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Speaker 1: True Crime Bullshit is off this week, but I wanted

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to pop in and announce my newest Trova trip. On

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June thirteenth of twenty twenty six. We are going to Iceland,

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And when I say we, I mean you, Me and

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Shana and Tooks from the research team, and Sydney Copp

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who helped identify Christopher Roof. For as long as I

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can remember, Iceland has been number one on my travel

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list and it still somehow eluded me for all these years.

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So I'm inviting you to come experience Iceland with me

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for the very first time. Will visit secret geothermal lagoons, waterfalls, geysers,

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the Continental Rift, and black sand beaches littered with icebergs.

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We'll take a private boat tour, see the glaciers, see

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puffins and hang out and rekivic. It will be I'm

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sure a life changing six days. Tickets go on sale

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at noon Eastern today, but because of pre sale there's

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actually only a few tickets left, so reserve your spot asap.

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Check out the link in the show notes or on Instagram.

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I cannot wait to see you in Iceland. This is

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a studio both and production. This is part two of

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my interview with Israel's childhood friend Scott. To listen to

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the entire interview, start with episode seven oh six My

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Friend Israel Part one. When you would stay out there,

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would you stay on Rocky Ridge or would you stay

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somewhere else? You would, yeah, but you would stay in

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the main house or on trailers.

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Speaker 2: Or main house or we would camp out up at

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Israel's cabin a lot once we were once once you

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had that built, and we would you know, we'd sometimes

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just throw a tarp out because it was a pretty

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small cabin. But it was like home base for like

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the semi grown up kids or whatever you want to

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call it.

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Speaker 3: And yeah, and and it was weird.

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Speaker 2: There were certain I guess kind of probably unwritten rules,

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right like, because a lot of times it was just

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my older brother is raeling myself. Here's where are there

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any known pictures of the smiley face? What is it called?

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Speaker 3: Brand? No?

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Speaker 1: I mean I've heard it described, but no, I've never

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seen any.

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Speaker 3: Photos of it. How big do you think that is?

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Speaker 1: I don't think it's very big at all. Actually, hold on,

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I can tell.

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Speaker 3: You, okay. I I think.

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Speaker 2: I think I was there for that, oh really, yeah,

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and had done it to myself, but I was never

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never lit it enough to leave permanent.

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Speaker 1: Okay, So before I tell you where do you recall

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if he hasn't had done it, where would it have been?

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Speaker 2: So in my mind and this might have been where

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I did it was the inside of a left wrist.

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Speaker 1: Okay, Yeah, he did it on his left shoulder, on.

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Speaker 2: His left shoulder. So here's here's what I remember of it.

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And I'm I'm blurring this with other things because it's

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a chicken or the egg problem. I don't know if

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it was something we kind of got planted in us

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from visits with Israel, or if it's something we kind

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of brought with us. It's like, hey, this is weird

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and dumb, like maybe you'll be interested in it. But

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we would take lighters, right, just regular big lighters and

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kind of hold it sideways, upside down, get it as

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hot as you can, and then the two top burrs

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of the striking and then the kind of loop of

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the end of the lighter does make a smiley face. Yeah,

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And so we would you know, if you did it

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at a certain heat, it would go away after a

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month or so, right, it would kind of heal like

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a second degree burn or whatever. But so I was

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I was kind of curious because I was like, I

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remember obviously doing dumb stuff like that with him, but

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I was like, couldn't recall an exact memory of that,

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and definitely feels like something I would have been goaded

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into participating in, not necessarily being excited about. But that's

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interesting because shoulder almost makes me wonder, like it's like

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a show of strength or something like, oh, you you

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held it for ten seconds and did it watch this

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hold it for thirty seconds, then just shove it into

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my shoulder or something like that.

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Speaker 3: That's what it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, But also I feel like shoulders a weird place

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for a brand that would be that small. Yeah, it

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would get buried. So you probably you probably figured out

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how to dial it up a little bit from there.

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Speaker 1: We talked about obviously like the bad stuff. But you

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guys were friends. Tell me, you know what, tell me

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about your friendship. I guess, like some of the good

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memories why you liked him.

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Speaker 2: So I think there was very much a and I

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guess this is what this is obviously hindsight bias. So

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I had a I had a very strange relationship with

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that family in general, just being that like I and

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I feel this way generally about a lot of things,

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like just didn't know if I belonged or not, right,

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And I think that's something that I wear more than

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something that that happens to me. But so the things

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that would have endeared me to Israel, like the strongest

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and best example I have. I don't know that they

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always had horses. This could be borderline other crimes perhaps,

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but they at one point they did have some horses.

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And I remember thinking how kind of interesting, weird and

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cool this would be that we're going to go, like

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we need to go fix a fence out somewhere, and

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so they're like putting on horses and whatever else. I'm

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It's like, oh, this is this will be interesting. Like

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I think I'd ridden horses before, but this was like

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we're working.

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Speaker 3: Now and doing this.

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Speaker 2: And then I quickly found out that I don't get

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a saddle right, so I'm just like on the back

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of a horse. And that did have reins that were

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you attached to the front of the horse. But I

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shouldn't have been and I shouldn't have gone. And it

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was a decent length ride to get to where the

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fences were and stuff, and I know she was with us.

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I want to say it was also or it could

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have been a couple of the sisters. And so we're

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riding out. I'm clearly like out of my element. I

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have no stirrups. I'm not great with horse control. There's

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certain port parts where it's fairly steep, which was fine

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when we were headed out there, but then like coming

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back it had rained and whatever else, and like you know,

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there there was nothing like you didn't like swoop in

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and just like kind of take over and save the

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day kind of a thing, but like there was a

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I think there was almost like a sense of responsibility

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on his part or like I just remember being like

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watched over in a sense of just like this is

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weird and really wishing I hadn't wound up in this scenario.

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But it's like, Okay, I feel like it's probably gonna

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be fine, right, And he's he's not Ted Lasso, so

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he's not telling me this either. It's just that he

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wouldn't wander off too far or he would like look

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over his shoulder enough that I'm just like okay, at

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least he knows I'm like struggling.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, And if I fall off.

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Speaker 2: He's at least going to see a horse without somebody

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on it, and like they're not going to have to

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come looking for me, you know, sometime later on. And

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so there were a few things like that. There was

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you know, there were a few situations like that where

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he kind of really enjoyed. I think being the older

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brother was a burden in a lot of ways for him, right,

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The whole idea of a parentified adults, which happens everywhere,

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a very unique setting for him to experience that in

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some ways. But I think there were periods where it

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was really exciting and fun for him to get to

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be that. We crossed over into Canada and went to

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a water park there and they had like an underwater cave, right,

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maybe something that the US wouldn't allow whatever else, but

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like I'd never seen that before, right, So you have

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to hold your breath and go in, and there's there's

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air pockets in the back, and but you know there's

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kind of like tunnels you do have to be submerged

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to go through. And you know, I think that was

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kind of one of those things where I could kind

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of tell he got a sense of like, here's how

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you have to do it Like it's not that bad.

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You don't even have to open your eyes, but like

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you know, use your hands so you can like feel

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where it is so you know when you can come

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up and things like that that you know, I think

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he he got to switch and it felt more like

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an opportunity than like an obligation to be, you know,

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the one of the older, not on parent individuals of

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the of the group. And I think you probably had

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very very few instances of that throughout his life, to

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be to be in that setting.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's actually interesting because you think a lot about

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particularly when he was with Kim, where he had very

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little control or autonomy.

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Speaker 2: M I'm not sure I know enough about that when

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his time with Kim.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean mostly just she was older, she was

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the moneymaker, she had all the friends. He was kind

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of just the boyfriend.

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Speaker 3: Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's interesting.

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Speaker 1: I was did you know Jeff to participate in polygamy

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at all?

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Speaker 3: No? Okay, no, I mean I see that.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's I'm trying to think because like as weird

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as this sounds, and maybe this is going to sound

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dumb to somebody who would listen to but like maybe

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unsurprisingly there's a like when I'm in central Utah, right,

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if I'm at a costco, I think sometimes the people

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from that area will call them the colleagues or something

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like that, or the plagues or what like. You know,

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I saw this, and there may or may not be

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multiple wives, but they're certainly an aesthetic. That was very much,

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you know, how how the family would dress and whatever else.

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I kind of very frontier, prairie kind of kind of

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vibes not yeah, not something that I'm aware of. And

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that's interesting because I I would imagine if that were

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to be the case, that's likely not something they would

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have volunteered or allowed my parents to see or understand.

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Speaker 3: So that's interesting. That's interesting. Yeah, did you know, Well.

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Speaker 2: She seems like one of more of the mysteries. And

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I don't know, because I like the word disappeared came

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to mind. That is not the right word, but I

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feel like she didn't live there the entire time that

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we would go visit. I do say that period. Okay,

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well then that makes that a little bit more obvious.

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I'm again, I guess there's the church or whatever else,

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But then there's I'm just puzzled as how some of

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that happens without it being like almost arranged in a way.

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But but yeah, that I also think there were a

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lot of incentives to launch from the nest.

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Speaker 3: Did you ever go down to Hunters while you were there?

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So I don't know where Hunters is located. I want

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to take thirty minutes south, okay, So I.

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Speaker 2: Don't remember like where we would have gone when we

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participated in this church event. Was that a center for

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the church stuff?

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Speaker 1: Maybe we're trying to figure that out. That there was

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in Callville kind of like a church square where everybody congregated,

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So that's probably it. But we're finding more and more

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connect between Hunters and the Christian that community.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's not a it's not a town name that

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that stands out to me from memory.

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Speaker 3: And we really didn't wander all that much.

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Speaker 2: Maybe a little bit more in the in the later years,

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but it was pretty much like you know, I I

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want to say, they were like, you know, trying to

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expand like the garden area and other things like. So

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usually we were really helping with projects and then goofing

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around and stuff. I think it was I think the

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other aspect of my parents' goals was, you know, my

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dad had been raised on like a pseudo farm, like

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a math teacher running a farm. Still kind of a

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thing blend of a World War two vette of his

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dad was. And so I think part of it from

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his standpoint was like I don't know where else you

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get it, Like you kind of just have to like,

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you know, time to time to roll up your sleeves

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or you know whatever else kind of a almost like

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a scared straight program.

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Speaker 3: I guess.

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Speaker 1: When you went to the church activities, did they leave

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any sort of impression with you? Did it feel similar

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to like Mormon church activities. Did you feel like was

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it fun?

241
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Speaker 2: So I want to say the the closest to fun

242
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that it got was I enjoyed meeting new people. That

243
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part was that part was interesting. The I remember mostly

244
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feeling on guard. And you can probably draw directly draw

245
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some of the lines here, right, like having been homeschooled

246
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and whatever else, Like I was very cognizant of the

247
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fact that people might assume that I'm weird as a homeschooler, right, So,

248
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like I learned very quickly and you know, to be

249
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like there's certain times where I need to just like

250
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kind of shut up and listen so that then when

251
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I am participating, I'm not doing a thing that will

252
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like give me away as somebody who's unfamiliar with this

253
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the protocols or the standards or.

254
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Speaker 3: The you know, the unwritten rules whatever.

255
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Speaker 2: And I remember, like it was so stark, because I

256
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think all all religion is performative in a lot of ways.

257
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Like I think maybe for a few handful of people

258
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it really is like some kind of inner peace, but

259
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I think for a lot of people there's a performative

260
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aspect to it, but especially for this group, right, like

261
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you might stand in circles, you're going to hold hands

262
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and hold your hands up above your head and kind

263
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of you know, maybe somebody who's being the most pious

264
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in that setting is going to be like yelling to

265
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the Lord about why we need what we need and

266
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like so it was very stark from that way. Whereas

267
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like the Mormon community that I grew up in Northern Utah,

268
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I've even dubbed it Mormon masculinity, And maybe that's a

269
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term other people have used, but I don't know, if

270
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you're too valid in the news or like some of

271
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those things, Like I don't recommend it necessarily, but you know,

272
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like you might be this you know whatever kind of

273
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powerful influential person, but like it's okay for you to

274
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be up like kind of talking to the congregation and

275
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like have a shaking voice and be like this is

276
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just so important that our people get like whatever else

277
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and so like, and it's a tone that you would hear.

278
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There's the semi annual General conference where it's so easy

279
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to mimic. You don't even have to mimic a particular person,

280
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it's just a cadence and whatever. And so so it

281
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was very jarring from that standpoint of like what they're

282
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what the kind of the norms were there versus in

283
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my community? And I felt like I could mimic my

284
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own communities just because I had absorbed them long enough.

285
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And and that one I just was so like, you know,

286
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the way one person would do it, you know, to

287
00:15:55,440 --> 00:15:59,480
kind of draw attension or you know, show their position

288
00:15:59,559 --> 00:16:01,840
in the pack or something was like different from how

289
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somebody else would And I'm just like, oh, so there's

290
00:16:04,240 --> 00:16:06,159
I don't think there's a playbook kind of you know,

291
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was at least part of my interpretation of that. And

292
00:16:12,240 --> 00:16:14,960
like I don't remember an exact example. I want to

293
00:16:15,000 --> 00:16:17,679
say that there was maybe a girl about my age

294
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or something that I was like, oh, hey, here's like

295
00:16:20,120 --> 00:16:22,480
a peer that I could go meet and talk to.

296
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And I don't again, I don't. The sense I remember

297
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from that is that like maybe that wasn't okay or

298
00:16:29,080 --> 00:16:32,279
it was weird because I was an outsider and people

299
00:16:32,279 --> 00:16:36,519
were uncomfortable with that. But I remember a form of

300
00:16:36,559 --> 00:16:39,360
getting my wrist slapped, you know, in terms of just like,

301
00:16:40,639 --> 00:16:42,279
we don't know what's going on here, so it's not

302
00:16:42,320 --> 00:16:44,759
happening like something to that regard.

303
00:16:44,799 --> 00:16:46,039
Speaker 3: And I remember that being.

304
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Speaker 2: Abrasive to me because you know, I don't know how

305
00:16:49,600 --> 00:16:51,039
old I was at the time, but I don't think

306
00:16:51,080 --> 00:16:55,679
I was much of a much of a threat. But yeah,

307
00:16:55,720 --> 00:17:00,080
those that's some of the vague memories I have of

308
00:17:00,159 --> 00:17:03,120
the of the church community is, Yeah.

309
00:17:03,720 --> 00:17:06,759
Speaker 1: Did keys ever have any girlfriends while you were there?

310
00:17:07,599 --> 00:17:08,119
Speaker 3: I don't.

311
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Speaker 2: I don't remember there ever being I did. I did

312
00:17:11,319 --> 00:17:13,559
kind of try to chew on that for a while

313
00:17:13,720 --> 00:17:17,000
and think to myself, like, was there a name or

314
00:17:17,160 --> 00:17:20,759
something else that I could, you know, might have come up.

315
00:17:20,880 --> 00:17:24,160
I think I'm probably less likely to remember it. That

316
00:17:24,160 --> 00:17:26,640
would be a really interesting question to ask my older brother,

317
00:17:26,680 --> 00:17:28,920
because I think it would be much more likely that

318
00:17:29,000 --> 00:17:31,880
they might have confided or talked about that.

319
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Speaker 3: And I've I've made little to no.

320
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Speaker 2: Effort to ever really digest some of that stuff with him,

321
00:17:40,440 --> 00:17:44,680
but you know, I think there's certainly be some value there,

322
00:17:44,720 --> 00:17:48,559
but yeah, not not to my understanding. And I don't

323
00:17:48,680 --> 00:17:51,000
like even participating in some of the church stuff, Like

324
00:17:51,480 --> 00:17:53,480
you know, I probably wouldn't have ever been very far

325
00:17:53,519 --> 00:17:56,160
away from the people that I did know. Yeah, and

326
00:17:56,359 --> 00:17:58,920
you know, I don't I don't remember any instance of like, oh,

327
00:17:59,039 --> 00:18:00,880
this seems like an important orson for him to like

328
00:18:01,680 --> 00:18:04,400
you know, run over to go talk to or whatever.

329
00:18:04,440 --> 00:18:08,039
Speaker 1: Else did he ever talk about not his own but

330
00:18:08,440 --> 00:18:11,519
just like crime in general with you, Like I know,

331
00:18:11,559 --> 00:18:13,559
he was really into true crime and was reading a

332
00:18:13,599 --> 00:18:14,640
lot of books and stuff.

333
00:18:14,839 --> 00:18:20,480
Speaker 2: I can't remember any specific examples or cases, right, Like

334
00:18:20,519 --> 00:18:24,799
I know he became you know, obsessed with the the

335
00:18:24,880 --> 00:18:27,119
guy that had operated here in Utah for a while

336
00:18:27,160 --> 00:18:31,960
and should not be forgetting his name, Yeah, Bundy, I

337
00:18:32,319 --> 00:18:37,680
remember kind of some of those topics or talking about police,

338
00:18:37,759 --> 00:18:41,319
like certainly being clever was like an important thing to him,

339
00:18:41,400 --> 00:18:47,920
or like kind of having this understanding and certainly books

340
00:18:47,920 --> 00:18:49,799
and whatever else were like one of the ways that

341
00:18:49,839 --> 00:18:53,400
he could get access to certain things or you know,

342
00:18:53,920 --> 00:18:58,640
I guess information on experiences that he's but I don't.

343
00:18:58,680 --> 00:19:00,680
I don't remember him ever having being like a real

344
00:19:00,799 --> 00:19:04,079
strong I don't want to say obsession because I would

345
00:19:04,119 --> 00:19:07,279
certainly stand out, but yeah, I don't remember any specific

346
00:19:07,319 --> 00:19:11,839
examples or or scenarios other than that was definitely something

347
00:19:11,920 --> 00:19:15,160
he had an interest in, right, Or if we were

348
00:19:15,599 --> 00:19:18,440
going and breaking that gate, right, he would almost like

349
00:19:18,519 --> 00:19:21,119
talk through his thought process of like, you know, I'll

350
00:19:21,240 --> 00:19:23,400
put it back this way so that if somebody's looking

351
00:19:23,440 --> 00:19:25,400
from like thirty yards away, they won't know that the

352
00:19:25,480 --> 00:19:28,640
chain's gone and like not connected, but like but there's

353
00:19:28,640 --> 00:19:31,319
no padlock on it anymore. Like just some of those things,

354
00:19:31,359 --> 00:19:34,519
like you know, he was you know, flagging and paying

355
00:19:34,519 --> 00:19:37,160
attention in a way which is almost weird to me

356
00:19:37,279 --> 00:19:39,759
because at this point he would have had very few

357
00:19:40,640 --> 00:19:48,240
instances of any external enforcer, right, or like I'm not sure,

358
00:19:48,920 --> 00:19:52,400
and maybe there were instances of like forest rangers or

359
00:19:52,400 --> 00:19:53,960
like something like I don't know what that would look

360
00:19:54,039 --> 00:19:56,640
like in his world, but in a way it almost

361
00:19:56,680 --> 00:20:00,880
seems strange because it's you know, it's like when you're

362
00:20:00,920 --> 00:20:03,000
in the countryside and you're like, I'm gonna go ten

363
00:20:03,000 --> 00:20:05,359
to fifteen over, there's a cop anywhere in the next

364
00:20:05,440 --> 00:20:07,799
five miles. I would see it already because I'm in

365
00:20:07,839 --> 00:20:10,160
Nebraska and I can I can see the shoulder for

366
00:20:10,200 --> 00:20:12,440
the next you know, that kind of how it would

367
00:20:12,480 --> 00:20:14,519
have felt, at least how it felt to me out there.

368
00:20:14,559 --> 00:20:17,640
Speaker 1: But when would have been the last time you saw

369
00:20:17,759 --> 00:20:18,440
or talk to him.

370
00:20:19,319 --> 00:20:24,359
Speaker 2: I'm I'm thinking now that it it must have been

371
00:20:25,359 --> 00:20:27,799
ninety six. And I'm only saying that because I feel

372
00:20:27,880 --> 00:20:31,759
like I feel like that would be such a standout

373
00:20:31,839 --> 00:20:35,160
memory if we had gone up the summer of ninety

374
00:20:35,200 --> 00:20:43,319
seven after my sister had passed away, But maybe maybe not.

375
00:20:43,640 --> 00:20:46,720
Speaker 1: I ninety six makes sense because they moved down to Oregon,

376
00:20:46,839 --> 00:20:48,359
I think right after that summer.

377
00:20:49,039 --> 00:20:52,519
Speaker 2: Oh okay, so that was I actually was looking for

378
00:20:52,599 --> 00:20:54,559
that this morning because I was just like, part of

379
00:20:54,599 --> 00:20:55,960
me was just like, I'm gonna sound dumb on a

380
00:20:56,000 --> 00:20:57,359
couple of these things, are gonna do a little bit

381
00:20:57,359 --> 00:20:57,759
of homework.

382
00:20:57,799 --> 00:21:00,359
Speaker 1: I actually preferred when you sound dumb because I know

383
00:21:00,400 --> 00:21:01,799
you haven't been like studying.

384
00:21:03,799 --> 00:21:04,000
Speaker 3: Well.

385
00:21:04,039 --> 00:21:05,799
Speaker 2: It is a little bit funny because Yeah, some of

386
00:21:05,799 --> 00:21:08,319
the things that I would be quote unquote tainted by

387
00:21:08,440 --> 00:21:10,079
is you know, a lot of it would be your

388
00:21:10,119 --> 00:21:13,039
own work, you know, to begin with, because that's where

389
00:21:13,079 --> 00:21:17,319
I've been able to revisit or you know, collect Obviously

390
00:21:17,400 --> 00:21:20,200
a lot of a lot of that's coming from from

391
00:21:20,279 --> 00:21:23,000
the records or the interviews, which which I've never listened

392
00:21:23,039 --> 00:21:23,920
to in their entirety.

393
00:21:23,960 --> 00:21:25,960
Speaker 3: I've only heard them clipped.

394
00:21:26,319 --> 00:21:29,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, how would you classify him? I guess, you know,

395
00:21:29,799 --> 00:21:32,160
trying as best you can to remove what you now know.

396
00:21:32,720 --> 00:21:36,519
Speaker 3: It's a very interesting way to think about it.

397
00:21:36,559 --> 00:21:39,400
Speaker 2: And like, as I've leading up to this, right, my

398
00:21:39,880 --> 00:21:42,880
mind's gone a couple of different directions. I have no

399
00:21:42,960 --> 00:21:46,799
desire to come out and be an apologist for him, absolutely,

400
00:21:46,880 --> 00:21:49,519
But at the same time, I've been trying to do

401
00:21:49,559 --> 00:21:51,519
what you just said, which is like, okay, kind of

402
00:21:52,119 --> 00:21:53,960
peel it away. If I just got a phone call

403
00:21:54,039 --> 00:21:57,200
in twenty thirteen, and rather than hearing what had happened

404
00:21:58,000 --> 00:22:02,279
or sorry twenty twelve again, dumb not paying attention, but

405
00:22:04,000 --> 00:22:05,759
I just know I was already living in San Francisco

406
00:22:05,799 --> 00:22:11,079
at the time, so it's easy to date that way.

407
00:22:11,200 --> 00:22:14,079
Like if somebody just called up and said like, Hey,

408
00:22:14,359 --> 00:22:18,880
like I just read about this guy and like whatever,

409
00:22:18,920 --> 00:22:20,279
what do you what do you know about him? Like

410
00:22:21,279 --> 00:22:24,599
kind of going back to that place. It's very strange.

411
00:22:24,640 --> 00:22:28,440
Part of me wants to try to categorize him with

412
00:22:28,559 --> 00:22:33,640
like some sort of mental health markers or indicators or

413
00:22:33,720 --> 00:22:37,079
you know, like neuro a divergency or something like that,

414
00:22:37,119 --> 00:22:39,000
which I which I think is just a dangerous thing

415
00:22:39,000 --> 00:22:40,960
to begin with because I don't think any of that

416
00:22:41,039 --> 00:22:46,119
has necessarily has criminal implications. Yeah, but it's it's like

417
00:22:46,200 --> 00:22:48,640
an easy direction for me to want to go because

418
00:22:49,160 --> 00:22:51,160
I do think there were certain ways that he would

419
00:22:51,240 --> 00:22:56,079
just you know, like like anyone wanted to entertain himself,

420
00:22:56,160 --> 00:22:58,720
wanted to like find something to be good at and

421
00:22:58,759 --> 00:23:03,039
like feel you know, efficient to add or things like that.

422
00:23:03,079 --> 00:23:08,039
And I think he had a very poor, poor selection bias.

423
00:23:08,079 --> 00:23:12,119
He was obsessed with knife and gun magazines and stuff

424
00:23:12,160 --> 00:23:15,119
like that. So he and I think I mentioned I

425
00:23:15,200 --> 00:23:17,319
probably edited out of an email because I was like,

426
00:23:17,359 --> 00:23:18,680
this guy doesn't need novels for me.

427
00:23:18,880 --> 00:23:23,720
Speaker 3: Every time, but I'll take them though. Well he and

428
00:23:23,799 --> 00:23:24,200
my brother.

429
00:23:24,920 --> 00:23:27,759
Speaker 2: So my brother still has I think at least two

430
00:23:27,839 --> 00:23:30,519
knives that I know of that he had gotten from

431
00:23:30,559 --> 00:23:33,400
trading with Israel, right that they had, you know, they

432
00:23:33,440 --> 00:23:37,440
would kind of collect, however, they collected them and then

433
00:23:38,319 --> 00:23:41,279
and then kind of barter and trade and talk about

434
00:23:41,559 --> 00:23:44,240
what they liked about different stuff. And then that did

435
00:23:44,279 --> 00:23:47,039
extend to guns. But by the way, I don't remember

436
00:23:47,079 --> 00:23:49,359
a lot of guns just showing up. But I guess

437
00:23:49,359 --> 00:23:53,119
I never asked a lot of questions either, So if

438
00:23:53,160 --> 00:23:56,799
I if I was, I guess categorizing him in a

439
00:23:56,799 --> 00:23:59,400
way for me is I think he was. He was

440
00:23:59,440 --> 00:24:01,880
somebody who was not afraid of working hard at something.

441
00:24:03,000 --> 00:24:05,880
And that feels almost horrible to say, given some of

442
00:24:05,880 --> 00:24:07,920
the things that we know happened later on in his life.

443
00:24:07,920 --> 00:24:10,839
But he was not afraid of, you know, rolling up

444
00:24:10,880 --> 00:24:13,720
his sleeves, kind of doing what the situation called for,

445
00:24:14,480 --> 00:24:17,759
you know, and wanting to try to get somewhere better

446
00:24:17,839 --> 00:24:20,000
as a result of that, right, I think he had

447
00:24:20,559 --> 00:24:22,599
some of the same frustrations any of us might have

448
00:24:22,680 --> 00:24:27,319
had in his setting growing up, which is, there are

449
00:24:27,359 --> 00:24:29,359
things he would have agreed with, there are things he

450
00:24:29,359 --> 00:24:33,440
wouldn't have agreed with. Living in the house with Jeff

451
00:24:33,880 --> 00:24:36,880
is the dad, Like, there's there's not a lot of room, right,

452
00:24:36,920 --> 00:24:40,000
There's a certain lens when I learned that there were

453
00:24:40,039 --> 00:24:43,720
male victims. There's a certain lens on my side that

454
00:24:43,839 --> 00:24:48,400
was just like, oh, this could so easily be just

455
00:24:48,440 --> 00:24:51,559
a curiosity, and just from such a young age, he

456
00:24:51,640 --> 00:24:54,799
was just like, this is never going to be okay

457
00:24:54,799 --> 00:24:56,920
with anybody that I know or I'm aware of. And

458
00:24:56,960 --> 00:25:01,079
so if this is anything I ever explored, like you know,

459
00:25:01,240 --> 00:25:04,720
this is nobody will ever find out about it, right,

460
00:25:04,960 --> 00:25:07,799
like something to that effect, Like it did not if

461
00:25:07,839 --> 00:25:12,920
that were a large contributing factor, which we obviously don't know,

462
00:25:13,200 --> 00:25:16,200
like that would not have surprised me, right when I

463
00:25:16,279 --> 00:25:19,839
you know, you think of the key hose and like,

464
00:25:20,200 --> 00:25:23,880
you know, the I was a little bit surprised when

465
00:25:23,880 --> 00:25:28,359
I was paying enough attention to learn that Tammy was

466
00:25:28,359 --> 00:25:32,119
was not white, right, and I'm and some of those

467
00:25:32,160 --> 00:25:35,480
things like and then hearing more about it later it

468
00:25:35,599 --> 00:25:38,240
was I guess, kind of validating in a way, because

469
00:25:39,079 --> 00:25:42,279
my impression really was before that, like the white supremacy

470
00:25:42,319 --> 00:25:46,160
stuff never got him excited, right. He would buy into

471
00:25:46,200 --> 00:25:47,920
some of the culture or whatever and like kind of

472
00:25:47,920 --> 00:25:49,559
talk about how cool it would be to have like

473
00:25:49,640 --> 00:25:51,880
big high top Doc Martins or whatever else, Right, But

474
00:25:51,920 --> 00:25:54,920
that's not that's not how they were. You know, they

475
00:25:54,920 --> 00:25:58,039
weren't shopping at those kinds of stores or whatever. But

476
00:25:58,440 --> 00:26:00,400
you know, so he would get kind of day dreams

477
00:26:00,400 --> 00:26:02,759
like the rest of us. Yeah, I think he was

478
00:26:02,799 --> 00:26:06,720
somebody who wanted to do well, be able to take

479
00:26:06,759 --> 00:26:11,240
care of himself to a certain degree, and kind of

480
00:26:12,200 --> 00:26:14,880
have that be enough in some ways, Like he's the

481
00:26:14,920 --> 00:26:18,039
second oldest of ten, I'm the second oldest of nine.

482
00:26:18,799 --> 00:26:23,640
There's other parallels in terms of like setting where I

483
00:26:23,680 --> 00:26:26,119
can kind of commiserate with that in a way, like

484
00:26:26,400 --> 00:26:29,559
not necessarily just having a big family, but like I guess,

485
00:26:29,640 --> 00:26:34,160
kind of a version of being prentified and you know,

486
00:26:34,359 --> 00:26:38,279
not having a lot of participation but not a lot

487
00:26:38,319 --> 00:26:43,480
of control or planning or whatever else. Doing a bad

488
00:26:43,559 --> 00:26:46,920
job of narrowing in on any kind of short statement,

489
00:26:47,039 --> 00:26:50,599
But that's I guess if you would, Yeah, if you

490
00:26:50,640 --> 00:26:52,759
would talk to me after the last time I saw him,

491
00:26:52,960 --> 00:26:54,799
that's the sense I would have had.

492
00:26:55,839 --> 00:26:57,839
Speaker 3: I completely forgot.

493
00:26:58,759 --> 00:27:01,200
Speaker 2: But now that I'm going back to your thought of Oregon,

494
00:27:01,359 --> 00:27:04,160
I do believe my parents and some of my other

495
00:27:04,240 --> 00:27:07,160
siblings had visited them in Oregon, the Key like because

496
00:27:07,200 --> 00:27:08,759
the Keys family was there, right.

497
00:27:09,039 --> 00:27:11,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, all of them were there. Keys was in mop

498
00:27:12,039 --> 00:27:14,160
and the restaurant dufour, which I think are like an

499
00:27:14,200 --> 00:27:15,200
hour apart from each other.

500
00:27:15,960 --> 00:27:19,359
Speaker 3: Okay, that's interesting. I will I will add that to.

501
00:27:19,359 --> 00:27:20,960
Speaker 2: I'm actually gonna write it down, but I'll add that

502
00:27:20,960 --> 00:27:24,480
to my list of like when you guys were in Oregon,

503
00:27:24,720 --> 00:27:27,200
did you know, did Keys show up? But that I

504
00:27:27,279 --> 00:27:28,960
may very well have been part of the window of

505
00:27:29,000 --> 00:27:32,559
a time where he and the parents were around the outs.

506
00:27:33,000 --> 00:27:33,240
Speaker 3: Yeah.

507
00:27:33,400 --> 00:27:35,680
Speaker 1: Actually that's what I was very curious about, is I

508
00:27:35,720 --> 00:27:38,799
guess his relationship with Jeff and Heidi. But also you're

509
00:27:39,079 --> 00:27:42,359
how you would characterize Jeff and Heidi as parents? Uh?

510
00:27:42,599 --> 00:27:45,720
Speaker 2: Not a lot of warmths to be found. Yeah, I mean,

511
00:27:45,880 --> 00:27:49,319
I'm trying to think. I mean, I I can't even

512
00:27:49,359 --> 00:27:52,920
tell you what it was about. But I'm I'm pretty

513
00:27:52,920 --> 00:27:57,119
sure nobody has dressed me down as much as Heidi.

514
00:27:57,200 --> 00:27:58,880
And like I said, I can't even remember what it was.

515
00:27:58,920 --> 00:28:01,759
I don't think I even understood. And it might have

516
00:28:01,880 --> 00:28:04,799
even just been that like I was putting the shucked

517
00:28:04,880 --> 00:28:07,920
corn in the pile, like in the wrong pile. It

518
00:28:07,920 --> 00:28:10,039
should have gone over here like it. And I'm not

519
00:28:10,039 --> 00:28:11,640
trying to say they have like a hair trigger and

520
00:28:11,680 --> 00:28:15,119
whatever else. But like it certainly wouldn't surprise me. I

521
00:28:15,119 --> 00:28:17,440
mean I would I believe I would expect that Jeff

522
00:28:17,480 --> 00:28:21,119
was probably physical with at least the sons, you know,

523
00:28:21,200 --> 00:28:23,960
maybe not any more than he felt he needed to be.

524
00:28:24,079 --> 00:28:27,160
I don't think it was an enjoyable thing, but like

525
00:28:28,039 --> 00:28:32,839
it was very kind of frontier z in that way,

526
00:28:32,960 --> 00:28:37,279
and which is a little bit surprising, right in a way,

527
00:28:37,400 --> 00:28:41,279
Like I I wish I had any convictions as much

528
00:28:41,359 --> 00:28:43,920
as somebody must have. Who's I'm just gonna go live

529
00:28:43,920 --> 00:28:47,039
in the woods, right, like like the real Walden, like

530
00:28:47,160 --> 00:28:49,839
not not the not the Walden with good friends that

531
00:28:49,920 --> 00:28:54,319
are close by kind of a thing, but like and

532
00:28:54,359 --> 00:28:56,279
so I mean, I don't know that they necessarily were

533
00:28:56,279 --> 00:28:58,279
that way because of their life circumstances.

534
00:28:59,119 --> 00:28:59,720
Speaker 3: They would do.

535
00:29:01,720 --> 00:29:04,519
Speaker 2: Like, you know, we would do Bible study some nights,

536
00:29:05,480 --> 00:29:07,640
and you know, they would kind of read, and I

537
00:29:07,680 --> 00:29:10,960
remember that was kind of like, you know, shoulders back

538
00:29:11,759 --> 00:29:13,759
kind of you know, you got to like play the part.

539
00:29:13,839 --> 00:29:15,759
You can't just kind of you know it. I don't

540
00:29:15,759 --> 00:29:17,400
I don't know the right way to describe it. But yeah,

541
00:29:17,480 --> 00:29:20,240
not a lot of warmth and not not people I

542
00:29:20,279 --> 00:29:22,319
necessarily wanted to be in the same room with when

543
00:29:22,359 --> 00:29:25,359
we were up there, not for any other reason than

544
00:29:25,759 --> 00:29:27,440
it was just was. You know, it's kind of one

545
00:29:27,440 --> 00:29:28,599
of those things you look back and you're like, I

546
00:29:28,599 --> 00:29:32,400
don't remember a good experience, Like they weren't all bad,

547
00:29:32,440 --> 00:29:35,279
but it's like I don't remember anything constructive from like

548
00:29:36,039 --> 00:29:38,240
you know, Heidi teaching me how to X Y Z

549
00:29:39,119 --> 00:29:43,240
or something like, and so it just was not I

550
00:29:43,279 --> 00:29:45,160
was always seeking to be elsewhere.

551
00:29:46,079 --> 00:29:48,880
Speaker 1: Tell me about when you found out about his arrest

552
00:29:48,920 --> 00:29:52,799
and eventually the breadth of his crimes, like what, how

553
00:29:52,839 --> 00:29:55,079
did were you surprised? How did that make you feel?

554
00:29:58,519 --> 00:30:01,000
Speaker 3: So the.

555
00:30:03,519 --> 00:30:07,400
Speaker 2: I mean it was it was very very difficult in

556
00:30:07,440 --> 00:30:10,000
a way like it was you know, the kind of

557
00:30:10,039 --> 00:30:13,680
the glass shattering type of moment of like, Okay, there

558
00:30:13,720 --> 00:30:16,720
are certain things like I just don't understand and won't

559
00:30:16,759 --> 00:30:21,480
be able to understand. I will say, the ripple effects

560
00:30:21,480 --> 00:30:26,599
of that we're sus staying long, much longer than I

561
00:30:26,640 --> 00:30:33,960
think should should even be necessary. So like I don't

562
00:30:34,000 --> 00:30:37,240
necessarily have not ever really been diagnosed as OCD, but

563
00:30:37,519 --> 00:30:39,240
I like to think I have an understanding of what

564
00:30:39,240 --> 00:30:42,039
intrusive thoughts are, Like maybe the volume for me is

565
00:30:42,079 --> 00:30:44,440
not the same whatever else. But like that became a

566
00:30:44,559 --> 00:30:50,440
very like scary thing in a way of like, you know, okay,

567
00:30:50,559 --> 00:30:54,039
like did a few things happen in just the right circumstances.

568
00:30:54,039 --> 00:30:58,519
It was just like, oh, okay, I'm just this is

569
00:30:58,559 --> 00:31:00,839
now an outlet for me, This is an option for me,

570
00:31:00,880 --> 00:31:02,680
and I don't I don't mind the kind of work

571
00:31:02,680 --> 00:31:05,440
it takes to do it. So you know, it's kind

572
00:31:05,440 --> 00:31:08,559
of like the uh, you know, you might smoke your

573
00:31:08,559 --> 00:31:11,519
first cigarette and it makes you sick and so like

574
00:31:11,559 --> 00:31:13,640
you just kind of never smoke, right, But somebody else

575
00:31:13,759 --> 00:31:17,839
is like, oh, this is these were made for me, right,

576
00:31:17,920 --> 00:31:21,319
And so like I got this weird idea of like,

577
00:31:22,160 --> 00:31:24,200
you know, are we all kind of like one to

578
00:31:24,359 --> 00:31:28,680
five poor decisions away from something that we may not

579
00:31:28,960 --> 00:31:30,880
be able to control. I do not believe that, but

580
00:31:30,920 --> 00:31:34,799
that that became a fear that I had and carried

581
00:31:34,799 --> 00:31:37,599
as a result of that. Part of it was the

582
00:31:37,720 --> 00:31:40,680
carry on effect, right, because this was only like I mean,

583
00:31:40,839 --> 00:31:43,119
it's like seven years later from when I first heard

584
00:31:43,119 --> 00:31:50,119
of Shane and Chevy, but it was it was very difficult.

585
00:31:50,200 --> 00:31:52,640
So if you think of that being and I'm sorry,

586
00:31:52,640 --> 00:31:53,720
I wouldn't was his death.

587
00:31:53,839 --> 00:31:57,480
Speaker 3: It was like a December December, the December of twelve.

588
00:31:57,720 --> 00:32:00,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, so I think I'm thinking of thirteen, because

589
00:32:00,119 --> 00:32:02,200
that's probably when I learned was probably very early in

590
00:32:02,240 --> 00:32:06,960
twenty thirteen. Did not the news did not race to me.

591
00:32:09,519 --> 00:32:11,880
So at that point, my wife and I have moved

592
00:32:11,880 --> 00:32:15,880
to San Francisco. She was a very San Francisco itself

593
00:32:15,880 --> 00:32:19,000
wasn't important to me, but like experiencing my felts where

594
00:32:19,039 --> 00:32:21,680
I wasn't able to go away to college or that

595
00:32:21,720 --> 00:32:24,319
sort of thing, so we went away to work, and

596
00:32:24,720 --> 00:32:27,240
so there was there was a version of that experience

597
00:32:28,079 --> 00:32:32,000
that you know, I had been autonomous, I'd been an adult,

598
00:32:32,079 --> 00:32:34,240
I'd been outside of the faith that I grew up

599
00:32:34,240 --> 00:32:37,039
in for a number of years by then. But that

600
00:32:37,160 --> 00:32:40,079
was a weird, like kind of slap in the face

601
00:32:40,079 --> 00:32:42,319
of just like you can run, but you can't hide

602
00:32:42,359 --> 00:32:44,759
it almost kind of there was that aspect to it

603
00:32:45,200 --> 00:32:49,279
for me personally of just like, okay, but I'm still

604
00:32:49,359 --> 00:32:52,480
kind of the product of how I grew up and

605
00:32:52,720 --> 00:32:55,000
you know, what I experienced and that sort of thing,

606
00:32:57,200 --> 00:33:02,480
and that really took away from my to enjoy kind

607
00:33:02,480 --> 00:33:05,880
of that developmental cycle that I had helped set up

608
00:33:05,880 --> 00:33:09,240
for myself, which is like nobody really looks the same,

609
00:33:09,400 --> 00:33:11,839
nobody really has the same background versus where I grew

610
00:33:11,880 --> 00:33:12,799
up in Northern Utah.

611
00:33:13,599 --> 00:33:16,680
Speaker 3: Like it's very very homogenous.

612
00:33:16,240 --> 00:33:20,960
Speaker 2: Right, Like everybody plays football or basketball, everybody hunts with

613
00:33:21,000 --> 00:33:23,920
their dads in October, and you know, and I can't

614
00:33:24,000 --> 00:33:24,880
take fish off the hook.

615
00:33:24,920 --> 00:33:26,279
Speaker 3: I still get teased about that.

616
00:33:26,720 --> 00:33:31,119
Speaker 2: I have sensory issues and milking goats was like the

617
00:33:31,160 --> 00:33:32,279
worst thing in the world for me.

618
00:33:33,200 --> 00:33:35,039
Speaker 3: But I would try to figure it out.

619
00:33:35,079 --> 00:33:36,920
Speaker 2: That might have been why I got yelled at by Heidi,

620
00:33:38,319 --> 00:33:41,480
but it just, you know, some of those things. So

621
00:33:41,519 --> 00:33:46,119
it was it was charring to bring some of that

622
00:33:46,200 --> 00:33:49,839
stuff back. And it would be quite a while before

623
00:33:49,839 --> 00:33:53,519
I learned any of the details of exactly what had happened.

624
00:33:53,519 --> 00:33:55,759
Speaker 3: I knew it was a sexual crime. I knew that the.

625
00:33:57,240 --> 00:34:03,599
Speaker 2: Samantha had been killed, but I couldn't really like I

626
00:34:03,599 --> 00:34:07,720
couldn't not think about it, and I couldn't hold attention

627
00:34:07,799 --> 00:34:11,559
long enough to read an article like through through some

628
00:34:11,639 --> 00:34:16,480
of the upset. So I was I was like damned

629
00:34:16,480 --> 00:34:17,960
in a way on both sides.

630
00:34:18,480 --> 00:34:23,880
Speaker 3: And so it was it was very difficult.

631
00:34:23,920 --> 00:34:27,079
Speaker 2: I wasn't comfortable talking to the people in my family

632
00:34:27,119 --> 00:34:29,960
about it. It was very clear to me that they

633
00:34:30,000 --> 00:34:32,039
weren't thinking about it the way that I was thinking

634
00:34:32,079 --> 00:34:36,239
about it, which was like this weird you know, all

635
00:34:36,239 --> 00:34:40,199
of a sudden, there was this weird distance on their

636
00:34:40,239 --> 00:34:44,119
side of like, oh, like, you know, we still love

637
00:34:44,159 --> 00:34:46,079
and support Heidi and like whatever else, and like I

638
00:34:46,079 --> 00:34:48,480
can't believe he made those choices for himself and whatever else.

639
00:34:48,519 --> 00:34:51,000
And I'm just like, like, I'm not saying Heidi like

640
00:34:51,199 --> 00:34:54,360
asked the guy to develop this habit, but I like,

641
00:34:54,519 --> 00:34:58,880
I have a really hard time that everybody just feels

642
00:34:58,920 --> 00:35:02,079
this way now of oh, it's such a shame that

643
00:35:02,159 --> 00:35:04,840
he decided to go make these decisions and do this thing.

644
00:35:04,880 --> 00:35:08,000
And I'm just like, you know, I'm trying to think

645
00:35:08,000 --> 00:35:09,920
of how old he would have been when he was arrested, right,

646
00:35:09,920 --> 00:35:13,519
he was certainly an autonomous adult and whatever else. But

647
00:35:13,559 --> 00:35:17,280
it's like, I don't know, it's a almost has to

648
00:35:17,360 --> 00:35:20,480
be a system thing. And that's not to excuse his

649
00:35:20,960 --> 00:35:24,360
part in it, but like, I didn't feel like I

650
00:35:24,360 --> 00:35:26,519
could talk to any of the people in my family

651
00:35:26,559 --> 00:35:31,360
about it because of that component and the way I

652
00:35:31,440 --> 00:35:34,159
was thinking about it like even allowed the taint to

653
00:35:34,239 --> 00:35:36,119
like travel out to us in a way, right, which

654
00:35:36,519 --> 00:35:39,559
again I don't necessarily think is fair. But I wanted

655
00:35:39,559 --> 00:35:41,920
to understand if there was a taint or if there

656
00:35:42,039 --> 00:35:45,199
was this thing from it, Like, I wanted to work

657
00:35:45,239 --> 00:35:47,360
to understand it from a place that it might exist,

658
00:35:48,119 --> 00:35:52,719
rather than kind of this more distance approach that seemed

659
00:35:52,760 --> 00:35:56,440
to be natural to the rest of my family. So

660
00:35:56,719 --> 00:35:59,440
I don't know that was maybe maybe an over explanation

661
00:35:59,480 --> 00:36:02,320
of an answer, but that was certainly how it felt.

662
00:36:02,559 --> 00:36:04,480
Speaker 1: I think it's interesting because to me, it kind of

663
00:36:04,519 --> 00:36:07,400
speaks to like, and I've never been religious, but I've

664
00:36:07,400 --> 00:36:11,119
spent a lot of time with Mormons, in particular, this

665
00:36:11,360 --> 00:36:18,119
inability to really interrogate the impact of your religion on

666
00:36:18,159 --> 00:36:20,440
its congregants and kind of like, well, we don't want

667
00:36:20,480 --> 00:36:24,760
to attach this to like more holistic things like the

668
00:36:24,840 --> 00:36:27,760
Keys family or either of the religions Keys was involved in,

669
00:36:27,800 --> 00:36:29,639
and we're just going to say Keys was a bad apple.

670
00:36:29,719 --> 00:36:32,840
Like I do think it's fascinating and very indicative of religion.

671
00:36:33,400 --> 00:36:39,039
Speaker 2: Yeah, and what's interesting to me, And again, they certainly

672
00:36:39,079 --> 00:36:42,559
had their own very unique profile in terms of religious

673
00:36:42,599 --> 00:36:47,039
affiliations that obviously has continued. Some of the things I've

674
00:36:47,079 --> 00:36:51,039
heard about Heidi sense, you know, all made sense to

675
00:36:51,079 --> 00:36:52,880
me in the way that maybe my parents were being

676
00:36:52,880 --> 00:36:55,719
treated in some ways is like there's this way of

677
00:36:55,760 --> 00:36:59,760
garnering support that's unconventional. One of the kind of almost

678
00:37:01,199 --> 00:37:04,559
joke level things is like people leave the Mormon faith

679
00:37:04,599 --> 00:37:08,480
and then love mushrooms. I've never done mushrooms, but like,

680
00:37:09,199 --> 00:37:12,719
you know, it's kind of a maybe further expanded version

681
00:37:12,760 --> 00:37:15,159
of like somebody who leaves the Mormon faith tries alcohol

682
00:37:15,239 --> 00:37:16,880
for the first time, and it's just like, oh, I've

683
00:37:16,880 --> 00:37:20,480
been lied to. Yeah, right, Like I don't feel like

684
00:37:20,559 --> 00:37:25,519
driving my car into any schools, right, I just I'm

685
00:37:25,559 --> 00:37:28,559
just a little bit loopy and laughing more easily at

686
00:37:28,559 --> 00:37:31,800
people's jokes or whatever, whatever the effects are. I think

687
00:37:31,800 --> 00:37:34,599
of that in some ways where I do think certain

688
00:37:34,679 --> 00:37:38,159
rules in religion or somewhat arbitrary in terms of like,

689
00:37:39,000 --> 00:37:40,760
you know, how else am I going to understand if

690
00:37:40,760 --> 00:37:43,960
you're taking this barrier seriously other than to give you

691
00:37:44,199 --> 00:37:47,199
one that's asinine, But if you follow it, then I

692
00:37:47,239 --> 00:37:51,480
can understand that you've kind of accepted that we've agreed

693
00:37:51,519 --> 00:37:55,079
to this as a boundary right, And that relays back

694
00:37:55,119 --> 00:37:57,000
to me as a leader of that you know that

695
00:37:57,400 --> 00:38:01,840
you're not necessarily under my control, but like we're aligned.

696
00:38:01,920 --> 00:38:03,599
I have some influence with you, and now I can

697
00:38:03,639 --> 00:38:06,719
feel better about, you know, whatever it is we talk

698
00:38:06,760 --> 00:38:09,119
about or do. And I just have to think of

699
00:38:09,599 --> 00:38:12,119
how many of those layers must have existed for somebody

700
00:38:12,159 --> 00:38:15,559
like Israel who had this very limited life experience, this

701
00:38:15,800 --> 00:38:20,199
very stringent kind of ideology and everything else around him,

702
00:38:20,320 --> 00:38:22,840
and there's only so much for him to glean from,

703
00:38:22,840 --> 00:38:25,039
like the world around him, because it just wasn't there

704
00:38:25,159 --> 00:38:27,679
in a lot of ways, right, So the number of

705
00:38:27,719 --> 00:38:30,719
times there must have been some example or some version

706
00:38:30,760 --> 00:38:33,360
of that in his in his growing up or joining

707
00:38:33,400 --> 00:38:36,360
the military or whatever else where, he's just like, oh,

708
00:38:36,400 --> 00:38:39,480
that's what it is. Well, you know, we're like, I

709
00:38:39,480 --> 00:38:42,639
don't know. I have to think that that played played

710
00:38:42,679 --> 00:38:47,800
some role or at least, you know, complicated his ability

711
00:38:47,840 --> 00:38:52,199
to navigate the world when he came across it, you know,

712
00:38:52,280 --> 00:38:55,960
as as an adult or somebody who should have been yeah,

713
00:38:56,000 --> 00:38:57,920
somebody who should have been an autonomous adult.

714
00:38:58,480 --> 00:39:00,960
Speaker 1: I give him a lot of credit for existing in

715
00:39:01,039 --> 00:39:05,840
such severe monoculture and then being an independent enough thinker

716
00:39:05,880 --> 00:39:08,960
to challenge a lot of that. You know, he was bisexual,

717
00:39:09,119 --> 00:39:15,119
he dated black women, he lived on indigenous reservations, and

718
00:39:15,199 --> 00:39:18,199
I think in a culture like that, where you're surrounded

719
00:39:18,199 --> 00:39:20,519
by everybody who has a strong shared belief, it would

720
00:39:20,519 --> 00:39:23,400
be very hard to think outside that box. So I

721
00:39:23,440 --> 00:39:25,559
give him credit for that, But then I also wonder, like,

722
00:39:26,159 --> 00:39:29,480
what did that develop for future autonomous Israel.

723
00:39:30,559 --> 00:39:34,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, and the other way to think about it

724
00:39:34,480 --> 00:39:39,320
would be I existed in this like fairly difficult, you

725
00:39:39,360 --> 00:39:42,440
know whatever setting, So how is that possible? There was

726
00:39:42,519 --> 00:39:45,880
like this little version of support group whatever else? So like,

727
00:39:46,320 --> 00:39:48,320
does the version that I now maybe have a different

728
00:39:48,400 --> 00:39:51,679
version of support group? Does the need for that trump

729
00:39:51,920 --> 00:39:54,840
the ideology that might lead me to pick one group

730
00:39:54,920 --> 00:39:57,400
versus another? But this one is the one that's available

731
00:39:57,400 --> 00:40:00,599
to me, and having those things is so much more

732
00:40:00,719 --> 00:40:04,800
a priority than something else. I don't know I'm inventing

733
00:40:05,519 --> 00:40:09,960
at this point, but but yeah, it's and those were

734
00:40:10,039 --> 00:40:13,239
things I would try to think about, right, obviously with

735
00:40:13,320 --> 00:40:17,400
no new sources of information at the time, but it

736
00:40:17,480 --> 00:40:19,920
was it was interesting to struggle with some of that

737
00:40:20,599 --> 00:40:26,519
and then you know, some some difficulty when we eventually

738
00:40:26,599 --> 00:40:29,320
my wife and I moved back to Utah for some

739
00:40:29,320 --> 00:40:35,360
some family reasons with her family, and I'm trying. It

740
00:40:35,360 --> 00:40:37,760
really was a lot of it was around that education book.

741
00:40:37,800 --> 00:40:39,719
We were in a book club, and like, you know,

742
00:40:39,800 --> 00:40:43,400
my wife, like anybody else her age and demographic whatever,

743
00:40:43,800 --> 00:40:46,159
very interested in true crime. But it was like it

744
00:40:46,199 --> 00:40:48,039
was like a third rail for me, Like if if

745
00:40:48,079 --> 00:40:50,760
I caught the wrong five minutes of like a Criminal

746
00:40:50,800 --> 00:40:54,239
Minds episode, like I would, I would struggle because it's

747
00:40:54,280 --> 00:40:57,440
just like too real. The other thing that happened to me,

748
00:40:58,000 --> 00:41:00,559
you know, so Israel dying in late twenty twelve, fast

749
00:41:00,599 --> 00:41:04,800
forward to Charlottesville, and like I went years without wearing

750
00:41:04,880 --> 00:41:08,599
a polo or a pair of khakis, like just in

751
00:41:08,639 --> 00:41:13,920
total because like that's not that's not like a I

752
00:41:14,000 --> 00:41:16,360
don't know, Like I know that that stuff is real.

753
00:41:17,000 --> 00:41:18,760
I know that those people really feel that way. I

754
00:41:18,800 --> 00:41:21,920
know those people can really be dangerous under the right circumstances.

755
00:41:21,960 --> 00:41:23,480
I also know they're full of shit in a lot

756
00:41:23,519 --> 00:41:26,519
of ways, and as weak and challenge as the rest

757
00:41:26,559 --> 00:41:29,880
of us are about you know, our stage in life

758
00:41:29,960 --> 00:41:32,920
or whatever. But like there were certain things like that

759
00:41:32,960 --> 00:41:38,440
where and then when it became a curiosity in a way.

760
00:41:38,480 --> 00:41:40,119
It was like, you know, I could tell like my

761
00:41:40,159 --> 00:41:42,920
wife was more comfortable about it and like wanted me

762
00:41:42,960 --> 00:41:44,400
to tell some of the people in the book club

763
00:41:44,400 --> 00:41:45,960
and whatever else, and it was just like I'm not

764
00:41:46,679 --> 00:41:48,760
I don't know how to be a person that can

765
00:41:48,840 --> 00:41:50,239
talk about it. And also I don't know what the

766
00:41:50,320 --> 00:41:53,000
value is, like what am I what am I bringing there?

767
00:41:53,000 --> 00:41:55,000
And so this is this is the closest thing I

768
00:41:55,079 --> 00:41:58,599
found to a platform where I think it could potentially

769
00:41:58,599 --> 00:42:02,360
contribute anything to any one by sharing.

770
00:42:03,199 --> 00:42:05,840
Speaker 1: I think it's incredibly helpful.

771
00:42:07,400 --> 00:42:07,639
Speaker 3: For me.

772
00:42:07,760 --> 00:42:10,840
Speaker 1: Like I'm not black and white about it. I think

773
00:42:11,400 --> 00:42:14,599
we can better understand his crimes if we better understand him,

774
00:42:14,639 --> 00:42:18,239
and that concludes the good parts. So I don't see

775
00:42:18,280 --> 00:42:21,119
him as like holistically evil or you know, think that

776
00:42:21,159 --> 00:42:24,320
this is all about identifying the bad parts of keys

777
00:42:24,360 --> 00:42:27,559
to identify the bad that he did. I think it's

778
00:42:27,800 --> 00:42:31,639
you know, not one thing in a weird way, right,

779
00:42:31,760 --> 00:42:36,199
Like I'm I'm sure there was this dichotomy of kind

780
00:42:36,199 --> 00:42:38,480
of juggling these two people for him, if that's how

781
00:42:38,519 --> 00:42:42,239
he came to understand it, which is like if I

782
00:42:42,280 --> 00:42:44,440
just want to go be a bad dude, like this

783
00:42:44,519 --> 00:42:46,239
is just just just becomes a.

784
00:42:46,199 --> 00:42:48,440
Speaker 2: Spree and I don't have to plan for the long term,

785
00:42:48,519 --> 00:42:50,679
I don't have to do whatever else.

786
00:42:50,719 --> 00:42:51,320
Speaker 3: And so like.

787
00:42:52,960 --> 00:42:56,599
Speaker 2: That was another kind of puzzling thing to think through

788
00:42:56,599 --> 00:42:59,239
for me because like maybe in a way, that's a

789
00:42:59,320 --> 00:43:01,039
version of what happen as he was getting to a

790
00:43:01,079 --> 00:43:03,599
point where that that side was winning out by the way,

791
00:43:03,639 --> 00:43:05,440
I think. I think it was one of your podcasts

792
00:43:05,440 --> 00:43:08,039
where you were talking about like like this guy wasn't

793
00:43:08,039 --> 00:43:10,719
really that solid on the details, like he got he

794
00:43:10,800 --> 00:43:12,719
got away with him stuff for a while. Like that

795
00:43:12,719 --> 00:43:15,440
that resonated. It made sense to me because it's like,

796
00:43:16,119 --> 00:43:18,440
I don't know, the first person you see juggle, it's

797
00:43:18,480 --> 00:43:20,719
just like, oh, holy shit, how does this guy do this?

798
00:43:21,360 --> 00:43:21,480
Speaker 3: Right?

799
00:43:21,599 --> 00:43:23,760
Speaker 2: But it's like you put him next to somebody who's

800
00:43:24,000 --> 00:43:25,840
really good at juggling and it's like okay, So like

801
00:43:26,119 --> 00:43:28,440
he's kind of doing the same thing that was That

802
00:43:28,480 --> 00:43:29,920
was that was like kind of how I thought about

803
00:43:29,960 --> 00:43:33,320
it at the time, because it's like, we're not like

804
00:43:33,360 --> 00:43:37,639
the devastating thing that happened with Charlie Kirk, which is

805
00:43:37,719 --> 00:43:39,840
not too far down the road. It was a similar

806
00:43:39,920 --> 00:43:41,480
kind of thing. Right, some people are like, oh, this

807
00:43:41,559 --> 00:43:44,800
must be like military train sniper and other people are

808
00:43:44,800 --> 00:43:48,159
like or somebody who's ever been deer hunting right like that.

809
00:43:48,280 --> 00:43:50,320
It was, it was that kind of a thing, and

810
00:43:50,320 --> 00:43:52,760
and I think that was I think that was an

811
00:43:52,760 --> 00:43:56,880
important note in the podcast that there were lots of

812
00:43:57,480 --> 00:43:59,639
sloppiness or whatever else. I don't know where I'm trying

813
00:43:59,679 --> 00:44:04,320
to go with this, but that was interesting and helpful

814
00:44:04,480 --> 00:44:05,840
to me in a way that I'm not sure I

815
00:44:05,920 --> 00:44:10,000
understand that. It was a helpful version of exploring that

816
00:44:10,519 --> 00:44:11,360
for what that's worth.

817
00:44:12,280 --> 00:44:14,920
Speaker 1: I only have a few more questions, and they're kind

818
00:44:14,960 --> 00:44:17,199
of I don't know, on the darker side of things.

819
00:44:17,880 --> 00:44:19,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, when you found out.

820
00:44:21,559 --> 00:44:24,880
Speaker 1: Initially that his crimes had a sexual component to them,

821
00:44:25,320 --> 00:44:26,760
what what?

822
00:44:26,519 --> 00:44:27,800
Speaker 3: What wenten for your head?

823
00:44:33,440 --> 00:44:38,159
Speaker 2: So I being the type of person that I am,

824
00:44:38,519 --> 00:44:43,920
I and maybe better understanding my own sexuality and my

825
00:44:44,000 --> 00:44:50,159
relation to it. I I know some fairly intimate details

826
00:44:50,159 --> 00:44:54,320
about some of my friends who have been sexually assaulted, so.

827
00:45:01,719 --> 00:45:13,320
Speaker 3: We don't have to go there. I think it was.

828
00:45:15,239 --> 00:45:18,840
Speaker 2: It was more difficult to hear from that perspective, and

829
00:45:18,880 --> 00:45:25,960
in a weird way, you know, none of the none

830
00:45:26,000 --> 00:45:29,079
of the women in my life who have shared any

831
00:45:29,119 --> 00:45:33,960
of that with me to any degree had been attacked

832
00:45:34,000 --> 00:45:40,320
by a by a professional kind of somebody. I don't

833
00:45:40,360 --> 00:45:44,119
know the right way to say that, but and so

834
00:45:44,280 --> 00:45:52,599
it was I I had a hard time fathoming one

835
00:45:52,679 --> 00:45:55,840
version of it that I had heard about that I

836
00:45:55,920 --> 00:45:59,239
did believe. I certainly didn't know how to wrap my

837
00:45:59,280 --> 00:46:05,199
head around as somebody who could live with themselves performing

838
00:46:05,239 --> 00:46:10,599
some of those things and sequestering that in some way, right, And.

839
00:46:13,280 --> 00:46:13,559
Speaker 3: So that.

840
00:46:15,039 --> 00:46:18,840
Speaker 2: Became very difficult to understand. And I even kind of

841
00:46:19,440 --> 00:46:24,400
understood within that experience of you know, trying to process

842
00:46:24,480 --> 00:46:28,599
this that I knew I had probably a different relationship

843
00:46:28,639 --> 00:46:31,800
to the way some people might experience sexual need or

844
00:46:31,840 --> 00:46:36,199
sexual desire, Like I just had observed enough differences in period.

845
00:46:36,239 --> 00:46:40,880
But like it was, I don't know, it was so

846
00:46:42,480 --> 00:46:48,239
like challenging to even wrap my head around. And then

847
00:46:48,320 --> 00:46:50,559
of course there were like three more layers of that

848
00:46:50,639 --> 00:46:52,800
when you know, the first time it might have been

849
00:46:52,800 --> 00:46:55,519
your podcast or something else, when I heard more of

850
00:46:55,559 --> 00:46:59,639
the nature and the timeline of the crimes, particularly with Samantha,

851
00:47:00,079 --> 00:47:02,440
where there were so many like kind of layers and

852
00:47:03,599 --> 00:47:06,480
you know, events and like the proximity to fant like

853
00:47:06,519 --> 00:47:09,239
whatever else and it's just like, you know, probably took

854
00:47:09,280 --> 00:47:12,559
me a month to listen to whatever that podcast episode

855
00:47:12,599 --> 00:47:14,159
was that where that was some of that was happening,

856
00:47:14,199 --> 00:47:17,239
because you know, and by by then it was important

857
00:47:17,239 --> 00:47:19,840
to me to get through to the other side of it.

858
00:47:19,880 --> 00:47:22,079
There had been some time, there had been some other things,

859
00:47:22,800 --> 00:47:26,199
and it was almost in a way, it was just

860
00:47:26,199 --> 00:47:30,639
more important for me to just like I call it

861
00:47:30,679 --> 00:47:33,559
exposure therapy, right, like, I don't in a way, I

862
00:47:33,559 --> 00:47:37,760
don't want to learn this information by accident in a

863
00:47:37,760 --> 00:47:40,559
setting where somebody it's either being talked about or it's

864
00:47:40,599 --> 00:47:43,079
being readdressed in the news and they're just like not

865
00:47:43,320 --> 00:47:45,000
you know. This is somewhat similar to the smanth of

866
00:47:45,039 --> 00:47:48,519
coding case where X y Z also happened and be like,

867
00:47:48,599 --> 00:47:52,920
oh shit, I didn't know so, but it was.

868
00:47:54,719 --> 00:47:54,920
Speaker 3: Yeah.

869
00:47:54,920 --> 00:47:57,880
Speaker 2: And again it's not that I had this idea of

870
00:47:58,679 --> 00:48:01,079
a Israel in my mind, of him like throwing his

871
00:48:01,119 --> 00:48:04,840
coat over puddles for elderly women crossing the street or

872
00:48:04,880 --> 00:48:08,199
things like that, but it was I guess the jarring

873
00:48:08,239 --> 00:48:11,440
part was on the other side of it. There's one

874
00:48:11,440 --> 00:48:14,480
thing I haven't told you, partially because it's just crazy

875
00:48:14,559 --> 00:48:17,079
enough that like I don't really expect people to believe it,

876
00:48:17,159 --> 00:48:20,679
and I almost have a fear that it could be

877
00:48:20,719 --> 00:48:23,920
fifty percent invented fifty percent real. I very much believe

878
00:48:23,920 --> 00:48:26,840
it's real. But we would do a thing called rat bashing.

879
00:48:27,400 --> 00:48:30,519
They were like old abandoned sheds. We would just get

880
00:48:30,679 --> 00:48:33,159
sharp objects and whatever else. And again it was not

881
00:48:33,800 --> 00:48:36,480
it was something that I was more goaded to participate in.

882
00:48:36,599 --> 00:48:39,639
And it was horrifying and it was whatever, but there

883
00:48:39,719 --> 00:48:42,360
was like it was like the it was like my

884
00:48:42,480 --> 00:48:44,480
ani ing up right to be at the poker hand.

885
00:48:44,519 --> 00:48:46,239
Speaker 3: I'm going to lose all my money by the end.

886
00:48:46,119 --> 00:48:50,159
Speaker 2: Of this, but like I would rather do this than

887
00:48:50,440 --> 00:48:52,400
you know, wander off by myself or whatever else you

888
00:48:52,400 --> 00:48:55,000
want to call it. I'm being defensive here. I don't

889
00:48:55,000 --> 00:48:58,000
think you're you're trying to do that. But like I

890
00:48:58,760 --> 00:49:00,920
I can remember this arcs shed even though it's the

891
00:49:00,960 --> 00:49:03,039
middle of the day, so maybe kind of like some

892
00:49:03,639 --> 00:49:07,920
utility building or something to that effect. And it was

893
00:49:07,800 --> 00:49:09,920
it was just like rats crawling all over each other.

894
00:49:10,039 --> 00:49:10,559
Speaker 3: They had like.

895
00:49:10,679 --> 00:49:15,199
Speaker 2: Found this place and nested and whatever else, and you

896
00:49:15,199 --> 00:49:17,199
would only hear what other people are doing. We could

897
00:49:17,239 --> 00:49:22,159
not see inside the building, and I remember, you know,

898
00:49:22,519 --> 00:49:24,559
kind of just being in there just long enough and

899
00:49:24,559 --> 00:49:26,800
then like kind of seeing where the one silver of

900
00:49:26,880 --> 00:49:28,400
light is and be like, okay, I'm out of here

901
00:49:28,480 --> 00:49:31,039
right And partially because people are swinging sharp objects, I

902
00:49:31,079 --> 00:49:34,599
don't know how close they are to me. But that

903
00:49:34,760 --> 00:49:39,920
was like, so so I say, there's this impossibility to

904
00:49:39,920 --> 00:49:43,199
wrap my head around this thing. But at the same time,

905
00:49:43,280 --> 00:49:45,679
there's this other part of me that's just like, am

906
00:49:45,719 --> 00:49:48,320
I allowed to be surprised at this, like in a

907
00:49:48,400 --> 00:49:53,960
sense like that, you know, I just I had seen

908
00:49:54,719 --> 00:49:59,920
I guess unique enough behavior and kind of this more

909
00:50:00,000 --> 00:50:02,440
normalization in a way. And I don't know how he

910
00:50:02,519 --> 00:50:06,400
even got to the normalization of the of the rat bashing,

911
00:50:06,440 --> 00:50:10,360
for instance, but you know, so I far be it

912
00:50:10,360 --> 00:50:11,719
from me to wout my head around something else.

913
00:50:11,719 --> 00:50:14,079
Speaker 3: So that juxtaposition was.

914
00:50:13,920 --> 00:50:20,639
Speaker 2: Probably the weirdest part to swallow, trying to make it

915
00:50:20,719 --> 00:50:24,400
somewhat analogous to something I had known in my life

916
00:50:24,519 --> 00:50:27,679
it's obviously not. And then at the same time hold

917
00:50:27,719 --> 00:50:30,440
out in next to all the indications I would have

918
00:50:30,480 --> 00:50:33,320
had that, you know, like I remember being in like

919
00:50:33,360 --> 00:50:36,280
high school sociology class later on, or you know, something

920
00:50:36,320 --> 00:50:40,000
to that effect, and them talking about the consistencies of

921
00:50:40,719 --> 00:50:44,880
animal abuse and bedwetting and whatever else and you know,

922
00:50:45,400 --> 00:50:48,280
serial killers or criminals of a certain type. And you know,

923
00:50:49,199 --> 00:50:52,320
it was just like kind of like just shut your

924
00:50:52,360 --> 00:50:54,000
mouth and try not to think about it kind of

925
00:50:54,000 --> 00:50:56,000
a thing. Not that any of it was so egregious,

926
00:50:56,000 --> 00:50:59,239
but it was. It was just like, oh, shoot, I'm

927
00:50:59,280 --> 00:51:03,840
not you know, made me feel bad or like worried

928
00:51:03,840 --> 00:51:05,679
for myself in a way, even even when I was

929
00:51:05,719 --> 00:51:08,480
hearing that in my high school sociology class.

930
00:51:09,639 --> 00:51:13,400
Speaker 1: That makes sense, but I also think you're a dumb

931
00:51:13,519 --> 00:51:19,800
kid trying to fit in. I mean, yes, nine exactly.

932
00:51:19,920 --> 00:51:22,079
Speaker 2: And by the way, like I've done other things where

933
00:51:22,079 --> 00:51:23,960
it is just like, oh shit, this could this could

934
00:51:23,960 --> 00:51:26,480
be for me, right, Like the first time I was

935
00:51:26,519 --> 00:51:28,400
doing ninety on a highway, I was just like, oh,

936
00:51:28,639 --> 00:51:29,519
this could be a habit.

937
00:51:30,000 --> 00:51:30,199
Speaker 4: You know.

938
00:51:30,320 --> 00:51:32,599
Speaker 2: I don't don't let me near any country roads, you know.

939
00:51:32,679 --> 00:51:35,880
And so so I'm comfortable enough with myself that I

940
00:51:35,920 --> 00:51:39,000
now have a sense of you know, I don't have

941
00:51:39,000 --> 00:51:41,400
any concern from the standpoint of like, oh I was

942
00:51:41,800 --> 00:51:44,000
I was getting you know, some juice out of that,

943
00:51:44,280 --> 00:51:46,920
and now I feel bad about that because I had

944
00:51:46,920 --> 00:51:50,559
that proclivity or whatever. So I thankfully I'm comfortable enough

945
00:51:50,559 --> 00:51:54,920
with some of those things, but taking some taking some

946
00:51:55,039 --> 00:51:56,880
time just to I guess, reassure myself.

947
00:51:56,880 --> 00:51:58,719
Speaker 3: I don't think I ever really felt the other way.

948
00:51:58,719 --> 00:52:07,920
Speaker 1: But yeah, when you found out he was bisexual, that

949
00:52:08,119 --> 00:52:09,440
did that come as a surprise to you.

950
00:52:10,119 --> 00:52:14,719
Speaker 2: It did come as a surprise to me. And in fact,

951
00:52:14,840 --> 00:52:20,119
there was like a moment in time where I kind

952
00:52:20,119 --> 00:52:22,920
of putting the putting the israel Keys lens on it,

953
00:52:23,000 --> 00:52:26,840
or at least what I knew of family background everything else.

954
00:52:26,880 --> 00:52:28,480
And at the time I'm having this thought, I don't

955
00:52:28,480 --> 00:52:31,079
think I knew about Tammy or that he had dated

956
00:52:31,280 --> 00:52:37,079
women who were part of the bipod community. Certainly wasn't

957
00:52:37,119 --> 00:52:40,719
aware of you know, him being with I want to

958
00:52:40,719 --> 00:52:44,000
be careful here, but with like you know, trends, trends

959
00:52:44,079 --> 00:52:46,559
or I want to say, one of my initial thoughts

960
00:52:46,599 --> 00:52:49,119
putting that lens on it was just like, oh, I

961
00:52:49,159 --> 00:52:53,039
wonder if this was like a weird like throwing them

962
00:52:53,039 --> 00:52:56,079
off the scent kind of a thing of like or

963
00:52:56,639 --> 00:52:59,760
the idea that like the killing was the more important

964
00:52:59,760 --> 00:53:02,639
aspect for him. And in terms of like, you know,

965
00:53:02,719 --> 00:53:05,320
the the high that he needed or whatever else like,

966
00:53:06,599 --> 00:53:08,639
and that was me like trying to apply the lens

967
00:53:08,719 --> 00:53:11,559
to it. And then as some of that settled and

968
00:53:11,599 --> 00:53:14,800
I learned more of the other details, that that's when

969
00:53:14,800 --> 00:53:17,119
I started to have more of the feeling of just like, oh,

970
00:53:17,159 --> 00:53:19,880
if this is something that he had like maybe understood

971
00:53:19,880 --> 00:53:23,519
about himself any younger age, he had years and years

972
00:53:23,559 --> 00:53:26,480
and years to try to figure out how to even

973
00:53:26,480 --> 00:53:30,320
be able to explore or think about or consider like,

974
00:53:30,880 --> 00:53:33,039
but it was not there was not going to be

975
00:53:33,039 --> 00:53:35,119
an opportunity in front of him. He was going to

976
00:53:35,159 --> 00:53:38,719
be an opportunity he would have to find and then

977
00:53:39,000 --> 00:53:40,400
you know, how to do that in a way that

978
00:53:41,400 --> 00:53:42,639
you know, would not would.

979
00:53:42,440 --> 00:53:43,559
Speaker 3: Not cost him socially.

980
00:53:44,360 --> 00:53:48,039
Speaker 2: Yeah, And that that became that came to way more

981
00:53:48,079 --> 00:53:50,719
and more in my mind in terms of how, you know,

982
00:53:50,920 --> 00:53:55,199
somebody might have developed a very unhealthy relationship with how

983
00:53:55,239 --> 00:53:57,360
to find the things that they were desiring.

984
00:53:58,039 --> 00:54:00,159
Speaker 1: It's interesting I never thought about it like this, but

985
00:54:00,400 --> 00:54:03,039
you know, I was gay and only a few years

986
00:54:03,079 --> 00:54:06,360
younger than Israel, and like growing up at that time,

987
00:54:06,719 --> 00:54:08,960
like I still have a lot of rage for just

988
00:54:09,000 --> 00:54:11,079
the way people talked about and treated gay people. And

989
00:54:11,119 --> 00:54:14,199
then you think the environment he's in is like ten

990
00:54:14,280 --> 00:54:18,519
times is homophobic, and there isn't any space to have

991
00:54:18,599 --> 00:54:21,079
a differing point of view. And I'm sure that instilled

992
00:54:21,199 --> 00:54:24,280
a lot of long term anger inside of him.

993
00:54:24,840 --> 00:54:29,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's and that's part of why I like

994
00:54:29,679 --> 00:54:32,880
having learned those things, Like it did make me like

995
00:54:33,760 --> 00:54:36,280
kind of investigating my own experience of it. Right, not

996
00:54:36,320 --> 00:54:38,599
to say that I I should have been some target

997
00:54:38,639 --> 00:54:41,920
of his admiration or anything, but it's like, you know,

998
00:54:42,159 --> 00:54:45,760
I don't know when he might have understood that about himself, right.

999
00:54:45,880 --> 00:54:50,039
I am of the opinion that you know, people are

1000
00:54:50,239 --> 00:54:53,239
you know, more or less born that way. That's part

1001
00:54:53,239 --> 00:54:56,280
of our you know, we kind of have some built

1002
00:54:56,280 --> 00:54:58,960
in programming in a way. And so I don't know

1003
00:54:59,000 --> 00:55:01,480
when he might have been aware of that. But certainly

1004
00:55:01,480 --> 00:55:05,199
if it was, you know, he was he was effective

1005
00:55:05,239 --> 00:55:08,760
at masking it if it was, or or avoiding the topics.

1006
00:55:08,880 --> 00:55:13,880
But but again, it didn't it felt authentic once I

1007
00:55:13,960 --> 00:55:15,840
learned enough of the other factors, Like you were saying,

1008
00:55:15,880 --> 00:55:18,480
he had had this environment, but then like once he

1009
00:55:18,599 --> 00:55:22,000
was had other communities available to him, he was not

1010
00:55:22,960 --> 00:55:26,639
He was not timid about you know, trying to assimilate

1011
00:55:26,719 --> 00:55:29,480
or become a part of those and it can be helpful, right.

1012
00:55:29,519 --> 00:55:32,079
I think the the NA based stuff, I think he

1013
00:55:32,559 --> 00:55:35,360
probably maybe like that older brother thing, kind of felt

1014
00:55:35,440 --> 00:55:37,400
very good about the way that he could contribute there.

1015
00:55:38,599 --> 00:55:42,280
To borrow your analogy talking about Kim, that might have

1016
00:55:42,360 --> 00:55:47,599
felt very very different in contrast. Right, So that's that

1017
00:55:47,679 --> 00:55:49,559
was interesting to think about and how that might have

1018
00:55:50,199 --> 00:55:55,760
impacted his seeking opportunities to commit the crimes that he committed.

1019
00:55:55,840 --> 00:55:58,400
Speaker 1: Well, and like you said, his ability to like assimilate

1020
00:55:58,440 --> 00:56:01,239
into a community. He spent his whole childhood asking who

1021
00:56:01,239 --> 00:56:03,920
he really was and trying to fit in and doing

1022
00:56:03,920 --> 00:56:05,039
it somewhat successfully.

1023
00:56:05,199 --> 00:56:09,559
Speaker 2: So yeah, So, which, by the way, is just another

1024
00:56:10,639 --> 00:56:14,920
you know, heart kind of heartbreaking thing. I don't know

1025
00:56:14,920 --> 00:56:17,199
why this stood out to me as much as it did,

1026
00:56:17,199 --> 00:56:23,760
but just I guess, person to person, the my I

1027
00:56:23,800 --> 00:56:28,039
guess my last straw whatever with the LDS Church was

1028
00:56:28,039 --> 00:56:31,599
my cousin Lance, who was the second in his family,

1029
00:56:31,639 --> 00:56:35,960
and my uncle Dan on one side. They were both

1030
00:56:36,480 --> 00:56:38,960
both came in. I would hear the way they were

1031
00:56:38,960 --> 00:56:42,599
talked about by their own grandmothers or their mothers or

1032
00:56:42,639 --> 00:56:45,920
whatever when when they weren't around, and some of the stuff,

1033
00:56:45,920 --> 00:56:48,800
and like it was, it was something I never got

1034
00:56:48,840 --> 00:56:53,719
over and I had enough of my own, you know.

1035
00:56:54,039 --> 00:56:58,960
I just it was an interesting thing. And again that's

1036
00:56:59,239 --> 00:57:03,880
a very water day version of what somebody in Coleville

1037
00:57:03,960 --> 00:57:09,440
or that area would have would have experienced. And I

1038
00:57:09,440 --> 00:57:12,400
mean it makes me happy in a lot of ways

1039
00:57:13,599 --> 00:57:16,119
for what it's worth. Again the person to person's side.

1040
00:57:16,519 --> 00:57:19,800
I was at a professional event waiting for Gavin Newsom

1041
00:57:19,840 --> 00:57:27,440
to speak the morning of the oberger Fell decision. So we,

1042
00:57:27,480 --> 00:57:30,199
like hundreds of us, sat in the ball room in

1043
00:57:30,239 --> 00:57:33,199
the financial district of San Francisco. He was at least

1044
00:57:33,239 --> 00:57:35,800
an hour and a half late, and we all sat

1045
00:57:35,840 --> 00:57:39,320
there and listened to him for you know, forty five

1046
00:57:39,360 --> 00:57:41,119
minutes until you had to leave and go somewhere else.

1047
00:57:41,159 --> 00:57:44,400
And that was I was quite an experience. But anyway,

1048
00:57:44,440 --> 00:57:48,400
it makes me very grateful for the areas where where

1049
00:57:48,480 --> 00:57:51,400
progress has happened. And it's it's very scary to think

1050
00:57:51,440 --> 00:57:55,400
of this as one of the potentially one of the

1051
00:57:55,440 --> 00:58:02,639
avoidable outcomes of bigotry. And yeah, I want to I

1052
00:58:02,679 --> 00:58:04,679
would love to watch more poetic but I think that's

1053
00:58:04,719 --> 00:58:05,719
what I got there without.

1054
00:58:08,039 --> 00:58:11,679
Speaker 1: I mean, I guess to close things. It's very clear

1055
00:58:11,679 --> 00:58:15,920
to me who Israel was and who he became has

1056
00:58:15,960 --> 00:58:18,639
had a huge impact on you, and that you've spent

1057
00:58:18,719 --> 00:58:20,719
a lot of time, I guess, not even just thinking

1058
00:58:20,719 --> 00:58:23,760
about it, interrogating your own experiences. Do you want to

1059
00:58:23,760 --> 00:58:25,840
touch on that at all?

1060
00:58:26,119 --> 00:58:29,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, so I I'm trying to think of how much

1061
00:58:29,960 --> 00:58:32,920
this even has one thing has to do with another.

1062
00:58:34,079 --> 00:58:39,159
I think there's a very interesting parallel in a way,

1063
00:58:39,559 --> 00:58:42,519
like you could call it a diet version. And I

1064
00:58:42,519 --> 00:58:46,199
don't think I saw all of this right away, right

1065
00:58:46,280 --> 00:58:48,960
but there were there were things in ways that I

1066
00:58:49,000 --> 00:58:54,000
had to be to live in my household, to grow up,

1067
00:58:54,480 --> 00:58:58,719
you know, kind of keep the peace and whatever else.

1068
00:59:00,239 --> 00:59:01,079
Speaker 3: And I.

1069
00:59:03,079 --> 00:59:07,480
Speaker 2: Naturally grew to resent my parents for continuing to have children,

1070
00:59:08,159 --> 00:59:10,599
which is a weird instance. I was talking with a

1071
00:59:10,679 --> 00:59:14,440
therapist and was like kind of laying this thing out

1072
00:59:14,440 --> 00:59:18,320
when my sister that passed away nineteen ninety eight, sorry

1073
00:59:18,320 --> 00:59:20,719
she was born in ninety seven, passed away early in

1074
00:59:20,760 --> 00:59:23,800
nineteen ninety eight. I think I misspoke earlier when I

1075
00:59:23,840 --> 00:59:29,440
was talking about that, Like there was a part of

1076
00:59:29,480 --> 00:59:31,239
me that felt like I did it in a way

1077
00:59:31,280 --> 00:59:34,800
because like that was you know, I was like fourteen

1078
00:59:34,960 --> 00:59:37,760
when she was born. I was just like, I don't

1079
00:59:37,800 --> 00:59:41,079
understand what's going on here. I'm not being consulted, like

1080
00:59:41,360 --> 00:59:45,000
I'm part of the support system here. And thankfully I

1081
00:59:45,039 --> 00:59:49,599
have some very good memories of my sister who passed away. Like,

1082
00:59:50,360 --> 00:59:53,000
you know, I'm down in my room doing schoolwork or

1083
00:59:53,000 --> 00:59:55,559
whatever else I was doing, goofing off, and she was just.

1084
00:59:55,519 --> 00:59:57,320
Speaker 3: Crying and crying and crying, crying, crying.

1085
00:59:57,559 --> 01:00:01,760
Speaker 2: So I just quit what I was doing, went upstairs,

1086
01:00:02,679 --> 01:00:06,159
rocked her to sleep, put her back to sleep, and

1087
01:00:07,199 --> 01:00:09,880
so but there was this weird feeling of like my

1088
01:00:10,039 --> 01:00:15,599
having to participate in kind of the adult aspects of

1089
01:00:16,239 --> 01:00:20,000
the family when it's not something I saw. One of

1090
01:00:20,039 --> 01:00:21,760
the reasons I don't have any children on my own,

1091
01:00:21,920 --> 01:00:25,000
not that I've hadn't even mentioned that yet, but I

1092
01:00:25,400 --> 01:00:27,519
knew from a very young age that I would not

1093
01:00:28,599 --> 01:00:31,639
be interested or capable of having and caring for children.

1094
01:00:32,119 --> 01:00:36,760
That was just something I knew about myself. So I

1095
01:00:36,760 --> 01:00:40,360
don't think I understood some of those parallels. And then

1096
01:00:40,480 --> 01:00:43,920
as I did learn more about Israel and his trajectory,

1097
01:00:44,360 --> 01:00:49,360
none of it ever got any easier really, because again,

1098
01:00:49,400 --> 01:00:52,159
although we didn't make some of the same decisions like

1099
01:00:52,280 --> 01:00:55,239
I've had, and I think, like anyone does some self

1100
01:00:55,719 --> 01:00:59,679
destructive streaks and whatever else. And I think I was

1101
01:01:00,440 --> 01:01:04,400
probably looking for some of the common commonality points more

1102
01:01:04,480 --> 01:01:08,880
so than I needed to. It was, I guess a

1103
01:01:08,880 --> 01:01:11,559
better way of saying is I don't understand why it

1104
01:01:11,679 --> 01:01:15,599
seeded as deep as it did when some of those

1105
01:01:15,639 --> 01:01:20,960
things were learned, But I had been in and out

1106
01:01:20,960 --> 01:01:25,000
of therapy at different points of my life. It became

1107
01:01:25,880 --> 01:01:27,320
very important to me, and in a way that I

1108
01:01:27,639 --> 01:01:30,480
bottled up what I'm I guess I'm driving to at

1109
01:01:30,519 --> 01:01:33,679
this is like a year and a half after I

1110
01:01:33,679 --> 01:01:38,920
would have learned this about Israel having killed himself in prison,

1111
01:01:39,599 --> 01:01:43,280
and it had gained maybe enough information in that and

1112
01:01:44,079 --> 01:01:47,840
I was struggling in my own life for my own reasons.

1113
01:01:48,039 --> 01:01:51,360
Right had moved from northern Utah to a big city.

1114
01:01:51,400 --> 01:01:53,639
I had never lived in a big city. It was,

1115
01:01:53,719 --> 01:01:56,719
you know, my first real, big, serious, grown up job,

1116
01:01:57,480 --> 01:02:02,280
and things were just, I guess oft enough that I

1117
01:02:02,320 --> 01:02:05,599
was really frustrated challenge by things, trying to figure out

1118
01:02:06,079 --> 01:02:08,639
how to understand it, how to like get like my

1119
01:02:08,719 --> 01:02:10,800
skill set up to where I needed to be, because

1120
01:02:10,800 --> 01:02:16,199
it didn't seem as difficult for the other people I'm observing,

1121
01:02:16,360 --> 01:02:20,360
and that's probably how it always looks. And I saw

1122
01:02:20,360 --> 01:02:23,480
an opportunity. I didn't think about it, and I walked

1123
01:02:23,519 --> 01:02:29,760
in front of like an nineteen seventies like Sadan, a

1124
01:02:29,800 --> 01:02:32,840
big car, Like in my mind, it's a miracle that

1125
01:02:32,880 --> 01:02:35,199
the car stopped. They honked me. There's a bunch of

1126
01:02:35,199 --> 01:02:37,840
guys in it that just started yelling and like I

1127
01:02:37,840 --> 01:02:41,599
had never been like more let down in a way,

1128
01:02:41,800 --> 01:02:44,360
like I kind of had whatever that split second thing was.

1129
01:02:44,880 --> 01:02:47,079
And so in a weird way, that was helpful. I

1130
01:02:47,119 --> 01:02:50,320
spent like the next two or three weeks just being

1131
01:02:50,320 --> 01:02:53,079
scared of myself in a way, calling different mental health

1132
01:02:53,079 --> 01:02:56,199
facilities and being told of what Like one guy literally

1133
01:02:56,239 --> 01:02:59,960
told me, he's like, yeah, like okay, I definitely regommend

1134
01:03:00,079 --> 01:03:02,199
find somebody to talk to. He's like, I was like,

1135
01:03:02,239 --> 01:03:04,320
but I regularly try to keep people from throwing their

1136
01:03:04,559 --> 01:03:08,039
their shit at me. And I was just like, I

1137
01:03:08,079 --> 01:03:10,280
was like, I think I appreciate where you're trying to

1138
01:03:10,320 --> 01:03:12,840
stay here, but this doesn't like that is where I'm

1139
01:03:12,880 --> 01:03:13,559
at in my head.

1140
01:03:13,599 --> 01:03:15,440
Speaker 3: This is as messy as it's gotten.

1141
01:03:15,960 --> 01:03:20,039
Speaker 2: And I think there was a I think there were

1142
01:03:20,039 --> 01:03:23,360
a lot of important lessons that that came out of

1143
01:03:23,440 --> 01:03:26,639
drawing those analogies. I think I could have gotten there

1144
01:03:27,000 --> 01:03:31,679
with a lot less cost, had I not you know, chosen,

1145
01:03:31,800 --> 01:03:34,239
or had this example kind of placed in front of

1146
01:03:34,239 --> 01:03:38,320
me at a pivotal time. But yeah, I think because

1147
01:03:38,320 --> 01:03:42,719
of having left my own faith or kind of walked

1148
01:03:42,719 --> 01:03:44,719
away from some of the support systems that I had

1149
01:03:44,719 --> 01:03:48,400
had because they they were not as perfect as I

1150
01:03:48,440 --> 01:03:54,400
wanted them to be right for whatever version, But then

1151
01:03:54,519 --> 01:03:56,960
I was going into a setting where where I didn't

1152
01:03:57,239 --> 01:04:00,480
having a bad support system and figuring out how to

1153
01:04:00,519 --> 01:04:00,920
do that.

1154
01:04:01,599 --> 01:04:02,360
Speaker 3: I apologize.

1155
01:04:02,360 --> 01:04:05,440
Speaker 2: I keep I keep finding not very clean ways of

1156
01:04:05,480 --> 01:04:12,400
describing things that. Yeah, I apologize. I feel like I

1157
01:04:12,440 --> 01:04:13,760
got a little bit scrambled there.

1158
01:04:13,800 --> 01:04:14,760
Speaker 3: But it's okay.

1159
01:04:15,559 --> 01:04:19,000
Speaker 1: I appreciate you reaching out, and I think that this

1160
01:04:19,119 --> 01:04:21,239
interview is going to be helpful in ways you will

1161
01:04:21,239 --> 01:04:25,840
never imagine. So I really appreciate it. And I appreciate

1162
01:04:25,920 --> 01:04:30,639
you being candid and vulnerable and honest, because I'm sure

1163
01:04:30,719 --> 01:04:33,880
it's not easy to have these conversations. So I thank you.

1164
01:04:35,119 --> 01:04:36,239
Speaker 3: Yeah, and I.

1165
01:04:37,920 --> 01:04:40,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, I like, like I said, I kind of vacillated

1166
01:04:40,519 --> 01:04:42,639
between like how how health I can be or not,

1167
01:04:42,880 --> 01:04:47,320
But I do appreciate the way that you're you know,

1168
01:04:47,400 --> 01:04:49,280
exploring it. At the end of the day, it's a

1169
01:04:49,920 --> 01:04:54,480
it's like an information seeking exercise, right, We're not passing

1170
01:04:54,519 --> 01:04:58,280
judgment one way or the other. And so, yeah, I

1171
01:04:58,639 --> 01:05:02,039
appreciate that there might be some value to clean there,

1172
01:05:02,079 --> 01:05:04,960
and obviously I had the confidence that if there is,

1173
01:05:05,719 --> 01:05:08,039
you know, you would be at least on the very

1174
01:05:08,079 --> 01:05:10,280
short list of people that that would be able.

1175
01:05:10,039 --> 01:05:10,800
Speaker 3: To do that.

1176
01:05:12,719 --> 01:05:15,519
Speaker 2: One one thing that all that I'll say in closing

1177
01:05:15,679 --> 01:05:20,280
is I I do want to make an effort to

1178
01:05:20,320 --> 01:05:26,400
obtain some more identifiable information dates, times and things. So

1179
01:05:26,519 --> 01:05:29,119
like I'm I'm I'm happy to pursue that. And so

1180
01:05:29,159 --> 01:05:32,000
I was going to say, if there's you know, I

1181
01:05:32,000 --> 01:05:34,039
think I have a mental idea of what that list is.

1182
01:05:34,039 --> 01:05:35,400
But I was going to say, even if you have

1183
01:05:36,039 --> 01:05:38,360
a few things that's like, hey, this would essentially be

1184
01:05:38,360 --> 01:05:42,360
the wish list, right, Yeah, So even just getting a

1185
01:05:42,400 --> 01:05:45,280
description of the glasses from from my brother and some

1186
01:05:45,320 --> 01:05:48,880
of that stuff, I'm, you know, this is I only

1187
01:05:48,960 --> 01:05:50,639
want to do as much of this as as helpful,

1188
01:05:51,400 --> 01:05:52,960
and I think it would be a better judge of

1189
01:05:53,000 --> 01:05:55,639
that than I am that.

1190
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Speaker 1: Yeah, anything he said about that trip, like where he

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01:06:00,679 --> 01:06:04,159
was going after why he was there, incredibly helpful because

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that trip is one it's like high on our priority list.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so I would love to be I'd love to

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be a piece of that.

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Speaker 2: And yeah, thank you for some of the catharsists that

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01:06:13,800 --> 01:06:18,119
this has and will allow me to continue to digest.

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01:06:19,239 --> 01:06:22,000
I'd like to think that wasn't my only reason or purpose,

1198
01:06:22,119 --> 01:06:25,679
but certainly that'll be a benefit that I that I

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01:06:25,760 --> 01:06:30,119
get from it. And so we'll be happy to follow

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01:06:30,159 --> 01:06:33,599
up your emails and whatnot and help provide what I can.

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Speaker 4: Yesterday anyway made it was how you time your days? Intonight?

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01:07:01,679 --> 01:07:08,239
Didn't you know? You can't bang him without ever? Even

1203
01:07:12,679 --> 01:07:25,760
banstop things? Aren't plants show you that you're breaking up?

1204
01:07:30,400 --> 01:07:41,599
Please on your dreams too fasting. You can't bang him

1205
01:07:41,679 --> 01:07:44,239
with ever even try.

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01:07:48,119 --> 01:07:51,679
Speaker 1: This episode was written, edited, and produced by Josh Hallmark,

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01:07:52,280 --> 01:07:55,159
and it was made possible by the following Patreon producers.

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01:07:55,559 --> 01:07:58,199
Amy Basel Kendall see how the Horton wheedon, Sherry d

1209
01:07:58,440 --> 01:08:02,639
Kristen Hoffman, Dale Axton, Stephanie Taylor, Lydia Rodarte, Quayle Drew Vipond,

1210
01:08:02,719 --> 01:08:06,480
Amelia Hancock, Christina Sisson, Nicole and Dennis, Henry, Julian Natale,

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01:08:06,559 --> 01:08:13,119
Lana Holiday, Rural, jur Tuesday Woodworth, Zach Agnotowitz, Warren, Kathleen Stuter, Annette, Elle, Casey, Jensen, Richardson,

1212
01:08:13,440 --> 01:08:18,399
sc Benjamin Choppafong, Trista, Nicole, Ashfish, Becky C Pink, Jen

1213
01:08:18,520 --> 01:08:22,760
j Cory d, Robin, Carroll, Jordan, M, Kate Lusier, John Comery,

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01:08:22,800 --> 01:08:26,840
Kathy Nation, Carrie Jordan, t Bethany, Lauren Fieri, Emily Payne,

1215
01:08:26,880 --> 01:08:31,119
Tory Meyers, Sabrina Abbott, Meghan Inman, Meghan Dagel, Ashley Cooplan,

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01:08:31,359 --> 01:08:35,159
Michael Randall, d Wayne c, Jen, Justin Runyon and Trixie.

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01:08:35,359 --> 01:08:38,680
Thank you to True Crime Bullshit's newest Patreon supporters, Gail C,

1218
01:08:38,920 --> 01:08:42,399
Chelsea K Claire, Johnny, Suzy j kate E, Nancy, b,

1219
01:08:42,680 --> 01:08:45,840
Lee C and Lee El. To support the investigation, go

1220
01:08:45,880 --> 01:08:50,479
to Patreon dot com, slash Studio both and This episode's

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01:08:50,520 --> 01:08:58,399
featured music was by Kate Dalton

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Speaker 3: Mois