00:33:35.599 --> 00:33:36.240 Is not enough. 500 00:33:38.440 --> 00:33:40.559 Well, I mean, you know, we'll see. It takes time. 501 00:33:40.680 --> 00:33:42.599 People have to work through these issues. It took me 502 00:33:42.680 --> 00:33:44.279 a long time to work through a lot of these issues. 503 00:33:44.359 --> 00:33:58.759 So what's up, Jacob? Are you there got anute? Guys, 504 00:33:58.799 --> 00:34:00.400 you gotta turn your mic on if you're coming out. 505 00:34:00.400 --> 00:34:02.839 We're looking for Protestants, so please don't be all the 506 00:34:02.880 --> 00:34:04.880 same Orthodox people to call in every time I do it. 507 00:34:05.000 --> 00:34:10.079 Last room, Chrisky. 508 00:34:09.480 --> 00:34:18.880 Master, Hey, can you hear me? 509 00:34:20.840 --> 00:34:24.880 I sort of had like three main questions because I 510 00:34:25.039 --> 00:34:29.880 was watching, like I think there were more early sort 511 00:34:29.880 --> 00:34:33.280 of videos about tag and and sort of that whole thing. 512 00:34:33.960 --> 00:34:36.480 And I remember I was. 513 00:34:36.480 --> 00:34:38.679 On TikTok yesterday just kind of scrolling through and I 514 00:34:38.760 --> 00:34:40.079 ended up debating these Muslims. 515 00:34:41.400 --> 00:34:45.719 And one of the one of the things that was really. 516 00:34:45.599 --> 00:34:46.280 Confusing to me. 517 00:34:46.639 --> 00:34:48.599 I mean, I think you mentioned earlier is the idea 518 00:34:48.679 --> 00:34:52.719 that in order to have divine nature you have to 519 00:34:52.920 --> 00:34:56.360 also have been unngenerated basically, and the way that the 520 00:34:56.440 --> 00:35:03.320 father is Wait, who said that, uh for I think 521 00:35:03.320 --> 00:35:04.320 it was a Muslim or something like that. 522 00:35:04.400 --> 00:35:07.960 That's the Muslim argument. That's exactly what the woman before 523 00:35:08.039 --> 00:35:13.400 you was saying. Yeah, so you want an answer to that? 524 00:35:15.559 --> 00:35:19.159 Well, so sort of I guess because of the response 525 00:35:19.199 --> 00:35:23.719 that I had was a most eloquent way of answering 526 00:35:23.840 --> 00:35:24.239 that you did. 527 00:35:24.320 --> 00:35:25.599 But then another thing. 528 00:35:27.920 --> 00:35:30.559 That I was kind of thinking about was sort of 529 00:35:30.639 --> 00:35:31.440 the temporal thing. 530 00:35:31.480 --> 00:35:32.800 That's one thing I really did have to get my 531 00:35:32.840 --> 00:35:36.440 head around pretty harshly, was. 532 00:35:36.519 --> 00:35:38.800 The idea that even though. 533 00:35:40.199 --> 00:35:42.559 The Son and the Spirit are generated from the Father, 534 00:35:42.679 --> 00:35:47.679 that doesn't mean that they don't share divine nature. And 535 00:35:47.760 --> 00:35:51.039 it was something that kind of like I understood it subtly, 536 00:35:51.320 --> 00:35:54.239 but it wasn't something that I fully understood until I 537 00:35:54.320 --> 00:35:58.280 started kind of looking into like different qualifiers, so what 538 00:35:58.400 --> 00:35:59.400 divine nature even is? 539 00:36:03.800 --> 00:36:07.920 And then the second thing, the second. 540 00:36:07.639 --> 00:36:10.960 Thing that I have like a sort of question on 541 00:36:11.360 --> 00:36:14.960 was specifically about the I don't know I say it properly, 542 00:36:15.039 --> 00:36:17.320 but the seven Ecumenical Councils. 543 00:36:17.079 --> 00:36:17.440 Right is that? 544 00:36:20.280 --> 00:36:23.719 So I was I was wondering, uh, because this is 545 00:36:23.760 --> 00:36:25.719 one thing where like when I was becoming Christian, I 546 00:36:25.840 --> 00:36:30.960 was kind of weighing between Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism. What 547 00:36:31.119 --> 00:36:35.559 it's specifically with the Roman I guess, uh, I guess 548 00:36:35.559 --> 00:36:36.320 there's probably. 549 00:36:36.079 --> 00:36:40.960 Multiple points, but with the Ecumenical. 550 00:36:40.360 --> 00:36:44.719 Councils, I don't know which one it was, but it's. 551 00:36:44.639 --> 00:36:46.079 Basically the Uh. 552 00:36:47.719 --> 00:36:52.039 The Roman Catholicism like uh idolization and stuff like that, 553 00:36:52.199 --> 00:36:55.159 where you see that like a lot of and this 554 00:36:55.280 --> 00:36:56.960 is something that I noticed distinctly, is that a lot 555 00:36:57.000 --> 00:37:01.800 of like the idols and the art, like the illustrations 556 00:37:01.840 --> 00:37:04.760 they have, they seem almost. 557 00:37:04.840 --> 00:37:05.760 Like very h. 558 00:37:07.280 --> 00:37:08.039 Like very uh. 559 00:37:08.440 --> 00:37:10.480 I just in here would probably be the best way 560 00:37:10.480 --> 00:37:12.119 I could put it, though it's probably not a great way. 561 00:37:12.519 --> 00:37:18.360 Yeah, they're they're they're emotionalists, they're sensationalist, they are essentially 562 00:37:18.559 --> 00:37:23.599 it's essentially pagan art. So you're asking what specifically rebukes that, Well, 563 00:37:24.519 --> 00:37:27.119 if the principles of the Canons of the seven Ecumenical 564 00:37:27.199 --> 00:37:29.480 councils lay out the beginning of that, or excuse me, 565 00:37:29.559 --> 00:37:31.920 the Seventh Council. So the Seventh Ecamenical Council and its 566 00:37:32.000 --> 00:37:35.840 canons mentions icons multiple times in the canons, and it says, 567 00:37:35.880 --> 00:37:41.159 for example, you cannot make images of the Father. Later on, 568 00:37:41.920 --> 00:37:45.760 in eight forty three, there is the Byzantine Synod, which 569 00:37:45.800 --> 00:37:48.840 we call the Orthodox Church the Triumph of Orthodoxy Sunday. 570 00:37:48.880 --> 00:37:51.599 This is when the iconic class were defeated and the 571 00:37:51.840 --> 00:37:56.079 icons were restored. That council put together a document which 572 00:37:56.239 --> 00:38:00.719 is called the sonatacon Sonoticon goes into great d listing 573 00:38:00.800 --> 00:38:02.920 all of the heresies and all the things that are condemned, 574 00:38:04.000 --> 00:38:09.320 many different positions and errors. It reaffirms other statements about iconography. 575 00:38:09.800 --> 00:38:12.440 The book you want to read is Theology the Icon 576 00:38:12.599 --> 00:38:16.400 Volume one and two by Lasky and Ospensky. Particularly volume 577 00:38:16.480 --> 00:38:20.519 two goes into much more detail about the Palamite theological 578 00:38:21.079 --> 00:38:24.519 principles behind iconography. There's a whole chapter on that, and 579 00:38:24.599 --> 00:38:26.840 then later on you get into the principles that are 580 00:38:26.920 --> 00:38:30.920 laid out in the Moscow Icon Synods about why certain 581 00:38:31.000 --> 00:38:34.800 things are wrong in terms of iconography. Which icons are heterodox, 582 00:38:34.880 --> 00:38:37.280 for example, the ones that teach the Philly oquay. So 583 00:38:37.760 --> 00:38:40.519 all of that needs to be taken into account. And 584 00:38:40.719 --> 00:38:43.360 some people misunderstood when I made the icon video. They 585 00:38:43.400 --> 00:38:46.360 thought that I was saying that the seven of that 586 00:38:46.440 --> 00:38:49.760 con Medical Council explicitly says we reject Roman Catholic artwork. 587 00:38:49.920 --> 00:38:52.960 I said nothing like that. In the Orthodox Church, when 588 00:38:53.000 --> 00:38:56.119 the eight forty three Council states the triumph of Orthodoxy, 589 00:38:56.280 --> 00:38:58.400 that for us is part of the Seventh Council. That's 590 00:38:58.480 --> 00:39:00.840 the victory of the Seventh Council. We don't have this 591 00:39:01.000 --> 00:39:03.719 legalistic Roman Catholic view that the only thing that matters 592 00:39:04.239 --> 00:39:06.840 is the document that the Pope signs off on. For us, 593 00:39:06.880 --> 00:39:10.519 those are holistically part of the liturgical tradition. And so 594 00:39:10.679 --> 00:39:15.199 if the eight forty three Triumph of Orthodoxy pronouncements in 595 00:39:15.239 --> 00:39:19.679 the Sonoticon become part of the Orthodox universal universal liturgical tradition, 596 00:39:20.119 --> 00:39:22.280 for us, they're received, and they're part of our dogmas, 597 00:39:22.320 --> 00:39:25.079 They're part of our tradition. Yes, I know that the 598 00:39:25.159 --> 00:39:28.639 Sonaticon has variations in it, and I know that different bishops, 599 00:39:28.639 --> 00:39:32.800 even up into today, can add groups that are rejected, 600 00:39:32.960 --> 00:39:36.880 such as the Joe's Witnesses, other cults and sex can 601 00:39:36.960 --> 00:39:41.760 be mentioned in modern bishops versions of the Sonaticon. But 602 00:39:42.320 --> 00:39:44.519 the principle is still the same, and the principles of 603 00:39:44.559 --> 00:39:47.960 the iconographic tradition are still the same. And the best 604 00:39:48.000 --> 00:39:51.400 book on that is the volume two of Lavsky Knowspensky. 605 00:39:51.519 --> 00:39:54.039 And if you read that, you will see that all 606 00:39:54.079 --> 00:39:55.920 of the things that you've heard me argue over the 607 00:39:56.000 --> 00:39:59.480 last early years, they're all laid out there. So I'm 608 00:39:59.519 --> 00:40:03.519 not making up things or randomly just saying crap, And 609 00:40:03.599 --> 00:40:05.440 I have no idea where I'm getting in I'm just 610 00:40:05.519 --> 00:40:09.159 asserting stuff. I give you guys the books and the 611 00:40:09.280 --> 00:40:11.760 references all the time, but there's a lot of really 612 00:40:11.840 --> 00:40:17.320 low quality, low tier, low information voters, especially online, who 613 00:40:17.360 --> 00:40:19.320 don't know any of this stuff. Guys, if you what 614 00:40:19.480 --> 00:40:21.480 we have with over a one thousand people a minute 615 00:40:21.519 --> 00:40:23.320 ago and we got two hundred and seventy five likes, 616 00:40:23.400 --> 00:40:26.400 hit Like, let's put this up to the top. Let's 617 00:40:26.400 --> 00:40:30.079 get some good callers, let's get some good exchanges with 618 00:40:30.280 --> 00:40:32.639 Wi Fi Gospel five bucks. Hey, what's the orthodox understanding 619 00:40:32.639 --> 00:40:35.519 of tewod Peter three sixteen? How did Peter know that 620 00:40:35.559 --> 00:40:40.559 Paul's writing for scripture? Peter was a divinely inspired apostle, 621 00:40:40.880 --> 00:40:44.679 and so when he preached or teached, taught, excuse me, 622 00:40:44.920 --> 00:40:47.599 preached or taught the Word of God, he knew it 623 00:40:47.880 --> 00:40:50.559 was inspired word of God. Likewise, he would have also 624 00:40:50.599 --> 00:40:56.360 been able to recognize Paul's authoritative teaching, and he presumably 625 00:40:56.440 --> 00:40:58.559 then had access to and knowledge of what's called the 626 00:40:58.599 --> 00:41:01.639 autograph of the autogra are the ones that Paul himself wrote. 627 00:41:02.039 --> 00:41:05.480 Nobody has these. We don't have AUTOGRAPHA. All we have 628 00:41:06.000 --> 00:41:11.000 in the church are copies of the apostolic writings and 629 00:41:11.039 --> 00:41:15.159 the Gospels, and that's why the church tradition is absolutely 630 00:41:15.320 --> 00:41:20.039 necessary to understanding and knowing the candidate scripture. And that's 631 00:41:20.079 --> 00:41:24.039 a huge point against Protestantism. It's not just the argument 632 00:41:24.079 --> 00:41:27.599 as many low tier Protestants have misunderstood, because many bad 633 00:41:27.719 --> 00:41:31.079 Roman Catholic apologists say, you don't have infallible pope, so 634 00:41:31.159 --> 00:41:33.920 you can't know the Bible infallibly. That's kind of a 635 00:41:33.960 --> 00:41:37.079 bad argument, and we don't go that route because one 636 00:41:37.360 --> 00:41:41.119 is an epistemic question about individual certitude and to just 637 00:41:41.159 --> 00:41:43.280 say that the pope tells you that just moves a 638 00:41:43.320 --> 00:41:45.159 problem back and stuff, because it assumes that you can 639 00:41:45.360 --> 00:41:51.280 accurately interpret the pope's teachings. Secondly, that's a question of normativity. 640 00:41:51.440 --> 00:41:54.639 Normativity means the ability to buying people. Kind of like 641 00:41:54.760 --> 00:41:59.639 the Supreme Court interprets the Constitution. It's not everybody in 642 00:41:59.679 --> 00:42:02.199 America just interpreting it the way they want. There's an 643 00:42:02.599 --> 00:42:05.840 authority that has the ability to bind people to that 644 00:42:06.000 --> 00:42:09.519 interpretation and to bind consciences. And that's something that the 645 00:42:09.559 --> 00:42:14.280 Protestant Reformation is premised on. Rejecting. Protestant theology from the 646 00:42:14.360 --> 00:42:16.840 Reformation on says that they have the freedom of conscience, 647 00:42:16.880 --> 00:42:19.960 the rights of private interpretation. That's a rejection of the 648 00:42:20.079 --> 00:42:24.400 notion of normative authority. That's a different question from individual 649 00:42:24.559 --> 00:42:27.639 existential certitude about how do I know what the Canons 650 00:42:27.639 --> 00:42:30.760 scripture is? How do I know that Matthew wrote Matthew. 651 00:42:30.960 --> 00:42:34.440 Those are difficult questions and they cannot be divorced once 652 00:42:34.480 --> 00:42:37.639 you get into this from the history of the church 653 00:42:38.320 --> 00:42:40.639 and the history of the bishops and the Apostolic sees 654 00:42:41.679 --> 00:42:45.400 maintaining the tradition, for example, that Matthew wrote Matthew's Gospel. 655 00:42:46.679 --> 00:42:51.880 You see, why aren't you Catholic? I mean, I've got 656 00:42:52.320 --> 00:42:54.599 thirteen hundred videos on my channel telling you why I'm 657 00:42:54.599 --> 00:42:55.039 not Catholic. 658 00:42:55.119 --> 00:42:55.320 Dude. 659 00:42:56.480 --> 00:42:59.840 That's why we have these open discussions here almost every 660 00:42:59.840 --> 00:43:03.280 other day, and all you have to do is call 661 00:43:03.320 --> 00:43:05.639 in right here. So if you want to go to 662 00:43:05.679 --> 00:43:08.599 the head of the line, and please, guys, I'm looking 663 00:43:08.639 --> 00:43:12.960 for people who are Protestant or Catholic or Muslim. I 664 00:43:13.039 --> 00:43:16.480 want them to call in. So take your catechumen questions 665 00:43:17.239 --> 00:43:21.920 to your priest. I'm not your catechist, Okay. If you 666 00:43:21.960 --> 00:43:23.880 don't have a catechist, then I understand you're in a 667 00:43:23.920 --> 00:43:26.639 difficult situation. But every time I do this, all the 668 00:43:26.760 --> 00:43:29.480 Orthodox catechumens and inquirers come in here and they pile 669 00:43:29.559 --> 00:43:32.239 in and they take up all the time that could 670 00:43:32.320 --> 00:43:36.360 go to people who are Protestant or Muslim who need 671 00:43:36.440 --> 00:43:39.280 to hear these things. So don't take up other people's 672 00:43:39.360 --> 00:43:44.239 times just because you want your question about fasting or 673 00:43:44.480 --> 00:43:47.480 calendars or whatever. That's not what this is for. Okay, 674 00:43:47.519 --> 00:43:51.079 It's listed very clear Protestantism is false. So I want 675 00:43:51.119 --> 00:43:53.639 those people to come on. Please do not bring me 676 00:43:54.000 --> 00:43:57.880 your Orthodox catechuman questions. You do that at your church 677 00:43:57.960 --> 00:44:02.000 with your catechists hushed tones. 678 00:44:05.480 --> 00:44:06.280 Yo, can you hear me? 679 00:44:07.480 --> 00:44:07.840 Awesome? 680 00:44:08.079 --> 00:44:10.639 Sweet, I've been a long time listener, so I'm glad 681 00:44:10.679 --> 00:44:12.320 I finally have something to ask. 682 00:44:12.440 --> 00:44:14.280 But I promise it's not a catech human question. 683 00:44:16.000 --> 00:44:18.519 So, like, I have an older family member right who's 684 00:44:18.559 --> 00:44:22.039 a lifelong Baptist, and ever since I've been getting into Orthodox, 685 00:44:22.079 --> 00:44:23.320 he's been more curious about it. 686 00:44:24.159 --> 00:44:27.039 But it kind of seems like that like being a like, 687 00:44:27.199 --> 00:44:28.800 so his view, he's. 688 00:44:28.719 --> 00:44:33.079 Super into like Luther and Aquinas, but he also believes 689 00:44:33.159 --> 00:44:36.440 in the Book of Enoch when that like contradicts Sola 690 00:44:36.519 --> 00:44:39.840 script Torah. And then he's also super into like always 691 00:44:39.880 --> 00:44:44.039 telling me about how the elites are doing the Kabbalah rituals. 692 00:44:44.119 --> 00:44:47.639 The Trump getting shot was a ritual, and the JFK 693 00:44:47.800 --> 00:44:51.679 stuff was a Masonic ritual. So like he's as a Baptist, 694 00:44:51.760 --> 00:44:55.360 he's giving this like mystical power to these other like factions, 695 00:44:55.440 --> 00:44:55.639 you know. 696 00:44:56.280 --> 00:44:59.960 So and then as a Baptist it leaves, it leaves. 697 00:44:59.840 --> 00:45:03.519 His are sacraments are mysticism as an Eastern Orthodox world 698 00:45:03.679 --> 00:45:06.840 just as Christians in general as like merely symbolic and 699 00:45:07.000 --> 00:45:10.239 not like giving us any like counter like to you know, 700 00:45:10.400 --> 00:45:14.639 counteraction to this like mystical you know, evil or whatever. 701 00:45:14.840 --> 00:45:18.760 So like, how does like Protestantism like ultimately leave to 702 00:45:18.920 --> 00:45:22.760 like lead to the self defeating worldview where like we're 703 00:45:22.840 --> 00:45:23.960 just reduced to symbols. 704 00:45:24.079 --> 00:45:25.159 But then all these other. 705 00:45:25.400 --> 00:45:28.079 Like traditions and oh that's an interesting point. Yeah, So, 706 00:45:28.440 --> 00:45:34.639 like Protestantism sees the religion and particularly the way that 707 00:45:35.159 --> 00:45:38.119 you know, the Lord's Supper or baptism, right, like Protestantism 708 00:45:38.199 --> 00:45:41.679 sees that primarily as a kind of a symbolic function, 709 00:45:42.400 --> 00:45:46.840 which is ironic because they have a judaized idea of 710 00:45:47.400 --> 00:45:50.320 the sacraments, because their view of sacraments, for the most part, 711 00:45:50.920 --> 00:45:53.800 unless they're high charged Protestants, is more or less the 712 00:45:53.880 --> 00:45:57.079 way that we would say the Old Testament quote, sacraments functioned, right, 713 00:45:57.199 --> 00:46:00.639 So circumcision or the temple rituals or whatever the Old Testament, 714 00:46:00.679 --> 00:46:04.480 which are primarily typological pointing forward to the fulfillment of 715 00:46:04.480 --> 00:46:08.440 the New Testament, Protestants really see the New Testament sacraments 716 00:46:08.679 --> 00:46:13.039 as functionally no different than the Old Testament sacraments. And 717 00:46:13.199 --> 00:46:15.719 the way that Paul argues, for example, and colautions, is 718 00:46:15.800 --> 00:46:21.679 that circumcision was the type baptism. The ritual is the reality, 719 00:46:21.920 --> 00:46:25.960 you see. So the New Testament sacraments bring the reality 720 00:46:26.199 --> 00:46:32.480 and the power that the Old Testament sacraments foreshadowed, you see. 721 00:46:33.480 --> 00:46:39.079 So to go back to a Old Testament notion of 722 00:46:39.199 --> 00:46:42.440 what we think the sacraments in the Old Testament, this 723 00:46:42.679 --> 00:46:46.920 pure symbolism type of view, like a Baptist, is retrograde, right. 724 00:46:47.079 --> 00:46:50.000 It's removing the power. And it reminds me of what 725 00:46:50.079 --> 00:46:53.320 Paul talks about a religion the form of godliness but 726 00:46:53.440 --> 00:46:59.000 lacking the power thereof. But they will grant to sorcerers 727 00:46:59.159 --> 00:47:05.760 and Talmudic magicians like all this magical power to run giant, 728 00:47:06.079 --> 00:47:09.519 huge rituals and all this stuff. It's silly, But I 729 00:47:09.559 --> 00:47:11.239 would say if I can, if you said it was 730 00:47:11.280 --> 00:47:13.400 your uncle or your dad or whatever, but I would 731 00:47:13.440 --> 00:47:15.800 just say, you know, older people are not going to 732 00:47:15.880 --> 00:47:18.360 listen to you debating the position. You might as well 733 00:47:18.480 --> 00:47:35.559 just invite him to church or something like that. Unism okay, 734 00:47:35.719 --> 00:47:38.519 So if Forrest Drake won't come in here to debate, 735 00:47:39.159 --> 00:47:45.119 just to boot the guy like this is okay, he 736 00:47:45.199 --> 00:47:47.800 has no idea. Charles Francis, come in debate, you have 737 00:47:47.880 --> 00:47:49.679 no idea what we're even talking about. This is so 738 00:47:50.920 --> 00:47:54.079 these Protestants are so ignorant and arrogant, they have no 739 00:47:54.239 --> 00:47:57.559 idea what even these words mean. And they're just like 740 00:47:58.239 --> 00:48:01.320 super ready to debate. This is Protenism is a cancer, man, 741 00:48:01.320 --> 00:48:06.079 It just produces all these idiots. If Charles and the 742 00:48:06.199 --> 00:48:09.840 other dude uh don't won't come to debate in the chat, 743 00:48:10.000 --> 00:48:12.400 boot these people because they just monopolize the whole chat, 744 00:48:12.440 --> 00:48:13.519 and all they don't want to do is span their 745 00:48:13.559 --> 00:48:28.679 craft Unism on you man, all right, Okay, if you 746 00:48:28.719 --> 00:48:32.199 don't turn your microphone on, you can't you won't be 747 00:48:32.239 --> 00:48:36.239 able to speak in the spaces Dylan, what's up man? 748 00:48:41.840 --> 00:48:43.920 Shout out to everybody in the chat, welcome, hit like 749 00:48:43.960 --> 00:48:46.360 and share it. We got thirteen hundred viewers right now 750 00:48:46.480 --> 00:48:50.639 if you would call in, if you would like to 751 00:48:51.000 --> 00:48:54.199 discuss Protestanism, and you can also support the stream bias 752 00:48:54.280 --> 00:48:57.360 super chats through stream labs or natively through YouTube. What's 753 00:48:57.440 --> 00:48:57.719 up man? 754 00:49:02.519 --> 00:49:03.000 Hey Jay? 755 00:49:04.239 --> 00:49:05.480 Do you hear me? Yes? 756 00:49:06.400 --> 00:49:10.239 Okay, Hey, So I have a question I raised in 757 00:49:10.360 --> 00:49:13.840 the Protestant denomination. I would say I'm more like an 758 00:49:13.920 --> 00:49:17.679 Orthodox in choir now and trying to try to wrap 759 00:49:17.719 --> 00:49:18.440 my head around some. 760 00:49:18.519 --> 00:49:20.559 Stuff to help my wife understand. 761 00:49:21.920 --> 00:49:26.840 So in Protestantism and even in Catholicism, uh, there's a 762 00:49:26.960 --> 00:49:31.440 sense of like I think the word is ecumenism or acumenism, 763 00:49:31.679 --> 00:49:34.440 you know, kind of like a universal salvation. 764 00:49:35.280 --> 00:49:40.880 As I believe in the Trinity, you believe in the Court. 765 00:49:41.159 --> 00:49:41.800 Do trends. 766 00:49:41.840 --> 00:49:42.559 That's all you need. 767 00:49:42.960 --> 00:49:45.480 And I think even the Catholic Church has you can 768 00:49:45.519 --> 00:49:50.480 be an invisible part of communion with the Church. I 769 00:49:50.639 --> 00:49:53.800 haven't been able to find an answer to what is 770 00:49:53.880 --> 00:49:57.480 the Orthodox position? I know there they say, you know, 771 00:49:57.800 --> 00:50:00.400 with the One True Church, it's like Noah's this is 772 00:50:00.440 --> 00:50:04.519 where salvation can be found. What is the I guess 773 00:50:05.239 --> 00:50:08.639 you know, authoritative stance for right. 774 00:50:08.719 --> 00:50:13.039 So essentially there's no invisible church doctrine. The Church is 775 00:50:13.119 --> 00:50:18.480 just as much a visible, real historical reality as Christ's 776 00:50:18.519 --> 00:50:25.519 physical body was one united in history. So invisible church 777 00:50:25.599 --> 00:50:28.079 doctrine which is the basis for a humanism which is 778 00:50:28.199 --> 00:50:32.320 kind of at the root of Anglican branch theory, that's 779 00:50:32.360 --> 00:50:35.079 the origins of modern ecumenism. And you're right that it's 780 00:50:35.400 --> 00:50:38.760 ultimately kind of a denial of the incarnation, and it's 781 00:50:38.800 --> 00:50:44.159 a denial it's basically a Nestorian version of ecclesiology. So 782 00:50:44.239 --> 00:50:46.960 the same heresy of Nestorias to divide the person of 783 00:50:47.079 --> 00:50:52.719 Christ from the person to the logos, is applying that 784 00:50:52.880 --> 00:50:57.199 same division to the body, the body of the Church, 785 00:50:58.119 --> 00:51:05.400 and then to kind of make Christianity dissolve into countless sects. Right, No, 786 00:51:05.639 --> 00:51:08.719 there's one church in history. Every one of the ecumenical 787 00:51:08.800 --> 00:51:12.039 councils speaks as if the Church is a single, visible 788 00:51:12.119 --> 00:51:17.400 historical institution. And every time that this comes up, you'll 789 00:51:17.440 --> 00:51:21.119 see appeals to what the Creed calls the four marks 790 00:51:21.119 --> 00:51:23.440 of the Church. I believe in one Holy Catholic and 791 00:51:23.480 --> 00:51:27.159 Apostolic Church. Now Protestants, many of them will confess the 792 00:51:27.239 --> 00:51:29.679 Nicene Creed, and they'll say that they believe in one 793 00:51:29.719 --> 00:51:32.360 Holy Catholic and Epistolic Church. But of course they don't 794 00:51:32.440 --> 00:51:34.880 mean it in the sense of the Cappadocians and the 795 00:51:34.920 --> 00:51:37.800 people at the Second Ecumenical Council who compose that part 796 00:51:37.840 --> 00:51:40.920 of the creed. They mean it in the Protestant sense 797 00:51:41.000 --> 00:51:44.000 of one invisible church, et cetera, et cetera. It is 798 00:51:44.119 --> 00:51:48.880 not what the Cappadocians meant when they wrote that. So, yeah, 799 00:51:48.960 --> 00:51:52.199 the Church is a single body, a single treat, a 800 00:51:52.280 --> 00:51:57.280 single covenant, a single sheep fold, a single house, a 801 00:51:57.440 --> 00:51:59.880 single New Israel. I mean all of the and now 802 00:52:00.000 --> 00:52:03.159 ologies even to the New Testament, make it a single institution, 803 00:52:03.840 --> 00:52:08.320 not something divided amongst countless sects with countless competing confessions. 804 00:52:08.920 --> 00:52:11.480 And even within the Roman Catholic Church, this doesn't exist 805 00:52:11.679 --> 00:52:15.159 because the Roman Catholic Confession allows you to be a uniate, 806 00:52:15.800 --> 00:52:20.920 to believe basically most of Orthodox theology, and to do 807 00:52:21.039 --> 00:52:23.719 what you want, act like you want as if you're Orthodox. 808 00:52:24.800 --> 00:52:27.679 But it's an inconsistent position because many of them don't 809 00:52:27.719 --> 00:52:30.360 believe the Council Trent. They don't believe in purgatory, they 810 00:52:30.400 --> 00:52:33.599 don't believe back in one. And yet in Roman Catholicism 811 00:52:33.719 --> 00:52:35.719 you are bound and are supposed to believe all of 812 00:52:35.760 --> 00:52:38.440 the ecumenical councils that the Pope signs off on. So 813 00:52:38.599 --> 00:52:41.639 you see that that right there, the allowance within the 814 00:52:41.800 --> 00:52:47.039 Roman system from multiple creeds and confessions disproves the Roman 815 00:52:47.159 --> 00:52:50.880 system number one as actually possessing the unity of faith 816 00:52:50.960 --> 00:52:53.559 that they claim to have, and number two, it shows 817 00:52:53.639 --> 00:52:57.840 that they have contradictory systems within it that are just 818 00:52:57.920 --> 00:53:02.719 about political power. The only church confessing the same confessions 819 00:53:02.880 --> 00:53:06.239 of the ecadmenical councils is the Orthodox Church. That's why 820 00:53:06.320 --> 00:53:09.880 we always go to the ecaemical councils and their canons. 821 00:53:10.400 --> 00:53:12.760 There's nothing to do with whether the canons are infallible. 822 00:53:13.159 --> 00:53:15.280 It's a question of whether the canons of the councils 823 00:53:15.400 --> 00:53:18.679 express the mind of the church in that century, which 824 00:53:18.679 --> 00:53:22.239 everyone admits that they do. But that means that the 825 00:53:24.599 --> 00:53:28.199 Roman Catholic view is not true because it does not 826 00:53:28.360 --> 00:53:35.639 confess the principles of those councils. It professes the deviation 827 00:53:35.880 --> 00:53:38.920 that begins in the eighth ninth, tenth, and eleventh centuries, 828 00:53:40.039 --> 00:53:45.360 particularly the Gregorian reforms. Dictatus pape. This evolves into unum sanctum, 829 00:53:45.639 --> 00:53:49.440 where the pope now becomes a geopolitical world ruler that 830 00:53:49.519 --> 00:53:53.159 doesn't exist in the first seven centuries, not even the 831 00:53:53.239 --> 00:53:54.000 papal states. 832 00:53:54.280 --> 00:53:54.519 Is that. 833 00:53:54.880 --> 00:53:59.519 That's very new. And every modern historian, whether Orthodox or Catholic, 834 00:53:59.679 --> 00:54:07.840 admit it's this now. Papadacus, Sashensky, Mayandorf Kongar de Vornik, 835 00:54:08.440 --> 00:54:12.239 they all admit this. The Vatican now admits it eighty 836 00:54:12.840 --> 00:54:17.920 Alexandria documents. So the mindset of the Roman Catholic is 837 00:54:18.000 --> 00:54:20.760 living as if none of that has has been admitted. 838 00:54:21.239 --> 00:54:23.199 Oh no, I don't care about any of that. I'm 839 00:54:23.239 --> 00:54:26.679 going to pretend like the donation of Constantine wasn't a 840 00:54:26.719 --> 00:54:30.840 forgery and the pope is a geopolitical world ruler. Still okay, 841 00:54:30.920 --> 00:54:34.320 But Dictatus pape And when I'm sunk to say that 842 00:54:34.480 --> 00:54:37.880 to be saved, you also have to confess that the 843 00:54:37.960 --> 00:54:43.119 pope is a legitimate temporal state power. To be saved, 844 00:54:43.320 --> 00:54:46.280 it's not just believe in the Roman Catholic miship the 845 00:54:46.360 --> 00:54:50.599 Romans is going to be saved. It's also belief in 846 00:54:50.679 --> 00:54:55.360 the temporal supremacy the Roman vision to be saved. Jonathan, 847 00:54:56.199 --> 00:55:04.960 it was Colon here turn a fan off, got on 848 00:55:05.079 --> 00:55:09.880 mute Jonathan? Hey, yes, sir, Hey Jay? 849 00:55:11.480 --> 00:55:11.719 Sorry? 850 00:55:11.840 --> 00:55:15.719 So the oh first off, really big fan, really awesome 851 00:55:15.800 --> 00:55:17.920 to have someone on the Orthodox I had to get 852 00:55:18.039 --> 00:55:24.480 perspective on. I wanted to focus on sol scriptura and 853 00:55:24.639 --> 00:55:29.400 the concept behind that, and I wanted to first get 854 00:55:29.440 --> 00:55:31.079 the premise in this precondition. 855 00:55:31.199 --> 00:55:31.639 So my. 856 00:55:33.360 --> 00:55:36.880 My framework is more in line with how have you 857 00:55:36.960 --> 00:55:38.000 familiar with Michael Kruger? 858 00:55:39.119 --> 00:55:41.000 No, okay, uncle crue. 859 00:55:41.039 --> 00:55:43.079 I got out a book called canon of the Deed 860 00:55:43.199 --> 00:55:45.400 of the of the Bible based on. 861 00:55:47.760 --> 00:55:49.239 I forgot the guy's name before. 862 00:55:49.079 --> 00:55:51.960 But essentially he's he's making a model where he's talking 863 00:55:52.000 --> 00:55:57.119 about a framework to view canonicity of scripture under a 864 00:55:57.199 --> 00:56:02.039 self authenticating model, where can't where script itself like authenticates itself. 865 00:56:01.960 --> 00:56:04.719 For it's infallibility. 866 00:56:06.000 --> 00:56:08.800 I know the Orthodox position also has scripture and tradition I. 867 00:56:08.880 --> 00:56:10.880 Believe, so. 868 00:56:12.400 --> 00:56:15.159 I wanted to see if that if health thinking model 869 00:56:15.159 --> 00:56:19.199 would be inherently contradictory logically. 870 00:56:20.920 --> 00:56:23.800 I think it would be, because, for example, if the 871 00:56:24.480 --> 00:56:31.320 notion of apostolic authorship is part of what we need 872 00:56:31.519 --> 00:56:35.320 to know, for example, that Matthew wrote Matthew's Gospel. There's 873 00:56:35.400 --> 00:56:39.199 nothing self authenticating within the other text that tells you that, 874 00:56:39.559 --> 00:56:41.280 and that it should be included. 875 00:56:43.800 --> 00:56:48.320 Nothink, So okay, okay, And then how does how does 876 00:56:48.400 --> 00:56:52.599 the model like where you have the church authenticating the 877 00:56:52.679 --> 00:56:57.039 model for canonicity subvert that, because then wouldn't that be 878 00:56:57.239 --> 00:56:59.880 like a version of it, like a regression where people 879 00:56:59.920 --> 00:57:02.239 can just argue, or there could be development of canon. 880 00:57:02.840 --> 00:57:05.840 There was development of canon. That's why, for example, you 881 00:57:06.000 --> 00:57:11.159 see competing canons for centuries until an ecumenical council in. 882 00:57:11.199 --> 00:57:13.159 The Orthodox or Council of trend or even before that. 883 00:57:13.880 --> 00:57:17.119 No, before that, I'm talking about the Council of Trello's 884 00:57:17.199 --> 00:57:20.400 canons being affirmed at the Seventh Council. That's the Orthodox 885 00:57:20.960 --> 00:57:25.280 perspective on when an ecumenical council makes a decision about 886 00:57:25.719 --> 00:57:29.199 the normative canon for the for the church. That's universal. 887 00:57:29.679 --> 00:57:31.840 So prior to that, you have a bunch of different 888 00:57:31.920 --> 00:57:34.599 types of canons and competing lists. I'm scrolling down to 889 00:57:34.760 --> 00:57:38.000 my posts on this the other day. And so for example, 890 00:57:38.039 --> 00:57:42.440 you have it's not until the time of Athenacious that 891 00:57:42.559 --> 00:57:46.400 you get the agreed upon New Testament canon that we 892 00:57:46.519 --> 00:57:51.199 all as Protestants, Orthodox and Catholic agree on. But Athenasius, 893 00:57:51.280 --> 00:57:53.840 if you read Lee McDonald's book, Who's a textual scholar, 894 00:57:54.159 --> 00:57:56.639 a Baptist guy, he admits that Athenasius had to go 895 00:57:56.760 --> 00:57:59.599 to Rome to convince Rome to include some of the 896 00:57:59.679 --> 00:58:03.079 Catholic epistles and Revelation because Rome didn't even think that 897 00:58:03.320 --> 00:58:06.719 revelation was authentic. So you notice, right there there's an 898 00:58:06.800 --> 00:58:12.480 example of process and debate and Patristic tradition and argumentation 899 00:58:13.159 --> 00:58:17.360 that is nothing to do with this idea of self authentication. 900 00:58:17.519 --> 00:58:20.599 I mean, in other words, the idea that the canon 901 00:58:20.679 --> 00:58:24.800 authenticates itself is negated by the actual formation of the canon, 902 00:58:24.920 --> 00:58:27.920 the way that it actually happened, as admitted by the 903 00:58:28.000 --> 00:58:31.719 Protestant scholars like F. F. Bruce or like Lee McDonnell. 904 00:58:32.280 --> 00:58:36.000 So you have, for example, competing New Testament Old Testament 905 00:58:36.039 --> 00:58:40.079 canons until Affinaceous posits in his Festal Letter what we 906 00:58:40.239 --> 00:58:42.639 mostly think of as a New Testament canon, but the 907 00:58:42.920 --> 00:58:47.599 prevalent Old Testament canon according to the Apostolic canons, Canon 908 00:58:47.639 --> 00:58:49.079 eighty five. Are you familiar with that? 909 00:58:50.039 --> 00:58:50.239 Yeah? 910 00:58:50.679 --> 00:58:54.280 So Canon eighty five lists most of the deuterocanonical texts, 911 00:58:54.719 --> 00:58:58.719 but it also doesn't have revelation and it includes Clement right. 912 00:59:01.920 --> 00:59:05.920 Listed separately for the No, it does not or has 913 00:59:06.000 --> 00:59:08.679 some other classifier for it where it says it's useful 914 00:59:08.719 --> 00:59:11.519 but not not not inspired. 915 00:59:12.519 --> 00:59:16.960 Remember, you might be thinking of Laodicea, but Canon eighty 916 00:59:17.000 --> 00:59:19.239 five does not specify that. Let me pull it up. 917 00:59:19.280 --> 00:59:24.159 We can make sure. Okay, let me let me. Let's 918 00:59:24.199 --> 00:59:25.880 make sure. Let me pull it up for the sake 919 00:59:25.920 --> 00:59:29.920 of the audience. Now, it is true that so I 920 00:59:29.960 --> 00:59:35.159 can't see it, just adds up. That's fine. It is 921 00:59:35.239 --> 00:59:40.159 true that there are some church father that state that 922 00:59:41.119 --> 00:59:44.119 the Deutero canon is useful for catech humans, right, So 923 00:59:44.199 --> 00:59:48.119 Athanasius says that, but that doesn't that also doesn't mean 924 00:59:48.159 --> 00:59:52.000 that it's not inspired or that it's not useful for theology, right, 925 00:59:52.119 --> 00:59:54.400 because why would you catechize people with it if it 926 00:59:54.480 --> 00:59:57.000 wasn't use useful for theology. So the fact that it's 927 00:59:57.119 --> 01:00:02.679 even called duetero canonical or secondary canons, there's no problem 928 01:00:02.760 --> 01:00:05.599 for us in the Orthodox Church saying that here's the 929 01:00:05.639 --> 01:00:08.719 Canon eighty five that was normative in the Eastern Church. 930 01:00:08.960 --> 01:00:11.679 In this collection of Church law. This is from about 931 01:00:11.719 --> 01:00:13.760 three hundred to four hundred a d. And it lists 932 01:00:15.119 --> 01:00:18.920 it says five books of Moses, and then it says 933 01:00:19.039 --> 01:00:24.559 Judges Joshua, Judges Ruth historical books. And then it says 934 01:00:25.320 --> 01:00:32.559 Judith Maccabees. It says too, but so it includes judithan Maccabees, 935 01:00:32.920 --> 01:00:35.760 and then it does not include Judith Maccabees amongst the 936 01:00:35.840 --> 01:00:38.920 ones that it says are recommended for young people young people, 937 01:00:39.000 --> 01:00:45.199 it says wisdom of syric So you notice that it's 938 01:00:45.320 --> 01:00:50.280 not the Dutero canon that's secondary and for Catechisis it 939 01:00:50.480 --> 01:00:54.840 just says wisdom is of syric is for catechisas, but 940 01:00:55.000 --> 01:00:59.119 it includes Maccabees and the other duterocononical texts as part 941 01:00:59.159 --> 01:00:59.639 of canon. 942 01:01:00.480 --> 01:01:03.519 So that means there was when the ecumenical councils went 943 01:01:03.599 --> 01:01:05.920 through any type of a theological position, they would use 944 01:01:06.119 --> 01:01:08.679 tudor canonical books for a. 945 01:01:08.719 --> 01:01:10.320 Defense or to make an argument. 946 01:01:15.159 --> 01:01:18.400 I know that many church fathers cite Dutero canonical texts 947 01:01:18.719 --> 01:01:20.280 for theological argumentation. 948 01:01:20.400 --> 01:01:22.079 Do you know if any of the College of Patriots 949 01:01:22.119 --> 01:01:24.000 would use it. I'm just I'm trying to go for 950 01:01:24.119 --> 01:01:25.119 more reference. 951 01:01:27.000 --> 01:01:28.599 Off the top of my head. I'm not sure of 952 01:01:28.800 --> 01:01:34.480 a ecumenical council citing Dutero canonical text, but ultimately it's 953 01:01:34.519 --> 01:01:36.719 not going to matter because what I'm arguing is that 954 01:01:37.719 --> 01:01:42.559 the councils of Carthage that include the duterocanonical text, which 955 01:01:42.639 --> 01:01:48.960 is identical to the local Romance Roman synod Counts canon, 956 01:01:49.039 --> 01:01:52.000 which is what Damasist is called the canon of Damasist, 957 01:01:52.039 --> 01:01:56.000 which is why Augustine posites his canon. That's the Carthaginian 958 01:01:56.119 --> 01:02:00.320 Western Latin canon that includes the Dutero canon without any distinction. 959 01:02:01.280 --> 01:02:04.639 And what I'm saying is that the Trollo Quinessex Council 960 01:02:04.719 --> 01:02:08.159 happens later on in the East, which affirms the Carthage canon, 961 01:02:08.960 --> 01:02:13.639 and then the Seventh Ecumenical Council for the Orthodox affirms 962 01:02:13.960 --> 01:02:19.400 Trollo and Carthage on this issue. So does that make sense? 963 01:02:19.480 --> 01:02:20.360 That's our perspective. 964 01:02:21.119 --> 01:02:23.199 Awesome, Okay, I got everything I need. I got to 965 01:02:23.199 --> 01:02:26.199 do more reading on So thank you man you brought me. 966 01:02:26.280 --> 01:02:29.360 Those are great questions and I'm always happy to kind 967 01:02:29.400 --> 01:02:33.960 of go through that logic process there because a lot 968 01:02:34.000 --> 01:02:38.199 of people are not familiar with these topics. Now, keep 969 01:02:38.239 --> 01:02:42.519 in mind, too, there are other earlier canon lists like 970 01:02:42.840 --> 01:02:49.440 that one one of the earliest ones that James White 971 01:02:53.159 --> 01:02:55.800 brings up in the Trent debate, and he ended up 972 01:02:55.800 --> 01:03:00.159 getting humiliated over this because he got it wrong. And 973 01:03:00.679 --> 01:03:03.559 I think it's the of Vicentian canon. Let's see here, 974 01:03:04.599 --> 01:03:07.480 or I'm a human LDO of artists, let's see. Yeah, 975 01:03:07.519 --> 01:03:11.800 So let's watch this because Sam Schimun calls out James 976 01:03:11.880 --> 01:03:16.239 White after the trent Horn debate on this very topic, 977 01:03:16.480 --> 01:03:20.840 because in the Trent Horn White debate, White says, oh, 978 01:03:21.679 --> 01:03:26.239 there's a canon you know list, that's the Protestant canon 979 01:03:26.320 --> 01:03:31.400 list the Old Testament early on with Meledo. But wait 980 01:03:31.440 --> 01:03:37.519 a minute, Meledo includes what White doesn't believe, so it 981 01:03:37.639 --> 01:03:41.840 was just wrong. He's so excited to Stary Gema take. 982 01:03:43.239 --> 01:03:43.559 Okay. 983 01:03:44.000 --> 01:03:50.239 Of Chronicles too, the Songs of David, the Proverbs of Solomon, Wisdom, 984 01:03:50.920 --> 01:03:58.320 also Ecclesiastes Song of Songs. 985 01:03:58.719 --> 01:04:02.360 So you understand this is James White arguing against Trent 986 01:04:02.440 --> 01:04:07.559 Horn that the Protestant Old Testament cannon is there early on, 987 01:04:08.840 --> 01:04:12.880 and it's I think it's Meldo's canon. Let's make sure 988 01:04:14.960 --> 01:04:23.000 Yeah takes it okay too. Meldo's canon is not the 989 01:04:23.119 --> 01:04:26.400 James White Protestant canon. So he just was wrong, and 990 01:04:27.280 --> 01:04:28.159 James White doesn't care. 991 01:04:28.360 --> 01:04:33.920 The songs of David, the proverbs of Solomon wisdom also 992 01:04:38.400 --> 01:04:40.960 Ecclesiastes song of Songs. 993 01:04:41.320 --> 01:04:41.599 Job. 994 01:04:45.800 --> 01:04:50.159 You remember he said this is the accurate canon. He 995 01:04:50.360 --> 01:04:58.000 got the accurate canon. He learned the accurate cannon, which 996 01:04:58.159 --> 01:05:03.719 means the Jews accepted the wisdom of Solomon as inspired scripture. 997 01:05:06.000 --> 01:05:08.599 See how you just buried himself. Some wan should make 998 01:05:08.639 --> 01:05:12.800 a clip out of this. He kept saying, accurate, this 999 01:05:12.960 --> 01:05:13.519 is accurate. 1000 01:05:13.760 --> 01:05:14.760 This is what they believe. 1001 01:05:15.199 --> 01:05:18.519 You just buried yourself, dude, because they accepted wisdom of 1002 01:05:18.599 --> 01:05:24.360 Solomon as part of their Old Testament as accurate canon, 1003 01:05:25.239 --> 01:05:34.079 and they accepted a scripture. Please gets a little better. 1004 01:05:35.239 --> 01:05:38.239 See that dis honesty of this man. Now watch here, 1005 01:05:38.880 --> 01:05:44.079 guess what is not included? Guess what is not included? 1006 01:05:45.719 --> 01:05:51.320 Pay attention of prophets Isaiah Jeremiah of the twelve Prophets, 1007 01:05:51.400 --> 01:05:57.320 one book Daniel Ezekiel Estras. Now some will say Estras 1008 01:05:57.400 --> 01:06:04.840 means Ezra Nehemiah, Thehemaiah. They're combined as one from which 1009 01:06:04.960 --> 01:06:07.480 also I've made dix tracks dividing them into six books. 1010 01:06:07.880 --> 01:06:11.440 Such are the words of Malito. Guess what he didn't find, folks, 1011 01:06:12.400 --> 01:06:17.239 he didn't find Esther. Esther was not in their canon. 1012 01:06:17.440 --> 01:06:20.400 So I say this, here's what I say. 1013 01:06:21.480 --> 01:06:24.079 Watch your watch your. 1014 01:06:25.880 --> 01:06:30.000 Note that Malito includes the Big of Wisdom as part 1015 01:06:30.039 --> 01:06:33.320 of the Old testing canon and does not include Esther. 1016 01:06:34.519 --> 01:06:38.159 This means that the accurate canonical list of books omit 1017 01:06:38.400 --> 01:06:44.039 a book accepted by Jamila and include alrighty rejected by Jimmy. 1018 01:06:45.000 --> 01:06:50.519 So there you go. James White owned himself in the 1019 01:06:50.599 --> 01:06:54.039 trent Horn debate by claiming that Melido of Artists had 1020 01:06:54.039 --> 01:06:56.239 the correct canon. He didn't even go and check to 1021 01:06:56.320 --> 01:06:59.519 see that it wasn't the Protestant canon for the Old Testament. 1022 01:07:00.639 --> 01:07:05.360 So hopefully again that's more AMO. But I also hope 1023 01:07:05.400 --> 01:07:09.880 it demonstrates the point that we were making earlier that 1024 01:07:10.920 --> 01:07:14.039 the canon isn't self authenticating because it doesn't even make sense. 1025 01:07:14.079 --> 01:07:20.239 And that's completely divorced from even the Protestant scholars who've 1026 01:07:20.280 --> 01:07:24.079 written books on the process of the canon. When you 1027 01:07:24.199 --> 01:07:27.679 read this process and how much debate there was to 1028 01:07:27.800 --> 01:07:30.000 then say, oh, but actually none of that was the case. 1029 01:07:30.039 --> 01:07:32.159 It was all just self authenticating, right, It's just kind 1030 01:07:32.159 --> 01:07:46.880 of like absurd christ supremacist. I hope these Protestants in 1031 01:07:46.960 --> 01:07:49.599 the YouTube chat are going to call in with all 1032 01:07:49.639 --> 01:07:52.320 this yappen? Are you there? 1033 01:07:52.400 --> 01:07:52.519 Man? 1034 01:07:52.519 --> 01:07:57.360 You gotta mute or what? Guys? If you want to 1035 01:07:57.400 --> 01:08:00.159 come on, you got to have your microphone capabilities turned on. 1036 01:08:00.360 --> 01:08:03.320 I don't like there's no one done a space before 1037 01:08:03.360 --> 01:08:06.199 on us on or something unism. You want to try again. 1038 01:08:08.320 --> 01:08:14.280 Remember we're not doing cticcumen questions today. This is for Protestants, Catholics, Muslims. 1039 01:08:14.280 --> 01:08:14.880 I disagree. 1040 01:08:16.720 --> 01:08:18.199 Hey Jay, how's it going good? 1041 01:08:18.239 --> 01:08:18.960 What's on your mind? 1042 01:08:20.640 --> 01:08:22.239 Thanks for having me on the show. First of all, 1043 01:08:22.319 --> 01:08:24.560 I might be one of those ignorant Protestants you were 1044 01:08:24.640 --> 01:08:27.880 talking about a minute ago, so I do apologize. I 1045 01:08:27.920 --> 01:08:29.520 gotta say though I'm a big fan of the show. 1046 01:08:29.560 --> 01:08:30.840 I really appreciate what you do. 1047 01:08:31.119 --> 01:08:33.720 So I don't know that I'm qualified to speak with you, 1048 01:08:34.359 --> 01:08:36.000 but I just want to come on the show and 1049 01:08:36.399 --> 01:08:38.840 kind of talk about something like that you're talking to 1050 01:08:38.920 --> 01:08:45.199 the last speaker about, Okay, specifically that I understand that 1051 01:08:45.439 --> 01:08:50.199 the canon may not be self authenticating as such, or 1052 01:08:50.319 --> 01:08:52.840 like you were just saying, like it's important the work 1053 01:08:52.920 --> 01:08:55.960 that the early Church fathers and counsels had to go 1054 01:08:56.199 --> 01:09:00.680 through to establish the canon was necessary. We can all 1055 01:09:00.760 --> 01:09:03.840 agree on that. But it's maybe, and I hope I 1056 01:09:03.880 --> 01:09:07.600 can express this or articulate this correctly. It's not as 1057 01:09:07.680 --> 01:09:14.000 though because they decided that that's the canon, that that 1058 01:09:14.319 --> 01:09:18.479 power is in them, they more or less did the 1059 01:09:18.640 --> 01:09:22.199 leg work that allows us to look back and say, yes, 1060 01:09:22.319 --> 01:09:25.680 they did make the correct decisions in establishing the canon. 1061 01:09:25.840 --> 01:09:25.960 Right. 1062 01:09:26.000 --> 01:09:30.239 But the thing is that for Protestantism, classical Protestantism, no 1063 01:09:30.560 --> 01:09:36.680 post Apostolic writing or teaching is binding necessary and can 1064 01:09:36.800 --> 01:09:39.199 bind your conscience. And so if you're a Protestant and 1065 01:09:39.239 --> 01:09:42.439 you believe Classical Reformation doctrine a freedom of conscience and 1066 01:09:42.520 --> 01:09:46.199 right to private interpretation, there's nothing stopping you from creating 1067 01:09:46.279 --> 01:09:49.239 your own private canon that you prayed about and that 1068 01:09:49.319 --> 01:09:50.239 the Holy Spirit led. 1069 01:09:50.119 --> 01:09:50.439 You to have. 1070 01:09:51.039 --> 01:09:54.319 So you see how That's why it's I agree with 1071 01:09:54.439 --> 01:09:57.960 you that when the church fathers are quote, recognizing what's canonical, 1072 01:09:58.119 --> 01:10:02.520 they're not making it inspired. They're recognizing what is inspired. 1073 01:10:02.880 --> 01:10:06.520 But they're also given the authority to bind and to loose, 1074 01:10:07.079 --> 01:10:09.840 and thus can bind you to the decision of what 1075 01:10:10.079 --> 01:10:14.000 is canonical versus what is not. And that's a normative claim. 1076 01:10:14.039 --> 01:10:17.479 That's normativity in terms of ethics versus the question of 1077 01:10:18.079 --> 01:10:22.079 individual discovery of certitude or inspiration or whatever. That's a 1078 01:10:22.159 --> 01:10:26.039 separate question from like the Supreme Court. Does the Supreme 1079 01:10:26.119 --> 01:10:28.600 Court have the right to or to bind people to 1080 01:10:28.840 --> 01:10:32.560 the interpretation of the Constitution. We're saying Jesus gave to 1081 01:10:32.800 --> 01:10:36.880 his institutional body, the Church, the ability to bind people 1082 01:10:37.000 --> 01:10:38.159 to these decisions. 1083 01:10:39.800 --> 01:10:41.840 I think that's well said, and I think that's a 1084 01:10:41.880 --> 01:10:46.239 perfect metaphor of a Supreme Court. In some sense, though, 1085 01:10:46.319 --> 01:10:48.239 if we had a Supreme let's let's say we had 1086 01:10:48.279 --> 01:10:51.039 a rogue Supreme Court under Biden. He put in, like, 1087 01:10:51.279 --> 01:10:55.560 you know, six or seven crazy Supreme Court people, we 1088 01:10:55.600 --> 01:10:58.880 would still know that the Constitution itself is what we 1089 01:10:59.039 --> 01:11:03.039 hold to. And the errancy, let's say, of the Supreme 1090 01:11:03.159 --> 01:11:05.800 Court tells us that they're not. 1091 01:11:07.319 --> 01:11:07.479 Right. 1092 01:11:07.479 --> 01:11:10.399 You know, in some sense, I'm saying, you know, let's 1093 01:11:10.399 --> 01:11:13.760 speak purely about the Catholic Church, right popes that put 1094 01:11:13.800 --> 01:11:18.960 into different councils or bulls or whatever that you know, 1095 01:11:19.079 --> 01:11:21.279 the lady should not read the scripture, or they shouldn't 1096 01:11:21.319 --> 01:11:24.359 read it without the clergy, or it shouldn't be translated 1097 01:11:24.439 --> 01:11:28.640 into the common parlance or whatever. Partisans look at that 1098 01:11:28.680 --> 01:11:32.119 and say, okay, well, clearly this is against what this 1099 01:11:32.279 --> 01:11:35.640 is against what the scriptures are about. And so in 1100 01:11:35.760 --> 01:11:39.399 some sense that I would say, not entirely undermines the 1101 01:11:39.479 --> 01:11:43.039 idea of apostolic succession, but it at least says, what's 1102 01:11:43.119 --> 01:11:44.319 more important than. 1103 01:11:44.279 --> 01:11:48.079 The change, Right, I understand where you're going with this. 1104 01:11:48.279 --> 01:11:52.199 It undermines the notion of papal authority, which is a 1105 01:11:52.319 --> 01:11:56.359 different principle of unity and authority than the Protestant except 1106 01:11:56.439 --> 01:12:01.159 that actually, with Protestantism it's the individual this private interpretation. 1107 01:12:01.479 --> 01:12:05.479 With Catholicism, it's the papacy telling you. And the unique 1108 01:12:05.479 --> 01:12:09.479 position of the Orthodox Church is that it's communal and sinodal. 1109 01:12:10.039 --> 01:12:13.239 And we would argue that we are the actual historical church. 1110 01:12:13.319 --> 01:12:15.560 When there's an issue that comes up in Acts fifteen, 1111 01:12:15.720 --> 01:12:18.760 it's a synod. It's not one guy being an autocrat. 1112 01:12:18.880 --> 01:12:21.600 It's a synod. And we'd argue that if you look 1113 01:12:21.600 --> 01:12:24.119 at the promises that Jesus makes to the church, he says, 1114 01:12:24.199 --> 01:12:26.880 I will send you the Spirit the Helper, I will 1115 01:12:27.000 --> 01:12:29.760 never leave you, I will not forsake you. I will 1116 01:12:29.800 --> 01:12:31.640 be with you until the end of the age, the 1117 01:12:31.720 --> 01:12:34.880 spirit will guide you into all truth. That's a promise 1118 01:12:35.000 --> 01:12:38.119 made to the actual college of the apostles, not just 1119 01:12:38.199 --> 01:12:41.640 a Peter, but the whole college. And so their successor 1120 01:12:41.720 --> 01:12:46.000 is not in any individual person, but in their collective body. 1121 01:12:46.079 --> 01:12:49.720 In college cannot fall away. So the Orthodox conception of 1122 01:12:49.840 --> 01:12:52.359 the Church not being able to fall away is a 1123 01:12:52.960 --> 01:12:58.720 collective idea, not individual bishops being exempted from this warning. 1124 01:12:59.279 --> 01:13:01.680 And so no, we would not say that the Bishop 1125 01:13:01.720 --> 01:13:06.760 of Rome has sole title to this promise of not 1126 01:13:07.000 --> 01:13:10.399 falling away. Right, Jesus promises to the whole college, to 1127 01:13:10.520 --> 01:13:14.640 the whole body. But yes, absolutely a bishop, a group 1128 01:13:14.680 --> 01:13:17.479 of bishops can fall away, but never the entire collective 1129 01:13:18.119 --> 01:13:20.159 institution of the bishops themselves. 1130 01:13:20.239 --> 01:13:25.039 No, well said, Well said, well, what do you say 1131 01:13:25.079 --> 01:13:27.159 about Galatians one to one where? And I know this 1132 01:13:27.319 --> 01:13:31.560 is obviously apostolic times. So when Paul says Paul, I 1133 01:13:31.800 --> 01:13:35.880 Paul an apostle, not from men nor through man, but 1134 01:13:36.039 --> 01:13:39.319 through Jesus Christ and God the Father, in some sense, 1135 01:13:39.520 --> 01:13:41.600 I do look at Paul. You maybe heard this before, 1136 01:13:41.640 --> 01:13:45.039 but like Paul is someone who wasn't walking with Jesus 1137 01:13:45.199 --> 01:13:49.560 during Jesus's ministry. He's almost the prototype of every believer 1138 01:13:49.720 --> 01:13:54.399 that comes after Jesus's time, Right, he wasn't obviously he 1139 01:13:54.479 --> 01:13:56.560 saw Jesus, but he wasn't walking with him. 1140 01:13:56.920 --> 01:13:59.039 He's like the prototype believer. 1141 01:13:59.439 --> 01:14:01.960 For well, I mean we can say that, we can 1142 01:14:02.079 --> 01:14:05.399 say that any person in the Bible is in some way, 1143 01:14:06.119 --> 01:14:08.840 perhaps any faithful person in the Bible is in some 1144 01:14:08.960 --> 01:14:12.039 way a prototype of a believer. I mean, even Rahab 1145 01:14:12.119 --> 01:14:15.199 the harlot is a prototype of a gentile believer, according 1146 01:14:15.239 --> 01:14:18.119 to you know, the Church fathers. But that doesn't it 1147 01:14:18.199 --> 01:14:21.439 doesn't follow from that that every office that they possess 1148 01:14:21.720 --> 01:14:24.640 thus then transfers over to every future believer. Right, So 1149 01:14:24.800 --> 01:14:29.199 I'm not a member of the episcopate, so not everything 1150 01:14:29.239 --> 01:14:33.319 that occurs in the church that is for a member 1151 01:14:33.319 --> 01:14:36.000 of the episcopate applies to me. And no, we would 1152 01:14:36.039 --> 01:14:39.079 say that there's twelve apostles, and if you look at 1153 01:14:39.800 --> 01:14:44.159 the church, for example, the Book of Revelation, it's a 1154 01:14:44.359 --> 01:14:48.800 giant city with twelve foundation stones, with twelve apostles names 1155 01:14:48.920 --> 01:14:53.319 on those foundation stones. So you must be specifically a 1156 01:14:53.399 --> 01:14:56.680 member of that twelve to be what Jesus calls the 1157 01:14:56.960 --> 01:14:59.520 princes of the Church calls you he says, you will 1158 01:14:59.600 --> 01:15:02.479 judge the twelve tribes of Israel when you get when 1159 01:15:02.520 --> 01:15:05.800 he is in the upper room talking to them, And 1160 01:15:05.960 --> 01:15:08.560 we would say that that means that they're they're the 1161 01:15:08.680 --> 01:15:12.319 foundation stone. So that's a unique role. And Paul was 1162 01:15:12.399 --> 01:15:15.000 called to that apostleship, but not everybody in the church. 1163 01:15:15.159 --> 01:15:16.319 It has the role of being Paul. 1164 01:15:17.479 --> 01:15:21.000 No, No, clearly, not clearly not. What about this? Maybe 1165 01:15:21.039 --> 01:15:24.640 I can pose this not so much as maybe I 1166 01:15:24.680 --> 01:15:26.079 can kind of post this as a question. 1167 01:15:27.039 --> 01:15:31.239 In Mark seven to eight crists you leave the commandment 1168 01:15:31.359 --> 01:15:34.760 of God and hold to the tradition of men. Now, 1169 01:15:34.800 --> 01:15:37.960 I don't throw that out to say that that's what 1170 01:15:38.039 --> 01:15:39.840 we're talking about, but I more so to say in 1171 01:15:40.680 --> 01:15:42.680 is there any sense in which you look at the 1172 01:15:43.000 --> 01:15:46.880 Eastern Orthodox Church today and say there are places, not 1173 01:15:47.079 --> 01:15:50.479 in terms of solar scripture or whatever, but just maybe 1174 01:15:50.560 --> 01:15:53.800 more broadly in which they're holding more to the tradition 1175 01:15:53.960 --> 01:15:56.439 of men rather than the commandment of God. 1176 01:15:56.920 --> 01:15:57.920 Is there any Oh? 1177 01:15:58.039 --> 01:16:01.039 Yeah, no, So I think Phariseeism and legalism could be 1178 01:16:01.640 --> 01:16:07.439 present anywhere. You know, Jesus in fact warns the disciples themselves, right, 1179 01:16:07.680 --> 01:16:12.039 the very foundation stones of the church are warned about 1180 01:16:12.039 --> 01:16:15.680 the possibility of the leaven of the Pharisees, which is 1181 01:16:15.840 --> 01:16:20.199 self righteousness, and uh, you know, majoring on the miners, 1182 01:16:20.279 --> 01:16:23.520 obsessing over minutia versus the bigger issues, the weightier matters 1183 01:16:23.560 --> 01:16:26.359 of the law. That could happen to anybody anywhere. You 1184 01:16:26.439 --> 01:16:28.920 could be in a monastics situation and you could have 1185 01:16:30.239 --> 01:16:33.399 you know, pharisaic legalism in the monastic realm. You could 1186 01:16:33.399 --> 01:16:36.840 have people getting pharasaical about the you know, fasting in 1187 01:16:36.880 --> 01:16:39.439 the church that happens all the time. People get pharisaical 1188 01:16:39.479 --> 01:16:43.199 about you know, calendar dates and issues in the Orthodox Church. 1189 01:16:43.279 --> 01:16:46.560 That happens all the time. So absolutely, yeah, But even 1190 01:16:47.479 --> 01:16:51.319 that happening in you know, various localized places or settings, 1191 01:16:52.000 --> 01:17:02.239 even that that doesn't destroy the collective promise to the church. Nick, Nick, mh, 1192 01:17:02.359 --> 01:17:12.880 what's up? Yeah, I'm you. I would add two that 1193 01:17:13.119 --> 01:17:16.039 that same section you're talking about Mark, but in Matthew, 1194 01:17:16.079 --> 01:17:19.359 it's Matthew twenty three when he's rebuking the Pharisees. Even 1195 01:17:19.399 --> 01:17:22.600 there he appeals to tradition. Go ahead, and now what's up. 1196 01:17:26.039 --> 01:17:26.359 You there? 1197 01:17:30.800 --> 01:17:32.359 Nick? Yeah, what's up? 1198 01:17:36.279 --> 01:17:36.600 My bad? 1199 01:17:36.600 --> 01:17:38.159 I was having some trouble. 1200 01:17:39.279 --> 01:17:40.319 Sorry, if the background is. 1201 01:17:40.399 --> 01:17:42.079 Too loud to just kick me or whatnot. 1202 01:17:43.079 --> 01:17:47.560 So I'm I'm a Protestant right now, but I'm looking 1203 01:17:47.760 --> 01:17:51.079 into the Orthodox rash and I kind of got some questions. 1204 01:17:51.880 --> 01:17:54.920 I ran across some crazy interpretations in the past, and 1205 01:17:55.159 --> 01:17:55.880 this would. 1206 01:17:57.399 --> 01:17:59.720 There's a guy named Johnny Chang. I don't know if 1207 01:17:59.720 --> 01:18:00.439 you ever heard of him. 1208 01:18:03.000 --> 01:18:05.239 He's just he has a whole bunch of followers and 1209 01:18:05.479 --> 01:18:07.000 has a really good testimony. 1210 01:18:07.079 --> 01:18:07.760 But he. 1211 01:18:09.840 --> 01:18:11.920 Made a question about the Lord's prayer. 1212 01:18:12.119 --> 01:18:13.600 I kind of wanted to see what you would say 1213 01:18:13.640 --> 01:18:13.960 about it. 1214 01:18:14.479 --> 01:18:16.479 He said that we don't have to pray the Lord's 1215 01:18:16.520 --> 01:18:21.560 prayer because it was a past tense prayer, Like how 1216 01:18:21.640 --> 01:18:22.199 it says. 1217 01:18:22.039 --> 01:18:24.760 Like that Kingdom come, that will be done, that like 1218 01:18:25.119 --> 01:18:26.039 the will of the. 1219 01:18:26.079 --> 01:18:28.600 Father already came in the kingdom. So I kind of 1220 01:18:28.640 --> 01:18:30.079 want to see what your input is on that. 1221 01:18:31.079 --> 01:18:33.840 Uh No, I mean, Jesus says pray in this wise, 1222 01:18:34.159 --> 01:18:36.439 So if it was a past tense thing, he wouldn't 1223 01:18:36.439 --> 01:18:40.399 have said told him to pray in this way. Every 1224 01:18:40.520 --> 01:18:45.319 church in history has prayed the Our Father and the 1225 01:18:45.439 --> 01:18:48.199 Kingdom of God is not just a present reality, it's 1226 01:18:48.279 --> 01:18:51.960 also an eschatological reality. This is called already not yet 1227 01:18:52.039 --> 01:18:55.920 in the theological language. So Jesus brought the eschatological reality 1228 01:18:55.960 --> 01:18:58.000 of the kingdom now, which is in the Divine Liturgy. 1229 01:18:58.439 --> 01:19:03.279 That's a foretaste of it. But the final full sense 1230 01:19:03.359 --> 01:19:06.680 of the eschological reality is at the Second Coming. So 1231 01:19:06.760 --> 01:19:12.159 it's a both and Jonathan Bursea, but good questions and 1232 01:19:12.239 --> 01:19:14.319 tell Johnny Chang or whatever his name is, tell them 1233 01:19:14.359 --> 01:19:15.600 to come in here, give them the link and tell 1234 01:19:15.640 --> 01:19:18.880 them to come come chat. I just boot these people 1235 01:19:18.920 --> 01:19:22.359 who are like spamming. If they don't, if they won't 1236 01:19:22.399 --> 01:19:23.920 come to bay, just get them out of here. They're 1237 01:19:23.960 --> 01:19:27.600 just wasting everybody's time. Nobody's going to convert from your 1238 01:19:27.720 --> 01:19:32.039 Protestants spamming the chat. And I've been hearing your arguments 1239 01:19:32.119 --> 01:19:32.800 for twenty years. 1240 01:19:33.039 --> 01:19:34.000 I know, I know. 1241 01:19:34.960 --> 01:19:35.800 Go ahead, man, what's up? 1242 01:19:37.279 --> 01:19:40.399 Hey, I'm a first time calling in and I got 1243 01:19:40.439 --> 01:19:41.279 a weird question for you. 1244 01:19:41.640 --> 01:19:41.880 Okay. 1245 01:19:42.000 --> 01:19:46.399 I used to be Protestant. Nine years ago I left 1246 01:19:46.439 --> 01:19:48.319 the church because of what I'm going to describe you. 1247 01:19:50.119 --> 01:19:51.600 I went to one of the leaders of my church, 1248 01:19:51.680 --> 01:19:55.800 pastor and a deacon, because I had questions about why 1249 01:19:56.039 --> 01:20:00.720 there were women pastors in the church, and they basically 1250 01:20:00.840 --> 01:20:03.119 said I was too legalistic and I needed to go 1251 01:20:03.279 --> 01:20:08.680 reread acts about Peter's dream, and they kind of ignored 1252 01:20:08.760 --> 01:20:09.279 me after that. 1253 01:20:10.399 --> 01:20:15.039 What would Peter? So the analogy is that Peter's dream 1254 01:20:15.279 --> 01:20:18.399 was a change of dietary law. So now we have 1255 01:20:19.239 --> 01:20:21.920 the dream of women pastors. So that's I mean, that's 1256 01:20:22.279 --> 01:20:23.159 is that what they arguing? 1257 01:20:24.640 --> 01:20:26.640 Yeah, that's kind of the sense that I got. Like, 1258 01:20:27.079 --> 01:20:30.680 my my viewpoint was like, he's the dreams or vision 1259 01:20:30.800 --> 01:20:33.560 is only about like food. It's not about like women 1260 01:20:33.640 --> 01:20:37.600 pastors or homosexuality of the church or anything. So what 1261 01:20:38.520 --> 01:20:41.199 what would you say if somebody like clapped back at 1262 01:20:41.199 --> 01:20:41.520 you with that. 1263 01:20:42.600 --> 01:20:45.560 Well, like we'd explained in the Mormon's dream the other night, 1264 01:20:46.800 --> 01:20:50.279 there's a finality to divine revelation first and foremost, So 1265 01:20:50.479 --> 01:20:53.920 when the last apostle died, there are no no new 1266 01:20:54.039 --> 01:21:00.840 divine revelations in the sense of public theological binding ideas 1267 01:21:01.800 --> 01:21:05.439 any for us, any say, Ecumenical Council of the Orthodox Church. 1268 01:21:06.000 --> 01:21:09.119 It's not a new divine revelation. It's really just specifying 1269 01:21:09.199 --> 01:21:12.840 and explicating what the Church has already taught in its 1270 01:21:12.880 --> 01:21:17.319 apostolic deposits. So, for example, Zecharai thirteen Daniel nine twenty 1271 01:21:17.399 --> 01:21:23.399 four Jude three Glatians one. You look at those passages 1272 01:21:23.520 --> 01:21:26.960 and you see that there is a finality to what 1273 01:21:27.079 --> 01:21:31.479 we call revelation, and that right there cuts off any 1274 01:21:31.880 --> 01:21:36.560 cult claiming new revelations. Now you're talking about liberal Protestant 1275 01:21:36.640 --> 01:21:39.520 churches who say that there could be a new truth 1276 01:21:39.640 --> 01:21:43.920 about you know, skittle stuff or women preachers or whatever. No, 1277 01:21:44.159 --> 01:21:47.000 first of all, that's outlandish to begin with, because we 1278 01:21:47.079 --> 01:21:49.560 can cut off all the cults with whether it's the 1279 01:21:49.640 --> 01:21:52.479 Mormons or whether it's the Muslims with their new prophets. 1280 01:21:52.760 --> 01:21:57.319 There are no new profits. Profits are done prophets. Jesus 1281 01:21:57.319 --> 01:22:00.000 says in Luke sixteen sixteen that John was the life 1282 01:22:00.039 --> 01:22:03.279 asked of the prophets, so there's no such thing as 1283 01:22:03.359 --> 01:22:06.880 an Old Testament prophet. And when John the Apostle died, 1284 01:22:07.279 --> 01:22:10.520 there's no more new Apostolic teachings or revelations. That's why 1285 01:22:10.680 --> 01:22:17.119 cults like Mormons or Muslims require new divine revelation that 1286 01:22:17.680 --> 01:22:20.760 compliments or quote corrects the old revelations. 1287 01:22:22.840 --> 01:22:25.560 Awesome, I guess I have one more follow up question 1288 01:22:25.640 --> 01:22:27.279 because of that, and and sorry. 1289 01:22:27.039 --> 01:22:27.960 If it's really stupid. 1290 01:22:28.039 --> 01:22:29.720 I'm a. 1291 01:22:31.319 --> 01:22:31.920 Good questions. 1292 01:22:32.399 --> 01:22:35.600 So in that guard, then, isn't. 1293 01:22:35.479 --> 01:22:37.560 One of the fruits of the spirit prophecy? 1294 01:22:37.920 --> 01:22:41.000 Or maybe I just have been right, but that's right. 1295 01:22:41.079 --> 01:22:44.279 So that's during the period this is called the Intertestamental 1296 01:22:44.279 --> 01:22:47.000 period between the Old Testament New Testament, right when the 1297 01:22:47.079 --> 01:22:50.560 Church is being established at Pentecost. In the Book of 1298 01:22:50.640 --> 01:22:53.960 Acts Paul's writing to the Corinthians. Yes, at that time 1299 01:22:54.239 --> 01:22:56.720 it was necessary that there be a lot of these 1300 01:22:56.920 --> 01:22:59.840 manifestations like that, and so you could have the Holy 1301 01:23:00.039 --> 01:23:03.079 Spirit speaking through Agabus the prophet in the Book of Acts, 1302 01:23:03.119 --> 01:23:07.520 for example, or whatever. But that is still that period 1303 01:23:07.840 --> 01:23:12.159 prior to the death of the last Apostle John, And 1304 01:23:12.399 --> 01:23:15.199 I don't think it's accidental. It's providential that at the 1305 01:23:15.319 --> 01:23:19.319 end of John's Book of Revelation he says, don't add 1306 01:23:19.399 --> 01:23:22.039 to this, there's no more adding to the divine revelation. 1307 01:23:22.159 --> 01:23:24.680 So that kind of is the ceiling up a vision 1308 01:23:24.760 --> 01:23:27.079 and prophecy that we read in Daniel nine twenty four 1309 01:23:27.079 --> 01:23:29.319 to twenty seven. It says in the Messianic era, when 1310 01:23:29.319 --> 01:23:31.960 the Messiah comms, there will be a ceiling up of 1311 01:23:33.079 --> 01:23:36.720 vision and prophecy in the sense a public divine revelation. 1312 01:23:37.520 --> 01:23:39.960 And what binds everybody. That doesn't mean that there's no 1313 01:23:40.079 --> 01:23:41.960 more miracles. There could be a miracle. God can do 1314 01:23:42.039 --> 01:23:45.920 what he wants. God can give a saint a dream 1315 01:23:46.000 --> 01:23:48.760 or a vision of a clairvoyance or whatever. But that's 1316 01:23:48.920 --> 01:23:53.039 different from public divine revelation that binds everyone in the church. 1317 01:23:53.359 --> 01:23:56.239 And we know that because in the second and third 1318 01:23:56.319 --> 01:23:59.279 century there was a group that arose called the Montanists, 1319 01:24:00.039 --> 01:24:03.239 and Montanus claimed to be a new prophet who was 1320 01:24:03.319 --> 01:24:07.399 given new divine revelations in the church. Out out of 1321 01:24:07.479 --> 01:24:08.920 hand rejected Montanism. 1322 01:24:11.840 --> 01:24:13.079 Man, I'm gonna be honest. 1323 01:24:13.199 --> 01:24:15.520 You used a lot of things that I honestly have 1324 01:24:15.720 --> 01:24:18.079 not heard of or words that I haven't heard over before. 1325 01:24:18.239 --> 01:24:21.479 But listening to you and other Orthodox. 1326 01:24:22.520 --> 01:24:25.479 Public figures has has encouraged me to go get. 1327 01:24:25.680 --> 01:24:28.199 Yeah, well just yeah, I really appreciate it. Yeah, get 1328 01:24:28.199 --> 01:24:30.439 an orthodox study by it will take your time, you know, 1329 01:24:30.520 --> 01:24:32.039 write some of the ideas down if you want to 1330 01:24:32.079 --> 01:24:33.199 go double check it or whatever. 1331 01:24:33.760 --> 01:24:33.920 You know. 1332 01:24:34.039 --> 01:24:36.479 The the idea of Montanism is is, you know, just 1333 01:24:36.560 --> 01:24:38.960 look up what the histor just just even Wikipedia would 1334 01:24:39.000 --> 01:24:42.239 be good on something like Montanas M. O. N. T. A. 1335 01:24:42.319 --> 01:24:48.520 And US and the Montanists and that early charismatic movement 1336 01:24:48.800 --> 01:24:52.760 of the second third century, which by the way, claimed 1337 01:24:52.920 --> 01:24:56.199 Tertullian as one of its member. Totullian left the church 1338 01:24:56.399 --> 01:25:00.920 and became a Montanist. And so this early version of charismaticism, 1339 01:25:01.000 --> 01:25:03.520 by the way, it also shows that all the crazy 1340 01:25:03.560 --> 01:25:06.399 heresies that we see today, they were already there in 1341 01:25:06.479 --> 01:25:09.039 the early Church in the fourth, fifth, sixth, seventh century. 1342 01:25:09.199 --> 01:25:11.520 Even in the first and second century. You got the 1343 01:25:11.640 --> 01:25:16.239 Judaizers like Bryce and Gray, you got the charismatic like 1344 01:25:17.319 --> 01:25:22.640 Joseph Smith, Ellen White Pentecostals. All of these mistakes were 1345 01:25:22.680 --> 01:25:26.359 already there and already rejected. Truth talker, by the way, 1346 01:25:26.399 --> 01:25:28.560 give me just one second. It's freezing Colin here, gonna 1347 01:25:28.600 --> 01:25:39.239 turn the air conditioning down. All right, truth talker, what's up? 1348 01:25:39.279 --> 01:25:42.000 Man gonna? I'm you hey, but sorry, I didn't hear 1349 01:25:42.039 --> 01:25:45.039 you speaking. There must have been a delay. What's on 1350 01:25:45.079 --> 01:25:45.640 your question? 1351 01:25:46.159 --> 01:25:47.119 You know, I just had a question. 1352 01:25:47.319 --> 01:25:50.760 I'm just joining the space last few minutes and having 1353 01:25:50.800 --> 01:25:53.600 heard the first part of it. So I grew up 1354 01:25:53.960 --> 01:25:59.279 Southern Baptist, me too, and uh so I'm curiously that's 1355 01:25:59.319 --> 01:26:03.199 been called so you know, I believe I know I've 1356 01:26:03.199 --> 01:26:05.079 been reading up on you know some of the some 1357 01:26:05.199 --> 01:26:08.439 of the early even Catholic church fathers, and you know, 1358 01:26:08.760 --> 01:26:10.920 not so much Orthodox, but I'm reading up. 1359 01:26:10.880 --> 01:26:12.800 On that, and well, well we have the same church 1360 01:26:12.880 --> 01:26:15.960 fathers for the first thousand years, so right, right. 1361 01:26:15.920 --> 01:26:19.960 Right, So so to my knowledge, we believe the same obviously, 1362 01:26:20.159 --> 01:26:21.600 you know, the Trinity, the Triyan God. 1363 01:26:21.880 --> 01:26:22.039 Right. 1364 01:26:22.279 --> 01:26:25.239 So when when the titles Protestism is false, I just 1365 01:26:25.399 --> 01:26:26.319 real quickly. 1366 01:26:26.039 --> 01:26:27.399 I mean, not to go too long, but what do 1367 01:26:27.479 --> 01:26:28.079 you mean by that? 1368 01:26:28.239 --> 01:26:29.920 And then I had a couple of follow. 1369 01:26:29.800 --> 01:26:33.640 Up questions, Well, uh, it's true that in terms of 1370 01:26:34.479 --> 01:26:37.199 what we verbally say, when we say we believe in 1371 01:26:37.199 --> 01:26:39.560 the deed of Christ and the Trinity, that's true that, yes, 1372 01:26:39.800 --> 01:26:44.439 we agree Protestant, Catholic, Orthodox, everybody agrees that there is 1373 01:26:44.600 --> 01:26:47.880 a Trinity and that Jesus is divine. But actually the 1374 01:26:48.359 --> 01:26:50.680 Orthodox doctrine of the Trinity is not the same as 1375 01:26:50.720 --> 01:26:54.399 the Doctor and Trinity in either Protestantism or Roman Catholicism. 1376 01:26:54.479 --> 01:26:56.439 So we have a unique doctrine of the Trinity which 1377 01:26:56.520 --> 01:27:00.760 posits a strict view of monarchical trinitarianism and the rejection 1378 01:27:00.960 --> 01:27:03.680 of the philioque, as well as the doctrine of the 1379 01:27:03.760 --> 01:27:08.359 uncreated energies. Those are essential, absolutely necessary teachings of the 1380 01:27:08.439 --> 01:27:11.880 Orthodox Church about who the Trinity and who Jesus are. 1381 01:27:13.840 --> 01:27:19.560 And also Protestantism classically speaking or in terms of historical 1382 01:27:19.640 --> 01:27:23.960 Protestanism is defined by its confessions, and so this is 1383 01:27:24.000 --> 01:27:27.760 called classical Protestanism. Even the Southern Baptists have the Southern 1384 01:27:27.800 --> 01:27:32.720 Baptist Statement of Faith everything something like that. So even 1385 01:27:32.760 --> 01:27:36.680 they have like a general layout of the principles that 1386 01:27:36.760 --> 01:27:44.600 they believe, you know, confessional Protestantism, whether it's Lutheran, Methodist, Presbyterian, Anglican, 1387 01:27:44.800 --> 01:27:48.920 they all have their public professions of faith. And we 1388 01:27:49.000 --> 01:27:53.760 would disagree with the solas solofide, you know, sol scriptura. 1389 01:27:54.359 --> 01:27:56.640 We would also disagree with the notion of the rights 1390 01:27:56.680 --> 01:28:02.399 to private interpretation. We would disagree with a totally unbounded 1391 01:28:02.520 --> 01:28:05.439 notion of freedom of contents of worship that the classical 1392 01:28:05.520 --> 01:28:10.039 reformers taught. So there's a lot of different ways that 1393 01:28:10.159 --> 01:28:12.880 that discussion could go, but those are the basics. 1394 01:28:13.720 --> 01:28:19.079 So I would agree that there's probably some differences, I think, 1395 01:28:19.119 --> 01:28:22.159 though I think that the main I think the main 1396 01:28:22.199 --> 01:28:24.560 point I want to maybe go with you on just 1397 01:28:24.600 --> 01:28:26.960 for a couple of minutes is the you know, uh, 1398 01:28:27.399 --> 01:28:30.600 the solo interpretation, I think, at least in my church. 1399 01:28:30.680 --> 01:28:34.479 So I'll speak on my personal experience. My pastor used 1400 01:28:34.479 --> 01:28:36.720 to say, even at a very young age, for myself, 1401 01:28:36.800 --> 01:28:39.479 there's no such thing as your personal interpretation. There's only 1402 01:28:39.560 --> 01:28:42.640 the truth, and then there's false interpretations of the doctrine. 1403 01:28:42.720 --> 01:28:42.840 Right. 1404 01:28:43.000 --> 01:28:47.279 So do you think that what you said about how 1405 01:28:47.319 --> 01:28:49.720 the Protestant churches kind of have their own Oh, this 1406 01:28:49.880 --> 01:28:51.800 is what I got, this is what I feel about. 1407 01:28:51.960 --> 01:28:54.039 Is that unique to a. 1408 01:28:54.079 --> 01:28:55.880 Small number of churches or do you think that that's 1409 01:28:56.079 --> 01:28:59.279 just kind of a whole of Protestant faith of Well, 1410 01:28:59.359 --> 01:29:01.560 I don't need I don't need the clergy to tell me. 1411 01:29:01.880 --> 01:29:02.920 Well, I don't need scholars and. 1412 01:29:02.920 --> 01:29:03.680 Tell me what this means. 1413 01:29:03.720 --> 01:29:04.760 This is how I feel about it. 1414 01:29:04.840 --> 01:29:06.119 Is that is that kind of what you think is? 1415 01:29:06.319 --> 01:29:08.039 Well, I mean it could apply to that, but I 1416 01:29:08.119 --> 01:29:11.720 mean beyond just that question of I understand that many 1417 01:29:11.760 --> 01:29:16.359 Protestants and Evangelicals would would recognize some degree of authority 1418 01:29:16.479 --> 01:29:20.880 for elders and you know, pastors and presbyters. But I'm 1419 01:29:20.920 --> 01:29:24.960 saying it's a fundamentally different principle of church governance. It's 1420 01:29:24.960 --> 01:29:29.960 an episcopate, it's Apostolic succession. It's the necessity of Apostolic 1421 01:29:30.039 --> 01:29:33.079 tradition to know what the Biblical canon is, for example, 1422 01:29:33.199 --> 01:29:35.600 hence why we have more books than the Protestant canon. 1423 01:29:36.000 --> 01:29:38.199 So all of those elements go into it, as well 1424 01:29:38.319 --> 01:29:43.000 as the separate issue of the successors to the apostles 1425 01:29:43.119 --> 01:29:46.199 not just having the right to state their opinions, but 1426 01:29:46.319 --> 01:29:49.079 actually to bind people to an interpretation. So for example, 1427 01:29:49.119 --> 01:29:51.560 at the Council of Nicia, they don't just kind of 1428 01:29:51.600 --> 01:29:54.359 give an option for Arias and say, look, Arius, it'd 1429 01:29:54.359 --> 01:29:56.560 be nice if you agreed with us, but if not, 1430 01:29:56.880 --> 01:29:59.520 you can go start. You know, the Aryan stripmall church, 1431 01:29:59.760 --> 01:30:03.239 you know, if you want no. They believe that they 1432 01:30:03.359 --> 01:30:06.239 have the authority, like Paul told the church at Corinth 1433 01:30:06.359 --> 01:30:10.319 to excommunicate people and hand them over to Satan. And 1434 01:30:10.439 --> 01:30:15.000 that's why the church says we excommunicate areas he is 1435 01:30:15.079 --> 01:30:19.039 of the double you know, he's out. And ultimately ex 1436 01:30:19.039 --> 01:30:22.199 communication is intended to have a remedial effect. It's not 1437 01:30:22.399 --> 01:30:25.840 just to quote damn people, but it is a real 1438 01:30:26.079 --> 01:30:29.840 power and authority that you do not really see in 1439 01:30:30.439 --> 01:30:34.880 the Protestant mindset. Precisely because there's a tension in Protestant 1440 01:30:34.920 --> 01:30:38.039 theology between the right of private interpretation and the freedom 1441 01:30:38.079 --> 01:30:41.359 of conscience, and the so called authority of a minister 1442 01:30:41.520 --> 01:30:44.760 to bind people to an interpretation and to excommunicate them. 1443 01:30:46.079 --> 01:30:49.119 Yeah, and this will be my last talking point. I 1444 01:30:49.199 --> 01:30:50.560 know you got a lot of people that probably want. 1445 01:30:50.439 --> 01:30:50.760 To come up. 1446 01:30:51.720 --> 01:30:54.359 I think that maybe then, just hearing, because this isn't 1447 01:30:54.359 --> 01:30:57.720 the first time I've had this conversation with someone in orthodoxy. 1448 01:30:58.760 --> 01:31:01.319 I think the more I hear it, where I realized 1449 01:31:01.359 --> 01:31:04.199 that maybe my circumstance may have been unique in the 1450 01:31:04.239 --> 01:31:06.079 way that our pastor guided our church. 1451 01:31:06.960 --> 01:31:08.319 Doesn't seem like you got it in in. 1452 01:31:08.359 --> 01:31:10.079 A typical Protestant type way. 1453 01:31:10.760 --> 01:31:13.119 But uh, you know that being said, I think that 1454 01:31:14.319 --> 01:31:16.119 you know, maybe maybe maybe. 1455 01:31:15.960 --> 01:31:18.840 You can give your opinion that Apostolic succession, and we 1456 01:31:19.000 --> 01:31:23.159 believe is when Paul talks to Timothy that he taught 1457 01:31:23.239 --> 01:31:25.720 for three years, day and night in Ephesus x twenty, 1458 01:31:25.800 --> 01:31:28.479 and then he lays hands on Timothy. He tells Timothy 1459 01:31:28.600 --> 01:31:30.840 not to hastily lay hands on anyone because the gift 1460 01:31:30.880 --> 01:31:33.399 to the Holy Spirit has passed on That for us 1461 01:31:33.560 --> 01:31:37.319 is apostolic succession, which is a real power. They shouldn't 1462 01:31:37.359 --> 01:31:40.520 be given hastily, and it's modeled on numbers eleven. When 1463 01:31:40.600 --> 01:31:43.760 you know you have the elders being laid their hands 1464 01:31:44.279 --> 01:31:47.159 by Moses, and then it says the Holy Spirit's given 1465 01:31:47.199 --> 01:31:49.720 by Moses to the elders. This is mirrored by what 1466 01:31:49.880 --> 01:31:54.640 Paul's doing. And most Protestants do not believe that in 1467 01:31:54.680 --> 01:31:57.399 the laying out of hands there's an actual transference of 1468 01:31:57.479 --> 01:32:01.079 power by the Holy Spirit. Hence they don't scary well, 1469 01:32:01.079 --> 01:32:02.920 they don't believe in They don't believe that it's a 1470 01:32:04.960 --> 01:32:08.079 a sacramental power. They just kind of see it as 1471 01:32:08.720 --> 01:32:11.560 a committee appointing you to be a pastor or whatever. 1472 01:32:12.319 --> 01:32:12.479 Yeah. 1473 01:32:12.600 --> 01:32:14.239 No, I can see where that can be a problem 1474 01:32:14.319 --> 01:32:16.680 because that's anti biblical for them to say that it 1475 01:32:17.159 --> 01:32:18.079 is insignificant. 1476 01:32:18.239 --> 01:32:19.720 Anyway, I agree with you on that. 1477 01:32:20.000 --> 01:32:21.880 So all right, Well, I look, I said, man, I 1478 01:32:21.880 --> 01:32:22.359 don't want to. 1479 01:32:22.319 --> 01:32:23.000 Take up too much time. 1480 01:32:23.000 --> 01:32:24.840 I appreciate I camming in your spaces. 1481 01:32:34.079 --> 01:32:46.319 Luther. Hey, how's it going, Yes, sir. 1482 01:32:48.000 --> 01:32:51.960 Uh, I was listening to one of your streams a 1483 01:32:52.039 --> 01:32:55.760 few days ago and I heard someone comment that concessional 1484 01:32:55.840 --> 01:32:57.399 Lutherans are your greatest fear. 1485 01:32:57.920 --> 01:32:59.439 Oh yeah, terrified. 1486 01:33:01.000 --> 01:33:04.760 Thought that was funny. But I haven't heard a lot 1487 01:33:04.800 --> 01:33:06.439 of confessional Lutherans. 1488 01:33:06.279 --> 01:33:09.119 Call in, Well, there's not that many that are out 1489 01:33:09.159 --> 01:33:13.520 there debating, so that's probably a better explanation. Yeah, I 1490 01:33:13.720 --> 01:33:14.279 would agree. 1491 01:33:17.159 --> 01:33:22.199 So I had a few questions. First, one would be 1492 01:33:23.680 --> 01:33:25.119 when it comes to the philioque. 1493 01:33:25.359 --> 01:33:25.960 I think I was. 1494 01:33:26.000 --> 01:33:27.039 Listening to your. 1495 01:33:28.520 --> 01:33:32.800 Conversation slash debate with Redeemed Zoomer, you know. 1496 01:33:33.119 --> 01:33:36.640 I'll touched on that a little bit, and he got 1497 01:33:36.680 --> 01:33:37.640 into the idea. 1498 01:33:37.479 --> 01:33:41.159 That if if we say that the spirit proceeds from 1499 01:33:41.199 --> 01:33:43.920 both the Father and the Son, that that in some 1500 01:33:44.079 --> 01:33:48.760 way onto logically subordinates the spirit. 1501 01:33:50.319 --> 01:33:53.039 Right, because you're giving you're giving an attribute. You're giving 1502 01:33:53.079 --> 01:33:56.439 a positive power attribute to two persons that one of 1503 01:33:56.479 --> 01:34:01.880 them lacks. And the Cappadocian dictum of all trinitarian theology 1504 01:34:01.960 --> 01:34:04.760 of the Second Ecumenical Council is that there's nothing that 1505 01:34:04.920 --> 01:34:09.279 all three persons share that's not a property of essence, 1506 01:34:09.880 --> 01:34:12.520 and anything that is unique is a property of a 1507 01:34:12.640 --> 01:34:16.720 single person in the triad. So, for example, to be 1508 01:34:16.880 --> 01:34:21.159 the son, that's the unique property of the son. Sonship 1509 01:34:21.279 --> 01:34:23.279 is not shared, and it's not a property of the 1510 01:34:23.319 --> 01:34:26.800 divine essence. It's unique to the second hypostasis of the 1511 01:34:26.920 --> 01:34:30.319 son to be the cause is unique to the Father. 1512 01:34:30.439 --> 01:34:34.960 That's his hypostatic property. So cause in the Trinity cannot 1513 01:34:35.039 --> 01:34:38.159 be shared without creating a diad where you have two 1514 01:34:38.279 --> 01:34:42.000 persons that form a principle of unity that the Holy 1515 01:34:42.079 --> 01:34:45.039 Spirit does not have or is not part of, because 1516 01:34:45.079 --> 01:34:48.159 no one believes that the Holy Spirit spirates or generates 1517 01:34:48.159 --> 01:34:52.039 any persons, you see, So he lacks this positive power 1518 01:34:52.239 --> 01:34:55.560 or attribute. So there's no such thing in trianitarient theology 1519 01:34:55.640 --> 01:34:59.520 as attributes that two persons share that one lacks. So 1520 01:35:00.600 --> 01:35:05.600 cause must be restricted to a hypostatic property and thus 1521 01:35:06.000 --> 01:35:08.199 only had by one person, the Father. 1522 01:35:09.720 --> 01:35:12.600 All right, that makes sense to me. 1523 01:35:13.800 --> 01:35:17.720 That's the that's the orthodoxology. You're already orthodoxylia. 1524 01:35:20.720 --> 01:35:21.279 Necessary. 1525 01:35:21.840 --> 01:35:25.439 You mentioned a council that discussed. 1526 01:35:25.279 --> 01:35:30.279 Well, the second Ecumenical Council is the normative definition for 1527 01:35:30.399 --> 01:35:35.000 Trinitarian conciliar theology. The Trinity doesn't become a focus of 1528 01:35:35.159 --> 01:35:41.079 councils uh until the Palamite Synods, and that's in the 1529 01:35:41.119 --> 01:35:45.319 Middle Ages. So basically the first econmenical council is the 1530 01:35:45.359 --> 01:35:50.640 d do christ Athanacious areas et cetera. Second Ecumenical Council 1531 01:35:50.840 --> 01:35:54.720 is the Trinity, and it's Cappadocian theology that dominates that. 1532 01:35:54.960 --> 01:36:00.319 That's basal of cesarea. Uh, that's Gregory Nazianzus and Gregor 1533 01:36:00.359 --> 01:36:03.840 of Nissa. Those three church fathers are the theologians par 1534 01:36:03.960 --> 01:36:07.960 excellence and particularly Gregor Nissa of the Second Ecumenical Council. 1535 01:36:08.600 --> 01:36:11.920 So Trinity doesn't get debated much because the next several 1536 01:36:12.000 --> 01:36:16.560 councils focus on Christology, and then Trinity comes up again 1537 01:36:16.800 --> 01:36:22.520 in the Energies in Phillyoquoid controversy of the Byzantine Church 1538 01:36:22.840 --> 01:36:27.319 versus the Council of Lions, in Rome, in the West, 1539 01:36:27.439 --> 01:36:30.359 and in the Council of Florence. So trinity doesn't be 1540 01:36:30.399 --> 01:36:34.039 an issue anymore until then doesn't become an issue. And 1541 01:36:34.159 --> 01:36:39.359 the Cappadocian dictum is whatever is a common property is 1542 01:36:39.399 --> 01:36:42.399 shared by all three, and whatever is a hyposthetic property 1543 01:36:42.439 --> 01:36:43.199 is only had by one. 1544 01:36:44.680 --> 01:36:48.720 All right, I haven't studied much of that, to be 1545 01:36:48.800 --> 01:36:54.079 honest with you, I'd be curious. So why you think 1546 01:36:54.239 --> 01:36:59.800 the Western Church just kind of ignored that concept. 1547 01:37:00.319 --> 01:37:04.960 I don't think they ignored it. I think that Latin theology. Uh, well, 1548 01:37:05.239 --> 01:37:08.039 in the case of the Second Acadomical Council, Rome didn't 1549 01:37:08.079 --> 01:37:10.880 accept that council. In fact, the council has had out 1550 01:37:10.880 --> 01:37:16.159 of communion with Rome. It was presided over by St. Melidius, 1551 01:37:16.880 --> 01:37:19.640 and at that time was in schism with Room. It's 1552 01:37:19.640 --> 01:37:22.840 called the Malician schism, and Rome didn't accept that until 1553 01:37:23.000 --> 01:37:27.119 about two or hundred years after Calcedon. So Constantinople One 1554 01:37:28.000 --> 01:37:32.319 was not accepted in the West until centuries after Poblio. 1555 01:37:35.000 --> 01:37:39.000 But was Rome in or I guess it would be 1556 01:37:39.039 --> 01:37:43.039 the Western Church. Were they in communion with the Eastern Church. 1557 01:37:42.960 --> 01:37:47.119 For a time even Yeah, broadly speaking, yes, broadly speaking yes, 1558 01:37:47.239 --> 01:37:48.159 but I mean the. 1559 01:37:51.960 --> 01:37:52.159 Yes. 1560 01:37:52.239 --> 01:37:56.680 So after Augustine you have the dominance of his Neoplatonic 1561 01:37:57.039 --> 01:38:02.840 influenced model of the triad based around Neoplatonic doctrines of simplicity. 1562 01:38:03.399 --> 01:38:08.359 So Augustine starts with Plutonian definitions as to what simplicity 1563 01:38:08.479 --> 01:38:10.880 is and must be, and then Trinity has worked into that. 1564 01:38:11.640 --> 01:38:15.159 So we do not in the East accept his model 1565 01:38:15.199 --> 01:38:18.359 of the Trinity because it was not accepted at constantinble One. 1566 01:38:20.079 --> 01:38:22.520 All right, so it's Augustine's fault. 1567 01:38:22.600 --> 01:38:26.119 Then, well, it's not one person's fault. It's a series 1568 01:38:26.359 --> 01:38:33.039 of issues of theological assumptions about metaphysics that take many 1569 01:38:33.159 --> 01:38:36.760 centuries to kind of come true fruition. So that's why 1570 01:38:36.800 --> 01:38:42.439 we don't reject the West until they dogmatically state their 1571 01:38:42.560 --> 01:38:46.119 position in the eleventh, twelfth, and thirteenth centuries. That's when 1572 01:38:46.159 --> 01:38:48.159 you find a real split between you and West. 1573 01:38:49.479 --> 01:38:53.520 Okay, if you don't mind, have another question. 1574 01:38:53.800 --> 01:38:57.159 Okay, I think this was another thing that came up 1575 01:38:57.199 --> 01:39:03.359 in that conversation with redeem Zuomer. But uh, and it's 1576 01:39:03.399 --> 01:39:07.039 come up a lot. But the idea that the Protestant 1577 01:39:07.479 --> 01:39:12.800 view of imputation or I mean it relates to justification, 1578 01:39:12.920 --> 01:39:15.560 also that it is somehow nominalist. 1579 01:39:17.840 --> 01:39:18.760 Help me understand that. 1580 01:39:19.159 --> 01:39:22.840 Read Haiko Oberman's book about Luther being influenced by William 1581 01:39:22.840 --> 01:39:27.479 of Aackaman Gabriel Bile, and that will explain how that 1582 01:39:27.680 --> 01:39:29.399 was the first time in history that you could have 1583 01:39:29.479 --> 01:39:33.319 a person positing the idea that God can pronounce something 1584 01:39:34.119 --> 01:39:37.039 and it be a legal status, completely divorced from the 1585 01:39:37.119 --> 01:39:40.800 ontological status. So God can call me righteous even though 1586 01:39:40.800 --> 01:39:45.560 I'm wicked. Nominalism is the philosophy that facilitates that. 1587 01:39:47.239 --> 01:39:48.359 What would you say to. 1588 01:39:51.000 --> 01:39:53.479 Response is that basically, it's not it's not that it 1589 01:39:53.520 --> 01:39:55.840 doesn't have an ontological basis. 1590 01:39:55.520 --> 01:39:58.560 Because it's but that is the Protestant view. The Protestant 1591 01:39:58.640 --> 01:40:01.239 view is in terms of souls, tour and justification by 1592 01:40:01.279 --> 01:40:04.119 faith alone, is that when God pronounces you righteous, it 1593 01:40:04.199 --> 01:40:07.199 has nothing to do with anything in you or that 1594 01:40:07.399 --> 01:40:10.760 you do. It is solely on the basis of the 1595 01:40:10.880 --> 01:40:16.880 imputation in Christ's work. Well, I don't know. 1596 01:40:16.960 --> 01:40:19.920 I tend to think of it more as having a 1597 01:40:21.079 --> 01:40:23.640 union with Christ aspect to it. 1598 01:40:24.000 --> 01:40:28.920 No, No, the doctrine of justification in classical Reformation teaching 1599 01:40:29.840 --> 01:40:33.520 does not posit that the basis of the legal imputation 1600 01:40:33.760 --> 01:40:35.600 is anything that you do. That's Luther. 1601 01:40:39.199 --> 01:40:39.560 I don't know. 1602 01:40:41.359 --> 01:40:43.920 You don't know. I mean, I've read Luther's commentary on 1603 01:40:44.039 --> 01:40:46.479 Romans is commentary on Galatians. You don't think he teaches that. 1604 01:40:47.000 --> 01:40:50.039 Yeah, Well, he might teach something like that, or he 1605 01:40:50.119 --> 01:40:52.920 might He might be kind of inconsistent because he also 1606 01:40:53.840 --> 01:40:57.720 speaks very highly of baptism in it that in baptism, 1607 01:40:57.840 --> 01:41:02.680 that's that's when we are clothed Christ's righteousness. I'd also 1608 01:41:02.760 --> 01:41:05.720 go to Romans six, like we we truly die with 1609 01:41:05.960 --> 01:41:09.000 Christ's in baptism and are. 1610 01:41:09.000 --> 01:41:11.479 United to him in that way. Yeah, I understand. He 1611 01:41:11.600 --> 01:41:15.359 teaches baptism regeneration, but even baptism regeneration, the gifts and 1612 01:41:15.439 --> 01:41:18.560 graces of that come to you because you're elect right, 1613 01:41:18.720 --> 01:41:22.560 So he believes in predestination like Augustine does. Se the 1614 01:41:22.720 --> 01:41:25.399 actions and works that you do, even going to the 1615 01:41:25.439 --> 01:41:28.920 baptismal font. In Luther's view, it's God that caused you 1616 01:41:29.000 --> 01:41:31.600 to get there and to be baptized. So even those 1617 01:41:31.720 --> 01:41:37.560 works are the works that God caused in you. Maybe 1618 01:41:37.800 --> 01:41:41.439 maybe somewhat hold on, hold on, hold on, you say, 1619 01:41:41.520 --> 01:41:45.319 maybe somewhat. Have you read Bonda of the Will, I've 1620 01:41:45.439 --> 01:41:48.800 started it. Okay, Well, that's why he's got. 1621 01:41:48.680 --> 01:41:52.840 A strong, a strong predestination view. 1622 01:41:53.000 --> 01:41:55.119 And he says what I just told you because I 1623 01:41:55.159 --> 01:42:00.159 read this book twenty years ago. Yeah, well, I know. 1624 01:42:00.239 --> 01:42:03.439 We also just believe in infant baptism and that all 1625 01:42:03.560 --> 01:42:04.319 babies who. 1626 01:42:04.279 --> 01:42:09.960 Are I know that, but that still can fit within 1627 01:42:10.039 --> 01:42:13.479 an Augustinian predestinarian model. Augustine believed the same thing, that 1628 01:42:14.159 --> 01:42:16.960 infants who make it to the font were destined to 1629 01:42:17.039 --> 01:42:22.279 be there. In Augustine's model, he doesn't believe that that 1630 01:42:22.520 --> 01:42:25.159 necessitates that you get the gift of perseverance, so you 1631 01:42:25.279 --> 01:42:29.199 might fall away in the Augustinian model. Luther's model is 1632 01:42:29.239 --> 01:42:32.159 more like a well, if you fell away, you were 1633 01:42:32.199 --> 01:42:34.680 never really elect So I know he's not a Calvinist 1634 01:42:34.760 --> 01:42:37.439 because he believes in a baptism regeneration. Calvin does not. 1635 01:42:38.279 --> 01:42:42.239 But I assure you that what I'm telling you is correct. 1636 01:42:42.359 --> 01:42:45.119 I had when I was a Calvinist. I had a 1637 01:42:45.359 --> 01:42:47.199 period maybe a year, where I was tempted to be 1638 01:42:47.439 --> 01:42:50.600 interested in Lutheranism, and so I read about six or 1639 01:42:50.600 --> 01:42:55.720 seven of Luther's books twenty years ago. But I eventually 1640 01:42:55.880 --> 01:43:03.720 was not convinced because Lutheranism is crystologically erroneous. And I 1641 01:43:03.840 --> 01:43:08.239 read Luther's debate with Jan Eck, and if you read 1642 01:43:08.239 --> 01:43:11.520 the full debate, it's pretty funny. And I found k 1643 01:43:11.600 --> 01:43:13.760 to be the winner of that debate. But I thank 1644 01:43:13.800 --> 01:43:21.439 you for your questions. Uh, we're looking for Protestants tonight, 1645 01:43:21.560 --> 01:43:23.840 so I see a lot of Orthodox guys. I'm asking 1646 01:43:23.920 --> 01:43:27.960 for Protestants, Holy Assassin, what's up? Protestants or Catholics are 1647 01:43:28.000 --> 01:43:32.199 Muslims tonight? Please? If you're an Orthodox catechumen, don't bring you. 1648 01:43:33.720 --> 01:43:34.079 What's up? 1649 01:43:34.119 --> 01:43:35.720 How's it going your mind. 1650 01:43:37.119 --> 01:43:39.520 Yeah, honestly, I mainly wanted to kind of discuss the 1651 01:43:39.720 --> 01:43:41.039 Orthodox Church. 1652 01:43:41.159 --> 01:43:43.800 View of the Old Testament, but I I just had 1653 01:43:43.840 --> 01:43:44.479 a quick question. 1654 01:43:44.600 --> 01:43:47.239 So I've heard you say that, like when you're when 1655 01:43:47.279 --> 01:43:51.479 you are defending the Orthodox position on justification, you say 1656 01:43:51.600 --> 01:43:55.960 like that, even like putting your faith in Jesus is 1657 01:43:56.039 --> 01:43:57.479 a word you do right with Like, ha, do you 1658 01:43:57.560 --> 01:44:01.199 reconcile with that? With Ephesians where Paul says that. 1659 01:44:03.239 --> 01:44:08.760 You know that salvation is a gift, Jesus is the 1660 01:44:08.800 --> 01:44:11.239 one that says this is the work of God, that 1661 01:44:11.319 --> 01:44:12.520 you believe on him that He's sent. 1662 01:44:16.880 --> 01:44:17.319 Are you there? 1663 01:44:25.359 --> 01:44:26.640 I can't hear you, So I don't know if you 1664 01:44:26.760 --> 01:44:29.399 dropped off for what. Yeah. I don't think there's any 1665 01:44:30.039 --> 01:44:34.800 discord between the idea that works are necessary and that 1666 01:44:35.159 --> 01:44:38.039 their gifts of grace. The only difference is that I 1667 01:44:38.159 --> 01:44:42.399 don't believe in the Lutheran view that God is directly 1668 01:44:42.800 --> 01:44:45.920 causing me to do the good works. There's a cooperation 1669 01:44:46.359 --> 01:44:51.079 that goes along with me working with God. And that's 1670 01:44:51.119 --> 01:44:54.319 why Paul can say that the only faith that counts 1671 01:44:54.359 --> 01:44:57.720 this is Paul, not James. Paul says, the only faith 1672 01:44:57.800 --> 01:45:01.560 that counts is the faith that worketh through love. And 1673 01:45:01.640 --> 01:45:03.760 when he lists what love is and verse twenty thirteen, 1674 01:45:03.920 --> 01:45:07.199 it's a bunch of works. So Paul teaches the necessity 1675 01:45:07.319 --> 01:45:11.720 of works. But the works, as Augustine says, themselves, are 1676 01:45:11.800 --> 01:45:15.039 also divine gifts of grace. That doesn't mean that I 1677 01:45:15.079 --> 01:45:17.680 don't cooperate. But I can still say that my good 1678 01:45:17.800 --> 01:45:21.319 works even though I do have a synergy that God 1679 01:45:21.439 --> 01:45:25.520 created me to have as a created being who cooperates 1680 01:45:25.560 --> 01:45:28.000 with God, like Paul says, Paul says, I am a 1681 01:45:28.199 --> 01:45:32.119 co worker with Christ. Is Paul detracting from God's grace 1682 01:45:32.159 --> 01:45:35.640 because he calls himself a coworker. No, and so likewise 1683 01:45:35.720 --> 01:45:39.399 we are co workers. But get the works themselves are 1684 01:45:39.520 --> 01:45:43.359 also done by grace. If you want to come back, 1685 01:45:45.079 --> 01:45:46.439 try again, if you're at Mike's. 1686 01:45:46.239 --> 01:45:49.760 Working, you can hear me. 1687 01:45:50.000 --> 01:45:54.880 Yeah, yeah, mat, I totally got disconnected. So yeah, So 1688 01:45:55.159 --> 01:45:58.279 the Orthodox Church, right, you have a canon? So like 1689 01:45:58.399 --> 01:46:02.720 what's the basis of the Orthodox canon? Because and like, 1690 01:46:02.880 --> 01:46:05.520 how do you even trust that the Orthodox is right 1691 01:46:05.680 --> 01:46:08.800 when they determined that this particular book belongs to canon, 1692 01:46:09.720 --> 01:46:12.079 Like what is the reliability of that perce it's the 1693 01:46:12.159 --> 01:46:12.600 same as. 1694 01:46:12.600 --> 01:46:15.279 The reliability that you you would use. Right, So I 1695 01:46:15.319 --> 01:46:16.960 don't know if you did you hear the explanations or 1696 01:46:17.000 --> 01:46:19.520 did you get booted out? Right? Jesus says, this is 1697 01:46:19.600 --> 01:46:21.640 the work of God that you believe in him that 1698 01:46:21.680 --> 01:46:23.760 he has sent John six twenty nine. So that wasn't 1699 01:46:24.079 --> 01:46:27.199 me saying that it was quoting Christ calling faith at work. 1700 01:46:29.079 --> 01:46:31.319 Okay, Yeah, I kind of got booted out by accident. 1701 01:46:31.479 --> 01:46:34.840 Body here thatch okay. And then I said that Ephesians 1702 01:46:35.479 --> 01:46:38.439 when it talks about the works or that we're not 1703 01:46:38.640 --> 01:46:41.000 saved by works that we do, but by grace, that 1704 01:46:41.119 --> 01:46:43.640 doesn't mean that there's not a requirement of us doing works. 1705 01:46:43.680 --> 01:46:46.319 It means that our status and our interests into salvation 1706 01:46:46.520 --> 01:46:50.960 is not something that we deserve or earned because Jesus 1707 01:46:51.079 --> 01:46:54.800 saved us, right, Jesus died for us. We didn't tell 1708 01:46:54.880 --> 01:46:56.600 him that what he needed to do, and we didn't 1709 01:46:56.640 --> 01:46:59.560 earn his death. That was all done out of his 1710 01:47:00.800 --> 01:47:05.880 over abundance of love for us. So, but that doesn't 1711 01:47:06.000 --> 01:47:10.159 mean that I don't synergize with and work with God 1712 01:47:10.920 --> 01:47:13.760 work out my salvation with fear and trembling, as Paul says. 1713 01:47:13.840 --> 01:47:17.359 Paul says he's a co worker with Christ, and Paul 1714 01:47:17.439 --> 01:47:20.199 says that the only faith that saves is the one 1715 01:47:20.239 --> 01:47:21.439 that worketh through love. 1716 01:47:23.800 --> 01:47:24.359 Fair point. 1717 01:47:24.920 --> 01:47:26.920 So just another question before I move on to the 1718 01:47:27.199 --> 01:47:31.079 actual Old Testament arguments that had so like the proudence 1719 01:47:31.159 --> 01:47:33.479 in prices of like faith is what saves you. But 1720 01:47:33.680 --> 01:47:37.159 like the words there they just like sanctify you, Like 1721 01:47:37.279 --> 01:47:39.680 that's what you do after you get justified, right, So 1722 01:47:39.840 --> 01:47:40.520 like do you agree with that? 1723 01:47:41.399 --> 01:47:45.239 No, because justification in the Bible and in the ancient 1724 01:47:45.319 --> 01:47:48.760 world was not a pure legal standing, and that's why 1725 01:47:48.920 --> 01:47:53.199 Luther and the reformers needed the philosophy of nominalism, which 1726 01:47:53.359 --> 01:47:58.199 divorced the actual reality from the name or the title 1727 01:47:58.319 --> 01:48:01.520 of it. That's called nominalism. The ancient world didn't have 1728 01:48:01.600 --> 01:48:05.079 nominalists really, So anybody who talked about in the ancient 1729 01:48:05.119 --> 01:48:08.880 medieval world as being quote righteous or being just that 1730 01:48:09.039 --> 01:48:12.079 meant they had the actual ontological power and quality of 1731 01:48:12.199 --> 01:48:14.279 being that. It wasn't just a legal status. 1732 01:48:16.199 --> 01:48:16.720 Fair point. 1733 01:48:17.159 --> 01:48:19.119 So this is where I wanted to get into, like 1734 01:48:19.319 --> 01:48:23.239 my arguments, let's say, like against the Orthodox Church. So 1735 01:48:24.000 --> 01:48:25.840 you know the Orthodox Church they have a different Old 1736 01:48:25.840 --> 01:48:28.800 Testament canon, and so I was just wondering, like sure, 1737 01:48:28.960 --> 01:48:31.319 like you know, there's the idea that the church has 1738 01:48:31.439 --> 01:48:33.800 the authority to decide, you know, the canon for the 1739 01:48:33.840 --> 01:48:36.760 Old Testament New Testament, But what is the basis for 1740 01:48:37.479 --> 01:48:41.560 accepting the Old Testament considering that, Like when I was 1741 01:48:41.600 --> 01:48:44.199 doing research as well in my personal research, it showed 1742 01:48:44.239 --> 01:48:46.039 that it led me to believe that a lot of 1743 01:48:46.079 --> 01:48:49.159 the scholars right the books of the Old Testament they 1744 01:48:49.239 --> 01:48:51.680 have been edited out and then like some of the 1745 01:48:51.760 --> 01:48:56.760 authors are unknown. For example, even the Book of Isaiah. 1746 01:48:57.119 --> 01:48:59.000 I think I had the Orthodox Study Bible that I have, 1747 01:48:59.239 --> 01:49:02.279 Like they kind of just give a generic traditional answer, 1748 01:49:02.359 --> 01:49:03.479 which doesn't really work. 1749 01:49:04.159 --> 01:49:05.239 So for the Book of Isaiah, for. 1750 01:49:05.319 --> 01:49:08.279 Example, I think the Orthodox City Bible does say that 1751 01:49:08.439 --> 01:49:12.079 that it was written by the prophet Isaiah, but you 1752 01:49:12.159 --> 01:49:14.720 know there's nothing like there's no good evidence. 1753 01:49:14.359 --> 01:49:16.279 For it, and like all the how do you know that? 1754 01:49:16.720 --> 01:49:16.760 No. 1755 01:49:16.880 --> 01:49:26.520 In fact, the the Dead Sea Scrolls contained old ancient 1756 01:49:26.600 --> 01:49:30.920 text of Isaiah. So I think the Dead Sea Scrolls 1757 01:49:31.079 --> 01:49:33.399 is one of the things that is an attestation to 1758 01:49:33.479 --> 01:49:37.199 the validity of Isaiah. And I mean you can say that, 1759 01:49:38.479 --> 01:49:39.640 I mean, if you're going to read a bunch of 1760 01:49:39.720 --> 01:49:42.159 like higher critical stuff I mean, they're going to say 1761 01:49:42.199 --> 01:49:46.000 that any of the Protestant stuff you believe is also false. 1762 01:49:46.319 --> 01:49:50.600 So I mean to use higher critical stuff to prove 1763 01:49:50.800 --> 01:49:53.800 Protestantism unless you were an atheist. And maybe you're already atheism. 1764 01:49:53.800 --> 01:49:55.560 I don't know, but to me, it seems like it's 1765 01:49:55.600 --> 01:50:01.720 a double edged sword. Kov, what's up. The reason that 1766 01:50:01.800 --> 01:50:04.439 the duoconomical texts are in the Bible is because the 1767 01:50:04.560 --> 01:50:10.560 apostles have they used primarily the septuagent and the subtu 1768 01:50:10.640 --> 01:50:12.840 agent included the dudo chronical texts, and that's why the 1769 01:50:12.880 --> 01:50:16.600 Apostles cite and refer to the duo canon many many times. 1770 01:50:16.800 --> 01:50:19.600 Go ahead, Hey, j how are you doing? 1771 01:50:20.600 --> 01:50:22.000 What's up? Man? I'm good? How are you? 1772 01:50:23.600 --> 01:50:23.640 So? 1773 01:50:24.520 --> 01:50:27.960 I was raised in a non denominational church, went to 1774 01:50:28.039 --> 01:50:29.359 Sunday School, went. 1775 01:50:29.319 --> 01:50:32.840 To youth church, and you know, whole manuorids. 1776 01:50:33.880 --> 01:50:35.479 Kind of stopped going to church. 1777 01:50:35.680 --> 01:50:37.279 It was, you know, very low church. 1778 01:50:38.479 --> 01:50:40.720 So I didn't feel too bad about like not going 1779 01:50:40.760 --> 01:50:43.760 when my parents weren't making me anymore. But recently I 1780 01:50:43.880 --> 01:50:46.359 just had a daughter and I'm like, I, you know, 1781 01:50:46.439 --> 01:50:48.560 I got to get my family back to church. So 1782 01:50:48.720 --> 01:50:52.079 I start looking at non anominal churches near me, and 1783 01:50:52.159 --> 01:50:53.840 I couldn't really find one, but I found. 1784 01:50:53.600 --> 01:50:55.000 A bunch of other denominations. 1785 01:50:55.399 --> 01:50:59.520 I started looking into those, and I realized I had 1786 01:50:59.800 --> 01:51:03.279 no idea about theology. I just got a couple questions 1787 01:51:03.399 --> 01:51:07.560 for you, Okay. So I heard a lot of like, 1788 01:51:07.760 --> 01:51:09.840 you know, the canon and all that stuff. 1789 01:51:11.199 --> 01:51:13.319 Was it just Martin Luther that took. 1790 01:51:13.600 --> 01:51:16.039 The books out and now all Protestants follow that? 1791 01:51:18.560 --> 01:51:19.520 Well, he was the first. 1792 01:51:20.159 --> 01:51:20.279 Uh. 1793 01:51:20.479 --> 01:51:25.720 And then you had people who were humanists, and that 1794 01:51:25.800 --> 01:51:30.159 doesn't mean secular humanists, but like Theodore Beza and Calvin 1795 01:51:30.640 --> 01:51:34.439 and other reformers were very into a movement at that 1796 01:51:34.560 --> 01:51:37.000 time called humanism, which was a desire to go back 1797 01:51:37.119 --> 01:51:41.319 to the original texts, languages, and sources. So it was 1798 01:51:41.399 --> 01:51:45.319 kind of a movement that amongst intellectuals at that time 1799 01:51:45.600 --> 01:51:49.880 to prefer to look at, say, the Hebrew text versus 1800 01:51:50.319 --> 01:51:54.000 the Greek translation of the subtu agent. So that also 1801 01:51:54.199 --> 01:51:58.199 was part of the motivations. It wasn't just well to 1802 01:51:58.279 --> 01:52:01.199 do what Luther said, right because Calvin and Calvin's not 1803 01:52:01.840 --> 01:52:03.600 He might respect Luthor, but he's not going to just 1804 01:52:03.680 --> 01:52:06.239 do it because Luther said it or did it. Calvin 1805 01:52:06.359 --> 01:52:09.199 was a scholar of his own mind and devising, and 1806 01:52:09.319 --> 01:52:12.600 so he was interested in going back to Hebrew and 1807 01:52:12.760 --> 01:52:15.680 Greek texts, and that was part of the reason why 1808 01:52:15.760 --> 01:52:18.920 they thought, well, that would lead us to the masoretic 1809 01:52:19.000 --> 01:52:22.439 texts of the Jews versus the Canada Scripture that the 1810 01:52:22.920 --> 01:52:25.920 that the Latin Papal Church had normalized. 1811 01:52:27.760 --> 01:52:28.119 Got it? 1812 01:52:28.359 --> 01:52:29.199 Okay, thank you? 1813 01:52:30.439 --> 01:52:32.760 So I heard I've heard you. 1814 01:52:34.239 --> 01:52:37.279 In past videos talk about, you know, the five solas. 1815 01:52:39.520 --> 01:52:44.960 Now you are you just against sol scriptur and so or. 1816 01:52:46.800 --> 01:52:49.399 Is there the other three that you I mean? 1817 01:52:49.479 --> 01:52:54.800 I think the way that classical Protestantism brings the meanings 1818 01:52:54.840 --> 01:52:58.159 of those terms out, the way it fleshes out the solas, 1819 01:52:58.239 --> 01:53:00.640 we would as Orthodox disagree with all the solos the 1820 01:53:00.680 --> 01:53:01.520 way they define them. 1821 01:53:02.880 --> 01:53:07.600 Okay, Okay, Now something I hear. 1822 01:53:08.119 --> 01:53:10.880 So basically, I'm a slow boy, and so learning like 1823 01:53:11.039 --> 01:53:13.279 by reading is hard. I've been listening to a bunch 1824 01:53:13.319 --> 01:53:18.520 of Christian apologetics and debates and stuff. So I hear 1825 01:53:18.880 --> 01:53:21.760 a lot of Calvinists, and I'm sure many other. 1826 01:53:21.640 --> 01:53:22.920 Protestants say this as well. 1827 01:53:23.039 --> 01:53:27.079 But like they say like by or by grace through 1828 01:53:27.199 --> 01:53:32.199 faith or something like that, and then they'll turn around 1829 01:53:32.279 --> 01:53:36.960 and then say by faith alone. And I don't know 1830 01:53:37.039 --> 01:53:40.239 if you've heard the by grace through faith. 1831 01:53:40.119 --> 01:53:40.800 Or something like that. 1832 01:53:42.319 --> 01:53:44.720 I used to be a Protestant with the prost seminary bro. 1833 01:53:46.640 --> 01:53:50.960 So when they're saying that, what does that mean versus 1834 01:53:51.560 --> 01:53:52.920 just so. 1835 01:53:53.000 --> 01:53:59.239 The assumption is that human operation, energy and activity can 1836 01:53:59.359 --> 01:54:03.199 in no way tribute to the root and ground of salvation, 1837 01:54:03.479 --> 01:54:07.079 because this would be to detract from God's glory, in 1838 01:54:07.159 --> 01:54:10.359 God's sovereignty, in God's grace in salvation. So, if you 1839 01:54:10.439 --> 01:54:13.239 have anything to do with it in terms of the 1840 01:54:13.359 --> 01:54:17.520 legal status of your justification and the imputation, you're basing 1841 01:54:17.640 --> 01:54:21.239 your salvation on works. You're basing your salvation on yourself 1842 01:54:21.800 --> 01:54:24.680 self worship, will worship, and you're detracting from God and 1843 01:54:24.760 --> 01:54:27.439 you're worshiping yourself. It's an idol. This is the classic 1844 01:54:28.079 --> 01:54:34.840 Protestant Reformation preachy way to go after any notion of 1845 01:54:35.279 --> 01:54:40.000 synergy or synergism. Even though there's many arguments in many 1846 01:54:40.000 --> 01:54:43.159 ways to combat this. I've listed several already. Tonight. Jesus 1847 01:54:43.239 --> 01:54:45.560 calls faith a work in John six twenty nine. This 1848 01:54:45.720 --> 01:54:50.720 is the work of God. Jesus says that when God speaks, 1849 01:54:51.359 --> 01:54:54.520 it comes about right when God speaks to create the world. 1850 01:54:54.600 --> 01:54:57.479 It happens. When God speaks into our hearts, it happens. 1851 01:54:57.840 --> 01:55:01.039 So there's no such thing as God speaking and it 1852 01:55:01.199 --> 01:55:05.279 not being efficacious. Oh, God calls your righteous, but you're 1853 01:55:05.399 --> 01:55:08.319 filthy rags, You're an evil, wicked thing. But that's the 1854 01:55:08.399 --> 01:55:13.680 actual basis of both Luther and Calvin's doctrine of justification 1855 01:55:13.880 --> 01:55:17.199 by imputation and faith alone. Even the action of you 1856 01:55:17.319 --> 01:55:21.960 believing in Luther or Calvin's system is not the basis 1857 01:55:22.359 --> 01:55:27.039 of your salvation. That is also something God caused in you, 1858 01:55:28.000 --> 01:55:31.600 and thus that removes you from having any contribution to 1859 01:55:31.760 --> 01:55:36.279 the salvation. When you do good works and when you 1860 01:55:37.119 --> 01:55:44.840 are sanctified, those are all flowing from the justification status 1861 01:55:44.960 --> 01:55:47.159 that you got, which has nothing to do with you. 1862 01:55:48.039 --> 01:55:52.279 So you do contribute to and cooperate in sanctification, but 1863 01:55:52.399 --> 01:55:57.199 that sanctification process has absolutely nothing to do with the 1864 01:55:57.319 --> 01:56:02.520 original justification status or the regeneration status. Even though Luther's 1865 01:56:02.520 --> 01:56:04.720 a little inconsistent on that, Luther would just say, well, 1866 01:56:05.119 --> 01:56:07.600 God caused you to get to the font. So even 1867 01:56:08.079 --> 01:56:12.680 baptism regeneration in Luther's mind is still somewhat monargistic. Again 1868 01:56:13.039 --> 01:56:15.119 read bonded to the will or read it twenty years ago. 1869 01:56:15.720 --> 01:56:19.399 Luther believes that God's the direct cause of everything in 1870 01:56:19.479 --> 01:56:23.319 your life, including the good and bad works. Calvin's not 1871 01:56:23.479 --> 01:56:26.640 that extreme. He says, no, if there's anything good in 1872 01:56:26.720 --> 01:56:29.960 your life, that's God, anything bad that's you. But even 1873 01:56:30.000 --> 01:56:33.279 the good works are tainted, filthy rags in Calvin's view. 1874 01:56:33.560 --> 01:56:38.199 So you see justification in the classical Protestant systems are 1875 01:56:38.399 --> 01:56:45.560 very precise, they're very legal oriented. They're strictly legal status positions, 1876 01:56:46.600 --> 01:56:51.479 not based on ontological realities. I'm not saying that the 1877 01:56:51.520 --> 01:56:55.359 Protestant positions don't believe in antological change in you. They do, 1878 01:56:56.279 --> 01:57:00.359 but the ontological change in you that ultimately, this sort 1879 01:57:00.359 --> 01:57:04.000 of sanctification in your process of being made holy has 1880 01:57:04.119 --> 01:57:08.920 nothing to do with your original justification legal status that 1881 01:57:09.159 --> 01:57:13.640 is only on the basis of Christ's work and ultimately 1882 01:57:13.720 --> 01:57:16.279 whether you're elect or not. And that's both Luther and 1883 01:57:16.479 --> 01:57:21.319 Calvin's view because both believed in unconditional election because they 1884 01:57:21.439 --> 01:57:34.520 followed Augustine very strictly. Okay, what's up, Jake Moore? Five dollars? 1885 01:57:34.600 --> 01:57:37.920 I'm a Catholic, but for the win, very heavy, Jay, 1886 01:57:38.079 --> 01:57:42.279 have very very I don't know what that means. Fw 1887 01:57:42.520 --> 01:57:46.920 J heavy Hold on a second. What do you know about? 1888 01:57:47.479 --> 01:57:50.279 Just one second? What do you like about Shamoon? What 1889 01:57:50.359 --> 01:57:55.840 do you take issue with? Again, We've addressed this countless times. 1890 01:57:57.479 --> 01:58:00.319 I've done many, many, many streams and talks, talked to 1891 01:58:00.439 --> 01:58:03.439 Sam Schumann all the time. But Sam is at a 1892 01:58:03.479 --> 01:58:06.960 position where he believes that all of the Apostolic churches 1893 01:58:07.039 --> 01:58:11.000 have a sort of a common Apostolicity, but he doesn't 1894 01:58:11.039 --> 01:58:16.520 believe in a single divine institution per se, and so 1895 01:58:16.960 --> 01:58:19.279 he says he's not sure which of these. So I 1896 01:58:19.319 --> 01:58:21.479 would take an issue with that because obviously I promote 1897 01:58:21.520 --> 01:58:25.039 the Orthodox Church. Okay, what's up? 1898 01:58:25.960 --> 01:58:26.439 Hey, Jay? 1899 01:58:26.520 --> 01:58:27.560 How are you good? 1900 01:58:28.359 --> 01:58:30.239 Nice to meet you man, I've been listening to you 1901 01:58:30.319 --> 01:58:32.159 for years, we never actually spoke with you in person. 1902 01:58:33.640 --> 01:58:34.119 Hey, thank you. 1903 01:58:34.600 --> 01:58:36.520 So first, I just want to say glory to Jesus Christ, 1904 01:58:36.560 --> 01:58:39.079 and I really hope that this conversation can be fruitful 1905 01:58:39.119 --> 01:58:41.560 and we can both you know, remember that first and 1906 01:58:41.640 --> 01:58:43.479 foremost as Christians, we need to treat each other and 1907 01:58:43.560 --> 01:58:48.800 love and respect. So why is it that you get 1908 01:58:48.920 --> 01:58:50.680 nervous as soon as you come up, but before you're 1909 01:58:50.720 --> 01:58:53.880 like completely calm what so weird. 1910 01:58:54.880 --> 01:58:56.680 No, I'm saying, Oh, I'll tell you. I think you're 1911 01:58:56.680 --> 01:58:57.119 talking about me. 1912 01:58:57.159 --> 01:59:00.199 And I was like, oh, no, you're you're a vetman. Yeah, 1913 01:59:01.720 --> 01:59:03.319 So first I did want to ask you. So I 1914 01:59:03.399 --> 01:59:06.239 was listening to your conversation the other day with that 1915 01:59:07.920 --> 01:59:13.279 the Joseph guy, the Ben Joseph what was it? 1916 01:59:13.439 --> 01:59:14.520 The was he Mormon? 1917 01:59:15.439 --> 01:59:17.880 Oh? His name was Robert Gerr. You talking about that guy? 1918 01:59:18.680 --> 01:59:21.560 Yeah, yeah, saying that like the Joseph and the New 1919 01:59:21.640 --> 01:59:22.359 test Yes. 1920 01:59:22.640 --> 01:59:24.840 The two messiahs that the Talmut has. 1921 01:59:24.960 --> 01:59:27.520 Yeah, right, And I was just thinking. 1922 01:59:27.359 --> 01:59:29.199 Well, maybe I'm a prophet because my middle name is Joseph. 1923 01:59:29.239 --> 01:59:31.319 So there you go. How do we know it's not 1924 01:59:31.439 --> 01:59:33.720 about you? Maybe it is, Hey, it could. 1925 01:59:33.560 --> 01:59:37.960 Be God forbid. So I had a question in that conversation. 1926 01:59:38.319 --> 01:59:43.199 And I am someone who believes, well, I used to 1927 01:59:43.239 --> 01:59:47.359 believe very deeply in the pre sup based on the 1928 01:59:47.399 --> 01:59:49.880 teachings of Van Till and Bonson. I got introduced to them, 1929 01:59:50.159 --> 01:59:52.720 read their books. I've had some difficulties with it. So 1930 01:59:52.800 --> 01:59:54.920 I was hoping first that maybe I could share with 1931 01:59:55.000 --> 01:59:58.399 you some of my difficulties because I do believe that 1932 01:59:58.520 --> 02:00:03.000 it debunks atheism, like atheism and agnoscissism, I do believe. 1933 02:00:03.079 --> 02:00:05.399 My issue is how do I defend it. 1934 02:00:05.520 --> 02:00:10.239 Against other transcendental justifications, other transcendental roundings, or when they 1935 02:00:10.359 --> 02:00:12.479 do the whole like, well, I have a rock and 1936 02:00:12.560 --> 02:00:14.520 his name is Paul, and he has all the attributes 1937 02:00:14.600 --> 02:00:16.560 of the Christian God except for this one thing that 1938 02:00:16.680 --> 02:00:18.720 he's like he lied once or something. 1939 02:00:18.880 --> 02:00:20.960 Right. Well, we've addressed that, and I'm not saying this 1940 02:00:21.039 --> 02:00:23.039 to be rude to you. We've addressed that many, many, 1941 02:00:23.079 --> 02:00:26.159 many times, because many people have brought that up. And 1942 02:00:26.439 --> 02:00:31.760 I argue that the Monson van Till crowd could only 1943 02:00:31.840 --> 02:00:34.439 get so far with the argument because they had a 1944 02:00:34.560 --> 02:00:38.119 defective Calvinist theology, so they didn't have a good Trinitarian 1945 02:00:38.199 --> 02:00:40.960 model to work with. And also they didn't have a 1946 02:00:41.000 --> 02:00:43.920 lot of the toolkit of the Christian metaphysics that we 1947 02:00:44.039 --> 02:00:48.560 have as orthodox Orthodox theology and metaphysics is very vast 1948 02:00:48.800 --> 02:00:54.479 and very it's a better toolkit. I don't have to 1949 02:00:54.600 --> 02:00:57.039 say it. So when I make the tag argument, I 1950 02:00:57.239 --> 02:01:01.239 argue that depending upon who I'm debating, but ultimately speaking, 1951 02:01:01.399 --> 02:01:05.039 it's not just a defense of an abstract conception of 1952 02:01:05.399 --> 02:01:08.640 a deity that reconciles one in many or an abstract 1953 02:01:08.680 --> 02:01:11.039 deity that's like a math problem or something like that. 1954 02:01:11.640 --> 02:01:15.039 You're actually arguing for the entire Christian worldview, and at 1955 02:01:15.119 --> 02:01:17.640 times Vonton Eventil would actually say that that, they would 1956 02:01:17.640 --> 02:01:21.079 actually make that point. So if that's the case, then 1957 02:01:22.079 --> 02:01:25.760 the whole world view is actually grounded on trinitarian theology. 1958 02:01:26.399 --> 02:01:29.319 And if orthodox Trinitarian theology is a correct Trinitarian theology, 1959 02:01:29.359 --> 02:01:32.640 then you need orthodox trinitary theology and the metaphysics that 1960 02:01:32.680 --> 02:01:37.039 flows from that. So you need the essence introducecinction, you 1961 02:01:37.199 --> 02:01:42.840 need the low Gie doctrine for divine conceptualism. You need 1962 02:01:43.319 --> 02:01:45.760 all kinds of things that are just not in the 1963 02:01:46.720 --> 02:01:50.760 Calvinist mindset to make it work. To refute, furthermore, on 1964 02:01:50.880 --> 02:01:53.840 a more basic level, when somebody says something like, oh, well, 1965 02:01:53.880 --> 02:01:56.359 my rock, I have a rock that has all the 1966 02:01:56.399 --> 02:01:58.520 same attributes, Well, first of all, it would not be 1967 02:01:58.680 --> 02:02:01.279 the same attributes if it's a rock. A rock is 1968 02:02:01.319 --> 02:02:04.039 a created thing, so to give the rock all the 1969 02:02:04.119 --> 02:02:07.560 attributes of the Trinity would be absurd. But beyond that, 1970 02:02:07.720 --> 02:02:12.520 it's even more flawed because the Christian paradigm is not 1971 02:02:12.760 --> 02:02:16.119 just an abstract conceptual list of propositions or doctrines or 1972 02:02:16.159 --> 02:02:19.199 ideas like math problems or sets or something like that. 1973 02:02:19.319 --> 02:02:23.039 It's actually a historic religion, so you actually need the 1974 02:02:23.159 --> 02:02:26.920 incarnational aspect, God stepping into time and space, the Son 1975 02:02:27.000 --> 02:02:29.920 of God becoming man. That affects our view of history. 1976 02:02:30.000 --> 02:02:32.359 God stepped into history, so history is now part of 1977 02:02:32.960 --> 02:02:37.319 the Christian paradigm, you see. And so this atheist, this 1978 02:02:38.039 --> 02:02:42.000 specuative view of the trinitarian rock God, would not have 1979 02:02:42.199 --> 02:02:45.159 all the same attributes. It would also be an obvious 1980 02:02:45.279 --> 02:02:50.079 copy paste from the already historically grounded and situated religion 1981 02:02:50.119 --> 02:02:50.840 of Christianity. 1982 02:02:51.720 --> 02:02:53.720 Okay, do you have any books that I could read 1983 02:02:53.760 --> 02:02:55.840 other than because I'm pretty much done with Bonton. I 1984 02:02:55.960 --> 02:02:58.680 was reading his how he kind of interprets the van 1985 02:02:58.760 --> 02:03:00.640 Til because man Till is very heavy, so he tries 1986 02:03:00.680 --> 02:03:03.159 to come in and kind of interpret it for someone 1987 02:03:03.199 --> 02:03:05.359 that's a little more late. But like you said, there's 1988 02:03:05.399 --> 02:03:07.720 issues with that, and this dude just keeps repeating himself 1989 02:03:07.760 --> 02:03:09.239 over and over. I'm like one hundred pages in and 1990 02:03:09.319 --> 02:03:12.439 he said the same thing like twenty times. So do 1991 02:03:12.560 --> 02:03:15.720 you have any other books that you would recommend for 1992 02:03:15.880 --> 02:03:16.960 the precept that I could learn a. 1993 02:03:16.920 --> 02:03:20.880 Little bit more honestly, not really not from them. I 1994 02:03:20.920 --> 02:03:24.319 would say watch all of our old transcendental argument and 1995 02:03:25.000 --> 02:03:29.199 precept videos going back last six years, because we get 1996 02:03:29.239 --> 02:03:31.800 into all the all those questions, all those questions that 1997 02:03:32.560 --> 02:03:35.840 all those questions that you're asking. You know, we actually 1998 02:03:36.600 --> 02:03:38.760 have dealt with us for a long time. So that 1999 02:03:38.920 --> 02:03:41.439 might be a better route than saying, oh, go read 2000 02:03:41.520 --> 02:03:43.439 Bonson here, because Bonnson and Ben Tall are not going 2001 02:03:43.479 --> 02:03:46.520 to deal with those questions. They don't have the tool 2002 02:03:46.600 --> 02:03:50.119 kit to deal with it. Modernity, what's up? Even though, 2003 02:03:50.319 --> 02:03:53.880 like you said, they did get so far with tag 2004 02:04:02.840 --> 02:04:05.119 recovering areaan three dollars. In my opinion, the only thing 2005 02:04:05.239 --> 02:04:09.960 left to debunk in the Protestants is conservative non Calvinist 2006 02:04:10.119 --> 02:04:13.720 high churches that claim up so succession in Liturgic War. 2007 02:04:13.840 --> 02:04:17.720 So Anglicans, well, that may be the case, but there's 2008 02:04:17.760 --> 02:04:19.600 not a lot of those. I mean, I've had like 2009 02:04:19.720 --> 02:04:22.880 maybe two Anglicans ever call into debate. So I mean, 2010 02:04:23.079 --> 02:04:25.680 if that's what's left, then we're doing pretty good because 2011 02:04:26.039 --> 02:04:27.880 there's not a lot of there's not a lot of 2012 02:04:27.960 --> 02:04:30.319 loud Anglican voices. Although I did try to get that 2013 02:04:30.800 --> 02:04:34.239 Black Day with Afro Calvin Robinson or whatever his name is. 2014 02:04:35.119 --> 02:04:38.239 We were having exchanges back and forth before he did 2015 02:04:38.319 --> 02:04:43.920 his faux tiny mustache man debacle thing, which was kind 2016 02:04:43.960 --> 02:04:48.279 of ridiculous, and I think his Anglican synod made him 2017 02:04:48.279 --> 02:04:51.319 step down. We're just in this is such a weird 2018 02:04:51.399 --> 02:04:56.119 time to be alive where Kanye and Anglican black dudes 2019 02:04:56.199 --> 02:05:02.399 are like doing Roman salutes and putting up tiny mustache 2020 02:05:02.479 --> 02:05:06.680 man symbols. Like, it's just such a weird time to 2021 02:05:06.760 --> 02:05:08.399 be alive. I don't even know how to process it. 2022 02:05:08.880 --> 02:05:12.239 Like I'm not saying Calvin Robinson is a tiny mustache 2023 02:05:12.279 --> 02:05:15.840 Man follower. I know he's not. But we were actually 2024 02:05:15.960 --> 02:05:18.560 discussing having a kind of a debate, and then he 2025 02:05:18.720 --> 02:05:22.479 just kind of wind and bitched about me challenging him 2026 02:05:22.520 --> 02:05:24.319 to a debate when he said he would debate people. 2027 02:05:25.640 --> 02:05:28.760 It's just and by the way, like to give a 2028 02:05:28.840 --> 02:05:31.000 shout out to Dasha, I don't have anything against this 2029 02:05:31.119 --> 02:05:36.119 girl she put up. By the way, she was on 2030 02:05:36.760 --> 02:05:39.000 Sam Hyde's Perfect Guy Life, like right before I was 2031 02:05:39.119 --> 02:05:40.840 like a week or two before me, maybe a month 2032 02:05:40.880 --> 02:05:44.760 before me. I think she's an actress in some series. 2033 02:05:44.800 --> 02:05:49.199 I forget what, But she went from being on the left, 2034 02:05:49.560 --> 02:05:52.279 and she was part of Chapo Traphouse, remember that podcast. 2035 02:05:52.399 --> 02:05:56.399 And then now she is going to an Eastern Catholic 2036 02:05:56.520 --> 02:05:59.760 church and she's always tweeting about I'll debate anybody about 2037 02:05:59.760 --> 02:06:05.840 worths like stuff, and I'm like, let's do it, and uh, 2038 02:06:05.960 --> 02:06:08.000 I'm not going to be mean, and then she's like, oh, 2039 02:06:08.000 --> 02:06:10.079 I'm not going to quarrel during lent during Lent and 2040 02:06:10.159 --> 02:06:12.199 it's like, well, you just said you wanted to do it. 2041 02:06:12.359 --> 02:06:15.920 So it's like people put these things out where they 2042 02:06:15.960 --> 02:06:18.600 want to do this stuff, and Calvin Robinson did the 2043 02:06:18.640 --> 02:06:22.840 same thing, and then when you say all right, let's 2044 02:06:22.920 --> 02:06:25.960 do it, then suddenly they dash it. Whatever. She didn't 2045 02:06:25.960 --> 02:06:27.680 do this, but that Calvin Robinson did it was oh 2046 02:06:27.800 --> 02:06:29.439 look how look out what a piece of shit this 2047 02:06:29.560 --> 02:06:32.800 dude is. So it's like, I want to put myself 2048 02:06:32.840 --> 02:06:35.760 out there. I want to say I'm ready to debate anybody. 2049 02:06:35.840 --> 02:06:38.039 When people actually then say they want a debate. Look 2050 02:06:38.039 --> 02:06:40.199 at this piece of shit. Look at him. Oh he 2051 02:06:40.359 --> 02:06:42.880 just wants attention. Dude, you're the one saying that you 2052 02:06:42.960 --> 02:06:47.239 wanted this. What are you talking about. People on the 2053 02:06:47.319 --> 02:06:50.079 internet are just insane, man, They just don't It's like 2054 02:06:52.079 --> 02:06:54.439 and then everybody thinks I'm being mean. It's like, how 2055 02:06:54.479 --> 02:06:56.279 am I being mean if I'm asking them to come 2056 02:06:56.359 --> 02:06:59.880 have the discussion that they said they wanted, So now 2057 02:07:00.000 --> 02:07:02.279 I just don't want it with you. That's what it is. 2058 02:07:02.560 --> 02:07:02.600 Like. 2059 02:07:03.119 --> 02:07:05.319 They want to have the discussion with a bunch of idiots. 2060 02:07:05.359 --> 02:07:08.279 They don't want to have that with you. I feel 2061 02:07:08.319 --> 02:07:10.520 like I feel like I'm turning into Quentin. They don't 2062 02:07:10.520 --> 02:07:12.720 want to have that with me. Okay, I'm turning into 2063 02:07:12.840 --> 02:07:16.560 freaking Quentin Tarantino. Okay, like we're gonna We're not gonna 2064 02:07:16.560 --> 02:07:19.399 have that discussion because I'm gonna shut your butt down. Okay, 2065 02:07:19.760 --> 02:07:22.199 you want to have discussion, but now with me, Okay, 2066 02:07:22.439 --> 02:07:25.479 now with me, right, and let's just be freaking honest 2067 02:07:25.479 --> 02:07:31.800 about that. Okay, I'm turning into Tarantino. Jamie, welcome back. 2068 02:07:33.800 --> 02:07:39.680 Could you make me an espresso ex tanglia ten dollars? 2069 02:07:39.920 --> 02:07:43.560 Smash the leg button Wi Fi Gospel. We already read that. 2070 02:07:43.720 --> 02:07:45.720 Excuse me. I'm trying to make sure I didn't miss 2071 02:07:45.720 --> 02:07:50.880 the super shit. I feel like I did. We got that, 2072 02:07:51.000 --> 02:07:56.560 We got that, We got that, got that. Okay, we 2073 02:07:56.640 --> 02:07:59.279 get more over here on YouTube, Thoughlet's say Joshua Strove 2074 02:07:59.359 --> 02:08:02.479 into twenty Jay. I want to find an Orthodox church. 2075 02:08:02.600 --> 02:08:04.840 There's a few in my area. What do I need 2076 02:08:04.920 --> 02:08:09.279 to look for? Should I be aware of a humanism? Yeah, 2077 02:08:09.319 --> 02:08:11.159 I mean I think that's the big you know, if 2078 02:08:11.239 --> 02:08:16.960 he's if the priest seems you know, skittlesy or whatever, 2079 02:08:18.079 --> 02:08:20.000 just go to the other one. But I always tell 2080 02:08:20.039 --> 02:08:23.159 people don't worry about jurisdictions if you're new to Orthodoxy, 2081 02:08:23.239 --> 02:08:26.000 because it's not really a thing you have to worry 2082 02:08:26.039 --> 02:08:29.680 that much about. Like, if you're new, what you want 2083 02:08:29.720 --> 02:08:32.640 to do is check all the churches in your area 2084 02:08:32.960 --> 02:08:34.720 and find the one that's the best fit for you 2085 02:08:35.000 --> 02:08:38.239 based on the priest and the people there, because that's 2086 02:08:38.279 --> 02:08:41.680 going to be your family. So don't worry about internet 2087 02:08:42.520 --> 02:08:47.239 drama or whatever unless it's something like really you know big, 2088 02:08:47.920 --> 02:08:50.119 like I would stay away from LP to forests. He's 2089 02:08:50.159 --> 02:08:54.479 a notorious you know, marches with BLM people. I mean, 2090 02:08:54.520 --> 02:09:01.880 he's bad news. But don't worry about jurisdictions. Jason T. 2091 02:09:02.039 --> 02:09:05.319 Five bucks, Thank you so much. Theology explore two dollars 2092 02:09:06.399 --> 02:09:10.439 Hollywood requesting is from a reform background. Okay, I'll pull 2093 02:09:10.520 --> 02:09:16.399 him up if he's still there. Hey, Jamie, could you 2094 02:09:16.479 --> 02:09:21.359 make me an espresso? Thank you appreciate it. What's up man? 2095 02:09:21.399 --> 02:09:30.920 You know I'm mute? Do you turn your mic on? 2096 02:09:35.039 --> 02:09:35.479 I think. 2097 02:09:38.760 --> 02:09:54.399 Hollywood? What's up date? Leo? Leo DiCaprio, Thomas b How 2098 02:09:54.439 --> 02:09:59.159 are bishops that allow contraception or chrismate those who aren't 2099 02:09:59.279 --> 02:10:03.239 triple and is to be reviewed? Hey? 2100 02:10:06.520 --> 02:10:09.000 Yeah, sorry, So I have a question. I don't know 2101 02:10:09.000 --> 02:10:10.319 if it's properate to stream. 2102 02:10:10.119 --> 02:10:15.279 Or not, but I was basically asking, so, with the transcendental. 2103 02:10:14.800 --> 02:10:16.199 Argument, how did you make the jump from that? 2104 02:10:18.920 --> 02:10:21.720 I have a stream on still, how did you get 2105 02:10:21.720 --> 02:10:23.960 a jump from that to Christianity in the Bible? 2106 02:10:26.000 --> 02:10:29.039 Because the argument is an argument for an entire worldview 2107 02:10:29.079 --> 02:10:32.880 that includes a lot of metaphysical beliefs and ethical beliefs, 2108 02:10:33.000 --> 02:10:35.960 And the argument is that the Christian worldview also provides 2109 02:10:36.039 --> 02:10:39.079 the toolkit and the grounding for those metaphysical beliefs and 2110 02:10:39.119 --> 02:10:39.880 ethical beliefs. 2111 02:10:43.279 --> 02:10:44.720 Okay, yeah, this is a question. 2112 02:10:44.800 --> 02:10:46.600 Really, I was going to debate something else, but. 2113 02:10:47.520 --> 02:10:51.159 What's the other? So I'll get out? Thanks, what's the 2114 02:10:51.199 --> 02:10:51.920 other topic? You want? 2115 02:10:51.960 --> 02:10:53.399 But to that? No? 2116 02:10:53.680 --> 02:10:54.119 He left? 2117 02:10:54.760 --> 02:11:02.600 Okay, t K breaks five solas? Where's that guy? Is 2118 02:11:02.640 --> 02:11:06.279 that that guy that's posting the trail of blood stupid 2119 02:11:06.319 --> 02:11:15.880 stuff on the on Twitter. Oh my gosh, I've been 2120 02:11:15.920 --> 02:11:18.159 asking that guy to come to Baate for months. Where's 2121 02:11:18.159 --> 02:11:21.039 he at? Come on, dude, where are you at? Here's 2122 02:11:21.079 --> 02:11:24.079 the here calling right here? 2123 02:11:24.119 --> 02:11:24.279 Man? 2124 02:11:28.239 --> 02:11:31.479 Is he five solas or five the chad solas? I 2125 02:11:31.560 --> 02:11:38.199 forget this guy's name. It's like, t K, what's up? 2126 02:11:38.239 --> 02:11:38.359 Man? 2127 02:11:38.359 --> 02:11:38.760 I'm mute? 2128 02:11:46.359 --> 02:11:46.840 Hey, what's up? 2129 02:11:46.880 --> 02:11:47.319 Can you hear me? 2130 02:11:47.439 --> 02:11:47.560 Yes? 2131 02:11:47.640 --> 02:11:47.760 Sir? 2132 02:11:49.000 --> 02:11:49.760 Hey, how's it going? 2133 02:11:50.720 --> 02:11:51.439 What's on your mind? 2134 02:11:51.479 --> 02:11:54.920 I'm new to the channel. I just tuned in. 2135 02:11:55.640 --> 02:12:03.079 I saw the tag protestansm Protestantism is false, prove me wrong? 2136 02:12:05.159 --> 02:12:07.560 So and then I heard you say something about your 2137 02:12:07.600 --> 02:12:08.880 being like orthodox. 2138 02:12:09.239 --> 02:12:10.520 Yeah, so. 2139 02:12:12.319 --> 02:12:15.479 Do you think that Orthodoxy is like the one true Church? 2140 02:12:15.880 --> 02:12:16.039 Yes? 2141 02:12:17.239 --> 02:12:19.159 Okay, yeah. 2142 02:12:19.960 --> 02:12:24.039 Scripture would argue that I don't need to argue that, 2143 02:12:24.119 --> 02:12:27.680 because Scripture argues that for me. Jesus himself says that 2144 02:12:28.600 --> 02:12:33.000 he's against sectarianism, and I can tell you the verses. 2145 02:12:32.720 --> 02:12:37.640 Two, right, But this is prior to that, because I 2146 02:12:37.680 --> 02:12:40.079 would argue that the Orthodox Church is who put that 2147 02:12:40.199 --> 02:12:43.399 Bible together. So the reason that he's against sectarianism is 2148 02:12:43.439 --> 02:12:46.399 because he set up a College of Apostles who have 2149 02:12:46.560 --> 02:12:50.159 successors who are his church. So anyone who's not the 2150 02:12:50.279 --> 02:12:52.920 Orthodox Church is the sectarians that you're talking about. 2151 02:12:54.119 --> 02:12:58.119 Yeah, I'm sure you've had this argument before, but what 2152 02:12:58.279 --> 02:13:00.920 you just said is like self defeating because you just 2153 02:13:01.000 --> 02:13:03.399 said that if they were the ones that set up 2154 02:13:03.479 --> 02:13:07.119 the Bible, and in what is in the Bible is 2155 02:13:07.760 --> 02:13:10.319 the most true, which I believe it to be the 2156 02:13:10.399 --> 02:13:15.079 most true, then sectarianism is against Jesus' will? 2157 02:13:16.039 --> 02:13:17.800 Correct, right? I agree? 2158 02:13:18.079 --> 02:13:20.640 Yeah, yeah, So I don't know why you're like trying 2159 02:13:20.680 --> 02:13:21.439 to be divisive. 2160 02:13:22.359 --> 02:13:24.760 Well, I'm not being divisive because I'm calling people to 2161 02:13:24.920 --> 02:13:30.000 the unity of the same church that existed in the first, second, third, fourth, fifth, sixth, seventh, 2162 02:13:30.039 --> 02:13:32.520 eighth centuries. So we believe the same as those people. 2163 02:13:33.079 --> 02:13:36.199 That's the identical beliefs in church that we have today. 2164 02:13:36.680 --> 02:13:40.239 So that shows that whatever Protestant sect you're in is 2165 02:13:40.319 --> 02:13:41.640 the actual sectarianism. 2166 02:13:42.720 --> 02:13:46.319 I never said I was in one. In what a 2167 02:13:46.439 --> 02:13:47.439 Protestant sect? 2168 02:13:48.079 --> 02:13:49.039 Okay, what are you in? 2169 02:13:50.319 --> 02:13:51.560 I just follow the Bible? 2170 02:13:52.119 --> 02:13:55.399 Wells that doesn't exist. That's even worse, because that's worse 2171 02:13:55.479 --> 02:13:58.800 than a sectarian church that's you alone, that doesn't exist. 2172 02:14:02.119 --> 02:14:02.920 It does exist. 2173 02:14:03.439 --> 02:14:07.359 There's Bible, there's Bible churches. You can be a follower 2174 02:14:07.439 --> 02:14:10.119 of Christ and not belong to specific sect. 2175 02:14:12.239 --> 02:14:17.880 Jesus Jesus established. Jesus established a church, and that church. 2176 02:14:18.199 --> 02:14:20.560 If you look at Paul's epistles first and second, Timothy 2177 02:14:21.239 --> 02:14:24.560 is based around. In that case at Ephesus, the person 2178 02:14:24.640 --> 02:14:26.680 that Paul laid his hands on, who is Timothy. And 2179 02:14:26.720 --> 02:14:30.239 then Paul tells Timothy, don't pass on this apostolic deposit 2180 02:14:30.439 --> 02:14:33.279 without laying hands on somebody who you know is approved, 2181 02:14:33.359 --> 02:14:35.640 because it gives the gift of the Holy Spirit. That's 2182 02:14:36.000 --> 02:14:41.359 apostolic succession. It mirrors the example in numbers eleven where 2183 02:14:41.399 --> 02:14:44.720 Moses lays hands on the elders to give them authority 2184 02:14:44.840 --> 02:14:47.119 and the spirit that Moses had, so the Holy Spirit 2185 02:14:47.159 --> 02:14:50.640 goes from Moses to the seventy elders. That parallels the 2186 02:14:50.800 --> 02:14:55.039 apostolic succession of the New Testament, particularly enacts one where 2187 02:14:55.079 --> 02:14:58.560 you have a replacement for Judas, and it says that 2188 02:14:58.880 --> 02:15:03.479 replaced his office or episcopate. That's episcopal church government. And 2189 02:15:03.600 --> 02:15:05.560 that's why when I'm when I'm telling you, if you 2190 02:15:05.640 --> 02:15:08.399 look at the church in the first, second, third, fourth, fifth, 2191 02:15:08.520 --> 02:15:13.560 sixth seventh centuries. They don't teach evangelical do it yourself 2192 02:15:13.680 --> 02:15:17.239 Bible church stuff. They believe in what the Orthodox Church teaches. 2193 02:15:17.399 --> 02:15:18.800 So you're the sectarian. 2194 02:15:21.359 --> 02:15:24.279 I don't believe so, because it's very clear in the 2195 02:15:24.720 --> 02:15:29.479 even in the Apostles Creeds says they believe in the One. 2196 02:15:30.920 --> 02:15:33.560 Catholic Church. What what do you think Catholic means? 2197 02:15:33.720 --> 02:15:36.680 So we don't follow the Apostles creed? That's pseudonymous, that's 2198 02:15:36.720 --> 02:15:40.119 a Western creed. You're talking about the nice you constant 2199 02:15:40.159 --> 02:15:44.760 apolican Constantapolitan creed. It says one Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. 2200 02:15:44.840 --> 02:15:49.039 That's the four marks? Does your strip mall Bible Church? 2201 02:15:49.319 --> 02:15:49.880 The foremarts? 2202 02:15:50.960 --> 02:15:52.199 But you didn't answer my question. 2203 02:15:52.960 --> 02:15:56.079 I said, one Holy Catholic Episolic, the four Marks, that's 2204 02:15:56.119 --> 02:15:57.319 what's necessary for the church. 2205 02:15:58.760 --> 02:16:00.720 No, I asked you, what is Catholic mean? 2206 02:16:01.520 --> 02:16:05.640 Fullness of truth? According to the fathers who Yes, it does, 2207 02:16:05.800 --> 02:16:08.720 according to the fathers who composed that. That's what they 2208 02:16:08.800 --> 02:16:09.279 interpret it. 2209 02:16:09.319 --> 02:16:09.479 To me. 2210 02:16:10.399 --> 02:16:11.600 No, it means universal. 2211 02:16:11.840 --> 02:16:14.479 It means in the Orthodox Church, not just universality in 2212 02:16:14.560 --> 02:16:17.600 terms of numbers. Because Roman Catholics make this argument that 2213 02:16:17.680 --> 02:16:20.359 it means numbers in terms of universality. That's why I'm 2214 02:16:20.439 --> 02:16:25.520 qualifying it with fullness of truth. That's what it means 2215 02:16:25.560 --> 02:16:28.640 in the Orthodox Church. So it can't be numbers. Let 2216 02:16:28.680 --> 02:16:31.720 me give an example why in the fourth century the 2217 02:16:31.800 --> 02:16:36.079 majority of the church was aryan or semi arian. So 2218 02:16:36.280 --> 02:16:39.559 you can't identify it with a large number of people 2219 02:16:40.280 --> 02:16:41.520 the fullness. 2220 02:16:41.479 --> 02:16:45.000 You're conflating like a heresy with Yeah. 2221 02:16:45.479 --> 02:16:48.159 No, I'm not. I know this subject matter very well. 2222 02:16:48.200 --> 02:16:49.760 I'm not conflating anything. I'm telling you. 2223 02:16:50.200 --> 02:16:52.079 Because you've had these debates. 2224 02:16:51.799 --> 02:16:54.399 Over and no, I've studied this for twenty plus years. 2225 02:16:54.520 --> 02:16:55.319 It's not just abase. 2226 02:16:56.280 --> 02:17:00.639 What you're having is willful ignorance, like you're choosing to 2227 02:17:00.879 --> 02:17:04.280 disregard when people have told you in the past that 2228 02:17:04.559 --> 02:17:06.159 Catholic means universal. 2229 02:17:06.319 --> 02:17:09.239 No, I know what the word itself means. I'm giving 2230 02:17:09.280 --> 02:17:13.200 you the Orthodox explanation that it's not just a universality 2231 02:17:13.360 --> 02:17:16.360 sense of numbers. I'm giving you a deeper sense that 2232 02:17:16.479 --> 02:17:19.280 the Orthodox theological tradition gives it. I know that I 2233 02:17:19.360 --> 02:17:21.680 know what universality is. I learned this stuff twenty five 2234 02:17:21.760 --> 02:17:26.799 years ago. Dude, yea, yeah, yeah, So why are you 2235 02:17:26.879 --> 02:17:30.639 mocking me because of Your condescension and condescending attitude is 2236 02:17:30.719 --> 02:17:31.479 getting on my nerves. 2237 02:17:31.639 --> 02:17:32.959 I'm not being condescend you are. 2238 02:17:33.159 --> 02:17:35.559 You're talking about that people have told me this in 2239 02:17:35.600 --> 02:17:38.000 the past, and I wasn't rebuked properly and I didn't 2240 02:17:38.079 --> 02:17:40.040 listen to them. What are you even talking about. 2241 02:17:40.840 --> 02:17:41.760 I'm not rebuking you. 2242 02:17:42.040 --> 02:17:44.479 You said people in the past told me this, and 2243 02:17:44.600 --> 02:17:46.920 I'm being arrogant and I need to be rebuked. That's 2244 02:17:46.959 --> 02:17:50.799 what you're saying. Not being passive aggressive. Come on, get 2245 02:17:50.840 --> 02:17:51.959 to your point. What's your argument. 2246 02:17:52.799 --> 02:17:54.319 I'm not being passive aggressive either. 2247 02:17:54.840 --> 02:17:59.000 One Holy Catholic Apostolic does not mean stripball Bible church 2248 02:17:59.159 --> 02:17:59.760 like you believe. 2249 02:18:02.520 --> 02:18:03.959 Okay, that's that's just rude. 2250 02:18:05.920 --> 02:18:10.079 Okay, it's rude. Fun, It doesn't matter. What's your argument. 2251 02:18:10.799 --> 02:18:12.440 See, what you're doing is condescending. 2252 02:18:12.520 --> 02:18:14.239 Stop doing the two quote now you want to do it. 2253 02:18:14.559 --> 02:18:16.760 Stop telling policing. Get to the argument. 2254 02:18:16.799 --> 02:18:17.159 This is so. 2255 02:18:19.280 --> 02:18:21.879 Like you said, you belong to your own thing at 2256 02:18:21.879 --> 02:18:24.639 a Bible church. That's what strip mall Bible churches are. 2257 02:18:24.959 --> 02:18:27.159 Yeah, that's that's like super condescending. 2258 02:18:27.399 --> 02:18:29.440 So you know, I feel like, well, you're making bad 2259 02:18:29.520 --> 02:18:32.559 arguments because you started out wanting to argue that they 2260 02:18:33.120 --> 02:18:33.959 stop interrupting. 2261 02:18:34.319 --> 02:18:36.600 Is the Bible making bad arguments? Because I already told 2262 02:18:36.600 --> 02:18:38.440 you that it's the Bible that No, it's not. 2263 02:18:39.000 --> 02:18:40.959 You don't know. How do you have the right How 2264 02:18:40.959 --> 02:18:42.079 do you know you have the right Bible? 2265 02:18:44.000 --> 02:18:45.520 How do you know you have the right Bible? 2266 02:18:45.559 --> 02:18:47.520 I can look to the Orthodox I can look to 2267 02:18:47.559 --> 02:18:50.479 the Orthodox tradition and the canons of the Apostles that 2268 02:18:50.520 --> 02:18:51.319 we pulled up earlier. 2269 02:18:52.079 --> 02:18:54.120 Mm hmmm. And so they tell you it's like the 2270 02:18:54.239 --> 02:18:55.920 King James or something. 2271 02:18:56.200 --> 02:18:59.600 The King James, the Church Fathers. No, the canons of 2272 02:18:59.600 --> 02:19:02.319 the appoll muscles are like the three hundreds. That's not 2273 02:19:02.360 --> 02:19:05.079 going to be the King James. Goofas I know. 2274 02:19:05.200 --> 02:19:05.959 I was choking. 2275 02:19:06.120 --> 02:19:08.559 No, no, you didn't know what we're talking about. I'm 2276 02:19:08.559 --> 02:19:10.040 talking about Apostolic Canon eighty five. 2277 02:19:10.120 --> 02:19:16.120 You know what that is? The Apostolic Canon eighty five? 2278 02:19:16.280 --> 02:19:18.840 No, I don't know, right, So you are joking, you 2279 02:19:18.920 --> 02:19:19.479 have no idea? 2280 02:19:21.200 --> 02:19:22.760 I was joking about the King James thing. 2281 02:19:23.159 --> 02:19:24.760 Okay, how do you know that you have the right 2282 02:19:24.840 --> 02:19:25.719 Protestant Bible? 2283 02:19:27.920 --> 02:19:29.479 Okay, how do you know that I'm a Protestant. 2284 02:19:29.479 --> 02:19:32.479 That's a too My gosh, this is too stupid. We're done. 2285 02:19:33.719 --> 02:19:33.959 Bye. 2286 02:19:35.399 --> 02:19:53.040 That was the dumbest guy I've ever talked to. Nick. Nick. Yeah, 2287 02:19:57.280 --> 02:20:00.040 let's all Jay. Yeah, my bad. I don't know what 2288 02:20:00.159 --> 02:20:00.959 happened earlier. 2289 02:20:02.680 --> 02:20:05.120 Because I got booted out as soon as I answered 2290 02:20:05.360 --> 02:20:06.239 I asked my question. 2291 02:20:07.079 --> 02:20:12.639 But all right, can I want to go? I want 2292 02:20:12.639 --> 02:20:12.959 to ask the. 2293 02:20:13.040 --> 02:20:16.559 Question real quick, okay, and make it quick. Come on, yeah, 2294 02:20:18.719 --> 02:20:22.319 go real quick. 2295 02:20:22.360 --> 02:20:23.920 I know I started as a Protestant, and I'm looking 2296 02:20:23.920 --> 02:20:26.799 into the Orthodox Faith because I finally looked into early 2297 02:20:26.920 --> 02:20:27.719 Church history. 2298 02:20:27.520 --> 02:20:31.120 And saw my beliefs like fold before my eyes. So 2299 02:20:31.319 --> 02:20:32.440 I'm in shocked right now. 2300 02:20:32.600 --> 02:20:36.000 But I kind of want to ask, real quick, if 2301 02:20:36.040 --> 02:20:38.719 you can start all over in your journey and and 2302 02:20:38.840 --> 02:20:39.879 learn Orthodox faith. 2303 02:20:39.920 --> 02:20:42.559 But what would you do from the very beginning. You 2304 02:20:42.600 --> 02:20:44.600 don't have to go on like a long like like 2305 02:20:44.879 --> 02:20:46.159 right away read the Early Church. 2306 02:20:46.200 --> 02:20:50.280 Father'll take my time and not rush into it. Start 2307 02:20:50.360 --> 02:20:52.440 by reading Athanacious. Start by reading