WEBVTT 1 00:01:01.439 --> 00:01:05.159 Hell, everybody, and welcome. This is the Apostate Profit. Uh. 2 00:01:05.200 --> 00:01:11.280 And today I am live with a very interesting guest, 3 00:01:12.280 --> 00:01:18.640 and that would be somebody who is professionally known as 4 00:01:19.120 --> 00:01:20.200 Randy Balls. 5 00:01:21.159 --> 00:01:22.079 Uh. 6 00:01:22.599 --> 00:01:28.159 How are you doing, Randy, Hey, I'm down here in charge. Yeah. 7 00:01:28.560 --> 00:01:32.599 That's my mega, mega past megachurch pastor skit. So he 8 00:01:32.680 --> 00:01:34.680 threw me for a loop that. I wasn't expecting Randy 9 00:01:34.680 --> 00:01:38.840 Balls to come up to the surface of my altered personalities, 10 00:01:38.840 --> 00:01:40.840 but I'm going me over. 11 00:01:41.319 --> 00:01:43.200 It was. It was a very very fun thing. I 12 00:01:43.200 --> 00:01:46.640 watched it several times. So yeah, uh, one video. I 13 00:01:46.640 --> 00:01:48.200 don't know if you made more of those, but. 14 00:01:48.200 --> 00:01:52.599 Yeah, they're both. Yeah, I'll de send it. I'll see, 15 00:01:52.599 --> 00:01:54.359 I'll send you both to see which one. 16 00:01:55.319 --> 00:02:00.719 Awesome, awesome sound everything okay, everything balanced? Everyone? Yes, good, okay, wonderful. Yeah, 17 00:02:00.719 --> 00:02:03.439 this was supposed to happen yesterday, but then it didn't happen. 18 00:02:04.519 --> 00:02:08.960 Had to move it to today, which is also kind 19 00:02:08.960 --> 00:02:12.879 of appropriate because the date today is a good day 20 00:02:12.919 --> 00:02:14.960 to talk about Islam. 21 00:02:15.479 --> 00:02:15.960 Uh. 22 00:02:16.120 --> 00:02:21.280 Some people call it an Islamic holiday. So here we 23 00:02:21.319 --> 00:02:28.800 are today, gathered talking about all that. Jay, I have 24 00:02:28.879 --> 00:02:31.840 to correct myself. You're not Randy Balls. We have to 25 00:02:31.840 --> 00:02:33.840 be serious with this whole conversation. 26 00:02:33.360 --> 00:02:37.159 And you're not shake your booty, uh not today. He's 27 00:02:37.199 --> 00:02:40.360 the final boss of Islamic debater. So we need to 28 00:02:40.439 --> 00:02:42.560 we need to have a debate between Randy Balls and 29 00:02:42.599 --> 00:02:43.280 shake your booty. 30 00:02:43.680 --> 00:02:48.280 That would be fantastic. That's a good idea. Yeah, you 31 00:02:48.360 --> 00:02:51.400 are Jay Dyer, and you have recently been having uh 32 00:02:51.680 --> 00:02:56.879 interesting debates, some some very very big ones that I 33 00:02:57.000 --> 00:02:59.919 reviewed here on this channel that lots of people have seen. 34 00:03:00.080 --> 00:03:04.520 I think your debate together with Sam Shimun against the 35 00:03:04.560 --> 00:03:08.120 two pedophiles. I think that has like over over a 36 00:03:08.159 --> 00:03:08.879 million views or so. 37 00:03:09.000 --> 00:03:14.439 Right, it's around nine hundred thousand on Twitter, a couple 38 00:03:14.400 --> 00:03:17.280 of hundred thousand on Rumble, and then eight hundred thousand 39 00:03:17.319 --> 00:03:19.879 on YouTube. So yeah, overall, it's it's up there. 40 00:03:20.520 --> 00:03:23.840 Wow, very very nice. And I saw it. And the 41 00:03:23.919 --> 00:03:27.879 thing is, I mean you you guys did a fantastic 42 00:03:27.960 --> 00:03:31.680 job during the debate. The other side looked quite pathetic 43 00:03:32.439 --> 00:03:39.639 and I don't know, it's it's even even Muslims were 44 00:03:39.639 --> 00:03:43.240 conceding pretty much. When you look at the average response, 45 00:03:43.280 --> 00:03:47.000 the feedback from audiences that the Muslim side did not 46 00:03:47.120 --> 00:03:50.919 do a good job defending their beliefs. So it was 47 00:03:51.000 --> 00:03:54.919 a very very good combination to watch you and Sam Shimun. 48 00:03:55.639 --> 00:04:00.639 And yeah, but but I have some problems with some 49 00:04:00.680 --> 00:04:02.560 of the things that you said, and I basically want 50 00:04:02.639 --> 00:04:08.280 to confront you on your misrepresentations of Islam, and uh, 51 00:04:08.680 --> 00:04:13.199 I want to correct correct you on all that. So 52 00:04:13.319 --> 00:04:16.279 first off, how about we start by you just telling 53 00:04:16.360 --> 00:04:19.040 us who you are, where we can find you, and 54 00:04:19.120 --> 00:04:20.199 why we should listen to you. 55 00:04:21.240 --> 00:04:23.759 Uh. Yeah, my name is Jake and the Muslim metaphysician. 56 00:04:23.839 --> 00:04:30.240 You can find me over. The problem with rit fun 57 00:04:30.720 --> 00:04:37.360 is that with he debates, he lies a little bit. 58 00:04:37.519 --> 00:04:39.639 So the funny thing was that it was pretty good 59 00:04:39.680 --> 00:04:41.600 man that was. 60 00:04:41.519 --> 00:04:44.519 Actually supposed to be Daniel and Jake, and then Jake 61 00:04:44.600 --> 00:04:48.240 so suddenly had the Internet go out right before the debate. 62 00:04:48.800 --> 00:04:50.000 Oh how does that happen? 63 00:04:51.120 --> 00:04:54.839 Weird timing. But then Ijah stuff though, which is funny 64 00:04:54.839 --> 00:04:58.480 because I didn't think they actually were on the exact 65 00:04:58.519 --> 00:05:01.879 same page. Then on Jake, I mean e jaws, but 66 00:05:01.920 --> 00:05:04.120 I guess they pretended to be you know, buddy buddy 67 00:05:04.120 --> 00:05:07.120 for the sake of the debate. But whatever, Yeah, it was. 68 00:05:07.240 --> 00:05:09.759 It was a wild debate overall. I think it went 69 00:05:10.160 --> 00:05:13.759 pretty good for for our side. To look if you 70 00:05:13.800 --> 00:05:16.319 read the comments over on the Fresh and Fit channel, 71 00:05:16.639 --> 00:05:18.160 I was kind of blown away at the comments. I 72 00:05:18.160 --> 00:05:21.399 thought we'd have a lot more like balance between you know, 73 00:05:21.800 --> 00:05:23.959 because the Muslims go to the comments are always like 74 00:05:24.040 --> 00:05:26.879 they're champion and cheerlead no matter what happened in the debate. 75 00:05:27.279 --> 00:05:29.800 But I mean the comments are just like ninety nine 76 00:05:29.839 --> 00:05:34.040 percent that you know, terrible for the for the side 77 00:05:34.040 --> 00:05:36.399 of it is. But anyway, so yeah, I'm Jay Dire. 78 00:05:36.439 --> 00:05:37.920 I do a lot of debates. I do a lot 79 00:05:37.920 --> 00:05:43.079 of geopolitical analysis. I do film analysis, written a few 80 00:05:43.079 --> 00:05:47.879 books on that, books on philosophy, host The Fourth Hour 81 00:05:47.959 --> 00:05:50.319 of He Who Cannot Be Named every Friday, done that 82 00:05:50.360 --> 00:05:53.720 for four years. Yeah, so that's what I do. 83 00:05:54.720 --> 00:05:59.800 Very very very very nice. You know what's funny until 84 00:05:59.800 --> 00:06:02.720 you just mentioned that it was supposed to be Jake 85 00:06:02.720 --> 00:06:05.160 the Muslim Metaphysician, but then it was it just for 86 00:06:05.199 --> 00:06:08.439 some reason in my mind, I was totally remembering it 87 00:06:08.480 --> 00:06:10.000 the wrong way, and I thought you had a debate 88 00:06:10.040 --> 00:06:13.399 with Donally Kikichu and Jake the Muslim Metaphysician. Despite the 89 00:06:13.439 --> 00:06:15.920 fact that I watched the whole debate twice and also 90 00:06:16.560 --> 00:06:18.959 commented on it, which is very, very funny. It might 91 00:06:19.079 --> 00:06:22.160 have to do with the fact that I had my 92 00:06:22.240 --> 00:06:27.079 interactions with Jake, had discussions with him, was supposed to 93 00:06:27.079 --> 00:06:30.920 debate him. Eventually he backed out and blocked me. But 94 00:06:33.079 --> 00:06:36.639 it just to come in in his place was just 95 00:06:36.720 --> 00:06:39.560 a very very dumb move. I don't know who organized this, 96 00:06:39.680 --> 00:06:42.600 who came up with him as an alternative, but at 97 00:06:42.680 --> 00:06:47.199 least Jake could a little bit by being coherent, you know, 98 00:06:47.279 --> 00:06:51.759 and speaking the same language appeal to audiences and you know, 99 00:06:52.360 --> 00:06:54.439 I don't know, get get some kind of popularity, even 100 00:06:54.439 --> 00:06:56.160 if the stuff that he says is completely nonsense. But 101 00:06:56.480 --> 00:07:01.120 it is just he's not likable. He he's a little weasel, 102 00:07:01.680 --> 00:07:06.800 incredibly disrespectful for no reason, very dishonest person, and he's 103 00:07:06.800 --> 00:07:12.439 on record on audio record calling somebody a wet bag 104 00:07:12.480 --> 00:07:17.519 piece of shit in a debate about Christianity. 105 00:07:18.480 --> 00:07:20.399 Yeah, it was an odd choice, but you know, I 106 00:07:20.399 --> 00:07:22.839 think if I recall in the DMS, originally it was 107 00:07:22.879 --> 00:07:26.439 going to be they wanted a good job, so and 108 00:07:26.480 --> 00:07:27.920 I don't know who who was going to be, is 109 00:07:28.000 --> 00:07:29.680 Mohammed a job and somebody And of course he wouldn't 110 00:07:29.680 --> 00:07:32.360 do it, and then he backed out of the Samshumuon thing, 111 00:07:32.439 --> 00:07:35.600 and so there's a lot of backing out going on 112 00:07:35.600 --> 00:07:37.879 on that side. I don't know what they're so worried about, 113 00:07:37.879 --> 00:07:40.480 but in the case of Jake, I think the pattern 114 00:07:40.560 --> 00:07:43.360 I've noticed is that Jake will really only debate when 115 00:07:43.399 --> 00:07:47.399 it's something relating to these really sort of abstract metaphysical topics. 116 00:07:47.399 --> 00:07:49.720 He won't go anywhere near the Quran, you will go 117 00:07:49.720 --> 00:07:52.920 anywhere near comparison to biblical texts. And I think he 118 00:07:53.000 --> 00:07:55.959 kind of, maybe even halfway will admit he doesn't really 119 00:07:56.000 --> 00:07:58.519 know that stuff. So for him, it's this sort of 120 00:07:58.600 --> 00:08:01.519 pseudo philosophical and ever, yeah. 121 00:08:01.360 --> 00:08:04.600 It's it's a funny thing. He wanted to to press 122 00:08:04.680 --> 00:08:07.839 me on having a debate about the existence of God. 123 00:08:07.879 --> 00:08:10.879 I said, look, when I joined you guys, I had 124 00:08:10.879 --> 00:08:14.560 that debate only because I wanted to give you guys 125 00:08:15.240 --> 00:08:17.920 what you want and then further have discussions about Islam. 126 00:08:18.079 --> 00:08:19.800 How about we have a discussion about Islam. How about 127 00:08:19.800 --> 00:08:21.920 we'd have a debate on Islam. He never would accept that. 128 00:08:21.959 --> 00:08:25.279 Eventually I pressed him to accept it, and even then, 129 00:08:25.920 --> 00:08:27.839 just when we were about to have the debate in 130 00:08:27.879 --> 00:08:32.200 a few days. He made some dumb excuse about my 131 00:08:32.320 --> 00:08:34.440 post about Israel or something like that. He was like, 132 00:08:34.759 --> 00:08:36.919 you're horrible, I'm going to block you, and then it 133 00:08:37.000 --> 00:08:39.279 blocked me. And he did the same thing with lots 134 00:08:39.279 --> 00:08:40.600 of other people. It's just that. 135 00:08:42.120 --> 00:08:44.279 With Sam too, or they were going to debate and 136 00:08:44.279 --> 00:08:47.039 he bled, oh, I've decided suddenly that you're too immoral 137 00:08:47.080 --> 00:08:48.480 for me to debate and block. 138 00:08:48.360 --> 00:08:51.279 Me exactly exactly, And it's not like we're doing something 139 00:08:51.360 --> 00:08:54.320 different from whatever we have done for years. It doesn't 140 00:08:54.320 --> 00:08:59.559 make any sense. Yeah, but let's come to your your 141 00:08:59.559 --> 00:09:03.000 impression of Islam altogether. Of course, these are very interesting people. 142 00:09:03.000 --> 00:09:04.879 It's just a coincidence that they happened to have these 143 00:09:05.080 --> 00:09:08.639 similar personalities. Probably nothing to do with Islam. But you've 144 00:09:08.679 --> 00:09:13.720 had debates about Islam with Daniel Now, with a Jazz 145 00:09:14.639 --> 00:09:17.039 and with other people online. You have been hosting debates 146 00:09:17.039 --> 00:09:19.200 on your own channel, which I've seen, which seems to 147 00:09:19.200 --> 00:09:23.720 be doing quite well. We had conversations you and I 148 00:09:23.759 --> 00:09:28.480 about Islam in the past. What is your current impression 149 00:09:29.039 --> 00:09:32.159 of Islam and how did it change over time? 150 00:09:33.240 --> 00:09:35.559 Yeah, I would say if you go back eight or 151 00:09:35.559 --> 00:09:39.759 ten years ago, I knew a lot about Christian theology, 152 00:09:41.600 --> 00:09:45.440 and I know a lot about the inter historical disputes 153 00:09:45.480 --> 00:09:48.360 amongst Christian groups and whatnot church history, but I didn't 154 00:09:48.399 --> 00:09:52.440 really know much about Islam at all, and so I 155 00:09:52.480 --> 00:09:55.080 don't even remember how the Islami debates started happening. I 156 00:09:55.120 --> 00:09:57.039 think I had a couple of friends, the guys that 157 00:09:57.120 --> 00:09:59.720 run Orthodox sha Hata. They were like, hey, they were 158 00:09:59.759 --> 00:10:01.480 part of the discord. They said, why don't you start 159 00:10:01.600 --> 00:10:04.600 debating Muslims because we've got a lot of Muslims coming 160 00:10:04.600 --> 00:10:08.759 into the UK, come into Europe. It's really changing the 161 00:10:08.799 --> 00:10:12.240 face of Europe. So this might actually be the future. 162 00:10:12.799 --> 00:10:15.840 Because I spent so much time debating Roman Catholics so 163 00:10:16.120 --> 00:10:19.519 and Protestant So I think the first debate we did 164 00:10:19.679 --> 00:10:21.960 was kind of a so called debate. It was it 165 00:10:22.000 --> 00:10:24.639 was an no Zombga four, and then it was Paul Williams, 166 00:10:24.679 --> 00:10:27.120 and then it was Shabiri Le, then it was Shaike 167 00:10:27.200 --> 00:10:30.399 azer rashid Uh, and then it was I'm saying the 168 00:10:30.480 --> 00:10:32.840 big the big name, big name Muslims. And then it 169 00:10:32.879 --> 00:10:37.000 was Daniel and then Jake, and then it Jaws and Daniel. 170 00:10:37.039 --> 00:10:40.480 So uh, it's kind in the Muslim lantern. So it's 171 00:10:40.559 --> 00:10:43.559 kind of a snowball thing that wasn't really a planned 172 00:10:43.679 --> 00:10:46.080 but in that time. And I still want to call 173 00:10:46.080 --> 00:10:48.279 myself an expert on Islam, but I've learned a lot. 174 00:10:48.559 --> 00:10:50.320 I've learned a lot from you learned a lot from 175 00:10:50.360 --> 00:10:55.000 from Sam and many other people. My impression now, maybe 176 00:10:55.039 --> 00:10:58.039 say compared to ten years ago, is that it's a 177 00:10:58.039 --> 00:11:03.399 lot more of a cobbled together hodgepodge of varying traditions 178 00:11:03.440 --> 00:11:08.240 and ideas, and it's a lot more goofy than I 179 00:11:08.240 --> 00:11:12.159 originally thought I would have assumed, you know, ten years ago, well, 180 00:11:12.200 --> 00:11:16.120 they've got you know, Abacina, and they've got you know, 181 00:11:16.200 --> 00:11:19.720 even Seen, and they've got these high minded philosopher guys 182 00:11:19.720 --> 00:11:22.399 that people have heard AVOs. But then when you really 183 00:11:22.399 --> 00:11:25.679 get into, you know, what the texts of the Qur'an 184 00:11:25.799 --> 00:11:28.519 and these hadiths are all about, I think it becomes 185 00:11:28.559 --> 00:11:32.240 more and more kind of silly. And you notice the 186 00:11:32.279 --> 00:11:36.000 sort of outright contradictions, especially all of the reliance on 187 00:11:36.559 --> 00:11:42.440 prior textual traditions from Judaism and from Christianity. The more 188 00:11:42.480 --> 00:11:44.480 that you know those texts, and then the more that 189 00:11:44.519 --> 00:11:49.679 you see the chronic claims and texts, the more you 190 00:11:49.720 --> 00:11:54.519 see kind of how just cobbled together contradictory. So in summation, 191 00:11:54.600 --> 00:11:57.360 I would say, now I see it as kind of 192 00:11:57.399 --> 00:12:04.120 the perfect cult engineer to doup the Arab mind, honestly, 193 00:12:05.080 --> 00:12:06.840 and so I see I see it as a mix 194 00:12:06.879 --> 00:12:09.960 of Gnosticism. I see it as a mix of Talmudic ideas. 195 00:12:10.000 --> 00:12:13.440 I see it as a mix of Christian texts, particularly 196 00:12:13.519 --> 00:12:17.759 arian and Historian Christianity. I see it as a borrowing 197 00:12:17.879 --> 00:12:21.759 even from Greek philosophy. I had a recent discussion with 198 00:12:21.840 --> 00:12:26.600 a couple of people from the Shia tradition, and from 199 00:12:26.679 --> 00:12:30.519 their argumentation, the the guy was literally saying, yeah, everything 200 00:12:30.519 --> 00:12:33.759 that's in the Koran is ultimately neoplatonism, but that's not 201 00:12:33.960 --> 00:12:38.960 from the Neoplatonists, is from the Qoran. In other words, 202 00:12:39.000 --> 00:12:41.320 it's it's like a rip off. It's like we rip 203 00:12:41.360 --> 00:12:44.159 off the Bible, but it's from the Koran, not from 204 00:12:44.159 --> 00:12:46.639 the Bible. We rip off the Torah, but it's from 205 00:12:46.879 --> 00:12:49.080 the Qoran, not from the Court. We rip off the 206 00:12:49.120 --> 00:12:51.799 Greek philosophers, but it's actually from the Koran, not from 207 00:12:51.799 --> 00:12:53.360 the Greek. As you see what I'm saying, there's a 208 00:12:53.360 --> 00:12:57.159 pattern here of copy paste, copy paste, copy paste, copy paste, 209 00:12:57.600 --> 00:13:00.679 put this thing together in a book, the thing, and 210 00:13:00.720 --> 00:13:04.720 then but it's not from anything before. It's it's this, 211 00:13:04.720 --> 00:13:06.440 this is the real true origin. 212 00:13:07.360 --> 00:13:10.080 That's very very coreedient, right. It's it's like if I 213 00:13:10.080 --> 00:13:12.720 write a book today and say that and claim that 214 00:13:12.799 --> 00:13:16.759 it is actually from Allah who visited me after one 215 00:13:17.200 --> 00:13:20.240 four hundred years to tell me that Muhamma did a 216 00:13:20.240 --> 00:13:24.440 completely different message which was unfortunately distorted and perverted by 217 00:13:24.480 --> 00:13:28.759 the Muslims who followed after him, and here is what 218 00:13:28.799 --> 00:13:30.559 he tells me. And then I just write a bunch 219 00:13:30.639 --> 00:13:33.000 of stuff that I based on on the Quran, on 220 00:13:33.080 --> 00:13:37.799 different sources, but claim that this is all completely totally original. 221 00:13:38.919 --> 00:13:43.200 It's it is kind of ridiculous. There is a there, 222 00:13:43.480 --> 00:13:46.960 there is something that you said which is which I 223 00:13:47.000 --> 00:13:50.480 can resonate with it. That's that's usually how I describe Islam, 224 00:13:50.600 --> 00:13:53.840 like it's coupled together with from different from different traditions 225 00:13:53.840 --> 00:13:57.679 and sources and all that. I mean, over the years, 226 00:13:57.759 --> 00:14:01.759 I have pretty much I would say, come to the 227 00:14:01.840 --> 00:14:04.080 to the to the to the idea, to the conclusion 228 00:14:04.200 --> 00:14:07.960 and the argument that that Islam is basically a a 229 00:14:08.000 --> 00:14:13.200 polytheistic religion, and culture that came out of a polytheistic 230 00:14:13.279 --> 00:14:19.200 pagan Arab region. But then because Muhammad was apparently so 231 00:14:19.320 --> 00:14:22.240 much you know, he he looked up to Christians and Jews. 232 00:14:22.279 --> 00:14:25.399 Initially he wanted to adopt their beliefs and their traditions 233 00:14:25.399 --> 00:14:28.279 as much as much as possible, but then adopted things 234 00:14:28.279 --> 00:14:34.759 that he never really understood and adopted misunderstandings, and aside 235 00:14:34.759 --> 00:14:38.679 from that, also adopted stories about For example, I'm not 236 00:14:38.679 --> 00:14:40.799 sure if you if you have come across the whole 237 00:14:41.120 --> 00:14:44.320 narrative of Hul Karnaine in the Quran that this is 238 00:14:44.360 --> 00:14:49.039 a character named little Karnane. He is. He is identified 239 00:14:49.039 --> 00:14:53.919 as Alexander the Great. So the Quran mentions Alexander the 240 00:14:53.919 --> 00:14:57.360 Great uh as little Karnaan, which means the too horned one. 241 00:14:57.759 --> 00:15:00.399 And this just happens because some people will come to 242 00:15:00.519 --> 00:15:03.399 Muhammad and ask him about a little Karnate and he's like, uh, 243 00:15:04.120 --> 00:15:08.440 I'll get back to you. So something happens then in 244 00:15:09.240 --> 00:15:11.600 the in the meantime, he gets his information about this 245 00:15:12.399 --> 00:15:14.600 Alexander the Great that he doesn't know much about. And 246 00:15:14.600 --> 00:15:18.559 then he comes back and he starts reciting revelations from 247 00:15:18.600 --> 00:15:23.879 Allah about how Litul Karnate was a was was a 248 00:15:24.000 --> 00:15:28.240 very mighty person guided by Allah, and he went to 249 00:15:28.320 --> 00:15:30.679 the very west of the world and to the very east, 250 00:15:30.679 --> 00:15:32.679 and he saw the sun setting in a muddy spring 251 00:15:33.159 --> 00:15:36.960 and saw other people that the sun was rising, uh, 252 00:15:37.080 --> 00:15:39.840 you know above, and they had no protection against it. 253 00:15:40.399 --> 00:15:42.440 And I don't know pretty pretty much that he was 254 00:15:42.480 --> 00:15:44.559 a servant of Allah and a good guy, which is 255 00:15:44.639 --> 00:15:47.000 just a very strange thing, because Alexander the Great was 256 00:15:47.919 --> 00:15:52.519 anything but a good guy in any morningstic sense. 257 00:15:52.600 --> 00:15:52.879 He was. 258 00:15:53.799 --> 00:15:57.519 He was a a syncretic polytheist guy who declared himself God, 259 00:15:58.200 --> 00:15:59.159 uh yeah, which. 260 00:15:58.960 --> 00:16:01.559 Is actually the I mean, even if you're a liberal. 261 00:16:01.679 --> 00:16:03.320 A lot of people think the Book of Daniel is 262 00:16:03.399 --> 00:16:09.279 talking about the Greeks in that time period, particularly Alexander 263 00:16:09.519 --> 00:16:14.360 and then his his one of his generals, Antiochus apefans Is, 264 00:16:14.399 --> 00:16:18.039 who defiles the Jewish temple during the Macabean period. So 265 00:16:18.159 --> 00:16:20.840 that's again another irony that you know, the Biblical Revelation 266 00:16:21.000 --> 00:16:28.759 describes that as a pagan, polytheistic Alexander antiochis culture. Very 267 00:16:28.799 --> 00:16:31.759 odd they would be described as as a monotheis. 268 00:16:32.279 --> 00:16:34.120 Yeah, I think you should look into that. It's in 269 00:16:34.480 --> 00:16:38.919 chapter eighteen of the Quran that has Sura cuff that 270 00:16:39.120 --> 00:16:43.919 has an account of the Seven Sleepers, which is also 271 00:16:44.000 --> 00:16:47.320 taken from from Christians. And then after that it goes 272 00:16:47.360 --> 00:16:50.039 into the whole Alexander the Great story, which is which 273 00:16:50.120 --> 00:16:53.159 is very very funny. We even have a what's his name? 274 00:16:54.639 --> 00:16:59.919 Some Italian ex isis jihadiest guy who when he was 275 00:17:00.080 --> 00:17:07.039 in prison, learned about the Alexander romance and old myths 276 00:17:07.039 --> 00:17:09.559 about Alexander the Great and then he noticed, wait a minute, 277 00:17:09.680 --> 00:17:12.640 this sounds oddly similar to what I read in the Quran. 278 00:17:13.039 --> 00:17:15.279 And then he finds out that these stories came before 279 00:17:15.319 --> 00:17:17.960 the Quran, and then he thinks this does not make sense, 280 00:17:18.000 --> 00:17:22.079 so he ends up leaving Islam. This hardcoregi hotis to 281 00:17:23.400 --> 00:17:28.000 it's I think Antonio something, sar Antonio char Antonio something 282 00:17:28.079 --> 00:17:28.200 like that. 283 00:17:28.480 --> 00:17:30.200 So listen to the question I want to I want 284 00:17:30.240 --> 00:17:32.759 to ask you because this is a pattern I've noticed, 285 00:17:32.759 --> 00:17:35.119 And when this comes up in the live stream debates 286 00:17:35.160 --> 00:17:38.160 that we do, I'm never actually sure what they what 287 00:17:38.599 --> 00:17:41.599 they actually think like. It seems to be the case 288 00:17:41.720 --> 00:17:45.160 that they either don't recognize or care that many of 289 00:17:45.200 --> 00:17:48.440 these stories, like if you read the Gabriel site, Reynolds book, 290 00:17:48.759 --> 00:17:51.119 he lists about I don't know, four or five different 291 00:17:51.720 --> 00:17:57.039 texts that were like sudabergrafa or gnostic texts that appear 292 00:17:57.319 --> 00:18:00.200 in different forms in different ways in the Quran. And 293 00:18:00.680 --> 00:18:03.680 I'm what I'm wondering is like, do they not admit 294 00:18:03.960 --> 00:18:07.319 that these things came before or do they think that no, 295 00:18:07.640 --> 00:18:09.960 it doesn't even matter that it came before, because like 296 00:18:09.960 --> 00:18:12.599 when I was talking to that guy about neoplatonism and 297 00:18:12.640 --> 00:18:14.920 he's like, no, well, Lecorn is basically teaching platonism, And 298 00:18:15.000 --> 00:18:18.680 I'm like, but wouldn't neoplatonism be where the Quran is 299 00:18:18.799 --> 00:18:20.759 getting that if that's the case, and it's like, no, 300 00:18:20.880 --> 00:18:23.680 it's actually new to the Kurn or Greek atomism, right, 301 00:18:23.680 --> 00:18:26.599 a lot of the Suns are atomists. And it's like, well, 302 00:18:26.599 --> 00:18:29.559 you know the Greeks taught atomism. No, but it's in 303 00:18:29.599 --> 00:18:30.000 the Koran. 304 00:18:30.799 --> 00:18:34.359 Yeah, yeah, well it's the thinking evolves evolved to very 305 00:18:34.440 --> 00:18:38.039 much over time. Today. Generally, the response that you get 306 00:18:38.119 --> 00:18:41.119 when you point out that that's lots of these things 307 00:18:41.400 --> 00:18:44.440 come to the Quran from prior sources. What are these 308 00:18:44.480 --> 00:18:47.920 sources are actually correct on these things are not? Uh, 309 00:18:48.200 --> 00:18:50.720 they will ignore your explanation and then you know, bring 310 00:18:50.759 --> 00:18:54.839 an alternative explanation, or simply argue that Allat knows best, 311 00:18:54.880 --> 00:18:56.799 and he's he's the one who sent the Quran, and 312 00:18:56.880 --> 00:18:58.440 he knows what he's talking about. It's not for us 313 00:18:58.519 --> 00:19:01.000 to question. This is, for example, something that's happened when 314 00:19:01.039 --> 00:19:03.720 I I made a video of talking about the seven 315 00:19:03.759 --> 00:19:06.599 Sleepers narrative and all that and how the Quran twisted 316 00:19:06.799 --> 00:19:09.599 and how if we accept that the seven sleeper story 317 00:19:09.680 --> 00:19:12.000 is authentic and that the Koran acknowledges to it, then 318 00:19:12.039 --> 00:19:14.720 we have to accept that the that the Triune God 319 00:19:14.880 --> 00:19:18.519 is the true God and Christian true. And then when 320 00:19:18.559 --> 00:19:22.759 I do that, they they start it starts getting completely 321 00:19:22.839 --> 00:19:26.599 fallacious about how this It doesn't have to go back 322 00:19:26.640 --> 00:19:29.880 to the Christian story. It might be a different story. Uh, 323 00:19:30.319 --> 00:19:32.079 it might be the true story. It might be that 324 00:19:32.160 --> 00:19:35.920 the Christians took it, you know, wrongfully from somewhere else. 325 00:19:36.000 --> 00:19:38.960 It was actually a real story about something good, and 326 00:19:39.880 --> 00:19:42.279 in the end we should not question it because Alano's best. 327 00:19:42.400 --> 00:19:45.119 This is usually the some of the thoughts, some of 328 00:19:45.160 --> 00:19:46.799 the responses that will that they will, that they will 329 00:19:46.839 --> 00:19:50.000 give to these things. Similar to Alexander the Great, initially 330 00:19:50.160 --> 00:19:54.599 within the first centuries, Muslims acknowledged generally that the references 331 00:19:54.680 --> 00:19:57.640 were going where about Alexander the Great. It has become 332 00:19:58.200 --> 00:20:02.759 the new thing lately more recently, to say, no, it's 333 00:20:02.839 --> 00:20:04.880 not Alexander the Grade. It is somebody else. We don't 334 00:20:04.920 --> 00:20:08.000 know who it is, and we can't know because it 335 00:20:08.079 --> 00:20:10.680 is not specified, But it's probably not Alexander the Great, 336 00:20:10.720 --> 00:20:13.160 given the revelations that we have now about who he 337 00:20:13.240 --> 00:20:16.279 actually was. But this is just the thing, like the 338 00:20:16.440 --> 00:20:22.079 understanding develops and is corrupted by Muslims as they further 339 00:20:22.240 --> 00:20:25.079 understand how problematic it actually is what they are presenting 340 00:20:25.799 --> 00:20:30.319 to us, such as that the grind takes stories inappropriately, 341 00:20:32.079 --> 00:20:40.839 or ideas inappropriately, or twists stories into being. There's lots 342 00:20:40.880 --> 00:20:43.559 we can talk about. Well, what do you think going forward? 343 00:20:43.559 --> 00:20:45.640 You to move on one other question on that topic. 344 00:20:46.079 --> 00:20:48.480 I forgot to mention when I was talking about influences, 345 00:20:49.599 --> 00:20:53.599 the pre Islamic Arab paganism is also, I think pretty 346 00:20:53.640 --> 00:20:56.960 clearly obviously an influence. And I mean I'd heard people 347 00:20:57.000 --> 00:20:58.960 say that maybe ten years ago, but I never really 348 00:20:59.000 --> 00:21:02.480 looked into that. But I do think that's there within 349 00:21:02.559 --> 00:21:06.000 the tradition. I mean, you know, icons are idolatry, but 350 00:21:06.160 --> 00:21:08.680 you can kiss this black stone and it's not idolatry. 351 00:21:08.720 --> 00:21:10.480 So it's sort of it's it's a double standard. And 352 00:21:10.599 --> 00:21:12.440 why is it not all all Josha, Well, because it 353 00:21:12.519 --> 00:21:13.960 says so on the Hot Deaths that you can do it. 354 00:21:14.119 --> 00:21:17.400 So yeah, I think there's a lot of double standards, 355 00:21:17.440 --> 00:21:19.799 a lot of inconsistency. So my question to you would be, 356 00:21:20.519 --> 00:21:22.160 do you think and I think we talked about this 357 00:21:22.279 --> 00:21:25.279 last time we were we were discussing and you were 358 00:21:25.279 --> 00:21:29.160 talking about the killing all the pigs Hudith, do you 359 00:21:29.279 --> 00:21:32.599 think that it's a situation where you you had and 360 00:21:32.680 --> 00:21:34.279 I know we're kind of kind of speculating because we 361 00:21:34.279 --> 00:21:36.759 don't exactly know what was going on, but is it 362 00:21:37.039 --> 00:21:39.160 Is it a situation where you think Muhammad was like 363 00:21:39.319 --> 00:21:41.400 just sort of out of it and was just being 364 00:21:42.799 --> 00:21:48.519 influenced by his epilepsy and seizures, or do you think 365 00:21:48.559 --> 00:21:51.359 that he was really kind of like or maybe maybe 366 00:21:51.400 --> 00:21:53.079 even him and some of his crew, like, do you 367 00:21:53.119 --> 00:21:54.640 think it was a situation where they were trying to 368 00:21:55.200 --> 00:22:04.599 put together a religion that they could manipulate for warlord purposes, 369 00:22:04.960 --> 00:22:07.759 you know, for wealth purpose, for all kinds of purposes. 370 00:22:07.880 --> 00:22:11.839 Because even David Wood's recent video where he was talking 371 00:22:11.880 --> 00:22:14.480 about the places in the Chrome where it says, well, 372 00:22:14.519 --> 00:22:17.799 the Jews have the Hebrew Revelation and the Christians have 373 00:22:17.960 --> 00:22:21.079 a revelation in their tongue, this is the revelation for 374 00:22:21.359 --> 00:22:25.000 you Arab people. So it's it's almost like it was 375 00:22:25.039 --> 00:22:28.880 initially intended to be directed towards the Arab peoples as 376 00:22:29.000 --> 00:22:32.799 their version. Maybe that was early in the you know, 377 00:22:33.039 --> 00:22:35.759 Muhammed's campaigns or something like that, before it turns into 378 00:22:35.799 --> 00:22:37.680 you know, this is actually a worldwide conquest. 379 00:22:38.079 --> 00:22:43.039 Yeah, yeah, there there is two interesting topics here in 380 00:22:43.079 --> 00:22:46.359 two very very deep topics actually to go into, but 381 00:22:46.559 --> 00:22:48.839 one one which is the latter that you brought up, 382 00:22:49.519 --> 00:22:53.200 also based on what David Wood mentioned. So Mohammed initially 383 00:22:53.279 --> 00:22:57.920 did start out as merely a guy who is who 384 00:22:58.039 --> 00:23:03.640 is sent by the same God, also sent or revealed 385 00:23:03.759 --> 00:23:07.440 the Gospel in the Torah, as the Quran says, and 386 00:23:08.000 --> 00:23:11.079 Mohammad really did look up the Jews and Christians and 387 00:23:11.160 --> 00:23:14.000 wanted to adopt their beliefs and ideas and claim that 388 00:23:14.079 --> 00:23:16.359 he comes from the same God. But the thing is, 389 00:23:17.839 --> 00:23:22.799 if you analyze the Quran chronologically, the Quran barely ever 390 00:23:23.000 --> 00:23:25.720 even touches on Jews and Christians within the first ten 391 00:23:25.839 --> 00:23:30.680 years or so, until Mohammad goes flees his pagan environment 392 00:23:30.720 --> 00:23:33.160 in Mecca and goes to Medina, where he then encounters 393 00:23:33.319 --> 00:23:38.319 large Jewish tribes that basically builds the city, and as 394 00:23:38.359 --> 00:23:40.880 he interacts with them, the Quran suddenly starts focusing on 395 00:23:41.240 --> 00:23:44.799 Jews and Christians and their stories and beliefs. So it 396 00:23:44.920 --> 00:23:48.960 seems that the Quran's content is very very much influenced 397 00:23:49.039 --> 00:23:54.000 by whatever Mohammad is, where he's at, what is around him, 398 00:23:54.079 --> 00:23:57.680 what he interacts with, what is currently important to Mohammad's context, 399 00:23:58.039 --> 00:24:02.119 And initially he approaches them in a good way, like Jews, Christians, 400 00:24:02.160 --> 00:24:05.920 what's up, I'm just like you guys, you know, yeah, 401 00:24:06.079 --> 00:24:10.079 same team. Let's join together. And it even proposes in 402 00:24:10.160 --> 00:24:13.359 the beginning to the Jews and Christians let us come 403 00:24:13.440 --> 00:24:15.400 together to an agreement that there is no God but 404 00:24:15.519 --> 00:24:18.440 a line so on. But as he then finds out 405 00:24:18.519 --> 00:24:22.960 that the Jews don't really respect him at all and 406 00:24:23.039 --> 00:24:25.880 think actually that he's ridiculous and full of scrap, he 407 00:24:25.960 --> 00:24:28.119 starts getting more and more angry at them. Then he 408 00:24:29.240 --> 00:24:32.119 develops this idea that the Christians. The Jews are bad, 409 00:24:32.200 --> 00:24:34.519 but the Christians they are cool, They're good. Then the 410 00:24:34.599 --> 00:24:37.119 Christians start projecting him and then he's like, Okay, Christians 411 00:24:37.160 --> 00:24:42.279 are bad too, Christians will go to Hell. So but 412 00:24:42.440 --> 00:24:48.880 along those while having those developments, he simply takes. He 413 00:24:49.319 --> 00:24:52.640 absorbs whatever is, whatever he hears, and whatever is given 414 00:24:52.720 --> 00:24:55.519 to him. There is a I would say it is. 415 00:24:55.599 --> 00:24:58.599 It is quite mixed. What his motive is, what his 416 00:24:58.799 --> 00:25:02.119 reasoning is when he gets his his stories and beliefs 417 00:25:02.519 --> 00:25:04.720 into his own religion. I would say that there is 418 00:25:04.920 --> 00:25:09.039 very strong evidence that suggests that he had that he 419 00:25:09.119 --> 00:25:11.079 had some sort of some sort of epilepsy, that he 420 00:25:11.160 --> 00:25:15.799 had hallucinations. UH. Their early narratives that he would he 421 00:25:15.839 --> 00:25:18.759 would come back from seeing the angel Gabriel, and then 422 00:25:18.839 --> 00:25:20.960 he would be terrified and he would fall on the 423 00:25:21.000 --> 00:25:25.440 ground and start shaking and making loud noises and sweating. 424 00:25:27.519 --> 00:25:29.359 They would have to cover him up and he would 425 00:25:29.759 --> 00:25:32.240 make loud, snorting noises when he would get a revelation 426 00:25:32.359 --> 00:25:36.720 from Allah, which you know, sounds oddly like UH, a 427 00:25:36.839 --> 00:25:41.160 form of epilepsy. But it could very well be that 428 00:25:41.240 --> 00:25:45.119 he was actually deceived by his own by his own hallucinations, 429 00:25:45.160 --> 00:25:48.680 by his own insanities, and that he actually did believe 430 00:25:48.759 --> 00:25:52.200 that he was getting revelations from from from Allah. But 431 00:25:52.319 --> 00:25:56.279 he was also convinced by other people around him that 432 00:25:56.599 --> 00:26:01.799 you know, who helped him basically shame the narrative that 433 00:26:01.960 --> 00:26:06.279 he was getting from his from his from his Gibriel character. 434 00:26:07.519 --> 00:26:10.039 You have, for example, in the Quran multiple times people 435 00:26:10.119 --> 00:26:13.599 accusing him from taking stories from certain people around him, 436 00:26:14.200 --> 00:26:17.200 and they call him the ear, by which they mean 437 00:26:17.319 --> 00:26:20.480 that he just listens to somebody who comes to him 438 00:26:21.240 --> 00:26:24.079 and then takes whatever that person says and then includes 439 00:26:24.119 --> 00:26:26.960 it in his in his into his own religion, as 440 00:26:27.000 --> 00:26:31.799 if they were original stories. It's very hard to speculate 441 00:26:31.880 --> 00:26:35.240 and to figure out what exactly his motive was. But 442 00:26:36.400 --> 00:26:39.160 there are also instances, for example, where his dear friend 443 00:26:39.319 --> 00:26:44.440 and second Khalif Omar openly says in the Hadith he 444 00:26:44.559 --> 00:26:49.680 says that Allah agreed with me on three occasions. He says, 445 00:26:49.839 --> 00:26:53.400 this is a follower of the close follower of Muhammad. 446 00:26:54.160 --> 00:26:57.720 For example, he suggests when he sees that Muhammed's wives 447 00:26:57.799 --> 00:27:02.119 go to the bathroom out in the desert somewhere, he 448 00:27:03.119 --> 00:27:05.519 repeatedly tells him, I see you, I see you, you 449 00:27:05.599 --> 00:27:08.680 should be hiding very creepy. And then he goes to 450 00:27:08.799 --> 00:27:12.160 Mohamed and says he goes to Mohammed and says, Mohammed, 451 00:27:12.240 --> 00:27:14.440 cover your wife's up. They need to be covered up. 452 00:27:14.839 --> 00:27:16.839 And eventually Mohammed is like, okay, fine, and then he 453 00:27:16.960 --> 00:27:20.759 receives a revelation in which Allah says that they should 454 00:27:20.839 --> 00:27:23.319 not go outside anymore unless necessary, and that they should 455 00:27:23.319 --> 00:27:26.119 be covered up. And Omar goes, oh, good, Allah agrees 456 00:27:26.160 --> 00:27:30.519 with me. It seems that you know that these people 457 00:27:30.559 --> 00:27:34.680 around Mohammed have an influence on what Allah reveals to Mohammed, 458 00:27:35.160 --> 00:27:38.519 and Mohammad also does. And it's hard to speculate always 459 00:27:38.559 --> 00:27:42.599 whether Mohammad was deliberately making things up, whether others were 460 00:27:42.640 --> 00:27:44.799 in on it, or whether he was self deceived. 461 00:27:45.599 --> 00:27:48.079 Well, great parallel. I'm sure you've heard a million times, 462 00:27:48.160 --> 00:27:51.240 but you know it very much reminds me of Mormonism 463 00:27:51.279 --> 00:27:54.599 in the way Mormonism operated with you know, Joseph Smith, 464 00:27:54.680 --> 00:27:57.039 Brigham Young, you kind of have this inner core of 465 00:27:57.640 --> 00:28:02.200 the original Mormon crew. You know, they have these new revelations. 466 00:28:02.880 --> 00:28:06.480 They say that the prior revelation is fine except when 467 00:28:06.559 --> 00:28:09.400 it contradicts the new revelation. So it's really just the 468 00:28:09.519 --> 00:28:13.119 same circle that we find with the Islamic dilemma for Islam, 469 00:28:13.240 --> 00:28:16.480 for Muslims, you know, you've got the polygamy, you've got 470 00:28:16.559 --> 00:28:21.680 the weird polytheistic elements. In Mormonism. I mean, there's a 471 00:28:21.680 --> 00:28:24.799 lot of parallels there, but the patterns are always that 472 00:28:24.960 --> 00:28:29.119 you look back to the previous revelation only when it 473 00:28:29.200 --> 00:28:32.079 confirms the new revelation. And again in the case of 474 00:28:33.039 --> 00:28:36.400 Joseph Smith, I think there's multitudes of influences as well, 475 00:28:37.079 --> 00:28:39.200 and he seems to be similar to Muhammad as well. 476 00:28:39.240 --> 00:28:41.880 And what you're describing that he kind of hears all 477 00:28:42.000 --> 00:28:45.039 kinds of different things, because there's this story that Joseph 478 00:28:45.039 --> 00:28:47.839 Smith went to all the different denominations, and so he 479 00:28:47.960 --> 00:28:50.599 hears all these different stories and then he decides they're 480 00:28:50.599 --> 00:28:53.039 all wrong. He goes in the woods and praise, and 481 00:28:53.119 --> 00:28:56.079 then this angel appears to him, just like the angel 482 00:28:56.119 --> 00:28:59.160 appearing to Muhammad. And then there's a new revelation based 483 00:28:59.160 --> 00:29:02.119 on these new texts, and only the Book of Mormon 484 00:29:02.279 --> 00:29:05.079 is really the infallible text, and everything else has to 485 00:29:05.119 --> 00:29:07.880 be judged by it. So I mean patterns are the 486 00:29:07.960 --> 00:29:11.039 same for most cults. Actually, I would say, a lot 487 00:29:11.079 --> 00:29:13.599 of cults. But I think if you look at Mormonism 488 00:29:14.160 --> 00:29:18.480 just from that cultural perspective, it's really geared towards you know, 489 00:29:18.839 --> 00:29:25.400 eighteen hundreds, you know, prairie minded people moving west Islam 490 00:29:25.720 --> 00:29:30.240 very much oriented towards you know, seventh century Arabs. And 491 00:29:30.920 --> 00:29:32.720 what my next question to you would be, would that 492 00:29:32.799 --> 00:29:38.519 explain the seeming contradictions about what Mohammad says about Christians 493 00:29:38.559 --> 00:29:41.680 and Jews, because it seems like at times it sounds 494 00:29:41.720 --> 00:29:45.119 like we're all people of the book. We all are fine. 495 00:29:45.319 --> 00:29:48.759 Let the Jews judge by the Torah. Christians can go 496 00:29:48.880 --> 00:29:51.680 judge by their revelation. But then later we get this, 497 00:29:52.440 --> 00:29:55.440 but also, if you're a Trinitarian, you're going to hell fire, right. 498 00:29:56.119 --> 00:30:00.839 Yeah, yeah. I actually put together a list of Quran 499 00:30:01.000 --> 00:30:05.799 verses about all Quran verses that address Christians or that 500 00:30:05.960 --> 00:30:10.920 mentioned Christians directly in chronological order, and you can observe 501 00:30:10.960 --> 00:30:14.400 a very very clear pattern there at the beginning, very 502 00:30:15.200 --> 00:30:19.599 very peaceful and you know, reconciliatory, and then it gets 503 00:30:19.680 --> 00:30:22.720 more like, okay, you are wrong, but we are still okay, 504 00:30:23.319 --> 00:30:26.640 you are totally wrong. You should follow your book instead 505 00:30:26.640 --> 00:30:31.680 of making up things until Finally, the final chapter of 506 00:30:31.759 --> 00:30:35.799 the Quran in chronological order is that is chapter nine, 507 00:30:36.160 --> 00:30:40.559 where the Quran completely shifts to Christianity is unacceptable, it 508 00:30:40.640 --> 00:30:43.359 will not be accepted. You have to become Muslims or else. 509 00:30:44.079 --> 00:30:48.240 And then finally you have chapter nine, verse twenty nine 510 00:30:48.359 --> 00:30:51.240 and thirty, where it says fight those who do not 511 00:30:51.319 --> 00:30:53.480 believe in Aligned as Messenger, who do not adopt the 512 00:30:53.519 --> 00:30:57.680 religion of truth, meaning Islam, among those who you know, 513 00:30:57.839 --> 00:31:00.839 among the people of the scripture. So Jews Christians who 514 00:31:00.920 --> 00:31:04.240 do not adopt Islam are now declared enemies and are 515 00:31:04.279 --> 00:31:07.440 supposed to be fought and subjugated and humiliated. And then 516 00:31:07.480 --> 00:31:11.519 it further says that that this is because of their 517 00:31:11.720 --> 00:31:15.279 of their false beliefs, of their their wicked and false 518 00:31:15.359 --> 00:31:18.200 and corrupt beliefs, and Allah will punish them and curse 519 00:31:18.240 --> 00:31:22.759 them and so on. So that is indeed the explanation 520 00:31:22.920 --> 00:31:26.200 for it. There are some people who, of course choose 521 00:31:26.319 --> 00:31:30.559 to point out the good verses and leave out the padlines. 522 00:31:30.920 --> 00:31:32.759 But if you read it all in context, it is 523 00:31:32.920 --> 00:31:36.720 just a development of Muhammed's perception of Jews and Christians. 524 00:31:37.400 --> 00:31:39.880 Initially he thought they were okay, then later as they 525 00:31:39.920 --> 00:31:42.160 didn't accept him and saw it the ignorance in him. 526 00:31:42.279 --> 00:31:44.880 He turned more and more against them and declared war 527 00:31:44.960 --> 00:31:45.240 on them. 528 00:31:45.599 --> 00:31:47.160 Yeah, you have people on the left a lot of 529 00:31:47.240 --> 00:31:49.559 times that think that, you know, Islam is their ally. 530 00:31:49.759 --> 00:31:52.119 They only pick out the verses that are early on, 531 00:31:52.319 --> 00:31:54.119 like you're talking about well, look see it had a 532 00:31:54.160 --> 00:31:55.680 guy come on the stream the other day and he's like, 533 00:31:55.720 --> 00:31:59.000 you're totally wrong. Islam has no you know, anti Christian, 534 00:31:59.039 --> 00:32:02.680 anti Jewish animus. It's only conciliatory. And I'm like, you're 535 00:32:02.720 --> 00:32:05.319 just using the ones the tacks that are early on, 536 00:32:05.480 --> 00:32:09.039 you're not using the other text. So yeah, I think 537 00:32:09.079 --> 00:32:11.960 that's a But again, that's why it's a it's a 538 00:32:12.119 --> 00:32:18.440 very crafty book because it allows let's say you're a 539 00:32:18.559 --> 00:32:22.319 coliaf in the Middle Ages sometime or something, and let's 540 00:32:22.319 --> 00:32:24.920 say you want to go to war against Christians or Jews. 541 00:32:25.359 --> 00:32:28.240 Well you've got ready made passages that would support going 542 00:32:28.319 --> 00:32:30.920 to war. Let's say you're in a political situation where 543 00:32:30.960 --> 00:32:32.839 you need peace, Well you've got ready made passages you 544 00:32:32.880 --> 00:32:35.599 can cite about peace. So it's a it's useful for 545 00:32:35.880 --> 00:32:36.960 what's a nesser at the. 546 00:32:37.000 --> 00:32:42.119 Time, exactly exactly, And they used this all this was 547 00:32:42.160 --> 00:32:45.880 always historically very important just to put on the screen. 548 00:32:45.960 --> 00:32:50.400 Here the verse nine nine, which is I think my 549 00:32:50.559 --> 00:32:53.440 go to verse when it comes to explaining the Islamic 550 00:32:53.559 --> 00:32:58.920 stance on non believers, specifically Jews and Christians. There are others, 551 00:32:59.000 --> 00:33:03.240 such as ninety eight six, which says explicitly that Jews 552 00:33:03.319 --> 00:33:07.400 and Christians and polytheists who don't believe in Islam are 553 00:33:07.480 --> 00:33:10.000 the worst of creatures and Muslims are the best of creatures. 554 00:33:10.480 --> 00:33:14.279 But here nine to twenty nine says fight against those 555 00:33:14.319 --> 00:33:16.200 who do not believe in a law or in the 556 00:33:16.279 --> 00:33:19.400 last Day, and who do not consider unlawful what aligned 557 00:33:19.400 --> 00:33:21.759 as messenger have made unlawful, and who do not adopt 558 00:33:21.880 --> 00:33:24.839 the religion of truth that is Islam from those who 559 00:33:24.880 --> 00:33:27.799 were given the Scripture. So Jews and Christians, if they 560 00:33:27.839 --> 00:33:32.680 don't adopt Islam, fight them, fight until they give the jizia, 561 00:33:32.799 --> 00:33:37.440 which is protection money willingly while they are humbled. And 562 00:33:37.559 --> 00:33:40.000 there are people who will twist what jiza actually is 563 00:33:40.079 --> 00:33:41.759 and they say, oh, it's just a tax man, just 564 00:33:41.799 --> 00:33:45.319 a tax But it's quite clear historically jisea is specifically 565 00:33:45.359 --> 00:33:49.160 for disbelievers. It is supposed to be taken from those 566 00:33:49.319 --> 00:33:52.119 who want to live as subjects of Muslims and not 567 00:33:52.240 --> 00:33:55.039 convert to Islam. If they fail to give it, then 568 00:33:55.039 --> 00:33:58.000 they are fair game. So this is basically protection money. 569 00:33:58.359 --> 00:34:00.559 That's literally what it is. 570 00:34:01.079 --> 00:34:01.200 Yea. 571 00:34:02.000 --> 00:34:05.000 And further, I had this one noted, what was the 572 00:34:05.079 --> 00:34:06.519 other t actually said something. 573 00:34:07.799 --> 00:34:08.119 Oh. 574 00:34:11.559 --> 00:34:15.480 Ninety eight verse six, that's what I mentioned, which would 575 00:34:15.519 --> 00:34:19.400 be this one. Indeed, they who disbelieve among the people 576 00:34:19.440 --> 00:34:21.320 of the Scripture and the polytheists will be in the 577 00:34:21.440 --> 00:34:24.519 fire of hell abiding eternally they're in. Those are the 578 00:34:24.599 --> 00:34:28.199 worst of creatures. And it further goes on saying, indeed, 579 00:34:28.239 --> 00:34:31.199 they who know, indeed, they who have believed in don 580 00:34:31.239 --> 00:34:34.079 Wright's deeds, those are the best of creatures. And if 581 00:34:34.119 --> 00:34:36.719 you read the whole chapter, which is a very short 582 00:34:36.840 --> 00:34:42.440 chapter within context, it does indeed talk about those Christians 583 00:34:42.480 --> 00:34:45.599 and Jews who refused to accept Muhammad as true messenger. 584 00:34:46.960 --> 00:34:50.880 So that's basically what this is about, that they were 585 00:34:50.960 --> 00:34:56.280 cool until Muhammad arrived. Yeah right, yeah, yeah, so yeah, 586 00:34:56.840 --> 00:35:05.199 what But enough about being so terribly islamophobic. What do 587 00:35:05.320 --> 00:35:09.679 you think with all your interactions that you've had, I'm 588 00:35:09.719 --> 00:35:13.000 sure you also had some good impressions of Islam. So 589 00:35:13.639 --> 00:35:17.599 what do you think is actually a good Islamic argument 590 00:35:17.719 --> 00:35:18.280 that you've heard? 591 00:35:20.800 --> 00:35:24.320 Hmmm, that is a tough question, I know, do you 592 00:35:24.440 --> 00:35:29.360 mean the best, which opponent performed the best, or what 593 00:35:29.639 --> 00:35:31.719 is if I were to steal man Islam their best 594 00:35:31.880 --> 00:35:32.880 argument overall. 595 00:35:33.960 --> 00:35:37.000 The second one or yeah? Yeah, So something that that 596 00:35:37.320 --> 00:35:43.079 sounds kind of strong ish or strongest given the standards 597 00:35:43.079 --> 00:35:48.760 of Islam, and that is actually a good argument for Islam. 598 00:35:50.960 --> 00:35:53.000 I don't think it's a good argument, but I think 599 00:35:53.039 --> 00:35:58.119 it's the most successful argument. Probably is the fact that 600 00:35:59.199 --> 00:36:05.079 they will heal to the assumption of generic Unitarianism and 601 00:36:05.159 --> 00:36:09.000 the idea that, well, we know, the Shamas is one God. 602 00:36:10.400 --> 00:36:14.519 Did an Abraham worship one God? Jesus believed in one God? 603 00:36:14.679 --> 00:36:18.599 And so I think that's the most successful argument. I 604 00:36:18.679 --> 00:36:23.039 don't because the Trinity is a complex doctrine. I don't 605 00:36:23.039 --> 00:36:24.920 think it's a good argument. I think that when you 606 00:36:25.599 --> 00:36:28.199 look at the texts, it's very easy to see that 607 00:36:28.320 --> 00:36:32.000 the Torah, the prophets they do teach more than a 608 00:36:32.159 --> 00:36:35.679 bearer generic Unitarian deity. But I think that for most 609 00:36:35.719 --> 00:36:38.159 people who are not very well studying the scriptures, they 610 00:36:38.199 --> 00:36:39.960 don't know their Bible very well. That can be a 611 00:36:40.079 --> 00:36:43.320 very convincing argument, and then they always try to sort 612 00:36:43.320 --> 00:36:45.639 of put us on the defensive as if we have, 613 00:36:46.480 --> 00:36:50.679 you know, an insurmountable challenge in trying to demonstrate the Trinity. 614 00:36:51.239 --> 00:36:53.920 And one way they also are successful in that is 615 00:36:54.000 --> 00:36:56.360 that they always try to assume that you're going to 616 00:36:56.519 --> 00:37:00.599 prove or disprove this by one text, one verse. And 617 00:37:00.800 --> 00:37:03.920 that's not really fair, first of all, because they expect 618 00:37:04.039 --> 00:37:08.480 us to not, you know, demand they prove a doctrine 619 00:37:08.519 --> 00:37:11.000 from one verse in the Koran. But yet we have 620 00:37:11.159 --> 00:37:14.400 this burden of proof that the Trinity or Jesus being 621 00:37:14.440 --> 00:37:17.440 God has to be this verse, or Jesus has to 622 00:37:17.519 --> 00:37:21.320 say I am you know, I am God, or I 623 00:37:21.400 --> 00:37:25.320 am Yahweh, or you must believe in the trinity. What 624 00:37:25.440 --> 00:37:29.320 are Bibles say trinity? So those are you know, unrealistic 625 00:37:29.440 --> 00:37:33.639 expectations for how you know, we don't believe that that's 626 00:37:33.679 --> 00:37:35.320 how you would go about proving it. And by the way, 627 00:37:35.320 --> 00:37:37.239 you don't believe that about your books. I think those 628 00:37:37.320 --> 00:37:40.320 are the most successful arguments I've seen that them have. 629 00:37:41.000 --> 00:37:45.719 Maybe second would be you know, challenges about how can 630 00:37:45.840 --> 00:37:49.400 Christ be fully god fully divine? You know, they always 631 00:37:49.440 --> 00:37:51.760 have these assumptions about what that must mean. It must 632 00:37:51.880 --> 00:37:54.639 mean that if there's an incarnation, it must mean that 633 00:37:54.760 --> 00:37:57.480 God changed. It must mean that, you know, there's some 634 00:37:57.639 --> 00:38:00.840 sort of alteration in the divine nature or something like that. 635 00:38:01.000 --> 00:38:05.159 Those I think are successful, I'm not. I mean, I'm 636 00:38:05.199 --> 00:38:07.599 being honest. I'm trying to think of what would be 637 00:38:07.679 --> 00:38:11.079 the best argument that they have. I think those are 638 00:38:11.079 --> 00:38:13.480 the most successful, but I don't think they're very good arguments. 639 00:38:13.800 --> 00:38:16.239 I can't. Yeah, I can't really think of what is 640 00:38:17.280 --> 00:38:19.599 how I could steal men Islam other than just that 641 00:38:19.760 --> 00:38:24.159 most people tend to assume that mono mono theism, which 642 00:38:24.159 --> 00:38:28.159 actually really late term, must mean unitarianism. 643 00:38:29.199 --> 00:38:33.320 It's it's a funny thing. I myself, I just asked 644 00:38:33.320 --> 00:38:35.559 you this question, But when somebody asks me this question, 645 00:38:35.679 --> 00:38:39.719 I just, I honestly don't know what to say, because 646 00:38:40.719 --> 00:38:45.639 I have my disagreements with with a purely atheistic perspective 647 00:38:46.480 --> 00:38:50.679 and the purely Christian perspective. But if somebody asked me, uh, 648 00:38:51.119 --> 00:38:53.199 you know, strong arguments for either one, I would be 649 00:38:53.239 --> 00:38:56.360 happily present those. But if somebody asked me about that 650 00:38:56.440 --> 00:38:59.079 about Islam, it's just I don't know, because it's all 651 00:38:59.199 --> 00:38:59.760 quite pathetic. 652 00:39:00.559 --> 00:39:03.840 Pretty well, I think maybe the best argument I could 653 00:39:03.880 --> 00:39:07.440 say that I've heard maybe doctor Khalil has an interesting 654 00:39:07.559 --> 00:39:12.400 take because he'll go into like neo platonism. But I mean, 655 00:39:12.440 --> 00:39:14.159 I just really I find it really hard to believe 656 00:39:14.239 --> 00:39:21.239 that I'm supposed to think that unlettered, illiterate Arab guys 657 00:39:21.320 --> 00:39:25.760 in the in the seventh century are actually really teaching neoplatonism. 658 00:39:26.360 --> 00:39:28.599 Yeah, yeah, I mean that to me, that's really kind 659 00:39:28.639 --> 00:39:31.719 of out language. Also considering the fact that if you 660 00:39:31.880 --> 00:39:36.079 actually look into the earliest accounts of what people at 661 00:39:36.119 --> 00:39:39.840 that time believed, if you go by Muslim standards, who 662 00:39:39.920 --> 00:39:44.519 will often appeal to reports by early Muslim scholars about 663 00:39:44.920 --> 00:39:50.320 the earliest beliefs of Muslims, you will find that according 664 00:39:50.320 --> 00:39:54.800 to the traditions, according to the earliest exegetes, the companions 665 00:39:54.880 --> 00:40:00.000 of Muhammad believed that the world was was a shape 666 00:40:00.000 --> 00:40:04.559 making grounds on the back of a whale that swims 667 00:40:04.639 --> 00:40:07.760 on the on the on the on the water. Well, yeah, okay, 668 00:40:09.119 --> 00:40:12.119 that Allah put the mountains into the earth in order 669 00:40:12.159 --> 00:40:15.000 to stabilize it and prevent it from shaking, but that 670 00:40:15.159 --> 00:40:18.039 this whale moves around and sometimes that causes you know, 671 00:40:18.400 --> 00:40:19.559 earthquakes and things like that. 672 00:40:19.679 --> 00:40:22.039 So this is funny because I think this hits on 673 00:40:22.119 --> 00:40:23.960 a key point here that we brought up last time 674 00:40:24.000 --> 00:40:25.840 we were talking, which is when you were talking about 675 00:40:25.840 --> 00:40:29.440 the pigs. My assumption was, well, surely that's some sort 676 00:40:29.440 --> 00:40:31.880 of like symbolic language, because I think, you know, in 677 00:40:32.000 --> 00:40:34.280 terms of Jewish and Christian ex to Jesus, there's a 678 00:40:34.360 --> 00:40:40.719 recognition of symbolism, metaphor, you know, all types of different 679 00:40:40.840 --> 00:40:45.039 levels of interpretation of the text. But in early especially 680 00:40:45.039 --> 00:40:48.039 in early Islam, no, it's literally just saying that there's 681 00:40:48.119 --> 00:40:50.960 no mystical meanings. And so if you were to take 682 00:40:51.000 --> 00:40:54.000 say a doctor Khalil position where he wants and he's 683 00:40:54.119 --> 00:40:58.360 very emphatic that in the Shia tradition they believe, like 684 00:40:58.480 --> 00:41:01.480 Christians and Jews, that they're sort of multiple layers of 685 00:41:01.599 --> 00:41:04.039 meaning to the text. Is a deeper sort of allegorical 686 00:41:04.159 --> 00:41:06.960 or spiritual meaning to a lot of these texts. Now, look, 687 00:41:07.519 --> 00:41:10.400 if that's the case, if there's these deeper esoteric meanings, 688 00:41:10.960 --> 00:41:14.039 and if the chron is really teaching me neo platonism, 689 00:41:14.519 --> 00:41:17.679 I would expect that they would get the basics and 690 00:41:17.800 --> 00:41:21.719 the historical simple things right. If there's these deeper meanings, 691 00:41:21.880 --> 00:41:25.280 but if it doesn't get the basic facts about what 692 00:41:25.440 --> 00:41:29.159 prior revelation said about. For example, you know, the arc 693 00:41:29.239 --> 00:41:31.559 of the Covenant is a box that has wings on it, 694 00:41:31.639 --> 00:41:34.400 that flies around that it has Moses' private family jewels 695 00:41:34.440 --> 00:41:37.159 in it. I mean, I would expect you would get 696 00:41:37.199 --> 00:41:38.719 at least what the arc of the company. That's not 697 00:41:38.760 --> 00:41:41.679 what the oir coven is like it. It's not an 698 00:41:41.679 --> 00:41:46.480 Amazon drone with Moses family jewels in it, right, It's 699 00:41:46.639 --> 00:41:50.079 it's a box that's in the temple, that's a big 700 00:41:50.199 --> 00:41:53.639 gold thing with angel golden angels on it. It's not 701 00:41:53.719 --> 00:41:56.400 a thing that flies. So I mean, you see what 702 00:41:56.440 --> 00:41:59.440 I'm saying. If there was actually a deeper esoterics, then 703 00:41:59.519 --> 00:42:02.679 you would you at least be getting the literal stuff. 704 00:42:02.480 --> 00:42:06.199 Right, That's correct. I saw after our discussion last time 705 00:42:06.239 --> 00:42:10.360 when we when we were talking about how according to Islam, 706 00:42:10.480 --> 00:42:12.639 Jesus will come back and will kill the pig. That 707 00:42:12.760 --> 00:42:14.960 was apparently a highlight, and somebody responded to it and 708 00:42:15.039 --> 00:42:18.119 said that there is actually a more sinister meaning behind it, 709 00:42:18.760 --> 00:42:22.880 and I thought, you know, I see what you mean, 710 00:42:23.079 --> 00:42:24.960 and I see what you're doing, and I see how 711 00:42:25.000 --> 00:42:28.760 you say that there is a sinister Islamic implication about 712 00:42:29.280 --> 00:42:32.760 what pigs represent and what breaking the cross represents. However, 713 00:42:33.079 --> 00:42:36.599 you are giving Islam too much credit here. It's it's 714 00:42:37.079 --> 00:42:40.159 really not that deep. It is that is very very 715 00:42:40.519 --> 00:42:44.119 very primitive, extremely primitive, and it's and it's in the 716 00:42:44.159 --> 00:42:45.159 way it handles things. 717 00:42:45.280 --> 00:42:48.000 Well, if it wasn't, then I mean to cut you off. 718 00:42:48.039 --> 00:42:51.639 But let's say doctor Khalil's correct that no, really Islam 719 00:42:51.800 --> 00:42:53.360 is this deeper esoteric stuff. 720 00:42:53.960 --> 00:42:54.840 Well, then why is it. 721 00:42:54.960 --> 00:43:00.159 So clouded and clogged up with the goofy hadiths that aren't. 722 00:43:01.719 --> 00:43:04.199 Well, there are some very deep dees to be honest. 723 00:43:04.239 --> 00:43:06.719 For example, one uh, which I would like to have 724 00:43:06.840 --> 00:43:10.519 your input on, would be uh one thing that Muhammad said, 725 00:43:10.599 --> 00:43:15.239 which was the eyes are the leather strap of the anus. 726 00:43:17.239 --> 00:43:20.519 I knew you were going to bring something. Third. I 727 00:43:20.679 --> 00:43:23.159 was like, for like one second, I was like, oh, 728 00:43:23.480 --> 00:43:25.920 what if he's gonna He's gonna bring out Mohammed's like 729 00:43:27.039 --> 00:43:30.480 physical treatise on like reality and being And it's like 730 00:43:31.320 --> 00:43:33.440 the eyes of the leather strap of the anus. That's 731 00:43:33.440 --> 00:43:36.199 a new one to me. I didn't know that sound 732 00:43:36.239 --> 00:43:36.719 pretty deep. 733 00:43:40.519 --> 00:43:43.119 This isn't actual, goes I guess you could get. 734 00:43:43.239 --> 00:43:45.679 You could give like a esoteric I don't know what 735 00:43:45.760 --> 00:43:48.480 it would be. But by the way, on that topic, 736 00:43:49.079 --> 00:43:51.000 you know what, this actually sounds really similar to have 737 00:43:51.079 --> 00:43:55.559 you ever heard of Jim Jones's Like he would he 738 00:43:55.599 --> 00:43:58.960 would go into these long, weird discourses and he has 739 00:43:59.039 --> 00:44:03.320 this idea that like farted out the universe. I mean 740 00:44:03.559 --> 00:44:06.559 it's I know, it's goofy, but like you find like 741 00:44:06.679 --> 00:44:09.599 at times these cult leaders will kind of like they'll 742 00:44:09.679 --> 00:44:14.000 kind of spill the beans on. It's just like crazy bs. 743 00:44:13.800 --> 00:44:17.880 You know what I mean, no pun intended beans. But yeah, 744 00:44:18.039 --> 00:44:20.119 Jim Jones is my it's my favorite cult leader. So 745 00:44:20.159 --> 00:44:21.679 I know, quite's quite a bit about him. 746 00:44:24.920 --> 00:44:26.800 Collection like Pokemon you got like cards? 747 00:44:26.880 --> 00:44:34.880 Yeah, yeah, yeah, I finally got this one, uh interesting stuff. Yeah. 748 00:44:34.920 --> 00:44:37.159 But just to explain to you what the deep meaning 749 00:44:37.239 --> 00:44:39.320 of the eyes of the letters, strap of the anus means. 750 00:44:39.360 --> 00:44:43.199 What Muhammed meant when he said that was so you're 751 00:44:43.239 --> 00:44:45.760 supposed to do the ablution whenever you do a prayer, right, 752 00:44:46.599 --> 00:44:49.679 But if you go to sleep and you fall asleep, 753 00:44:49.760 --> 00:44:52.760 you don't have full full control over your your anus anymore, 754 00:44:52.760 --> 00:44:56.000 and you might fart, which might invalidate the ablution. So 755 00:44:56.280 --> 00:44:58.760 his his idea was the eyes are what keep the 756 00:44:58.880 --> 00:45:01.440 anus shut because they are the leather strap that keep 757 00:45:01.480 --> 00:45:05.239 it shut, like like on a bottle back. Then what 758 00:45:05.400 --> 00:45:07.719 what if you close the eyes, then the leather strap 759 00:45:07.840 --> 00:45:11.159 is loose and farts might get out. So you would 760 00:45:11.199 --> 00:45:14.079 have to given that that is a possibility when you 761 00:45:14.119 --> 00:45:15.519 wake up, you have to do another. 762 00:45:15.719 --> 00:45:18.239 I'm not really into Freudian stuff, but it would be 763 00:45:18.320 --> 00:45:21.760 really amusing to see a Freudian analysis of these needs 764 00:45:21.840 --> 00:45:27.039 and like what what Mohamma was up to? Well, that's 765 00:45:27.159 --> 00:45:28.960 that's that's a wild one. I mean, are the hot 766 00:45:29.000 --> 00:45:33.519 these basically just a giant encyclopedia of like crazy stuff 767 00:45:33.559 --> 00:45:35.840 that people are discovering, like on a daily basis, Like 768 00:45:36.119 --> 00:45:37.480 is this just endless? The stuff? 769 00:45:38.320 --> 00:45:41.360 It's just much of it is just so random. It's 770 00:45:41.840 --> 00:45:45.840 it is. So I have a collection here, Yeah, I've. 771 00:45:45.719 --> 00:45:48.760 Got I've got them on order, sahib Ohari. 772 00:45:48.559 --> 00:45:51.639 And so I actually have one that I recommend to you, 773 00:45:51.719 --> 00:45:56.719 which is Sahibukari with all repetitions removed. Oh okay, yeah, 774 00:45:56.840 --> 00:46:00.440 so it's it's it's relatively short compared to the whole thing. 775 00:46:00.920 --> 00:46:04.119 But if if you go through it, or I have 776 00:46:04.199 --> 00:46:09.239 another one which is a mass transmitted verified hadiths listed 777 00:46:09.320 --> 00:46:11.239 in a in one book, and much of it is 778 00:46:11.360 --> 00:46:14.880 just it's just completely useless information that that is just 779 00:46:14.920 --> 00:46:18.320 put in there where somebody where Mohammad says something totally irrelevant, 780 00:46:18.360 --> 00:46:20.639 and then people just report on it and and and 781 00:46:20.760 --> 00:46:22.039 deliver it, and that's it. 782 00:46:22.199 --> 00:46:24.920 I'm going to walk down to the horse store today. Okay, 783 00:46:27.199 --> 00:46:29.440 they're they're just random stuff. 784 00:46:29.960 --> 00:46:32.480 Oh there. There's also some interesting, weird detail that, uh, 785 00:46:32.719 --> 00:46:35.039 that David likes to bring up. For example, like that 786 00:46:35.800 --> 00:46:39.360 I just says that sometimes there was a lot of 787 00:46:39.440 --> 00:46:43.159 semen on Mohammed's uh on Mohammed's clothes and she would 788 00:46:43.199 --> 00:46:45.119 have to really scrub it off very very hard, and 789 00:46:45.119 --> 00:46:46.800 he would still have spots on it when he would 790 00:46:46.800 --> 00:46:52.639 go to the mask to pray. So things like that, 791 00:46:52.840 --> 00:46:57.159 you know, like interesting important stuff, theologically important and crucial stuff. 792 00:46:58.239 --> 00:46:58.360 Uh. 793 00:47:02.000 --> 00:47:04.679 Moving on, what is the worst thing you have heard 794 00:47:04.880 --> 00:47:10.719 from Muslims in terms of arguments? I know this is 795 00:47:10.760 --> 00:47:13.960 a very tough one, even worse than I think. 796 00:47:14.000 --> 00:47:16.239 One of the things that stands out as just kind 797 00:47:16.280 --> 00:47:21.480 of silly was when Azar Rashid, when we were debating 798 00:47:22.280 --> 00:47:25.559 about the incarnation, and he said that there's no way 799 00:47:25.679 --> 00:47:30.000 that you know, God could be incarnate and come into 800 00:47:30.079 --> 00:47:32.039 the womb of a woman, because he would have the 801 00:47:32.119 --> 00:47:37.119 pastor of vagina. Vaginas are unclean. And you know, I 802 00:47:37.239 --> 00:47:38.639 might have mentioned this last time. I don't know, but 803 00:47:38.679 --> 00:47:41.159 it's like, well, but didn't All I create vaginas? I mean, 804 00:47:43.760 --> 00:47:45.199 but then but then again it's like, well, you have, 805 00:47:45.239 --> 00:47:47.519 but All I can create good and evil, you know, 806 00:47:47.679 --> 00:47:51.239 dark and light. He creates the wicked as well as 807 00:47:51.320 --> 00:47:54.760 the good. He wills evil directly as as well as 808 00:47:54.800 --> 00:47:58.960 the goods. So I mean, if All is the greatest 809 00:47:59.000 --> 00:48:01.920 of deceivers, the like, why is it wrong anyway? Right? 810 00:48:02.079 --> 00:48:04.079 So I thought that was always that always stands out 811 00:48:04.079 --> 00:48:05.239 as a funny objection. 812 00:48:05.639 --> 00:48:05.760 Uh. 813 00:48:06.960 --> 00:48:09.199 The worst stuff I think is like when they really 814 00:48:09.239 --> 00:48:12.760 try to go into what they think is a knock 815 00:48:12.800 --> 00:48:15.119 against Christianity. Oh so when you think when Christ became 816 00:48:15.159 --> 00:48:17.960 in carnate, he had he had body parts, and yet 817 00:48:17.960 --> 00:48:21.440 don't the Hadiths say that Allah has gonads and Allah 818 00:48:21.599 --> 00:48:24.119 is you know, ninety feet tall. And so it's like 819 00:48:24.280 --> 00:48:26.639 a lot of what they think is a gotcha ends 820 00:48:26.719 --> 00:48:29.239 up being you know, absurd in terms of their own 821 00:48:29.400 --> 00:48:35.719 hadiths worst argument. I think the Islami dilemma is pretty 822 00:48:35.760 --> 00:48:38.880 stupid if you think about it, like you want this 823 00:48:39.039 --> 00:48:43.280 book to be confirmed by the prior revelation and then literally, 824 00:48:43.480 --> 00:48:46.679 like Ajas said the debate when Sam pinned him, he said, 825 00:48:46.719 --> 00:48:50.000 what it did, just say, yes, it's all corrupt, but 826 00:48:50.039 --> 00:48:52.519 a lot of places are in it are true when 827 00:48:52.519 --> 00:48:56.719 it confirms the Koran. But thank you for literally saying 828 00:48:56.880 --> 00:48:59.360 what we were looking for you to admit. So he 829 00:48:59.400 --> 00:49:02.519 didn't even that. He admitted, like the very thing that 830 00:49:02.639 --> 00:49:06.400 we were saying was pretty devastating. That was that one 831 00:49:06.480 --> 00:49:08.800 stands out and it's. 832 00:49:08.599 --> 00:49:12.719 A very very clear display of a fallacy, and he 833 00:49:12.960 --> 00:49:19.199 just says it right away. Yeah, it's very very interesting. 834 00:49:19.760 --> 00:49:21.320 But this is the perspective. This is what you are 835 00:49:21.360 --> 00:49:26.599 left with. Initially, the Muslims thought that that the Torah 836 00:49:26.760 --> 00:49:29.599 and in Jel contained truth, and they are they're the 837 00:49:29.719 --> 00:49:32.320 truth actually, and they were revealed by Allah and they 838 00:49:32.360 --> 00:49:34.920 are truth as they are, and Jews and Christians are 839 00:49:34.960 --> 00:49:38.480 supposed to still follow those books, and this narrative never 840 00:49:38.559 --> 00:49:41.400 really changed. In the Qur'an. There is no single courn 841 00:49:41.519 --> 00:49:45.280 verse which which actually explicitly says that those books are 842 00:49:45.400 --> 00:49:49.639 no longer authentic, or that they have been literally physically corrupted. 843 00:49:50.679 --> 00:49:54.199 It still insists that they should have just followed those books, 844 00:49:54.280 --> 00:49:58.159 or should just follow those books. But but you can't 845 00:49:58.199 --> 00:50:00.119 really make sense of it because if you actually the 846 00:50:00.239 --> 00:50:02.440 open host books and read them, then you have to 847 00:50:02.480 --> 00:50:06.480 conclude that Islam is false. You can't have both religions 848 00:50:06.519 --> 00:50:09.039 to be true at the same time, or three true 849 00:50:09.079 --> 00:50:09.679 at the same time. 850 00:50:10.960 --> 00:50:14.440 Well, this suggests too that Muhammad was probably relying on 851 00:50:14.480 --> 00:50:17.199 a lot of people who couldn't read. Yeah, things are 852 00:50:17.280 --> 00:50:19.599 relying on an audience that even though he's saying you 853 00:50:19.639 --> 00:50:22.239 can check with what came before, I'm saying everything consistent 854 00:50:22.320 --> 00:50:25.039 with it. Well, if I actually go and read it, 855 00:50:25.079 --> 00:50:27.280 obviously that's not true. So I think the assumption was 856 00:50:27.320 --> 00:50:29.760 that maybe most you know, most of the audits is 857 00:50:29.800 --> 00:50:31.199 not actually going to do that, or they don't know 858 00:50:31.280 --> 00:50:35.719 what the texts actually say. And then also I think 859 00:50:35.760 --> 00:50:37.880 this one gets overlooked because I noticed more and more 860 00:50:37.960 --> 00:50:41.400 Muslims saying this. But it's a really stupid argument. When 861 00:50:41.440 --> 00:50:47.159 Daniel said, look, Islam is simple, and wouldn't God make 862 00:50:47.280 --> 00:50:50.079 the true religion more simple? Therefore it's got to be 863 00:50:50.199 --> 00:50:52.519 Islam right. I mean, to me, that's just such a 864 00:50:52.559 --> 00:50:56.159 stupid argument number one, because first of all, it's a 865 00:50:56.199 --> 00:50:59.239 fallacy to think that because something appears to be simple 866 00:50:59.320 --> 00:51:01.599 or that it's similar to grasp It's a version of 867 00:51:01.639 --> 00:51:04.440 Auckham's razor fallacy that has nothing to do with whether 868 00:51:04.440 --> 00:51:07.079 it's true or false. I mean, errors can be very simple. 869 00:51:07.159 --> 00:51:09.039 Does that make the errors true because they're simple? And 870 00:51:09.119 --> 00:51:12.519 it's silly, right, But also the Koran itself says in 871 00:51:12.599 --> 00:51:16.719 multiple places We've made everything clear. Everything is extremely clear, 872 00:51:17.679 --> 00:51:19.639 very clear, Like it says this over and over and over. 873 00:51:19.920 --> 00:51:21.760 And then there's another verse where it's like, well, many 874 00:51:21.800 --> 00:51:24.039 of these verses, only Allah knows what they mean, well, 875 00:51:24.079 --> 00:51:27.199 not exactly clear, right, So wait a minute, is the 876 00:51:27.320 --> 00:51:30.079 Koran extremely clear or is it complex? And only Allah 877 00:51:30.119 --> 00:51:32.239 knows many of these passes and what they mean, So 878 00:51:33.119 --> 00:51:35.440 by that very definition, it's not true. And then also 879 00:51:36.639 --> 00:51:38.599 Daniel knows good and well that. And by the way 880 00:51:38.599 --> 00:51:41.639 it's happened ever since that debate on Twitter and after 881 00:51:41.639 --> 00:51:44.440 the Muslim inter debate, they're all arguing over the attributes again, 882 00:51:45.079 --> 00:51:47.840 which is what I brought up in both debates that 883 00:51:48.079 --> 00:51:50.880 they've debated and killed each other over both of them 884 00:51:51.119 --> 00:51:55.960 both debates. The Muslims wide and acted like what is akida? 885 00:51:56.000 --> 00:51:58.840 I never heard of this? This is never what what 886 00:51:58.920 --> 00:52:03.679 are you talking about? Acting like there weren't famous wars 887 00:52:03.719 --> 00:52:07.480 and debate over the eternal Quran, over the attributes in 888 00:52:07.519 --> 00:52:11.440 the essence, and they're now debating it on Twitter, exemplifying 889 00:52:11.480 --> 00:52:13.519 the thing I said that they debate this when in 890 00:52:13.599 --> 00:52:15.719 the debates they said, we don't debate this stuff. We 891 00:52:15.800 --> 00:52:18.639 all agree all as one, so they play word games. 892 00:52:18.679 --> 00:52:22.079 They know good and well that I wasn't saying. Yes, 893 00:52:22.239 --> 00:52:24.760 of course you all say Allah is one, but what 894 00:52:24.960 --> 00:52:27.119 that means you all fight over That's the point. 895 00:52:29.400 --> 00:52:32.480 There was a very very dirty moment by Muslim lantern 896 00:52:33.639 --> 00:52:36.519 who probably stole his name from me. Ex Muslim lantern 897 00:52:40.280 --> 00:52:42.239 who said during the debate, when you talked to him 898 00:52:42.239 --> 00:52:44.639 about about akida is akda, I don't know what that? 899 00:52:44.840 --> 00:52:46.760 What's t akita? What's aekida? What's tekida? 900 00:52:47.320 --> 00:52:47.440 Uh? 901 00:52:47.920 --> 00:52:50.199 You know, if you want to joke about it for 902 00:52:50.280 --> 00:52:52.880 a second, okay, go ahead and do that. But he's 903 00:52:53.000 --> 00:52:55.960 actually using that as a debate tactic, pretending that he 904 00:52:56.039 --> 00:52:58.360 doesn't know what akda is because he's like oh, you 905 00:52:58.440 --> 00:53:03.079 mean Alquida, not Akida. Uh we you know exactly what 906 00:53:03.239 --> 00:53:07.079 is being said. You're not you're not being funny, you're 907 00:53:07.119 --> 00:53:09.679 not being you're not ignorant. You know exactly what's being said. 908 00:53:09.880 --> 00:53:12.239 But he actually dodges the issue by saying, oh, I 909 00:53:12.280 --> 00:53:16.079 don't know what that is, which is a very interesting tactic. 910 00:53:16.119 --> 00:53:21.320 It's it's just within Islamic apologetics, it is it is 911 00:53:21.760 --> 00:53:25.480 considered acceptable, widely acceptable to simply, you know, deceive, to lie, 912 00:53:25.679 --> 00:53:30.239 to trick the opponent, to to be dishonest. And this 913 00:53:30.320 --> 00:53:32.840 shouldn't be the case. This shouldn't be the case for 914 00:53:33.119 --> 00:53:38.360 a a religion that supposedly represents these this this ultimate fantastic, 915 00:53:38.480 --> 00:53:42.440 great morality, as opposed to all the corruption in the 916 00:53:42.519 --> 00:53:44.719 world and all the you know, all the people who 917 00:53:44.760 --> 00:53:48.320 went astray. This shouldn't be it. If you lie, if 918 00:53:48.360 --> 00:53:51.320 you act dishonestly during debate debates, this just says a 919 00:53:51.360 --> 00:53:54.800 lot about about your religion and is a weak position. 920 00:53:55.480 --> 00:53:58.119 Yeah, yeah, exactly a strong position. I don't need a 921 00:53:58.159 --> 00:54:01.800 bunch of tricks and and kind and schemes and tactics. 922 00:54:02.280 --> 00:54:05.199 I can simply present the positions. I can present the truth. 923 00:54:05.639 --> 00:54:08.280 I'm not going to have to rely on tactics that 924 00:54:08.960 --> 00:54:11.000 again obviously signify a weak position. 925 00:54:11.679 --> 00:54:15.599 Yeah. Yeah, And the whole thing about the trinity versus 926 00:54:15.719 --> 00:54:20.679 towhead is a very very interesting perspective. I get it. 927 00:54:20.840 --> 00:54:23.719 They like to appeal to that because they can catch 928 00:54:23.840 --> 00:54:27.119 They can get the average Muslim follower to say, oh, yeah, 929 00:54:27.239 --> 00:54:31.000 look makes so much sense, which is a very weird 930 00:54:31.079 --> 00:54:35.079 way to handle things. It mostly appeals to Muslims who 931 00:54:35.159 --> 00:54:38.719 already believe in the toe heat will say, yeah, look, 932 00:54:38.800 --> 00:54:42.239 Trinity doesn't make sense, lok, Trinity is too complicated. Well, 933 00:54:42.599 --> 00:54:46.679 first off, I never agreed and personally don't agree that 934 00:54:46.880 --> 00:54:50.280 the simple belief in the Trinity within the trayne God 935 00:54:50.480 --> 00:54:54.159 is a complicated issue. It may be complicated if you 936 00:54:54.280 --> 00:54:57.400 go further into the first centuries of Christianity, for example, 937 00:54:57.440 --> 00:55:01.440 and discuss the nature of God, scussed the christology in 938 00:55:01.559 --> 00:55:04.239 detail and all that, But these are things that Christianity 939 00:55:04.360 --> 00:55:08.920 handled uh uh in the very beginnings, long time ago. Similarly, 940 00:55:09.079 --> 00:55:11.840 Islam had disagreements, as you just mentioned, about the nature 941 00:55:11.880 --> 00:55:15.920 of Allah further about the Quran's createdness, whether the Qoran 942 00:55:16.039 --> 00:55:18.360 is created or not, or is an eternal speech of 943 00:55:18.400 --> 00:55:21.519 Allah that always pre always pre existed or not. Then 944 00:55:21.519 --> 00:55:25.440 they had an issue on predetermination and free will, which 945 00:55:25.519 --> 00:55:29.119 they killed over. There was one group known as the Mootazila, 946 00:55:29.199 --> 00:55:33.159 who had who's stuck on to the point that that 947 00:55:33.320 --> 00:55:37.199 predestination doesn't make sense uh and that that and that 948 00:55:37.320 --> 00:55:40.239 the Quran is created, And they were declared heretics and 949 00:55:40.400 --> 00:55:43.880 fought and also killed and punished over these things. If 950 00:55:43.920 --> 00:55:46.719 you want to come to the complications of the details 951 00:55:46.800 --> 00:55:50.199 of your theological beliefs, you can also talk about Islam 952 00:55:50.320 --> 00:55:54.679 in that in that regard, there is nothing really complicated 953 00:55:54.719 --> 00:55:59.199 about about Jesus, about the divinity of Jesus, about the 954 00:55:59.559 --> 00:56:02.679 Holy Spirit, about God, the Father, and so on. Plus 955 00:56:03.239 --> 00:56:07.480 they also engage in this tactic where they specifically talk 956 00:56:07.559 --> 00:56:12.360 about the doctrine of the Trinity and the Council of Nicia, 957 00:56:12.440 --> 00:56:16.760 for example, and act like, act like. Prior to this, 958 00:56:17.679 --> 00:56:20.719 Christians didn't actually hold on to the idea that there 959 00:56:20.800 --> 00:56:22.800 is the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, when 960 00:56:23.280 --> 00:56:26.000 we know very well that this is early Christianity. The 961 00:56:26.079 --> 00:56:29.000 first sources on Christianity talk about the Father, the Son, 962 00:56:29.079 --> 00:56:32.480 and the Holy Spirit. If you want to specifically talk 963 00:56:32.519 --> 00:56:35.079 about the formalization of the of the Trinity, that is 964 00:56:35.079 --> 00:56:38.440 a different matter, but that does that in no way, 965 00:56:38.639 --> 00:56:43.440 in no way invalidates the belief in Father, Son and 966 00:56:43.519 --> 00:56:45.039 Holy Spirit which was always there. Right. 967 00:56:45.800 --> 00:56:48.480 Yeah, we did a stream with inspiring philosophy, which you 968 00:56:48.519 --> 00:56:51.119 can find on his channel still, where we spent out 969 00:56:51.119 --> 00:56:54.639 two and a half hours going through just first and 970 00:56:54.800 --> 00:57:01.239 second and third century Patristic text references to the Trinity. 971 00:57:01.840 --> 00:57:03.800 And so, first of all, the word is used prior 972 00:57:03.880 --> 00:57:07.119 to Nicea. You can find it in Theophilis, you can 973 00:57:07.199 --> 00:57:12.440 find it in Tertullian. And even though Tratullian did not 974 00:57:12.679 --> 00:57:16.280 end his life orthodox or in the Church, he does 975 00:57:16.360 --> 00:57:19.280 have a lot of historical texts that attest to the 976 00:57:19.320 --> 00:57:22.800 beliefs of that time. And so you know, there's there's 977 00:57:23.119 --> 00:57:26.880 a plethora of information and texts from Irenaeus to Ignatius 978 00:57:26.960 --> 00:57:35.559 to Clement, to Theophilis of Antioch, to Cyprian, to Alphinatius Alexander, 979 00:57:36.079 --> 00:57:40.719 all who have famous written texts prior to Nicia that 980 00:57:41.000 --> 00:57:43.960 basically demonstrate that when Nicia comes to gather and meets, 981 00:57:44.679 --> 00:57:48.159 they're not saying anything new. And this is actually another 982 00:57:48.400 --> 00:57:51.000 example of this is that and I'm not singling out 983 00:57:51.039 --> 00:57:54.000 inspiring philosophy here, But a lot of Protestants actually end 984 00:57:54.079 --> 00:57:57.320 up becoming Orthodox or Catholic over this point because they 985 00:57:57.400 --> 00:58:00.800 realized that, hey, actually I can actually go read all 986 00:58:00.880 --> 00:58:04.199 these people from these first three centuries. Most Muslims that 987 00:58:04.239 --> 00:58:07.679 I've encountered are not even aware that there are these people, 988 00:58:08.280 --> 00:58:12.239 unless they want to go to one text in Tertullian 989 00:58:12.440 --> 00:58:17.159 or one section of justin Martyr where suddenly, now right, 990 00:58:17.280 --> 00:58:20.119 they teach anti trinitarianism. Well, I don't think they teach 991 00:58:20.159 --> 00:58:22.880 anti trinitarianism if you look at the context, and Sam 992 00:58:22.960 --> 00:58:25.519 has schmun As a video where he goes into what 993 00:58:25.800 --> 00:58:29.599 Tertullian's actually saying. If you read that whole passage, ultimately 994 00:58:29.639 --> 00:58:32.719 it doesn't even matter because you know, Tertullian left the church, 995 00:58:32.800 --> 00:58:35.000 so I don't have a problem admitting that Totillian made errors. 996 00:58:35.599 --> 00:58:37.800 They'll also do this weird trick too, where they sort 997 00:58:37.800 --> 00:58:44.039 of expect, they expect to the Christians to hold to 998 00:58:44.119 --> 00:58:47.880 some standard that they have, And in our perspective, we 999 00:58:48.000 --> 00:58:50.559 don't think that every church father has to say everything 1000 00:58:50.599 --> 00:58:53.880 perfectly or get everything correct. They can make a mistake. 1001 00:58:54.079 --> 00:58:57.000 It's it's the judgment of the church. From the Christian perspective, 1002 00:58:57.039 --> 00:59:00.360 as to whether somebody like Origin is a hair or 1003 00:59:00.400 --> 00:59:03.079 Trapillion is a heretic, or whether someone like Justin Martyr, 1004 00:59:03.280 --> 00:59:05.440 even if he didn't say something perfectly, is still within 1005 00:59:05.480 --> 00:59:07.960 the bosom of the church. So they have these kind 1006 00:59:07.960 --> 00:59:10.880 of weird, uh, just all over the place standards that 1007 00:59:10.920 --> 00:59:14.159 they'll expect your position to conform to what they expect. 1008 00:59:14.559 --> 00:59:16.559 For example, yesterday I was a beating with a Muslim 1009 00:59:17.079 --> 00:59:19.920 and he said, uh, this is a new one, and 1010 00:59:20.000 --> 00:59:22.760 this is a funny version of it. She says, Torah 1011 00:59:22.960 --> 00:59:27.119 has to be like the Quran, a direct revelation to 1012 00:59:27.360 --> 00:59:30.079 Moses that he's that Moses spits out from a lot. 1013 00:59:30.679 --> 00:59:34.840 He says, that's what Torah is, and it's like at 1014 00:59:34.880 --> 00:59:38.360 the end of it, it talks about Moses dying, and 1015 00:59:38.440 --> 00:59:41.639 so therefore Torah is not what you have. I'm like, 1016 00:59:41.920 --> 00:59:44.679 that's your idea as to what Torah is. That's not 1017 00:59:44.840 --> 00:59:47.880 what we believe Torre is. So I'm not bound by 1018 00:59:47.920 --> 00:59:52.559 your standards, right. So, I think there's a real deficiency 1019 00:59:52.800 --> 00:59:58.800 when it comes to They seem to be typically incapable 1020 00:59:59.039 --> 01:00:02.039 of understanding what our position is, and I think they 1021 01:00:02.079 --> 01:00:05.400 don't want to. I think there's a desire to not 1022 01:00:05.519 --> 01:00:08.360 even care what the other position is, which is funny 1023 01:00:08.440 --> 01:00:10.360 because if you want to be a really good debater, 1024 01:00:10.800 --> 01:00:13.679 you want to know the other person's actual position. 1025 01:00:15.360 --> 01:00:22.320 That's true. The problem is that Islam is incredibly ignorant. 1026 01:00:22.519 --> 01:00:26.920 It lacks the knowledge of the Biblical tradition, Biblical beliefs 1027 01:00:26.920 --> 01:00:30.159 and scriptures. The Quran is a tiny book in comparison 1028 01:00:30.239 --> 01:00:35.320 to the Bible that you have. It is a tiny 1029 01:00:35.360 --> 01:00:38.880 book compared to the Christian Bible, a tiny book compared 1030 01:00:38.920 --> 01:00:41.880 to the Tanakh. It is a tiny book compared to 1031 01:00:42.519 --> 01:00:47.119 Christian Jewish tradition. It does not compare. And coming from 1032 01:00:47.159 --> 01:00:51.760 that position, from that perspective, from what Mohammad and his 1033 01:00:51.920 --> 01:00:55.440 followers developed in the seventh century, and then judging the 1034 01:00:55.599 --> 01:01:00.280 Bible and expecting it to be on your standard, iecting 1035 01:01:00.320 --> 01:01:04.519 it to be by your standards, it's just is ridiculous. 1036 01:01:04.519 --> 01:01:07.079 It is completely ridiculous. And they make a lot of 1037 01:01:07.159 --> 01:01:12.400 mistakes there, including yeah, they don't understand what the Bible 1038 01:01:12.559 --> 01:01:14.840 actually is. They don't understand what the Torah actually is. 1039 01:01:15.519 --> 01:01:15.639 Uh. 1040 01:01:15.760 --> 01:01:18.400 They don't understand what the Gospel. 1041 01:01:19.880 --> 01:01:20.599 Floated down right? 1042 01:01:20.719 --> 01:01:23.480 Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly, they don't know. They when you 1043 01:01:23.599 --> 01:01:27.079 explain to them what the gospels actually are. They think 1044 01:01:27.639 --> 01:01:30.159 it can't be true whether so people wrote it. Well, no, 1045 01:01:30.280 --> 01:01:32.519 it must be revelation, it must be a lot must be, 1046 01:01:32.679 --> 01:01:35.119 it must be speaking it. And so this is not true, 1047 01:01:35.199 --> 01:01:38.239 this is not gospel. Uh yeah, I was just so. 1048 01:01:38.400 --> 01:01:42.599 Doctor Khalil just did a long talk contrasting the athari 1049 01:01:42.760 --> 01:01:46.239 and the well even to me, a Salafia thory view 1050 01:01:46.400 --> 01:01:50.320 versus the review of not just attributes, but also in 1051 01:01:50.440 --> 01:01:54.639 what way the Qur'an was spoken by Allah? And then 1052 01:01:56.039 --> 01:02:00.880 Allah made Gabriel understand the uncreated speed each so that 1053 01:02:00.960 --> 01:02:03.440 he could then tell mom and to write down a 1054 01:02:03.599 --> 01:02:06.719 created version of the kron But what's missed here is 1055 01:02:06.800 --> 01:02:10.679 that it's never really answering the objection that we have. 1056 01:02:10.880 --> 01:02:12.800 And I've been bringing up back all the way back 1057 01:02:12.840 --> 01:02:15.599 to the Shabiri lead debate. I'm not saying I'm the 1058 01:02:15.599 --> 01:02:17.519 first person to say this. I'm sure many other Christians 1059 01:02:17.519 --> 01:02:19.880 have brought this up. But it's like, okay, but if 1060 01:02:20.000 --> 01:02:24.159 what's if what's in here is created and there's no 1061 01:02:24.440 --> 01:02:28.199 likeness to the uncreated, it's still begging the question, how 1062 01:02:28.280 --> 01:02:30.920 we ever know we're being told anything accurately about a law? 1063 01:02:31.039 --> 01:02:33.599 Because you can't have any images of a law. Alos 1064 01:02:33.760 --> 01:02:37.400 nothing like creatures like forty two and one ten. I 1065 01:02:37.480 --> 01:02:40.519 think there's nothing like a law okay, so there's nothing 1066 01:02:40.639 --> 01:02:43.599 like Allah. Then you understand these are created images on 1067 01:02:43.679 --> 01:02:45.760 a piece of paper. How are they telling us anything 1068 01:02:45.760 --> 01:02:49.119 about uncreated speech? And so they're always been this back 1069 01:02:49.159 --> 01:02:51.599 and forth. We had a guy on last night, the 1070 01:02:51.639 --> 01:02:53.599 Muslim guy, arguing this last night, and he says, well, 1071 01:02:54.199 --> 01:02:58.039 the representations of all those attributes, okay, was a representation 1072 01:02:58.199 --> 01:03:00.000 not an image? Is Adam not made of the end 1073 01:03:00.000 --> 01:03:03.440 image of Allah though there's no images? Well, their conceptions 1074 01:03:03.519 --> 01:03:07.239 and conceptions are in the mind, okay, is your mind 1075 01:03:07.280 --> 01:03:09.880 not created? So they just keep moving the problem back 1076 01:03:09.960 --> 01:03:12.559 in stuff? Right? So how are we avoiding idolatry when 1077 01:03:12.599 --> 01:03:16.000 we say, you know, this word here picks out all 1078 01:03:16.079 --> 01:03:20.000 his attribute here, So you need some kind of analogy. 1079 01:03:20.159 --> 01:03:22.920 If there's no analogies, then these creative things aren't telling 1080 01:03:23.039 --> 01:03:25.039 us anything about a lot. And I've never heard them 1081 01:03:25.119 --> 01:03:27.880 really give any clear answer. They're all over the place, 1082 01:03:27.960 --> 01:03:29.639 depending upon which Akia you're talking to. 1083 01:03:30.400 --> 01:03:34.920 This problem is why? Is why? The humbly point of view, 1084 01:03:35.079 --> 01:03:38.480 which later developed the whole idea of the three point 1085 01:03:38.480 --> 01:03:43.920 of view, the traditionalist or ultra traditionalist revivalist point of view, 1086 01:03:44.199 --> 01:03:47.000 which is why they developed this whole idea of Okay, 1087 01:03:47.760 --> 01:03:51.079 what we know about a law comes from several sources 1088 01:03:51.119 --> 01:03:55.679 that he has at least one leg to right arms, 1089 01:03:57.159 --> 01:04:00.320 but we are not supposed to think about this any further. 1090 01:04:01.119 --> 01:04:04.239 Do not ask how? So do not ask how? Then 1091 01:04:04.320 --> 01:04:06.760 became this this phrase that is actually known as a 1092 01:04:06.880 --> 01:04:11.760 doctrine black Cave, which was specifically established in order to 1093 01:04:11.880 --> 01:04:15.960 prevent any further discussion about the nature of our law 1094 01:04:16.400 --> 01:04:19.480 and how we are supposed to understand it and to 1095 01:04:19.599 --> 01:04:22.960 simply accept the description as it is, but not to 1096 01:04:23.119 --> 01:04:24.960 imagine it and not to discuss it. But the thing is, 1097 01:04:25.000 --> 01:04:26.960 once to describe those things and I start imagining it, 1098 01:04:27.000 --> 01:04:31.239 it's too late already I already have some It's articulous. 1099 01:04:31.480 --> 01:04:33.719 Yeah, that's what That's what I kept bringing up to Jake. 1100 01:04:33.840 --> 01:04:37.039 It's like, what is an uncreated foot that's nothing like 1101 01:04:37.119 --> 01:04:40.280 the human foot? But this and by the way, it 1102 01:04:40.360 --> 01:04:42.639 gets really silly when you get into the even to 1103 01:04:42.760 --> 01:04:46.800 me is theology of perfections, right, because he starts arguing that, well, 1104 01:04:46.840 --> 01:04:50.039 all I have to laugh, because laughing is more perfect 1105 01:04:50.079 --> 01:04:53.679 than not laughing. Yeah, I'm serious, And so then it 1106 01:04:53.760 --> 01:04:56.679 becomes well, wouldn't wouldn't it then be more perfect to 1107 01:04:56.840 --> 01:05:00.599 eternally laugh than to just laugh once? So so All 1108 01:05:00.800 --> 01:05:05.039 is like the joker, like he's constantly laughing, right, I 1109 01:05:05.079 --> 01:05:06.840 mean you see how silly this gets. And then it's like, 1110 01:05:07.519 --> 01:05:10.440 how many toes is a perfect foot? Like, wouldn't seven 1111 01:05:10.559 --> 01:05:12.800 because that's a perfect number. Wouldn't that be more perfect 1112 01:05:12.840 --> 01:05:15.960 to have seven toes and have five toes? Six toes? 1113 01:05:16.000 --> 01:05:19.039 Like what's your perfect number of toes on the uncreative foot? Yeah? 1114 01:05:19.039 --> 01:05:22.320 Silly this is, but that's literally, It's not that's literally 1115 01:05:22.400 --> 01:05:25.400 how even to me is arguing he's saying he actually 1116 01:05:25.480 --> 01:05:27.480 says it is more perfect for all that to laugh 1117 01:05:27.559 --> 01:05:28.199 and to not laugh. 1118 01:05:29.039 --> 01:05:31.679 Well, it is the perfect thing is to have an 1119 01:05:31.760 --> 01:05:39.159 unlimited amount of toes actually, so so it's interesting, it's right, yeah, 1120 01:05:39.480 --> 01:05:40.320 but that's not right. 1121 01:05:40.679 --> 01:05:43.800 But Christianity is absurd but not that Okay? Sure? No? 1122 01:05:45.360 --> 01:05:45.480 Uh. 1123 01:05:46.159 --> 01:05:51.599 Small question to viewers, Uh is this stream frozen? What's 1124 01:05:51.639 --> 01:05:55.840 happening here? I don't see any uh new chat coming 1125 01:05:55.920 --> 01:05:59.800 in the last chat is from several minutes ago. Uh, 1126 01:06:00.199 --> 01:06:02.760 I see some reactions. What's happening. I don't get it. 1127 01:06:03.280 --> 01:06:05.320 It's weird. I just checked on two different platforms and 1128 01:06:05.360 --> 01:06:07.239 I don't see the chat updating. 1129 01:06:07.880 --> 01:06:12.280 For some weird reason, my chat was kind of freezing. 1130 01:06:14.159 --> 01:06:18.920 But if I look, if I stream on my phone, 1131 01:06:19.679 --> 01:06:21.480 your chat, you and I are talking. 1132 01:06:21.920 --> 01:06:24.599 Yeah, the last chat is from behind you pal. 1133 01:06:25.119 --> 01:06:28.079 Yeah, but you and I are still talking. 1134 01:06:28.360 --> 01:06:31.760 But people are reacting with laughter and heart and hundred 1135 01:06:32.480 --> 01:06:35.639 and now it's going. Now it's going, Okay, fantastic. That's interesting. 1136 01:06:36.320 --> 01:06:44.119 That was weird. That was weird anyway. Yeah, so talking 1137 01:06:44.159 --> 01:06:49.440 about the nature the nature off of Allah, there's a okay, wait, 1138 01:06:49.800 --> 01:06:52.239 there's a sending error, but we hear you. Okay, I see, 1139 01:06:52.280 --> 01:06:54.159 I see. Apparently there's a there's a problem with the 1140 01:06:54.679 --> 01:07:00.719 with the YouTube chat. But we are still on so everything. Sorry, Okay, 1141 01:07:00.840 --> 01:07:03.519 all right, thanks for telling me, Thanks Sarah for telling me. 1142 01:07:04.159 --> 01:07:04.199 So. 1143 01:07:05.679 --> 01:07:11.679 Speaking of disagreements, speaking of Islamic beliefs and and all that, 1144 01:07:11.840 --> 01:07:16.320 there are certain powerful Islamic positions that I would like 1145 01:07:16.440 --> 01:07:20.599 to challenge you with today in order to I know 1146 01:07:20.719 --> 01:07:22.840 that there are you know, some Muslims that have been 1147 01:07:22.920 --> 01:07:27.760 intellectually stronger, some not so much. But there are some 1148 01:07:27.920 --> 01:07:31.119 arguments that I that I have heard, which would which 1149 01:07:31.159 --> 01:07:35.159 could change your mind when Islam. So one of those 1150 01:07:35.400 --> 01:07:40.760 is the following, why did Jesus and Mary eat food? 1151 01:07:46.000 --> 01:07:52.360 Are you? I can't tell if you're like, you're being silly, right, yes? So, 1152 01:07:52.920 --> 01:07:55.599 I mean I could understand maybe thinking, well, if Jesus 1153 01:07:55.840 --> 01:07:58.159 is divine, why does he need to eat? But what 1154 01:07:58.440 --> 01:07:59.920 so they include Mary in the subjection. 1155 01:08:01.199 --> 01:08:08.280 The Quran says that the Quran says that Jesus and 1156 01:08:09.079 --> 01:08:11.719 Mary were just regular humans and they both ate food. 1157 01:08:11.920 --> 01:08:16.279 So yeah, The question here is when it is quite clear, 1158 01:08:16.359 --> 01:08:19.039 as the Quran says that Jesus and Mary both ate food, 1159 01:08:21.359 --> 01:08:23.119 why do you consider them both gods? 1160 01:08:25.039 --> 01:08:27.279 So, first of all, Mary isn't a god, She's not 1161 01:08:27.399 --> 01:08:31.199 a goddess. She's a creature. She will always be a creature. 1162 01:08:31.680 --> 01:08:34.439 We think creatures can be exalted by God to have 1163 01:08:35.079 --> 01:08:38.920 honor and status above others. We think about this even 1164 01:08:38.960 --> 01:08:41.960 in the human realm, a king has honored status above 1165 01:08:42.079 --> 01:08:44.279 you know, the rest of the people in his kingdom. 1166 01:08:44.640 --> 01:08:46.399 So in the same way, in the kingdom of God, 1167 01:08:46.520 --> 01:08:49.199 God can honor and exalt people. We see in Psalmn 1168 01:08:49.239 --> 01:08:51.880 forty five, the Mother of the Queen standing next to 1169 01:08:51.920 --> 01:08:54.279 the King in gold of Ofir. We think that's a 1170 01:08:54.359 --> 01:08:57.159 type and image of the Virgin Mary. Now when it 1171 01:08:57.239 --> 01:08:59.279 comes to the Son of God, we think that as 1172 01:08:59.319 --> 01:09:02.880 a subject or an agent, he's identical to the second 1173 01:09:02.920 --> 01:09:05.760 person of the Godhead in the Trinity, the Logos, the 1174 01:09:05.840 --> 01:09:07.760 Son of God. So even though he has a fully 1175 01:09:07.840 --> 01:09:10.399 human nature, we don't believe he's a human person or 1176 01:09:10.439 --> 01:09:14.079 a human hypostasis. That would be what's called the Nestorian view, 1177 01:09:14.119 --> 01:09:16.680 and that's what the Council of Ephesus rejects. So we 1178 01:09:16.760 --> 01:09:18.760 don't think that he's a human person, but he has 1179 01:09:18.840 --> 01:09:23.239 a fully human nature. That's premised on the Orthodox and 1180 01:09:23.560 --> 01:09:26.439 patrictic teaching of the distinction between nature and person. And 1181 01:09:26.520 --> 01:09:28.399 that's partly how we have the doctrine of the Trinity. 1182 01:09:28.760 --> 01:09:32.039 It's how we have Christology, and it's how humans have 1183 01:09:32.159 --> 01:09:35.800 a distinction. We would say between a I'm the person Jay, 1184 01:09:36.159 --> 01:09:38.359 but I have the human nature that you have. We 1185 01:09:38.439 --> 01:09:41.720 all have a common human nature. You're the person ridvon 1186 01:09:41.840 --> 01:09:45.399 I'm the person Jay, and there's a distinction there between that. 1187 01:09:45.560 --> 01:09:48.359 So likewise, in Christ, he's a divine person, but he 1188 01:09:48.399 --> 01:09:50.239 has a fully human nature and thus having a fully 1189 01:09:50.319 --> 01:09:54.079 human nature, he would get tired, he would cry, he 1190 01:09:54.159 --> 01:09:58.880 would need sustenance and food because he willed to have 1191 01:09:59.079 --> 01:10:01.840 a fully human nature. So a lot of times you'll 1192 01:10:01.880 --> 01:10:05.880 notice in Islamic debates everything is sort of assumed to 1193 01:10:05.920 --> 01:10:08.319 be either or either he's this or he's that. It's 1194 01:10:08.359 --> 01:10:12.000 either this or that, and in most orthodox theology it's 1195 01:10:12.039 --> 01:10:15.359 a both. And so we're usually saying there's a relationship 1196 01:10:15.720 --> 01:10:18.439 in terms of how grace works. Grace and free will 1197 01:10:18.520 --> 01:10:21.520 work together in synergy. Christ human nature and divine nature 1198 01:10:21.560 --> 01:10:23.720 are fully, fully human, fully divine, and they work together 1199 01:10:23.800 --> 01:10:30.159 in synergy. So likewise, here his human nature is real, 1200 01:10:31.000 --> 01:10:34.239 and so there's no trick going on. You had, for example, 1201 01:10:34.239 --> 01:10:36.880 in the early Church, certain groups that taught that Jesus 1202 01:10:36.880 --> 01:10:38.720 didn't really have a human nature was kind of like 1203 01:10:38.760 --> 01:10:42.479 a phantasm or a hologram. They're called the Dacatists. And 1204 01:10:42.680 --> 01:10:46.119 so one of the ways that Jesus, i think, wanted 1205 01:10:46.199 --> 01:10:49.199 to demonstrate that he was fully human is that he's 1206 01:10:49.279 --> 01:10:52.640 engaging in all of the activities that a human nature 1207 01:10:52.680 --> 01:10:55.520 would engage in, eating, sleeping, and so forth. So as 1208 01:10:55.600 --> 01:10:58.600 a divine subject, he didn't need those things, but he 1209 01:10:58.720 --> 01:11:00.000 willed to undergo those things. 1210 01:11:00.880 --> 01:11:03.840 So basically we can't answer the question, this powerful question 1211 01:11:03.960 --> 01:11:07.720 from the Quran, which says here in chapter five, verse 1212 01:11:07.720 --> 01:11:10.119 seventy five, it says, the Messiah son of Mary was 1213 01:11:10.159 --> 01:11:14.520 not but a messenger. Messengers have passed on before him, 1214 01:11:14.920 --> 01:11:18.359 and his mother was a supporter of truth. They both 1215 01:11:18.520 --> 01:11:21.239 used to eat food. Look how we make clear to 1216 01:11:21.359 --> 01:11:24.399 them the signs. Then look how they are deluded. This 1217 01:11:24.600 --> 01:11:26.760 is obviously a very powerful Quran verse. 1218 01:11:27.119 --> 01:11:30.359 And so the chorn trying to argue that because they 1219 01:11:30.399 --> 01:11:31.560 hate they were only human. 1220 01:11:33.079 --> 01:11:36.000 I mean, yeah, yes, it's and it's a very powerful, 1221 01:11:36.199 --> 01:11:40.840 powerful argument which nobody has has yet succeeded to debunk. 1222 01:11:41.039 --> 01:11:44.199 So far, nobody has been able to refute this. The 1223 01:11:44.279 --> 01:11:46.279 Kuran has put this challenge out there forever, and not 1224 01:11:46.359 --> 01:11:48.880 a single person has ever come across and and and 1225 01:11:49.039 --> 01:11:51.359 refuted it, which just shows that the Kuran is all 1226 01:11:51.439 --> 01:11:53.199 powerful and fantastic. 1227 01:11:54.239 --> 01:11:54.359 Uh. 1228 01:11:55.000 --> 01:11:58.760 Even ironically, even in the Torah, you have the presentation 1229 01:11:59.159 --> 01:12:01.359 that most went up on the mountain and had a 1230 01:12:01.479 --> 01:12:05.079 meal with God. Abraham had a meal with God in 1231 01:12:05.560 --> 01:12:08.800 the famous you know, yeah, meal with Abra. And so 1232 01:12:09.359 --> 01:12:12.039 even prior to the incarnation, is still possible for God 1233 01:12:12.119 --> 01:12:14.560 to have a manifestation and to engage in what we 1234 01:12:14.640 --> 01:12:17.920 think are human activities, not because he needed those things, 1235 01:12:18.039 --> 01:12:20.960 but as a condescension to us. That's that's our view 1236 01:12:20.960 --> 01:12:21.119 of it. 1237 01:12:21.920 --> 01:12:26.239 Well, I would say that those those parts in the 1238 01:12:26.439 --> 01:12:30.039 scripture which happened to disagree with the Kuran are obviously correct, 1239 01:12:30.119 --> 01:12:32.720 obviously obviously. 1240 01:12:33.239 --> 01:12:34.800 But you know, it was something I noticed about that 1241 01:12:35.159 --> 01:12:37.359 When you start to say that, I know that that's like, 1242 01:12:37.439 --> 01:12:39.000 on the face of it, it's a double standard. But 1243 01:12:39.399 --> 01:12:42.880 there's another level to which that argument fails because when 1244 01:12:42.880 --> 01:12:45.640 I wait a minute, the Quran, let's say, in the 1245 01:12:45.720 --> 01:12:49.920 first tensuras like it sort of refers to and rep 1246 01:12:50.000 --> 01:12:54.680 and assumes like gigantic sections of the Old Testament. So 1247 01:12:54.760 --> 01:12:59.680 in other words, you've got gigantic sections of Genesis, uh, Exodus, 1248 01:13:00.479 --> 01:13:04.359 historical books with David Like, it's not just one person 1249 01:13:04.439 --> 01:13:08.319 that's referred to, it's like their story too. So we're 1250 01:13:08.359 --> 01:13:10.439 running into deeper problems when we start to think about 1251 01:13:10.439 --> 01:13:12.880 the fact that when I wait a minute, if if 1252 01:13:13.159 --> 01:13:16.920 the Quran in many places of firms gigantic portions of 1253 01:13:16.960 --> 01:13:19.520 the Torah and the writings, but then we're going to 1254 01:13:19.560 --> 01:13:23.000 turn around and say, oh, well, that section, that part's corrupt. 1255 01:13:23.800 --> 01:13:26.279 Do you see how it's an even deeper problem. But 1256 01:13:26.279 --> 01:13:28.640 wait a minute, and these other places you've actually confirmed 1257 01:13:28.680 --> 01:13:29.239 these whole. 1258 01:13:29.079 --> 01:13:33.319 Stories exactly exactly. Here's another churn verse that I want 1259 01:13:33.319 --> 01:13:39.079 to show you, which in chapter Oh wait, wrong, wrong one, 1260 01:13:39.520 --> 01:13:42.920 wrong one. I thought I just opened the right one here, okay. Koran, 1261 01:13:43.079 --> 01:13:46.319 chapter five, verse thirty two, it says here the following. 1262 01:13:47.880 --> 01:13:50.760 Because of that, we decreed upon the children of Israel 1263 01:13:51.439 --> 01:13:54.479 that whoever kills a soul, unless for a soul or 1264 01:13:54.600 --> 01:13:57.119 for corruption done in the land, it is as if 1265 01:13:57.159 --> 01:14:02.199 he had killed all mankind, and whoever saves one, it 1266 01:14:02.319 --> 01:14:05.720 is as if he had saved all mankind, and our 1267 01:14:05.760 --> 01:14:08.439 messages had certainly come to them with clear proofs than indeed, 1268 01:14:08.479 --> 01:14:11.600 many of them throughout the land were transgressors. So this 1269 01:14:11.760 --> 01:14:14.760 is a This is a Quran verse in which Allah 1270 01:14:14.880 --> 01:14:20.800 supposedly says that it was he who told the children 1271 01:14:20.880 --> 01:14:25.159 of Israel the Jews that whoever kills one soul, that is, 1272 01:14:25.359 --> 01:14:27.880 it is as if he killed all mankind, and whoever 1273 01:14:28.000 --> 01:14:30.359 saves one soul, it is as if he had saved 1274 01:14:30.479 --> 01:14:31.399 all mankind. 1275 01:14:32.680 --> 01:14:33.720 Isn't this from the talent? 1276 01:14:34.560 --> 01:14:35.319 That's the problem. 1277 01:14:36.079 --> 01:14:40.119 Yeah, this is the problem is the famous Talmut quote 1278 01:14:40.119 --> 01:14:43.039 because it's yeah, it's cited even by Jews today, like 1279 01:14:43.119 --> 01:14:45.319 Jews will cite this as a principle of Judaism. 1280 01:14:45.960 --> 01:14:48.640 Yeah, exactly, And this is the problem. This is actually 1281 01:14:48.800 --> 01:14:51.359 something that displays the problem with Islam, which is uh 1282 01:14:51.920 --> 01:14:55.439 which relates to what we talked about when we discussed 1283 01:14:55.600 --> 01:14:59.000 where Muhammed got his information from and how much he 1284 01:14:59.119 --> 01:15:03.199 was aware of it. So what is most likely the 1285 01:15:03.319 --> 01:15:06.479 case here, What most likely happened here is that he's 1286 01:15:06.560 --> 01:15:10.760 in the presence of Jews in Medina, and Jews famously 1287 01:15:11.399 --> 01:15:15.000 say this phrase how and that this is what they are, 1288 01:15:15.279 --> 01:15:16.960 this is what they teach and what they are taught 1289 01:15:17.000 --> 01:15:20.000 according to their book. And Muhammadan thinks that this is 1290 01:15:20.079 --> 01:15:24.359 actually found in a revelation from a law, although it 1291 01:15:24.439 --> 01:15:28.520 is not. This is literally just a Rabbinic interpretation, and 1292 01:15:28.640 --> 01:15:32.319 then he adopts this into the Quran and says that 1293 01:15:32.479 --> 01:15:35.960 this is what Allah said to the Jews, which is 1294 01:15:36.079 --> 01:15:38.199 very funny because on the one hand, you have Muslims 1295 01:15:38.239 --> 01:15:42.079 nowadays arguing that the Bible was corrupted, was partially corrupted, 1296 01:15:42.640 --> 01:15:46.079 and there are some divine revelations in it, still but 1297 01:15:46.199 --> 01:15:47.960 most of it is or much of it is corrupt. 1298 01:15:48.279 --> 01:15:51.880 But then the actually but then the Quran actually wrongly 1299 01:15:52.079 --> 01:15:56.159 appeals to a book or a text it was written 1300 01:15:56.239 --> 01:15:59.920 by humans as an interpretation of divine rene. 1301 01:16:00.199 --> 01:16:01.279 That it's that it's. 1302 01:16:02.960 --> 01:16:03.960 Exactly exactly. 1303 01:16:04.079 --> 01:16:07.680 It's just really displaced the w Yeah, that's just like, yeah, 1304 01:16:07.720 --> 01:16:10.680 what does did Allah not know the source? 1305 01:16:11.720 --> 01:16:13.000 Exactly exactly? 1306 01:16:13.560 --> 01:16:14.000 Great point. 1307 01:16:14.840 --> 01:16:16.680 When you bring this up nowadays, you will get excuses 1308 01:16:16.720 --> 01:16:19.239 from Muslims uh, which go into the direction of, well, 1309 01:16:19.800 --> 01:16:22.560 h you know, a lot told people something and maybe 1310 01:16:22.640 --> 01:16:23.840 this was at some point in the. 1311 01:16:27.319 --> 01:16:30.960 It's just well maybe at one point in Torah and 1312 01:16:31.039 --> 01:16:32.199 it got lost or something. 1313 01:16:32.439 --> 01:16:34.279 Yeah. Yeah, and it doesn't even make sense, like it 1314 01:16:34.359 --> 01:16:36.399 wasn't a Torah. But the and the Jews, they they 1315 01:16:36.560 --> 01:16:39.319 they didn't bother putting it back into the Torah, but 1316 01:16:39.439 --> 01:16:40.600 they did write it into the. 1317 01:16:40.800 --> 01:16:43.720 They put it in the in the talent. We're going 1318 01:16:43.760 --> 01:16:45.479 to erase it from the Torah and then we'll stick 1319 01:16:45.520 --> 01:16:46.039 it in the talent. 1320 01:16:46.119 --> 01:16:48.479 Okay, it doesn't make much sense. 1321 01:16:49.039 --> 01:16:49.159 Uh. 1322 01:16:49.840 --> 01:16:52.039 Next question that I have for you is we just 1323 01:16:52.079 --> 01:16:54.720 talked about Jesus eating food, and Jesus wasn't an environment 1324 01:16:54.760 --> 01:17:00.720 that was a Jewish environment. So Mohammed said that that 1325 01:17:01.000 --> 01:17:06.399 meat decays and goes bad because of because of the 1326 01:17:06.479 --> 01:17:09.600 children of Israel's because of the Jews. So can we 1327 01:17:09.720 --> 01:17:13.239 assume therefore that Jesus most likely also ate meat that 1328 01:17:13.319 --> 01:17:13.960 would decay. 1329 01:17:17.760 --> 01:17:20.039 Okay, So this is a new one to me. I'm 1330 01:17:20.079 --> 01:17:21.800 not an understanding of the argument. I'm trying to figure 1331 01:17:21.800 --> 01:17:23.680 out where they would the way they would get that. 1332 01:17:23.760 --> 01:17:25.800 One thing I'm noticing is that a lot of the 1333 01:17:26.000 --> 01:17:28.520 things that kind of sound odd or that you hear 1334 01:17:28.680 --> 01:17:31.319 referenced in Islam like this and kind of like when 1335 01:17:31.359 --> 01:17:33.920 you were bringing up the pig thing like it's it 1336 01:17:34.159 --> 01:17:38.840 sounds like places in like Ezekiel, or like areas of 1337 01:17:39.640 --> 01:17:43.880 the Old Testament where he misheard or misunderstood what it meant, 1338 01:17:43.960 --> 01:17:46.760 and then he like repeats it. So this sounds like 1339 01:17:47.439 --> 01:17:50.239 like the mana would be set out over and I 1340 01:17:50.319 --> 01:17:53.399 know that mana's not meat, but it would go bad overnight. 1341 01:17:53.520 --> 01:17:56.800 So does he think that the food given to the 1342 01:17:56.920 --> 01:17:59.319 Jews and the wilderness and it decayed and went bad 1343 01:17:59.399 --> 01:18:00.479 so they couldn't collect it. 1344 01:18:01.079 --> 01:18:03.800 I mean, it literally says the prophet said, were it 1345 01:18:03.960 --> 01:18:07.039 not for beny Israel, So the children of Israel, meat 1346 01:18:07.079 --> 01:18:10.760 would not decay, and were it not for Eve, no 1347 01:18:10.920 --> 01:18:12.560 woman would ever betray her husband. 1348 01:18:13.279 --> 01:18:17.720 So meat obviously get a connection between Eve and the 1349 01:18:17.880 --> 01:18:21.520 fall in in like of Adam and Eve, the admin 1350 01:18:21.560 --> 01:18:23.640 e fall, and so that leads to decay and corruption 1351 01:18:23.720 --> 01:18:26.399 in the world and thus kind of like Eve fell 1352 01:18:27.119 --> 01:18:29.880 in the garden of Eden. I mean, this is really bizarre. 1353 01:18:29.920 --> 01:18:31.520 I have no idea. This is a new one to me. 1354 01:18:32.239 --> 01:18:34.239 Well, obviously meat goes bad because of the Jews, so 1355 01:18:35.279 --> 01:18:38.560 I would I would always uh, you know, remember if 1356 01:18:38.600 --> 01:18:41.079 you have if you ever store meat and it decays, 1357 01:18:41.119 --> 01:18:42.880 it goes back and has a bad smell to it, 1358 01:18:42.920 --> 01:18:45.760 and you can't use it anymore because of the Jews. 1359 01:18:45.640 --> 01:18:48.640 You can blame you can blame blame that for that. 1360 01:18:51.279 --> 01:18:54.199 So in a minute, they have to have some explanation. 1361 01:18:54.359 --> 01:18:58.800 So tell me, steal man, steal man, what's next? 1362 01:19:01.760 --> 01:19:03.760 I mean, you can you can look into explanations which 1363 01:19:03.760 --> 01:19:09.159 were developed, which were developed by Muslims later on as 1364 01:19:09.199 --> 01:19:12.239 an interpretation to what in the world this could mean. 1365 01:19:12.359 --> 01:19:14.760 And you have different different explanations that I saw here 1366 01:19:14.800 --> 01:19:19.000 and there, or saying oh it doesn't say that this 1367 01:19:19.159 --> 01:19:22.279 is not making a scientific statement on how meat is 1368 01:19:22.359 --> 01:19:26.760 decaying because Jews did something or because Jews exist. It 1369 01:19:26.880 --> 01:19:30.399 is merely pointing out that that meat was made to 1370 01:19:30.560 --> 01:19:34.079 decay by Allah due to the wrongdoings of the children 1371 01:19:34.159 --> 01:19:36.760 of Israel. That doesn't change anything at all. It's just 1372 01:19:36.880 --> 01:19:42.319 it's it's it's ridiculous in any case. But anyway, ever 1373 01:19:42.399 --> 01:19:44.239 since I heard this, ever since I've read this and 1374 01:19:44.439 --> 01:19:49.119 know this, when I buy food, daili meat or something, 1375 01:19:49.199 --> 01:19:52.000 and I see it's expired and it has a bad 1376 01:19:52.039 --> 01:19:54.159 spellic freaking juice, man. 1377 01:19:55.640 --> 01:19:57.960 So this is all meat in the world though, right, Yeah, 1378 01:19:58.279 --> 01:20:01.000 so if you're like a Chinese peasant, right and your 1379 01:20:01.159 --> 01:20:02.199 your fish goes. 1380 01:20:02.000 --> 01:20:07.800 Bad juice, okay, juice, I mean. 1381 01:20:09.600 --> 01:20:11.640 Not even I've never even heard of Jews. 1382 01:20:11.439 --> 01:20:14.560 But that wants the Jews. Yeah right, it's because it's 1383 01:20:14.600 --> 01:20:17.399 it's ignorance, of course. Something. If if you don't know 1384 01:20:17.560 --> 01:20:19.119 that it's the Jews, then you might not know because 1385 01:20:19.119 --> 01:20:21.079 you don't know what a Jew is, but it is. 1386 01:20:21.239 --> 01:20:23.239 It doesn't change the fact that it's still the Jews fault. 1387 01:20:23.439 --> 01:20:27.439 So tiny mustache man had been successful and we didn't 1388 01:20:27.479 --> 01:20:30.760 have Jews, would meat be like immortal. 1389 01:20:31.319 --> 01:20:36.920 Let's see what they took from us, like all meat would. 1390 01:20:37.000 --> 01:20:40.720 Would be beef jerky, automatical, eternal meat. 1391 01:20:41.079 --> 01:20:44.600 Exactly, we would never ever have to have to have 1392 01:20:44.720 --> 01:20:46.880 to care about storing meat properly. 1393 01:20:47.000 --> 01:20:50.920 Again, uh so this is like, this is like Russian 1394 01:20:51.039 --> 01:20:53.079 Roulette of like the craziest had eats. 1395 01:20:53.199 --> 01:20:53.680 So you're. 1396 01:20:55.439 --> 01:21:00.800 Basically you're totally debunking all Christian theology today by these 1397 01:21:02.199 --> 01:21:05.319 iron clad hadiths that I don't know about. 1398 01:21:05.479 --> 01:21:13.520 So you've stopped me exactly. Speaking of culinary miracles, the 1399 01:21:13.640 --> 01:21:14.560 next one would. 1400 01:21:14.359 --> 01:21:20.720 Be invoke Saint Gordon Ramsey and Saint Guy Fieri for 1401 01:21:21.359 --> 01:21:23.319 any culinary apologetic challenges. 1402 01:21:26.199 --> 01:21:28.520 When a fly falls into your soup, you have to 1403 01:21:28.560 --> 01:21:30.439 make sure that you dunk it fully in so that 1404 01:21:30.560 --> 01:21:33.039 the other wing also touches the soup, because that will 1405 01:21:34.000 --> 01:21:36.279 that will cure the disease that that that is in 1406 01:21:36.479 --> 01:21:40.560 the fly, and then you can eat it again. Why 1407 01:21:40.640 --> 01:21:43.119 did Christianity never inform us off this beautiful. 1408 01:21:44.800 --> 01:21:48.760 We were deceived by Jews and we we didn't tell 1409 01:21:48.800 --> 01:21:51.640 you guys the truth about a fly in the sup. 1410 01:21:52.199 --> 01:21:53.600 Well that's that's actually a good point. 1411 01:21:54.439 --> 01:21:57.920 Wait a minute, I just realized something. Jeff Goldblum is 1412 01:21:58.000 --> 01:21:58.399 in the fly. 1413 01:21:58.720 --> 01:22:01.600 He becomes the fly he's a Jew. 1414 01:22:02.239 --> 01:22:06.239 Jess a Jew. I'm noticing something here. 1415 01:22:06.960 --> 01:22:12.319 Oh oh see, it wasn't the rated from right right 1416 01:22:12.359 --> 01:22:14.880 that the prophet said, if a fly falls into your drink. 1417 01:22:15.520 --> 01:22:18.439 In other in other narrations, it's as soup, dip it 1418 01:22:18.640 --> 01:22:21.079 into it, then throw it away, for one of its 1419 01:22:21.159 --> 01:22:23.520 wings is a disease and the other is a cure. 1420 01:22:23.880 --> 01:22:28.760 So this almost sounds like it sounds like some kind 1421 01:22:28.760 --> 01:22:33.119 of a parable from like the Dalai Lama or something. Right, 1422 01:22:34.279 --> 01:22:35.840 what does this mean? I don't know, but it sounds 1423 01:22:35.920 --> 01:22:38.000 like something that something that the Dalai Lama would say 1424 01:22:38.039 --> 01:22:38.760 and mystify you. 1425 01:22:38.880 --> 01:22:43.359 Right, yeah, yeah, you could probably expect some some deeper meanings, 1426 01:22:43.439 --> 01:22:48.039 deeper understandings, philosophical, you know, understandings revelations about this this whole. 1427 01:22:48.479 --> 01:22:51.439 We can ask doctor Khalil what the neo platonic esoteric 1428 01:22:51.560 --> 01:22:57.199 meaning of that is, all right, because I know they 1429 01:22:57.199 --> 01:22:58.279 don't he doesn't accept those. 1430 01:22:58.640 --> 01:23:01.319 I'm just making say, yeah, yeah yeah. The next problem 1431 01:23:01.720 --> 01:23:07.239 would be so Christianity or Christians failed to point out 1432 01:23:07.359 --> 01:23:12.560 why Jews are wrong forever uh and the Quran successfully 1433 01:23:12.640 --> 01:23:16.439 came in chapter nine, verse thirty and pointed out why 1434 01:23:16.560 --> 01:23:20.079 Jews are no longer accepted. And it's said that that 1435 01:23:20.239 --> 01:23:23.119 Jews say Ezra is the son of our law, and 1436 01:23:23.319 --> 01:23:25.159 Christians say the Messiah is the son of our law, 1437 01:23:25.319 --> 01:23:26.680 and that this is what, this is why they are 1438 01:23:26.760 --> 01:23:31.359 regarded disbelievers and trip be fought. So why did why 1439 01:23:31.439 --> 01:23:34.159 did Christians never say anything about the fact that Jews 1440 01:23:34.239 --> 01:23:35.800 believe Ezra is the son of our law? 1441 01:23:36.439 --> 01:23:39.399 Yeah, isn't this one of those weird, mysterious passages that 1442 01:23:40.359 --> 01:23:42.840 we don't exactly know what the heck this is talking about. 1443 01:23:43.000 --> 01:23:45.399 I mean, first of all, where did Mohammad get the 1444 01:23:45.479 --> 01:23:50.800 idea that anybody takes Ezra to be a son of God? 1445 01:23:52.199 --> 01:23:54.560 Well, if the Quran says it, it must be true, 1446 01:23:54.600 --> 01:23:55.039 so I know. 1447 01:23:55.159 --> 01:23:59.439 But I mean, like it's just really bizarre. I mean, 1448 01:24:00.600 --> 01:24:03.119 Ezra has a very minor place in the Bible. I 1449 01:24:03.199 --> 01:24:05.479 mean there's books of Ezra, right, and then there's the 1450 01:24:05.640 --> 01:24:07.880 you know Ezra. I mean, he's not in a minor figure. 1451 01:24:07.880 --> 01:24:10.479 He's an important figure because Ezra is really the beginning 1452 01:24:10.520 --> 01:24:13.640 of the Synagogue system. So after Moses, you get this 1453 01:24:13.800 --> 01:24:16.840 idea that Israel needs to have people to teach the 1454 01:24:16.920 --> 01:24:20.720 law all throughout Israel, and so Ezra helps to organize 1455 01:24:20.760 --> 01:24:23.880 what's called the synagogue system throughout Israel and then by 1456 01:24:23.920 --> 01:24:27.760 extension outside of Israel. So, I mean, he's an important 1457 01:24:27.920 --> 01:24:31.600 historical figure, but you know, he's not He's only referenced 1458 01:24:31.680 --> 01:24:33.399 like in the Book of Ezra that no'more, maybe in 1459 01:24:33.399 --> 01:24:35.600 a couple other places, So he's not a huge figure 1460 01:24:35.600 --> 01:24:39.560 in terms of the text themselves. And so why or 1461 01:24:39.600 --> 01:24:41.199 where they would have come up with the idea that 1462 01:24:41.359 --> 01:24:44.760 anybody takes Ezra to be a son of God or 1463 01:24:44.800 --> 01:24:50.640 a Messiah. Maybe because maybe he had heard that Jews 1464 01:24:50.760 --> 01:24:55.079 believe that God is the father to Israel, and thus 1465 01:24:55.279 --> 01:24:58.520 Israel is a son of God. That maybe that's the 1466 01:24:58.560 --> 01:25:02.119 explanation for the passage Ezra as son of God. And 1467 01:25:02.279 --> 01:25:04.920 then but but no Jew thinks that Ezra was the 1468 01:25:05.000 --> 01:25:06.359 Messiah son of God. 1469 01:25:06.960 --> 01:25:09.039 So I think he's also mentioned in the Book of 1470 01:25:09.199 --> 01:25:16.119 Esther And but yeah, this is a very interesting mystery. 1471 01:25:16.960 --> 01:25:19.479 There are some videos of that. There's this one guy, 1472 01:25:19.920 --> 01:25:23.279 Corey gil Schuster. He goes in and asks questions to 1473 01:25:24.520 --> 01:25:27.800 Israelis and Palestinian Arabs all the time in the streets, 1474 01:25:28.000 --> 01:25:31.039 and I think there are two videos where he goes 1475 01:25:31.079 --> 01:25:36.319 around and asks Jews if they believe Ezra, Ezra is 1476 01:25:36.359 --> 01:25:39.680 the son of God. And they're all baffled. They're like, what, wait, what, 1477 01:25:40.399 --> 01:25:41.600 I don't know what you're talking about. 1478 01:25:42.439 --> 01:25:45.159 Look, I'm trying to see what what would the Koran 1479 01:25:45.239 --> 01:25:50.680 study study Bible, the Koran study Bibles. This is the 1480 01:25:50.800 --> 01:25:56.800 opinion of one Jew, someone named finnha ibn Ozra, that 1481 01:25:57.039 --> 01:26:01.119 it was the belief of some Jews that Ezra was 1482 01:26:01.159 --> 01:26:03.760 the son of God. I mean, so, so the so 1483 01:26:03.960 --> 01:26:06.399 Mohammad is taking and by the way, where does this 1484 01:26:06.479 --> 01:26:08.600 come from? This idea that this is from a certain 1485 01:26:08.680 --> 01:26:14.279 Jew called finnha Azura, that some Jews believed that Ezra 1486 01:26:14.439 --> 01:26:18.079 was son of God. However, this this belief eventually disappeared. 1487 01:26:18.600 --> 01:26:20.720 That's funny because this is similar to their claim that, 1488 01:26:21.560 --> 01:26:24.760 oh the real this is what the Daalwa guys that 1489 01:26:24.920 --> 01:26:27.640 the fontane guy. Have you heard his new explanation he's saying. 1490 01:26:28.199 --> 01:26:30.520 He's saying that, well, when the Bible talks or when 1491 01:26:30.560 --> 01:26:33.520 the Koran talks about the checking the Koran with the 1492 01:26:33.640 --> 01:26:36.640 Torah and and jeel, this is a Torah and in 1493 01:26:36.760 --> 01:26:39.279 jel that existed in Medina at that time that no 1494 01:26:39.319 --> 01:26:44.520 one has anymore. That's the explanation. Yeah, right, but if 1495 01:26:44.560 --> 01:26:47.000 you remember the Koran says, you check it with what 1496 01:26:47.199 --> 01:26:50.520 they have among them. Right, Well, how could Jews do 1497 01:26:50.680 --> 01:26:53.199 this and Christians do this if it was only this 1498 01:26:54.319 --> 01:26:58.119 minuscule unknown Torah and in Ingeel in Medina that no 1499 01:26:58.159 --> 01:27:01.439 one else in the world has or has anymore. Yeah, yeah, 1500 01:27:01.840 --> 01:27:05.039 basically a pointless challenge or confirmation. 1501 01:27:05.359 --> 01:27:07.159 It doesn't make any sense. Also given the given the 1502 01:27:07.239 --> 01:27:13.159 fact that the Quran basically acknowledges and endorses and guarantees, 1503 01:27:13.640 --> 01:27:16.239 you know, safety in the hereafter to Jews and Christians 1504 01:27:16.279 --> 01:27:20.319 initially and doesn't ever bring up any issue with the 1505 01:27:20.399 --> 01:27:25.279 scripture that they follow. And you have to assume and 1506 01:27:25.439 --> 01:27:29.039 given all the versions about Jews and Christians and the 1507 01:27:29.159 --> 01:27:32.920 and the scripture, that that the scripture they have Jews 1508 01:27:33.000 --> 01:27:36.359 and Christians at that time in general is okay, is good, 1509 01:27:36.760 --> 01:27:41.920 is acceptable, and that scripture is we have it. We 1510 01:27:42.079 --> 01:27:44.520 have the contents of the Torah and the Gospel from 1511 01:27:44.520 --> 01:27:46.399 long before Muhammed exactly. 1512 01:27:47.079 --> 01:27:49.399 Just the fact that we have so many manuscripts prior 1513 01:27:49.479 --> 01:27:52.439 to the existence of Muhammad disproves this whole sol er. 1514 01:27:52.520 --> 01:27:53.920 But what I'm saying is like it seems like the 1515 01:27:54.039 --> 01:27:57.720 same type of ad hoc answer that they exactly. Oh 1516 01:27:57.800 --> 01:28:01.119 so this was a specific Jew who believe that there 1517 01:28:01.199 --> 01:28:03.359 was a sect of Jews that thought that Ezra was 1518 01:28:03.439 --> 01:28:05.439 the son of God and that they don't exist anymore. 1519 01:28:05.920 --> 01:28:08.439 The problem with that explanation, which I which I heard 1520 01:28:08.840 --> 01:28:11.960 a lot, is the following hadith here. It's a very 1521 01:28:12.000 --> 01:28:13.520 long hardith. I'm not going to read the whole thing 1522 01:28:14.399 --> 01:28:18.840 Sahibukari seven four three nine. And if you go through 1523 01:28:18.920 --> 01:28:22.920 this hadith, there is here is Mohammed explaining to his 1524 01:28:23.119 --> 01:28:26.439 followers what will happen on the day of Resurrection. And 1525 01:28:26.560 --> 01:28:30.520 then it describes how the Christians and the Jews will 1526 01:28:30.560 --> 01:28:33.840 be brought before Allah and what Allah will do to them, 1527 01:28:33.880 --> 01:28:39.920 and he will ask them questions. It says, So then 1528 01:28:40.039 --> 01:28:41.880 Hell will it be presented to them as if it 1529 01:28:41.920 --> 01:28:44.159 were a mirage. And it will be said to the Jews, 1530 01:28:45.159 --> 01:28:48.520 what did you used to worship? They will reply, we 1531 01:28:48.720 --> 01:28:51.000 used to worship Ezra, the son of Allah. 1532 01:28:53.399 --> 01:28:56.319 Yeah, that's a great point, and that's which how eth 1533 01:28:56.399 --> 01:28:57.399 is that gonna make a note of that? 1534 01:28:59.560 --> 01:29:05.079 Sa Hippocari is seven nine, or you can probably easier 1535 01:29:05.159 --> 01:29:10.520 find it with these references here. Volume nine, book ninety 1536 01:29:10.560 --> 01:29:13.199 three five three to two. But yeah, this this clearly 1537 01:29:13.279 --> 01:29:16.119 says and it correctly points out this year. For example, 1538 01:29:16.159 --> 01:29:18.520 it says, it will be said to the Christians, what 1539 01:29:18.680 --> 01:29:21.159 did you used to worship? They will reply, we used 1540 01:29:21.199 --> 01:29:24.159 to worship Messiah, the son of our Law. It seems 1541 01:29:24.199 --> 01:29:25.880 to go into the right direction here where it comes 1542 01:29:25.920 --> 01:29:28.439 to Christians, but it makes an equivalence between them and 1543 01:29:28.560 --> 01:29:31.439 Jews and says that Jews will say, we used to 1544 01:29:31.520 --> 01:29:33.760 worship Asrall, as son of our Law. And if it 1545 01:29:33.920 --> 01:29:36.399 was just one Jew or just a few Jews here 1546 01:29:36.439 --> 01:29:41.439 and there, why would this make a generalize Jews. Yeah, exactly, exactly, 1547 01:29:42.079 --> 01:29:47.039 And this just shows how how there was really some 1548 01:29:47.199 --> 01:29:49.960 confusion going on. And I would say because of this, 1549 01:29:51.039 --> 01:29:55.159 just this verse in chapter nine, verse thirty is very 1550 01:29:55.319 --> 01:30:01.600 strong evidence the Quran is and ignorantly written or authored 1551 01:30:01.640 --> 01:30:04.479 book that it definitely does not come from a divine source. 1552 01:30:05.800 --> 01:30:18.399 Yeah exactly, Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. Another question is, uh, okay, 1553 01:30:20.800 --> 01:30:22.279 I was going to bring up sister of Aaron. Have 1554 01:30:22.359 --> 01:30:27.119 you heard of this, the argument about Mary in the Quran? Yeah, okay. 1555 01:30:27.319 --> 01:30:31.439 The Quran refers to Mary as mother Mary, mother of Jesus, 1556 01:30:31.720 --> 01:30:36.399 as a sister of Aaron, which is of course very 1557 01:30:36.439 --> 01:30:41.880 strange because yeah, mother Mary didn't have a brother named Aaron. 1558 01:30:42.319 --> 01:30:47.039 We do, however, have another character named Mary Miriam, also 1559 01:30:47.319 --> 01:30:53.920 known as Miriam in the Bible. Yeah, and that that 1560 01:30:54.039 --> 01:30:56.000 seems to be. That seems to be a big issue. 1561 01:30:56.920 --> 01:31:01.359 I'm trying to remember. Uh. The only response I've heard 1562 01:31:01.399 --> 01:31:05.520 to this is from when Shabi release says something like, oh, well, 1563 01:31:08.319 --> 01:31:11.279 this was a term they would use in general, like 1564 01:31:11.439 --> 01:31:15.159 sister could be any relative, anybody amongst the users, something 1565 01:31:15.239 --> 01:31:15.439 like that. 1566 01:31:15.640 --> 01:31:18.039 Right, sure, sure, Yeah, for some reason, we never heard 1567 01:31:18.079 --> 01:31:19.479 of that until Muslims came up with that. 1568 01:31:19.960 --> 01:31:23.720 Yeah. And also I thought the crime made everything really 1569 01:31:23.800 --> 01:31:27.880 clear exactly why is this so ambiguous here? And this 1570 01:31:28.359 --> 01:31:31.520 was obviously a very basic mistake. And if I remember that, 1571 01:31:31.680 --> 01:31:34.239 this is one of the ones that so Gabriel Site 1572 01:31:34.279 --> 01:31:37.119 Reynolds's book, which is really good, he lists about ten 1573 01:31:37.199 --> 01:31:40.159 of these problems, and this is one of the problems 1574 01:31:40.199 --> 01:31:43.960 he lists. And what's funny is that the scholarship right 1575 01:31:44.119 --> 01:31:48.119 is pretty like unanimous that this is an obvious mistake. 1576 01:31:49.279 --> 01:31:52.159 The Muslims themselves had to try to grapple with us 1577 01:31:52.239 --> 01:31:56.720 and offer these various explanations. So to me, that suggests again, 1578 01:31:56.880 --> 01:31:58.800 like the Ezra texts, no, this is a mistake. 1579 01:31:58.960 --> 01:32:03.760 This is not a like you know, there is more 1580 01:32:03.800 --> 01:32:07.119 than that really complicates this issue and just points at 1581 01:32:07.399 --> 01:32:11.640 a clear mistake. For example, the fact that in chapter 1582 01:32:11.760 --> 01:32:16.159 three it describes a character named Imran who is also 1583 01:32:16.239 --> 01:32:20.079 the father of mother Mary. And it further says here 1584 01:32:20.119 --> 01:32:23.359 in chapter sixty six, verse twelve, for example, and Mary 1585 01:32:23.560 --> 01:32:27.760 the daughter of Imran, who guarded her chastity. We blew 1586 01:32:27.880 --> 01:32:31.000 into her through our angel, and she believed in the 1587 01:32:31.039 --> 01:32:34.039 words of her Lord in his scriptures. So Mary, daughter 1588 01:32:34.199 --> 01:32:39.720 of Imran and Imran happens to sound oddly similar to Amram, 1589 01:32:40.039 --> 01:32:43.640 who is in the Bible the father of Moses, Miriam, 1590 01:32:43.840 --> 01:32:47.479 and Aaron. So it must it must be a huge 1591 01:32:47.760 --> 01:32:51.760 coincidence that the Quran refers to Mother Mary as both 1592 01:32:51.920 --> 01:32:56.760 sister of Aaron and daughter of Imran. All of it 1593 01:32:56.960 --> 01:33:00.640 was just used as some weird you know, yeah. 1594 01:33:00.439 --> 01:33:03.720 And and and the sixty six text here has to 1595 01:33:03.840 --> 01:33:06.439 be Mary because it's talking about virgin birth. 1596 01:33:07.039 --> 01:33:10.560 Yeah, yeah, Mary, right. There's also no doubt about that 1597 01:33:10.600 --> 01:33:13.399 if you go into chapter three of the Quran, which 1598 01:33:13.640 --> 01:33:18.479 uh directly it is called Imran or Ali Imran, which 1599 01:33:18.560 --> 01:33:23.800 is the family of Imran. And it describes here how 1600 01:33:25.159 --> 01:33:28.039 how Imron and his wife had a daughter and that 1601 01:33:28.279 --> 01:33:30.760 and that was Mary, and Mary then gives birth to Jesus. 1602 01:33:31.359 --> 01:33:33.640 So that's what it describes. And and why in the 1603 01:33:33.720 --> 01:33:37.000 world where did Imron come from? How in the world 1604 01:33:37.159 --> 01:33:39.680 does it happen that Imron sounds like Amram and it 1605 01:33:39.760 --> 01:33:41.359 is assumed to be the Arabic of Amram. 1606 01:33:43.399 --> 01:33:46.840 That's the great point. I didn't notice this Imron point there. Yeah, 1607 01:33:47.079 --> 01:33:49.279 this is a Reynolds might mention that I just forgot. 1608 01:33:49.680 --> 01:33:52.000 Yeah, it's a very very strong argument against us. Yeah, 1609 01:33:52.760 --> 01:33:55.880 where it's they are a little bit dumb found that 1610 01:33:55.920 --> 01:33:57.079 when they try to defend. 1611 01:33:56.800 --> 01:34:00.359 It, well, you know, and to be again, just back 1612 01:34:00.439 --> 01:34:04.239 that point up, like if you're a Christian or a Jew, 1613 01:34:04.479 --> 01:34:07.520 and you know the history of these texts, particularly with 1614 01:34:07.960 --> 01:34:10.920 the Torah and the history of Moses' family, and if 1615 01:34:10.960 --> 01:34:12.960 you're a Christian, you know the Gospel of Luke, like, 1616 01:34:14.479 --> 01:34:18.119 you wouldn't make this mistake, right, you wouldn't speak this way. 1617 01:34:18.439 --> 01:34:21.239 But that's just another attestation to the fact that the 1618 01:34:21.319 --> 01:34:24.640 Koran is actually just mixing up what's in the prior 1619 01:34:24.720 --> 01:34:26.960 revelation exactly exactly. 1620 01:34:29.000 --> 01:34:33.520 Two final questions. One would be, what do you think 1621 01:34:33.560 --> 01:34:36.359 about the fact that the Christians corrupted the Bible by 1622 01:34:36.399 --> 01:34:38.600 removing the Book of Council of Nicea from. 1623 01:34:38.479 --> 01:34:43.840 It, the Book of Council of Nicia. Well, that's funny 1624 01:34:43.880 --> 01:34:46.119 because that, you know, it is so three twenty five 1625 01:34:46.199 --> 01:34:49.319 AD is pretty late, because we would say that all 1626 01:34:49.399 --> 01:34:52.159 the New Testament texts were pretty much completed by the 1627 01:34:52.239 --> 01:34:54.359 death of John, which is around you know, the year 1628 01:34:54.359 --> 01:34:57.840 one hundred or so, So there wouldn't be any new 1629 01:34:58.520 --> 01:35:04.439 texts after that time, at least what becomes the New Testament, 1630 01:35:05.439 --> 01:35:07.520 even though we don't have the actual what are called 1631 01:35:07.520 --> 01:35:11.680 autograph of the original things that Paul wrote. Just like Jews, 1632 01:35:11.800 --> 01:35:14.880 Christians believe in tradition, so we believe in an oral tradition. 1633 01:35:15.000 --> 01:35:17.279 We believe in a written tradition, even outside of what 1634 01:35:17.439 --> 01:35:21.680 we call the texts, and so there were there was 1635 01:35:21.840 --> 01:35:26.560 no new Gospels or anything that would be added post 1636 01:35:26.720 --> 01:35:29.039 death of the Apostles. For us, that's the deposit of 1637 01:35:29.079 --> 01:35:31.680 the faith. It's complete when the Apostles died, Jude says, 1638 01:35:32.279 --> 01:35:34.880 contend for the faith once we're all delivered to the saints. 1639 01:35:34.960 --> 01:35:37.359 That means there's a completed body of doctrines that's not 1640 01:35:37.640 --> 01:35:41.479 just written, it's also oral amongst the apostles. That for 1641 01:35:41.600 --> 01:35:45.039 us is the Apostolic faith, the upsolde deposit. So I 1642 01:35:45.079 --> 01:35:49.720 don't know what that's even referring to. Is this something 1643 01:35:49.800 --> 01:35:52.119 that is in a Hudeeth or something like this? 1644 01:35:52.239 --> 01:35:54.119 Is this is something that is even better than how 1645 01:35:54.159 --> 01:35:55.359 do youth and Kuran? This is what's what? 1646 01:35:55.680 --> 01:35:55.800 Uh? 1647 01:35:56.439 --> 01:36:02.840 The great scholar Sneako recently several several months ago when 1648 01:36:02.880 --> 01:36:05.720 he was discussing with a Christian and she was citing 1649 01:36:05.840 --> 01:36:09.119 the book matt which he didn't know what it refers to. 1650 01:36:10.520 --> 01:36:12.439 We have the original manuscripts from the Bible. 1651 01:36:15.279 --> 01:36:20.319 Have you heard of the Council of Nicea. There's been 1652 01:36:20.359 --> 01:36:21.960 a lot of chapters that have been removed, and the 1653 01:36:22.039 --> 01:36:24.199 Bible has been tampered and manipulated with a lot over 1654 01:36:24.239 --> 01:36:24.600 the years. 1655 01:36:24.680 --> 01:36:26.720 And you could argue about specific people who might have 1656 01:36:26.760 --> 01:36:29.720 tampered with it. But it's definitely been changed. 1657 01:36:30.880 --> 01:36:33.520 I mean you could say that, but still the original 1658 01:36:34.600 --> 01:36:36.000 the original things are still there. 1659 01:36:36.479 --> 01:36:41.479 So most people haven't read the original version, you know, 1660 01:36:41.600 --> 01:36:44.159 like most of the factions of Christianity, the different ones 1661 01:36:44.159 --> 01:36:46.159 they go off of the manipulator versions. That's why there's 1662 01:36:46.159 --> 01:36:48.479 so many different sets of Christianity and there's only pretty 1663 01:36:48.520 --> 01:36:49.880 much one. Like you're either and most of them you're not. 1664 01:36:50.079 --> 01:36:52.760 Islam is very consistent, like I know, there's small things 1665 01:36:52.800 --> 01:36:55.840 like Sony and Hia, but overall it's just either small things. 1666 01:36:55.680 --> 01:36:58.039 Yeah, small things, it's very very small things. 1667 01:36:58.079 --> 01:36:58.319 Okay. 1668 01:37:00.159 --> 01:37:01.199 The Bible is pretty simple too. 1669 01:37:01.239 --> 01:37:03.520 You just gotta keep the commandments and follow Christ. 1670 01:37:03.720 --> 01:37:05.600 Depends on the version of the Bible you're talking about. 1671 01:37:06.479 --> 01:37:08.920 What other versions of the Bible are. There's so many, 1672 01:37:08.960 --> 01:37:12.359 bro Okay, tell me some. Okay, let's look up versions 1673 01:37:12.359 --> 01:37:15.720 of the Bible. We have the King James version, the 1674 01:37:15.800 --> 01:37:18.039 English Standard version, the translation. 1675 01:37:19.079 --> 01:37:21.520 You know, you know, but there's so many different translations. Man. 1676 01:37:21.600 --> 01:37:24.079 So the funny thing about all those different versions, but 1677 01:37:24.960 --> 01:37:26.880 they're all just different translations, buddy. 1678 01:37:30.359 --> 01:37:31.960 So which one, which one do you know is short? 1679 01:37:32.279 --> 01:37:33.479 Is the one to go by? 1680 01:37:34.880 --> 01:37:37.319 The version? 1681 01:37:38.239 --> 01:37:41.399 That's interesting. We have to sell international version, pick twelve 1682 01:37:41.479 --> 01:37:44.359 version as up to same version, the Harlem version and 1683 01:37:44.399 --> 01:37:46.239 so on were in. 1684 01:37:46.359 --> 01:37:49.199 Those parts of the Bible Council of Nice. 1685 01:37:50.760 --> 01:37:51.199 Tampered. 1686 01:37:51.399 --> 01:37:53.119 But it's just it's just a retranslation. 1687 01:37:53.199 --> 01:37:54.119 That doesn't mean tampered. 1688 01:37:55.119 --> 01:37:57.239 It's been translated seven hundred and twenty four languages. Well, 1689 01:37:57.239 --> 01:37:59.640 they did remove the Council of Nicea from the original 1690 01:37:59.680 --> 01:38:00.600 Bible a lot. 1691 01:38:04.640 --> 01:38:06.199 Okay, Yeah, this is a new one to me. I 1692 01:38:06.399 --> 01:38:10.359 like this, this is the Sneako challenge. Why did they 1693 01:38:10.520 --> 01:38:14.399 remove the Council of Nicea from the original Bible? Yeah, 1694 01:38:14.399 --> 01:38:17.479 I noticed earlier. So he's actually mixed up, which which 1695 01:38:17.560 --> 01:38:20.039 is usually like a Baptist seven day Adventist argument. They 1696 01:38:20.079 --> 01:38:22.640 always say, oh, the Council of Nicea happened, and they 1697 01:38:22.760 --> 01:38:25.279 tampered with the books and they changed everything, and it's 1698 01:38:25.319 --> 01:38:28.640 all this new stuff. Also, Joe's witnesses use that argument 1699 01:38:28.680 --> 01:38:31.159 too to try to say that Trinity was invented by Nicia. 1700 01:38:31.239 --> 01:38:33.920 So he's actually jumbled up what is a like a 1701 01:38:34.000 --> 01:38:40.159 Protestant even aryan argument. And then it turns into no, 1702 01:38:40.279 --> 01:38:42.319 there was this Council of Nicea that was part of 1703 01:38:42.399 --> 01:38:46.279 the Bible. That was he's actually like doubled up his 1704 01:38:47.560 --> 01:38:48.720 mistaken understanding. 1705 01:38:49.239 --> 01:38:53.359 Yeah, he heard the standard narrative that's some people falsely 1706 01:38:53.399 --> 01:38:55.880 present about the Council of Nicea, and then he totally 1707 01:38:55.920 --> 01:38:57.840 misunderstood it and he goes on. 1708 01:38:58.000 --> 01:39:00.000 You're saying there's a chapter, there's a book called the Council, 1709 01:39:00.039 --> 01:39:00.600 than I fear. 1710 01:39:01.640 --> 01:39:04.520 Yeah, it's not. There's not no book called the con 1711 01:39:05.600 --> 01:39:07.640 it's it's not a whole book, but it's. 1712 01:39:09.800 --> 01:39:12.960 They have books like they had a counsel, they have 1713 01:39:13.079 --> 01:39:17.039 the Apocrypher. I have an Apocrypheruh, you have a book 1714 01:39:17.039 --> 01:39:19.439 of knock Yeah, the so yeah. 1715 01:39:19.479 --> 01:39:21.720 This was Stego's brilliant moment here where he pointed out 1716 01:39:21.840 --> 01:39:23.880 that they removed the Book of Counsel of Nicia. 1717 01:39:24.600 --> 01:39:28.560 And I think, I guess I'm going to become a 1718 01:39:28.640 --> 01:39:29.920 muzzle now, because. 1719 01:39:32.000 --> 01:39:34.640 The thing is, I wouldn't want to pick on somebody 1720 01:39:34.640 --> 01:39:36.640 who doesn't know what the Council of thea is or 1721 01:39:36.640 --> 01:39:39.319 who makes these this suggestion, you know, in a regular discussion. 1722 01:39:39.359 --> 01:39:42.159 But when when you go on there and you go online, 1723 01:39:42.159 --> 01:39:45.319 you have a massive audience and you try to assert 1724 01:39:45.399 --> 01:39:47.800 that Christianity is false and Islam as true. And one 1725 01:39:47.840 --> 01:39:50.560 of the reasons why is that there was this Book 1726 01:39:50.600 --> 01:39:52.760 of Counsel of Nicia which they removed from the Bible. 1727 01:39:52.800 --> 01:39:54.880 Then sorry, but what what is't that? 1728 01:39:56.119 --> 01:39:57.840 Yeah? There was another excellent I don't know if you 1729 01:39:57.840 --> 01:40:02.319 saw a Snico's argument about prayer beads. Uh, well, he said, 1730 01:40:02.399 --> 01:40:07.880 he said he noticed that Buddhists use prayer beads and 1731 01:40:08.079 --> 01:40:11.680 Muslims have these prayer beads, and so he says, so 1732 01:40:11.760 --> 01:40:14.319 we're worshiping the same God because we're all using the 1733 01:40:14.399 --> 01:40:18.039 same beads. I'm being serious. I thought that was one 1734 01:40:18.039 --> 01:40:24.439 of my favorite sneako apologetic arguments. So I'm not joking. 1735 01:40:25.319 --> 01:40:31.359 I thought that was a good argument. Also, so a 1736 01:40:31.439 --> 01:40:33.600 bunch of Satanists or you know, like if a Satanist 1737 01:40:33.680 --> 01:40:38.359 worships one God, then we're all worshiping one God. We're 1738 01:40:38.399 --> 01:40:39.960 all wors to the same God because it's one God. 1739 01:40:41.159 --> 01:40:43.439 I I recently looked up the history of prayer beads 1740 01:40:43.560 --> 01:40:47.119 to figure out when Muslims adopted it and who came 1741 01:40:47.199 --> 01:40:51.880 up with it first. The first prayer beads are so old, 1742 01:40:52.800 --> 01:40:55.960 and Muslims simply adopted it, most likely from from from 1743 01:40:56.079 --> 01:41:00.720 Christians and then started using him it's not even the 1744 01:41:01.239 --> 01:41:04.680 it's it wasn't even a thing in early in early Islam. Yeah, 1745 01:41:04.800 --> 01:41:07.359 so what a stupid argument. 1746 01:41:11.399 --> 01:41:13.239 I don't know if you noticed, but he had another 1747 01:41:13.439 --> 01:41:17.159 sort of flop the other day where he put up 1748 01:41:17.159 --> 01:41:21.600 an argument that Jesus was a Unitarian because he cited 1749 01:41:21.800 --> 01:41:25.199 Deuteronomy as the greatest commandment, loved the lords your God. 1750 01:41:26.079 --> 01:41:28.319 And then I give him a bunch of other texts 1751 01:41:28.720 --> 01:41:31.119 where I said, yeah, but you understand that that's admitting 1752 01:41:31.520 --> 01:41:35.319 our position, because in the Gospel of Mark, Jesus affirms 1753 01:41:35.359 --> 01:41:38.439 his own deity by saying that he can forgive sins, 1754 01:41:38.479 --> 01:41:40.039 that he's the Lord of the Sabbath, that he will 1755 01:41:40.079 --> 01:41:43.760 come in glory on the in the second coming. And 1756 01:41:43.840 --> 01:41:45.560 he ended up taking it down. So he had so 1757 01:41:45.680 --> 01:41:50.159 many In other words, he's just a funny character because 1758 01:41:50.359 --> 01:41:53.560 you know, he constantly puts up these really bad arguments 1759 01:41:53.600 --> 01:41:56.159 and goofy things, and then he'll end up taking them. 1760 01:41:56.079 --> 01:41:58.159 Down and why why would you do this? There there 1761 01:41:58.199 --> 01:42:02.239 are some they have been assertions that he was paid 1762 01:42:02.319 --> 01:42:05.600 some high sums of money for to convert and publicly 1763 01:42:05.680 --> 01:42:07.479 declare that he's a Muslim and to do this kind 1764 01:42:07.479 --> 01:42:09.279 of stuff. I can't say that that is that is 1765 01:42:09.439 --> 01:42:12.439 that is absolutely true, But it doesn't make sense that 1766 01:42:13.760 --> 01:42:17.760 that somebody with such a great lack of knowledge on 1767 01:42:17.960 --> 01:42:24.039 basic things would convert to Islam and then start immediately 1768 01:42:24.239 --> 01:42:26.600 talking about it as if he knew what he's talking about, 1769 01:42:27.079 --> 01:42:30.560 and then attempting to refute the Bible when he doesn't 1770 01:42:30.600 --> 01:42:33.520 even know what Matt refers to and what the Council 1771 01:42:33.520 --> 01:42:37.920 of Nicia actually is, thinking that it's a book, it's 1772 01:42:38.039 --> 01:42:41.720 it's just it's so silly. And this is what really 1773 01:42:41.760 --> 01:42:42.399 gets get. 1774 01:42:42.960 --> 01:42:46.279 I remember right around the time, and again, this is 1775 01:42:46.359 --> 01:42:49.000 just what was reported to be true, allegedly. I don't 1776 01:42:49.000 --> 01:42:50.199 know if it is actually true, but there was a 1777 01:42:50.279 --> 01:42:52.680 story that you know, Tate went and ate with and 1778 01:42:52.760 --> 01:42:57.319 had dinner with Saudi royals and then suspicious, oh suddenly 1779 01:42:57.399 --> 01:43:02.520 after that, there's this gigantic push online for Islam. I've 1780 01:43:02.560 --> 01:43:05.880 always assumed, or it's been my thesis that I think 1781 01:43:05.960 --> 01:43:09.880 probably the Saudis are in some way pushing Islam through 1782 01:43:09.920 --> 01:43:12.000 the Internet, through the West, through these people that we're 1783 01:43:12.000 --> 01:43:12.560 talking about. 1784 01:43:12.960 --> 01:43:16.359 Yeah. Yeah. There was also a clip where when Tristan 1785 01:43:16.479 --> 01:43:21.000 Tate had an interview. I failed to remember who it was. 1786 01:43:21.079 --> 01:43:23.159 I think it might have been on Patrick bet David, 1787 01:43:23.199 --> 01:43:26.159 but when he was talking to him, Tristan mentioned something 1788 01:43:26.279 --> 01:43:31.880 very briefly about Islam. He said that he had been 1789 01:43:32.640 --> 01:43:36.119 offered benefits and a lot of things, you know, in 1790 01:43:36.199 --> 01:43:39.640 the Middle East for converting to Islam. But he said, 1791 01:43:39.680 --> 01:43:41.520 but of course I didn't accept it because I know 1792 01:43:41.920 --> 01:43:44.199 it wouldn't be genuine of me to accept such a 1793 01:43:44.279 --> 01:43:46.439 thing and to convert to Islam for that. But then 1794 01:43:46.479 --> 01:43:49.319 of course the question that horizis is what about your brother? 1795 01:43:49.560 --> 01:43:52.439 Yeah? Well yeah, so. 1796 01:43:54.039 --> 01:43:56.239 They're not very smart. So it's kind of looks like 1797 01:43:56.319 --> 01:43:59.479 he's telling on his brother without realizing it in that moment. 1798 01:44:00.159 --> 01:44:03.399 But this is all just speculation. We don't know. We 1799 01:44:03.720 --> 01:44:07.479 don't know anyway. Just the final thing that I have 1800 01:44:07.880 --> 01:44:10.840 for you, and I want to actually organize another conversation 1801 01:44:10.920 --> 01:44:15.000 with you to specifically talk about Christianity and what to 1802 01:44:15.079 --> 01:44:19.439 believe and all that. But my final question, just to 1803 01:44:19.520 --> 01:44:22.399 finalize this is why are you Christian? 1804 01:44:24.800 --> 01:44:28.079 I'm not today. I've had to renounce all that and 1805 01:44:28.159 --> 01:44:32.800 become a Muslim because of the powerful Padis and sneak 1806 01:44:32.840 --> 01:44:37.119 o argumentation that's been given. So you actually, I thought 1807 01:44:37.119 --> 01:44:39.159 your channel was against Islam, and you hear you are 1808 01:44:39.239 --> 01:44:41.479 converting me out of Christianity. 1809 01:44:41.600 --> 01:44:43.399 So it's because I'm being paid by. 1810 01:44:44.520 --> 01:44:47.720 You, were being paid to actually be a Muslim show. 1811 01:44:47.840 --> 01:44:52.000 Wow, exactly exactly. But but if we are to make 1812 01:44:52.079 --> 01:44:56.800 it serious I don't know if you even can can 1813 01:44:56.960 --> 01:44:59.039 answer this or if we should do this for the 1814 01:44:59.119 --> 01:45:01.039 next time. But if you words to tell me in 1815 01:45:02.039 --> 01:45:05.640 within like one minute, in one minute, why I should 1816 01:45:06.079 --> 01:45:06.840 be a Christian? 1817 01:45:06.920 --> 01:45:12.600 For example, well you asked why I am? I mean 1818 01:45:12.720 --> 01:45:15.840 in my own life. There's a personal, sort of subjective 1819 01:45:15.920 --> 01:45:18.279 side to this, to where you know, I believe that 1820 01:45:18.439 --> 01:45:21.760 throughout my life my many prayers have been answered. I 1821 01:45:21.840 --> 01:45:25.720 do believe that God has blessed me, has has given 1822 01:45:25.760 --> 01:45:30.239 me all the the things that I need. He's been 1823 01:45:30.479 --> 01:45:35.159 a loving deity to me. So those are the personal 1824 01:45:35.239 --> 01:45:38.399 subjective reasons. That's not the only reasons. I think in 1825 01:45:38.520 --> 01:45:42.960 terms of like apologetics and public public reasonings and proofs, 1826 01:45:43.039 --> 01:45:46.159 I think that the dozens and dozens and dozens, there's 1827 01:45:46.199 --> 01:45:49.319 not just five or six like most evangelicals think. There's 1828 01:45:49.399 --> 01:45:52.640 dozens and dozens of Messianic prophecies that are very precise. 1829 01:45:53.600 --> 01:45:56.000 I don't think those could have been faked or staged 1830 01:45:56.199 --> 01:46:00.840 or you know, made up afterwards. Those are very strong proofs. 1831 01:46:01.159 --> 01:46:04.119 Those were I think the strongest things that I always 1832 01:46:04.159 --> 01:46:08.199 found the most convincing about Christianity. There's philosophical argumentation that 1833 01:46:08.279 --> 01:46:10.800 I think is convincing. The transcendental argument is something I 1834 01:46:10.840 --> 01:46:14.520 always point to. So those are the main reasons why 1835 01:46:14.600 --> 01:46:17.000 I personally am am Christian, and to other people, I 1836 01:46:17.039 --> 01:46:19.720 would say, I think that it's true. So you know, 1837 01:46:19.800 --> 01:46:24.119 if you want to find a basis for, for example, 1838 01:46:24.199 --> 01:46:27.680 in the philosophical sense, the things that we rely on 1839 01:46:27.920 --> 01:46:31.119 to do science, to do logic, to do you know, calculations, 1840 01:46:31.159 --> 01:46:36.520 all that we use, principles that can't be reduced to matter. 1841 01:46:36.760 --> 01:46:40.479 There are immaterial things, there's universals, there's laws of logic. 1842 01:46:41.000 --> 01:46:43.239 Those things I think make the most sense. They're most 1843 01:46:43.319 --> 01:46:46.600 coherent in a worldview where you have a personal deity, 1844 01:46:46.960 --> 01:46:48.800 and I think that that points us in the direction 1845 01:46:48.880 --> 01:46:50.920 of Christianity. There's a lot of other arguments that kind 1846 01:46:50.920 --> 01:46:52.560 of go along with that. Maybe we'll talk about that 1847 01:46:52.600 --> 01:46:54.800 next time. But those are some of the reasons why 1848 01:46:55.239 --> 01:46:57.159 I'm a Christian, why I think other people should. 1849 01:46:56.960 --> 01:46:59.640 Be very nice. Thank you. I want to invite you 1850 01:46:59.680 --> 01:47:04.680 again another time to have a conversation about Christianity, about 1851 01:47:04.720 --> 01:47:06.960 God that I would be personally very very interested in. 1852 01:47:08.319 --> 01:47:10.800 Are you cool with going through super chets here? We 1853 01:47:10.880 --> 01:47:18.000 have about twenty of them. Our s okay, shake Mike Wingling, says, Jaye, dummy. 1854 01:47:18.119 --> 01:47:20.800 The guy that thinks one plus one plus twenty plus 1855 01:47:20.880 --> 01:47:24.399 three this is true doesn't know Arabic and thinks the 1856 01:47:24.479 --> 01:47:29.760 CIA wrote the time one instead of Masade. No thanks, 1857 01:47:29.800 --> 01:47:31.600 I'll take my tifts here from for Reid. 1858 01:47:32.960 --> 01:47:37.239 Well, you know, it's like I always point out, all right, 1859 01:47:37.239 --> 01:47:38.960 I mean I think that guy's kidding obviously, but. 1860 01:47:39.199 --> 01:47:40.159 Like, yeah, yeah, it's true. 1861 01:47:40.399 --> 01:47:43.319 So here these are So people think, oh, you can't 1862 01:47:43.359 --> 01:47:45.880 have something that's one and three. Are you sure about that? 1863 01:47:46.079 --> 01:47:48.880 Because I could give you three examples. One times one 1864 01:47:48.920 --> 01:47:51.600 times one Is that equal three? I wrote that wrong. 1865 01:47:51.640 --> 01:47:55.920 It's supposed to be one one. Excuse me, one to 1866 01:47:56.000 --> 01:47:56.680 the third power? 1867 01:47:57.119 --> 01:47:57.880 Is all right? 1868 01:47:57.920 --> 01:48:00.640 So these are all like examples of what like, this 1869 01:48:00.840 --> 01:48:04.000 is one thing, but it's also three things. Right, this 1870 01:48:04.199 --> 01:48:06.199 is one, but it's also raised to the third power. 1871 01:48:06.319 --> 01:48:09.399 It's still one. Right, This is one time one times one, 1872 01:48:09.439 --> 01:48:12.840 and that's still one. So it's actually pretty obvious that 1873 01:48:13.000 --> 01:48:15.560 even in the created realm, something can be one and 1874 01:48:15.800 --> 01:48:18.600 many at the same time and it doesn't involve a contradiction. 1875 01:48:19.279 --> 01:48:21.800 And so why would we think that necessarily there's a 1876 01:48:21.880 --> 01:48:24.640 contradiction between God being both one. 1877 01:48:24.600 --> 01:48:28.239 And many, but this is a perfect opportunity for Muslims. 1878 01:48:29.840 --> 01:48:34.520 Just take this clip from before Jake made the correction, and. 1879 01:48:34.600 --> 01:48:41.039 Then right, it's still bad that we got him Jay 1880 01:48:41.720 --> 01:48:44.800 refute exposed to unity by actually the. 1881 01:48:46.640 --> 01:48:49.439 Shake. Yeah, Dick, which sounds like a very interesting name, 1882 01:48:49.520 --> 01:48:53.119 said j D. Would asking if God is all powerful 1883 01:48:53.199 --> 01:48:55.960 be a good argument against God not able to become flesh. 1884 01:48:58.680 --> 01:49:01.560 This is a little more complex because I think what 1885 01:49:01.760 --> 01:49:05.039 we mean by all powerful will be limited and dictated 1886 01:49:05.119 --> 01:49:08.359 by the worldview or the theology that we have. So, 1887 01:49:08.479 --> 01:49:11.640 for example, attempts atheists say stuff like, oh, if God's 1888 01:49:11.640 --> 01:49:14.640 all powerful powerful, could he make himself not exist? And 1889 01:49:14.720 --> 01:49:17.880 we would say no, because that's not what if God 1890 01:49:18.000 --> 01:49:21.960 exists all powerful means. So it's going to be limited 1891 01:49:22.159 --> 01:49:26.319 and conditioned by the being who is the ground and 1892 01:49:26.359 --> 01:49:31.840 the ultimate authority in that worldview. So what's possible for 1893 01:49:31.920 --> 01:49:33.600 God and not possible for God is going to be 1894 01:49:33.640 --> 01:49:35.960 determined by what kind of God you believe in. And 1895 01:49:36.039 --> 01:49:40.239 in the Christian scheme, there's nothing inherently impossible for the 1896 01:49:40.319 --> 01:49:42.439 second person, the God at entering the de time and space. 1897 01:49:43.479 --> 01:49:45.079 So I don't know if I would immediately go with 1898 01:49:45.159 --> 01:49:45.680 that route. 1899 01:49:46.760 --> 01:49:52.760 M Yeah. One problem that recently arose on Twitter was 1900 01:49:52.960 --> 01:49:59.439 that God necessarily cannot eat a sandwich, therefore Christianity is 1901 01:49:59.520 --> 01:50:01.520 false something like that. 1902 01:50:02.000 --> 01:50:04.319 What if God has a human nature that's full of 1903 01:50:04.439 --> 01:50:06.199 human why couldn't he eat a sandwich? 1904 01:50:10.399 --> 01:50:13.800 Eternal Vigilance says, thank you both for all you dude, 1905 01:50:13.840 --> 01:50:16.399 God bless you. Thank you so much. Eternal Vigilant appreciate 1906 01:50:16.439 --> 01:50:19.760 it very much. Snugwig a CP showed about a loss 1907 01:50:20.399 --> 01:50:27.119 sat on a rooster. Yeah, that's that's what I would 1908 01:50:27.119 --> 01:50:29.479 do if I was all Stefan. The pelta said, example 1909 01:50:29.520 --> 01:50:33.279 of Arabic eloquence, Mischkat and Massabi three fifteen. What are 1910 01:50:33.319 --> 01:50:40.560 you talking about? Let's see Missabi three fifteen. Come on, 1911 01:50:40.640 --> 01:50:45.600 I already did it, man, I already did it. Muawia 1912 01:50:47.079 --> 01:50:49.279 reported the prophet as saying, the eyes are the leather 1913 01:50:49.319 --> 01:50:52.119 strap of the anus, and when the eye leaps, the 1914 01:50:52.239 --> 01:50:56.439 leather strap is lucent. So this is an example of 1915 01:50:56.520 --> 01:51:02.720 the eloquence of Arabic and the great insights that Muhammad had. Uh. 1916 01:51:02.880 --> 01:51:05.640 There is a lot of philosophical stuff here that you 1917 01:51:05.720 --> 01:51:06.560 can probably. 1918 01:51:06.319 --> 01:51:10.000 Dig into deep esoteric wisdom, very very deep. 1919 01:51:10.079 --> 01:51:14.319 Yeah, Uh, Jesus is at the throne Muhammed is in 1920 01:51:14.439 --> 01:51:17.039 hell based. I want to please clip you. 1921 01:51:17.159 --> 01:51:19.239 It is totally based, Okay. 1922 01:51:21.399 --> 01:51:25.800 Joel Evers? Is that retro David oh Hi sport? It 1923 01:51:25.960 --> 01:51:30.359 is actually yeah, uh, iron kipper considering to turn the 1924 01:51:30.760 --> 01:51:33.720 considering to turn the Quran into bunny litter every time 1925 01:51:33.800 --> 01:51:37.760 there is a gin attack and upload a video of 1926 01:51:37.880 --> 01:51:40.079 my rabbit poop on it. I see, that's that's a 1927 01:51:40.079 --> 01:51:45.640 good idea, shake head, except Moslim? What is makes a girl? 1928 01:51:45.760 --> 01:51:49.119 Hawk tool and noise? Christian? Not sure most of them. 1929 01:51:49.199 --> 01:51:51.680 You see, you know absolutely nothing about child marriage. 1930 01:51:55.239 --> 01:51:57.760 I like that. That is funny because in a lot 1931 01:51:57.800 --> 01:52:00.840 of debates, when it starts to get a little heated 1932 01:52:00.880 --> 01:52:05.760 for the Muslim suddenly it turns into Arab phrases, Arabic phrases, 1933 01:52:05.880 --> 01:52:08.039 and if you don't know them, then they've won the debate. 1934 01:52:09.199 --> 01:52:12.079 It is the religion for the whole world. But suddenly 1935 01:52:12.199 --> 01:52:14.960 now it's just like you have to have perfect Arabic 1936 01:52:15.039 --> 01:52:17.039 pronunciation or else you don't know anything. 1937 01:52:18.319 --> 01:52:20.399 It is a it is a perfect move. It's a 1938 01:52:20.399 --> 01:52:24.520 perfect strategy. Actually, the attributes of God. I clipped this 1939 01:52:24.800 --> 01:52:27.479 from when Mohamed a Job talked to Jordan Peterson. It 1940 01:52:27.600 --> 01:52:28.479 was a perfect moment. 1941 01:52:28.800 --> 01:52:31.880 The attributes of God, how are they knowable? Is that 1942 01:52:32.039 --> 01:52:34.439 only through relationship with the with the book? 1943 01:52:34.640 --> 01:52:37.279 Does that also have an experiential element as far as. 1944 01:52:40.239 --> 01:52:40.479 You know? 1945 01:52:48.840 --> 01:52:56.239 So why why do that? 1946 01:52:56.800 --> 01:52:57.399 To my question? 1947 01:52:57.560 --> 01:52:58.119 In that manner? 1948 01:52:58.560 --> 01:52:59.279 I don't do that? 1949 01:52:59.520 --> 01:53:03.560 Thangod, this is a great club. I'm glad you played that. 1950 01:53:03.600 --> 01:53:04.359 I've forgotten about that. 1951 01:53:04.560 --> 01:53:06.600 That's how do you know when that's appropriate and when 1952 01:53:06.640 --> 01:53:06.920 it's not? 1953 01:53:10.960 --> 01:53:13.479 Ill this is one of the funniest dreams I've been 1954 01:53:13.560 --> 01:53:16.199 on a long time until I forgot about that club 1955 01:53:16.239 --> 01:53:18.600 and I forgot George Pierce and reactions like why'd you 1956 01:53:18.680 --> 01:53:18.920 do that? 1957 01:53:20.880 --> 01:53:28.680 I don't understand the language? Oh man l two A. 1958 01:53:28.880 --> 01:53:31.039 What do Jews and Muslims think about Genesis when it 1959 01:53:31.079 --> 01:53:35.119 says let us make men in our image? Who is us? 1960 01:53:35.239 --> 01:53:35.880 Who is our? 1961 01:53:36.760 --> 01:53:38.960 I can tell you that Jews have a long historic 1962 01:53:39.079 --> 01:53:42.119 debate on what the passage means. I don't know at 1963 01:53:42.159 --> 01:53:45.159 all what Muslims would say. Perhaps they would say, oh, 1964 01:53:45.199 --> 01:53:47.760 it's like the Quran, the Royal Wei, this is the angels? 1965 01:53:47.840 --> 01:53:49.119 Is that is that what they would say? 1966 01:53:50.039 --> 01:53:51.760 Yeah, they would they would say, it's the it's the 1967 01:53:53.600 --> 01:53:56.880 plural of majesty and i'll o refers to him itself 1968 01:53:56.920 --> 01:53:59.399 as we as in the Kuran as well. But then 1969 01:53:59.439 --> 01:54:02.840 again you're talking about Genesis, they would say, we don't 1970 01:54:02.840 --> 01:54:07.560 know if it's authentic or not. It's been corrupted. Corrupted Yeshwa, 1971 01:54:07.640 --> 01:54:10.319 the king said, Bible's main focus is redemption. In following 1972 01:54:10.479 --> 01:54:12.880 yeahwe Yeshua. So why do we have to explain theology 1973 01:54:12.920 --> 01:54:15.199 trinity when God never focuses on expounding on them. 1974 01:54:16.600 --> 01:54:19.279 Well, but he does, in fact, I mean many passages 1975 01:54:19.479 --> 01:54:22.880 of the Gospels, and particularly say John five thor nine, 1976 01:54:23.199 --> 01:54:28.279 Jesus disputes with the Pharisees about who exactly was appearing 1977 01:54:28.319 --> 01:54:30.520 in the Old Testament. In fact, he even gives this 1978 01:54:30.640 --> 01:54:34.840 dispute the essence energy distinction argument we would say as Orthodox. 1979 01:54:34.920 --> 01:54:37.399 When he talks about to the Pharisees, no one sees 1980 01:54:37.439 --> 01:54:39.920 the Father at any time, and so therefore who was 1981 01:54:40.000 --> 01:54:44.239 Moses interacting with and talking to. That's proving and arguing 1982 01:54:44.359 --> 01:54:47.239 our position as Orthodox. I think if you get into 1983 01:54:47.319 --> 01:54:50.279 John fifteen sixteen seventeen, Jesus goes into a lot of 1984 01:54:50.359 --> 01:54:54.159 depth about the relationship between the Father himself and the Spirit, 1985 01:54:54.960 --> 01:54:58.399 the eternal relationship of the procession, and then his sending 1986 01:54:58.479 --> 01:55:00.560 of the Spirit into time and space. So, in fact, 1987 01:55:00.640 --> 01:55:03.640 the New Testament, just in those passages discussed as the 1988 01:55:03.720 --> 01:55:06.960 Trinity many times over, hebres one is a lengthy discourse 1989 01:55:07.000 --> 01:55:09.000 on the relationship with the Son to the Father, that 1990 01:55:09.119 --> 01:55:11.000 the Son is not a creature. So, I mean, these 1991 01:55:11.039 --> 01:55:13.600 are just two examples of where even the New Testament 1992 01:55:13.680 --> 01:55:16.239 is debating that. The history of the Church is very 1993 01:55:16.359 --> 01:55:19.319 much concerned with that, because our salvation in the Christ 1994 01:55:19.359 --> 01:55:21.840 of You is bound up with whether Jesus is the 1995 01:55:21.880 --> 01:55:23.560 Son of God or whether he's just a man. So 1996 01:55:24.039 --> 01:55:26.600 the Bible does talk about this, and the Church fathers 1997 01:55:26.600 --> 01:55:27.520 talk about it for a reason. 1998 01:55:28.439 --> 01:55:29.920 Nice, we're proud of that. 1999 01:55:32.600 --> 01:55:35.880 Eric, Eric, it's small compared to Hindu and Zoroastrian books. 2000 01:55:35.920 --> 01:55:40.520 Even that's true, that's true. The Koran is tiny. Lilai 2001 01:55:40.720 --> 01:55:46.279 Squeer says, I just thought of it when I said 2002 01:55:46.319 --> 01:55:48.439 the Koran is tiny. I don't know if you've seen 2003 01:55:51.000 --> 01:55:55.279 and Andrew Wilson's I knew that's where you're gonna go. Yeah, 2004 01:55:57.479 --> 01:55:59.840 randomly came into my mind when I just said tiny. 2005 01:56:00.720 --> 01:56:05.760 H whylight square. From an Islamic perspective, what's the problem 2006 01:56:05.800 --> 01:56:08.279 with God giving most or Jesus a book containing details 2007 01:56:08.359 --> 01:56:10.479 of their deaths, their profits. 2008 01:56:10.840 --> 01:56:16.159 After all, Well, I don't there's a problem. Well, you're 2009 01:56:16.159 --> 01:56:18.680 saying from the from the Islamic perspective. I think the 2010 01:56:18.760 --> 01:56:20.840 guys that I was talking to. His argument was that 2011 01:56:22.279 --> 01:56:25.840 it has to be like this. It's like Allah possesses 2012 01:56:25.920 --> 01:56:30.600 you and you spit out what is Torah? Yeah, therefore 2013 01:56:30.640 --> 01:56:33.840 you couldn't have the recounting of the death. So we 2014 01:56:33.920 --> 01:56:37.199 think Joshua added that or put that there or whatever. 2015 01:56:37.520 --> 01:56:40.399 So he's not a problem because we don't have the 2016 01:56:40.439 --> 01:56:43.600 same idea as to what I've noticed this too, And 2017 01:56:43.800 --> 01:56:45.359 I don't want to keep hold up your stream. But 2018 01:56:45.479 --> 01:56:49.800 like a lot of times, like Muslims think that everybody 2019 01:56:49.920 --> 01:56:53.800 in the Christian world has like this like dictatorial Protestant 2020 01:56:54.279 --> 01:56:58.640 interpretation of what techts are from God. Right, So it's 2021 01:56:58.680 --> 01:57:00.800 like they don't see it in the In our view, 2022 01:57:00.800 --> 01:57:03.720 it's just like the incarnation. There's a there's a synthesis 2023 01:57:03.760 --> 01:57:06.920 between the human author and what God intended to convey 2024 01:57:06.960 --> 01:57:07.800 in the divine revelation. 2025 01:57:08.760 --> 01:57:08.840 Uh. 2026 01:57:08.960 --> 01:57:10.960 And I think Muslims think of it like it's a 2027 01:57:11.119 --> 01:57:14.199 dictation from a lah, which is which actually is the 2028 01:57:14.279 --> 01:57:18.800 traditional Islamic position, so they think that our view is that. 2029 01:57:19.279 --> 01:57:21.279 And if you notice in the in the Daniel debate, 2030 01:57:21.399 --> 01:57:23.439 you know he was he kept arguing, like, where's your 2031 01:57:23.479 --> 01:57:27.640 original perfect text, And it's like, our position doesn't require 2032 01:57:27.720 --> 01:57:31.199 that we don't have the same idea of inscripturation as 2033 01:57:31.239 --> 01:57:34.800 you do. And he keeps foisting his his criteria, his 2034 01:57:34.920 --> 01:57:37.640 position on us. And I think that's that's a key 2035 01:57:37.720 --> 01:57:38.239 point they miss. 2036 01:57:39.079 --> 01:57:43.560 Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's it's also I mean, even the 2037 01:57:43.720 --> 01:57:47.119 the the the Jewish perspective, the orthodox Jewish perspective would 2038 01:57:47.159 --> 01:57:51.119 be that, uh, that the Torah is as it is 2039 01:57:52.079 --> 01:57:55.039 revealed and is the word of God directly given to 2040 01:57:55.319 --> 01:57:59.439 given to Moses as as guidance. But the argument there 2041 01:57:59.720 --> 01:58:03.359 never never is that it must be uh, it must 2042 01:58:03.439 --> 01:58:07.319 be revealed in the way that Muhammad had his revelations 2043 01:58:07.399 --> 01:58:10.399 allegedly ac current to Islam. That's not the idea. It's 2044 01:58:10.479 --> 01:58:14.680 just again one of those Islamic misunderstandings of how biblical 2045 01:58:14.760 --> 01:58:16.680 tradition actually well. 2046 01:58:16.960 --> 01:58:19.239 And if you look at doctor Khalil's talks like whether 2047 01:58:19.319 --> 01:58:22.600 it's the AUTHORI or the Ashari, like the their idea 2048 01:58:22.840 --> 01:58:27.079 is that Allah has this eternal Qoran with him and 2049 01:58:27.239 --> 01:58:32.039 then Gabriel just basically spits out the eternal Quran that 2050 01:58:32.159 --> 01:58:34.800 Allah wanted to be in time and space. So it's 2051 01:58:34.840 --> 01:58:37.279 like a literal, like like a program that's like an 2052 01:58:37.319 --> 01:58:40.479 ai that spits it out. Yeah, and it's not the 2053 01:58:41.039 --> 01:58:43.760 what we think is like a Lot is speaking to 2054 01:58:43.880 --> 01:58:46.239 the hearts of prophets, but they also have a human 2055 01:58:46.359 --> 01:58:48.600 element to it, to where they're writing their thoughts and 2056 01:58:48.680 --> 01:58:49.840 their their side of it too. 2057 01:58:50.359 --> 01:58:54.359 Exactly exactly. For some reason, the Quran is eternal, and 2058 01:58:54.479 --> 01:58:57.199 a Lot delivers it in some shape or form through 2059 01:58:57.560 --> 01:59:01.600 through Gabriel. But also the care contains several verses that 2060 01:59:01.680 --> 01:59:06.359 are abrogated by later verses. I don't know why. Doesn't 2061 01:59:06.359 --> 01:59:09.359 make sense, but it makes sense. If Allah has a 2062 01:59:09.399 --> 01:59:12.000 perfect plan, divine merse, is it. AP is going to 2063 01:59:12.079 --> 01:59:18.359 become an author, bro so said L. L. Jk uh eighteen. 2064 01:59:18.479 --> 01:59:22.199 Ministry is high, AP. Where can I get your abridged Sahibukari? 2065 01:59:22.520 --> 01:59:24.079 I needed to write that down too, because I wanted 2066 01:59:24.119 --> 01:59:24.880 to get a copy. 2067 01:59:27.359 --> 01:59:39.359 Honestly, Oh yeah, there is. Let me see. I don't know. 2068 01:59:39.399 --> 01:59:41.000 I think I just ordered this from Amazon. 2069 01:59:41.319 --> 01:59:43.239 I think that's what I put on my Amazon list. 2070 01:59:43.359 --> 01:59:46.439 Was I thinks, so this is this is it? 2071 01:59:48.319 --> 01:59:50.680 It looks like this all in one, no repetitions in 2072 01:59:50.760 --> 01:59:54.840 this literary hadith. I'm pretty sure you can find it 2073 01:59:54.920 --> 02:00:01.039 on Amazon, honestly, Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's a pretty good 2074 02:00:01.079 --> 02:00:05.399 addition to you know, quick sources about all the hadeth 2075 02:00:05.640 --> 02:00:09.880 very very nice. Can we get a Shaky booty versus 2076 02:00:10.000 --> 02:00:12.720 move the eye to La Armine in Charlot soon? But 2077 02:00:13.079 --> 02:00:20.239 first we have to do Randy Balls versus exactly? That 2078 02:00:20.279 --> 02:00:22.760 will be the ultimate debit. The world is not ready 2079 02:00:22.760 --> 02:00:24.800 for that, man, Jack said, thank you for the laughter, 2080 02:00:25.000 --> 02:00:28.199 So neat it. Thank you for the laughter, Jackson. So, 2081 02:00:28.319 --> 02:00:31.880 Larry rosen Krawd, they fly cure disease nonsense sounds beils 2082 02:00:32.039 --> 02:00:34.840 button that is true. 2083 02:00:35.319 --> 02:00:37.199 I don't know. I think I think that Muslims really 2084 02:00:37.239 --> 02:00:39.600 need to capitalize on that Jeff Goldbloom fly. 2085 02:00:43.439 --> 02:00:47.880 There were some apologetics from decades ago. It still came 2086 02:00:47.960 --> 02:00:50.479 up like a decade ago or so, which explained that 2087 02:00:51.319 --> 02:00:53.960 the hadith about the fly and the soup is actually 2088 02:00:54.079 --> 02:01:00.960 a miracle because it turns out that fly, that certain 2089 02:01:01.760 --> 02:01:07.039 certain insects that fly may actually contain in their wings 2090 02:01:07.239 --> 02:01:11.199 something that you could extract to use in Uh, you know, 2091 02:01:11.359 --> 02:01:14.560 fighting or curing a certain disease. But none of it 2092 02:01:14.640 --> 02:01:16.680 actually makes sense. It doesn't talk about Hollis flies. It 2093 02:01:16.720 --> 02:01:19.279 doesn't talk about just donking them into your soup. 2094 02:01:23.399 --> 02:01:28.960 Now, I remember, wasn't that didn't they Even before I 2095 02:01:29.079 --> 02:01:32.720 was interested in Islamic stuff, I remember seeing videos and books. 2096 02:01:32.760 --> 02:01:35.039 I even found a book one time, maybe fifteen years ago, 2097 02:01:35.479 --> 02:01:37.840 where they where they would argue about, oh, the you know, 2098 02:01:37.880 --> 02:01:40.159 the Koran is proven by all these miracles about the Quran, 2099 02:01:40.239 --> 02:01:43.159 and there's miracles within the Qoran. But I don't I 2100 02:01:43.199 --> 02:01:45.359 don't hear them using this argument very much. 2101 02:01:45.840 --> 02:01:49.239 It has become very it has become less popular, especially 2102 02:01:49.279 --> 02:01:51.800 over the last ten years. I would say you could 2103 02:01:51.800 --> 02:01:54.800 still hear, like ten years ago, people popularly going to 2104 02:01:54.880 --> 02:01:57.560 the idea that the Kuran contains all these scientific miracles. 2105 02:01:57.960 --> 02:02:03.439 We had recently, even popular Muslim apologists like Ali Dhawa, 2106 02:02:03.520 --> 02:02:09.439 who happens to be a very big intellectual powerhouse. He said, 2107 02:02:10.920 --> 02:02:14.079 he said that the scientific miracles narrative that he himself 2108 02:02:14.119 --> 02:02:16.279 believed in it and it made him convert to Islam, 2109 02:02:16.319 --> 02:02:19.640 but it has been debunked. He explicitly said that it 2110 02:02:19.800 --> 02:02:22.439 has been debunked. That is no longer, it is not valid. 2111 02:02:22.479 --> 02:02:24.279 It's not a good point, and people shouldn't be using 2112 02:02:24.319 --> 02:02:27.800 it anymore because you can't appeal to science to prove 2113 02:02:27.840 --> 02:02:28.760 that the Quran is true. 2114 02:02:30.079 --> 02:02:34.039 And when that's because of the Quran itself doesn't say 2115 02:02:34.159 --> 02:02:36.359 that you can go to science, why would they not 2116 02:02:36.479 --> 02:02:37.000 want to use that. 2117 02:02:37.760 --> 02:02:42.000 Well, they developed the idea that they would be giving 2118 02:02:42.159 --> 02:02:45.279 science too much authority to judge over what is true 2119 02:02:45.279 --> 02:02:47.039 and what is not. But the problem with that is 2120 02:02:47.079 --> 02:02:51.239 that the Quran repeatedly says it repeatedly appeals to the 2121 02:02:51.359 --> 02:02:54.159 natural world and says, do they not see how we 2122 02:02:54.840 --> 02:02:57.399 how we created the heaven with no crack in it? 2123 02:02:57.760 --> 02:03:00.680 And how we did this and that? So the Quran 2124 02:03:00.760 --> 02:03:03.800 itself repeatedly appeals to science. Is a. 2125 02:03:05.520 --> 02:03:07.319 Place in the Koran. I was trying to remember this, like, 2126 02:03:07.439 --> 02:03:10.319 isn't there something like where it says something like, oh, 2127 02:03:10.359 --> 02:03:13.920 if you doubt this, recite it and listen to how 2128 02:03:13.960 --> 02:03:16.800 beautiful it is, and how isn't there something like that. 2129 02:03:18.279 --> 02:03:23.000 There? There are references references like that there if you 2130 02:03:23.119 --> 02:03:25.760 if you if you have doubts. I'm not sure if 2131 02:03:25.800 --> 02:03:28.359 there is a if there is a passage specifically about 2132 02:03:28.359 --> 02:03:31.520 the recitation if there is nothing like. 2133 02:03:32.000 --> 02:03:35.680 How could how could this be composed the way it was? 2134 02:03:36.399 --> 02:03:38.960 Yeah, it does. It makes references to that, to how 2135 02:03:39.119 --> 02:03:42.479 how beautiful and how wonderful this this text is, or 2136 02:03:42.560 --> 02:03:45.399 this this revelation, this message is, and how no one 2137 02:03:45.479 --> 02:03:49.239 can make anything like this and it is perfect. This 2138 02:03:49.399 --> 02:03:52.279 is why Also the challenge exists that nobody can bring 2139 02:03:52.439 --> 02:03:54.800 a chapter or a verse or a book that is 2140 02:03:54.920 --> 02:03:57.960 better than That's that's the one I'm trying toeah exactly exactly. 2141 02:03:58.039 --> 02:03:59.239 It's a ridiculous argument. 2142 02:03:59.319 --> 02:04:03.640 But yeah. I even discussed this with a Muslim academic 2143 02:04:03.680 --> 02:04:05.800 at Harvard. I had him on my channel. I interviewed 2144 02:04:05.880 --> 02:04:09.439 him and I asked him the question said, does this 2145 02:04:09.600 --> 02:04:13.119 question even make sense because it seems that that that 2146 02:04:13.239 --> 02:04:17.800 that that that the challenge would be invalid, uh and illogical. 2147 02:04:17.920 --> 02:04:20.279 He said, yeah, I I agree, it's it doesn't make 2148 02:04:20.279 --> 02:04:22.199 any sense because there is no standard by which you 2149 02:04:22.239 --> 02:04:25.720 can judge whether whether a text is better or worse. 2150 02:04:26.000 --> 02:04:29.560 So and it would always be in the hands of 2151 02:04:29.640 --> 02:04:32.920 the of the Muslims to decide yours is not better 2152 02:04:32.960 --> 02:04:38.560 than the better. Yeah, obviously this is much better, but. 2153 02:04:38.680 --> 02:04:43.119 It's it's just that's like which one tastes better. Well, 2154 02:04:43.199 --> 02:04:45.520 clearly this scoop tastes better. It doesn't have a fly 2155 02:04:45.680 --> 02:04:45.840 in it. 2156 02:04:49.239 --> 02:04:54.000 Right, good point, Good point him, And he said, chef allah, 2157 02:04:54.159 --> 02:04:56.520 and now for our third course, we have nearly rotten 2158 02:04:56.600 --> 02:04:59.079 meat with a double fly wing sauce. 2159 02:05:02.039 --> 02:05:04.279 No, there's no Jewish chefs around, so. 2160 02:05:08.079 --> 02:05:09.920 I have to give them one thing. So we talk 2161 02:05:09.960 --> 02:05:12.199 about these culinary things. We mark them and make fun 2162 02:05:12.239 --> 02:05:15.680 of them. There's one thing that is respectable about about 2163 02:05:15.680 --> 02:05:19.159 the culinary practices and advices, which is which would be 2164 02:05:19.880 --> 02:05:24.920 when a group of people came to Mohammed, they felt 2165 02:05:25.079 --> 02:05:30.039 very sick, so he told them, go and drink the 2166 02:05:30.199 --> 02:05:33.399 milk and the urine of a camel and you will 2167 02:05:33.439 --> 02:05:37.159 feel you will feel better. So they went away, and 2168 02:05:37.199 --> 02:05:40.039 then they came back and they allegedly felt better, but 2169 02:05:40.119 --> 02:05:43.199 then they ended up killing uh this this Muslim guys, 2170 02:05:43.520 --> 02:05:45.680 the Muslim guid and taking all these camels and then 2171 02:05:45.760 --> 02:05:48.279 running away with it with it. So for some reason 2172 02:05:48.359 --> 02:05:51.760 they were convinced or they it helped them they felt better, 2173 02:05:51.840 --> 02:05:55.119 but then they ended up robbing this guy, uh, there's Muslim, 2174 02:05:55.159 --> 02:05:58.239 and then running away with the camels, and which is 2175 02:05:58.319 --> 02:06:02.000 why they were apprehended and then killed by cutting off 2176 02:06:02.000 --> 02:06:04.680 their hands and feet from opposite sides and branding them. 2177 02:06:04.600 --> 02:06:04.680 And. 2178 02:06:06.880 --> 02:06:13.159 That Mohammad and the authors might just be writing comedy. 2179 02:06:14.640 --> 02:06:18.720 Consider that theis I don't know, but when I read 2180 02:06:18.760 --> 02:06:20.479 that story, it just makes me think, Wait a minute. 2181 02:06:20.520 --> 02:06:23.159 So Mohammed gives them the advice, Hey, how about just 2182 02:06:23.279 --> 02:06:25.600 drink some urine, drink some cameras And they're like okay. 2183 02:06:25.920 --> 02:06:28.199 Then they go and when they come back, they're so 2184 02:06:28.439 --> 02:06:32.239 mad that they actually kill kill Mohammed's guy and take 2185 02:06:32.279 --> 02:06:34.560 all his camels and try to run away. It looks 2186 02:06:34.640 --> 02:06:36.279 like they weren't really happy with the advice. 2187 02:06:36.399 --> 02:06:39.760 Ah okay, So, by the way, does that mean that 2188 02:06:39.800 --> 02:06:41.439 you drink up separate or am I supposed to put 2189 02:06:41.439 --> 02:06:41.800 them together? 2190 02:06:42.039 --> 02:06:42.079 Like? 2191 02:06:42.960 --> 02:06:47.239 Depends why your preference? Whatever you like best? Yeah, yeah, 2192 02:06:47.840 --> 02:06:49.399 but that's why I always have to have a bottle 2193 02:06:49.399 --> 02:06:55.000 of urine here. Uh call off? Goodora. Hello boys, Do 2194 02:06:55.119 --> 02:06:57.439 either of you know what the Shia hadith say about 2195 02:06:57.520 --> 02:07:03.359 aisha praise to odin? How dare you? I'm not extremely 2196 02:07:03.399 --> 02:07:07.800 familiar with chi Id's They have the Kittaba Kafi, which 2197 02:07:07.880 --> 02:07:13.199 is different narrations about with things that Muhammad said. They 2198 02:07:13.279 --> 02:07:16.720 don't have a very good view of Aisha Mohammed's child bride. 2199 02:07:18.039 --> 02:07:20.279 They usually call her a prostitute and things like that. 2200 02:07:20.600 --> 02:07:23.279 They're pretty harsh about her. But I'm not sure how 2201 02:07:23.359 --> 02:07:25.439 much of that comes from Ahadith. Honestly, you'd have to 2202 02:07:25.439 --> 02:07:28.279 ask somebody else about that. Not very good with my 2203 02:07:28.359 --> 02:07:33.439 Shia stuff. Stumaham hey ap please life with xsom Zahil 2204 02:07:33.479 --> 02:07:37.319 and Adam seeker Inhola one day uh tendu blood chats 2205 02:07:37.479 --> 02:07:40.479 bugged boys, Only super chats can fix it. You know what, 2206 02:07:40.640 --> 02:07:44.119 It actually got fixed when I went into the settings 2207 02:07:44.159 --> 02:07:46.159 of the stream as it was happening and switched to 2208 02:07:46.239 --> 02:07:48.680 subscribers only mode, and then and then back again to 2209 02:07:49.359 --> 02:07:51.920 no subscribers only. More than suddenly the chats started working again. 2210 02:07:52.399 --> 02:07:57.520 Very very weird wild It was probably the Jews. Karamasao said, 2211 02:07:57.960 --> 02:08:00.640 I feel like Jonathan Plejot would like to go on 2212 02:08:00.720 --> 02:08:03.079 a hyper analysis of the symbolism of the fly in 2213 02:08:03.199 --> 02:08:04.119 the Superdith. 2214 02:08:06.039 --> 02:08:08.159 That's funny. I do think you're right, though, to call 2215 02:08:08.239 --> 02:08:11.319 attention to the fact that a lot of the symbolic 2216 02:08:11.560 --> 02:08:16.199 and the like, even going into deep debates with Muslims 2217 02:08:16.199 --> 02:08:19.600 above the attributes. It's like doing a disservice because it's 2218 02:08:19.600 --> 02:08:22.920 given the impression that this is like this really sophisticated deep. 2219 02:08:23.560 --> 02:08:25.119 Really it's just a bunch of goofy stuff. 2220 02:08:25.640 --> 02:08:28.439 Yeah, it's it is. It is pretty dumb. It's the 2221 02:08:28.600 --> 02:08:31.600 example of for example, in Kuran, in the Quran, in 2222 02:08:31.840 --> 02:08:36.880 chapter eighteen, verse eighty six, that is also the that 2223 02:08:37.000 --> 02:08:39.000 is the part where it talks about Alexander the Great. 2224 02:08:40.640 --> 02:08:44.199 That is where the Quran mentions that that he went 2225 02:08:44.520 --> 02:08:48.920 to the setting place of the sun and he found 2226 02:08:49.119 --> 02:08:52.960 it setting in a a a in a dark muddy water, 2227 02:08:54.319 --> 02:08:56.159 and he found it near it eight people and so on, 2228 02:08:56.359 --> 02:08:58.399 So it says he found the sun setting in a 2229 02:08:58.479 --> 02:09:02.319 muddy spring. Basically, nowadays, when you when you discuss this, 2230 02:09:03.039 --> 02:09:06.760 Muslims will talk about what this actually means and the 2231 02:09:06.840 --> 02:09:10.359 metaphorical aspect of it and how it appears when you 2232 02:09:10.479 --> 02:09:12.279 look from a distance at the sea and so on. 2233 02:09:12.800 --> 02:09:17.279 But the thing is, the earliest Muslim exegetes weren't quite 2234 02:09:17.319 --> 02:09:18.159 that deep about it. 2235 02:09:18.399 --> 02:09:21.600 For example, have this deep symbolic guess meaning. 2236 02:09:21.800 --> 02:09:24.840 So Sierra Altabar is one of the earliest ext Jesus, 2237 02:09:24.960 --> 02:09:29.159 and it says it discusses this verse on over multiple 2238 02:09:29.199 --> 02:09:33.960 pages and all it does is it talks about where 2239 02:09:34.079 --> 02:09:36.439 this place is where the sun sets in a muddy spring, 2240 02:09:36.760 --> 02:09:38.880 and then it talks about how whether this spring is 2241 02:09:38.960 --> 02:09:42.399 hot or just dark or muddy and so on. So 2242 02:09:42.600 --> 02:09:47.119 it's Jesus, no, no, nothing at all. It's quite literally 2243 02:09:47.319 --> 02:09:52.039 just seeing the sun actually setting anybody spring. You have 2244 02:09:52.159 --> 02:09:54.119 to read into it to come up with something deeper. 2245 02:09:56.000 --> 02:09:59.079 The notes here say we need not read this in 2246 02:09:59.279 --> 02:10:03.720 a literal way. It says, it says, it is probably 2247 02:10:03.880 --> 02:10:06.840 just describing the way that the sun would would appear 2248 02:10:06.920 --> 02:10:09.720 to set to the human perspective, of course. 2249 02:10:09.560 --> 02:10:12.199 Of course, of course, but for some reason, it's also 2250 02:10:12.439 --> 02:10:18.000 the setting place of the sun. Yeah no, I'm mkw. 2251 02:10:18.279 --> 02:10:20.159 Don't you feel bad for the garden kids? We can't 2252 02:10:20.159 --> 02:10:26.960 celebrate nine to eleven and so such. That's pretty that's 2253 02:10:27.000 --> 02:10:32.840 pretty dark. Yeah, you have. I posted it earlier today. 2254 02:10:32.960 --> 02:10:38.039 We have always had the videos of Muslim populations including it, 2255 02:10:38.199 --> 02:10:41.560 especially the Palestine and Era population celebrating nine to eleven. 2256 02:10:42.960 --> 02:10:45.359 It's no lie. I grew up among Muslims. I grew 2257 02:10:45.439 --> 02:10:50.319 up as a Muslim immigrant in Germany. It was it 2258 02:10:50.520 --> 02:10:53.640 was the normal thing to justify it, or to be 2259 02:10:53.800 --> 02:10:57.319 happy about it, or to be quiet about it because 2260 02:10:57.359 --> 02:10:59.520 we don't want to brag about it too much, or 2261 02:10:59.560 --> 02:11:01.880 to say what about a rook and so on. This 2262 02:11:02.079 --> 02:11:07.359 was the general almost attitude. Shouldn't be a secret, but 2263 02:11:07.520 --> 02:11:11.720 yeah whatever, Neil seven seven seven seven. Now I know 2264 02:11:11.920 --> 02:11:15.199 why a small mustache man hated Jews his favorite meat 2265 02:11:15.359 --> 02:11:18.399 decayd when he was a child. This makes sense. This 2266 02:11:18.520 --> 02:11:21.039 explains one of the one of the reasons why Hitler 2267 02:11:21.079 --> 02:11:25.840 went all mad or Hirschfield made a superstiket which I 2268 02:11:25.920 --> 02:11:27.640 cannot see here, but I'm sure it's a very good one. 2269 02:11:27.680 --> 02:11:30.920 Thank you. Rage Murray made a superstiket which I also 2270 02:11:31.000 --> 02:11:34.840 can't see. Interesting, Jordan Floris, but thank you. Is Randy 2271 02:11:34.920 --> 02:11:36.359 going to do an altar call. 2272 02:11:38.319 --> 02:11:42.000 In the in the next third installment of Randy Ball videos? 2273 02:11:42.039 --> 02:11:43.800 I will do an altar call just for you, Jordan. 2274 02:11:44.600 --> 02:11:46.880 That's good, that's good. See you heard it here first, 2275 02:11:48.000 --> 02:11:49.760 John Smith. As someone who has read the Book of 2276 02:11:49.840 --> 02:11:52.159 the Council of Nicea, I can confirm as long as 2277 02:11:52.239 --> 02:11:59.359 to Caleb Warku Jay thoughts on Aisha age and her 2278 02:11:59.439 --> 02:11:59.920 marriage to. 2279 02:12:01.960 --> 02:12:05.319 Yeah, I mean, I think it's pretty obviously a sign 2280 02:12:05.520 --> 02:12:10.960 that this is a weird cult, that you know they 2281 02:12:11.000 --> 02:12:13.880 work so hard to defend this that Daniel and Jake 2282 02:12:13.920 --> 02:12:16.119 and these people, Like, I thought it was odd in 2283 02:12:16.199 --> 02:12:18.760 the debate. It didn't bother me, but it was like 2284 02:12:19.239 --> 02:12:21.359 the first half of the debate it's about attributes in 2285 02:12:21.399 --> 02:12:23.399 the Quran, and then suddenly all they wanted to debate 2286 02:12:23.520 --> 02:12:27.439 was about trying to prove that Christianity affirms their view 2287 02:12:27.479 --> 02:12:31.199 of child marriage. And I'm just like, it doesn't. But 2288 02:12:31.880 --> 02:12:35.760 even if there were younger ages of consent, Like, I 2289 02:12:36.119 --> 02:12:38.680 just don't understand what this what they were trying to 2290 02:12:38.840 --> 02:12:41.920 prove with that, with getting me to say that, you know, 2291 02:12:42.119 --> 02:12:45.079 medieval Catholic canon law allows you to marry a girl 2292 02:12:45.159 --> 02:12:47.239 after puberty if she's thirteen or four, And I'm like, 2293 02:12:47.760 --> 02:12:49.279 but what is that. I don't understand what this is 2294 02:12:49.319 --> 02:12:53.760 supposed to prove that therefore then a pre pubescent marriage 2295 02:12:53.840 --> 02:12:55.720 is okay. I mean, it's just a really bizarre line 2296 02:12:55.720 --> 02:12:58.600 of argumentation. I think it's absurd. 2297 02:12:58.720 --> 02:13:06.359 Honestly, why don't condemned h Thomas Aquinas? Wasn't that what 2298 02:13:06.439 --> 02:13:07.000 he repeated? 2299 02:13:07.159 --> 02:13:11.680 Yeah that was I think, uh yeah, Daniel said that, 2300 02:13:11.840 --> 02:13:13.720 and then Jake had a video about that. 2301 02:13:13.880 --> 02:13:19.359 Yeah, and you even said I'm ready to condemn it. Yeah, okay, 2302 02:13:19.880 --> 02:13:20.960 he feels to condemn. 2303 02:13:21.840 --> 02:13:23.399 And then and then they made a video saying that. 2304 02:13:23.479 --> 02:13:25.359 Then they said, see he won't condemn aquinas for this. 2305 02:13:25.479 --> 02:13:29.039 I'm like, okay, is wrong. I don't know. It's like 2306 02:13:29.079 --> 02:13:31.479 they didn't even care that Like to the Orthodox, we're 2307 02:13:31.520 --> 02:13:33.960 not really that concerned about the quinas. But whatever. But 2308 02:13:34.319 --> 02:13:37.960 even if even if we accepted a coinus like, I 2309 02:13:37.960 --> 02:13:40.359 don't have a problem saying that there can be different 2310 02:13:40.439 --> 02:13:44.640 times in different places for what's acceptable for marriage, but 2311 02:13:44.680 --> 02:13:48.039 that wouldn't vindicate child marriage. 2312 02:13:48.920 --> 02:13:53.800 They also I don't know if you looked into this afterward, 2313 02:13:53.920 --> 02:13:56.600 but jenneally Key, could you lied in the debate about 2314 02:13:56.680 --> 02:14:01.239 with you once again about the Catholic encyclopaedia. Yeah, when 2315 02:14:01.279 --> 02:14:04.079 he made the claim that the Catholican's cupidias uh says 2316 02:14:04.159 --> 02:14:07.039 that Mary was was was twelve years old or so, 2317 02:14:09.119 --> 02:14:11.359 and that this is totally fine in the Catholics Compidia. 2318 02:14:11.600 --> 02:14:14.039 This is not true. And he has been confronted on 2319 02:14:14.119 --> 02:14:15.840 this multiple times. 2320 02:14:17.840 --> 02:14:20.199 And actually look at, uh, what what is the Catholics 2321 02:14:20.399 --> 02:14:20.840 VIDIA say? 2322 02:14:21.479 --> 02:14:28.119 What does it say? I had it pulled up before because. 2323 02:14:27.880 --> 02:14:30.560 I went well or what whatever? What's whatever? He's been 2324 02:14:30.600 --> 02:14:32.159 confronted with I'm not familiar with this. 2325 02:14:32.920 --> 02:14:43.000 Let's see. Let's see. Let's see incarnation devotion, marriage, marriage, 2326 02:14:43.079 --> 02:14:47.359 marriage marriage marriage. Oh yeah, here, let's see. Let's see. 2327 02:14:47.760 --> 02:14:49.640 So we have the source here. When it comes to 2328 02:14:49.880 --> 02:14:54.199 the marriage, it says, it is probably at Nathers that 2329 02:14:54.319 --> 02:14:57.319 Joseph bitsathed in marriageer who was to become the mother 2330 02:14:57.399 --> 02:14:59.560 of God when the marriage took place, whether before or after, 2331 02:14:59.640 --> 02:15:02.760 the incre nation, is no easy matter to settle. And 2332 02:15:02.960 --> 02:15:05.640 on this point the masters of Exejesus at all times 2333 02:15:05.680 --> 02:15:09.680 been at variants. It will not be without interest to 2334 02:15:09.800 --> 02:15:14.960 recall here unreliable, though they are, the lengthy stories concerning 2335 02:15:15.000 --> 02:15:18.960 Saint Joseph's marriage contained in the apocryphal writings. When forty 2336 02:15:19.079 --> 02:15:21.600 years of age, Joseph married a woman called Melco or 2337 02:15:21.760 --> 02:15:26.159 Esha by some salon by others, and so on, it 2338 02:15:26.279 --> 02:15:29.760 then further says, oh, yeah, here they wish to find 2339 02:15:29.880 --> 02:15:33.359 in the tribe of Judah respectable man to espouse Mary. 2340 02:15:33.479 --> 02:15:36.840 And then twelve to fourteen years of age, Joseph, who 2341 02:15:36.920 --> 02:15:39.239 was at the time ninety years old, went up to Jerusalem. 2342 02:15:39.399 --> 02:15:42.560 Among the candidates, a miracle manifested the choice God had 2343 02:15:42.600 --> 02:15:46.840 made of Joseph, and two years later the annunciation took place, 2344 02:15:47.079 --> 02:15:49.840 So two years according to this narrative, after she was 2345 02:15:50.359 --> 02:15:52.760 between twelve and fourteen years. 2346 02:15:52.640 --> 02:15:54.079 Old fourteen to sixteen. 2347 02:15:54.600 --> 02:15:57.399 Yeah, these dreams is a Saint Jerome styles them, from 2348 02:15:57.399 --> 02:15:59.920 which many a Christian artists has drawn his inspirations. See 2349 02:16:00.039 --> 02:16:04.760 for instance, Raphael's espousal of the virgins are avoid of authority. 2350 02:16:06.399 --> 02:16:10.000 Avoid of authority, They nevertheless acquired in the course of 2351 02:16:10.079 --> 02:16:12.880 ages some popularity, and then some ecclesiastical writers sought the 2352 02:16:12.920 --> 02:16:14.960 answer to the well known difficulty arising from the mention 2353 02:16:15.079 --> 02:16:17.640 in the Gospel of the Lord's Brothers and so on. 2354 02:16:18.079 --> 02:16:24.880 So first off, void of authority. Secondly, it explicitly says 2355 02:16:24.960 --> 02:16:29.560 here unreliable, though they are so the Catholic encyclopedia here 2356 02:16:29.760 --> 02:16:32.079 never makes the claim that this is the age of 2357 02:16:32.360 --> 02:16:36.280 Mary when she was married. It only says that there 2358 02:16:36.319 --> 02:16:42.040 are certain traditions unreliable from the perspective of the Catholic encyclopedia, 2359 02:16:42.559 --> 02:16:46.559 and have no authority. But Daniel has been corrected on this, 2360 02:16:46.680 --> 02:16:51.639 But he will repeatedly claim that even the today says this. 2361 02:16:52.239 --> 02:16:55.559 So this is another lie that he makes about that 2362 02:16:55.639 --> 02:16:58.440 he repeatedly tells about child marriage to justify it, and 2363 02:16:58.680 --> 02:17:02.440 it's such a horrible I mean, who is actually convinced 2364 02:17:02.479 --> 02:17:06.879 when they debate and argue for child marriage. Who actually 2365 02:17:07.399 --> 02:17:09.879 watches this and says, oh, okay, they're making a good point. 2366 02:17:10.239 --> 02:17:12.000 I guess it's okay to married children. 2367 02:17:13.959 --> 02:17:20.360 Yeah. Yeah, it's kind of sad, but I mean, oh, 2368 02:17:20.600 --> 02:17:22.159 that reminds me that there was that I don't know 2369 02:17:22.159 --> 02:17:24.079 if you saw that video. Shake Uthman was doing the 2370 02:17:24.079 --> 02:17:26.879 same thing where he was saying that the Torah has 2371 02:17:27.559 --> 02:17:31.799 proof that Rachel was three, and it's not true. That's 2372 02:17:32.879 --> 02:17:36.360 in the Talmud, giving an opinion that he thought she 2373 02:17:36.520 --> 02:17:37.920 might be, which is not in the Torah. 2374 02:17:38.079 --> 02:17:42.120 So yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, it's it's not Yeah, it's 2375 02:17:42.200 --> 02:17:46.159 it's all completely irrelevant and ridiculous. Jim as if all 2376 02:17:46.319 --> 02:17:51.280 is all Paulvalant all knowing, can abrogation exist? But technically 2377 02:17:51.319 --> 02:17:53.000 it could. It would be part of his plan right 2378 02:17:53.159 --> 02:17:56.920 to Sandy Kuran that has prior verses that abrogate or 2379 02:17:57.040 --> 02:17:59.680 later verses of abrocate prior ones. But it's kind of 2380 02:17:59.760 --> 02:18:03.239 weird that a law would have this eternal revelation sent 2381 02:18:03.440 --> 02:18:08.159 to humanity revealed within just twenty years and within that 2382 02:18:08.600 --> 02:18:11.920 within those twenty years there are verses that are abrogated 2383 02:18:12.000 --> 02:18:15.239 by later verses for some reason. It's a weird plan. 2384 02:18:18.120 --> 02:18:19.920 Then again, you can't question the wisdom of all lung 2385 02:18:20.280 --> 02:18:22.239 just to it. Jay, what's the hardest debate you've had 2386 02:18:22.319 --> 02:18:22.719 and why? 2387 02:18:26.239 --> 02:18:28.319 I guess it's a tough one because I mean you 2388 02:18:28.360 --> 02:18:31.000 could say hard in terms of like whether the opponent 2389 02:18:31.120 --> 02:18:34.319 is really obtuse and stupid, or hard in the sense 2390 02:18:34.319 --> 02:18:38.559 of like did somebody propose a real challenge. I mean, 2391 02:18:38.600 --> 02:18:40.920 we haven't really had a debate with anybody that had 2392 02:18:40.920 --> 02:18:46.159 a significant, you know, hard argument to answer because most 2393 02:18:46.280 --> 02:18:48.760 most of the time I try to know my opponent's 2394 02:18:48.799 --> 02:18:52.959 position as best I can. I'd say probably one of 2395 02:18:53.000 --> 02:18:56.959 the better debates is maybe doctor Malpass because he because 2396 02:18:57.000 --> 02:18:59.239 he knows I think when I debate somebody who's an 2397 02:18:59.239 --> 02:19:02.000 actual professor or like has a degree in philosophy, those 2398 02:19:02.120 --> 02:19:05.680 usually go better because they know philosophy and they don't 2399 02:19:05.719 --> 02:19:11.600 make stupid arguments and you're not getting frustrated. But so far, 2400 02:19:11.600 --> 02:19:13.319 there hasn't been a person that I think really like 2401 02:19:13.440 --> 02:19:16.399 stumped me or like, you know one. I'm not trying 2402 02:19:16.440 --> 02:19:18.079 to be arrogant. I'm just saying I don't think that 2403 02:19:18.200 --> 02:19:20.959 there's been one yet. There could be, but not so far. 2404 02:19:21.920 --> 02:19:25.000 What about Muslim Lantern. I heard that Muslim Lantern was 2405 02:19:25.079 --> 02:19:27.360 really tough and really defeated you in the debate. 2406 02:19:29.760 --> 02:19:32.920 I actually thought he would. I expected better of him. 2407 02:19:32.920 --> 02:19:34.600 I mean, I was not familiar with him. I've never 2408 02:19:34.680 --> 02:19:37.559 seen any of his stuff. But then, you know, pretty 2409 02:19:37.639 --> 02:19:39.520 quickly into that, I could see that he was not 2410 02:19:39.600 --> 02:19:43.239 going to be a very good faith debater, so he 2411 02:19:43.479 --> 02:19:45.040 was actually probably one of the lower tier. 2412 02:19:45.879 --> 02:19:49.000 Yeah. Yeah, Jerome a lot of refuting the divinity of 2413 02:19:49.120 --> 02:19:51.360 Christ and of Mary, who is part of the trinity 2414 02:19:52.239 --> 02:19:55.280 Quran five seventy five Jesus and Mary aged food. Never 2415 02:19:55.360 --> 02:19:59.559 heard of the hypostatic union. Yeah, the Quran fails to 2416 02:19:59.639 --> 02:20:05.079 completely understand anything about the nature of Christ. Go ahead. 2417 02:20:05.360 --> 02:20:07.760 This is a really good point too, that's overlooked. I'm 2418 02:20:07.760 --> 02:20:11.000 glad you mentioned that, because if if I was going 2419 02:20:11.040 --> 02:20:13.680 to believe the chron, if the chron wanted to compile, 2420 02:20:13.799 --> 02:20:16.799 or if they want to convince me, they would at 2421 02:20:16.920 --> 02:20:20.280 least get the theology right, you know what I mean, 2422 02:20:20.319 --> 02:20:24.040 they would say, Oh, you know, at nicea these Aarrant Christians, 2423 02:20:25.120 --> 02:20:27.719 you know, taught that Jesus is the second person of 2424 02:20:27.799 --> 02:20:31.120 the Godhead, and that he's Homo lusius. But they don't 2425 02:20:31.120 --> 02:20:32.520 even get the basics. 2426 02:20:32.120 --> 02:20:35.920 Right, Yeah, yeah, precisely, And this is not the only 2427 02:20:36.040 --> 02:20:40.520 verse that is that also, by the way, references Mary 2428 02:20:41.000 --> 02:20:47.360 as part of trinity godhead. It also refers to look 2429 02:20:47.399 --> 02:20:51.719 at this. You might have seen this verse. If not, 2430 02:20:52.120 --> 02:20:55.719 I would say, is definitely something to look into. So 2431 02:20:56.079 --> 02:20:59.479 chapter five, verse one hundred and sixteen. And when Allah 2432 02:20:59.559 --> 02:21:02.799 will say, oh, Jesus, son of Mary, did you say 2433 02:21:02.879 --> 02:21:07.440 to the people, take me and my mother is deities? 2434 02:21:07.520 --> 02:21:10.959 Besides Allah? He will say, exalted are you? It was 2435 02:21:11.040 --> 02:21:12.799 not for me to say that, to which I have 2436 02:21:13.040 --> 02:21:17.280 no right, and so on. So just by asking, just 2437 02:21:17.360 --> 02:21:20.559 by saying that, Allah will ask Jesus this question, did 2438 02:21:20.639 --> 02:21:22.959 you tell the people to take me and my mother 2439 02:21:23.120 --> 02:21:26.239 is deities? Besides Allah? The Quran is seemingly implying here 2440 02:21:26.280 --> 02:21:30.600 that Christians do indeed believe in Jesus and marry as 2441 02:21:31.120 --> 02:21:36.680 a part of the God had and divine, which Muslims 2442 02:21:36.719 --> 02:21:39.399 today tried to explain by saying, oh, it was probably 2443 02:21:39.440 --> 02:21:42.559 in reference to a sect of Christians and all that, 2444 02:21:42.680 --> 02:21:46.159 but it's it's again one of those you know you 2445 02:21:46.239 --> 02:21:47.120 can say anything. Now. 2446 02:21:47.280 --> 02:21:49.319 Well, this is funny because you'll notice if you have 2447 02:21:49.440 --> 02:21:52.000 a debate with a Musulman who knows his religion, he 2448 02:21:52.120 --> 02:21:55.559 always has the expectation and the demand that you present 2449 02:21:55.760 --> 02:21:59.879 his position accurately. Right, Yeah, the Quran didn't present accurately 2450 02:22:00.239 --> 02:22:02.239 the seventh centuries of Christianity prior. 2451 02:22:02.120 --> 02:22:07.079 To it, exactly exactly. It's because the grant's author didn't 2452 02:22:07.120 --> 02:22:11.440 understand anything exactly that the Christians or the Jews believed, 2453 02:22:11.920 --> 02:22:17.159 which is why he got so many things wrong. Nico, Hey, Ap, 2454 02:22:17.280 --> 02:22:19.360 do you find moral issues in the Old Testament challenging 2455 02:22:19.520 --> 02:22:21.879 or has David would help with interpretation? It could be 2456 02:22:21.920 --> 02:22:24.559 fun to discuss with Jay God bless In all honesty, 2457 02:22:24.680 --> 02:22:26.639 I had I've never really had big issues with the 2458 02:22:26.719 --> 02:22:30.920 moral problems in the Old Testament. And this might sound 2459 02:22:31.000 --> 02:22:35.040 surprising to some people, especially to atheists and others. But 2460 02:22:36.399 --> 02:22:38.239 I also said in the past, for example, that I 2461 02:22:38.360 --> 02:22:41.840 don't that I can't condemn even slavery that took place 2462 02:22:41.959 --> 02:22:46.440 several centuries ago. If there is if slavery is a 2463 02:22:46.559 --> 02:22:48.879 norm that you deal with, that you do in a 2464 02:22:49.000 --> 02:22:51.840 society where this is how you deal with your enemy 2465 02:22:51.879 --> 02:22:54.479 in order to stop them from being a danger for 2466 02:22:54.600 --> 02:22:56.920 you in the future, and you put them to some 2467 02:22:57.360 --> 02:22:59.920 use instead of massacring them. If that was the norm, 2468 02:23:00.079 --> 02:23:02.360 I can't blame people in that time for the slavery 2469 02:23:02.399 --> 02:23:04.879 that they participated in. I could say that that this 2470 02:23:05.040 --> 02:23:08.079 is even I know this is very controversial, but I 2471 02:23:08.120 --> 02:23:13.399 could even go into the future with that, to to 2472 02:23:13.479 --> 02:23:17.600 the United States of America. I can't condemn individual slavers 2473 02:23:17.639 --> 02:23:20.159 and slave owners in that society where it is, where 2474 02:23:20.159 --> 02:23:22.079 it is a normal thing. I would say it's good 2475 02:23:22.120 --> 02:23:28.280 that it is eventually abolished, but condemning individuals for doing that. 2476 02:23:28.440 --> 02:23:28.479 No. 2477 02:23:29.239 --> 02:23:31.559 In the time of the of the Old Testament, it 2478 02:23:31.680 --> 02:23:35.600 is a time that is profoundly completely different from our 2479 02:23:35.920 --> 02:23:42.239 modern time, where a different handling of matters may have 2480 02:23:42.399 --> 02:23:46.840 been required, and it was okay for that time. Both 2481 02:23:46.920 --> 02:23:52.680 Christianity and even Judaism, which does not does not believe 2482 02:23:52.719 --> 02:23:55.920 in replacing or you know, fulfilling or abolishing the Old Law, 2483 02:23:56.840 --> 02:24:00.760 both moved on from much of it, even depending Judaism 2484 02:24:00.840 --> 02:24:03.120 for example. And to tell them what discusses how certain 2485 02:24:03.200 --> 02:24:05.920 matters are matters of the past and no longer applicable 2486 02:24:05.920 --> 02:24:08.520 in our time, and so on. So I have no 2487 02:24:08.680 --> 02:24:11.639 problem acknowledging that there are things that were considered okay 2488 02:24:11.799 --> 02:24:16.280 back then not today. It's all right. Do you have 2489 02:24:16.280 --> 02:24:17.440 any comment on that, Jay. 2490 02:24:17.760 --> 02:24:20.920 No, I pretty much agree with that. I think you 2491 02:24:21.040 --> 02:24:24.440 have in the ancient world God meeting people where they were, 2492 02:24:24.639 --> 02:24:28.040 and he didn't have. If you look at the way 2493 02:24:28.079 --> 02:24:31.879 the Bible progresses in our perspective, you know, there's very 2494 02:24:32.000 --> 02:24:36.319 few expectations put upon people in Noah's day, very few 2495 02:24:36.399 --> 02:24:40.479 expectations even in Abraham's day. So the expectations kind of 2496 02:24:41.440 --> 02:24:46.559 grow with mankind's progression. And the Church brothers discussed this 2497 02:24:46.760 --> 02:24:52.719 from a kind of immaturity to maturation, and so the expectations. 2498 02:24:52.760 --> 02:24:54.440 You know, Jesus says, to who much has given, much 2499 02:24:54.520 --> 02:24:57.040 is required. So as we progress in terms of history, 2500 02:24:57.559 --> 02:25:00.520 I think there's a god can't expect more are because 2501 02:25:00.559 --> 02:25:02.079 of because of progression. 2502 02:25:03.079 --> 02:25:04.799 Yeah, that's good. 2503 02:25:05.799 --> 02:25:05.879 Uh. 2504 02:25:06.040 --> 02:25:09.360 Grigsy Gregoriovniza refute to ap Are you really do you 2505 02:25:09.440 --> 02:25:10.879 really want to have a discussion about Jews? 2506 02:25:10.920 --> 02:25:11.079 Now? 2507 02:25:12.319 --> 02:25:13.920 I'm pretty sure that this is what this is about. 2508 02:25:17.040 --> 02:25:23.000 I'm not going to have that discussion. Old Testament, New Testament, truth, dinosaur, 2509 02:25:23.079 --> 02:25:27.280 Old Testament nutisment fantastic comments here. Eric al Harp said, Jay, 2510 02:25:27.360 --> 02:25:29.959 I'm Orthodox. A Catholic asked me what the difference between 2511 02:25:30.040 --> 02:25:34.760 procession and inspiration is, and that that ultimately our distinctions 2512 02:25:35.399 --> 02:25:39.319 in the hypostasis collapses into meaninglessness because we can't define 2513 02:25:39.399 --> 02:25:40.079 these terms. 2514 02:25:41.319 --> 02:25:45.680 Yeah, but this is missing that this is actually his 2515 02:25:45.840 --> 02:25:51.079 own Catholic church. In confirming Constantinople, I affirms the position 2516 02:25:51.200 --> 02:25:53.799 that we have as Orthodox, which is the Cappadocian position. 2517 02:25:54.319 --> 02:25:57.920 Cappadocian position is that we believe in a distinction between 2518 02:25:58.520 --> 02:26:02.479 generation and procession, because it's revealed that way. Basil says. 2519 02:26:02.879 --> 02:26:04.879 He says, what the distinction is, we do not know, 2520 02:26:04.959 --> 02:26:06.920 and we're not told, but that there is a distinction. 2521 02:26:07.079 --> 02:26:09.360 We do know, and the other way we know is 2522 02:26:09.399 --> 02:26:12.559 by what's called hyposthetic properties. So the father is the soul, 2523 02:26:12.680 --> 02:26:16.520 cause the son is generated and the spirit aspirated. Those 2524 02:26:16.559 --> 02:26:19.639 are the hypothetic properties that distinguish the persons. To the 2525 02:26:19.799 --> 02:26:25.319 attempt by Catholics to speculate about other ways to make distinctions, 2526 02:26:25.799 --> 02:26:28.600 we believe goes out of the balance of what's defined 2527 02:26:28.600 --> 02:26:30.000 at the second ect Medical Council. 2528 02:26:32.600 --> 02:26:35.000 That sound is pretty based. I don't know what you said, 2529 02:26:35.040 --> 02:26:39.319 but it is totally based. That's a sound by that 2530 02:26:39.399 --> 02:26:41.319 I took from a rabbi who was discussing the difference. 2531 02:26:41.399 --> 02:26:43.040 I wonder what that sound is. That's fine. 2532 02:26:44.840 --> 02:26:46.479 I took it out of context. Of course. He was 2533 02:26:46.559 --> 02:26:50.200 discussing how the Christian idea of original Senate the Jewish 2534 02:26:50.239 --> 02:26:52.520 idea are differ. But he was explaining it and saying, 2535 02:26:53.239 --> 02:26:55.520 you know, although we have disagreements, the Christian idea is 2536 02:26:55.600 --> 02:26:58.840 totally based on the Jewish idea as well, and we 2537 02:26:59.000 --> 02:27:02.079 know the same thing. But I thought, but he had 2538 02:27:02.120 --> 02:27:05.239 this odd, long pause after the word base, and I thought, hey, 2539 02:27:05.319 --> 02:27:10.799 that's perfect greeksy. I was talking about slavery. Okay, I'm 2540 02:27:10.799 --> 02:27:15.680 sorry for misrepresenting you. Okay, thanks, thanks. I don't know 2541 02:27:15.760 --> 02:27:21.680 what you meant though. So, Jeffrey Anderson Quran nine thirty, 2542 02:27:21.760 --> 02:27:23.920 what do you think about the idea that Mohammed conflated 2543 02:27:24.000 --> 02:27:27.360 Ezra and Elijah, given the importance of Elijah in the 2544 02:27:27.440 --> 02:27:30.040 heralding of the Messiah, not just from the Tanah but 2545 02:27:30.719 --> 02:27:37.399 Jewish Cedar customs. Before Jay gives his thoughts on this, 2546 02:27:37.520 --> 02:27:39.680 I would say that I just have one problem with it, 2547 02:27:39.799 --> 02:27:43.079 which is that so in the Arabic text in chapter nine, 2548 02:27:43.120 --> 02:27:47.360 verse thirty, the name used as Uzair, which is then 2549 02:27:48.079 --> 02:27:52.639 thought to be Ezra. The Quran also mentions Elijah as 2550 02:27:53.399 --> 02:27:58.959 eli Jas in different, two different verses, which I know 2551 02:27:59.159 --> 02:28:02.000 very well because I used it quite a bit in 2552 02:28:02.079 --> 02:28:06.120 different discussions about how Islam is ignorant of the name 2553 02:28:06.200 --> 02:28:12.239 Yahweh because Elijah literally means my God is Yahweh. That's 2554 02:28:12.319 --> 02:28:14.360 my that's my problem with it. 2555 02:28:14.440 --> 02:28:16.000 But what do you think, j No, I was going 2556 02:28:16.040 --> 02:28:18.799 to say exactly the same thing that I don't know Arabic, 2557 02:28:18.879 --> 02:28:20.680 but I had it written in my notes that when 2558 02:28:20.719 --> 02:28:24.600 it says Ezra Hu's air. And you had that great 2559 02:28:25.079 --> 02:28:27.319 clip where you pointed out that Daniel was ignorant of 2560 02:28:27.360 --> 02:28:29.680 what the word Elijah means. 2561 02:28:30.040 --> 02:28:36.799 Oh, yeah, it's funny because he never actually he never 2562 02:28:36.959 --> 02:28:40.280 got back to the topic on that. Yeah, when he 2563 02:28:40.319 --> 02:28:42.360 does that, it's just it's a clear sign that he 2564 02:28:42.680 --> 02:28:44.719 simply doesn't know how to answer. 2565 02:28:45.680 --> 02:28:48.479 And it's incapable of admitting any error, which. 2566 02:28:48.319 --> 02:28:53.079 Is exactly exactly serendipitous. Shark, did you see the Christian 2567 02:28:53.120 --> 02:28:56.600 guy that wrote a Christian Quran in Arabic? Shabi Earlie 2568 02:28:56.639 --> 02:28:58.760 said it wasn't equivalent since it didn't claim to be 2569 02:28:58.879 --> 02:28:59.360 from God. 2570 02:29:02.920 --> 02:29:04.840 Well that's what you need, right, Like if you just 2571 02:29:04.920 --> 02:29:06.840 say that this book's better than the other books and 2572 02:29:06.920 --> 02:29:10.280 it's from God, that's that's what was missing. 2573 02:29:10.959 --> 02:29:15.280 Yeah, yeah, I I had even I worked a little 2574 02:29:15.319 --> 02:29:18.200 bit with chat GPT to make it right versus in 2575 02:29:18.280 --> 02:29:20.840 the style of the Quran, and was quite quite okay, 2576 02:29:21.840 --> 02:29:23.879 I did. I did all kinds of things like write 2577 02:29:24.920 --> 02:29:29.159 write a chapter about Chinese food in the style of 2578 02:29:29.280 --> 02:29:35.000 Kura one fourteen. Yeah, uh, and it's pretty good. It's 2579 02:29:35.000 --> 02:29:35.440 pretty good. 2580 02:29:35.959 --> 02:29:38.879 But yeah, was there a bat in the suit or 2581 02:29:38.920 --> 02:29:39.760 a fly in the suit? 2582 02:29:40.559 --> 02:29:46.200 I should have should want in the fly suit? Make 2583 02:29:46.319 --> 02:29:50.639 a chapter about the about Chinese food with both a 2584 02:29:50.799 --> 02:29:54.760 fly and a bat in the style of Kara fourteen. 2585 02:29:57.719 --> 02:29:58.159 I like it. 2586 02:30:00.920 --> 02:30:04.479 All right. Thanks everybody for watching. This was a fantastic stream. 2587 02:30:04.479 --> 02:30:06.959 Thank you so much, Jay for joining me. Sure anytime 2588 02:30:07.280 --> 02:30:10.000 I want to definitely follow up and jo another live 2589 02:30:10.079 --> 02:30:14.760 stream about religion and Christianity in general, anything else you 2590 02:30:14.879 --> 02:30:19.079 want to add, and also quickly where people can find you. 2591 02:30:19.239 --> 02:30:22.239 Once again, No, it was a great chat. I appreciate 2592 02:30:22.280 --> 02:30:24.040 you having me. I always enjoy the conversation with you. 2593 02:30:24.079 --> 02:30:26.239 Always learned from you, So anybody I learned from a 2594 02:30:26.319 --> 02:30:30.079 love to have conversation and joke around with you. Yeah, 2595 02:30:30.079 --> 02:30:31.920 thanks for having me. You can find me over on 2596 02:30:32.000 --> 02:30:37.159 my channel JADR on YouTube, Jay's Analysis website. You can 2597 02:30:37.239 --> 02:30:40.600 find me on x Instagram. All of those TikTok under my. 2598 02:30:40.680 --> 02:30:45.719 Name fantastic, fantastic, awesome. God quickly read this one a 2599 02:30:45.799 --> 02:30:51.799 mitz a bag. Here's some of my shakels shakeles I 2600 02:30:51.920 --> 02:30:53.799 wasn't making. I was going to make a joke about shackles, 2601 02:30:53.799 --> 02:30:55.639 but I can't find my one shakelbule that I have 2602 02:30:58.079 --> 02:31:00.840 from someone somewhere in guys. By the way, I'm from 2603 02:31:00.920 --> 02:31:03.040 Jaytown and I actually got out looking for you in 2604 02:31:03.079 --> 02:31:06.479 the Old City. Unfortunately I didn't thank you for thank 2605 02:31:06.559 --> 02:31:09.360 you for the word of truth. What I was in 2606 02:31:09.479 --> 02:31:11.319 is we are lots of people said hey, I saw you. 2607 02:31:11.799 --> 02:31:15.440 Nobody actually texted me saying, hey, what's up. I see 2608 02:31:15.479 --> 02:31:19.799 you right now, let's meet up. It's very funny, but yeah, 2609 02:31:20.559 --> 02:31:24.079 all the best. I mean to thank you. All right, 2610 02:31:24.200 --> 02:31:29.879 thanks everyone for watching as always, have a fantastic day, 2611 02:31:30.559 --> 02:31:34.840 and I will end this with a wonderful message from 2612 02:31:35.120 --> 02:31:38.319 one of my favorite goats here once again, stay away. 2613 02:31:38.319 --> 02:31:38.879 From a slab