WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.800 --> 00:00:04.559 Hudson River Radio dot com. It beats listening to nothing. 2 00:00:05.440 --> 00:00:10.480 My goodness, being Frank, where the only way to be 3 00:00:11.400 --> 00:00:16.440 is Frank. Hello everyone, and welcome to being Frank. We're 4 00:00:16.480 --> 00:00:19.559 the only way to be is Frank. I'm your host, 5 00:00:19.559 --> 00:00:21.760 Frank WELBORNA. What I'd like to thank you for joining 6 00:00:21.800 --> 00:00:25.800 us on what we like to call the Intelligent Conversation podcast, 7 00:00:26.199 --> 00:00:29.559 where no conversations out of bounds and all points of 8 00:00:29.640 --> 00:00:32.479 view are welcome. You know, we record live to tape 9 00:00:32.520 --> 00:00:34.439 and I give you the date so you have some 10 00:00:34.520 --> 00:00:39.640 context and relevant It's May Day. May first. Me, the 11 00:00:39.679 --> 00:00:42.240 appreciation of jazz has always been a lot like my 12 00:00:42.320 --> 00:00:45.960 feelings towards hockey. It's not for everyone, but those who 13 00:00:46.000 --> 00:00:49.479 do enjoy them are almost fanatical in their support, and 14 00:00:49.560 --> 00:00:52.759 because it's not for everyone, only seems to make their 15 00:00:52.840 --> 00:00:56.439 love even more passionate. It's kind of a paradox. However, 16 00:00:56.640 --> 00:00:59.679 what cannot be disputed is the importance of jazz and 17 00:00:59.759 --> 00:01:04.599 mut style and influence on American society and culture. It's 18 00:01:04.599 --> 00:01:07.159 not hyperable to say that we would not be what 19 00:01:07.239 --> 00:01:11.040 we are today without it. So as we complete Jazz 20 00:01:11.079 --> 00:01:14.239 Appreciation Month, let's take some time to reflect on that 21 00:01:14.439 --> 00:01:18.079 history and significance. Today, of course, we have an expert 22 00:01:18.120 --> 00:01:21.159 on just that joining us for this edition of the 23 00:01:21.159 --> 00:01:26.120 Intelligent Conversation Podcast. Please welcome back to being Frank freshof 24 00:01:26.159 --> 00:01:29.640 is highly successful library series The History of Jazz in 25 00:01:29.680 --> 00:01:34.680 America is the jazz historian, musician and teacher mister Eric DeVito. 26 00:01:34.879 --> 00:01:35.760 Welcome back, Eric. 27 00:01:36.400 --> 00:01:38.560 How's it going. Frank happy to be on the show 28 00:01:38.560 --> 00:01:39.599 as always, Thanks for having me. 29 00:01:39.640 --> 00:01:42.079 It's great, and I want to say how much I 30 00:01:42.159 --> 00:01:44.959 enjoyed your series of both the Nayak and Puremont Public 31 00:01:45.040 --> 00:01:50.280 Libraries were absolutely wonderful where you link the history of 32 00:01:50.359 --> 00:01:53.719 jazz to the music. You brought in wonderful top shelf musicians. 33 00:01:54.000 --> 00:01:56.239 And we're going to go through some of those examples 34 00:01:56.239 --> 00:02:00.799 in our program tonight. Here a few examples of just 35 00:02:00.959 --> 00:02:05.640 how jazz influenced American society. So we're looking forward to that. 36 00:02:06.079 --> 00:02:10.360 So let's let's go right into it. Okay, Jazz, like 37 00:02:10.639 --> 00:02:15.439 America was created from a melting pot of cultures and people, 38 00:02:15.560 --> 00:02:18.719 so so talk about its origins, where did it come from, 39 00:02:18.759 --> 00:02:23.039 and how did it come to represent American and American style? 40 00:02:24.159 --> 00:02:24.400 Yeah? 41 00:02:24.400 --> 00:02:27.960 Absolutely, so, you know, to me, jazz is such a 42 00:02:28.000 --> 00:02:31.680 personification of what it means to be American. 43 00:02:31.759 --> 00:02:34.000 You know, it's you know, you can't. 44 00:02:34.039 --> 00:02:36.680 I always I always explain this to my students this way, 45 00:02:36.719 --> 00:02:38.719 and it's, you know, it's it's this is so fresh 46 00:02:38.719 --> 00:02:40.960 in my head because it's we're just coming off, as 47 00:02:41.000 --> 00:02:43.759 you said, you know, Jazz Appreciation Month in April, and 48 00:02:44.120 --> 00:02:47.039 it was just you know, International Jazz Day April thirtieth. 49 00:02:47.439 --> 00:02:50.560 So you know, I've literally been going through this lesson 50 00:02:50.599 --> 00:02:51.800 plan with all my classes. 51 00:02:51.840 --> 00:02:53.199 So it's always kind of. 52 00:02:53.199 --> 00:02:56.680 What I lead off with is how much jazz really 53 00:02:56.719 --> 00:03:01.000 does you know, parallel or symbolize being American? And the 54 00:03:01.039 --> 00:03:03.080 first thing I always do is I always ask my students. 55 00:03:03.319 --> 00:03:05.960 I always say how many people were born here in America? 56 00:03:06.400 --> 00:03:08.560 And depending on you know, over the over the career, 57 00:03:08.719 --> 00:03:10.680 the years of my career, I've taught in different areas, 58 00:03:10.680 --> 00:03:14.199 sometimes in New York City, sometimes in Westchester. Now I'm 59 00:03:14.199 --> 00:03:17.120 in Yonkers, but you know, and the amount of hands 60 00:03:17.120 --> 00:03:20.159 always changed, but usually I get a you know, majority 61 00:03:20.199 --> 00:03:22.719 of hands that I you know, go up, who was 62 00:03:22.759 --> 00:03:25.759 who was born here in America? And then I say, okay, uh, 63 00:03:25.919 --> 00:03:28.680 now put your hand down if your or keep your 64 00:03:28.719 --> 00:03:31.400 hand up if your parents were born here, and then 65 00:03:31.439 --> 00:03:33.599 a few hands go down and grandparents, and I go 66 00:03:33.680 --> 00:03:36.039 as far back as I can, and at some point 67 00:03:36.080 --> 00:03:38.520 all the hands go down, because you know, we I 68 00:03:38.599 --> 00:03:41.680 talk about, to be American means that your roots come 69 00:03:41.719 --> 00:03:44.360 from somewhere else, because we're a very young country with 70 00:03:44.439 --> 00:03:46.800 a very short history compared to say, you know, Europe 71 00:03:47.159 --> 00:03:50.560 or other in other parts of the world. And then 72 00:03:50.639 --> 00:03:52.199 I asked them, you know, how many you know, we 73 00:03:52.199 --> 00:03:54.560 talk about where their family comes from and and how 74 00:03:54.560 --> 00:03:58.400 they identify with their culture. So being an American, you know, 75 00:03:58.520 --> 00:04:00.719 has to mean your culture comes from from somewhere else. 76 00:04:00.759 --> 00:04:03.680 And jazz is the same way. And I kind of 77 00:04:03.719 --> 00:04:06.360 paralleled by saying, you know, jazz, like many of you, 78 00:04:06.919 --> 00:04:09.800 was born here, but its roots come from somewhere else. 79 00:04:09.840 --> 00:04:12.919 That's where it gets its identity from. So we kind 80 00:04:12.919 --> 00:04:16.000 of start there, and that's, you know, a very American thing. 81 00:04:16.000 --> 00:04:18.079 At a lot of times, when you go to other countries, 82 00:04:18.279 --> 00:04:20.759 you ask somebody where they're from, and and you know, 83 00:04:20.839 --> 00:04:23.079 of course I'm from Germany, where you're in Germany or 84 00:04:23.120 --> 00:04:25.439 I'm from and they identify with that. But I feel 85 00:04:25.439 --> 00:04:28.439 like America very much, we very much identify with all 86 00:04:28.439 --> 00:04:30.959 the various different places our ancestors come from, and I 87 00:04:31.000 --> 00:04:35.040 think that's really important key factor to jazz as well. 88 00:04:35.800 --> 00:04:39.319 So I think go ahead, I'm sorry, no, no, go ahead. Well, 89 00:04:39.560 --> 00:04:42.199 you know, I think what's important to mention there that 90 00:04:42.399 --> 00:04:48.360 it's the roots are are strongly in Africa. The very germ, 91 00:04:48.439 --> 00:04:51.879 if you will, of jazz comes from African sounds, and 92 00:04:51.920 --> 00:04:54.319 I know you have an example of that, but talk 93 00:04:54.399 --> 00:04:58.160 to that and then how jazz from that dealt with 94 00:04:58.240 --> 00:05:03.360 certain social issues as racism, segregation, that that came as 95 00:05:03.399 --> 00:05:08.279 so interesting, how music can develop thoughts in other areas 96 00:05:08.399 --> 00:05:10.480 as as we just mentioned. But but talk a little 97 00:05:10.480 --> 00:05:14.399 bit about the African the actual African roots of jazz. 98 00:05:14.839 --> 00:05:19.480 Absolutely, so, you know, jazz, jazz gets its roots from really, 99 00:05:19.680 --> 00:05:22.839 you know, a lots of different places, but primarily the 100 00:05:22.879 --> 00:05:25.639 two places it gets its roots from are Africa and Europe, 101 00:05:26.240 --> 00:05:30.480 and in particular, it's it's African influences have a lot 102 00:05:30.519 --> 00:05:34.279 to do with its rhythm, the use of syncopated rhythm 103 00:05:34.279 --> 00:05:38.920 and how rhythm is perceived, not just in jazz, but 104 00:05:38.959 --> 00:05:41.160 in all the styles of music that have come after 105 00:05:41.319 --> 00:05:44.079 jazz or and really the blues that have been influenced 106 00:05:44.079 --> 00:05:46.800 by the blues. You know, they have a very a 107 00:05:46.920 --> 00:05:51.519 very rhythmic characteristic that is contributed to the music of Africa. 108 00:05:52.240 --> 00:05:55.800 And also you know, of course European classical music has 109 00:05:55.839 --> 00:05:59.879 a huge influence on It's it's harmony, it's use of harmony, 110 00:06:00.040 --> 00:06:01.959 and it's a lot of its structures and its forms. 111 00:06:02.639 --> 00:06:05.079 So what I usually start out my lesson with actually 112 00:06:05.160 --> 00:06:09.199 is a big map with a circle around the United States, 113 00:06:09.240 --> 00:06:12.480 like you are here for jazz, and then I have 114 00:06:12.519 --> 00:06:15.759 two arrows pointing to each continent, one to Africa and 115 00:06:15.759 --> 00:06:18.079 one to Europe, and this is where you come from. 116 00:06:18.680 --> 00:06:22.920 So regarding that African influence, you know, we start way back, 117 00:06:22.959 --> 00:06:24.120 you know, I always the first thing I asked my 118 00:06:24.160 --> 00:06:29.040 students is how did an African influence or culture get 119 00:06:29.079 --> 00:06:31.480 here in the United States. And of course it's all 120 00:06:31.519 --> 00:06:35.199 ties into American history. We talk about the Transatlantic slave trade, 121 00:06:36.160 --> 00:06:38.439 you know, and so with the slave trade from about 122 00:06:38.439 --> 00:06:42.600 sixteen fifty to eighteen sixty. Of course, you know, this 123 00:06:42.680 --> 00:06:44.959 is one of the ugly parts of history that yielded 124 00:06:45.000 --> 00:06:47.639 maybe an unexpected I don't like to say, you know, 125 00:06:48.079 --> 00:06:52.199 a good result, but a positive outcome came out of. 126 00:06:52.360 --> 00:06:54.319 A tragic historical thing. 127 00:06:55.560 --> 00:06:59.680 So through the slave trade, millions of Africans, of course, 128 00:06:59.720 --> 00:07:03.120 were transported against their will, broke families, broken up, stripped 129 00:07:03.160 --> 00:07:06.040 away from their culture, terrible, terrible thing, and they were 130 00:07:06.079 --> 00:07:09.279 brought to all different parts of the world, across the 131 00:07:09.319 --> 00:07:14.439 Atlantic Ocean. Many to South America. Actually over five million 132 00:07:14.480 --> 00:07:17.040 went to South America, about four and a half million 133 00:07:17.079 --> 00:07:19.439 went to you know, what was the West Indies, the 134 00:07:19.519 --> 00:07:22.399 Caribbean area, and. 135 00:07:22.279 --> 00:07:23.360 A lot of people like you don't know this. 136 00:07:23.439 --> 00:07:28.800 About half a million were transported to North America, and 137 00:07:28.959 --> 00:07:31.000 of course that was primarily in the South, and a 138 00:07:31.000 --> 00:07:32.959 lot of that had to do with first the geography 139 00:07:33.079 --> 00:07:36.399 of of of transporting them it was closer, but also 140 00:07:36.759 --> 00:07:40.720 of course the you know, the the reliance on manual 141 00:07:40.800 --> 00:07:43.279 labor for agriculture that was a big part of the economy. 142 00:07:43.879 --> 00:07:45.959 So that's kind of where we start with, how did 143 00:07:45.959 --> 00:07:48.959 this African culture get here in the first place. And 144 00:07:49.000 --> 00:07:51.600 then of course we talk about with that culture or 145 00:07:51.600 --> 00:07:53.879 with that with those people came their culture. You know, 146 00:07:53.920 --> 00:07:56.279 you could take somebody away from their family, away from 147 00:07:56.319 --> 00:07:57.920 their homeland, but you can't take their culture. 148 00:07:57.680 --> 00:07:58.240 Away from them. 149 00:07:58.560 --> 00:08:01.279 So of course when those when those Africans came here, 150 00:08:01.360 --> 00:08:03.519 most of them from you know, West Africa, from places 151 00:08:03.560 --> 00:08:06.279 like the Congo and Sierra Leone and Senegal. 152 00:08:06.800 --> 00:08:08.879 They brought with them their culture. 153 00:08:09.040 --> 00:08:11.879 Now how they you know, how much they were allowed 154 00:08:11.879 --> 00:08:16.120 to express their culture varied and the different ways they found, 155 00:08:16.240 --> 00:08:18.920 you know, they were able to do that. Sometimes it 156 00:08:18.959 --> 00:08:22.800 was done in secret, sometimes it was done you know, depending. 157 00:08:22.399 --> 00:08:23.600 On what the situation was. 158 00:08:23.920 --> 00:08:27.519 But they brought with them their music, and we first 159 00:08:27.560 --> 00:08:30.519 started to see that with things like slave songs and 160 00:08:30.600 --> 00:08:34.720 work songs, and these were songs that were sung on 161 00:08:34.799 --> 00:08:35.720 many different levels. 162 00:08:35.799 --> 00:08:35.960 You know. 163 00:08:36.000 --> 00:08:38.759 One level was it was it was just a way 164 00:08:38.799 --> 00:08:42.840 to pass the time. Another level was, of course they 165 00:08:42.879 --> 00:08:46.639 were used as ways to communicate among slaves, and they 166 00:08:46.679 --> 00:08:49.759 could have been what's called signal songs or map songs 167 00:08:50.080 --> 00:08:52.919 where the words actually had double or hidden meanings about 168 00:08:54.039 --> 00:08:55.759 you know, things they wanted to communicate, or how to 169 00:08:55.879 --> 00:09:00.120 escape using the underground railroad and things like that. So 170 00:09:00.120 --> 00:09:04.000 so that's kind of where the mix from their African 171 00:09:04.159 --> 00:09:06.600 music and culture kind of became a. 172 00:09:06.519 --> 00:09:07.879 New thing that was mixed. 173 00:09:08.200 --> 00:09:10.679 One of the musical examples I share with you before 174 00:09:10.720 --> 00:09:13.679 we go even into that, is just talking about the 175 00:09:13.799 --> 00:09:16.320 rhythm and the use of poly rhythms, and you know, 176 00:09:16.399 --> 00:09:21.600 African music is so much more rhythmically sophisticated than European 177 00:09:21.799 --> 00:09:23.559 you know, quote unquote when I say European mean like 178 00:09:23.600 --> 00:09:26.799 Western European music. When we think of music from the 179 00:09:27.399 --> 00:09:32.840 you know, sixteen hundreds to the twentieth century that primarily 180 00:09:32.840 --> 00:09:38.279 had composers from Germany, Austria, you know, Italy, for it 181 00:09:38.360 --> 00:09:41.559 was so much more rhythmically complicated that we actually don't 182 00:09:41.639 --> 00:09:44.840 our own Western music system has trouble notating it. You know, 183 00:09:44.840 --> 00:09:48.799 we use things like triplets, which is a way to 184 00:09:49.039 --> 00:09:51.879 divide a beat into three equal parts. But that's irrational. 185 00:09:51.919 --> 00:09:54.279 You can't divide a number into three equal parts. So 186 00:09:54.320 --> 00:09:57.639 that's why we have trouble performing a lot of that 187 00:09:57.759 --> 00:10:00.600 music because you know, and not to get too but 188 00:10:01.080 --> 00:10:04.960 it's it's not as quote unquote natural because we tended 189 00:10:05.000 --> 00:10:08.759 to divide our beat into two equal parts. But when 190 00:10:09.039 --> 00:10:11.200 a lot of you know, African music, and when we 191 00:10:11.240 --> 00:10:13.639 deal with the blues and jazz, it's based off the triplet, 192 00:10:13.799 --> 00:10:16.679 and so that comes with an unequal division of the beat, 193 00:10:16.720 --> 00:10:19.279 which means there's more room when we do it for interpretation. 194 00:10:19.759 --> 00:10:22.000 And then when we talk about swinging rhythms. 195 00:10:21.600 --> 00:10:22.879 And stuff that all comes off of it. 196 00:10:23.279 --> 00:10:26.120 So just to kind of start as a point, I 197 00:10:26.159 --> 00:10:29.240 think it's really important to listen to African drumming, you know, 198 00:10:29.240 --> 00:10:32.840 the music of traditional music of West Africa, and also 199 00:10:32.919 --> 00:10:37.320 this music features lots of improvisation. You know, improvisation was 200 00:10:37.360 --> 00:10:41.519 something that it happened in class styles of classical. 201 00:10:41.120 --> 00:10:43.480 Music, like baroque music. There it was expected. 202 00:10:43.519 --> 00:10:45.799 If you were a baroque musician in the sixteen hundreds, 203 00:10:46.120 --> 00:10:49.440 you knew how and when to appropriately and stylistically improvise. 204 00:10:50.240 --> 00:10:55.320 But traditionally, you know, quote unquote classical musicians are a 205 00:10:55.360 --> 00:10:58.200 lot less comfortable improvising than people who are maybe jazz 206 00:10:58.279 --> 00:11:03.279 or popular musicians who have studied, you know, contemporary music, 207 00:11:03.279 --> 00:11:05.879 which gets its roots really from the blues and jazz. 208 00:11:05.679 --> 00:11:06.799 And music of Africa. 209 00:11:06.879 --> 00:11:10.720 So you hear right away the improvisation that's a part 210 00:11:10.720 --> 00:11:13.200 of the structure of the music, the call and response, 211 00:11:13.240 --> 00:11:16.879 the dialogue that's happening. That becomes such an important part 212 00:11:16.919 --> 00:11:20.879 of the blues and then of jazz and a more contemporary. 213 00:11:20.360 --> 00:11:21.200 Styles of music. 214 00:11:21.960 --> 00:11:24.120 So when you listen to this African drumming, it's almost 215 00:11:24.159 --> 00:11:26.080 like can put you in a trance because of all 216 00:11:26.120 --> 00:11:29.519 the rhythmic layering that's happening. That to our ears is 217 00:11:29.639 --> 00:11:32.720 really complicated. But you know, somebody who grew up maybe 218 00:11:32.720 --> 00:11:35.000 in Africa listening to this music, it was just natural. 219 00:11:35.039 --> 00:11:37.960 It was just part of the organic feel of the music. 220 00:11:38.320 --> 00:11:40.159 And I think that's a really good place to start 221 00:11:40.159 --> 00:11:42.240 to understand what we're dealing with rhythmically. 222 00:12:00.240 --> 00:12:55.720 H So, what what so? What are we hearing there? Eric? What? 223 00:12:55.720 --> 00:12:55.919 What? 224 00:12:55.919 --> 00:12:58.480 What did we? What did? Obviously it's drumming, but within 225 00:12:58.559 --> 00:13:02.039 that drumming explo exactly what we were hearing kind of 226 00:13:02.120 --> 00:13:02.960 musically if you can. 227 00:13:03.440 --> 00:13:05.840 Yeah, so you're you're hearing you know, lots and lots 228 00:13:05.840 --> 00:13:10.240 of rhythmic layering and you know, different polyrhythms and and 229 00:13:11.320 --> 00:13:14.120 creating almost like this, you know what we call syncopation, 230 00:13:14.240 --> 00:13:17.200 which is when you accent and parts of the beat 231 00:13:17.279 --> 00:13:20.039 that are kind of not generally on the beat, something 232 00:13:20.080 --> 00:13:22.639 that we're more familiar with in Western European music, but 233 00:13:23.120 --> 00:13:25.039 you know, the parts of the beat, or the offbeats, 234 00:13:25.080 --> 00:13:27.440 are in between the beats, and when you accent and 235 00:13:27.480 --> 00:13:30.120 emphasize those different parts of the beat, it creates this 236 00:13:30.240 --> 00:13:33.840 kind of tug of war against the beat and the accents, 237 00:13:34.039 --> 00:13:36.000 and it kind of almost you know, I describe it 238 00:13:36.039 --> 00:13:37.720 to my students as it almost pulls you. 239 00:13:37.639 --> 00:13:38.879 Into two different directions. 240 00:13:38.919 --> 00:13:40.600 I call it like a tug of war of rhythm, 241 00:13:41.039 --> 00:13:42.799 and a lot of that is what makes it. When 242 00:13:42.840 --> 00:13:45.080 I listen to that music, I can't help but move. 243 00:13:45.120 --> 00:13:47.720 It's like my body is being pulled. And of course, 244 00:13:48.240 --> 00:13:50.480 when you when you you know, as much a part 245 00:13:50.519 --> 00:13:53.720 of the music of African music is the movement. Dancing 246 00:13:53.759 --> 00:13:57.120 and movement was an integral part of performing this music. 247 00:13:57.440 --> 00:14:00.559 If you ever watch anybody you know African music be performed, 248 00:14:00.559 --> 00:14:03.600 there's almost always a dance element or a movement element, 249 00:14:03.919 --> 00:14:07.639 and that's because the rhythm. It's almost just the phenomenon 250 00:14:07.679 --> 00:14:10.639 of hearing those syncopations and those polyrhythms and that layered 251 00:14:10.720 --> 00:14:13.960 rhythm just makes your body want to move and dance. 252 00:14:14.000 --> 00:14:16.200 And I think that is kind of where, you know, 253 00:14:16.559 --> 00:14:18.720 as we go further down the line, and jazz is 254 00:14:18.720 --> 00:14:22.759 being a music that people dance to and that became 255 00:14:23.080 --> 00:14:25.360 a popular form of music, it really has to do 256 00:14:25.399 --> 00:14:29.639 with that syncopated rhythm and also that improvisational component to it. 257 00:14:29.960 --> 00:14:32.000 And if I might add, and it brings me into 258 00:14:32.080 --> 00:14:36.919 my next question, about jazz culture. It can be and 259 00:14:37.080 --> 00:14:41.440 was often seen as sexual music if you will, there's 260 00:14:41.480 --> 00:14:43.840 a sexual component to listen to it and to see 261 00:14:43.840 --> 00:14:48.000 the dance movements can be interpreted by some people as sexy. 262 00:14:48.279 --> 00:14:53.639 So it kind of was kind of called immoral music, 263 00:14:53.759 --> 00:14:56.279 if you will for a while. You know, the music 264 00:14:56.399 --> 00:14:59.120 of blacks, if you will, was at a time, as 265 00:14:59.159 --> 00:15:02.720 we know, it was like different. So it's over there, okay, 266 00:15:03.120 --> 00:15:07.720 all right. Social implications, yes, the social implications of it 267 00:15:07.759 --> 00:15:11.480 were strong. How did they overcome that to become serious 268 00:15:11.559 --> 00:15:15.720 musicians and for people to go beyond that kind of 269 00:15:15.759 --> 00:15:16.840 trite way of looking at it? 270 00:15:17.399 --> 00:15:19.240 Well, so I think, you know, it's interesting when you 271 00:15:19.559 --> 00:15:21.679 when you say that, because there's a lot of assumptions 272 00:15:21.679 --> 00:15:24.360 that go into it. I think over here in our 273 00:15:24.559 --> 00:15:30.279 very you know, Anglo white, Caucasian based on European, we 274 00:15:30.320 --> 00:15:32.480 look at that and think of that because, you know, 275 00:15:32.679 --> 00:15:36.039 especially when our society, you know, when America first started 276 00:15:36.039 --> 00:15:38.799 with the Puritans and the Quakers and all that, we 277 00:15:38.799 --> 00:15:40.759 were very rigid people. You know, we had a very 278 00:15:40.759 --> 00:15:44.799 religious kind of beginning, and so music that was more 279 00:15:45.080 --> 00:15:47.799 maybe we'll use the quote unquote like primitive to us 280 00:15:47.960 --> 00:15:50.480 or even exotic, because that's what it was. Right before 281 00:15:50.519 --> 00:15:52.799 the world was really connected. You couldn't turn on the 282 00:15:52.879 --> 00:15:55.080 radio and hear or to go on the internet and 283 00:15:55.120 --> 00:15:57.720 hear music from other parts of the world. So these 284 00:15:57.720 --> 00:16:01.600 things were very exotic and exhilarating and exciting, and and 285 00:16:02.039 --> 00:16:04.559 a place like Africa would have definitely, I think been 286 00:16:04.679 --> 00:16:07.559 parts of it would have definitely been considered more primitive 287 00:16:07.639 --> 00:16:11.639 or less civilized to early you know, settlers and Europeans 288 00:16:11.679 --> 00:16:14.039 back then. So when they saw them moving and of 289 00:16:14.039 --> 00:16:16.519 course the way they were dressed and and and you know, 290 00:16:16.559 --> 00:16:19.799 comparing it to our own culture in a very ethnocentric way, 291 00:16:20.080 --> 00:16:22.200 we would have said that that was less civilized and 292 00:16:22.279 --> 00:16:26.320 more primitive, and the use of their bodies and dancing 293 00:16:26.639 --> 00:16:29.080 and something that was more primitive. Of course, I could 294 00:16:29.080 --> 00:16:32.480 definitely see that being characterized as more sexual. And it's 295 00:16:32.519 --> 00:16:34.600 not too unlike you know, when we look at people 296 00:16:34.679 --> 00:16:37.879 tango dance or something that's very sensual and there's a 297 00:16:38.279 --> 00:16:41.080 kind of a rawness to it. And I think that's what, 298 00:16:41.200 --> 00:16:44.200 you know, is part of what makes the music so 299 00:16:45.039 --> 00:16:48.240 visceral and organic and exciting. But you're right there, there 300 00:16:48.279 --> 00:16:52.480 is definitely a cognitive dissonance or like a dichotomy of 301 00:16:52.480 --> 00:16:58.159 of a of a very Anglo you know, religious culture 302 00:16:59.080 --> 00:17:01.360 that was, you know how a lot of America we 303 00:17:01.440 --> 00:17:02.399 started out in a way. 304 00:17:02.440 --> 00:17:05.559 So I definitely see that, can see. 305 00:17:05.359 --> 00:17:08.640 The parallel there, you know, you were so we're talking 306 00:17:08.640 --> 00:17:11.079 about it being a moral so when that first happened, 307 00:17:11.079 --> 00:17:13.519 you know, we we'll get to it in a bit, 308 00:17:13.559 --> 00:17:16.160 but jazz, when jazz kind of evolved as its own 309 00:17:16.279 --> 00:17:19.799 musical form, This happened in New Orleans, right in Louisiana, 310 00:17:19.839 --> 00:17:22.799 and there's a rich history there of why that happened. 311 00:17:22.799 --> 00:17:27.519 You know, that wasn't a coincidence or an accident. Louisiana 312 00:17:27.559 --> 00:17:30.279 was it was owned by France. 313 00:17:30.799 --> 00:17:31.799 It was owned by Spain. 314 00:17:31.880 --> 00:17:34.160 Actually then it was owned by France. There was some 315 00:17:34.200 --> 00:17:37.279 wars and treaties, then it went back and eventually we 316 00:17:37.440 --> 00:17:41.240 bought it. We purchased it Asia Louisiana purchase, and that 317 00:17:41.279 --> 00:17:43.200 completely changed the landscape of the US. 318 00:17:43.400 --> 00:17:44.160 But we also. 319 00:17:43.960 --> 00:17:48.000 Acquired a huge, you know, piece of land that was 320 00:17:48.000 --> 00:17:51.359 full of European culture already, and it was also full 321 00:17:51.400 --> 00:17:55.079 of African culture. And by the way, the Africans there 322 00:17:55.119 --> 00:17:58.839 weren't considered slaves or weren't considered you know, they enjoyed 323 00:17:58.880 --> 00:18:02.160 a lot more freedom than Africans did. African people did, 324 00:18:02.559 --> 00:18:04.319 so it was kind of there was a lot of 325 00:18:04.359 --> 00:18:07.559 shock there to the way Africans were treated once they 326 00:18:07.599 --> 00:18:11.119 were part of the US, and there was a big 327 00:18:11.160 --> 00:18:13.279 culture there of you know what we think of as 328 00:18:13.319 --> 00:18:16.039 creole culture, or a mix of French or European and 329 00:18:16.160 --> 00:18:19.720 African culture from you know, different cultures that were there 330 00:18:19.799 --> 00:18:22.640 and that were over there already, and and the Africans 331 00:18:22.640 --> 00:18:24.759 that were there, and the mixing of those cultures, and 332 00:18:24.839 --> 00:18:27.240 a lot of those creoles were the first jazz musicians. 333 00:18:27.279 --> 00:18:28.640 But this music was often in. 334 00:18:28.640 --> 00:18:32.079 The beginning, it was kind of like relegated to or 335 00:18:32.160 --> 00:18:36.200 delegated to what you might call the red light districts 336 00:18:36.680 --> 00:18:40.640 where you know, things were not it was a little 337 00:18:40.680 --> 00:18:43.400 bit more underground. It was kind of like not in 338 00:18:43.440 --> 00:18:45.599 the you know, you wanted to stay far away, just. 339 00:18:45.559 --> 00:18:47.400 Like Times Square used to be. Right in the nineties, 340 00:18:47.480 --> 00:18:49.000 it was the red light district. 341 00:18:49.039 --> 00:18:51.079 I remember the seventies. It was good in the nineties 342 00:18:51.079 --> 00:18:53.440 compared I remember the seventies right. 343 00:18:53.319 --> 00:18:56.720 Right, So, yeah, I guess I'm dating myself a little bit. 344 00:18:58.119 --> 00:19:02.240 But so that's where the music was kind of allowed 345 00:19:02.400 --> 00:19:04.680 to because you know, the big cities and the red 346 00:19:04.720 --> 00:19:07.519 light districts, that's where the bars and the speakeasies and 347 00:19:07.559 --> 00:19:10.240 the clubs and all that were, and so that's where 348 00:19:10.279 --> 00:19:13.279 you heard that music really had a chance to kind 349 00:19:13.319 --> 00:19:15.960 of start and do its thing. And then you know, 350 00:19:16.079 --> 00:19:19.000 it did that for a while until it became a 351 00:19:19.000 --> 00:19:22.400 little bit more mainstream. But going back before we even 352 00:19:22.440 --> 00:19:26.160 get to Louisiana, it's important to kind of know that 353 00:19:26.160 --> 00:19:28.480 that so that African music it that was brought here, 354 00:19:28.880 --> 00:19:31.559 that started to be you know, that was used as 355 00:19:31.559 --> 00:19:35.200 a main ingredient in a lot of the songs that 356 00:19:35.319 --> 00:19:38.440 slaves were now singing while they were here, and so 357 00:19:38.839 --> 00:19:41.759 you get this this concept of a slave song or 358 00:19:41.799 --> 00:19:44.160 a work song, and that in itself as such as 359 00:19:44.240 --> 00:19:49.039 interesting history and culture because of all the functions. You know, 360 00:19:49.319 --> 00:19:52.000 first of all, the fact that people can be stripped 361 00:19:52.000 --> 00:19:56.079 from their culture, stripped from their families, and then find 362 00:19:56.119 --> 00:19:59.960 a way through music to give themselves hope to overcome, 363 00:20:00.519 --> 00:20:02.200 to me, is like one of the most powerful things 364 00:20:02.200 --> 00:20:04.880 about music. The fact that these a lot of these 365 00:20:05.240 --> 00:20:08.759 you know, these people had in some ways nothing to 366 00:20:08.839 --> 00:20:12.960 live for, and yet they overcome all odds, and they 367 00:20:12.960 --> 00:20:15.440 create music, they make art, and so I think that's 368 00:20:15.480 --> 00:20:19.039 a real testament to just them and their music and 369 00:20:19.079 --> 00:20:21.920 their culture. And so you see these songs emerge, whether 370 00:20:21.960 --> 00:20:25.799 they're songs to give people hope, which eventually becomes the spiritual, right, 371 00:20:25.839 --> 00:20:28.599 we talk about the spiritual, which is a huge ingredient 372 00:20:28.640 --> 00:20:31.519 in the blues, and eventually jazz and and all American 373 00:20:31.559 --> 00:20:35.759 folk music, and then eventually gospel music comes from spirituals. 374 00:20:35.759 --> 00:20:37.160 But that all really comes. 375 00:20:38.640 --> 00:20:41.720 From the slaves song and the work song, which were 376 00:20:41.759 --> 00:20:43.240 sung by slaves. 377 00:20:43.160 --> 00:20:45.599 And wet we haven't exact, we have an exact. 378 00:20:45.519 --> 00:20:48.160 So I have an example here, and a lot of 379 00:20:48.200 --> 00:20:50.240 these songs, of course were sung a cappella because they 380 00:20:50.319 --> 00:20:52.599 might might be songs people sung while they were working 381 00:20:52.640 --> 00:20:55.359 out in fields or maybe when they got to congregate 382 00:20:55.920 --> 00:20:58.519 the little bit of time they got to socialize. But 383 00:20:58.559 --> 00:21:01.160 this is called You're Gonna Rea just what you sew, 384 00:21:02.000 --> 00:21:04.640 and it's just kind of characterizes from an album songs 385 00:21:04.640 --> 00:21:07.200 of the American Negro Slaves. And I love the title 386 00:21:07.240 --> 00:21:09.119 because there's a real kind of hidden meaning. 387 00:21:09.200 --> 00:21:09.359 You know. 388 00:21:09.440 --> 00:21:11.559 Of course, a lot of you know, this could have 389 00:21:11.559 --> 00:21:13.960 been taking place on a plantation and so you have 390 00:21:14.039 --> 00:21:15.319 the agricultural reference. 391 00:21:15.319 --> 00:21:16.880 You're gonna reap just what you sew. 392 00:21:17.240 --> 00:21:20.200 But I think there's also some very interesting foreshadowing going 393 00:21:20.240 --> 00:21:23.759 on there about, you know, the slavery in general and 394 00:21:23.799 --> 00:21:27.279 what's to come and and and all that. So this 395 00:21:27.359 --> 00:21:31.160 is a great a cappella example of just the slaves, 396 00:21:31.240 --> 00:21:33.160 you know, what we'd call an American negro slaves. 397 00:21:33.400 --> 00:21:39.200 Let's listen, turning your broda keep nu, find. 398 00:21:40.559 --> 00:21:43.279 Fighting on the out and. 399 00:21:43.240 --> 00:21:52.599 Fight horror in the valley. You will read so you 400 00:21:52.799 --> 00:22:01.720 believe just what you show. You be ree what you. 401 00:22:01.880 --> 00:22:05.119