1
00:00:01,760 --> 00:00:04,799
Speaker 1: Jamie, could you make me I express?

2
00:00:04,919 --> 00:00:08,240
Speaker 2: So okay, we're gonna open it up. Let's keep it

3
00:00:08,279 --> 00:00:08,919
on topic.

4
00:00:09,720 --> 00:00:15,000
Speaker 3: One plus one plus one equal free icons are Ideala, Tree, Jay,

5
00:00:15,320 --> 00:00:16,960
j but Jay, can I talk?

6
00:00:17,480 --> 00:00:18,120
Speaker 2: But it wasn't.

7
00:00:18,160 --> 00:00:20,519
Speaker 1: Next, cathod draf God is real?

8
00:00:20,559 --> 00:00:20,760
Speaker 4: Wife?

9
00:00:20,760 --> 00:00:24,160
Speaker 1: Does he allow evil? Why do you pray to dead people?

10
00:00:24,440 --> 00:00:27,719
Traditions of men? It's a no brainer. You're such a

11
00:00:27,800 --> 00:00:29,440
tyrannical rainer.

12
00:00:35,000 --> 00:00:36,399
Speaker 3: Is this your first.

13
00:00:36,119 --> 00:00:38,399
Speaker 5: Time on the in or wesh?

14
00:00:39,039 --> 00:00:41,799
Speaker 6: I need a changer, Joe can't think of.

15
00:00:41,679 --> 00:00:43,359
Speaker 1: These loads your slow boys?

16
00:00:44,920 --> 00:00:48,240
Speaker 3: Is this your first time on the in or wesh?

17
00:00:48,920 --> 00:00:49,840
Speaker 4: I need to changer?

18
00:00:50,079 --> 00:00:50,359
Speaker 7: Joe?

19
00:00:50,840 --> 00:00:52,479
Speaker 6: Was that an uncreative foot part?

20
00:00:53,240 --> 00:00:54,079
Speaker 2: Unmute, dude?

21
00:00:54,520 --> 00:00:55,880
Speaker 1: Stop repeating my name?

22
00:00:56,079 --> 00:00:56,399
Speaker 4: Dude?

23
00:00:56,520 --> 00:01:00,119
Speaker 2: You Goober's callin or I'll boot you. Where did you

24
00:01:00,200 --> 00:01:03,600
get the Bible from? Have you read the Canons of Franzia?

25
00:01:04,400 --> 00:01:05,519
Speaker 7: What are you Catholic?

26
00:01:05,799 --> 00:01:06,719
Speaker 1: Are you promisants?

27
00:01:06,879 --> 00:01:09,000
Speaker 3: I'm not trying to be mean, but do you have

28
00:01:09,079 --> 00:01:10,439
an actual argument?

29
00:01:10,719 --> 00:01:13,280
Speaker 2: There is only one church? You are in a cult.

30
00:01:13,799 --> 00:01:16,439
Speaker 1: You're a goblin, a demon, a boomer?

31
00:01:18,159 --> 00:01:18,879
Speaker 4: Quick question?

32
00:01:20,000 --> 00:01:22,959
Speaker 1: Do we have any diddyback venerators in the chat?

33
00:01:23,560 --> 00:01:26,079
Speaker 2: How is this your first time on.

34
00:01:26,239 --> 00:01:31,799
Speaker 1: Being or well, I need a chance take it these loads?

35
00:01:31,840 --> 00:01:32,879
Speaker 7: You're slow boys?

36
00:01:33,120 --> 00:01:34,120
Speaker 1: Are you?

37
00:01:34,400 --> 00:01:37,400
Speaker 2: Is this your first time momby wes?

38
00:01:38,480 --> 00:01:41,719
Speaker 3: I need a If you're a wine on front of

39
00:01:41,760 --> 00:01:42,640
the line.

40
00:01:42,680 --> 00:01:54,840
Speaker 1: I'm mute, dude, what is your epistemic justification?

41
00:01:55,799 --> 00:01:58,519
Speaker 8: That argument is circular and you are refuted.

42
00:02:00,439 --> 00:02:04,040
Speaker 3: Is this your first time on me? Or where shay

43
00:02:04,640 --> 00:02:07,519
I need a show? Can't take these littles.

44
00:02:07,599 --> 00:02:12,080
Speaker 1: You're snow boying. Is this your first time on me?

45
00:02:12,719 --> 00:02:16,639
Speaker 3: Or where I need to change your show? If you're

46
00:02:16,680 --> 00:02:18,639
a lie in front of the lie.

47
00:02:18,719 --> 00:02:49,120
Speaker 9: On mute, dude, it's that time to get you're freaking

48
00:02:49,240 --> 00:02:52,479
Oh wait, that's the wrong time. That's not this time?

49
00:02:53,159 --> 00:02:53,680
Is this time?

50
00:02:59,199 --> 00:03:02,840
Speaker 1: So where do we get the Bible from? Did you

51
00:03:02,919 --> 00:03:07,439
even read the cannons? There is only one charge. You

52
00:03:07,520 --> 00:03:08,840
are in an occult.

53
00:03:09,199 --> 00:03:12,159
Speaker 10: You're a gobbling a demon, a bull merchard.

54
00:03:12,360 --> 00:03:13,080
Speaker 7: You saw me?

55
00:03:13,840 --> 00:03:14,800
Speaker 4: I'm your dude?

56
00:03:15,800 --> 00:03:19,439
Speaker 6: Is this your personal webs?

57
00:03:20,000 --> 00:03:22,599
Speaker 2: I need a gender jew can't take it.

58
00:03:22,919 --> 00:03:23,800
Speaker 4: He's little to your.

59
00:03:24,240 --> 00:03:29,280
Speaker 6: Boys on your dude, I want us one plus one

60
00:03:29,319 --> 00:03:30,280
equal free.

61
00:03:31,639 --> 00:03:33,080
Speaker 1: It comes out the dollar tree.

62
00:03:34,960 --> 00:03:35,800
Speaker 11: Why do you pray?

63
00:03:35,879 --> 00:03:37,159
Speaker 1: Eat the dead people?

64
00:03:37,719 --> 00:03:49,840
Speaker 6: The traditions madden you? Heretic on your fude, is this

65
00:03:50,000 --> 00:03:52,800
your per webs shack.

66
00:03:53,840 --> 00:03:56,439
Speaker 7: I need a gender jew can't take it.

67
00:03:56,759 --> 00:03:57,599
Speaker 4: He's little to your.

68
00:03:58,080 --> 00:04:00,479
Speaker 1: Boys, I'm your dude.

69
00:04:02,439 --> 00:04:04,120
Speaker 4: What's your pistemic justification?

70
00:04:05,280 --> 00:04:07,000
Speaker 9: Welcome in circular.

71
00:04:14,759 --> 00:04:36,639
Speaker 4: To Jamie.

72
00:04:42,439 --> 00:04:47,040
Speaker 2: At the monkey. You find off in that.

73
00:04:49,240 --> 00:04:52,879
Speaker 9: What you're doing up there? Why you scared?

74
00:04:53,639 --> 00:04:55,879
Speaker 11: Why you run it roun.

75
00:04:55,879 --> 00:04:57,720
Speaker 1: Themy bab.

76
00:04:59,079 --> 00:05:02,800
Speaker 12: You ran my manto and from me?

77
00:05:07,879 --> 00:05:11,480
Speaker 6: Then till the monkey.

78
00:05:13,160 --> 00:05:16,120
Speaker 1: Like the female monkeys.

79
00:05:15,639 --> 00:05:20,199
Speaker 5: With the bananas between the trees, hanging.

80
00:05:20,040 --> 00:05:36,959
Speaker 6: Down upside down, that's a smile. SI, tell the monkey

81
00:05:37,279 --> 00:05:38,639
what you doing to me?

82
00:05:39,480 --> 00:05:44,160
Speaker 1: Till it to a monkey, till a mallcky.

83
00:06:12,319 --> 00:06:28,560
Speaker 9: Isn't this the trump downs? What's due to me?

84
00:06:41,439 --> 00:06:42,079
Speaker 4: That's true?

85
00:06:43,759 --> 00:06:47,319
Speaker 9: The road takes you. Chevy is ready to dar No,

86
00:06:49,160 --> 00:06:55,519
can't let advertisements ruined the beauty. Welcome everybody. It's that time.

87
00:06:56,519 --> 00:07:01,240
It's that time to get down and Sneezy. We're talking

88
00:07:01,240 --> 00:07:09,360
about all of the dang seven Dwarfs. Sneezy Snorty y'all,

89
00:07:09,519 --> 00:07:11,839
y'all know about Snorty the dwarf. He was over there

90
00:07:12,000 --> 00:07:16,879
doing a little of that cocaine. Little little snorty dwarf,

91
00:07:19,319 --> 00:07:24,879
like the O Bonn says, there was skanky. He was

92
00:07:24,959 --> 00:07:29,480
one of the Dwarfs. He was a nasty, just trashy kid,

93
00:07:29,800 --> 00:07:32,480
grew up in a trailer, drew up, he grew up

94
00:07:32,480 --> 00:07:35,439
in a living in out of a bus, and then

95
00:07:35,480 --> 00:07:39,680
got recruited into the Dwarf. In the Dwarf. Ops, that

96
00:07:39,959 --> 00:07:44,879
was Skanky the Dwarf. There was Snorty, Sneezy Snorty was

97
00:07:44,879 --> 00:07:49,720
all about cocaine. Skanky slutty the Dwarf. He was all

98
00:07:49,759 --> 00:07:58,519
about hoeing around town. So the allergies are turned up

99
00:07:58,560 --> 00:08:00,759
to eleven. I'm sorry, but you know, it's just how

100
00:08:00,800 --> 00:08:07,759
it is living down here in Cuba, down here with

101
00:08:07,879 --> 00:08:14,639
Operation Mongoose, Operation Mongoose of the CIA's y'all heard of that.

102
00:08:16,600 --> 00:08:20,519
Welcome everybody, It's open for him today. I wanted to

103
00:08:20,639 --> 00:08:23,560
try to try a different title. We'll see what happens.

104
00:08:23,959 --> 00:08:29,720
Protestantism is false. Prove me wrong, like like Steve Crowder

105
00:08:29,879 --> 00:08:33,480
style where you got to prove me wrong, Jay finally

106
00:08:33,559 --> 00:08:36,440
lost it. I don't want people like I do the

107
00:08:36,559 --> 00:08:39,240
same nonsense every time I'm sitting in front of this

108
00:08:39,399 --> 00:08:43,000
computer screen, every time I'm lobstream, and it's the same nonsense.

109
00:08:43,759 --> 00:08:45,600
You would think you guys would know it by now.

110
00:08:49,080 --> 00:08:51,240
H Brosey ten dollars. Have you seen what rid von

111
00:08:51,320 --> 00:08:54,000
AP's been posting? Yeah, I just DMed him. I DMed

112
00:08:54,080 --> 00:08:56,639
him the other day. I mean, I don't know what

113
00:08:57,399 --> 00:09:01,200
to say. I mean, what do you want me to do?

114
00:09:01,559 --> 00:09:04,440
I mean, I've offered to debate. I've offered to discuss

115
00:09:04,480 --> 00:09:11,679
the topics. I mean, anybody who wants to learn or

116
00:09:12,240 --> 00:09:15,519
whatever could always hop on these streams. Is very easy

117
00:09:15,600 --> 00:09:17,759
to do. They can come over here if they want to.

118
00:09:21,000 --> 00:09:23,320
When you got a debate, Pastor Randy Balls bread in

119
00:09:23,399 --> 00:09:27,519
ten dollars, that's one debate. I am scared of. People say, who,

120
00:09:27,720 --> 00:09:29,240
why are you scared of debate? So and so I'm

121
00:09:29,279 --> 00:09:32,000
not scared of debate anybody except for Pastor Randy Balls.

122
00:09:34,240 --> 00:09:36,799
Rozie says. I understand he's new, everybody has baggage, but

123
00:09:37,000 --> 00:09:39,759
he sounded like a subverter. To be honest, he needs

124
00:09:39,840 --> 00:09:43,200
to be checked. I mean, if he keeps pushing you know,

125
00:09:43,519 --> 00:09:46,399
LPTA for us and that kind of stuff, then yeah,

126
00:09:46,720 --> 00:09:55,799
I mean it's unfortunate, but we'll see Kyle Kosha twenty bucks. Respectfully,

127
00:09:55,840 --> 00:10:00,919
how is Christianity the One True Faith? Which brand of Christianity? Well,

128
00:10:01,000 --> 00:10:05,799
I mean the fact that people disagree doesn't prove or

129
00:10:05,879 --> 00:10:13,840
disprove anything. Every position out there is going to have

130
00:10:13,919 --> 00:10:17,399
people within it or adjacent to it that disagree with it.

131
00:10:18,159 --> 00:10:23,000
But people mistake disagreements and debate, with the truth itself

132
00:10:23,159 --> 00:10:29,600
being unknowable. Which brand of Christianity is a correct one? Well,

133
00:10:29,639 --> 00:10:31,759
you're going to have to spend some time and learn

134
00:10:31,799 --> 00:10:35,600
about it, because there's no other way really to deal

135
00:10:35,679 --> 00:10:40,399
with the competing claims. But just because there's competing claims

136
00:10:41,080 --> 00:10:45,080
doesn't invalidate the system itself. Otherwise every system would be

137
00:10:45,120 --> 00:10:49,919
invalidated because everybody has competing claims. How can I If

138
00:10:50,000 --> 00:10:52,200
I can't trust mainstream media, why would I trust two

139
00:10:52,200 --> 00:10:56,039
thousand year old texts? Well, that's a false equivalence. The

140
00:10:56,120 --> 00:10:59,919
fact that something old doesn't necessarily mean it's true or false.

141
00:11:01,360 --> 00:11:08,279
But mainstream media has a repeated record of being demonstrably false,

142
00:11:08,960 --> 00:11:12,720
So I would just say those are false equivalences. But again,

143
00:11:13,759 --> 00:11:16,720
I make the argument, if you're a skeptic, skepticism is

144
00:11:16,759 --> 00:11:20,080
self refuting, all right, And if that's self refuting, then

145
00:11:20,559 --> 00:11:23,720
what are the options for non skeptical positions? And that's

146
00:11:23,759 --> 00:11:27,399
what moves us into tags, what moves us into arguments

147
00:11:27,440 --> 00:11:31,080
for the positions that we have. So if there's a

148
00:11:31,159 --> 00:11:36,279
better position, then somebody needs to come argue those positions.

149
00:11:37,519 --> 00:11:39,759
But Kyle, you're welcome to call in. It's open for him.

150
00:11:40,399 --> 00:11:43,320
We got already about five or six people in line.

151
00:11:44,200 --> 00:11:47,960
The link is in the chat. It's also in the

152
00:11:47,960 --> 00:11:52,759
show description. You can call in to debate or ask

153
00:11:52,919 --> 00:11:59,000
questions right here. Today. I thought I saw gigantic Protestant

154
00:11:59,039 --> 00:12:04,879
profiles everywhere and just mega followings of Protestant thought leaders

155
00:12:05,000 --> 00:12:07,879
or whatever they are. So I thought, you know, we

156
00:12:07,960 --> 00:12:11,639
spent so much time debating Roman Catholics and Romanclachs are

157
00:12:11,639 --> 00:12:14,559
welcome calling today too. I don't care. So it's still

158
00:12:14,639 --> 00:12:17,919
somewhat open. But I'm just trying out a different headline,

159
00:12:17,960 --> 00:12:20,639
a different title to refute. See if you can get

160
00:12:20,639 --> 00:12:24,559
some of these Protestants in here, because multiple Protestants have

161
00:12:24,639 --> 00:12:29,759
made videos about me this week. So JW two dollars

162
00:12:29,879 --> 00:12:32,879
debate n JF on the role of geopolitics in the Vatican.

163
00:12:33,559 --> 00:12:35,120
I mean, I heard a clip of him the other

164
00:12:35,200 --> 00:12:41,639
day admitting that the geopolitical elements have subverted the Catholic Church,

165
00:12:41,840 --> 00:12:45,960
so it's difficult to defend it is what he said.

166
00:12:46,600 --> 00:12:47,960
I don't know if he's an old clipper or a

167
00:12:48,000 --> 00:12:51,200
new clip or what. But I don't know that he

168
00:12:51,240 --> 00:12:55,279
wants to have that debate. J Man ten dollars, have

169
00:12:55,360 --> 00:12:59,600
a blessed lint. Keep fighting. Thank you, Jordaane Jordaan ten Bucks.

170
00:13:01,080 --> 00:13:05,279
You must forsake Yakubian punctuality. Yet today I was on

171
00:13:05,399 --> 00:13:09,679
time and punctual. But that's because of yakub Warpick Gaming.

172
00:13:09,960 --> 00:13:12,639
Shout out to Warpick Gaming. He hopped in here, became

173
00:13:12,679 --> 00:13:16,600
a member. Remember, you can become a member through YouTube

174
00:13:16,679 --> 00:13:18,720
or through the website as well. You can go to

175
00:13:18,759 --> 00:13:21,559
the Jaysonnalysis website and sign up. Become a member, get

176
00:13:21,639 --> 00:13:27,200
access to all the last ten years of archived lectures, talks, podcasts, interviews,

177
00:13:27,759 --> 00:13:33,720
book reviews, deep geopolitical conspiratorial true conspiratorial analysis where we

178
00:13:33,799 --> 00:13:39,240
go into espionage and the real that's real conspiracy, right conspiracy.

179
00:13:39,320 --> 00:13:44,919
That's all this like cornball shit like Tartaria and stuff

180
00:13:44,919 --> 00:13:50,000
like that. That's that's fake stuff. Real conspiracy is James

181
00:13:50,080 --> 00:13:54,000
Jesus Angleton and backdoor channels to foreign nations and JFK.

182
00:13:54,279 --> 00:14:00,919
That's real conspiracy. Austin Austin Kyle Bucks, thank you, for

183
00:14:00,960 --> 00:14:02,679
all your content, Jay, you help me find in the

184
00:14:02,720 --> 00:14:06,120
way to the orthoxy. Appreciate that, dude, Zach fifteen dollars,

185
00:14:06,159 --> 00:14:08,399
I appreciate all your work. Are we going to get

186
00:14:08,440 --> 00:14:11,840
a Sam Shumun discussion anytime soon? I don't know.

187
00:14:12,039 --> 00:14:12,399
Speaker 4: I mean.

188
00:14:14,200 --> 00:14:21,480
Speaker 9: Again, we're still discussing the possibility of doing rival presentations

189
00:14:21,559 --> 00:14:27,200
on Sam's channel between me and Albrecht, So I don't

190
00:14:27,200 --> 00:14:28,799
know if that's gonna happen or when that's going to happen,

191
00:14:28,879 --> 00:14:33,200
but it's always they're the possibilities there. Nikki d what's up?

192
00:14:33,279 --> 00:14:33,399
Speaker 4: Man?

193
00:14:40,799 --> 00:14:43,080
Speaker 9: If you guys would hit like and share, what's up?

194
00:14:43,159 --> 00:14:46,200
Nikki dep I'm you, hey, Jake.

195
00:14:47,039 --> 00:14:50,080
Speaker 7: Yeah, I just want to say that that the status

196
00:14:50,159 --> 00:14:58,000
quo that Protestants enable is perfection. What I just want

197
00:14:58,039 --> 00:15:00,799
to say, the status quo Protestants enable is perfection.

198
00:15:01,360 --> 00:15:04,480
Speaker 9: You know that what does that matter? What does that mean?

199
00:15:04,879 --> 00:15:06,360
Speaker 7: I mean, I mean whole.

200
00:15:06,240 --> 00:15:10,200
Speaker 13: White like snow white, whole white and the seven Blood

201
00:15:10,360 --> 00:15:16,440
Diamond Dwarfs like the Protestants by their Salvationist theology, you know,

202
00:15:16,559 --> 00:15:19,960
they they are in denial that a problem exists and

203
00:15:20,120 --> 00:15:23,240
they can just ask for forgiveness on their deathbat about it.

204
00:15:23,399 --> 00:15:23,559
Speaker 14: You know.

205
00:15:26,879 --> 00:15:32,559
Speaker 9: Yeah, that's a difficulty because there's not really a change

206
00:15:32,799 --> 00:15:46,200
that's required in the person ocean apg man, what's up, good,

207
00:15:46,279 --> 00:15:53,679
I'm you? Oh wait hello, hey, right, sorry, quick question.

208
00:15:54,600 --> 00:15:57,919
Speaker 11: So what's the difference of Like, where do you draw

209
00:15:57,960 --> 00:16:03,000
the line between continue with the Old Testament and judea isa?

210
00:16:04,799 --> 00:16:07,320
Speaker 9: Well, I think the New Testament lays down some guidelines

211
00:16:07,399 --> 00:16:10,279
and then the rest of the Apostolic tradition would be

212
00:16:10,320 --> 00:16:13,080
the other guidelines. So the guidance of the church as

213
00:16:13,159 --> 00:16:17,480
the established authority being via Apostolic succession, the College of

214
00:16:17,480 --> 00:16:20,480
the Apostles that Jesus set up, they would be able

215
00:16:20,559 --> 00:16:23,679
to make further decisions as you see for example in

216
00:16:23,720 --> 00:16:27,399
the quarter Disseminarian controversy in the second third century, the

217
00:16:27,519 --> 00:16:29,840
Nicene Council ruling on some of these things as to

218
00:16:29,960 --> 00:16:32,440
what's appropriate and not appropriate in terms of the Old Testament.

219
00:16:32,879 --> 00:16:35,200
So it's a twofold thing between what's in the New

220
00:16:35,279 --> 00:16:40,120
Testament and what the Apostolic tradition and the Apsoltic succession rules.

221
00:16:41,639 --> 00:16:47,039
Speaker 11: Okay, so basically, well, correct me if I'm wrong. But

222
00:16:47,200 --> 00:16:49,960
what I'm kind of hearing is that the way to

223
00:16:50,600 --> 00:16:54,679
so the difference is it's kind of close, like they're

224
00:16:54,799 --> 00:16:59,159
pretty related. And the only way to avoid falling into

225
00:16:59,360 --> 00:17:03,200
like judaizing you hatra rely in the church, is that

226
00:17:03,279 --> 00:17:04,039
what you're kind of saying.

227
00:17:06,400 --> 00:17:08,960
Speaker 9: The principles are laid down in the New Testament in

228
00:17:09,160 --> 00:17:13,119
general as to what things are fulfilled and which things

229
00:17:13,200 --> 00:17:17,480
are still quote binding. But Jesus gave the apostles the

230
00:17:17,559 --> 00:17:20,759
authority to bind and to loose and to make those decisions,

231
00:17:21,240 --> 00:17:24,160
and their successors have that same authority to bind and

232
00:17:24,279 --> 00:17:27,640
to loose, So that means the ability to decide what

233
00:17:27,839 --> 00:17:31,000
things are normative, for example, for gentiles to come into

234
00:17:31,039 --> 00:17:33,960
the church. And if you look at Acts fifteen, that's

235
00:17:34,000 --> 00:17:36,480
an example of that binding and loosing power. Where the

236
00:17:36,519 --> 00:17:39,559
apostles get together they look at the Covenant of Noah

237
00:17:39,720 --> 00:17:41,799
and they reason that if Noah was able to be

238
00:17:41,880 --> 00:17:46,920
made righteous through the Noeic Covenant, then the expectation should

239
00:17:46,960 --> 00:17:49,960
be no more for gentiles that convert to the Church.

240
00:17:50,680 --> 00:17:55,079
And that same principle is what you see in the first, second,

241
00:17:55,119 --> 00:17:58,359
and third century when the Church has to make similar

242
00:17:58,400 --> 00:17:59,279
types of decisions.

243
00:18:00,000 --> 00:18:04,640
Speaker 4: Okay, thank you, yes, that was a good question.

244
00:18:10,039 --> 00:18:17,000
Speaker 9: Quell quell unbreller, and then we'll go to Erwan.

245
00:18:28,960 --> 00:18:29,000
Speaker 10: H.

246
00:18:29,079 --> 00:18:32,079
Speaker 9: Brozy sends five bucks and says, lmfao that dude started

247
00:18:32,160 --> 00:18:34,839
off son it's goods so as as f but he

248
00:18:34,920 --> 00:18:36,880
redeemed himself. He made a decent point. Yeah, I think

249
00:18:36,960 --> 00:18:39,839
so cool. A two dollars. I appreciate your work bringing

250
00:18:39,880 --> 00:18:43,480
people to the truth. Thank you, man, appreciate that. Theosis

251
00:18:44,599 --> 00:18:50,599
Pilgrim ten dollars. You There. Genesis Creation Early Man is

252
00:18:50,680 --> 00:18:51,200
back in print.

253
00:18:51,279 --> 00:18:51,680
Speaker 4: Yes, I know.

254
00:18:51,759 --> 00:18:55,079
Speaker 9: I think I tweeted about it or talked about it

255
00:18:55,200 --> 00:18:59,799
on a recent stream. Erwan, you want to I'm mute, Hey.

256
00:18:59,720 --> 00:19:02,359
Speaker 15: Jay, I just had a question, who do you think

257
00:19:02,440 --> 00:19:06,960
would win in a fight between Yakub and Messiah and sasquestion.

258
00:19:09,119 --> 00:19:16,200
Speaker 9: I'm wondering if Yakoub might actually be incarnate as Messiah

259
00:19:16,279 --> 00:19:24,799
been Sasquatch. So that's actually a trick question, Joshua. Theosis

260
00:19:24,839 --> 00:19:27,200
Pilgrim said that Early Genesis Creation, Early Man, my father

261
00:19:27,240 --> 00:19:29,720
siprom Ros is back in print. It's a hardcover, good quality.

262
00:19:29,960 --> 00:19:32,720
I laugh pretty hard at Messiah and Sasquatch. Well, I

263
00:19:33,319 --> 00:19:37,880
couldn't believe that one of the Mormon prophets claims that

264
00:19:38,920 --> 00:19:41,720
Sasquatch is real and it's Kane. We went and looked

265
00:19:41,759 --> 00:19:43,559
it up Joshua and mute, what's up?

266
00:19:43,599 --> 00:19:43,720
Speaker 16: Man?

267
00:19:44,759 --> 00:19:46,920
Speaker 4: Yeah, what's happened? I just have one question. Do you

268
00:19:47,000 --> 00:19:49,759
think Protestants are going to Hell or not?

269
00:19:50,920 --> 00:19:53,359
Speaker 9: I mean, I don't judge people on an individual basis,

270
00:19:53,799 --> 00:19:57,880
but I judge the public confession of their groups. So

271
00:19:58,079 --> 00:20:01,000
this is this is what's called in the tradition of

272
00:20:01,519 --> 00:20:06,559
legal theory jurisprudence, you know, a public judgment. So public

273
00:20:06,640 --> 00:20:09,960
judgment means I'm judging the profession of that group and

274
00:20:10,079 --> 00:20:12,119
what they stand for. It doesn't mean that I know

275
00:20:12,279 --> 00:20:15,279
the eternal destiny of each of those persons. But Protestantism

276
00:20:15,559 --> 00:20:19,400
is really just a confluence of almost all of the

277
00:20:19,519 --> 00:20:23,680
ancient heresies of the first six seventh centuries, all right.

278
00:20:23,880 --> 00:20:31,599
I mean, I'm just thinking more and more about how Americanists,

279
00:20:31,759 --> 00:20:35,400
you know, Protestanism is and just how you know, it's

280
00:20:35,599 --> 00:20:38,440
really just a do it yourself. I don't need anyone else,

281
00:20:38,480 --> 00:20:41,200
I don't need anything else. And you see all of

282
00:20:41,240 --> 00:20:45,599
these you know, influencers with all of these you know,

283
00:20:45,759 --> 00:20:49,920
millions of people, and it's just like, how do how

284
00:20:49,960 --> 00:20:52,640
do people? Does it just never occur to anybody that

285
00:20:54,160 --> 00:21:01,519
there's a history to all this stuff. So guys remember

286
00:21:01,680 --> 00:21:04,160
looking for people who would like to discuss the topics

287
00:21:04,240 --> 00:21:09,440
as listed, particularly Protestantism, but it's also open to Catholics, Muslims, whoever.

288
00:21:10,160 --> 00:21:24,799
Quelln Rayler, Okay, I'm mute.

289
00:21:26,160 --> 00:21:28,960
Speaker 17: Yeah, I was just went to say anyway, my question

290
00:21:29,079 --> 00:21:33,440
is related to eschatology. You know how like the institution

291
00:21:33,559 --> 00:21:35,880
of meat, right, God instituted the eating of meat, and

292
00:21:36,079 --> 00:21:39,599
after price res Russian, he ate a fish. So do

293
00:21:39,640 --> 00:21:41,880
you think that in the Esketon, since there's no death,

294
00:21:41,960 --> 00:21:42,920
how are we gonna eat fish?

295
00:21:42,960 --> 00:21:46,920
Speaker 9: And like meat and stuff, our bodies won't need that

296
00:21:47,079 --> 00:21:49,480
type of sustenance. I think he does it as a

297
00:21:50,279 --> 00:21:53,480
condescension to show that it's the same body as before.

298
00:21:54,200 --> 00:21:56,240
I don't think he did it because his body needed

299
00:21:56,279 --> 00:21:59,720
that sustenance. And in the Esketon, our bodies will not

300
00:22:00,079 --> 00:22:02,640
need the type of sustenance that we need now. It'll

301
00:22:02,680 --> 00:22:05,359
be a glorified body. So I don't think there will

302
00:22:05,400 --> 00:22:07,799
be eating of meat now, Carl Minger, it won't be necessary.

303
00:22:15,759 --> 00:22:20,400
Speaker 18: Aka, yes, sir, Hey, I was listening to your Mormon

304
00:22:20,440 --> 00:22:23,680
stream the other day, and I was born and raised Mormon.

305
00:22:24,680 --> 00:22:27,359
Speaker 14: I actually grew up believing that Gane was Sasquatch.

306
00:22:27,480 --> 00:22:32,759
Speaker 9: Oh really, Yeah, so this is kind of widely believed.

307
00:22:32,759 --> 00:22:34,240
There are just a few people believe it.

308
00:22:35,559 --> 00:22:38,960
Speaker 14: I think it's mainly with the older generation. I was

309
00:22:39,039 --> 00:22:41,960
told this by my dad, who was a boomer. He

310
00:22:42,119 --> 00:22:44,880
converted when he was in his early twenties.

311
00:22:46,559 --> 00:22:49,160
Speaker 9: Wow. Well, so what led you out of Mormonism?

312
00:22:51,680 --> 00:22:55,160
Speaker 18: Well, a lot of the history and then it just

313
00:22:55,319 --> 00:22:57,799
it just led me to atheism because they believe in

314
00:22:57,839 --> 00:23:01,319
they believe in the name, it's a physical body that

315
00:23:01,400 --> 00:23:02,160
lives on a planet.

316
00:23:03,920 --> 00:23:06,279
Speaker 9: I'm sorry the ad popped on. They believe in what

317
00:23:06,400 --> 00:23:07,359
can you repeat what you said?

318
00:23:08,720 --> 00:23:11,359
Speaker 14: They believe in a god that has a body that

319
00:23:11,480 --> 00:23:13,319
lives out and on a planet.

320
00:23:13,680 --> 00:23:17,039
Speaker 9: Yeah, right, Like it's like an alien god. And I

321
00:23:17,240 --> 00:23:20,680
just kind of completely Yeah, it's a it's a it's

322
00:23:20,799 --> 00:23:26,079
like it's like scientology, like it's a sci fi space opera.

323
00:23:27,599 --> 00:23:32,000
Speaker 14: Yeah yeah yeah, And I mean and like Battles for Galactica. Yeah,

324
00:23:32,119 --> 00:23:33,319
that's something my dad always told me.

325
00:23:33,359 --> 00:23:35,640
Speaker 4: He's like, yeah, that's right in my Mormons exactly.

326
00:23:35,720 --> 00:23:37,400
Speaker 9: Yeah. We covered that the other day on that stream

327
00:23:37,480 --> 00:23:41,119
because Lords of Colob, that's a Mormon thing, right Colob.

328
00:23:42,240 --> 00:23:46,200
Speaker 14: Yeah, Yeah, they'd have hymns to uh p were to

329
00:23:46,279 --> 00:23:47,400
hide to Colob.

330
00:23:50,200 --> 00:23:52,519
Speaker 9: Well, you know anything else you want to leave us with.

331
00:23:52,559 --> 00:23:53,160
I appreciate that.

332
00:23:55,359 --> 00:23:57,839
Speaker 18: It led me into atheism for a good fifteen years,

333
00:23:57,960 --> 00:23:59,839
and then I found the Orthodox Church and I was

334
00:24:00,119 --> 00:24:02,079
seeing into the church in January.

335
00:24:02,400 --> 00:24:04,720
Speaker 9: Oh awesome, man, many years. Do you appreciate that? Good

336
00:24:04,759 --> 00:24:08,400
to hear it? Yeah? I think it was gonna if

337
00:24:08,440 --> 00:24:13,440
I was gonna choose, you know, maybe Star Wars before

338
00:24:13,519 --> 00:24:16,720
Disney got a hold of it. Maybe believe believe in

339
00:24:16,759 --> 00:24:18,039
that sci fi universe.

340
00:24:18,240 --> 00:24:18,599
Speaker 7: I don't know.

341
00:24:18,680 --> 00:24:20,680
Speaker 9: I'm trying to think of which sci fi universe I

342
00:24:20,799 --> 00:24:24,720
want to live there. Uh But Orson Scott Card is

343
00:24:24,799 --> 00:24:27,400
a Mormon sci fi writer, so that makes sense too,

344
00:24:27,480 --> 00:24:32,319
because he writes like in his Enders Game and all that,

345
00:24:32,559 --> 00:24:35,799
like the not the planets are different religions. So there's

346
00:24:35,839 --> 00:24:39,119
a Catholic planet, there's a Mormon planet, and a Protestant planet.

347
00:24:40,240 --> 00:24:49,480
If I remember correctly, Jennifer, the Lords sounds like a

348
00:24:49,599 --> 00:24:52,160
metal like a death metal man to Lords of Kolob.

349
00:24:56,319 --> 00:24:59,839
What's up, Jeffer, Yes, ma'am, I was.

350
00:25:00,000 --> 00:25:02,799
Speaker 19: I want to ask about some of your articulations of

351
00:25:03,039 --> 00:25:04,839
the monarchical trinitarian you.

352
00:25:06,319 --> 00:25:09,799
Speaker 2: So when you describe the difference between the Father, Sun.

353
00:25:09,640 --> 00:25:12,839
Speaker 19: Holy Spirit, as the Father is like the source or

354
00:25:13,359 --> 00:25:15,519
you know, the fount or give heard a couple of

355
00:25:15,519 --> 00:25:19,759
different words, how would you articulate the difference between his

356
00:25:20,079 --> 00:25:23,160
being the source of self existence and obviously the Sun

357
00:25:23,240 --> 00:25:25,119
and Spirit also being uncreated.

358
00:25:25,720 --> 00:25:26,799
Speaker 2: What is the difference between that?

359
00:25:28,160 --> 00:25:31,839
Speaker 9: Because it's an eternal generation and any internal spiration, so

360
00:25:32,400 --> 00:25:35,039
it's not a cause in a temporal sense or the

361
00:25:35,079 --> 00:25:38,599
way that creatures are caused. The more of the Mormons

362
00:25:38,640 --> 00:25:42,880
that the Aryans raise this objection to Saint Athanasius when

363
00:25:42,920 --> 00:25:45,559
they when the Cappadocians, or when he talked about cause

364
00:25:46,200 --> 00:25:48,960
the Eunomians to the Cappadocians, and the Arians to Athanasius,

365
00:25:49,000 --> 00:25:54,119
they would say, well, cause implies temporal change and coming

366
00:25:54,200 --> 00:25:56,799
into being when you were not. And the answer is

367
00:25:56,880 --> 00:26:00,839
that cause is used in an analogical sense of an

368
00:26:00,920 --> 00:26:04,599
eternal causing. So it's an eternal causing and coming forth.

369
00:26:04,680 --> 00:26:08,119
It's not a beginning with a temporal sequence of something

370
00:26:08,200 --> 00:26:11,000
coming to be. That's why the Son is eternally begotten

371
00:26:11,160 --> 00:26:14,440
and eternally generated of the Father. In fact, this is

372
00:26:14,559 --> 00:26:18,599
not just my quote monarchical trinitarianism. It's what the original

373
00:26:18,720 --> 00:26:22,960
Nicene Creed says, following the theology of Athanasius, that the

374
00:26:23,079 --> 00:26:26,839
Father is the eternal source of the eternally begotten Son,

375
00:26:27,400 --> 00:26:30,640
and then the Kappadocians qualify that and make it more

376
00:26:30,680 --> 00:26:35,240
specific in their writings to specify that the father's the

377
00:26:35,359 --> 00:26:38,440
soul cause Soli, and then the son and the Spirit

378
00:26:38,480 --> 00:26:43,640
are differentiated by their respective hypostetic properties, the son to

379
00:26:44,039 --> 00:26:46,279
being generated, the spirit proceeding.

380
00:26:48,960 --> 00:26:51,599
Speaker 19: So could I think of it sort of like how

381
00:26:52,200 --> 00:26:56,440
when Christ becomes incarnate in the flesh, he self limits himself.

382
00:26:56,480 --> 00:26:59,079
It's not that he lacks the power when he's human

383
00:26:59,680 --> 00:27:02,480
to do the things that are proper to God. It's

384
00:27:02,799 --> 00:27:07,559
just sort of the place that is appropriate for the son.

385
00:27:08,160 --> 00:27:10,839
So it's not that the spirit or the son necessarily

386
00:27:11,000 --> 00:27:13,640
lacks the power to be self existent.

387
00:27:13,720 --> 00:27:17,079
Speaker 2: It's just the order that is the most.

388
00:27:18,359 --> 00:27:20,519
Speaker 9: I don't know how to if you look at So

389
00:27:20,680 --> 00:27:24,519
this is a Muslim argument. It's called the Eunomian premise,

390
00:27:24,599 --> 00:27:27,599
and the argument is that in order to be divine,

391
00:27:27,720 --> 00:27:31,839
you must have the characteristic of being self existing, or

392
00:27:31,920 --> 00:27:35,880
to be assay, And that's actually a logical fallacy. There's

393
00:27:35,920 --> 00:27:38,880
nothing about being amongst the class of things that are

394
00:27:38,920 --> 00:27:43,799
quote divine or uncreated that necessitates being self existent, because

395
00:27:43,880 --> 00:27:47,440
for us, being self existent is part of what we

396
00:27:47,599 --> 00:27:49,359
mean when we pick out the person of the father.

397
00:27:49,880 --> 00:27:53,279
The father alone is the self existent one, or the

398
00:27:53,440 --> 00:27:56,799
unoriginate one, according to the Kappadocians. But the fact that

399
00:27:56,880 --> 00:27:59,559
he generates a son and generates a spirit who lack

400
00:27:59,680 --> 00:28:03,720
that hypostatic property does not mean that they can't share

401
00:28:03,759 --> 00:28:06,319
or don't have the same nature. So just like a

402
00:28:06,440 --> 00:28:10,960
father begets a son, the son derives that nature from

403
00:28:11,039 --> 00:28:14,519
the father that begot him right in a human sense,

404
00:28:14,920 --> 00:28:17,359
but he doesn't have any less of the human nature

405
00:28:17,480 --> 00:28:20,400
because he lacks being the source or the origin of

406
00:28:20,519 --> 00:28:23,440
his nature. So in the same way, you would have

407
00:28:23,640 --> 00:28:30,079
to demonstrate that divinity somehow necessarily requires being awse to

408
00:28:30,279 --> 00:28:33,079
prove what's called the Unomian premise. And if you watch

409
00:28:33,240 --> 00:28:36,960
the way that doctor bo Branson critiques Jake the muslim

410
00:28:37,000 --> 00:28:39,960
Ata physician in their debate, is precisely upon this point.

411
00:28:40,359 --> 00:28:44,440
Another way to look at this is so, for example,

412
00:28:44,559 --> 00:28:49,160
we talk about carnivore and omnivore right to be amongst

413
00:28:49,200 --> 00:28:53,400
the class of things that are meat eaters. Omnivores are

414
00:28:53,480 --> 00:28:58,400
meat eaters, but they also eat other things, right, such

415
00:28:58,440 --> 00:29:02,000
as vegetables. Of wars do not eat vegetables, they only

416
00:29:02,079 --> 00:29:05,480
eat meat, But they're both amongst the class of things,

417
00:29:05,799 --> 00:29:09,799
right that are quote meat eaters. It's just that omnivores

418
00:29:09,880 --> 00:29:13,519
have more properties or attributes right that pick them out,

419
00:29:14,160 --> 00:29:17,519
But they're still all amongst the class that's more general

420
00:29:17,599 --> 00:29:20,799
of things called meat eaters. So do you see that

421
00:29:21,039 --> 00:29:24,160
lacking one of the properties does not mean that you're

422
00:29:24,200 --> 00:29:28,000
not amongst the same class. So just because spirit and

423
00:29:28,200 --> 00:29:32,079
son lack the property of being self existing, does not

424
00:29:32,279 --> 00:29:35,920
mean that they lack the divine nature. Because in our theology,

425
00:29:36,400 --> 00:29:39,799
self existing one or to be assay is particularly a

426
00:29:40,480 --> 00:29:43,119
property of the person of the father. It's related to

427
00:29:43,160 --> 00:29:47,640
the hypostatic properties, and hypocytic properties are not shared, okay,

428
00:29:47,839 --> 00:29:50,160
because that picks out the father as the soul cause

429
00:29:50,160 --> 00:29:52,880
of the fount, the unorriginal one, the self existing one.

430
00:29:55,359 --> 00:29:59,519
Speaker 19: So being uncreated would be obviously all three of them.

431
00:30:00,480 --> 00:30:03,480
And then just because I guess my brain is stuck

432
00:30:03,519 --> 00:30:07,160
in this like temporal like time for like time matters

433
00:30:07,240 --> 00:30:10,599
to me because I'm in time rather than being you know.

434
00:30:10,680 --> 00:30:14,920
Speaker 2: The eternal generation. It's just kind of hard to wrap

435
00:30:15,000 --> 00:30:15,480
my head around.

436
00:30:15,559 --> 00:30:17,720
Speaker 9: But well, it is a mystery, right, It's a mystery

437
00:30:17,759 --> 00:30:20,039
that the Father has eternally generated to somebody who read

438
00:30:20,119 --> 00:30:22,559
John one, I mean John speaks in that way, right.

439
00:30:22,640 --> 00:30:25,000
He says that even when Jesus was amongst us, he

440
00:30:25,119 --> 00:30:26,960
was eternal, he was always in the bosom of the Father.

441
00:30:27,039 --> 00:30:29,160
He never left the bosom of the Father, even when

442
00:30:29,200 --> 00:30:29,880
he was incarnate.

443
00:30:30,559 --> 00:30:33,799
Speaker 2: M okay, yeah, that's that's very helpful.

444
00:30:33,839 --> 00:30:34,240
Speaker 4: Thank you for that.

445
00:30:35,160 --> 00:30:37,599
Speaker 2: Do you mind if I ask about Hebrew six?

446
00:30:38,240 --> 00:30:38,279
Speaker 14: No?

447
00:30:39,880 --> 00:30:43,240
Speaker 2: Uh, so, I I guess I would still call it.

448
00:30:43,279 --> 00:30:45,599
I'm not I wouldn't probably wouldn't call myself a Protestant still,

449
00:30:45,599 --> 00:30:47,200
I've been an inquirer for a little while.

450
00:30:47,640 --> 00:30:51,960
Speaker 19: But speaking about sort of the idea of you know,

451
00:30:52,039 --> 00:30:56,839
being eternally secure in Hebrew six, would this imply if

452
00:30:56,880 --> 00:31:01,599
it's not implying internal security, which probably doesn't as I'm

453
00:31:01,680 --> 00:31:02,799
reading it, you know more?

454
00:31:03,880 --> 00:31:06,680
Speaker 9: Well, remember these are these are Christians that have converted,

455
00:31:06,799 --> 00:31:09,680
that have been baptized their Hebrews. So when Paul talks

456
00:31:09,720 --> 00:31:14,000
about being enlightened and tasting the gift, he's talking about

457
00:31:14,079 --> 00:31:17,880
baptism and Eucharist, and he's talking about becoming a partaker

458
00:31:17,920 --> 00:31:22,000
of the Spirit, and he says, you've already tasted of

459
00:31:22,240 --> 00:31:25,960
the age to come. Okay, that's not a false believer.

460
00:31:26,440 --> 00:31:29,400
That's somebody who's really participated in the grace and in

461
00:31:29,480 --> 00:31:32,720
the Covenant. Yeah, and there's a real possibility of being

462
00:31:32,839 --> 00:31:35,559
cut out of that covenant exactly the way he warns

463
00:31:36,079 --> 00:31:38,759
the church at Rome and Romans eleven. You guys can

464
00:31:38,799 --> 00:31:41,440
be cut out if you're unbelieving, if you're unfaithful, and

465
00:31:41,440 --> 00:31:42,680
if you're arrogant puffed up.

466
00:31:44,960 --> 00:31:47,960
Speaker 19: So would this imply that if you are at that

467
00:31:48,119 --> 00:31:52,519
point where you have been baptized in, you've received the Eucharist,

468
00:31:52,599 --> 00:31:54,960
and then you fall away, that there is that there's

469
00:31:55,079 --> 00:31:57,960
no coming back from that, that you are.

470
00:31:57,960 --> 00:31:59,599
Speaker 2: Crucifying Christ a second time.

471
00:31:59,759 --> 00:32:00,200
Speaker 7: If you.

472
00:32:01,960 --> 00:32:02,960
Speaker 2: Attempt to come back.

473
00:32:02,920 --> 00:32:05,480
Speaker 9: Well, I think that that there's always the possibility of

474
00:32:05,519 --> 00:32:09,440
people repenting, and God's grace can reach anyone. But no,

475
00:32:09,599 --> 00:32:12,799
if you persist until the end, right, and you die

476
00:32:12,960 --> 00:32:16,400
without that, that's the hardening of the heart, That is

477
00:32:16,480 --> 00:32:18,720
the rejection of the spirit, right, that's the blasphem of

478
00:32:18,720 --> 00:32:21,480
the Holy Spirit. So you know the fact that people

479
00:32:21,680 --> 00:32:24,359
might fall away from Christianity and then come back to

480
00:32:24,480 --> 00:32:26,720
it later in life or something like that. I don't

481
00:32:26,759 --> 00:32:28,519
think that it's I don't think Paul is saying that

482
00:32:29,400 --> 00:32:32,720
a person who doubts and disbelieves can never come.

483
00:32:32,640 --> 00:32:36,640
Speaker 19: Back again, Okay, and then just one of those things,

484
00:32:36,640 --> 00:32:42,039
if that's okay. I watched the video that you've recommended

485
00:32:42,079 --> 00:32:45,400
a couple of times from Orthodox Shahada about the continuity

486
00:32:45,480 --> 00:32:49,359
between the Old Testament and the Divine Liturgy, which was

487
00:32:49,480 --> 00:32:51,599
very helpful and I'm very thankful for that. By the way,

488
00:32:51,640 --> 00:32:54,519
it was a great video. Is there any sort of

489
00:32:54,680 --> 00:33:00,240
historical lineage for the sort of chanting or the way

490
00:33:00,279 --> 00:33:03,160
that the text is read in the Divine Liturgy?

491
00:33:04,039 --> 00:33:06,759
Speaker 9: Yeah, it's exactly. It's directly out of the synagogue, the

492
00:33:06,839 --> 00:33:09,079
way that the synagogue has chanters and canters.

493
00:33:11,039 --> 00:33:13,519
Speaker 2: Awesome, Well, thank you so much. I really appreciate it.

494
00:33:13,559 --> 00:33:13,799
Speaker 7: Thanks you.

495
00:33:15,559 --> 00:33:29,079
Speaker 9: Those are really good questions. Appreciate that. Jacob Jordain five bucks.

496
00:33:29,160 --> 00:33:31,200
I love Sam. But oddly it seems that the claims

497
00:33:31,200 --> 00:33:34,480
a Vatican two and him seeing the anti trinitarian errors

498
00:33:34,559 --> 00:33:36,039
of Catholicism.

499
00:33:35,599 --> 00:33:36,240
Speaker 2: Is not enough.

500
00:33:38,440 --> 00:33:40,559
Speaker 9: Well, I mean, you know, we'll see. It takes time.

501
00:33:40,680 --> 00:33:42,599
People have to work through these issues. It took me

502
00:33:42,680 --> 00:33:44,279
a long time to work through a lot of these issues.

503
00:33:44,359 --> 00:33:58,759
So what's up, Jacob? Are you there got anute? Guys,

504
00:33:58,799 --> 00:34:00,400
you gotta turn your mic on if you're coming out.

505
00:34:00,400 --> 00:34:02,839
We're looking for Protestants, so please don't be all the

506
00:34:02,880 --> 00:34:04,880
same Orthodox people to call in every time I do it.

507
00:34:05,000 --> 00:34:10,079
Last room, Chrisky.

508
00:34:09,480 --> 00:34:18,880
Speaker 4: Master, Hey, can you hear me?

509
00:34:20,840 --> 00:34:24,880
Speaker 8: I sort of had like three main questions because I

510
00:34:25,039 --> 00:34:29,880
was watching, like I think there were more early sort

511
00:34:29,880 --> 00:34:33,280
of videos about tag and and sort of that whole thing.

512
00:34:33,960 --> 00:34:36,480
Speaker 2: And I remember I was.

513
00:34:36,480 --> 00:34:38,679
Speaker 8: On TikTok yesterday just kind of scrolling through and I

514
00:34:38,760 --> 00:34:40,079
ended up debating these Muslims.

515
00:34:41,400 --> 00:34:45,719
Speaker 14: And one of the one of the things that was really.

516
00:34:45,599 --> 00:34:46,280
Speaker 2: Confusing to me.

517
00:34:46,639 --> 00:34:48,599
Speaker 8: I mean, I think you mentioned earlier is the idea

518
00:34:48,679 --> 00:34:52,719
that in order to have divine nature you have to

519
00:34:52,920 --> 00:34:56,360
also have been unngenerated basically, and the way that the

520
00:34:56,440 --> 00:35:03,320
father is Wait, who said that, uh for I think

521
00:35:03,320 --> 00:35:04,320
it was a Muslim or something like that.

522
00:35:04,400 --> 00:35:07,960
Speaker 9: That's the Muslim argument. That's exactly what the woman before

523
00:35:08,039 --> 00:35:13,400
you was saying. Yeah, so you want an answer to that?

524
00:35:15,559 --> 00:35:19,159
Speaker 8: Well, so sort of I guess because of the response

525
00:35:19,199 --> 00:35:23,719
that I had was a most eloquent way of answering

526
00:35:23,840 --> 00:35:24,239
that you did.

527
00:35:24,320 --> 00:35:25,599
Speaker 13: But then another thing.

528
00:35:27,920 --> 00:35:30,559
Speaker 8: That I was kind of thinking about was sort of

529
00:35:30,639 --> 00:35:31,440
the temporal thing.

530
00:35:31,480 --> 00:35:32,800
Speaker 2: That's one thing I really did have to get my

531
00:35:32,840 --> 00:35:36,440
head around pretty harshly, was.

532
00:35:36,519 --> 00:35:38,800
Speaker 7: The idea that even though.

533
00:35:40,199 --> 00:35:42,559
Speaker 8: The Son and the Spirit are generated from the Father,

534
00:35:42,679 --> 00:35:47,679
that doesn't mean that they don't share divine nature. And

535
00:35:47,760 --> 00:35:51,039
it was something that kind of like I understood it subtly,

536
00:35:51,320 --> 00:35:54,239
but it wasn't something that I fully understood until I

537
00:35:54,320 --> 00:35:58,280
started kind of looking into like different qualifiers, so what

538
00:35:58,400 --> 00:35:59,400
divine nature even is?

539
00:36:03,800 --> 00:36:07,920
Speaker 2: And then the second thing, the second.

540
00:36:07,639 --> 00:36:10,960
Speaker 8: Thing that I have like a sort of question on

541
00:36:11,360 --> 00:36:14,960
was specifically about the I don't know I say it properly,

542
00:36:15,039 --> 00:36:17,320
but the seven Ecumenical Councils.

543
00:36:17,079 --> 00:36:17,440
Speaker 12: Right is that?

544
00:36:20,280 --> 00:36:23,719
Speaker 8: So I was I was wondering, uh, because this is

545
00:36:23,760 --> 00:36:25,719
one thing where like when I was becoming Christian, I

546
00:36:25,840 --> 00:36:30,960
was kind of weighing between Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism. What

547
00:36:31,119 --> 00:36:35,559
it's specifically with the Roman I guess, uh, I guess

548
00:36:35,559 --> 00:36:36,320
there's probably.

549
00:36:36,079 --> 00:36:40,960
Speaker 2: Multiple points, but with the Ecumenical.

550
00:36:40,360 --> 00:36:44,719
Speaker 8: Councils, I don't know which one it was, but it's.

551
00:36:44,639 --> 00:36:46,079
Speaker 14: Basically the Uh.

552
00:36:47,719 --> 00:36:52,039
Speaker 8: The Roman Catholicism like uh idolization and stuff like that,

553
00:36:52,199 --> 00:36:55,159
where you see that like a lot of and this

554
00:36:55,280 --> 00:36:56,960
is something that I noticed distinctly, is that a lot

555
00:36:57,000 --> 00:37:01,800
of like the idols and the art, like the illustrations

556
00:37:01,840 --> 00:37:04,760
they have, they seem almost.

557
00:37:04,840 --> 00:37:05,760
Speaker 9: Like very h.

558
00:37:07,280 --> 00:37:08,039
Speaker 5: Like very uh.

559
00:37:08,440 --> 00:37:10,480
Speaker 8: I just in here would probably be the best way

560
00:37:10,480 --> 00:37:12,119
I could put it, though it's probably not a great way.

561
00:37:12,519 --> 00:37:18,360
Speaker 9: Yeah, they're they're they're emotionalists, they're sensationalist, they are essentially

562
00:37:18,559 --> 00:37:23,599
it's essentially pagan art. So you're asking what specifically rebukes that, Well,

563
00:37:24,519 --> 00:37:27,119
if the principles of the Canons of the seven Ecumenical

564
00:37:27,199 --> 00:37:29,480
councils lay out the beginning of that, or excuse me,

565
00:37:29,559 --> 00:37:31,920
the Seventh Council. So the Seventh Ecamenical Council and its

566
00:37:32,000 --> 00:37:35,840
canons mentions icons multiple times in the canons, and it says,

567
00:37:35,880 --> 00:37:41,159
for example, you cannot make images of the Father. Later on,

568
00:37:41,920 --> 00:37:45,760
in eight forty three, there is the Byzantine Synod, which

569
00:37:45,800 --> 00:37:48,840
we call the Orthodox Church the Triumph of Orthodoxy Sunday.

570
00:37:48,880 --> 00:37:51,599
This is when the iconic class were defeated and the

571
00:37:51,840 --> 00:37:56,079
icons were restored. That council put together a document which

572
00:37:56,239 --> 00:38:00,719
is called the sonatacon Sonoticon goes into great d listing

573
00:38:00,800 --> 00:38:02,920
all of the heresies and all the things that are condemned,

574
00:38:04,000 --> 00:38:09,320
many different positions and errors. It reaffirms other statements about iconography.

575
00:38:09,800 --> 00:38:12,440
The book you want to read is Theology the Icon

576
00:38:12,599 --> 00:38:16,400
Volume one and two by Lasky and Ospensky. Particularly volume

577
00:38:16,480 --> 00:38:20,519
two goes into much more detail about the Palamite theological

578
00:38:21,079 --> 00:38:24,519
principles behind iconography. There's a whole chapter on that, and

579
00:38:24,599 --> 00:38:26,840
then later on you get into the principles that are

580
00:38:26,920 --> 00:38:30,920
laid out in the Moscow Icon Synods about why certain

581
00:38:31,000 --> 00:38:34,800
things are wrong in terms of iconography. Which icons are heterodox,

582
00:38:34,880 --> 00:38:37,280
for example, the ones that teach the Philly oquay. So

583
00:38:37,760 --> 00:38:40,519
all of that needs to be taken into account. And

584
00:38:40,719 --> 00:38:43,360
some people misunderstood when I made the icon video. They

585
00:38:43,400 --> 00:38:46,360
thought that I was saying that the seven of that

586
00:38:46,440 --> 00:38:49,760
con Medical Council explicitly says we reject Roman Catholic artwork.

587
00:38:49,920 --> 00:38:52,960
I said nothing like that. In the Orthodox Church, when

588
00:38:53,000 --> 00:38:56,119
the eight forty three Council states the triumph of Orthodoxy,

589
00:38:56,280 --> 00:38:58,400
that for us is part of the Seventh Council. That's

590
00:38:58,480 --> 00:39:00,840
the victory of the Seventh Council. We don't have this

591
00:39:01,000 --> 00:39:03,719
legalistic Roman Catholic view that the only thing that matters

592
00:39:04,239 --> 00:39:06,840
is the document that the Pope signs off on. For us,

593
00:39:06,880 --> 00:39:10,519
those are holistically part of the liturgical tradition. And so

594
00:39:10,679 --> 00:39:15,199
if the eight forty three Triumph of Orthodoxy pronouncements in

595
00:39:15,239 --> 00:39:19,679
the Sonoticon become part of the Orthodox universal universal liturgical tradition,

596
00:39:20,119 --> 00:39:22,280
for us, they're received, and they're part of our dogmas,

597
00:39:22,320 --> 00:39:25,079
They're part of our tradition. Yes, I know that the

598
00:39:25,159 --> 00:39:28,639
Sonaticon has variations in it, and I know that different bishops,

599
00:39:28,639 --> 00:39:32,800
even up into today, can add groups that are rejected,

600
00:39:32,960 --> 00:39:36,880
such as the Joe's Witnesses, other cults and sex can

601
00:39:36,960 --> 00:39:41,760
be mentioned in modern bishops versions of the Sonaticon. But

602
00:39:42,320 --> 00:39:44,519
the principle is still the same, and the principles of

603
00:39:44,559 --> 00:39:47,960
the iconographic tradition are still the same. And the best

604
00:39:48,000 --> 00:39:51,400
book on that is the volume two of Lavsky Knowspensky.

605
00:39:51,519 --> 00:39:54,039
And if you read that, you will see that all

606
00:39:54,079 --> 00:39:55,920
of the things that you've heard me argue over the

607
00:39:56,000 --> 00:39:59,480
last early years, they're all laid out there. So I'm

608
00:39:59,519 --> 00:40:03,519
not making up things or randomly just saying crap, And

609
00:40:03,599 --> 00:40:05,440
I have no idea where I'm getting in I'm just

610
00:40:05,519 --> 00:40:09,159
asserting stuff. I give you guys the books and the

611
00:40:09,280 --> 00:40:11,760
references all the time, but there's a lot of really

612
00:40:11,840 --> 00:40:17,320
low quality, low tier, low information voters, especially online, who

613
00:40:17,360 --> 00:40:19,320
don't know any of this stuff. Guys, if you what

614
00:40:19,480 --> 00:40:21,480
we have with over a one thousand people a minute

615
00:40:21,519 --> 00:40:23,320
ago and we got two hundred and seventy five likes,

616
00:40:23,400 --> 00:40:26,400
hit Like, let's put this up to the top. Let's

617
00:40:26,400 --> 00:40:30,079
get some good callers, let's get some good exchanges with

618
00:40:30,280 --> 00:40:32,639
Wi Fi Gospel five bucks. Hey, what's the orthodox understanding

619
00:40:32,639 --> 00:40:35,519
of tewod Peter three sixteen? How did Peter know that

620
00:40:35,559 --> 00:40:40,559
Paul's writing for scripture? Peter was a divinely inspired apostle,

621
00:40:40,880 --> 00:40:44,679
and so when he preached or teached, taught, excuse me,

622
00:40:44,920 --> 00:40:47,599
preached or taught the Word of God, he knew it

623
00:40:47,880 --> 00:40:50,559
was inspired word of God. Likewise, he would have also

624
00:40:50,599 --> 00:40:56,360
been able to recognize Paul's authoritative teaching, and he presumably

625
00:40:56,440 --> 00:40:58,559
then had access to and knowledge of what's called the

626
00:40:58,599 --> 00:41:01,639
autograph of the autogra are the ones that Paul himself wrote.

627
00:41:02,039 --> 00:41:05,480
Nobody has these. We don't have AUTOGRAPHA. All we have

628
00:41:06,000 --> 00:41:11,000
in the church are copies of the apostolic writings and

629
00:41:11,039 --> 00:41:15,159
the Gospels, and that's why the church tradition is absolutely

630
00:41:15,320 --> 00:41:20,039
necessary to understanding and knowing the candidate scripture. And that's

631
00:41:20,079 --> 00:41:24,039
a huge point against Protestantism. It's not just the argument

632
00:41:24,079 --> 00:41:27,599
as many low tier Protestants have misunderstood, because many bad

633
00:41:27,719 --> 00:41:31,079
Roman Catholic apologists say, you don't have infallible pope, so

634
00:41:31,159 --> 00:41:33,920
you can't know the Bible infallibly. That's kind of a

635
00:41:33,960 --> 00:41:37,079
bad argument, and we don't go that route because one

636
00:41:37,360 --> 00:41:41,119
is an epistemic question about individual certitude and to just

637
00:41:41,159 --> 00:41:43,280
say that the pope tells you that just moves a

638
00:41:43,320 --> 00:41:45,159
problem back and stuff, because it assumes that you can

639
00:41:45,360 --> 00:41:51,280
accurately interpret the pope's teachings. Secondly, that's a question of normativity.

640
00:41:51,440 --> 00:41:54,639
Normativity means the ability to buying people. Kind of like

641
00:41:54,760 --> 00:41:59,639
the Supreme Court interprets the Constitution. It's not everybody in

642
00:41:59,679 --> 00:42:02,199
America just interpreting it the way they want. There's an

643
00:42:02,599 --> 00:42:05,840
authority that has the ability to bind people to that

644
00:42:06,000 --> 00:42:09,519
interpretation and to bind consciences. And that's something that the

645
00:42:09,559 --> 00:42:14,280
Protestant Reformation is premised on. Rejecting. Protestant theology from the

646
00:42:14,360 --> 00:42:16,840
Reformation on says that they have the freedom of conscience,

647
00:42:16,880 --> 00:42:19,960
the rights of private interpretation. That's a rejection of the

648
00:42:20,079 --> 00:42:24,400
notion of normative authority. That's a different question from individual

649
00:42:24,559 --> 00:42:27,639
existential certitude about how do I know what the Canons

650
00:42:27,639 --> 00:42:30,760
scripture is? How do I know that Matthew wrote Matthew.

651
00:42:30,960 --> 00:42:34,440
Those are difficult questions and they cannot be divorced once

652
00:42:34,480 --> 00:42:37,639
you get into this from the history of the church

653
00:42:38,320 --> 00:42:40,639
and the history of the bishops and the Apostolic sees

654
00:42:41,679 --> 00:42:45,400
maintaining the tradition, for example, that Matthew wrote Matthew's Gospel.

655
00:42:46,679 --> 00:42:51,880
You see, why aren't you Catholic? I mean, I've got

656
00:42:52,320 --> 00:42:54,599
thirteen hundred videos on my channel telling you why I'm

657
00:42:54,599 --> 00:42:55,039
not Catholic.

658
00:42:55,119 --> 00:42:55,320
Speaker 10: Dude.

659
00:42:56,480 --> 00:42:59,840
Speaker 9: That's why we have these open discussions here almost every

660
00:42:59,840 --> 00:43:03,280
other day, and all you have to do is call

661
00:43:03,320 --> 00:43:05,639
in right here. So if you want to go to

662
00:43:05,679 --> 00:43:08,599
the head of the line, and please, guys, I'm looking

663
00:43:08,639 --> 00:43:12,960
for people who are Protestant or Catholic or Muslim. I

664
00:43:13,039 --> 00:43:16,480
want them to call in. So take your catechumen questions

665
00:43:17,239 --> 00:43:21,920
to your priest. I'm not your catechist, Okay. If you

666
00:43:21,960 --> 00:43:23,880
don't have a catechist, then I understand you're in a

667
00:43:23,920 --> 00:43:26,639
difficult situation. But every time I do this, all the

668
00:43:26,760 --> 00:43:29,480
Orthodox catechumens and inquirers come in here and they pile

669
00:43:29,559 --> 00:43:32,239
in and they take up all the time that could

670
00:43:32,320 --> 00:43:36,360
go to people who are Protestant or Muslim who need

671
00:43:36,440 --> 00:43:39,280
to hear these things. So don't take up other people's

672
00:43:39,360 --> 00:43:44,239
times just because you want your question about fasting or

673
00:43:44,480 --> 00:43:47,480
calendars or whatever. That's not what this is for. Okay,

674
00:43:47,519 --> 00:43:51,079
It's listed very clear Protestantism is false. So I want

675
00:43:51,119 --> 00:43:53,639
those people to come on. Please do not bring me

676
00:43:54,000 --> 00:43:57,880
your Orthodox catechuman questions. You do that at your church

677
00:43:57,960 --> 00:44:02,000
with your catechists hushed tones.

678
00:44:05,480 --> 00:44:06,280
Speaker 14: Yo, can you hear me?

679
00:44:07,480 --> 00:44:07,840
Speaker 2: Awesome?

680
00:44:08,079 --> 00:44:10,639
Speaker 20: Sweet, I've been a long time listener, so I'm glad

681
00:44:10,679 --> 00:44:12,320
I finally have something to ask.

682
00:44:12,440 --> 00:44:14,280
Speaker 4: But I promise it's not a catech human question.

683
00:44:16,000 --> 00:44:18,519
Speaker 20: So, like, I have an older family member right who's

684
00:44:18,559 --> 00:44:22,039
a lifelong Baptist, and ever since I've been getting into Orthodox,

685
00:44:22,079 --> 00:44:23,320
he's been more curious about it.

686
00:44:24,159 --> 00:44:27,039
Speaker 4: But it kind of seems like that like being a like,

687
00:44:27,199 --> 00:44:28,800
so his view, he's.

688
00:44:28,719 --> 00:44:33,079
Speaker 20: Super into like Luther and Aquinas, but he also believes

689
00:44:33,159 --> 00:44:36,440
in the Book of Enoch when that like contradicts Sola

690
00:44:36,519 --> 00:44:39,840
script Torah. And then he's also super into like always

691
00:44:39,880 --> 00:44:44,039
telling me about how the elites are doing the Kabbalah rituals.

692
00:44:44,119 --> 00:44:47,639
The Trump getting shot was a ritual, and the JFK

693
00:44:47,800 --> 00:44:51,679
stuff was a Masonic ritual. So like he's as a Baptist,

694
00:44:51,760 --> 00:44:55,360
he's giving this like mystical power to these other like factions,

695
00:44:55,440 --> 00:44:55,639
you know.

696
00:44:56,280 --> 00:44:59,960
Speaker 5: So and then as a Baptist it leaves, it leaves.

697
00:44:59,840 --> 00:45:03,519
Speaker 21: His are sacraments are mysticism as an Eastern Orthodox world

698
00:45:03,679 --> 00:45:06,840
just as Christians in general as like merely symbolic and

699
00:45:07,000 --> 00:45:10,239
not like giving us any like counter like to you know,

700
00:45:10,400 --> 00:45:14,639
counteraction to this like mystical you know, evil or whatever.

701
00:45:14,840 --> 00:45:18,760
So like, how does like Protestantism like ultimately leave to

702
00:45:18,920 --> 00:45:22,760
like lead to the self defeating worldview where like we're

703
00:45:22,840 --> 00:45:23,960
just reduced to symbols.

704
00:45:24,079 --> 00:45:25,159
Speaker 4: But then all these other.

705
00:45:25,400 --> 00:45:28,079
Speaker 9: Like traditions and oh that's an interesting point. Yeah, So,

706
00:45:28,440 --> 00:45:34,639
like Protestantism sees the religion and particularly the way that

707
00:45:35,159 --> 00:45:38,119
you know, the Lord's Supper or baptism, right, like Protestantism

708
00:45:38,199 --> 00:45:41,679
sees that primarily as a kind of a symbolic function,

709
00:45:42,400 --> 00:45:46,840
which is ironic because they have a judaized idea of

710
00:45:47,400 --> 00:45:50,320
the sacraments, because their view of sacraments, for the most part,

711
00:45:50,920 --> 00:45:53,800
unless they're high charged Protestants, is more or less the

712
00:45:53,880 --> 00:45:57,079
way that we would say the Old Testament quote, sacraments functioned, right,

713
00:45:57,199 --> 00:46:00,639
So circumcision or the temple rituals or whatever the Old Testament,

714
00:46:00,679 --> 00:46:04,480
which are primarily typological pointing forward to the fulfillment of

715
00:46:04,480 --> 00:46:08,440
the New Testament, Protestants really see the New Testament sacraments

716
00:46:08,679 --> 00:46:13,039
as functionally no different than the Old Testament sacraments. And

717
00:46:13,199 --> 00:46:15,719
the way that Paul argues, for example, and colautions, is

718
00:46:15,800 --> 00:46:21,679
that circumcision was the type baptism. The ritual is the reality,

719
00:46:21,920 --> 00:46:25,960
you see. So the New Testament sacraments bring the reality

720
00:46:26,199 --> 00:46:32,480
and the power that the Old Testament sacraments foreshadowed, you see.

721
00:46:33,480 --> 00:46:39,079
So to go back to a Old Testament notion of

722
00:46:39,199 --> 00:46:42,440
what we think the sacraments in the Old Testament, this

723
00:46:42,679 --> 00:46:46,920
pure symbolism type of view, like a Baptist, is retrograde, right.

724
00:46:47,079 --> 00:46:50,000
It's removing the power. And it reminds me of what

725
00:46:50,079 --> 00:46:53,320
Paul talks about a religion the form of godliness but

726
00:46:53,440 --> 00:46:59,000
lacking the power thereof. But they will grant to sorcerers

727
00:46:59,159 --> 00:47:05,760
and Talmudic magicians like all this magical power to run giant,

728
00:47:06,079 --> 00:47:09,519
huge rituals and all this stuff. It's silly, But I

729
00:47:09,559 --> 00:47:11,239
would say if I can, if you said it was

730
00:47:11,280 --> 00:47:13,400
your uncle or your dad or whatever, but I would

731
00:47:13,440 --> 00:47:15,800
just say, you know, older people are not going to

732
00:47:15,880 --> 00:47:18,360
listen to you debating the position. You might as well

733
00:47:18,480 --> 00:47:35,559
just invite him to church or something like that. Unism okay,

734
00:47:35,719 --> 00:47:38,519
So if Forrest Drake won't come in here to debate,

735
00:47:39,159 --> 00:47:45,119
just to boot the guy like this is okay, he

736
00:47:45,199 --> 00:47:47,800
has no idea. Charles Francis, come in debate, you have

737
00:47:47,880 --> 00:47:49,679
no idea what we're even talking about. This is so

738
00:47:50,920 --> 00:47:54,079
these Protestants are so ignorant and arrogant, they have no

739
00:47:54,239 --> 00:47:57,559
idea what even these words mean. And they're just like

740
00:47:58,239 --> 00:48:01,320
super ready to debate. This is Protenism is a cancer, man,

741
00:48:01,320 --> 00:48:06,079
It just produces all these idiots. If Charles and the

742
00:48:06,199 --> 00:48:09,840
other dude uh don't won't come to debate in the chat,

743
00:48:10,000 --> 00:48:12,400
boot these people because they just monopolize the whole chat,

744
00:48:12,440 --> 00:48:13,519
and all they don't want to do is span their

745
00:48:13,559 --> 00:48:28,679
craft Unism on you man, all right, Okay, if you

746
00:48:28,719 --> 00:48:32,199
don't turn your microphone on, you can't you won't be

747
00:48:32,239 --> 00:48:36,239
able to speak in the spaces Dylan, what's up man?

748
00:48:41,840 --> 00:48:43,920
Shout out to everybody in the chat, welcome, hit like

749
00:48:43,960 --> 00:48:46,360
and share it. We got thirteen hundred viewers right now

750
00:48:46,480 --> 00:48:50,639
if you would call in, if you would like to

751
00:48:51,000 --> 00:48:54,199
discuss Protestanism, and you can also support the stream bias

752
00:48:54,280 --> 00:48:57,360
super chats through stream labs or natively through YouTube. What's

753
00:48:57,440 --> 00:48:57,719
up man?

754
00:49:02,519 --> 00:49:03,000
Speaker 14: Hey Jay?

755
00:49:04,239 --> 00:49:05,480
Speaker 9: Do you hear me? Yes?

756
00:49:06,400 --> 00:49:10,239
Speaker 22: Okay, Hey, So I have a question I raised in

757
00:49:10,360 --> 00:49:13,840
the Protestant denomination. I would say I'm more like an

758
00:49:13,920 --> 00:49:17,679
Orthodox in choir now and trying to try to wrap

759
00:49:17,719 --> 00:49:18,440
my head around some.

760
00:49:18,519 --> 00:49:20,559
Speaker 4: Stuff to help my wife understand.

761
00:49:21,920 --> 00:49:26,840
Speaker 22: So in Protestantism and even in Catholicism, uh, there's a

762
00:49:26,960 --> 00:49:31,440
sense of like I think the word is ecumenism or acumenism,

763
00:49:31,679 --> 00:49:34,440
you know, kind of like a universal salvation.

764
00:49:35,280 --> 00:49:40,880
Speaker 14: As I believe in the Trinity, you believe in the Court.

765
00:49:41,159 --> 00:49:41,800
Speaker 4: Do trends.

766
00:49:41,840 --> 00:49:42,559
Speaker 9: That's all you need.

767
00:49:42,960 --> 00:49:45,480
Speaker 22: And I think even the Catholic Church has you can

768
00:49:45,519 --> 00:49:50,480
be an invisible part of communion with the Church. I

769
00:49:50,639 --> 00:49:53,800
haven't been able to find an answer to what is

770
00:49:53,880 --> 00:49:57,480
the Orthodox position? I know there they say, you know,

771
00:49:57,800 --> 00:50:00,400
with the One True Church, it's like Noah's this is

772
00:50:00,440 --> 00:50:04,519
where salvation can be found. What is the I guess

773
00:50:05,239 --> 00:50:08,639
you know, authoritative stance for right.

774
00:50:08,719 --> 00:50:13,039
Speaker 9: So essentially there's no invisible church doctrine. The Church is

775
00:50:13,119 --> 00:50:18,480
just as much a visible, real historical reality as Christ's

776
00:50:18,519 --> 00:50:25,519
physical body was one united in history. So invisible church

777
00:50:25,599 --> 00:50:28,079
doctrine which is the basis for a humanism which is

778
00:50:28,199 --> 00:50:32,320
kind of at the root of Anglican branch theory, that's

779
00:50:32,360 --> 00:50:35,079
the origins of modern ecumenism. And you're right that it's

780
00:50:35,400 --> 00:50:38,760
ultimately kind of a denial of the incarnation, and it's

781
00:50:38,800 --> 00:50:44,159
a denial it's basically a Nestorian version of ecclesiology. So

782
00:50:44,239 --> 00:50:46,960
the same heresy of Nestorias to divide the person of

783
00:50:47,079 --> 00:50:52,719
Christ from the person to the logos, is applying that

784
00:50:52,880 --> 00:50:57,199
same division to the body, the body of the Church,

785
00:50:58,119 --> 00:51:05,400
and then to kind of make Christianity dissolve into countless sects. Right, No,

786
00:51:05,639 --> 00:51:08,719
there's one church in history. Every one of the ecumenical

787
00:51:08,800 --> 00:51:12,039
councils speaks as if the Church is a single, visible

788
00:51:12,119 --> 00:51:17,400
historical institution. And every time that this comes up, you'll

789
00:51:17,440 --> 00:51:21,119
see appeals to what the Creed calls the four marks

790
00:51:21,119 --> 00:51:23,440
of the Church. I believe in one Holy Catholic and

791
00:51:23,480 --> 00:51:27,159
Apostolic Church. Now Protestants, many of them will confess the

792
00:51:27,239 --> 00:51:29,679
Nicene Creed, and they'll say that they believe in one

793
00:51:29,719 --> 00:51:32,360
Holy Catholic and Epistolic Church. But of course they don't

794
00:51:32,440 --> 00:51:34,880
mean it in the sense of the Cappadocians and the

795
00:51:34,920 --> 00:51:37,800
people at the Second Ecumenical Council who compose that part

796
00:51:37,840 --> 00:51:40,920
of the creed. They mean it in the Protestant sense

797
00:51:41,000 --> 00:51:44,000
of one invisible church, et cetera, et cetera. It is

798
00:51:44,119 --> 00:51:48,880
not what the Cappadocians meant when they wrote that. So, yeah,

799
00:51:48,960 --> 00:51:52,199
the Church is a single body, a single treat, a

800
00:51:52,280 --> 00:51:57,280
single covenant, a single sheep fold, a single house, a

801
00:51:57,440 --> 00:51:59,880
single New Israel. I mean all of the and now

802
00:52:00,000 --> 00:52:03,159
ologies even to the New Testament, make it a single institution,

803
00:52:03,840 --> 00:52:08,320
not something divided amongst countless sects with countless competing confessions.

804
00:52:08,920 --> 00:52:11,480
And even within the Roman Catholic Church, this doesn't exist

805
00:52:11,679 --> 00:52:15,159
because the Roman Catholic Confession allows you to be a uniate,

806
00:52:15,800 --> 00:52:20,920
to believe basically most of Orthodox theology, and to do

807
00:52:21,039 --> 00:52:23,719
what you want, act like you want as if you're Orthodox.

808
00:52:24,800 --> 00:52:27,679
But it's an inconsistent position because many of them don't

809
00:52:27,719 --> 00:52:30,360
believe the Council Trent. They don't believe in purgatory, they

810
00:52:30,400 --> 00:52:33,599
don't believe back in one. And yet in Roman Catholicism

811
00:52:33,719 --> 00:52:35,719
you are bound and are supposed to believe all of

812
00:52:35,760 --> 00:52:38,440
the ecumenical councils that the Pope signs off on. So

813
00:52:38,599 --> 00:52:41,639
you see that that right there, the allowance within the

814
00:52:41,800 --> 00:52:47,039
Roman system from multiple creeds and confessions disproves the Roman

815
00:52:47,159 --> 00:52:50,880
system number one as actually possessing the unity of faith

816
00:52:50,960 --> 00:52:53,559
that they claim to have, and number two, it shows

817
00:52:53,639 --> 00:52:57,840
that they have contradictory systems within it that are just

818
00:52:57,920 --> 00:53:02,719
about political power. The only church confessing the same confessions

819
00:53:02,880 --> 00:53:06,239
of the ecadmenical councils is the Orthodox Church. That's why

820
00:53:06,320 --> 00:53:09,880
we always go to the ecaemical councils and their canons.

821
00:53:10,400 --> 00:53:12,760
There's nothing to do with whether the canons are infallible.

822
00:53:13,159 --> 00:53:15,280
It's a question of whether the canons of the councils

823
00:53:15,400 --> 00:53:18,679
express the mind of the church in that century, which

824
00:53:18,679 --> 00:53:22,239
everyone admits that they do. But that means that the

825
00:53:24,599 --> 00:53:28,199
Roman Catholic view is not true because it does not

826
00:53:28,360 --> 00:53:35,639
confess the principles of those councils. It professes the deviation

827
00:53:35,880 --> 00:53:38,920
that begins in the eighth ninth, tenth, and eleventh centuries,

828
00:53:40,039 --> 00:53:45,360
particularly the Gregorian reforms. Dictatus pape. This evolves into unum sanctum,

829
00:53:45,639 --> 00:53:49,440
where the pope now becomes a geopolitical world ruler that

830
00:53:49,519 --> 00:53:53,159
doesn't exist in the first seven centuries, not even the

831
00:53:53,239 --> 00:53:54,000
papal states.

832
00:53:54,280 --> 00:53:54,519
Speaker 7: Is that.

833
00:53:54,880 --> 00:53:59,519
Speaker 9: That's very new. And every modern historian, whether Orthodox or Catholic,

834
00:53:59,679 --> 00:54:07,840
admit it's this now. Papadacus, Sashensky, Mayandorf Kongar de Vornik,

835
00:54:08,440 --> 00:54:12,239
they all admit this. The Vatican now admits it eighty

836
00:54:12,840 --> 00:54:17,920
Alexandria documents. So the mindset of the Roman Catholic is

837
00:54:18,000 --> 00:54:20,760
living as if none of that has has been admitted.

838
00:54:21,239 --> 00:54:23,199
Oh no, I don't care about any of that. I'm

839
00:54:23,239 --> 00:54:26,679
going to pretend like the donation of Constantine wasn't a

840
00:54:26,719 --> 00:54:30,840
forgery and the pope is a geopolitical world ruler. Still okay,

841
00:54:30,920 --> 00:54:34,320
But Dictatus pape And when I'm sunk to say that

842
00:54:34,480 --> 00:54:37,880
to be saved, you also have to confess that the

843
00:54:37,960 --> 00:54:43,119
pope is a legitimate temporal state power. To be saved,

844
00:54:43,320 --> 00:54:46,280
it's not just believe in the Roman Catholic miship the

845
00:54:46,360 --> 00:54:50,599
Romans is going to be saved. It's also belief in

846
00:54:50,679 --> 00:54:55,360
the temporal supremacy the Roman vision to be saved. Jonathan,

847
00:54:56,199 --> 00:55:04,960
it was Colon here turn a fan off, got on

848
00:55:05,079 --> 00:55:09,880
mute Jonathan? Hey, yes, sir, Hey Jay?

849
00:55:11,480 --> 00:55:11,719
Speaker 2: Sorry?

850
00:55:11,840 --> 00:55:15,719
Speaker 5: So the oh first off, really big fan, really awesome

851
00:55:15,800 --> 00:55:17,920
to have someone on the Orthodox I had to get

852
00:55:18,039 --> 00:55:24,480
perspective on. I wanted to focus on sol scriptura and

853
00:55:24,639 --> 00:55:29,400
the concept behind that, and I wanted to first get

854
00:55:29,440 --> 00:55:31,079
the premise in this precondition.

855
00:55:31,199 --> 00:55:31,639
Speaker 4: So my.

856
00:55:33,360 --> 00:55:36,880
Speaker 5: My framework is more in line with how have you

857
00:55:36,960 --> 00:55:38,000
familiar with Michael Kruger?

858
00:55:39,119 --> 00:55:41,000
Speaker 4: No, okay, uncle crue.

859
00:55:41,039 --> 00:55:43,079
Speaker 5: I got out a book called canon of the Deed

860
00:55:43,199 --> 00:55:45,400
of the of the Bible based on.

861
00:55:47,760 --> 00:55:49,239
Speaker 14: I forgot the guy's name before.

862
00:55:49,079 --> 00:55:51,960
Speaker 5: But essentially he's he's making a model where he's talking

863
00:55:52,000 --> 00:55:57,119
about a framework to view canonicity of scripture under a

864
00:55:57,199 --> 00:56:02,039
self authenticating model, where can't where script itself like authenticates itself.

865
00:56:01,960 --> 00:56:04,719
Speaker 4: For it's infallibility.

866
00:56:06,000 --> 00:56:08,800
Speaker 5: I know the Orthodox position also has scripture and tradition I.

867
00:56:08,880 --> 00:56:10,880
Speaker 4: Believe, so.

868
00:56:12,400 --> 00:56:15,159
Speaker 5: I wanted to see if that if health thinking model

869
00:56:15,159 --> 00:56:19,199
would be inherently contradictory logically.

870
00:56:20,920 --> 00:56:23,800
Speaker 9: I think it would be, because, for example, if the

871
00:56:24,480 --> 00:56:31,320
notion of apostolic authorship is part of what we need

872
00:56:31,519 --> 00:56:35,320
to know, for example, that Matthew wrote Matthew's Gospel. There's

873
00:56:35,400 --> 00:56:39,199
nothing self authenticating within the other text that tells you that,

874
00:56:39,559 --> 00:56:41,280
and that it should be included.

875
00:56:43,800 --> 00:56:48,320
Speaker 5: Nothink, So okay, okay, And then how does how does

876
00:56:48,400 --> 00:56:52,599
the model like where you have the church authenticating the

877
00:56:52,679 --> 00:56:57,039
model for canonicity subvert that, because then wouldn't that be

878
00:56:57,239 --> 00:56:59,880
like a version of it, like a regression where people

879
00:56:59,920 --> 00:57:02,239
can just argue, or there could be development of canon.

880
00:57:02,840 --> 00:57:05,840
Speaker 9: There was development of canon. That's why, for example, you

881
00:57:06,000 --> 00:57:11,159
see competing canons for centuries until an ecumenical council in.

882
00:57:11,199 --> 00:57:13,159
Speaker 4: The Orthodox or Council of trend or even before that.

883
00:57:13,880 --> 00:57:17,119
Speaker 9: No, before that, I'm talking about the Council of Trello's

884
00:57:17,199 --> 00:57:20,400
canons being affirmed at the Seventh Council. That's the Orthodox

885
00:57:20,960 --> 00:57:25,280
perspective on when an ecumenical council makes a decision about

886
00:57:25,719 --> 00:57:29,199
the normative canon for the for the church. That's universal.

887
00:57:29,679 --> 00:57:31,840
So prior to that, you have a bunch of different

888
00:57:31,920 --> 00:57:34,599
types of canons and competing lists. I'm scrolling down to

889
00:57:34,760 --> 00:57:38,000
my posts on this the other day. And so for example,

890
00:57:38,039 --> 00:57:42,440
you have it's not until the time of Athenacious that

891
00:57:42,559 --> 00:57:46,400
you get the agreed upon New Testament canon that we

892
00:57:46,519 --> 00:57:51,199
all as Protestants, Orthodox and Catholic agree on. But Athenasius,

893
00:57:51,280 --> 00:57:53,840
if you read Lee McDonald's book, Who's a textual scholar,

894
00:57:54,159 --> 00:57:56,639
a Baptist guy, he admits that Athenasius had to go

895
00:57:56,760 --> 00:57:59,599
to Rome to convince Rome to include some of the

896
00:57:59,679 --> 00:58:03,079
Catholic epistles and Revelation because Rome didn't even think that

897
00:58:03,320 --> 00:58:06,719
revelation was authentic. So you notice, right there there's an

898
00:58:06,800 --> 00:58:12,480
example of process and debate and Patristic tradition and argumentation

899
00:58:13,159 --> 00:58:17,360
that is nothing to do with this idea of self authentication.

900
00:58:17,519 --> 00:58:20,599
I mean, in other words, the idea that the canon

901
00:58:20,679 --> 00:58:24,800
authenticates itself is negated by the actual formation of the canon,

902
00:58:24,920 --> 00:58:27,920
the way that it actually happened, as admitted by the

903
00:58:28,000 --> 00:58:31,719
Protestant scholars like F. F. Bruce or like Lee McDonnell.

904
00:58:32,280 --> 00:58:36,000
So you have, for example, competing New Testament Old Testament

905
00:58:36,039 --> 00:58:40,079
canons until Affinaceous posits in his Festal Letter what we

906
00:58:40,239 --> 00:58:42,639
mostly think of as a New Testament canon, but the

907
00:58:42,920 --> 00:58:47,599
prevalent Old Testament canon according to the Apostolic canons, Canon

908
00:58:47,639 --> 00:58:49,079
eighty five. Are you familiar with that?

909
00:58:50,039 --> 00:58:50,239
Speaker 17: Yeah?

910
00:58:50,679 --> 00:58:54,280
Speaker 9: So Canon eighty five lists most of the deuterocanonical texts,

911
00:58:54,719 --> 00:58:58,719
but it also doesn't have revelation and it includes Clement right.

912
00:59:01,920 --> 00:59:05,920
Speaker 5: Listed separately for the No, it does not or has

913
00:59:06,000 --> 00:59:08,679
some other classifier for it where it says it's useful

914
00:59:08,719 --> 00:59:11,519
but not not not inspired.

915
00:59:12,519 --> 00:59:16,960
Speaker 9: Remember, you might be thinking of Laodicea, but Canon eighty

916
00:59:17,000 --> 00:59:19,239
five does not specify that. Let me pull it up.

917
00:59:19,280 --> 00:59:24,159
We can make sure. Okay, let me let me. Let's

918
00:59:24,199 --> 00:59:25,880
make sure. Let me pull it up for the sake

919
00:59:25,920 --> 00:59:29,920
of the audience. Now, it is true that so I

920
00:59:29,960 --> 00:59:35,159
can't see it, just adds up. That's fine. It is

921
00:59:35,239 --> 00:59:40,159
true that there are some church father that state that

922
00:59:41,119 --> 00:59:44,119
the Deutero canon is useful for catech humans, right, So

923
00:59:44,199 --> 00:59:48,119
Athanasius says that, but that doesn't that also doesn't mean

924
00:59:48,159 --> 00:59:52,000
that it's not inspired or that it's not useful for theology, right,

925
00:59:52,119 --> 00:59:54,400
because why would you catechize people with it if it

926
00:59:54,480 --> 00:59:57,000
wasn't use useful for theology. So the fact that it's

927
00:59:57,119 --> 01:00:02,679
even called duetero canonical or secondary canons, there's no problem

928
01:00:02,760 --> 01:00:05,599
for us in the Orthodox Church saying that here's the

929
01:00:05,639 --> 01:00:08,719
Canon eighty five that was normative in the Eastern Church.

930
01:00:08,960 --> 01:00:11,679
In this collection of Church law. This is from about

931
01:00:11,719 --> 01:00:13,760
three hundred to four hundred a d. And it lists

932
01:00:15,119 --> 01:00:18,920
it says five books of Moses, and then it says

933
01:00:19,039 --> 01:00:24,559
Judges Joshua, Judges Ruth historical books. And then it says

934
01:00:25,320 --> 01:00:32,559
Judith Maccabees. It says too, but so it includes judithan Maccabees,

935
01:00:32,920 --> 01:00:35,760
and then it does not include Judith Maccabees amongst the

936
01:00:35,840 --> 01:00:38,920
ones that it says are recommended for young people young people,

937
01:00:39,000 --> 01:00:45,199
it says wisdom of syric So you notice that it's

938
01:00:45,320 --> 01:00:50,280
not the Dutero canon that's secondary and for Catechisis it

939
01:00:50,480 --> 01:00:54,840
just says wisdom is of syric is for catechisas, but

940
01:00:55,000 --> 01:00:59,119
it includes Maccabees and the other duterocononical texts as part

941
01:00:59,159 --> 01:00:59,639
of canon.

942
01:01:00,480 --> 01:01:03,519
Speaker 5: So that means there was when the ecumenical councils went

943
01:01:03,599 --> 01:01:05,920
through any type of a theological position, they would use

944
01:01:06,119 --> 01:01:08,679
tudor canonical books for a.

945
01:01:08,719 --> 01:01:10,320
Speaker 4: Defense or to make an argument.

946
01:01:15,159 --> 01:01:18,400
Speaker 9: I know that many church fathers cite Dutero canonical texts

947
01:01:18,719 --> 01:01:20,280
for theological argumentation.

948
01:01:20,400 --> 01:01:22,079
Speaker 4: Do you know if any of the College of Patriots

949
01:01:22,119 --> 01:01:24,000
would use it. I'm just I'm trying to go for

950
01:01:24,119 --> 01:01:25,119
more reference.

951
01:01:27,000 --> 01:01:28,599
Speaker 9: Off the top of my head. I'm not sure of

952
01:01:28,800 --> 01:01:34,480
a ecumenical council citing Dutero canonical text, but ultimately it's

953
01:01:34,519 --> 01:01:36,719
not going to matter because what I'm arguing is that

954
01:01:37,719 --> 01:01:42,559
the councils of Carthage that include the duterocanonical text, which

955
01:01:42,639 --> 01:01:48,960
is identical to the local Romance Roman synod Counts canon,

956
01:01:49,039 --> 01:01:52,000
which is what Damasist is called the canon of Damasist,

957
01:01:52,039 --> 01:01:56,000
which is why Augustine posites his canon. That's the Carthaginian

958
01:01:56,119 --> 01:02:00,320
Western Latin canon that includes the Dutero canon without any distinction.

959
01:02:01,280 --> 01:02:04,639
And what I'm saying is that the Trollo Quinessex Council

960
01:02:04,719 --> 01:02:08,159
happens later on in the East, which affirms the Carthage canon,

961
01:02:08,960 --> 01:02:13,639
and then the Seventh Ecumenical Council for the Orthodox affirms

962
01:02:13,960 --> 01:02:19,400
Trollo and Carthage on this issue. So does that make sense?

963
01:02:19,480 --> 01:02:20,360
That's our perspective.

964
01:02:21,119 --> 01:02:23,199
Speaker 4: Awesome, Okay, I got everything I need. I got to

965
01:02:23,199 --> 01:02:26,199
do more reading on So thank you man you brought me.

966
01:02:26,280 --> 01:02:29,360
Speaker 9: Those are great questions and I'm always happy to kind

967
01:02:29,400 --> 01:02:33,960
of go through that logic process there because a lot

968
01:02:34,000 --> 01:02:38,199
of people are not familiar with these topics. Now, keep

969
01:02:38,239 --> 01:02:42,519
in mind, too, there are other earlier canon lists like

970
01:02:42,840 --> 01:02:49,440
that one one of the earliest ones that James White

971
01:02:53,159 --> 01:02:55,800
brings up in the Trent debate, and he ended up

972
01:02:55,800 --> 01:03:00,159
getting humiliated over this because he got it wrong. And

973
01:03:00,679 --> 01:03:03,559
I think it's the of Vicentian canon. Let's see here,

974
01:03:04,599 --> 01:03:07,480
or I'm a human LDO of artists, let's see. Yeah,

975
01:03:07,519 --> 01:03:11,800
So let's watch this because Sam Schimun calls out James

976
01:03:11,880 --> 01:03:16,239
White after the trent Horn debate on this very topic,

977
01:03:16,480 --> 01:03:20,840
because in the Trent Horn White debate, White says, oh,

978
01:03:21,679 --> 01:03:26,239
there's a canon you know list, that's the Protestant canon

979
01:03:26,320 --> 01:03:31,400
list the Old Testament early on with Meledo. But wait

980
01:03:31,440 --> 01:03:37,519
a minute, Meledo includes what White doesn't believe, so it

981
01:03:37,639 --> 01:03:41,840
was just wrong. He's so excited to Stary Gema take.

982
01:03:43,239 --> 01:03:43,559
Speaker 4: Okay.

983
01:03:44,000 --> 01:03:50,239
Speaker 16: Of Chronicles too, the Songs of David, the Proverbs of Solomon, Wisdom,

984
01:03:50,920 --> 01:03:58,320
also Ecclesiastes Song of Songs.

985
01:03:58,719 --> 01:04:02,360
Speaker 9: So you understand this is James White arguing against Trent

986
01:04:02,440 --> 01:04:07,559
Horn that the Protestant Old Testament cannon is there early on,

987
01:04:08,840 --> 01:04:12,880
and it's I think it's Meldo's canon. Let's make sure

988
01:04:14,960 --> 01:04:23,000
Yeah takes it okay too. Meldo's canon is not the

989
01:04:23,119 --> 01:04:26,400
James White Protestant canon. So he just was wrong, and

990
01:04:27,280 --> 01:04:28,159
James White doesn't care.

991
01:04:28,360 --> 01:04:33,920
Speaker 16: The songs of David, the proverbs of Solomon wisdom also

992
01:04:38,400 --> 01:04:40,960
Ecclesiastes song of Songs.

993
01:04:41,320 --> 01:04:41,599
Speaker 4: Job.

994
01:04:45,800 --> 01:04:50,159
Speaker 16: You remember he said this is the accurate canon. He

995
01:04:50,360 --> 01:04:58,000
got the accurate canon. He learned the accurate cannon, which

996
01:04:58,159 --> 01:05:03,719
means the Jews accepted the wisdom of Solomon as inspired scripture.

997
01:05:06,000 --> 01:05:08,599
See how you just buried himself. Some wan should make

998
01:05:08,639 --> 01:05:12,800
a clip out of this. He kept saying, accurate, this

999
01:05:12,960 --> 01:05:13,519
is accurate.

1000
01:05:13,760 --> 01:05:14,760
Speaker 9: This is what they believe.

1001
01:05:15,199 --> 01:05:18,519
Speaker 16: You just buried yourself, dude, because they accepted wisdom of

1002
01:05:18,599 --> 01:05:24,360
Solomon as part of their Old Testament as accurate canon,

1003
01:05:25,239 --> 01:05:34,079
and they accepted a scripture. Please gets a little better.

1004
01:05:35,239 --> 01:05:38,239
See that dis honesty of this man. Now watch here,

1005
01:05:38,880 --> 01:05:44,079
guess what is not included? Guess what is not included?

1006
01:05:45,719 --> 01:05:51,320
Pay attention of prophets Isaiah Jeremiah of the twelve Prophets,

1007
01:05:51,400 --> 01:05:57,320
one book Daniel Ezekiel Estras. Now some will say Estras

1008
01:05:57,400 --> 01:06:04,840
means Ezra Nehemiah, Thehemaiah. They're combined as one from which

1009
01:06:04,960 --> 01:06:07,480
also I've made dix tracks dividing them into six books.

1010
01:06:07,880 --> 01:06:11,440
Such are the words of Malito. Guess what he didn't find, folks,

1011
01:06:12,400 --> 01:06:17,239
he didn't find Esther. Esther was not in their canon.

1012
01:06:17,440 --> 01:06:20,400
Speaker 14: So I say this, here's what I say.

1013
01:06:21,480 --> 01:06:24,079
Speaker 4: Watch your watch your.

1014
01:06:25,880 --> 01:06:30,000
Speaker 16: Note that Malito includes the Big of Wisdom as part

1015
01:06:30,039 --> 01:06:33,320
of the Old testing canon and does not include Esther.

1016
01:06:34,519 --> 01:06:38,159
This means that the accurate canonical list of books omit

1017
01:06:38,400 --> 01:06:44,039
a book accepted by Jamila and include alrighty rejected by Jimmy.

1018
01:06:45,000 --> 01:06:50,519
Speaker 9: So there you go. James White owned himself in the

1019
01:06:50,599 --> 01:06:54,039
trent Horn debate by claiming that Melido of Artists had

1020
01:06:54,039 --> 01:06:56,239
the correct canon. He didn't even go and check to

1021
01:06:56,320 --> 01:06:59,519
see that it wasn't the Protestant canon for the Old Testament.

1022
01:07:00,639 --> 01:07:05,360
So hopefully again that's more AMO. But I also hope

1023
01:07:05,400 --> 01:07:09,880
it demonstrates the point that we were making earlier that

1024
01:07:10,920 --> 01:07:14,039
the canon isn't self authenticating because it doesn't even make sense.

1025
01:07:14,079 --> 01:07:20,239
And that's completely divorced from even the Protestant scholars who've

1026
01:07:20,280 --> 01:07:24,079
written books on the process of the canon. When you

1027
01:07:24,199 --> 01:07:27,679
read this process and how much debate there was to

1028
01:07:27,800 --> 01:07:30,000
then say, oh, but actually none of that was the case.

1029
01:07:30,039 --> 01:07:32,159
It was all just self authenticating, right, It's just kind

1030
01:07:32,159 --> 01:07:46,880
of like absurd christ supremacist. I hope these Protestants in

1031
01:07:46,960 --> 01:07:49,599
the YouTube chat are going to call in with all

1032
01:07:49,639 --> 01:07:52,320
this yappen? Are you there?

1033
01:07:52,400 --> 01:07:52,519
Speaker 10: Man?

1034
01:07:52,519 --> 01:07:57,360
Speaker 9: You gotta mute or what? Guys? If you want to

1035
01:07:57,400 --> 01:08:00,159
come on, you got to have your microphone capabilities turned on.

1036
01:08:00,360 --> 01:08:03,320
I don't like there's no one done a space before

1037
01:08:03,360 --> 01:08:06,199
on us on or something unism. You want to try again.

1038
01:08:08,320 --> 01:08:14,280
Remember we're not doing cticcumen questions today. This is for Protestants, Catholics, Muslims.

1039
01:08:14,280 --> 01:08:14,880
I disagree.

1040
01:08:16,720 --> 01:08:18,199
Speaker 4: Hey Jay, how's it going good?

1041
01:08:18,239 --> 01:08:18,960
Speaker 9: What's on your mind?

1042
01:08:20,640 --> 01:08:22,239
Speaker 23: Thanks for having me on the show. First of all,

1043
01:08:22,319 --> 01:08:24,560
I might be one of those ignorant Protestants you were

1044
01:08:24,640 --> 01:08:27,880
talking about a minute ago, so I do apologize. I

1045
01:08:27,920 --> 01:08:29,520
gotta say though I'm a big fan of the show.

1046
01:08:29,560 --> 01:08:30,840
Speaker 2: I really appreciate what you do.

1047
01:08:31,119 --> 01:08:33,720
Speaker 23: So I don't know that I'm qualified to speak with you,

1048
01:08:34,359 --> 01:08:36,000
but I just want to come on the show and

1049
01:08:36,399 --> 01:08:38,840
kind of talk about something like that you're talking to

1050
01:08:38,920 --> 01:08:45,199
the last speaker about, Okay, specifically that I understand that

1051
01:08:45,439 --> 01:08:50,199
the canon may not be self authenticating as such, or

1052
01:08:50,319 --> 01:08:52,840
like you were just saying, like it's important the work

1053
01:08:52,920 --> 01:08:55,960
that the early Church fathers and counsels had to go

1054
01:08:56,199 --> 01:09:00,680
through to establish the canon was necessary. We can all

1055
01:09:00,760 --> 01:09:03,840
agree on that. But it's maybe, and I hope I

1056
01:09:03,880 --> 01:09:07,600
can express this or articulate this correctly. It's not as

1057
01:09:07,680 --> 01:09:14,000
though because they decided that that's the canon, that that

1058
01:09:14,319 --> 01:09:18,479
power is in them, they more or less did the

1059
01:09:18,640 --> 01:09:22,199
leg work that allows us to look back and say, yes,

1060
01:09:22,319 --> 01:09:25,680
they did make the correct decisions in establishing the canon.

1061
01:09:25,840 --> 01:09:25,960
Speaker 2: Right.

1062
01:09:26,000 --> 01:09:30,239
Speaker 9: But the thing is that for Protestantism, classical Protestantism, no

1063
01:09:30,560 --> 01:09:36,680
post Apostolic writing or teaching is binding necessary and can

1064
01:09:36,800 --> 01:09:39,199
bind your conscience. And so if you're a Protestant and

1065
01:09:39,239 --> 01:09:42,439
you believe Classical Reformation doctrine a freedom of conscience and

1066
01:09:42,520 --> 01:09:46,199
right to private interpretation, there's nothing stopping you from creating

1067
01:09:46,279 --> 01:09:49,239
your own private canon that you prayed about and that

1068
01:09:49,319 --> 01:09:50,239
the Holy Spirit led.

1069
01:09:50,119 --> 01:09:50,439
Speaker 4: You to have.

1070
01:09:51,039 --> 01:09:54,319
Speaker 9: So you see how That's why it's I agree with

1071
01:09:54,439 --> 01:09:57,960
you that when the church fathers are quote, recognizing what's canonical,

1072
01:09:58,119 --> 01:10:02,520
they're not making it inspired. They're recognizing what is inspired.

1073
01:10:02,880 --> 01:10:06,520
But they're also given the authority to bind and to loose,

1074
01:10:07,079 --> 01:10:09,840
and thus can bind you to the decision of what

1075
01:10:10,079 --> 01:10:14,000
is canonical versus what is not. And that's a normative claim.

1076
01:10:14,039 --> 01:10:17,479
That's normativity in terms of ethics versus the question of

1077
01:10:18,079 --> 01:10:22,079
individual discovery of certitude or inspiration or whatever. That's a

1078
01:10:22,159 --> 01:10:26,039
separate question from like the Supreme Court. Does the Supreme

1079
01:10:26,119 --> 01:10:28,600
Court have the right to or to bind people to

1080
01:10:28,840 --> 01:10:32,560
the interpretation of the Constitution. We're saying Jesus gave to

1081
01:10:32,800 --> 01:10:36,880
his institutional body, the Church, the ability to bind people

1082
01:10:37,000 --> 01:10:38,159
to these decisions.

1083
01:10:39,800 --> 01:10:41,840
Speaker 23: I think that's well said, and I think that's a

1084
01:10:41,880 --> 01:10:46,239
perfect metaphor of a Supreme Court. In some sense, though,

1085
01:10:46,319 --> 01:10:48,239
if we had a Supreme let's let's say we had

1086
01:10:48,279 --> 01:10:51,039
a rogue Supreme Court under Biden. He put in, like,

1087
01:10:51,279 --> 01:10:55,560
you know, six or seven crazy Supreme Court people, we

1088
01:10:55,600 --> 01:10:58,880
would still know that the Constitution itself is what we

1089
01:10:59,039 --> 01:11:03,039
hold to. And the errancy, let's say, of the Supreme

1090
01:11:03,159 --> 01:11:05,800
Court tells us that they're not.

1091
01:11:07,319 --> 01:11:07,479
Speaker 9: Right.

1092
01:11:07,479 --> 01:11:10,399
Speaker 23: You know, in some sense, I'm saying, you know, let's

1093
01:11:10,399 --> 01:11:13,760
speak purely about the Catholic Church, right popes that put

1094
01:11:13,800 --> 01:11:18,960
into different councils or bulls or whatever that you know,

1095
01:11:19,079 --> 01:11:21,279
the lady should not read the scripture, or they shouldn't

1096
01:11:21,319 --> 01:11:24,359
read it without the clergy, or it shouldn't be translated

1097
01:11:24,439 --> 01:11:28,640
into the common parlance or whatever. Partisans look at that

1098
01:11:28,680 --> 01:11:32,119
and say, okay, well, clearly this is against what this

1099
01:11:32,279 --> 01:11:35,640
is against what the scriptures are about. And so in

1100
01:11:35,760 --> 01:11:39,399
some sense that I would say, not entirely undermines the

1101
01:11:39,479 --> 01:11:43,039
idea of apostolic succession, but it at least says, what's

1102
01:11:43,119 --> 01:11:44,319
more important than.

1103
01:11:44,279 --> 01:11:48,079
Speaker 9: The change, Right, I understand where you're going with this.

1104
01:11:48,279 --> 01:11:52,199
It undermines the notion of papal authority, which is a

1105
01:11:52,319 --> 01:11:56,359
different principle of unity and authority than the Protestant except

1106
01:11:56,439 --> 01:12:01,159
that actually, with Protestantism it's the individual this private interpretation.

1107
01:12:01,479 --> 01:12:05,479
With Catholicism, it's the papacy telling you. And the unique

1108
01:12:05,479 --> 01:12:09,479
position of the Orthodox Church is that it's communal and sinodal.

1109
01:12:10,039 --> 01:12:13,239
And we would argue that we are the actual historical church.

1110
01:12:13,319 --> 01:12:15,560
When there's an issue that comes up in Acts fifteen,

1111
01:12:15,720 --> 01:12:18,760
it's a synod. It's not one guy being an autocrat.

1112
01:12:18,880 --> 01:12:21,600
It's a synod. And we'd argue that if you look

1113
01:12:21,600 --> 01:12:24,119
at the promises that Jesus makes to the church, he says,

1114
01:12:24,199 --> 01:12:26,880
I will send you the Spirit the Helper, I will

1115
01:12:27,000 --> 01:12:29,760
never leave you, I will not forsake you. I will

1116
01:12:29,800 --> 01:12:31,640
be with you until the end of the age, the

1117
01:12:31,720 --> 01:12:34,880
spirit will guide you into all truth. That's a promise

1118
01:12:35,000 --> 01:12:38,119
made to the actual college of the apostles, not just

1119
01:12:38,199 --> 01:12:41,640
a Peter, but the whole college. And so their successor

1120
01:12:41,720 --> 01:12:46,000
is not in any individual person, but in their collective body.

1121
01:12:46,079 --> 01:12:49,720
In college cannot fall away. So the Orthodox conception of

1122
01:12:49,840 --> 01:12:52,359
the Church not being able to fall away is a

1123
01:12:52,960 --> 01:12:58,720
collective idea, not individual bishops being exempted from this warning.

1124
01:12:59,279 --> 01:13:01,680
And so no, we would not say that the Bishop

1125
01:13:01,720 --> 01:13:06,760
of Rome has sole title to this promise of not

1126
01:13:07,000 --> 01:13:10,399
falling away. Right, Jesus promises to the whole college, to

1127
01:13:10,520 --> 01:13:14,640
the whole body. But yes, absolutely a bishop, a group

1128
01:13:14,680 --> 01:13:17,479
of bishops can fall away, but never the entire collective

1129
01:13:18,119 --> 01:13:20,159
institution of the bishops themselves.

1130
01:13:20,239 --> 01:13:25,039
Speaker 23: No, well said, Well said, well, what do you say

1131
01:13:25,079 --> 01:13:27,159
about Galatians one to one where? And I know this

1132
01:13:27,319 --> 01:13:31,560
is obviously apostolic times. So when Paul says Paul, I

1133
01:13:31,800 --> 01:13:35,880
Paul an apostle, not from men nor through man, but

1134
01:13:36,039 --> 01:13:39,319
through Jesus Christ and God the Father, in some sense,

1135
01:13:39,520 --> 01:13:41,600
I do look at Paul. You maybe heard this before,

1136
01:13:41,640 --> 01:13:45,039
but like Paul is someone who wasn't walking with Jesus

1137
01:13:45,199 --> 01:13:49,560
during Jesus's ministry. He's almost the prototype of every believer

1138
01:13:49,720 --> 01:13:54,399
that comes after Jesus's time, Right, he wasn't obviously he

1139
01:13:54,479 --> 01:13:56,560
saw Jesus, but he wasn't walking with him.

1140
01:13:56,920 --> 01:13:59,039
Speaker 2: He's like the prototype believer.

1141
01:13:59,439 --> 01:14:01,960
Speaker 9: For well, I mean we can say that, we can

1142
01:14:02,079 --> 01:14:05,399
say that any person in the Bible is in some way,

1143
01:14:06,119 --> 01:14:08,840
perhaps any faithful person in the Bible is in some

1144
01:14:08,960 --> 01:14:12,039
way a prototype of a believer. I mean, even Rahab

1145
01:14:12,119 --> 01:14:15,199
the harlot is a prototype of a gentile believer, according

1146
01:14:15,239 --> 01:14:18,119
to you know, the Church fathers. But that doesn't it

1147
01:14:18,199 --> 01:14:21,439
doesn't follow from that that every office that they possess

1148
01:14:21,720 --> 01:14:24,640
thus then transfers over to every future believer. Right, So

1149
01:14:24,800 --> 01:14:29,199
I'm not a member of the episcopate, so not everything

1150
01:14:29,239 --> 01:14:33,319
that occurs in the church that is for a member

1151
01:14:33,319 --> 01:14:36,000
of the episcopate applies to me. And no, we would

1152
01:14:36,039 --> 01:14:39,079
say that there's twelve apostles, and if you look at

1153
01:14:39,800 --> 01:14:44,159
the church, for example, the Book of Revelation, it's a

1154
01:14:44,359 --> 01:14:48,800
giant city with twelve foundation stones, with twelve apostles names

1155
01:14:48,920 --> 01:14:53,319
on those foundation stones. So you must be specifically a

1156
01:14:53,399 --> 01:14:56,680
member of that twelve to be what Jesus calls the

1157
01:14:56,960 --> 01:14:59,520
princes of the Church calls you he says, you will

1158
01:14:59,600 --> 01:15:02,479
judge the twelve tribes of Israel when you get when

1159
01:15:02,520 --> 01:15:05,800
he is in the upper room talking to them, And

1160
01:15:05,960 --> 01:15:08,560
we would say that that means that they're they're the

1161
01:15:08,680 --> 01:15:12,319
foundation stone. So that's a unique role. And Paul was

1162
01:15:12,399 --> 01:15:15,000
called to that apostleship, but not everybody in the church.

1163
01:15:15,159 --> 01:15:16,319
It has the role of being Paul.

1164
01:15:17,479 --> 01:15:21,000
Speaker 2: No, No, clearly, not clearly not. What about this? Maybe

1165
01:15:21,039 --> 01:15:24,640
I can pose this not so much as maybe I

1166
01:15:24,680 --> 01:15:26,079
can kind of post this as a question.

1167
01:15:27,039 --> 01:15:31,239
Speaker 23: In Mark seven to eight crists you leave the commandment

1168
01:15:31,359 --> 01:15:34,760
of God and hold to the tradition of men. Now,

1169
01:15:34,800 --> 01:15:37,960
I don't throw that out to say that that's what

1170
01:15:38,039 --> 01:15:39,840
we're talking about, but I more so to say in

1171
01:15:40,680 --> 01:15:42,680
is there any sense in which you look at the

1172
01:15:43,000 --> 01:15:46,880
Eastern Orthodox Church today and say there are places, not

1173
01:15:47,079 --> 01:15:50,479
in terms of solar scripture or whatever, but just maybe

1174
01:15:50,560 --> 01:15:53,800
more broadly in which they're holding more to the tradition

1175
01:15:53,960 --> 01:15:56,439
of men rather than the commandment of God.

1176
01:15:56,920 --> 01:15:57,920
Speaker 4: Is there any Oh?

1177
01:15:58,039 --> 01:16:01,039
Speaker 9: Yeah, no, So I think Phariseeism and legalism could be

1178
01:16:01,640 --> 01:16:07,439
present anywhere. You know, Jesus in fact warns the disciples themselves, right,

1179
01:16:07,680 --> 01:16:12,039
the very foundation stones of the church are warned about

1180
01:16:12,039 --> 01:16:15,680
the possibility of the leaven of the Pharisees, which is

1181
01:16:15,840 --> 01:16:20,199
self righteousness, and uh, you know, majoring on the miners,

1182
01:16:20,279 --> 01:16:23,520
obsessing over minutia versus the bigger issues, the weightier matters

1183
01:16:23,560 --> 01:16:26,359
of the law. That could happen to anybody anywhere. You

1184
01:16:26,439 --> 01:16:28,920
could be in a monastics situation and you could have

1185
01:16:30,239 --> 01:16:33,399
you know, pharisaic legalism in the monastic realm. You could

1186
01:16:33,399 --> 01:16:36,840
have people getting pharasaical about the you know, fasting in

1187
01:16:36,880 --> 01:16:39,439
the church that happens all the time. People get pharisaical

1188
01:16:39,479 --> 01:16:43,199
about you know, calendar dates and issues in the Orthodox Church.

1189
01:16:43,279 --> 01:16:46,560
That happens all the time. So absolutely, yeah, But even

1190
01:16:47,479 --> 01:16:51,319
that happening in you know, various localized places or settings,

1191
01:16:52,000 --> 01:17:02,239
even that that doesn't destroy the collective promise to the church. Nick, Nick, mh,

1192
01:17:02,359 --> 01:17:12,880
what's up? Yeah, I'm you. I would add two that

1193
01:17:13,119 --> 01:17:16,039
that same section you're talking about Mark, but in Matthew,

1194
01:17:16,079 --> 01:17:19,359
it's Matthew twenty three when he's rebuking the Pharisees. Even

1195
01:17:19,399 --> 01:17:22,600
there he appeals to tradition. Go ahead, and now what's up.

1196
01:17:26,039 --> 01:17:26,359
Speaker 4: You there?

1197
01:17:30,800 --> 01:17:32,359
Speaker 9: Nick? Yeah, what's up?

1198
01:17:36,279 --> 01:17:36,600
Speaker 7: My bad?

1199
01:17:36,600 --> 01:17:38,159
Speaker 9: I was having some trouble.

1200
01:17:39,279 --> 01:17:40,319
Speaker 2: Sorry, if the background is.

1201
01:17:40,399 --> 01:17:42,079
Speaker 4: Too loud to just kick me or whatnot.

1202
01:17:43,079 --> 01:17:47,560
Speaker 24: So I'm I'm a Protestant right now, but I'm looking

1203
01:17:47,760 --> 01:17:51,079
into the Orthodox rash and I kind of got some questions.

1204
01:17:51,880 --> 01:17:54,920
I ran across some crazy interpretations in the past, and

1205
01:17:55,159 --> 01:17:55,880
this would.

1206
01:17:57,399 --> 01:17:59,720
Speaker 4: There's a guy named Johnny Chang. I don't know if

1207
01:17:59,720 --> 01:18:00,439
you ever heard of him.

1208
01:18:03,000 --> 01:18:05,239
Speaker 24: He's just he has a whole bunch of followers and

1209
01:18:05,479 --> 01:18:07,000
has a really good testimony.

1210
01:18:07,079 --> 01:18:07,760
Speaker 19: But he.

1211
01:18:09,840 --> 01:18:11,920
Speaker 9: Made a question about the Lord's prayer.

1212
01:18:12,119 --> 01:18:13,600
Speaker 4: I kind of wanted to see what you would say

1213
01:18:13,640 --> 01:18:13,960
about it.

1214
01:18:14,479 --> 01:18:16,479
Speaker 24: He said that we don't have to pray the Lord's

1215
01:18:16,520 --> 01:18:21,560
prayer because it was a past tense prayer, Like how

1216
01:18:21,640 --> 01:18:22,199
it says.

1217
01:18:22,039 --> 01:18:24,760
Speaker 9: Like that Kingdom come, that will be done, that like

1218
01:18:25,119 --> 01:18:26,039
the will of the.

1219
01:18:26,079 --> 01:18:28,600
Speaker 4: Father already came in the kingdom. So I kind of

1220
01:18:28,640 --> 01:18:30,079
want to see what your input is on that.

1221
01:18:31,079 --> 01:18:33,840
Speaker 9: Uh No, I mean, Jesus says pray in this wise,

1222
01:18:34,159 --> 01:18:36,439
So if it was a past tense thing, he wouldn't

1223
01:18:36,439 --> 01:18:40,399
have said told him to pray in this way. Every

1224
01:18:40,520 --> 01:18:45,319
church in history has prayed the Our Father and the

1225
01:18:45,439 --> 01:18:48,199
Kingdom of God is not just a present reality, it's

1226
01:18:48,279 --> 01:18:51,960
also an eschatological reality. This is called already not yet

1227
01:18:52,039 --> 01:18:55,920
in the theological language. So Jesus brought the eschatological reality

1228
01:18:55,960 --> 01:18:58,000
of the kingdom now, which is in the Divine Liturgy.

1229
01:18:58,439 --> 01:19:03,279
That's a foretaste of it. But the final full sense

1230
01:19:03,359 --> 01:19:06,680
of the eschological reality is at the Second Coming. So

1231
01:19:06,760 --> 01:19:12,159
it's a both and Jonathan Bursea, but good questions and

1232
01:19:12,239 --> 01:19:14,319
tell Johnny Chang or whatever his name is, tell them

1233
01:19:14,359 --> 01:19:15,600
to come in here, give them the link and tell

1234
01:19:15,640 --> 01:19:18,880
them to come come chat. I just boot these people

1235
01:19:18,920 --> 01:19:22,359
who are like spamming. If they don't, if they won't

1236
01:19:22,399 --> 01:19:23,920
come to bay, just get them out of here. They're

1237
01:19:23,960 --> 01:19:27,600
just wasting everybody's time. Nobody's going to convert from your

1238
01:19:27,720 --> 01:19:32,039
Protestants spamming the chat. And I've been hearing your arguments

1239
01:19:32,119 --> 01:19:32,800
for twenty years.

1240
01:19:33,039 --> 01:19:34,000
Speaker 14: I know, I know.

1241
01:19:34,960 --> 01:19:35,800
Speaker 9: Go ahead, man, what's up?

1242
01:19:37,279 --> 01:19:40,399
Speaker 25: Hey, I'm a first time calling in and I got

1243
01:19:40,439 --> 01:19:41,279
a weird question for you.

1244
01:19:41,640 --> 01:19:41,880
Speaker 9: Okay.

1245
01:19:42,000 --> 01:19:46,399
Speaker 25: I used to be Protestant. Nine years ago I left

1246
01:19:46,439 --> 01:19:48,319
the church because of what I'm going to describe you.

1247
01:19:50,119 --> 01:19:51,600
I went to one of the leaders of my church,

1248
01:19:51,680 --> 01:19:55,800
pastor and a deacon, because I had questions about why

1249
01:19:56,039 --> 01:20:00,720
there were women pastors in the church, and they basically

1250
01:20:00,840 --> 01:20:03,119
said I was too legalistic and I needed to go

1251
01:20:03,279 --> 01:20:08,680
reread acts about Peter's dream, and they kind of ignored

1252
01:20:08,760 --> 01:20:09,279
me after that.

1253
01:20:10,399 --> 01:20:15,039
Speaker 9: What would Peter? So the analogy is that Peter's dream

1254
01:20:15,279 --> 01:20:18,399
was a change of dietary law. So now we have

1255
01:20:19,239 --> 01:20:21,920
the dream of women pastors. So that's I mean, that's

1256
01:20:22,279 --> 01:20:23,159
is that what they arguing?

1257
01:20:24,640 --> 01:20:26,640
Speaker 25: Yeah, that's kind of the sense that I got. Like,

1258
01:20:27,079 --> 01:20:30,680
my my viewpoint was like, he's the dreams or vision

1259
01:20:30,800 --> 01:20:33,560
is only about like food. It's not about like women

1260
01:20:33,640 --> 01:20:37,600
pastors or homosexuality of the church or anything. So what

1261
01:20:38,520 --> 01:20:41,199
what would you say if somebody like clapped back at

1262
01:20:41,199 --> 01:20:41,520
you with that.

1263
01:20:42,600 --> 01:20:45,560
Speaker 9: Well, like we'd explained in the Mormon's dream the other night,

1264
01:20:46,800 --> 01:20:50,279
there's a finality to divine revelation first and foremost, So

1265
01:20:50,479 --> 01:20:53,920
when the last apostle died, there are no no new

1266
01:20:54,039 --> 01:21:00,840
divine revelations in the sense of public theological binding ideas

1267
01:21:01,800 --> 01:21:05,439
any for us, any say, Ecumenical Council of the Orthodox Church.

1268
01:21:06,000 --> 01:21:09,119
It's not a new divine revelation. It's really just specifying

1269
01:21:09,199 --> 01:21:12,840
and explicating what the Church has already taught in its

1270
01:21:12,880 --> 01:21:17,319
apostolic deposits. So, for example, Zecharai thirteen Daniel nine twenty

1271
01:21:17,399 --> 01:21:23,399
four Jude three Glatians one. You look at those passages

1272
01:21:23,520 --> 01:21:26,960
and you see that there is a finality to what

1273
01:21:27,079 --> 01:21:31,479
we call revelation, and that right there cuts off any

1274
01:21:31,880 --> 01:21:36,560
cult claiming new revelations. Now you're talking about liberal Protestant

1275
01:21:36,640 --> 01:21:39,520
churches who say that there could be a new truth

1276
01:21:39,640 --> 01:21:43,920
about you know, skittle stuff or women preachers or whatever. No,

1277
01:21:44,159 --> 01:21:47,000
first of all, that's outlandish to begin with, because we

1278
01:21:47,079 --> 01:21:49,560
can cut off all the cults with whether it's the

1279
01:21:49,640 --> 01:21:52,479
Mormons or whether it's the Muslims with their new prophets.

1280
01:21:52,760 --> 01:21:57,319
There are no new profits. Profits are done prophets. Jesus

1281
01:21:57,319 --> 01:22:00,000
says in Luke sixteen sixteen that John was the life

1282
01:22:00,039 --> 01:22:03,279
asked of the prophets, so there's no such thing as

1283
01:22:03,359 --> 01:22:06,880
an Old Testament prophet. And when John the Apostle died,

1284
01:22:07,279 --> 01:22:10,520
there's no more new Apostolic teachings or revelations. That's why

1285
01:22:10,680 --> 01:22:17,119
cults like Mormons or Muslims require new divine revelation that

1286
01:22:17,680 --> 01:22:20,760
compliments or quote corrects the old revelations.

1287
01:22:22,840 --> 01:22:25,560
Speaker 25: Awesome, I guess I have one more follow up question

1288
01:22:25,640 --> 01:22:27,279
because of that, and and sorry.

1289
01:22:27,039 --> 01:22:27,960
Speaker 4: If it's really stupid.

1290
01:22:28,039 --> 01:22:29,720
Speaker 14: I'm a.

1291
01:22:31,319 --> 01:22:31,920
Speaker 9: Good questions.

1292
01:22:32,399 --> 01:22:35,600
Speaker 11: So in that guard, then, isn't.

1293
01:22:35,479 --> 01:22:37,560
Speaker 25: One of the fruits of the spirit prophecy?

1294
01:22:37,920 --> 01:22:41,000
Speaker 9: Or maybe I just have been right, but that's right.

1295
01:22:41,079 --> 01:22:44,279
So that's during the period this is called the Intertestamental

1296
01:22:44,279 --> 01:22:47,000
period between the Old Testament New Testament, right when the

1297
01:22:47,079 --> 01:22:50,560
Church is being established at Pentecost. In the Book of

1298
01:22:50,640 --> 01:22:53,960
Acts Paul's writing to the Corinthians. Yes, at that time

1299
01:22:54,239 --> 01:22:56,720
it was necessary that there be a lot of these

1300
01:22:56,920 --> 01:22:59,840
manifestations like that, and so you could have the Holy

1301
01:23:00,039 --> 01:23:03,079
Spirit speaking through Agabus the prophet in the Book of Acts,

1302
01:23:03,119 --> 01:23:07,520
for example, or whatever. But that is still that period

1303
01:23:07,840 --> 01:23:12,159
prior to the death of the last Apostle John, And

1304
01:23:12,399 --> 01:23:15,199
I don't think it's accidental. It's providential that at the

1305
01:23:15,319 --> 01:23:19,319
end of John's Book of Revelation he says, don't add

1306
01:23:19,399 --> 01:23:22,039
to this, there's no more adding to the divine revelation.

1307
01:23:22,159 --> 01:23:24,680
So that kind of is the ceiling up a vision

1308
01:23:24,760 --> 01:23:27,079
and prophecy that we read in Daniel nine twenty four

1309
01:23:27,079 --> 01:23:29,319
to twenty seven. It says in the Messianic era, when

1310
01:23:29,319 --> 01:23:31,960
the Messiah comms, there will be a ceiling up of

1311
01:23:33,079 --> 01:23:36,720
vision and prophecy in the sense a public divine revelation.

1312
01:23:37,520 --> 01:23:39,960
And what binds everybody. That doesn't mean that there's no

1313
01:23:40,079 --> 01:23:41,960
more miracles. There could be a miracle. God can do

1314
01:23:42,039 --> 01:23:45,920
what he wants. God can give a saint a dream

1315
01:23:46,000 --> 01:23:48,760
or a vision of a clairvoyance or whatever. But that's

1316
01:23:48,920 --> 01:23:53,039
different from public divine revelation that binds everyone in the church.

1317
01:23:53,359 --> 01:23:56,239
And we know that because in the second and third

1318
01:23:56,319 --> 01:23:59,279
century there was a group that arose called the Montanists,

1319
01:24:00,039 --> 01:24:03,239
and Montanus claimed to be a new prophet who was

1320
01:24:03,319 --> 01:24:07,399
given new divine revelations in the church. Out out of

1321
01:24:07,479 --> 01:24:08,920
hand rejected Montanism.

1322
01:24:11,840 --> 01:24:13,079
Speaker 14: Man, I'm gonna be honest.

1323
01:24:13,199 --> 01:24:15,520
Speaker 25: You used a lot of things that I honestly have

1324
01:24:15,720 --> 01:24:18,079
not heard of or words that I haven't heard over before.

1325
01:24:18,239 --> 01:24:21,479
Speaker 4: But listening to you and other Orthodox.

1326
01:24:22,520 --> 01:24:25,479
Speaker 25: Public figures has has encouraged me to go get.

1327
01:24:25,680 --> 01:24:28,199
Speaker 9: Yeah, well just yeah, I really appreciate it. Yeah, get

1328
01:24:28,199 --> 01:24:30,439
an orthodox study by it will take your time, you know,

1329
01:24:30,520 --> 01:24:32,039
write some of the ideas down if you want to

1330
01:24:32,079 --> 01:24:33,199
go double check it or whatever.

1331
01:24:33,760 --> 01:24:33,920
Speaker 10: You know.

1332
01:24:34,039 --> 01:24:36,479
Speaker 9: The the idea of Montanism is is, you know, just

1333
01:24:36,560 --> 01:24:38,960
look up what the histor just just even Wikipedia would

1334
01:24:39,000 --> 01:24:42,239
be good on something like Montanas M. O. N. T. A.

1335
01:24:42,319 --> 01:24:48,520
And US and the Montanists and that early charismatic movement

1336
01:24:48,800 --> 01:24:52,760
of the second third century, which by the way, claimed

1337
01:24:52,920 --> 01:24:56,199
Tertullian as one of its member. Totullian left the church

1338
01:24:56,399 --> 01:25:00,920
and became a Montanist. And so this early version of charismaticism,

1339
01:25:01,000 --> 01:25:03,520
by the way, it also shows that all the crazy

1340
01:25:03,560 --> 01:25:06,399
heresies that we see today, they were already there in

1341
01:25:06,479 --> 01:25:09,039
the early Church in the fourth, fifth, sixth, seventh century.

1342
01:25:09,199 --> 01:25:11,520
Even in the first and second century. You got the

1343
01:25:11,640 --> 01:25:16,239
Judaizers like Bryce and Gray, you got the charismatic like

1344
01:25:17,319 --> 01:25:22,640
Joseph Smith, Ellen White Pentecostals. All of these mistakes were

1345
01:25:22,680 --> 01:25:26,359
already there and already rejected. Truth talker, by the way,

1346
01:25:26,399 --> 01:25:28,560
give me just one second. It's freezing Colin here, gonna

1347
01:25:28,600 --> 01:25:39,239
turn the air conditioning down. All right, truth talker, what's up?

1348
01:25:39,279 --> 01:25:42,000
Man gonna? I'm you hey, but sorry, I didn't hear

1349
01:25:42,039 --> 01:25:45,039
you speaking. There must have been a delay. What's on

1350
01:25:45,079 --> 01:25:45,640
your question?

1351
01:25:46,159 --> 01:25:47,119
Speaker 2: You know, I just had a question.

1352
01:25:47,319 --> 01:25:50,760
Speaker 12: I'm just joining the space last few minutes and having

1353
01:25:50,800 --> 01:25:53,600
heard the first part of it. So I grew up

1354
01:25:53,960 --> 01:25:59,279
Southern Baptist, me too, and uh so I'm curiously that's

1355
01:25:59,319 --> 01:26:03,199
been called so you know, I believe I know I've

1356
01:26:03,199 --> 01:26:05,079
been reading up on you know some of the some

1357
01:26:05,199 --> 01:26:08,439
of the early even Catholic church fathers, and you know,

1358
01:26:08,760 --> 01:26:10,920
not so much Orthodox, but I'm reading up.

1359
01:26:10,880 --> 01:26:12,800
Speaker 9: On that, and well, well we have the same church

1360
01:26:12,880 --> 01:26:15,960
fathers for the first thousand years, so right, right.

1361
01:26:15,920 --> 01:26:19,960
Speaker 12: Right, So so to my knowledge, we believe the same obviously,

1362
01:26:20,159 --> 01:26:21,600
you know, the Trinity, the Triyan God.

1363
01:26:21,880 --> 01:26:22,039
Speaker 11: Right.

1364
01:26:22,279 --> 01:26:25,239
Speaker 12: So when when the titles Protestism is false, I just

1365
01:26:25,399 --> 01:26:26,319
real quickly.

1366
01:26:26,039 --> 01:26:27,399
Speaker 4: I mean, not to go too long, but what do

1367
01:26:27,479 --> 01:26:28,079
you mean by that?

1368
01:26:28,239 --> 01:26:29,920
Speaker 12: And then I had a couple of follow.

1369
01:26:29,800 --> 01:26:33,640
Speaker 9: Up questions, Well, uh, it's true that in terms of

1370
01:26:34,479 --> 01:26:37,199
what we verbally say, when we say we believe in

1371
01:26:37,199 --> 01:26:39,560
the deed of Christ and the Trinity, that's true that, yes,

1372
01:26:39,800 --> 01:26:44,439
we agree Protestant, Catholic, Orthodox, everybody agrees that there is

1373
01:26:44,600 --> 01:26:47,880
a Trinity and that Jesus is divine. But actually the

1374
01:26:48,359 --> 01:26:50,680
Orthodox doctrine of the Trinity is not the same as

1375
01:26:50,720 --> 01:26:54,399
the Doctor and Trinity in either Protestantism or Roman Catholicism.

1376
01:26:54,479 --> 01:26:56,439
So we have a unique doctrine of the Trinity which

1377
01:26:56,520 --> 01:27:00,760
posits a strict view of monarchical trinitarianism and the rejection

1378
01:27:00,960 --> 01:27:03,680
of the philioque, as well as the doctrine of the

1379
01:27:03,760 --> 01:27:08,359
uncreated energies. Those are essential, absolutely necessary teachings of the

1380
01:27:08,439 --> 01:27:11,880
Orthodox Church about who the Trinity and who Jesus are.

1381
01:27:13,840 --> 01:27:19,560
And also Protestantism classically speaking or in terms of historical

1382
01:27:19,640 --> 01:27:23,960
Protestanism is defined by its confessions, and so this is

1383
01:27:24,000 --> 01:27:27,760
called classical Protestanism. Even the Southern Baptists have the Southern

1384
01:27:27,800 --> 01:27:32,720
Baptist Statement of Faith everything something like that. So even

1385
01:27:32,760 --> 01:27:36,680
they have like a general layout of the principles that

1386
01:27:36,760 --> 01:27:44,600
they believe, you know, confessional Protestantism, whether it's Lutheran, Methodist, Presbyterian, Anglican,

1387
01:27:44,800 --> 01:27:48,920
they all have their public professions of faith. And we

1388
01:27:49,000 --> 01:27:53,760
would disagree with the solas solofide, you know, sol scriptura.

1389
01:27:54,359 --> 01:27:56,640
We would also disagree with the notion of the rights

1390
01:27:56,680 --> 01:28:02,399
to private interpretation. We would disagree with a totally unbounded

1391
01:28:02,520 --> 01:28:05,439
notion of freedom of contents of worship that the classical

1392
01:28:05,520 --> 01:28:10,039
reformers taught. So there's a lot of different ways that

1393
01:28:10,159 --> 01:28:12,880
that discussion could go, but those are the basics.

1394
01:28:13,720 --> 01:28:19,079
Speaker 12: So I would agree that there's probably some differences, I think,

1395
01:28:19,119 --> 01:28:22,159
though I think that the main I think the main

1396
01:28:22,199 --> 01:28:24,560
point I want to maybe go with you on just

1397
01:28:24,600 --> 01:28:26,960
for a couple of minutes is the you know, uh,

1398
01:28:27,399 --> 01:28:30,600
the solo interpretation, I think, at least in my church.

1399
01:28:30,680 --> 01:28:34,479
So I'll speak on my personal experience. My pastor used

1400
01:28:34,479 --> 01:28:36,720
to say, even at a very young age, for myself,

1401
01:28:36,800 --> 01:28:39,479
there's no such thing as your personal interpretation. There's only

1402
01:28:39,560 --> 01:28:42,640
the truth, and then there's false interpretations of the doctrine.

1403
01:28:42,720 --> 01:28:42,840
Speaker 14: Right.

1404
01:28:43,000 --> 01:28:47,279
Speaker 12: So do you think that what you said about how

1405
01:28:47,319 --> 01:28:49,720
the Protestant churches kind of have their own Oh, this

1406
01:28:49,880 --> 01:28:51,800
is what I got, this is what I feel about.

1407
01:28:51,960 --> 01:28:54,039
Speaker 4: Is that unique to a.

1408
01:28:54,079 --> 01:28:55,880
Speaker 12: Small number of churches or do you think that that's

1409
01:28:56,079 --> 01:28:59,279
just kind of a whole of Protestant faith of Well,

1410
01:28:59,359 --> 01:29:01,560
I don't need I don't need the clergy to tell me.

1411
01:29:01,880 --> 01:29:02,920
Speaker 4: Well, I don't need scholars and.

1412
01:29:02,920 --> 01:29:03,680
Speaker 12: Tell me what this means.

1413
01:29:03,720 --> 01:29:04,760
Speaker 14: This is how I feel about it.

1414
01:29:04,840 --> 01:29:06,119
Speaker 12: Is that is that kind of what you think is?

1415
01:29:06,319 --> 01:29:08,039
Speaker 9: Well, I mean it could apply to that, but I

1416
01:29:08,119 --> 01:29:11,720
mean beyond just that question of I understand that many

1417
01:29:11,760 --> 01:29:16,359
Protestants and Evangelicals would would recognize some degree of authority

1418
01:29:16,479 --> 01:29:20,880
for elders and you know, pastors and presbyters. But I'm

1419
01:29:20,920 --> 01:29:24,960
saying it's a fundamentally different principle of church governance. It's

1420
01:29:24,960 --> 01:29:29,960
an episcopate, it's Apostolic succession. It's the necessity of Apostolic

1421
01:29:30,039 --> 01:29:33,079
tradition to know what the Biblical canon is, for example,

1422
01:29:33,199 --> 01:29:35,600
hence why we have more books than the Protestant canon.

1423
01:29:36,000 --> 01:29:38,199
So all of those elements go into it, as well

1424
01:29:38,319 --> 01:29:43,000
as the separate issue of the successors to the apostles

1425
01:29:43,119 --> 01:29:46,199
not just having the right to state their opinions, but

1426
01:29:46,319 --> 01:29:49,079
actually to bind people to an interpretation. So for example,

1427
01:29:49,119 --> 01:29:51,560
at the Council of Nicia, they don't just kind of

1428
01:29:51,600 --> 01:29:54,359
give an option for Arias and say, look, Arius, it'd

1429
01:29:54,359 --> 01:29:56,560
be nice if you agreed with us, but if not,

1430
01:29:56,880 --> 01:29:59,520
you can go start. You know, the Aryan stripmall church,

1431
01:29:59,760 --> 01:30:03,239
you know, if you want no. They believe that they

1432
01:30:03,359 --> 01:30:06,239
have the authority, like Paul told the church at Corinth

1433
01:30:06,359 --> 01:30:10,319
to excommunicate people and hand them over to Satan. And

1434
01:30:10,439 --> 01:30:15,000
that's why the church says we excommunicate areas he is

1435
01:30:15,079 --> 01:30:19,039
of the double you know, he's out. And ultimately ex

1436
01:30:19,039 --> 01:30:22,199
communication is intended to have a remedial effect. It's not

1437
01:30:22,399 --> 01:30:25,840
just to quote damn people, but it is a real

1438
01:30:26,079 --> 01:30:29,840
power and authority that you do not really see in

1439
01:30:30,439 --> 01:30:34,880
the Protestant mindset. Precisely because there's a tension in Protestant

1440
01:30:34,920 --> 01:30:38,039
theology between the right of private interpretation and the freedom

1441
01:30:38,079 --> 01:30:41,359
of conscience, and the so called authority of a minister

1442
01:30:41,520 --> 01:30:44,760
to bind people to an interpretation and to excommunicate them.

1443
01:30:46,079 --> 01:30:49,119
Speaker 4: Yeah, and this will be my last talking point. I

1444
01:30:49,199 --> 01:30:50,560
know you got a lot of people that probably want.

1445
01:30:50,439 --> 01:30:50,760
Speaker 10: To come up.

1446
01:30:51,720 --> 01:30:54,359
Speaker 12: I think that maybe then, just hearing, because this isn't

1447
01:30:54,359 --> 01:30:57,720
the first time I've had this conversation with someone in orthodoxy.

1448
01:30:58,760 --> 01:31:01,319
I think the more I hear it, where I realized

1449
01:31:01,359 --> 01:31:04,199
that maybe my circumstance may have been unique in the

1450
01:31:04,239 --> 01:31:06,079
way that our pastor guided our church.

1451
01:31:06,960 --> 01:31:08,319
Speaker 4: Doesn't seem like you got it in in.

1452
01:31:08,359 --> 01:31:10,079
Speaker 14: A typical Protestant type way.

1453
01:31:10,760 --> 01:31:13,119
Speaker 12: But uh, you know that being said, I think that

1454
01:31:14,319 --> 01:31:16,119
you know, maybe maybe maybe.

1455
01:31:15,960 --> 01:31:18,840
Speaker 9: You can give your opinion that Apostolic succession, and we

1456
01:31:19,000 --> 01:31:23,159
believe is when Paul talks to Timothy that he taught

1457
01:31:23,239 --> 01:31:25,720
for three years, day and night in Ephesus x twenty,

1458
01:31:25,800 --> 01:31:28,479
and then he lays hands on Timothy. He tells Timothy

1459
01:31:28,600 --> 01:31:30,840
not to hastily lay hands on anyone because the gift

1460
01:31:30,880 --> 01:31:33,399
to the Holy Spirit has passed on That for us

1461
01:31:33,560 --> 01:31:37,319
is apostolic succession, which is a real power. They shouldn't

1462
01:31:37,359 --> 01:31:40,520
be given hastily, and it's modeled on numbers eleven. When

1463
01:31:40,600 --> 01:31:43,760
you know you have the elders being laid their hands

1464
01:31:44,279 --> 01:31:47,159
by Moses, and then it says the Holy Spirit's given

1465
01:31:47,199 --> 01:31:49,720
by Moses to the elders. This is mirrored by what

1466
01:31:49,880 --> 01:31:54,640
Paul's doing. And most Protestants do not believe that in

1467
01:31:54,680 --> 01:31:57,399
the laying out of hands there's an actual transference of

1468
01:31:57,479 --> 01:32:01,079
power by the Holy Spirit. Hence they don't scary well,

1469
01:32:01,079 --> 01:32:02,920
they don't believe in They don't believe that it's a

1470
01:32:04,960 --> 01:32:08,079
a sacramental power. They just kind of see it as

1471
01:32:08,720 --> 01:32:11,560
a committee appointing you to be a pastor or whatever.

1472
01:32:12,319 --> 01:32:12,479
Speaker 14: Yeah.

1473
01:32:12,600 --> 01:32:14,239
Speaker 12: No, I can see where that can be a problem

1474
01:32:14,319 --> 01:32:16,680
because that's anti biblical for them to say that it

1475
01:32:17,159 --> 01:32:18,079
is insignificant.

1476
01:32:18,239 --> 01:32:19,720
Speaker 9: Anyway, I agree with you on that.

1477
01:32:20,000 --> 01:32:21,880
Speaker 12: So all right, Well, I look, I said, man, I

1478
01:32:21,880 --> 01:32:22,359
don't want to.

1479
01:32:22,319 --> 01:32:23,000
Speaker 19: Take up too much time.

1480
01:32:23,000 --> 01:32:24,840
Speaker 4: I appreciate I camming in your spaces.

1481
01:32:34,079 --> 01:32:46,319
Speaker 9: Luther. Hey, how's it going, Yes, sir.

1482
01:32:48,000 --> 01:32:51,960
Speaker 10: Uh, I was listening to one of your streams a

1483
01:32:52,039 --> 01:32:55,760
few days ago and I heard someone comment that concessional

1484
01:32:55,840 --> 01:32:57,399
Lutherans are your greatest fear.

1485
01:32:57,920 --> 01:32:59,439
Speaker 9: Oh yeah, terrified.

1486
01:33:01,000 --> 01:33:04,760
Speaker 14: Thought that was funny. But I haven't heard a lot

1487
01:33:04,800 --> 01:33:06,439
of confessional Lutherans.

1488
01:33:06,279 --> 01:33:09,119
Speaker 9: Call in, Well, there's not that many that are out

1489
01:33:09,159 --> 01:33:13,520
there debating, so that's probably a better explanation. Yeah, I

1490
01:33:13,720 --> 01:33:14,279
would agree.

1491
01:33:17,159 --> 01:33:22,199
Speaker 10: So I had a few questions. First, one would be

1492
01:33:23,680 --> 01:33:25,119
when it comes to the philioque.

1493
01:33:25,359 --> 01:33:25,960
Speaker 7: I think I was.

1494
01:33:26,000 --> 01:33:27,039
Speaker 9: Listening to your.

1495
01:33:28,520 --> 01:33:32,800
Speaker 10: Conversation slash debate with Redeemed Zoomer, you know.

1496
01:33:33,119 --> 01:33:36,640
Speaker 4: I'll touched on that a little bit, and he got

1497
01:33:36,680 --> 01:33:37,640
into the idea.

1498
01:33:37,479 --> 01:33:41,159
Speaker 10: That if if we say that the spirit proceeds from

1499
01:33:41,199 --> 01:33:43,920
both the Father and the Son, that that in some

1500
01:33:44,079 --> 01:33:48,760
way onto logically subordinates the spirit.

1501
01:33:50,319 --> 01:33:53,039
Speaker 9: Right, because you're giving you're giving an attribute. You're giving

1502
01:33:53,079 --> 01:33:56,439
a positive power attribute to two persons that one of

1503
01:33:56,479 --> 01:34:01,880
them lacks. And the Cappadocian dictum of all trinitarian theology

1504
01:34:01,960 --> 01:34:04,760
of the Second Ecumenical Council is that there's nothing that

1505
01:34:04,920 --> 01:34:09,279
all three persons share that's not a property of essence,

1506
01:34:09,880 --> 01:34:12,520
and anything that is unique is a property of a

1507
01:34:12,640 --> 01:34:16,720
single person in the triad. So, for example, to be

1508
01:34:16,880 --> 01:34:21,159
the son, that's the unique property of the son. Sonship

1509
01:34:21,279 --> 01:34:23,279
is not shared, and it's not a property of the

1510
01:34:23,319 --> 01:34:26,800
divine essence. It's unique to the second hypostasis of the

1511
01:34:26,920 --> 01:34:30,319
son to be the cause is unique to the Father.

1512
01:34:30,439 --> 01:34:34,960
That's his hypostatic property. So cause in the Trinity cannot

1513
01:34:35,039 --> 01:34:38,159
be shared without creating a diad where you have two

1514
01:34:38,279 --> 01:34:42,000
persons that form a principle of unity that the Holy

1515
01:34:42,079 --> 01:34:45,039
Spirit does not have or is not part of, because

1516
01:34:45,079 --> 01:34:48,159
no one believes that the Holy Spirit spirates or generates

1517
01:34:48,159 --> 01:34:52,039
any persons, you see, So he lacks this positive power

1518
01:34:52,239 --> 01:34:55,560
or attribute. So there's no such thing in trianitarient theology

1519
01:34:55,640 --> 01:34:59,520
as attributes that two persons share that one lacks. So

1520
01:35:00,600 --> 01:35:05,600
cause must be restricted to a hypostatic property and thus

1521
01:35:06,000 --> 01:35:08,199
only had by one person, the Father.

1522
01:35:09,720 --> 01:35:12,600
Speaker 14: All right, that makes sense to me.

1523
01:35:13,800 --> 01:35:17,720
Speaker 9: That's the that's the orthodoxology. You're already orthodoxylia.

1524
01:35:20,720 --> 01:35:21,279
Speaker 25: Necessary.

1525
01:35:21,840 --> 01:35:25,439
Speaker 14: You mentioned a council that discussed.

1526
01:35:25,279 --> 01:35:30,279
Speaker 9: Well, the second Ecumenical Council is the normative definition for

1527
01:35:30,399 --> 01:35:35,000
Trinitarian conciliar theology. The Trinity doesn't become a focus of

1528
01:35:35,159 --> 01:35:41,079
councils uh until the Palamite Synods, and that's in the

1529
01:35:41,119 --> 01:35:45,319
Middle Ages. So basically the first econmenical council is the

1530
01:35:45,359 --> 01:35:50,640
d do christ Athanacious areas et cetera. Second Ecumenical Council

1531
01:35:50,840 --> 01:35:54,720
is the Trinity, and it's Cappadocian theology that dominates that.

1532
01:35:54,960 --> 01:36:00,319
That's basal of cesarea. Uh, that's Gregory Nazianzus and Gregor

1533
01:36:00,359 --> 01:36:03,840
of Nissa. Those three church fathers are the theologians par

1534
01:36:03,960 --> 01:36:07,960
excellence and particularly Gregor Nissa of the Second Ecumenical Council.

1535
01:36:08,600 --> 01:36:11,920
So Trinity doesn't get debated much because the next several

1536
01:36:12,000 --> 01:36:16,560
councils focus on Christology, and then Trinity comes up again

1537
01:36:16,800 --> 01:36:22,520
in the Energies in Phillyoquoid controversy of the Byzantine Church

1538
01:36:22,840 --> 01:36:27,319
versus the Council of Lions, in Rome, in the West,

1539
01:36:27,439 --> 01:36:30,359
and in the Council of Florence. So trinity doesn't be

1540
01:36:30,399 --> 01:36:34,039
an issue anymore until then doesn't become an issue. And

1541
01:36:34,159 --> 01:36:39,359
the Cappadocian dictum is whatever is a common property is

1542
01:36:39,399 --> 01:36:42,399
shared by all three, and whatever is a hyposthetic property

1543
01:36:42,439 --> 01:36:43,199
is only had by one.

1544
01:36:44,680 --> 01:36:48,720
Speaker 10: All right, I haven't studied much of that, to be

1545
01:36:48,800 --> 01:36:54,079
honest with you, I'd be curious. So why you think

1546
01:36:54,239 --> 01:36:59,800
the Western Church just kind of ignored that concept.

1547
01:37:00,319 --> 01:37:04,960
Speaker 9: I don't think they ignored it. I think that Latin theology. Uh, well,

1548
01:37:05,239 --> 01:37:08,039
in the case of the Second Acadomical Council, Rome didn't

1549
01:37:08,079 --> 01:37:10,880
accept that council. In fact, the council has had out

1550
01:37:10,880 --> 01:37:16,159
of communion with Rome. It was presided over by St. Melidius,

1551
01:37:16,880 --> 01:37:19,640
and at that time was in schism with Room. It's

1552
01:37:19,640 --> 01:37:22,840
called the Malician schism, and Rome didn't accept that until

1553
01:37:23,000 --> 01:37:27,119
about two or hundred years after Calcedon. So Constantinople One

1554
01:37:28,000 --> 01:37:32,319
was not accepted in the West until centuries after Poblio.

1555
01:37:35,000 --> 01:37:39,000
Speaker 10: But was Rome in or I guess it would be

1556
01:37:39,039 --> 01:37:43,039
the Western Church. Were they in communion with the Eastern Church.

1557
01:37:42,960 --> 01:37:47,119
Speaker 9: For a time even Yeah, broadly speaking, yes, broadly speaking yes,

1558
01:37:47,239 --> 01:37:48,159
but I mean the.

1559
01:37:51,960 --> 01:37:52,159
Speaker 11: Yes.

1560
01:37:52,239 --> 01:37:56,680
Speaker 9: So after Augustine you have the dominance of his Neoplatonic

1561
01:37:57,039 --> 01:38:02,840
influenced model of the triad based around Neoplatonic doctrines of simplicity.

1562
01:38:03,399 --> 01:38:08,359
So Augustine starts with Plutonian definitions as to what simplicity

1563
01:38:08,479 --> 01:38:10,880
is and must be, and then Trinity has worked into that.

1564
01:38:11,640 --> 01:38:15,159
So we do not in the East accept his model

1565
01:38:15,199 --> 01:38:18,359
of the Trinity because it was not accepted at constantinble One.

1566
01:38:20,079 --> 01:38:22,520
Speaker 10: All right, so it's Augustine's fault.

1567
01:38:22,600 --> 01:38:26,119
Speaker 9: Then, well, it's not one person's fault. It's a series

1568
01:38:26,359 --> 01:38:33,039
of issues of theological assumptions about metaphysics that take many

1569
01:38:33,159 --> 01:38:36,760
centuries to kind of come true fruition. So that's why

1570
01:38:36,800 --> 01:38:42,439
we don't reject the West until they dogmatically state their

1571
01:38:42,560 --> 01:38:46,119
position in the eleventh, twelfth, and thirteenth centuries. That's when

1572
01:38:46,159 --> 01:38:48,159
you find a real split between you and West.

1573
01:38:49,479 --> 01:38:53,520
Speaker 4: Okay, if you don't mind, have another question.

1574
01:38:53,800 --> 01:38:57,159
Speaker 10: Okay, I think this was another thing that came up

1575
01:38:57,199 --> 01:39:03,359
in that conversation with redeem Zuomer. But uh, and it's

1576
01:39:03,399 --> 01:39:07,039
come up a lot. But the idea that the Protestant

1577
01:39:07,479 --> 01:39:12,800
view of imputation or I mean it relates to justification,

1578
01:39:12,920 --> 01:39:15,560
also that it is somehow nominalist.

1579
01:39:17,840 --> 01:39:18,760
Speaker 2: Help me understand that.

1580
01:39:19,159 --> 01:39:22,840
Speaker 9: Read Haiko Oberman's book about Luther being influenced by William

1581
01:39:22,840 --> 01:39:27,479
of Aackaman Gabriel Bile, and that will explain how that

1582
01:39:27,680 --> 01:39:29,399
was the first time in history that you could have

1583
01:39:29,479 --> 01:39:33,319
a person positing the idea that God can pronounce something

1584
01:39:34,119 --> 01:39:37,039
and it be a legal status, completely divorced from the

1585
01:39:37,119 --> 01:39:40,800
ontological status. So God can call me righteous even though

1586
01:39:40,800 --> 01:39:45,560
I'm wicked. Nominalism is the philosophy that facilitates that.

1587
01:39:47,239 --> 01:39:48,359
Speaker 25: What would you say to.

1588
01:39:51,000 --> 01:39:53,479
Speaker 10: Response is that basically, it's not it's not that it

1589
01:39:53,520 --> 01:39:55,840
doesn't have an ontological basis.

1590
01:39:55,520 --> 01:39:58,560
Speaker 9: Because it's but that is the Protestant view. The Protestant

1591
01:39:58,640 --> 01:40:01,239
view is in terms of souls, tour and justification by

1592
01:40:01,279 --> 01:40:04,119
faith alone, is that when God pronounces you righteous, it

1593
01:40:04,199 --> 01:40:07,199
has nothing to do with anything in you or that

1594
01:40:07,399 --> 01:40:10,760
you do. It is solely on the basis of the

1595
01:40:10,880 --> 01:40:16,880
imputation in Christ's work. Well, I don't know.

1596
01:40:16,960 --> 01:40:19,920
Speaker 10: I tend to think of it more as having a

1597
01:40:21,079 --> 01:40:23,640
union with Christ aspect to it.

1598
01:40:24,000 --> 01:40:28,920
Speaker 9: No, No, the doctrine of justification in classical Reformation teaching

1599
01:40:29,840 --> 01:40:33,520
does not posit that the basis of the legal imputation

1600
01:40:33,760 --> 01:40:35,600
is anything that you do. That's Luther.

1601
01:40:39,199 --> 01:40:39,560
Speaker 10: I don't know.

1602
01:40:41,359 --> 01:40:43,920
Speaker 9: You don't know. I mean, I've read Luther's commentary on

1603
01:40:44,039 --> 01:40:46,479
Romans is commentary on Galatians. You don't think he teaches that.

1604
01:40:47,000 --> 01:40:50,039
Speaker 10: Yeah, Well, he might teach something like that, or he

1605
01:40:50,119 --> 01:40:52,920
might He might be kind of inconsistent because he also

1606
01:40:53,840 --> 01:40:57,720
speaks very highly of baptism in it that in baptism,

1607
01:40:57,840 --> 01:41:02,680
that's that's when we are clothed Christ's righteousness. I'd also

1608
01:41:02,760 --> 01:41:05,720
go to Romans six, like we we truly die with

1609
01:41:05,960 --> 01:41:09,000
Christ's in baptism and are.

1610
01:41:09,000 --> 01:41:11,479
Speaker 9: United to him in that way. Yeah, I understand. He

1611
01:41:11,600 --> 01:41:15,359
teaches baptism regeneration, but even baptism regeneration, the gifts and

1612
01:41:15,439 --> 01:41:18,560
graces of that come to you because you're elect right,

1613
01:41:18,720 --> 01:41:22,560
So he believes in predestination like Augustine does. Se the

1614
01:41:22,720 --> 01:41:25,399
actions and works that you do, even going to the

1615
01:41:25,439 --> 01:41:28,920
baptismal font. In Luther's view, it's God that caused you

1616
01:41:29,000 --> 01:41:31,600
to get there and to be baptized. So even those

1617
01:41:31,720 --> 01:41:37,560
works are the works that God caused in you. Maybe

1618
01:41:37,800 --> 01:41:41,439
maybe somewhat hold on, hold on, hold on, you say,

1619
01:41:41,520 --> 01:41:45,319
maybe somewhat. Have you read Bonda of the Will, I've

1620
01:41:45,439 --> 01:41:48,800
started it. Okay, Well, that's why he's got.

1621
01:41:48,680 --> 01:41:52,840
Speaker 14: A strong, a strong predestination view.

1622
01:41:53,000 --> 01:41:55,119
Speaker 9: And he says what I just told you because I

1623
01:41:55,159 --> 01:42:00,159
read this book twenty years ago. Yeah, well, I know.

1624
01:42:00,239 --> 01:42:03,439
Speaker 10: We also just believe in infant baptism and that all

1625
01:42:03,560 --> 01:42:04,319
babies who.

1626
01:42:04,279 --> 01:42:09,960
Speaker 9: Are I know that, but that still can fit within

1627
01:42:10,039 --> 01:42:13,479
an Augustinian predestinarian model. Augustine believed the same thing, that

1628
01:42:14,159 --> 01:42:16,960
infants who make it to the font were destined to

1629
01:42:17,039 --> 01:42:22,279
be there. In Augustine's model, he doesn't believe that that

1630
01:42:22,520 --> 01:42:25,159
necessitates that you get the gift of perseverance, so you

1631
01:42:25,279 --> 01:42:29,199
might fall away in the Augustinian model. Luther's model is

1632
01:42:29,239 --> 01:42:32,159
more like a well, if you fell away, you were

1633
01:42:32,199 --> 01:42:34,680
never really elect So I know he's not a Calvinist

1634
01:42:34,760 --> 01:42:37,439
because he believes in a baptism regeneration. Calvin does not.

1635
01:42:38,279 --> 01:42:42,239
But I assure you that what I'm telling you is correct.

1636
01:42:42,359 --> 01:42:45,119
I had when I was a Calvinist. I had a

1637
01:42:45,359 --> 01:42:47,199
period maybe a year, where I was tempted to be

1638
01:42:47,439 --> 01:42:50,600
interested in Lutheranism, and so I read about six or

1639
01:42:50,600 --> 01:42:55,720
seven of Luther's books twenty years ago. But I eventually

1640
01:42:55,880 --> 01:43:03,720
was not convinced because Lutheranism is crystologically erroneous. And I

1641
01:43:03,840 --> 01:43:08,239
read Luther's debate with Jan Eck, and if you read

1642
01:43:08,239 --> 01:43:11,520
the full debate, it's pretty funny. And I found k

1643
01:43:11,600 --> 01:43:13,760
to be the winner of that debate. But I thank

1644
01:43:13,800 --> 01:43:21,439
you for your questions. Uh, we're looking for Protestants tonight,

1645
01:43:21,560 --> 01:43:23,840
so I see a lot of Orthodox guys. I'm asking

1646
01:43:23,920 --> 01:43:27,960
for Protestants, Holy Assassin, what's up? Protestants or Catholics are

1647
01:43:28,000 --> 01:43:32,199
Muslims tonight? Please? If you're an Orthodox catechumen, don't bring you.

1648
01:43:33,720 --> 01:43:34,079
Speaker 2: What's up?

1649
01:43:34,119 --> 01:43:35,720
Speaker 4: How's it going your mind.

1650
01:43:37,119 --> 01:43:39,520
Speaker 15: Yeah, honestly, I mainly wanted to kind of discuss the

1651
01:43:39,720 --> 01:43:41,039
Orthodox Church.

1652
01:43:41,159 --> 01:43:43,800
Speaker 4: View of the Old Testament, but I I just had

1653
01:43:43,840 --> 01:43:44,479
a quick question.

1654
01:43:44,600 --> 01:43:47,239
Speaker 15: So I've heard you say that, like when you're when

1655
01:43:47,279 --> 01:43:51,479
you are defending the Orthodox position on justification, you say

1656
01:43:51,600 --> 01:43:55,960
like that, even like putting your faith in Jesus is

1657
01:43:56,039 --> 01:43:57,479
a word you do right with Like, ha, do you

1658
01:43:57,560 --> 01:44:01,199
reconcile with that? With Ephesians where Paul says that.

1659
01:44:03,239 --> 01:44:08,760
Speaker 9: You know that salvation is a gift, Jesus is the

1660
01:44:08,800 --> 01:44:11,239
one that says this is the work of God, that

1661
01:44:11,319 --> 01:44:12,520
you believe on him that He's sent.

1662
01:44:16,880 --> 01:44:17,319
Speaker 14: Are you there?

1663
01:44:25,359 --> 01:44:26,640
Speaker 9: I can't hear you, So I don't know if you

1664
01:44:26,760 --> 01:44:29,399
dropped off for what. Yeah. I don't think there's any

1665
01:44:30,039 --> 01:44:34,800
discord between the idea that works are necessary and that

1666
01:44:35,159 --> 01:44:38,039
their gifts of grace. The only difference is that I

1667
01:44:38,159 --> 01:44:42,399
don't believe in the Lutheran view that God is directly

1668
01:44:42,800 --> 01:44:45,920
causing me to do the good works. There's a cooperation

1669
01:44:46,359 --> 01:44:51,079
that goes along with me working with God. And that's

1670
01:44:51,119 --> 01:44:54,319
why Paul can say that the only faith that counts

1671
01:44:54,359 --> 01:44:57,720
this is Paul, not James. Paul says, the only faith

1672
01:44:57,800 --> 01:45:01,560
that counts is the faith that worketh through love. And

1673
01:45:01,640 --> 01:45:03,760
when he lists what love is and verse twenty thirteen,

1674
01:45:03,920 --> 01:45:07,199
it's a bunch of works. So Paul teaches the necessity

1675
01:45:07,319 --> 01:45:11,720
of works. But the works, as Augustine says, themselves, are

1676
01:45:11,800 --> 01:45:15,039
also divine gifts of grace. That doesn't mean that I

1677
01:45:15,079 --> 01:45:17,680
don't cooperate. But I can still say that my good

1678
01:45:17,800 --> 01:45:21,319
works even though I do have a synergy that God

1679
01:45:21,439 --> 01:45:25,520
created me to have as a created being who cooperates

1680
01:45:25,560 --> 01:45:28,000
with God, like Paul says, Paul says, I am a

1681
01:45:28,199 --> 01:45:32,119
co worker with Christ. Is Paul detracting from God's grace

1682
01:45:32,159 --> 01:45:35,640
because he calls himself a coworker. No, and so likewise

1683
01:45:35,720 --> 01:45:39,399
we are co workers. But get the works themselves are

1684
01:45:39,520 --> 01:45:43,359
also done by grace. If you want to come back,

1685
01:45:45,079 --> 01:45:46,439
try again, if you're at Mike's.

1686
01:45:46,239 --> 01:45:49,760
Speaker 14: Working, you can hear me.

1687
01:45:50,000 --> 01:45:54,880
Speaker 15: Yeah, yeah, mat, I totally got disconnected. So yeah, So

1688
01:45:55,159 --> 01:45:58,279
the Orthodox Church, right, you have a canon? So like

1689
01:45:58,399 --> 01:46:02,720
what's the basis of the Orthodox canon? Because and like,

1690
01:46:02,880 --> 01:46:05,520
how do you even trust that the Orthodox is right

1691
01:46:05,680 --> 01:46:08,800
when they determined that this particular book belongs to canon,

1692
01:46:09,720 --> 01:46:12,079
Like what is the reliability of that perce it's the

1693
01:46:12,159 --> 01:46:12,600
same as.

1694
01:46:12,600 --> 01:46:15,279
Speaker 9: The reliability that you you would use. Right, So I

1695
01:46:15,319 --> 01:46:16,960
don't know if you did you hear the explanations or

1696
01:46:17,000 --> 01:46:19,520
did you get booted out? Right? Jesus says, this is

1697
01:46:19,600 --> 01:46:21,640
the work of God that you believe in him that

1698
01:46:21,680 --> 01:46:23,760
he has sent John six twenty nine. So that wasn't

1699
01:46:24,079 --> 01:46:27,199
me saying that it was quoting Christ calling faith at work.

1700
01:46:29,079 --> 01:46:31,319
Speaker 15: Okay, Yeah, I kind of got booted out by accident.

1701
01:46:31,479 --> 01:46:34,840
Speaker 9: Body here thatch okay. And then I said that Ephesians

1702
01:46:35,479 --> 01:46:38,439
when it talks about the works or that we're not

1703
01:46:38,640 --> 01:46:41,000
saved by works that we do, but by grace, that

1704
01:46:41,119 --> 01:46:43,640
doesn't mean that there's not a requirement of us doing works.

1705
01:46:43,680 --> 01:46:46,319
It means that our status and our interests into salvation

1706
01:46:46,520 --> 01:46:50,960
is not something that we deserve or earned because Jesus

1707
01:46:51,079 --> 01:46:54,800
saved us, right, Jesus died for us. We didn't tell

1708
01:46:54,880 --> 01:46:56,600
him that what he needed to do, and we didn't

1709
01:46:56,640 --> 01:46:59,560
earn his death. That was all done out of his

1710
01:47:00,800 --> 01:47:05,880
over abundance of love for us. So, but that doesn't

1711
01:47:06,000 --> 01:47:10,159
mean that I don't synergize with and work with God

1712
01:47:10,920 --> 01:47:13,760
work out my salvation with fear and trembling, as Paul says.

1713
01:47:13,840 --> 01:47:17,359
Paul says he's a co worker with Christ, and Paul

1714
01:47:17,439 --> 01:47:20,199
says that the only faith that saves is the one

1715
01:47:20,239 --> 01:47:21,439
that worketh through love.

1716
01:47:23,800 --> 01:47:24,359
Speaker 4: Fair point.

1717
01:47:24,920 --> 01:47:26,920
Speaker 15: So just another question before I move on to the

1718
01:47:27,199 --> 01:47:31,079
actual Old Testament arguments that had so like the proudence

1719
01:47:31,159 --> 01:47:33,479
in prices of like faith is what saves you. But

1720
01:47:33,680 --> 01:47:37,159
like the words there they just like sanctify you, Like

1721
01:47:37,279 --> 01:47:39,680
that's what you do after you get justified, right, So

1722
01:47:39,840 --> 01:47:40,520
like do you agree with that?

1723
01:47:41,399 --> 01:47:45,239
Speaker 9: No, because justification in the Bible and in the ancient

1724
01:47:45,319 --> 01:47:48,760
world was not a pure legal standing, and that's why

1725
01:47:48,920 --> 01:47:53,199
Luther and the reformers needed the philosophy of nominalism, which

1726
01:47:53,359 --> 01:47:58,199
divorced the actual reality from the name or the title

1727
01:47:58,319 --> 01:48:01,520
of it. That's called nominalism. The ancient world didn't have

1728
01:48:01,600 --> 01:48:05,079
nominalists really, So anybody who talked about in the ancient

1729
01:48:05,119 --> 01:48:08,880
medieval world as being quote righteous or being just that

1730
01:48:09,039 --> 01:48:12,079
meant they had the actual ontological power and quality of

1731
01:48:12,199 --> 01:48:14,279
being that. It wasn't just a legal status.

1732
01:48:16,199 --> 01:48:16,720
Speaker 4: Fair point.

1733
01:48:17,159 --> 01:48:19,119
Speaker 15: So this is where I wanted to get into, like

1734
01:48:19,319 --> 01:48:23,239
my arguments, let's say, like against the Orthodox Church. So

1735
01:48:24,000 --> 01:48:25,840
you know the Orthodox Church they have a different Old

1736
01:48:25,840 --> 01:48:28,800
Testament canon, and so I was just wondering, like sure,

1737
01:48:28,960 --> 01:48:31,319
like you know, there's the idea that the church has

1738
01:48:31,439 --> 01:48:33,800
the authority to decide, you know, the canon for the

1739
01:48:33,840 --> 01:48:36,760
Old Testament New Testament, But what is the basis for

1740
01:48:37,479 --> 01:48:41,560
accepting the Old Testament considering that, Like when I was

1741
01:48:41,600 --> 01:48:44,199
doing research as well in my personal research, it showed

1742
01:48:44,239 --> 01:48:46,039
that it led me to believe that a lot of

1743
01:48:46,079 --> 01:48:49,159
the scholars right the books of the Old Testament they

1744
01:48:49,239 --> 01:48:51,680
have been edited out and then like some of the

1745
01:48:51,760 --> 01:48:56,760
authors are unknown. For example, even the Book of Isaiah.

1746
01:48:57,119 --> 01:48:59,000
I think I had the Orthodox Study Bible that I have,

1747
01:48:59,239 --> 01:49:02,279
Like they kind of just give a generic traditional answer,

1748
01:49:02,359 --> 01:49:03,479
which doesn't really work.

1749
01:49:04,159 --> 01:49:05,239
Speaker 4: So for the Book of Isaiah, for.

1750
01:49:05,319 --> 01:49:08,279
Speaker 15: Example, I think the Orthodox City Bible does say that

1751
01:49:08,439 --> 01:49:12,079
that it was written by the prophet Isaiah, but you

1752
01:49:12,159 --> 01:49:14,720
know there's nothing like there's no good evidence.

1753
01:49:14,359 --> 01:49:16,279
Speaker 9: For it, and like all the how do you know that?

1754
01:49:16,720 --> 01:49:16,760
Speaker 14: No.

1755
01:49:16,880 --> 01:49:26,520
Speaker 9: In fact, the the Dead Sea Scrolls contained old ancient

1756
01:49:26,600 --> 01:49:30,920
text of Isaiah. So I think the Dead Sea Scrolls

1757
01:49:31,079 --> 01:49:33,399
is one of the things that is an attestation to

1758
01:49:33,479 --> 01:49:37,199
the validity of Isaiah. And I mean you can say that,

1759
01:49:38,479 --> 01:49:39,640
I mean, if you're going to read a bunch of

1760
01:49:39,720 --> 01:49:42,159
like higher critical stuff I mean, they're going to say

1761
01:49:42,199 --> 01:49:46,000
that any of the Protestant stuff you believe is also false.

1762
01:49:46,319 --> 01:49:50,600
So I mean to use higher critical stuff to prove

1763
01:49:50,800 --> 01:49:53,800
Protestantism unless you were an atheist. And maybe you're already atheism.

1764
01:49:53,800 --> 01:49:55,560
I don't know, but to me, it seems like it's

1765
01:49:55,600 --> 01:50:01,720
a double edged sword. Kov, what's up. The reason that

1766
01:50:01,800 --> 01:50:04,439
the duoconomical texts are in the Bible is because the

1767
01:50:04,560 --> 01:50:10,560
apostles have they used primarily the septuagent and the subtu

1768
01:50:10,640 --> 01:50:12,840
agent included the dudo chronical texts, and that's why the

1769
01:50:12,880 --> 01:50:16,600
Apostles cite and refer to the duo canon many many times.

1770
01:50:16,800 --> 01:50:19,600
Speaker 4: Go ahead, Hey, j how are you doing?

1771
01:50:20,600 --> 01:50:22,000
Speaker 9: What's up? Man? I'm good? How are you?

1772
01:50:23,600 --> 01:50:23,640
Speaker 4: So?

1773
01:50:24,520 --> 01:50:27,960
Speaker 26: I was raised in a non denominational church, went to

1774
01:50:28,039 --> 01:50:29,359
Sunday School, went.

1775
01:50:29,319 --> 01:50:32,840
Speaker 4: To youth church, and you know, whole manuorids.

1776
01:50:33,880 --> 01:50:35,479
Speaker 26: Kind of stopped going to church.

1777
01:50:35,680 --> 01:50:37,279
Speaker 4: It was, you know, very low church.

1778
01:50:38,479 --> 01:50:40,720
Speaker 26: So I didn't feel too bad about like not going

1779
01:50:40,760 --> 01:50:43,760
when my parents weren't making me anymore. But recently I

1780
01:50:43,880 --> 01:50:46,359
just had a daughter and I'm like, I, you know,

1781
01:50:46,439 --> 01:50:48,560
I got to get my family back to church. So

1782
01:50:48,720 --> 01:50:52,079
I start looking at non anominal churches near me, and

1783
01:50:52,159 --> 01:50:53,840
I couldn't really find one, but I found.

1784
01:50:53,600 --> 01:50:55,000
Speaker 4: A bunch of other denominations.

1785
01:50:55,399 --> 01:50:59,520
Speaker 26: I started looking into those, and I realized I had

1786
01:50:59,800 --> 01:51:03,279
no idea about theology. I just got a couple questions

1787
01:51:03,399 --> 01:51:07,560
for you, Okay. So I heard a lot of like,

1788
01:51:07,760 --> 01:51:09,840
you know, the canon and all that stuff.

1789
01:51:11,199 --> 01:51:13,319
Speaker 2: Was it just Martin Luther that took.

1790
01:51:13,600 --> 01:51:16,039
Speaker 26: The books out and now all Protestants follow that?

1791
01:51:18,560 --> 01:51:19,520
Speaker 9: Well, he was the first.

1792
01:51:20,159 --> 01:51:20,279
Speaker 2: Uh.

1793
01:51:20,479 --> 01:51:25,720
Speaker 9: And then you had people who were humanists, and that

1794
01:51:25,800 --> 01:51:30,159
doesn't mean secular humanists, but like Theodore Beza and Calvin

1795
01:51:30,640 --> 01:51:34,439
and other reformers were very into a movement at that

1796
01:51:34,560 --> 01:51:37,000
time called humanism, which was a desire to go back

1797
01:51:37,119 --> 01:51:41,319
to the original texts, languages, and sources. So it was

1798
01:51:41,399 --> 01:51:45,319
kind of a movement that amongst intellectuals at that time

1799
01:51:45,600 --> 01:51:49,880
to prefer to look at, say, the Hebrew text versus

1800
01:51:50,319 --> 01:51:54,000
the Greek translation of the subtu agent. So that also

1801
01:51:54,199 --> 01:51:58,199
was part of the motivations. It wasn't just well to

1802
01:51:58,279 --> 01:52:01,199
do what Luther said, right because Calvin and Calvin's not

1803
01:52:01,840 --> 01:52:03,600
He might respect Luthor, but he's not going to just

1804
01:52:03,680 --> 01:52:06,239
do it because Luther said it or did it. Calvin

1805
01:52:06,359 --> 01:52:09,199
was a scholar of his own mind and devising, and

1806
01:52:09,319 --> 01:52:12,600
so he was interested in going back to Hebrew and

1807
01:52:12,760 --> 01:52:15,680
Greek texts, and that was part of the reason why

1808
01:52:15,760 --> 01:52:18,920
they thought, well, that would lead us to the masoretic

1809
01:52:19,000 --> 01:52:22,439
texts of the Jews versus the Canada Scripture that the

1810
01:52:22,920 --> 01:52:25,920
that the Latin Papal Church had normalized.

1811
01:52:27,760 --> 01:52:28,119
Speaker 11: Got it?

1812
01:52:28,359 --> 01:52:29,199
Speaker 14: Okay, thank you?

1813
01:52:30,439 --> 01:52:32,760
Speaker 9: So I heard I've heard you.

1814
01:52:34,239 --> 01:52:37,279
Speaker 26: In past videos talk about, you know, the five solas.

1815
01:52:39,520 --> 01:52:44,960
Now you are you just against sol scriptur and so or.

1816
01:52:46,800 --> 01:52:49,399
Speaker 4: Is there the other three that you I mean?

1817
01:52:49,479 --> 01:52:54,800
Speaker 9: I think the way that classical Protestantism brings the meanings

1818
01:52:54,840 --> 01:52:58,159
of those terms out, the way it fleshes out the solas,

1819
01:52:58,239 --> 01:53:00,640
we would as Orthodox disagree with all the solos the

1820
01:53:00,680 --> 01:53:01,520
way they define them.

1821
01:53:02,880 --> 01:53:07,600
Speaker 11: Okay, Okay, Now something I hear.

1822
01:53:08,119 --> 01:53:10,880
Speaker 26: So basically, I'm a slow boy, and so learning like

1823
01:53:11,039 --> 01:53:13,279
by reading is hard. I've been listening to a bunch

1824
01:53:13,319 --> 01:53:18,520
of Christian apologetics and debates and stuff. So I hear

1825
01:53:18,880 --> 01:53:21,760
a lot of Calvinists, and I'm sure many other.

1826
01:53:21,640 --> 01:53:22,920
Speaker 9: Protestants say this as well.

1827
01:53:23,039 --> 01:53:27,079
Speaker 26: But like they say like by or by grace through

1828
01:53:27,199 --> 01:53:32,199
faith or something like that, and then they'll turn around

1829
01:53:32,279 --> 01:53:36,960
and then say by faith alone. And I don't know

1830
01:53:37,039 --> 01:53:40,239
if you've heard the by grace through faith.

1831
01:53:40,119 --> 01:53:40,800
Speaker 4: Or something like that.

1832
01:53:42,319 --> 01:53:44,720
Speaker 9: I used to be a Protestant with the prost seminary bro.

1833
01:53:46,640 --> 01:53:50,960
Speaker 4: So when they're saying that, what does that mean versus

1834
01:53:51,560 --> 01:53:52,920
just so.

1835
01:53:53,000 --> 01:53:59,239
Speaker 9: The assumption is that human operation, energy and activity can

1836
01:53:59,359 --> 01:54:03,199
in no way tribute to the root and ground of salvation,

1837
01:54:03,479 --> 01:54:07,079
because this would be to detract from God's glory, in

1838
01:54:07,159 --> 01:54:10,359
God's sovereignty, in God's grace in salvation. So, if you

1839
01:54:10,439 --> 01:54:13,239
have anything to do with it in terms of the

1840
01:54:13,359 --> 01:54:17,520
legal status of your justification and the imputation, you're basing

1841
01:54:17,640 --> 01:54:21,239
your salvation on works. You're basing your salvation on yourself

1842
01:54:21,800 --> 01:54:24,680
self worship, will worship, and you're detracting from God and

1843
01:54:24,760 --> 01:54:27,439
you're worshiping yourself. It's an idol. This is the classic

1844
01:54:28,079 --> 01:54:34,840
Protestant Reformation preachy way to go after any notion of

1845
01:54:35,279 --> 01:54:40,000
synergy or synergism. Even though there's many arguments in many

1846
01:54:40,000 --> 01:54:43,159
ways to combat this. I've listed several already. Tonight. Jesus

1847
01:54:43,239 --> 01:54:45,560
calls faith a work in John six twenty nine. This

1848
01:54:45,720 --> 01:54:50,720
is the work of God. Jesus says that when God speaks,

1849
01:54:51,359 --> 01:54:54,520
it comes about right when God speaks to create the world.

1850
01:54:54,600 --> 01:54:57,479
It happens. When God speaks into our hearts, it happens.

1851
01:54:57,840 --> 01:55:01,039
So there's no such thing as God speaking and it

1852
01:55:01,199 --> 01:55:05,279
not being efficacious. Oh, God calls your righteous, but you're

1853
01:55:05,399 --> 01:55:08,319
filthy rags, You're an evil, wicked thing. But that's the

1854
01:55:08,399 --> 01:55:13,680
actual basis of both Luther and Calvin's doctrine of justification

1855
01:55:13,880 --> 01:55:17,199
by imputation and faith alone. Even the action of you

1856
01:55:17,319 --> 01:55:21,960
believing in Luther or Calvin's system is not the basis

1857
01:55:22,359 --> 01:55:27,039
of your salvation. That is also something God caused in you,

1858
01:55:28,000 --> 01:55:31,600
and thus that removes you from having any contribution to

1859
01:55:31,760 --> 01:55:36,279
the salvation. When you do good works and when you

1860
01:55:37,119 --> 01:55:44,840
are sanctified, those are all flowing from the justification status

1861
01:55:44,960 --> 01:55:47,159
that you got, which has nothing to do with you.

1862
01:55:48,039 --> 01:55:52,279
So you do contribute to and cooperate in sanctification, but

1863
01:55:52,399 --> 01:55:57,199
that sanctification process has absolutely nothing to do with the

1864
01:55:57,319 --> 01:56:02,520
original justification status or the regeneration status. Even though Luther's

1865
01:56:02,520 --> 01:56:04,720
a little inconsistent on that, Luther would just say, well,

1866
01:56:05,119 --> 01:56:07,600
God caused you to get to the font. So even

1867
01:56:08,079 --> 01:56:12,680
baptism regeneration in Luther's mind is still somewhat monargistic. Again

1868
01:56:13,039 --> 01:56:15,119
read bonded to the will or read it twenty years ago.

1869
01:56:15,720 --> 01:56:19,399
Luther believes that God's the direct cause of everything in

1870
01:56:19,479 --> 01:56:23,319
your life, including the good and bad works. Calvin's not

1871
01:56:23,479 --> 01:56:26,640
that extreme. He says, no, if there's anything good in

1872
01:56:26,720 --> 01:56:29,960
your life, that's God, anything bad that's you. But even

1873
01:56:30,000 --> 01:56:33,279
the good works are tainted, filthy rags in Calvin's view.

1874
01:56:33,560 --> 01:56:38,199
So you see justification in the classical Protestant systems are

1875
01:56:38,399 --> 01:56:45,560
very precise, they're very legal oriented. They're strictly legal status positions,

1876
01:56:46,600 --> 01:56:51,479
not based on ontological realities. I'm not saying that the

1877
01:56:51,520 --> 01:56:55,359
Protestant positions don't believe in antological change in you. They do,

1878
01:56:56,279 --> 01:57:00,359
but the ontological change in you that ultimately, this sort

1879
01:57:00,359 --> 01:57:04,000
of sanctification in your process of being made holy has

1880
01:57:04,119 --> 01:57:08,920
nothing to do with your original justification legal status that

1881
01:57:09,159 --> 01:57:13,640
is only on the basis of Christ's work and ultimately

1882
01:57:13,720 --> 01:57:16,279
whether you're elect or not. And that's both Luther and

1883
01:57:16,479 --> 01:57:21,319
Calvin's view because both believed in unconditional election because they

1884
01:57:21,439 --> 01:57:34,520
followed Augustine very strictly. Okay, what's up, Jake Moore? Five dollars?

1885
01:57:34,600 --> 01:57:37,920
I'm a Catholic, but for the win, very heavy, Jay,

1886
01:57:38,079 --> 01:57:42,279
have very very I don't know what that means. Fw

1887
01:57:42,520 --> 01:57:46,920
J heavy Hold on a second. What do you know about?

1888
01:57:47,479 --> 01:57:50,279
Just one second? What do you like about Shamoon? What

1889
01:57:50,359 --> 01:57:55,840
do you take issue with? Again, We've addressed this countless times.

1890
01:57:57,479 --> 01:58:00,319
I've done many, many, many streams and talks, talked to

1891
01:58:00,439 --> 01:58:03,439
Sam Schumann all the time. But Sam is at a

1892
01:58:03,479 --> 01:58:06,960
position where he believes that all of the Apostolic churches

1893
01:58:07,039 --> 01:58:11,000
have a sort of a common Apostolicity, but he doesn't

1894
01:58:11,039 --> 01:58:16,520
believe in a single divine institution per se, and so

1895
01:58:16,960 --> 01:58:19,279
he says he's not sure which of these. So I

1896
01:58:19,319 --> 01:58:21,479
would take an issue with that because obviously I promote

1897
01:58:21,520 --> 01:58:25,039
the Orthodox Church. Okay, what's up?

1898
01:58:25,960 --> 01:58:26,439
Speaker 4: Hey, Jay?

1899
01:58:26,520 --> 01:58:27,560
Speaker 9: How are you good?

1900
01:58:28,359 --> 01:58:30,239
Speaker 5: Nice to meet you man, I've been listening to you

1901
01:58:30,319 --> 01:58:32,159
for years, we never actually spoke with you in person.

1902
01:58:33,640 --> 01:58:34,119
Speaker 4: Hey, thank you.

1903
01:58:34,600 --> 01:58:36,520
Speaker 5: So first, I just want to say glory to Jesus Christ,

1904
01:58:36,560 --> 01:58:39,079
and I really hope that this conversation can be fruitful

1905
01:58:39,119 --> 01:58:41,560
and we can both you know, remember that first and

1906
01:58:41,640 --> 01:58:43,479
foremost as Christians, we need to treat each other and

1907
01:58:43,560 --> 01:58:48,800
love and respect. So why is it that you get

1908
01:58:48,920 --> 01:58:50,680
nervous as soon as you come up, but before you're

1909
01:58:50,720 --> 01:58:53,880
like completely calm what so weird.

1910
01:58:54,880 --> 01:58:56,680
Speaker 9: No, I'm saying, Oh, I'll tell you. I think you're

1911
01:58:56,680 --> 01:58:57,119
talking about me.

1912
01:58:57,159 --> 01:59:00,199
Speaker 5: And I was like, oh, no, you're you're a vetman. Yeah,

1913
01:59:01,720 --> 01:59:03,319
So first I did want to ask you. So I

1914
01:59:03,399 --> 01:59:06,239
was listening to your conversation the other day with that

1915
01:59:07,920 --> 01:59:13,279
the Joseph guy, the Ben Joseph what was it?

1916
01:59:13,439 --> 01:59:14,520
Speaker 4: The was he Mormon?

1917
01:59:15,439 --> 01:59:17,880
Speaker 9: Oh? His name was Robert Gerr. You talking about that guy?

1918
01:59:18,680 --> 01:59:21,560
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, saying that like the Joseph and the New

1919
01:59:21,640 --> 01:59:22,359
test Yes.

1920
01:59:22,640 --> 01:59:24,840
Speaker 9: The two messiahs that the Talmut has.

1921
01:59:24,960 --> 01:59:27,520
Speaker 4: Yeah, right, And I was just thinking.

1922
01:59:27,359 --> 01:59:29,199
Speaker 5: Well, maybe I'm a prophet because my middle name is Joseph.

1923
01:59:29,239 --> 01:59:31,319
Speaker 9: So there you go. How do we know it's not

1924
01:59:31,439 --> 01:59:33,720
about you? Maybe it is, Hey, it could.

1925
01:59:33,560 --> 01:59:37,960
Speaker 4: Be God forbid. So I had a question in that conversation.

1926
01:59:38,319 --> 01:59:43,199
Speaker 5: And I am someone who believes, well, I used to

1927
01:59:43,239 --> 01:59:47,359
believe very deeply in the pre sup based on the

1928
01:59:47,399 --> 01:59:49,880
teachings of Van Till and Bonson. I got introduced to them,

1929
01:59:50,159 --> 01:59:52,720
read their books. I've had some difficulties with it. So

1930
01:59:52,800 --> 01:59:54,920
I was hoping first that maybe I could share with

1931
01:59:55,000 --> 01:59:58,399
you some of my difficulties because I do believe that

1932
01:59:58,520 --> 02:00:03,000
it debunks atheism, like atheism and agnoscissism, I do believe.

1933
02:00:03,079 --> 02:00:05,399
Speaker 4: My issue is how do I defend it.

1934
02:00:05,520 --> 02:00:10,239
Speaker 5: Against other transcendental justifications, other transcendental roundings, or when they

1935
02:00:10,359 --> 02:00:12,479
do the whole like, well, I have a rock and

1936
02:00:12,560 --> 02:00:14,520
his name is Paul, and he has all the attributes

1937
02:00:14,600 --> 02:00:16,560
of the Christian God except for this one thing that

1938
02:00:16,680 --> 02:00:18,720
he's like he lied once or something.

1939
02:00:18,880 --> 02:00:20,960
Speaker 9: Right. Well, we've addressed that, and I'm not saying this

1940
02:00:21,039 --> 02:00:23,039
to be rude to you. We've addressed that many, many,

1941
02:00:23,079 --> 02:00:26,159
many times, because many people have brought that up. And

1942
02:00:26,439 --> 02:00:31,760
I argue that the Monson van Till crowd could only

1943
02:00:31,840 --> 02:00:34,439
get so far with the argument because they had a

1944
02:00:34,560 --> 02:00:38,119
defective Calvinist theology, so they didn't have a good Trinitarian

1945
02:00:38,199 --> 02:00:40,960
model to work with. And also they didn't have a

1946
02:00:41,000 --> 02:00:43,920
lot of the toolkit of the Christian metaphysics that we

1947
02:00:44,039 --> 02:00:48,560
have as orthodox Orthodox theology and metaphysics is very vast

1948
02:00:48,800 --> 02:00:54,479
and very it's a better toolkit. I don't have to

1949
02:00:54,600 --> 02:00:57,039
say it. So when I make the tag argument, I

1950
02:00:57,239 --> 02:01:01,239
argue that depending upon who I'm debating, but ultimately speaking,

1951
02:01:01,399 --> 02:01:05,039
it's not just a defense of an abstract conception of

1952
02:01:05,399 --> 02:01:08,640
a deity that reconciles one in many or an abstract

1953
02:01:08,680 --> 02:01:11,039
deity that's like a math problem or something like that.

1954
02:01:11,640 --> 02:01:15,039
You're actually arguing for the entire Christian worldview, and at

1955
02:01:15,119 --> 02:01:17,640
times Vonton Eventil would actually say that that, they would

1956
02:01:17,640 --> 02:01:21,079
actually make that point. So if that's the case, then

1957
02:01:22,079 --> 02:01:25,760
the whole world view is actually grounded on trinitarian theology.

1958
02:01:26,399 --> 02:01:29,319
And if orthodox Trinitarian theology is a correct Trinitarian theology,

1959
02:01:29,359 --> 02:01:32,640
then you need orthodox trinitary theology and the metaphysics that

1960
02:01:32,680 --> 02:01:37,039
flows from that. So you need the essence introducecinction, you

1961
02:01:37,199 --> 02:01:42,840
need the low Gie doctrine for divine conceptualism. You need

1962
02:01:43,319 --> 02:01:45,760
all kinds of things that are just not in the

1963
02:01:46,720 --> 02:01:50,760
Calvinist mindset to make it work. To refute, furthermore, on

1964
02:01:50,880 --> 02:01:53,840
a more basic level, when somebody says something like, oh, well,

1965
02:01:53,880 --> 02:01:56,359
my rock, I have a rock that has all the

1966
02:01:56,399 --> 02:01:58,520
same attributes, Well, first of all, it would not be

1967
02:01:58,680 --> 02:02:01,279
the same attributes if it's a rock. A rock is

1968
02:02:01,319 --> 02:02:04,039
a created thing, so to give the rock all the

1969
02:02:04,119 --> 02:02:07,560
attributes of the Trinity would be absurd. But beyond that,

1970
02:02:07,720 --> 02:02:12,520
it's even more flawed because the Christian paradigm is not

1971
02:02:12,760 --> 02:02:16,119
just an abstract conceptual list of propositions or doctrines or

1972
02:02:16,159 --> 02:02:19,199
ideas like math problems or sets or something like that.

1973
02:02:19,319 --> 02:02:23,039
It's actually a historic religion, so you actually need the

1974
02:02:23,159 --> 02:02:26,920
incarnational aspect, God stepping into time and space, the Son

1975
02:02:27,000 --> 02:02:29,920
of God becoming man. That affects our view of history.

1976
02:02:30,000 --> 02:02:32,359
God stepped into history, so history is now part of

1977
02:02:32,960 --> 02:02:37,319
the Christian paradigm, you see. And so this atheist, this

1978
02:02:38,039 --> 02:02:42,000
specuative view of the trinitarian rock God, would not have

1979
02:02:42,199 --> 02:02:45,159
all the same attributes. It would also be an obvious

1980
02:02:45,279 --> 02:02:50,079
copy paste from the already historically grounded and situated religion

1981
02:02:50,119 --> 02:02:50,840
of Christianity.

1982
02:02:51,720 --> 02:02:53,720
Speaker 5: Okay, do you have any books that I could read

1983
02:02:53,760 --> 02:02:55,840
other than because I'm pretty much done with Bonton. I

1984
02:02:55,960 --> 02:02:58,680
was reading his how he kind of interprets the van

1985
02:02:58,760 --> 02:03:00,640
Til because man Till is very heavy, so he tries

1986
02:03:00,680 --> 02:03:03,159
to come in and kind of interpret it for someone

1987
02:03:03,199 --> 02:03:05,359
that's a little more late. But like you said, there's

1988
02:03:05,399 --> 02:03:07,720
issues with that, and this dude just keeps repeating himself

1989
02:03:07,760 --> 02:03:09,239
over and over. I'm like one hundred pages in and

1990
02:03:09,319 --> 02:03:12,439
he said the same thing like twenty times. So do

1991
02:03:12,560 --> 02:03:15,720
you have any other books that you would recommend for

1992
02:03:15,880 --> 02:03:16,960
the precept that I could learn a.

1993
02:03:16,920 --> 02:03:20,880
Speaker 9: Little bit more honestly, not really not from them. I

1994
02:03:20,920 --> 02:03:24,319
would say watch all of our old transcendental argument and

1995
02:03:25,000 --> 02:03:29,199
precept videos going back last six years, because we get

1996
02:03:29,239 --> 02:03:31,800
into all the all those questions, all those questions that

1997
02:03:32,560 --> 02:03:35,840
all those questions that you're asking. You know, we actually

1998
02:03:36,600 --> 02:03:38,760
have dealt with us for a long time. So that

1999
02:03:38,920 --> 02:03:41,439
might be a better route than saying, oh, go read

2000
02:03:41,520 --> 02:03:43,439
Bonson here, because Bonnson and Ben Tall are not going

2001
02:03:43,479 --> 02:03:46,520
to deal with those questions. They don't have the tool

2002
02:03:46,600 --> 02:03:50,119
kit to deal with it. Modernity, what's up? Even though,

2003
02:03:50,319 --> 02:03:53,880
like you said, they did get so far with tag

2004
02:04:02,840 --> 02:04:05,119
recovering areaan three dollars. In my opinion, the only thing

2005
02:04:05,239 --> 02:04:09,960
left to debunk in the Protestants is conservative non Calvinist

2006
02:04:10,119 --> 02:04:13,720
high churches that claim up so succession in Liturgic War.

2007
02:04:13,840 --> 02:04:17,720
So Anglicans, well, that may be the case, but there's

2008
02:04:17,760 --> 02:04:19,600
not a lot of those. I mean, I've had like

2009
02:04:19,720 --> 02:04:22,880
maybe two Anglicans ever call into debate. So I mean,

2010
02:04:23,079 --> 02:04:25,680
if that's what's left, then we're doing pretty good because

2011
02:04:26,039 --> 02:04:27,880
there's not a lot of there's not a lot of

2012
02:04:27,960 --> 02:04:30,319
loud Anglican voices. Although I did try to get that

2013
02:04:30,800 --> 02:04:34,239
Black Day with Afro Calvin Robinson or whatever his name is.

2014
02:04:35,119 --> 02:04:38,239
We were having exchanges back and forth before he did

2015
02:04:38,319 --> 02:04:43,920
his faux tiny mustache man debacle thing, which was kind

2016
02:04:43,960 --> 02:04:48,279
of ridiculous, and I think his Anglican synod made him

2017
02:04:48,279 --> 02:04:51,319
step down. We're just in this is such a weird

2018
02:04:51,399 --> 02:04:56,119
time to be alive where Kanye and Anglican black dudes

2019
02:04:56,199 --> 02:05:02,399
are like doing Roman salutes and putting up tiny mustache

2020
02:05:02,479 --> 02:05:06,680
man symbols. Like, it's just such a weird time to

2021
02:05:06,760 --> 02:05:08,399
be alive. I don't even know how to process it.

2022
02:05:08,880 --> 02:05:12,239
Like I'm not saying Calvin Robinson is a tiny mustache

2023
02:05:12,279 --> 02:05:15,840
Man follower. I know he's not. But we were actually

2024
02:05:15,960 --> 02:05:18,560
discussing having a kind of a debate, and then he

2025
02:05:18,720 --> 02:05:22,479
just kind of wind and bitched about me challenging him

2026
02:05:22,520 --> 02:05:24,319
to a debate when he said he would debate people.

2027
02:05:25,640 --> 02:05:28,760
It's just and by the way, like to give a

2028
02:05:28,840 --> 02:05:31,000
shout out to Dasha, I don't have anything against this

2029
02:05:31,119 --> 02:05:36,119
girl she put up. By the way, she was on

2030
02:05:36,760 --> 02:05:39,000
Sam Hyde's Perfect Guy Life, like right before I was

2031
02:05:39,119 --> 02:05:40,840
like a week or two before me, maybe a month

2032
02:05:40,880 --> 02:05:44,760
before me. I think she's an actress in some series.

2033
02:05:44,800 --> 02:05:49,199
I forget what, But she went from being on the left,

2034
02:05:49,560 --> 02:05:52,279
and she was part of Chapo Traphouse, remember that podcast.

2035
02:05:52,399 --> 02:05:56,399
And then now she is going to an Eastern Catholic

2036
02:05:56,520 --> 02:05:59,760
church and she's always tweeting about I'll debate anybody about

2037
02:05:59,760 --> 02:06:05,840
worths like stuff, and I'm like, let's do it, and uh,

2038
02:06:05,960 --> 02:06:08,000
I'm not going to be mean, and then she's like, oh,

2039
02:06:08,000 --> 02:06:10,079
I'm not going to quarrel during lent during Lent and

2040
02:06:10,159 --> 02:06:12,199
it's like, well, you just said you wanted to do it.

2041
02:06:12,359 --> 02:06:15,920
So it's like people put these things out where they

2042
02:06:15,960 --> 02:06:18,600
want to do this stuff, and Calvin Robinson did the

2043
02:06:18,640 --> 02:06:22,840
same thing, and then when you say all right, let's

2044
02:06:22,920 --> 02:06:25,960
do it, then suddenly they dash it. Whatever. She didn't

2045
02:06:25,960 --> 02:06:27,680
do this, but that Calvin Robinson did it was oh

2046
02:06:27,800 --> 02:06:29,439
look how look out what a piece of shit this

2047
02:06:29,560 --> 02:06:32,800
dude is. So it's like, I want to put myself

2048
02:06:32,840 --> 02:06:35,760
out there. I want to say I'm ready to debate anybody.

2049
02:06:35,840 --> 02:06:38,039
When people actually then say they want a debate. Look

2050
02:06:38,039 --> 02:06:40,199
at this piece of shit. Look at him. Oh he

2051
02:06:40,359 --> 02:06:42,880
just wants attention. Dude, you're the one saying that you

2052
02:06:42,960 --> 02:06:47,239
wanted this. What are you talking about. People on the

2053
02:06:47,319 --> 02:06:50,079
internet are just insane, man, They just don't It's like

2054
02:06:52,079 --> 02:06:54,439
and then everybody thinks I'm being mean. It's like, how

2055
02:06:54,479 --> 02:06:56,279
am I being mean if I'm asking them to come

2056
02:06:56,359 --> 02:06:59,880
have the discussion that they said they wanted, So now

2057
02:07:00,000 --> 02:07:02,279
I just don't want it with you. That's what it is.

2058
02:07:02,560 --> 02:07:02,600
Speaker 4: Like.

2059
02:07:03,119 --> 02:07:05,319
Speaker 9: They want to have the discussion with a bunch of idiots.

2060
02:07:05,359 --> 02:07:08,279
They don't want to have that with you. I feel

2061
02:07:08,319 --> 02:07:10,520
like I feel like I'm turning into Quentin. They don't

2062
02:07:10,520 --> 02:07:12,720
want to have that with me. Okay, I'm turning into

2063
02:07:12,840 --> 02:07:16,560
freaking Quentin Tarantino. Okay, like we're gonna We're not gonna

2064
02:07:16,560 --> 02:07:19,399
have that discussion because I'm gonna shut your butt down. Okay,

2065
02:07:19,760 --> 02:07:22,199
you want to have discussion, but now with me, Okay,

2066
02:07:22,439 --> 02:07:25,479
now with me, right, and let's just be freaking honest

2067
02:07:25,479 --> 02:07:31,800
about that. Okay, I'm turning into Tarantino. Jamie, welcome back.

2068
02:07:33,800 --> 02:07:39,680
Could you make me an espresso ex tanglia ten dollars?

2069
02:07:39,920 --> 02:07:43,560
Smash the leg button Wi Fi Gospel. We already read that.

2070
02:07:43,720 --> 02:07:45,720
Excuse me. I'm trying to make sure I didn't miss

2071
02:07:45,720 --> 02:07:50,880
the super shit. I feel like I did. We got that,

2072
02:07:51,000 --> 02:07:56,560
We got that, We got that, got that. Okay, we

2073
02:07:56,640 --> 02:07:59,279
get more over here on YouTube, Thoughlet's say Joshua Strove

2074
02:07:59,359 --> 02:08:02,479
into twenty Jay. I want to find an Orthodox church.

2075
02:08:02,600 --> 02:08:04,840
There's a few in my area. What do I need

2076
02:08:04,920 --> 02:08:09,279
to look for? Should I be aware of a humanism? Yeah,

2077
02:08:09,319 --> 02:08:11,159
I mean I think that's the big you know, if

2078
02:08:11,239 --> 02:08:16,960
he's if the priest seems you know, skittlesy or whatever,

2079
02:08:18,079 --> 02:08:20,000
just go to the other one. But I always tell

2080
02:08:20,039 --> 02:08:23,159
people don't worry about jurisdictions if you're new to Orthodoxy,

2081
02:08:23,239 --> 02:08:26,000
because it's not really a thing you have to worry

2082
02:08:26,039 --> 02:08:29,680
that much about. Like, if you're new, what you want

2083
02:08:29,720 --> 02:08:32,640
to do is check all the churches in your area

2084
02:08:32,960 --> 02:08:34,720
and find the one that's the best fit for you

2085
02:08:35,000 --> 02:08:38,239
based on the priest and the people there, because that's

2086
02:08:38,279 --> 02:08:41,680
going to be your family. So don't worry about internet

2087
02:08:42,520 --> 02:08:47,239
drama or whatever unless it's something like really you know big,

2088
02:08:47,920 --> 02:08:50,119
like I would stay away from LP to forests. He's

2089
02:08:50,159 --> 02:08:54,479
a notorious you know, marches with BLM people. I mean,

2090
02:08:54,520 --> 02:09:01,880
he's bad news. But don't worry about jurisdictions. Jason T.

2091
02:09:02,039 --> 02:09:05,319
Five bucks, Thank you so much. Theology explore two dollars

2092
02:09:06,399 --> 02:09:10,439
Hollywood requesting is from a reform background. Okay, I'll pull

2093
02:09:10,520 --> 02:09:16,399
him up if he's still there. Hey, Jamie, could you

2094
02:09:16,479 --> 02:09:21,359
make me an espresso? Thank you appreciate it. What's up man?

2095
02:09:21,399 --> 02:09:30,920
You know I'm mute? Do you turn your mic on?

2096
02:09:35,039 --> 02:09:35,479
Speaker 7: I think.

2097
02:09:38,760 --> 02:09:54,399
Speaker 9: Hollywood? What's up date? Leo? Leo DiCaprio, Thomas b How

2098
02:09:54,439 --> 02:09:59,159
are bishops that allow contraception or chrismate those who aren't

2099
02:09:59,279 --> 02:10:03,239
triple and is to be reviewed? Hey?

2100
02:10:06,520 --> 02:10:09,000
Speaker 4: Yeah, sorry, So I have a question. I don't know

2101
02:10:09,000 --> 02:10:10,319
if it's properate to stream.

2102
02:10:10,119 --> 02:10:15,279
Speaker 26: Or not, but I was basically asking, so, with the transcendental.

2103
02:10:14,800 --> 02:10:16,199
Speaker 4: Argument, how did you make the jump from that?

2104
02:10:18,920 --> 02:10:21,720
Speaker 21: I have a stream on still, how did you get

2105
02:10:21,720 --> 02:10:23,960
a jump from that to Christianity in the Bible?

2106
02:10:26,000 --> 02:10:29,039
Speaker 9: Because the argument is an argument for an entire worldview

2107
02:10:29,079 --> 02:10:32,880
that includes a lot of metaphysical beliefs and ethical beliefs,

2108
02:10:33,000 --> 02:10:35,960
And the argument is that the Christian worldview also provides

2109
02:10:36,039 --> 02:10:39,079
the toolkit and the grounding for those metaphysical beliefs and

2110
02:10:39,119 --> 02:10:39,880
ethical beliefs.

2111
02:10:43,279 --> 02:10:44,720
Speaker 14: Okay, yeah, this is a question.

2112
02:10:44,800 --> 02:10:46,600
Speaker 2: Really, I was going to debate something else, but.

2113
02:10:47,520 --> 02:10:51,159
Speaker 9: What's the other? So I'll get out? Thanks, what's the

2114
02:10:51,199 --> 02:10:51,920
other topic? You want?

2115
02:10:51,960 --> 02:10:53,399
Speaker 4: But to that? No?

2116
02:10:53,680 --> 02:10:54,119
Speaker 7: He left?

2117
02:10:54,760 --> 02:11:02,600
Speaker 9: Okay, t K breaks five solas? Where's that guy? Is

2118
02:11:02,640 --> 02:11:06,279
that that guy that's posting the trail of blood stupid

2119
02:11:06,319 --> 02:11:15,880
stuff on the on Twitter. Oh my gosh, I've been

2120
02:11:15,920 --> 02:11:18,159
asking that guy to come to Baate for months. Where's

2121
02:11:18,159 --> 02:11:21,039
he at? Come on, dude, where are you at? Here's

2122
02:11:21,079 --> 02:11:24,079
the here calling right here?

2123
02:11:24,119 --> 02:11:24,279
Speaker 4: Man?

2124
02:11:28,239 --> 02:11:31,479
Speaker 9: Is he five solas or five the chad solas? I

2125
02:11:31,560 --> 02:11:38,199
forget this guy's name. It's like, t K, what's up?

2126
02:11:38,239 --> 02:11:38,359
Speaker 11: Man?

2127
02:11:38,359 --> 02:11:38,760
Speaker 9: I'm mute?

2128
02:11:46,359 --> 02:11:46,840
Speaker 4: Hey, what's up?

2129
02:11:46,880 --> 02:11:47,319
Speaker 12: Can you hear me?

2130
02:11:47,439 --> 02:11:47,560
Speaker 11: Yes?

2131
02:11:47,640 --> 02:11:47,760
Speaker 9: Sir?

2132
02:11:49,000 --> 02:11:49,760
Speaker 4: Hey, how's it going?

2133
02:11:50,720 --> 02:11:51,439
Speaker 9: What's on your mind?

2134
02:11:51,479 --> 02:11:54,920
Speaker 4: I'm new to the channel. I just tuned in.

2135
02:11:55,640 --> 02:12:03,079
Speaker 27: I saw the tag protestansm Protestantism is false, prove me wrong?

2136
02:12:05,159 --> 02:12:07,560
Speaker 4: So and then I heard you say something about your

2137
02:12:07,600 --> 02:12:08,880
being like orthodox.

2138
02:12:09,239 --> 02:12:10,520
Speaker 9: Yeah, so.

2139
02:12:12,319 --> 02:12:15,479
Speaker 4: Do you think that Orthodoxy is like the one true Church?

2140
02:12:15,880 --> 02:12:16,039
Speaker 9: Yes?

2141
02:12:17,239 --> 02:12:19,159
Speaker 4: Okay, yeah.

2142
02:12:19,960 --> 02:12:24,039
Speaker 27: Scripture would argue that I don't need to argue that,

2143
02:12:24,119 --> 02:12:27,680
because Scripture argues that for me. Jesus himself says that

2144
02:12:28,600 --> 02:12:33,000
he's against sectarianism, and I can tell you the verses.

2145
02:12:32,720 --> 02:12:37,640
Speaker 9: Two, right, But this is prior to that, because I

2146
02:12:37,680 --> 02:12:40,079
would argue that the Orthodox Church is who put that

2147
02:12:40,199 --> 02:12:43,399
Bible together. So the reason that he's against sectarianism is

2148
02:12:43,439 --> 02:12:46,399
because he set up a College of Apostles who have

2149
02:12:46,560 --> 02:12:50,159
successors who are his church. So anyone who's not the

2150
02:12:50,279 --> 02:12:52,920
Orthodox Church is the sectarians that you're talking about.

2151
02:12:54,119 --> 02:12:58,119
Speaker 28: Yeah, I'm sure you've had this argument before, but what

2152
02:12:58,279 --> 02:13:00,920
you just said is like self defeating because you just

2153
02:13:01,000 --> 02:13:03,399
said that if they were the ones that set up

2154
02:13:03,479 --> 02:13:07,119
the Bible, and in what is in the Bible is

2155
02:13:07,760 --> 02:13:10,319
the most true, which I believe it to be the

2156
02:13:10,399 --> 02:13:15,079
most true, then sectarianism is against Jesus' will?

2157
02:13:16,039 --> 02:13:17,800
Speaker 9: Correct, right? I agree?

2158
02:13:18,079 --> 02:13:20,640
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, So I don't know why you're like trying

2159
02:13:20,680 --> 02:13:21,439
to be divisive.

2160
02:13:22,359 --> 02:13:24,760
Speaker 9: Well, I'm not being divisive because I'm calling people to

2161
02:13:24,920 --> 02:13:30,000
the unity of the same church that existed in the first, second, third, fourth, fifth, sixth, seventh,

2162
02:13:30,039 --> 02:13:32,520
eighth centuries. So we believe the same as those people.

2163
02:13:33,079 --> 02:13:36,199
That's the identical beliefs in church that we have today.

2164
02:13:36,680 --> 02:13:40,239
So that shows that whatever Protestant sect you're in is

2165
02:13:40,319 --> 02:13:41,640
the actual sectarianism.

2166
02:13:42,720 --> 02:13:46,319
Speaker 4: I never said I was in one. In what a

2167
02:13:46,439 --> 02:13:47,439
Protestant sect?

2168
02:13:48,079 --> 02:13:49,039
Speaker 9: Okay, what are you in?

2169
02:13:50,319 --> 02:13:51,560
Speaker 4: I just follow the Bible?

2170
02:13:52,119 --> 02:13:55,399
Speaker 9: Wells that doesn't exist. That's even worse, because that's worse

2171
02:13:55,479 --> 02:13:58,800
than a sectarian church that's you alone, that doesn't exist.

2172
02:14:02,119 --> 02:14:02,920
Speaker 4: It does exist.

2173
02:14:03,439 --> 02:14:07,359
Speaker 27: There's Bible, there's Bible churches. You can be a follower

2174
02:14:07,439 --> 02:14:10,119
of Christ and not belong to specific sect.

2175
02:14:12,239 --> 02:14:17,880
Speaker 9: Jesus Jesus established. Jesus established a church, and that church.

2176
02:14:18,199 --> 02:14:20,560
If you look at Paul's epistles first and second, Timothy

2177
02:14:21,239 --> 02:14:24,560
is based around. In that case at Ephesus, the person

2178
02:14:24,640 --> 02:14:26,680
that Paul laid his hands on, who is Timothy. And

2179
02:14:26,720 --> 02:14:30,239
then Paul tells Timothy, don't pass on this apostolic deposit

2180
02:14:30,439 --> 02:14:33,279
without laying hands on somebody who you know is approved,

2181
02:14:33,359 --> 02:14:35,640
because it gives the gift of the Holy Spirit. That's

2182
02:14:36,000 --> 02:14:41,359
apostolic succession. It mirrors the example in numbers eleven where

2183
02:14:41,399 --> 02:14:44,720
Moses lays hands on the elders to give them authority

2184
02:14:44,840 --> 02:14:47,119
and the spirit that Moses had, so the Holy Spirit

2185
02:14:47,159 --> 02:14:50,640
goes from Moses to the seventy elders. That parallels the

2186
02:14:50,800 --> 02:14:55,039
apostolic succession of the New Testament, particularly enacts one where

2187
02:14:55,079 --> 02:14:58,560
you have a replacement for Judas, and it says that

2188
02:14:58,880 --> 02:15:03,479
replaced his office or episcopate. That's episcopal church government. And

2189
02:15:03,600 --> 02:15:05,560
that's why when I'm when I'm telling you, if you

2190
02:15:05,640 --> 02:15:08,399
look at the church in the first, second, third, fourth, fifth,

2191
02:15:08,520 --> 02:15:13,560
sixth seventh centuries. They don't teach evangelical do it yourself

2192
02:15:13,680 --> 02:15:17,239
Bible church stuff. They believe in what the Orthodox Church teaches.

2193
02:15:17,399 --> 02:15:18,800
So you're the sectarian.

2194
02:15:21,359 --> 02:15:24,279
Speaker 28: I don't believe so, because it's very clear in the

2195
02:15:24,720 --> 02:15:29,479
even in the Apostles Creeds says they believe in the One.

2196
02:15:30,920 --> 02:15:33,560
Speaker 4: Catholic Church. What what do you think Catholic means?

2197
02:15:33,720 --> 02:15:36,680
Speaker 9: So we don't follow the Apostles creed? That's pseudonymous, that's

2198
02:15:36,720 --> 02:15:40,119
a Western creed. You're talking about the nice you constant

2199
02:15:40,159 --> 02:15:44,760
apolican Constantapolitan creed. It says one Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.

2200
02:15:44,840 --> 02:15:49,039
That's the four marks? Does your strip mall Bible Church?

2201
02:15:49,319 --> 02:15:49,880
The foremarts?

2202
02:15:50,960 --> 02:15:52,199
Speaker 4: But you didn't answer my question.

2203
02:15:52,960 --> 02:15:56,079
Speaker 9: I said, one Holy Catholic Episolic, the four Marks, that's

2204
02:15:56,119 --> 02:15:57,319
what's necessary for the church.

2205
02:15:58,760 --> 02:16:00,720
Speaker 4: No, I asked you, what is Catholic mean?

2206
02:16:01,520 --> 02:16:05,640
Speaker 9: Fullness of truth? According to the fathers who Yes, it does,

2207
02:16:05,800 --> 02:16:08,720
according to the fathers who composed that. That's what they

2208
02:16:08,800 --> 02:16:09,279
interpret it.

2209
02:16:09,319 --> 02:16:09,479
Speaker 7: To me.

2210
02:16:10,399 --> 02:16:11,600
Speaker 4: No, it means universal.

2211
02:16:11,840 --> 02:16:14,479
Speaker 9: It means in the Orthodox Church, not just universality in

2212
02:16:14,560 --> 02:16:17,600
terms of numbers. Because Roman Catholics make this argument that

2213
02:16:17,680 --> 02:16:20,359
it means numbers in terms of universality. That's why I'm

2214
02:16:20,439 --> 02:16:25,520
qualifying it with fullness of truth. That's what it means

2215
02:16:25,560 --> 02:16:28,640
in the Orthodox Church. So it can't be numbers. Let

2216
02:16:28,680 --> 02:16:31,720
me give an example why in the fourth century the

2217
02:16:31,800 --> 02:16:36,079
majority of the church was aryan or semi arian. So

2218
02:16:36,280 --> 02:16:39,559
you can't identify it with a large number of people

2219
02:16:40,280 --> 02:16:41,520
the fullness.

2220
02:16:41,479 --> 02:16:45,000
Speaker 4: You're conflating like a heresy with Yeah.

2221
02:16:45,479 --> 02:16:48,159
Speaker 9: No, I'm not. I know this subject matter very well.

2222
02:16:48,200 --> 02:16:49,760
I'm not conflating anything. I'm telling you.

2223
02:16:50,200 --> 02:16:52,079
Speaker 4: Because you've had these debates.

2224
02:16:51,799 --> 02:16:54,399
Speaker 9: Over and no, I've studied this for twenty plus years.

2225
02:16:54,520 --> 02:16:55,319
It's not just abase.

2226
02:16:56,280 --> 02:17:00,639
Speaker 28: What you're having is willful ignorance, like you're choosing to

2227
02:17:00,879 --> 02:17:04,280
disregard when people have told you in the past that

2228
02:17:04,559 --> 02:17:06,159
Catholic means universal.

2229
02:17:06,319 --> 02:17:09,239
Speaker 9: No, I know what the word itself means. I'm giving

2230
02:17:09,280 --> 02:17:13,200
you the Orthodox explanation that it's not just a universality

2231
02:17:13,360 --> 02:17:16,360
sense of numbers. I'm giving you a deeper sense that

2232
02:17:16,479 --> 02:17:19,280
the Orthodox theological tradition gives it. I know that I

2233
02:17:19,360 --> 02:17:21,680
know what universality is. I learned this stuff twenty five

2234
02:17:21,760 --> 02:17:26,799
years ago. Dude, yea, yeah, yeah, So why are you

2235
02:17:26,879 --> 02:17:30,639
mocking me because of Your condescension and condescending attitude is

2236
02:17:30,719 --> 02:17:31,479
getting on my nerves.

2237
02:17:31,639 --> 02:17:32,959
Speaker 4: I'm not being condescend you are.

2238
02:17:33,159 --> 02:17:35,559
Speaker 9: You're talking about that people have told me this in

2239
02:17:35,600 --> 02:17:38,000
the past, and I wasn't rebuked properly and I didn't

2240
02:17:38,079 --> 02:17:40,040
listen to them. What are you even talking about.

2241
02:17:40,840 --> 02:17:41,760
Speaker 4: I'm not rebuking you.

2242
02:17:42,040 --> 02:17:44,479
Speaker 9: You said people in the past told me this, and

2243
02:17:44,600 --> 02:17:46,920
I'm being arrogant and I need to be rebuked. That's

2244
02:17:46,959 --> 02:17:50,799
what you're saying. Not being passive aggressive. Come on, get

2245
02:17:50,840 --> 02:17:51,959
to your point. What's your argument.

2246
02:17:52,799 --> 02:17:54,319
Speaker 4: I'm not being passive aggressive either.

2247
02:17:54,840 --> 02:17:59,000
Speaker 9: One Holy Catholic Apostolic does not mean stripball Bible church

2248
02:17:59,159 --> 02:17:59,760
like you believe.

2249
02:18:02,520 --> 02:18:03,959
Speaker 4: Okay, that's that's just rude.

2250
02:18:05,920 --> 02:18:10,079
Speaker 9: Okay, it's rude. Fun, It doesn't matter. What's your argument.

2251
02:18:10,799 --> 02:18:12,440
Speaker 4: See, what you're doing is condescending.

2252
02:18:12,520 --> 02:18:14,239
Speaker 9: Stop doing the two quote now you want to do it.

2253
02:18:14,559 --> 02:18:16,760
Stop telling policing. Get to the argument.

2254
02:18:16,799 --> 02:18:17,159
Speaker 4: This is so.

2255
02:18:19,280 --> 02:18:21,879
Speaker 9: Like you said, you belong to your own thing at

2256
02:18:21,879 --> 02:18:24,639
a Bible church. That's what strip mall Bible churches are.

2257
02:18:24,959 --> 02:18:27,159
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's that's like super condescending.

2258
02:18:27,399 --> 02:18:29,440
Speaker 9: So you know, I feel like, well, you're making bad

2259
02:18:29,520 --> 02:18:32,559
arguments because you started out wanting to argue that they

2260
02:18:33,120 --> 02:18:33,959
stop interrupting.

2261
02:18:34,319 --> 02:18:36,600
Speaker 4: Is the Bible making bad arguments? Because I already told

2262
02:18:36,600 --> 02:18:38,440
you that it's the Bible that No, it's not.

2263
02:18:39,000 --> 02:18:40,959
Speaker 9: You don't know. How do you have the right How

2264
02:18:40,959 --> 02:18:42,079
do you know you have the right Bible?

2265
02:18:44,000 --> 02:18:45,520
Speaker 4: How do you know you have the right Bible?

2266
02:18:45,559 --> 02:18:47,520
Speaker 9: I can look to the Orthodox I can look to

2267
02:18:47,559 --> 02:18:50,479
the Orthodox tradition and the canons of the Apostles that

2268
02:18:50,520 --> 02:18:51,319
we pulled up earlier.

2269
02:18:52,079 --> 02:18:54,120
Speaker 4: Mm hmmm. And so they tell you it's like the

2270
02:18:54,239 --> 02:18:55,920
King James or something.

2271
02:18:56,200 --> 02:18:59,600
Speaker 9: The King James, the Church Fathers. No, the canons of

2272
02:18:59,600 --> 02:19:02,319
the appoll muscles are like the three hundreds. That's not

2273
02:19:02,360 --> 02:19:05,079
going to be the King James. Goofas I know.

2274
02:19:05,200 --> 02:19:05,959
Speaker 4: I was choking.

2275
02:19:06,120 --> 02:19:08,559
Speaker 9: No, no, you didn't know what we're talking about. I'm

2276
02:19:08,559 --> 02:19:10,040
talking about Apostolic Canon eighty five.

2277
02:19:10,120 --> 02:19:16,120
Speaker 4: You know what that is? The Apostolic Canon eighty five?

2278
02:19:16,280 --> 02:19:18,840
Speaker 9: No, I don't know, right, So you are joking, you

2279
02:19:18,920 --> 02:19:19,479
have no idea?

2280
02:19:21,200 --> 02:19:22,760
Speaker 4: I was joking about the King James thing.

2281
02:19:23,159 --> 02:19:24,760
Speaker 9: Okay, how do you know that you have the right

2282
02:19:24,840 --> 02:19:25,719
Protestant Bible?

2283
02:19:27,920 --> 02:19:29,479
Speaker 4: Okay, how do you know that I'm a Protestant.

2284
02:19:29,479 --> 02:19:32,479
Speaker 9: That's a too My gosh, this is too stupid. We're done.

2285
02:19:33,719 --> 02:19:33,959
Speaker 4: Bye.

2286
02:19:35,399 --> 02:19:53,040
Speaker 9: That was the dumbest guy I've ever talked to. Nick. Nick. Yeah,

2287
02:19:57,280 --> 02:20:00,040
let's all Jay. Yeah, my bad. I don't know what

2288
02:20:00,159 --> 02:20:00,959
happened earlier.

2289
02:20:02,680 --> 02:20:05,120
Speaker 4: Because I got booted out as soon as I answered

2290
02:20:05,360 --> 02:20:06,239
I asked my question.

2291
02:20:07,079 --> 02:20:12,639
Speaker 14: But all right, can I want to go? I want

2292
02:20:12,639 --> 02:20:12,959
to ask the.

2293
02:20:13,040 --> 02:20:16,559
Speaker 9: Question real quick, okay, and make it quick. Come on, yeah,

2294
02:20:18,719 --> 02:20:22,319
go real quick.

2295
02:20:22,360 --> 02:20:23,920
Speaker 24: I know I started as a Protestant, and I'm looking

2296
02:20:23,920 --> 02:20:26,799
into the Orthodox Faith because I finally looked into early

2297
02:20:26,920 --> 02:20:27,719
Church history.

2298
02:20:27,520 --> 02:20:31,120
Speaker 4: And saw my beliefs like fold before my eyes. So

2299
02:20:31,319 --> 02:20:32,440
I'm in shocked right now.

2300
02:20:32,600 --> 02:20:36,000
Speaker 24: But I kind of want to ask, real quick, if

2301
02:20:36,040 --> 02:20:38,719
you can start all over in your journey and and

2302
02:20:38,840 --> 02:20:39,879
learn Orthodox faith.

2303
02:20:39,920 --> 02:20:42,559
Speaker 4: But what would you do from the very beginning. You

2304
02:20:42,600 --> 02:20:44,600
don't have to go on like a long like like

2305
02:20:44,879 --> 02:20:46,159
right away read the Early Church.

2306
02:20:46,200 --> 02:20:50,280
Speaker 9: Father'll take my time and not rush into it. Start

2307
02:20:50,360 --> 02:20:52,440
by reading Athanacious. Start by reading