1 00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:03,319 Speaker 1: Welcome to thrilling Threads, where we unpack the sources on 2 00:00:03,359 --> 00:00:05,759 complex topics and give you what you need to be 3 00:00:06,000 --> 00:00:07,559 well thoroughly informed. 4 00:00:07,879 --> 00:00:11,960 Speaker 2: And today we are pulling back the curtain on one 5 00:00:11,960 --> 00:00:16,160 of the most secretive, most critical, and honestly least understood 6 00:00:16,640 --> 00:00:19,000 military assets on the entire planet. 7 00:00:19,079 --> 00:00:22,280 Speaker 1: It's a surveillance space so remote and so central to 8 00:00:22,320 --> 00:00:25,879 global conflict that it's often called Australia's Area fifty one. 9 00:00:25,960 --> 00:00:28,679 Speaker 2: We're talking about the Joint Defense Facility Pine Gap. It's 10 00:00:28,719 --> 00:00:33,039 HISS installation, nestled about eighteen kilometers outside of Alice Springs 11 00:00:33,119 --> 00:00:36,320 or part way right in the heart of the Northern Territory. 12 00:00:36,439 --> 00:00:38,600 Speaker 1: Yeah. And if you were to just you know, drive 13 00:00:38,679 --> 00:00:41,000 down the access road Hat Road, you wouldn't get a 14 00:00:41,000 --> 00:00:42,039 friendly welcome. 15 00:00:41,759 --> 00:00:44,039 Speaker 2: No, not at all. You'd get these fiercely worded. 16 00:00:43,679 --> 00:00:46,280 Speaker 1: Signs, unambiguous signs. Right, they just say turn around now 17 00:00:46,399 --> 00:00:48,119 and absolutely no photography. 18 00:00:48,320 --> 00:00:51,000 Speaker 2: And that road, that's the gateway. It's the entrance to 19 00:00:51,079 --> 00:00:54,759 the operational pulse of modern US intelligence. And this is 20 00:00:54,759 --> 00:00:57,759 the crucial part. It's drone warfare program. 21 00:00:57,840 --> 00:01:00,359 Speaker 1: So our mission today is pretty clear. We need to 22 00:01:00,399 --> 00:01:04,439 go beyond the secrecy and really unpack what this place does, 23 00:01:04,519 --> 00:01:09,400 its function, its shadowy history, and its massive role in 24 00:01:09,439 --> 00:01:10,120 the world today. 25 00:01:10,200 --> 00:01:12,879 Speaker 2: We have to follow the thread that connects this remote 26 00:01:12,879 --> 00:01:17,359 desert facility to I mean everything from tracking ballistic missiles 27 00:01:17,599 --> 00:01:20,599 to directing lethal drone strikes, and it even gets into 28 00:01:20,599 --> 00:01:22,799 the highest levels of global political intrigue. 29 00:01:22,879 --> 00:01:25,079 Speaker 1: The origin story alone is straight out of a Cold 30 00:01:25,120 --> 00:01:26,200 War thriller. 31 00:01:26,000 --> 00:01:28,760 Speaker 2: It really is. The base was formally established in nineteen 32 00:01:28,760 --> 00:01:31,560 sixty six, became operational in nineteen seventy. 33 00:01:31,239 --> 00:01:35,239 Speaker 1: And the story they told the Australian public was intentionally blanned. 34 00:01:35,000 --> 00:01:38,879 Speaker 2: Oh completely. It was marketed as this perfectly innocent space 35 00:01:39,000 --> 00:01:42,400 research facility. The official name was the Joint Defense Space 36 00:01:42,439 --> 00:01:43,680 Research Facility. 37 00:01:43,319 --> 00:01:47,200 Speaker 1: A space research facility, but the truth was quite a bit. 38 00:01:47,120 --> 00:01:49,920 Speaker 2: Different, immediately different. The sources we have confirmed that from 39 00:01:49,959 --> 00:01:52,640 the absolute beginning, from the moment it was conceived, it 40 00:01:52,680 --> 00:01:55,799 was covertly run by the CIA. So not science, not 41 00:01:55,920 --> 00:02:00,680 peaceful scientific discovery. No, it's real, highly classified mission was 42 00:02:00,719 --> 00:02:04,000 to monitor the Soviet Union's missile and weapons programs. They 43 00:02:04,040 --> 00:02:06,480 were trying to collect telemetry data during the height of 44 00:02:06,480 --> 00:02:08,039 the nuclear standoff. 45 00:02:07,680 --> 00:02:12,240 Speaker 1: So a giant, super sensitive CIA listening post just disguised 46 00:02:12,240 --> 00:02:14,840 as a science lab hidden away from the world, and. 47 00:02:14,800 --> 00:02:17,599 Speaker 2: That cover story, as you can imagine, it didn't last 48 00:02:17,919 --> 00:02:23,599 thanks to whistleblowers, most notably Edward Snowden. Leaked documents confirmed 49 00:02:23,639 --> 00:02:27,199 what analysts has suspected for decades, which is that Pine 50 00:02:27,240 --> 00:02:31,000 Gap is of criticality. It is America's single most valuable 51 00:02:31,039 --> 00:02:34,919 intelligence site outside of US soil. It's a key cog 52 00:02:35,080 --> 00:02:37,560 in the machine of global real time surveillance. 53 00:02:37,879 --> 00:02:41,680 Speaker 1: That phrase right there, most valuable intelligence site outside US soil. 54 00:02:41,840 --> 00:02:43,439 That's what we really need to focus on. 55 00:02:43,520 --> 00:02:46,240 Speaker 2: And you can see it. The sheer physical growth of 56 00:02:46,240 --> 00:02:50,840 the facility is the tangible, indisputable evidence of its escalating value. 57 00:02:51,400 --> 00:02:52,879 And you know it's shifting mission. 58 00:02:52,919 --> 00:02:55,840 Speaker 1: Okay, let's unpack that physical structure, because this facility is 59 00:02:55,879 --> 00:02:59,759 like a living, growing monument to America's global intelligence ambition. 60 00:03:00,280 --> 00:03:03,120 Speaker 2: So when it opened in nineteen seventy, the main operations 61 00:03:03,120 --> 00:03:07,039 building was relatively modest. It was about four thousand square 62 00:03:07,120 --> 00:03:08,439 meters of floor space. 63 00:03:08,360 --> 00:03:11,520 Speaker 1: Almost quoint compared to today. If you look at satellite 64 00:03:11,560 --> 00:03:15,120 imagery now, that original size is well, it's almost laughable. 65 00:03:15,280 --> 00:03:19,479 Speaker 2: It's completely dwarfed. Intelligence experts noted that by nineteen ninety nine, 66 00:03:19,520 --> 00:03:21,639 so a few decades in it had already grown to 67 00:03:21,680 --> 00:03:25,240 about eighteen antennas and today. Fast forward to today, and 68 00:03:25,319 --> 00:03:28,759 the compound houses a staggering thirty eight ray domes. 69 00:03:28,879 --> 00:03:32,159 Speaker 1: Those are the big white golf ball looking things for exactly. 70 00:03:31,919 --> 00:03:34,879 Speaker 2: Those iconic white domes that protect the satellite dishes from 71 00:03:34,919 --> 00:03:38,400 the the harsh desert environment and also from prying eyes. 72 00:03:38,759 --> 00:03:42,319 Speaker 1: The internal expansion is what really gets me. Our sources 73 00:03:42,360 --> 00:03:44,680 say the total floor space of the two main operation 74 00:03:44,840 --> 00:03:48,120 buildings has increased fivefold, fivefold. 75 00:03:48,280 --> 00:03:50,560 Speaker 2: It's now well over twenty thousand square meters. 76 00:03:50,599 --> 00:03:52,120 Speaker 1: To give people a sense of that scale, let's try 77 00:03:52,120 --> 00:03:54,879 an analogy. If you took the floor area of just 78 00:03:54,960 --> 00:03:57,479 those two main buildings and laid it out, you'd be 79 00:03:57,520 --> 00:04:00,360 looking at a space larger than the entire place field 80 00:04:00,360 --> 00:04:02,560 of the Melbourne Cricket Ground, the mcg. 81 00:04:02,520 --> 00:04:07,039 Speaker 2: WOW, or for our American listeners, it's comparable to more 82 00:04:07,080 --> 00:04:10,080 than three and a half full sized American football fields. 83 00:04:10,680 --> 00:04:14,400 This is an enormous high tech city, operating in total 84 00:04:14,400 --> 00:04:19,160 isolation and just constantly expanding to meet global intelligence needs. 85 00:04:19,439 --> 00:04:21,480 Speaker 1: And this is where the story gets really compelling. The 86 00:04:21,600 --> 00:04:23,439 timeline of that growth. 87 00:04:23,319 --> 00:04:26,240 Speaker 2: Right, because you would think logically that the big construction 88 00:04:26,319 --> 00:04:28,360 boom happened during the Cold War when. 89 00:04:28,199 --> 00:04:30,399 Speaker 1: The Soviet threat was at its peak, of course, but the. 90 00:04:30,399 --> 00:04:35,519 Speaker 2: Data reveals this, this intriguing paradox, The base's biggest, most 91 00:04:35,560 --> 00:04:39,519 significant expansion happened after the Cold War was officially over. 92 00:04:39,680 --> 00:04:42,759 Speaker 1: That's fascinating. So its original purpose was fading away, but 93 00:04:42,839 --> 00:04:44,759 the base itself was getting bigger and bigger. 94 00:04:44,839 --> 00:04:47,800 Speaker 2: Exactly that post Cold War expansion. You can really see 95 00:04:47,800 --> 00:04:50,519 it through the nineties and early two thousands. It signals 96 00:04:50,560 --> 00:04:52,360 a huge pivot in the base's mission. 97 00:04:52,360 --> 00:04:55,519 Speaker 1: The old job of listening to Soviet missile telemetry was gone. 98 00:04:55,600 --> 00:04:59,639 Speaker 2: It was diminishing. Yeah, so the facility expanded dramatically to 99 00:04:59,720 --> 00:05:03,319 read wrecked its capabilities. It moved its focus away from 100 00:05:03,319 --> 00:05:07,120 the former Soviet Union and toward intercepting weapons and communications 101 00:05:07,160 --> 00:05:09,600 signals from all across Asia. 102 00:05:09,079 --> 00:05:12,079 Speaker 1: So countries like China and North Korea precisely. 103 00:05:12,519 --> 00:05:15,560 Speaker 2: And then this expansion was just massively accelerated. After nine 104 00:05:15,600 --> 00:05:19,279 to eleven, the focus shifted to supporting the global War 105 00:05:19,319 --> 00:05:22,399 on Terror, so it needed real time intelligence for the 106 00:05:22,399 --> 00:05:24,079 wars in Afghanistan and Iraq. 107 00:05:24,360 --> 00:05:27,160 Speaker 1: It went from a strategic listening post to a tactical 108 00:05:27,199 --> 00:05:29,079 surveillance hub almost overnight. 109 00:05:29,279 --> 00:05:31,759 Speaker 2: And you can't have that kind of global reach in isolation. 110 00:05:32,199 --> 00:05:36,480 It's all facilitated through this monumental intelligence sharing structure that 111 00:05:36,519 --> 00:05:37,959 we know as the Five Eyes Network. 112 00:05:38,079 --> 00:05:40,720 Speaker 1: Right, So pine Gap is a critical node in that 113 00:05:40,959 --> 00:05:45,040 alliance that's the US, the UK, Canada, Australia and New Zealand. 114 00:05:45,120 --> 00:05:48,160 Speaker 2: And more than that, the base is a confirmed intercept 115 00:05:48,160 --> 00:05:49,800 station for the Echelon program. 116 00:05:50,279 --> 00:05:53,759 Speaker 1: Echelon, that's a name a lot of our listeners might recognize. 117 00:05:53,800 --> 00:05:58,000 It's one of the earliest examples of truly global electronic surveillance. 118 00:05:58,079 --> 00:06:00,680 Speaker 2: It's a very loaded word, for sure. It was formally 119 00:06:00,759 --> 00:06:04,120 established in nineteen seventy one the snowed In leaks, though 120 00:06:04,319 --> 00:06:08,079 they gave us crucial clarification. Echelon was actually a subprogram 121 00:06:08,160 --> 00:06:10,319 under an even bigger umbrella called Frosting. 122 00:06:10,519 --> 00:06:13,560 Speaker 1: Frosting started when pine Gap was established back in sixty six, 123 00:06:13,759 --> 00:06:14,240 that's right. 124 00:06:14,439 --> 00:06:16,519 Speaker 2: And the specific purpose of Echelon, what made it so 125 00:06:16,560 --> 00:06:20,079 powerful from pine GAP's perspective was its target, which was 126 00:06:20,439 --> 00:06:25,240 intercepting Intelsat satellite transmissions. Yeah, for decades, Intelsat was the 127 00:06:25,240 --> 00:06:30,439 world primary commercial communication satellite system. It carried a massive 128 00:06:31,000 --> 00:06:34,439 volume of commercial, diplomatic, private, I mean all sorts of 129 00:06:34,439 --> 00:06:35,439 government communications. 130 00:06:35,519 --> 00:06:38,439 Speaker 1: So we're not just talking about military radio chatter. 131 00:06:38,600 --> 00:06:42,519 Speaker 2: No, this was Echelon via Pine Gap sweeping up a massive, 132 00:06:42,680 --> 00:06:46,920 indiscriminate volume of global data. It went far beyond purely 133 00:06:46,959 --> 00:06:47,959 military targets. 134 00:06:48,040 --> 00:06:50,399 Speaker 1: The scale of this operation is just immense. But who 135 00:06:50,480 --> 00:06:54,720 is actually in charge of this sprawling facility on Australian soil. 136 00:06:55,120 --> 00:06:57,720 Speaker 2: It is run jointly, that's a requirement of the agreement, 137 00:06:57,839 --> 00:07:02,759 but the organizational structure it reflects a pretty clear US dominance. 138 00:07:02,360 --> 00:07:04,480 Speaker 1: In terms of personnel and priorities exactly. 139 00:07:04,600 --> 00:07:08,120 Speaker 2: The Australian signals direct the ASD they're involved, But the 140 00:07:08,199 --> 00:07:11,079 US presence is made up of three major intelligence services, 141 00:07:11,560 --> 00:07:15,759 the CIA, the NSA and the NRO the National Reconnaissance Office. 142 00:07:15,480 --> 00:07:17,839 Speaker 1: And the NSA provides most of the bodies on the ground. 143 00:07:17,720 --> 00:07:21,639 Speaker 2: The overwhelming majority of operational personnel, yes, which really reinforces 144 00:07:21,680 --> 00:07:24,639 its role as I mean, it's essentially the nssa's most 145 00:07:24,680 --> 00:07:26,639 critical overseas fuel station. 146 00:07:27,120 --> 00:07:29,800 Speaker 1: So even though the CIA might have provided the initial 147 00:07:29,839 --> 00:07:33,240 covert hover story and often supplies the chief of facility, 148 00:07:33,879 --> 00:07:37,040 the day to day work is NSA driven. It confirms 149 00:07:37,079 --> 00:07:39,800 that signals intelligence focus precisely. 150 00:07:40,279 --> 00:07:43,800 Speaker 2: The complexity of that partnership underlines the whole nature of 151 00:07:43,839 --> 00:07:49,319 the agreement shared responsibility, but with highly skewed operational priorities. 152 00:07:48,879 --> 00:07:51,680 Speaker 1: And the physical reality. The continuous construction, the doubling of 153 00:07:51,680 --> 00:07:55,519 the ratomes, the five fold increase in floor space, it 154 00:07:55,600 --> 00:07:57,040 all points to one thing. 155 00:07:57,079 --> 00:08:00,360 Speaker 2: That this intelligence partnership is growing exponentially and it's driven 156 00:08:00,360 --> 00:08:04,959 by US strategic needs, all leveraging Australia's unique geographical position. 157 00:08:05,199 --> 00:08:07,360 Speaker 1: Okay, speaking of geography, that lead us right to the 158 00:08:07,360 --> 00:08:10,759 next question, Why Pine Gap? I mean, why was the 159 00:08:10,839 --> 00:08:13,759 desolate center of the Australian continent chosen for a base 160 00:08:13,839 --> 00:08:15,600 with such an immense global reach. 161 00:08:16,000 --> 00:08:19,839 Speaker 2: The location gives them several critical strategic advantages. They're rooted 162 00:08:19,839 --> 00:08:22,040 in both physical security and orbital mechanics. 163 00:08:22,120 --> 00:08:23,079 Speaker 1: Let's start with security. 164 00:08:23,360 --> 00:08:27,120 Speaker 2: Okay, So the first historically was just its remoteness. Back 165 00:08:27,120 --> 00:08:31,759 in the late sixties, intelligence agencies were very worried about interception. 166 00:08:31,399 --> 00:08:32,440 Speaker 1: By spy ships. 167 00:08:32,600 --> 00:08:37,000 Speaker 2: Exactly, Soviet spy ships would linger in international waters trying 168 00:08:37,000 --> 00:08:40,679 to intercept signals being transmitted to ground stations. Pine Gap 169 00:08:40,759 --> 00:08:43,240 was simply too far inland too difficult to. 170 00:08:43,200 --> 00:08:46,759 Speaker 1: Access a physical fortress designed by isolation. 171 00:08:46,639 --> 00:08:49,679 Speaker 2: But the more critical factor is its strategic position relative 172 00:08:49,720 --> 00:08:52,720 to the equator. Its placement in central Australia allows it 173 00:08:52,759 --> 00:08:55,799 to be the primary ground control station for spy satellites, 174 00:08:55,840 --> 00:08:57,480 passing over one third of the globe. 175 00:08:57,559 --> 00:08:59,960 Speaker 1: One third of the entire globe. What does that cover. 176 00:09:00,320 --> 00:09:05,200 Speaker 2: That vast coverage area includes key geopolitical players and hotspots China, 177 00:09:05,399 --> 00:09:07,799 the Asian parts of Russia, and the critical theaters in 178 00:09:07,840 --> 00:09:11,159 the Middle East. It's uniquely situated to watch all three 179 00:09:11,159 --> 00:09:12,600 major areas at the same time. 180 00:09:12,759 --> 00:09:16,559 Speaker 1: Let's get into the technology that makes this continuous surveillance possible. 181 00:09:16,840 --> 00:09:19,679 The core mission of pine Gap revolves around being the 182 00:09:19,679 --> 00:09:22,480 ground station for a specific kind of satellite right. 183 00:09:22,639 --> 00:09:25,799 Speaker 2: Yes, the control center and the principal downlink for US 184 00:09:26,039 --> 00:09:30,720 signal intelligence satellites. The code name is Rainfall, but they're 185 00:09:30,720 --> 00:09:32,879 better known as the Advanced Rayan satellites. 186 00:09:33,080 --> 00:09:35,600 Speaker 1: And the key to these satellites is their orbit, their 187 00:09:35,679 --> 00:09:37,000 geosynchronous Yes. 188 00:09:37,279 --> 00:09:40,919 Speaker 2: And to visualize this, just imagine the Earth's spinning. These 189 00:09:40,960 --> 00:09:44,639 satellites are positioned incredibly high, up over twenty thousand miles 190 00:09:45,240 --> 00:09:48,759 or about thirty five thousand, seven eighty six kilometers above 191 00:09:48,799 --> 00:09:49,799 the surface. 192 00:09:49,519 --> 00:09:53,120 Speaker 1: And at that exact altitude, the satellite's speed matches the 193 00:09:53,159 --> 00:09:54,279 Earth's rotation. 194 00:09:54,080 --> 00:09:57,480 Speaker 2: Precisely, which means a satellite appears to just hang there, 195 00:09:57,799 --> 00:10:00,960 fixed above a specific point on the place in its surface, which. 196 00:10:00,840 --> 00:10:04,440 Speaker 1: Allows for continuous, unbroken surveillance coverage over their assigned patch 197 00:10:04,440 --> 00:10:05,000 to the planet. 198 00:10:05,000 --> 00:10:07,759 Speaker 2: They're always listening, always fixed on their area of interest, 199 00:10:07,799 --> 00:10:10,759 and constantly downlinking massive amounts of data to the Pine 200 00:10:10,759 --> 00:10:11,840 Gap dishes down below. 201 00:10:11,919 --> 00:10:15,440 Speaker 1: And this coverage is just continental in scope. The Snowden 202 00:10:15,519 --> 00:10:19,759 documents revealed the truly astronomical reach through specific mission data. 203 00:10:19,960 --> 00:10:22,159 Speaker 2: That's right, we have details on Mission seventy six hundred 204 00:10:22,240 --> 00:10:24,320 or M seventy six hundred. It was documented in two 205 00:10:24,320 --> 00:10:26,440 thousand and five that mission used at least two of 206 00:10:26,480 --> 00:10:28,879 these geosecretist satellites operating at the same time. 207 00:10:28,960 --> 00:10:29,759 Speaker 1: And what did they cover. 208 00:10:30,120 --> 00:10:33,440 Speaker 2: They provided a continuous high fidelity coverage of the majority 209 00:10:33,440 --> 00:10:36,639 of the Eurasian land mass in Africa. It extended from 210 00:10:36,720 --> 00:10:39,240 western Europe all the way across Asia. 211 00:10:39,320 --> 00:10:43,840 Speaker 1: That's effectively monitoring communications and signal emitters across half the 212 00:10:43,840 --> 00:10:46,480 world's major population centers and military hot. 213 00:10:46,320 --> 00:10:50,080 Speaker 2: Zones, but the US strategic demand didn't stop there. Then 214 00:10:50,159 --> 00:10:53,519 came Mission eighty three hundred M eighty three hundred, which 215 00:10:53,559 --> 00:10:54,399 was the upgrade. 216 00:10:54,440 --> 00:10:55,279 Speaker 1: What did that involve? 217 00:10:55,559 --> 00:10:59,759 Speaker 2: It involved a four satellite constellation and that constellation expanded 218 00:10:59,759 --> 00:11:03,320 coverage to an even more enormous swath of the globe 219 00:11:03,440 --> 00:11:07,200 the former Soviet Union, China, South Asia, East Asia, the 220 00:11:07,200 --> 00:11:10,320 Middle East, Eastern Europe, and even territories out into the 221 00:11:10,360 --> 00:11:11,240 Atlantic Ocean. 222 00:11:11,279 --> 00:11:13,799 Speaker 1: And Pine Gap is the only ground station with the 223 00:11:13,879 --> 00:11:16,720 optimal position to handle all of that data in real time. 224 00:11:16,840 --> 00:11:21,840 Speaker 2: It's downloading, analyzing, and processing strategic, tactical, political, and economic 225 00:11:21,840 --> 00:11:25,039 communications signals across that entire monumental region. 226 00:11:25,240 --> 00:11:27,720 Speaker 1: So beyond just listening, let's get specific about the types 227 00:11:27,759 --> 00:11:31,320 of intelligence the base is collecting. Our sources mentioned SGANT, 228 00:11:31,480 --> 00:11:34,080 COMMENT and PHISONT. Can you break those down for us? 229 00:11:34,279 --> 00:11:38,480 Speaker 2: Of course, so signals intelligence or SIGANT, that's the broad 230 00:11:38,679 --> 00:11:41,480 term for any intelligence gathered from electronics. 231 00:11:40,919 --> 00:11:42,320 Speaker 1: Signals, the umbrella term. 232 00:11:42,559 --> 00:11:46,919 Speaker 2: Exactly under that umbrella, we have two critical subsets. First 233 00:11:47,080 --> 00:11:55,279 is communications intelligence or COMMENT. That involves intercepted wireless communications. 234 00:11:54,840 --> 00:11:57,759 Speaker 1: So cell phones, radio transmissions, that kind of thing. 235 00:11:57,840 --> 00:12:02,440 Speaker 2: Right, Encrypted diplomatic satelliteup links, military command and controlled chatter. 236 00:12:02,960 --> 00:12:05,960 This is where analysts are literally listening to or reading 237 00:12:06,000 --> 00:12:07,440 what people are saying or texting. 238 00:12:07,600 --> 00:12:10,679 Speaker 1: And the third one fistened that's highly technical, isn't it? 239 00:12:10,759 --> 00:12:14,960 Speaker 2: Fustant or foreign instrumentation Signals intelligence is arguably the most 240 00:12:15,000 --> 00:12:17,600 critical for missile tracking, which you know was pine GAP's 241 00:12:17,639 --> 00:12:18,320 original purpose. 242 00:12:18,360 --> 00:12:19,240 Speaker 1: Okay, so what is it? 243 00:12:19,720 --> 00:12:24,279 Speaker 2: This intelligence involves monitoring the unique electronic signatures, the telemetry 244 00:12:24,360 --> 00:12:27,519 data that a foreign military system transmits during a test. 245 00:12:28,120 --> 00:12:30,639 For instance, when a country tests a new ballistic missile, 246 00:12:30,919 --> 00:12:34,519 that missile sends back data about its trajectory, fuel consumption, 247 00:12:34,879 --> 00:12:36,360 stage separation, all of that. 248 00:12:36,639 --> 00:12:39,679 Speaker 1: So feisan isn't telling you what they're saying, but how 249 00:12:39,720 --> 00:12:42,440 their technology actually works exactly. 250 00:12:42,639 --> 00:12:46,200 Speaker 2: Pine Gap collects that raw telemetry. The analysts then decode 251 00:12:46,200 --> 00:12:48,480 and interpret it, telling the US not just that a 252 00:12:48,480 --> 00:12:52,200 missile was launched, but precisely how capable its guidance system is, 253 00:12:52,440 --> 00:12:55,759 how successful its stage separation was, how accurately it can 254 00:12:55,799 --> 00:12:59,720 deliver a payload. It provides invaluable data on foreign military 255 00:12:59,799 --> 00:13:00,639 cap abilities. 256 00:13:00,799 --> 00:13:03,159 Speaker 1: And to keep up with this relentless demand for data, 257 00:13:03,320 --> 00:13:06,639 pine GAP must be constantly evolving its hardware it is. 258 00:13:07,039 --> 00:13:10,159 Speaker 2: The base is not static at all. A notable recent 259 00:13:10,240 --> 00:13:13,919 change is the addition of several Taurus multi beam antennas. 260 00:13:14,000 --> 00:13:14,759 Speaker 1: And what do they do. 261 00:13:15,200 --> 00:13:18,879 Speaker 2: These are highly advanced dishes. They're specifically installed to intercept 262 00:13:18,879 --> 00:13:22,840 transmissions from foreign and low orbit communication satellites with the 263 00:13:22,840 --> 00:13:26,360 intelligence community calls foreign sat coom SAT, and they have 264 00:13:26,399 --> 00:13:28,759 a major focus on Southeast and East Asia. 265 00:13:28,840 --> 00:13:31,440 Speaker 1: So while the massive older dishes are focused on those 266 00:13:31,480 --> 00:13:34,600 fixed geosynchronous satellites twenty thousand miles up. 267 00:13:34,679 --> 00:13:38,480 Speaker 2: These newer multi beam antennas allow pine Gap to simultaneously 268 00:13:38,519 --> 00:13:41,879 capture data from the thousands of low orbiting satellites that 269 00:13:41,919 --> 00:13:45,480 are constantly whizzing through the region. It's an enormous expansion 270 00:13:45,519 --> 00:13:46,360 of collection. 271 00:13:46,120 --> 00:13:49,639 Speaker 1: Capacity and all of this converges on its role in 272 00:13:49,720 --> 00:13:53,399 modern kinetic warfare, specifically missile defense. 273 00:13:53,600 --> 00:13:55,879 Speaker 2: This is where its data becomes directly linked to the 274 00:13:56,000 --> 00:13:57,519 US war fighting infrastructure. 275 00:13:57,559 --> 00:14:00,679 Speaker 1: Okay, let's talk about that indiquession. The sources mentioned pine 276 00:14:00,679 --> 00:14:05,080 Gap supporting things like the US Space Development Agencies PWSA 277 00:14:05,480 --> 00:14:11,240 and the Missile Defense Agencies HBTSS. That's a lot of acronyms. 278 00:14:10,799 --> 00:14:13,279 Speaker 2: It is, but if we connect the technical picture to 279 00:14:13,600 --> 00:14:17,600 the strategic reality. Pine gaps data is now essential for 280 00:14:17,679 --> 00:14:21,360 what they call birth to death tracking of advanced missile threats. 281 00:14:21,519 --> 00:14:22,120 Speaker 1: What does that mean? 282 00:14:22,240 --> 00:14:26,720 Speaker 2: The PWSA and HBTSS they're designed to detect hypersonic, ballistic 283 00:14:26,759 --> 00:14:29,799 and cruise missile threats earlier than any land based or 284 00:14:29,879 --> 00:14:31,519 sea based radar camp. 285 00:14:31,279 --> 00:14:35,200 Speaker 1: Because terrestrial radar on the ground has a horizon, it 286 00:14:35,240 --> 00:14:37,480 can't see the full trajectory of a high speed target 287 00:14:37,519 --> 00:14:39,120 over the curve of the Earth precisely. 288 00:14:39,200 --> 00:14:41,480 Speaker 2: And that's why pine GAP's role is so critical. Think 289 00:14:41,480 --> 00:14:44,480 about a threat like a hypersonic glide vehicle an HGV, 290 00:14:44,960 --> 00:14:48,120 which can move at mock five or faster through the atmosphere, 291 00:14:48,279 --> 00:14:49,399 and it can maneuver. 292 00:14:49,399 --> 00:14:51,720 Speaker 1: So it's not on a predictable path like a ballistic 293 00:14:51,720 --> 00:14:53,039 missile right, and it. 294 00:14:53,000 --> 00:14:56,480 Speaker 2: Often flies at lower altitudes. Terrestrial radar is simply too 295 00:14:56,559 --> 00:15:00,440 slow and too late to establish a continuous track Cotinuous 296 00:15:00,559 --> 00:15:04,480 high altitude wide area surveillance provided by the pine gap 297 00:15:04,519 --> 00:15:07,799 controlled satellites is the only way to maintain a custody 298 00:15:07,879 --> 00:15:09,080 chain on that target. 299 00:15:09,159 --> 00:15:11,440 Speaker 1: A custody chain, and what do they do with that 300 00:15:11,480 --> 00:15:12,840 continuous tracking data? 301 00:15:13,080 --> 00:15:16,440 Speaker 2: The information collected and processed at pine Gap provides what 302 00:15:16,559 --> 00:15:19,759 is called fire control quality tracking data, meaning meaning it's 303 00:15:19,799 --> 00:15:24,279 the highly accurate, real time, positional and velocity information needed 304 00:15:24,480 --> 00:15:28,200 to guide an interceptor missile to launch it and successfully 305 00:15:28,200 --> 00:15:31,960 defeat an advanced threat like an HGV. Without the accuracy 306 00:15:32,000 --> 00:15:35,360 and continuity pine Gap satellites offer, these high speed defense 307 00:15:35,360 --> 00:15:37,519 systems simply cannot function effectively. 308 00:15:37,600 --> 00:15:40,200 Speaker 1: It's just incredible to think about the scope. A massive 309 00:15:40,240 --> 00:15:43,879 complex in the Australian desert is providing the microsecond precise 310 00:15:43,960 --> 00:15:47,399 intelligence needed to track a hypersonic weapon launched over the 311 00:15:47,440 --> 00:15:48,480 South China Sea. 312 00:15:48,639 --> 00:15:52,519 Speaker 2: It links Australian land directly into the global defense architecture, 313 00:15:52,879 --> 00:15:56,639 and it underscores the true depth of the integration. Pine 314 00:15:56,639 --> 00:15:59,080 Gap is no longer just a listener. It is an 315 00:15:59,120 --> 00:16:03,320 irreplaceable no in the entire US system of warfighting and deterrence. 316 00:16:03,559 --> 00:16:07,600 Speaker 1: The base's role in tracking advanced weaponry is I mean, 317 00:16:07,720 --> 00:16:10,679 it's a technical marvel. But the area that draws the 318 00:16:10,720 --> 00:16:15,480 most intense ethical and legal controversy is its function as 319 00:16:15,480 --> 00:16:18,720 a central gear in the US's legal drone operations. 320 00:16:18,879 --> 00:16:21,759 Speaker 2: Right this is where the sing pine Gap collects translates 321 00:16:21,840 --> 00:16:25,759 directly from data into targeted and often lethal military action. 322 00:16:25,879 --> 00:16:29,639 Speaker 1: We're moving from strategic intelligence gathering to tactical targeting. 323 00:16:29,360 --> 00:16:32,720 Speaker 2: Exactly, and pine GAP's single most critical military function in 324 00:16:32,759 --> 00:16:37,240 this context is geolocation. Classified NSA documents confirmed that the 325 00:16:37,240 --> 00:16:40,519 bases involved in the geolocation of cell phones used by 326 00:16:40,559 --> 00:16:43,360 people throughout the world from the Pacific to the edge 327 00:16:43,360 --> 00:16:43,840 of Africa. 328 00:16:43,960 --> 00:16:46,759 Speaker 1: Let's just unpack that That means the geosynchronous satellites. Pine 329 00:16:46,799 --> 00:16:50,720 GAP controls are essentially sweeping up the signals from mobile devices. 330 00:16:50,279 --> 00:16:52,600 Speaker 2: The metadata, the transmission signature. 331 00:16:52,279 --> 00:16:55,519 Speaker 1: And using those signals to pinpoint the location of the 332 00:16:55,639 --> 00:17:00,480 user anywhere within that enormous eight three hundred coverage zone. 333 00:17:01,039 --> 00:17:05,279 Speaker 2: This capability allows the intelligence to translate the mere presence 334 00:17:05,319 --> 00:17:08,519 of a mobile signal into actionable coordinates. It creates the 335 00:17:08,599 --> 00:17:11,680 targeting information that is then relayed in real time to 336 00:17:11,880 --> 00:17:13,680 US drone operators. 337 00:17:13,200 --> 00:17:16,400 Speaker 1: Which makes pine Gap essential for US drone attacks not 338 00:17:16,480 --> 00:17:19,759 just in official war zones like Afghanistan and Syria. 339 00:17:19,319 --> 00:17:22,720 Speaker 2: But also in clandestine operations run by the CIA in 340 00:17:22,759 --> 00:17:26,400 countries where the US is not officially a war like Yemen, Pakistan, 341 00:17:26,400 --> 00:17:27,359 and Somalia, and. 342 00:17:27,319 --> 00:17:30,319 Speaker 1: The human cost of these operations is impossible to ignore 343 00:17:30,599 --> 00:17:33,400 drone strikes have resulted in thousands of deaths, and that 344 00:17:33,440 --> 00:17:35,680 includes significant civilian casualties. 345 00:17:35,759 --> 00:17:39,119 Speaker 2: The Bureau of Investigative Journalism has cited reports suggesting hundreds, 346 00:17:39,440 --> 00:17:43,440 sometimes over one thousand non combatant civilian deaths across various 347 00:17:43,480 --> 00:17:46,160 operational theaters. And this brings us head on into the 348 00:17:46,200 --> 00:17:48,960 deeply divisive issue of culpability. 349 00:17:48,240 --> 00:17:50,160 Speaker 1: The ethics of Australia's involvement. 350 00:17:50,279 --> 00:17:53,119 Speaker 2: And we have two very powerful conflicting viewpoints coming from 351 00:17:53,160 --> 00:17:54,839 those who are closest to the material. 352 00:17:55,039 --> 00:17:58,559 Speaker 1: Let's start with the culpability view. This is articulated very 353 00:17:58,559 --> 00:18:02,119 forcefully by Professor Richard tis, a leading expert on Australian 354 00:18:02,160 --> 00:18:03,039 security policy. 355 00:18:03,480 --> 00:18:08,039 Speaker 2: Professor Tantra's argument is that because pine Gap contributes hugely 356 00:18:08,119 --> 00:18:11,839 in real time to these lethal operations by providing the 357 00:18:11,839 --> 00:18:17,319 critical targeting data, Australia is inherently culpable for the consequences. 358 00:18:16,599 --> 00:18:18,680 Speaker 1: For all of it, whether it's happening today or in 359 00:18:18,720 --> 00:18:21,839 a future conflict against a major power like North Korea. 360 00:18:22,000 --> 00:18:26,440 Speaker 2: The argument is direct. Without the precise geolocation data from 361 00:18:26,440 --> 00:18:29,920 pine Gap, many of these strikes would simply not be possible. 362 00:18:30,359 --> 00:18:33,720 It makes Australia an indispensable partner in the act itself. 363 00:18:34,079 --> 00:18:37,319 Speaker 1: That is a very powerful legal and moral accusation. But 364 00:18:37,480 --> 00:18:39,720 there is a strong counter argument, and it comes from 365 00:18:39,759 --> 00:18:41,759 people who actually worked inside the system. 366 00:18:41,839 --> 00:18:45,519 Speaker 2: Right. David Rosenberg a former NSA pine Gap employee. He 367 00:18:45,640 --> 00:18:48,039 served for eighteen years as a team leader of weapons 368 00:18:48,039 --> 00:18:49,039 signals analysis. 369 00:18:49,240 --> 00:18:52,559 Speaker 1: He confirms the base's geolocation capability, but he argues something 370 00:18:52,680 --> 00:18:53,200 very different. 371 00:18:53,319 --> 00:18:56,839 Speaker 2: He argues the facility's output actually helps limit civilian casualties. 372 00:18:57,240 --> 00:19:00,680 Rosenberg's moral defense is that preventing civilian care casualties is 373 00:19:00,720 --> 00:19:04,920 a high priority for intelligence operations. He claims pine Gap 374 00:19:05,200 --> 00:19:10,319 provides accurate, highly detailed intelligence specifically to minimize harm, to 375 00:19:10,480 --> 00:19:13,680 ensure that lethal strikes are directed only at verified military 376 00:19:13,720 --> 00:19:17,559 targets and not at civilian infrastructure or unintended victims. 377 00:19:17,599 --> 00:19:21,519 Speaker 1: That's a very complex ethical tightrope to walk, because even 378 00:19:21,559 --> 00:19:25,400 if that's the intent to maximize precision and limit collateral damage, 379 00:19:25,599 --> 00:19:28,359 how does that reconcile with the documented reports of so 380 00:19:28,480 --> 00:19:29,680 many civilian deaths. 381 00:19:29,759 --> 00:19:33,480 Speaker 2: That is precisely the ethical dilemma. Intent does not negate outcome. 382 00:19:33,759 --> 00:19:36,039 Speaker 1: Is it possible for a system to be aiming for 383 00:19:36,160 --> 00:19:40,559 accuracy but still inherently cause unacceptable collateral damage just because 384 00:19:40,599 --> 00:19:44,559 the intelligence, no matter how precise, is imperfect. 385 00:19:44,200 --> 00:19:47,000 Speaker 2: And instantaneous decisions have to be made. That's the heart 386 00:19:47,000 --> 00:19:50,960 of it, and the sources highlight serious legal concerns. Rights 387 00:19:50,960 --> 00:19:54,079 groups emphasize the potential for Australian personnel to be charged 388 00:19:54,079 --> 00:19:55,680 with war crimes due to complicity. 389 00:19:55,759 --> 00:19:58,319 Speaker 1: Emily Howie from the Human Rights Law Center of Australia, 390 00:19:58,400 --> 00:20:00,720 she's been very specific about this, she has. 391 00:20:01,519 --> 00:20:05,119 Speaker 2: She stated that Australian personnel could potentially face charges under 392 00:20:05,119 --> 00:20:09,920 the Australian Criminal Code for complicity in extra judicial drone strikes, 393 00:20:10,440 --> 00:20:14,240 defining unlawful killing using drones as a violation of both 394 00:20:14,279 --> 00:20:16,160 international and Australian law. 395 00:20:16,640 --> 00:20:19,400 Speaker 1: But if the legal basis is there, why haven't there 396 00:20:19,440 --> 00:20:20,640 been any investigations. 397 00:20:21,079 --> 00:20:23,960 Speaker 2: The difficulty lies in the structural complexity of the Five 398 00:20:23,960 --> 00:20:27,759 Eyes network. She In Westmoreland, a former US Air Force 399 00:20:27,799 --> 00:20:31,039 signals relay technician who worked in the drone network. He said, 400 00:20:31,079 --> 00:20:33,519 these operations are pretty much a global affair. 401 00:20:33,680 --> 00:20:36,440 Speaker 1: So because the network is so integrated and the data 402 00:20:36,480 --> 00:20:40,039 is moving instantaneously between five different sovereign states, it creates 403 00:20:40,039 --> 00:20:43,640 a kind of intelligence firewall against accountability correct. 404 00:20:43,839 --> 00:20:46,880 Speaker 2: The real time collaboration blurs the lines of culpability. It 405 00:20:46,920 --> 00:20:50,839 makes it extremely difficult to pin specific legal responsibility on 406 00:20:50,839 --> 00:20:54,839 one country or even one individual, which just discourages any 407 00:20:54,880 --> 00:20:57,640 single national authority from investigating. 408 00:20:57,119 --> 00:20:59,640 Speaker 1: In this controversy. It isn't just an academic debate. It 409 00:20:59,680 --> 00:21:03,240 is to direct physical resistance on the ground in Australia. 410 00:21:03,559 --> 00:21:07,480 Speaker 2: Yes, the October twenty twenty five Gaza War blockade is 411 00:21:07,519 --> 00:21:11,279 a really recent and specific example. Activists from a group 412 00:21:11,359 --> 00:21:16,119 called Impartoi for Felstine they locked themselves to a concrete 413 00:21:16,160 --> 00:21:18,039 filled barrel on Hat Road. 414 00:21:18,240 --> 00:21:21,799 Speaker 1: They blocked the road for nine hours, physically obstructing Pine 415 00:21:21,799 --> 00:21:24,839 Gap workers from getting to the base during a critical 416 00:21:24,839 --> 00:21:28,079 shift change. And their legal justification for doing this was 417 00:21:28,200 --> 00:21:29,640 incredibly provocative. 418 00:21:29,759 --> 00:21:32,759 Speaker 2: They said they were preventing genocide. They asserted they were 419 00:21:32,759 --> 00:21:36,400 blocking workers from assisting in the alleged sharing of geolocation 420 00:21:36,599 --> 00:21:40,160 data with the Israeli Defense Forces the IDF, noting that 421 00:21:40,200 --> 00:21:42,839 the base's satellite coverage includes the Gaza region. 422 00:21:43,240 --> 00:21:46,880 Speaker 1: Professor Richard Tanter actually provided expert testimony in a similar 423 00:21:46,920 --> 00:21:47,640 protest case. 424 00:21:47,680 --> 00:21:50,640 Speaker 2: Before he did, he detailed the mechanisms by which Pine 425 00:21:50,640 --> 00:21:53,640 GAP's intelligence is provided to the IDF via the US 426 00:21:53,720 --> 00:21:56,519 National Security Agency. He noted that three out of the 427 00:21:56,519 --> 00:22:00,440 four advanced Ryan satellites continuously surveiled the broad air that 428 00:22:00,559 --> 00:22:01,960 encompasses Gaza, so. 429 00:22:01,880 --> 00:22:04,960 Speaker 1: The technical capability to provide that real time tactical intelligence 430 00:22:05,000 --> 00:22:06,079 is definitely there. 431 00:22:06,200 --> 00:22:10,079 Speaker 2: It is now. The court didn't ultimately validate the protest 432 00:22:10,160 --> 00:22:13,720 as a legal justification for a criminal offense, but the 433 00:22:13,799 --> 00:22:18,519 action powerfully highlights the profound local distress over the basis 434 00:22:18,519 --> 00:22:21,440 specific international military involvements. 435 00:22:20,960 --> 00:22:24,160 Speaker 1: And we can't overlook the deeply rooted and long standing 436 00:22:24,200 --> 00:22:28,160 opposition from the Arunte people, the traditional landowners of that region. 437 00:22:28,240 --> 00:22:31,599 Speaker 2: That opposition is fundamental. It injects a critical layer of 438 00:22:31,640 --> 00:22:34,400 indigenous sovereignty into this whole ethical debate. 439 00:22:34,599 --> 00:22:37,480 Speaker 1: There's a quote from an Arunte elder, Felicity Hayes, that 440 00:22:37,599 --> 00:22:38,680 is just devastating. 441 00:22:38,759 --> 00:22:41,720 Speaker 2: It connects the ancient land to modern warfare. So directly, 442 00:22:41,839 --> 00:22:44,720 she asked, who gave America the right to put their 443 00:22:44,720 --> 00:22:47,880 military base on our sacred land and use our country 444 00:22:47,880 --> 00:22:50,839 to kill innocent women, men, children, and old people overseas. 445 00:22:51,279 --> 00:22:54,200 Speaker 1: The Erunite people never seeded their land. They see the 446 00:22:54,240 --> 00:22:57,440 base as an imposition using their sacred country to perpetrate 447 00:22:57,480 --> 00:23:00,599 loobal violence, all without their consultation or their consent. 448 00:23:01,000 --> 00:23:02,880 Speaker 2: That quote, it just cuts right to the heart of 449 00:23:02,920 --> 00:23:05,480 the matter, doesn't it. It's a century's old land rights 450 00:23:05,559 --> 00:23:09,279 issue colliding head on with twenty first century warfare. It 451 00:23:09,319 --> 00:23:12,640 makes Pine Gap a highly charged political symbol at home, 452 00:23:12,960 --> 00:23:15,200 even as it controls global conflicts abroad. 453 00:23:15,759 --> 00:23:19,000 Speaker 1: Let's pivot now and examine the internal political and management 454 00:23:19,000 --> 00:23:22,400 structure of Pine Gap, which holds a well a very 455 00:23:22,440 --> 00:23:24,359 controversial place in Australian history. 456 00:23:24,559 --> 00:23:27,480 Speaker 2: Right, And you can't discuss the political narrative without detailing 457 00:23:27,720 --> 00:23:32,519 the explosive nineteen seventy five dismissal of Prime Minister GoF Whitlam. 458 00:23:32,680 --> 00:23:35,319 Speaker 1: This is a deep rabbit hole of political history, fraught 459 00:23:35,319 --> 00:23:37,200 with conspiracy claims, it really is. 460 00:23:37,799 --> 00:23:41,759 Speaker 2: Whitlam came to power with a distinct intention to assert 461 00:23:41,839 --> 00:23:45,799 greater Australian control over US bases and alliances. He had 462 00:23:45,839 --> 00:23:50,000 openly pledged to uncover Pine GAP's highly classified operations, and he. 463 00:23:50,000 --> 00:23:53,039 Speaker 1: Was publicly questioning the benefit of these US spy bases right, 464 00:23:53,079 --> 00:23:55,519 suggesting they offered no real advantage to Australia. 465 00:23:55,640 --> 00:23:58,720 Speaker 2: He was and his tenure was short lived and very turbulent. 466 00:23:59,200 --> 00:24:02,359 Just weeks after escalating his inquiries, he was controversially removed 467 00:24:02,359 --> 00:24:05,400 from office by the Governor General, Sir John Kerr, who 468 00:24:05,480 --> 00:24:08,160 invoked these rarely used constitutional reserve powers. 469 00:24:08,599 --> 00:24:12,279 Speaker 1: And this is where the shadows of the intelligence community creep. 470 00:24:12,000 --> 00:24:16,599 Speaker 2: In yes investigated journalists, most notably John Pilger, have claimed 471 00:24:16,599 --> 00:24:21,279 that declassified CIA cables and internal documents strongly suggest US 472 00:24:21,279 --> 00:24:25,960 Intelligence agency involvement CIA and MI six in the push 473 00:24:26,000 --> 00:24:27,599 for Whitlam's removal. 474 00:24:27,319 --> 00:24:30,279 Speaker 1: And the motivation, according to these sources, was. 475 00:24:30,240 --> 00:24:33,720 Speaker 2: What to protect absolute US control over the pine GAF 476 00:24:33,759 --> 00:24:37,640 facility to prevent an Australian leader from undermining this security 477 00:24:37,640 --> 00:24:39,680 alliance at its most critical node. 478 00:24:39,799 --> 00:24:42,680 Speaker 1: So the fact that specific documents related to the dismissal 479 00:24:42,799 --> 00:24:45,839 have been withheld for so long it certainly fuels the 480 00:24:45,839 --> 00:24:49,319 theory that the US intelligence community acted decisively to protect 481 00:24:49,400 --> 00:24:50,559 its strategic asset. 482 00:24:51,079 --> 00:24:54,279 Speaker 2: It established a chilling precedent that the base's operational security 483 00:24:54,359 --> 00:24:58,279 might just supersede the will of the democratically elected Australian government. 484 00:24:58,960 --> 00:25:03,839 Its cemented well. The command structure fundamentally reinforces US control 485 00:25:04,559 --> 00:25:06,960 the chief of facility, and there have been sixteen since 486 00:25:07,039 --> 00:25:10,440 nineteen sixty seven has always been a civilian, predominantly a 487 00:25:10,480 --> 00:25:12,920 senior officer from the CIA or the NSA. 488 00:25:13,440 --> 00:25:18,200 Speaker 1: So people like Michael Bartholomew or Tim Howell, both CIA veterans, exactly. 489 00:25:18,039 --> 00:25:22,279 Speaker 2: That strong US intelligence community pedigree at the top ensures 490 00:25:22,279 --> 00:25:25,079 that US strategic priorities remain paramount. 491 00:25:25,599 --> 00:25:29,640 Speaker 1: What about the official Australian representation within that command structure. 492 00:25:29,640 --> 00:25:32,960 Speaker 2: Australia's senior officer is known as the Australian Defense Representative 493 00:25:33,039 --> 00:25:35,680 or ady Race. Sometimes they're called the Deputy Chief and 494 00:25:35,799 --> 00:25:38,240 their job Their stated role is to ensure the Australian 495 00:25:38,240 --> 00:25:41,640 government has full knowledge and concurrence of all activities taking 496 00:25:41,640 --> 00:25:44,880 place at the facility. These are high level positions held 497 00:25:44,880 --> 00:25:48,000 by significant figures like Rachel Noble, who is Deputy Chief 498 00:25:48,079 --> 00:25:50,359 before rising to other high profile roles. 499 00:25:50,480 --> 00:25:53,839 Speaker 1: So on paper, Australia has full oversight. But beneath the 500 00:25:53,920 --> 00:25:56,480 chiefs how is the massive two hundred and four seven 501 00:25:56,559 --> 00:25:58,279 operational demand managed. 502 00:25:58,839 --> 00:26:01,599 Speaker 2: This brings us to the crucial operational structure centered around 503 00:26:01,640 --> 00:26:04,559 the Mission Director, the MD. The MD is the highest 504 00:26:04,559 --> 00:26:07,079 authority in the operations room during any given shift. 505 00:26:07,240 --> 00:26:09,359 Speaker 1: Okay, and this is important because is due. 506 00:26:09,279 --> 00:26:12,559 Speaker 2: To the continuous nature of global surveillance. The MD acts 507 00:26:12,599 --> 00:26:14,839 as the chief of facility for seventy five percent of 508 00:26:14,880 --> 00:26:15,160 the time. 509 00:26:15,240 --> 00:26:18,119 Speaker 1: Seventy five percent, so basically anytime it's not a weekday, 510 00:26:18,440 --> 00:26:19,559 during business. 511 00:26:19,160 --> 00:26:23,079 Speaker 2: Hours, evenings, weekends, holidays. Yes, that means a relatively small 512 00:26:23,079 --> 00:26:27,000 group of rotating personnel holds immense operational authority for three 513 00:26:27,079 --> 00:26:30,119 quarters of the week. There are typically three mds, one 514 00:26:30,160 --> 00:26:33,920 for each shift, rotated among senior US and Australian personnel. 515 00:26:33,960 --> 00:26:36,079 Speaker 1: And the work itself sounds incredibly demanding. 516 00:26:36,200 --> 00:26:40,039 Speaker 2: It is rigorous, twelve hour rotating shifts, often a pattern 517 00:26:40,079 --> 00:26:42,319 of four on, four off, so two day shifts, two 518 00:26:42,400 --> 00:26:45,720 night shifts, then four days off. It places immense authority 519 00:26:45,759 --> 00:26:48,680 over critical global operations into the hands of just a 520 00:26:48,720 --> 00:26:50,079 few senior staff members. 521 00:26:50,480 --> 00:26:54,839 Speaker 1: Okay, let's unpack a huge security paradox that our sources highlight. 522 00:26:55,200 --> 00:26:59,000 It's this disconnect between the massive investment and technology and 523 00:26:59,039 --> 00:27:03,119 the surprisingly low valuation of the human intelligence personnel, and this. 524 00:27:03,079 --> 00:27:07,039 Speaker 2: Creates a critical security threat. It's a fundamental vulnerability in 525 00:27:07,079 --> 00:27:09,960 the entire five Eyes architecture, not just at Pine Gap. 526 00:27:10,119 --> 00:27:14,799 Speaker 1: The Alliance nations, including Australia, they pour billions into Sigant and. 527 00:27:14,799 --> 00:27:19,200 Speaker 2: Joint billions into the technology, the satellites, the computers. Yet 528 00:27:19,319 --> 00:27:23,279 virtually every major intelligence leak of the last decade, from 529 00:27:23,400 --> 00:27:26,319 Edward Snowden's documents to the Vault seven leak by the 530 00:27:26,359 --> 00:27:29,240 former CIA engineer Joshua Schulti. 531 00:27:29,039 --> 00:27:31,039 Speaker 1: They didn't stem from technological failure. 532 00:27:31,480 --> 00:27:34,799 Speaker 2: No, they stemmed from failures in human intelligence or human nity. 533 00:27:35,359 --> 00:27:36,920 They were failures involving people. 534 00:27:37,160 --> 00:27:40,440 Speaker 1: The core quoti being raised is whether critical national security 535 00:27:40,440 --> 00:27:44,079 functions can effectively be outsourced and run on the cheap and. 536 00:27:44,079 --> 00:27:47,799 Speaker 2: The facility relies heavily on contractors. David Rosenberg, the former 537 00:27:47,920 --> 00:27:52,000 NSA employee. He noted that large corporations like Raytheon hire 538 00:27:52,039 --> 00:27:56,119 civilian operators to man positions and operations monitoring data. 539 00:27:56,160 --> 00:27:59,519 Speaker 1: And when a government relies so heavily on contractors and 540 00:28:00,200 --> 00:28:04,759 morale is impacted by financial strain, the overall security vulnerability 541 00:28:04,799 --> 00:28:06,240 just increases dramatically. 542 00:28:06,400 --> 00:28:09,720 Speaker 2: Let's stop here, because this salary disparity is shocking. You're 543 00:28:09,720 --> 00:28:13,720 talking about high pressure, high clearance national security jobs. What 544 00:28:13,759 --> 00:28:14,880 are the actual numbers? 545 00:28:15,279 --> 00:28:19,319 Speaker 1: Okay, consider this specific stark data point from the sources. 546 00:28:19,839 --> 00:28:23,480 An Australian Defense Force security advisor at Pine Gap, dealing 547 00:28:23,519 --> 00:28:26,079 with the most sensitive global intelligence on Earth. 548 00:28:26,440 --> 00:28:29,640 Speaker 2: Their annual gross salary sits roughly between fifty eight thousand 549 00:28:29,680 --> 00:28:32,200 dollars and sixty two thousand dollars AUD. 550 00:28:32,279 --> 00:28:34,720 Speaker 1: Fifty eight to sixty two thousand, and many of these 551 00:28:34,839 --> 00:28:38,799 roles require a university degree and specialized training that. 552 00:28:38,799 --> 00:28:41,880 Speaker 2: Is extremely low for that level of responsibility. When you 553 00:28:41,920 --> 00:28:43,759 factor in the high cost of living at a remote 554 00:28:43,799 --> 00:28:46,559 center like Alice Springs, it seems like a self inflicted 555 00:28:46,559 --> 00:28:47,599 security wound. 556 00:28:47,519 --> 00:28:50,119 Speaker 1: Especially when you can trust it with civilian jobs. 557 00:28:50,000 --> 00:28:53,519 Speaker 2: Right in the strong Australian mining and construction sectors. For example, 558 00:28:53,880 --> 00:28:57,200 entry level FIFO fly and flyout construction jobs often start 559 00:28:57,240 --> 00:29:00,079 between eighty thousand dollars and one hundred thousand dollars AUD. 560 00:29:00,559 --> 00:29:02,799 Speaker 1: And they require no tertiary education. 561 00:29:02,480 --> 00:29:04,960 Speaker 2: And certainly not the stress or scrutiny inherent in handling 562 00:29:04,960 --> 00:29:09,079 classified national security information. So you have highly trained intelligence 563 00:29:09,119 --> 00:29:12,880 personnel being paid significantly less than entry level civil. 564 00:29:12,599 --> 00:29:16,440 Speaker 1: Workers, facing financial pressure, burnout from demanding twelve hour shifts, 565 00:29:16,440 --> 00:29:18,319 and massive security responsibility. 566 00:29:18,640 --> 00:29:23,359 Speaker 2: That financial pressure and disparity actively risks losing trained personnel 567 00:29:23,440 --> 00:29:26,799 to the civil sector, and for those who remain it 568 00:29:26,799 --> 00:29:30,440 can burden them with financial issues. Our sources suggest this 569 00:29:30,559 --> 00:29:35,000 dramatically increases their security vulnerability compared to adversaries like Russia 570 00:29:35,000 --> 00:29:38,160 and China, who reportedly do not outsource national security to 571 00:29:38,200 --> 00:29:39,240 the same extent. 572 00:29:39,240 --> 00:29:42,720 Speaker 1: They invest more heavily in retaining and compensating their human 573 00:29:42,720 --> 00:29:44,480 intelligence capital, and. 574 00:29:44,400 --> 00:29:48,079 Speaker 2: The sources strongly suggest this undervaluation of human capital poses 575 00:29:48,079 --> 00:29:51,680 a far greater risk than any technological failure. It leads 576 00:29:51,720 --> 00:29:55,920 directly to potential human tea failures and ultimately massive leaks. 577 00:29:56,440 --> 00:30:00,000 It's a fundamental economic factor undermining national security At ALD 578 00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:02,480 America's most critical overseas intelligence site. 579 00:30:02,599 --> 00:30:04,480 Speaker 1: The paradox is just staggering. 580 00:30:04,640 --> 00:30:07,200 Speaker 2: So if we synthesize this whole deep dive the Bass 581 00:30:07,279 --> 00:30:12,400 dramatic political history, it's staggering physical scale, the geosynchronous surveillance capabilities, 582 00:30:12,400 --> 00:30:15,680 tracking threats globally, and its deeply contested role in lethal 583 00:30:15,720 --> 00:30:19,000 drone strikes, we see planing gaps evolution pretty clearly defined. 584 00:30:19,359 --> 00:30:22,559 Speaker 1: It moved from a niche cold war listening post into 585 00:30:22,559 --> 00:30:27,079 a modern nexus of global warfare, missile tracking and tactical targeting, 586 00:30:27,640 --> 00:30:31,359 all operating with minimal transparency on Australian land. 587 00:30:31,319 --> 00:30:34,880 Speaker 2: Which highlights a persistent and fundamental tension at the very 588 00:30:34,920 --> 00:30:38,039 heart of the US Australia alliance. And we have to 589 00:30:38,079 --> 00:30:41,440 return to the insightful perspective of the late Professor Des Baal, 590 00:30:41,920 --> 00:30:45,759 a lifelong researcher of the facility. He stated that Australia 591 00:30:45,839 --> 00:30:48,200 gets everything and nothing from the base. 592 00:30:48,319 --> 00:30:49,799 Speaker 1: That paradox needs explaining. 593 00:30:49,920 --> 00:30:53,359 Speaker 2: Okay, so Australia gets everything in the sense that it 594 00:30:53,440 --> 00:30:56,920 receives full access to the raw intelligence flowing through the 595 00:30:56,960 --> 00:31:00,519 five ICE channels, the high fidelity tracking data, the global 596 00:31:00,519 --> 00:31:03,680 communication sweeps, the feisant telemetry. 597 00:31:03,119 --> 00:31:04,000 Speaker 1: But it gets nothing. 598 00:31:04,200 --> 00:31:06,759 Speaker 2: It gets nothing in the sense that the intelligence collected 599 00:31:06,759 --> 00:31:11,200 and prioritized is fundamentally geared toward US strategic interests targeting China, 600 00:31:11,440 --> 00:31:15,079 tracking Russian missiles, supporting US drone strikes. It's not necessarily 601 00:31:15,079 --> 00:31:18,640 what Australia needs for its own independent, immediate regional security policy, 602 00:31:18,920 --> 00:31:21,319 like a local maritime surveillance or domestic threats. 603 00:31:21,480 --> 00:31:24,720 Speaker 1: So the Australian government pays a political and ethical cost 604 00:31:24,759 --> 00:31:28,240 for access to intelligence that is primarily tailored to the 605 00:31:28,359 --> 00:31:29,759 US global agenda. 606 00:31:29,839 --> 00:31:34,039 Speaker 2: But there is a powerful, undeniable financial counter argument for 607 00:31:34,160 --> 00:31:37,440 maintaining this status. Quote. Of course, there is defense experts 608 00:31:37,440 --> 00:31:41,000 people like Peter Jennings. They estimate that maintaining this crucial 609 00:31:41,200 --> 00:31:45,480 US alliance via pine Gap saves Australia billions of dollars 610 00:31:45,480 --> 00:31:49,599 annually in defense spending as much as thirty two billion dollars. 611 00:31:49,440 --> 00:31:53,359 Speaker 1: And that massive financial incentive reinforces the political difficulty the 612 00:31:53,400 --> 00:31:57,640 near impossibility of ever closing or radically reforming the facility. 613 00:31:57,720 --> 00:32:01,720 Speaker 2: Pine Gap therefore stands at this uncomfortable intersection of financial necessity, 614 00:32:02,079 --> 00:32:06,559 geopolitical alliance, and serious ethical and legal concerns regarding complicity 615 00:32:06,559 --> 00:32:07,720 in international. 616 00:32:07,200 --> 00:32:09,400 Speaker 1: Strikes, and we have to conclude on the most profound 617 00:32:09,440 --> 00:32:13,039 security risk raised in our sources. The base is described 618 00:32:13,079 --> 00:32:16,200 as a fundamentally important element in US war fighting and 619 00:32:16,240 --> 00:32:17,759 deterrence of conflict. 620 00:32:17,359 --> 00:32:20,359 Speaker 2: Which makes Australia, as a result, a definite nuclear target 621 00:32:20,440 --> 00:32:23,039 in any major conflict involving the US in a power 622 00:32:23,119 --> 00:32:24,240 like China or Russia. 623 00:32:24,279 --> 00:32:27,359 Speaker 1: The base is critical to US strategy. If that strategy 624 00:32:27,440 --> 00:32:30,160 escalates to a global conflict, Australia is on the front 625 00:32:30,200 --> 00:32:32,920 line simply by hosting this asset. The fate of a 626 00:32:33,000 --> 00:32:36,160 nation and potentially the future of global conflict, flows through 627 00:32:36,160 --> 00:32:38,400 the ray doomes of that remote desert outpost. 628 00:32:38,799 --> 00:32:42,680 Speaker 2: So, considering the confirmed risks of complicity in international strikes 629 00:32:43,160 --> 00:32:45,759 and the potential for the base to become a wartime target, 630 00:32:46,440 --> 00:32:51,079 what specific reforms or demands for transparency should Australia prioritize 631 00:32:51,119 --> 00:32:54,759 to reconcile its security alliance with its own national sovereignty 632 00:32:54,759 --> 00:32:57,559 and ethical obligations? Want to Noah you think the o 633 00:32:57,559 --> 00:32:58,279 acamma below. 634 00:32:58,720 --> 00:33:01,039 Speaker 1: Thank you for joining us on this critical, thrilling thread. 635 00:33:01,079 --> 00:33:03,400 We'll be back next time with another deep dive into 636 00:33:03,400 --> 00:33:06,119 the powerful, often hidden stories behind the headlines.