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Speaker 1: Hell, everybody, and welcome. This is the Apostate Profit. Uh.

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And today I am live with a very interesting guest,

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and that would be somebody who is professionally known as

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Randy Balls.

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Speaker 2: Uh.

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Speaker 1: How are you doing, Randy, Hey, I'm down here in charge. Yeah.

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Speaker 3: That's my mega, mega past megachurch pastor skit. So he

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threw me for a loop that. I wasn't expecting Randy

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Balls to come up to the surface of my altered personalities,

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but I'm going me over.

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Speaker 1: It was. It was a very very fun thing. I

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watched it several times. So yeah, uh, one video. I

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don't know if you made more of those, but.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, they're both. Yeah, I'll de send it. I'll see,

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I'll send you both to see which one.

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Speaker 1: Awesome, awesome sound everything okay, everything balanced? Everyone? Yes, good, okay, wonderful. Yeah,

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this was supposed to happen yesterday, but then it didn't happen.

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Had to move it to today, which is also kind

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of appropriate because the date today is a good day

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to talk about Islam.

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Speaker 4: Uh.

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Speaker 1: Some people call it an Islamic holiday. So here we

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are today, gathered talking about all that. Jay, I have

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to correct myself. You're not Randy Balls. We have to

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be serious with this whole conversation.

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Speaker 3: And you're not shake your booty, uh not today. He's

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the final boss of Islamic debater. So we need to

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we need to have a debate between Randy Balls and

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shake your booty.

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Speaker 1: That would be fantastic. That's a good idea. Yeah, you

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are Jay Dyer, and you have recently been having uh

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interesting debates, some some very very big ones that I

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reviewed here on this channel that lots of people have seen.

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I think your debate together with Sam Shimun against the

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two pedophiles. I think that has like over over a

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million views or so.

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Speaker 3: Right, it's around nine hundred thousand on Twitter, a couple

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of hundred thousand on Rumble, and then eight hundred thousand

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on YouTube. So yeah, overall, it's it's up there.

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Speaker 1: Wow, very very nice. And I saw it. And the

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thing is, I mean you you guys did a fantastic

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job during the debate. The other side looked quite pathetic

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and I don't know, it's it's even even Muslims were

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conceding pretty much. When you look at the average response,

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the feedback from audiences that the Muslim side did not

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do a good job defending their beliefs. So it was

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a very very good combination to watch you and Sam Shimun.

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And yeah, but but I have some problems with some

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of the things that you said, and I basically want

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to confront you on your misrepresentations of Islam, and uh,

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I want to correct correct you on all that. So

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first off, how about we start by you just telling

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us who you are, where we can find you, and

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why we should listen to you.

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Speaker 3: Uh. Yeah, my name is Jake and the Muslim metaphysician.

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You can find me over. The problem with rit fun

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is that with he debates, he lies a little bit.

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Speaker 1: So the funny thing was that it was pretty good

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man that was.

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Speaker 3: Actually supposed to be Daniel and Jake, and then Jake

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so suddenly had the Internet go out right before the debate.

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Speaker 1: Oh how does that happen?

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Speaker 3: Weird timing. But then Ijah stuff though, which is funny

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because I didn't think they actually were on the exact

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same page. Then on Jake, I mean e jaws, but

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I guess they pretended to be you know, buddy buddy

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for the sake of the debate. But whatever, Yeah, it was.

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It was a wild debate overall. I think it went

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pretty good for for our side. To look if you

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read the comments over on the Fresh and Fit channel,

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I was kind of blown away at the comments. I

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thought we'd have a lot more like balance between you know,

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because the Muslims go to the comments are always like

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they're champion and cheerlead no matter what happened in the debate.

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But I mean the comments are just like ninety nine

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percent that you know, terrible for the for the side

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of it is. But anyway, so yeah, I'm Jay Dire.

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I do a lot of debates. I do a lot

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of geopolitical analysis. I do film analysis, written a few

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books on that, books on philosophy, host The Fourth Hour

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of He Who Cannot Be Named every Friday, done that

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for four years. Yeah, so that's what I do.

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Speaker 1: Very very very very nice. You know what's funny until

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you just mentioned that it was supposed to be Jake

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the Muslim Metaphysician, but then it was it just for

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some reason in my mind, I was totally remembering it

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the wrong way, and I thought you had a debate

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with Donally Kikichu and Jake the Muslim Metaphysician. Despite the

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fact that I watched the whole debate twice and also

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commented on it, which is very, very funny. It might

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have to do with the fact that I had my

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interactions with Jake, had discussions with him, was supposed to

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debate him. Eventually he backed out and blocked me. But

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it just to come in in his place was just

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a very very dumb move. I don't know who organized this,

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who came up with him as an alternative, but at

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least Jake could a little bit by being coherent, you know,

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and speaking the same language appeal to audiences and you know,

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I don't know, get get some kind of popularity, even

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if the stuff that he says is completely nonsense. But

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it is just he's not likable. He he's a little weasel,

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incredibly disrespectful for no reason, very dishonest person, and he's

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on record on audio record calling somebody a wet bag

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piece of shit in a debate about Christianity.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it was an odd choice, but you know, I

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think if I recall in the DMS, originally it was

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going to be they wanted a good job, so and

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I don't know who who was going to be, is

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Mohammed a job and somebody And of course he wouldn't

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do it, and then he backed out of the Samshumuon thing,

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and so there's a lot of backing out going on

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on that side. I don't know what they're so worried about,

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but in the case of Jake, I think the pattern

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I've noticed is that Jake will really only debate when

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it's something relating to these really sort of abstract metaphysical topics.

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He won't go anywhere near the Quran, you will go

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anywhere near comparison to biblical texts. And I think he

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kind of, maybe even halfway will admit he doesn't really

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know that stuff. So for him, it's this sort of

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pseudo philosophical and ever, yeah.

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Speaker 1: It's it's a funny thing. He wanted to to press

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me on having a debate about the existence of God.

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I said, look, when I joined you guys, I had

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that debate only because I wanted to give you guys

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what you want and then further have discussions about Islam.

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How about we have a discussion about Islam. How about

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we'd have a debate on Islam. He never would accept that.

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Eventually I pressed him to accept it, and even then,

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just when we were about to have the debate in

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a few days. He made some dumb excuse about my

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post about Israel or something like that. He was like,

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you're horrible, I'm going to block you, and then it

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blocked me. And he did the same thing with lots

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of other people. It's just that.

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Speaker 3: With Sam too, or they were going to debate and

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he bled, oh, I've decided suddenly that you're too immoral

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for me to debate and block.

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Speaker 1: Me exactly exactly, And it's not like we're doing something

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different from whatever we have done for years. It doesn't

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make any sense. Yeah, but let's come to your your

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impression of Islam altogether. Of course, these are very interesting people.

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It's just a coincidence that they happened to have these

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similar personalities. Probably nothing to do with Islam. But you've

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had debates about Islam with Daniel Now, with a Jazz

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and with other people online. You have been hosting debates

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on your own channel, which I've seen, which seems to

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be doing quite well. We had conversations you and I

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about Islam in the past. What is your current impression

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of Islam and how did it change over time?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I would say if you go back eight or

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ten years ago, I knew a lot about Christian theology,

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and I know a lot about the inter historical disputes

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amongst Christian groups and whatnot church history, but I didn't

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really know much about Islam at all, and so I

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don't even remember how the Islami debates started happening. I

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think I had a couple of friends, the guys that

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run Orthodox sha Hata. They were like, hey, they were

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part of the discord. They said, why don't you start

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debating Muslims because we've got a lot of Muslims coming

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into the UK, come into Europe. It's really changing the

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face of Europe. So this might actually be the future.

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Because I spent so much time debating Roman Catholics so

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and Protestant So I think the first debate we did

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was kind of a so called debate. It was it

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was an no Zombga four, and then it was Paul Williams,

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and then it was Shabiri Le, then it was Shaike

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azer rashid Uh, and then it was I'm saying the

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big the big name, big name Muslims. And then it

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was Daniel and then Jake, and then it Jaws and Daniel.

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So uh, it's kind in the Muslim lantern. So it's

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kind of a snowball thing that wasn't really a planned

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but in that time. And I still want to call

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myself an expert on Islam, but I've learned a lot.

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I've learned a lot from you learned a lot from

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from Sam and many other people. My impression now, maybe

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say compared to ten years ago, is that it's a

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lot more of a cobbled together hodgepodge of varying traditions

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and ideas, and it's a lot more goofy than I

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originally thought I would have assumed, you know, ten years ago, well,

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they've got you know, Abacina, and they've got you know,

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even Seen, and they've got these high minded philosopher guys

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that people have heard AVOs. But then when you really

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get into, you know, what the texts of the Qur'an

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and these hadiths are all about, I think it becomes

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more and more kind of silly. And you notice the

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sort of outright contradictions, especially all of the reliance on

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prior textual traditions from Judaism and from Christianity. The more

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that you know those texts, and then the more that

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you see the chronic claims and texts, the more you

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see kind of how just cobbled together contradictory. So in summation,

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I would say, now I see it as kind of

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the perfect cult engineer to doup the Arab mind, honestly,

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and so I see I see it as a mix

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of Gnosticism. I see it as a mix of Talmudic ideas.

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I see it as a mix of Christian texts, particularly

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arian and Historian Christianity. I see it as a borrowing

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even from Greek philosophy. I had a recent discussion with

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a couple of people from the Shia tradition, and from

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their argumentation, the the guy was literally saying, yeah, everything

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that's in the Koran is ultimately neoplatonism, but that's not

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from the Neoplatonists, is from the Qoran. In other words,

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it's it's like a rip off. It's like we rip

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off the Bible, but it's from the Koran, not from

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the Bible. We rip off the Torah, but it's from

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the Qoran, not from the Court. We rip off the

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Greek philosophers, but it's actually from the Koran, not from

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the Greek. As you see what I'm saying, there's a

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pattern here of copy paste, copy paste, copy paste, copy paste,

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put this thing together in a book, the thing, and

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then but it's not from anything before. It's it's this,

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this is the real true origin.

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Speaker 1: That's very very coreedient, right. It's it's like if I

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write a book today and say that and claim that

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it is actually from Allah who visited me after one

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four hundred years to tell me that Muhamma did a

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completely different message which was unfortunately distorted and perverted by

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the Muslims who followed after him, and here is what

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he tells me. And then I just write a bunch

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of stuff that I based on on the Quran, on

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different sources, but claim that this is all completely totally original.

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It's it is kind of ridiculous. There is a there,

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there is something that you said which is which I

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can resonate with it. That's that's usually how I describe Islam,

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like it's coupled together with from different from different traditions

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and sources and all that. I mean, over the years,

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I have pretty much I would say, come to the

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to the to the to the idea, to the conclusion

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and the argument that that Islam is basically a a

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polytheistic religion, and culture that came out of a polytheistic

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pagan Arab region. But then because Muhammad was apparently so

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much you know, he he looked up to Christians and Jews.

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Initially he wanted to adopt their beliefs and their traditions

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as much as much as possible, but then adopted things

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that he never really understood and adopted misunderstandings, and aside

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from that, also adopted stories about For example, I'm not

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sure if you if you have come across the whole

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narrative of Hul Karnaine in the Quran that this is

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a character named little Karnane. He is. He is identified

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as Alexander the Great. So the Quran mentions Alexander the

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Great uh as little Karnaan, which means the too horned one.

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And this just happens because some people will come to

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Muhammad and ask him about a little Karnate and he's like, uh,

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I'll get back to you. So something happens then in

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the in the meantime, he gets his information about this

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Alexander the Great that he doesn't know much about. And

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then he comes back and he starts reciting revelations from

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Allah about how Litul Karnate was a was was a

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very mighty person guided by Allah, and he went to

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the very west of the world and to the very east,

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and he saw the sun setting in a muddy spring

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and saw other people that the sun was rising, uh,

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you know above, and they had no protection against it.

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And I don't know pretty pretty much that he was

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a servant of Allah and a good guy, which is

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just a very strange thing, because Alexander the Great was

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anything but a good guy in any morningstic sense.

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Speaker 3: He was.

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Speaker 1: He was a a syncretic polytheist guy who declared himself God,

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uh yeah, which.

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Speaker 3: Is actually the I mean, even if you're a liberal.

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A lot of people think the Book of Daniel is

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talking about the Greeks in that time period, particularly Alexander

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and then his his one of his generals, Antiochus apefans Is,

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who defiles the Jewish temple during the Macabean period. So

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that's again another irony that you know, the Biblical Revelation

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describes that as a pagan, polytheistic Alexander antiochis culture. Very

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odd they would be described as as a monotheis.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I think you should look into that. It's in

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chapter eighteen of the Quran that has Sura cuff that

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has an account of the Seven Sleepers, which is also

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taken from from Christians. And then after that it goes

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into the whole Alexander the Great story, which is which

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is very very funny. We even have a what's his name?

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Some Italian ex isis jihadiest guy who when he was

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in prison, learned about the Alexander romance and old myths

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about Alexander the Great and then he noticed, wait a minute,

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this sounds oddly similar to what I read in the Quran.

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And then he finds out that these stories came before

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the Quran, and then he thinks this does not make sense,

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so he ends up leaving Islam. This hardcoregi hotis to

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it's I think Antonio something, sar Antonio char Antonio something

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like that.

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Speaker 3: So listen to the question I want to I want

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to ask you because this is a pattern I've noticed,

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And when this comes up in the live stream debates

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that we do, I'm never actually sure what they what

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they actually think like. It seems to be the case

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that they either don't recognize or care that many of

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these stories, like if you read the Gabriel site, Reynolds book,

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he lists about I don't know, four or five different

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texts that were like sudabergrafa or gnostic texts that appear

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in different forms in different ways in the Quran. And

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I'm what I'm wondering is like, do they not admit

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that these things came before or do they think that no,

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it doesn't even matter that it came before, because like

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when I was talking to that guy about neoplatonism and

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he's like, no, well, Lecorn is basically teaching platonism, And

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I'm like, but wouldn't neoplatonism be where the Quran is

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getting that if that's the case, and it's like, no,

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it's actually new to the Kurn or Greek atomism, right,

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a lot of the Suns are atomists. And it's like, well,

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you know the Greeks taught atomism. No, but it's in

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the Koran.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, well it's the thinking evolves evolved to very

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much over time. Today. Generally, the response that you get

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when you point out that that's lots of these things

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come to the Quran from prior sources. What are these

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sources are actually correct on these things are not? Uh,

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they will ignore your explanation and then you know, bring

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an alternative explanation, or simply argue that Allat knows best,

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and he's he's the one who sent the Quran, and

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he knows what he's talking about. It's not for us

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to question. This is, for example, something that's happened when

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I I made a video of talking about the seven

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Sleepers narrative and all that and how the Quran twisted

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and how if we accept that the seven sleeper story

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is authentic and that the Koran acknowledges to it, then

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we have to accept that the that the Triune God

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is the true God and Christian true. And then when

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I do that, they they start it starts getting completely

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fallacious about how this It doesn't have to go back

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to the Christian story. It might be a different story. Uh,

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it might be the true story. It might be that

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the Christians took it, you know, wrongfully from somewhere else.

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It was actually a real story about something good, and

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in the end we should not question it because Alano's best.

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This is usually the some of the thoughts, some of

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the responses that will that they will, that they will

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give to these things. Similar to Alexander the Great, initially

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within the first centuries, Muslims acknowledged generally that the references

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were going where about Alexander the Great. It has become

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the new thing lately more recently, to say, no, it's

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not Alexander the Grade. It is somebody else. We don't

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know who it is, and we can't know because it

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is not specified, But it's probably not Alexander the Great,

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given the revelations that we have now about who he

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actually was. But this is just the thing, like the

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understanding develops and is corrupted by Muslims as they further

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understand how problematic it actually is what they are presenting

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to us, such as that the grind takes stories inappropriately,

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or ideas inappropriately, or twists stories into being. There's lots

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we can talk about. Well, what do you think going forward?

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Speaker 3: You to move on one other question on that topic.

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I forgot to mention when I was talking about influences,

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the pre Islamic Arab paganism is also, I think pretty

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clearly obviously an influence. And I mean I'd heard people

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say that maybe ten years ago, but I never really

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looked into that. But I do think that's there within

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the tradition. I mean, you know, icons are idolatry, but

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you can kiss this black stone and it's not idolatry.

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So it's sort of it's it's a double standard. And

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why is it not all all Josha, Well, because it

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says so on the Hot Deaths that you can do it.

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So yeah, I think there's a lot of double standards,

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a lot of inconsistency. So my question to you would be,

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do you think and I think we talked about this

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last time we were we were discussing and you were

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talking about the killing all the pigs Hudith, do you

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think that it's a situation where you you had and

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I know we're kind of kind of speculating because we

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don't exactly know what was going on, but is it

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Is it a situation where you think Muhammad was like

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just sort of out of it and was just being

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influenced by his epilepsy and seizures, or do you think

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that he was really kind of like or maybe maybe

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even him and some of his crew, like, do you

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think it was a situation where they were trying to

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put together a religion that they could manipulate for warlord purposes,

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you know, for wealth purpose, for all kinds of purposes.

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Because even David Wood's recent video where he was talking

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about the places in the Chrome where it says, well,

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the Jews have the Hebrew Revelation and the Christians have

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a revelation in their tongue, this is the revelation for

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you Arab people. So it's it's almost like it was

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initially intended to be directed towards the Arab peoples as

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their version. Maybe that was early in the you know,

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Muhammed's campaigns or something like that, before it turns into

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you know, this is actually a worldwide conquest.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, there there is two interesting topics here in

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two very very deep topics actually to go into, but

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one one which is the latter that you brought up,

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also based on what David Wood mentioned. So Mohammed initially

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did start out as merely a guy who is who

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is sent by the same God, also sent or revealed

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the Gospel in the Torah, as the Quran says, and

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Mohammad really did look up the Jews and Christians and

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wanted to adopt their beliefs and ideas and claim that

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he comes from the same God. But the thing is,

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if you analyze the Quran chronologically, the Quran barely ever

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even touches on Jews and Christians within the first ten

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years or so, until Mohammad goes flees his pagan environment

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in Mecca and goes to Medina, where he then encounters

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large Jewish tribes that basically builds the city, and as

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he interacts with them, the Quran suddenly starts focusing on

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Jews and Christians and their stories and beliefs. So it

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seems that the Quran's content is very very much influenced

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by whatever Mohammad is, where he's at, what is around him,

398
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what he interacts with, what is currently important to Mohammad's context,

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And initially he approaches them in a good way, like Jews, Christians,

400
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what's up, I'm just like you guys, you know, yeah,

401
00:24:06,079 --> 00:24:10,079
same team. Let's join together. And it even proposes in

402
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the beginning to the Jews and Christians let us come

403
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together to an agreement that there is no God but

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a line so on. But as he then finds out

405
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that the Jews don't really respect him at all and

406
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think actually that he's ridiculous and full of scrap, he

407
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starts getting more and more angry at them. Then he

408
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develops this idea that the Christians. The Jews are bad,

409
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but the Christians they are cool, They're good. Then the

410
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Christians start projecting him and then he's like, Okay, Christians

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are bad too, Christians will go to Hell. So but

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along those while having those developments, he simply takes. He

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absorbs whatever is, whatever he hears, and whatever is given

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to him. There is a I would say it is.

415
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It is quite mixed. What his motive is, what his

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reasoning is when he gets his his stories and beliefs

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into his own religion. I would say that there is

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very strong evidence that suggests that he had that he

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had some sort of some sort of epilepsy, that he

420
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had hallucinations. UH. Their early narratives that he would he

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would come back from seeing the angel Gabriel, and then

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he would be terrified and he would fall on the

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ground and start shaking and making loud noises and sweating.

424
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They would have to cover him up and he would

425
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make loud, snorting noises when he would get a revelation

426
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from Allah, which you know, sounds oddly like UH, a

427
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form of epilepsy. But it could very well be that

428
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he was actually deceived by his own by his own hallucinations,

429
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by his own insanities, and that he actually did believe

430
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that he was getting revelations from from from Allah. But

431
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he was also convinced by other people around him that

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you know, who helped him basically shame the narrative that

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he was getting from his from his from his Gibriel character.

434
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You have, for example, in the Quran multiple times people

435
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accusing him from taking stories from certain people around him,

436
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and they call him the ear, by which they mean

437
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that he just listens to somebody who comes to him

438
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and then takes whatever that person says and then includes

439
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it in his in his into his own religion, as

440
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if they were original stories. It's very hard to speculate

441
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and to figure out what exactly his motive was. But

442
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there are also instances, for example, where his dear friend

443
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and second Khalif Omar openly says in the Hadith he

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says that Allah agreed with me on three occasions. He says,

445
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this is a follower of the close follower of Muhammad.

446
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For example, he suggests when he sees that Muhammed's wives

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go to the bathroom out in the desert somewhere, he

448
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repeatedly tells him, I see you, I see you, you

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should be hiding very creepy. And then he goes to

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Mohamed and says he goes to Mohammed and says, Mohammed,

451
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cover your wife's up. They need to be covered up.

452
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And eventually Mohammed is like, okay, fine, and then he

453
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receives a revelation in which Allah says that they should

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not go outside anymore unless necessary, and that they should

455
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be covered up. And Omar goes, oh, good, Allah agrees

456
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with me. It seems that you know that these people

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around Mohammed have an influence on what Allah reveals to Mohammed,

458
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and Mohammad also does. And it's hard to speculate always

459
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whether Mohammad was deliberately making things up, whether others were

460
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in on it, or whether he was self deceived.

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Speaker 3: Well, great parallel. I'm sure you've heard a million times,

462
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but you know it very much reminds me of Mormonism

463
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in the way Mormonism operated with you know, Joseph Smith,

464
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Brigham Young, you kind of have this inner core of

465
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the original Mormon crew. You know, they have these new revelations.

466
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They say that the prior revelation is fine except when

467
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it contradicts the new revelation. So it's really just the

468
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same circle that we find with the Islamic dilemma for Islam,

469
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for Muslims, you know, you've got the polygamy, you've got

470
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the weird polytheistic elements. In Mormonism. I mean, there's a

471
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lot of parallels there, but the patterns are always that

472
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you look back to the previous revelation only when it

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confirms the new revelation. And again in the case of

474
00:28:33,039 --> 00:28:36,400
Joseph Smith, I think there's multitudes of influences as well,

475
00:28:37,079 --> 00:28:39,200
and he seems to be similar to Muhammad as well.

476
00:28:39,240 --> 00:28:41,880
And what you're describing that he kind of hears all

477
00:28:42,000 --> 00:28:45,039
kinds of different things, because there's this story that Joseph

478
00:28:45,039 --> 00:28:47,839
Smith went to all the different denominations, and so he

479
00:28:47,960 --> 00:28:50,599
hears all these different stories and then he decides they're

480
00:28:50,599 --> 00:28:53,039
all wrong. He goes in the woods and praise, and

481
00:28:53,119 --> 00:28:56,079
then this angel appears to him, just like the angel

482
00:28:56,119 --> 00:28:59,160
appearing to Muhammad. And then there's a new revelation based

483
00:28:59,160 --> 00:29:02,119
on these new texts, and only the Book of Mormon

484
00:29:02,279 --> 00:29:05,079
is really the infallible text, and everything else has to

485
00:29:05,119 --> 00:29:07,880
be judged by it. So I mean patterns are the

486
00:29:07,960 --> 00:29:11,039
same for most cults. Actually, I would say, a lot

487
00:29:11,079 --> 00:29:13,599
of cults. But I think if you look at Mormonism

488
00:29:14,160 --> 00:29:18,480
just from that cultural perspective, it's really geared towards you know,

489
00:29:18,839 --> 00:29:25,400
eighteen hundreds, you know, prairie minded people moving west Islam

490
00:29:25,720 --> 00:29:30,240
very much oriented towards you know, seventh century Arabs. And

491
00:29:30,920 --> 00:29:32,720
what my next question to you would be, would that

492
00:29:32,799 --> 00:29:38,519
explain the seeming contradictions about what Mohammad says about Christians

493
00:29:38,559 --> 00:29:41,680
and Jews, because it seems like at times it sounds

494
00:29:41,720 --> 00:29:45,119
like we're all people of the book. We all are fine.

495
00:29:45,319 --> 00:29:48,759
Let the Jews judge by the Torah. Christians can go

496
00:29:48,880 --> 00:29:51,680
judge by their revelation. But then later we get this,

497
00:29:52,440 --> 00:29:55,440
but also, if you're a Trinitarian, you're going to hell fire, right.

498
00:29:56,119 --> 00:30:00,839
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah. I actually put together a list of Quran

499
00:30:01,000 --> 00:30:05,799
verses about all Quran verses that address Christians or that

500
00:30:05,960 --> 00:30:10,920
mentioned Christians directly in chronological order, and you can observe

501
00:30:10,960 --> 00:30:14,400
a very very clear pattern there at the beginning, very

502
00:30:15,200 --> 00:30:19,599
very peaceful and you know, reconciliatory, and then it gets

503
00:30:19,680 --> 00:30:22,720
more like, okay, you are wrong, but we are still okay,

504
00:30:23,319 --> 00:30:26,640
you are totally wrong. You should follow your book instead

505
00:30:26,640 --> 00:30:31,680
of making up things until Finally, the final chapter of

506
00:30:31,759 --> 00:30:35,799
the Quran in chronological order is that is chapter nine,

507
00:30:36,160 --> 00:30:40,559
where the Quran completely shifts to Christianity is unacceptable, it

508
00:30:40,640 --> 00:30:43,359
will not be accepted. You have to become Muslims or else.

509
00:30:44,079 --> 00:30:48,240
And then finally you have chapter nine, verse twenty nine

510
00:30:48,359 --> 00:30:51,240
and thirty, where it says fight those who do not

511
00:30:51,319 --> 00:30:53,480
believe in Aligned as Messenger, who do not adopt the

512
00:30:53,519 --> 00:30:57,680
religion of truth, meaning Islam, among those who you know,

513
00:30:57,839 --> 00:31:00,839
among the people of the scripture. So Jews Christians who

514
00:31:00,920 --> 00:31:04,240
do not adopt Islam are now declared enemies and are

515
00:31:04,279 --> 00:31:07,440
supposed to be fought and subjugated and humiliated. And then

516
00:31:07,480 --> 00:31:11,519
it further says that that this is because of their

517
00:31:11,720 --> 00:31:15,279
of their false beliefs, of their their wicked and false

518
00:31:15,359 --> 00:31:18,200
and corrupt beliefs, and Allah will punish them and curse

519
00:31:18,240 --> 00:31:22,759
them and so on. So that is indeed the explanation

520
00:31:22,920 --> 00:31:26,200
for it. There are some people who, of course choose

521
00:31:26,319 --> 00:31:30,559
to point out the good verses and leave out the padlines.

522
00:31:30,920 --> 00:31:32,759
But if you read it all in context, it is

523
00:31:32,920 --> 00:31:36,720
just a development of Muhammed's perception of Jews and Christians.

524
00:31:37,400 --> 00:31:39,880
Initially he thought they were okay, then later as they

525
00:31:39,920 --> 00:31:42,160
didn't accept him and saw it the ignorance in him.

526
00:31:42,279 --> 00:31:44,880
He turned more and more against them and declared war

527
00:31:44,960 --> 00:31:45,240
on them.

528
00:31:45,599 --> 00:31:47,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, you have people on the left a lot of

529
00:31:47,240 --> 00:31:49,559
times that think that, you know, Islam is their ally.

530
00:31:49,759 --> 00:31:52,119
They only pick out the verses that are early on,

531
00:31:52,319 --> 00:31:54,119
like you're talking about well, look see it had a

532
00:31:54,160 --> 00:31:55,680
guy come on the stream the other day and he's like,

533
00:31:55,720 --> 00:31:59,000
you're totally wrong. Islam has no you know, anti Christian,

534
00:31:59,039 --> 00:32:02,680
anti Jewish animus. It's only conciliatory. And I'm like, you're

535
00:32:02,720 --> 00:32:05,319
just using the ones the tacks that are early on,

536
00:32:05,480 --> 00:32:09,039
you're not using the other text. So yeah, I think

537
00:32:09,079 --> 00:32:11,960
that's a But again, that's why it's a it's a

538
00:32:12,119 --> 00:32:18,440
very crafty book because it allows let's say you're a

539
00:32:18,559 --> 00:32:22,319
coliaf in the Middle Ages sometime or something, and let's

540
00:32:22,319 --> 00:32:24,920
say you want to go to war against Christians or Jews.

541
00:32:25,359 --> 00:32:28,240
Well you've got ready made passages that would support going

542
00:32:28,319 --> 00:32:30,920
to war. Let's say you're in a political situation where

543
00:32:30,960 --> 00:32:32,839
you need peace, Well you've got ready made passages you

544
00:32:32,880 --> 00:32:35,599
can cite about peace. So it's a it's useful for

545
00:32:35,880 --> 00:32:36,960
what's a nesser at the.

546
00:32:37,000 --> 00:32:42,119
Speaker 1: Time, exactly exactly, And they used this all this was

547
00:32:42,160 --> 00:32:45,880
always historically very important just to put on the screen.

548
00:32:45,960 --> 00:32:50,400
Here the verse nine nine, which is I think my

549
00:32:50,559 --> 00:32:53,440
go to verse when it comes to explaining the Islamic

550
00:32:53,559 --> 00:32:58,920
stance on non believers, specifically Jews and Christians. There are others,

551
00:32:59,000 --> 00:33:03,240
such as ninety eight six, which says explicitly that Jews

552
00:33:03,319 --> 00:33:07,400
and Christians and polytheists who don't believe in Islam are

553
00:33:07,480 --> 00:33:10,000
the worst of creatures and Muslims are the best of creatures.

554
00:33:10,480 --> 00:33:14,279
But here nine to twenty nine says fight against those

555
00:33:14,319 --> 00:33:16,200
who do not believe in a law or in the

556
00:33:16,279 --> 00:33:19,400
last Day, and who do not consider unlawful what aligned

557
00:33:19,400 --> 00:33:21,759
as messenger have made unlawful, and who do not adopt

558
00:33:21,880 --> 00:33:24,839
the religion of truth that is Islam from those who

559
00:33:24,880 --> 00:33:27,799
were given the Scripture. So Jews and Christians, if they

560
00:33:27,839 --> 00:33:32,680
don't adopt Islam, fight them, fight until they give the jizia,

561
00:33:32,799 --> 00:33:37,440
which is protection money willingly while they are humbled. And

562
00:33:37,559 --> 00:33:40,000
there are people who will twist what jiza actually is

563
00:33:40,079 --> 00:33:41,759
and they say, oh, it's just a tax man, just

564
00:33:41,799 --> 00:33:45,319
a tax But it's quite clear historically jisea is specifically

565
00:33:45,359 --> 00:33:49,160
for disbelievers. It is supposed to be taken from those

566
00:33:49,319 --> 00:33:52,119
who want to live as subjects of Muslims and not

567
00:33:52,240 --> 00:33:55,039
convert to Islam. If they fail to give it, then

568
00:33:55,039 --> 00:33:58,000
they are fair game. So this is basically protection money.

569
00:33:58,359 --> 00:34:00,559
That's literally what it is.

570
00:34:01,079 --> 00:34:01,200
Speaker 4: Yea.

571
00:34:02,000 --> 00:34:05,000
Speaker 3: And further, I had this one noted, what was the

572
00:34:05,079 --> 00:34:06,519
other t actually said something.

573
00:34:07,799 --> 00:34:08,119
Speaker 4: Oh.

574
00:34:11,559 --> 00:34:15,480
Speaker 1: Ninety eight verse six, that's what I mentioned, which would

575
00:34:15,519 --> 00:34:19,400
be this one. Indeed, they who disbelieve among the people

576
00:34:19,440 --> 00:34:21,320
of the Scripture and the polytheists will be in the

577
00:34:21,440 --> 00:34:24,519
fire of hell abiding eternally they're in. Those are the

578
00:34:24,599 --> 00:34:28,199
worst of creatures. And it further goes on saying, indeed,

579
00:34:28,239 --> 00:34:31,199
they who know, indeed, they who have believed in don

580
00:34:31,239 --> 00:34:34,079
Wright's deeds, those are the best of creatures. And if

581
00:34:34,119 --> 00:34:36,719
you read the whole chapter, which is a very short

582
00:34:36,840 --> 00:34:42,440
chapter within context, it does indeed talk about those Christians

583
00:34:42,480 --> 00:34:45,599
and Jews who refused to accept Muhammad as true messenger.

584
00:34:46,960 --> 00:34:50,880
So that's basically what this is about, that they were

585
00:34:50,960 --> 00:34:56,280
cool until Muhammad arrived. Yeah right, yeah, yeah, so yeah,

586
00:34:56,840 --> 00:35:05,199
what But enough about being so terribly islamophobic. What do

587
00:35:05,320 --> 00:35:09,679
you think with all your interactions that you've had, I'm

588
00:35:09,719 --> 00:35:13,000
sure you also had some good impressions of Islam. So

589
00:35:13,639 --> 00:35:17,599
what do you think is actually a good Islamic argument

590
00:35:17,719 --> 00:35:18,280
that you've heard?

591
00:35:20,800 --> 00:35:24,320
Speaker 3: Hmmm, that is a tough question, I know, do you

592
00:35:24,440 --> 00:35:29,360
mean the best, which opponent performed the best, or what

593
00:35:29,639 --> 00:35:31,719
is if I were to steal man Islam their best

594
00:35:31,880 --> 00:35:32,880
argument overall.

595
00:35:33,960 --> 00:35:37,000
Speaker 1: The second one or yeah? Yeah, So something that that

596
00:35:37,320 --> 00:35:43,079
sounds kind of strong ish or strongest given the standards

597
00:35:43,079 --> 00:35:48,760
of Islam, and that is actually a good argument for Islam.

598
00:35:50,960 --> 00:35:53,000
Speaker 3: I don't think it's a good argument, but I think

599
00:35:53,039 --> 00:35:58,119
it's the most successful argument. Probably is the fact that

600
00:35:59,199 --> 00:36:05,079
they will heal to the assumption of generic Unitarianism and

601
00:36:05,159 --> 00:36:09,000
the idea that, well, we know, the Shamas is one God.

602
00:36:10,400 --> 00:36:14,519
Did an Abraham worship one God? Jesus believed in one God?

603
00:36:14,679 --> 00:36:18,599
And so I think that's the most successful argument. I

604
00:36:18,679 --> 00:36:23,039
don't because the Trinity is a complex doctrine. I don't

605
00:36:23,039 --> 00:36:24,920
think it's a good argument. I think that when you

606
00:36:25,599 --> 00:36:28,199
look at the texts, it's very easy to see that

607
00:36:28,320 --> 00:36:32,000
the Torah, the prophets they do teach more than a

608
00:36:32,159 --> 00:36:35,679
bearer generic Unitarian deity. But I think that for most

609
00:36:35,719 --> 00:36:38,159
people who are not very well studying the scriptures, they

610
00:36:38,199 --> 00:36:39,960
don't know their Bible very well. That can be a

611
00:36:40,079 --> 00:36:43,320
very convincing argument, and then they always try to sort

612
00:36:43,320 --> 00:36:45,639
of put us on the defensive as if we have,

613
00:36:46,480 --> 00:36:50,679
you know, an insurmountable challenge in trying to demonstrate the Trinity.

614
00:36:51,239 --> 00:36:53,920
And one way they also are successful in that is

615
00:36:54,000 --> 00:36:56,360
that they always try to assume that you're going to

616
00:36:56,519 --> 00:37:00,599
prove or disprove this by one text, one verse. And

617
00:37:00,800 --> 00:37:03,920
that's not really fair, first of all, because they expect

618
00:37:04,039 --> 00:37:08,480
us to not, you know, demand they prove a doctrine

619
00:37:08,519 --> 00:37:11,000
from one verse in the Koran. But yet we have

620
00:37:11,159 --> 00:37:14,400
this burden of proof that the Trinity or Jesus being

621
00:37:14,440 --> 00:37:17,440
God has to be this verse, or Jesus has to

622
00:37:17,519 --> 00:37:21,320
say I am you know, I am God, or I

623
00:37:21,400 --> 00:37:25,320
am Yahweh, or you must believe in the trinity. What

624
00:37:25,440 --> 00:37:29,320
are Bibles say trinity? So those are you know, unrealistic

625
00:37:29,440 --> 00:37:33,639
expectations for how you know, we don't believe that that's

626
00:37:33,679 --> 00:37:35,320
how you would go about proving it. And by the way,

627
00:37:35,320 --> 00:37:37,239
you don't believe that about your books. I think those

628
00:37:37,320 --> 00:37:40,320
are the most successful arguments I've seen that them have.

629
00:37:41,000 --> 00:37:45,719
Maybe second would be you know, challenges about how can

630
00:37:45,840 --> 00:37:49,400
Christ be fully god fully divine? You know, they always

631
00:37:49,440 --> 00:37:51,760
have these assumptions about what that must mean. It must

632
00:37:51,880 --> 00:37:54,639
mean that if there's an incarnation, it must mean that

633
00:37:54,760 --> 00:37:57,480
God changed. It must mean that, you know, there's some

634
00:37:57,639 --> 00:38:00,840
sort of alteration in the divine nature or something like that.

635
00:38:01,000 --> 00:38:05,159
Those I think are successful, I'm not. I mean, I'm

636
00:38:05,199 --> 00:38:07,599
being honest. I'm trying to think of what would be

637
00:38:07,679 --> 00:38:11,079
the best argument that they have. I think those are

638
00:38:11,079 --> 00:38:13,480
the most successful, but I don't think they're very good arguments.

639
00:38:13,800 --> 00:38:16,239
I can't. Yeah, I can't really think of what is

640
00:38:17,280 --> 00:38:19,599
how I could steal men Islam other than just that

641
00:38:19,760 --> 00:38:24,159
most people tend to assume that mono mono theism, which

642
00:38:24,159 --> 00:38:28,159
actually really late term, must mean unitarianism.

643
00:38:29,199 --> 00:38:33,320
Speaker 1: It's it's a funny thing. I myself, I just asked

644
00:38:33,320 --> 00:38:35,559
you this question, But when somebody asks me this question,

645
00:38:35,679 --> 00:38:39,719
I just, I honestly don't know what to say, because

646
00:38:40,719 --> 00:38:45,639
I have my disagreements with with a purely atheistic perspective

647
00:38:46,480 --> 00:38:50,679
and the purely Christian perspective. But if somebody asked me, uh,

648
00:38:51,119 --> 00:38:53,199
you know, strong arguments for either one, I would be

649
00:38:53,239 --> 00:38:56,360
happily present those. But if somebody asked me about that

650
00:38:56,440 --> 00:38:59,079
about Islam, it's just I don't know, because it's all

651
00:38:59,199 --> 00:38:59,760
quite pathetic.

652
00:39:00,559 --> 00:39:03,840
Speaker 3: Pretty well, I think maybe the best argument I could

653
00:39:03,880 --> 00:39:07,440
say that I've heard maybe doctor Khalil has an interesting

654
00:39:07,559 --> 00:39:12,400
take because he'll go into like neo platonism. But I mean,

655
00:39:12,440 --> 00:39:14,159
I just really I find it really hard to believe

656
00:39:14,239 --> 00:39:21,239
that I'm supposed to think that unlettered, illiterate Arab guys

657
00:39:21,320 --> 00:39:25,760
in the in the seventh century are actually really teaching neoplatonism.

658
00:39:26,360 --> 00:39:28,599
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I mean that to me, that's really kind

659
00:39:28,639 --> 00:39:31,719
of out language. Also considering the fact that if you

660
00:39:31,880 --> 00:39:36,079
actually look into the earliest accounts of what people at

661
00:39:36,119 --> 00:39:39,840
that time believed, if you go by Muslim standards, who

662
00:39:39,920 --> 00:39:44,519
will often appeal to reports by early Muslim scholars about

663
00:39:44,920 --> 00:39:50,320
the earliest beliefs of Muslims, you will find that according

664
00:39:50,320 --> 00:39:54,800
to the traditions, according to the earliest exegetes, the companions

665
00:39:54,880 --> 00:40:00,000
of Muhammad believed that the world was was a shape

666
00:40:00,000 --> 00:40:04,559
making grounds on the back of a whale that swims

667
00:40:04,639 --> 00:40:07,760
on the on the on the on the water. Well, yeah, okay,

668
00:40:09,119 --> 00:40:12,119
that Allah put the mountains into the earth in order

669
00:40:12,159 --> 00:40:15,000
to stabilize it and prevent it from shaking, but that

670
00:40:15,159 --> 00:40:18,039
this whale moves around and sometimes that causes you know,

671
00:40:18,400 --> 00:40:19,559
earthquakes and things like that.

672
00:40:19,679 --> 00:40:22,039
Speaker 3: So this is funny because I think this hits on

673
00:40:22,119 --> 00:40:23,960
a key point here that we brought up last time

674
00:40:24,000 --> 00:40:25,840
we were talking, which is when you were talking about

675
00:40:25,840 --> 00:40:29,440
the pigs. My assumption was, well, surely that's some sort

676
00:40:29,440 --> 00:40:31,880
of like symbolic language, because I think, you know, in

677
00:40:32,000 --> 00:40:34,280
terms of Jewish and Christian ex to Jesus, there's a

678
00:40:34,360 --> 00:40:40,719
recognition of symbolism, metaphor, you know, all types of different

679
00:40:40,840 --> 00:40:45,039
levels of interpretation of the text. But in early especially

680
00:40:45,039 --> 00:40:48,039
in early Islam, no, it's literally just saying that there's

681
00:40:48,119 --> 00:40:50,960
no mystical meanings. And so if you were to take

682
00:40:51,000 --> 00:40:54,000
say a doctor Khalil position where he wants and he's

683
00:40:54,119 --> 00:40:58,360
very emphatic that in the Shia tradition they believe, like

684
00:40:58,480 --> 00:41:01,480
Christians and Jews, that they're sort of multiple layers of

685
00:41:01,599 --> 00:41:04,039
meaning to the text. Is a deeper sort of allegorical

686
00:41:04,159 --> 00:41:06,960
or spiritual meaning to a lot of these texts. Now, look,

687
00:41:07,519 --> 00:41:10,400
if that's the case, if there's these deeper esoteric meanings,

688
00:41:10,960 --> 00:41:14,039
and if the chron is really teaching me neo platonism,

689
00:41:14,519 --> 00:41:17,679
I would expect that they would get the basics and

690
00:41:17,800 --> 00:41:21,719
the historical simple things right. If there's these deeper meanings,

691
00:41:21,880 --> 00:41:25,280
but if it doesn't get the basic facts about what

692
00:41:25,440 --> 00:41:29,159
prior revelation said about. For example, you know, the arc

693
00:41:29,239 --> 00:41:31,559
of the Covenant is a box that has wings on it,

694
00:41:31,639 --> 00:41:34,400
that flies around that it has Moses' private family jewels

695
00:41:34,440 --> 00:41:37,159
in it. I mean, I would expect you would get

696
00:41:37,199 --> 00:41:38,719
at least what the arc of the company. That's not

697
00:41:38,760 --> 00:41:41,679
what the oir coven is like it. It's not an

698
00:41:41,679 --> 00:41:46,480
Amazon drone with Moses family jewels in it, right, It's

699
00:41:46,639 --> 00:41:50,079
it's a box that's in the temple, that's a big

700
00:41:50,199 --> 00:41:53,639
gold thing with angel golden angels on it. It's not

701
00:41:53,719 --> 00:41:56,400
a thing that flies. So I mean, you see what

702
00:41:56,440 --> 00:41:59,440
I'm saying. If there was actually a deeper esoterics, then

703
00:41:59,519 --> 00:42:02,679
you would you at least be getting the literal stuff.

704
00:42:02,480 --> 00:42:06,199
Speaker 1: Right, That's correct. I saw after our discussion last time

705
00:42:06,239 --> 00:42:10,360
when we when we were talking about how according to Islam,

706
00:42:10,480 --> 00:42:12,639
Jesus will come back and will kill the pig. That

707
00:42:12,760 --> 00:42:14,960
was apparently a highlight, and somebody responded to it and

708
00:42:15,039 --> 00:42:18,119
said that there is actually a more sinister meaning behind it,

709
00:42:18,760 --> 00:42:22,880
and I thought, you know, I see what you mean,

710
00:42:23,079 --> 00:42:24,960
and I see what you're doing, and I see how

711
00:42:25,000 --> 00:42:28,760
you say that there is a sinister Islamic implication about

712
00:42:29,280 --> 00:42:32,760
what pigs represent and what breaking the cross represents. However,

713
00:42:33,079 --> 00:42:36,599
you are giving Islam too much credit here. It's it's

714
00:42:37,079 --> 00:42:40,159
really not that deep. It is that is very very

715
00:42:40,519 --> 00:42:44,119
very primitive, extremely primitive, and it's and it's in the

716
00:42:44,159 --> 00:42:45,159
way it handles things.

717
00:42:45,280 --> 00:42:48,000
Speaker 3: Well, if it wasn't, then I mean to cut you off.

718
00:42:48,039 --> 00:42:51,639
But let's say doctor Khalil's correct that no, really Islam

719
00:42:51,800 --> 00:42:53,360
is this deeper esoteric stuff.

720
00:42:53,960 --> 00:42:54,840
Speaker 1: Well, then why is it.

721
00:42:54,960 --> 00:43:00,159
Speaker 3: So clouded and clogged up with the goofy hadiths that aren't.

722
00:43:01,719 --> 00:43:04,199
Speaker 1: Well, there are some very deep dees to be honest.

723
00:43:04,239 --> 00:43:06,719
For example, one uh, which I would like to have

724
00:43:06,840 --> 00:43:10,519
your input on, would be uh one thing that Muhammad said,

725
00:43:10,599 --> 00:43:15,239
which was the eyes are the leather strap of the anus.

726
00:43:17,239 --> 00:43:20,519
Speaker 3: I knew you were going to bring something. Third. I

727
00:43:20,679 --> 00:43:23,159
was like, for like one second, I was like, oh,

728
00:43:23,480 --> 00:43:25,920
what if he's gonna He's gonna bring out Mohammed's like

729
00:43:27,039 --> 00:43:30,480
physical treatise on like reality and being And it's like

730
00:43:31,320 --> 00:43:33,440
the eyes of the leather strap of the anus. That's

731
00:43:33,440 --> 00:43:36,199
a new one to me. I didn't know that sound

732
00:43:36,239 --> 00:43:36,719
pretty deep.

733
00:43:40,519 --> 00:43:43,119
Speaker 1: This isn't actual, goes I guess you could get.

734
00:43:43,239 --> 00:43:45,679
Speaker 3: You could give like a esoteric I don't know what

735
00:43:45,760 --> 00:43:48,480
it would be. But by the way, on that topic,

736
00:43:49,079 --> 00:43:51,000
you know what, this actually sounds really similar to have

737
00:43:51,079 --> 00:43:55,559
you ever heard of Jim Jones's Like he would he

738
00:43:55,599 --> 00:43:58,960
would go into these long, weird discourses and he has

739
00:43:59,039 --> 00:44:03,320
this idea that like farted out the universe. I mean

740
00:44:03,559 --> 00:44:06,559
it's I know, it's goofy, but like you find like

741
00:44:06,679 --> 00:44:09,599
at times these cult leaders will kind of like they'll

742
00:44:09,679 --> 00:44:14,000
kind of spill the beans on. It's just like crazy bs.

743
00:44:13,800 --> 00:44:17,880
Speaker 1: You know what I mean, no pun intended beans. But yeah,

744
00:44:18,039 --> 00:44:20,119
Jim Jones is my it's my favorite cult leader. So

745
00:44:20,159 --> 00:44:21,679
I know, quite's quite a bit about him.

746
00:44:24,920 --> 00:44:26,800
Speaker 3: Collection like Pokemon you got like cards?

747
00:44:26,880 --> 00:44:34,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I finally got this one, uh interesting stuff. Yeah.

748
00:44:34,920 --> 00:44:37,159
But just to explain to you what the deep meaning

749
00:44:37,239 --> 00:44:39,320
of the eyes of the letters, strap of the anus means.

750
00:44:39,360 --> 00:44:43,199
What Muhammed meant when he said that was so you're

751
00:44:43,239 --> 00:44:45,760
supposed to do the ablution whenever you do a prayer, right,

752
00:44:46,599 --> 00:44:49,679
But if you go to sleep and you fall asleep,

753
00:44:49,760 --> 00:44:52,760
you don't have full full control over your your anus anymore,

754
00:44:52,760 --> 00:44:56,000
and you might fart, which might invalidate the ablution. So

755
00:44:56,280 --> 00:44:58,760
his his idea was the eyes are what keep the

756
00:44:58,880 --> 00:45:01,440
anus shut because they are the leather strap that keep

757
00:45:01,480 --> 00:45:05,239
it shut, like like on a bottle back. Then what

758
00:45:05,400 --> 00:45:07,719
what if you close the eyes, then the leather strap

759
00:45:07,840 --> 00:45:11,159
is loose and farts might get out. So you would

760
00:45:11,199 --> 00:45:14,079
have to given that that is a possibility when you

761
00:45:14,119 --> 00:45:15,519
wake up, you have to do another.

762
00:45:15,719 --> 00:45:18,239
Speaker 3: I'm not really into Freudian stuff, but it would be

763
00:45:18,320 --> 00:45:21,760
really amusing to see a Freudian analysis of these needs

764
00:45:21,840 --> 00:45:27,039
and like what what Mohamma was up to? Well, that's

765
00:45:27,159 --> 00:45:28,960
that's that's a wild one. I mean, are the hot

766
00:45:29,000 --> 00:45:33,519
these basically just a giant encyclopedia of like crazy stuff

767
00:45:33,559 --> 00:45:35,840
that people are discovering, like on a daily basis, Like

768
00:45:36,119 --> 00:45:37,480
is this just endless? The stuff?

769
00:45:38,320 --> 00:45:41,360
Speaker 1: It's just much of it is just so random. It's

770
00:45:41,840 --> 00:45:45,840
it is. So I have a collection here, Yeah, I've.

771
00:45:45,719 --> 00:45:48,760
Speaker 3: Got I've got them on order, sahib Ohari.

772
00:45:48,559 --> 00:45:51,639
Speaker 1: And so I actually have one that I recommend to you,

773
00:45:51,719 --> 00:45:56,719
which is Sahibukari with all repetitions removed. Oh okay, yeah,

774
00:45:56,840 --> 00:46:00,440
so it's it's it's relatively short compared to the whole thing.

775
00:46:00,920 --> 00:46:04,119
But if if you go through it, or I have

776
00:46:04,199 --> 00:46:09,239
another one which is a mass transmitted verified hadiths listed

777
00:46:09,320 --> 00:46:11,239
in a in one book, and much of it is

778
00:46:11,360 --> 00:46:14,880
just it's just completely useless information that that is just

779
00:46:14,920 --> 00:46:18,320
put in there where somebody where Mohammad says something totally irrelevant,

780
00:46:18,360 --> 00:46:20,639
and then people just report on it and and and

781
00:46:20,760 --> 00:46:22,039
deliver it, and that's it.

782
00:46:22,199 --> 00:46:24,920
Speaker 3: I'm going to walk down to the horse store today. Okay,

783
00:46:27,199 --> 00:46:29,440
they're they're just random stuff.

784
00:46:29,960 --> 00:46:32,480
Speaker 1: Oh there. There's also some interesting, weird detail that, uh,

785
00:46:32,719 --> 00:46:35,039
that David likes to bring up. For example, like that

786
00:46:35,800 --> 00:46:39,360
I just says that sometimes there was a lot of

787
00:46:39,440 --> 00:46:43,159
semen on Mohammed's uh on Mohammed's clothes and she would

788
00:46:43,199 --> 00:46:45,119
have to really scrub it off very very hard, and

789
00:46:45,119 --> 00:46:46,800
he would still have spots on it when he would

790
00:46:46,800 --> 00:46:52,639
go to the mask to pray. So things like that,

791
00:46:52,840 --> 00:46:57,159
you know, like interesting important stuff, theologically important and crucial stuff.

792
00:46:58,239 --> 00:46:58,360
Speaker 2: Uh.

793
00:47:02,000 --> 00:47:04,679
Speaker 1: Moving on, what is the worst thing you have heard

794
00:47:04,880 --> 00:47:10,719
from Muslims in terms of arguments? I know this is

795
00:47:10,760 --> 00:47:13,960
a very tough one, even worse than I think.

796
00:47:14,000 --> 00:47:16,239
Speaker 3: One of the things that stands out as just kind

797
00:47:16,280 --> 00:47:21,480
of silly was when Azar Rashid, when we were debating

798
00:47:22,280 --> 00:47:25,559
about the incarnation, and he said that there's no way

799
00:47:25,679 --> 00:47:30,000
that you know, God could be incarnate and come into

800
00:47:30,079 --> 00:47:32,039
the womb of a woman, because he would have the

801
00:47:32,119 --> 00:47:37,119
pastor of vagina. Vaginas are unclean. And you know, I

802
00:47:37,239 --> 00:47:38,639
might have mentioned this last time. I don't know, but

803
00:47:38,679 --> 00:47:41,159
it's like, well, but didn't All I create vaginas? I mean,

804
00:47:43,760 --> 00:47:45,199
but then but then again it's like, well, you have,

805
00:47:45,239 --> 00:47:47,519
but All I can create good and evil, you know,

806
00:47:47,679 --> 00:47:51,239
dark and light. He creates the wicked as well as

807
00:47:51,320 --> 00:47:54,760
the good. He wills evil directly as as well as

808
00:47:54,800 --> 00:47:58,960
the goods. So I mean, if All is the greatest

809
00:47:59,000 --> 00:48:01,920
of deceivers, the like, why is it wrong anyway? Right?

810
00:48:02,079 --> 00:48:04,079
So I thought that was always that always stands out

811
00:48:04,079 --> 00:48:05,239
as a funny objection.

812
00:48:05,639 --> 00:48:05,760
Speaker 4: Uh.

813
00:48:06,960 --> 00:48:09,199
Speaker 3: The worst stuff I think is like when they really

814
00:48:09,239 --> 00:48:12,760
try to go into what they think is a knock

815
00:48:12,800 --> 00:48:15,119
against Christianity. Oh so when you think when Christ became

816
00:48:15,159 --> 00:48:17,960
in carnate, he had he had body parts, and yet

817
00:48:17,960 --> 00:48:21,440
don't the Hadiths say that Allah has gonads and Allah

818
00:48:21,599 --> 00:48:24,119
is you know, ninety feet tall. And so it's like

819
00:48:24,280 --> 00:48:26,639
a lot of what they think is a gotcha ends

820
00:48:26,719 --> 00:48:29,239
up being you know, absurd in terms of their own

821
00:48:29,400 --> 00:48:35,719
hadiths worst argument. I think the Islami dilemma is pretty

822
00:48:35,760 --> 00:48:38,880
stupid if you think about it, like you want this

823
00:48:39,039 --> 00:48:43,280
book to be confirmed by the prior revelation and then literally,

824
00:48:43,480 --> 00:48:46,679
like Ajas said the debate when Sam pinned him, he said,

825
00:48:46,719 --> 00:48:50,000
what it did, just say, yes, it's all corrupt, but

826
00:48:50,039 --> 00:48:52,519
a lot of places are in it are true when

827
00:48:52,519 --> 00:48:56,719
it confirms the Koran. But thank you for literally saying

828
00:48:56,880 --> 00:48:59,360
what we were looking for you to admit. So he

829
00:48:59,400 --> 00:49:02,519
didn't even that. He admitted, like the very thing that

830
00:49:02,639 --> 00:49:06,400
we were saying was pretty devastating. That was that one

831
00:49:06,480 --> 00:49:08,800
stands out and it's.

832
00:49:08,599 --> 00:49:12,719
Speaker 1: A very very clear display of a fallacy, and he

833
00:49:12,960 --> 00:49:19,199
just says it right away. Yeah, it's very very interesting.

834
00:49:19,760 --> 00:49:21,320
But this is the perspective. This is what you are

835
00:49:21,360 --> 00:49:26,599
left with. Initially, the Muslims thought that that the Torah

836
00:49:26,760 --> 00:49:29,599
and in Jel contained truth, and they are they're the

837
00:49:29,719 --> 00:49:32,320
truth actually, and they were revealed by Allah and they

838
00:49:32,360 --> 00:49:34,920
are truth as they are, and Jews and Christians are

839
00:49:34,960 --> 00:49:38,480
supposed to still follow those books, and this narrative never

840
00:49:38,559 --> 00:49:41,400
really changed. In the Qur'an. There is no single courn

841
00:49:41,519 --> 00:49:45,280
verse which which actually explicitly says that those books are

842
00:49:45,400 --> 00:49:49,639
no longer authentic, or that they have been literally physically corrupted.

843
00:49:50,679 --> 00:49:54,199
It still insists that they should have just followed those books,

844
00:49:54,280 --> 00:49:58,159
or should just follow those books. But but you can't

845
00:49:58,199 --> 00:50:00,119
really make sense of it because if you actually the

846
00:50:00,239 --> 00:50:02,440
open host books and read them, then you have to

847
00:50:02,480 --> 00:50:06,480
conclude that Islam is false. You can't have both religions

848
00:50:06,519 --> 00:50:09,039
to be true at the same time, or three true

849
00:50:09,079 --> 00:50:09,679
at the same time.

850
00:50:10,960 --> 00:50:14,440
Speaker 3: Well, this suggests too that Muhammad was probably relying on

851
00:50:14,480 --> 00:50:17,199
a lot of people who couldn't read. Yeah, things are

852
00:50:17,280 --> 00:50:19,599
relying on an audience that even though he's saying you

853
00:50:19,639 --> 00:50:22,239
can check with what came before, I'm saying everything consistent

854
00:50:22,320 --> 00:50:25,039
with it. Well, if I actually go and read it,

855
00:50:25,079 --> 00:50:27,280
obviously that's not true. So I think the assumption was

856
00:50:27,320 --> 00:50:29,760
that maybe most you know, most of the audits is

857
00:50:29,800 --> 00:50:31,199
not actually going to do that, or they don't know

858
00:50:31,280 --> 00:50:35,719
what the texts actually say. And then also I think

859
00:50:35,760 --> 00:50:37,880
this one gets overlooked because I noticed more and more

860
00:50:37,960 --> 00:50:41,400
Muslims saying this. But it's a really stupid argument. When

861
00:50:41,440 --> 00:50:47,159
Daniel said, look, Islam is simple, and wouldn't God make

862
00:50:47,280 --> 00:50:50,079
the true religion more simple? Therefore it's got to be

863
00:50:50,199 --> 00:50:52,519
Islam right. I mean, to me, that's just such a

864
00:50:52,559 --> 00:50:56,159
stupid argument number one, because first of all, it's a

865
00:50:56,199 --> 00:50:59,239
fallacy to think that because something appears to be simple

866
00:50:59,320 --> 00:51:01,599
or that it's similar to grasp It's a version of

867
00:51:01,639 --> 00:51:04,440
Auckham's razor fallacy that has nothing to do with whether

868
00:51:04,440 --> 00:51:07,079
it's true or false. I mean, errors can be very simple.

869
00:51:07,159 --> 00:51:09,039
Does that make the errors true because they're simple? And

870
00:51:09,119 --> 00:51:12,519
it's silly, right, But also the Koran itself says in

871
00:51:12,599 --> 00:51:16,719
multiple places We've made everything clear. Everything is extremely clear,

872
00:51:17,679 --> 00:51:19,639
very clear, Like it says this over and over and over.

873
00:51:19,920 --> 00:51:21,760
And then there's another verse where it's like, well, many

874
00:51:21,800 --> 00:51:24,039
of these verses, only Allah knows what they mean, well,

875
00:51:24,079 --> 00:51:27,199
not exactly clear, right, So wait a minute, is the

876
00:51:27,320 --> 00:51:30,079
Koran extremely clear or is it complex? And only Allah

877
00:51:30,119 --> 00:51:32,239
knows many of these passes and what they mean, So

878
00:51:33,119 --> 00:51:35,440
by that very definition, it's not true. And then also

879
00:51:36,639 --> 00:51:38,599
Daniel knows good and well that. And by the way

880
00:51:38,599 --> 00:51:41,639
it's happened ever since that debate on Twitter and after

881
00:51:41,639 --> 00:51:44,440
the Muslim inter debate, they're all arguing over the attributes again,

882
00:51:45,079 --> 00:51:47,840
which is what I brought up in both debates that

883
00:51:48,079 --> 00:51:50,880
they've debated and killed each other over both of them

884
00:51:51,119 --> 00:51:55,960
both debates. The Muslims wide and acted like what is akida?

885
00:51:56,000 --> 00:51:58,840
I never heard of this? This is never what what

886
00:51:58,920 --> 00:52:03,679
are you talking about? Acting like there weren't famous wars

887
00:52:03,719 --> 00:52:07,480
and debate over the eternal Quran, over the attributes in

888
00:52:07,519 --> 00:52:11,440
the essence, and they're now debating it on Twitter, exemplifying

889
00:52:11,480 --> 00:52:13,519
the thing I said that they debate this when in

890
00:52:13,599 --> 00:52:15,719
the debates they said, we don't debate this stuff. We

891
00:52:15,800 --> 00:52:18,639
all agree all as one, so they play word games.

892
00:52:18,679 --> 00:52:22,079
They know good and well that I wasn't saying. Yes,

893
00:52:22,239 --> 00:52:24,760
of course you all say Allah is one, but what

894
00:52:24,960 --> 00:52:27,119
that means you all fight over That's the point.

895
00:52:29,400 --> 00:52:32,480
Speaker 1: There was a very very dirty moment by Muslim lantern

896
00:52:33,639 --> 00:52:36,519
who probably stole his name from me. Ex Muslim lantern

897
00:52:40,280 --> 00:52:42,239
who said during the debate, when you talked to him

898
00:52:42,239 --> 00:52:44,639
about about akida is akda, I don't know what that?

899
00:52:44,840 --> 00:52:46,760
What's t akita? What's aekida? What's tekida?

900
00:52:47,320 --> 00:52:47,440
Speaker 3: Uh?

901
00:52:47,920 --> 00:52:50,199
Speaker 1: You know, if you want to joke about it for

902
00:52:50,280 --> 00:52:52,880
a second, okay, go ahead and do that. But he's

903
00:52:53,000 --> 00:52:55,960
actually using that as a debate tactic, pretending that he

904
00:52:56,039 --> 00:52:58,360
doesn't know what akda is because he's like oh, you

905
00:52:58,440 --> 00:53:03,079
mean Alquida, not Akida. Uh we you know exactly what

906
00:53:03,239 --> 00:53:07,079
is being said. You're not you're not being funny, you're

907
00:53:07,119 --> 00:53:09,679
not being you're not ignorant. You know exactly what's being said.

908
00:53:09,880 --> 00:53:12,239
But he actually dodges the issue by saying, oh, I

909
00:53:12,280 --> 00:53:16,079
don't know what that is, which is a very interesting tactic.

910
00:53:16,119 --> 00:53:21,320
It's it's just within Islamic apologetics, it is it is

911
00:53:21,760 --> 00:53:25,480
considered acceptable, widely acceptable to simply, you know, deceive, to lie,

912
00:53:25,679 --> 00:53:30,239
to trick the opponent, to to be dishonest. And this

913
00:53:30,320 --> 00:53:32,840
shouldn't be the case. This shouldn't be the case for

914
00:53:33,119 --> 00:53:38,360
a a religion that supposedly represents these this this ultimate fantastic,

915
00:53:38,480 --> 00:53:42,440
great morality, as opposed to all the corruption in the

916
00:53:42,519 --> 00:53:44,719
world and all the you know, all the people who

917
00:53:44,760 --> 00:53:48,320
went astray. This shouldn't be it. If you lie, if

918
00:53:48,360 --> 00:53:51,320
you act dishonestly during debate debates, this just says a

919
00:53:51,360 --> 00:53:54,800
lot about about your religion and is a weak position.

920
00:53:55,480 --> 00:53:58,119
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, exactly a strong position. I don't need a

921
00:53:58,159 --> 00:54:01,800
bunch of tricks and and kind and schemes and tactics.

922
00:54:02,280 --> 00:54:05,199
I can simply present the positions. I can present the truth.

923
00:54:05,639 --> 00:54:08,280
I'm not going to have to rely on tactics that

924
00:54:08,960 --> 00:54:11,000
again obviously signify a weak position.

925
00:54:11,679 --> 00:54:15,599
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, And the whole thing about the trinity versus

926
00:54:15,719 --> 00:54:20,679
towhead is a very very interesting perspective. I get it.

927
00:54:20,840 --> 00:54:23,719
They like to appeal to that because they can catch

928
00:54:23,840 --> 00:54:27,119
They can get the average Muslim follower to say, oh, yeah,

929
00:54:27,239 --> 00:54:31,000
look makes so much sense, which is a very weird

930
00:54:31,079 --> 00:54:35,079
way to handle things. It mostly appeals to Muslims who

931
00:54:35,159 --> 00:54:38,719
already believe in the toe heat will say, yeah, look,

932
00:54:38,800 --> 00:54:42,239
Trinity doesn't make sense, lok, Trinity is too complicated. Well,

933
00:54:42,599 --> 00:54:46,679
first off, I never agreed and personally don't agree that

934
00:54:46,880 --> 00:54:50,280
the simple belief in the Trinity within the trayne God

935
00:54:50,480 --> 00:54:54,159
is a complicated issue. It may be complicated if you

936
00:54:54,280 --> 00:54:57,400
go further into the first centuries of Christianity, for example,

937
00:54:57,440 --> 00:55:01,440
and discuss the nature of God, scussed the christology in

938
00:55:01,559 --> 00:55:04,239
detail and all that, But these are things that Christianity

939
00:55:04,360 --> 00:55:08,920
handled uh uh in the very beginnings, long time ago. Similarly,

940
00:55:09,079 --> 00:55:11,840
Islam had disagreements, as you just mentioned, about the nature

941
00:55:11,880 --> 00:55:15,920
of Allah further about the Quran's createdness, whether the Qoran

942
00:55:16,039 --> 00:55:18,360
is created or not, or is an eternal speech of

943
00:55:18,400 --> 00:55:21,519
Allah that always pre always pre existed or not. Then

944
00:55:21,519 --> 00:55:25,440
they had an issue on predetermination and free will, which

945
00:55:25,519 --> 00:55:29,119
they killed over. There was one group known as the Mootazila,

946
00:55:29,199 --> 00:55:33,159
who had who's stuck on to the point that that

947
00:55:33,320 --> 00:55:37,199
predestination doesn't make sense uh and that that and that

948
00:55:37,320 --> 00:55:40,239
the Quran is created, And they were declared heretics and

949
00:55:40,400 --> 00:55:43,880
fought and also killed and punished over these things. If

950
00:55:43,920 --> 00:55:46,719
you want to come to the complications of the details

951
00:55:46,800 --> 00:55:50,199
of your theological beliefs, you can also talk about Islam

952
00:55:50,320 --> 00:55:54,679
in that in that regard, there is nothing really complicated

953
00:55:54,719 --> 00:55:59,199
about about Jesus, about the divinity of Jesus, about the

954
00:55:59,559 --> 00:56:02,679
Holy Spirit, about God, the Father, and so on. Plus

955
00:56:03,239 --> 00:56:07,480
they also engage in this tactic where they specifically talk

956
00:56:07,559 --> 00:56:12,360
about the doctrine of the Trinity and the Council of Nicia,

957
00:56:12,440 --> 00:56:16,760
for example, and act like, act like. Prior to this,

958
00:56:17,679 --> 00:56:20,719
Christians didn't actually hold on to the idea that there

959
00:56:20,800 --> 00:56:22,800
is the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, when

960
00:56:23,280 --> 00:56:26,000
we know very well that this is early Christianity. The

961
00:56:26,079 --> 00:56:29,000
first sources on Christianity talk about the Father, the Son,

962
00:56:29,079 --> 00:56:32,480
and the Holy Spirit. If you want to specifically talk

963
00:56:32,519 --> 00:56:35,079
about the formalization of the of the Trinity, that is

964
00:56:35,079 --> 00:56:38,440
a different matter, but that does that in no way,

965
00:56:38,639 --> 00:56:43,440
in no way invalidates the belief in Father, Son and

966
00:56:43,519 --> 00:56:45,039
Holy Spirit which was always there. Right.

967
00:56:45,800 --> 00:56:48,480
Speaker 3: Yeah, we did a stream with inspiring philosophy, which you

968
00:56:48,519 --> 00:56:51,119
can find on his channel still, where we spent out

969
00:56:51,119 --> 00:56:54,639
two and a half hours going through just first and

970
00:56:54,800 --> 00:57:01,239
second and third century Patristic text references to the Trinity.

971
00:57:01,840 --> 00:57:03,800
And so, first of all, the word is used prior

972
00:57:03,880 --> 00:57:07,119
to Nicea. You can find it in Theophilis, you can

973
00:57:07,199 --> 00:57:12,440
find it in Tertullian. And even though Tratullian did not

974
00:57:12,679 --> 00:57:16,280
end his life orthodox or in the Church, he does

975
00:57:16,360 --> 00:57:19,280
have a lot of historical texts that attest to the

976
00:57:19,320 --> 00:57:22,800
beliefs of that time. And so you know, there's there's

977
00:57:23,119 --> 00:57:26,880
a plethora of information and texts from Irenaeus to Ignatius

978
00:57:26,960 --> 00:57:35,559
to Clement, to Theophilis of Antioch, to Cyprian, to Alphinatius Alexander,

979
00:57:36,079 --> 00:57:40,719
all who have famous written texts prior to Nicia that

980
00:57:41,000 --> 00:57:43,960
basically demonstrate that when Nicia comes to gather and meets,

981
00:57:44,679 --> 00:57:48,159
they're not saying anything new. And this is actually another

982
00:57:48,400 --> 00:57:51,000
example of this is that and I'm not singling out

983
00:57:51,039 --> 00:57:54,000
inspiring philosophy here, But a lot of Protestants actually end

984
00:57:54,079 --> 00:57:57,320
up becoming Orthodox or Catholic over this point because they

985
00:57:57,400 --> 00:58:00,800
realized that, hey, actually I can actually go read all

986
00:58:00,880 --> 00:58:04,199
these people from these first three centuries. Most Muslims that

987
00:58:04,239 --> 00:58:07,679
I've encountered are not even aware that there are these people,

988
00:58:08,280 --> 00:58:12,239
unless they want to go to one text in Tertullian

989
00:58:12,440 --> 00:58:17,159
or one section of justin Martyr where suddenly, now right,

990
00:58:17,280 --> 00:58:20,119
they teach anti trinitarianism. Well, I don't think they teach

991
00:58:20,159 --> 00:58:22,880
anti trinitarianism if you look at the context, and Sam

992
00:58:22,960 --> 00:58:25,519
has schmun As a video where he goes into what

993
00:58:25,800 --> 00:58:29,599
Tertullian's actually saying. If you read that whole passage, ultimately

994
00:58:29,639 --> 00:58:32,719
it doesn't even matter because you know, Tertullian left the church,

995
00:58:32,800 --> 00:58:35,000
so I don't have a problem admitting that Totillian made errors.

996
00:58:35,599 --> 00:58:37,800
They'll also do this weird trick too, where they sort

997
00:58:37,800 --> 00:58:44,039
of expect, they expect to the Christians to hold to

998
00:58:44,119 --> 00:58:47,880
some standard that they have, And in our perspective, we

999
00:58:48,000 --> 00:58:50,559
don't think that every church father has to say everything

1000
00:58:50,599 --> 00:58:53,880
perfectly or get everything correct. They can make a mistake.

1001
00:58:54,079 --> 00:58:57,000
It's it's the judgment of the church. From the Christian perspective,

1002
00:58:57,039 --> 00:59:00,360
as to whether somebody like Origin is a hair or

1003
00:59:00,400 --> 00:59:03,079
Trapillion is a heretic, or whether someone like Justin Martyr,

1004
00:59:03,280 --> 00:59:05,440
even if he didn't say something perfectly, is still within

1005
00:59:05,480 --> 00:59:07,960
the bosom of the church. So they have these kind

1006
00:59:07,960 --> 00:59:10,880
of weird, uh, just all over the place standards that

1007
00:59:10,920 --> 00:59:14,159
they'll expect your position to conform to what they expect.

1008
00:59:14,559 --> 00:59:16,559
For example, yesterday I was a beating with a Muslim

1009
00:59:17,079 --> 00:59:19,920
and he said, uh, this is a new one, and

1010
00:59:20,000 --> 00:59:22,760
this is a funny version of it. She says, Torah

1011
00:59:22,960 --> 00:59:27,119
has to be like the Quran, a direct revelation to

1012
00:59:27,360 --> 00:59:30,079
Moses that he's that Moses spits out from a lot.

1013
00:59:30,679 --> 00:59:34,840
He says, that's what Torah is, and it's like at

1014
00:59:34,880 --> 00:59:38,360
the end of it, it talks about Moses dying, and

1015
00:59:38,440 --> 00:59:41,639
so therefore Torah is not what you have. I'm like,

1016
00:59:41,920 --> 00:59:44,679
that's your idea as to what Torah is. That's not

1017
00:59:44,840 --> 00:59:47,880
what we believe Torre is. So I'm not bound by

1018
00:59:47,920 --> 00:59:52,559
your standards, right. So, I think there's a real deficiency

1019
00:59:52,800 --> 00:59:58,800
when it comes to They seem to be typically incapable

1020
00:59:59,039 --> 01:00:02,039
of understanding what our position is, and I think they

1021
01:00:02,079 --> 01:00:05,400
don't want to. I think there's a desire to not

1022
01:00:05,519 --> 01:00:08,360
even care what the other position is, which is funny

1023
01:00:08,440 --> 01:00:10,360
because if you want to be a really good debater,

1024
01:00:10,800 --> 01:00:13,679
you want to know the other person's actual position.

1025
01:00:15,360 --> 01:00:22,320
Speaker 1: That's true. The problem is that Islam is incredibly ignorant.

1026
01:00:22,519 --> 01:00:26,920
It lacks the knowledge of the Biblical tradition, Biblical beliefs

1027
01:00:26,920 --> 01:00:30,159
and scriptures. The Quran is a tiny book in comparison

1028
01:00:30,239 --> 01:00:35,320
to the Bible that you have. It is a tiny

1029
01:00:35,360 --> 01:00:38,880
book compared to the Christian Bible, a tiny book compared

1030
01:00:38,920 --> 01:00:41,880
to the Tanakh. It is a tiny book compared to

1031
01:00:42,519 --> 01:00:47,119
Christian Jewish tradition. It does not compare. And coming from

1032
01:00:47,159 --> 01:00:51,760
that position, from that perspective, from what Mohammad and his

1033
01:00:51,920 --> 01:00:55,440
followers developed in the seventh century, and then judging the

1034
01:00:55,599 --> 01:01:00,280
Bible and expecting it to be on your standard, iecting

1035
01:01:00,320 --> 01:01:04,519
it to be by your standards, it's just is ridiculous.

1036
01:01:04,519 --> 01:01:07,079
It is completely ridiculous. And they make a lot of

1037
01:01:07,159 --> 01:01:12,400
mistakes there, including yeah, they don't understand what the Bible

1038
01:01:12,559 --> 01:01:14,840
actually is. They don't understand what the Torah actually is.

1039
01:01:15,519 --> 01:01:15,639
Speaker 4: Uh.

1040
01:01:15,760 --> 01:01:18,400
Speaker 1: They don't understand what the Gospel.

1041
01:01:19,880 --> 01:01:20,599
Speaker 3: Floated down right?

1042
01:01:20,719 --> 01:01:23,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly, they don't know. They when you

1043
01:01:23,599 --> 01:01:27,079
explain to them what the gospels actually are. They think

1044
01:01:27,639 --> 01:01:30,159
it can't be true whether so people wrote it. Well, no,

1045
01:01:30,280 --> 01:01:32,519
it must be revelation, it must be a lot must be,

1046
01:01:32,679 --> 01:01:35,119
it must be speaking it. And so this is not true,

1047
01:01:35,199 --> 01:01:38,239
this is not gospel. Uh yeah, I was just so.

1048
01:01:38,400 --> 01:01:42,599
Speaker 3: Doctor Khalil just did a long talk contrasting the athari

1049
01:01:42,760 --> 01:01:46,239
and the well even to me, a Salafia thory view

1050
01:01:46,400 --> 01:01:50,320
versus the review of not just attributes, but also in

1051
01:01:50,440 --> 01:01:54,639
what way the Qur'an was spoken by Allah? And then

1052
01:01:56,039 --> 01:02:00,880
Allah made Gabriel understand the uncreated speed each so that

1053
01:02:00,960 --> 01:02:03,440
he could then tell mom and to write down a

1054
01:02:03,599 --> 01:02:06,719
created version of the kron But what's missed here is

1055
01:02:06,800 --> 01:02:10,679
that it's never really answering the objection that we have.

1056
01:02:10,880 --> 01:02:12,800
And I've been bringing up back all the way back

1057
01:02:12,840 --> 01:02:15,599
to the Shabiri lead debate. I'm not saying I'm the

1058
01:02:15,599 --> 01:02:17,519
first person to say this. I'm sure many other Christians

1059
01:02:17,519 --> 01:02:19,880
have brought this up. But it's like, okay, but if

1060
01:02:20,000 --> 01:02:24,159
what's if what's in here is created and there's no

1061
01:02:24,440 --> 01:02:28,199
likeness to the uncreated, it's still begging the question, how

1062
01:02:28,280 --> 01:02:30,920
we ever know we're being told anything accurately about a law?

1063
01:02:31,039 --> 01:02:33,599
Because you can't have any images of a law. Alos

1064
01:02:33,760 --> 01:02:37,400
nothing like creatures like forty two and one ten. I

1065
01:02:37,480 --> 01:02:40,519
think there's nothing like a law okay, so there's nothing

1066
01:02:40,639 --> 01:02:43,599
like Allah. Then you understand these are created images on

1067
01:02:43,679 --> 01:02:45,760
a piece of paper. How are they telling us anything

1068
01:02:45,760 --> 01:02:49,119
about uncreated speech? And so they're always been this back

1069
01:02:49,159 --> 01:02:51,599
and forth. We had a guy on last night, the

1070
01:02:51,639 --> 01:02:53,599
Muslim guy, arguing this last night, and he says, well,

1071
01:02:54,199 --> 01:02:58,039
the representations of all those attributes, okay, was a representation

1072
01:02:58,199 --> 01:03:00,000
not an image? Is Adam not made of the end

1073
01:03:00,000 --> 01:03:03,440
image of Allah though there's no images? Well, their conceptions

1074
01:03:03,519 --> 01:03:07,239
and conceptions are in the mind, okay, is your mind

1075
01:03:07,280 --> 01:03:09,880
not created? So they just keep moving the problem back

1076
01:03:09,960 --> 01:03:12,559
in stuff? Right? So how are we avoiding idolatry when

1077
01:03:12,599 --> 01:03:16,000
we say, you know, this word here picks out all

1078
01:03:16,079 --> 01:03:20,000
his attribute here, So you need some kind of analogy.

1079
01:03:20,159 --> 01:03:22,920
If there's no analogies, then these creative things aren't telling

1080
01:03:23,039 --> 01:03:25,039
us anything about a lot. And I've never heard them

1081
01:03:25,119 --> 01:03:27,880
really give any clear answer. They're all over the place,

1082
01:03:27,960 --> 01:03:29,639
depending upon which Akia you're talking to.

1083
01:03:30,400 --> 01:03:34,920
Speaker 1: This problem is why? Is why? The humbly point of view,

1084
01:03:35,079 --> 01:03:38,480
which later developed the whole idea of the three point

1085
01:03:38,480 --> 01:03:43,920
of view, the traditionalist or ultra traditionalist revivalist point of view,

1086
01:03:44,199 --> 01:03:47,000
which is why they developed this whole idea of Okay,

1087
01:03:47,760 --> 01:03:51,079
what we know about a law comes from several sources

1088
01:03:51,119 --> 01:03:55,679
that he has at least one leg to right arms,

1089
01:03:57,159 --> 01:04:00,320
but we are not supposed to think about this any further.

1090
01:04:01,119 --> 01:04:04,239
Do not ask how? So do not ask how? Then

1091
01:04:04,320 --> 01:04:06,760
became this this phrase that is actually known as a

1092
01:04:06,880 --> 01:04:11,760
doctrine black Cave, which was specifically established in order to

1093
01:04:11,880 --> 01:04:15,960
prevent any further discussion about the nature of our law

1094
01:04:16,400 --> 01:04:19,480
and how we are supposed to understand it and to

1095
01:04:19,599 --> 01:04:22,960
simply accept the description as it is, but not to

1096
01:04:23,119 --> 01:04:24,960
imagine it and not to discuss it. But the thing is,

1097
01:04:25,000 --> 01:04:26,960
once to describe those things and I start imagining it,

1098
01:04:27,000 --> 01:04:31,239
it's too late already I already have some It's articulous.

1099
01:04:31,480 --> 01:04:33,719
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's what That's what I kept bringing up to Jake.

1100
01:04:33,840 --> 01:04:37,039
It's like, what is an uncreated foot that's nothing like

1101
01:04:37,119 --> 01:04:40,280
the human foot? But this and by the way, it

1102
01:04:40,360 --> 01:04:42,639
gets really silly when you get into the even to

1103
01:04:42,760 --> 01:04:46,800
me is theology of perfections, right, because he starts arguing that, well,

1104
01:04:46,840 --> 01:04:50,039
all I have to laugh, because laughing is more perfect

1105
01:04:50,079 --> 01:04:53,679
than not laughing. Yeah, I'm serious, And so then it

1106
01:04:53,760 --> 01:04:56,679
becomes well, wouldn't wouldn't it then be more perfect to

1107
01:04:56,840 --> 01:05:00,599
eternally laugh than to just laugh once? So so All

1108
01:05:00,800 --> 01:05:05,039
is like the joker, like he's constantly laughing, right, I

1109
01:05:05,079 --> 01:05:06,840
mean you see how silly this gets. And then it's like,

1110
01:05:07,519 --> 01:05:10,440
how many toes is a perfect foot? Like, wouldn't seven

1111
01:05:10,559 --> 01:05:12,800
because that's a perfect number. Wouldn't that be more perfect

1112
01:05:12,840 --> 01:05:15,960
to have seven toes and have five toes? Six toes?

1113
01:05:16,000 --> 01:05:19,039
Like what's your perfect number of toes on the uncreative foot? Yeah?

1114
01:05:19,039 --> 01:05:22,320
Silly this is, but that's literally, It's not that's literally

1115
01:05:22,400 --> 01:05:25,400
how even to me is arguing he's saying he actually

1116
01:05:25,480 --> 01:05:27,480
says it is more perfect for all that to laugh

1117
01:05:27,559 --> 01:05:28,199
and to not laugh.

1118
01:05:29,039 --> 01:05:31,679
Speaker 1: Well, it is the perfect thing is to have an

1119
01:05:31,760 --> 01:05:39,159
unlimited amount of toes actually, so so it's interesting, it's right, yeah,

1120
01:05:39,480 --> 01:05:40,320
but that's not right.

1121
01:05:40,679 --> 01:05:43,800
Speaker 3: But Christianity is absurd but not that Okay? Sure? No?

1122
01:05:45,360 --> 01:05:45,480
Speaker 4: Uh.

1123
01:05:46,159 --> 01:05:51,599
Speaker 1: Small question to viewers, Uh is this stream frozen? What's

1124
01:05:51,639 --> 01:05:55,840
happening here? I don't see any uh new chat coming

1125
01:05:55,920 --> 01:05:59,800
in the last chat is from several minutes ago. Uh,

1126
01:06:00,199 --> 01:06:02,760
I see some reactions. What's happening. I don't get it.

1127
01:06:03,280 --> 01:06:05,320
It's weird. I just checked on two different platforms and

1128
01:06:05,360 --> 01:06:07,239
I don't see the chat updating.

1129
01:06:07,880 --> 01:06:12,280
Speaker 3: For some weird reason, my chat was kind of freezing.

1130
01:06:14,159 --> 01:06:18,920
But if I look, if I stream on my phone,

1131
01:06:19,679 --> 01:06:21,480
your chat, you and I are talking.

1132
01:06:21,920 --> 01:06:24,599
Speaker 1: Yeah, the last chat is from behind you pal.

1133
01:06:25,119 --> 01:06:28,079
Speaker 3: Yeah, but you and I are still talking.

1134
01:06:28,360 --> 01:06:31,760
Speaker 1: But people are reacting with laughter and heart and hundred

1135
01:06:32,480 --> 01:06:35,639
and now it's going. Now it's going, Okay, fantastic. That's interesting.

1136
01:06:36,320 --> 01:06:44,119
That was weird. That was weird anyway. Yeah, so talking

1137
01:06:44,159 --> 01:06:49,440
about the nature the nature off of Allah, there's a okay, wait,

1138
01:06:49,800 --> 01:06:52,239
there's a sending error, but we hear you. Okay, I see,

1139
01:06:52,280 --> 01:06:54,159
I see. Apparently there's a there's a problem with the

1140
01:06:54,679 --> 01:07:00,719
with the YouTube chat. But we are still on so everything. Sorry, Okay,

1141
01:07:00,840 --> 01:07:03,519
all right, thanks for telling me, Thanks Sarah for telling me.

1142
01:07:04,159 --> 01:07:04,199
Speaker 4: So.

1143
01:07:05,679 --> 01:07:11,679
Speaker 1: Speaking of disagreements, speaking of Islamic beliefs and and all that,

1144
01:07:11,840 --> 01:07:16,320
there are certain powerful Islamic positions that I would like

1145
01:07:16,440 --> 01:07:20,599
to challenge you with today in order to I know

1146
01:07:20,719 --> 01:07:22,840
that there are you know, some Muslims that have been

1147
01:07:22,920 --> 01:07:27,760
intellectually stronger, some not so much. But there are some

1148
01:07:27,920 --> 01:07:31,119
arguments that I that I have heard, which would which

1149
01:07:31,159 --> 01:07:35,159
could change your mind when Islam. So one of those

1150
01:07:35,400 --> 01:07:40,760
is the following, why did Jesus and Mary eat food?

1151
01:07:46,000 --> 01:07:52,360
Speaker 3: Are you? I can't tell if you're like, you're being silly, right, yes? So,

1152
01:07:52,920 --> 01:07:55,599
I mean I could understand maybe thinking, well, if Jesus

1153
01:07:55,840 --> 01:07:58,159
is divine, why does he need to eat? But what

1154
01:07:58,440 --> 01:07:59,920
so they include Mary in the subjection.

1155
01:08:01,199 --> 01:08:08,280
Speaker 1: The Quran says that the Quran says that Jesus and

1156
01:08:09,079 --> 01:08:11,719
Mary were just regular humans and they both ate food.

1157
01:08:11,920 --> 01:08:16,279
So yeah, The question here is when it is quite clear,

1158
01:08:16,359 --> 01:08:19,039
as the Quran says that Jesus and Mary both ate food,

1159
01:08:21,359 --> 01:08:23,119
why do you consider them both gods?

1160
01:08:25,039 --> 01:08:27,279
Speaker 3: So, first of all, Mary isn't a god, She's not

1161
01:08:27,399 --> 01:08:31,199
a goddess. She's a creature. She will always be a creature.

1162
01:08:31,680 --> 01:08:34,439
We think creatures can be exalted by God to have

1163
01:08:35,079 --> 01:08:38,920
honor and status above others. We think about this even

1164
01:08:38,960 --> 01:08:41,960
in the human realm, a king has honored status above

1165
01:08:42,079 --> 01:08:44,279
you know, the rest of the people in his kingdom.

1166
01:08:44,640 --> 01:08:46,399
So in the same way, in the kingdom of God,

1167
01:08:46,520 --> 01:08:49,199
God can honor and exalt people. We see in Psalmn

1168
01:08:49,239 --> 01:08:51,880
forty five, the Mother of the Queen standing next to

1169
01:08:51,920 --> 01:08:54,279
the King in gold of Ofir. We think that's a

1170
01:08:54,359 --> 01:08:57,159
type and image of the Virgin Mary. Now when it

1171
01:08:57,239 --> 01:08:59,279
comes to the Son of God, we think that as

1172
01:08:59,319 --> 01:09:02,880
a subject or an agent, he's identical to the second

1173
01:09:02,920 --> 01:09:05,760
person of the Godhead in the Trinity, the Logos, the

1174
01:09:05,840 --> 01:09:07,760
Son of God. So even though he has a fully

1175
01:09:07,840 --> 01:09:10,399
human nature, we don't believe he's a human person or

1176
01:09:10,439 --> 01:09:14,079
a human hypostasis. That would be what's called the Nestorian view,

1177
01:09:14,119 --> 01:09:16,680
and that's what the Council of Ephesus rejects. So we

1178
01:09:16,760 --> 01:09:18,760
don't think that he's a human person, but he has

1179
01:09:18,840 --> 01:09:23,239
a fully human nature. That's premised on the Orthodox and

1180
01:09:23,560 --> 01:09:26,439
patrictic teaching of the distinction between nature and person. And

1181
01:09:26,520 --> 01:09:28,399
that's partly how we have the doctrine of the Trinity.

1182
01:09:28,760 --> 01:09:32,039
It's how we have Christology, and it's how humans have

1183
01:09:32,159 --> 01:09:35,800
a distinction. We would say between a I'm the person Jay,

1184
01:09:36,159 --> 01:09:38,359
but I have the human nature that you have. We

1185
01:09:38,439 --> 01:09:41,720
all have a common human nature. You're the person ridvon

1186
01:09:41,840 --> 01:09:45,399
I'm the person Jay, and there's a distinction there between that.

1187
01:09:45,560 --> 01:09:48,359
So likewise, in Christ, he's a divine person, but he

1188
01:09:48,399 --> 01:09:50,239
has a fully human nature and thus having a fully

1189
01:09:50,319 --> 01:09:54,079
human nature, he would get tired, he would cry, he

1190
01:09:54,159 --> 01:09:58,880
would need sustenance and food because he willed to have

1191
01:09:59,079 --> 01:10:01,840
a fully human nature. So a lot of times you'll

1192
01:10:01,880 --> 01:10:05,880
notice in Islamic debates everything is sort of assumed to

1193
01:10:05,920 --> 01:10:08,319
be either or either he's this or he's that. It's

1194
01:10:08,359 --> 01:10:12,000
either this or that, and in most orthodox theology it's

1195
01:10:12,039 --> 01:10:15,359
a both. And so we're usually saying there's a relationship

1196
01:10:15,720 --> 01:10:18,439
in terms of how grace works. Grace and free will

1197
01:10:18,520 --> 01:10:21,520
work together in synergy. Christ human nature and divine nature

1198
01:10:21,560 --> 01:10:23,720
are fully, fully human, fully divine, and they work together

1199
01:10:23,800 --> 01:10:30,159
in synergy. So likewise, here his human nature is real,

1200
01:10:31,000 --> 01:10:34,239
and so there's no trick going on. You had, for example,

1201
01:10:34,239 --> 01:10:36,880
in the early Church, certain groups that taught that Jesus

1202
01:10:36,880 --> 01:10:38,720
didn't really have a human nature was kind of like

1203
01:10:38,760 --> 01:10:42,479
a phantasm or a hologram. They're called the Dacatists. And

1204
01:10:42,680 --> 01:10:46,119
so one of the ways that Jesus, i think, wanted

1205
01:10:46,199 --> 01:10:49,199
to demonstrate that he was fully human is that he's

1206
01:10:49,279 --> 01:10:52,640
engaging in all of the activities that a human nature

1207
01:10:52,680 --> 01:10:55,520
would engage in, eating, sleeping, and so forth. So as

1208
01:10:55,600 --> 01:10:58,600
a divine subject, he didn't need those things, but he

1209
01:10:58,720 --> 01:11:00,000
willed to undergo those things.

1210
01:11:00,880 --> 01:11:03,840
Speaker 1: So basically we can't answer the question, this powerful question

1211
01:11:03,960 --> 01:11:07,720
from the Quran, which says here in chapter five, verse

1212
01:11:07,720 --> 01:11:10,119
seventy five, it says, the Messiah son of Mary was

1213
01:11:10,159 --> 01:11:14,520
not but a messenger. Messengers have passed on before him,

1214
01:11:14,920 --> 01:11:18,359
and his mother was a supporter of truth. They both

1215
01:11:18,520 --> 01:11:21,239
used to eat food. Look how we make clear to

1216
01:11:21,359 --> 01:11:24,399
them the signs. Then look how they are deluded. This

1217
01:11:24,600 --> 01:11:26,760
is obviously a very powerful Quran verse.

1218
01:11:27,119 --> 01:11:30,359
Speaker 3: And so the chorn trying to argue that because they

1219
01:11:30,399 --> 01:11:31,560
hate they were only human.

1220
01:11:33,079 --> 01:11:36,000
Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, yes, it's and it's a very powerful,

1221
01:11:36,199 --> 01:11:40,840
powerful argument which nobody has has yet succeeded to debunk.

1222
01:11:41,039 --> 01:11:44,199
So far, nobody has been able to refute this. The

1223
01:11:44,279 --> 01:11:46,279
Kuran has put this challenge out there forever, and not

1224
01:11:46,359 --> 01:11:48,880
a single person has ever come across and and and

1225
01:11:49,039 --> 01:11:51,359
refuted it, which just shows that the Kuran is all

1226
01:11:51,439 --> 01:11:53,199
powerful and fantastic.

1227
01:11:54,239 --> 01:11:54,359
Speaker 4: Uh.

1228
01:11:55,000 --> 01:11:58,760
Speaker 3: Even ironically, even in the Torah, you have the presentation

1229
01:11:59,159 --> 01:12:01,359
that most went up on the mountain and had a

1230
01:12:01,479 --> 01:12:05,079
meal with God. Abraham had a meal with God in

1231
01:12:05,560 --> 01:12:08,800
the famous you know, yeah, meal with Abra. And so

1232
01:12:09,359 --> 01:12:12,039
even prior to the incarnation, is still possible for God

1233
01:12:12,119 --> 01:12:14,560
to have a manifestation and to engage in what we

1234
01:12:14,640 --> 01:12:17,920
think are human activities, not because he needed those things,

1235
01:12:18,039 --> 01:12:20,960
but as a condescension to us. That's that's our view

1236
01:12:20,960 --> 01:12:21,119
of it.

1237
01:12:21,920 --> 01:12:26,239
Speaker 1: Well, I would say that those those parts in the

1238
01:12:26,439 --> 01:12:30,039
scripture which happened to disagree with the Kuran are obviously correct,

1239
01:12:30,119 --> 01:12:32,720
obviously obviously.

1240
01:12:33,239 --> 01:12:34,800
Speaker 3: But you know, it was something I noticed about that

1241
01:12:35,159 --> 01:12:37,359
When you start to say that, I know that that's like,

1242
01:12:37,439 --> 01:12:39,000
on the face of it, it's a double standard. But

1243
01:12:39,399 --> 01:12:42,880
there's another level to which that argument fails because when

1244
01:12:42,880 --> 01:12:45,640
I wait a minute, the Quran, let's say, in the

1245
01:12:45,720 --> 01:12:49,920
first tensuras like it sort of refers to and rep

1246
01:12:50,000 --> 01:12:54,680
and assumes like gigantic sections of the Old Testament. So

1247
01:12:54,760 --> 01:12:59,680
in other words, you've got gigantic sections of Genesis, uh, Exodus,

1248
01:13:00,479 --> 01:13:04,359
historical books with David Like, it's not just one person

1249
01:13:04,439 --> 01:13:08,319
that's referred to, it's like their story too. So we're

1250
01:13:08,359 --> 01:13:10,439
running into deeper problems when we start to think about

1251
01:13:10,439 --> 01:13:12,880
the fact that when I wait a minute, if if

1252
01:13:13,159 --> 01:13:16,920
the Quran in many places of firms gigantic portions of

1253
01:13:16,960 --> 01:13:19,520
the Torah and the writings, but then we're going to

1254
01:13:19,560 --> 01:13:23,000
turn around and say, oh, well, that section, that part's corrupt.

1255
01:13:23,800 --> 01:13:26,279
Do you see how it's an even deeper problem. But

1256
01:13:26,279 --> 01:13:28,640
wait a minute, and these other places you've actually confirmed

1257
01:13:28,680 --> 01:13:29,239
these whole.

1258
01:13:29,079 --> 01:13:33,319
Speaker 1: Stories exactly exactly. Here's another churn verse that I want

1259
01:13:33,319 --> 01:13:39,079
to show you, which in chapter Oh wait, wrong, wrong one,

1260
01:13:39,520 --> 01:13:42,920
wrong one. I thought I just opened the right one here, okay. Koran,

1261
01:13:43,079 --> 01:13:46,319
chapter five, verse thirty two, it says here the following.

1262
01:13:47,880 --> 01:13:50,760
Because of that, we decreed upon the children of Israel

1263
01:13:51,439 --> 01:13:54,479
that whoever kills a soul, unless for a soul or

1264
01:13:54,600 --> 01:13:57,119
for corruption done in the land, it is as if

1265
01:13:57,159 --> 01:14:02,199
he had killed all mankind, and whoever saves one, it

1266
01:14:02,319 --> 01:14:05,720
is as if he had saved all mankind, and our

1267
01:14:05,760 --> 01:14:08,439
messages had certainly come to them with clear proofs than indeed,

1268
01:14:08,479 --> 01:14:11,600
many of them throughout the land were transgressors. So this

1269
01:14:11,760 --> 01:14:14,760
is a This is a Quran verse in which Allah

1270
01:14:14,880 --> 01:14:20,800
supposedly says that it was he who told the children

1271
01:14:20,880 --> 01:14:25,159
of Israel the Jews that whoever kills one soul, that is,

1272
01:14:25,359 --> 01:14:27,880
it is as if he killed all mankind, and whoever

1273
01:14:28,000 --> 01:14:30,359
saves one soul, it is as if he had saved

1274
01:14:30,479 --> 01:14:31,399
all mankind.

1275
01:14:32,680 --> 01:14:33,720
Speaker 3: Isn't this from the talent?

1276
01:14:34,560 --> 01:14:35,319
Speaker 1: That's the problem.

1277
01:14:36,079 --> 01:14:40,119
Speaker 3: Yeah, this is the problem is the famous Talmut quote

1278
01:14:40,119 --> 01:14:43,039
because it's yeah, it's cited even by Jews today, like

1279
01:14:43,119 --> 01:14:45,319
Jews will cite this as a principle of Judaism.

1280
01:14:45,960 --> 01:14:48,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly, And this is the problem. This is actually

1281
01:14:48,800 --> 01:14:51,359
something that displays the problem with Islam, which is uh

1282
01:14:51,920 --> 01:14:55,439
which relates to what we talked about when we discussed

1283
01:14:55,600 --> 01:14:59,000
where Muhammed got his information from and how much he

1284
01:14:59,119 --> 01:15:03,199
was aware of it. So what is most likely the

1285
01:15:03,319 --> 01:15:06,479
case here, What most likely happened here is that he's

1286
01:15:06,560 --> 01:15:10,760
in the presence of Jews in Medina, and Jews famously

1287
01:15:11,399 --> 01:15:15,000
say this phrase how and that this is what they are,

1288
01:15:15,279 --> 01:15:16,960
this is what they teach and what they are taught

1289
01:15:17,000 --> 01:15:20,000
according to their book. And Muhammadan thinks that this is

1290
01:15:20,079 --> 01:15:24,359
actually found in a revelation from a law, although it

1291
01:15:24,439 --> 01:15:28,520
is not. This is literally just a Rabbinic interpretation, and

1292
01:15:28,640 --> 01:15:32,319
then he adopts this into the Quran and says that

1293
01:15:32,479 --> 01:15:35,960
this is what Allah said to the Jews, which is

1294
01:15:36,079 --> 01:15:38,199
very funny because on the one hand, you have Muslims

1295
01:15:38,239 --> 01:15:42,079
nowadays arguing that the Bible was corrupted, was partially corrupted,

1296
01:15:42,640 --> 01:15:46,079
and there are some divine revelations in it, still but

1297
01:15:46,199 --> 01:15:47,960
most of it is or much of it is corrupt.

1298
01:15:48,279 --> 01:15:51,880
But then the actually but then the Quran actually wrongly

1299
01:15:52,079 --> 01:15:56,159
appeals to a book or a text it was written

1300
01:15:56,239 --> 01:15:59,920
by humans as an interpretation of divine rene.

1301
01:16:00,199 --> 01:16:01,279
Speaker 3: That it's that it's.

1302
01:16:02,960 --> 01:16:03,960
Speaker 1: Exactly exactly.

1303
01:16:04,079 --> 01:16:07,680
Speaker 3: It's just really displaced the w Yeah, that's just like, yeah,

1304
01:16:07,720 --> 01:16:10,680
what does did Allah not know the source?

1305
01:16:11,720 --> 01:16:13,000
Speaker 1: Exactly exactly?

1306
01:16:13,560 --> 01:16:14,000
Speaker 3: Great point.

1307
01:16:14,840 --> 01:16:16,680
Speaker 1: When you bring this up nowadays, you will get excuses

1308
01:16:16,720 --> 01:16:19,239
from Muslims uh, which go into the direction of, well,

1309
01:16:19,800 --> 01:16:22,560
h you know, a lot told people something and maybe

1310
01:16:22,640 --> 01:16:23,840
this was at some point in the.

1311
01:16:27,319 --> 01:16:30,960
Speaker 3: It's just well maybe at one point in Torah and

1312
01:16:31,039 --> 01:16:32,199
it got lost or something.

1313
01:16:32,439 --> 01:16:34,279
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, and it doesn't even make sense, like it

1314
01:16:34,359 --> 01:16:36,399
wasn't a Torah. But the and the Jews, they they

1315
01:16:36,560 --> 01:16:39,319
they didn't bother putting it back into the Torah, but

1316
01:16:39,439 --> 01:16:40,600
they did write it into the.

1317
01:16:40,800 --> 01:16:43,720
Speaker 3: They put it in the in the talent. We're going

1318
01:16:43,760 --> 01:16:45,479
to erase it from the Torah and then we'll stick

1319
01:16:45,520 --> 01:16:46,039
it in the talent.

1320
01:16:46,119 --> 01:16:48,479
Speaker 1: Okay, it doesn't make much sense.

1321
01:16:49,039 --> 01:16:49,159
Speaker 4: Uh.

1322
01:16:49,840 --> 01:16:52,039
Speaker 1: Next question that I have for you is we just

1323
01:16:52,079 --> 01:16:54,720
talked about Jesus eating food, and Jesus wasn't an environment

1324
01:16:54,760 --> 01:17:00,720
that was a Jewish environment. So Mohammed said that that

1325
01:17:01,000 --> 01:17:06,399
meat decays and goes bad because of because of the

1326
01:17:06,479 --> 01:17:09,600
children of Israel's because of the Jews. So can we

1327
01:17:09,720 --> 01:17:13,239
assume therefore that Jesus most likely also ate meat that

1328
01:17:13,319 --> 01:17:13,960
would decay.

1329
01:17:17,760 --> 01:17:20,039
Speaker 3: Okay, So this is a new one to me. I'm

1330
01:17:20,079 --> 01:17:21,800
not an understanding of the argument. I'm trying to figure

1331
01:17:21,800 --> 01:17:23,680
out where they would the way they would get that.

1332
01:17:23,760 --> 01:17:25,800
One thing I'm noticing is that a lot of the

1333
01:17:26,000 --> 01:17:28,520
things that kind of sound odd or that you hear

1334
01:17:28,680 --> 01:17:31,319
referenced in Islam like this and kind of like when

1335
01:17:31,359 --> 01:17:33,920
you were bringing up the pig thing like it's it

1336
01:17:34,159 --> 01:17:38,840
sounds like places in like Ezekiel, or like areas of

1337
01:17:39,640 --> 01:17:43,880
the Old Testament where he misheard or misunderstood what it meant,

1338
01:17:43,960 --> 01:17:46,760
and then he like repeats it. So this sounds like

1339
01:17:47,439 --> 01:17:50,239
like the mana would be set out over and I

1340
01:17:50,319 --> 01:17:53,399
know that mana's not meat, but it would go bad overnight.

1341
01:17:53,520 --> 01:17:56,800
So does he think that the food given to the

1342
01:17:56,920 --> 01:17:59,319
Jews and the wilderness and it decayed and went bad

1343
01:17:59,399 --> 01:18:00,479
so they couldn't collect it.

1344
01:18:01,079 --> 01:18:03,800
Speaker 1: I mean, it literally says the prophet said, were it

1345
01:18:03,960 --> 01:18:07,039
not for beny Israel, So the children of Israel, meat

1346
01:18:07,079 --> 01:18:10,760
would not decay, and were it not for Eve, no

1347
01:18:10,920 --> 01:18:12,560
woman would ever betray her husband.

1348
01:18:13,279 --> 01:18:17,720
Speaker 3: So meat obviously get a connection between Eve and the

1349
01:18:17,880 --> 01:18:21,520
fall in in like of Adam and Eve, the admin

1350
01:18:21,560 --> 01:18:23,640
e fall, and so that leads to decay and corruption

1351
01:18:23,720 --> 01:18:26,399
in the world and thus kind of like Eve fell

1352
01:18:27,119 --> 01:18:29,880
in the garden of Eden. I mean, this is really bizarre.

1353
01:18:29,920 --> 01:18:31,520
I have no idea. This is a new one to me.

1354
01:18:32,239 --> 01:18:34,239
Speaker 1: Well, obviously meat goes bad because of the Jews, so

1355
01:18:35,279 --> 01:18:38,560
I would I would always uh, you know, remember if

1356
01:18:38,600 --> 01:18:41,079
you have if you ever store meat and it decays,

1357
01:18:41,119 --> 01:18:42,880
it goes back and has a bad smell to it,

1358
01:18:42,920 --> 01:18:45,760
and you can't use it anymore because of the Jews.

1359
01:18:45,640 --> 01:18:48,640
Speaker 3: You can blame you can blame blame that for that.

1360
01:18:51,279 --> 01:18:54,199
So in a minute, they have to have some explanation.

1361
01:18:54,359 --> 01:18:58,800
So tell me, steal man, steal man, what's next?

1362
01:19:01,760 --> 01:19:03,760
Speaker 1: I mean, you can you can look into explanations which

1363
01:19:03,760 --> 01:19:09,159
were developed, which were developed by Muslims later on as

1364
01:19:09,199 --> 01:19:12,239
an interpretation to what in the world this could mean.

1365
01:19:12,359 --> 01:19:14,760
And you have different different explanations that I saw here

1366
01:19:14,800 --> 01:19:19,000
and there, or saying oh it doesn't say that this

1367
01:19:19,159 --> 01:19:22,279
is not making a scientific statement on how meat is

1368
01:19:22,359 --> 01:19:26,760
decaying because Jews did something or because Jews exist. It

1369
01:19:26,880 --> 01:19:30,399
is merely pointing out that that meat was made to

1370
01:19:30,560 --> 01:19:34,079
decay by Allah due to the wrongdoings of the children

1371
01:19:34,159 --> 01:19:36,760
of Israel. That doesn't change anything at all. It's just

1372
01:19:36,880 --> 01:19:42,319
it's it's it's ridiculous in any case. But anyway, ever

1373
01:19:42,399 --> 01:19:44,239
since I heard this, ever since I've read this and

1374
01:19:44,439 --> 01:19:49,119
know this, when I buy food, daili meat or something,

1375
01:19:49,199 --> 01:19:52,000
and I see it's expired and it has a bad

1376
01:19:52,039 --> 01:19:54,159
spellic freaking juice, man.

1377
01:19:55,640 --> 01:19:57,960
Speaker 3: So this is all meat in the world though, right, Yeah,

1378
01:19:58,279 --> 01:20:01,000
so if you're like a Chinese peasant, right and your

1379
01:20:01,159 --> 01:20:02,199
your fish goes.

1380
01:20:02,000 --> 01:20:07,800
Speaker 1: Bad juice, okay, juice, I mean.

1381
01:20:09,600 --> 01:20:11,640
Speaker 3: Not even I've never even heard of Jews.

1382
01:20:11,439 --> 01:20:14,560
Speaker 1: But that wants the Jews. Yeah right, it's because it's

1383
01:20:14,600 --> 01:20:17,399
it's ignorance, of course. Something. If if you don't know

1384
01:20:17,560 --> 01:20:19,119
that it's the Jews, then you might not know because

1385
01:20:19,119 --> 01:20:21,079
you don't know what a Jew is, but it is.

1386
01:20:21,239 --> 01:20:23,239
It doesn't change the fact that it's still the Jews fault.

1387
01:20:23,439 --> 01:20:27,439
Speaker 3: So tiny mustache man had been successful and we didn't

1388
01:20:27,479 --> 01:20:30,760
have Jews, would meat be like immortal.

1389
01:20:31,319 --> 01:20:36,920
Speaker 1: Let's see what they took from us, like all meat would.

1390
01:20:37,000 --> 01:20:40,720
Speaker 3: Would be beef jerky, automatical, eternal meat.

1391
01:20:41,079 --> 01:20:44,600
Speaker 1: Exactly, we would never ever have to have to have

1392
01:20:44,720 --> 01:20:46,880
to care about storing meat properly.

1393
01:20:47,000 --> 01:20:50,920
Speaker 3: Again, uh so this is like, this is like Russian

1394
01:20:51,039 --> 01:20:53,079
Roulette of like the craziest had eats.

1395
01:20:53,199 --> 01:20:53,680
Speaker 1: So you're.

1396
01:20:55,439 --> 01:21:00,800
Speaker 3: Basically you're totally debunking all Christian theology today by these

1397
01:21:02,199 --> 01:21:05,319
iron clad hadiths that I don't know about.

1398
01:21:05,479 --> 01:21:13,520
Speaker 1: So you've stopped me exactly. Speaking of culinary miracles, the

1399
01:21:13,640 --> 01:21:14,560
next one would.

1400
01:21:14,359 --> 01:21:20,720
Speaker 3: Be invoke Saint Gordon Ramsey and Saint Guy Fieri for

1401
01:21:21,359 --> 01:21:23,319
any culinary apologetic challenges.

1402
01:21:26,199 --> 01:21:28,520
Speaker 1: When a fly falls into your soup, you have to

1403
01:21:28,560 --> 01:21:30,439
make sure that you dunk it fully in so that

1404
01:21:30,560 --> 01:21:33,039
the other wing also touches the soup, because that will

1405
01:21:34,000 --> 01:21:36,279
that will cure the disease that that that is in

1406
01:21:36,479 --> 01:21:40,560
the fly, and then you can eat it again. Why

1407
01:21:40,640 --> 01:21:43,119
did Christianity never inform us off this beautiful.

1408
01:21:44,800 --> 01:21:48,760
Speaker 3: We were deceived by Jews and we we didn't tell

1409
01:21:48,800 --> 01:21:51,640
you guys the truth about a fly in the sup.

1410
01:21:52,199 --> 01:21:53,600
Speaker 1: Well that's that's actually a good point.

1411
01:21:54,439 --> 01:21:57,920
Speaker 3: Wait a minute, I just realized something. Jeff Goldblum is

1412
01:21:58,000 --> 01:21:58,399
in the fly.

1413
01:21:58,720 --> 01:22:01,600
Speaker 1: He becomes the fly he's a Jew.

1414
01:22:02,239 --> 01:22:06,239
Speaker 3: Jess a Jew. I'm noticing something here.

1415
01:22:06,960 --> 01:22:12,319
Speaker 1: Oh oh see, it wasn't the rated from right right

1416
01:22:12,359 --> 01:22:14,880
that the prophet said, if a fly falls into your drink.

1417
01:22:15,520 --> 01:22:18,439
In other in other narrations, it's as soup, dip it

1418
01:22:18,640 --> 01:22:21,079
into it, then throw it away, for one of its

1419
01:22:21,159 --> 01:22:23,520
wings is a disease and the other is a cure.

1420
01:22:23,880 --> 01:22:28,760
Speaker 3: So this almost sounds like it sounds like some kind

1421
01:22:28,760 --> 01:22:33,119
of a parable from like the Dalai Lama or something. Right,

1422
01:22:34,279 --> 01:22:35,840
what does this mean? I don't know, but it sounds

1423
01:22:35,920 --> 01:22:38,000
like something that something that the Dalai Lama would say

1424
01:22:38,039 --> 01:22:38,760
and mystify you.

1425
01:22:38,880 --> 01:22:43,359
Speaker 1: Right, yeah, yeah, you could probably expect some some deeper meanings,

1426
01:22:43,439 --> 01:22:48,039
deeper understandings, philosophical, you know, understandings revelations about this this whole.

1427
01:22:48,479 --> 01:22:51,439
Speaker 3: We can ask doctor Khalil what the neo platonic esoteric

1428
01:22:51,560 --> 01:22:57,199
meaning of that is, all right, because I know they

1429
01:22:57,199 --> 01:22:58,279
don't he doesn't accept those.

1430
01:22:58,640 --> 01:23:01,319
Speaker 1: I'm just making say, yeah, yeah yeah. The next problem

1431
01:23:01,720 --> 01:23:07,239
would be so Christianity or Christians failed to point out

1432
01:23:07,359 --> 01:23:12,560
why Jews are wrong forever uh and the Quran successfully

1433
01:23:12,640 --> 01:23:16,439
came in chapter nine, verse thirty and pointed out why

1434
01:23:16,560 --> 01:23:20,079
Jews are no longer accepted. And it's said that that

1435
01:23:20,239 --> 01:23:23,119
Jews say Ezra is the son of our law, and

1436
01:23:23,319 --> 01:23:25,159
Christians say the Messiah is the son of our law,

1437
01:23:25,319 --> 01:23:26,680
and that this is what, this is why they are

1438
01:23:26,760 --> 01:23:31,359
regarded disbelievers and trip be fought. So why did why

1439
01:23:31,439 --> 01:23:34,159
did Christians never say anything about the fact that Jews

1440
01:23:34,239 --> 01:23:35,800
believe Ezra is the son of our law?

1441
01:23:36,439 --> 01:23:39,399
Speaker 3: Yeah, isn't this one of those weird, mysterious passages that

1442
01:23:40,359 --> 01:23:42,840
we don't exactly know what the heck this is talking about.

1443
01:23:43,000 --> 01:23:45,399
I mean, first of all, where did Mohammad get the

1444
01:23:45,479 --> 01:23:50,800
idea that anybody takes Ezra to be a son of God?

1445
01:23:52,199 --> 01:23:54,560
Speaker 1: Well, if the Quran says it, it must be true,

1446
01:23:54,600 --> 01:23:55,039
so I know.

1447
01:23:55,159 --> 01:23:59,439
Speaker 3: But I mean, like it's just really bizarre. I mean,

1448
01:24:00,600 --> 01:24:03,119
Ezra has a very minor place in the Bible. I

1449
01:24:03,199 --> 01:24:05,479
mean there's books of Ezra, right, and then there's the

1450
01:24:05,640 --> 01:24:07,880
you know Ezra. I mean, he's not in a minor figure.

1451
01:24:07,880 --> 01:24:10,479
He's an important figure because Ezra is really the beginning

1452
01:24:10,520 --> 01:24:13,640
of the Synagogue system. So after Moses, you get this

1453
01:24:13,800 --> 01:24:16,840
idea that Israel needs to have people to teach the

1454
01:24:16,920 --> 01:24:20,720
law all throughout Israel, and so Ezra helps to organize

1455
01:24:20,760 --> 01:24:23,880
what's called the synagogue system throughout Israel and then by

1456
01:24:23,920 --> 01:24:27,760
extension outside of Israel. So, I mean, he's an important

1457
01:24:27,920 --> 01:24:31,600
historical figure, but you know, he's not He's only referenced

1458
01:24:31,680 --> 01:24:33,399
like in the Book of Ezra that no'more, maybe in

1459
01:24:33,399 --> 01:24:35,600
a couple other places, So he's not a huge figure

1460
01:24:35,600 --> 01:24:39,560
in terms of the text themselves. And so why or

1461
01:24:39,600 --> 01:24:41,199
where they would have come up with the idea that

1462
01:24:41,359 --> 01:24:44,760
anybody takes Ezra to be a son of God or

1463
01:24:44,800 --> 01:24:50,640
a Messiah. Maybe because maybe he had heard that Jews

1464
01:24:50,760 --> 01:24:55,079
believe that God is the father to Israel, and thus

1465
01:24:55,279 --> 01:24:58,520
Israel is a son of God. That maybe that's the

1466
01:24:58,560 --> 01:25:02,119
explanation for the passage Ezra as son of God. And

1467
01:25:02,279 --> 01:25:04,920
then but but no Jew thinks that Ezra was the

1468
01:25:05,000 --> 01:25:06,359
Messiah son of God.

1469
01:25:06,960 --> 01:25:09,039
Speaker 1: So I think he's also mentioned in the Book of

1470
01:25:09,199 --> 01:25:16,119
Esther And but yeah, this is a very interesting mystery.

1471
01:25:16,960 --> 01:25:19,479
There are some videos of that. There's this one guy,

1472
01:25:19,920 --> 01:25:23,279
Corey gil Schuster. He goes in and asks questions to

1473
01:25:24,520 --> 01:25:27,800
Israelis and Palestinian Arabs all the time in the streets,

1474
01:25:28,000 --> 01:25:31,039
and I think there are two videos where he goes

1475
01:25:31,079 --> 01:25:36,319
around and asks Jews if they believe Ezra, Ezra is

1476
01:25:36,359 --> 01:25:39,680
the son of God. And they're all baffled. They're like, what, wait, what,

1477
01:25:40,399 --> 01:25:41,600
I don't know what you're talking about.

1478
01:25:42,439 --> 01:25:45,159
Speaker 3: Look, I'm trying to see what what would the Koran

1479
01:25:45,239 --> 01:25:50,680
study study Bible, the Koran study Bibles. This is the

1480
01:25:50,800 --> 01:25:56,800
opinion of one Jew, someone named finnha ibn Ozra, that

1481
01:25:57,039 --> 01:26:01,119
it was the belief of some Jews that Ezra was

1482
01:26:01,159 --> 01:26:03,760
the son of God. I mean, so, so the so

1483
01:26:03,960 --> 01:26:06,399
Mohammad is taking and by the way, where does this

1484
01:26:06,479 --> 01:26:08,600
come from? This idea that this is from a certain

1485
01:26:08,680 --> 01:26:14,279
Jew called finnha Azura, that some Jews believed that Ezra

1486
01:26:14,439 --> 01:26:18,079
was son of God. However, this this belief eventually disappeared.

1487
01:26:18,600 --> 01:26:20,720
That's funny because this is similar to their claim that,

1488
01:26:21,560 --> 01:26:24,760
oh the real this is what the Daalwa guys that

1489
01:26:24,920 --> 01:26:27,640
the fontane guy. Have you heard his new explanation he's saying.

1490
01:26:28,199 --> 01:26:30,520
He's saying that, well, when the Bible talks or when

1491
01:26:30,560 --> 01:26:33,520
the Koran talks about the checking the Koran with the

1492
01:26:33,640 --> 01:26:36,640
Torah and and jeel, this is a Torah and in

1493
01:26:36,760 --> 01:26:39,279
jel that existed in Medina at that time that no

1494
01:26:39,319 --> 01:26:44,520
one has anymore. That's the explanation. Yeah, right, but if

1495
01:26:44,560 --> 01:26:47,000
you remember the Koran says, you check it with what

1496
01:26:47,199 --> 01:26:50,520
they have among them. Right, Well, how could Jews do

1497
01:26:50,680 --> 01:26:53,199
this and Christians do this if it was only this

1498
01:26:54,319 --> 01:26:58,119
minuscule unknown Torah and in Ingeel in Medina that no

1499
01:26:58,159 --> 01:27:01,439
one else in the world has or has anymore. Yeah, yeah,

1500
01:27:01,840 --> 01:27:05,039
basically a pointless challenge or confirmation.

1501
01:27:05,359 --> 01:27:07,159
Speaker 1: It doesn't make any sense. Also given the given the

1502
01:27:07,239 --> 01:27:13,159
fact that the Quran basically acknowledges and endorses and guarantees,

1503
01:27:13,640 --> 01:27:16,239
you know, safety in the hereafter to Jews and Christians

1504
01:27:16,279 --> 01:27:20,319
initially and doesn't ever bring up any issue with the

1505
01:27:20,399 --> 01:27:25,279
scripture that they follow. And you have to assume and

1506
01:27:25,439 --> 01:27:29,039
given all the versions about Jews and Christians and the

1507
01:27:29,159 --> 01:27:32,920
and the scripture, that that the scripture they have Jews

1508
01:27:33,000 --> 01:27:36,359
and Christians at that time in general is okay, is good,

1509
01:27:36,760 --> 01:27:41,920
is acceptable, and that scripture is we have it. We

1510
01:27:42,079 --> 01:27:44,520
have the contents of the Torah and the Gospel from

1511
01:27:44,520 --> 01:27:46,399
long before Muhammed exactly.

1512
01:27:47,079 --> 01:27:49,399
Speaker 3: Just the fact that we have so many manuscripts prior

1513
01:27:49,479 --> 01:27:52,439
to the existence of Muhammad disproves this whole sol er.

1514
01:27:52,520 --> 01:27:53,920
But what I'm saying is like it seems like the

1515
01:27:54,039 --> 01:27:57,720
same type of ad hoc answer that they exactly. Oh

1516
01:27:57,800 --> 01:28:01,119
so this was a specific Jew who believe that there

1517
01:28:01,199 --> 01:28:03,359
was a sect of Jews that thought that Ezra was

1518
01:28:03,439 --> 01:28:05,439
the son of God and that they don't exist anymore.

1519
01:28:05,920 --> 01:28:08,439
Speaker 1: The problem with that explanation, which I which I heard

1520
01:28:08,840 --> 01:28:11,960
a lot, is the following hadith here. It's a very

1521
01:28:12,000 --> 01:28:13,520
long hardith. I'm not going to read the whole thing

1522
01:28:14,399 --> 01:28:18,840
Sahibukari seven four three nine. And if you go through

1523
01:28:18,920 --> 01:28:22,920
this hadith, there is here is Mohammed explaining to his

1524
01:28:23,119 --> 01:28:26,439
followers what will happen on the day of Resurrection. And

1525
01:28:26,560 --> 01:28:30,520
then it describes how the Christians and the Jews will

1526
01:28:30,560 --> 01:28:33,840
be brought before Allah and what Allah will do to them,

1527
01:28:33,880 --> 01:28:39,920
and he will ask them questions. It says, So then

1528
01:28:40,039 --> 01:28:41,880
Hell will it be presented to them as if it

1529
01:28:41,920 --> 01:28:44,159
were a mirage. And it will be said to the Jews,

1530
01:28:45,159 --> 01:28:48,520
what did you used to worship? They will reply, we

1531
01:28:48,720 --> 01:28:51,000
used to worship Ezra, the son of Allah.

1532
01:28:53,399 --> 01:28:56,319
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's a great point, and that's which how eth

1533
01:28:56,399 --> 01:28:57,399
is that gonna make a note of that?

1534
01:28:59,560 --> 01:29:05,079
Speaker 1: Sa Hippocari is seven nine, or you can probably easier

1535
01:29:05,159 --> 01:29:10,520
find it with these references here. Volume nine, book ninety

1536
01:29:10,560 --> 01:29:13,199
three five three to two. But yeah, this this clearly

1537
01:29:13,279 --> 01:29:16,119
says and it correctly points out this year. For example,

1538
01:29:16,159 --> 01:29:18,520
it says, it will be said to the Christians, what

1539
01:29:18,680 --> 01:29:21,159
did you used to worship? They will reply, we used

1540
01:29:21,199 --> 01:29:24,159
to worship Messiah, the son of our Law. It seems

1541
01:29:24,199 --> 01:29:25,880
to go into the right direction here where it comes

1542
01:29:25,920 --> 01:29:28,439
to Christians, but it makes an equivalence between them and

1543
01:29:28,560 --> 01:29:31,439
Jews and says that Jews will say, we used to

1544
01:29:31,520 --> 01:29:33,760
worship Asrall, as son of our Law. And if it

1545
01:29:33,920 --> 01:29:36,399
was just one Jew or just a few Jews here

1546
01:29:36,439 --> 01:29:41,439
and there, why would this make a generalize Jews. Yeah, exactly, exactly,

1547
01:29:42,079 --> 01:29:47,039
And this just shows how how there was really some

1548
01:29:47,199 --> 01:29:49,960
confusion going on. And I would say because of this,

1549
01:29:51,039 --> 01:29:55,159
just this verse in chapter nine, verse thirty is very

1550
01:29:55,319 --> 01:30:01,600
strong evidence the Quran is and ignorantly written or authored

1551
01:30:01,640 --> 01:30:04,479
book that it definitely does not come from a divine source.

1552
01:30:05,800 --> 01:30:18,399
Yeah exactly, Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. Another question is, uh, okay,

1553
01:30:20,800 --> 01:30:22,279
I was going to bring up sister of Aaron. Have

1554
01:30:22,359 --> 01:30:27,119
you heard of this, the argument about Mary in the Quran? Yeah, okay.

1555
01:30:27,319 --> 01:30:31,439
The Quran refers to Mary as mother Mary, mother of Jesus,

1556
01:30:31,720 --> 01:30:36,399
as a sister of Aaron, which is of course very

1557
01:30:36,439 --> 01:30:41,880
strange because yeah, mother Mary didn't have a brother named Aaron.

1558
01:30:42,319 --> 01:30:47,039
We do, however, have another character named Mary Miriam, also

1559
01:30:47,319 --> 01:30:53,920
known as Miriam in the Bible. Yeah, and that that

1560
01:30:54,039 --> 01:30:56,000
seems to be. That seems to be a big issue.

1561
01:30:56,920 --> 01:31:01,359
Speaker 3: I'm trying to remember. Uh. The only response I've heard

1562
01:31:01,399 --> 01:31:05,520
to this is from when Shabi release says something like, oh, well,

1563
01:31:08,319 --> 01:31:11,279
this was a term they would use in general, like

1564
01:31:11,439 --> 01:31:15,159
sister could be any relative, anybody amongst the users, something

1565
01:31:15,239 --> 01:31:15,439
like that.

1566
01:31:15,640 --> 01:31:18,039
Speaker 1: Right, sure, sure, Yeah, for some reason, we never heard

1567
01:31:18,079 --> 01:31:19,479
of that until Muslims came up with that.

1568
01:31:19,960 --> 01:31:23,720
Speaker 3: Yeah. And also I thought the crime made everything really

1569
01:31:23,800 --> 01:31:27,880
clear exactly why is this so ambiguous here? And this

1570
01:31:28,359 --> 01:31:31,520
was obviously a very basic mistake. And if I remember that,

1571
01:31:31,680 --> 01:31:34,239
this is one of the ones that so Gabriel Site

1572
01:31:34,279 --> 01:31:37,119
Reynolds's book, which is really good, he lists about ten

1573
01:31:37,199 --> 01:31:40,159
of these problems, and this is one of the problems

1574
01:31:40,199 --> 01:31:43,960
he lists. And what's funny is that the scholarship right

1575
01:31:44,119 --> 01:31:48,119
is pretty like unanimous that this is an obvious mistake.

1576
01:31:49,279 --> 01:31:52,159
The Muslims themselves had to try to grapple with us

1577
01:31:52,239 --> 01:31:56,720
and offer these various explanations. So to me, that suggests again,

1578
01:31:56,880 --> 01:31:58,800
like the Ezra texts, no, this is a mistake.

1579
01:31:58,960 --> 01:32:03,760
Speaker 1: This is not a like you know, there is more

1580
01:32:03,800 --> 01:32:07,119
than that really complicates this issue and just points at

1581
01:32:07,399 --> 01:32:11,640
a clear mistake. For example, the fact that in chapter

1582
01:32:11,760 --> 01:32:16,159
three it describes a character named Imran who is also

1583
01:32:16,239 --> 01:32:20,079
the father of mother Mary. And it further says here

1584
01:32:20,119 --> 01:32:23,359
in chapter sixty six, verse twelve, for example, and Mary

1585
01:32:23,560 --> 01:32:27,760
the daughter of Imran, who guarded her chastity. We blew

1586
01:32:27,880 --> 01:32:31,000
into her through our angel, and she believed in the

1587
01:32:31,039 --> 01:32:34,039
words of her Lord in his scriptures. So Mary, daughter

1588
01:32:34,199 --> 01:32:39,720
of Imran and Imran happens to sound oddly similar to Amram,

1589
01:32:40,039 --> 01:32:43,640
who is in the Bible the father of Moses, Miriam,

1590
01:32:43,840 --> 01:32:47,479
and Aaron. So it must it must be a huge

1591
01:32:47,760 --> 01:32:51,760
coincidence that the Quran refers to Mother Mary as both

1592
01:32:51,920 --> 01:32:56,760
sister of Aaron and daughter of Imran. All of it

1593
01:32:56,960 --> 01:33:00,640
was just used as some weird you know, yeah.

1594
01:33:00,439 --> 01:33:03,720
Speaker 3: And and and the sixty six text here has to

1595
01:33:03,840 --> 01:33:06,439
be Mary because it's talking about virgin birth.

1596
01:33:07,039 --> 01:33:10,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, Mary, right. There's also no doubt about that

1597
01:33:10,600 --> 01:33:13,399
if you go into chapter three of the Quran, which

1598
01:33:13,640 --> 01:33:18,479
uh directly it is called Imran or Ali Imran, which

1599
01:33:18,560 --> 01:33:23,800
is the family of Imran. And it describes here how

1600
01:33:25,159 --> 01:33:28,039
how Imron and his wife had a daughter and that

1601
01:33:28,279 --> 01:33:30,760
and that was Mary, and Mary then gives birth to Jesus.

1602
01:33:31,359 --> 01:33:33,640
So that's what it describes. And and why in the

1603
01:33:33,720 --> 01:33:37,000
world where did Imron come from? How in the world

1604
01:33:37,159 --> 01:33:39,680
does it happen that Imron sounds like Amram and it

1605
01:33:39,760 --> 01:33:41,359
is assumed to be the Arabic of Amram.

1606
01:33:43,399 --> 01:33:46,840
Speaker 3: That's the great point. I didn't notice this Imron point there. Yeah,

1607
01:33:47,079 --> 01:33:49,279
this is a Reynolds might mention that I just forgot.

1608
01:33:49,680 --> 01:33:52,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a very very strong argument against us. Yeah,

1609
01:33:52,760 --> 01:33:55,880
where it's they are a little bit dumb found that

1610
01:33:55,920 --> 01:33:57,079
when they try to defend.

1611
01:33:56,800 --> 01:34:00,359
Speaker 3: It, well, you know, and to be again, just back

1612
01:34:00,439 --> 01:34:04,239
that point up, like if you're a Christian or a Jew,

1613
01:34:04,479 --> 01:34:07,520
and you know the history of these texts, particularly with

1614
01:34:07,960 --> 01:34:10,920
the Torah and the history of Moses' family, and if

1615
01:34:10,960 --> 01:34:12,960
you're a Christian, you know the Gospel of Luke, like,

1616
01:34:14,479 --> 01:34:18,119
you wouldn't make this mistake, right, you wouldn't speak this way.

1617
01:34:18,439 --> 01:34:21,239
But that's just another attestation to the fact that the

1618
01:34:21,319 --> 01:34:24,640
Koran is actually just mixing up what's in the prior

1619
01:34:24,720 --> 01:34:26,960
revelation exactly exactly.

1620
01:34:29,000 --> 01:34:33,520
Speaker 1: Two final questions. One would be, what do you think

1621
01:34:33,560 --> 01:34:36,359
about the fact that the Christians corrupted the Bible by

1622
01:34:36,399 --> 01:34:38,600
removing the Book of Council of Nicea from.

1623
01:34:38,479 --> 01:34:43,840
Speaker 3: It, the Book of Council of Nicia. Well, that's funny

1624
01:34:43,880 --> 01:34:46,119
because that, you know, it is so three twenty five

1625
01:34:46,199 --> 01:34:49,319
AD is pretty late, because we would say that all

1626
01:34:49,399 --> 01:34:52,159
the New Testament texts were pretty much completed by the

1627
01:34:52,239 --> 01:34:54,359
death of John, which is around you know, the year

1628
01:34:54,359 --> 01:34:57,840
one hundred or so, So there wouldn't be any new

1629
01:34:58,520 --> 01:35:04,439
texts after that time, at least what becomes the New Testament,

1630
01:35:05,439 --> 01:35:07,520
even though we don't have the actual what are called

1631
01:35:07,520 --> 01:35:11,680
autograph of the original things that Paul wrote. Just like Jews,

1632
01:35:11,800 --> 01:35:14,880
Christians believe in tradition, so we believe in an oral tradition.

1633
01:35:15,000 --> 01:35:17,279
We believe in a written tradition, even outside of what

1634
01:35:17,439 --> 01:35:21,680
we call the texts, and so there were there was

1635
01:35:21,840 --> 01:35:26,560
no new Gospels or anything that would be added post

1636
01:35:26,720 --> 01:35:29,039
death of the Apostles. For us, that's the deposit of

1637
01:35:29,079 --> 01:35:31,680
the faith. It's complete when the Apostles died, Jude says,

1638
01:35:32,279 --> 01:35:34,880
contend for the faith once we're all delivered to the saints.

1639
01:35:34,960 --> 01:35:37,359
That means there's a completed body of doctrines that's not

1640
01:35:37,640 --> 01:35:41,479
just written, it's also oral amongst the apostles. That for

1641
01:35:41,600 --> 01:35:45,039
us is the Apostolic faith, the upsolde deposit. So I

1642
01:35:45,079 --> 01:35:49,720
don't know what that's even referring to. Is this something

1643
01:35:49,800 --> 01:35:52,119
that is in a Hudeeth or something like this?

1644
01:35:52,239 --> 01:35:54,119
Speaker 1: Is this is something that is even better than how

1645
01:35:54,159 --> 01:35:55,359
do youth and Kuran? This is what's what?

1646
01:35:55,680 --> 01:35:55,800
Speaker 4: Uh?

1647
01:35:56,439 --> 01:36:02,840
Speaker 1: The great scholar Sneako recently several several months ago when

1648
01:36:02,880 --> 01:36:05,720
he was discussing with a Christian and she was citing

1649
01:36:05,840 --> 01:36:09,119
the book matt which he didn't know what it refers to.

1650
01:36:10,520 --> 01:36:12,439
Speaker 4: We have the original manuscripts from the Bible.

1651
01:36:15,279 --> 01:36:20,319
Speaker 2: Have you heard of the Council of Nicea. There's been

1652
01:36:20,359 --> 01:36:21,960
a lot of chapters that have been removed, and the

1653
01:36:22,039 --> 01:36:24,199
Bible has been tampered and manipulated with a lot over

1654
01:36:24,239 --> 01:36:24,600
the years.

1655
01:36:24,680 --> 01:36:26,720
Speaker 5: And you could argue about specific people who might have

1656
01:36:26,760 --> 01:36:29,720
tampered with it. But it's definitely been changed.

1657
01:36:30,880 --> 01:36:33,520
Speaker 4: I mean you could say that, but still the original

1658
01:36:34,600 --> 01:36:36,000
the original things are still there.

1659
01:36:36,479 --> 01:36:41,479
Speaker 2: So most people haven't read the original version, you know,

1660
01:36:41,600 --> 01:36:44,159
like most of the factions of Christianity, the different ones

1661
01:36:44,159 --> 01:36:46,159
they go off of the manipulator versions. That's why there's

1662
01:36:46,159 --> 01:36:48,479
so many different sets of Christianity and there's only pretty

1663
01:36:48,520 --> 01:36:49,880
much one. Like you're either and most of them you're not.

1664
01:36:50,079 --> 01:36:52,760
Islam is very consistent, like I know, there's small things

1665
01:36:52,800 --> 01:36:55,840
like Sony and Hia, but overall it's just either small things.

1666
01:36:55,680 --> 01:36:58,039
Speaker 1: Yeah, small things, it's very very small things.

1667
01:36:58,079 --> 01:36:58,319
Speaker 5: Okay.

1668
01:37:00,159 --> 01:37:01,199
Speaker 3: The Bible is pretty simple too.

1669
01:37:01,239 --> 01:37:03,520
Speaker 4: You just gotta keep the commandments and follow Christ.

1670
01:37:03,720 --> 01:37:05,600
Speaker 5: Depends on the version of the Bible you're talking about.

1671
01:37:06,479 --> 01:37:08,920
Speaker 2: What other versions of the Bible are. There's so many,

1672
01:37:08,960 --> 01:37:12,359
bro Okay, tell me some. Okay, let's look up versions

1673
01:37:12,359 --> 01:37:15,720
of the Bible. We have the King James version, the

1674
01:37:15,800 --> 01:37:18,039
English Standard version, the translation.

1675
01:37:19,079 --> 01:37:21,520
Speaker 1: You know, you know, but there's so many different translations. Man.

1676
01:37:21,600 --> 01:37:24,079
Speaker 4: So the funny thing about all those different versions, but

1677
01:37:24,960 --> 01:37:26,880
they're all just different translations, buddy.

1678
01:37:30,359 --> 01:37:31,960
Speaker 5: So which one, which one do you know is short?

1679
01:37:32,279 --> 01:37:33,479
Is the one to go by?

1680
01:37:34,880 --> 01:37:37,319
Speaker 3: The version?

1681
01:37:38,239 --> 01:37:41,399
Speaker 1: That's interesting. We have to sell international version, pick twelve

1682
01:37:41,479 --> 01:37:44,359
version as up to same version, the Harlem version and

1683
01:37:44,399 --> 01:37:46,239
so on were in.

1684
01:37:46,359 --> 01:37:49,199
Speaker 5: Those parts of the Bible Council of Nice.

1685
01:37:50,760 --> 01:37:51,199
Speaker 3: Tampered.

1686
01:37:51,399 --> 01:37:53,119
Speaker 1: But it's just it's just a retranslation.

1687
01:37:53,199 --> 01:37:54,119
Speaker 3: That doesn't mean tampered.

1688
01:37:55,119 --> 01:37:57,239
Speaker 2: It's been translated seven hundred and twenty four languages. Well,

1689
01:37:57,239 --> 01:37:59,640
they did remove the Council of Nicea from the original

1690
01:37:59,680 --> 01:38:00,600
Bible a lot.

1691
01:38:04,640 --> 01:38:06,199
Speaker 3: Okay, Yeah, this is a new one to me. I

1692
01:38:06,399 --> 01:38:10,359
like this, this is the Sneako challenge. Why did they

1693
01:38:10,520 --> 01:38:14,399
remove the Council of Nicea from the original Bible? Yeah,

1694
01:38:14,399 --> 01:38:17,479
I noticed earlier. So he's actually mixed up, which which

1695
01:38:17,560 --> 01:38:20,039
is usually like a Baptist seven day Adventist argument. They

1696
01:38:20,079 --> 01:38:22,640
always say, oh, the Council of Nicea happened, and they

1697
01:38:22,760 --> 01:38:25,279
tampered with the books and they changed everything, and it's

1698
01:38:25,319 --> 01:38:28,640
all this new stuff. Also, Joe's witnesses use that argument

1699
01:38:28,680 --> 01:38:31,159
too to try to say that Trinity was invented by Nicia.

1700
01:38:31,239 --> 01:38:33,920
So he's actually jumbled up what is a like a

1701
01:38:34,000 --> 01:38:40,159
Protestant even aryan argument. And then it turns into no,

1702
01:38:40,279 --> 01:38:42,319
there was this Council of Nicea that was part of

1703
01:38:42,399 --> 01:38:46,279
the Bible. That was he's actually like doubled up his

1704
01:38:47,560 --> 01:38:48,720
mistaken understanding.

1705
01:38:49,239 --> 01:38:53,359
Speaker 1: Yeah, he heard the standard narrative that's some people falsely

1706
01:38:53,399 --> 01:38:55,880
present about the Council of Nicea, and then he totally

1707
01:38:55,920 --> 01:38:57,840
misunderstood it and he goes on.

1708
01:38:58,000 --> 01:39:00,000
Speaker 4: You're saying there's a chapter, there's a book called the Council,

1709
01:39:00,039 --> 01:39:00,600
than I fear.

1710
01:39:01,640 --> 01:39:04,520
Speaker 5: Yeah, it's not. There's not no book called the con

1711
01:39:05,600 --> 01:39:07,640
it's it's not a whole book, but it's.

1712
01:39:09,800 --> 01:39:12,960
Speaker 4: They have books like they had a counsel, they have

1713
01:39:13,079 --> 01:39:17,039
the Apocrypher. I have an Apocrypheruh, you have a book

1714
01:39:17,039 --> 01:39:19,439
of knock Yeah, the so yeah.

1715
01:39:19,479 --> 01:39:21,720
Speaker 1: This was Stego's brilliant moment here where he pointed out

1716
01:39:21,840 --> 01:39:23,880
that they removed the Book of Counsel of Nicia.

1717
01:39:24,600 --> 01:39:28,560
Speaker 3: And I think, I guess I'm going to become a

1718
01:39:28,640 --> 01:39:29,920
muzzle now, because.

1719
01:39:32,000 --> 01:39:34,640
Speaker 1: The thing is, I wouldn't want to pick on somebody

1720
01:39:34,640 --> 01:39:36,640
who doesn't know what the Council of thea is or

1721
01:39:36,640 --> 01:39:39,319
who makes these this suggestion, you know, in a regular discussion.

1722
01:39:39,359 --> 01:39:42,159
But when when you go on there and you go online,

1723
01:39:42,159 --> 01:39:45,319
you have a massive audience and you try to assert

1724
01:39:45,399 --> 01:39:47,800
that Christianity is false and Islam as true. And one

1725
01:39:47,840 --> 01:39:50,560
of the reasons why is that there was this Book

1726
01:39:50,600 --> 01:39:52,760
of Counsel of Nicia which they removed from the Bible.

1727
01:39:52,800 --> 01:39:54,880
Then sorry, but what what is't that?

1728
01:39:56,119 --> 01:39:57,840
Speaker 3: Yeah? There was another excellent I don't know if you

1729
01:39:57,840 --> 01:40:02,319
saw a Snico's argument about prayer beads. Uh, well, he said,

1730
01:40:02,399 --> 01:40:07,880
he said he noticed that Buddhists use prayer beads and

1731
01:40:08,079 --> 01:40:11,680
Muslims have these prayer beads, and so he says, so

1732
01:40:11,760 --> 01:40:14,319
we're worshiping the same God because we're all using the

1733
01:40:14,399 --> 01:40:18,039
same beads. I'm being serious. I thought that was one

1734
01:40:18,039 --> 01:40:24,439
of my favorite sneako apologetic arguments. So I'm not joking.

1735
01:40:25,319 --> 01:40:31,359
I thought that was a good argument. Also, so a

1736
01:40:31,439 --> 01:40:33,600
bunch of Satanists or you know, like if a Satanist

1737
01:40:33,680 --> 01:40:38,359
worships one God, then we're all worshiping one God. We're

1738
01:40:38,399 --> 01:40:39,960
all wors to the same God because it's one God.

1739
01:40:41,159 --> 01:40:43,439
Speaker 1: I I recently looked up the history of prayer beads

1740
01:40:43,560 --> 01:40:47,119
to figure out when Muslims adopted it and who came

1741
01:40:47,199 --> 01:40:51,880
up with it first. The first prayer beads are so old,

1742
01:40:52,800 --> 01:40:55,960
and Muslims simply adopted it, most likely from from from

1743
01:40:56,079 --> 01:41:00,720
Christians and then started using him it's not even the

1744
01:41:01,239 --> 01:41:04,680
it's it wasn't even a thing in early in early Islam. Yeah,

1745
01:41:04,800 --> 01:41:07,359
so what a stupid argument.

1746
01:41:11,399 --> 01:41:13,239
Speaker 3: I don't know if you noticed, but he had another

1747
01:41:13,439 --> 01:41:17,159
sort of flop the other day where he put up

1748
01:41:17,159 --> 01:41:21,600
an argument that Jesus was a Unitarian because he cited

1749
01:41:21,800 --> 01:41:25,199
Deuteronomy as the greatest commandment, loved the lords your God.

1750
01:41:26,079 --> 01:41:28,319
And then I give him a bunch of other texts

1751
01:41:28,720 --> 01:41:31,119
where I said, yeah, but you understand that that's admitting

1752
01:41:31,520 --> 01:41:35,319
our position, because in the Gospel of Mark, Jesus affirms

1753
01:41:35,359 --> 01:41:38,439
his own deity by saying that he can forgive sins,

1754
01:41:38,479 --> 01:41:40,039
that he's the Lord of the Sabbath, that he will

1755
01:41:40,079 --> 01:41:43,760
come in glory on the in the second coming. And

1756
01:41:43,840 --> 01:41:45,560
he ended up taking it down. So he had so

1757
01:41:45,680 --> 01:41:50,159
many In other words, he's just a funny character because

1758
01:41:50,359 --> 01:41:53,560
you know, he constantly puts up these really bad arguments

1759
01:41:53,600 --> 01:41:56,159
and goofy things, and then he'll end up taking them.

1760
01:41:56,079 --> 01:41:58,159
Speaker 1: Down and why why would you do this? There there

1761
01:41:58,199 --> 01:42:02,239
are some they have been assertions that he was paid

1762
01:42:02,319 --> 01:42:05,600
some high sums of money for to convert and publicly

1763
01:42:05,680 --> 01:42:07,479
declare that he's a Muslim and to do this kind

1764
01:42:07,479 --> 01:42:09,279
of stuff. I can't say that that is that is

1765
01:42:09,439 --> 01:42:12,439
that is absolutely true, But it doesn't make sense that

1766
01:42:13,760 --> 01:42:17,760
that somebody with such a great lack of knowledge on

1767
01:42:17,960 --> 01:42:24,039
basic things would convert to Islam and then start immediately

1768
01:42:24,239 --> 01:42:26,600
talking about it as if he knew what he's talking about,

1769
01:42:27,079 --> 01:42:30,560
and then attempting to refute the Bible when he doesn't

1770
01:42:30,600 --> 01:42:33,520
even know what Matt refers to and what the Council

1771
01:42:33,520 --> 01:42:37,920
of Nicia actually is, thinking that it's a book, it's

1772
01:42:38,039 --> 01:42:41,720
it's just it's so silly. And this is what really

1773
01:42:41,760 --> 01:42:42,399
gets get.

1774
01:42:42,960 --> 01:42:46,279
Speaker 3: I remember right around the time, and again, this is

1775
01:42:46,359 --> 01:42:49,000
just what was reported to be true, allegedly. I don't

1776
01:42:49,000 --> 01:42:50,199
know if it is actually true, but there was a

1777
01:42:50,279 --> 01:42:52,680
story that you know, Tate went and ate with and

1778
01:42:52,760 --> 01:42:57,319
had dinner with Saudi royals and then suspicious, oh suddenly

1779
01:42:57,399 --> 01:43:02,520
after that, there's this gigantic push online for Islam. I've

1780
01:43:02,560 --> 01:43:05,880
always assumed, or it's been my thesis that I think

1781
01:43:05,960 --> 01:43:09,880
probably the Saudis are in some way pushing Islam through

1782
01:43:09,920 --> 01:43:12,000
the Internet, through the West, through these people that we're

1783
01:43:12,000 --> 01:43:12,560
talking about.

1784
01:43:12,960 --> 01:43:16,359
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. There was also a clip where when Tristan

1785
01:43:16,479 --> 01:43:21,000
Tate had an interview. I failed to remember who it was.

1786
01:43:21,079 --> 01:43:23,159
I think it might have been on Patrick bet David,

1787
01:43:23,199 --> 01:43:26,159
but when he was talking to him, Tristan mentioned something

1788
01:43:26,279 --> 01:43:31,880
very briefly about Islam. He said that he had been

1789
01:43:32,640 --> 01:43:36,119
offered benefits and a lot of things, you know, in

1790
01:43:36,199 --> 01:43:39,640
the Middle East for converting to Islam. But he said,

1791
01:43:39,680 --> 01:43:41,520
but of course I didn't accept it because I know

1792
01:43:41,920 --> 01:43:44,199
it wouldn't be genuine of me to accept such a

1793
01:43:44,279 --> 01:43:46,439
thing and to convert to Islam for that. But then

1794
01:43:46,479 --> 01:43:49,319
of course the question that horizis is what about your brother?

1795
01:43:49,560 --> 01:43:52,439
Speaker 3: Yeah? Well yeah, so.

1796
01:43:54,039 --> 01:43:56,239
Speaker 1: They're not very smart. So it's kind of looks like

1797
01:43:56,319 --> 01:43:59,479
he's telling on his brother without realizing it in that moment.

1798
01:44:00,159 --> 01:44:03,399
But this is all just speculation. We don't know. We

1799
01:44:03,720 --> 01:44:07,479
don't know anyway. Just the final thing that I have

1800
01:44:07,880 --> 01:44:10,840
for you, and I want to actually organize another conversation

1801
01:44:10,920 --> 01:44:15,000
with you to specifically talk about Christianity and what to

1802
01:44:15,079 --> 01:44:19,439
believe and all that. But my final question, just to

1803
01:44:19,520 --> 01:44:22,399
finalize this is why are you Christian?

1804
01:44:24,800 --> 01:44:28,079
Speaker 3: I'm not today. I've had to renounce all that and

1805
01:44:28,159 --> 01:44:32,800
become a Muslim because of the powerful Padis and sneak

1806
01:44:32,840 --> 01:44:37,119
o argumentation that's been given. So you actually, I thought

1807
01:44:37,119 --> 01:44:39,159
your channel was against Islam, and you hear you are

1808
01:44:39,239 --> 01:44:41,479
converting me out of Christianity.

1809
01:44:41,600 --> 01:44:43,399
Speaker 1: So it's because I'm being paid by.

1810
01:44:44,520 --> 01:44:47,720
Speaker 3: You, were being paid to actually be a Muslim show.

1811
01:44:47,840 --> 01:44:52,000
Speaker 1: Wow, exactly exactly. But but if we are to make

1812
01:44:52,079 --> 01:44:56,800
it serious I don't know if you even can can

1813
01:44:56,960 --> 01:44:59,039
answer this or if we should do this for the

1814
01:44:59,119 --> 01:45:01,039
next time. But if you words to tell me in

1815
01:45:02,039 --> 01:45:05,640
within like one minute, in one minute, why I should

1816
01:45:06,079 --> 01:45:06,840
be a Christian?

1817
01:45:06,920 --> 01:45:12,600
Speaker 3: For example, well you asked why I am? I mean

1818
01:45:12,720 --> 01:45:15,840
in my own life. There's a personal, sort of subjective

1819
01:45:15,920 --> 01:45:18,279
side to this, to where you know, I believe that

1820
01:45:18,439 --> 01:45:21,760
throughout my life my many prayers have been answered. I

1821
01:45:21,840 --> 01:45:25,720
do believe that God has blessed me, has has given

1822
01:45:25,760 --> 01:45:30,239
me all the the things that I need. He's been

1823
01:45:30,479 --> 01:45:35,159
a loving deity to me. So those are the personal

1824
01:45:35,239 --> 01:45:38,399
subjective reasons. That's not the only reasons. I think in

1825
01:45:38,520 --> 01:45:42,960
terms of like apologetics and public public reasonings and proofs,

1826
01:45:43,039 --> 01:45:46,159
I think that the dozens and dozens and dozens, there's

1827
01:45:46,199 --> 01:45:49,319
not just five or six like most evangelicals think. There's

1828
01:45:49,399 --> 01:45:52,640
dozens and dozens of Messianic prophecies that are very precise.

1829
01:45:53,600 --> 01:45:56,000
I don't think those could have been faked or staged

1830
01:45:56,199 --> 01:46:00,840
or you know, made up afterwards. Those are very strong proofs.

1831
01:46:01,159 --> 01:46:04,119
Those were I think the strongest things that I always

1832
01:46:04,159 --> 01:46:08,199
found the most convincing about Christianity. There's philosophical argumentation that

1833
01:46:08,279 --> 01:46:10,800
I think is convincing. The transcendental argument is something I

1834
01:46:10,840 --> 01:46:14,520
always point to. So those are the main reasons why

1835
01:46:14,600 --> 01:46:17,000
I personally am am Christian, and to other people, I

1836
01:46:17,039 --> 01:46:19,720
would say, I think that it's true. So you know,

1837
01:46:19,800 --> 01:46:24,119
if you want to find a basis for, for example,

1838
01:46:24,199 --> 01:46:27,680
in the philosophical sense, the things that we rely on

1839
01:46:27,920 --> 01:46:31,119
to do science, to do logic, to do you know, calculations,

1840
01:46:31,159 --> 01:46:36,520
all that we use, principles that can't be reduced to matter.

1841
01:46:36,760 --> 01:46:40,479
There are immaterial things, there's universals, there's laws of logic.

1842
01:46:41,000 --> 01:46:43,239
Those things I think make the most sense. They're most

1843
01:46:43,319 --> 01:46:46,600
coherent in a worldview where you have a personal deity,

1844
01:46:46,960 --> 01:46:48,800
and I think that that points us in the direction

1845
01:46:48,880 --> 01:46:50,920
of Christianity. There's a lot of other arguments that kind

1846
01:46:50,920 --> 01:46:52,560
of go along with that. Maybe we'll talk about that

1847
01:46:52,600 --> 01:46:54,800
next time. But those are some of the reasons why

1848
01:46:55,239 --> 01:46:57,159
I'm a Christian, why I think other people should.

1849
01:46:56,960 --> 01:46:59,640
Speaker 1: Be very nice. Thank you. I want to invite you

1850
01:46:59,680 --> 01:47:04,680
again another time to have a conversation about Christianity, about

1851
01:47:04,720 --> 01:47:06,960
God that I would be personally very very interested in.

1852
01:47:08,319 --> 01:47:10,800
Are you cool with going through super chets here? We

1853
01:47:10,880 --> 01:47:18,000
have about twenty of them. Our s okay, shake Mike Wingling, says, Jaye, dummy.

1854
01:47:18,119 --> 01:47:20,800
The guy that thinks one plus one plus twenty plus

1855
01:47:20,880 --> 01:47:24,399
three this is true doesn't know Arabic and thinks the

1856
01:47:24,479 --> 01:47:29,760
CIA wrote the time one instead of Masade. No thanks,

1857
01:47:29,800 --> 01:47:31,600
I'll take my tifts here from for Reid.

1858
01:47:32,960 --> 01:47:37,239
Speaker 3: Well, you know, it's like I always point out, all right,

1859
01:47:37,239 --> 01:47:38,960
I mean I think that guy's kidding obviously, but.

1860
01:47:39,199 --> 01:47:40,159
Speaker 1: Like, yeah, yeah, it's true.

1861
01:47:40,399 --> 01:47:43,319
Speaker 3: So here these are So people think, oh, you can't

1862
01:47:43,359 --> 01:47:45,880
have something that's one and three. Are you sure about that?

1863
01:47:46,079 --> 01:47:48,880
Because I could give you three examples. One times one

1864
01:47:48,920 --> 01:47:51,600
times one Is that equal three? I wrote that wrong.

1865
01:47:51,640 --> 01:47:55,920
It's supposed to be one one. Excuse me, one to

1866
01:47:56,000 --> 01:47:56,680
the third power?

1867
01:47:57,119 --> 01:47:57,880
Speaker 4: Is all right?

1868
01:47:57,920 --> 01:48:00,640
Speaker 3: So these are all like examples of what like, this

1869
01:48:00,840 --> 01:48:04,000
is one thing, but it's also three things. Right, this

1870
01:48:04,199 --> 01:48:06,199
is one, but it's also raised to the third power.

1871
01:48:06,319 --> 01:48:09,399
It's still one. Right, This is one time one times one,

1872
01:48:09,439 --> 01:48:12,840
and that's still one. So it's actually pretty obvious that

1873
01:48:13,000 --> 01:48:15,560
even in the created realm, something can be one and

1874
01:48:15,800 --> 01:48:18,600
many at the same time and it doesn't involve a contradiction.

1875
01:48:19,279 --> 01:48:21,800
And so why would we think that necessarily there's a

1876
01:48:21,880 --> 01:48:24,640
contradiction between God being both one.

1877
01:48:24,600 --> 01:48:28,239
Speaker 1: And many, but this is a perfect opportunity for Muslims.

1878
01:48:29,840 --> 01:48:34,520
Just take this clip from before Jake made the correction, and.

1879
01:48:34,600 --> 01:48:41,039
Speaker 6: Then right, it's still bad that we got him Jay

1880
01:48:41,720 --> 01:48:44,800
refute exposed to unity by actually the.

1881
01:48:46,640 --> 01:48:49,439
Speaker 1: Shake. Yeah, Dick, which sounds like a very interesting name,

1882
01:48:49,520 --> 01:48:53,119
said j D. Would asking if God is all powerful

1883
01:48:53,199 --> 01:48:55,960
be a good argument against God not able to become flesh.

1884
01:48:58,680 --> 01:49:01,560
Speaker 3: This is a little more complex because I think what

1885
01:49:01,760 --> 01:49:05,039
we mean by all powerful will be limited and dictated

1886
01:49:05,119 --> 01:49:08,359
by the worldview or the theology that we have. So,

1887
01:49:08,479 --> 01:49:11,640
for example, attempts atheists say stuff like, oh, if God's

1888
01:49:11,640 --> 01:49:14,640
all powerful powerful, could he make himself not exist? And

1889
01:49:14,720 --> 01:49:17,880
we would say no, because that's not what if God

1890
01:49:18,000 --> 01:49:21,960
exists all powerful means. So it's going to be limited

1891
01:49:22,159 --> 01:49:26,319
and conditioned by the being who is the ground and

1892
01:49:26,359 --> 01:49:31,840
the ultimate authority in that worldview. So what's possible for

1893
01:49:31,920 --> 01:49:33,600
God and not possible for God is going to be

1894
01:49:33,640 --> 01:49:35,960
determined by what kind of God you believe in. And

1895
01:49:36,039 --> 01:49:40,239
in the Christian scheme, there's nothing inherently impossible for the

1896
01:49:40,319 --> 01:49:42,439
second person, the God at entering the de time and space.

1897
01:49:43,479 --> 01:49:45,079
So I don't know if I would immediately go with

1898
01:49:45,159 --> 01:49:45,680
that route.

1899
01:49:46,760 --> 01:49:52,760
Speaker 1: M Yeah. One problem that recently arose on Twitter was

1900
01:49:52,960 --> 01:49:59,439
that God necessarily cannot eat a sandwich, therefore Christianity is

1901
01:49:59,520 --> 01:50:01,520
false something like that.

1902
01:50:02,000 --> 01:50:04,319
Speaker 3: What if God has a human nature that's full of

1903
01:50:04,439 --> 01:50:06,199
human why couldn't he eat a sandwich?

1904
01:50:10,399 --> 01:50:13,800
Speaker 1: Eternal Vigilance says, thank you both for all you dude,

1905
01:50:13,840 --> 01:50:16,399
God bless you. Thank you so much. Eternal Vigilant appreciate

1906
01:50:16,439 --> 01:50:19,760
it very much. Snugwig a CP showed about a loss

1907
01:50:20,399 --> 01:50:27,119
sat on a rooster. Yeah, that's that's what I would

1908
01:50:27,119 --> 01:50:29,479
do if I was all Stefan. The pelta said, example

1909
01:50:29,520 --> 01:50:33,279
of Arabic eloquence, Mischkat and Massabi three fifteen. What are

1910
01:50:33,319 --> 01:50:40,560
you talking about? Let's see Missabi three fifteen. Come on,

1911
01:50:40,640 --> 01:50:45,600
I already did it, man, I already did it. Muawia

1912
01:50:47,079 --> 01:50:49,279
reported the prophet as saying, the eyes are the leather

1913
01:50:49,319 --> 01:50:52,119
strap of the anus, and when the eye leaps, the

1914
01:50:52,239 --> 01:50:56,439
leather strap is lucent. So this is an example of

1915
01:50:56,520 --> 01:51:02,720
the eloquence of Arabic and the great insights that Muhammad had. Uh.

1916
01:51:02,880 --> 01:51:05,640
There is a lot of philosophical stuff here that you

1917
01:51:05,720 --> 01:51:06,560
can probably.

1918
01:51:06,319 --> 01:51:10,000
Speaker 3: Dig into deep esoteric wisdom, very very deep.

1919
01:51:10,079 --> 01:51:14,319
Speaker 1: Yeah, Uh, Jesus is at the throne Muhammed is in

1920
01:51:14,439 --> 01:51:17,039
hell based. I want to please clip you.

1921
01:51:17,159 --> 01:51:19,239
Speaker 5: It is totally based, Okay.

1922
01:51:21,399 --> 01:51:25,800
Speaker 1: Joel Evers? Is that retro David oh Hi sport? It

1923
01:51:25,960 --> 01:51:30,359
is actually yeah, uh, iron kipper considering to turn the

1924
01:51:30,760 --> 01:51:33,720
considering to turn the Quran into bunny litter every time

1925
01:51:33,800 --> 01:51:37,760
there is a gin attack and upload a video of

1926
01:51:37,880 --> 01:51:40,079
my rabbit poop on it. I see, that's that's a

1927
01:51:40,079 --> 01:51:45,640
good idea, shake head, except Moslim? What is makes a girl?

1928
01:51:45,760 --> 01:51:49,119
Hawk tool and noise? Christian? Not sure most of them.

1929
01:51:49,199 --> 01:51:51,680
You see, you know absolutely nothing about child marriage.

1930
01:51:55,239 --> 01:51:57,760
Speaker 3: I like that. That is funny because in a lot

1931
01:51:57,800 --> 01:52:00,840
of debates, when it starts to get a little heated

1932
01:52:00,880 --> 01:52:05,760
for the Muslim suddenly it turns into Arab phrases, Arabic phrases,

1933
01:52:05,880 --> 01:52:08,039
and if you don't know them, then they've won the debate.

1934
01:52:09,199 --> 01:52:12,079
It is the religion for the whole world. But suddenly

1935
01:52:12,199 --> 01:52:14,960
now it's just like you have to have perfect Arabic

1936
01:52:15,039 --> 01:52:17,039
pronunciation or else you don't know anything.

1937
01:52:18,319 --> 01:52:20,399
Speaker 1: It is a it is a perfect move. It's a

1938
01:52:20,399 --> 01:52:24,520
perfect strategy. Actually, the attributes of God. I clipped this

1939
01:52:24,800 --> 01:52:27,479
from when Mohamed a Job talked to Jordan Peterson. It

1940
01:52:27,600 --> 01:52:28,479
was a perfect moment.

1941
01:52:28,800 --> 01:52:31,880
Speaker 5: The attributes of God, how are they knowable? Is that

1942
01:52:32,039 --> 01:52:34,439
only through relationship with the with the book?

1943
01:52:34,640 --> 01:52:37,279
Speaker 1: Does that also have an experiential element as far as.

1944
01:52:40,239 --> 01:52:40,479
Speaker 4: You know?

1945
01:52:48,840 --> 01:52:56,239
Speaker 1: So why why do that?

1946
01:52:56,800 --> 01:52:57,399
Speaker 5: To my question?

1947
01:52:57,560 --> 01:52:58,119
Speaker 1: In that manner?

1948
01:52:58,560 --> 01:52:59,279
Speaker 4: I don't do that?

1949
01:52:59,520 --> 01:53:03,560
Speaker 3: Thangod, this is a great club. I'm glad you played that.

1950
01:53:03,600 --> 01:53:04,359
I've forgotten about that.

1951
01:53:04,560 --> 01:53:06,600
Speaker 1: That's how do you know when that's appropriate and when

1952
01:53:06,640 --> 01:53:06,920
it's not?

1953
01:53:10,960 --> 01:53:13,479
Speaker 3: Ill this is one of the funniest dreams I've been

1954
01:53:13,560 --> 01:53:16,199
on a long time until I forgot about that club

1955
01:53:16,239 --> 01:53:18,600
and I forgot George Pierce and reactions like why'd you

1956
01:53:18,680 --> 01:53:18,920
do that?

1957
01:53:20,880 --> 01:53:28,680
Speaker 1: I don't understand the language? Oh man l two A.

1958
01:53:28,880 --> 01:53:31,039
What do Jews and Muslims think about Genesis when it

1959
01:53:31,079 --> 01:53:35,119
says let us make men in our image? Who is us?

1960
01:53:35,239 --> 01:53:35,880
Who is our?

1961
01:53:36,760 --> 01:53:38,960
Speaker 3: I can tell you that Jews have a long historic

1962
01:53:39,079 --> 01:53:42,119
debate on what the passage means. I don't know at

1963
01:53:42,159 --> 01:53:45,159
all what Muslims would say. Perhaps they would say, oh,

1964
01:53:45,199 --> 01:53:47,760
it's like the Quran, the Royal Wei, this is the angels?

1965
01:53:47,840 --> 01:53:49,119
Is that is that what they would say?

1966
01:53:50,039 --> 01:53:51,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, they would they would say, it's the it's the

1967
01:53:53,600 --> 01:53:56,880
plural of majesty and i'll o refers to him itself

1968
01:53:56,920 --> 01:53:59,399
as we as in the Kuran as well. But then

1969
01:53:59,439 --> 01:54:02,840
again you're talking about Genesis, they would say, we don't

1970
01:54:02,840 --> 01:54:07,560
know if it's authentic or not. It's been corrupted. Corrupted Yeshwa,

1971
01:54:07,640 --> 01:54:10,319
the king said, Bible's main focus is redemption. In following

1972
01:54:10,479 --> 01:54:12,880
yeahwe Yeshua. So why do we have to explain theology

1973
01:54:12,920 --> 01:54:15,199
trinity when God never focuses on expounding on them.

1974
01:54:16,600 --> 01:54:19,279
Speaker 3: Well, but he does, in fact, I mean many passages

1975
01:54:19,479 --> 01:54:22,880
of the Gospels, and particularly say John five thor nine,

1976
01:54:23,199 --> 01:54:28,279
Jesus disputes with the Pharisees about who exactly was appearing

1977
01:54:28,319 --> 01:54:30,520
in the Old Testament. In fact, he even gives this

1978
01:54:30,640 --> 01:54:34,840
dispute the essence energy distinction argument we would say as Orthodox.

1979
01:54:34,920 --> 01:54:37,399
When he talks about to the Pharisees, no one sees

1980
01:54:37,439 --> 01:54:39,920
the Father at any time, and so therefore who was

1981
01:54:40,000 --> 01:54:44,239
Moses interacting with and talking to. That's proving and arguing

1982
01:54:44,359 --> 01:54:47,239
our position as Orthodox. I think if you get into

1983
01:54:47,319 --> 01:54:50,279
John fifteen sixteen seventeen, Jesus goes into a lot of

1984
01:54:50,359 --> 01:54:54,159
depth about the relationship between the Father himself and the Spirit,

1985
01:54:54,960 --> 01:54:58,399
the eternal relationship of the procession, and then his sending

1986
01:54:58,479 --> 01:55:00,560
of the Spirit into time and space. So, in fact,

1987
01:55:00,640 --> 01:55:03,640
the New Testament, just in those passages discussed as the

1988
01:55:03,720 --> 01:55:06,960
Trinity many times over, hebres one is a lengthy discourse

1989
01:55:07,000 --> 01:55:09,000
on the relationship with the Son to the Father, that

1990
01:55:09,119 --> 01:55:11,000
the Son is not a creature. So, I mean, these

1991
01:55:11,039 --> 01:55:13,600
are just two examples of where even the New Testament

1992
01:55:13,680 --> 01:55:16,239
is debating that. The history of the Church is very

1993
01:55:16,359 --> 01:55:19,319
much concerned with that, because our salvation in the Christ

1994
01:55:19,359 --> 01:55:21,840
of You is bound up with whether Jesus is the

1995
01:55:21,880 --> 01:55:23,560
Son of God or whether he's just a man. So

1996
01:55:24,039 --> 01:55:26,600
the Bible does talk about this, and the Church fathers

1997
01:55:26,600 --> 01:55:27,520
talk about it for a reason.

1998
01:55:28,439 --> 01:55:29,920
Speaker 5: Nice, we're proud of that.

1999
01:55:32,600 --> 01:55:35,880
Speaker 1: Eric, Eric, it's small compared to Hindu and Zoroastrian books.

2000
01:55:35,920 --> 01:55:40,520
Even that's true, that's true. The Koran is tiny. Lilai

2001
01:55:40,720 --> 01:55:46,279
Squeer says, I just thought of it when I said

2002
01:55:46,319 --> 01:55:48,439
the Koran is tiny. I don't know if you've seen

2003
01:55:51,000 --> 01:55:55,279
and Andrew Wilson's I knew that's where you're gonna go. Yeah,

2004
01:55:57,479 --> 01:55:59,840
randomly came into my mind when I just said tiny.

2005
01:56:00,720 --> 01:56:05,760
H whylight square. From an Islamic perspective, what's the problem

2006
01:56:05,800 --> 01:56:08,279
with God giving most or Jesus a book containing details

2007
01:56:08,359 --> 01:56:10,479
of their deaths, their profits.

2008
01:56:10,840 --> 01:56:16,159
Speaker 3: After all, Well, I don't there's a problem. Well, you're

2009
01:56:16,159 --> 01:56:18,680
saying from the from the Islamic perspective. I think the

2010
01:56:18,760 --> 01:56:20,840
guys that I was talking to. His argument was that

2011
01:56:22,279 --> 01:56:25,840
it has to be like this. It's like Allah possesses

2012
01:56:25,920 --> 01:56:30,600
you and you spit out what is Torah? Yeah, therefore

2013
01:56:30,640 --> 01:56:33,840
you couldn't have the recounting of the death. So we

2014
01:56:33,920 --> 01:56:37,199
think Joshua added that or put that there or whatever.

2015
01:56:37,520 --> 01:56:40,399
So he's not a problem because we don't have the

2016
01:56:40,439 --> 01:56:43,600
same idea as to what I've noticed this too, And

2017
01:56:43,800 --> 01:56:45,359
I don't want to keep hold up your stream. But

2018
01:56:45,479 --> 01:56:49,800
like a lot of times, like Muslims think that everybody

2019
01:56:49,920 --> 01:56:53,800
in the Christian world has like this like dictatorial Protestant

2020
01:56:54,279 --> 01:56:58,640
interpretation of what techts are from God. Right, So it's

2021
01:56:58,680 --> 01:57:00,800
like they don't see it in the In our view,

2022
01:57:00,800 --> 01:57:03,720
it's just like the incarnation. There's a there's a synthesis

2023
01:57:03,760 --> 01:57:06,920
between the human author and what God intended to convey

2024
01:57:06,960 --> 01:57:07,800
in the divine revelation.

2025
01:57:08,760 --> 01:57:08,840
Speaker 4: Uh.

2026
01:57:08,960 --> 01:57:10,960
Speaker 3: And I think Muslims think of it like it's a

2027
01:57:11,119 --> 01:57:14,199
dictation from a lah, which is which actually is the

2028
01:57:14,279 --> 01:57:18,800
traditional Islamic position, so they think that our view is that.

2029
01:57:19,279 --> 01:57:21,279
And if you notice in the in the Daniel debate,

2030
01:57:21,399 --> 01:57:23,439
you know he was he kept arguing, like, where's your

2031
01:57:23,479 --> 01:57:27,640
original perfect text, And it's like, our position doesn't require

2032
01:57:27,720 --> 01:57:31,199
that we don't have the same idea of inscripturation as

2033
01:57:31,239 --> 01:57:34,800
you do. And he keeps foisting his his criteria, his

2034
01:57:34,920 --> 01:57:37,640
position on us. And I think that's that's a key

2035
01:57:37,720 --> 01:57:38,239
point they miss.

2036
01:57:39,079 --> 01:57:43,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's it's also I mean, even the

2037
01:57:43,720 --> 01:57:47,119
the the the Jewish perspective, the orthodox Jewish perspective would

2038
01:57:47,159 --> 01:57:51,119
be that, uh, that the Torah is as it is

2039
01:57:52,079 --> 01:57:55,039
revealed and is the word of God directly given to

2040
01:57:55,319 --> 01:57:59,439
given to Moses as as guidance. But the argument there

2041
01:57:59,720 --> 01:58:03,359
never never is that it must be uh, it must

2042
01:58:03,439 --> 01:58:07,319
be revealed in the way that Muhammad had his revelations

2043
01:58:07,399 --> 01:58:10,399
allegedly ac current to Islam. That's not the idea. It's

2044
01:58:10,479 --> 01:58:14,680
just again one of those Islamic misunderstandings of how biblical

2045
01:58:14,760 --> 01:58:16,680
tradition actually well.

2046
01:58:16,960 --> 01:58:19,239
Speaker 3: And if you look at doctor Khalil's talks like whether

2047
01:58:19,319 --> 01:58:22,600
it's the AUTHORI or the Ashari, like the their idea

2048
01:58:22,840 --> 01:58:27,079
is that Allah has this eternal Qoran with him and

2049
01:58:27,239 --> 01:58:32,039
then Gabriel just basically spits out the eternal Quran that

2050
01:58:32,159 --> 01:58:34,800
Allah wanted to be in time and space. So it's

2051
01:58:34,840 --> 01:58:37,279
like a literal, like like a program that's like an

2052
01:58:37,319 --> 01:58:40,479
ai that spits it out. Yeah, and it's not the

2053
01:58:41,039 --> 01:58:43,760
what we think is like a Lot is speaking to

2054
01:58:43,880 --> 01:58:46,239
the hearts of prophets, but they also have a human

2055
01:58:46,359 --> 01:58:48,600
element to it, to where they're writing their thoughts and

2056
01:58:48,680 --> 01:58:49,840
their their side of it too.

2057
01:58:50,359 --> 01:58:54,359
Speaker 1: Exactly exactly. For some reason, the Quran is eternal, and

2058
01:58:54,479 --> 01:58:57,199
a Lot delivers it in some shape or form through

2059
01:58:57,560 --> 01:59:01,600
through Gabriel. But also the care contains several verses that

2060
01:59:01,680 --> 01:59:06,359
are abrogated by later verses. I don't know why. Doesn't

2061
01:59:06,359 --> 01:59:09,359
make sense, but it makes sense. If Allah has a

2062
01:59:09,399 --> 01:59:12,000
perfect plan, divine merse, is it. AP is going to

2063
01:59:12,079 --> 01:59:18,359
become an author, bro so said L. L. Jk uh eighteen.

2064
01:59:18,479 --> 01:59:22,199
Ministry is high, AP. Where can I get your abridged Sahibukari?

2065
01:59:22,520 --> 01:59:24,079
Speaker 3: I needed to write that down too, because I wanted

2066
01:59:24,119 --> 01:59:24,880
to get a copy.

2067
01:59:27,359 --> 01:59:39,359
Speaker 1: Honestly, Oh yeah, there is. Let me see. I don't know.

2068
01:59:39,399 --> 01:59:41,000
I think I just ordered this from Amazon.

2069
01:59:41,319 --> 01:59:43,239
Speaker 3: I think that's what I put on my Amazon list.

2070
01:59:43,359 --> 01:59:46,439
Was I thinks, so this is this is it?

2071
01:59:48,319 --> 01:59:50,680
Speaker 1: It looks like this all in one, no repetitions in

2072
01:59:50,760 --> 01:59:54,840
this literary hadith. I'm pretty sure you can find it

2073
01:59:54,920 --> 02:00:01,039
on Amazon, honestly, Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's a pretty good

2074
02:00:01,079 --> 02:00:05,399
addition to you know, quick sources about all the hadeth

2075
02:00:05,640 --> 02:00:09,880
very very nice. Can we get a Shaky booty versus

2076
02:00:10,000 --> 02:00:12,720
move the eye to La Armine in Charlot soon? But

2077
02:00:13,079 --> 02:00:20,239
first we have to do Randy Balls versus exactly? That

2078
02:00:20,279 --> 02:00:22,760
will be the ultimate debit. The world is not ready

2079
02:00:22,760 --> 02:00:24,800
for that, man, Jack said, thank you for the laughter,

2080
02:00:25,000 --> 02:00:28,199
So neat it. Thank you for the laughter, Jackson. So,

2081
02:00:28,319 --> 02:00:31,880
Larry rosen Krawd, they fly cure disease nonsense sounds beils

2082
02:00:32,039 --> 02:00:34,840
button that is true.

2083
02:00:35,319 --> 02:00:37,199
Speaker 3: I don't know. I think I think that Muslims really

2084
02:00:37,239 --> 02:00:39,600
need to capitalize on that Jeff Goldbloom fly.

2085
02:00:43,439 --> 02:00:47,880
Speaker 1: There were some apologetics from decades ago. It still came

2086
02:00:47,960 --> 02:00:50,479
up like a decade ago or so, which explained that

2087
02:00:51,319 --> 02:00:53,960
the hadith about the fly and the soup is actually

2088
02:00:54,079 --> 02:01:00,960
a miracle because it turns out that fly, that certain

2089
02:01:01,760 --> 02:01:07,039
certain insects that fly may actually contain in their wings

2090
02:01:07,239 --> 02:01:11,199
something that you could extract to use in Uh, you know,

2091
02:01:11,359 --> 02:01:14,560
fighting or curing a certain disease. But none of it

2092
02:01:14,640 --> 02:01:16,680
actually makes sense. It doesn't talk about Hollis flies. It

2093
02:01:16,720 --> 02:01:19,279
doesn't talk about just donking them into your soup.

2094
02:01:23,399 --> 02:01:28,960
Speaker 3: Now, I remember, wasn't that didn't they Even before I

2095
02:01:29,079 --> 02:01:32,720
was interested in Islamic stuff, I remember seeing videos and books.

2096
02:01:32,760 --> 02:01:35,039
I even found a book one time, maybe fifteen years ago,

2097
02:01:35,479 --> 02:01:37,840
where they where they would argue about, oh, the you know,

2098
02:01:37,880 --> 02:01:40,159
the Koran is proven by all these miracles about the Quran,

2099
02:01:40,239 --> 02:01:43,159
and there's miracles within the Qoran. But I don't I

2100
02:01:43,199 --> 02:01:45,359
don't hear them using this argument very much.

2101
02:01:45,840 --> 02:01:49,239
Speaker 1: It has become very it has become less popular, especially

2102
02:01:49,279 --> 02:01:51,800
over the last ten years. I would say you could

2103
02:01:51,800 --> 02:01:54,800
still hear, like ten years ago, people popularly going to

2104
02:01:54,880 --> 02:01:57,560
the idea that the Kuran contains all these scientific miracles.

2105
02:01:57,960 --> 02:02:03,439
We had recently, even popular Muslim apologists like Ali Dhawa,

2106
02:02:03,520 --> 02:02:09,439
who happens to be a very big intellectual powerhouse. He said,

2107
02:02:10,920 --> 02:02:14,079
he said that the scientific miracles narrative that he himself

2108
02:02:14,119 --> 02:02:16,279
believed in it and it made him convert to Islam,

2109
02:02:16,319 --> 02:02:19,640
but it has been debunked. He explicitly said that it

2110
02:02:19,800 --> 02:02:22,439
has been debunked. That is no longer, it is not valid.

2111
02:02:22,479 --> 02:02:24,279
It's not a good point, and people shouldn't be using

2112
02:02:24,319 --> 02:02:27,800
it anymore because you can't appeal to science to prove

2113
02:02:27,840 --> 02:02:28,760
that the Quran is true.

2114
02:02:30,079 --> 02:02:34,039
Speaker 3: And when that's because of the Quran itself doesn't say

2115
02:02:34,159 --> 02:02:36,359
that you can go to science, why would they not

2116
02:02:36,479 --> 02:02:37,000
want to use that.

2117
02:02:37,760 --> 02:02:42,000
Speaker 1: Well, they developed the idea that they would be giving

2118
02:02:42,159 --> 02:02:45,279
science too much authority to judge over what is true

2119
02:02:45,279 --> 02:02:47,039
and what is not. But the problem with that is

2120
02:02:47,079 --> 02:02:51,239
that the Quran repeatedly says it repeatedly appeals to the

2121
02:02:51,359 --> 02:02:54,159
natural world and says, do they not see how we

2122
02:02:54,840 --> 02:02:57,399
how we created the heaven with no crack in it?

2123
02:02:57,760 --> 02:03:00,680
And how we did this and that? So the Quran

2124
02:03:00,760 --> 02:03:03,800
itself repeatedly appeals to science. Is a.

2125
02:03:05,520 --> 02:03:07,319
Speaker 3: Place in the Koran. I was trying to remember this, like,

2126
02:03:07,439 --> 02:03:10,319
isn't there something like where it says something like, oh,

2127
02:03:10,359 --> 02:03:13,920
if you doubt this, recite it and listen to how

2128
02:03:13,960 --> 02:03:16,800
beautiful it is, and how isn't there something like that.

2129
02:03:18,279 --> 02:03:23,000
Speaker 1: There? There are references references like that there if you

2130
02:03:23,119 --> 02:03:25,760
if you if you have doubts. I'm not sure if

2131
02:03:25,800 --> 02:03:28,359
there is a if there is a passage specifically about

2132
02:03:28,359 --> 02:03:31,520
the recitation if there is nothing like.

2133
02:03:32,000 --> 02:03:35,680
Speaker 3: How could how could this be composed the way it was?

2134
02:03:36,399 --> 02:03:38,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, it does. It makes references to that, to how

2135
02:03:39,119 --> 02:03:42,479
how beautiful and how wonderful this this text is, or

2136
02:03:42,560 --> 02:03:45,399
this this revelation, this message is, and how no one

2137
02:03:45,479 --> 02:03:49,239
can make anything like this and it is perfect. This

2138
02:03:49,399 --> 02:03:52,279
is why Also the challenge exists that nobody can bring

2139
02:03:52,439 --> 02:03:54,800
a chapter or a verse or a book that is

2140
02:03:54,920 --> 02:03:57,960
better than That's that's the one I'm trying toeah exactly exactly.

2141
02:03:58,039 --> 02:03:59,239
Speaker 3: It's a ridiculous argument.

2142
02:03:59,319 --> 02:04:03,640
Speaker 1: But yeah. I even discussed this with a Muslim academic

2143
02:04:03,680 --> 02:04:05,800
at Harvard. I had him on my channel. I interviewed

2144
02:04:05,880 --> 02:04:09,439
him and I asked him the question said, does this

2145
02:04:09,600 --> 02:04:13,119
question even make sense because it seems that that that

2146
02:04:13,239 --> 02:04:17,800
that that that the challenge would be invalid, uh and illogical.

2147
02:04:17,920 --> 02:04:20,279
He said, yeah, I I agree, it's it doesn't make

2148
02:04:20,279 --> 02:04:22,199
any sense because there is no standard by which you

2149
02:04:22,239 --> 02:04:25,720
can judge whether whether a text is better or worse.

2150
02:04:26,000 --> 02:04:29,560
So and it would always be in the hands of

2151
02:04:29,640 --> 02:04:32,920
the of the Muslims to decide yours is not better

2152
02:04:32,960 --> 02:04:38,560
than the better. Yeah, obviously this is much better, but.

2153
02:04:38,680 --> 02:04:43,119
Speaker 3: It's it's just that's like which one tastes better. Well,

2154
02:04:43,199 --> 02:04:45,520
clearly this scoop tastes better. It doesn't have a fly

2155
02:04:45,680 --> 02:04:45,840
in it.

2156
02:04:49,239 --> 02:04:54,000
Speaker 1: Right, good point, Good point him, And he said, chef allah,

2157
02:04:54,159 --> 02:04:56,520
and now for our third course, we have nearly rotten

2158
02:04:56,600 --> 02:04:59,079
meat with a double fly wing sauce.

2159
02:05:02,039 --> 02:05:04,279
Speaker 3: No, there's no Jewish chefs around, so.

2160
02:05:08,079 --> 02:05:09,920
Speaker 1: I have to give them one thing. So we talk

2161
02:05:09,960 --> 02:05:12,199
about these culinary things. We mark them and make fun

2162
02:05:12,239 --> 02:05:15,680
of them. There's one thing that is respectable about about

2163
02:05:15,680 --> 02:05:19,159
the culinary practices and advices, which is which would be

2164
02:05:19,880 --> 02:05:24,920
when a group of people came to Mohammed, they felt

2165
02:05:25,079 --> 02:05:30,039
very sick, so he told them, go and drink the

2166
02:05:30,199 --> 02:05:33,399
milk and the urine of a camel and you will

2167
02:05:33,439 --> 02:05:37,159
feel you will feel better. So they went away, and

2168
02:05:37,199 --> 02:05:40,039
then they came back and they allegedly felt better, but

2169
02:05:40,119 --> 02:05:43,199
then they ended up killing uh this this Muslim guys,

2170
02:05:43,520 --> 02:05:45,680
the Muslim guid and taking all these camels and then

2171
02:05:45,760 --> 02:05:48,279
running away with it with it. So for some reason

2172
02:05:48,359 --> 02:05:51,760
they were convinced or they it helped them they felt better,

2173
02:05:51,840 --> 02:05:55,119
but then they ended up robbing this guy, uh, there's Muslim,

2174
02:05:55,159 --> 02:05:58,239
and then running away with the camels, and which is

2175
02:05:58,319 --> 02:06:02,000
why they were apprehended and then killed by cutting off

2176
02:06:02,000 --> 02:06:04,680
their hands and feet from opposite sides and branding them.

2177
02:06:04,600 --> 02:06:04,680
Speaker 4: And.

2178
02:06:06,880 --> 02:06:13,159
Speaker 3: That Mohammad and the authors might just be writing comedy.

2179
02:06:14,640 --> 02:06:18,720
Speaker 1: Consider that theis I don't know, but when I read

2180
02:06:18,760 --> 02:06:20,479
that story, it just makes me think, Wait a minute.

2181
02:06:20,520 --> 02:06:23,159
So Mohammed gives them the advice, Hey, how about just

2182
02:06:23,279 --> 02:06:25,600
drink some urine, drink some cameras And they're like okay.

2183
02:06:25,920 --> 02:06:28,199
Then they go and when they come back, they're so

2184
02:06:28,439 --> 02:06:32,239
mad that they actually kill kill Mohammed's guy and take

2185
02:06:32,279 --> 02:06:34,560
all his camels and try to run away. It looks

2186
02:06:34,640 --> 02:06:36,279
like they weren't really happy with the advice.

2187
02:06:36,399 --> 02:06:39,760
Speaker 3: Ah okay, So, by the way, does that mean that

2188
02:06:39,800 --> 02:06:41,439
you drink up separate or am I supposed to put

2189
02:06:41,439 --> 02:06:41,800
them together?

2190
02:06:42,039 --> 02:06:42,079
Speaker 5: Like?

2191
02:06:42,960 --> 02:06:47,239
Speaker 1: Depends why your preference? Whatever you like best? Yeah, yeah,

2192
02:06:47,840 --> 02:06:49,399
but that's why I always have to have a bottle

2193
02:06:49,399 --> 02:06:55,000
of urine here. Uh call off? Goodora. Hello boys, Do

2194
02:06:55,119 --> 02:06:57,439
either of you know what the Shia hadith say about

2195
02:06:57,520 --> 02:07:03,359
aisha praise to odin? How dare you? I'm not extremely

2196
02:07:03,399 --> 02:07:07,800
familiar with chi Id's They have the Kittaba Kafi, which

2197
02:07:07,880 --> 02:07:13,199
is different narrations about with things that Muhammad said. They

2198
02:07:13,279 --> 02:07:16,720
don't have a very good view of Aisha Mohammed's child bride.

2199
02:07:18,039 --> 02:07:20,279
They usually call her a prostitute and things like that.

2200
02:07:20,600 --> 02:07:23,279
They're pretty harsh about her. But I'm not sure how

2201
02:07:23,359 --> 02:07:25,439
much of that comes from Ahadith. Honestly, you'd have to

2202
02:07:25,439 --> 02:07:28,279
ask somebody else about that. Not very good with my

2203
02:07:28,359 --> 02:07:33,439
Shia stuff. Stumaham hey ap please life with xsom Zahil

2204
02:07:33,479 --> 02:07:37,319
and Adam seeker Inhola one day uh tendu blood chats

2205
02:07:37,479 --> 02:07:40,479
bugged boys, Only super chats can fix it. You know what,

2206
02:07:40,640 --> 02:07:44,119
It actually got fixed when I went into the settings

2207
02:07:44,159 --> 02:07:46,159
of the stream as it was happening and switched to

2208
02:07:46,239 --> 02:07:48,680
subscribers only mode, and then and then back again to

2209
02:07:49,359 --> 02:07:51,920
no subscribers only. More than suddenly the chats started working again.

2210
02:07:52,399 --> 02:07:57,520
Very very weird wild It was probably the Jews. Karamasao said,

2211
02:07:57,960 --> 02:08:00,640
I feel like Jonathan Plejot would like to go on

2212
02:08:00,720 --> 02:08:03,079
a hyper analysis of the symbolism of the fly in

2213
02:08:03,199 --> 02:08:04,119
the Superdith.

2214
02:08:06,039 --> 02:08:08,159
Speaker 3: That's funny. I do think you're right, though, to call

2215
02:08:08,239 --> 02:08:11,319
attention to the fact that a lot of the symbolic

2216
02:08:11,560 --> 02:08:16,199
and the like, even going into deep debates with Muslims

2217
02:08:16,199 --> 02:08:19,600
above the attributes. It's like doing a disservice because it's

2218
02:08:19,600 --> 02:08:22,920
given the impression that this is like this really sophisticated deep.

2219
02:08:23,560 --> 02:08:25,119
Really it's just a bunch of goofy stuff.

2220
02:08:25,640 --> 02:08:28,439
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's it is. It is pretty dumb. It's the

2221
02:08:28,600 --> 02:08:31,600
example of for example, in Kuran, in the Quran, in

2222
02:08:31,840 --> 02:08:36,880
chapter eighteen, verse eighty six, that is also the that

2223
02:08:37,000 --> 02:08:39,000
is the part where it talks about Alexander the Great.

2224
02:08:40,640 --> 02:08:44,199
That is where the Quran mentions that that he went

2225
02:08:44,520 --> 02:08:48,920
to the setting place of the sun and he found

2226
02:08:49,119 --> 02:08:52,960
it setting in a a a in a dark muddy water,

2227
02:08:54,319 --> 02:08:56,159
and he found it near it eight people and so on,

2228
02:08:56,359 --> 02:08:58,399
So it says he found the sun setting in a

2229
02:08:58,479 --> 02:09:02,319
muddy spring. Basically, nowadays, when you when you discuss this,

2230
02:09:03,039 --> 02:09:06,760
Muslims will talk about what this actually means and the

2231
02:09:06,840 --> 02:09:10,359
metaphorical aspect of it and how it appears when you

2232
02:09:10,479 --> 02:09:12,279
look from a distance at the sea and so on.

2233
02:09:12,800 --> 02:09:17,279
But the thing is, the earliest Muslim exegetes weren't quite

2234
02:09:17,319 --> 02:09:18,159
that deep about it.

2235
02:09:18,399 --> 02:09:21,600
Speaker 3: For example, have this deep symbolic guess meaning.

2236
02:09:21,800 --> 02:09:24,840
Speaker 1: So Sierra Altabar is one of the earliest ext Jesus,

2237
02:09:24,960 --> 02:09:29,159
and it says it discusses this verse on over multiple

2238
02:09:29,199 --> 02:09:33,960
pages and all it does is it talks about where

2239
02:09:34,079 --> 02:09:36,439
this place is where the sun sets in a muddy spring,

2240
02:09:36,760 --> 02:09:38,880
and then it talks about how whether this spring is

2241
02:09:38,960 --> 02:09:42,399
hot or just dark or muddy and so on. So

2242
02:09:42,600 --> 02:09:47,119
it's Jesus, no, no, nothing at all. It's quite literally

2243
02:09:47,319 --> 02:09:52,039
just seeing the sun actually setting anybody spring. You have

2244
02:09:52,159 --> 02:09:54,119
to read into it to come up with something deeper.

2245
02:09:56,000 --> 02:09:59,079
Speaker 3: The notes here say we need not read this in

2246
02:09:59,279 --> 02:10:03,720
a literal way. It says, it says, it is probably

2247
02:10:03,880 --> 02:10:06,840
just describing the way that the sun would would appear

2248
02:10:06,920 --> 02:10:09,720
to set to the human perspective, of course.

2249
02:10:09,560 --> 02:10:12,199
Speaker 1: Of course, of course, but for some reason, it's also

2250
02:10:12,439 --> 02:10:18,000
the setting place of the sun. Yeah no, I'm mkw.

2251
02:10:18,279 --> 02:10:20,159
Don't you feel bad for the garden kids? We can't

2252
02:10:20,159 --> 02:10:26,960
celebrate nine to eleven and so such. That's pretty that's

2253
02:10:27,000 --> 02:10:32,840
pretty dark. Yeah, you have. I posted it earlier today.

2254
02:10:32,960 --> 02:10:38,039
We have always had the videos of Muslim populations including it,

2255
02:10:38,199 --> 02:10:41,560
especially the Palestine and Era population celebrating nine to eleven.

2256
02:10:42,960 --> 02:10:45,359
It's no lie. I grew up among Muslims. I grew

2257
02:10:45,439 --> 02:10:50,319
up as a Muslim immigrant in Germany. It was it

2258
02:10:50,520 --> 02:10:53,640
was the normal thing to justify it, or to be

2259
02:10:53,800 --> 02:10:57,319
happy about it, or to be quiet about it because

2260
02:10:57,359 --> 02:10:59,520
we don't want to brag about it too much, or

2261
02:10:59,560 --> 02:11:01,880
to say what about a rook and so on. This

2262
02:11:02,079 --> 02:11:07,359
was the general almost attitude. Shouldn't be a secret, but

2263
02:11:07,520 --> 02:11:11,720
yeah whatever, Neil seven seven seven seven. Now I know

2264
02:11:11,920 --> 02:11:15,199
why a small mustache man hated Jews his favorite meat

2265
02:11:15,359 --> 02:11:18,399
decayd when he was a child. This makes sense. This

2266
02:11:18,520 --> 02:11:21,039
explains one of the one of the reasons why Hitler

2267
02:11:21,079 --> 02:11:25,840
went all mad or Hirschfield made a superstiket which I

2268
02:11:25,920 --> 02:11:27,640
cannot see here, but I'm sure it's a very good one.

2269
02:11:27,680 --> 02:11:30,920
Thank you. Rage Murray made a superstiket which I also

2270
02:11:31,000 --> 02:11:34,840
can't see. Interesting, Jordan Floris, but thank you. Is Randy

2271
02:11:34,920 --> 02:11:36,359
going to do an altar call.

2272
02:11:38,319 --> 02:11:42,000
Speaker 3: In the in the next third installment of Randy Ball videos?

2273
02:11:42,039 --> 02:11:43,800
I will do an altar call just for you, Jordan.

2274
02:11:44,600 --> 02:11:46,880
Speaker 1: That's good, that's good. See you heard it here first,

2275
02:11:48,000 --> 02:11:49,760
John Smith. As someone who has read the Book of

2276
02:11:49,840 --> 02:11:52,159
the Council of Nicea, I can confirm as long as

2277
02:11:52,239 --> 02:11:59,359
to Caleb Warku Jay thoughts on Aisha age and her

2278
02:11:59,439 --> 02:11:59,920
marriage to.

2279
02:12:01,960 --> 02:12:05,319
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, I think it's pretty obviously a sign

2280
02:12:05,520 --> 02:12:10,960
that this is a weird cult, that you know they

2281
02:12:11,000 --> 02:12:13,880
work so hard to defend this that Daniel and Jake

2282
02:12:13,920 --> 02:12:16,119
and these people, Like, I thought it was odd in

2283
02:12:16,199 --> 02:12:18,760
the debate. It didn't bother me, but it was like

2284
02:12:19,239 --> 02:12:21,359
the first half of the debate it's about attributes in

2285
02:12:21,399 --> 02:12:23,399
the Quran, and then suddenly all they wanted to debate

2286
02:12:23,520 --> 02:12:27,439
was about trying to prove that Christianity affirms their view

2287
02:12:27,479 --> 02:12:31,199
of child marriage. And I'm just like, it doesn't. But

2288
02:12:31,880 --> 02:12:35,760
even if there were younger ages of consent, Like, I

2289
02:12:36,119 --> 02:12:38,680
just don't understand what this what they were trying to

2290
02:12:38,840 --> 02:12:41,920
prove with that, with getting me to say that, you know,

2291
02:12:42,119 --> 02:12:45,079
medieval Catholic canon law allows you to marry a girl

2292
02:12:45,159 --> 02:12:47,239
after puberty if she's thirteen or four, And I'm like,

2293
02:12:47,760 --> 02:12:49,279
but what is that. I don't understand what this is

2294
02:12:49,319 --> 02:12:53,760
supposed to prove that therefore then a pre pubescent marriage

2295
02:12:53,840 --> 02:12:55,720
is okay. I mean, it's just a really bizarre line

2296
02:12:55,720 --> 02:12:58,600
of argumentation. I think it's absurd.

2297
02:12:58,720 --> 02:13:06,359
Speaker 1: Honestly, why don't condemned h Thomas Aquinas? Wasn't that what

2298
02:13:06,439 --> 02:13:07,000
he repeated?

2299
02:13:07,159 --> 02:13:11,680
Speaker 3: Yeah that was I think, uh yeah, Daniel said that,

2300
02:13:11,840 --> 02:13:13,720
and then Jake had a video about that.

2301
02:13:13,880 --> 02:13:19,359
Speaker 1: Yeah, and you even said I'm ready to condemn it. Yeah, okay,

2302
02:13:19,880 --> 02:13:20,960
he feels to condemn.

2303
02:13:21,840 --> 02:13:23,399
Speaker 3: And then and then they made a video saying that.

2304
02:13:23,479 --> 02:13:25,359
Then they said, see he won't condemn aquinas for this.

2305
02:13:25,479 --> 02:13:29,039
I'm like, okay, is wrong. I don't know. It's like

2306
02:13:29,079 --> 02:13:31,479
they didn't even care that Like to the Orthodox, we're

2307
02:13:31,520 --> 02:13:33,960
not really that concerned about the quinas. But whatever. But

2308
02:13:34,319 --> 02:13:37,960
even if even if we accepted a coinus like, I

2309
02:13:37,960 --> 02:13:40,359
don't have a problem saying that there can be different

2310
02:13:40,439 --> 02:13:44,640
times in different places for what's acceptable for marriage, but

2311
02:13:44,680 --> 02:13:48,039
that wouldn't vindicate child marriage.

2312
02:13:48,920 --> 02:13:53,800
Speaker 1: They also I don't know if you looked into this afterward,

2313
02:13:53,920 --> 02:13:56,600
but jenneally Key, could you lied in the debate about

2314
02:13:56,680 --> 02:14:01,239
with you once again about the Catholic encyclopaedia. Yeah, when

2315
02:14:01,279 --> 02:14:04,079
he made the claim that the Catholican's cupidias uh says

2316
02:14:04,159 --> 02:14:07,039
that Mary was was was twelve years old or so,

2317
02:14:09,119 --> 02:14:11,359
and that this is totally fine in the Catholics Compidia.

2318
02:14:11,600 --> 02:14:14,039
This is not true. And he has been confronted on

2319
02:14:14,119 --> 02:14:15,840
this multiple times.

2320
02:14:17,840 --> 02:14:20,199
Speaker 3: And actually look at, uh, what what is the Catholics

2321
02:14:20,399 --> 02:14:20,840
VIDIA say?

2322
02:14:21,479 --> 02:14:28,119
Speaker 1: What does it say? I had it pulled up before because.

2323
02:14:27,880 --> 02:14:30,560
Speaker 3: I went well or what whatever? What's whatever? He's been

2324
02:14:30,600 --> 02:14:32,159
confronted with I'm not familiar with this.

2325
02:14:32,920 --> 02:14:43,000
Speaker 1: Let's see. Let's see. Let's see incarnation devotion, marriage, marriage,

2326
02:14:43,079 --> 02:14:47,359
marriage marriage marriage. Oh yeah, here, let's see. Let's see.

2327
02:14:47,760 --> 02:14:49,640
So we have the source here. When it comes to

2328
02:14:49,880 --> 02:14:54,199
the marriage, it says, it is probably at Nathers that

2329
02:14:54,319 --> 02:14:57,319
Joseph bitsathed in marriageer who was to become the mother

2330
02:14:57,399 --> 02:14:59,560
of God when the marriage took place, whether before or after,

2331
02:14:59,640 --> 02:15:02,760
the incre nation, is no easy matter to settle. And

2332
02:15:02,960 --> 02:15:05,640
on this point the masters of Exejesus at all times

2333
02:15:05,680 --> 02:15:09,680
been at variants. It will not be without interest to

2334
02:15:09,800 --> 02:15:14,960
recall here unreliable, though they are, the lengthy stories concerning

2335
02:15:15,000 --> 02:15:18,960
Saint Joseph's marriage contained in the apocryphal writings. When forty

2336
02:15:19,079 --> 02:15:21,600
years of age, Joseph married a woman called Melco or

2337
02:15:21,760 --> 02:15:26,159
Esha by some salon by others, and so on, it

2338
02:15:26,279 --> 02:15:29,760
then further says, oh, yeah, here they wish to find

2339
02:15:29,880 --> 02:15:33,359
in the tribe of Judah respectable man to espouse Mary.

2340
02:15:33,479 --> 02:15:36,840
And then twelve to fourteen years of age, Joseph, who

2341
02:15:36,920 --> 02:15:39,239
was at the time ninety years old, went up to Jerusalem.

2342
02:15:39,399 --> 02:15:42,560
Among the candidates, a miracle manifested the choice God had

2343
02:15:42,600 --> 02:15:46,840
made of Joseph, and two years later the annunciation took place,

2344
02:15:47,079 --> 02:15:49,840
So two years according to this narrative, after she was

2345
02:15:50,359 --> 02:15:52,760
between twelve and fourteen years.

2346
02:15:52,640 --> 02:15:54,079
Speaker 3: Old fourteen to sixteen.

2347
02:15:54,600 --> 02:15:57,399
Speaker 1: Yeah, these dreams is a Saint Jerome styles them, from

2348
02:15:57,399 --> 02:15:59,920
which many a Christian artists has drawn his inspirations. See

2349
02:16:00,039 --> 02:16:04,760
for instance, Raphael's espousal of the virgins are avoid of authority.

2350
02:16:06,399 --> 02:16:10,000
Avoid of authority, They nevertheless acquired in the course of

2351
02:16:10,079 --> 02:16:12,880
ages some popularity, and then some ecclesiastical writers sought the

2352
02:16:12,920 --> 02:16:14,960
answer to the well known difficulty arising from the mention

2353
02:16:15,079 --> 02:16:17,640
in the Gospel of the Lord's Brothers and so on.

2354
02:16:18,079 --> 02:16:24,880
So first off, void of authority. Secondly, it explicitly says

2355
02:16:24,960 --> 02:16:29,560
here unreliable, though they are so the Catholic encyclopedia here

2356
02:16:29,760 --> 02:16:32,079
never makes the claim that this is the age of

2357
02:16:32,360 --> 02:16:36,280
Mary when she was married. It only says that there

2358
02:16:36,319 --> 02:16:42,040
are certain traditions unreliable from the perspective of the Catholic encyclopedia,

2359
02:16:42,559 --> 02:16:46,559
and have no authority. But Daniel has been corrected on this,

2360
02:16:46,680 --> 02:16:51,639
But he will repeatedly claim that even the today says this.

2361
02:16:52,239 --> 02:16:55,559
So this is another lie that he makes about that

2362
02:16:55,639 --> 02:16:58,440
he repeatedly tells about child marriage to justify it, and

2363
02:16:58,680 --> 02:17:02,440
it's such a horrible I mean, who is actually convinced

2364
02:17:02,479 --> 02:17:06,879
when they debate and argue for child marriage. Who actually

2365
02:17:07,399 --> 02:17:09,879
watches this and says, oh, okay, they're making a good point.

2366
02:17:10,239 --> 02:17:12,000
I guess it's okay to married children.

2367
02:17:13,959 --> 02:17:20,360
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, it's kind of sad, but I mean, oh,

2368
02:17:20,600 --> 02:17:22,159
that reminds me that there was that I don't know

2369
02:17:22,159 --> 02:17:24,079
if you saw that video. Shake Uthman was doing the

2370
02:17:24,079 --> 02:17:26,879
same thing where he was saying that the Torah has

2371
02:17:27,559 --> 02:17:31,799
proof that Rachel was three, and it's not true. That's

2372
02:17:32,879 --> 02:17:36,360
in the Talmud, giving an opinion that he thought she

2373
02:17:36,520 --> 02:17:37,920
might be, which is not in the Torah.

2374
02:17:38,079 --> 02:17:42,120
Speaker 1: So yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, it's it's not Yeah, it's

2375
02:17:42,200 --> 02:17:46,159
it's all completely irrelevant and ridiculous. Jim as if all

2376
02:17:46,319 --> 02:17:51,280
is all Paulvalant all knowing, can abrogation exist? But technically

2377
02:17:51,319 --> 02:17:53,000
it could. It would be part of his plan right

2378
02:17:53,159 --> 02:17:56,920
to Sandy Kuran that has prior verses that abrogate or

2379
02:17:57,040 --> 02:17:59,680
later verses of abrocate prior ones. But it's kind of

2380
02:17:59,760 --> 02:18:03,239
weird that a law would have this eternal revelation sent

2381
02:18:03,440 --> 02:18:08,159
to humanity revealed within just twenty years and within that

2382
02:18:08,600 --> 02:18:11,920
within those twenty years there are verses that are abrogated

2383
02:18:12,000 --> 02:18:15,239
by later verses for some reason. It's a weird plan.

2384
02:18:18,120 --> 02:18:19,920
Then again, you can't question the wisdom of all lung

2385
02:18:20,280 --> 02:18:22,239
just to it. Jay, what's the hardest debate you've had

2386
02:18:22,319 --> 02:18:22,719
and why?

2387
02:18:26,239 --> 02:18:28,319
Speaker 3: I guess it's a tough one because I mean you

2388
02:18:28,360 --> 02:18:31,000
could say hard in terms of like whether the opponent

2389
02:18:31,120 --> 02:18:34,319
is really obtuse and stupid, or hard in the sense

2390
02:18:34,319 --> 02:18:38,559
of like did somebody propose a real challenge. I mean,

2391
02:18:38,600 --> 02:18:40,920
we haven't really had a debate with anybody that had

2392
02:18:40,920 --> 02:18:46,159
a significant, you know, hard argument to answer because most

2393
02:18:46,280 --> 02:18:48,760
most of the time I try to know my opponent's

2394
02:18:48,799 --> 02:18:52,959
position as best I can. I'd say probably one of

2395
02:18:53,000 --> 02:18:56,959
the better debates is maybe doctor Malpass because he because

2396
02:18:57,000 --> 02:18:59,239
he knows I think when I debate somebody who's an

2397
02:18:59,239 --> 02:19:02,000
actual professor or like has a degree in philosophy, those

2398
02:19:02,120 --> 02:19:05,680
usually go better because they know philosophy and they don't

2399
02:19:05,719 --> 02:19:11,600
make stupid arguments and you're not getting frustrated. But so far,

2400
02:19:11,600 --> 02:19:13,319
there hasn't been a person that I think really like

2401
02:19:13,440 --> 02:19:16,399
stumped me or like, you know one. I'm not trying

2402
02:19:16,440 --> 02:19:18,079
to be arrogant. I'm just saying I don't think that

2403
02:19:18,200 --> 02:19:20,959
there's been one yet. There could be, but not so far.

2404
02:19:21,920 --> 02:19:25,000
Speaker 1: What about Muslim Lantern. I heard that Muslim Lantern was

2405
02:19:25,079 --> 02:19:27,360
really tough and really defeated you in the debate.

2406
02:19:29,760 --> 02:19:32,920
Speaker 3: I actually thought he would. I expected better of him.

2407
02:19:32,920 --> 02:19:34,600
I mean, I was not familiar with him. I've never

2408
02:19:34,680 --> 02:19:37,559
seen any of his stuff. But then, you know, pretty

2409
02:19:37,639 --> 02:19:39,520
quickly into that, I could see that he was not

2410
02:19:39,600 --> 02:19:43,239
going to be a very good faith debater, so he

2411
02:19:43,479 --> 02:19:45,040
was actually probably one of the lower tier.

2412
02:19:45,879 --> 02:19:49,000
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, Jerome a lot of refuting the divinity of

2413
02:19:49,120 --> 02:19:51,360
Christ and of Mary, who is part of the trinity

2414
02:19:52,239 --> 02:19:55,280
Quran five seventy five Jesus and Mary aged food. Never

2415
02:19:55,360 --> 02:19:59,559
heard of the hypostatic union. Yeah, the Quran fails to

2416
02:19:59,639 --> 02:20:05,079
completely understand anything about the nature of Christ. Go ahead.

2417
02:20:05,360 --> 02:20:07,760
Speaker 3: This is a really good point too, that's overlooked. I'm

2418
02:20:07,760 --> 02:20:11,000
glad you mentioned that, because if if I was going

2419
02:20:11,040 --> 02:20:13,680
to believe the chron, if the chron wanted to compile,

2420
02:20:13,799 --> 02:20:16,799
or if they want to convince me, they would at

2421
02:20:16,920 --> 02:20:20,280
least get the theology right, you know what I mean,

2422
02:20:20,319 --> 02:20:24,040
they would say, Oh, you know, at nicea these Aarrant Christians,

2423
02:20:25,120 --> 02:20:27,719
you know, taught that Jesus is the second person of

2424
02:20:27,799 --> 02:20:31,120
the Godhead, and that he's Homo lusius. But they don't

2425
02:20:31,120 --> 02:20:32,520
even get the basics.

2426
02:20:32,120 --> 02:20:35,920
Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, yeah, precisely, And this is not the only

2427
02:20:36,040 --> 02:20:40,520
verse that is that also, by the way, references Mary

2428
02:20:41,000 --> 02:20:47,360
as part of trinity godhead. It also refers to look

2429
02:20:47,399 --> 02:20:51,719
at this. You might have seen this verse. If not,

2430
02:20:52,120 --> 02:20:55,719
I would say, is definitely something to look into. So

2431
02:20:56,079 --> 02:20:59,479
chapter five, verse one hundred and sixteen. And when Allah

2432
02:20:59,559 --> 02:21:02,799
will say, oh, Jesus, son of Mary, did you say

2433
02:21:02,879 --> 02:21:07,440
to the people, take me and my mother is deities?

2434
02:21:07,520 --> 02:21:10,959
Besides Allah? He will say, exalted are you? It was

2435
02:21:11,040 --> 02:21:12,799
not for me to say that, to which I have

2436
02:21:13,040 --> 02:21:17,280
no right, and so on. So just by asking, just

2437
02:21:17,360 --> 02:21:20,559
by saying that, Allah will ask Jesus this question, did

2438
02:21:20,639 --> 02:21:22,959
you tell the people to take me and my mother

2439
02:21:23,120 --> 02:21:26,239
is deities? Besides Allah? The Quran is seemingly implying here

2440
02:21:26,280 --> 02:21:30,600
that Christians do indeed believe in Jesus and marry as

2441
02:21:31,120 --> 02:21:36,680
a part of the God had and divine, which Muslims

2442
02:21:36,719 --> 02:21:39,399
today tried to explain by saying, oh, it was probably

2443
02:21:39,440 --> 02:21:42,559
in reference to a sect of Christians and all that,

2444
02:21:42,680 --> 02:21:46,159
but it's it's again one of those you know you

2445
02:21:46,239 --> 02:21:47,120
can say anything. Now.

2446
02:21:47,280 --> 02:21:49,319
Speaker 3: Well, this is funny because you'll notice if you have

2447
02:21:49,440 --> 02:21:52,000
a debate with a Musulman who knows his religion, he

2448
02:21:52,120 --> 02:21:55,559
always has the expectation and the demand that you present

2449
02:21:55,760 --> 02:21:59,879
his position accurately. Right, Yeah, the Quran didn't present accurately

2450
02:22:00,239 --> 02:22:02,239
the seventh centuries of Christianity prior.

2451
02:22:02,120 --> 02:22:07,079
Speaker 1: To it, exactly exactly. It's because the grant's author didn't

2452
02:22:07,120 --> 02:22:11,440
understand anything exactly that the Christians or the Jews believed,

2453
02:22:11,920 --> 02:22:17,159
which is why he got so many things wrong. Nico, Hey, Ap,

2454
02:22:17,280 --> 02:22:19,360
do you find moral issues in the Old Testament challenging

2455
02:22:19,520 --> 02:22:21,879
or has David would help with interpretation? It could be

2456
02:22:21,920 --> 02:22:24,559
fun to discuss with Jay God bless In all honesty,

2457
02:22:24,680 --> 02:22:26,639
I had I've never really had big issues with the

2458
02:22:26,719 --> 02:22:30,920
moral problems in the Old Testament. And this might sound

2459
02:22:31,000 --> 02:22:35,040
surprising to some people, especially to atheists and others. But

2460
02:22:36,399 --> 02:22:38,239
I also said in the past, for example, that I

2461
02:22:38,360 --> 02:22:41,840
don't that I can't condemn even slavery that took place

2462
02:22:41,959 --> 02:22:46,440
several centuries ago. If there is if slavery is a

2463
02:22:46,559 --> 02:22:48,879
norm that you deal with, that you do in a

2464
02:22:49,000 --> 02:22:51,840
society where this is how you deal with your enemy

2465
02:22:51,879 --> 02:22:54,479
in order to stop them from being a danger for

2466
02:22:54,600 --> 02:22:56,920
you in the future, and you put them to some

2467
02:22:57,360 --> 02:22:59,920
use instead of massacring them. If that was the norm,

2468
02:23:00,079 --> 02:23:02,360
I can't blame people in that time for the slavery

2469
02:23:02,399 --> 02:23:04,879
that they participated in. I could say that that this

2470
02:23:05,040 --> 02:23:08,079
is even I know this is very controversial, but I

2471
02:23:08,120 --> 02:23:13,399
could even go into the future with that, to to

2472
02:23:13,479 --> 02:23:17,600
the United States of America. I can't condemn individual slavers

2473
02:23:17,639 --> 02:23:20,159
and slave owners in that society where it is, where

2474
02:23:20,159 --> 02:23:22,079
it is a normal thing. I would say it's good

2475
02:23:22,120 --> 02:23:28,280
that it is eventually abolished, but condemning individuals for doing that.

2476
02:23:28,440 --> 02:23:28,479
Speaker 4: No.

2477
02:23:29,239 --> 02:23:31,559
Speaker 1: In the time of the of the Old Testament, it

2478
02:23:31,680 --> 02:23:35,600
is a time that is profoundly completely different from our

2479
02:23:35,920 --> 02:23:42,239
modern time, where a different handling of matters may have

2480
02:23:42,399 --> 02:23:46,840
been required, and it was okay for that time. Both

2481
02:23:46,920 --> 02:23:52,680
Christianity and even Judaism, which does not does not believe

2482
02:23:52,719 --> 02:23:55,920
in replacing or you know, fulfilling or abolishing the Old Law,

2483
02:23:56,840 --> 02:24:00,760
both moved on from much of it, even depending Judaism

2484
02:24:00,840 --> 02:24:03,120
for example. And to tell them what discusses how certain

2485
02:24:03,200 --> 02:24:05,920
matters are matters of the past and no longer applicable

2486
02:24:05,920 --> 02:24:08,520
in our time, and so on. So I have no

2487
02:24:08,680 --> 02:24:11,639
problem acknowledging that there are things that were considered okay

2488
02:24:11,799 --> 02:24:16,280
back then not today. It's all right. Do you have

2489
02:24:16,280 --> 02:24:17,440
any comment on that, Jay.

2490
02:24:17,760 --> 02:24:20,920
Speaker 3: No, I pretty much agree with that. I think you

2491
02:24:21,040 --> 02:24:24,440
have in the ancient world God meeting people where they were,

2492
02:24:24,639 --> 02:24:28,040
and he didn't have. If you look at the way

2493
02:24:28,079 --> 02:24:31,879
the Bible progresses in our perspective, you know, there's very

2494
02:24:32,000 --> 02:24:36,319
few expectations put upon people in Noah's day, very few

2495
02:24:36,399 --> 02:24:40,479
expectations even in Abraham's day. So the expectations kind of

2496
02:24:41,440 --> 02:24:46,559
grow with mankind's progression. And the Church brothers discussed this

2497
02:24:46,760 --> 02:24:52,719
from a kind of immaturity to maturation, and so the expectations.

2498
02:24:52,760 --> 02:24:54,440
You know, Jesus says, to who much has given, much

2499
02:24:54,520 --> 02:24:57,040
is required. So as we progress in terms of history,

2500
02:24:57,559 --> 02:25:00,520
I think there's a god can't expect more are because

2501
02:25:00,559 --> 02:25:02,079
of because of progression.

2502
02:25:03,079 --> 02:25:04,799
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's good.

2503
02:25:05,799 --> 02:25:05,879
Speaker 4: Uh.

2504
02:25:06,040 --> 02:25:09,360
Speaker 1: Grigsy Gregoriovniza refute to ap Are you really do you

2505
02:25:09,440 --> 02:25:10,879
really want to have a discussion about Jews?

2506
02:25:10,920 --> 02:25:11,079
Speaker 3: Now?

2507
02:25:12,319 --> 02:25:13,920
Speaker 1: I'm pretty sure that this is what this is about.

2508
02:25:17,040 --> 02:25:23,000
I'm not going to have that discussion. Old Testament, New Testament, truth, dinosaur,

2509
02:25:23,079 --> 02:25:27,280
Old Testament nutisment fantastic comments here. Eric al Harp said, Jay,

2510
02:25:27,360 --> 02:25:29,959
I'm Orthodox. A Catholic asked me what the difference between

2511
02:25:30,040 --> 02:25:34,760
procession and inspiration is, and that that ultimately our distinctions

2512
02:25:35,399 --> 02:25:39,319
in the hypostasis collapses into meaninglessness because we can't define

2513
02:25:39,399 --> 02:25:40,079
these terms.

2514
02:25:41,319 --> 02:25:45,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, but this is missing that this is actually his

2515
02:25:45,840 --> 02:25:51,079
own Catholic church. In confirming Constantinople, I affirms the position

2516
02:25:51,200 --> 02:25:53,799
that we have as Orthodox, which is the Cappadocian position.

2517
02:25:54,319 --> 02:25:57,920
Cappadocian position is that we believe in a distinction between

2518
02:25:58,520 --> 02:26:02,479
generation and procession, because it's revealed that way. Basil says.

2519
02:26:02,879 --> 02:26:04,879
He says, what the distinction is, we do not know,

2520
02:26:04,959 --> 02:26:06,920
and we're not told, but that there is a distinction.

2521
02:26:07,079 --> 02:26:09,360
We do know, and the other way we know is

2522
02:26:09,399 --> 02:26:12,559
by what's called hyposthetic properties. So the father is the soul,

2523
02:26:12,680 --> 02:26:16,520
cause the son is generated and the spirit aspirated. Those

2524
02:26:16,559 --> 02:26:19,639
are the hypothetic properties that distinguish the persons. To the

2525
02:26:19,799 --> 02:26:25,319
attempt by Catholics to speculate about other ways to make distinctions,

2526
02:26:25,799 --> 02:26:28,600
we believe goes out of the balance of what's defined

2527
02:26:28,600 --> 02:26:30,000
at the second ect Medical Council.

2528
02:26:32,600 --> 02:26:35,000
Speaker 1: That sound is pretty based. I don't know what you said,

2529
02:26:35,040 --> 02:26:39,319
but it is totally based. That's a sound by that

2530
02:26:39,399 --> 02:26:41,319
I took from a rabbi who was discussing the difference.

2531
02:26:41,399 --> 02:26:43,040
Speaker 3: I wonder what that sound is. That's fine.

2532
02:26:44,840 --> 02:26:46,479
Speaker 1: I took it out of context. Of course. He was

2533
02:26:46,559 --> 02:26:50,200
discussing how the Christian idea of original Senate the Jewish

2534
02:26:50,239 --> 02:26:52,520
idea are differ. But he was explaining it and saying,

2535
02:26:53,239 --> 02:26:55,520
you know, although we have disagreements, the Christian idea is

2536
02:26:55,600 --> 02:26:58,840
totally based on the Jewish idea as well, and we

2537
02:26:59,000 --> 02:27:02,079
know the same thing. But I thought, but he had

2538
02:27:02,120 --> 02:27:05,239
this odd, long pause after the word base, and I thought, hey,

2539
02:27:05,319 --> 02:27:10,799
that's perfect greeksy. I was talking about slavery. Okay, I'm

2540
02:27:10,799 --> 02:27:15,680
sorry for misrepresenting you. Okay, thanks, thanks. I don't know

2541
02:27:15,760 --> 02:27:21,680
what you meant though. So, Jeffrey Anderson Quran nine thirty,

2542
02:27:21,760 --> 02:27:23,920
what do you think about the idea that Mohammed conflated

2543
02:27:24,000 --> 02:27:27,360
Ezra and Elijah, given the importance of Elijah in the

2544
02:27:27,440 --> 02:27:30,040
heralding of the Messiah, not just from the Tanah but

2545
02:27:30,719 --> 02:27:37,399
Jewish Cedar customs. Before Jay gives his thoughts on this,

2546
02:27:37,520 --> 02:27:39,680
I would say that I just have one problem with it,

2547
02:27:39,799 --> 02:27:43,079
which is that so in the Arabic text in chapter nine,

2548
02:27:43,120 --> 02:27:47,360
verse thirty, the name used as Uzair, which is then

2549
02:27:48,079 --> 02:27:52,639
thought to be Ezra. The Quran also mentions Elijah as

2550
02:27:53,399 --> 02:27:58,959
eli Jas in different, two different verses, which I know

2551
02:27:59,159 --> 02:28:02,000
very well because I used it quite a bit in

2552
02:28:02,079 --> 02:28:06,120
different discussions about how Islam is ignorant of the name

2553
02:28:06,200 --> 02:28:12,239
Yahweh because Elijah literally means my God is Yahweh. That's

2554
02:28:12,319 --> 02:28:14,360
my that's my problem with it.

2555
02:28:14,440 --> 02:28:16,000
Speaker 3: But what do you think, j No, I was going

2556
02:28:16,040 --> 02:28:18,799
to say exactly the same thing that I don't know Arabic,

2557
02:28:18,879 --> 02:28:20,680
but I had it written in my notes that when

2558
02:28:20,719 --> 02:28:24,600
it says Ezra Hu's air. And you had that great

2559
02:28:25,079 --> 02:28:27,319
clip where you pointed out that Daniel was ignorant of

2560
02:28:27,360 --> 02:28:29,680
what the word Elijah means.

2561
02:28:30,040 --> 02:28:36,799
Speaker 1: Oh, yeah, it's funny because he never actually he never

2562
02:28:36,959 --> 02:28:40,280
got back to the topic on that. Yeah, when he

2563
02:28:40,319 --> 02:28:42,360
does that, it's just it's a clear sign that he

2564
02:28:42,680 --> 02:28:44,719
simply doesn't know how to answer.

2565
02:28:45,680 --> 02:28:48,479
Speaker 3: And it's incapable of admitting any error, which.

2566
02:28:48,319 --> 02:28:53,079
Speaker 1: Is exactly exactly serendipitous. Shark, did you see the Christian

2567
02:28:53,120 --> 02:28:56,600
guy that wrote a Christian Quran in Arabic? Shabi Earlie

2568
02:28:56,639 --> 02:28:58,760
said it wasn't equivalent since it didn't claim to be

2569
02:28:58,879 --> 02:28:59,360
from God.

2570
02:29:02,920 --> 02:29:04,840
Speaker 3: Well that's what you need, right, Like if you just

2571
02:29:04,920 --> 02:29:06,840
say that this book's better than the other books and

2572
02:29:06,920 --> 02:29:10,280
it's from God, that's that's what was missing.

2573
02:29:10,959 --> 02:29:15,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I I had even I worked a little

2574
02:29:15,319 --> 02:29:18,200
bit with chat GPT to make it right versus in

2575
02:29:18,280 --> 02:29:20,840
the style of the Quran, and was quite quite okay,

2576
02:29:21,840 --> 02:29:23,879
I did. I did all kinds of things like write

2577
02:29:24,920 --> 02:29:29,159
write a chapter about Chinese food in the style of

2578
02:29:29,280 --> 02:29:35,000
Kura one fourteen. Yeah, uh, and it's pretty good. It's

2579
02:29:35,000 --> 02:29:35,440
pretty good.

2580
02:29:35,959 --> 02:29:38,879
Speaker 3: But yeah, was there a bat in the suit or

2581
02:29:38,920 --> 02:29:39,760
a fly in the suit?

2582
02:29:40,559 --> 02:29:46,200
Speaker 1: I should have should want in the fly suit? Make

2583
02:29:46,319 --> 02:29:50,639
a chapter about the about Chinese food with both a

2584
02:29:50,799 --> 02:29:54,760
fly and a bat in the style of Kara fourteen.

2585
02:29:57,719 --> 02:29:58,159
Speaker 3: I like it.

2586
02:30:00,920 --> 02:30:04,479
Speaker 1: All right. Thanks everybody for watching. This was a fantastic stream.

2587
02:30:04,479 --> 02:30:06,959
Thank you so much, Jay for joining me. Sure anytime

2588
02:30:07,280 --> 02:30:10,000
I want to definitely follow up and jo another live

2589
02:30:10,079 --> 02:30:14,760
stream about religion and Christianity in general, anything else you

2590
02:30:14,879 --> 02:30:19,079
want to add, and also quickly where people can find you.

2591
02:30:19,239 --> 02:30:22,239
Speaker 3: Once again, No, it was a great chat. I appreciate

2592
02:30:22,280 --> 02:30:24,040
you having me. I always enjoy the conversation with you.

2593
02:30:24,079 --> 02:30:26,239
Always learned from you, So anybody I learned from a

2594
02:30:26,319 --> 02:30:30,079
love to have conversation and joke around with you. Yeah,

2595
02:30:30,079 --> 02:30:31,920
thanks for having me. You can find me over on

2596
02:30:32,000 --> 02:30:37,159
my channel JADR on YouTube, Jay's Analysis website. You can

2597
02:30:37,239 --> 02:30:40,600
find me on x Instagram. All of those TikTok under my.

2598
02:30:40,680 --> 02:30:45,719
Speaker 1: Name fantastic, fantastic, awesome. God quickly read this one a

2599
02:30:45,799 --> 02:30:51,799
mitz a bag. Here's some of my shakels shakeles I

2600
02:30:51,920 --> 02:30:53,799
wasn't making. I was going to make a joke about shackles,

2601
02:30:53,799 --> 02:30:55,639
but I can't find my one shakelbule that I have

2602
02:30:58,079 --> 02:31:00,840
from someone somewhere in guys. By the way, I'm from

2603
02:31:00,920 --> 02:31:03,040
Jaytown and I actually got out looking for you in

2604
02:31:03,079 --> 02:31:06,479
the Old City. Unfortunately I didn't thank you for thank

2605
02:31:06,559 --> 02:31:09,360
you for the word of truth. What I was in

2606
02:31:09,479 --> 02:31:11,319
is we are lots of people said hey, I saw you.

2607
02:31:11,799 --> 02:31:15,440
Nobody actually texted me saying, hey, what's up. I see

2608
02:31:15,479 --> 02:31:19,799
you right now, let's meet up. It's very funny, but yeah,

2609
02:31:20,559 --> 02:31:24,079
all the best. I mean to thank you. All right,

2610
02:31:24,200 --> 02:31:29,879
thanks everyone for watching as always, have a fantastic day,

2611
02:31:30,559 --> 02:31:34,840
and I will end this with a wonderful message from

2612
02:31:35,120 --> 02:31:38,319
one of my favorite goats here once again, stay away.

2613
02:31:38,319 --> 02:31:38,879
Speaker 4: From a slab