WEBVTT 1 00:00:01.360 --> 00:00:04.200 I want to welcome everyone back to the Pecanana Show 2 00:00:04.599 --> 00:00:09.400 for the first time. Long overdue. Darryl Cooper, how are 3 00:00:09.400 --> 00:00:09.880 you doing, Drell? 4 00:00:10.599 --> 00:00:12.480 Great man, It's great to be on here with you. 5 00:00:12.679 --> 00:00:14.560 Like I told you before the show, I'm a big fan, 6 00:00:14.679 --> 00:00:15.800 so yeah, a long time coming. 7 00:00:16.879 --> 00:00:20.079 Same here, same here. Tell everybody a little bit about yourself. 8 00:00:21.760 --> 00:00:25.760 So I'm pretty much a regular person. I grew up 9 00:00:25.800 --> 00:00:31.160 all over California, mostly in inner cities, from the Central 10 00:00:31.199 --> 00:00:33.840 Valley down to SoCal spent a little bit of time 11 00:00:33.920 --> 00:00:36.920 my high school and college years up in Montana, which 12 00:00:36.960 --> 00:00:40.119 was nice to get a different glimpse of that. I 13 00:00:40.119 --> 00:00:43.520 come from a family of veterans, and so I joined 14 00:00:43.520 --> 00:00:46.920 the Navy after I was done with college and did 15 00:00:46.960 --> 00:00:51.079 ten years doing Aaron ballistic missile work defense work, and 16 00:00:51.119 --> 00:00:54.079 then got out and worked as a DoD civilian for 17 00:00:54.119 --> 00:00:58.000 ten more years doing the same thing, basically Aaron ballistic 18 00:00:58.039 --> 00:01:03.159 missile defense engineering stuff. In the meantime, around twenty fifteen, 19 00:01:03.200 --> 00:01:08.319 I started doing a podcast just sort of on a lark. Really, 20 00:01:09.480 --> 00:01:12.920 you know, I was a fan of Dan Carlin's hardcore 21 00:01:13.040 --> 00:01:15.599 history back then, and obviously he takes six or eight 22 00:01:15.599 --> 00:01:18.120 months between episodes, and I would always bitch about that 23 00:01:19.000 --> 00:01:20.799 and pretty much all I do. You know, I moved 24 00:01:20.799 --> 00:01:22.359 around a lot when I was a kid, and then 25 00:01:22.400 --> 00:01:24.000 in the Navy, I moved around a lot, and so 26 00:01:24.079 --> 00:01:26.359 my continuity was always books, and so ever since i've 27 00:01:26.359 --> 00:01:28.480 been a little kid, I just you know, I've had 28 00:01:28.519 --> 00:01:31.400 my nose in a book pretty much during all of 29 00:01:31.439 --> 00:01:36.640 my spare time every day. And you know, my girlfriend 30 00:01:36.680 --> 00:01:39.280 at the time and my friends were tired of hearing 31 00:01:39.280 --> 00:01:41.400 about the books that I recently read, and so they 32 00:01:41.439 --> 00:01:43.280 told me to go start a podcast, and so I did. 33 00:01:45.079 --> 00:01:46.760 I did that for a few years. You know, these 34 00:01:46.760 --> 00:01:50.040 are I do like long form five six seven hour 35 00:01:50.200 --> 00:01:56.159 long episodes, sometimes really deep dives on historical topics, and 36 00:01:56.879 --> 00:01:59.799 they're not for everybody, and I didn't really expect anybody 37 00:01:59.840 --> 00:02:01.920 to listen to it, but it's really kind of taken 38 00:02:01.959 --> 00:02:05.879 off and that's been really cool. And so last year, 39 00:02:06.680 --> 00:02:08.840 you know, I kind of was facing a point where, 40 00:02:10.120 --> 00:02:12.719 you know, I'm starting a family now, and I just 41 00:02:12.960 --> 00:02:15.000 had to realize that. You know, when I was at 42 00:02:15.000 --> 00:02:18.639 my DoD job, I was literally waking up two hours 43 00:02:18.680 --> 00:02:20.439 early before I had to get ready for work to 44 00:02:20.520 --> 00:02:22.599 read and write. I was reading and writing during my 45 00:02:22.680 --> 00:02:24.800 lunch hour. I was spending my evenings doing that just 46 00:02:24.840 --> 00:02:28.639 to get this podcast done. And that wasn't gonna fly 47 00:02:28.719 --> 00:02:31.120 anymore once, you know, I got a little screaming infant 48 00:02:31.120 --> 00:02:33.479 to deal with, plus work, and so I had to 49 00:02:33.520 --> 00:02:38.039 make a choice and decided to cut the strands of 50 00:02:38.039 --> 00:02:40.759 the safety net with a government job, and now I'm 51 00:02:40.759 --> 00:02:43.560 able to do the podcasting thing full time. I do 52 00:02:43.599 --> 00:02:47.879 a second podcast with my friend Jocko Willink, who's he's 53 00:02:47.919 --> 00:02:51.159 a retired nav CL commander. People may have heard of him. 54 00:02:51.360 --> 00:02:54.560 He's a he's an awesome dude. And we have one 55 00:02:54.560 --> 00:02:57.879 called The Unraveling as well. And so, yeah, that's that's 56 00:02:57.919 --> 00:03:01.599 what I'm doing. And what's the name of podcast, oh 57 00:03:01.680 --> 00:03:03.639 martyr made. Yeah, I'm terrible at advertising. 58 00:03:05.759 --> 00:03:10.120 Well, the thing I really enjoy is you'll talk about 59 00:03:10.120 --> 00:03:16.639 things like the Bolshevik Revolution, and you'll you'll talk about 60 00:03:16.759 --> 00:03:19.800 things that are historic, but also you're not scared to 61 00:03:19.840 --> 00:03:23.199 talk about things that people might, I don't know, you know, 62 00:03:24.400 --> 00:03:28.120 good respectable people might roll their eyes at you know. 63 00:03:28.439 --> 00:03:31.879 So there was this there was this episode you did 64 00:03:31.919 --> 00:03:37.080 and it was about this vast conspiracy theory that you 65 00:03:37.120 --> 00:03:40.039 know has been put to bed and it was this 66 00:03:40.080 --> 00:03:45.400 thing called Pizzagate, and it was such a stupid conspiracy 67 00:03:45.439 --> 00:03:47.639 theory that like Ben Swan lost his job and had 68 00:03:47.680 --> 00:03:50.520 to go into hiding for a year after he reported 69 00:03:50.599 --> 00:03:53.960 on it on an Atlanta news station. I used to 70 00:03:54.000 --> 00:03:57.719 live in Atlanta, and uh, yeah, you know, and yeah, 71 00:03:57.759 --> 00:04:00.879 so why why did you look into this this silly 72 00:04:00.919 --> 00:04:02.719 conspiracy theory? 73 00:04:03.360 --> 00:04:06.280 So I was doing a short little series for my 74 00:04:06.400 --> 00:04:11.280 sub stack followers on Jeffrey Epstein and focusing on the 75 00:04:12.840 --> 00:04:16.079 you know, the what looked like connections to us and 76 00:04:16.199 --> 00:04:19.000 Israeli intelligence and kind of deep diving on that in 77 00:04:19.000 --> 00:04:21.079 a way that anybody, you know, I know, you've had 78 00:04:22.120 --> 00:04:24.240 Ryan on a few times and stuff. Anybody who's listening 79 00:04:24.240 --> 00:04:25.720 to him isn't going to get anything new out of 80 00:04:25.759 --> 00:04:29.480 the first episode and a half or so, probably. 81 00:04:29.439 --> 00:04:32.839 I mean, Ryan's basically done all the work for Yeah, 82 00:04:32.839 --> 00:04:34.800 He's done the work for all of us. And there's 83 00:04:34.839 --> 00:04:37.480 even somebody else out there who's like making a career 84 00:04:37.519 --> 00:04:39.680 off of Ryan's work and not really. 85 00:04:39.519 --> 00:04:45.000 Yeah, and it's kind of unfortunate because you know, it's like, well, 86 00:04:45.040 --> 00:04:46.959 this is this is always tough for someone like me 87 00:04:47.040 --> 00:04:52.000 who has you know, sort of mainstream normy connections with 88 00:04:52.120 --> 00:04:55.639 people where you know, it's hard to just say that, like, 89 00:04:55.720 --> 00:04:58.240 you know, I got this from this source Ryan Dawson 90 00:04:58.279 --> 00:05:02.000 over here, X Y, and Z just me. Then it 91 00:05:02.040 --> 00:05:03.839 would just be kind of like whatever, I would eat that, 92 00:05:03.959 --> 00:05:06.000 no problem. I don't have an issue with it at all. 93 00:05:06.040 --> 00:05:08.360 But it affects other people that I work with and 94 00:05:08.399 --> 00:05:10.120 so forth, and so it becomes a little more difficult. 95 00:05:10.120 --> 00:05:12.279 And it's unfortunate because, like you said, he's done all 96 00:05:12.319 --> 00:05:16.079 the work, and it's really impossible to talk about the 97 00:05:16.160 --> 00:05:19.040 issue without ripping him off a little bit, just because 98 00:05:19.079 --> 00:05:21.319 he did all the work, Like that's who did it, 99 00:05:21.360 --> 00:05:24.160 you know, and so he was credit for sure. 100 00:05:24.240 --> 00:05:25.759 How was it making fun of you? I'm pretty sure 101 00:05:25.759 --> 00:05:27.399 you knew who I was making fun of. 102 00:05:27.879 --> 00:05:32.480 Yeah, yeah, I do. Yeah, And you know, it's unfortunate. 103 00:05:32.600 --> 00:05:35.240 But uh, there's another example. You talk about Ben's Swan 104 00:05:35.319 --> 00:05:37.720 getting run off the rails. You know, he's another person, 105 00:05:38.879 --> 00:05:43.000 you know, got the full Alex Jones times ten treatment, 106 00:05:43.160 --> 00:05:45.560 you know, and he's not somebody you know, Ryan Dawson's 107 00:05:45.600 --> 00:05:48.160 not some dude who had millions and millions of people 108 00:05:48.279 --> 00:05:50.000 who were following him and they were like, we got 109 00:05:50.000 --> 00:05:52.800 to do something, but still they thought it was important 110 00:05:52.920 --> 00:05:55.759 enough to basically go as hard on him as they've 111 00:05:55.759 --> 00:05:58.800 gone on just about anybody, which is, you know, remarkable 112 00:05:58.800 --> 00:05:59.319 in itself. 113 00:06:00.279 --> 00:06:06.360 So you started looking into this Pizzagate thing, and you, 114 00:06:07.600 --> 00:06:11.319 I don't know, it just seems so silly, right of course. 115 00:06:11.519 --> 00:06:15.360 Yeah, it's the most ridiculous thing that you've ever heard about. 116 00:06:15.439 --> 00:06:19.319 I mean, there's a satan an elite satanic pedophile ring 117 00:06:19.399 --> 00:06:21.639 being run out of the basement of a pizza shop 118 00:06:21.680 --> 00:06:24.759 in Washington, DC. It's the dumbest thing you've ever heard, 119 00:06:24.879 --> 00:06:31.720 for sure. And so I kind of approached the episode, 120 00:06:31.839 --> 00:06:33.600 you know, after doing the first one on Epstein and 121 00:06:33.639 --> 00:06:36.639 his intelligence connections, the second one where I step back 122 00:06:36.639 --> 00:06:39.800 and I just talked about several other cases over the 123 00:06:39.879 --> 00:06:45.839 last several decades where things like you know, the Finders Group, 124 00:06:46.639 --> 00:06:51.319 things like the Kincora Boys Home in Northern Ireland. There 125 00:06:51.319 --> 00:06:54.079 are a lot of instances where there seem to be, 126 00:06:55.160 --> 00:06:59.319 you know, instances of childhood sexual abuse, child sexual abuse 127 00:07:00.000 --> 00:07:03.720 where there are just fingerprints of intelligence agencies all around it. 128 00:07:03.759 --> 00:07:06.480 And obviously, when you're talking about intelligence agencies, it's like 129 00:07:06.519 --> 00:07:10.879 talking about the mafia. Everything's deniable, everything is circumstantial evidence. 130 00:07:10.920 --> 00:07:13.560 That's just the nature of the beast. But at a 131 00:07:13.600 --> 00:07:17.279 certain point you start to say, you know, if any 132 00:07:17.360 --> 00:07:21.439 one of these other cases is true, well then it's 133 00:07:21.480 --> 00:07:24.319 not unrealistic anymore, and it's more likely that the second 134 00:07:24.360 --> 00:07:25.879 one's going to be true, and it makes it more 135 00:07:25.959 --> 00:07:27.439 likely that the third and the rest of them could 136 00:07:27.519 --> 00:07:29.120 very well be true. Once you know that three or 137 00:07:29.120 --> 00:07:32.000 four of these things are true. You know that British 138 00:07:32.000 --> 00:07:36.639 intelligence was monitoring the Kincora Boys Home because they knew 139 00:07:36.680 --> 00:07:38.720 that there were a bunch of powerful people coming through 140 00:07:38.759 --> 00:07:43.319 there having sex with children they could later blackmail and control. 141 00:07:43.439 --> 00:07:47.439 Once you know that has happened, then it's not really 142 00:07:47.959 --> 00:07:52.560 you know, like I think when most people heard, you know, 143 00:07:52.639 --> 00:07:56.439 Ale's Acosta, Trump's labor secretary who was the prosecutor of 144 00:07:56.439 --> 00:07:59.959 Epstein back in his first case, say on the record, 145 00:08:00.680 --> 00:08:03.720 you know, to his interviewers when he was getting vetted 146 00:08:03.759 --> 00:08:06.439 for the labor secretary job, that he was told to 147 00:08:06.480 --> 00:08:11.040 back off Epstein because quote, he belonged to intelligence. Like 148 00:08:11.120 --> 00:08:13.000 in the world where I come from, and I'm not 149 00:08:13.040 --> 00:08:15.600 a journalist, maybe I should go to journalism school and 150 00:08:15.600 --> 00:08:17.399 they correct me on this, But I would think that 151 00:08:18.639 --> 00:08:21.879 there would be reporters camped out on his lawn and 152 00:08:21.959 --> 00:08:23.519 every time he poked his head out of his house, 153 00:08:23.560 --> 00:08:25.759 there'd be a microphone in his face saying, excuse me, sir, 154 00:08:25.839 --> 00:08:27.959 what did you mean when you said that Jeffrey Epstein 155 00:08:28.000 --> 00:08:31.639 was connected to intelligence? Obviously that's not what's going on, 156 00:08:31.720 --> 00:08:34.519 And in fact, the complete opposite is what has been 157 00:08:34.559 --> 00:08:38.399 going on, where there's a very obvious effort, just a 158 00:08:38.399 --> 00:08:41.879 full spectrum effort to suppress the story, to keep questions, 159 00:08:42.039 --> 00:08:48.399 just very obvious questions from being asked. And so yeah, 160 00:08:48.480 --> 00:08:51.240 that was the second episode, and then in the third episode, 161 00:08:52.000 --> 00:08:53.639 I just wanted to kind of tie it all together. 162 00:08:53.679 --> 00:08:56.559 And I really wasn't sure when I started it. I 163 00:08:56.600 --> 00:09:00.440 didn't really plan on talking about Pizzagate exactly. But what 164 00:09:00.480 --> 00:09:06.120 I found was it's a good window into the into 165 00:09:06.159 --> 00:09:09.759 the culture in Washington, d C. And it's not just DC. 166 00:09:09.919 --> 00:09:11.679 It's the same in London. It's the same, and just 167 00:09:11.759 --> 00:09:14.559 a lot of elite circles, whether it's you know, business, 168 00:09:17.039 --> 00:09:21.200 you know, when you start picking through the Pizzagate conspiracy 169 00:09:21.240 --> 00:09:23.960 theory and think about how did this thing start, how 170 00:09:23.960 --> 00:09:26.600 did it get going? You know, I kind of remember, 171 00:09:26.720 --> 00:09:28.759 like back in the day as I was watching on 172 00:09:28.799 --> 00:09:30.919 the chans and read it and everything, watching this thing 173 00:09:31.000 --> 00:09:34.960 as it was unfolding there at the beginning, and you know, 174 00:09:34.960 --> 00:09:37.639 it starts out in twenty sixteen because John Podesta, Hillary 175 00:09:37.679 --> 00:09:41.480 Clinton's campaign manager, gets his emails leaked and people are 176 00:09:41.480 --> 00:09:44.840 going through them and finding that, you know, normal stuff 177 00:09:44.879 --> 00:09:47.840 that the Clinton campaign rob Bernie Sanders and work with 178 00:09:47.840 --> 00:09:49.720 the DNC to like set that up, all that kind 179 00:09:49.720 --> 00:09:53.799 of stuff, and people are arguing over whether this was 180 00:09:53.879 --> 00:09:56.679 Vladimir Putin and Donald Trump working together and so forth. 181 00:09:56.720 --> 00:10:00.960 But then some people came across some emails that really 182 00:10:00.960 --> 00:10:04.799 didn't seem to make any kind of sense if you 183 00:10:04.960 --> 00:10:07.879 just read them in a literal way, right, Like there 184 00:10:07.919 --> 00:10:11.960 were things like somebody writing John Podesta and saying like, hey, 185 00:10:12.039 --> 00:10:16.440 after the party from last week, we found a handkerchief 186 00:10:16.519 --> 00:10:19.080 with a map that looks pizza related, like do you 187 00:10:19.120 --> 00:10:22.679 want it back? And he says no or whatever. There's 188 00:10:22.679 --> 00:10:24.639 a bunch of little weird things like that that people 189 00:10:24.679 --> 00:10:26.840 are like, well, that doesn't even make any sense, Like 190 00:10:26.879 --> 00:10:29.840 why would there be a pizza related map on a 191 00:10:30.320 --> 00:10:33.039 handkerchief and why would it be important enough that he 192 00:10:33.039 --> 00:10:35.360 would want to like you know, return it to him whatever. 193 00:10:35.440 --> 00:10:40.240 And so they see that, and I believe this part. 194 00:10:40.320 --> 00:10:44.080 I wasn't around for somebody who's who was around for 195 00:10:44.200 --> 00:10:46.639 it told me that this was how the pizza thing 196 00:10:46.720 --> 00:10:50.600 got got started. Was it on the chans back in 197 00:10:50.639 --> 00:10:55.080 the day, like several years ago. I think people would 198 00:10:55.080 --> 00:10:57.320 come in and sometimes try to troll the board or 199 00:10:57.679 --> 00:11:00.399 get it in trouble by posting child porn or what 200 00:11:00.480 --> 00:11:04.200 looked like child porn, and so to not trip the filters, 201 00:11:04.679 --> 00:11:07.440 they would call it cheese pizza CP, and that that's 202 00:11:07.480 --> 00:11:09.559 where the pizza association came from. I'm not one hundred 203 00:11:09.559 --> 00:11:11.639 percent sure if that's true or not. That's what somebody 204 00:11:11.679 --> 00:11:14.320 who was there kind of told me. But the point 205 00:11:14.399 --> 00:11:18.919 is they read they started reading these strange emails as 206 00:11:19.000 --> 00:11:24.399 code where pizza is porn, cheese pizza's child porn, maps 207 00:11:24.440 --> 00:11:27.159 and handkerchiefs mean X, Y and Z having to do 208 00:11:27.240 --> 00:11:29.840 it this weird stuff. And then of course there's thousands 209 00:11:29.840 --> 00:11:31.639 and thousands of emails, and so if you do a 210 00:11:31.720 --> 00:11:34.600 search and you look for any time the word pizza 211 00:11:34.639 --> 00:11:38.639 shows up or map or handkerchief or whatever, it turns 212 00:11:38.679 --> 00:11:40.240 out that there's a bunch of emails in there that 213 00:11:40.279 --> 00:11:42.799 look pretty strange if you apply this cipher to it. 214 00:11:43.360 --> 00:11:45.320 And so that's how the whole thing kind of got started, 215 00:11:47.879 --> 00:11:51.639 when you know. So, yeah, that's how it got started. 216 00:11:52.320 --> 00:11:55.559 And I believe the next thing that happened, well, people 217 00:11:55.600 --> 00:11:57.919 started doing more research once they got on the trail 218 00:11:58.000 --> 00:12:01.440 of it. Somebody would bring up, for example, you know 219 00:12:01.519 --> 00:12:05.559 Andrew Breitbart's tweet from back and I want to say, like, 220 00:12:05.840 --> 00:12:08.600 what was it twenty thirteen or twenty fourteen or something 221 00:12:09.080 --> 00:12:10.000 than that. 222 00:12:10.039 --> 00:12:11.080 I think it was twenty eleven. 223 00:12:11.480 --> 00:12:14.559 Yeah, so all the way back in twenty eleven, and 224 00:12:14.960 --> 00:12:18.440 what does he say, how Prague guru John Podesta isn't 225 00:12:18.440 --> 00:12:22.159 a household name as a world class underage sex slave 226 00:12:22.320 --> 00:12:28.399 op cover upper defending unspeakable dregs escapes me. It's like, okay, look, 227 00:12:28.480 --> 00:12:31.559 Andrew Breitbart for sure is like a bomb thrower. You know, 228 00:12:31.600 --> 00:12:33.919 he's out there like starting fights or whatever. But he's 229 00:12:33.960 --> 00:12:37.440 also a wealthy businessman who's got to worry about things 230 00:12:37.480 --> 00:12:40.320 like libel and slander suits and so coming out and 231 00:12:40.320 --> 00:12:44.559 saying something like that is that's pretty serious. And he 232 00:12:44.639 --> 00:12:50.039 never backed down from it, and you know, it's almost 233 00:12:50.039 --> 00:12:51.919 as if he was like daring Podesta to take him 234 00:12:51.919 --> 00:12:54.440 into court and go do discovery or something. You know, 235 00:12:54.840 --> 00:12:57.279 some people found that because they're talking about John Podesta, 236 00:12:57.320 --> 00:13:00.000 these are his emails, and they go back years ago, 237 00:13:00.080 --> 00:13:04.320 go and find you know, Andrew Breitbart basically accusing him 238 00:13:04.320 --> 00:13:08.360 of running an underage sex slave operation. And then after 239 00:13:08.759 --> 00:13:12.639 Anthony Weiner got busted for texting sexting with an underage girl, 240 00:13:13.879 --> 00:13:16.919 Breitbart had been out there saying that this was going on, 241 00:13:16.960 --> 00:13:18.720 that there was a scandal out there for a long time, 242 00:13:19.240 --> 00:13:21.320 and he finally got vindicated, and he was on an 243 00:13:21.320 --> 00:13:23.200 episode of Red Eye. I think it was a great 244 00:13:23.240 --> 00:13:28.720 Gutfeld and they're talking about this and you know, he's 245 00:13:28.759 --> 00:13:33.399 obviously very excited, and Greg Guttfeld says something like, you know, 246 00:13:33.480 --> 00:13:39.159 he mentioned something about ping pong, and Andrew Breitbart interrupts him 247 00:13:39.320 --> 00:13:40.799 as he's like in the middle of a sentence, and 248 00:13:40.799 --> 00:13:43.799 he goes, huh, why would you switch the subject to 249 00:13:43.840 --> 00:13:46.519 the sport of ping pong? And the guy's like, Greg 250 00:13:46.519 --> 00:13:48.480 Gutfeld says, you know, you know how it is, and 251 00:13:48.519 --> 00:13:50.679 he's like, yeah, you're weird like that, like in a 252 00:13:50.759 --> 00:13:53.840 very kind of knowing tone of voice, very strange. Well, 253 00:13:53.879 --> 00:13:57.960 the next thing, people found in those emails was stuff 254 00:13:58.000 --> 00:14:00.200 about this place in DC, this pizza place. It is 255 00:14:00.240 --> 00:14:03.240 called comet Ping Pong Pizza. And people might remember that 256 00:14:03.279 --> 00:14:05.440 from the news because a dude with an AR fifteen 257 00:14:05.519 --> 00:14:09.000 showed up there to search the place for, you know, 258 00:14:09.080 --> 00:14:14.559 a sex dungeon in the basement. Comet Ping Pong Pizza. 259 00:14:15.080 --> 00:14:19.039 You know it was. I mean, it's something again, like 260 00:14:19.080 --> 00:14:21.720 the as you go through all of this stuff, it's 261 00:14:21.720 --> 00:14:24.879 all it all sounds so ridiculous, and maybe the whole 262 00:14:24.879 --> 00:14:28.519 thing is completely ridiculous, like the actual story once you 263 00:14:28.559 --> 00:14:30.120 tie it all together, but when you take all the 264 00:14:30.159 --> 00:14:33.440 little bits of it, you know, comet Ping Pong pizzas 265 00:14:33.519 --> 00:14:39.759 run by a guy named Jane's alaphontis. So yeah, and. 266 00:14:41.279 --> 00:14:43.080 Your tweet, your tweet this morning. 267 00:14:43.279 --> 00:14:46.360 Is that something else or what I mean, Like, I don't, 268 00:14:46.519 --> 00:14:49.039 I mean, Aliphantis is a Greek name. It's a common 269 00:14:49.039 --> 00:14:51.159 Greek name, so it's fine. But like the fact that 270 00:14:51.279 --> 00:14:54.960 Jean Leon fonts it's almost spelled the exact same way, 271 00:14:54.960 --> 00:14:57.240 and it means I like children or I love children. 272 00:14:57.279 --> 00:14:59.519 It's very strange. I don't even know if that's his 273 00:14:59.600 --> 00:15:02.600 real name. If it is, then it's just a huge coincidence. 274 00:15:02.639 --> 00:15:05.480 If it's not, then you know, throw them in jail. 275 00:15:07.399 --> 00:15:10.960 And so this guy's a pizza place owner in Washington, 276 00:15:11.039 --> 00:15:13.519 d C. Place called Comet Ping Pong Pizza and he 277 00:15:13.600 --> 00:15:15.960 is listed in GQ magazine as one of the fifty 278 00:15:15.960 --> 00:15:19.000 most powerful people in Washington, d C. Which is a 279 00:15:19.039 --> 00:15:23.320 little strange. He used to be the boyfriend of David Brock, 280 00:15:23.679 --> 00:15:26.759 the founder of Media Matters back in the day that 281 00:15:26.639 --> 00:15:31.919 was that was years ago. And so as there people 282 00:15:31.919 --> 00:15:34.960 start going through investigating this comic Ping Pong Pizza place. 283 00:15:35.120 --> 00:15:37.240 They thought it was weird that Breitbart had had that 284 00:15:37.279 --> 00:15:40.320 sort of weird exchange about Ping Pong, And they start 285 00:15:40.320 --> 00:15:44.559 investigating this place a little and they have musical acts 286 00:15:44.600 --> 00:15:46.840 that will come and perform. This is a place that 287 00:15:47.080 --> 00:15:52.159 is advertised for children, and so as a place for kids, 288 00:15:52.200 --> 00:15:54.960 bring your kids to this place. It's a fun place. Well, 289 00:15:54.960 --> 00:15:57.360 they have these acts, these musical acts that come through 290 00:15:57.919 --> 00:16:02.399 that are sort of like the best way I can 291 00:16:02.440 --> 00:16:06.120 describe it is that it's sort of a weird surrealist 292 00:16:06.480 --> 00:16:11.919 like David Lynch meets Pink Flamingos kind of aesthetic where 293 00:16:12.039 --> 00:16:16.159 it's sort of this trashy but like surrealistic creepy sort 294 00:16:16.159 --> 00:16:21.200 of vibe that you get they would. There's videos, music 295 00:16:21.279 --> 00:16:23.720 videos and promo videos that a couple of these bands 296 00:16:23.759 --> 00:16:25.679 have cut that we know we're playing there because they 297 00:16:25.679 --> 00:16:32.919 were on advertisements. And one of them is called, oh gosh, 298 00:16:33.000 --> 00:16:34.360 what is the one called? I know one of them 299 00:16:34.440 --> 00:16:39.600 is called sex Stains, and then there's another one called well, 300 00:16:39.639 --> 00:16:41.799 the lead singer is called Majestic Ape. I can't remember 301 00:16:42.000 --> 00:16:43.639 the name of the band off the top of me. 302 00:16:43.720 --> 00:16:45.440 It's been a while since I've really looked hard into 303 00:16:45.440 --> 00:16:48.519 this stuff, but you know, the one there's they're they're 304 00:16:48.559 --> 00:16:52.200 on stage joking about pedophilia. They're joking about pedophilia and 305 00:16:52.240 --> 00:16:58.000 their songs, and then this other band, sex Stains, that's 306 00:16:58.039 --> 00:17:00.000 performed there. They have a music video that you can 307 00:17:00.080 --> 00:17:05.359 go watch on YouTube, and it takes place this music video. 308 00:17:05.480 --> 00:17:08.519 Most of it in like a child's nursery basically, and 309 00:17:08.559 --> 00:17:12.400 there's big and large toys and blocks and various things around, 310 00:17:13.400 --> 00:17:19.480 and there's this very prominently featured throughout the video is 311 00:17:19.480 --> 00:17:23.880 this large block, multicolored block, and on one side of it, 312 00:17:23.880 --> 00:17:27.279 the side that's always facing the camera, is this symbol 313 00:17:27.400 --> 00:17:31.519 that looks basically like a triangular spiral like it's a 314 00:17:31.559 --> 00:17:34.920 spiral but in the shape of a triangle, right, And 315 00:17:35.599 --> 00:17:40.640 turns out that there is a released FBI document looks 316 00:17:40.640 --> 00:17:43.599 like it's maybe like a training document or something that 317 00:17:43.319 --> 00:17:47.079 got released that you can go find this on the 318 00:17:47.119 --> 00:17:50.039 internet as well. It says symbols and logos used by 319 00:17:50.039 --> 00:17:54.119 pedophiles to identify sexual preferences. And then it shows several examples, 320 00:17:54.119 --> 00:17:57.319 some of them drawn, some of them on coins or 321 00:17:57.440 --> 00:18:01.519 rings or amulets wear around your neck that are that 322 00:18:01.640 --> 00:18:05.079 exact symbol, that triangular spiral thing that apparently this is 323 00:18:05.480 --> 00:18:11.319 one of the ways that pedophiles expressed their proclivities to 324 00:18:11.359 --> 00:18:14.359 one another, like on the downlow, I suppose. And so 325 00:18:14.759 --> 00:18:18.079 at the end of that music video, the lead singer 326 00:18:18.119 --> 00:18:22.519 of the band is kind of she's got her hands 327 00:18:22.559 --> 00:18:25.039 out in like this weird position. I don't know what 328 00:18:25.039 --> 00:18:29.519 she's doing, almost some sort of like anyway she's she's 329 00:18:29.559 --> 00:18:33.279 reaching out directly toward this symbol. It's like the only 330 00:18:33.319 --> 00:18:36.039 thing really that's prominent in the thing in the foreground 331 00:18:36.079 --> 00:18:38.200 there is the lead singer and this big block with 332 00:18:38.240 --> 00:18:42.079 that symbol, and she's facing it and basically obviously her 333 00:18:42.079 --> 00:18:44.359 attention is on it and that's how the music video ends, 334 00:18:44.400 --> 00:18:48.440 after this thing has been prominently placed throughout the entire video, 335 00:18:48.720 --> 00:18:51.400 and so people think that's very strange. People think it's 336 00:18:51.440 --> 00:18:54.680 strange that two doors down from Comet Ping Pong Pizza 337 00:18:54.799 --> 00:18:58.119 was a place called besta Pizza and that the logo 338 00:18:58.319 --> 00:19:02.160 of that place was a pizza slice, which is in 339 00:19:02.200 --> 00:19:04.319 the form of a triangle that was done up like 340 00:19:04.359 --> 00:19:07.440 a spiral, just like that symbol, the exact same thing. 341 00:19:08.039 --> 00:19:11.359 They changed the logo a few weeks after all this 342 00:19:11.400 --> 00:19:13.519 stuff started popping up on the Internet and the place 343 00:19:13.599 --> 00:19:16.119 is closed now, I think, And so that was all 344 00:19:16.240 --> 00:19:20.559 very strange. The guy James alafontis the owner, you know. 345 00:19:21.039 --> 00:19:24.599 People found his Instagram page and the avatar that he 346 00:19:24.720 --> 00:19:30.000 used for his Instagram page was a statue of Antonis, 347 00:19:30.039 --> 00:19:32.559 who was the teenage boy lover of the emperor Roman 348 00:19:32.599 --> 00:19:37.480 Emperor Hadrian. On his Instagram page, there were a lot 349 00:19:37.519 --> 00:19:40.880 of pictures that in comments that if you just took 350 00:19:40.920 --> 00:19:44.240 him out of took him out of context or very strange. 351 00:19:44.240 --> 00:19:47.480 A child who's like taped to a table and jokes 352 00:19:47.519 --> 00:19:52.720 about things that could be interpreted that way. And so 353 00:19:52.759 --> 00:19:56.279 people think this is all very strange, especially when they're 354 00:19:56.279 --> 00:20:00.279 already listening to what Andrew Breitbart said, and there you know, 355 00:20:00.279 --> 00:20:02.759 they're already kind of three quarters of the way down 356 00:20:02.759 --> 00:20:08.839 the rabbit hole. Well, then somebody discovers an email that 357 00:20:09.039 --> 00:20:14.200 involves this. This it's an invitation from this performance artist 358 00:20:14.720 --> 00:20:21.920 called Marina Abramovic, and she has an event called Spirit Cooking. 359 00:20:22.640 --> 00:20:25.240 And everybody's probably heard of this, like at least in name, 360 00:20:26.440 --> 00:20:29.960 but for those who haven't, John and Tony Pizzet Podesta 361 00:20:30.000 --> 00:20:34.079 his brother were invited personally by Marina Abramovic to come 362 00:20:34.079 --> 00:20:36.640 to this Spirit Cooking event. And what it is is 363 00:20:36.680 --> 00:20:39.759 it's a dinner that takes place in a multi roomed 364 00:20:39.839 --> 00:20:45.240 art installation that is just it's I mean, if you 365 00:20:45.240 --> 00:20:49.039 were to tell somebody that this was some sort of 366 00:20:49.559 --> 00:20:52.440 a devil worship like ritual or something, I don't think 367 00:20:52.440 --> 00:20:55.319 they would change much about it. Like there's white walls, 368 00:20:56.200 --> 00:20:59.880 and the walls are covered with really cryptic, weird pre 369 00:21:00.079 --> 00:21:05.000 be messages about drinking fresh breast milk on earthquake nights, 370 00:21:05.000 --> 00:21:08.839 a lot of sort of art school like edge Lord bullshit, 371 00:21:08.920 --> 00:21:11.839 but it's written in pigs blood up on the walls. 372 00:21:12.480 --> 00:21:14.680 In one of the corners, there's an effigy of an 373 00:21:14.680 --> 00:21:17.880 infant with a bucket of pigs blood splashed all over it. 374 00:21:17.960 --> 00:21:22.720 There's little dolls that are, you know, positioned like they're copulating. 375 00:21:22.920 --> 00:21:27.039 And in the meal, the people who are there to 376 00:21:27.119 --> 00:21:30.799 participate in this thing, they drink things that are they're 377 00:21:30.839 --> 00:21:33.880 supposed to pretend or human blood or semen or breast milk. 378 00:21:34.759 --> 00:21:37.160 In another spirit cooking event that took place. You could 379 00:21:37.160 --> 00:21:39.960 find these pictures on the internet with like Lady Gaga 380 00:21:40.000 --> 00:21:42.039 and Gwen Stefani, a lot of other people like this. 381 00:21:42.680 --> 00:21:48.000 You know, they're there with like a naked body a person, 382 00:21:48.039 --> 00:21:51.200 a real person, lying in a tub of what's supposed 383 00:21:51.240 --> 00:21:53.519 to be blood, and they're pretending to be a corpse 384 00:21:53.519 --> 00:21:56.519 and people are eating off of them. A lot of 385 00:21:56.599 --> 00:22:00.200 just very weird, strange stuff, right, And so people we'll 386 00:22:00.200 --> 00:22:02.039 see and Abrama Vic herself, I mean, you can go 387 00:22:02.119 --> 00:22:05.519 find you know, her pictures on the internet, and she's 388 00:22:05.559 --> 00:22:07.720 got pictures of herself all in red holding up a 389 00:22:07.720 --> 00:22:10.880 bloody goat's head, another one with a snake around her 390 00:22:10.880 --> 00:22:13.759 head and neck and in her mouth. She was apparently 391 00:22:13.839 --> 00:22:16.839 friends with that Brazilian cult leader John of God, who 392 00:22:16.920 --> 00:22:19.680 is running a sex slave operation down there you can 393 00:22:19.759 --> 00:22:21.599 kind of forgive her for that. I guess Oprah and 394 00:22:21.640 --> 00:22:24.680 a million other people were apparently good buddies with that guy, 395 00:22:24.759 --> 00:22:29.480 so surprise, surprise. But you get to this and people, 396 00:22:29.640 --> 00:22:31.599 you know, I start asking questions, right, and so people 397 00:22:31.640 --> 00:22:35.920 start tying all this stuff together. They say, okay, there 398 00:22:35.960 --> 00:22:40.160 are you know, there's the code word emails that are 399 00:22:40.200 --> 00:22:42.559 telling us that there's something to do with pedophilia going. 400 00:22:43.319 --> 00:22:44.759 And then they take it out and they say, okay, 401 00:22:44.799 --> 00:22:48.079 now there's this pizza place involved, and this guy's connected 402 00:22:48.079 --> 00:22:49.880 to a bunch of other people, and so now it's 403 00:22:49.920 --> 00:22:53.640 this sort of sprawling pedophile ring. And then they discover 404 00:22:53.720 --> 00:22:55.920 the spirit cooking thing and they say, okay, this is 405 00:22:55.960 --> 00:23:00.240 actually a ritualistic, satanic elite pedophile ring. And that's kind 406 00:23:00.279 --> 00:23:05.519 of where you get to at this point. It got 407 00:23:05.559 --> 00:23:12.599 really fun when people started looking into John Podesta's brother, 408 00:23:13.319 --> 00:23:18.279 Tony Podesta. So Tony Podesta and John Podesta, you know, 409 00:23:18.319 --> 00:23:22.480 Podesta's both of these guys like they're those you know, 410 00:23:22.519 --> 00:23:24.920 there's like a whole class of these people who never 411 00:23:25.039 --> 00:23:28.559 run for office, they never run a government agency or 412 00:23:28.640 --> 00:23:30.720 anything like that, but they just always seem to be 413 00:23:30.799 --> 00:23:34.599 around somehow you know, they're always there whenever you like. 414 00:23:34.599 --> 00:23:37.039 Guys who owned pizza shops and get or like in 415 00:23:37.119 --> 00:23:37.640 the top. 416 00:23:37.480 --> 00:23:44.000 Fifty, right exactly. And so John Podesta was friends with 417 00:23:44.000 --> 00:23:46.400 Bill Clinton going back to the early seventies. They worked 418 00:23:46.440 --> 00:23:50.880 for the same senator together and he remained in that circle. 419 00:23:51.079 --> 00:23:53.480 And in nineteen eighty eight, he and his brother Tony, 420 00:23:54.079 --> 00:23:56.559 right as Bill Clinton is kind of deciding he's going 421 00:23:56.599 --> 00:23:59.960 to run for president, John and his brother Tony Podesta 422 00:24:00.079 --> 00:24:03.279 to start the Podesta Group, which, up until it closed 423 00:24:03.319 --> 00:24:06.799 a few years ago right after Hillary Clinton lost the presidency, 424 00:24:08.839 --> 00:24:12.680 was certainly one of maybe the most powerful Democrat side 425 00:24:12.720 --> 00:24:16.640 lobbying firm in Washington, very very connected because these are 426 00:24:16.640 --> 00:24:19.319 people who are connected to the Clinton kind of operation 427 00:24:19.599 --> 00:24:22.079 very very closely, and you know that's been running the 428 00:24:22.160 --> 00:24:25.759 show for a long time on the Democrat side. And 429 00:24:25.839 --> 00:24:28.039 so they started that up in nineteen eighty eight, and 430 00:24:28.079 --> 00:24:31.200 then John Podesta stepped away in nineteen ninety two to 431 00:24:31.240 --> 00:24:33.319 go work for Bill Clinton, and he worked for him 432 00:24:33.319 --> 00:24:36.119 throughout his presidency, eventually got to be his chief of staff. 433 00:24:36.880 --> 00:24:40.279 Gets done with the Clinton administration, and I think two 434 00:24:40.319 --> 00:24:43.599 thousand and three he started the Center for American progress. 435 00:24:43.599 --> 00:24:46.400 And then twenty sixteen he's running Hillary Clinton's campaign, so 436 00:24:46.640 --> 00:24:49.960 he's just very involved in that whole circle. And this 437 00:24:50.039 --> 00:24:53.559 whole time, his brother Tony now is running the lobbying 438 00:24:53.599 --> 00:24:56.240 group by himself because you know, I think you have 439 00:24:56.279 --> 00:24:58.480 to do it that way for conflicts of interest reasons. 440 00:24:58.559 --> 00:25:01.319 But they still work closely together obviously, and you know, 441 00:25:01.640 --> 00:25:04.279 it's it's a everybody kind of knows what's going on, right. 442 00:25:06.119 --> 00:25:07.920 And so it turns out that Tony Pedesta is a 443 00:25:07.920 --> 00:25:13.759 big art collector. And in twenty fourteen there was a 444 00:25:13.799 --> 00:25:18.559 profile of his house in a Washington society magazine called 445 00:25:18.720 --> 00:25:22.880 Washington Life, and they profile his house and some of 446 00:25:22.920 --> 00:25:25.440 his art. He's a well known art collector, I mean 447 00:25:25.480 --> 00:25:28.920 a very very big, like multimillion dollar, you know, pieces 448 00:25:28.960 --> 00:25:32.079 of art kind of thing, and they profile some of 449 00:25:32.079 --> 00:25:35.720 the stuff he's got in his house. The first thing 450 00:25:35.759 --> 00:25:38.640 that you notice is or that people noticed, was the 451 00:25:38.799 --> 00:25:43.440 giant statue. It's like a golden colored like bronze statue 452 00:25:43.559 --> 00:25:47.200 all shined up that is a human, a headless human, 453 00:25:47.319 --> 00:25:52.400 basically in a full backward arch. And it's called the 454 00:25:52.519 --> 00:25:56.200 Arch of Hysteria and it's by an artist called Louise 455 00:25:56.240 --> 00:26:01.119 Bourgeois and people. I don't know who found this. It 456 00:26:01.200 --> 00:26:04.000 wasn't me, but somebody pointed out that there is a 457 00:26:04.000 --> 00:26:07.240 picture that is a public of the aftermath of one 458 00:26:07.279 --> 00:26:12.599 of the serial killer in Cannibal, Jeffrey Dahmer's Victims, and 459 00:26:12.640 --> 00:26:14.519 he took a picture of it because he would play 460 00:26:14.559 --> 00:26:16.599 with the corpses and do various things sometimes and take 461 00:26:16.640 --> 00:26:19.039 pictures of him where he had the corpse in pretty 462 00:26:19.119 --> 00:26:23.400 much the exact same position that this statue is depicting. 463 00:26:23.720 --> 00:26:27.400 And this statue she did this a year after all 464 00:26:27.440 --> 00:26:31.440 the Dahmer stuff became public. Now, Louis Bourgeois, apparently there 465 00:26:31.480 --> 00:26:34.799 are sketches in books going back a long time ago 466 00:26:34.839 --> 00:26:38.279 where she was drawing this thing, so like, that's probably 467 00:26:38.319 --> 00:26:40.599 not where the concept came from. But when people noticed that, 468 00:26:40.640 --> 00:26:45.359 obviously it continued to throw jet fuel on this fire. Well, 469 00:26:46.319 --> 00:26:48.880 then people started to look at some of the paintings 470 00:26:48.880 --> 00:26:51.359 he had on his walls, and these you can't really 471 00:26:51.839 --> 00:26:55.279 explain away like that, Oh I should mention, by the way, 472 00:26:55.319 --> 00:26:58.119 Louis Bourgeois, she's also got like there are sketches and 473 00:26:58.240 --> 00:27:03.960 drawings that have been made public that they show the 474 00:27:04.000 --> 00:27:06.799 two of them in particular where it's like a page 475 00:27:06.880 --> 00:27:09.079 or a canvas with a line drawn down the middle 476 00:27:09.079 --> 00:27:11.279 of it, and a little boy and a full grown 477 00:27:11.359 --> 00:27:15.319 man with father and son written beneath them, kind of 478 00:27:15.359 --> 00:27:19.079 holding on to the middle line like it's a pole 479 00:27:19.200 --> 00:27:21.119 or reaching out toward each other something, and they both 480 00:27:21.160 --> 00:27:24.279 have erections. And so that's a little strange, right, Not 481 00:27:24.359 --> 00:27:27.960 everybody draws stuff like that in their spare time. And 482 00:27:28.039 --> 00:27:31.599 so people started looking at the paintings on his walls, 483 00:27:31.640 --> 00:27:34.440 and these are pictures that are in the magazine profile, right, 484 00:27:34.480 --> 00:27:39.920 So these are things that he I mean, if I 485 00:27:40.000 --> 00:27:42.880 had an art collection with a bunch of pictures of 486 00:27:42.920 --> 00:27:45.559 what we're about to talk about, I would probably take 487 00:27:45.599 --> 00:27:49.000 those down before company came over. I would certainly take 488 00:27:49.039 --> 00:27:51.599 them down before the photographers showed up to profile my 489 00:27:51.680 --> 00:27:56.440 house in a society magazine. But apparently that's not something 490 00:27:56.440 --> 00:27:58.960 he felt was really necessary. And so there are a 491 00:27:59.000 --> 00:28:03.039 couple of paintings by this artist named Bill Yanna Jorjyevik 492 00:28:03.480 --> 00:28:06.960 or Djerjivic, I'm not sure she's Serbian artist. And the 493 00:28:07.000 --> 00:28:09.440 one you see in his living room, I'm looking at 494 00:28:09.480 --> 00:28:11.160 it right now. He's got, you know, a big white 495 00:28:11.160 --> 00:28:14.319 couch a nice you know rich man in DC's living room, 496 00:28:14.759 --> 00:28:17.039 and in the background there's this painting and you can 497 00:28:17.119 --> 00:28:21.160 make it out pretty clearly. And the full resolution version 498 00:28:21.160 --> 00:28:24.440 of this painting is available, you know online, you can 499 00:28:24.480 --> 00:28:27.839 just google it Billiyana Jerjievic. You'll find all this stuff. 500 00:28:28.119 --> 00:28:30.960 And it's a little girl with a sort of weird, 501 00:28:30.960 --> 00:28:34.440 deformed looking face and black sort of almost dead eyes, 502 00:28:35.519 --> 00:28:38.759 sitting on a stool with a short skirt up against 503 00:28:40.319 --> 00:28:43.000 like what looks like a tile bathroom wall or something 504 00:28:43.039 --> 00:28:46.960 like that. And that's one of them. It's like, Okay, 505 00:28:47.000 --> 00:28:49.519 it's a little creepy. It's creepy and weird and not 506 00:28:49.599 --> 00:28:52.680 something I would have on my wall, but okay, whatever. Well, 507 00:28:52.680 --> 00:28:54.839 then there's another picture of another room, kind of a 508 00:28:54.880 --> 00:28:57.319 sitting room with an orange couch and a yellow chair 509 00:28:57.559 --> 00:28:59.359 in a blue chair. And there are two more of 510 00:28:59.400 --> 00:29:02.720 this artist paintings from this same series. One of them 511 00:29:02.759 --> 00:29:05.440 is this huge painting. It's about maybe looks like it's 512 00:29:05.440 --> 00:29:07.640 about five or six feet tall by eight or ten 513 00:29:07.680 --> 00:29:12.960 feet why it dominates the room. And it's another one 514 00:29:13.000 --> 00:29:16.119 that you can find online. And what it depicts it's 515 00:29:16.119 --> 00:29:20.440 called synchronized swimming and it's got a bunch of young 516 00:29:20.480 --> 00:29:24.880 girls dressed in you know, different ways, laying in a 517 00:29:24.920 --> 00:29:27.359 circle on the bottom of a swimming of an empty 518 00:29:27.400 --> 00:29:31.079 swimming pool, and they've got that same sort of dead 519 00:29:31.119 --> 00:29:34.519 look in their eyes. They look like corpses, most of them. 520 00:29:33.839 --> 00:29:38.480 And that's the giant painting that he's got dominating this room, 521 00:29:38.480 --> 00:29:41.000 in this other walls, a bunch of young girls that 522 00:29:41.039 --> 00:29:44.000 look dead lying on the bottom of a swimming pool. Well, 523 00:29:44.079 --> 00:29:47.279 kitty corner to that is another one of these paintings. 524 00:29:47.319 --> 00:29:49.559 This one's about poster size, from the same series, and 525 00:29:49.599 --> 00:29:54.440 this one is unmistakably two young girls dead, lying dead 526 00:29:54.559 --> 00:29:58.000 in a pool or a pond, rather a pond or 527 00:29:58.119 --> 00:30:00.680 river or something like that, and they're laying on their backs, 528 00:30:00.720 --> 00:30:04.440 just looking up at the camera and their their their 529 00:30:04.440 --> 00:30:07.359 corpses like there's really no question about it. And so 530 00:30:09.119 --> 00:30:12.279 this same artist has done has done a bunch of 531 00:30:12.359 --> 00:30:15.160 others that weren't on Tony Pedesta's walls, and these pictures 532 00:30:15.359 --> 00:30:16.960 of this same series, a lot of them with the 533 00:30:17.000 --> 00:30:19.799 tile backgrounds. One of them, there's a little girl in 534 00:30:19.839 --> 00:30:22.519 a striped white and yellow shirt in her panties up 535 00:30:22.559 --> 00:30:25.279 against the wall and it's like picturing her from behind. 536 00:30:25.720 --> 00:30:27.559 There's another one with a little boy and just his 537 00:30:27.720 --> 00:30:32.839 underwear who's bound and tied up hanging against a tile wall. 538 00:30:33.599 --> 00:30:35.920 There's another one with a with a little girl who's 539 00:30:36.000 --> 00:30:38.759 lying dead in a pond. Another one with a girl 540 00:30:38.799 --> 00:30:41.799 with some sort of a deformed face holding a dead baby. 541 00:30:44.559 --> 00:30:47.240 And so this is uh, you know. The the artist 542 00:30:47.920 --> 00:30:55.240 Billiana Jerjovic, she's been interviewed before in a in an 543 00:30:55.359 --> 00:30:59.839 art magazine and she said herself that things that she 544 00:30:59.880 --> 00:31:03.559 had read about pedophilia or inspirations for this series of artwork. 545 00:31:03.559 --> 00:31:07.240 And so that's certainly the association that's being made here. 546 00:31:07.240 --> 00:31:09.119 And it's very obvious in a lot of these things 547 00:31:09.160 --> 00:31:13.480 that it's depicting abuse of children. That's really what the 548 00:31:13.480 --> 00:31:15.720 theme is of all of these. One of my buddies, 549 00:31:15.759 --> 00:31:17.920 after I put that podcast down, pointed out to me 550 00:31:19.160 --> 00:31:23.759 he's a guy who he worked in a slaughterhouse for many, 551 00:31:23.799 --> 00:31:28.559 many years, and I kind of looked at all the 552 00:31:28.640 --> 00:31:31.759 tile backgrounds on these things and figured there was like 553 00:31:31.799 --> 00:31:34.960 a shower kind of swimming pool type thing. He pointed 554 00:31:35.000 --> 00:31:38.119 out that that's how all slaughterhouses pretty much look on 555 00:31:38.160 --> 00:31:40.119 the inside, and he sent me a ton of pictures, 556 00:31:40.119 --> 00:31:45.000 and sure enough, it's just tiled walls, tiled everything. And 557 00:31:45.039 --> 00:31:48.319 then I realized that one of the other paintings that 558 00:31:48.920 --> 00:31:53.079 Djerdjievik has as part of this part of this series 559 00:31:54.000 --> 00:31:58.319 is three or four butchers wearing hoods over their head 560 00:31:58.799 --> 00:32:02.759 with the butcher's long gloves and like high boots and 561 00:32:02.880 --> 00:32:06.039 butcher's aprons, and they're all standing around in one of 562 00:32:06.039 --> 00:32:08.880 those tiled rooms. And so it seems like she probably 563 00:32:08.880 --> 00:32:10.799 made that connection too. And what we're looking at in 564 00:32:10.839 --> 00:32:14.279 some of these paintings is a bunch of kids in 565 00:32:15.079 --> 00:32:21.160 really you know again like creepy, abuse oriented pictures in 566 00:32:21.279 --> 00:32:24.240 slaughter in a slaughter hus And so it's seems like 567 00:32:24.279 --> 00:32:29.440 what we're probably looking at, maybe maybe not in People 568 00:32:29.480 --> 00:32:34.559 found an interview with Tony Podesta and he was being 569 00:32:34.599 --> 00:32:38.839 asked about some of his other favorite artists, and he 570 00:32:39.160 --> 00:32:44.480 listed a sculptor named Patricia Piccinini as one of his 571 00:32:44.640 --> 00:32:46.559 very favorite artists. And I don't know, it's like a 572 00:32:46.559 --> 00:32:51.440 sculpture like she does, you know, the plastic arts of 573 00:32:51.440 --> 00:32:53.680 one kind or another. Basically, she makes these statues that 574 00:32:53.720 --> 00:32:56.880 look like concept art for like a surrealist horror movie. 575 00:32:58.200 --> 00:33:02.799 Basically most of them are the vast majority of them 576 00:33:02.799 --> 00:33:07.319 involved children with monsters or demons of one kind or 577 00:33:07.319 --> 00:33:10.519 another leering at them over like leering over them as 578 00:33:10.519 --> 00:33:14.279 they sleep in their beds. There's one with this creepy 579 00:33:14.480 --> 00:33:17.400 monster with its long claws around standing on a bed 580 00:33:17.440 --> 00:33:19.400 with this what looks like maybe a four year old 581 00:33:19.440 --> 00:33:23.799 girl with its claws around her. You know, a lot 582 00:33:23.799 --> 00:33:28.359 of there's a lot of imagery of like orifices that 583 00:33:28.440 --> 00:33:32.039 look like vaginas or anuses or mouths with things coming 584 00:33:32.039 --> 00:33:34.440 out of them and kids poking at them or playing 585 00:33:34.480 --> 00:33:38.839 with them. There's a weird one of a deformed child 586 00:33:39.960 --> 00:33:43.799 on top of like a horned goat. There's another one 587 00:33:44.200 --> 00:33:48.599 where there's this weird kind of pig monster with big 588 00:33:48.680 --> 00:33:51.599 pustules coming off of its back, with more monsters coming 589 00:33:51.599 --> 00:33:54.519 out of those, and it's behind this child, spooning him 590 00:33:54.519 --> 00:33:58.359 in bed, and so that's like, uh again, this is 591 00:33:58.440 --> 00:34:01.440 There's another one where there's a child trapped in a 592 00:34:01.440 --> 00:34:04.000 big spider's nest that with a bunch of eggs that 593 00:34:04.039 --> 00:34:07.559 are about to add So just creepy, weird stuff involving kids, right, 594 00:34:07.920 --> 00:34:10.079 And this is somebody that Tony Podesta listed is one 595 00:34:10.119 --> 00:34:14.559 of his very favorite, very favorite artists. Well, then in 596 00:34:14.599 --> 00:34:19.000 another interview he was asked the same question, and this 597 00:34:19.039 --> 00:34:23.840 is where you just start to wonder kind of what's 598 00:34:23.840 --> 00:34:26.400 going on. Here is another one of his favorite artists 599 00:34:26.440 --> 00:34:29.039 that he mentioned. And I'm sure he's got a lot 600 00:34:29.119 --> 00:34:31.320 of favorite artists, but when he was asked the question, 601 00:34:31.599 --> 00:34:33.159 these are the ones he thought of, and so that's 602 00:34:33.199 --> 00:34:36.559 probably relevant. Is this woman named Kim Noble, who's a 603 00:34:36.559 --> 00:34:41.800 British woman who spent most of her life in institutions 604 00:34:42.360 --> 00:34:47.280 like asylums. She's schizophrenic and has dissociative identity disorder, multiple 605 00:34:47.280 --> 00:34:52.760 personality disorder, and several of her multiple personalities are artists. 606 00:34:52.840 --> 00:34:58.760 And I'll put that in quotes because so Kim Noble 607 00:34:59.719 --> 00:35:07.039 was repeatedly, viciously, violently sexually abused for at least two 608 00:35:07.079 --> 00:35:10.000 years between the ages of one and three years old, 609 00:35:11.000 --> 00:35:14.039 and the damage that that did to her mind is 610 00:35:14.079 --> 00:35:17.039 again on display. She spent her entire life in institutions 611 00:35:17.079 --> 00:35:19.400 and the content of her paintings are not something that 612 00:35:19.880 --> 00:35:22.360 she's innocent of. This she should not be held accountable. 613 00:35:22.519 --> 00:35:26.280 This is a woman who's sick, obviously, but these drawings, 614 00:35:26.320 --> 00:35:29.079 these paintings that she does they're sort of scratched out 615 00:35:29.119 --> 00:35:33.239 stick figure kind of paintings, but it's everything's very clear 616 00:35:33.880 --> 00:35:36.679 in all of them exactly what's going on. It all 617 00:35:36.719 --> 00:35:43.440 depicts extreme violent sexual abuse of children by multiple adults. 618 00:35:43.440 --> 00:35:46.679 In many of these things, there's kids tied to chairs 619 00:35:46.679 --> 00:35:50.000 with adults with whips standing over them, while another child's 620 00:35:50.000 --> 00:35:53.199 on its knees covering its ears. There's another one with 621 00:35:53.239 --> 00:35:57.519 a little girl with adults surrounding her blindfolded, and it 622 00:35:57.519 --> 00:35:59.599 looks like her spirits kind of lifting up and leaving 623 00:35:59.599 --> 00:36:03.519 her body. There's another one with kids hanging and then 624 00:36:03.599 --> 00:36:08.000 standing in line in front of this adult who is 625 00:36:08.000 --> 00:36:10.000 sitting on a chair with a big smile on his 626 00:36:10.079 --> 00:36:13.039 face and he's got his hands down forcing the child 627 00:36:13.119 --> 00:36:17.079 to give him oral sex. You can look all these 628 00:36:17.159 --> 00:36:20.199 up on the internet. They're hard to look at, especially 629 00:36:20.199 --> 00:36:21.920 when you know the history where they're coming from. There's 630 00:36:21.960 --> 00:36:24.800 another one where, i mean, there's just a bunch of 631 00:36:24.840 --> 00:36:27.239 adults standing around a bed and there's a child laying 632 00:36:27.280 --> 00:36:29.480 on it and there's an adult crouched down on top 633 00:36:29.480 --> 00:36:32.800 of the child having sex with the child. There's ones 634 00:36:33.239 --> 00:36:36.920 where there's a bunch of adults standing around with children 635 00:36:36.960 --> 00:36:38.800 on their knees in front of them and they're urinating 636 00:36:38.840 --> 00:36:42.440 in the kid's mouths. This is one of the artists 637 00:36:42.480 --> 00:36:47.199 that Tony Podesta listed as one of his very favorite artists. 638 00:36:47.599 --> 00:36:50.480 And when you think about, Okay, all this is sick, 639 00:36:52.199 --> 00:36:54.719 but what we're really talking about here is a woman 640 00:36:55.039 --> 00:36:57.719 who had all of this stuff done to her for 641 00:36:57.880 --> 00:37:00.639 years when she was a small child, who's mind was 642 00:37:00.679 --> 00:37:05.159 shattered by that experience, and who now depicts this stuff, 643 00:37:06.079 --> 00:37:09.039 you know, just sort of again like she's not responsible 644 00:37:09.039 --> 00:37:12.599 for the content of these things. And the idea of 645 00:37:12.639 --> 00:37:18.159 some guy like Tony Podesta sitting around with a bunch 646 00:37:18.159 --> 00:37:20.920 of his you know, art friends over a thousand dollars 647 00:37:20.960 --> 00:37:24.239 bottle of wine looking at you know, oh, look at 648 00:37:24.239 --> 00:37:27.039 the use of color in this Kim Noble piece where 649 00:37:27.079 --> 00:37:29.639 the man is whipping and raping the child. It's just 650 00:37:29.760 --> 00:37:34.840 really sick. And it gets to the question that I 651 00:37:35.000 --> 00:37:37.000 that I this is the direction I took that third 652 00:37:37.000 --> 00:37:38.920 podcast is when you go through all this stuff and 653 00:37:38.920 --> 00:37:41.199 you lay it all out there, you can kind of 654 00:37:41.280 --> 00:37:45.199 understand why people had the response of what the hell 655 00:37:45.280 --> 00:37:49.239 is going on here? Whether or not you take that 656 00:37:50.039 --> 00:37:54.079 and tie it all together into there's this giant conspiracy 657 00:37:54.119 --> 00:37:57.559 involving a pizza place, and you know everything, everybody's connected 658 00:37:57.599 --> 00:38:00.400 and everybody's involved. You know, you don't have to do that. 659 00:38:00.519 --> 00:38:03.159 Like the thing, the direction I took the podcast, and 660 00:38:03.199 --> 00:38:09.320 the thing that just occupies my mind is well, you know, 661 00:38:09.360 --> 00:38:12.719 I think about, like one of the questions that is 662 00:38:12.840 --> 00:38:15.679 very strange to people like me, to people like you, 663 00:38:15.760 --> 00:38:19.360 to people out there listening, anybody out there listening, is 664 00:38:19.400 --> 00:38:24.440 how somebody like Jeffrey Epstein could have operated out in 665 00:38:24.480 --> 00:38:28.400 the open for as long as he did in these circles. 666 00:38:28.440 --> 00:38:31.199 I mean, you got to remember his private airplane was 667 00:38:31.239 --> 00:38:33.960 called the Lolita Express, and he didn't give it that 668 00:38:34.079 --> 00:38:37.400 name like other people gave it that name, you know, 669 00:38:37.480 --> 00:38:40.079 Lolita for everybody who hasn't read it. And I don't 670 00:38:40.079 --> 00:38:42.639 really recommend it, but this is what literary people consider 671 00:38:42.760 --> 00:38:45.360 high art. It's a nineteen fifty five novel based on 672 00:38:46.400 --> 00:38:49.079 an event that happened in nineteen forty eight where this man, 673 00:38:49.199 --> 00:38:52.400 this middle aged man, kidnapped this twelve year old girl, 674 00:38:52.880 --> 00:38:55.360 kept her for about two years on this cross country 675 00:38:55.679 --> 00:38:57.679 trip and just raped her all the time. And that's 676 00:38:57.679 --> 00:38:59.800 what this book is about, and it portrays it in 677 00:38:59.840 --> 00:39:02.920 a way that, like, you know, maybe they're in love. 678 00:39:02.960 --> 00:39:06.000 It's really it's really sick. I don't want the book. 679 00:39:06.400 --> 00:39:08.280 You know. What's interesting is the book did come out 680 00:39:08.280 --> 00:39:13.360 in nineteen fifty five, but Nabokov, the author, some of 681 00:39:13.400 --> 00:39:16.159 his early writings are some of the books that the 682 00:39:16.280 --> 00:39:17.719 National Socialists burned. 683 00:39:18.679 --> 00:39:22.119 Yeah, yeah, that's not surprising. That's not surprising at all. 684 00:39:22.320 --> 00:39:24.599 You're not supposed to mention which books they were burning. 685 00:39:24.679 --> 00:39:26.239 Come on, yeah, you know better than that. 686 00:39:27.519 --> 00:39:31.760 I did a whole episode on that, and then I 687 00:39:31.800 --> 00:39:36.360 guess suspended from YouTube for questioning the the election results 688 00:39:37.079 --> 00:39:39.800 from two years ago. 689 00:39:41.039 --> 00:39:46.159 Yeah, and that's so. You know, so again, coming back 690 00:39:46.159 --> 00:39:48.639 to that question, how is it that if people knew 691 00:39:48.639 --> 00:39:52.159 what Jeffrey Epstein was up to, and they did. People 692 00:39:52.199 --> 00:39:54.840 knew exactly what he was up to. There's no question 693 00:39:54.920 --> 00:39:57.960 about that. I mean, people knew that he had been 694 00:39:58.000 --> 00:40:02.239 convicted for child prostitution, whatever that means. Back in the 695 00:40:02.239 --> 00:40:04.719 early two thousands or mid two thousands. Everybody knew that. 696 00:40:04.760 --> 00:40:07.639 Everybody who knew who Jeffrey Epstein was knew that. Put 697 00:40:07.679 --> 00:40:11.760 it that way. You know, they gave the other people 698 00:40:11.880 --> 00:40:15.199 nicknamed his airplane the Lolita Express. They knew what was 699 00:40:15.239 --> 00:40:17.480 going on on those airplanes, and so how is it 700 00:40:17.559 --> 00:40:21.320 possible that this guy could just operate like that, especially 701 00:40:21.360 --> 00:40:24.679 in a place like Washington, where you know, people are 702 00:40:24.719 --> 00:40:27.639 looking for anything they can find to smear somebody and 703 00:40:27.679 --> 00:40:30.440 destroy their career. If there's any little thing they can 704 00:40:30.440 --> 00:40:34.159 take out of context, they'll do it. But nobody seems 705 00:40:34.159 --> 00:40:36.519 to be interested in saying, hey, why does Tony Podesta 706 00:40:36.840 --> 00:40:39.960 have pictures of dead kids on his walls by artists 707 00:40:40.000 --> 00:40:43.719 who specialize in pedophile art. It just doesn't get mentioned. 708 00:40:43.719 --> 00:40:46.239 And in fact, he feels comfortable enough with all of 709 00:40:46.280 --> 00:40:48.480 that that he leaves it up when people come over 710 00:40:48.519 --> 00:40:52.239 for parties, He leaves it up when photographers show up 711 00:40:52.239 --> 00:40:55.519 from a magazine to profile his house, because this is 712 00:40:55.599 --> 00:40:59.840 normal in this place, Like this is what's normal. And 713 00:41:00.119 --> 00:41:02.079 so we ask, how is it that Jeffrey Epstein could 714 00:41:02.079 --> 00:41:04.639 operate out in the open. It's because we're thinking like 715 00:41:04.719 --> 00:41:07.920 normal people, you know, we're thinking that if I walk 716 00:41:07.960 --> 00:41:10.880 onto a dude's private plane and there are a half 717 00:41:11.000 --> 00:41:14.599 dozen teenage girls that are not related to him running 718 00:41:14.639 --> 00:41:16.840 around the plane, and he asked me if I want 719 00:41:16.880 --> 00:41:20.639 to get a massage from one of them, Like I'm 720 00:41:20.719 --> 00:41:23.119 certainly leaving the plane. The only question is whether I 721 00:41:23.119 --> 00:41:25.199 would get violent before I did that, And I think 722 00:41:25.199 --> 00:41:28.760 that's how most people would respond. And so they think, 723 00:41:28.800 --> 00:41:30.320 how is it that he could have operated out in 724 00:41:30.360 --> 00:41:31.960 the open like this, Well, if you just came from 725 00:41:32.079 --> 00:41:34.679 a party at Tony Podesta's house where he's showing off 726 00:41:34.719 --> 00:41:38.599 his Kim Noble drawings, and you know, after that, you 727 00:41:38.639 --> 00:41:41.079 went and had dinner at a Marina Brahmovic thing with 728 00:41:41.159 --> 00:41:44.159 pig's blood written all over the walls and everything like that, 729 00:41:45.239 --> 00:41:47.239 then you show up to Jeffrey Epstein's plane and it's 730 00:41:47.280 --> 00:41:50.199 not that weird, you know, it's pretty just par for 731 00:41:50.280 --> 00:41:55.360 the course basically among these degenerates. And so if these 732 00:41:55.360 --> 00:41:57.679 were people who you know, it was a guy who 733 00:41:57.719 --> 00:42:01.239 lived down the block, it was just somebody who, you know, 734 00:42:01.360 --> 00:42:03.800 he's into weird stuff. You know, some people like to 735 00:42:03.880 --> 00:42:06.920 listen to heavy metal music about the Devil too. Does 736 00:42:06.920 --> 00:42:08.280 that make him devil worshipers? 737 00:42:08.360 --> 00:42:08.440 Know? 738 00:42:09.760 --> 00:42:11.559 But if this was a guy down the block, first 739 00:42:11.599 --> 00:42:13.280 of all, I don't think anybody would let their kids 740 00:42:13.320 --> 00:42:19.280 hang out at that house, but maybe, you know, whatever, 741 00:42:19.320 --> 00:42:22.119 we interpret the First Amendment pretty broadly when it comes 742 00:42:22.159 --> 00:42:27.960 to filth in America. But and so whatever, maybe the 743 00:42:28.000 --> 00:42:30.400 cop shouldn't be sent to arrest him. Don't put me 744 00:42:30.440 --> 00:42:32.280 in charge if you don't want that to happen. But 745 00:42:32.440 --> 00:42:37.800 in the current setup, maybe that shouldn't be the case. Well, 746 00:42:37.800 --> 00:42:40.480 we're talking about people who are right at the center 747 00:42:40.679 --> 00:42:45.360 of the American power structure, and we are completely within 748 00:42:45.360 --> 00:42:48.280 our rights to demand to know. I mean, you would 749 00:42:48.280 --> 00:42:51.320 get kicked off of a local school board for having 750 00:42:51.360 --> 00:42:55.159 pictures of dead abused kids on your wall. And yet 751 00:42:55.199 --> 00:42:57.760 these people are at the center of the Washington power structure. 752 00:42:58.159 --> 00:43:02.000 And it's you know, so you ask yourself, like, what 753 00:43:02.159 --> 00:43:04.159 is it that's going on there that this stuff could 754 00:43:04.199 --> 00:43:06.320 be could be accepted the way it is. You remember 755 00:43:06.360 --> 00:43:08.119 what happened. I don't know all the details on this. 756 00:43:08.199 --> 00:43:10.760 I don't keep up with like just day to day 757 00:43:10.760 --> 00:43:14.480 politics that much, but I noticed that when that guy, 758 00:43:14.519 --> 00:43:18.880 Madison Cawthorn came out and said that he'd been offered 759 00:43:18.920 --> 00:43:21.199 to you know, since he became a congressman, people had 760 00:43:21.239 --> 00:43:24.519 come to him and invited him to orgies and you know, 761 00:43:24.559 --> 00:43:27.519 cocaine parties with orgies and everything. And man, they got 762 00:43:27.599 --> 00:43:30.480 rid of him quick inn They that took no time 763 00:43:30.519 --> 00:43:31.760 at all, they got rid of him. 764 00:43:31.920 --> 00:43:35.960 Well, let me let me bring this up. The former 765 00:43:36.320 --> 00:43:40.679 Republican Speaker of the House, Dennis Hastert went to jail 766 00:43:41.239 --> 00:43:47.360 for pedophilia. Yeah, and the Democrats don't bring that up 767 00:43:47.400 --> 00:43:48.000 every day? 768 00:43:48.360 --> 00:43:52.199 Isn't that weird? Yeah, like they still hammer the Republicans 769 00:43:52.239 --> 00:43:55.800 over Richard Nixon, but that yeah, that's fine. 770 00:43:56.840 --> 00:44:01.360 But you know, I said that to somebody on on 771 00:44:01.400 --> 00:44:05.039 Twitter who was like, you know, oh, Matt Gates and underage, 772 00:44:05.559 --> 00:44:07.320 you know, because you know, you're just playing they're playing 773 00:44:07.400 --> 00:44:10.440 left right politics. I'm like, do you find it weird 774 00:44:10.519 --> 00:44:16.159 that the former House speaker, when the Republican House speaker 775 00:44:16.239 --> 00:44:19.360 went to jail for pedophilia, and Democrats don't bring it up, 776 00:44:19.360 --> 00:44:21.199 and she will, And this person's like, well I bring 777 00:44:21.239 --> 00:44:24.920 it up. I'm like, how come your politicians, you like, 778 00:44:25.079 --> 00:44:29.480 don't mention it at every turn? Why isn't that a 779 00:44:29.559 --> 00:44:31.000 major talking point? 780 00:44:32.719 --> 00:44:36.760 Yeah? Why why don't the major you know, every time 781 00:44:37.159 --> 00:44:42.000 anybody posts anything about the Epstein story. You know, my 782 00:44:42.079 --> 00:44:44.239 podcast that I put out on that story. I mean, 783 00:44:44.559 --> 00:44:47.719 I don't know if they're like my top downloaded podcast, 784 00:44:47.760 --> 00:44:50.519 but they're definitely up there. Everything that that that gets 785 00:44:50.519 --> 00:44:53.480 put out, there goes viral. I mean, you have that uh, 786 00:44:53.719 --> 00:44:58.920 that leaked video from ABC News that James what's his 787 00:44:59.000 --> 00:45:02.360 name put out the the guy does like the hidden 788 00:45:02.360 --> 00:45:06.280 camera videos of all the James' James O'Keeffe. You had 789 00:45:06.320 --> 00:45:10.320 that video that he got a hold of and that 790 00:45:10.320 --> 00:45:12.920 thing went crazy viral. Everybody wanted to see it, Everybody 791 00:45:13.000 --> 00:45:15.039 wanted to hear it. And so you would think, you know, 792 00:45:15.039 --> 00:45:18.519 because they say that that the media is run by 793 00:45:18.599 --> 00:45:20.719 you know, the rule is like if it bleeds, it leads, right, 794 00:45:20.760 --> 00:45:24.480 So if it's just sensational and whatever gets eyeballs, and 795 00:45:24.559 --> 00:45:27.599 that's what they'll go after. If that were true, every 796 00:45:27.639 --> 00:45:30.840 single media organization would have an entire department devoted to 797 00:45:30.880 --> 00:45:33.440 Jeffrey Epstein because people all want to know about that, 798 00:45:33.760 --> 00:45:36.400 and they refuse to address it for probably the same 799 00:45:36.440 --> 00:45:38.920 reason that people just avoid and stay away from the 800 00:45:38.960 --> 00:45:42.320 Denny Hastard story. Denny Hasterrick, by the way, was at 801 00:45:42.440 --> 00:45:47.800 a a kid's summer camp with John Podesta back in 802 00:45:47.960 --> 00:45:50.320 sixty seven or sixty eight, I think it was in 803 00:45:50.559 --> 00:45:53.039 It was in Japan. It's kind of a weird thing. 804 00:45:53.039 --> 00:45:54.960 I don't I don't know if that's a you know, 805 00:45:55.000 --> 00:45:59.840 we're bringing up but that is interesting and so yeah, 806 00:45:59.880 --> 00:46:03.079 I mean you you know, you start to ask what 807 00:46:03.199 --> 00:46:05.480 these people are, just just what it is they're doing 808 00:46:05.480 --> 00:46:08.400 when they're not on camera, and and who these people 809 00:46:08.440 --> 00:46:11.880 really are. And you know, there was a there was 810 00:46:11.920 --> 00:46:17.000 a a New York Times. Well a lot of people 811 00:46:17.000 --> 00:46:19.360 wrote about it, but there was this there was this 812 00:46:19.480 --> 00:46:24.079 French novelist back in maybe twenty fourteen or twenty fifteen 813 00:46:24.159 --> 00:46:29.599 named Gabriel matts Neff who you wrote novels that were 814 00:46:29.639 --> 00:46:33.199 about pedophilia. And they were not about like a cop 815 00:46:33.199 --> 00:46:36.159 who's chasing down a pedophile. They were, you know, a 816 00:46:36.199 --> 00:46:39.639 book written by a pedophile. It turns out based on 817 00:46:39.679 --> 00:46:42.280 his own experiences for other people who found that kind 818 00:46:42.280 --> 00:46:46.039 of stuff interesting, Well, Matt's Neff was not. He was 819 00:46:46.039 --> 00:46:47.840 a this is a this guy's a big deal. I mean, 820 00:46:47.840 --> 00:46:49.840 he had a he had a column in a major 821 00:46:49.920 --> 00:46:55.679 French newspaper or magazine. Rather, he was friends with, you know, 822 00:46:55.760 --> 00:46:58.880 Francois Holan, a lot of high up French people. Was 823 00:46:58.880 --> 00:47:01.760 a French high society, very very big guy over there. 824 00:47:01.960 --> 00:47:05.159 And finally he gets busted for being a pedophile. His 825 00:47:05.519 --> 00:47:08.119 entire life, you know, his first book that he ever 826 00:47:08.119 --> 00:47:10.320 wrote was called Under sixteen years Old and it was 827 00:47:10.360 --> 00:47:12.519 about pedophilia, right, So it was all out in the open, 828 00:47:12.519 --> 00:47:14.559 and everybody kind of knew about this. Well, finally they 829 00:47:14.719 --> 00:47:17.480 arrested him, and there was this New York Times article 830 00:47:17.559 --> 00:47:20.320 kind of about the whole situation, and it said something 831 00:47:20.440 --> 00:47:24.119 very very very interesting that I think maybe shot shines 832 00:47:24.199 --> 00:47:27.480 a fairmental light on a lot of this stuff. It 833 00:47:27.599 --> 00:47:33.719 said that, you know, in France there's always been this 834 00:47:33.840 --> 00:47:39.440 tension between its professed egalitarianism and the elitism of the 835 00:47:39.480 --> 00:47:44.000 people on top, and that the elites in France have 836 00:47:44.880 --> 00:47:50.480 for many years distinguished themselves from ordinary people through a 837 00:47:50.480 --> 00:47:54.679 different code of morality that was it was a status thing, 838 00:47:54.760 --> 00:47:56.360 that it was one of the ways that you know, 839 00:47:56.400 --> 00:47:58.679 that they mark themselves off, that they're above all of 840 00:47:58.760 --> 00:48:01.159 you know, a beyond good and evil, above all of 841 00:48:01.280 --> 00:48:05.880 all of those provincial kind of considerations. And I think 842 00:48:05.960 --> 00:48:09.199 that that probably shehins a lot of light on you know, 843 00:48:09.280 --> 00:48:11.800 why it is that could just think about it, like, 844 00:48:11.800 --> 00:48:14.519 how many of these people are there that how many 845 00:48:14.599 --> 00:48:18.639 people out there would think it's normal, would or would 846 00:48:18.719 --> 00:48:22.599 want a picture of a painting of dead kids lying 847 00:48:22.639 --> 00:48:26.079 on the bottom of a swimming pool, prominently featured, very 848 00:48:26.119 --> 00:48:28.880 expensive piece of art, like prominently featured in their living room. 849 00:48:29.440 --> 00:48:33.719 And the answer is very very few, right, it's it's 850 00:48:34.280 --> 00:48:37.199 And yet when you go to Washington, d C. When 851 00:48:37.239 --> 00:48:39.639 you go to a lot of these circles, there doesn't 852 00:48:39.679 --> 00:48:42.239 seem to be a very few of these people. They 853 00:48:42.280 --> 00:48:44.960 seem to be very very They seemed to be all 854 00:48:45.000 --> 00:48:45.639 over the place. 855 00:48:47.000 --> 00:48:53.079 Think about Jimmy Seville in England. Everyone knew everybody. I 856 00:48:53.079 --> 00:48:56.880 think there's an interview of John Leiben in like nineteen 857 00:48:56.960 --> 00:49:01.039 seventy seven or he mentioned he says something, yeah, I 858 00:49:01.039 --> 00:49:05.079 mean that's and it's like people knew that this was There. 859 00:49:05.039 --> 00:49:08.519 Was a there was a police officer, a British police officer, 860 00:49:08.559 --> 00:49:11.840 who talked about something that happened to him back in 861 00:49:12.239 --> 00:49:17.000 Jimmy Savill's heyday, where he came upon Jimmy Saville in 862 00:49:17.039 --> 00:49:20.719 a car with a fifteen year old girl and he 863 00:49:20.880 --> 00:49:23.840 just let it slide, He let it pass, and you know, 864 00:49:23.880 --> 00:49:25.920 the guy says, basically, it's like, look, I know this 865 00:49:26.000 --> 00:49:28.800 sounds absolutely horrible and this is not going to please 866 00:49:28.840 --> 00:49:32.239 anybody today, but this was normal back then, Like this 867 00:49:32.440 --> 00:49:36.519 was normal among like these type of people there was. 868 00:49:36.360 --> 00:49:39.119 It was another BBC presenter that wrote an article during 869 00:49:39.119 --> 00:49:41.360 the Me Too stuff where he said that you know, 870 00:49:41.400 --> 00:49:44.039 these days he he and a lot of people that 871 00:49:44.119 --> 00:49:48.840 he knows lose sleep at night and have nightmares that 872 00:49:48.920 --> 00:49:50.760 one day the cops are going to knock on their 873 00:49:50.800 --> 00:49:52.480 door for a lot of the things that they were 874 00:49:52.519 --> 00:49:55.119 up to back in the sixties and seventies that you know, 875 00:49:55.239 --> 00:49:57.960 especially that that period after the Cultural Revolution in the 876 00:49:57.960 --> 00:50:02.519 sixties and after the Hill, but before AIDS. You know, 877 00:50:02.800 --> 00:50:09.000 you hear about it, whether it's music bands, Hollywood, political circles, TV. 878 00:50:09.840 --> 00:50:13.360 These people were out of control in the nineteen seventies. 879 00:50:13.400 --> 00:50:15.760 I mean it's you hear about bands like led Zepp 880 00:50:15.760 --> 00:50:17.239 and a lot of a lot of bands, a lot 881 00:50:17.239 --> 00:50:20.119 of Hollywood parties where it was just totally normal to 882 00:50:20.199 --> 00:50:23.360 have teenage girls and teenage boys running around. I mean 883 00:50:23.679 --> 00:50:26.199 it's even like, you know, even. 884 00:50:25.960 --> 00:50:31.519 Even Tyler, Stephen Tyler convinced some family, a couple to 885 00:50:31.840 --> 00:50:35.639 like take his what their thirteen fourteen year old daughter 886 00:50:36.159 --> 00:50:39.519 on tour with him and he ended up yeah, like 887 00:50:39.920 --> 00:50:44.719 and yeah. The police wrote the song have you ever 888 00:50:44.800 --> 00:50:47.400 Have you ever listened to the lyrics of don't don't 889 00:50:47.440 --> 00:50:48.320 stand so close to me. 890 00:50:48.320 --> 00:50:51.519 By the police. No, maybe I should. 891 00:50:51.719 --> 00:50:55.000 Yeah, yeah, listen to that. I sang it to I 892 00:50:55.039 --> 00:50:57.000 sang it to someone once and I was and I 893 00:50:57.039 --> 00:50:58.679 was like, have you ever listened to these lyrics? And 894 00:50:58.719 --> 00:51:02.960 they're just like, I mean, sting mentions Nabokov in it. 895 00:51:03.800 --> 00:51:04.239 It's like. 896 00:51:06.079 --> 00:51:08.400 And so and so. You know, you're talking about a 897 00:51:08.400 --> 00:51:11.320 class of people for whom this kind of thing is 898 00:51:11.360 --> 00:51:17.559 considered normal, you know, normal enough that nobody, you know, 899 00:51:17.880 --> 00:51:20.440 nobody in Washington, d C. The most cutthroat city in 900 00:51:20.440 --> 00:51:23.280 the entire country, bothers to take a shot at Tony 901 00:51:23.320 --> 00:51:26.199 Podesto over having this stuff. It's just it's just totally normal. 902 00:51:26.559 --> 00:51:29.079 And then when you couple in the fact that you 903 00:51:29.119 --> 00:51:31.559 can't get the media to talk about any of I 904 00:51:31.559 --> 00:51:34.679 mean even just again the very obvious questions that really 905 00:51:34.719 --> 00:51:37.159 need to be answered. Why did Alex Acosta say, Jeffrey 906 00:51:37.159 --> 00:51:41.559 Epstein belong to intelligence? We just we by any standard 907 00:51:42.000 --> 00:51:47.719 of national security classification. I don't care what we Everybody 908 00:51:47.760 --> 00:51:50.480 wants and deserves an answer to that question. At least, 909 00:51:50.599 --> 00:51:54.840 you can't even get the question asked, and you know, 910 00:51:55.199 --> 00:52:01.880 it just, uh, it leaves room for you know, the 911 00:52:02.000 --> 00:52:05.639 kind of conspiracy theories that would lead to a guy 912 00:52:05.760 --> 00:52:07.960 grabbing a gun and going down to a pizza place 913 00:52:08.000 --> 00:52:11.119 and Washington, d C. Because when they're when when you 914 00:52:11.159 --> 00:52:14.840 see all of this stuff and you say, like, clearly 915 00:52:14.880 --> 00:52:20.360 there's something strange going on in all this like but 916 00:52:20.559 --> 00:52:22.480 and so you say, well, okay, I'll turn on the 917 00:52:22.519 --> 00:52:24.599 news and they'll tell me, like you know, they'll ask 918 00:52:24.599 --> 00:52:26.159 the questions about it. What I mean, you find that 919 00:52:26.280 --> 00:52:29.280 not only is that not happening, but anybody who mentions it, 920 00:52:30.119 --> 00:52:31.599 you know, it's died down a little bit now. But 921 00:52:31.639 --> 00:52:33.920 if you mention this stuff back, you know, when Ben 922 00:52:34.000 --> 00:52:36.559 Swann got kicked off, you would get kicked off of 923 00:52:36.639 --> 00:52:39.400 like all your platforms for bringing this stuff up, for 924 00:52:39.480 --> 00:52:43.039 asking obvious questions that any normal person would want answered 925 00:52:43.440 --> 00:52:45.719 of people who are at the center of the American 926 00:52:45.719 --> 00:52:49.000 power structure. And so you know that you're just you're 927 00:52:49.000 --> 00:52:54.000 begging for uh, you know, people to draw their own 928 00:52:54.000 --> 00:52:56.679 conclusions and take matters into their own hands. When that's 929 00:52:56.719 --> 00:52:59.639 the situation. I mean, these people, for a million different reasons, 930 00:53:00.159 --> 00:53:06.039 belong nowhere near power. But you know, I think this 931 00:53:06.199 --> 00:53:08.920 is one of the angles that you can really you 932 00:53:08.920 --> 00:53:10.880 can take this to anybody. You can take this to 933 00:53:10.960 --> 00:53:15.159 a Democrat mom, you know, a Democrat soccer mom, and 934 00:53:15.679 --> 00:53:17.840 show her a lot of this stuff and she will 935 00:53:17.840 --> 00:53:20.960 agree with you that these people belong nowhere near the 936 00:53:21.039 --> 00:53:24.159 decision making process on whether or not we should be 937 00:53:24.239 --> 00:53:28.239 doing sex change surgeries on children. You know, like, if 938 00:53:28.280 --> 00:53:32.559 you have pictures of dead, tied up, abused eight year 939 00:53:32.559 --> 00:53:36.000 olds on your wall, you shouldn't be helping make decisions 940 00:53:36.039 --> 00:53:37.639 as to whether eight year olds should be able to 941 00:53:37.639 --> 00:53:40.400 get gender reassignment surgeries. Most people could agree with that. 942 00:53:40.719 --> 00:53:44.599 Well, think about how obsessed with what these quote unquote 943 00:53:44.639 --> 00:53:48.480 elites are with Ukraine, And all you have to do 944 00:53:48.599 --> 00:53:51.559 is go searching back a few years and you'll find 945 00:53:51.719 --> 00:53:56.239 articles about how Ukraine is the actual not human trafficking 946 00:53:56.400 --> 00:53:59.159 like they talk about in this country. If someone becomes 947 00:53:59.199 --> 00:54:03.639 a prostituto, that's human trafficking. No, like literally Ukrainian girls 948 00:54:03.679 --> 00:54:07.760 going to Kiev, going to go into big cities and 949 00:54:07.800 --> 00:54:12.159 being kidnapped and taken to other countries to be sex slaves. 950 00:54:12.679 --> 00:54:15.480 Ukraine is like the center of that. I mean, I 951 00:54:15.519 --> 00:54:18.760 have one of my one of my Patroon supporters said, 952 00:54:19.119 --> 00:54:22.440 Ukraine it almost seems like it's West World for Western elites, 953 00:54:23.039 --> 00:54:25.480 you know, or why why do they want to spend 954 00:54:25.519 --> 00:54:26.719 so much time over there? 955 00:54:26.960 --> 00:54:27.199 Yeah? 956 00:54:27.400 --> 00:54:27.599 Why? 957 00:54:27.760 --> 00:54:30.960 You know, Well, that's what Russia was supposed to be too, 958 00:54:31.360 --> 00:54:34.639 and that's what it was in the nineties. You know, Ukraine. 959 00:54:35.079 --> 00:54:39.079 Ukraine is basically what Russia would have been if Putin 960 00:54:39.119 --> 00:54:43.719 had never come along and regulated the the the oligarchs 961 00:54:43.880 --> 00:54:46.880 and sent them packing to London, New York and Tel Aviv. 962 00:54:47.119 --> 00:54:50.360 You know, there's that famous story and right after Putin 963 00:54:50.400 --> 00:54:53.000 took power where he ordered a bunch of the most 964 00:54:53.000 --> 00:54:56.320 powerful oligarchs all out to this datcha and he sits 965 00:54:56.400 --> 00:54:58.360 him down at a table. There's guys with guns around 966 00:54:58.440 --> 00:55:01.239 and everything. He's got the full guy father likes set up, 967 00:55:01.840 --> 00:55:04.079 and he brings them all in, sits them around the table, 968 00:55:04.679 --> 00:55:07.360 and he just informs them, Look, you guys can stay billionaires, 969 00:55:07.400 --> 00:55:10.159 you can stay rich. Like I'm not going to interfere 970 00:55:10.159 --> 00:55:12.519 with that, but you guys are done having anything to 971 00:55:12.519 --> 00:55:14.880 do with the Russian state. The Russian state is back 972 00:55:14.880 --> 00:55:17.760 and it's going to be reasserting its prerogatives. Those of 973 00:55:17.760 --> 00:55:19.519 you who can get on board with that, great. If 974 00:55:19.519 --> 00:55:22.199 you can't, then you and I are going to have problems, 975 00:55:22.360 --> 00:55:26.119 and some of them could, you know, guys like Oleg Deripaska, 976 00:55:26.159 --> 00:55:29.320 a lot of the Russian ethnic Russian oligarchs, they were 977 00:55:29.440 --> 00:55:32.360 kind of on board with that because you know, they 978 00:55:32.719 --> 00:55:35.360 these were guys too. It's natural to have a certain 979 00:55:35.360 --> 00:55:37.280 amount of love for your country. They didn't like exactly 980 00:55:37.320 --> 00:55:39.320 what was going on, and so they were happy to 981 00:55:39.320 --> 00:55:42.480 get on board with that. You know, some of them 982 00:55:42.960 --> 00:55:47.079 fled to New York, London and Tel Aviv with hundreds 983 00:55:47.119 --> 00:55:50.920 of billions of dollars that they've since used buying off 984 00:55:51.000 --> 00:55:55.119 politicians and paying for media time and paying off think 985 00:55:55.159 --> 00:55:58.320 tanks to make sure that the Anglo sphere stays in 986 00:55:58.360 --> 00:56:02.320 a permanent gehat with Russia. And you know, they're very disappointed. 987 00:56:02.440 --> 00:56:03.960 They thought that they were going to be able to 988 00:56:04.000 --> 00:56:06.559 loot that whole country forever, and they were able to 989 00:56:06.559 --> 00:56:09.960 do it throughout the entire nineteen nineties and Putin you know, 990 00:56:10.039 --> 00:56:11.480 I mean people, you don't have to be a Putin 991 00:56:11.559 --> 00:56:13.679 lover or whatever. I mean. You know, whether or not 992 00:56:13.719 --> 00:56:15.599 I would want to live in a country that's governed 993 00:56:15.639 --> 00:56:18.360 the way Russia's governed is really beside the point, because 994 00:56:18.400 --> 00:56:21.440 I'm not coming from a country that was in the 995 00:56:21.480 --> 00:56:25.079 state Russia was in in the nineteen nineties. And you know, 996 00:56:25.119 --> 00:56:26.519 if you think that you're going to go from that 997 00:56:26.800 --> 00:56:30.360 to Bernie Sanders runs for office in Russia and then 998 00:56:30.440 --> 00:56:32.960 turns it into Vermont like from what it was in 999 00:56:32.960 --> 00:56:35.800 the nineties, that's just not how it works. And I mean, 1000 00:56:35.840 --> 00:56:39.239 you had you had oligarchs that controlled major chunks of 1001 00:56:39.280 --> 00:56:41.920 the country, including the natural resources, and it including the 1002 00:56:41.960 --> 00:56:45.079 local governments that refused to send taxes to the central government, 1003 00:56:45.480 --> 00:56:49.440 who had private military forces that were better equipped and 1004 00:56:49.519 --> 00:56:53.360 better paid than the Russian army. And so you know, 1005 00:56:53.400 --> 00:56:55.400 if you were to say, how is the Russian state 1006 00:56:55.480 --> 00:56:58.920 ever going to recollect itself and just re establish itself 1007 00:56:59.000 --> 00:57:01.320 as as a going concer, you said, well, there's going 1008 00:57:01.400 --> 00:57:03.760 to be a massive civil war first of all, and 1009 00:57:03.800 --> 00:57:05.239 then someone's going to come out on top of that. 1010 00:57:05.280 --> 00:57:08.599 Didn't happen. And that's amazing that that did not happen, 1011 00:57:08.639 --> 00:57:11.960 given where they were coming from. And you know, I 1012 00:57:12.000 --> 00:57:15.519 don't think again, people can like or dislike Putin for 1013 00:57:15.559 --> 00:57:18.599 a million different reasons, but there's very few people who 1014 00:57:18.599 --> 00:57:20.599 could have pulled that off. And I think the Russians 1015 00:57:20.639 --> 00:57:22.199 know that, and that's why he's so popular. 1016 00:57:23.639 --> 00:57:25.960 Well, yeah, well you don't want to talk about that. 1017 00:57:26.039 --> 00:57:30.079 I mean, I'm almost convincing if you say anything positive 1018 00:57:30.119 --> 00:57:32.079 about Putin now you can get videos pulled. 1019 00:57:32.920 --> 00:57:35.159 Yes, I think so too, And I think honestly, like 1020 00:57:35.239 --> 00:57:38.639 I think it if this war really escalates, like if 1021 00:57:38.679 --> 00:57:41.400 it does get to a point where you know, a 1022 00:57:41.440 --> 00:57:43.760 tactical nuke is user, if it just if it continues 1023 00:57:43.800 --> 00:57:45.840 to grow, if we get I think we'll be in 1024 00:57:45.920 --> 00:57:50.480 full like Woodrow Wilson espionageack territory. And I'm very cognizant, 1025 00:57:50.559 --> 00:57:53.559 cognizant of that whenever I criticize our policy on the war. 1026 00:57:54.519 --> 00:57:56.119 But whatever, you know, I. 1027 00:57:56.400 --> 00:57:59.480 Just I can't let's let's not discount the fact that 1028 00:57:59.480 --> 00:58:02.119 if a new if a tactical nuke goes off in 1029 00:58:02.480 --> 00:58:05.719 Ukraine somewhere that I mean, there's a country in the 1030 00:58:05.719 --> 00:58:08.599 world that has nukes that but they don't have nukes. 1031 00:58:08.599 --> 00:58:11.559 We're not allowed to talk about their nukes. And does 1032 00:58:11.559 --> 00:58:15.119 anybody keeping counts of how many nukes they have? Very 1033 00:58:15.119 --> 00:58:18.039 easy for one to just disappear, and you have a 1034 00:58:18.119 --> 00:58:21.599 nice false flag that would you put the United States 1035 00:58:21.599 --> 00:58:23.199 into a hot war with Russia. 1036 00:58:23.599 --> 00:58:25.960 Yeah, you know, I was in I was at a 1037 00:58:26.000 --> 00:58:28.360 conference a couple of weeks ago in Austin, and there 1038 00:58:28.360 --> 00:58:31.920 were a whole bunch of different people. They are giving 1039 00:58:31.960 --> 00:58:34.440 presentations and on panels. I was on a panel and 1040 00:58:34.480 --> 00:58:37.320 one of the people who was there was Eric Prince. 1041 00:58:38.159 --> 00:58:40.719 That's another thing I didn't mention is back in twenty sixteen, 1042 00:58:40.840 --> 00:58:43.760 Eric Prince gave an interview to Breitbart, I think it 1043 00:58:43.920 --> 00:58:47.920 was a radio interview, and he said that he had 1044 00:58:47.960 --> 00:58:52.159 sources at Won Police Plaza in New York, NYPD headquarters, 1045 00:58:53.239 --> 00:58:55.239 high well placed sources. And I believe, I mean, he 1046 00:58:55.280 --> 00:58:56.960 seems like the kind of guy who probably would have 1047 00:58:57.000 --> 00:59:00.920 those sources who told him that they had gone through 1048 00:59:01.039 --> 00:59:04.440 the fine tooth comb Anthony Wiener's laptop. And again, Anthony 1049 00:59:04.480 --> 00:59:06.880 Wiener wasn't just a prominent congressman. He was married to 1050 00:59:06.960 --> 00:59:11.360 Human Aberdeen, who was Hillary Clinton's good friend. I guess 1051 00:59:11.360 --> 00:59:13.840 we'll just leave it at that. And if they had 1052 00:59:13.840 --> 00:59:15.480 gone through this, this is Eric Prince. This is the 1053 00:59:15.480 --> 00:59:18.559 guy who started Blackwater, a guy who was very very connected. 1054 00:59:18.719 --> 00:59:21.360 I mean, his sister ended up being the education secretary 1055 00:59:21.480 --> 00:59:24.239 for Trump. Right, very connected guy. And he goes on 1056 00:59:24.360 --> 00:59:26.679 the radio and says that he's got high place sources 1057 00:59:26.719 --> 00:59:29.280 at one police plaza. They told him they went through 1058 00:59:29.280 --> 00:59:33.280 the Wiener laptop and they found chaos, They found evidence 1059 00:59:33.559 --> 00:59:38.280 of child sexual abuse, money laundering, all of this stuff, 1060 00:59:38.360 --> 00:59:40.199 and that they had sent it to the FBI. And 1061 00:59:40.239 --> 00:59:43.639 when nothing happened that the NYPD was actually started threatening 1062 00:59:43.679 --> 00:59:45.559 if you don't do something about this, then we're going 1063 00:59:45.599 --> 00:59:49.079 to go public. But then that the Obama administration, the 1064 00:59:49.079 --> 00:59:52.000 Department of Justice started threatening New York that we're going 1065 00:59:52.079 --> 00:59:54.159 to prosecute a bunch of people over the Eric Garner 1066 00:59:54.239 --> 00:59:57.440 case if you do that. And so they didn't. And 1067 00:59:57.519 --> 01:00:01.840 so Eric Prince was giving a was giving a presentation 1068 01:00:02.199 --> 01:00:03.639 or having a talk with a guy, and then there 1069 01:00:03.639 --> 01:00:06.039 were questions and answers afterwards, and you know, I had 1070 01:00:06.079 --> 01:00:08.320 to get in there. So I got up there. I 1071 01:00:08.360 --> 01:00:10.920 was like, I've been waiting six years to get an 1072 01:00:10.920 --> 01:00:12.800 answer to this question. I laid it out to him 1073 01:00:12.840 --> 01:00:15.039 and I said, you know you said, and I quoted 1074 01:00:15.079 --> 01:00:17.239 him exactly what he said. I was like, this is 1075 01:00:17.280 --> 01:00:20.119 in twenty sixteen. I know this a little off topic. 1076 01:00:20.360 --> 01:00:22.199 I don't know about anybody else in here, but I 1077 01:00:22.360 --> 01:00:25.800 for one would love and update on this. And he 1078 01:00:25.840 --> 01:00:29.559 didn't disavowt any of it. He said, he's stayed by 1079 01:00:29.639 --> 01:00:32.039 all of it. He said, it's he said it was true. 1080 01:00:32.800 --> 01:00:34.519 And so then I asked him, I said, and this 1081 01:00:34.559 --> 01:00:36.320 goes to what you were just talking about with Russia 1082 01:00:36.400 --> 01:00:38.960 kind of is how I'm relating this is, I said, Okay, 1083 01:00:39.039 --> 01:00:41.719 So you were just up here though, telling us how, 1084 01:00:42.039 --> 01:00:44.280 you know, we need to stand with the people of Iran, 1085 01:00:44.440 --> 01:00:47.840 we need to you know, back the people like the 1086 01:00:47.880 --> 01:00:52.599 freedom fighters in Ukraine or whatever. It's like, you're just 1087 01:00:52.679 --> 01:00:56.159 you're telling me in my answer here that a bunch 1088 01:00:56.199 --> 01:00:59.039 of the most powerful people up in Washington are either 1089 01:00:59.079 --> 01:01:03.159 complicit or actively participating in child sexual abuse and money 1090 01:01:03.239 --> 01:01:06.840 laundering and all these things, and you want me to 1091 01:01:06.920 --> 01:01:10.960 follow those people into a conflict with Russia or Iran 1092 01:01:11.159 --> 01:01:13.960 or anything. Said, how do you square those two things? 1093 01:01:14.000 --> 01:01:16.239 And he just he kind of just avoided the question, 1094 01:01:16.400 --> 01:01:18.280 you know, I mean he seemed like actually kind of 1095 01:01:18.320 --> 01:01:21.320 a pretty normal, like good head on his shoulders kind 1096 01:01:21.320 --> 01:01:23.719 of guy, but a very boomer mentality in terms of 1097 01:01:23.800 --> 01:01:28.360 like just can't get past you know. Like he told 1098 01:01:28.440 --> 01:01:30.519 us a story like when he was seven years old, 1099 01:01:30.599 --> 01:01:32.440 his family took him. They went to France on a 1100 01:01:32.519 --> 01:01:35.760 vacation and they went to Normandy Beach, and he was 1101 01:01:35.800 --> 01:01:38.880 already like so into World War two and everything that 1102 01:01:39.039 --> 01:01:41.360 he was actually given his family it's seven years old, 1103 01:01:41.440 --> 01:01:43.960 given them a tour of like Normandy Beach, right, So 1104 01:01:44.000 --> 01:01:47.079 he's just one of those guys Team America kind of thing, 1105 01:01:47.119 --> 01:01:50.679 and you understand it. But I think even I think 1106 01:01:50.719 --> 01:01:53.239 people like him are even having a little bit of 1107 01:01:53.280 --> 01:01:56.920 trouble with the cognitive dissonance there because I'm not following 1108 01:01:56.960 --> 01:02:01.280 those people anywhere, I mean, putting all of this moral 1109 01:02:01.320 --> 01:02:03.960 stuff aside. I mean, it just blows me away that 1110 01:02:04.039 --> 01:02:07.440 people don't seem to remember that these the people who 1111 01:02:07.440 --> 01:02:11.079 are who are managing this conflict with Russia are the 1112 01:02:11.119 --> 01:02:14.480 same people who manage the Afghanistan withdrawal, like the exact 1113 01:02:14.519 --> 01:02:17.480 same people, and everybody seems fine with that. I mean, 1114 01:02:17.519 --> 01:02:21.800 it's really like it's late stage civilization like type of behavior. 1115 01:02:22.320 --> 01:02:27.599 They spent five years calling everything fake news, yeah, and 1116 01:02:27.639 --> 01:02:31.719 now when it comes to Ukraine and I think it's 1117 01:02:31.800 --> 01:02:34.519 just one of those things. It's that Boomer truth regime 1118 01:02:34.719 --> 01:02:40.480 bullshit of where well, if we respect the military and 1119 01:02:40.480 --> 01:02:42.400 the people in the military, and the people in the military, 1120 01:02:42.440 --> 01:02:45.000 they you know, they have our best interests at heart, 1121 01:02:45.039 --> 01:02:48.960 will always respect. It's like the people in the Pentagon 1122 01:02:49.039 --> 01:02:51.639 have your best interests or the people of the CIA 1123 01:02:51.760 --> 01:02:56.360 have your the NFA, these people, you know, basically the 1124 01:02:56.480 --> 01:02:59.400 deep state, you know, I mean these are still boomers 1125 01:02:59.400 --> 01:03:02.360 who think that the deep state or Obama holdovers. Yeah, 1126 01:03:02.400 --> 01:03:06.079 you know what I mean. So and then so yeah, 1127 01:03:06.639 --> 01:03:09.719 you celebrate all these people finally realizing that the press, 1128 01:03:10.079 --> 01:03:13.960 you know, isn't biased, it actually has an agenda and 1129 01:03:14.960 --> 01:03:20.159 all of a sudden military something. I Mean, here's something 1130 01:03:20.159 --> 01:03:23.719 that pisses me off the most is it's that it's 1131 01:03:23.719 --> 01:03:26.199 the whole like Whig theory of history thing, how could 1132 01:03:26.280 --> 01:03:30.559 another country being how could another country invade another country? 1133 01:03:31.039 --> 01:03:31.280 What? 1134 01:03:31.960 --> 01:03:35.000 It's like, this has been hacked, This is the default 1135 01:03:35.360 --> 01:03:39.159 of humanity. This is if this isn't happening. 1136 01:03:39.199 --> 01:03:41.360 That's if you just look at American history for the 1137 01:03:41.400 --> 01:03:43.280 last twenty years. Like people will say that with a 1138 01:03:43.280 --> 01:03:46.079 straight face. Obama was like being interviewed back in twenty 1139 01:03:46.119 --> 01:03:49.360 fourteen after the crimea thing, and he just said with 1140 01:03:49.480 --> 01:03:52.599 totally straight face that, like, you know, Russia and Vladimir 1141 01:03:52.599 --> 01:03:54.840 Putin are just going to have to learn that, you know, 1142 01:03:55.239 --> 01:03:58.880 civilized countries don't just go around invading other countries. It's 1143 01:03:58.920 --> 01:04:02.760 like it's crazy, Like it really is. You think you're 1144 01:04:02.760 --> 01:04:07.079 going insane listening to these people sometimes. I mean, you 1145 01:04:07.079 --> 01:04:12.679 know that specifically, the way I asked Prince that question was, 1146 01:04:12.760 --> 01:04:14.639 you know, because he had said a few things he 1147 01:04:14.679 --> 01:04:17.320 seems like sort of maybe like an evangelical, like normy 1148 01:04:17.320 --> 01:04:18.880 Protestant type, but I'm not sure, but that's what he 1149 01:04:18.960 --> 01:04:21.320 kind of sounded like. You mentioned religion, Christianity a few 1150 01:04:21.320 --> 01:04:23.960 times in his talk, and I asked him why we 1151 01:04:24.000 --> 01:04:26.679 should follow the kind of people that he was describing 1152 01:04:26.719 --> 01:04:30.760 in that Breitbart interview into a war against a country 1153 01:04:30.760 --> 01:04:33.480 that is using government funds to build hundreds of Orthodox 1154 01:04:33.559 --> 01:04:35.960 churches all over Russia? Like why should I want to 1155 01:04:36.000 --> 01:04:38.800 go join these people to go fight them? And he 1156 01:04:38.840 --> 01:04:41.920 didn't have a good answer for me. I mean, I 1157 01:04:41.920 --> 01:04:43.639 don't think there is a good answer, you know, Like, 1158 01:04:44.280 --> 01:04:47.920 and I will say this that it is there's been 1159 01:04:47.920 --> 01:04:51.159 a lot of progress made, Like those boomers, a lot 1160 01:04:51.199 --> 01:04:53.079 of them kind of fell in line as far as 1161 01:04:53.639 --> 01:04:58.280 Russia and the Ukraine story and everything, but not quite 1162 01:04:58.679 --> 01:05:01.800 It's a little less than have been say pre Trump. 1163 01:05:02.320 --> 01:05:05.039 Thank God for Tucker Carlson. I mean, I can tell 1164 01:05:05.039 --> 01:05:07.719 you Tucker Carlson is you know, he's a guy who, 1165 01:05:07.840 --> 01:05:11.239 uh like I know him a little bit, and he's 1166 01:05:11.400 --> 01:05:14.920 a guy who is very obviously like he's been just 1167 01:05:15.119 --> 01:05:17.840 up here for so long that he's not quite normal, 1168 01:05:17.960 --> 01:05:20.480 you know, like nobody could really be normal when you're 1169 01:05:20.519 --> 01:05:23.719 that famous for that long. But I can tell you 1170 01:05:23.760 --> 01:05:28.199 that his his politics are legit and his and his 1171 01:05:28.280 --> 01:05:31.920 intentions are legit, like and thank God for him. I mean, 1172 01:05:31.960 --> 01:05:33.559 you know, the people at Fox News, and I've heard 1173 01:05:33.559 --> 01:05:36.000 this from journalists who work with Fox News that the 1174 01:05:36.039 --> 01:05:38.360 management at Fox News they hate Tucker's guts and they 1175 01:05:38.360 --> 01:05:40.800 would get rid of him tomorrow if they could. And 1176 01:05:40.800 --> 01:05:43.440 that to me just is that recommends him better than 1177 01:05:43.480 --> 01:05:45.719 just about anything. So but if it wasn't for him, 1178 01:05:46.280 --> 01:05:47.679 you know, if they had been able to get rid 1179 01:05:47.760 --> 01:05:51.079 of him, and you just had Hannity and whoever they 1180 01:05:51.119 --> 01:05:54.000 replaced him with, then you'd have Fox News and it 1181 01:05:54.000 --> 01:05:57.800 would be just all pro Ukraine kill the Russians. And 1182 01:05:58.360 --> 01:06:01.360 you know, so he provides that little wedge and you know, 1183 01:06:01.440 --> 01:06:03.760 to the extent that I have any audience or influence 1184 01:06:03.800 --> 01:06:05.800 at all, I just decided early on. I'm not going 1185 01:06:05.840 --> 01:06:09.119 along with this. I just I don't care how big 1186 01:06:09.159 --> 01:06:12.639 it gets or what goes on. You know, I wasn't 1187 01:06:12.679 --> 01:06:15.960 going to ever get behind. I mean, you look at 1188 01:06:15.960 --> 01:06:18.440 what happened in Syria. There's a lot of people I 1189 01:06:18.480 --> 01:06:21.440 know that the Syrian War. Because again I came from 1190 01:06:21.559 --> 01:06:24.079 a family of veterans. I served twenty years for the 1191 01:06:24.119 --> 01:06:27.639 Department of Defense. It's in my nature to just be 1192 01:06:28.000 --> 01:06:34.400 reflexively patriotic and reflexively nationalist and all that. And the 1193 01:06:34.440 --> 01:06:37.519 Syrian War, I mean, we just have to be very 1194 01:06:37.559 --> 01:06:40.360 direct about what happened there. I mean, we ginned up 1195 01:06:40.360 --> 01:06:46.920 in international jihad to go destroy a country that all 1196 01:06:46.960 --> 01:06:50.079 of the Christians and other you know, minorities in that 1197 01:06:50.119 --> 01:06:53.360 country were hiding behind Asad's forces. He was the only 1198 01:06:53.440 --> 01:06:57.280 thing protecting them. They were going to get completely wiped 1199 01:06:57.320 --> 01:07:00.800 out by these animals that we sent in there. I mean, 1200 01:07:00.840 --> 01:07:02.840 they did wipe out everybody they could get their hands 1201 01:07:02.840 --> 01:07:05.440 on if they were on the outskirts of Damascus. When 1202 01:07:05.480 --> 01:07:08.119 the Russians and the Iranians showed up, and the Russians 1203 01:07:08.119 --> 01:07:11.440 showed up and stopped the genocide against Christians that we 1204 01:07:11.440 --> 01:07:15.639 were perpetrating, and I know a lot of people that 1205 01:07:15.679 --> 01:07:18.639 the Syrian War it really kind of like broke their faith, 1206 01:07:18.800 --> 01:07:26.079 you know, it made it very hard to you know, Yeah, 1207 01:07:26.199 --> 01:07:29.119 I just I will not support this jihad against Russia. 1208 01:07:29.239 --> 01:07:32.360 I don't care what happens. If they want to, you know, 1209 01:07:32.480 --> 01:07:35.119 throw me in jail, if things get bad enough, then 1210 01:07:35.159 --> 01:07:37.159 they can do it. But I'm not cucking on that issue. 1211 01:07:37.199 --> 01:07:37.880 I just refuse. 1212 01:07:39.119 --> 01:07:43.440 Yeah, and it seems like they want to. I interviewed 1213 01:07:43.480 --> 01:07:47.119 Ben Abelow who he just wrote a really short little 1214 01:07:47.119 --> 01:07:51.199 book twenty thousand words on you know, how the West 1215 01:07:51.280 --> 01:07:56.719 brought war to the Ukraine, and there are quotes in 1216 01:07:56.760 --> 01:07:59.440 there from people in the State Department who are just like, 1217 01:07:59.760 --> 01:08:03.360 we will fight and so the very last Ukrainian it's like. 1218 01:08:05.239 --> 01:08:08.079 Yeah, these people don't care about Ukrainians man, And you 1219 01:08:08.119 --> 01:08:10.760 know what, the Ukrainian government doesn't care about Ukrainians. I mean, 1220 01:08:10.760 --> 01:08:12.880 when you think about the fact, and this is kind 1221 01:08:12.880 --> 01:08:14.840 of one of those areas that you talk about that's 1222 01:08:15.440 --> 01:08:18.880 it's very hard to talk about without getting in trouble 1223 01:08:18.920 --> 01:08:21.840 and without having a bunch of people just take the 1224 01:08:21.880 --> 01:08:25.159 bits that you're giving them and then just running completely 1225 01:08:25.199 --> 01:08:28.159 off the rails with them. But still like I One 1226 01:08:28.199 --> 01:08:29.960 of the things I've been concerned about from the very 1227 01:08:30.000 --> 01:08:36.680 beginning is that you know that that U Zelenski is 1228 01:08:36.720 --> 01:08:41.159 a Jewish guy in Ukraine who just learned the Ukrainian 1229 01:08:41.239 --> 01:08:44.880 language like seven years ago. His Defense Minister is Jewish, 1230 01:08:45.000 --> 01:08:48.439 his Prime Minister is Jewish. His campaign was funded and 1231 01:08:48.520 --> 01:08:53.319 run by a Jewish oligarchy. Whoor Kolamoyski. And uh you know, 1232 01:08:53.960 --> 01:08:57.319 now I'm not I'm not like conspiracy theorizing here. What 1233 01:08:57.640 --> 01:08:59.720 I'm what I'm worried about, and what I still worry 1234 01:08:59.760 --> 01:09:03.960 about is like I don't like Ukraine is not a 1235 01:09:04.479 --> 01:09:07.479 is not known as a traditionally like pro Jewish country, 1236 01:09:07.560 --> 01:09:10.039 you know, obviously like they got a lot of these 1237 01:09:10.119 --> 01:09:13.760 oun like neo Nazi militia types, the Asov guys, and 1238 01:09:13.760 --> 01:09:18.399 always you think that this government under Zelenski, they don't 1239 01:09:18.439 --> 01:09:21.560 care at all about throwing these neo Nazis into the 1240 01:09:21.600 --> 01:09:24.920 fire forever, you know, I mean, I imagine I would 1241 01:09:24.960 --> 01:09:27.520 imagine that probably growing up as a Jewish kid in 1242 01:09:27.840 --> 01:09:31.520 Ukraine probably wasn't always easy for Zelenski. I'm you know, 1243 01:09:31.560 --> 01:09:33.920 I'm sure there were times where that wasn't easy, and 1244 01:09:33.960 --> 01:09:37.199 so I just I worry and wonder that. You know, 1245 01:09:37.279 --> 01:09:39.520 they've got a guy in office over there who will 1246 01:09:39.640 --> 01:09:42.279 just throw the Ukrainians into the fire until they're all 1247 01:09:42.319 --> 01:09:45.199 gone because he just doesn't really care, you know, because 1248 01:09:45.239 --> 01:09:47.479 these people have been hostile to him and hostile to 1249 01:09:47.720 --> 01:09:50.239 his people. And I could be wrong about that. Maybe 1250 01:09:50.279 --> 01:09:53.279 he's become a Ukrainian nationalist like all the Azov guys 1251 01:09:53.319 --> 01:09:58.520 like over the years. But you know, it's it's something 1252 01:09:58.560 --> 01:10:02.279 to be concerned about. I think, what do they call 1253 01:10:02.399 --> 01:10:08.760 Ukraine the bread basket of Europe. Yeah, it's very rich land, 1254 01:10:10.119 --> 01:10:14.520 a lot of resources, a lot more resources than a 1255 01:10:14.600 --> 01:10:18.800 little stretch of land in the Middle East. Yeah, it 1256 01:10:18.800 --> 01:10:21.279 would seem like there would be some some people might 1257 01:10:21.319 --> 01:10:24.920 be interested in taking that land over, and you know, 1258 01:10:25.039 --> 01:10:27.600 because it's a little more rich and probably a little 1259 01:10:27.640 --> 01:10:32.479 more stable than you know where they are. All I know, yeah, 1260 01:10:32.640 --> 01:10:36.600 all I All I know is that it would be 1261 01:10:36.680 --> 01:10:39.239 it would be terrible for the world, and I think 1262 01:10:39.239 --> 01:10:45.199 it would be terrible for America and Americans if if 1263 01:10:45.199 --> 01:10:48.840 the regime gets its way in Ukraine. I think that 1264 01:10:48.560 --> 01:10:51.760 that it would be a disaster for the world, actually, 1265 01:10:51.760 --> 01:10:53.600 and I think that the best thing that could happen, 1266 01:10:53.640 --> 01:10:59.439 including with like to America and two Americans. Is that 1267 01:10:59.439 --> 01:11:02.039 the Russians get their way in Ukraine and that and 1268 01:11:02.079 --> 01:11:04.560 that we have to take a step back from this 1269 01:11:04.680 --> 01:11:09.960 global American empire. That uh, you know, we we we're 1270 01:11:11.800 --> 01:11:13.520 I mean, if you look at places like Russia and 1271 01:11:13.560 --> 01:11:18.720 Turkey and Israel, uh to a degree, and Saudi Arabia 1272 01:11:18.760 --> 01:11:22.640 to a degree, India, China. You know, basically these sort 1273 01:11:22.680 --> 01:11:26.640 of civilization states, they all have an interest in a 1274 01:11:26.720 --> 01:11:30.119 multipolar world order. We're we are the only ones that don't. 1275 01:11:31.960 --> 01:11:33.560 And that and that goes for the Europeans as well. 1276 01:11:33.560 --> 01:11:34.920 I mean, we see what's going on over there. The 1277 01:11:34.920 --> 01:11:39.359 Europeans are the Europeans are done man like their their 1278 01:11:39.439 --> 01:11:44.439 economy is I saw this thing the other day, point o, yeah, 1279 01:11:44.479 --> 01:11:46.680 there you go. I mean, and it's ah and there 1280 01:11:46.680 --> 01:11:48.800 were and yet they're doing it's a d I Y 1281 01:11:48.960 --> 01:11:51.439 morgent Tho plan like getting them to do it to themselves. 1282 01:11:52.319 --> 01:11:55.479 And you know, I mean that's I don't blame the 1283 01:11:55.520 --> 01:11:58.279 European people for being that stupid, obviously, I think their 1284 01:11:58.319 --> 01:12:01.319 leaders are compromised. NATO is not so much a military 1285 01:12:01.359 --> 01:12:04.960 alliance as much as it's just the euphemism we give 1286 01:12:05.079 --> 01:12:11.520 to the American domination of Europe. So yeah, it's I 1287 01:12:11.560 --> 01:12:14.720 think that taking getting a bloody nose on this and 1288 01:12:14.720 --> 01:12:17.479 getting pushed back and finding out that in fact, other 1289 01:12:17.680 --> 01:12:20.199 major powers do have spheres of influence and you don't 1290 01:12:20.239 --> 01:12:21.880 run the world, it would be the best thing it 1291 01:12:21.880 --> 01:12:24.119 could happen to us and certainly to the rest of 1292 01:12:24.119 --> 01:12:24.520 the world. 1293 01:12:25.680 --> 01:12:30.079 Yeah, sometimes getting punched in the mouth is very beneficial. 1294 01:12:30.279 --> 01:12:32.600 I think that the world would be the United States 1295 01:12:32.640 --> 01:12:36.600 would definitely be a much different place if a lot 1296 01:12:36.600 --> 01:12:41.680 of the men who've become adults and who become adults 1297 01:12:41.680 --> 01:12:43.720 age in the last twenty years have been punched in 1298 01:12:43.720 --> 01:12:46.119 the mouth a bunch As a kid. 1299 01:12:46.520 --> 01:12:49.760 Yeah, you know, I had a cousin. I have a 1300 01:12:49.800 --> 01:12:53.600 cousin who you know, he's always kind of a mama's boy, 1301 01:12:53.760 --> 01:12:56.960 very soft, couldn't really and it translated over into just 1302 01:12:57.000 --> 01:12:59.079 how he kind of lived his life. Couldn't really like 1303 01:12:59.119 --> 01:13:02.479 get motivated to do anything. One day, He's like twenty 1304 01:13:02.640 --> 01:13:06.000 twenty one, twenty two, he was in a he was 1305 01:13:06.000 --> 01:13:08.560 in a restaurant waiting in line with his girlfriend and 1306 01:13:08.600 --> 01:13:10.800 there are these gang bangers there who like started making 1307 01:13:10.840 --> 01:13:12.479 remarks to his girlfriend. He felt like he had to 1308 01:13:12.520 --> 01:13:16.199 say something. They just kicked his ass and you know, 1309 01:13:16.319 --> 01:13:19.000 really gave him a good, a pretty solid beating. These guys. 1310 01:13:19.359 --> 01:13:21.279 It was the best thing that ever happened to him. 1311 01:13:21.520 --> 01:13:23.399 I mean, he became a man that day. And then 1312 01:13:23.439 --> 01:13:26.159 he just he went out and he you know, finished college. 1313 01:13:26.159 --> 01:13:28.640 He's a teacher now, he's a very successful guy. And 1314 01:13:28.680 --> 01:13:31.800 he really like matured about ten years in fifteen minutes 1315 01:13:31.880 --> 01:13:34.239 during that beating. So yeah, definitely right about that. 1316 01:13:35.800 --> 01:13:37.399 All right, Well let's get out of here. 1317 01:13:37.800 --> 01:13:40.039 Yeah, I rambled so much. I don't know if we 1318 01:13:40.720 --> 01:13:41.319 want to cover up. 1319 01:13:42.560 --> 01:13:46.840 I think we covered enough. Remind everybody where they can 1320 01:13:46.840 --> 01:13:47.479 find your work. 1321 01:13:49.000 --> 01:13:53.880 The podcast is called Martyr Made all one word Martyr 1322 01:13:53.960 --> 01:13:58.840 as in a Lahu wak Bar made. My other podcast 1323 01:13:58.880 --> 01:14:02.079 with Jocko's called Unraveling. You can find those both anywhere 1324 01:14:02.079 --> 01:14:05.199 that you get podcasts or on the Martyr Made website. 1325 01:14:05.399 --> 01:14:09.640 And then I got a substack Martermade dot substack dot com. 1326 01:14:10.000 --> 01:14:11.039 And yeah, that's it. 1327 01:14:11.880 --> 01:14:14.359 I appreciate it. Daryl, thank you, and let's do this 1328 01:14:14.399 --> 01:14:14.880 again soon. 1329 01:14:14.960 --> 01:14:17.279 Yeah, anytime. Pete, thanks man, thank you. 1330 01:14:17.439 --> 01:14:21.680 Take care. I want to welcome everyone back to the 1331 01:14:21.720 --> 01:14:25.840 Pete Kenyona's show, returning to the show. I've been waiting 1332 01:14:25.880 --> 01:14:27.479 for this, Darallel Cooper. 1333 01:14:27.840 --> 01:14:31.000 They doing do good man, how are you. It's great 1334 01:14:31.039 --> 01:14:31.760 to be back on. 1335 01:14:32.520 --> 01:14:35.680 Thank you, thank you. Last time you were on, we 1336 01:14:35.720 --> 01:14:39.800 did a We talked about the ridiculousness of Pizzagate and 1337 01:14:39.840 --> 01:14:44.159 how that was just totally ridiculous. Yeah, totally ridiculous. Nothing 1338 01:14:44.199 --> 01:14:48.279 there but this one. This one, this is a Was 1339 01:14:48.319 --> 01:14:51.560 it five parts you've written? 1340 01:14:52.239 --> 01:14:53.640 I think it was five or six? Yeah. I was 1341 01:14:53.640 --> 01:14:55.760 supposed to be one, and then I decided it was 1342 01:14:55.800 --> 01:14:57.239 going to be two, and then it turned it into 1343 01:14:57.399 --> 01:15:00.560 five or six, which is what always happens with my projects. 1344 01:15:00.640 --> 01:15:03.640 So yeah, and it was very simply titled. I remember 1345 01:15:03.640 --> 01:15:08.279 getting the emails and said Jews and Blacks and I 1346 01:15:08.319 --> 01:15:11.479 assume that's in America, because you know, that was my 1347 01:15:11.520 --> 01:15:15.520 immediate assumption. And I started reading and I wanted to 1348 01:15:15.600 --> 01:15:18.800 have you on so that you're doing this on your 1349 01:15:18.800 --> 01:15:21.720 sub Sac and sub Sac is an unbelievable platform. They've 1350 01:15:21.760 --> 01:15:23.800 been really good to me and good to a lot 1351 01:15:23.840 --> 01:15:26.399 of people who believe in uh, you know, you should 1352 01:15:26.399 --> 01:15:29.239 be able to say what you want and not have 1353 01:15:29.359 --> 01:15:33.399 to suffer the consequences of the regime and their apparatus. 1354 01:15:34.680 --> 01:15:39.039 But this is something that with my recent reading of 1355 01:15:39.199 --> 01:15:42.239 race War in high school, which a lot of people 1356 01:15:42.319 --> 01:15:47.479 wouldn't maybe they would see the black white conflict in it. 1357 01:15:47.560 --> 01:15:52.680 But the fact that the New York City Teachers Union, 1358 01:15:52.760 --> 01:15:56.000 the UFT at the time had sixty thousand members and 1359 01:15:56.159 --> 01:16:00.760 forty thousand of them were Jewish. I look at that, 1360 01:16:01.000 --> 01:16:06.880 and I'm trying to also look at the historic relationship 1361 01:16:06.920 --> 01:16:10.039 between the black and the jew in this country. And 1362 01:16:10.079 --> 01:16:12.079 you just started writing about it. So I want to 1363 01:16:12.119 --> 01:16:14.199 give you a chance to do an overview. So where 1364 01:16:14.199 --> 01:16:14.920 do you want to start. 1365 01:16:16.359 --> 01:16:18.640 You know, the reason I started writing that series is 1366 01:16:19.279 --> 01:16:21.560 the Kanye stuff was in the news, and I knew 1367 01:16:21.560 --> 01:16:24.680 a little bit about the history of Black Jewish relations 1368 01:16:24.800 --> 01:16:28.439 in the twentieth century, and you know, I kind of 1369 01:16:28.479 --> 01:16:30.920 realized that when the Kanye thing came out, and it's 1370 01:16:31.000 --> 01:16:33.359 kind of happens every time, you know, when the Nick 1371 01:16:33.439 --> 01:16:36.600 Cannon thing happened, or when jay Z got introlled. Each 1372 01:16:36.640 --> 01:16:40.880 time this happens, people tend to just put it in 1373 01:16:40.920 --> 01:16:44.159 a jar and you know, put it up by itself 1374 01:16:44.199 --> 01:16:47.520 on display somewhere as like this ignorant rapper who made 1375 01:16:47.560 --> 01:16:51.600 this ignorant remark you know, but when you look back 1376 01:16:51.680 --> 01:16:55.079 at how often this has happened over the years, and 1377 01:16:55.079 --> 01:16:58.720 how often it happens specifically with black celebrities and not 1378 01:16:58.840 --> 01:17:02.119 white celebrities. You know, it took a bottle of Jim 1379 01:17:02.199 --> 01:17:04.760 Beam and sleep deprivation for mel Gibson to go on 1380 01:17:04.840 --> 01:17:08.960 his rant. You know, but that that you realize that 1381 01:17:08.960 --> 01:17:11.600 there's a long history here and that this doesn't just 1382 01:17:11.640 --> 01:17:14.039 come out of nowhere. It didn't erupt out of nowhere, 1383 01:17:14.159 --> 01:17:17.520 and it's just, you know, these these ideas that Kanye 1384 01:17:17.600 --> 01:17:20.760 is putting out about blacks being the real Hebrews, or 1385 01:17:21.960 --> 01:17:26.000 you know, Jewish executives and business owners taking advantage of 1386 01:17:26.000 --> 01:17:29.119 black labor or black customers, or you know, any of 1387 01:17:29.119 --> 01:17:33.159 these things that he says. He's not going online and 1388 01:17:33.680 --> 01:17:37.279 you know, to some hardcore right wing website reading these things. 1389 01:17:37.359 --> 01:17:40.199 These are ideas that have been circulating in the black 1390 01:17:40.199 --> 01:17:45.159 community for many decades, and you know, so I wanted 1391 01:17:45.199 --> 01:17:48.640 to give people just a little history lesson on the 1392 01:17:48.680 --> 01:17:52.319 background of what happened when when Kanye was having his 1393 01:17:52.880 --> 01:17:57.079 self immolation on the steps of the A d L headquarters, 1394 01:17:57.119 --> 01:17:59.920 But it ended up being like a much longer his 1395 01:18:00.000 --> 01:18:02.399 history of black Jewish relations in the US, you know, 1396 01:18:02.560 --> 01:18:07.079 kind of started back with the Great migration up through 1397 01:18:07.279 --> 01:18:10.119 the teachers strike, which I'm sure we'll talk about, and 1398 01:18:10.159 --> 01:18:11.760 then all the way on up through like the Crown 1399 01:18:11.800 --> 01:18:16.159 Heights riot and you know, attempts by various people on 1400 01:18:16.239 --> 01:18:19.560 both sides to kind of paper over their differences and 1401 01:18:20.039 --> 01:18:23.279 smooth things over. And yeah, it was it was a 1402 01:18:23.319 --> 01:18:25.880 lot of fun. I learned a lot actually when I 1403 01:18:25.920 --> 01:18:26.720 was researching it. 1404 01:18:27.880 --> 01:18:34.399 Well, the real migration from Europe of well, I mean, 1405 01:18:34.479 --> 01:18:37.920 we know how Black scott here and then there'll be 1406 01:18:37.960 --> 01:18:41.720 immigration later. But it seems like it started around eighteen 1407 01:18:41.800 --> 01:18:46.880 eighty going into eighteen ninety. But there were a Jewish population, 1408 01:18:47.159 --> 01:18:51.199 it seems like predominantly German, of German Jews at the time, 1409 01:18:51.840 --> 01:18:57.880 and they had integrated into the into the population. I mean, 1410 01:18:58.600 --> 01:19:01.520 some will argue not very well, but hey, you know 1411 01:19:02.359 --> 01:19:03.720 pretty well though pretty well. 1412 01:19:03.800 --> 01:19:07.159 Yeah, like the German Jews, like they were pretty assimilated 1413 01:19:07.159 --> 01:19:09.479 in Germany, you know, and so when they came over here, 1414 01:19:09.479 --> 01:19:13.000 they assimbly. They were pretty assimilated, right because they came 1415 01:19:13.039 --> 01:19:15.640 over you know, there was a big German migration that came. 1416 01:19:15.680 --> 01:19:17.800 It kind of gets forgotten because it happened at the 1417 01:19:17.800 --> 01:19:20.760 same time as the huge migration of Irish in the 1418 01:19:20.760 --> 01:19:24.319 mid nineteenth century. It was a pretty big German migration too, 1419 01:19:24.399 --> 01:19:27.199 and some portion of those were Jews, and they you know, 1420 01:19:27.439 --> 01:19:30.239 mostly lived up in the northern cities, and yeah, so 1421 01:19:30.239 --> 01:19:31.039 they were there before. 1422 01:19:32.479 --> 01:19:38.640 With the subsequent migration in the eighteen eighties and eighteen nineties, 1423 01:19:39.359 --> 01:19:42.960 it seems like the there was a worry with the 1424 01:19:43.000 --> 01:19:46.560 group that was already here, that the assimilation here was 1425 01:19:46.600 --> 01:19:48.920 not going to be as work as well as it 1426 01:19:49.000 --> 01:19:50.159 did with them. 1427 01:19:50.680 --> 01:19:53.960 Yeah. Absolutely, I mean the you know German Jews and 1428 01:19:54.079 --> 01:19:57.760 the ostudent in Poland and the Russian Empire, they there 1429 01:19:57.800 --> 01:20:00.800 was a lot of animosity and mistrust there even back 1430 01:20:00.840 --> 01:20:03.960 in Europe. You know, you read one of the early Zionists, 1431 01:20:04.000 --> 01:20:08.079 like high In Wetzmen write about German Jews and he 1432 01:20:08.199 --> 01:20:11.239 despises them because he thinks they look down on Polish Jews, 1433 01:20:11.439 --> 01:20:14.239 and maybe they did to a certain extent. You know, 1434 01:20:14.279 --> 01:20:17.319 they were German Jews were pretty well assimilated. They were 1435 01:20:17.399 --> 01:20:21.600 very successful members of German society. You know. The Eastern 1436 01:20:21.680 --> 01:20:26.760 Jews in the Russian Empire were they were less certainly 1437 01:20:26.840 --> 01:20:32.000 less assimilated, but just sort of less less sort of 1438 01:20:33.239 --> 01:20:36.880 integrated into the value system and the habits of like 1439 01:20:37.000 --> 01:20:39.800 Enlightenment Europe by that point, right, And so there was that, 1440 01:20:41.000 --> 01:20:43.479 But this is something that's actually happened. You know. You 1441 01:20:43.520 --> 01:20:46.439 see the same thing when you look at the big 1442 01:20:46.479 --> 01:20:49.920 Irish migration in the mid nineteenth century. There were Irish 1443 01:20:49.920 --> 01:20:52.560 who were already here, who were well assimilated and who 1444 01:20:52.560 --> 01:20:56.039 were because you know, the earliest Irish migrations into the 1445 01:20:56.159 --> 01:21:00.399 United States were predominantly people with skill, are with a 1446 01:21:00.399 --> 01:21:02.560 good trade or with wealth, and they were coming over 1447 01:21:02.600 --> 01:21:04.880 and integrating pretty well. And then when you had the 1448 01:21:04.920 --> 01:21:09.239 famine in in the mid nineteenth century, you started getting 1449 01:21:09.279 --> 01:21:13.359 just flooded. Our cities got flooded with just I mean 1450 01:21:13.399 --> 01:21:16.439 an unbelievable like a quarter of the entire population of 1451 01:21:16.479 --> 01:21:18.880 Ireland moved to the United States in a short period 1452 01:21:18.920 --> 01:21:22.920 of time. I mean, that's just unbelievable. But like you know, 1453 01:21:22.960 --> 01:21:25.039 and they pretty much all settled in cities, at least 1454 01:21:25.039 --> 01:21:30.159 at first, and you had the previous Irish residents of 1455 01:21:30.159 --> 01:21:37.520 those cities who were seeing these mostly illiterate, poor rural 1456 01:21:38.079 --> 01:21:40.960 Irish people who were coming over and they're thinking, oh 1457 01:21:41.000 --> 01:21:43.439 my god, like these the Americans are going to hate 1458 01:21:43.439 --> 01:21:46.039 Irish people now, and we're going to get sucked into that. 1459 01:21:46.079 --> 01:21:50.520 And so they set up benevolent associations in settlement houses 1460 01:21:50.640 --> 01:21:53.359 and various things to sort of try to integrate these 1461 01:21:53.399 --> 01:21:56.000 people only did a pretty good job. And the same 1462 01:21:56.000 --> 01:21:58.960 thing happened with German Jews when Eastern Jews started coming 1463 01:21:59.039 --> 01:22:02.399 over in the eighteen eighty there was actually you know, 1464 01:22:02.880 --> 01:22:05.199 if you wanted to participate, if you were a new 1465 01:22:05.319 --> 01:22:09.159 Jewish immigrant, you wanted to participate or benefit from some 1466 01:22:09.319 --> 01:22:13.239 of the like just community resources, community welfare resources, or 1467 01:22:13.279 --> 01:22:16.600 anything that were provided by the Jewish community itself, you 1468 01:22:16.680 --> 01:22:20.960 had to go through this process of you know, going 1469 01:22:20.960 --> 01:22:23.359 into these settlement houses and sort of you had to 1470 01:22:23.359 --> 01:22:25.760 make you had to learn English, you had you had 1471 01:22:25.760 --> 01:22:28.800 to assimilate basically, and they made damn sure you did. 1472 01:22:29.399 --> 01:22:31.880 And you know, you even saw the same thing when 1473 01:22:31.920 --> 01:22:34.840 you get into the twentieth century with the great migration 1474 01:22:34.920 --> 01:22:37.680 of blacks out of the South. You know, there there 1475 01:22:37.720 --> 01:22:40.880 were black people who lived in the northern cities, very few, 1476 01:22:41.039 --> 01:22:44.159 but they'd lived there for a long time. These are 1477 01:22:44.199 --> 01:22:46.399 people who would live there since before the Civil War. 1478 01:22:47.359 --> 01:22:50.720 And when they got up there and they started seeing 1479 01:22:50.720 --> 01:22:55.199 their country cousins flooding into the cities. You know, they 1480 01:22:55.239 --> 01:22:58.640 think this is this is bad news for us, and 1481 01:22:58.680 --> 01:23:01.039 so you know, there was somewhat less of a of 1482 01:23:01.079 --> 01:23:05.479 an attempt to help them integrate, which may have something 1483 01:23:05.479 --> 01:23:08.279 to do with why you know, it didn't happen as well. 1484 01:23:09.439 --> 01:23:13.079 Me knowing my history and especially my New York history, 1485 01:23:13.199 --> 01:23:17.800 Harlem jazz clubs popping up. Now we're getting into the 1486 01:23:17.960 --> 01:23:23.880 early nineteen hundreds, it seems like not only did a 1487 01:23:23.960 --> 01:23:25.960 lot of Jews own the jazz clubs where are the 1488 01:23:26.000 --> 01:23:28.680 blacks play? But a lot of the Jews were musicians, 1489 01:23:28.760 --> 01:23:32.239 were a part of that scene. How do they get 1490 01:23:32.279 --> 01:23:33.159 along at that time? 1491 01:23:35.399 --> 01:23:39.199 Not bad? Not bad? Actually, you know. I mean there's 1492 01:23:39.239 --> 01:23:44.680 always a difference in how different social classes relate to 1493 01:23:44.840 --> 01:23:48.279 people who are different. Right, if you're in the upper 1494 01:23:48.359 --> 01:23:53.079 upper class, you're not competing for your job with a 1495 01:23:53.119 --> 01:23:56.279 new black migrant, for example, and so there's always a 1496 01:23:56.279 --> 01:23:58.840 little bit more room for tolerance, like the higher you 1497 01:23:58.880 --> 01:24:02.920 are up the social scale. But not bad, you know. 1498 01:24:02.960 --> 01:24:05.960 In nineteen oh nine, I think is when the NAACP 1499 01:24:06.239 --> 01:24:11.800 was formed, and Jewish money and Jewish like executive leadership 1500 01:24:11.880 --> 01:24:14.479 in that organization was. It was critical to getting that 1501 01:24:14.600 --> 01:24:18.520 organization going and remained critical to it like throughout most 1502 01:24:18.560 --> 01:24:24.239 of its history. You know. It's it's interesting because you know, 1503 01:24:24.279 --> 01:24:30.119 the Jews in Europe, especially in Eastern Europe. You know, 1504 01:24:30.159 --> 01:24:33.079 the way you have to kind of think of them before, 1505 01:24:33.239 --> 01:24:36.079 like up to right around the well about the great 1506 01:24:36.119 --> 01:24:38.560 migration of Jews over here in the eighteen eighties really 1507 01:24:39.119 --> 01:24:45.720 is they were like a more advanced, more sophisticated Gypsy group. Basically, 1508 01:24:46.119 --> 01:24:49.319 you know, they were people without a home country who 1509 01:24:49.399 --> 01:24:54.319 lived everywhere, traveled around, and they engaged in trades that 1510 01:24:55.560 --> 01:24:58.640 made them useful to their host populations. Right, So Gypsies 1511 01:24:59.279 --> 01:25:01.560 are a little bit more primitive in that sense. You know, 1512 01:25:01.560 --> 01:25:05.359 there's a lot of art, music, dance, and fortune telling, 1513 01:25:05.439 --> 01:25:08.399 you know, things like that, as well as criminal activity. 1514 01:25:10.520 --> 01:25:12.560 But the Jews, you know, these were you know, they 1515 01:25:12.600 --> 01:25:17.079 had the advantage of before this was common throughout Europe. 1516 01:25:17.199 --> 01:25:19.800 Most Jews were literate because it was just part of 1517 01:25:19.800 --> 01:25:23.560 their social tradition. And you know, if you were if 1518 01:25:23.560 --> 01:25:27.960 you were literate in eighteen fifty, then you know there 1519 01:25:28.279 --> 01:25:30.880 was going to be something for you to do. And 1520 01:25:31.199 --> 01:25:35.479 but there were also a lot of Jewish entertainers, you know, singing, dancing, 1521 01:25:35.560 --> 01:25:39.000 things that you know, were considered disreputable back in the day. 1522 01:25:39.159 --> 01:25:42.159 Like back in the day, an actor was not something 1523 01:25:42.640 --> 01:25:45.880 that anybody wanted to associate with. Like people might go 1524 01:25:45.920 --> 01:25:48.760 to the shows and enjoy them, but they were considered 1525 01:25:48.840 --> 01:25:52.000 it was considered a disreputable trade because they just you know, 1526 01:25:52.000 --> 01:25:54.520 people didn't like them. And so Jews did a lot 1527 01:25:54.520 --> 01:25:56.359 of that, and when they come over to the United States, 1528 01:25:56.439 --> 01:25:58.560 they did a lot of that, a lot of Jewish comedians, 1529 01:25:58.680 --> 01:26:01.880 Jewish musicians, et cetera. And they own ended up owning 1530 01:26:01.920 --> 01:26:06.680 a lot of the jazz clubs. And yeah, they you know, 1531 01:26:06.720 --> 01:26:11.439 as far as I know, I mean, race relations, you know, 1532 01:26:11.520 --> 01:26:14.279 race relations in general in the North were not really 1533 01:26:14.319 --> 01:26:17.279 bad before the Great Migration because there just weren't enough 1534 01:26:18.119 --> 01:26:23.000 Black people to make anybody really feel threatened as far 1535 01:26:23.039 --> 01:26:26.199 as their job or the changing of their neighborhood. 1536 01:26:26.239 --> 01:26:26.439 You know. 1537 01:26:26.479 --> 01:26:31.680 The first real anti black violence, like at a real 1538 01:26:31.760 --> 01:26:34.560 scale that you get other than the Civil War riots, 1539 01:26:34.960 --> 01:26:39.359 draft riots, comes after the First World War, when million 1540 01:26:39.439 --> 01:26:41.000 you know, I don't know, it's probably about a million. 1541 01:26:41.039 --> 01:26:45.079 Actually Black people had moved up into the cities, mostly 1542 01:26:45.119 --> 01:26:48.680 in the in the East and Midwest, and you know, 1543 01:26:48.760 --> 01:26:51.439 because men, white men were over in Europe in the 1544 01:26:51.479 --> 01:26:54.399 trenches and they need they needed labor to fill up 1545 01:26:54.399 --> 01:26:57.880 the industrial jobs. And so they start advertising down in 1546 01:26:57.920 --> 01:27:00.960 the South. Companies are advertised down in the South to 1547 01:27:00.960 --> 01:27:03.760 get black workers to come up and something that's kind 1548 01:27:03.760 --> 01:27:07.159 of it's possible now, right because there's railroads that are 1549 01:27:07.279 --> 01:27:12.239 available for mass use. And you know, so when when 1550 01:27:12.399 --> 01:27:15.560 those workers, when when the white workers start getting back 1551 01:27:15.600 --> 01:27:17.920 from Europe from the First World War, they find a 1552 01:27:17.960 --> 01:27:20.680 lot of their jobs all taken up by these people, 1553 01:27:20.680 --> 01:27:23.680 these black people who weren't here before. And you actually 1554 01:27:23.680 --> 01:27:26.520 did see some some racial violence at that time. And 1555 01:27:26.600 --> 01:27:29.319 so I think before the Great Migration, though it was 1556 01:27:29.359 --> 01:27:32.840 not it was not so much of an issue sports. 1557 01:27:33.000 --> 01:27:36.520 I mean, there was a time when Jews were the 1558 01:27:36.520 --> 01:27:41.319 heavyweight champion of the world and boxing and they basically 1559 01:27:41.359 --> 01:27:45.159 dominated basketball. So they still do. 1560 01:27:45.439 --> 01:27:46.319 Look at the ownership. 1561 01:27:46.439 --> 01:27:50.359 Oh yeah, it just switched a little bit. Yeah, what 1562 01:27:50.359 --> 01:27:53.840 do you know about how that because from what I understand, 1563 01:27:54.199 --> 01:27:56.920 it was another one of those things where Jewish community 1564 01:27:57.039 --> 01:28:00.520 leaders were like, this is very disreputable. We really needs 1565 01:28:00.520 --> 01:28:06.439 to concentrate on academics and basically they put in their 1566 01:28:06.600 --> 01:28:12.640 neighborhood newspapers. We pushing people out and making other Jews 1567 01:28:12.680 --> 01:28:15.720 feel like they shouldn't be doing this and they should 1568 01:28:15.720 --> 01:28:18.039 be concentrating on other things. 1569 01:28:18.600 --> 01:28:22.159 Yeah, yeah, it's that's definitely the case. And if you 1570 01:28:22.159 --> 01:28:24.520 look at the NBA, you know that really is like 1571 01:28:24.640 --> 01:28:29.880 the NBA and the recording industry you know too, which 1572 01:28:30.119 --> 01:28:33.119 kind of come back to this topic between the relationship 1573 01:28:33.159 --> 01:28:37.239 between Blacks and Jews, right, are two areas that Jews 1574 01:28:37.279 --> 01:28:40.840 once dominated and then moved up to the ownership level 1575 01:28:40.880 --> 01:28:43.359 on I think out of the thirty NBA teams, fourteen 1576 01:28:43.439 --> 01:28:47.399 or fifteen of them have Jewish owners. And you know, 1577 01:28:47.439 --> 01:28:52.840 they've had a Jewish League commissioner since I think eighty three, 1578 01:28:53.439 --> 01:28:57.119 and David Stern was pretty much understood by everybody to 1579 01:28:57.119 --> 01:29:00.359 be running the show as the as the second man 1580 01:29:00.439 --> 01:29:03.479 for a decade before that. So you know, we're talking 1581 01:29:03.920 --> 01:29:05.880 what is that fifty years that they've had a Jewish 1582 01:29:05.880 --> 01:29:10.560 commissioner basically, And yeah, I mean and that creates resentment, 1583 01:29:10.720 --> 01:29:13.720 you know. I mean it's something that you know, you 1584 01:29:14.039 --> 01:29:18.039 see it in different ways, like in James Baldwin wrote 1585 01:29:18.079 --> 01:29:22.720 this this kind of infamous article back in sixty three 1586 01:29:23.239 --> 01:29:28.079 sixty four. I think sometimes in the sixties called negroes 1587 01:29:28.079 --> 01:29:31.680 are anti Semitic because they're anti white. And you know, 1588 01:29:31.720 --> 01:29:34.680 he starts it off with, I mean, this is not 1589 01:29:34.720 --> 01:29:37.560 something you could get published today, even by a black author. 1590 01:29:37.720 --> 01:29:39.520 You know, he says, when I was a boy growing 1591 01:29:39.600 --> 01:29:42.439 up in Harlem, you know, the butcher was a Jew 1592 01:29:42.479 --> 01:29:44.920 and we hated him. The landlord was a Jew, and 1593 01:29:44.960 --> 01:29:47.079 we hated him because he wouldn't take care of our building, 1594 01:29:47.119 --> 01:29:50.600 et cetera. You know, the our teachers were mostly Jews 1595 01:29:50.600 --> 01:29:52.720 and we hated them because they talked down to us. 1596 01:29:52.760 --> 01:29:54.600 And he kind of just goes on and on like this, 1597 01:29:54.680 --> 01:29:59.039 and this is you know, I mean, it's pretty shocking 1598 01:29:59.079 --> 01:30:02.439 to like modern readers to read it, right, just like that. 1599 01:30:02.600 --> 01:30:04.840 You know, around the same time that that Norman pod 1600 01:30:04.840 --> 01:30:08.039 hortz h article in the Commentary that I quote a lot, 1601 01:30:08.079 --> 01:30:10.880 is really shocking to people today, you know, and I 1602 01:30:10.920 --> 01:30:13.720 think we've probably really lost something, you know, by not 1603 01:30:13.840 --> 01:30:16.920 allowing people to speak openly about these things. You know, 1604 01:30:17.479 --> 01:30:21.439 when you read pod Hortz's article in Commentary, it's called 1605 01:30:22.760 --> 01:30:25.800 it's called My Negro Problem in ours. It's a famous 1606 01:30:25.920 --> 01:30:28.840 article that you know, one of the fathers of neo 1607 01:30:28.840 --> 01:30:34.039 conservatism wrote and he talks about living in He grew 1608 01:30:34.119 --> 01:30:36.840 up in Brownsville, actually so right there in Brooklyn and 1609 01:30:38.159 --> 01:30:41.840 in a mixed neighborhood of primarily Jews, Italians and some blacks. 1610 01:30:41.960 --> 01:30:44.039 And when he was a boy, it was still mostly 1611 01:30:44.119 --> 01:30:49.720 Jews and Italians, but a growing black population. And he 1612 01:30:49.760 --> 01:30:51.560 goes through with all these incidents when he was a 1613 01:30:51.640 --> 01:30:54.760 kid of you know, once when he's a twelve year 1614 01:30:54.800 --> 01:30:57.439 old boy gets attacked by a group and hitting the 1615 01:30:57.439 --> 01:31:01.000 head with a baseball bat and just can consistently getting 1616 01:31:02.279 --> 01:31:06.880 you know, mugged, extorted, threatened, intimidated, and beaten like a 1617 01:31:06.920 --> 01:31:09.960 lot by these black kids. And he talks about how 1618 01:31:10.000 --> 01:31:15.720 that experience growing up kind of shaped his shaped certain views, 1619 01:31:15.800 --> 01:31:19.640 some of which he you know, justifies, others that he 1620 01:31:19.680 --> 01:31:22.039 doesn't justify and that he's ashamed of. But he says 1621 01:31:22.079 --> 01:31:26.119 that they're really there, you know, and those are you know, 1622 01:31:26.239 --> 01:31:29.840 that's a that's a that's an important article, an important 1623 01:31:29.880 --> 01:31:32.079 perspective to get. You know, you have a twelve year 1624 01:31:32.119 --> 01:31:34.359 old boy who got beat over the head with a 1625 01:31:34.399 --> 01:31:38.680 baseball bat. That's incredibly traumatic. It's incredibly traumatic for like 1626 01:31:39.039 --> 01:31:42.239 for the parents, you know, for everybody involved to have 1627 01:31:42.319 --> 01:31:43.920 something like that happen. I mean, I grew up in 1628 01:31:44.000 --> 01:31:47.880 rough neighborhoods, in mostly black, black neighborhoods, and so I'm 1629 01:31:48.000 --> 01:31:49.720 kind of used to this kind of thing. But I 1630 01:31:49.760 --> 01:31:52.279 wonder sometimes how people who are who grew up in 1631 01:31:52.319 --> 01:31:55.000 kind of middle class, stable circumstances when they read about 1632 01:31:55.000 --> 01:31:57.119 a twelve year old boy getting attacked and beaten over 1633 01:31:57.159 --> 01:32:00.640 the head with a baseball bat. It's pretty shock, you know, 1634 01:32:00.760 --> 01:32:02.760 and and and it is shocking. It was. It was 1635 01:32:02.800 --> 01:32:07.199 really traumatic. And the feelings that that that somebody like 1636 01:32:07.199 --> 01:32:10.920 pot Horts has that are an outgrowth of these, you know, 1637 01:32:11.039 --> 01:32:16.079 really difficult experiences. You know, they're important to talk about, 1638 01:32:16.239 --> 01:32:19.760 but you can't talk about them anymore, and it's unfortunate. 1639 01:32:19.840 --> 01:32:23.760 And just like in James Baldwin's case too, you know, Baldwin, Uh, 1640 01:32:25.880 --> 01:32:28.399 you can call that article anti semitic. I don't really 1641 01:32:28.439 --> 01:32:31.560 think it is, uh anymore than pot Hortz's article is 1642 01:32:31.600 --> 01:32:35.199 anti black, but you can read it and say that 1643 01:32:35.319 --> 01:32:37.640 this is you know, Baldwin's not somebody I have a 1644 01:32:37.640 --> 01:32:39.600 lot of respect for as a writer or a thinker. 1645 01:32:40.000 --> 01:32:43.520 I think he gets overplayed because of kind of who 1646 01:32:43.560 --> 01:32:47.720 he was at a certain historical moment, but you know, 1647 01:32:47.920 --> 01:32:52.840 he he the reality was growing up in his neighborhood, 1648 01:32:52.840 --> 01:32:55.239 the butcher was a Jew. His teacher's word jews, his 1649 01:32:55.359 --> 01:33:00.920 landlord's word jews, the pawnbroker's word used. And you're going 1650 01:33:01.000 --> 01:33:03.640 to have a difficult relationship with those people when you 1651 01:33:03.720 --> 01:33:06.960 have an outside community that owns everything, holds all the 1652 01:33:07.000 --> 01:33:11.239 professional jobs, et cetera. Which makes sense because they've been 1653 01:33:11.279 --> 01:33:13.199 here for a long time and so they've moved up 1654 01:33:13.239 --> 01:33:16.319 the social ladder and you just got here. You know, 1655 01:33:16.479 --> 01:33:18.760 your people just got here, and so it's natural that 1656 01:33:18.760 --> 01:33:21.399 would be the case. But you know, at a time 1657 01:33:21.560 --> 01:33:25.359 like the nineteen sixties, when identity was becoming so important 1658 01:33:25.399 --> 01:33:28.640 and black militancy was on the rise, you know, the 1659 01:33:29.039 --> 01:33:32.439 idea that kind of had held among liberals up until 1660 01:33:32.479 --> 01:33:35.119 then that blacks would kind of travel the same path 1661 01:33:35.159 --> 01:33:40.319 that previous immigrant groups had traveled, working their way up 1662 01:33:40.479 --> 01:33:43.319 over the course of a few generations, you know, toward 1663 01:33:43.960 --> 01:33:47.600 integration to the economy and everything. That that was not 1664 01:33:47.680 --> 01:33:51.479 a proposal that was acceptable to black people anymore in 1665 01:33:51.520 --> 01:33:54.319 the sixties, And you know, you can sympathize with that 1666 01:33:54.359 --> 01:33:56.239 a bit right. They've been here for four hundred years, 1667 01:33:56.239 --> 01:33:59.079 and you have second generation immigrants telling them to get 1668 01:33:59.079 --> 01:34:01.560 in line and do what they parents did, and you 1669 01:34:01.600 --> 01:34:05.199 can see why they would chafe against that. But at 1670 01:34:05.239 --> 01:34:08.119 the same time, you know, that's the path, that is 1671 01:34:08.159 --> 01:34:12.319 the path towards success and integration, and when it was abandoned, 1672 01:34:13.239 --> 01:34:15.239 you know, we're still living with the consequences of that 1673 01:34:15.359 --> 01:34:18.840 shift in identity and ideology among black people in the 1674 01:34:18.920 --> 01:34:19.840 nineteen sixties. 1675 01:34:20.840 --> 01:34:25.840 Yeah, the intermediary, the merchant in the neighborhood that's not 1676 01:34:26.039 --> 01:34:30.640 from there. It doesn't have to be the Jew. I mean, 1677 01:34:31.199 --> 01:34:33.800 how many rap songs in the nineties were about the 1678 01:34:33.920 --> 01:34:36.479 Korean grocer in Los Angeles. 1679 01:34:36.640 --> 01:34:40.359 There's and it's to society. You know, people watch it 1680 01:34:40.359 --> 01:34:42.840 today and they're like, you know, what's going on? Or 1681 01:34:43.000 --> 01:34:45.560 just people watch it today. I noticed and what they 1682 01:34:45.560 --> 01:34:48.279 see is like there's a shop that happens to be 1683 01:34:48.359 --> 01:34:51.199 run by this Korean couple and you know, the black 1684 01:34:51.479 --> 01:34:54.159 kid shoots them. It's like, no, that was They're talking 1685 01:34:54.159 --> 01:34:58.279 about something that was a prevailing theme in you know, 1686 01:34:58.680 --> 01:35:01.239 like you said, rap songs, other black medium, this was 1687 01:35:01.279 --> 01:35:04.039 something that was that everybody talked about in Black communities 1688 01:35:04.079 --> 01:35:08.439 all the time is the Korean grocer, you know, So, yeah, 1689 01:35:08.439 --> 01:35:10.560 it doesn't have to be at all. I mean, really 1690 01:35:10.600 --> 01:35:13.479 like if you look at the La Riots, two thousand 1691 01:35:13.560 --> 01:35:18.600 Korean businesses were burned down during the La Riots two thousand. 1692 01:35:18.680 --> 01:35:22.479 When you look at like the Detroit riot in nineteen 1693 01:35:22.560 --> 01:35:24.399 sixty seven where they had to call in the eighty 1694 01:35:24.439 --> 01:35:26.680 second Airborne in one hundred and first and I mean, 1695 01:35:26.760 --> 01:35:29.640 it was all out war there were it was one 1696 01:35:29.640 --> 01:35:32.600 of the nastiest riots in the country's history. There was 1697 01:35:32.640 --> 01:35:34.960 something like four or five hundred buildings got burned down, 1698 01:35:35.239 --> 01:35:39.079 two thousand Korean businesses got burned down. There were videos 1699 01:35:39.119 --> 01:35:42.960 of groups of black rioters saying, you know, stay away 1700 01:35:42.960 --> 01:35:45.720 from that block over there, that's all owned by our people. 1701 01:35:45.760 --> 01:35:49.079 Let's go get those fucking Koreans. And so, I mean, 1702 01:35:49.079 --> 01:35:52.560 that's a program by any definition of the word. And 1703 01:35:53.319 --> 01:35:56.640 you know that happened in ninety two. In ninety one, 1704 01:35:57.279 --> 01:35:59.680 you have the Crown Heights Riot where a bunch of 1705 01:36:00.039 --> 01:36:05.920 dominantly like Jamaican and Kribbean Island are black residents of 1706 01:36:06.279 --> 01:36:12.600 this neighborhood in Brooklyn, you know, went on what hesitates 1707 01:36:12.640 --> 01:36:14.520 to call it a pugrom not a lot of damage 1708 01:36:14.560 --> 01:36:16.439 was done and only one person was killed, but you 1709 01:36:16.479 --> 01:36:19.439 did have like mobs of black people marching through the 1710 01:36:19.479 --> 01:36:23.079 streets saying Hitler didn't finish the job and get the 1711 01:36:23.159 --> 01:36:26.079 jew and stuff and so. And both of those were 1712 01:36:26.159 --> 01:36:30.239 very much driven by the animosity that led to them 1713 01:36:31.000 --> 01:36:34.439 was driven by similar circumstances. You know, it happened to 1714 01:36:34.479 --> 01:36:36.760 be the Koreans in la who owned all the businesses 1715 01:36:36.760 --> 01:36:41.720 in black communities in you know, in Brooklyn, it happened 1716 01:36:41.760 --> 01:36:44.880 to be a lot of Jews, and you know it 1717 01:36:44.920 --> 01:36:47.960 is it's a yeah, it's a problem, right because I mean, 1718 01:36:48.000 --> 01:36:50.159 on one hand, if you look at the New York situation, 1719 01:36:51.079 --> 01:36:53.520 it's a little different than the Koreans, because the Koreans 1720 01:36:53.560 --> 01:36:57.199 moved into black neighborhoods and opened these businesses and took 1721 01:36:57.239 --> 01:37:01.199 over kind of the commerce in those areas on the 1722 01:37:01.279 --> 01:37:07.439 East coast. In the Midwest, the Catholic and Jewish Euroethnics 1723 01:37:07.479 --> 01:37:10.479 that had previously lived in those places owned the real estate, 1724 01:37:10.479 --> 01:37:13.439 owned the businesses. You know, they got driven out by 1725 01:37:13.439 --> 01:37:16.119 the influx of black migrants from the South, and so 1726 01:37:16.199 --> 01:37:18.359 they just owned what they had always owned, and they 1727 01:37:18.439 --> 01:37:21.680 just continued to own it now that the population had changed, 1728 01:37:22.359 --> 01:37:26.720 and you know, that's just something that you're you know, 1729 01:37:26.800 --> 01:37:30.079 people can chant diversities our strength all they want, and 1730 01:37:30.760 --> 01:37:35.640 maybe on some level and in certain ways it does 1731 01:37:35.720 --> 01:37:40.880 strengthen us. But there are also extreme difficulties with managing 1732 01:37:40.880 --> 01:37:46.239 a diverse society, you know, especially when when ethnicity or 1733 01:37:46.359 --> 01:37:50.960 race corresponds with social class in an uncomfortable way. You know, 1734 01:37:51.039 --> 01:37:53.640 it's very difficult to manage these things, especially in a 1735 01:37:53.680 --> 01:37:58.720 democracy quote unquote, where there's just always going to be 1736 01:37:58.960 --> 01:38:02.119 an incentive for or demagogues to rise up and say, 1737 01:38:02.159 --> 01:38:05.439 the reason you're down here is because you know those 1738 01:38:05.479 --> 01:38:08.000 people up there don't like you, and it's a very 1739 01:38:08.000 --> 01:38:12.000 appealing message to people who are in rough circumstances. You know. 1740 01:38:13.119 --> 01:38:15.319 I think if the I think if the Irish or 1741 01:38:15.319 --> 01:38:17.399 the Jews when they first came and in the first 1742 01:38:17.439 --> 01:38:19.800 generation or two, when they were down at the bottom 1743 01:38:19.840 --> 01:38:24.159 of the social scale, if they had had, you know, 1744 01:38:24.359 --> 01:38:27.359 sort of that same level of resentment for where they 1745 01:38:27.399 --> 01:38:31.920 were starting out and everything that a lot of blacks 1746 01:38:32.119 --> 01:38:35.800 kind of embraced in the twentieth century, they probably would 1747 01:38:35.840 --> 01:38:39.319 have ended up in a similar bad situation. You know. 1748 01:38:39.439 --> 01:38:41.359 But it was really the opposite. I mean they were. 1749 01:38:42.239 --> 01:38:46.439 I mean, shoot, they we all know, like people change 1750 01:38:46.439 --> 01:38:50.199 their names to make them more familiar to Americans. You 1751 01:38:50.279 --> 01:38:54.560 hear about like ethnics in the Eastern cities, who you know, 1752 01:38:54.600 --> 01:38:57.680 the parents are immigrants and they won't allow their children 1753 01:38:57.840 --> 01:38:59.680 to speak the mother tongue at home. They're like, you 1754 01:38:59.720 --> 01:39:02.159 speak English in this country, and you hear about that, 1755 01:39:02.279 --> 01:39:05.439 or even even my family, like you know, on my 1756 01:39:05.520 --> 01:39:10.359 father's side, my father's side came out to California as 1757 01:39:10.399 --> 01:39:13.000 part of the Oki migration during the dust Bowl in 1758 01:39:13.039 --> 01:39:17.840 the thirties. And you know that's something that is sort 1759 01:39:17.840 --> 01:39:21.439 of romanticized for most people because of John Steinbeck and 1760 01:39:21.479 --> 01:39:24.800 so forth. But this was, like, it was very, very similar. 1761 01:39:25.640 --> 01:39:28.079 It was a smaller scale, but you know, you got 1762 01:39:28.119 --> 01:39:34.079 these people who were like rowdy, hard drinking, fighting, rural 1763 01:39:34.159 --> 01:39:39.000 Southerners who were used to being basically sharecroppers or just 1764 01:39:39.039 --> 01:39:42.319 above sharecroppers, who are now moving over into California, and 1765 01:39:42.359 --> 01:39:44.600 people did not like them. You know, they thought of 1766 01:39:44.640 --> 01:39:48.640 them as vulgar, and the tent cities that sprang up 1767 01:39:48.680 --> 01:39:53.640 to house them were you know, considered like just dens 1768 01:39:53.680 --> 01:39:58.840 of vice and crime and just disorder. You know, there 1769 01:39:58.960 --> 01:40:02.640 there was a famous incident where the LAPD actually took 1770 01:40:02.720 --> 01:40:07.560 up positions on a freeway or a highway coming into 1771 01:40:08.399 --> 01:40:10.079 I guess it wouldn't have been a freeway, but a 1772 01:40:10.239 --> 01:40:13.479 road coming into Los Angeles County to prevent a caravan 1773 01:40:13.680 --> 01:40:16.720 of OKI's from coming into La County because they didn't 1774 01:40:16.720 --> 01:40:20.640 want them there. And so, you know, these are these 1775 01:40:20.640 --> 01:40:23.319 are the kind of things that these are the kind 1776 01:40:23.359 --> 01:40:26.199 of things that happened in a country like ours. You know, 1777 01:40:26.239 --> 01:40:29.760 there's a reason that the Russians, for example, the Russian 1778 01:40:30.039 --> 01:40:33.239 the Russian Empire. You know, people hear about how you know, 1779 01:40:33.359 --> 01:40:37.479 Jews were restricted to the pale offf Settlement. They could 1780 01:40:37.479 --> 01:40:39.359 only live in the palist Settlement, which is a huge, 1781 01:40:39.439 --> 01:40:43.000 huge piece of territory. But you know, the Russians understood 1782 01:40:43.039 --> 01:40:45.600 that they were running an empire. The fact that they 1783 01:40:45.600 --> 01:40:48.640 had all these different people, by definition, you're kind of 1784 01:40:48.720 --> 01:40:52.199 running an empire by that point. And so you know, 1785 01:40:52.319 --> 01:40:53.920 it wasn't just the Jews who had to stay in 1786 01:40:53.960 --> 01:40:57.239 the pale of settlement. The Tatars had to stay over there. 1787 01:40:57.319 --> 01:40:59.560 Everybody had to stay because they knew that once they 1788 01:40:59.560 --> 01:41:03.359 start all everybody just move around, you're going to get conflict, 1789 01:41:03.359 --> 01:41:04.960 and they didn't want to deal They didn't want to 1790 01:41:05.000 --> 01:41:08.960 have to deal with that, you know, And I mean, 1791 01:41:09.800 --> 01:41:13.920 you know, after they started to loosen those rules actually 1792 01:41:14.039 --> 01:41:16.399 in the late nineteen hundreds, he did start to get 1793 01:41:16.439 --> 01:41:18.840 a late eighteen hundreds, he did start to get conflict. 1794 01:41:19.520 --> 01:41:22.399 And that conflict was I had a lot to do 1795 01:41:22.520 --> 01:41:25.239 with the Jews starting to move over to the United States. 1796 01:41:25.640 --> 01:41:28.439 So you know, you read about like a lot of 1797 01:41:28.439 --> 01:41:32.880 the pugroms that happened in the Russian Empire starting in 1798 01:41:32.880 --> 01:41:36.560 the eighteen eighties, and you get the impression sometimes from 1799 01:41:36.600 --> 01:41:38.880 reading them, unless you read like a deep history of it, 1800 01:41:38.920 --> 01:41:41.000 that these are just like a bunch of Russians who 1801 01:41:41.079 --> 01:41:45.359 hate Jews attacking the Jews, and when a lot of 1802 01:41:45.359 --> 01:41:48.079 the times it was actually like you know, like you're 1803 01:41:48.079 --> 01:41:53.119 in Odessa and it's the Greek community there that is 1804 01:41:53.600 --> 01:41:56.600 in direct competition with the Jews who have now moved 1805 01:41:56.640 --> 01:41:59.159 in there for all of these industries that they used 1806 01:41:59.159 --> 01:42:00.960 to dominate, so that it's the source of the conflict, 1807 01:42:01.000 --> 01:42:03.199 and they were the ones kind of leading a pogrom there. 1808 01:42:03.239 --> 01:42:05.880 You see that a lot. You know, these are just 1809 01:42:05.920 --> 01:42:09.359 the difficulties again of trying to manage a diverse society. 1810 01:42:09.520 --> 01:42:14.760 And you know when you when you're way of trying 1811 01:42:14.800 --> 01:42:17.279 to manage that is to just not let anybody talk 1812 01:42:17.319 --> 01:42:21.079 about it, not let anybody voice their frustrations or their fears. 1813 01:42:22.079 --> 01:42:25.760 You know, things build up under the surface until enough 1814 01:42:25.800 --> 01:42:27.399 pressure builds up that they blow out. 1815 01:42:28.359 --> 01:42:31.720 Yeah, I've talked about the the Odessa program and of 1816 01:42:31.800 --> 01:42:36.039 nineteen oh five before, and how the United States government 1817 01:42:36.199 --> 01:42:43.720 sanctioned Zar Nicholas over that. And you're like why, It's 1818 01:42:43.760 --> 01:42:47.880 like who who in the government is telling who's manned 1819 01:42:47.920 --> 01:42:51.199 into the government? Is like, we neeed to sanction this country, 1820 01:42:51.399 --> 01:42:54.399 this little city because of this something that happened halfway 1821 01:42:54.399 --> 01:42:56.520 around the world. But I wanted to go back to 1822 01:42:56.560 --> 01:42:58.399 something that you had talked about. You had talked about 1823 01:42:58.439 --> 01:43:02.800 how the NAACP was basically started by Jews, funded by Jews, 1824 01:43:02.920 --> 01:43:04.640 and why. 1825 01:43:07.000 --> 01:43:10.159 You know, that's a good question. It's an interesting one. 1826 01:43:10.239 --> 01:43:15.920 I mean, on one level, you can understand why Jews 1827 01:43:15.920 --> 01:43:19.760 were involved with the civil rights movement, sort of identified 1828 01:43:19.800 --> 01:43:22.840 with the plight of black people in America before anybody else. 1829 01:43:24.760 --> 01:43:29.399 A huge part of their of Jewish identity is tied up, 1830 01:43:29.840 --> 01:43:34.479 excuse me, in their sense of being like history's victims. 1831 01:43:34.880 --> 01:43:38.119 You know, that's a you know, before the twentieth century, 1832 01:43:38.640 --> 01:43:41.079 that was their religious identity. You know, there were slaves 1833 01:43:41.079 --> 01:43:44.479 in Egypt and then they kept getting exiled and chased around, 1834 01:43:44.560 --> 01:43:47.960 and that really was like the basis of their group 1835 01:43:48.039 --> 01:43:50.279 identity in a lot of ways. You get up to 1836 01:43:50.319 --> 01:43:53.239 the twentieth century and I saw a it's like a 1837 01:43:53.279 --> 01:43:56.399 pew or gallop pull that took place several years ago 1838 01:43:57.000 --> 01:44:00.920 where they were asking Jews around the cunt what they 1839 01:44:00.960 --> 01:44:04.239 thought the basis of like Jews, the primary basis of 1840 01:44:04.319 --> 01:44:08.039 Jewish identity was it was like, you know, belief in 1841 01:44:08.079 --> 01:44:13.279 the Torah, you know, affinity for the state of Israel, 1842 01:44:13.560 --> 01:44:16.399 the Holocaust, remembering the Holocaust was like it got like 1843 01:44:16.439 --> 01:44:19.920 seventy percent. And so you have like an identity that 1844 01:44:20.039 --> 01:44:23.039 is that is very much based on a sense of victimhood. 1845 01:44:23.079 --> 01:44:27.239 And you can understand why they would identify with another 1846 01:44:27.279 --> 01:44:29.920 group of people who were you know, clearly second class 1847 01:44:29.920 --> 01:44:32.279 citizens as they were you know in certain ways in 1848 01:44:32.319 --> 01:44:38.079 the Russian Empire, although that gets overplayed in many many ways, 1849 01:44:38.560 --> 01:44:41.880 but you can understand where that certain sympathy would come from. 1850 01:44:43.039 --> 01:44:44.800 Part of it probably also has a lot to do 1851 01:44:44.880 --> 01:44:47.319 with the fact that the Eastern Jews who were coming over, 1852 01:44:47.399 --> 01:44:50.960 you know, they were coming at a time when when 1853 01:44:51.000 --> 01:44:55.439 like revolutionary and socialist revolutionary politics had just consumed the 1854 01:44:55.520 --> 01:45:00.479 Jewish community, especially the young people. You read about another 1855 01:45:01.279 --> 01:45:04.520 there was a letter from that same Zionist leader, High Invitzman, 1856 01:45:05.119 --> 01:45:08.520 who's writing to another Zionist leader about how he was 1857 01:45:09.000 --> 01:45:12.920 over in Poland trying to get people to trying to 1858 01:45:12.920 --> 01:45:15.199 find young Jews to convince him to be Zionists, why 1859 01:45:15.239 --> 01:45:17.239 they need to come down to Palestine and so forth. 1860 01:45:17.439 --> 01:45:20.319 He says, I can't find any. Says every stutle I 1861 01:45:20.399 --> 01:45:22.920 go to, every village I go to, there's a bunch 1862 01:45:22.920 --> 01:45:25.399 of kids, there's a bunch of old people. All the 1863 01:45:25.479 --> 01:45:28.079 young people have left. They're all Communists now, or they're 1864 01:45:28.119 --> 01:45:31.199 all you know, involved in some movement like this now. 1865 01:45:31.239 --> 01:45:34.600 That's why, you know. In nineteen twenty five, Winston Churchill 1866 01:45:34.640 --> 01:45:42.279 wrote that that article Communism versus Bolshevism versus Zionism, and 1867 01:45:42.319 --> 01:45:44.119 it's pretty hilarious to read today. 1868 01:45:44.439 --> 01:45:47.319 It reads like, well, especially when you know, especially when 1869 01:45:47.319 --> 01:45:48.520 you know the history of World War two. 1870 01:45:49.319 --> 01:45:53.960 Yeah, yeah, in Churchill specifically, right, but you know he 1871 01:45:54.600 --> 01:45:57.119 you read it today and just with the level of 1872 01:45:57.159 --> 01:46:00.640 knowledge most people have about these issues today reads like 1873 01:46:00.680 --> 01:46:05.039 an insane John Birch conspiracy screed or something, but it's 1874 01:46:05.079 --> 01:46:08.680 really not, you know. And he was presenting the question 1875 01:46:08.960 --> 01:46:12.760 to English readers the way that Jews, like Zionist Jews, 1876 01:46:12.760 --> 01:46:16.159 were presenting it to them to their own people, which 1877 01:46:16.199 --> 01:46:20.560 is that everybody there was not a neutral Jew young 1878 01:46:20.680 --> 01:46:22.520 a young person. As far as the young people went 1879 01:46:22.640 --> 01:46:26.079 left in the Palist settlement, that's probably an exaggeration, but 1880 01:46:26.119 --> 01:46:28.960 not much of one. They were all either going over 1881 01:46:29.000 --> 01:46:31.560 into like communists and left wing politics, or they were 1882 01:46:31.560 --> 01:46:34.039 becoming Zions And it really was like a battle for 1883 01:46:34.119 --> 01:46:38.960 the Jewish soul in a way. And you know, uh, 1884 01:46:39.279 --> 01:46:41.800 that sense of that sense of being history as victims, 1885 01:46:42.119 --> 01:46:44.800 I think probably did have a lot to do with 1886 01:46:45.039 --> 01:46:48.239 the sympathy that they that they had for blacks, but 1887 01:46:48.359 --> 01:46:52.000 it also ended up becoming the source of a lot 1888 01:46:52.000 --> 01:46:56.439 of you know, black animosity toward Jews, because the simple 1889 01:46:56.479 --> 01:46:58.840 fact of the matter was that you know, for everything 1890 01:46:58.880 --> 01:47:04.159 we hear today about university quotas and some social club 1891 01:47:04.239 --> 01:47:06.720 that you know didn't allow Jewish members or something that 1892 01:47:06.880 --> 01:47:09.760 Jews did find in the United States from the time 1893 01:47:09.800 --> 01:47:14.520 they got here, you know, there were they certainly didn't 1894 01:47:14.960 --> 01:47:21.399 face any any more obstacles to their integration and success 1895 01:47:21.479 --> 01:47:27.000 than like the Irish or the Italians did, and they integrated. 1896 01:47:27.000 --> 01:47:28.800 By the time you get up into the twentieth century, 1897 01:47:28.840 --> 01:47:31.680 when the civil rights movement really gets going, you know, 1898 01:47:32.520 --> 01:47:36.399 it could really grate on like a black activist to hear, 1899 01:47:37.800 --> 01:47:39.640 you know, a Jewish student who had come down to 1900 01:47:39.680 --> 01:47:43.119 Mississippi from the summer off from Columbia, you know, or 1901 01:47:43.159 --> 01:47:46.079 Harvard coming down and being like, yeah, you know, I'm 1902 01:47:46.119 --> 01:47:48.680 just like you, like I totally understand what you're going 1903 01:47:48.680 --> 01:47:52.520 through because I'm Jewish and you know, so it eventually 1904 01:47:52.640 --> 01:47:54.840 ended up leading to a lot of the problems, you know, 1905 01:47:54.920 --> 01:47:57.279 that sense of like, you know, who are you kidding? 1906 01:47:57.439 --> 01:47:59.359 Like that's that's ridiculous. 1907 01:48:00.079 --> 01:48:04.319 You had mentioned earlier the Great Migration. Can you say 1908 01:48:04.760 --> 01:48:10.880 when that was? And the numbers and yeah, so. 1909 01:48:13.680 --> 01:48:17.000 When the First World War broke out, you know, all 1910 01:48:17.039 --> 01:48:19.399 those cities in the North that you think of today 1911 01:48:19.439 --> 01:48:25.159 as being like centers of black life in America, you know, Baltimore, Philly, 1912 01:48:25.760 --> 01:48:31.319 New York, Chicago, Detroit, Saint Louis, all of them. The 1913 01:48:32.359 --> 01:48:36.319 black populations of those cities was typically between like one 1914 01:48:36.479 --> 01:48:40.399 and at the highest like maybe five percent, very small populations. 1915 01:48:40.680 --> 01:48:42.920 Ninety five percent of all the black people in the 1916 01:48:42.960 --> 01:48:47.840 country still lived in the rural south. And the First 1917 01:48:47.840 --> 01:48:50.640 World War comes along, and we send millions of men, 1918 01:48:51.359 --> 01:48:54.560 white men over into the trenches in Europe and working 1919 01:48:54.600 --> 01:48:58.239 administrative jobs for the military, and they have to leave 1920 01:48:58.399 --> 01:49:02.800 their industrial jobs right at a time when the industrial 1921 01:49:02.840 --> 01:49:06.359 base is expanding hugely because of the war. And so, 1922 01:49:06.760 --> 01:49:09.520 you know, everybody hears about Rosie the Riveter during World 1923 01:49:09.560 --> 01:49:11.680 War Two. You know, the women moving into the workforce, 1924 01:49:11.720 --> 01:49:15.199 and that did happen to a degree, but the black 1925 01:49:15.319 --> 01:49:19.439 population being brought up into the north to be integrated 1926 01:49:19.479 --> 01:49:23.079 into the industrial workforce was really the primary way that 1927 01:49:23.119 --> 01:49:27.359 they filled it. And so starting with the First World 1928 01:49:27.399 --> 01:49:31.520 War in nineteen seventeen, you start getting a large migration. 1929 01:49:31.680 --> 01:49:34.239 It kind of becomes a flood very quickly, because you know, 1930 01:49:34.319 --> 01:49:36.199 one goes up there and he finds a job, and 1931 01:49:36.239 --> 01:49:39.199 he sends for others, and you know, they write back 1932 01:49:39.279 --> 01:49:41.199 about how great it is up there with no Jim 1933 01:49:41.279 --> 01:49:45.239 Crow or whatever. Because things really hadn't started to deteriorate 1934 01:49:45.279 --> 01:49:46.960 the way they would by the time you get to 1935 01:49:47.000 --> 01:49:50.960 the fifties and sixties, and so it becomes a big flood. 1936 01:49:51.000 --> 01:49:55.960 You know. You read like Isabella Patterson's book The Warmth 1937 01:49:56.000 --> 01:49:58.560 of other Sons, which is about the Great Migration, and 1938 01:49:58.600 --> 01:50:03.199 it you know, it portrayed. It's a totally very like 1939 01:50:03.319 --> 01:50:06.199 Its angle is like this was the experience of these 1940 01:50:06.239 --> 01:50:09.199 black families and stuff as they were making this trip 1941 01:50:09.239 --> 01:50:11.159 and this transition, right, and so that's what it is, 1942 01:50:11.199 --> 01:50:12.840 and you get you know, one of the things she 1943 01:50:12.880 --> 01:50:16.600 talks about is how once this got going and started building, 1944 01:50:16.600 --> 01:50:18.399 I mean, it was just a mad rush out of 1945 01:50:18.399 --> 01:50:21.359 the South and you had big spikes during the First 1946 01:50:21.359 --> 01:50:24.600 World War, continued you know, lowered a little bit, but 1947 01:50:24.640 --> 01:50:28.319 continued until the Second World War, and then you know, 1948 01:50:29.319 --> 01:50:32.000 I think we had something like sixteen or seventeen million 1949 01:50:32.680 --> 01:50:35.880 men called up for the Second World War, serving in 1950 01:50:36.000 --> 01:50:39.159 various capacities, and most of those were white men because 1951 01:50:39.720 --> 01:50:43.760 the you know, the armed forces were still segregated, and 1952 01:50:43.800 --> 01:50:46.920 so that created a huge hole. Part of it was 1953 01:50:46.920 --> 01:50:49.880 filled by Rosie the Riveter. A much larger part of 1954 01:50:49.920 --> 01:50:53.640 it was filled by a huge influx of black people 1955 01:50:53.680 --> 01:50:55.520 coming from the South. I mean, you read about like, 1956 01:50:57.199 --> 01:51:00.279 you know, like that neighborhood of Brownsville, where Podhort was 1957 01:51:00.279 --> 01:51:04.239 from and where that teacher strike took place in. I 1958 01:51:04.239 --> 01:51:07.119 won't get the year exactly right, but it's like nineteen 1959 01:51:07.199 --> 01:51:10.800 fifty five. As late as nineteen fifty five, it's still 1960 01:51:10.840 --> 01:51:14.199 like seventy percent Jewish and Italian. You get up to 1961 01:51:14.279 --> 01:51:16.880 nineteen sixty five or I think nineteen sixty seven, so 1962 01:51:16.920 --> 01:51:20.359 like a decade later, it's ninety six percent black in 1963 01:51:20.399 --> 01:51:24.800 Puerto Rican. I mean, you're talking about a massive influx, 1964 01:51:24.840 --> 01:51:28.359 you know, eight hundred thousand people moving into New York 1965 01:51:28.439 --> 01:51:30.239 over the course of like a decade and a half. 1966 01:51:30.439 --> 01:51:37.079 Just huge, and it obviously overwhelmed the city's ability to 1967 01:51:37.159 --> 01:51:39.319 absorb these people. You know, they didn't have places for 1968 01:51:39.359 --> 01:51:45.319 them to live, they didn't have you know, enough school facilities, 1969 01:51:45.319 --> 01:51:47.680 they didn't have the infrastructure to handle all this, you know, 1970 01:51:47.800 --> 01:51:50.960 especially since these people were coming up like the Irish 1971 01:51:50.960 --> 01:51:54.000 in the mid nineteenth century. You know, these are primarily 1972 01:51:54.159 --> 01:51:58.359 like illiterate sharecroppers from the rural South, many of whom 1973 01:51:58.359 --> 01:52:02.760 had never seen a big metropolis like New York City, 1974 01:52:02.920 --> 01:52:06.439 you know, and let alone lived in one or participated in, 1975 01:52:07.039 --> 01:52:09.960 you know, the complex credit economy that was developing in 1976 01:52:10.000 --> 01:52:13.079 the cities or you know, being subject to sort of 1977 01:52:13.960 --> 01:52:20.199 regimented industrial labor, you know, and they struggled, you know, 1978 01:52:20.319 --> 01:52:24.119 just like the Irish struggled. And you know, by the 1979 01:52:24.159 --> 01:52:26.680 time you get up to the to the fifties and sixties, 1980 01:52:27.000 --> 01:52:31.359 as white flights like really taken hold the you know, 1981 01:52:31.399 --> 01:52:34.279 you have these neighborhoods that are again like ninety ninety 1982 01:52:34.319 --> 01:52:38.079 five percent black and a smattering of Puerto Ricans in them. 1983 01:52:39.119 --> 01:52:43.239 And you know, all of the businesses, primarily all of 1984 01:52:43.279 --> 01:52:46.880 the professional jobs like teachers and civil servants and various 1985 01:52:46.880 --> 01:52:49.399 things that are still in those places. Most of the 1986 01:52:49.439 --> 01:52:57.640 cops are still white. And you know, it's a if 1987 01:52:57.640 --> 01:53:00.399 somebody were to ask me, like, could this have gone 1988 01:53:00.439 --> 01:53:03.800 any differently? I don't know if it really could have 1989 01:53:03.880 --> 01:53:08.000 gone any better than it did. I mean without without 1990 01:53:08.439 --> 01:53:11.119 our political system just being completely different than it was. 1991 01:53:11.319 --> 01:53:13.960 You know, if we had a political system that in 1992 01:53:14.079 --> 01:53:19.680 nineteen sixty one, you know, through a hood over Malcolm 1993 01:53:19.800 --> 01:53:21.520 X's head and dump them off in the middle of 1994 01:53:21.520 --> 01:53:24.800 the ocean, maybe you could deal with this a little 1995 01:53:24.800 --> 01:53:27.920 bit differently. But in our society where it's sort of 1996 01:53:27.960 --> 01:53:31.000 open two demagogues and people who were going to stir 1997 01:53:31.119 --> 01:53:34.279 up anger for their own sort of for their own reasons. 1998 01:53:34.359 --> 01:53:38.920 Very very difficult, I think too, you know, especially because 1999 01:53:39.000 --> 01:53:42.800 like it was just it was inevitable that the black 2000 01:53:42.840 --> 01:53:45.920 people who were coming up from the rural South, it 2001 01:53:46.000 --> 01:53:47.800 was inevitable they were going to be at the bottom 2002 01:53:47.840 --> 01:53:49.920 of the social scale. You know, they didn't have any 2003 01:53:50.039 --> 01:53:53.720 skills that were applicable to city life. Most of them 2004 01:53:53.720 --> 01:53:58.319 couldn't read, you know, taking taking discrimination like completely out 2005 01:53:58.359 --> 01:54:00.399 of the picture. Like they were going to be at 2006 01:54:00.439 --> 01:54:02.399 the bottom, just like the Irish were at the bottom 2007 01:54:02.439 --> 01:54:05.720 when they came in the eighteen fifties. And you actually 2008 01:54:05.800 --> 01:54:08.760 see like before you get up to the era that 2009 01:54:08.920 --> 01:54:11.159 you know, the build up toward the sixties, it started 2010 01:54:11.159 --> 01:54:12.880 in the fifties, but before you get to that air 2011 01:54:12.960 --> 01:54:17.680 Have you ever seen that show Boardwalk Empire? Yes, yeah, 2012 01:54:17.720 --> 01:54:22.840 so you know that black white right, Yeah, So the 2013 01:54:22.880 --> 01:54:26.119 way his wife behaves with her kids and stuff. You 2014 01:54:26.119 --> 01:54:27.920 remember that that was That's a real thing. 2015 01:54:28.039 --> 01:54:28.399 There was. 2016 01:54:28.640 --> 01:54:31.600 There was that immigrant mentality of like we need to 2017 01:54:33.279 --> 01:54:36.039 we need to assimilate into this society. We need to 2018 01:54:36.039 --> 01:54:39.880 be more prim and proper and more orderly and everything 2019 01:54:39.960 --> 01:54:42.640 than the whites. So that we can like assimilate into 2020 01:54:42.640 --> 01:54:46.439 this society. But her husband, who's like kind of more 2021 01:54:47.039 --> 01:54:51.239 more street, you know, uh, he goes along, he lets 2022 01:54:51.239 --> 01:54:53.399 her kind of run the household. But every time something 2023 01:54:53.439 --> 01:54:56.880 like this comes up, you know he did, he voices 2024 01:54:56.920 --> 01:54:59.520 his displeasure. You know, he sees it as you know, 2025 01:54:59.640 --> 01:55:02.359 selling out and bowing to the white man and everything. 2026 01:55:02.359 --> 01:55:06.159 And it's like, you know, look, given the history of 2027 01:55:06.239 --> 01:55:10.399 blacks in this country, like I understand where that mentality 2028 01:55:10.439 --> 01:55:13.960 comes from. You know, like there's there's a certain level 2029 01:55:14.000 --> 01:55:21.159 of like inevitable historical shame that comes with the fact, 2030 01:55:21.319 --> 01:55:25.520 you know, the simple fact that you know, your your whole, 2031 01:55:25.960 --> 01:55:28.680 your whole, all of your ancestors were slaves of the 2032 01:55:28.680 --> 01:55:31.880 people who you now live around in whose society you're 2033 01:55:31.920 --> 01:55:35.159 trying to integrate into, right, and so you can understand 2034 01:55:35.159 --> 01:55:37.680 where that resentment comes from. But it's very it's very 2035 01:55:37.720 --> 01:55:40.720 counterproductive and in his mentality when you get up into 2036 01:55:40.760 --> 01:55:43.119 the fifties and sixties, you know, of resenting all that 2037 01:55:43.239 --> 01:55:45.399 is selling out to the white man and everything became 2038 01:55:45.520 --> 01:55:48.520 dominant by the time you get to the sixties, and 2039 01:55:48.560 --> 01:55:52.199 so I mean you really start to see like you 2040 01:55:52.279 --> 01:55:56.119 start to see, uh, just writings from very prominent like 2041 01:55:56.199 --> 01:55:59.640 black intellectuals in the nineteen sixties. Who are you know 2042 01:55:59.720 --> 01:56:01.640 they say this stuff today, But it all started in 2043 01:56:01.640 --> 01:56:06.399 the sixties about how, you know, things like kids disruptive 2044 01:56:06.439 --> 01:56:09.520 behavior in schools, like well, that's you're holding them to 2045 01:56:09.600 --> 01:56:13.399 white standards or just all of these other different things. 2046 01:56:13.399 --> 01:56:17.840 It's like that is just an objectively like you're going 2047 01:56:17.880 --> 01:56:20.279 down a very bad road, you know, and you're not 2048 01:56:20.359 --> 01:56:23.359 going to make much progress with that kind of mentality. 2049 01:56:23.439 --> 01:56:25.800 Even if it even if you can sympathize with or 2050 01:56:25.880 --> 01:56:28.479 understand where it came from, it definitely derailed them. I mean, 2051 01:56:28.520 --> 01:56:31.800 if you look at pretty much any statistic you want 2052 01:56:31.840 --> 01:56:34.720 to look at for Black Americans from the Civil from 2053 01:56:34.720 --> 01:56:39.439 the end of the Civil War up through about like 2054 01:56:39.520 --> 01:56:43.960 the mid fifties to the early sixties, everything you want 2055 01:56:43.960 --> 01:56:48.119 to look at, from wealth to just everything, it's up, up, up, up, 2056 01:56:48.199 --> 01:56:51.159 up up up. And then you hit the sixties, when 2057 01:56:52.000 --> 01:56:54.680 you get the Civil Rights Act, you get the Voting 2058 01:56:54.760 --> 01:56:58.399 Rights Act, you get this sort of mass consciousness among 2059 01:56:58.920 --> 01:57:01.720 white America that this is an issue that maybe needs 2060 01:57:01.720 --> 01:57:04.760 to be addressed. And you know, so you would expect 2061 01:57:04.840 --> 01:57:08.520 if it was going up before it would just skyrocket 2062 01:57:08.560 --> 01:57:11.199 at this point. But you can look at those graphs 2063 01:57:11.239 --> 01:57:14.720 and you start with the sixties and everything just collapses, 2064 01:57:15.760 --> 01:57:19.279 and it's collapsed, you know really to the present day. 2065 01:57:19.479 --> 01:57:23.520 I mean, it's you know, things like crime rates obviously 2066 01:57:23.560 --> 01:57:28.000 have decreased since the nineteen nineties, but you know the 2067 01:57:28.399 --> 01:57:32.439 proportion of who's committing the crimes really is not changed. 2068 01:57:33.520 --> 01:57:36.560 And you know that's something that like we talk about 2069 01:57:36.560 --> 01:57:40.239 white flight. You know, people just people today really don't 2070 01:57:40.239 --> 01:57:44.560 have any they don't have like a real understanding of 2071 01:57:44.600 --> 01:57:47.159 what it's like. I mean, you just have to imagine, 2072 01:57:47.159 --> 01:57:49.640 like my wife's Armenian, right, and so over here in 2073 01:57:49.680 --> 01:57:53.319 Glendale and Los Angeles, that's the Armenian neighbor There's buildings 2074 01:57:53.319 --> 01:57:55.560 with Armenian writing all over them, and you know there's 2075 01:57:55.600 --> 01:57:58.840 other people there, but that's there are more Armenians in 2076 01:57:58.880 --> 01:58:02.199 Glendale than there are in any place in the world 2077 01:58:02.279 --> 01:58:04.680 other than Yerevon. And you know the capital of Armenia, 2078 01:58:04.800 --> 01:58:07.319 it's little Armena. It's what it is. And so you know, 2079 01:58:07.359 --> 01:58:09.840 you just imagine a place like that or a China town. 2080 01:58:10.079 --> 01:58:13.079 You know, something that over the course of ten years 2081 01:58:13.319 --> 01:58:18.319 is ninety five percent plaque and all the crime is 2082 01:58:18.319 --> 01:58:22.199 being committed by this new group of people. All of 2083 01:58:22.239 --> 01:58:25.319 the disorder, you know, is being committed by these this 2084 01:58:25.640 --> 01:58:28.760 new group of people, and you're gonna have real issues. 2085 01:58:28.800 --> 01:58:35.359 I mean, you know, and you know, people were people 2086 01:58:35.359 --> 01:58:37.399 were afraid. I mean, you know, like it doesn't matter 2087 01:58:37.439 --> 01:58:40.520 how how liberal you are, when your when your kid 2088 01:58:40.600 --> 01:58:43.520 comes home with, you know, having taken a baseball bat 2089 01:58:43.560 --> 01:58:45.319 to the head at school that day, you're going to 2090 01:58:45.359 --> 01:58:48.960 start looking for you know, for rental or real estate 2091 01:58:49.000 --> 01:58:51.560 ads in the suburbs, you know. And that's really what 2092 01:58:51.640 --> 01:58:54.239 happened in the sixties. Well started in the fifties, but 2093 01:58:55.159 --> 01:58:57.479 but was completed by the sixties. 2094 01:58:58.479 --> 01:59:02.199 When you look at Brown Versus of Education nineteen fifty four, 2095 01:59:03.800 --> 01:59:06.520 we know who wrote it. They have Jewish last names. 2096 01:59:06.760 --> 01:59:11.880 They wanted to for whatever reason, not going to point 2097 01:59:11.920 --> 01:59:15.840 any fingers and say anything, you know, say it was 2098 01:59:15.840 --> 01:59:20.720 for nefarious reasons, but they wanted to integrate the schools. 2099 01:59:21.199 --> 01:59:29.199 And almost immediately it became evident that that was a really, 2100 01:59:29.319 --> 01:59:35.840 really bad idea. And I mean, how do we how 2101 01:59:35.840 --> 01:59:37.760 do we talk about that? I mean I've been talking 2102 01:59:37.760 --> 01:59:40.960 about it by reading a book that takes place in 2103 01:59:41.000 --> 01:59:43.640 the late sixties, but starts in nineteen fifty eight talking 2104 01:59:43.680 --> 01:59:49.720 about the formation of the New York City Teachers' Union 2105 01:59:49.920 --> 01:59:56.000 the UFT, and what happened, I mean, what happened. It 2106 01:59:56.079 --> 02:00:00.239 was sure there were crime rates that were out of control, 2107 02:00:00.720 --> 02:00:06.920 but there was not this the military. It's the militancy 2108 02:00:07.039 --> 02:00:11.119 that really really did this in And where did that 2109 02:00:11.159 --> 02:00:12.720 militancy come from? 2110 02:00:12.800 --> 02:00:17.439 Though, you know, I think part of it had to 2111 02:00:17.479 --> 02:00:25.600 do with before the before the mid sixties. You know, 2112 02:00:25.720 --> 02:00:29.159 the whole focus of the black rights movement in America 2113 02:00:29.239 --> 02:00:33.439 was all on the South, and this was you know 2114 02:00:33.479 --> 02:00:35.439 that that was a problem that you could look at, 2115 02:00:35.520 --> 02:00:38.880 and it was a very concrete problem, right from the 2116 02:00:38.920 --> 02:00:41.439 standpoint of like the people who were pushing integration, like 2117 02:00:41.479 --> 02:00:44.000 it was a very concrete problem to fix. And the 2118 02:00:44.039 --> 02:00:48.039 black people in the South, you know, they may have 2119 02:00:48.119 --> 02:00:51.079 resented Jim Crow, they may have resented, you know, just 2120 02:00:51.239 --> 02:00:54.960 the whole situation down there, but just over the years 2121 02:00:55.920 --> 02:00:57.920 had kind of learned to live with it a little 2122 02:00:57.920 --> 02:01:01.760 bit and learned, you know, like there was I was 2123 02:01:01.800 --> 02:01:06.000 reading recently this story of this book about the Black 2124 02:01:06.039 --> 02:01:09.239 Liberation Army, and in the early seventies they were running 2125 02:01:09.239 --> 02:01:12.000 around killing cops and one of them, mentions that he's 2126 02:01:12.039 --> 02:01:14.520 interviewing one of them, and he talks about how he 2127 02:01:14.560 --> 02:01:17.680 would always drive whenever they were going somewhere because him, 2128 02:01:17.760 --> 02:01:19.880 being from the South, had manners when it came to 2129 02:01:19.880 --> 02:01:22.279 white people because he's yes, sir, no, sir, you know 2130 02:01:22.319 --> 02:01:25.399 how to talk like that. Whereas his buddies who were 2131 02:01:25.399 --> 02:01:27.439 in the car with them, who grew up in you know, 2132 02:01:27.479 --> 02:01:30.640 the Bronx, they didn't have any of that. And you 2133 02:01:30.760 --> 02:01:33.159 kind of get an this is something that like, I 2134 02:01:33.199 --> 02:01:35.640 don't I don't think I've ever seen anybody else really 2135 02:01:36.079 --> 02:01:38.960 point out, but I think it. I think it's definitely 2136 02:01:39.079 --> 02:01:41.359 got a lot to do with it is you know, 2137 02:01:41.399 --> 02:01:44.800 any group of immigrants, and I'm gonna call the blacks 2138 02:01:44.800 --> 02:01:48.439 of the Great Migration immigrants just because I mean, shoot, 2139 02:01:48.439 --> 02:01:52.720 when you're moving from Louisiana to Los Angeles or Oakland, 2140 02:01:52.760 --> 02:01:56.560 I mean, that's a much larger migration than moving from 2141 02:01:56.840 --> 02:01:59.399 you know, Greece to Italy or something, right in terms 2142 02:01:59.399 --> 02:02:04.840 of and it's probably just as culturally shocking. And you know, 2143 02:02:04.960 --> 02:02:10.079 the when when other immigrant groups would come in, Oh gosh, 2144 02:02:10.119 --> 02:02:13.920 I lost my train of thought. Put that aside. I 2145 02:02:14.000 --> 02:02:20.079 was gonna say that bail me out here. I'll think 2146 02:02:20.079 --> 02:02:20.359 of it. 2147 02:02:22.399 --> 02:02:25.600 Well, we were talking, we're talking about segregation, well we're 2148 02:02:25.640 --> 02:02:28.760 talking about integration. Integrating the schools said it was easier 2149 02:02:28.760 --> 02:02:32.199 on the side. Then you started talking about the about 2150 02:02:32.239 --> 02:02:35.119 the book you were reading, and how. 2151 02:02:35.319 --> 02:02:37.960 Right right, right, right right, So you know that he 2152 02:02:38.039 --> 02:02:41.560 had those Southern manners. And I haven't seen anybody else 2153 02:02:41.600 --> 02:02:44.560 really kind of put this out in a direct way, 2154 02:02:44.600 --> 02:02:47.560 but I think people have probably thought about it at 2155 02:02:47.640 --> 02:02:50.800 least is you know, any any immigrant group that comes 2156 02:02:50.840 --> 02:02:53.439 into a place, usually you hear this all the time 2157 02:02:53.479 --> 02:02:56.159 when people point out, like today they're talking about Latin 2158 02:02:56.199 --> 02:02:58.319 American immigrants and they say, oh, they have a lower 2159 02:02:58.399 --> 02:03:03.279 crime rate than, you know, than American citizens. And it's like, okay, 2160 02:03:03.319 --> 02:03:06.319 that's true, but what about their kids, because that's a 2161 02:03:06.319 --> 02:03:08.720 different situation. That is when you really start to see 2162 02:03:08.720 --> 02:03:10.359 that kind of thing. And you really saw that with 2163 02:03:10.479 --> 02:03:12.720 the you know, because immigrants, you come into a place 2164 02:03:12.720 --> 02:03:14.640 and you're trying to get along. You know, you're trying 2165 02:03:14.680 --> 02:03:17.520 to find your little place and keep your head down 2166 02:03:17.640 --> 02:03:20.800 and you know, work and raise your family. Plus if 2167 02:03:20.840 --> 02:03:23.640 you are an immigrant who's coming from a place, you know, 2168 02:03:23.800 --> 02:03:27.560 as a refugee of some kind, you know, even an 2169 02:03:27.600 --> 02:03:31.600 economic refugee or something. Whatever things are like in the 2170 02:03:31.600 --> 02:03:33.840 new country is probably somewhat better than it was in 2171 02:03:33.880 --> 02:03:35.800 the old country, So you don't you know, that's what 2172 02:03:35.840 --> 02:03:39.439 you have to compare to. And so the black migrants 2173 02:03:39.600 --> 02:03:44.000 who came up into the North and South from the South, 2174 02:03:44.399 --> 02:03:46.880 you know, these are people who had lived their lives 2175 02:03:46.920 --> 02:03:49.159 and their parents had lived their lives in the South 2176 02:03:49.239 --> 02:03:52.760 where they understood that there were you know, the bad 2177 02:03:52.800 --> 02:03:55.359 things happened if you pissed off the white people, and 2178 02:03:55.479 --> 02:03:58.000 there was just a certain level of deference that they 2179 02:03:58.039 --> 02:04:02.920 may have resented but had sort of learned to just 2180 02:04:03.479 --> 02:04:05.119 it was just a part of the way they approached 2181 02:04:05.159 --> 02:04:05.520 the world. 2182 02:04:05.600 --> 02:04:05.800 Right. 2183 02:04:06.600 --> 02:04:10.159 And their kids, you know, were the kids who grew 2184 02:04:10.239 --> 02:04:14.119 up beating the shit out of Norman pod Hortz at school, right, 2185 02:04:14.439 --> 02:04:18.039 and and they realized that, you know, they didn't have 2186 02:04:18.079 --> 02:04:21.000 to be afraid of white people that you know, most 2187 02:04:21.000 --> 02:04:23.920 of the time white people were afraid of them. You know, 2188 02:04:23.960 --> 02:04:26.079 that's one of the dirty secrets kind of of like 2189 02:04:26.199 --> 02:04:29.159 modern America, is that most white people are afraid of 2190 02:04:29.199 --> 02:04:32.800 black people. Liberals, conservatives, they really are. You don't see 2191 02:04:32.800 --> 02:04:35.479 it as much in the South, Southerners, it's not so true. 2192 02:04:35.920 --> 02:04:37.640 But up in the up in the in the cities, 2193 02:04:38.039 --> 02:04:41.319 your average white person is afraid of black people, and 2194 02:04:41.359 --> 02:04:43.479 not just because they could call them, you know, a 2195 02:04:43.560 --> 02:04:45.439 racist and get them in trouble or something. There's just 2196 02:04:45.479 --> 02:04:49.720 a certain you know, there's a fear there that a 2197 02:04:49.720 --> 02:04:51.439 lot of people have, you know, and I noticed it 2198 02:04:51.479 --> 02:04:53.720 because I grew up around black people and so I 2199 02:04:53.760 --> 02:04:57.159 have a comfort with them that is kind of bone deep. 2200 02:04:57.239 --> 02:05:01.479 But you know that second generations started to come of 2201 02:05:01.520 --> 02:05:06.680 age in the late fifties, early sixties, and so now 2202 02:05:06.720 --> 02:05:10.840 you have these young adult black kids who never lived 2203 02:05:10.840 --> 02:05:14.520 in the South, who grew up watching their parents kind 2204 02:05:14.560 --> 02:05:18.039 of be deferential to the white people, and you know, 2205 02:05:18.439 --> 02:05:23.439 didn't like seeing that. But now they're eighteen, nineteen, twenty 2206 02:05:23.520 --> 02:05:26.399 years old, and they grew up you know, again in 2207 02:05:26.479 --> 02:05:29.680 the mix mixed race schools with white kids who were 2208 02:05:29.680 --> 02:05:32.000 afraid of getting beaten up by them, and they didn't 2209 02:05:32.039 --> 02:05:36.039 have any of that fear, and so there was you know, 2210 02:05:36.079 --> 02:05:39.239 you would never have seen a I want to say never, 2211 02:05:39.319 --> 02:05:41.199 but like it would have been very rare for a 2212 02:05:41.239 --> 02:05:45.680 first generation black migrant from the South to you know, 2213 02:05:45.920 --> 02:05:48.880 to talk back to or let alone get violent with 2214 02:05:48.920 --> 02:05:51.239 a police officer in the north, just like would be 2215 02:05:51.319 --> 02:05:56.199 very rare because they understood, like you know, or they 2216 02:05:56.319 --> 02:05:59.279 probably they assumed something. It probably wasn't so true that 2217 02:05:59.319 --> 02:06:02.520 they would be real consequences for that, and you know, 2218 02:06:02.560 --> 02:06:04.439 their kids just didn't think that way, and they were 2219 02:06:04.520 --> 02:06:08.479 much more willing to uh to just yeah, get wild. 2220 02:06:08.520 --> 02:06:10.319 I guess let's. 2221 02:06:10.079 --> 02:06:12.840 Get into it. Let's get into the riots in the sixties. 2222 02:06:14.159 --> 02:06:17.439 Yeah, the first the first real race, right, I think, like, 2223 02:06:17.600 --> 02:06:19.840 you know, at least at a real scale, was probably 2224 02:06:19.880 --> 02:06:23.239 Harlem in nineteen sixty four, and it wasn't huge compared 2225 02:06:23.279 --> 02:06:26.199 to what you'd see the next year in Watts or 2226 02:06:26.600 --> 02:06:30.600 or the rest of the decade, but you know, that happened. 2227 02:06:30.640 --> 02:06:32.880 You asked, like, where the militancy came from? This, you know, 2228 02:06:32.960 --> 02:06:35.239 something I've been reading about lately, and it's hard to 2229 02:06:35.279 --> 02:06:37.680 find really good stuff on it, but I have been 2230 02:06:37.920 --> 02:06:42.039 finding a few things. There was certainly like an element 2231 02:06:42.319 --> 02:06:46.359 in the rise in black militancy. How great of a 2232 02:06:46.399 --> 02:06:48.439 factor it was, I'm still trying to hash out. But 2233 02:06:48.520 --> 02:06:52.960 an element was definitely a communist subversion, you know, like 2234 02:06:53.000 --> 02:06:56.319 the American Communist Party in that nineteen sixty four Harlem riot. 2235 02:06:56.840 --> 02:06:59.760 You know, there's a there's a famous black activist who 2236 02:07:00.800 --> 02:07:03.199 you know, he told a reporter or he was given 2237 02:07:03.239 --> 02:07:05.359 a speech maybe in a reporter heard it that if 2238 02:07:05.359 --> 02:07:09.439 he had one hundred dedicated black militants who were black guerrillas, 2239 02:07:09.439 --> 02:07:12.039 who were ready to die for the cause, they could 2240 02:07:12.079 --> 02:07:13.920 burn the whole city down. And like they were talking 2241 02:07:13.920 --> 02:07:16.640 about that guy was one of the leaders of the 2242 02:07:16.800 --> 02:07:19.560 New York branch of the Communist Party of America, right, 2243 02:07:19.880 --> 02:07:21.600 And you see this a lot in a lot of 2244 02:07:21.600 --> 02:07:24.920 these riots where the people who are primarily inciting them 2245 02:07:25.399 --> 02:07:32.239 have not sort of indirect but direct affiliations with the CPUSA, 2246 02:07:32.760 --> 02:07:34.680 And so that might be I have something to do 2247 02:07:34.720 --> 02:07:37.640 with it as well when you get up to you know, 2248 02:07:38.199 --> 02:07:41.800 a book by Rick Pearlstein Nixon Land, who you know, 2249 02:07:41.800 --> 02:07:44.640 I don't agree with his politics or anything, but sometimes 2250 02:07:44.680 --> 02:07:48.359 you still find good historical anecdotes. You know, he talks 2251 02:07:48.399 --> 02:07:51.880 about how he talks about this period in nineteen sixty four, 2252 02:07:52.000 --> 02:07:55.800 sixty five when burned sixty five, when Lyndon Johnson had, 2253 02:07:55.880 --> 02:08:00.520 you know, won the presidency easily and they're about to 2254 02:08:00.560 --> 02:08:02.640 pass the Voting Rights Act, and there's this peer you 2255 02:08:02.680 --> 02:08:07.600 read the rhetoric from Lyndon Johnson from you know, just senators, 2256 02:08:07.640 --> 02:08:10.720 other you know, major leaders, and they're still talking like 2257 02:08:10.760 --> 02:08:15.760 the future that's coming is this star trek Jetson's just utopia, 2258 02:08:16.000 --> 02:08:18.239 you know, and they really still thought that up till 2259 02:08:18.279 --> 02:08:21.319 like sixty five. And it's very interesting because you know, 2260 02:08:21.680 --> 02:08:24.479 Lyndon Johnson gave like the most famous speech of his 2261 02:08:24.600 --> 02:08:27.319 career on the eve of the passage of the Voting 2262 02:08:27.399 --> 02:08:32.319 Rights Act and in sixty five, which was happening at 2263 02:08:32.319 --> 02:08:35.079 the same time that the Selma marches were going on, 2264 02:08:35.800 --> 02:08:40.279 and it's just a I mean, it's almost like a 2265 02:08:40.399 --> 02:08:42.840 it's a sermon more than it is a speech, really, 2266 02:08:42.880 --> 02:08:44.880 you know, I mean, it really is just this soaring 2267 02:08:44.960 --> 02:08:49.760 rhetoric and everything. And one week later, the Wats riot 2268 02:08:49.840 --> 02:08:52.760 and Los Angeles broke out. And this was something that, 2269 02:08:52.920 --> 02:08:55.520 like you know, the Harlem riot in sixty four didn't 2270 02:08:55.520 --> 02:08:58.039 get a lot of national publicity. It was something that 2271 02:08:58.079 --> 02:09:00.880 New Yorkers knew about, but most people outside of there didn't. 2272 02:09:01.239 --> 02:09:03.640 The watch were right. It was so huge, and the 2273 02:09:03.680 --> 02:09:09.359 aggression was so intense, and the level of devastation that 2274 02:09:09.399 --> 02:09:13.319 people were seeing was so overwhelming. I mean, you had 2275 02:09:13.399 --> 02:09:16.039 you know, because this was a uh, this was a 2276 02:09:16.079 --> 02:09:19.159 televised riode. It was the first major televised ride in 2277 02:09:19.159 --> 02:09:22.239 America you had, you know, So people were glued to 2278 02:09:22.279 --> 02:09:26.359 their screens for four or five days watching live footage 2279 02:09:26.399 --> 02:09:30.039 of you know, firefighters trying to put out fires and 2280 02:09:30.119 --> 02:09:33.720 getting attacked by mobs, and the mobs dancing around the 2281 02:09:33.720 --> 02:09:38.640 burning building, you know, and you know, or watching footage 2282 02:09:38.680 --> 02:09:41.960 from a from a TV news helicopter that suddenly has 2283 02:09:42.000 --> 02:09:44.720 to veer away because it's taking small arms fire from 2284 02:09:44.760 --> 02:09:46.600 the ground, you know. And so people are watching this 2285 02:09:46.760 --> 02:09:50.199 and they're like, you know, if you read like Christopher 2286 02:09:50.199 --> 02:09:53.840 Colwell's book Age of Entitlement, for example, he really does 2287 02:09:53.840 --> 02:09:57.039 a great job of showing how when Americans passed the 2288 02:09:57.079 --> 02:10:00.600 Civil Rights Act, they looked at that almost is like 2289 02:10:00.640 --> 02:10:04.319 a foreign policy issue. There was this very specific problem 2290 02:10:04.439 --> 02:10:08.640 in the South where you know, the southern institutions, the 2291 02:10:08.640 --> 02:10:12.920 governments and stuff down there were denying black people rights 2292 02:10:12.960 --> 02:10:16.039 that the Supreme Court had said that they have, and 2293 02:10:16.520 --> 02:10:19.840 you've got to give the federal government certain special emergency 2294 02:10:19.880 --> 02:10:22.800 powers to deal with this crisis. Basically, right, That's how 2295 02:10:22.800 --> 02:10:26.640 people saw it, and they didn't understand they were bringing in, 2296 02:10:26.880 --> 02:10:29.800 you know, the way Caldwell puts it, is a rival constitution, 2297 02:10:30.079 --> 02:10:34.319 you know, and just a whole new approach to politics 2298 02:10:34.359 --> 02:10:37.399 in America. Really was was inaugurated with the passage of 2299 02:10:37.399 --> 02:10:41.920 the Civil Rights Act, and you know, so that happened. 2300 02:10:41.920 --> 02:10:44.279 You have, like, you know, the Civil Rights Act passes 2301 02:10:44.319 --> 02:10:47.600 in sixty four. Again, most people outside the South see 2302 02:10:47.600 --> 02:10:50.199 that as almost a foreign policy issue for those people 2303 02:10:50.239 --> 02:10:52.880 over there. And then you have the Voting Rights Act, 2304 02:10:52.920 --> 02:10:55.119 same thing, that's how people are seeing it. And then 2305 02:10:55.159 --> 02:10:57.359 you have one week after the Voting Rights Act, you 2306 02:10:57.399 --> 02:11:00.359 have the Watch Riots and it's nationally televised and are 2307 02:11:00.439 --> 02:11:04.359 starting to realize that like, oh, this is actually, you know, 2308 02:11:04.439 --> 02:11:07.479 this isn't just a Southern problem, This isn't everybody problem. 2309 02:11:08.119 --> 02:11:12.039 And you know, the way the Wats riots were covered 2310 02:11:12.880 --> 02:11:17.159 and the way they were sort of taken up by 2311 02:11:17.199 --> 02:11:20.399 black militants at that point, and the fact that the 2312 02:11:20.439 --> 02:11:23.800 older civil rights leaders, you know generation, the Martin Luther 2313 02:11:23.880 --> 02:11:26.279 King generation, by the time you get up really after 2314 02:11:26.279 --> 02:11:28.720 the passage of the Voting Rights Act, really was on 2315 02:11:28.760 --> 02:11:33.319 the decline, you know, because what could be achieved in 2316 02:11:33.359 --> 02:11:35.960 the South had been achieved by those two laws. You know, 2317 02:11:36.000 --> 02:11:39.199 that was the thinking, and so they shifted their focus 2318 02:11:39.239 --> 02:11:41.640 to the North, and it was just clear immediately that 2319 02:11:42.199 --> 02:11:47.520 you know that these guys were not prepared for they 2320 02:11:47.560 --> 02:11:49.520 didn't have any answers for the black people in the 2321 02:11:49.560 --> 02:11:52.159 North because these weren't problems of like you can't vote, 2322 02:11:52.319 --> 02:11:55.880 or you're not allowed to go in to that, to 2323 02:11:55.960 --> 02:11:58.520 that establishment or something. I mean, these were much more 2324 02:11:58.640 --> 02:12:04.800 complicated socio economic and social friction issues that a march 2325 02:12:05.000 --> 02:12:07.119 was really not going to do a whole lot to fix. 2326 02:12:07.199 --> 02:12:07.359 Right. 2327 02:12:07.399 --> 02:12:10.319 So you see, like in nineteen sixty six when King 2328 02:12:10.399 --> 02:12:14.279 goes up to Marquette Park in Chicago, they didn't achieve 2329 02:12:14.359 --> 02:12:18.359 anything there. You know, the white people, or I think, 2330 02:12:18.399 --> 02:12:21.880 as I understand it, the neighborhood he was trying to integrate. 2331 02:12:22.399 --> 02:12:24.279 You know, people think of it as a white neighborhood today, 2332 02:12:24.319 --> 02:12:26.920 and the white people came out and counter protested and everything, 2333 02:12:27.159 --> 02:12:29.720 but that really it was actually a Lithuanian neighborhood. It 2334 02:12:29.720 --> 02:12:33.680 was a Lithuanian Catholic parish neighborhood. And I think King 2335 02:12:34.119 --> 02:12:36.640 probably didn't even understand that, I think, because in the 2336 02:12:36.680 --> 02:12:39.039 South that's not how it was. You know, in the South, 2337 02:12:39.199 --> 02:12:43.000 racial politics was the order of the day, right, I mean, 2338 02:12:43.039 --> 02:12:45.920 because that's just how people thought based on you know, 2339 02:12:46.000 --> 02:12:48.359 I mean the you know, because mainly because all of 2340 02:12:48.359 --> 02:12:51.119 the Euroethnics that started to mass immigrate into the US 2341 02:12:51.119 --> 02:12:53.439 in the eighteenth and nineteenth century, they didn't move to 2342 02:12:53.479 --> 02:12:55.880 the south. They moved to the northern cities. And so 2343 02:12:55.880 --> 02:12:58.319 whereas you had ethnic politics in the north, you had 2344 02:12:58.399 --> 02:13:01.920 racial politics in the south. And so when you know, 2345 02:13:02.079 --> 02:13:05.720 King goes up to Chicago into this Lithuanian Catholic parish 2346 02:13:05.960 --> 02:13:10.920 and he's trying to you know, integrate the neighborhood, you know, 2347 02:13:11.039 --> 02:13:14.159 they they see this as an attack on them specifically, 2348 02:13:14.279 --> 02:13:17.279 and and it you know, the really interesting thing is, 2349 02:13:17.319 --> 02:13:19.000 I'm working on a piece about this right now, is 2350 02:13:19.119 --> 02:13:21.319 in a lot of ways it really was, you know, 2351 02:13:21.439 --> 02:13:26.640 the the wasp establishment in the country. You know, they 2352 02:13:26.760 --> 02:13:30.000 really did see John Lindsay, the mayor of New York 2353 02:13:30.000 --> 02:13:34.399 in sixty five, his first Welfare commissioner, guy named Morris, 2354 02:13:34.520 --> 02:13:37.079 He actually uses the term battering ram. He says, We're 2355 02:13:37.079 --> 02:13:39.399 you going to use the black migrants as a battering 2356 02:13:39.520 --> 02:13:43.560 ram to break up these little ethnic enclaves that creates 2357 02:13:43.600 --> 02:13:45.960 so much you know, political corruption. As they see it 2358 02:13:46.039 --> 02:13:48.760 and all this stuff, and so they really they really 2359 02:13:48.800 --> 02:13:51.960 did view it that way. And there's a lot there. 2360 02:13:52.079 --> 02:13:55.359 I got a whole list of quotes and examples and 2361 02:13:55.359 --> 02:13:56.880 stuff that I'm going to put out in this piece 2362 02:13:57.720 --> 02:14:01.800 about how direct and aggressive like this was an attack 2363 02:14:02.000 --> 02:14:06.119 on primarily Catholic but ended up in New York at 2364 02:14:06.199 --> 02:14:10.760 least being Jewish communities as well. And you know, so 2365 02:14:10.800 --> 02:14:15.439 what ended up happening eventually just partly because you know, 2366 02:14:15.479 --> 02:14:18.760 the like we were talking about this before we got 2367 02:14:18.960 --> 02:14:21.600 on the air, you go to a place like New York, 2368 02:14:21.640 --> 02:14:24.600 which is so fascinating if you want to learn about 2369 02:14:24.640 --> 02:14:29.720 the history of like American ethnic politics, right, it's you know, 2370 02:14:29.840 --> 02:14:32.239 you had if you go back to the nineteen fifties 2371 02:14:32.239 --> 02:14:35.399 and you read the liberals in New York talking about 2372 02:14:36.000 --> 02:14:38.960 what do we do about this huge influx of black migrants. 2373 02:14:38.960 --> 02:14:41.840 You know, these people are struggling, there's all these things. 2374 02:14:42.000 --> 02:14:43.760 How are we going to deal with this? And they 2375 02:14:43.760 --> 02:14:48.640 were all very optimistic that, Okay, you had Jews, they 2376 02:14:48.640 --> 02:14:52.840 had their neighborhoods and their interests and certain elements of 2377 02:14:53.319 --> 02:14:56.680 you know, the social service jobs like the teachers for example, 2378 02:14:56.760 --> 02:15:00.399 that were theirs. The Irish there got their neighbor hoods, 2379 02:15:00.399 --> 02:15:03.279 and there's certain like parts of the government that everybody 2380 02:15:03.359 --> 02:15:05.319 kind of understands the Irish or kind of you know, 2381 02:15:05.640 --> 02:15:08.199 and they were the cops and the firefighters. The Italians 2382 02:15:08.199 --> 02:15:10.680 got the construction contracts with the city, and they ran 2383 02:15:10.800 --> 02:15:13.520 waste management, and that the Blacks would come in and 2384 02:15:13.600 --> 02:15:15.960 kind of take their place as one of the ethnicities 2385 02:15:16.039 --> 02:15:20.239 in New York City. And what happened was the influx 2386 02:15:20.319 --> 02:15:25.319 was so big and ended up being so disruptive and 2387 02:15:25.479 --> 02:15:29.159 so traumatic for all of the people who were affected 2388 02:15:29.199 --> 02:15:33.640 by it that it really, you know, it like the 2389 02:15:34.119 --> 02:15:36.399 Great Migration kind of really put an end to ethnic 2390 02:15:36.520 --> 02:15:40.760 politics in America, which again was part of part of 2391 02:15:40.760 --> 02:15:42.840 that was on purpose, like that's something that the WASP 2392 02:15:43.000 --> 02:15:45.800 wanted to accomplish, you know, and it really did put 2393 02:15:45.800 --> 02:15:48.319 an end to it. You don't really hear anything about, 2394 02:15:48.680 --> 02:15:51.119 you know, there's little things here and there, with the 2395 02:15:51.119 --> 02:15:53.199 exception of Jews actually because they you know, they're the 2396 02:15:53.199 --> 02:15:56.119 one group that didn't when they moved out to the suburbs, 2397 02:15:56.159 --> 02:15:58.880 didn't just become kind of white people, you know, Like 2398 02:15:58.920 --> 02:16:02.239 there's Irish American now who are going to be celebrating 2399 02:16:02.319 --> 02:16:06.960 drinking green beer this weekend. But you know, I mean 2400 02:16:07.000 --> 02:16:10.079 it's not there, it's not the core of their identity. 2401 02:16:10.119 --> 02:16:12.800 And in a way that being like a like a 2402 02:16:13.119 --> 02:16:16.520 Jewish American is so important to their identity. And so, 2403 02:16:17.239 --> 02:16:21.279 you know, it imported the sort of southern racial perspective 2404 02:16:21.359 --> 02:16:24.359 into the northern cities where previously there had been like 2405 02:16:24.399 --> 02:16:27.680 an ethnic perspective on how politics works. And you had 2406 02:16:27.720 --> 02:16:31.119 all of these people who you know, lived in the 2407 02:16:31.159 --> 02:16:35.040 neighborhoods where the black people were moving in. And you know, 2408 02:16:35.200 --> 02:16:37.000 of course, you know, these are poor black people, and 2409 02:16:37.040 --> 02:16:39.559 so they're moving into neighborhoods that they can afford to 2410 02:16:39.600 --> 02:16:42.360 live in. And so those are typically the neighborhoods that 2411 02:16:42.520 --> 02:16:46.159 immigrants of the previous generation, you know, lived in. A 2412 02:16:46.159 --> 02:16:48.920 lot of them just buying their first house after their parents. 2413 02:16:48.920 --> 02:16:53.120 You know, you're some Italian. Your father was an Italian immigrant, 2414 02:16:53.760 --> 02:16:56.120 worked on the docs his whole life, you know, and 2415 02:16:56.159 --> 02:16:59.399 now you, as his son, you work in like waste 2416 02:16:59.399 --> 02:17:01.920 management this city. And you bought a house, you know, 2417 02:17:02.040 --> 02:17:03.879 your fall you grew up in a tenement building with 2418 02:17:03.920 --> 02:17:06.719 like all the other Italian immigrants. Now you bought your 2419 02:17:06.760 --> 02:17:09.280 own house, and that's what your whole neighborhood is it's 2420 02:17:09.319 --> 02:17:13.280 a bunch of your people, you know, Italian Catholics with 2421 02:17:13.319 --> 02:17:16.079 an Italian Catholic church like in the center of the 2422 02:17:16.120 --> 02:17:18.840 neighborhood that everybody goes to and it's a center of 2423 02:17:18.879 --> 02:17:22.520 community life. And you know, all of this, and then 2424 02:17:22.719 --> 02:17:26.280 all of a sudden, you get this massive influx of 2425 02:17:26.319 --> 02:17:31.680 people from the South who again are just very you know, 2426 02:17:31.719 --> 02:17:35.840 their their habits were It's not just black people. Like again, 2427 02:17:35.879 --> 02:17:39.520 you go back to the Okis, you know out in California, 2428 02:17:39.559 --> 02:17:43.200 everybody saw them as disruptive and they they were. You 2429 02:17:43.280 --> 02:17:46.600 had the big apple Achian migration up into some of 2430 02:17:46.639 --> 02:17:49.760 the Midwestern cities like Detroit in the mid twentieth century, 2431 02:17:49.799 --> 02:17:52.239 and it's the same thing. They were disruptive. You know, 2432 02:17:52.239 --> 02:17:55.639 these are rural Southerners had more of like an honor culture, 2433 02:17:55.840 --> 02:17:58.600 you know, so if you if they you know, you 2434 02:17:58.639 --> 02:18:00.600 insult them, you're more likely to get punched in the 2435 02:18:00.639 --> 02:18:04.000 face than reported to the principle. And the blacks were 2436 02:18:04.040 --> 02:18:06.159 like that too, you know, they had that mentality, and 2437 02:18:06.200 --> 02:18:09.319 then they had some racial resentment and animosity built on 2438 02:18:09.360 --> 02:18:11.840 top of that. So you got all these people who 2439 02:18:11.840 --> 02:18:15.120 lived in these neighborhoods who you know, they all scattered, 2440 02:18:15.159 --> 02:18:18.079 they all moved out to the suburbs which were being 2441 02:18:18.079 --> 02:18:20.840 thrown up after the war. And now you know, you 2442 02:18:20.840 --> 02:18:22.760 don't live in a parish community you're in you're a 2443 02:18:22.760 --> 02:18:26.399 second generation Italian and over here is like a wasp 2444 02:18:26.479 --> 02:18:29.680 neighbor and over there is you know, just your whole 2445 02:18:29.680 --> 02:18:32.000 neighborhood's mixed, and your kids go to a public school 2446 02:18:32.040 --> 02:18:35.879 that's not primarily anything, and all of those people, the 2447 02:18:35.920 --> 02:18:40.200 exception of Jews, you know, kind of stopped being Irish 2448 02:18:40.239 --> 02:18:43.079 or Italian or anything like that and became white people. 2449 02:18:44.079 --> 02:18:47.959 And you know, that's really kind of the shape that 2450 02:18:48.040 --> 02:18:51.399 politics has kept ever since then, where you know, now 2451 02:18:51.399 --> 02:18:55.360 there's more more more people other than blacks who are 2452 02:18:55.479 --> 02:18:57.639 non white people in the country, whereas back then it 2453 02:18:57.719 --> 02:18:59.879 was like pretty much ninety percent to ten percent of 2454 02:19:00.159 --> 02:19:04.440 smattering of others. And so you have like the you know, 2455 02:19:04.520 --> 02:19:07.000 the very phrase people of color. I mean, that's something 2456 02:19:07.000 --> 02:19:10.159 that divides the world into two halves. You got white 2457 02:19:10.159 --> 02:19:14.840 people and you got everybody else. And you know, again 2458 02:19:14.879 --> 02:19:17.399 it's it's it's a really interesting thing to read about. 2459 02:19:17.399 --> 02:19:21.680 How you know, the the we talk about like segregation 2460 02:19:21.799 --> 02:19:23.879 in the northern cities, and we think, like of racial 2461 02:19:23.879 --> 02:19:28.440 segregation in the northern cities, that this was like just 2462 02:19:28.520 --> 02:19:32.680 this profound evil that had to be eradicated and changed. 2463 02:19:32.920 --> 02:19:34.799 The people who lived in those cities. The way they 2464 02:19:34.799 --> 02:19:37.239 sawt is, the city's always been segregated. You know, the 2465 02:19:37.239 --> 02:19:39.360 Italians live over the air, the Irish live over the air, 2466 02:19:39.399 --> 02:19:42.479 the Jews live over there in between, you know, there's 2467 02:19:42.840 --> 02:19:45.280 mixed neighborhoods and so forth. But like that's how it 2468 02:19:45.360 --> 02:19:50.760 has always worked. And you know, so they they just 2469 02:19:50.760 --> 02:19:54.360 didn't under they didn't understand like why where this push 2470 02:19:54.559 --> 02:19:57.319 was coming from, you know, to break up their neighborhoods 2471 02:19:57.360 --> 02:20:00.680 like this, and uh yeah, I mean, and it's you know, 2472 02:20:00.719 --> 02:20:06.280 the consequences of the Great Migration, the problems that resulted 2473 02:20:06.280 --> 02:20:09.360 from it, you know, et cetera, like have pretty pretty 2474 02:20:09.440 --> 02:20:14.040 much defined domestic politics in the US since the early 2475 02:20:14.079 --> 02:20:16.799 twentieth century, so like since the First World War. I mean, 2476 02:20:17.239 --> 02:20:21.120 just there's been other issues, obviously, but the overriding issue 2477 02:20:21.479 --> 02:20:26.639 in the country domestically speaking, has been the racial question 2478 02:20:26.799 --> 02:20:28.520 ever since then. And it's you know, and that's a 2479 02:20:28.559 --> 02:20:33.479 result of like people, you know, people have this idea 2480 02:20:33.520 --> 02:20:36.559 that because like you know, New York City or something 2481 02:20:36.680 --> 02:20:40.559 was run by by white people that they just didn't 2482 02:20:40.559 --> 02:20:42.760 care about the black people that were in those cities, 2483 02:20:42.760 --> 02:20:45.399 and that's you know, why they didn't get social services 2484 02:20:45.440 --> 02:20:47.719 or why their schools were bad or whatever. That is 2485 02:20:47.799 --> 02:20:50.120 just not true at least in most of the big cities. 2486 02:20:50.159 --> 02:20:53.520 I mean, when you look at the amount of attention 2487 02:20:53.719 --> 02:20:56.600 and in local politics that was spent on how do 2488 02:20:56.639 --> 02:20:59.079 we fix this, the amount of money that was spent, 2489 02:20:59.399 --> 02:21:03.799 you could really get like the Great Society Programs in 2490 02:21:03.920 --> 02:21:06.719 sixty five was really like an attempt. It was like 2491 02:21:06.760 --> 02:21:09.600 it was almost a bailout of the cities by the 2492 02:21:09.639 --> 02:21:11.600 federal government. They were like, we need to take some 2493 02:21:11.680 --> 02:21:14.520 of the burden and cost that this is imposing on 2494 02:21:14.600 --> 02:21:17.319 these cities up to the federal level, because you know, 2495 02:21:17.360 --> 02:21:20.479 we're better equipped to handle it. And it's really been 2496 02:21:20.520 --> 02:21:23.600 the case for you know, one hundred years, is this, 2497 02:21:23.840 --> 02:21:26.000 you know, is what to do about it? How to 2498 02:21:26.040 --> 02:21:28.840 fix it? And we've gone through different permutations, right where 2499 02:21:29.200 --> 02:21:32.760 you go through the nineteen sixties and you know, we 2500 02:21:32.799 --> 02:21:35.600 can maybe talk about this next but you know, by 2501 02:21:35.639 --> 02:21:36.920 you get but by the time you get up to 2502 02:21:36.959 --> 02:21:40.760 the late sixties, you have a split between the Jewish 2503 02:21:40.840 --> 02:21:42.399 and Black activist communities. 2504 02:21:43.239 --> 02:21:45.040 First, that's exactly where I wanted to go. 2505 02:21:45.120 --> 02:21:47.600 Yeah, okay, yeah, So for several reasons, you know, partly 2506 02:21:47.639 --> 02:21:54.239 because you know, there were real resentments that resulted from 2507 02:21:54.399 --> 02:21:55.760 you know, you got to you just have to put 2508 02:21:55.799 --> 02:21:57.600 yourself like you go to act like the Freedom Summer, 2509 02:21:57.600 --> 02:21:59.879 and you read about you read the criticisms of some 2510 02:22:00.040 --> 02:22:02.360 and like Stokely Carmichael, you have all these Jewish students 2511 02:22:02.360 --> 02:22:05.840 who come down from the University of Wisconsin and you know, 2512 02:22:05.959 --> 02:22:09.360 Harvard and Columbia and everything. Graduate students, you know, taking 2513 02:22:09.399 --> 02:22:11.520 their summers off to go work in the Freedom Summer 2514 02:22:11.879 --> 02:22:14.399 and they go down there and for every one of them, 2515 02:22:14.440 --> 02:22:17.399 you know, there's thirty black activists who are down there 2516 02:22:17.399 --> 02:22:19.280 in the South community members who were part of this 2517 02:22:19.479 --> 02:22:22.239 part of this thing. And they come down a lot 2518 02:22:22.239 --> 02:22:25.239 of these people, you know, they're illiterate or they're certainly 2519 02:22:25.280 --> 02:22:27.559 not educated, you know at all. They don't have any 2520 02:22:27.600 --> 02:22:32.600 experience running movements or organizations like these, you know, university 2521 02:22:32.639 --> 02:22:35.319 activists do. And they would come in and you know, 2522 02:22:35.399 --> 02:22:38.719 like Stokely Carmichael's the big one who he you know, 2523 02:22:38.760 --> 02:22:42.520 he says these people are just pushy, they're condescending, they're 2524 02:22:42.559 --> 02:22:45.520 coming in like trying to I mean, like the SNICK 2525 02:22:45.799 --> 02:22:48.479 Student Non Violent Coordinating Committe, which is the biggest black 2526 02:22:48.520 --> 02:22:54.440 youth movement in the country back then. You know, they 2527 02:22:54.479 --> 02:22:58.079 when they were asking for white students to come down 2528 02:22:58.120 --> 02:23:02.319 and participate, they he didn't want any more than one 2529 02:23:02.399 --> 02:23:06.840 hundred to come down, and they screened the ones that 2530 02:23:07.000 --> 02:23:10.239 came in for what SNICK called They didn't want anybody 2531 02:23:10.280 --> 02:23:13.159 with a John Brown complex. You know, somebody who was 2532 02:23:13.200 --> 02:23:16.120 coming in to save the Southern Negro They didn't want that. 2533 02:23:16.920 --> 02:23:19.959 And you know, word kind of spread what was happening, 2534 02:23:20.000 --> 02:23:22.200 and they got way more than one hundred people, and 2535 02:23:23.120 --> 02:23:25.120 a lot of them had the John Brown complex, and 2536 02:23:25.120 --> 02:23:27.479 that really did kind of happen. It created that resentment 2537 02:23:28.399 --> 02:23:31.479 and as you start to get into the mid sixties, well, 2538 02:23:31.520 --> 02:23:34.399 I think in sixty seven is when The Crisis of 2539 02:23:34.440 --> 02:23:37.840 the Negro Intellectual was published. In that book, I mean, 2540 02:23:37.840 --> 02:23:41.280 he gets pretty direct about how you know, he talks 2541 02:23:41.319 --> 02:23:44.600 about how there's too much Jewish involvement in our movements 2542 02:23:45.079 --> 02:23:47.680 and we're never going to get anywhere until black people 2543 02:23:47.760 --> 02:23:50.680 run the black rights movements. And so there's that and 2544 02:23:50.680 --> 02:23:52.920 then also in nineteen sixty seven, that's when the Sixth 2545 02:23:53.000 --> 02:23:57.959 Day War happened and the global left kind of you know, 2546 02:23:58.000 --> 02:24:04.159 on Moss turned on Israel, and you know, the by 2547 02:24:04.159 --> 02:24:09.799 that point, the the sort of integrationist Martin Luther King 2548 02:24:10.879 --> 02:24:14.680 angle on the black rights movement had really surrendered the 2549 02:24:14.719 --> 02:24:18.159 field to the black power movement that very much identified 2550 02:24:18.159 --> 02:24:21.559 with the Third World. You know, they the rhetoric back 2551 02:24:21.600 --> 02:24:24.399 then was, you know, the French or attacking the Arabs 2552 02:24:24.399 --> 02:24:29.000 in Algeria, were attacking the Vietnamese over in Vietnam, and 2553 02:24:29.879 --> 02:24:32.159 you know right here in America, like we're part of 2554 02:24:32.239 --> 02:24:34.920 all that. When they identified with the Vietnamese, the Algerians 2555 02:24:34.959 --> 02:24:36.760 and so forth as part of the Third World, that 2556 02:24:36.840 --> 02:24:41.239 they were this captive population in America, right And which 2557 02:24:41.319 --> 02:24:44.440 was you know, which was not the approach of the 2558 02:24:44.680 --> 02:24:47.440 of like the Southern Christian Leadership Conference guys. I mean, 2559 02:24:47.479 --> 02:24:49.920 they were very American if they were anything, you know, 2560 02:24:51.959 --> 02:24:54.639 but you know, it's again, it's another thing that's understandable. 2561 02:24:54.680 --> 02:24:56.879 You go, you know, if you're if you were a 2562 02:24:56.920 --> 02:25:00.200 black person in America from the end of the Civil 2563 02:25:00.200 --> 02:25:03.360 War on up until you know, around the fifties or sixties, 2564 02:25:03.639 --> 02:25:08.120 in the twentieth century. You know, your history is not 2565 02:25:08.399 --> 02:25:12.760 really something to write home about. You know, it's something 2566 02:25:12.799 --> 02:25:17.280 that you've been subjugated, You've been second class citizens, You've 2567 02:25:17.319 --> 02:25:20.239 been discriminated against. And you know, now even where you're 2568 02:25:20.280 --> 02:25:22.959 not discriminated against, you're the poorest people in the city. 2569 02:25:23.079 --> 02:25:26.680 And like it's just and so when and then even 2570 02:25:26.719 --> 02:25:29.159 back before slavery, like nobody had ever even heard of 2571 02:25:29.200 --> 02:25:32.440 like an independent black African country. You know, they've been 2572 02:25:32.440 --> 02:25:35.479 colonized for hundreds and hundreds of years, right, and so 2573 02:25:35.559 --> 02:25:38.920 when you started to get these post colonial nationalist movements 2574 02:25:38.920 --> 02:25:44.600 in Africa, you know, uh, leaders like Patrice Lamumba, you know, 2575 02:25:44.639 --> 02:25:47.520 all these were they were idolized in the black community, 2576 02:25:47.600 --> 02:25:50.719 especially in Harlem. And you can understand why. I mean, 2577 02:25:50.719 --> 02:25:52.639 it's like it's you know, you see it today when 2578 02:25:52.680 --> 02:25:55.399 the Black Panther movie comes out, right, that will kind 2579 02:25:55.440 --> 02:25:57.440 of stuff and people laugh at it. I'm laughing a 2580 02:25:57.440 --> 02:25:59.799 little bit now, but I sympathize with it. You know, 2581 02:26:00.040 --> 02:26:05.479 these are a people who you know, Tyrone Jackson is 2582 02:26:05.520 --> 02:26:08.680 not an African name. You know, Tyrone is a county 2583 02:26:08.719 --> 02:26:12.479 in Ireland, Jackson, you know, and so these people lost everything, 2584 02:26:12.479 --> 02:26:15.600 they lost their identity, they lost their religion, they lost 2585 02:26:16.159 --> 02:26:18.440 you know, everything that kind of tied them together, and 2586 02:26:18.520 --> 02:26:21.799 so they're trying to put something back together. I mean, 2587 02:26:21.799 --> 02:26:24.040 I think you see this white people a lot these days, 2588 02:26:24.040 --> 02:26:27.239 because white people have been so deracinated and lost their 2589 02:26:27.280 --> 02:26:31.520 own any sense of their own history or heritage that 2590 02:26:31.600 --> 02:26:33.399 you see people going. I mean, you know, whether it's 2591 02:26:33.440 --> 02:26:36.879 a neo pagan movement or just there, there's a million 2592 02:26:36.879 --> 02:26:39.680 different varieties, and I sympathize with all of them, including 2593 02:26:39.799 --> 02:26:43.120 you know, Wakanda forever, because people need an identity, you know. 2594 02:26:44.159 --> 02:26:48.959 And yeah, so you know, when anyway I was talking 2595 02:26:48.959 --> 02:26:51.639 about Israel Six Day War happens, the global left turns 2596 02:26:51.639 --> 02:26:55.879 on Israel and they start to be viewed as you know, 2597 02:26:55.959 --> 02:26:59.760 not this ragtag state, like refugee state, you know, of 2598 02:26:59.760 --> 02:27:02.159 these people who've been persecuted and carved out a homeland 2599 02:27:02.159 --> 02:27:04.799 for themselves. The global left really started to look at 2600 02:27:04.840 --> 02:27:11.280 them as you know, the front line of white imperialism 2601 02:27:11.479 --> 02:27:16.319 in the colored countries in the global South. And you know, 2602 02:27:16.600 --> 02:27:18.760 by that point again, you know, the third world is 2603 02:27:19.000 --> 02:27:21.760 kind of black militant view of things had really taken 2604 02:27:21.799 --> 02:27:24.360 over in America, and so they went along with that, 2605 02:27:24.639 --> 02:27:27.399 you know, and they absorbed that anti Zionism and that 2606 02:27:27.559 --> 02:27:30.959 really was like the big break because back then, even 2607 02:27:31.079 --> 02:27:33.680 like liberal Jews like today you have, you know now 2608 02:27:33.680 --> 02:27:37.079 that Lekud has been in power for basically forty years straight. 2609 02:27:37.680 --> 02:27:41.520 You know, liberal Jews in America are kind of, at 2610 02:27:41.600 --> 02:27:43.680 least when they're not in a moment of crisis, are 2611 02:27:43.760 --> 02:27:47.079 kind of like touch and go about their relationship with Israel, right, 2612 02:27:47.479 --> 02:27:49.639 But back then that wasn't the case. You know, other 2613 02:27:49.719 --> 02:27:52.159 than some extreme far left Jews like the ones who 2614 02:27:52.280 --> 02:27:55.360 you know made up the Weatherman Crew and everything, which 2615 02:27:55.399 --> 02:28:00.159 were very small in number, all Jews in America were 2616 02:28:00.159 --> 02:28:03.479 affectionate toward toward Israel, and you know, for obvious reasons. 2617 02:28:03.520 --> 02:28:07.360 And so when black people started turning very you know, 2618 02:28:08.040 --> 02:28:11.040 very violently against Israel, that was a huge break. And 2619 02:28:11.040 --> 02:28:14.680 that happened, you know, in sixty seven. That's when SNICK 2620 02:28:14.920 --> 02:28:19.559 expelled all of its white members. And at that point 2621 02:28:19.680 --> 02:28:22.399 those white members were still seventy or eighty percent Jews, 2622 02:28:22.440 --> 02:28:25.680 and they were really expelling their Jewish members, and you know, 2623 02:28:25.719 --> 02:28:28.399 there was actually like at the SNICK conference in sixty seven, 2624 02:28:28.440 --> 02:28:32.239 there was some of the Panthers who were there insisted 2625 02:28:32.239 --> 02:28:35.639 on a vote that the organization take, you know, a 2626 02:28:35.680 --> 02:28:39.159 negative position towards Zionism and Israel. And of course the 2627 02:28:39.159 --> 02:28:42.159 white students protested and stuff, and they expelled them, they 2628 02:28:42.200 --> 02:28:44.719 just kicked them out, and so that starts to happen. 2629 02:28:44.760 --> 02:28:47.719 And I tend to think that, and I may be 2630 02:28:47.840 --> 02:28:50.159 over I may be kind of imposing my own view 2631 02:28:50.200 --> 02:28:51.920 on this. But you know, by the time you get 2632 02:28:51.959 --> 02:28:55.559 you get up to sixty eight and Nixon is elected, 2633 02:28:56.719 --> 02:29:00.680 and you know, he turns this again, and this question 2634 02:29:00.719 --> 02:29:02.799 that really has been the dominant domestic question of the 2635 02:29:02.879 --> 02:29:08.559 last hundred years in America, the racial question. He I said, 2636 02:29:08.559 --> 02:29:11.120 we go through permutations and like variations of how it works. 2637 02:29:11.159 --> 02:29:13.000 We had been in like a period of like how 2638 02:29:13.000 --> 02:29:15.719 do we solve this in a way that brings these 2639 02:29:15.760 --> 02:29:18.600 people into the fold and helps solve all these problems. 2640 02:29:19.000 --> 02:29:21.159 Nixon came in and by that point people were so 2641 02:29:21.319 --> 02:29:26.360 fed up with the riots, with the crime, with you know, 2642 02:29:26.520 --> 02:29:30.440 just everything that it for From that period like on, 2643 02:29:30.760 --> 02:29:33.159 like Nixon approached it as this is primarily a law 2644 02:29:33.200 --> 02:29:36.319 enforcement problem. This isn't a problem for social workers, this 2645 02:29:36.360 --> 02:29:39.559 isn't a problem for you know, psychology. This is this 2646 02:29:39.600 --> 02:29:41.399 is a law enforcement problem, and that's what we're going 2647 02:29:41.479 --> 02:29:44.040 to focus on. So all the Great Society stuff, everything 2648 02:29:44.079 --> 02:29:47.159 that all went away. The cities, of course, had become 2649 02:29:47.280 --> 02:29:50.079 dependent on that federal money from the Great Society by 2650 02:29:50.079 --> 02:29:53.959 that point, and all the cities just you know, they 2651 02:29:54.200 --> 02:29:56.079 were already in bad shape. But you know, you get 2652 02:29:56.120 --> 02:29:59.040 up to the late sixties and they just absolutely fall apart, 2653 02:30:00.000 --> 02:30:04.159 and you see this steady rise in crime through the seventies, 2654 02:30:04.319 --> 02:30:07.079 eighties and up into the early nineties that I think, 2655 02:30:07.159 --> 02:30:10.959 you know, people today, like younger people today, like I 2656 02:30:11.000 --> 02:30:13.520 lived in South LA in nineteen ninety two. I wasn't 2657 02:30:13.559 --> 02:30:15.600 in a riot zone or anything, but I was close enough, 2658 02:30:15.639 --> 02:30:18.280 and I went to school with kids who were. And 2659 02:30:18.440 --> 02:30:20.760 you know, people don't realize that. For example, like the 2660 02:30:20.920 --> 02:30:24.600 in the three years before the La riots, three years 2661 02:30:25.399 --> 02:30:28.360 there were over sixty five hundred drive by shootings in 2662 02:30:28.399 --> 02:30:31.680 Los Angeles County. They didn't all result in deaths or anything, 2663 02:30:31.719 --> 02:30:36.040 but that's like five a day, okay. And when you 2664 02:30:36.079 --> 02:30:39.239 think about the fact that like ninety percent of LA 2665 02:30:39.399 --> 02:30:41.840 had zero drive by shootings, you know, these are all 2666 02:30:41.879 --> 02:30:45.879 taking place in a very tightly concentrated area that is 2667 02:30:46.000 --> 02:30:49.840 as dangerous as you know, the worst part of El 2668 02:30:49.920 --> 02:30:53.479 Salvador before you know, the current president took over, I guess, 2669 02:30:54.040 --> 02:30:56.200 and so you know, people were looking at that and 2670 02:30:56.239 --> 02:30:58.879 they just sort of, you know, the white people who 2671 02:30:58.920 --> 02:31:01.639 had moved out to the suburbs to get away from 2672 02:31:01.639 --> 02:31:04.239 all this, you know, they just didn't want to hear 2673 02:31:04.280 --> 02:31:05.959 about it. They just were like, keep it over there, 2674 02:31:06.079 --> 02:31:08.319 I don't care, and unless it starts to spill out, 2675 02:31:08.520 --> 02:31:11.719 like just have the police deal with it. And it 2676 02:31:11.760 --> 02:31:13.200 gets to the point where again you get up to 2677 02:31:13.280 --> 02:31:17.600 nineteen ninety one, nineteen eighty nine, ninety ninety one, and 2678 02:31:17.639 --> 02:31:20.520 then culminating with the La riots, you know, you have 2679 02:31:22.079 --> 02:31:24.840 like I think New York City today, or I'll use 2680 02:31:24.840 --> 02:31:27.280 Los Angeles because I know that one. Los Angeles had 2681 02:31:27.280 --> 02:31:30.719 like three hundred and fifty murders last year. It had 2682 02:31:30.799 --> 02:31:34.719 like eighteen hundred murders in nineteen ninety one. I mean, 2683 02:31:35.200 --> 02:31:39.760 insane levels of crime and like and it was you know, 2684 02:31:40.799 --> 02:31:42.799 if you look at like the crime statistics, I know 2685 02:31:42.840 --> 02:31:46.079 people always talk about that. You know, you can look 2686 02:31:46.079 --> 02:31:48.879 at it and say, well, yeah, like it's only half 2687 02:31:48.959 --> 02:31:52.079 I mean, it's certainly disproportionate to the population. Like the 2688 02:31:52.159 --> 02:31:56.440 number of murders committed by blacks. Half is a lot 2689 02:31:56.479 --> 02:31:58.959 when you're only fourteen percent of the population or whatever 2690 02:31:59.000 --> 02:32:03.680 it is. But you know, it's it's a very different 2691 02:32:03.719 --> 02:32:05.840 problem than the other half, which are like white or 2692 02:32:05.879 --> 02:32:08.440 Latino murders or something, because you know, like the white 2693 02:32:08.520 --> 02:32:11.000 murders in the country. It's like, all right, this guy 2694 02:32:11.040 --> 02:32:13.600 over in Great Falls, Montana found out his wife was 2695 02:32:13.680 --> 02:32:15.479 cheating on him with this guy and he killed him. 2696 02:32:15.879 --> 02:32:19.200 And then over here in like, you know, northern California, 2697 02:32:19.280 --> 02:32:20.959 there was this white guy who got into a fight 2698 02:32:21.000 --> 02:32:22.280 at a bar and killed the guy. 2699 02:32:22.360 --> 02:32:22.719 Whatever. 2700 02:32:23.479 --> 02:32:27.879 This distributed thing whereas you know, and it can't be 2701 02:32:27.920 --> 02:32:31.799 addressed or solved with the same tools that you need 2702 02:32:31.879 --> 02:32:36.360 when you have this very tight concentration of just total chaos, 2703 02:32:36.920 --> 02:32:38.920 which is what the black neighborhoods had become by the 2704 02:32:38.920 --> 02:32:42.799 early nineties, and you get to like, you know, ninety two, 2705 02:32:43.000 --> 02:32:45.639 like the La riots really were like a kind of 2706 02:32:45.680 --> 02:32:48.120 a last straw kind of moment where people had just 2707 02:32:48.200 --> 02:32:50.680 had enough. And then when you get up to the 2708 02:32:50.719 --> 02:32:53.280 second kind of last straw following right on that, on 2709 02:32:53.360 --> 02:32:56.079 the heels of that was I think people don't today 2710 02:32:56.120 --> 02:32:59.239 don't recognize how important this was that, you know, the 2711 02:32:59.319 --> 02:33:03.360 whole country's attention was glued to the oj Simpson trial 2712 02:33:03.360 --> 02:33:06.360 while that was going on. Everybody was watching that. And 2713 02:33:06.399 --> 02:33:09.719 when it became this situation where you had this guy 2714 02:33:09.719 --> 02:33:14.239 who obviously killed these people, who gets off because you know, 2715 02:33:15.120 --> 02:33:18.239 one of the investigators may have made a comment or 2716 02:33:18.280 --> 02:33:22.040 something at some point in the past unrelated to him 2717 02:33:22.200 --> 02:33:25.840 when that happened. And then after the trial when he 2718 02:33:25.840 --> 02:33:27.920 gets acquitted and you have the news cameras out in 2719 02:33:27.920 --> 02:33:30.719 front of the courthouse and you have just crowds of 2720 02:33:30.719 --> 02:33:33.879 black people out there cheering, we won, We won. I 2721 02:33:33.920 --> 02:33:36.120 really think that was like a major breaking point where 2722 02:33:36.120 --> 02:33:37.959 people were like, you know what, we're We're not dealing 2723 02:33:37.959 --> 02:33:40.440 with this anymore. And you saw a huge turn, you know. 2724 02:33:40.799 --> 02:33:42.120 I mean, I think if you go back to like 2725 02:33:42.200 --> 02:33:44.280 nineteen eighty five, there was something like four hundred and 2726 02:33:44.280 --> 02:33:49.760 fifty thousand people incarcerated in the United States, and it's 2727 02:33:49.799 --> 02:33:51.920 like two million now. And when you count like the 2728 02:33:51.920 --> 02:33:54.200 people who were on probation, in parole and in some 2729 02:33:54.440 --> 02:33:58.200 level of the criminal justice system, I mean, you know, 2730 02:33:58.360 --> 02:34:01.200 it's a uh. I mean, crime has gone down for 2731 02:34:01.239 --> 02:34:04.520 a reason, and it's gone down because we you know, 2732 02:34:04.559 --> 02:34:06.959 and this might be an ugly thing to say, but 2733 02:34:07.079 --> 02:34:11.600 I mean it went down because we you know, put 2734 02:34:11.920 --> 02:34:15.159 a good percentage of the worst people in the black 2735 02:34:15.239 --> 02:34:18.719 underclass in prison or in some level of the criminal 2736 02:34:18.840 --> 02:34:21.920 justice system. I mean, that's what happened. And it's unfortunate, 2737 02:34:21.959 --> 02:34:24.559 I guess, because there's a lot of downstream effects that 2738 02:34:25.079 --> 02:34:27.159 you know, that that causes that are not good. But 2739 02:34:27.639 --> 02:34:29.920 you know, this was a response to a crisis. You know, again, 2740 02:34:29.920 --> 02:34:32.120 you had five drive by shootings a day in la 2741 02:34:32.239 --> 02:34:35.520 over the three years before the ninety two riots, and 2742 02:34:37.079 --> 02:34:38.920 it kind of stayed that way, like all the way 2743 02:34:39.000 --> 02:34:42.920 up until I guess, like Trayvon, you know, or maybe Ferguson, 2744 02:34:42.959 --> 02:34:45.399 when everything started to change again and you start to 2745 02:34:45.399 --> 02:34:50.319 get this nineteen sixties kind of version of how these 2746 02:34:50.319 --> 02:34:55.520 things are approached. And you know, I hope that we 2747 02:34:55.559 --> 02:34:57.639 don't have to go through the same process they went 2748 02:34:57.680 --> 02:35:01.120 through in the sixties, which is that everything just falls 2749 02:35:01.159 --> 02:35:04.600 apart for twenty or twenty five years and gets worse 2750 02:35:04.639 --> 02:35:07.920 and worse, and the city has become unlivable until finally, people, 2751 02:35:08.559 --> 02:35:11.319 you know, decide to throw out John Lindsay and replace 2752 02:35:11.360 --> 02:35:17.959 him with Ed Koch or Juliani or something. But you know, yeah, 2753 02:35:18.000 --> 02:35:19.879 it's gonna be it's gonna be interesting to see how 2754 02:35:19.920 --> 02:35:20.600 that does develop. 2755 02:35:20.639 --> 02:35:23.959 Actually, well, I think yeah, the one thing I'm very 2756 02:35:23.959 --> 02:35:30.079 interested in seeing going forward is just how Black and Jewish, 2757 02:35:30.879 --> 02:35:34.879 how they relate to one another. Still. I mean green Blat, 2758 02:35:34.959 --> 02:35:39.159 Jonathan green Blatt, the president of the ADEL. I don't 2759 02:35:39.280 --> 02:35:43.360 say this because I don't like I say this because 2760 02:35:43.360 --> 02:35:47.120 it's just obvious. He's not the smartest person who ever 2761 02:35:48.040 --> 02:35:52.319 has headed the ADL. His tweets are just insane. I mean, 2762 02:35:52.360 --> 02:35:57.239 the guy is he's pandering to the black community. I've 2763 02:35:57.239 --> 02:36:00.760 seen many many we're in this together, we're in the 2764 02:36:00.840 --> 02:36:05.559 same boat. And then you just see one comment after another. 2765 02:36:05.959 --> 02:36:09.360 Who owned those boats? Talking about the slave ships? Who 2766 02:36:09.399 --> 02:36:11.879 owned those boats? Who owned those boats? Why were the 2767 02:36:11.920 --> 02:36:15.680 slave markets closed on Saturday? And it's like, well, I mean, 2768 02:36:16.520 --> 02:36:21.840 if a billionaire black man is asking questions, and then 2769 02:36:21.840 --> 02:36:25.079 you have Dave Chappelle go on you know, Saturday Alive 2770 02:36:25.120 --> 02:36:30.040 and say there's two words you can't say together, the well, 2771 02:36:30.120 --> 02:36:34.479 I mean, it's gonna it's interesting. It's because if those 2772 02:36:34.520 --> 02:36:38.399 two groups start going to war with one another again, 2773 02:36:38.760 --> 02:36:41.079 and of course this is only on social media now, 2774 02:36:41.079 --> 02:36:44.520 which is probably a good thing because it's not in 2775 02:36:44.559 --> 02:36:50.159 the streets yet, but it's the future is very is 2776 02:36:50.200 --> 02:36:52.239 going to be very interesting when it comes to those 2777 02:36:52.239 --> 02:36:52.959 two groups. 2778 02:36:53.280 --> 02:36:56.799 Yeah, because because one of those is going to say 2779 02:36:56.799 --> 02:36:59.760 that back sorry, in the sixties of one of the 2780 02:36:59.799 --> 02:37:01.399 things I was just going to say, and I'll be 2781 02:37:01.479 --> 02:37:04.920 quick with this one, is that I suspect that the 2782 02:37:05.040 --> 02:37:08.120 loss of Jewish support for the black movement around sixty 2783 02:37:08.120 --> 02:37:13.280 seven sixty eight is like that was a critical part 2784 02:37:13.399 --> 02:37:16.639 of their political support that they really needed to keep 2785 02:37:16.760 --> 02:37:19.200 like a Nixon from going ham on them and stuff. 2786 02:37:19.200 --> 02:37:21.239 And so that's one of the things that I could 2787 02:37:21.239 --> 02:37:23.879 see happening. If there is like a big break, then 2788 02:37:23.920 --> 02:37:26.440 we could maybe go back, you know, in a direction 2789 02:37:26.639 --> 02:37:29.920 of addressing this as a law enforcement problem and kind 2790 02:37:29.920 --> 02:37:33.239 of like more of a nineteen nineties version of addressing 2791 02:37:33.639 --> 02:37:36.280 black crime in the cities and stuff, because they you know, 2792 02:37:36.360 --> 02:37:41.799 the pretty much unanimous support of politically active Jews for 2793 02:37:41.959 --> 02:37:44.120 the black cause. I mean, it's I think that's a 2794 02:37:44.200 --> 02:37:46.639 critical element of the support they need to keep the 2795 02:37:46.680 --> 02:37:50.680 rest of the society from you know, fixing the problem 2796 02:37:50.719 --> 02:37:51.600 in a very different way. 2797 02:37:52.239 --> 02:37:56.399 Yeah, correct, And if they lose that support now, and 2798 02:37:56.799 --> 02:38:01.920 you know, with it seems wherever any major institution, you 2799 02:38:01.959 --> 02:38:06.959 look at, any major industry, there are Jews at the 2800 02:38:07.000 --> 02:38:10.479 top of it. That money. If that money and that 2801 02:38:10.559 --> 02:38:15.760 support stops going into the Black community, then we are well, 2802 02:38:15.799 --> 02:38:18.000 I guess said. The only word I can use is interesting, 2803 02:38:18.079 --> 02:38:21.120 because it's very hard at this point to try to 2804 02:38:21.159 --> 02:38:25.200 figure out exactly how that would play out, considering so 2805 02:38:25.399 --> 02:38:28.639 much of our lives are and so much debate is 2806 02:38:28.760 --> 02:38:33.399 online now instead of at city hall, on the steps 2807 02:38:33.399 --> 02:38:36.600 of city hall, or in the streets in a march. 2808 02:38:37.920 --> 02:38:43.200 Yeah, yep, yeah, you know, I guess The last thing 2809 02:38:43.239 --> 02:38:45.600 I'll say is I think that, like, you know, black 2810 02:38:45.600 --> 02:38:48.159 people in America right now are really kind of on 2811 02:38:48.200 --> 02:38:51.639 the edge of a precipice. I think in a way 2812 02:38:51.719 --> 02:38:55.440 that they haven't been you know, really ever, just because 2813 02:38:56.840 --> 02:39:00.280 you know, the changing demographics of this country, you know, 2814 02:39:01.440 --> 02:39:04.200 due to immigration. I mean, there's a lot of people 2815 02:39:04.280 --> 02:39:06.959 and pretty soon enough, probably a majority of people in 2816 02:39:07.000 --> 02:39:09.360 this country, certainly a majority of people in the cities 2817 02:39:10.120 --> 02:39:13.000 who don't care about slavery, they don't care about Jim Crow, 2818 02:39:13.040 --> 02:39:15.520 they don't identify any of that with themselves. You see 2819 02:39:15.520 --> 02:39:18.319 it in Los Angeles specifically, where you know, you have 2820 02:39:18.360 --> 02:39:20.840 black what used to be black neighborhoods, like back in 2821 02:39:20.879 --> 02:39:23.079 the early nineties, Compton and stuff, those are all Latino 2822 02:39:23.120 --> 02:39:26.559 neighborhoods now. And that transition was not a peaceful one. 2823 02:39:26.639 --> 02:39:30.520 The Latino gangs drove those people out. They firebombed apartment buildings, 2824 02:39:30.559 --> 02:39:32.799 they were just random murders of black people trying to 2825 02:39:32.879 --> 02:39:36.559 drive them out. And you know, the black gangs and 2826 02:39:36.639 --> 02:39:39.280 the black community in general doesn't have the numbers or 2827 02:39:39.319 --> 02:39:41.920 the organization that the Latinos do, and so they got 2828 02:39:42.399 --> 02:39:45.600 you know, when all of the Latino on black violence 2829 02:39:45.600 --> 02:39:48.760 started to subside around like the early to mid two thousands, 2830 02:39:49.280 --> 02:39:51.719 people looked at that as like they celebrated as a victory, 2831 02:39:51.719 --> 02:39:53.920 but it was really just because that job of cleansing 2832 02:39:53.959 --> 02:39:56.040 had been accomplished by that point, you know, and so 2833 02:39:56.120 --> 02:39:59.319 it died down. There's you know, you have situations where 2834 02:40:00.360 --> 02:40:05.479 these things would be going on and Latino local politicians 2835 02:40:05.479 --> 02:40:08.200 in LA would be providing cover for these Latino gangs 2836 02:40:08.200 --> 02:40:10.799 that were driving these people out. They were you know, 2837 02:40:10.959 --> 02:40:13.879 there was a situation in LA where there was this hospital. 2838 02:40:14.000 --> 02:40:17.280 Actually it's a reverse situation of like the thing that 2839 02:40:17.479 --> 02:40:20.040 you know, people were complaining about in the sixties Black 2840 02:40:20.079 --> 02:40:23.000 people were coplaying about in the sixties, which is, you 2841 02:40:23.040 --> 02:40:25.200 had a neighborhood that used to be black. There was 2842 02:40:25.239 --> 02:40:28.120 a hospital there, and most of the employees there were 2843 02:40:28.159 --> 02:40:32.000 black because they were from the community. Over a pretty 2844 02:40:32.000 --> 02:40:36.760 short period of time, that neighborhood became predominantly Latino. Still 2845 02:40:36.760 --> 02:40:39.239 a bunch of black people working at the at the hospital, 2846 02:40:39.440 --> 02:40:43.920 and the Latinos there. The Latino community successfully used affirmative 2847 02:40:43.920 --> 02:40:46.840 action laws to say there shouldn't there, there needs to be 2848 02:40:46.840 --> 02:40:48.719 more Latinos here, and so they used it to drive 2849 02:40:48.840 --> 02:40:52.879 black people out of these good jobs. And so, you know, 2850 02:40:53.040 --> 02:40:56.520 I mean, for all the problems that you know, black 2851 02:40:56.520 --> 02:40:58.479 people have had to face over the over the over 2852 02:40:58.479 --> 02:41:00.799 the years in America, when you got up to the 2853 02:41:00.879 --> 02:41:03.719 nineteen sixties, for all the trouble and all the problems, 2854 02:41:04.239 --> 02:41:07.719 you know, white America as a whole, you know, had 2855 02:41:07.799 --> 02:41:09.760 kind of come around to the idea that like, Okay, 2856 02:41:09.799 --> 02:41:12.000 there needs to be some kind of a resolution of this, 2857 02:41:12.200 --> 02:41:15.840 Like you know, these people have been enslaved, they have 2858 02:41:15.959 --> 02:41:20.239 been second class citizens, and you know, we got to 2859 02:41:20.239 --> 02:41:21.840 do something here, Like something needs to be done and 2860 02:41:21.879 --> 02:41:24.799 people like really were ready for that conversation in the 2861 02:41:24.879 --> 02:41:28.799 nineteen sixties in the America that's coming. You know that 2862 02:41:28.920 --> 02:41:32.600 are nobody is going to care about that. Nobody will 2863 02:41:32.639 --> 02:41:36.760 care they can you know, talk about historical oppression or 2864 02:41:36.799 --> 02:41:40.879 whatever it is. And you know, I think maybe actually, 2865 02:41:41.399 --> 02:41:45.280 like the uh, maybe the tipping point, like something you 2866 02:41:45.280 --> 02:41:48.639 can probably look for is when you start to see 2867 02:41:48.680 --> 02:41:50.920 a lot of Jews really start to take the side 2868 02:41:50.920 --> 02:41:54.840 of Latinos when they come into conflict with Blacks, because 2869 02:41:54.879 --> 02:41:57.440 that's sort of like sticking your finger in the wind 2870 02:41:57.479 --> 02:42:00.200 and seeing which way it's blowing, you know, And so 2871 02:42:00.280 --> 02:42:02.840 you know, I feel bad for you know, I feel 2872 02:42:02.840 --> 02:42:05.040 bad for black people in this country right now in 2873 02:42:05.079 --> 02:42:06.479 a lot of ways because you know, I look at 2874 02:42:06.520 --> 02:42:09.319 something like Wakanda Forever or Black Lives Matter, and it's 2875 02:42:09.360 --> 02:42:12.600 so ridiculous in so many ways. But these people are 2876 02:42:12.639 --> 02:42:15.079 in like a pretty desperate situation and their future does 2877 02:42:15.120 --> 02:42:18.319 not look good, and you know, I look at those things, 2878 02:42:18.319 --> 02:42:21.760 it's like almost last gasps of a of an attempt 2879 02:42:21.760 --> 02:42:26.760 at creating some kind of a coherent identity and you 2880 02:42:26.760 --> 02:42:29.159 know a certain amount of political cohesion that'll help them 2881 02:42:29.280 --> 02:42:33.879 kind of withstand and you know, just help them survive 2882 02:42:34.200 --> 02:42:36.520 in a country that is going to be completely defined 2883 02:42:36.559 --> 02:42:40.360 by ethnic politics again, you know, where people who are 2884 02:42:40.440 --> 02:42:42.879 unrelated to any of our history of race relations in 2885 02:42:42.920 --> 02:42:45.479 this country are really running the show. And it's not 2886 02:42:45.520 --> 02:42:48.040 going to be you know, it's not gonna be very good. 2887 02:42:48.079 --> 02:42:50.479 I mean, talk about the Great Migration. Over the last 2888 02:42:50.479 --> 02:42:53.239 fifteen twenty years or so, there's been a reverse Great migration. 2889 02:42:53.559 --> 02:42:55.920 You know, the Blacks are getting driven out of the 2890 02:42:55.959 --> 02:42:58.719 cities because of rising real estate prices and everything, and 2891 02:42:58.719 --> 02:43:01.920 they're moving back to the South, and in some ways, 2892 02:43:01.920 --> 02:43:04.440 I mean that's kind of a you know, it's kind 2893 02:43:04.440 --> 02:43:06.520 of a tragic thing, right. You have like that uh, 2894 02:43:07.600 --> 02:43:10.600 what's that Midnight Train to Georgia? You know that old 2895 02:43:10.639 --> 02:43:12.959 song and it's about like this black dude who went 2896 02:43:13.000 --> 02:43:16.600 out to I think Los Angeles, Hollywood or something and 2897 02:43:16.760 --> 02:43:19.159 just couldn't really make it and so he ended up 2898 02:43:19.200 --> 02:43:21.639 going back to Georgia, taking the midnight train back to Georgia. 2899 02:43:21.680 --> 02:43:24.239 And it's like kind of a sad song. And uh, 2900 02:43:25.040 --> 02:43:28.719 that's happening like on mass now, you know. And so yeah, 2901 02:43:28.719 --> 02:43:31.360 it'll be very interesting, it'll be very interesting to see 2902 02:43:31.399 --> 02:43:33.479 how it develops. But I'm not optimistic. 2903 02:43:34.559 --> 02:43:35.559 Plug anything you want. 2904 02:43:37.200 --> 02:43:41.920 Oh, I don't have anything you come. I mean I 2905 02:43:41.920 --> 02:43:46.719 have a podcast Martyr Maide focuses primarily on like like 2906 02:43:47.000 --> 02:43:51.680 broader his historical topics, and then uh, I've got a 2907 02:43:51.719 --> 02:43:56.920 substack martyrmade dot substack dot com where I talk about 2908 02:43:57.040 --> 02:44:01.559 things that are you know, more current usually So yeah, sorry, 2909 02:44:01.600 --> 02:44:03.879 I don't like self promotion. I'm not good at it. 2910 02:44:05.120 --> 02:44:06.760 I need to get better at it. I've been doing 2911 02:44:06.799 --> 02:44:08.360 this long enough that you think I would be a 2912 02:44:08.360 --> 02:44:11.479 lot better at it. But Darryl, thank you very much. 2913 02:44:11.520 --> 02:44:12.280 I appreciate it. 2914 02:44:12.639 --> 02:44:13.239 Thanks man. 2915 02:44:14.680 --> 02:44:17.440 I want to welcome everyone back to the Pequnana Show. 2916 02:44:18.399 --> 02:44:20.559 I'm here with Darryl Cooper once again. How are you doing, 2917 02:44:20.639 --> 02:44:23.440 Daryl good Man. It's always good to be here with you. 2918 02:44:23.479 --> 02:44:26.959 Thanks well, thank you for joining me today. This is 2919 02:44:27.000 --> 02:44:30.760 a week where an announcement came down that for those 2920 02:44:30.799 --> 02:44:35.399 of us who actually know who runs foreign policy and 2921 02:44:35.440 --> 02:44:38.760 who influences foreign policy, it was a huge announcement that 2922 02:44:38.879 --> 02:44:44.319 Victoria Nolan was stepping down as I think was she undersecretary? 2923 02:44:47.000 --> 02:44:50.479 Yeah? Yeah, people like her, you know, their titles come 2924 02:44:50.520 --> 02:44:53.440 and go, but she's sort of one of those undead 2925 02:44:53.479 --> 02:44:57.920 creatures in Washington that no matter who's the Republican Democrat, 2926 02:44:57.920 --> 02:45:00.360 Dick Cheney, you know, Joe Biden, doesn't matter her like, 2927 02:45:00.399 --> 02:45:03.440 she kind of always hangs around and they maintain that 2928 02:45:04.479 --> 02:45:07.639 consistency of policy over the course of you know, many 2929 02:45:07.680 --> 02:45:13.200 administrations that has not ended well. And you know, hopefully 2930 02:45:13.239 --> 02:45:15.559 the fact that she's stepping down, I mean, she's going 2931 02:45:15.600 --> 02:45:17.639 to land on her feet. Don't worry about that. I'm 2932 02:45:17.639 --> 02:45:19.959 sure she'll have a nice gig at Harvard or something soon. 2933 02:45:20.079 --> 02:45:25.319 But it may signal that the policy that she's headed 2934 02:45:25.399 --> 02:45:29.239 up in Eastern Europe since you know, she was hired 2935 02:45:29.280 --> 02:45:32.280 to her current position in twenty thirteen, twenty fourteen, when 2936 02:45:32.319 --> 02:45:37.559 might Dan happened, that maybe we're deciding that we've got 2937 02:45:37.600 --> 02:45:40.399 to accept defeat on that front and move on. So 2938 02:45:40.680 --> 02:45:41.799 hopefully that's the case. 2939 02:45:42.840 --> 02:45:45.600 When you see someone like her step down, someone who's 2940 02:45:45.639 --> 02:45:49.399 such a permanent fixture in what you would call the 2941 02:45:49.440 --> 02:45:53.200 administrative state, really what's your reaction. 2942 02:45:55.840 --> 02:45:58.959 Well, you know, there's a lot of sort of musical 2943 02:45:59.040 --> 02:46:01.079 chairs going on with the like this, and so you 2944 02:46:01.120 --> 02:46:05.639 have to look at who she's replaced by, and you know, 2945 02:46:05.680 --> 02:46:08.319 the guy that they brought in I don't know a 2946 02:46:08.360 --> 02:46:10.319 whole lot about him except that he used to work 2947 02:46:10.319 --> 02:46:14.239 for Strobe Talbot, and you know, Strobe Talbot was one 2948 02:46:14.280 --> 02:46:20.079 of Clinton's main Russia guys back in the nineties. And he, 2949 02:46:20.200 --> 02:46:22.920 you know, he's not a he's not an idiologue like 2950 02:46:23.000 --> 02:46:26.120 someone like like Victoria Newland in her set is like 2951 02:46:26.159 --> 02:46:30.239 with regard to Russia. He's more pragmatic. He was always 2952 02:46:30.239 --> 02:46:34.399 somebody though who ah. You know, when he he may 2953 02:46:34.399 --> 02:46:36.719 have thought something was a bad idea or he was 2954 02:46:36.719 --> 02:46:39.159 pushing for something he thought was a good idea. But 2955 02:46:39.239 --> 02:46:41.840 when Clinton told him, no, you're going to go do 2956 02:46:41.959 --> 02:46:44.399 this and endorse it fully and push it on everybody else, 2957 02:46:44.440 --> 02:46:47.559 he would follow orders and go do it. So you know, 2958 02:46:47.799 --> 02:46:51.280 he he uh all all things told, I'd rather have 2959 02:46:51.799 --> 02:46:56.000 a pragnant, pragmatist like that in there than somebody like Newland. 2960 02:46:57.600 --> 02:46:59.719 But yeah, it's hard to read these things because again, 2961 02:46:59.840 --> 02:47:03.040 like you know, new Ones not leaving the foreign policy scene. 2962 02:47:03.159 --> 02:47:05.799 She's gonna go get hooked up at Brookings or CSIS 2963 02:47:05.840 --> 02:47:09.520 and you know, teach classes at Georgetown about how we 2964 02:47:09.520 --> 02:47:13.040 ought to conduct their foreign policy. So you know, it's 2965 02:47:13.040 --> 02:47:16.280 not some giant victory. But as far as the immediate 2966 02:47:16.559 --> 02:47:19.600 policy with regard to Russian and Ukraine. It hopefully signals, 2967 02:47:19.639 --> 02:47:21.440 you know, an improvement in that area. 2968 02:47:23.159 --> 02:47:26.799 When you look at all of this. I was listening 2969 02:47:26.840 --> 02:47:30.479 to Scott Rider the other day, was saying he believes 2970 02:47:30.479 --> 02:47:34.840 that as many as four hundred thousand Ukrainian men could 2971 02:47:34.840 --> 02:47:39.399 be dead, and what they're judging that bias. They're looking 2972 02:47:39.440 --> 02:47:43.000 at obituaries. They're kunt of obituaries for the last two 2973 02:47:43.079 --> 02:47:46.719 years that have appeared. He says, another one hundred thousand 2974 02:47:46.840 --> 02:47:52.159 could be missing. Do those numbers seem in the ballpark 2975 02:47:52.159 --> 02:47:53.159 of what you've been looking at? 2976 02:47:54.399 --> 02:47:57.559 Yeah, obviously it's hard to say, but you know, when 2977 02:47:57.600 --> 02:48:00.959 I look at you, I think these numbers came from 2978 02:48:01.319 --> 02:48:05.440 Ukraine or if not Ukraine, US officials, but one of 2979 02:48:05.479 --> 02:48:08.920 the two that the average age of a Ukrainian infantryman 2980 02:48:09.000 --> 02:48:11.079 on the field right now is forty three years old. 2981 02:48:12.079 --> 02:48:16.280 I mean, you know, that's like Germans in February of 2982 02:48:16.319 --> 02:48:20.399 nineteen forty five numbers. You know, because you know, again 2983 02:48:20.440 --> 02:48:24.399 it doesn't mean that everybody on the battlefield is forty three. 2984 02:48:24.479 --> 02:48:26.719 Some of them are twenty five, But they got fifty 2985 02:48:26.760 --> 02:48:28.319 five and sixty year old guys out there. 2986 02:48:28.319 --> 02:48:28.520 Now. 2987 02:48:28.600 --> 02:48:30.360 And if you're scrape in the bottom of the barrel 2988 02:48:30.440 --> 02:48:34.000 like that, then you know a country of pre war 2989 02:48:34.239 --> 02:48:37.559 was it thirty five forty million people or something, and 2990 02:48:37.639 --> 02:48:39.879 you're scraping the bottom of the barrel like that, then 2991 02:48:40.399 --> 02:48:44.040 you're hurting for manpower, no question about it. And you'd 2992 02:48:44.040 --> 02:48:45.440 have to kill a whole hell of a lot of 2993 02:48:45.639 --> 02:48:48.440 Ukrainian men to get them to that point. So you know, 2994 02:48:48.479 --> 02:48:51.280 whether it's four hundred thousand or five hundred thousand, or 2995 02:48:52.079 --> 02:48:54.360 it's a lot, it's a hell of a lot. 2996 02:48:55.639 --> 02:48:59.920 Go back to Maidan and what is your take on it? 2997 02:49:00.079 --> 02:49:05.879 What's your take on why? Why a coup took place? 2998 02:49:06.079 --> 02:49:09.680 Why the yep, everybody wants to talk about the house. 2999 02:49:09.719 --> 02:49:12.680 Everybody wants to talk about snipers here there. I've read, 3000 02:49:12.879 --> 02:49:15.559 I've read it all. To me, it's always the why. 3001 02:49:16.239 --> 02:49:19.399 So why you know? 3002 02:49:19.399 --> 02:49:23.959 I uh? I read this anecdote from the former ci 3003 02:49:24.079 --> 02:49:28.639 director and Defense Secretary Bob Gates, who you know, obviously 3004 02:49:28.760 --> 02:49:33.120 is a swamp creature, but uh, relative to his colleagues, 3005 02:49:33.159 --> 02:49:35.360 you know, is more sensible, I think than most of 3006 02:49:35.360 --> 02:49:37.719 the people who've been in those positions for quite a while. 3007 02:49:39.040 --> 02:49:42.440 And he was asked about our difference in approach toward 3008 02:49:42.520 --> 02:49:46.639 Russia and the Soviet Union versus our approach to China 3009 02:49:47.079 --> 02:49:49.239 over over the years, and this was, you know, a 3010 02:49:49.280 --> 02:49:52.959 little this was a handful of years ago before a 3011 02:49:53.000 --> 02:49:55.000 lot of people have started to talk about, you know, 3012 02:49:55.040 --> 02:49:58.120 our need to start focusing on China more. But you know, 3013 02:49:58.200 --> 02:49:59.920 he said it was very interesting because you go back 3014 02:50:00.159 --> 02:50:03.200 nineteen eighty nine and you have these two communist powers 3015 02:50:03.479 --> 02:50:08.200 and one of them agrees to let their empire go voluntarily, 3016 02:50:08.600 --> 02:50:13.639 agrees to have a bloodless democratic revolution, essentially agrees to 3017 02:50:13.719 --> 02:50:17.200 end the Cold War without a fight. The other side 3018 02:50:17.799 --> 02:50:20.479 had Tianum and Square, and you know, I know there's 3019 02:50:20.639 --> 02:50:22.760 sort of some revisionism going on about that, and I 3020 02:50:22.760 --> 02:50:25.680 haven't really sort of through any of that yet, but 3021 02:50:26.120 --> 02:50:28.479 there's something going on in nineteen eighty nine in China 3022 02:50:28.559 --> 02:50:31.959 that was, you know, trying to put pressure on that regime, 3023 02:50:31.959 --> 02:50:36.120 and they squashed it. And from that point on, you know, 3024 02:50:36.200 --> 02:50:39.559 we've pretty much been treating China like a good buddy 3025 02:50:39.559 --> 02:50:41.840 and somebody we can trust and work with and so forth, 3026 02:50:41.879 --> 02:50:45.840 and we've been just like rabid dogs when it comes 3027 02:50:45.879 --> 02:50:48.319 to Russia, at least after they stopped taking orders from US, 3028 02:50:48.319 --> 02:50:52.120 in the nineteen nineties, and so Gates was asked about this. 3029 02:50:52.200 --> 02:50:54.760 He says, you know, it is interesting, he said, if 3030 02:50:54.760 --> 02:50:58.600 you go back to like World War Two, this is 3031 02:50:58.600 --> 02:51:00.639 hard for us to even really imagine in these days 3032 02:51:00.680 --> 02:51:03.399 because we're just we've grown up in the Empire. You know, 3033 02:51:04.920 --> 02:51:07.360 when the OSS was stood up, when America came into 3034 02:51:07.360 --> 02:51:11.079 the war, like, we had no presence overseas, we had 3035 02:51:11.120 --> 02:51:14.120 no intelligence presence overseas, we had nothing, to the point 3036 02:51:14.159 --> 02:51:20.239 where Dulles was actually bringing in recent immigrants from like 3037 02:51:20.319 --> 02:51:23.399 Holland and stuff to ask them to draw diagrams of 3038 02:51:23.440 --> 02:51:26.280 like where the port is and stuff. That's where our 3039 02:51:26.799 --> 02:51:29.319 you know, our foreign intelligence presence was at the time. 3040 02:51:30.079 --> 02:51:32.639 And so you know, you start out like that, we 3041 02:51:32.680 --> 02:51:36.360 have to stand up a Soviet Union desk at this 3042 02:51:36.440 --> 02:51:38.920 new intelligence agency, or you know, we have to beef 3043 02:51:39.000 --> 02:51:40.959 up the Soviet desk at the State Department. We have 3044 02:51:41.040 --> 02:51:43.639 to build out these institutions now to deal with these 3045 02:51:44.040 --> 02:51:46.760 these things that are emerging. And he said, when we 3046 02:51:46.799 --> 02:51:51.559 started doing that with China, the people that we hired 3047 02:51:51.719 --> 02:51:55.559 to fill all the seats at the China desk, whether 3048 02:51:55.600 --> 02:52:01.120 it's State Department or DD or the intelligence agencies mostly 3049 02:52:01.799 --> 02:52:07.319 like overwhelmingly they were the children of missionaries who had 3050 02:52:07.319 --> 02:52:10.840 spent a lot of time in China, and they liked China. 3051 02:52:10.879 --> 02:52:13.319 They like Chinese people, they like Chinese culture, and they 3052 02:52:13.360 --> 02:52:18.000 sort of saw their role as you know, facilitating peaceful 3053 02:52:18.040 --> 02:52:20.520 mediation between their country and this country that they had 3054 02:52:20.520 --> 02:52:25.479 a lot of respect for with regard to the Soviet Union. 3055 02:52:25.520 --> 02:52:27.520 When we started doing that, and even before that, when 3056 02:52:27.520 --> 02:52:29.799 we had like, you know, our diplomatic corps in the 3057 02:52:29.879 --> 02:52:32.680 Russian Empire before the Soviets, small as it was, wasn't 3058 02:52:32.799 --> 02:52:37.079 you know, ah, we filled that up almost entirely with 3059 02:52:38.159 --> 02:52:41.159 non Russian refugees who had come over who did not 3060 02:52:41.440 --> 02:52:44.920 like Russians, they did not like you know, and they 3061 02:52:44.959 --> 02:52:48.760 saw their role as helping the United States, United States 3062 02:52:48.760 --> 02:52:51.520 fight this beast, or using the United States to fight 3063 02:52:51.600 --> 02:52:56.280 this beast, and that you know, Gates said that when 3064 02:52:56.360 --> 02:52:58.799 you start, you know, bureaucracies have a lot of sort of, uh, 3065 02:52:59.200 --> 02:53:01.639 just inertia behind them, and so when you start out 3066 02:53:02.399 --> 02:53:05.879 with a certain attitude, a certain approach, it stays that 3067 02:53:05.959 --> 02:53:08.280 way for you know, unless you have some sort of 3068 02:53:08.719 --> 02:53:11.000 conscious cleanup of it. It's going to stay that way 3069 02:53:11.040 --> 02:53:14.719 because everybody there's like it. You hire somebody new, they 3070 02:53:14.719 --> 02:53:17.639 get integrated into that culture, the old people retire, you 3071 02:53:17.680 --> 02:53:20.600 bring in new people, and it just maintains that culture 3072 02:53:20.639 --> 02:53:24.479 and that approach. And you know, I think that that's 3073 02:53:24.479 --> 02:53:32.360 something we've really seen pick up, you know, in spades 3074 02:53:32.559 --> 02:53:35.520 since the Soviet Union fell, or really since like I 3075 02:53:35.520 --> 02:53:37.639 guess the eighties is when we started taking in like 3076 02:53:37.680 --> 02:53:39.680 a lot of refugees, and then in the nineties, like 3077 02:53:39.719 --> 02:53:45.440 a whole lot where you know, if you and not 3078 02:53:45.479 --> 02:53:49.159 only refugees, just foreign nationals and you know, recent immigrants 3079 02:53:49.159 --> 02:53:50.879 and stuff. If you look back at the nineteen nineties 3080 02:53:50.920 --> 02:53:55.000 for example, like whether you're talking about Madeline Albright, whether 3081 02:53:55.000 --> 02:53:57.639 you're talking about the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs in 3082 02:53:57.680 --> 02:54:02.559 the in the mid nineties under Clinton, General Salakashvili, just 3083 02:54:02.600 --> 02:54:05.799 across the board, you see the same thing you saw 3084 02:54:06.000 --> 02:54:11.280 during the first Trump impeachment hearing it's just one emigrat 3085 02:54:11.440 --> 02:54:14.440 after another from Eastern Europe or from from that region 3086 02:54:15.000 --> 02:54:17.399 going up, and you're like, you know, you kind of 3087 02:54:17.399 --> 02:54:21.600 realize that these people are they're bringing their priors with 3088 02:54:21.639 --> 02:54:23.840 them when they come to the United States and join 3089 02:54:23.920 --> 02:54:28.600 up for that, and you know, you can understand what look. 3090 02:54:28.719 --> 02:54:34.520 I mean, if you need somebody to work intelligence or 3091 02:54:34.639 --> 02:54:38.559 or in your diplomatic corps for uh, you know, Nigeria, 3092 02:54:38.719 --> 02:54:42.120 the child of a Nigerian immigrant is probably a good 3093 02:54:42.120 --> 02:54:44.639 candidate to do that. You know, they understand the culture 3094 02:54:44.719 --> 02:54:47.479 and can bring that to it. But there's down there's 3095 02:54:47.520 --> 02:54:50.040 downsides to it, you know, especially when the other side 3096 02:54:50.079 --> 02:54:51.680 really comes with a chip on its shoulder. 3097 02:54:53.600 --> 02:54:55.920 I guess listening to what you just said, I get 3098 02:54:56.000 --> 02:55:00.280 some people could say, well, because they chose people who 3099 02:55:00.319 --> 02:55:03.399 were more sympathetic to China, maybe that's why we have 3100 02:55:03.479 --> 02:55:04.879 so many China problems now. 3101 02:55:06.559 --> 02:55:09.799 Yeah, I mean for sure, although I would say our 3102 02:55:09.879 --> 02:55:13.200 China problems really didn't start until you know, the late 3103 02:55:13.280 --> 02:55:15.840 nineties or so. I mean when we when we decided 3104 02:55:15.840 --> 02:55:17.840 to let them into the WTO and just kind of 3105 02:55:18.440 --> 02:55:21.079 through that open you know, before that. And this really 3106 02:55:21.120 --> 02:55:23.959 goes to like US hoeign policy as a whole. You know, 3107 02:55:23.959 --> 02:55:28.040 if you go back to even the even the eighties, 3108 02:55:28.040 --> 02:55:32.440 I'll say, up through the eighties even you know, you 3109 02:55:32.559 --> 02:55:35.520 still had this sort of this sort of old school 3110 02:55:37.079 --> 02:55:41.040 wasp attitude, post warlike kind of wasp attitude where you know, 3111 02:55:41.079 --> 02:55:43.440 you had guys like James Baker. You had these people 3112 02:55:43.440 --> 02:55:47.520 who had enough heft in gravitas, not just in Washington, 3113 02:55:47.600 --> 02:55:51.239 but just sort of in general that they could control 3114 02:55:51.280 --> 02:55:53.159 the fanatics and hold them back a little bit and 3115 02:55:53.159 --> 02:55:57.760 overrule them a bit. You know, you get up into 3116 02:55:57.799 --> 02:55:59.959 the nineteen nineties after the fall of the Soviet Union, 3117 02:56:00.120 --> 02:56:02.280 and you know, a lot of those people really started 3118 02:56:02.319 --> 02:56:04.360 to fade away, to the point where you get up 3119 02:56:04.399 --> 02:56:07.040 to the Bush administration and like, you know, our foreign 3120 02:56:07.120 --> 02:56:10.639 policy is just totally hijacked by a bunch of second 3121 02:56:10.680 --> 02:56:13.799 and third generation neo cons that somebody like George Kennon 3122 02:56:13.879 --> 02:56:16.159 never would have even allowed into his office, you know, 3123 02:56:16.280 --> 02:56:20.399 and so that that sort of consistent hand on the 3124 02:56:20.440 --> 02:56:23.559 steering wheel leadership at the very, very very top level 3125 02:56:24.319 --> 02:56:28.239 has sort of evaporated. You know, it really doesn't exist anymore. 3126 02:56:28.040 --> 02:56:30.399 There is like a there's a ruling class, but it's 3127 02:56:30.399 --> 02:56:32.520 sort of amorphous, and people come and go, and you 3128 02:56:32.559 --> 02:56:35.000 can come in and be cast out. And it's not 3129 02:56:35.120 --> 02:56:38.319 this you know, it's not the Sons of Cincinnatis anymore, 3130 02:56:38.600 --> 02:56:41.600 you know, the children of the American Revolution or something. 3131 02:56:41.680 --> 02:56:44.040 And so you know, there's nobody who has like a 3132 02:56:44.079 --> 02:56:47.840 real sense of proprietorship over the country and feels like, 3133 02:56:48.520 --> 02:56:53.040 you know, by thinking about the long term future of 3134 02:56:53.079 --> 02:56:55.680 the country, they're looking after the long term future of 3135 02:56:55.719 --> 02:56:58.799 their own grandkids and great grandkids in a very real sense, 3136 02:56:58.840 --> 02:57:01.559 because this is their legacy that they're going to inherit, 3137 02:57:02.600 --> 02:57:05.360 you know. Now, it's there's nobody like that for the 3138 02:57:05.360 --> 02:57:07.280 most part, and so it's just a big free for all, 3139 02:57:07.760 --> 02:57:12.239 you know, And it's whichever interest group is the best 3140 02:57:12.360 --> 02:57:15.159 organized and the best funded and the most ruthless and 3141 02:57:15.280 --> 02:57:18.680 just the best at getting their way through all the 3142 02:57:18.760 --> 02:57:22.920 various you know, levers that we provide for that they 3143 02:57:22.959 --> 02:57:26.120 tend to get their way, you know. And it's not 3144 02:57:26.200 --> 02:57:29.879 a conspiracy necessarily. It's not something that you know, there's 3145 02:57:29.879 --> 02:57:34.200 a there's this sort of you know, deep seated sort 3146 02:57:34.200 --> 02:57:38.159 of conspiracy against Russia that keeps US in this belligerent 3147 02:57:38.280 --> 02:57:42.120 attitude toward them. That I mean, it's that when I 3148 02:57:42.159 --> 02:57:44.440 say there's not some conspiracy, I mean it's not something 3149 02:57:44.440 --> 02:57:47.120 that like pervades the whole government. It's not like the 3150 02:57:47.200 --> 02:57:50.040 regime is like this. It's that the people who feel 3151 02:57:50.079 --> 02:57:52.360 that way, they know how to work the system. They're 3152 02:57:52.399 --> 02:57:56.159 extremely well organized, they're extremely well funded, you know, especially 3153 02:57:56.200 --> 02:57:59.760 since Putin throughout all the billionaires I mean or a 3154 02:57:59.760 --> 02:58:03.200 lot those oligarchs, those guys have been spending their money 3155 02:58:03.239 --> 02:58:07.399 in London and New York to get you know, NATO 3156 02:58:07.479 --> 02:58:10.280 and our countries to remain belligerent toward Potin ever since 3157 02:58:10.319 --> 02:58:13.239 they got run out of town. So you know, there's 3158 02:58:13.239 --> 02:58:15.000 a lot of money behind it, a lot of organization. 3159 02:58:15.159 --> 02:58:17.120 And then you have on top of that sort of 3160 02:58:17.159 --> 02:58:20.799 the long term institutional approach that you know, I just 3161 02:58:20.959 --> 02:58:22.280 that Gates described so. 3162 02:58:23.559 --> 02:58:26.159 Well, that's what part of them being the manager being 3163 02:58:26.200 --> 02:58:30.280 under a managerial regime does, right. You you can have 3164 02:58:30.399 --> 02:58:34.319 these little special interest groups, unelected special interest groups, you know, 3165 02:58:34.360 --> 02:58:38.440 people who they can be fired, but if they do 3166 02:58:38.520 --> 02:58:40.879 their job well, they can be there for for a 3167 02:58:41.040 --> 02:58:45.000 very very long time. Even after the administrations come and go, 3168 02:58:45.120 --> 02:58:49.760 they stay around. And you can have these where it's 3169 02:58:49.840 --> 02:58:52.879 not really a conspiracy. All it is is there is 3170 02:58:53.040 --> 02:58:55.920 one group inside the government that's like, Okay, this is 3171 02:58:55.959 --> 02:58:58.440 what we want to do. We have the power to 3172 02:58:58.600 --> 02:59:03.680 do it, so let's trade. Let's work with this NGO whomever, 3173 02:59:04.280 --> 02:59:08.799 and let's you know, institute a coup and put our 3174 02:59:08.799 --> 02:59:12.159 guy into place. And you can have you know, you 3175 02:59:12.200 --> 02:59:16.319 can have audio on YouTube with the proof where you 3176 02:59:16.319 --> 02:59:19.040 know they're like, oh what what, what was it? 3177 02:59:19.120 --> 02:59:19.520 You EU? 3178 02:59:19.639 --> 02:59:22.840 Going to say? Well, fuck the EU. I mean, that's 3179 02:59:22.920 --> 02:59:25.040 that's what we get, right when we have a managerial regime. 3180 02:59:25.120 --> 02:59:28.840 We can have two or three people who decide, let's 3181 02:59:28.879 --> 02:59:31.520 funment a war on the other side of the planet, 3182 02:59:31.600 --> 02:59:33.120 and there you go. 3183 02:59:34.719 --> 02:59:39.239 Yeah. And you know, I think maybe in one of 3184 02:59:39.280 --> 02:59:43.799 your one of your conversations with with Thomas something he said, 3185 02:59:43.840 --> 02:59:47.799 he said that the American government is a machine that 3186 02:59:47.920 --> 02:59:50.760 has been built, was built to fight the Cold War, right, 3187 02:59:51.239 --> 02:59:54.079 And you know, and I would I would say the 3188 02:59:54.079 --> 02:59:55.719 Cold War in World War two, because if you go 3189 02:59:55.760 --> 02:59:58.959 back to like December sixth, nineteen forty one and look 3190 02:59:58.959 --> 03:00:01.079 at the size and the funk of the federal government, 3191 03:00:01.239 --> 03:00:04.360 it was ninety nine percent of what we have now, 3192 03:00:04.440 --> 03:00:06.680 Like it was one percent of what we have now. 3193 03:00:07.079 --> 03:00:09.280 And so it grew up in that environment and the 3194 03:00:09.360 --> 03:00:14.120 environment of total war and global conflict with the Soviet Union, 3195 03:00:14.879 --> 03:00:18.520 and you know, that's just not something you can necessarily 3196 03:00:18.559 --> 03:00:22.079 shut off. You know, I'm doing a series on my 3197 03:00:22.120 --> 03:00:25.079 substack right now about the history of like slavery, going 3198 03:00:25.120 --> 03:00:26.680 back a long ways and taking it up to the 3199 03:00:26.760 --> 03:00:29.200 lead up to the American Civil War, and I was 3200 03:00:29.200 --> 03:00:32.239 talking about the Spanish and the Portuguese and how you know, 3201 03:00:32.559 --> 03:00:36.840 if you're gonna when you want to talk about the 3202 03:00:36.879 --> 03:00:39.319 approach they took when they when they came over into 3203 03:00:39.399 --> 03:00:41.159 the New World, or any of the other places that 3204 03:00:41.200 --> 03:00:43.479 they ended up. You know, these people had been in 3205 03:00:43.680 --> 03:00:48.280 war for hundreds and hundreds of years. For six hundred years, 3206 03:00:48.520 --> 03:00:52.360 they had been at continual war against the Moors, pushing 3207 03:00:52.360 --> 03:00:54.959 them out of Iberia, and so it was built into 3208 03:00:55.000 --> 03:00:57.200 their culture. It was built into the very way that 3209 03:00:57.280 --> 03:01:00.760 like the incentives that led to certain people being promoted 3210 03:01:00.799 --> 03:01:03.719 and receiving sort of you know, and you can't just 3211 03:01:03.760 --> 03:01:06.239 turn something like that off. And so we have a 3212 03:01:06.360 --> 03:01:08.760 we have a government that's built to fight a war 3213 03:01:08.879 --> 03:01:13.360 like that, and you know, it's it's I mean, look, 3214 03:01:13.360 --> 03:01:15.479 Samuel Huntington did not have to be a genius to 3215 03:01:15.559 --> 03:01:17.879 know that after the Soviet Union fell, we were going 3216 03:01:17.959 --> 03:01:20.399 to go look for another enemy, and it was probably 3217 03:01:20.440 --> 03:01:22.559 going to be Islam, you know, he called that one. 3218 03:01:22.799 --> 03:01:26.000 Islam proved to be sort of an unworthy adversary in 3219 03:01:26.040 --> 03:01:29.000 a certain at least for our purposes. And so we 3220 03:01:29.159 --> 03:01:30.879 you know, we sort of moved back to trust the 3221 03:01:30.920 --> 03:01:32.840 old Russia. 3222 03:01:32.959 --> 03:01:38.959 It really seems like that that Russia can be made 3223 03:01:39.120 --> 03:01:44.040 into the enemy at any given time. It because when 3224 03:01:44.079 --> 03:01:48.200 you when you had a standoff for so long, even 3225 03:01:48.239 --> 03:01:51.920 before that under the Cizar there were issues. You can 3226 03:01:51.920 --> 03:01:55.200 go to the Civil War and the argument could be 3227 03:01:55.239 --> 03:01:59.280 made that the North wouldn't have one without Russia. There's 3228 03:02:00.040 --> 03:02:04.440 it seems like Russia is definitely a whipping boy someone, 3229 03:02:06.000 --> 03:02:13.440 especially a country that's so resource rich that you're if 3230 03:02:13.479 --> 03:02:17.079 you're in a perpetual war state, they're an easy enemy. 3231 03:02:17.559 --> 03:02:19.959 They're not they're slav they're not most A lot of 3232 03:02:20.000 --> 03:02:22.479 people say they're not like us, they're not like Westerners, 3233 03:02:22.959 --> 03:02:25.680 and yeah, there is all there are all of these 3234 03:02:25.799 --> 03:02:30.520 riches there, and yeah, it just it seems like it's 3235 03:02:30.559 --> 03:02:36.040 the perfect the perfect country to pick on, especially when 3236 03:02:36.079 --> 03:02:43.559 you're when you've done so much to basically defeat and 3237 03:02:43.600 --> 03:02:46.799 demoralize the countries that surround it that you can insinuate 3238 03:02:46.840 --> 03:02:50.639 yourselves into those countries and basically surround them much like 3239 03:02:50.719 --> 03:02:51.639 they did what they're in. 3240 03:02:53.399 --> 03:02:56.000 Yeah, and you know you talk about the money that's there. 3241 03:02:56.079 --> 03:02:58.680 I think that really gets kind of at the at 3242 03:02:58.680 --> 03:03:01.559 the deepest part of it, let's say, the most proximate 3243 03:03:01.639 --> 03:03:05.040 cause of why we've taken the approach we have since 3244 03:03:05.440 --> 03:03:07.520 Putin came to power. You know, if you if you 3245 03:03:08.680 --> 03:03:10.719 look at you know, after the collapse of the Soviet 3246 03:03:10.799 --> 03:03:15.079 Union in ninety one, most people out there probably know 3247 03:03:15.159 --> 03:03:18.200 things were not good in the former Soviet world, especially 3248 03:03:18.200 --> 03:03:21.680 in Russia. You know, and you just put that in 3249 03:03:21.719 --> 03:03:24.799 some kind of context. I mean, you know, in twenty twenty, 3250 03:03:25.040 --> 03:03:30.799 twenty twenty one, with COVID, with record numbers of people 3251 03:03:30.959 --> 03:03:35.879 in America committing suicide, record numbers of people dying from 3252 03:03:36.040 --> 03:03:38.920 death to despair, alcohol and drugs and things like that, 3253 03:03:39.879 --> 03:03:43.120 the life expectancy in America dropped. It dropped by about 3254 03:03:43.159 --> 03:03:45.360 six months or something, six to eight months, I think. 3255 03:03:46.319 --> 03:03:49.920 And that's a big deal. That's a very traumatic thing 3256 03:03:49.959 --> 03:03:51.520 to happen. You look at all the death that you 3257 03:03:51.600 --> 03:03:54.280 know that's happening. You know, record numbers of suicides and 3258 03:03:54.319 --> 03:03:56.440 death to despair is no joke. People feel that, and 3259 03:03:56.440 --> 03:03:59.559 it affects the culture in a very deep way. The 3260 03:03:59.600 --> 03:04:03.559 life expectancy in Russia, you know, from nineteen eighty nine 3261 03:04:03.559 --> 03:04:06.399 when the Berlin Wall came down to nineteen ninety five, 3262 03:04:06.520 --> 03:04:08.959 just six years, dropped about a decade, a little over 3263 03:04:09.000 --> 03:04:12.079 a decade, actually, you know, And when you look at 3264 03:04:12.120 --> 03:04:17.479 the distribution of who was affected, it wasn't that you know, 3265 03:04:17.920 --> 03:04:21.559 a lot more babies were dying at birth. It wasn't 3266 03:04:21.600 --> 03:04:28.000 that a lot of women were dying that women life expectancy. 3267 03:04:28.399 --> 03:04:31.360 Female life expectancy was not affected all that much. And 3268 03:04:31.399 --> 03:04:34.399 the people who were already like fifty or sixty years old, 3269 03:04:34.520 --> 03:04:37.479 like theirs, wasn't affected too much. It was pretty much 3270 03:04:37.600 --> 03:04:41.360 all just hyper concentrated in that group of men, like 3271 03:04:41.600 --> 03:04:44.879 you know, fifteen to forty years old, and they weren't 3272 03:04:44.959 --> 03:04:49.000 dying of you know, because of an increase of cancer rates, 3273 03:04:49.040 --> 03:04:56.360 like the life expectancy dropped ten years because of malnutrition, alcoholism, 3274 03:04:56.799 --> 03:05:02.319 drug addiction, and violence. And so when you think about again, 3275 03:05:02.399 --> 03:05:03.920 like what I just said about COVID and the deaths 3276 03:05:03.959 --> 03:05:06.360 of despair over here, which are all at records, for 3277 03:05:06.440 --> 03:05:09.159 it to drop six eight months, for it to drop 3278 03:05:09.200 --> 03:05:12.920 a decade, I mean, you need you know, it was 3279 03:05:12.959 --> 03:05:15.159 a nightmare. It was an absolute nightmare for these people. 3280 03:05:15.680 --> 03:05:17.920 You know, you when you you know, there's a there's 3281 03:05:17.959 --> 03:05:21.440 an element to it. It's sort of like Germany after 3282 03:05:21.479 --> 03:05:25.719 the First World War. You know, people, even people who 3283 03:05:25.760 --> 03:05:29.639 are sort of pro Russia and you know, against the 3284 03:05:29.760 --> 03:05:34.799 US approach there, they don't necessarily like this analogy because 3285 03:05:34.959 --> 03:05:38.239 you know, the end result is that they end up 3286 03:05:38.280 --> 03:05:40.319 where the Germans are ending up. But I think it's 3287 03:05:40.319 --> 03:05:42.479 a solid analogy in a lot of ways. You know, 3288 03:05:42.920 --> 03:05:47.879 if you think about how, you know, the Germans fight 3289 03:05:47.959 --> 03:05:52.319 this long, hard war, and people can, you know, historians 3290 03:05:52.360 --> 03:05:55.239 can debate how the whole thing ended and whether they 3291 03:05:55.239 --> 03:05:58.520 were stabbed in the back or lied to whatever. But 3292 03:05:58.559 --> 03:06:01.000 the fact is, like they certainly felt that way, and 3293 03:06:01.040 --> 03:06:03.479 they weren't just being bitchy about it, Like they really 3294 03:06:03.520 --> 03:06:05.920 felt that way, like, and they had good reason. Even 3295 03:06:05.920 --> 03:06:08.200 if you don't agree, you have to like listen to 3296 03:06:08.239 --> 03:06:13.120 their reasoning and admit it's consistent right that they felt 3297 03:06:13.639 --> 03:06:17.440 that they had agreed to lay down their arms. Churchill 3298 03:06:17.600 --> 03:06:20.319 kept the British Navy cutting off their food. You know, 3299 03:06:20.559 --> 03:06:22.760 tons of Germans were starving to death, and then they 3300 03:06:22.799 --> 03:06:26.920 were basically forced knife at their throat to sign just 3301 03:06:26.959 --> 03:06:30.760 an unbelievably punitive treaty. And so you know, you have 3302 03:06:30.840 --> 03:06:34.600 the hyperinflation in twenty three and you go into the twenties, 3303 03:06:35.079 --> 03:06:38.079 and you know, you have to try to put yourself 3304 03:06:38.079 --> 03:06:42.639 in like the in this place where you're observing this 3305 03:06:42.680 --> 03:06:45.239 happened to your own society and how it would radicalize 3306 03:06:45.280 --> 03:06:49.360 and affect you right where. You know, the middle class 3307 03:06:49.440 --> 03:06:52.959 due to the inflation just got completely and totally wiped out. 3308 03:06:53.120 --> 03:06:56.159 I mean, you know, people out there on who listened 3309 03:06:56.159 --> 03:06:58.239 to your show know what hyperinflation is, and they know 3310 03:06:58.319 --> 03:07:01.200 that the middle classes are the ones who get annihilated 3311 03:07:01.239 --> 03:07:04.959 by that. You know, the poor they have nothing and 3312 03:07:05.000 --> 03:07:08.239 there in debt, and their debts are worthless now, so 3313 03:07:08.600 --> 03:07:11.239 in a way they're better off. The rich people have 3314 03:07:11.319 --> 03:07:15.440 international connections, connections to you know, international currencies, they own 3315 03:07:15.479 --> 03:07:18.360 hard assets and other things, and they sort of ride 3316 03:07:18.399 --> 03:07:20.840 the inflation wave up to a degree. But the middle class, 3317 03:07:21.000 --> 03:07:24.799 who has their money in annuities and savings, you know, 3318 03:07:25.000 --> 03:07:26.959 when all of a sudden you've got to go to 3319 03:07:27.000 --> 03:07:28.840 the store to buy a loaf of bread with a 3320 03:07:28.840 --> 03:07:32.920 wheelbarrow full of cash, those people just lost everything like immediately. 3321 03:07:33.120 --> 03:07:37.639 And you literally had like respectable middle class German women 3322 03:07:38.399 --> 03:07:41.200 who were having to resort to turning their homes into 3323 03:07:41.239 --> 03:07:44.000 brothels because they just had no other way to feed 3324 03:07:44.040 --> 03:07:47.680 their children or feed themselves, and this was epidemic across 3325 03:07:47.719 --> 03:07:52.000 the country, you know, and you have to again think about, like, 3326 03:07:52.120 --> 03:07:55.239 how if that were going on, especially if you felt 3327 03:07:55.280 --> 03:07:57.440 like the reason you're in this position is because you 3328 03:07:57.440 --> 03:08:00.680 were tricked and misled and the you could have kept 3329 03:08:00.719 --> 03:08:02.559 fighting if you knew they were going to do this, 3330 03:08:02.639 --> 03:08:07.200 and you would have, but that they lied to you, 3331 03:08:07.200 --> 03:08:11.399 you know, it would be extremely radicalizing. And so you know, 3332 03:08:11.559 --> 03:08:16.000 if you if you want to follow that an analogy further, 3333 03:08:16.040 --> 03:08:18.360 I mean, shoot, after the First World War, we sheared off, 3334 03:08:19.040 --> 03:08:21.120 you know what, fifteen percent or whatever it is of 3335 03:08:21.159 --> 03:08:26.360 the German population. And from the moment, you know, from 3336 03:08:26.360 --> 03:08:29.479 from the moment that happened, the new German government, even 3337 03:08:29.520 --> 03:08:32.840 the Weimar government, was expressing a lot of concern about 3338 03:08:32.879 --> 03:08:35.440 the fate of those people. Because you know, you have 3339 03:08:35.479 --> 03:08:37.879 a country like Poland that hasn't been a country for 3340 03:08:37.920 --> 03:08:40.559 a long time, and now it's a country, and so 3341 03:08:40.559 --> 03:08:43.360 you're going to have this upsurge of nationalist feeling and 3342 03:08:43.440 --> 03:08:45.319 you know, and all this kind of thing, and that's fine, 3343 03:08:45.399 --> 03:08:49.680 that's totally natural, but you know, how are they going 3344 03:08:49.760 --> 03:08:52.719 to look at the German minority over in the West 3345 03:08:52.840 --> 03:08:57.559 and it wasn't necessarily good. Same with Czechoslovakia and other places. 3346 03:08:57.639 --> 03:08:59.799 And so eventually, like the Germans got to the point 3347 03:08:59.799 --> 03:09:01.559 of like we got to we got to get these 3348 03:09:01.600 --> 03:09:05.440 people back. And I mean that's exactly what happened with Russia. 3349 03:09:05.600 --> 03:09:09.079 You know, even Boris Yeltsen, our total you know, just 3350 03:09:09.200 --> 03:09:13.920 puppet throughout the nineties, Like even the very very early 3351 03:09:14.040 --> 03:09:16.920 nighties when we were trying to negotiate the withdrawal of 3352 03:09:17.239 --> 03:09:22.079 Russian forces from Estonia and Latvia things like that. You know, 3353 03:09:22.399 --> 03:09:25.680 even Yeltsen, who again we controlled like a like a marionette, 3354 03:09:26.799 --> 03:09:29.520 was resistant. He was like, we got to wait until 3355 03:09:29.600 --> 03:09:32.799 I can verify that the Russian people who live over there, 3356 03:09:32.840 --> 03:09:35.440 who woke up one day and now they're foreigners in 3357 03:09:35.799 --> 03:09:38.840 minorities in a foreign country. I got to make sure 3358 03:09:38.840 --> 03:09:41.479 that they're okay and that they're going to be treated okay. 3359 03:09:42.120 --> 03:09:44.840 And from the beginning, I mean there were signs of trouble, 3360 03:09:45.040 --> 03:09:47.440 you know, and in almost all of these countries, you know, 3361 03:09:47.600 --> 03:09:51.559 in Estonia, for example, they started passing citizenship laws that 3362 03:09:51.639 --> 03:09:54.680 made it very very difficult for like native Russian speakers 3363 03:09:55.440 --> 03:09:58.120 and ethnic Russians to get citizenship, and I think to 3364 03:09:58.159 --> 03:10:01.520 this day there's a large percent the Russian population still 3365 03:10:01.559 --> 03:10:04.639 can't vote or anything like that. You can say that's like, 3366 03:10:05.319 --> 03:10:08.879 you know, sort of sort of a that's maybe a 3367 03:10:08.920 --> 03:10:12.399 bit of a minor inconvenience. But when you look at 3368 03:10:12.440 --> 03:10:15.000 what's happening in Ukraine and what's been going on since 3369 03:10:15.440 --> 03:10:18.520 twenty fourteen into a certain degree since two thousand and four, 3370 03:10:20.600 --> 03:10:22.360 you know, you can see why Yelsen would have been 3371 03:10:22.360 --> 03:10:26.360 concerned and putin finally, now that Russia's back on its 3372 03:10:26.360 --> 03:10:31.239 feet and able to actually do something, has has done 3373 03:10:31.319 --> 03:10:35.000 something because they never stopped considering those Russians their responsibility 3374 03:10:35.000 --> 03:10:40.879 and their people, you know, and rather than rather than 3375 03:10:41.319 --> 03:10:45.760 respect that and understand how you know, a country might 3376 03:10:45.799 --> 03:10:49.559 feel about that, we've sort of used those people as 3377 03:10:49.600 --> 03:10:55.280 foils to to you know, drive up the intensity of 3378 03:10:55.760 --> 03:11:01.840 nationalist feelings in the post Soviet countries and to direct 3379 03:11:01.840 --> 03:11:05.399 them against Russia, you know. And you read about this 3380 03:11:05.520 --> 03:11:08.159 in like in two thousand and four during the Orange Revolution, 3381 03:11:10.360 --> 03:11:14.799 which obviously we had a hand in as well. Before that, 3382 03:11:14.879 --> 03:11:16.840 you go back even two thousand and three and you 3383 03:11:16.840 --> 03:11:19.920 look at Poles in even western Ukraine, you look at 3384 03:11:19.920 --> 03:11:23.200 Poles about how people feel about Russia and Russians, and 3385 03:11:23.239 --> 03:11:29.399 it's fine, it's you know, a large majorities totally approve there. 3386 03:11:29.959 --> 03:11:33.840 Everything good. Two thousand and four comes along and you're 3387 03:11:33.840 --> 03:11:35.559 gonna have a revolution like that, you got to have 3388 03:11:35.600 --> 03:11:37.760 some energy to drive it. And where's that going to 3389 03:11:37.840 --> 03:11:39.680 come from? And you start to see all of these 3390 03:11:40.040 --> 03:11:44.760 NGO funded and led media outlets that popped up and 3391 03:11:44.879 --> 03:11:48.079 everything else start putting out a lot of propaganda demonizing 3392 03:11:48.079 --> 03:11:51.360 the Russian people, calling them the problem in Ukraine and 3393 03:11:51.399 --> 03:11:53.799 they're the reason we're having these issues and so forth, 3394 03:11:54.360 --> 03:11:56.879 and that really started to pick up. And you know, 3395 03:11:57.200 --> 03:12:02.680 now twenty twenty four years later, you know the kids 3396 03:12:02.719 --> 03:12:07.200 who were who were in elementary school when that started happening, 3397 03:12:07.239 --> 03:12:11.520 that change in attitude and approach started happening. You know, 3398 03:12:11.680 --> 03:12:14.600 they're the guys who joined as of battalion later on. 3399 03:12:15.040 --> 03:12:19.680 And yeah, it's it's it's you know, it's not good. 3400 03:12:19.840 --> 03:12:23.239 I mean, you know. And the thing is, actually, you can 3401 03:12:23.280 --> 03:12:25.079 go ahead and redirect this because I'll keep. 3402 03:12:24.920 --> 03:12:27.959 Going, Okay, well, let's go back to the nineties. Then, 3403 03:12:29.639 --> 03:12:32.159 to me, everything I've read about what was happening there, 3404 03:12:32.239 --> 03:12:36.760 it was basically a looting operation Okay, so now this 3405 03:12:37.200 --> 03:12:43.239 empire falls essentially no one's in charge except the oligarchs, 3406 03:12:43.760 --> 03:12:48.600 and they're just looting. And to the point, I know, 3407 03:12:48.639 --> 03:12:51.120 I was reading about ninety four and ninety five, people 3408 03:12:51.159 --> 03:12:56.280 are buying stuff with coupons. Their money isn't even in existence, 3409 03:12:56.840 --> 03:13:00.600 and basically all of the wealth is being than out 3410 03:13:00.639 --> 03:13:04.040 of the country. That's what you understand, right. 3411 03:13:04.520 --> 03:13:08.120 One hundred Yeah, and that was happening in Ukraine as well, 3412 03:13:08.159 --> 03:13:11.559 by the way, And the difference between the two countries is, 3413 03:13:11.719 --> 03:13:15.159 you know, Russia got its putin and Ukraine never got 3414 03:13:15.159 --> 03:13:19.959 its putin, and so those oligarchs still run the country. 3415 03:13:20.079 --> 03:13:22.200 You know, they were running it when the war started, 3416 03:13:22.200 --> 03:13:24.239 they were running it when might on happen. They're still 3417 03:13:24.360 --> 03:13:26.639 running it now, although a lot of them, you know, 3418 03:13:26.840 --> 03:13:29.559 the bulk of their wealth and assets were tied up 3419 03:13:29.600 --> 03:13:32.360 in the industrial East that is now controlled by Russia. 3420 03:13:32.520 --> 03:13:35.399 So you know, that's probably one of the reasons they're 3421 03:13:35.600 --> 03:13:38.200 continuing to feed their young men into the wood chipper, 3422 03:13:38.799 --> 03:13:41.280 even past the point where it makes much sense to 3423 03:13:41.280 --> 03:13:45.639 any outsiders. But yeah, absolutely, and I mean, you know, 3424 03:13:45.680 --> 03:13:47.840 you can kind of see how see it working when 3425 03:13:47.920 --> 03:13:50.440 in this there's another here's Another parallel the Germany in 3426 03:13:50.479 --> 03:13:54.399 the twenties is you know, people who were in Russia 3427 03:13:54.440 --> 03:14:00.319 in Ukraine who had access to you know, like you 3428 03:14:01.000 --> 03:14:04.399 if you had access to a foreign financial institution that 3429 03:14:04.520 --> 03:14:07.799 was willing to back you, I mean, you know, you 3430 03:14:07.879 --> 03:14:09.879 could buy up the whole country. It literally got to 3431 03:14:09.879 --> 03:14:13.280 that point where, you know, seven oligarchs in the mid 3432 03:14:13.399 --> 03:14:15.840 nineties seven just there were a bunch of them, but 3433 03:14:15.920 --> 03:14:20.280 seven oligarchs owned fifty eight percent of the entire Russian economy, 3434 03:14:20.760 --> 03:14:25.639 which is an insane number, you know, and Ukraine, you know, 3435 03:14:25.840 --> 03:14:29.680 very similar and in both of those countries, you know, 3436 03:14:30.760 --> 03:14:32.719 we don't have to go too far down this road, 3437 03:14:32.760 --> 03:14:35.200 but you know, in both of those countries, the vast 3438 03:14:35.239 --> 03:14:38.680 majority of the of the big oligarchs were all Russian 3439 03:14:38.719 --> 03:14:42.639 and Ukrainian Jews, right, which these are people who had 3440 03:14:42.680 --> 03:14:45.399 cousins and relatives in other countries and they were able 3441 03:14:45.440 --> 03:14:47.680 to sort of draw on those resources at a time 3442 03:14:48.520 --> 03:14:50.520 when there was a kind of free for all within 3443 03:14:50.600 --> 03:14:54.520 the country itself. And you know, when you have a 3444 03:14:54.559 --> 03:14:58.000 situation again where you go back to Germany where the middles, 3445 03:14:58.000 --> 03:15:01.760 respectable middle class women are having to you know, sell 3446 03:15:01.760 --> 03:15:06.920 their bodies to put food on their table, and people 3447 03:15:06.959 --> 03:15:11.719 with foreign connections and foreigners themselves are not just getting rich, 3448 03:15:11.760 --> 03:15:17.000 but I mean becoming just fabulously insanely wealthy bye by 3449 03:15:17.280 --> 03:15:20.600 looting your economy. That starts to draw up a certain 3450 03:15:20.639 --> 03:15:24.600 amount of resentment. You know. It's it's very fortunate in 3451 03:15:24.639 --> 03:15:27.280 a lot of ways that you know, you haven't seen 3452 03:15:28.639 --> 03:15:31.399 so much of that in Russia and Ukraine, specifically with 3453 03:15:31.440 --> 03:15:35.120 regard to the Jews, because you know, it's something that 3454 03:15:35.159 --> 03:15:37.760 you could have seen happening. You know, like in Russia, 3455 03:15:38.200 --> 03:15:40.719 you know, those seven oligarchs who won fifty eight percent 3456 03:15:40.840 --> 03:15:44.479 of the entire economy, six of them were Jewish. And 3457 03:15:44.559 --> 03:15:48.719 when Putin came along and sat the oligarchs down and 3458 03:15:48.799 --> 03:15:51.200 told them that you know, look, you guys are going 3459 03:15:51.280 --> 03:15:53.600 to stay billionaires. You're going to keep your businesses, you're 3460 03:15:53.600 --> 03:15:57.319 going to do all these things, but you're not part 3461 03:15:57.360 --> 03:16:01.719 of politics anymore. Like that's not yourusinessman, and that's it. Uh. 3462 03:16:01.959 --> 03:16:05.639 And if you are okay with that, then we're friends 3463 03:16:06.200 --> 03:16:08.600 and you're rich. If you're not okay with that, then 3464 03:16:08.600 --> 03:16:11.239 you're gonna have a problem with me. And the ones 3465 03:16:11.280 --> 03:16:13.520 who fled the country to New York. In London, in 3466 03:16:13.559 --> 03:16:18.719 Tel Aviv were primarily those non Russian oligarchs, and you know, 3467 03:16:18.840 --> 03:16:22.639 it's a it's it kind of goes to you think 3468 03:16:22.639 --> 03:16:25.680 about somebody like Bill Browder. You know, there's a guy 3469 03:16:25.719 --> 03:16:28.920 who was working with Sergei Magnitsky, the biggest to want 3470 03:16:28.959 --> 03:16:34.120 to talk about, like the biggest scam. Just it's mind blowing, 3471 03:16:34.200 --> 03:16:37.040 like how well this operation is worked because that guy, 3472 03:16:38.040 --> 03:16:40.360 that guy was a straight up criminal stealing from the 3473 03:16:40.399 --> 03:16:45.000 Russian government and Sergai Magnitsky was his accountant who was 3474 03:16:45.040 --> 03:16:49.040 helping him do that. I don't you know, the conditions 3475 03:16:49.040 --> 03:16:53.360 in Russian prisons are probably bad, and you know it's 3476 03:16:53.360 --> 03:16:55.600 not good that Magnitsky goes in there and ends up 3477 03:16:55.639 --> 03:17:02.200 dying of you know, sort of you say negligence, but 3478 03:17:02.520 --> 03:17:04.600 you know, who am I to talk when you look 3479 03:17:04.639 --> 03:17:07.200 at the condition of our prisons and you know the 3480 03:17:07.200 --> 03:17:10.840 conditions we throw people into. So but the point is, 3481 03:17:10.920 --> 03:17:13.879 like you know that Browder was one of these guys. 3482 03:17:13.920 --> 03:17:17.399 You know, people descended on that country like vultures, and 3483 03:17:17.440 --> 03:17:19.760 they went and they found local agents that they could 3484 03:17:19.840 --> 03:17:23.360 work with, people who were happy to exploit everyone around 3485 03:17:23.440 --> 03:17:26.879 them and do this, and you know, whoever they could 3486 03:17:26.879 --> 03:17:29.639 find was the most unscrupulous, you know, people around. It 3487 03:17:29.680 --> 03:17:32.479 was the most ruthless people around. You know, there's people 3488 03:17:32.639 --> 03:17:36.680 like these oligarch guys like Kotarkovsky, who you know is 3489 03:17:36.719 --> 03:17:39.719 held up as sort of some type of a human 3490 03:17:39.840 --> 03:17:44.520 rights icon, a dissident. That guy is a gangster who 3491 03:17:45.000 --> 03:17:47.719 if he had you know, lived the life he led 3492 03:17:47.719 --> 03:17:51.079 in the nineties in Texas instead of Russia, they'd have 3493 03:17:51.079 --> 03:17:53.399 put him in the gas chamber, you know, he would 3494 03:17:53.399 --> 03:17:56.520 he would have gotten the death penalty for that. And 3495 03:17:58.639 --> 03:18:01.760 you know, but it was a great gravy train. I mean, 3496 03:18:01.760 --> 03:18:05.000 you have like a giant, giant country with resources galore, 3497 03:18:05.600 --> 03:18:09.639 and every big financial institution across the West is just 3498 03:18:09.719 --> 03:18:13.479 making huge amounts of money, you know, pulling that wealth 3499 03:18:13.520 --> 03:18:16.920 out of the country. And in one country, you know, 3500 03:18:16.959 --> 03:18:18.639 a guy stepped in who put a stop to that. 3501 03:18:19.639 --> 03:18:22.200 Ukraine is what Russia would have looked like if Putin 3502 03:18:22.280 --> 03:18:25.000 never came along and the entire place was still I mean, 3503 03:18:25.000 --> 03:18:28.079 you look at like the people who were appointed as 3504 03:18:29.319 --> 03:18:32.719 governors of the different provinces in Ukraine after the Maidan Revolution. 3505 03:18:32.840 --> 03:18:34.959 There was a whole bunch of the oligarchs, you know, 3506 03:18:35.079 --> 03:18:37.319 often in control of the zones where a lot of 3507 03:18:37.319 --> 03:18:40.559 their particular industries were, you know, the rest were like 3508 03:18:40.680 --> 03:18:46.719 US State Department assets like Sakishvili and stuff. But yeah, 3509 03:18:46.799 --> 03:18:48.959 I mean, you know, Putin cut the gravy train off 3510 03:18:49.200 --> 03:18:52.719 and that was his great sin, and we've not forgiven 3511 03:18:52.760 --> 03:18:57.399 him for it. And you know, I think we had 3512 03:18:57.440 --> 03:19:00.280 this pipe dream, people like Victorian Newland had this pipe 3513 03:19:00.360 --> 03:19:04.920 dream that maybe we could we could we could open 3514 03:19:04.959 --> 03:19:07.440 them back up and maybe bring them back down a 3515 03:19:07.520 --> 03:19:09.360 notch or two so that we could we could get 3516 03:19:09.399 --> 03:19:14.319 the gravy train flowing again. Uh. But you know, it's 3517 03:19:14.360 --> 03:19:16.680 a very like like the people in Russia. They remember 3518 03:19:16.719 --> 03:19:19.920 what the nineties were like. They remember what it was like, 3519 03:19:20.000 --> 03:19:22.079 and their parents at least remember what it was like. 3520 03:19:22.280 --> 03:19:26.600 And they know that whether they there's you know, whether 3521 03:19:26.639 --> 03:19:29.120 they agree with the Ukraine War, whether they like Putin 3522 03:19:29.280 --> 03:19:32.079 or anything like that, what they know is ever since 3523 03:19:32.120 --> 03:19:35.399 Putin came along, the way things were in the nineties, 3524 03:19:35.399 --> 03:19:37.559 it's not like that anymore, you know, And they can 3525 03:19:37.600 --> 03:19:41.239 live normal lives in their country, and you know, those 3526 03:19:41.280 --> 03:19:43.319 people are going to stick by their leader when that's 3527 03:19:43.360 --> 03:19:47.319 the case, you know, because they know the downside. And uh, 3528 03:19:47.760 --> 03:19:50.799 you know, especially as time has gone on, and our 3529 03:19:51.799 --> 03:19:54.719 belligerence toward them and really are I mean our hatred 3530 03:19:54.799 --> 03:19:58.040 towards them, you know, And like we see things over 3531 03:19:58.079 --> 03:20:00.120 here that sort of go in and out of the news, 3532 03:20:00.159 --> 03:20:05.319 like when you know, some Russian tennis stars getting banned 3533 03:20:05.360 --> 03:20:09.719 from tennis tournaments and you know, Dostevsky's getting pulled from 3534 03:20:09.760 --> 03:20:12.159 the curriculum of some Harvard class or something like. We 3535 03:20:12.159 --> 03:20:14.360 see that and it's like, oh, it's so stupid and whatever. 3536 03:20:14.760 --> 03:20:17.040 That stuff is plastered on the six o'clock news in 3537 03:20:17.120 --> 03:20:20.479 Russia and everybody sees it and they think this is crazy. 3538 03:20:20.559 --> 03:20:24.920 These people are crazy, like they really hate us and 3539 03:20:26.479 --> 03:20:29.399 seek our destruction. And you know, and again I think 3540 03:20:29.440 --> 03:20:34.440 that most Americans don't naturally feel that way. But the 3541 03:20:34.520 --> 03:20:38.239 people the group who do feel that way, you know, 3542 03:20:38.319 --> 03:20:41.120 they're very well organized, very well funded, and they know 3543 03:20:41.159 --> 03:20:41.760 what they're doing. 3544 03:20:43.159 --> 03:20:45.399 So it's a safe to say that those people who 3545 03:20:46.200 --> 03:20:48.959 the gravy Train stopped, that putin put a stop to 3546 03:20:49.000 --> 03:20:55.879 the gravy train in the nineties were probably behind everything 3547 03:20:55.920 --> 03:20:58.719 that was happening in twenty thirteen, in twenty fourteen. 3548 03:21:00.920 --> 03:21:05.040 You know, they supported it, you know, financially, they backed 3549 03:21:05.040 --> 03:21:08.000 the think tanks that employ the people like Victoria Newland 3550 03:21:08.000 --> 03:21:10.479 when they are out of government, and they exert a 3551 03:21:10.479 --> 03:21:13.399 lot of influence in that sense, Like I don't think 3552 03:21:13.399 --> 03:21:16.719 that they're you know that that that you know, Roman 3553 03:21:16.760 --> 03:21:20.399 Abramovich is meeting with the president or the Prime Minister 3554 03:21:20.440 --> 03:21:23.600 of England and sort of giving him marching orders or 3555 03:21:23.639 --> 03:21:26.239 anything like that, but they exert the influence that they have. 3556 03:21:27.719 --> 03:21:31.440 And given the fact that the US and NATO sort 3557 03:21:31.440 --> 03:21:36.319 of foreign policy approach or Eastern Europe Russia approach, it's 3558 03:21:36.360 --> 03:21:38.920 kind of already geared in that direction. Like really, they're 3559 03:21:38.959 --> 03:21:41.040 just giving it sort of an extra push. You know, 3560 03:21:41.559 --> 03:21:44.920 it doesn't need much more of a push, and but 3561 03:21:44.920 --> 03:21:46.719 it's definitely a part of it. I mean, you're talking 3562 03:21:46.719 --> 03:21:50.760 about hundreds of billions of dollars, maybe trillions of dollars 3563 03:21:51.000 --> 03:21:53.159 they got pulled out of that country. They got pulled 3564 03:21:53.200 --> 03:21:55.520 out of Russia. I mean, we hear about the big 3565 03:21:55.559 --> 03:21:59.000 ones like Abramovic who left the country with forty billion 3566 03:21:59.040 --> 03:22:01.600 dollars or whatever, but they were hundreds of these people ultimately, 3567 03:22:01.799 --> 03:22:06.280 and you know, and that's not counting like the money 3568 03:22:06.280 --> 03:22:09.280 that got siphoned out to Western financial institutions as all 3569 03:22:09.319 --> 03:22:10.879 this was going on. So, I mean, you're talking about 3570 03:22:10.920 --> 03:22:14.120 a massive chunk of the Russian economy that was just 3571 03:22:14.159 --> 03:22:21.079 straight up looted. And you know, that's a it's a 3572 03:22:21.120 --> 03:22:23.120 hard thing to give up, you know. And when you 3573 03:22:23.159 --> 03:22:24.840 have a lot of in when when you're on that 3574 03:22:24.879 --> 03:22:27.200 gravy train and you've got a lot of influence with 3575 03:22:27.239 --> 03:22:31.959 the United States government, you're gonna try to pull that 3576 03:22:32.079 --> 03:22:34.319 lever to get it to act on your behalf. You know, 3577 03:22:34.360 --> 03:22:35.360 It's always been that way. 3578 03:22:36.879 --> 03:22:43.639 So the narrative when the Russia, when Russian invaded Ukraine, 3579 03:22:43.879 --> 03:22:46.360 was one of the narratives was that in the Donbas 3580 03:22:46.479 --> 03:22:53.559 region ethnic Russians had been slaughtered since twenty fourteen. Here 3581 03:22:53.680 --> 03:22:58.280 numbers anywhere from twelve thousands to thirty two thousand. Is 3582 03:22:59.520 --> 03:23:01.040 what do you know about that? I mean, how is 3583 03:23:01.079 --> 03:23:04.000 it happening? Were they bombing them? Were what was going on? 3584 03:23:04.719 --> 03:23:07.920 Yeah, a lot of artillery, mortars, things like that, primarily 3585 03:23:08.360 --> 03:23:11.520 as far as I know, aircraft weren't weren't primarily doing it, 3586 03:23:12.040 --> 03:23:15.120 but but yeah, I mean they were just sort of 3587 03:23:15.120 --> 03:23:19.920 indiscriminately targeting civilian areas and laughing about it. You know, 3588 03:23:20.000 --> 03:23:23.799 you had Poroshenko, who you know, gave that speech, and 3589 03:23:23.840 --> 03:23:26.520 he was bragging about how Russian children are going to 3590 03:23:26.520 --> 03:23:29.159 be hiding in basements or down Bass children are going 3591 03:23:29.239 --> 03:23:31.959 to be hiding in basements, you know, to avoid our 3592 03:23:32.200 --> 03:23:34.760 artillery while our kids are going to eat breakfast and 3593 03:23:34.799 --> 03:23:38.479 go to school. And it's just you know that we 3594 03:23:38.559 --> 03:23:41.120 have a word for that. When you know Arabs do 3595 03:23:41.200 --> 03:23:45.799 it or something, it's called terrorism. And you know, if 3596 03:23:45.840 --> 03:23:49.760 you look at the immediate aftermath of the Maidan coup, 3597 03:23:50.920 --> 03:23:54.719 there was essentially a nationwide pugrom against Russians, you know, 3598 03:23:54.840 --> 03:23:59.760 against Russian speakers and by you know, again a lot 3599 03:23:59.760 --> 03:24:01.680 of the you know, I've actually read like some of 3600 03:24:01.719 --> 03:24:04.879 the memoirs of these hardcore as of types. You know, 3601 03:24:04.920 --> 03:24:07.360 there's a few of them in English, and you kind 3602 03:24:07.399 --> 03:24:09.440 of feel for these guys in a way when you 3603 03:24:09.479 --> 03:24:11.280 read them, even if you think that you know, it's 3604 03:24:11.319 --> 03:24:14.440 sad that they're you know, puppets of a regime that 3605 03:24:14.520 --> 03:24:17.120 really does not care about them or their country at all, 3606 03:24:18.760 --> 03:24:22.479 and that they're you know, they're they're they're ignorant or 3607 03:24:22.520 --> 03:24:25.360 whatever for allowing themselves to be used that way. But 3608 03:24:25.399 --> 03:24:27.920 these are you know, these are hardcore like right wing 3609 03:24:28.000 --> 03:24:32.239 patriots in their country and in the context of their lives. 3610 03:24:32.280 --> 03:24:34.040 This is the way that it makes sense for them, 3611 03:24:34.120 --> 03:24:39.520 you know. And so when when you know twenty fourteen happened, 3612 03:24:40.479 --> 03:24:42.280 I mean you you know the famous ones, you know, 3613 03:24:42.399 --> 03:24:45.040 with a few dozen people getting burned alive in the 3614 03:24:45.079 --> 03:24:49.440 trade building uh in Odessa. But that was something that 3615 03:24:49.479 --> 03:24:52.840 was happening all over the place, people getting kidnapped because 3616 03:24:53.159 --> 03:24:55.760 they were ethnic Russians who were considered, you know, politically 3617 03:24:55.799 --> 03:24:59.520 unreliable in this new regime. And you're talking about hundreds 3618 03:24:59.559 --> 03:25:03.040 or thousand of people getting kidnapped and abused and tortured 3619 03:25:03.360 --> 03:25:08.920 and killed. And again we sort of, you know, we 3620 03:25:09.000 --> 03:25:11.000 sort of look at that. If it gets mentioned at 3621 03:25:11.040 --> 03:25:13.879 all over here, it sort of gets mentioned as like, well, yeah, 3622 03:25:13.959 --> 03:25:16.879 there was a violent there was a revolution, and revolutions 3623 03:25:16.879 --> 03:25:20.440 are crazy and bad things happened, and you know in 3624 03:25:20.479 --> 03:25:24.239 any revolution, and that's true enough. But you know, this 3625 03:25:24.440 --> 03:25:30.000 is if if you look at that from the Russian perspective, 3626 03:25:30.559 --> 03:25:33.000 you know, from the perspective I was talking about earlier wherever, 3627 03:25:33.040 --> 03:25:37.319 since the early nineties, somebody like Yeltsin was expressing concern 3628 03:25:37.479 --> 03:25:40.120 over the fate of ethnic Russians in these countries, whether 3629 03:25:40.159 --> 03:25:42.440 the nationalist fervor was going to get out of control 3630 03:25:42.520 --> 03:25:46.959 and make their lives too hard, and just continually expressing 3631 03:25:46.959 --> 03:25:51.440 concern about that over the years, and then watching that happen, 3632 03:25:51.600 --> 03:25:56.239 watching all of those kidnappings and murders happen, watching down 3633 03:25:56.319 --> 03:26:01.360 Bass neighborhoods get get you know, bombarded by our artillery. 3634 03:26:01.479 --> 03:26:04.440 It's gonna be very provocative, you know, and especially when 3635 03:26:04.479 --> 03:26:09.799 you have larger geopolitical reasons to want to draw a 3636 03:26:09.799 --> 03:26:13.680 line in the sand, you know, which which obviously was 3637 03:26:13.840 --> 03:26:16.879 you know, was probably like the stuff I just talked 3638 03:26:16.879 --> 03:26:19.440 about the ethnic Russians. I mean that probably gave the uh, 3639 03:26:20.120 --> 03:26:23.200 you know, the sort of emotional impulse and the it 3640 03:26:23.319 --> 03:26:26.440 sort of drives the enthusiasm for the war effort and 3641 03:26:26.479 --> 03:26:29.840 the cohesion in Russia maybe to a large degree. But 3642 03:26:29.920 --> 03:26:32.239 I mean, make no mistake, They're in this war because 3643 03:26:32.280 --> 03:26:36.479 they felt, from a geopolitical standpoint like they had no choice, 3644 03:26:36.680 --> 03:26:39.520 and you know, and I think we knew that, and 3645 03:26:39.559 --> 03:26:42.440 I think we put them in that position on purpose. 3646 03:26:44.239 --> 03:26:44.319 It. 3647 03:26:44.479 --> 03:26:48.840 You know, I do think that that probably we thought 3648 03:26:49.200 --> 03:26:51.920 that they would continue to back down forever because we're 3649 03:26:51.959 --> 03:26:55.639 America and they won't. Dare we overestimated our own capability 3650 03:26:55.680 --> 03:26:59.239 to cripple them and underestimated their capability to sustain a war. 3651 03:27:01.559 --> 03:27:04.000 But we knew we were putting him in that position. 3652 03:27:04.120 --> 03:27:06.360 You know, the current CIA director was the ambassador to 3653 03:27:06.399 --> 03:27:09.600 Russia back in two thousand and eight, and in January 3654 03:27:09.600 --> 03:27:11.639 of two thousand and eight he wrote this, you know, 3655 03:27:11.760 --> 03:27:15.040 kind of famous now memo back to Condoleeza Rice, who 3656 03:27:15.040 --> 03:27:17.920 was Secretary of State at the time, called neet means 3657 03:27:18.000 --> 03:27:22.440 net and in it he, I mean, it's so it's uncanny, 3658 03:27:22.520 --> 03:27:25.120 like how specific he is about the whole thing. He says, Look, 3659 03:27:25.719 --> 03:27:29.120 I'm over here talking not just forget putin, I'm talking 3660 03:27:29.159 --> 03:27:33.719 to everybody in the upper echelons of Russian power, military people, civilians. 3661 03:27:34.200 --> 03:27:39.840 It doesn't matter. They are unanimous that. You know, they 3662 03:27:39.879 --> 03:27:42.639 put up with NATO expansion in the Baltics and these 3663 03:27:42.680 --> 03:27:44.920 other places, you know, because they had no choice because 3664 03:27:44.920 --> 03:27:49.399 they couldn't do anything about it. But that expanding NATO 3665 03:27:49.520 --> 03:27:53.680 into Ukraine and expanding it into Georgia are absolute red 3666 03:27:53.719 --> 03:27:57.040 lines that they just they simply cannot tolerate and they 3667 03:27:57.079 --> 03:27:59.680 will be forced to act. And then he said specifically, 3668 03:27:59.680 --> 03:28:05.879 he said they're concerned in Ukraine, is that if like 3669 03:28:05.879 --> 03:28:08.559 like our movement to try to to try to push 3670 03:28:08.600 --> 03:28:11.799 that idea and try to get them in there would 3671 03:28:11.879 --> 03:28:14.200 lead to tension between the Russian ethnic Russians in the 3672 03:28:14.280 --> 03:28:18.319 east and the Ukrainians in the west who you know, 3673 03:28:18.440 --> 03:28:21.159 as that debate over whether they should join NATO or 3674 03:28:21.159 --> 03:28:24.280 could they join NATO and everything heat it up, that 3675 03:28:24.319 --> 03:28:26.600 it would lead to conflict between those two peoples and 3676 03:28:26.639 --> 03:28:30.680 possibly even civil war and that and this is remarkable, 3677 03:28:30.680 --> 03:28:33.719 he said, and that Russia would have to decide whether 3678 03:28:33.840 --> 03:28:37.120 or not to intervene, which is a decision they do 3679 03:28:37.280 --> 03:28:40.760 not want to have to face. And I mean, so 3680 03:28:41.760 --> 03:28:44.079 the State departments kind of lesa. Rice gets that memo 3681 03:28:44.200 --> 03:28:47.840 from her ambassador to Russia, and three months later, in 3682 03:28:47.959 --> 03:28:51.159 March of that same year, just three months later, at 3683 03:28:51.159 --> 03:28:53.639 the NATO summit, we come out and say, yeah, Ukraine 3684 03:28:53.680 --> 03:28:57.920 and Georgia are going to join NATO. And so you know, 3685 03:28:58.239 --> 03:29:03.959 it didn't take long obviously before the president in Georgia 3686 03:29:04.159 --> 03:29:07.239 saka's Vili, because we had the short Georgia War over there. 3687 03:29:07.600 --> 03:29:09.280 You know, sakes Vili is a guy who you know, 3688 03:29:09.319 --> 03:29:12.440 he's educated in the United States. Literally like was over 3689 03:29:14.280 --> 03:29:16.559 like as part of a State Department program you know, 3690 03:29:16.600 --> 03:29:19.280 and he's he's a Georgian. But for some reason after 3691 03:29:19.319 --> 03:29:21.319 the Midon coup, he got put in charge of the 3692 03:29:21.319 --> 03:29:25.319 Odessa Oblast in Ukraine as the governor there. For nobody 3693 03:29:25.440 --> 03:29:29.360 can really explain why, but everything everybody knows why. And so, 3694 03:29:29.959 --> 03:29:32.479 you know, Georgia had a problem when it came to 3695 03:29:33.159 --> 03:29:35.600 joining NATO, which is, you can't join NATO if you 3696 03:29:35.600 --> 03:29:39.920 have an ongoing territorial dispute, because it essentially would immediately 3697 03:29:39.959 --> 03:29:42.440 require NATO to get involved with that territorial disview. So 3698 03:29:42.440 --> 03:29:44.600 you have to clear that up first. And he had 3699 03:29:45.040 --> 03:29:49.000 that problem up in Ostya and the northern region of 3700 03:29:49.000 --> 03:29:51.280 his country that had been sort of in an uneasy 3701 03:29:51.360 --> 03:29:55.239 but steady peace since the early nineties where they sort 3702 03:29:55.239 --> 03:29:57.799 of governed themselves with some autonomy and there were peacekeepers 3703 03:29:57.799 --> 03:30:00.520 in there and stuff, and it was fun. You know, 3704 03:30:00.920 --> 03:30:05.120 it wasn't resolved, but it was fine, and he needed 3705 03:30:05.120 --> 03:30:06.920 to clear that up, and so he moved to clear 3706 03:30:06.920 --> 03:30:10.600 it up. And so the Russians moved in and kicked 3707 03:30:10.600 --> 03:30:12.959 their ass and pushed them back. And you know, you 3708 03:30:13.000 --> 03:30:17.079 had John McCain like telling us like he was literally 3709 03:30:17.159 --> 03:30:21.000 John McCain was calling for us to to bomb the 3710 03:30:21.040 --> 03:30:23.719 tunnels that the Russians were driving their tanks and their 3711 03:30:23.799 --> 03:30:26.680 armored vehicles through, and like just attack the Russians directly, 3712 03:30:26.879 --> 03:30:31.719 Just madman for for what, you know, to bring Georgia 3713 03:30:31.840 --> 03:30:37.239 into Ukraine something that doesn't improve or rather to bring 3714 03:30:37.280 --> 03:30:41.760 Georgia into NATO, something that doesn't improve NATO's fighting ability, 3715 03:30:41.799 --> 03:30:45.520 its ability to extend nothing like that. Like all Georgia 3716 03:30:45.760 --> 03:30:48.360 would be to NATO is an out of the way 3717 03:30:49.079 --> 03:30:54.000 new obligation that really didn't provide any kind of countervailing 3718 03:30:54.040 --> 03:30:56.920 benefits to NATO itself. And you know, it kind of 3719 03:30:57.000 --> 03:30:59.559 shows what the purpose of a lot of this NATO 3720 03:30:59.600 --> 03:31:04.200 expansion is. And you know, if Georgia, like Georgia is 3721 03:31:04.239 --> 03:31:09.399 not anywhere near the North Atlantic. You know, I asked 3722 03:31:09.440 --> 03:31:11.280 a question when I was I was talking to a 3723 03:31:11.399 --> 03:31:14.760 Lavian guy I know who's very very anti Russian, pro Ukrainian, 3724 03:31:16.040 --> 03:31:19.040 and he denied that you know this, the NATO expansion 3725 03:31:19.079 --> 03:31:21.920 was sort of targeting Russia, that it was directed at Russia, 3726 03:31:22.319 --> 03:31:25.360 something that I think is sort of self evidently silly. 3727 03:31:25.440 --> 03:31:27.479 But I said, why don't why aren't we trying to 3728 03:31:27.479 --> 03:31:33.200 bring uh Brazil into NATO. Brazil's at least on the Atlantic, 3729 03:31:33.280 --> 03:31:35.639 you know, but we're trying to bring Georgia INTONATO. Why 3730 03:31:35.719 --> 03:31:37.840 is that, like, why is it only countries that are 3731 03:31:37.840 --> 03:31:41.079 pushing in and surrounding this one country? And I think 3732 03:31:41.079 --> 03:31:45.879 the you know, the answer is pretty obvious. And you know, 3733 03:31:46.280 --> 03:31:49.639 a certain point, you know, a leader of a country 3734 03:31:49.760 --> 03:31:55.280 has to has to you know, you come to a 3735 03:31:55.520 --> 03:31:59.840 Meersheimer talks about this right where you can you know, 3736 03:32:00.959 --> 03:32:05.440 you can believe like Vladimir Putin can believe that the 3737 03:32:05.559 --> 03:32:08.799 United States and NATO don't want to attack Russia, that 3738 03:32:08.840 --> 03:32:12.200 they can expand into Ukraine and Georgia and everywhere else. 3739 03:32:12.280 --> 03:32:16.000 And that does not mean and probably and almost certainly 3740 03:32:16.040 --> 03:32:18.920 doesn't mean that one day they're going to wake up 3741 03:32:18.920 --> 03:32:21.040 and it's going to be June nineteen forty one again 3742 03:32:21.079 --> 03:32:24.719 in American tanks are just Russian Like, he doesn't think 3743 03:32:24.760 --> 03:32:29.319 that's going to happen, but he's responsible for national security 3744 03:32:29.319 --> 03:32:31.959 in Russia. And so unless he can say for sure 3745 03:32:32.040 --> 03:32:34.360 that's not going to happen, you know, you have to 3746 03:32:34.360 --> 03:32:37.920 take steps to protect yourself. And we just haven't respected 3747 03:32:37.959 --> 03:32:43.079 that at all. You know, we've treated Russia like like 3748 03:32:43.159 --> 03:32:45.680 al Qaeda or something ever since you know, the mid 3749 03:32:45.680 --> 03:32:49.440 two thousands, as if none of their concerns nothing, they 3750 03:32:49.479 --> 03:32:52.680 say nothing, they worry, none of those have any legitimacy, 3751 03:32:52.719 --> 03:32:56.639 Like we're not concerned with what isis' you know, grievances are, 3752 03:32:56.760 --> 03:33:00.600 what their security concerns are. Just kill them that right, 3753 03:33:00.879 --> 03:33:03.079 And we treated Russia that way like just they have 3754 03:33:03.200 --> 03:33:07.360 no legitimate interests or concerns whatsoever. And look, if you 3755 03:33:07.399 --> 03:33:10.280 treat a country that's been around for a thousand years 3756 03:33:10.399 --> 03:33:15.280 and has, you know, a strong sort of cultural base 3757 03:33:15.399 --> 03:33:17.920 to build a sense of strong nationalism out of, if 3758 03:33:17.920 --> 03:33:21.600 it comes down to it, eventually they're gonna buck. And 3759 03:33:21.920 --> 03:33:26.280 you know, Russia bucked and and again hopefully with the 3760 03:33:27.079 --> 03:33:30.079 with the resignation of Victoria Newland, we maybe coming to 3761 03:33:30.159 --> 03:33:32.440 the end of at least this current cycle of that. 3762 03:33:33.520 --> 03:33:42.079 Obama sent Ukraine money, Trump sent money and guns. Why 3763 03:33:42.319 --> 03:33:43.959 why do you think Putin waited so long? 3764 03:33:46.559 --> 03:33:50.360 Yeah, so, I mean, look, part of it is that Putin, 3765 03:33:51.399 --> 03:33:56.399 I think it's clear that he genuinely wanted to find 3766 03:33:56.399 --> 03:33:59.639 a peaceful resolution of this. You know, the Russians were 3767 03:34:01.319 --> 03:34:04.239 coming to the table to negotiate the Minsk agreements in 3768 03:34:04.319 --> 03:34:07.280 good faith. You know, let's work something out where like 3769 03:34:07.399 --> 03:34:12.159 look at the beginning of the war. The Russian military 3770 03:34:12.200 --> 03:34:15.319 did move in like for a while in twenty fourteen fifteen, 3771 03:34:15.600 --> 03:34:19.000 and they routed the disorganized Ukrainian forces at the time, 3772 03:34:19.079 --> 03:34:20.799 and they could have pushed them back, but they didn't, 3773 03:34:21.399 --> 03:34:24.600 you know, they stopped their progress and then they went 3774 03:34:24.639 --> 03:34:26.799 back to Russia, you know, other than some special forces 3775 03:34:26.799 --> 03:34:31.559 little green men or whatever. And when you know, they 3776 03:34:31.760 --> 03:34:35.479 annexed Crimea, and the leaders in the separatist area of 3777 03:34:35.559 --> 03:34:38.719 don Bass, they said, well, do us like we do 3778 03:34:38.799 --> 03:34:41.159 us next, you know, we want to be annexed to Russia. 3779 03:34:41.200 --> 03:34:43.760 And Putin said, no, you know, we did it with 3780 03:34:43.879 --> 03:34:48.520 Crimea because like that's just so strategically critical for us 3781 03:34:48.559 --> 03:34:51.600 that you know, we can't risk losing our navy base 3782 03:34:51.639 --> 03:34:55.600 and so forth. But no, he told them, no, you 3783 03:34:55.680 --> 03:34:58.559 literally had okay, like and this was what's really crazy. 3784 03:34:58.559 --> 03:35:02.479 It's a great documentary that PBS series Frontline put out 3785 03:35:02.520 --> 03:35:08.000 back in twenty fourteen. I think it's called Yeah, I 3786 03:35:08.000 --> 03:35:10.000 can't remember, but it's like a thirty five to forty 3787 03:35:10.000 --> 03:35:13.040 minute documentary about what's going on in what was going 3788 03:35:13.079 --> 03:35:16.079 on in Ukraine at the time, and it's remarkably balanced. 3789 03:35:16.120 --> 03:35:19.319 You would never see anything like this on like American media, 3790 03:35:19.440 --> 03:35:23.559 mainstream media today, it's quite balanced. And they there's a 3791 03:35:23.680 --> 03:35:29.600 scene where the reporter is in Kharkiv and you know 3792 03:35:29.639 --> 03:35:32.559 there's like an old woman and a crowd of people, 3793 03:35:32.559 --> 03:35:35.479 but like an old woman specifically who's on her knees 3794 03:35:35.680 --> 03:35:38.840 and she's crying and saying Putin, please save us, Please 3795 03:35:38.879 --> 03:35:41.840 save us from you know, from the fascists. They hate us, 3796 03:35:41.840 --> 03:35:44.000 they're going to kill us, Please save us. And so 3797 03:35:44.079 --> 03:35:47.879 those people asked Putin to annex them and protect them, 3798 03:35:47.879 --> 03:35:51.040 and he said no because he thought like that was 3799 03:35:51.079 --> 03:35:54.159 a bridge too far. And you know, with the state 3800 03:35:54.200 --> 03:35:56.440 that the Ukrainian military was in at that point, he 3801 03:35:56.479 --> 03:35:58.959 easily could have done it. There's nothing Ukraine. There were 3802 03:35:58.959 --> 03:36:02.200 a bunch of militias, you know basically at that point. 3803 03:36:02.239 --> 03:36:04.680 You know, they're totally disorganized. We hadn't trained them, we 3804 03:36:04.680 --> 03:36:06.520 hadn't armed him, anything like that. And he said no. 3805 03:36:07.559 --> 03:36:12.600 And so he spends years, you know, participating in these 3806 03:36:12.639 --> 03:36:17.280 in these min's negotiations, which would have kept the don 3807 03:36:17.360 --> 03:36:21.239 Bassist part of Ukraine, but you know, had a sort 3808 03:36:21.239 --> 03:36:25.280 of semi autonomous governance system that would allow them to 3809 03:36:25.360 --> 03:36:27.840 kind of do their own thing within the context of 3810 03:36:27.920 --> 03:36:30.879 Ukrainian government to make sure that those people were protected 3811 03:36:31.000 --> 03:36:35.719 from you know, a Ukrainian government that was was like 3812 03:36:35.920 --> 03:36:38.319 literally their parliament was full of people who had just 3813 03:36:38.440 --> 03:36:41.440 led pogroms against Russians, like all across the country. And so, 3814 03:36:43.600 --> 03:36:47.479 you know, I think he just genuinely wanted to find 3815 03:36:47.520 --> 03:36:51.600 a peaceful solution to the whole thing, maybe partly because 3816 03:36:51.600 --> 03:36:53.280 you know, I think Putin and you saw this a 3817 03:36:53.280 --> 03:36:57.559 little bit in that Tucker interview, I think he's probably 3818 03:36:57.799 --> 03:37:00.200 he seems like he's at the point now where he's 3819 03:37:00.239 --> 03:37:02.559 done with the United States, like there's nothing we can 3820 03:37:02.600 --> 03:37:05.639 say that he can trust, there's no deal we can 3821 03:37:05.680 --> 03:37:09.600 make that he would consider reliable anymore. But I think 3822 03:37:09.719 --> 03:37:13.120 long term, he does still care about his relations with 3823 03:37:13.159 --> 03:37:17.360 Europe and he's looking forward to a possible future where 3824 03:37:17.799 --> 03:37:21.680 you know, Europe is something more than just an American 3825 03:37:21.760 --> 03:37:26.319 base and he can start to repair those relations at least. 3826 03:37:26.319 --> 03:37:30.159 And so maybe he pursued the Minsk Ac courts because 3827 03:37:30.159 --> 03:37:32.079 of that. But then you know, you go through all 3828 03:37:32.120 --> 03:37:35.680 that trouble, all that trouble, and then you know, you 3829 03:37:35.719 --> 03:37:40.959 see the German Chancellor as a French official, like people 3830 03:37:40.959 --> 03:37:43.200 coming out and saying that was all that was all 3831 03:37:43.680 --> 03:37:46.479 BS like, we didn't the whole Minsk thing was just 3832 03:37:46.520 --> 03:37:48.879 to drag things out and to make sure Russia didn't 3833 03:37:48.879 --> 03:37:52.000 move in and take over, to give us time to 3834 03:37:52.040 --> 03:37:54.920 build up the Ukrainian forces and get them armed and trained. 3835 03:37:55.239 --> 03:37:58.920 And could you imagine hearing that like as a Russian official, 3836 03:37:59.680 --> 03:38:05.000 I mean mean, yeah, it's uh, because I can, and 3837 03:38:05.319 --> 03:38:08.399 it would it would pretty much permanently break you know, 3838 03:38:08.479 --> 03:38:12.200 my ability to take any any negotiation with these people 3839 03:38:12.239 --> 03:38:17.040 seriously again. And so you know, I think when he invaded, 3840 03:38:17.360 --> 03:38:22.200 it's when it became clear to him that the peaceful 3841 03:38:22.200 --> 03:38:24.520 solutions that that he had been pursuing up to that 3842 03:38:24.600 --> 03:38:27.719 point were just not going to happen. You know, if 3843 03:38:27.760 --> 03:38:32.360 you look at the week or two right before, right 3844 03:38:32.360 --> 03:38:38.760 before the invasion, from day to day to day, if 3845 03:38:38.799 --> 03:38:40.239 you look at it, you know, there's a there's a 3846 03:38:40.360 --> 03:38:45.319 UN organization over there that was monitoring the ceasefire. Right 3847 03:38:45.360 --> 03:38:48.159 they had a ceasefire where you know, you could use 3848 03:38:48.159 --> 03:38:50.799 small arms and stuff, and so the Ukrainians could do 3849 03:38:50.879 --> 03:38:54.120 counter terrorism stuff with like small arms, tactics and stuff, 3850 03:38:54.120 --> 03:38:57.399 but you couldn't use a whole range of heavy weapons, artillery, 3851 03:38:57.479 --> 03:39:00.479 and mortars and all these other things, and there were violets, 3852 03:39:00.600 --> 03:39:04.000 you know, one way and violations the other way occasionally, 3853 03:39:04.159 --> 03:39:07.840 like as like the Minska agreements were being negotiated and 3854 03:39:07.879 --> 03:39:09.959 so forth. And then in a couple of weeks just 3855 03:39:10.040 --> 03:39:13.280 prior to the invasion, you know, it goes from like 3856 03:39:14.120 --> 03:39:16.079 and they're all on one side, they're all coming from 3857 03:39:16.159 --> 03:39:20.879 the Ukrainian side, firing toward the Donbass. It goes from 3858 03:39:20.959 --> 03:39:27.120 like thirty violations, eighty violations, the next day, three hundred violations, 3859 03:39:27.159 --> 03:39:30.239 a thousand violations. I mean, they're just ramping this up. 3860 03:39:30.280 --> 03:39:34.719 And then Russia invades, and you know, the sort of 3861 03:39:34.719 --> 03:39:38.840 defenders of US policy over there will try to convince 3862 03:39:38.879 --> 03:39:42.559 me that that had nothing to do with Russia invading, 3863 03:39:43.319 --> 03:39:47.120 but you know, to me, like the default position should 3864 03:39:47.120 --> 03:39:51.799 be to assume that it did, and that you know, that, 3865 03:39:51.959 --> 03:39:55.799 along with a lot of other things, just led up 3866 03:39:55.840 --> 03:39:58.079 to a point where Russia realized that if we wait 3867 03:39:58.120 --> 03:40:02.680 another year, then they don't have to bring Ukraine into NATO. 3868 03:40:02.760 --> 03:40:05.479 They're making it a NATO country right now, right before 3869 03:40:05.520 --> 03:40:08.440 our eyes. They're not calling it that, they're not moving 3870 03:40:08.559 --> 03:40:13.120 forty thousand US troops in there yet or anything but 3871 03:40:14.399 --> 03:40:18.879 you know, they're in every other way imaginable. They're essentially 3872 03:40:18.920 --> 03:40:21.000 turning this into what it would be if it was 3873 03:40:21.040 --> 03:40:23.040 a NATO country, and they're going to get to a 3874 03:40:23.079 --> 03:40:25.479 certain point where we're not going to be able to 3875 03:40:25.479 --> 03:40:28.559 do anything about it, you know, because if it gets 3876 03:40:28.600 --> 03:40:31.760 to to a certain point and they continue to think 3877 03:40:31.799 --> 03:40:35.520 that we're just not going to act, and then, you know, 3878 03:40:35.920 --> 03:40:38.319 in a very short period of time, you know, an 3879 03:40:38.360 --> 03:40:42.399 executive order comes down and thirty thousand American troops are 3880 03:40:42.479 --> 03:40:44.959 landed in Ukraine and take up residence in a base 3881 03:40:45.000 --> 03:40:47.600 that we're calling permanent. Now Russia has to face the 3882 03:40:47.639 --> 03:40:51.399 decision of whether to invade and attack American troops. Like 3883 03:40:51.440 --> 03:40:53.760 that's a whole different ballgame, and I think he just 3884 03:40:53.799 --> 03:40:57.719 decided that we can't wait any longer. We just can't, 3885 03:40:57.840 --> 03:41:00.719 you know. And also actually around the same time, like 3886 03:41:01.079 --> 03:41:03.799 a little bit beforehand, is when you had that attempted 3887 03:41:03.840 --> 03:41:08.200 color revolution in Belarus, and that may have had something 3888 03:41:08.239 --> 03:41:10.920 to do with like him just you know, deciding like 3889 03:41:10.959 --> 03:41:13.639 these the Americans are never going to stop, Like these 3890 03:41:13.639 --> 03:41:19.280 people are just absolutely relentless, and at a certain point, 3891 03:41:19.360 --> 03:41:22.680 you just you know, there's even if you think you're 3892 03:41:22.719 --> 03:41:25.280 gonna get your ass kicked. Sometimes you have no choice 3893 03:41:25.319 --> 03:41:27.079 but to plant your feet and punch the bully in 3894 03:41:27.120 --> 03:41:27.479 the mouth. 3895 03:41:29.799 --> 03:41:35.159 Oh, they're not getting their ass kicked. They're you know, unfortunately, 3896 03:41:35.280 --> 03:41:39.440 the I know that putin immediately after the invasion started 3897 03:41:39.520 --> 03:41:42.559 asking for you know, hey, let's talk about this, let's 3898 03:41:42.639 --> 03:41:46.000 let's find a piece, and it's just going on and on. 3899 03:41:46.760 --> 03:41:50.799 And I think what we found out, I don't know, 3900 03:41:50.840 --> 03:41:53.040 maybe maybe you can correct me if you think I'm 3901 03:41:53.079 --> 03:41:56.959 wrong on this is that, well, at least against the 3902 03:41:57.079 --> 03:42:02.200 Ukrainian military, the Russian military is pretty form Yeah. 3903 03:42:02.200 --> 03:42:04.399 And I would even add to that a bit by 3904 03:42:04.600 --> 03:42:07.120 you know, I think a lot of people in the 3905 03:42:07.120 --> 03:42:10.479 West have this, have this idea of like, yeah, but 3906 03:42:10.520 --> 03:42:14.479 it's the Ukrainians, you know, it's just the Ukrainians. This 3907 03:42:14.559 --> 03:42:17.159 is a this is an army. Now, I mean, they're 3908 03:42:17.200 --> 03:42:19.639 they're again scraping the bottom of the barrel at this point. 3909 03:42:19.719 --> 03:42:22.479 But you know, in the in the meat of this war, 3910 03:42:23.440 --> 03:42:25.920 this was an army that was trained and equipped up 3911 03:42:25.959 --> 03:42:31.399 to NATO standards. And I would say, you know, look, 3912 03:42:32.040 --> 03:42:36.280 I think your average Ukrainian male, you know, who joins 3913 03:42:36.280 --> 03:42:41.639 the military voluntarily, that he is not a hell of 3914 03:42:41.680 --> 03:42:45.360 a lot tougher than like your average guy in France 3915 03:42:45.760 --> 03:42:49.120 or Germany or America for that matter. You're damn right. 3916 03:42:49.120 --> 03:42:51.399 Ideas like those guys are no joke. These guys are 3917 03:42:51.520 --> 03:42:55.440 are motivated, they're serious, they're well trained, they're well equipped, 3918 03:42:55.680 --> 03:42:59.360 and other than honestly, like other than the US and 3919 03:43:00.479 --> 03:43:04.520 maybe Turkey and Poland you go back to like just 3920 03:43:04.559 --> 03:43:08.040 before the war started in twenty twenty two, and Ukrainian 3921 03:43:08.079 --> 03:43:10.079 military probably would have kicked the hell out of any 3922 03:43:10.159 --> 03:43:13.719 NATO country one on one, you know, in a straight 3923 03:43:13.760 --> 03:43:17.000 up fight. I mean, this is a formidable force. And 3924 03:43:17.159 --> 03:43:19.399 you know, people talk about the difference in population, which 3925 03:43:19.440 --> 03:43:21.479 obviously is coming into play at this point. But at 3926 03:43:21.520 --> 03:43:24.399 the same time, you know, Russia doesn't look at Ukraine 3927 03:43:24.440 --> 03:43:26.840 and say, oh, this is such a tiny country that 3928 03:43:27.120 --> 03:43:30.479 Ukraine's got about the same ratio of population to Russia 3929 03:43:30.520 --> 03:43:33.280 now that Germany did in nineteen forty one to the 3930 03:43:33.280 --> 03:43:36.239 Soviet Union. I mean, and they know how much damage 3931 03:43:36.280 --> 03:43:39.239 you know, a small country can do they if they 3932 03:43:39.280 --> 03:43:43.760 bust loose and break out, and so you know Ukraine 3933 03:43:43.959 --> 03:43:46.639 is I mean, they showed it. Look, you take nothing 3934 03:43:46.680 --> 03:43:49.680 away from the actual guys on the ground who were fighting. 3935 03:43:49.719 --> 03:43:53.680 They showed their willingness for a long time. And it 3936 03:43:53.840 --> 03:43:56.159 looks like the edges are starting to fray now. But 3937 03:43:56.200 --> 03:43:59.280 these guys showed their willingness to die in place, you know, 3938 03:43:59.399 --> 03:44:01.840 to hold their ground and fight to the last man, 3939 03:44:01.959 --> 03:44:05.399 very often not surrender when it was obvious that there 3940 03:44:05.440 --> 03:44:07.280 was nowhere to go and that the fight was over. 3941 03:44:07.959 --> 03:44:12.920 And you know, these guys are very motivated game fighters 3942 03:44:13.000 --> 03:44:16.879 who who gave the look I mean Putin did not. 3943 03:44:18.600 --> 03:44:22.879 People look at like the initial invasion when Putin supposedly 3944 03:44:22.879 --> 03:44:24.879 thought he was going to conquer all of Ukraine and 3945 03:44:24.920 --> 03:44:27.280 take Kiev and all that kind of stuff, and you know, 3946 03:44:27.319 --> 03:44:29.559 it's so silly, like when you look at the amount 3947 03:44:29.559 --> 03:44:32.840 of troops and specifically like which troops, A lot of 3948 03:44:32.879 --> 03:44:35.079 a lot of Wagner troops and stuff who were brought in. 3949 03:44:36.840 --> 03:44:40.520 You know, it was the whole country coming in on 3950 03:44:40.559 --> 03:44:45.319 five different axes. Was barely enough troops to throw at 3951 03:44:45.399 --> 03:44:48.360 one of Ukraine's secondary cities. I mean, if you're really 3952 03:44:48.360 --> 03:44:51.360 going to take it like you know, it was clear 3953 03:44:51.399 --> 03:44:53.639 from the beginning that that was not what they were 3954 03:44:53.680 --> 03:44:57.079 trying to do. I think that they probably severely miscalculated 3955 03:44:58.639 --> 03:45:02.000 and thought that is one. As we show that we're serious, 3956 03:45:02.440 --> 03:45:05.360 than the ukrainians'll panic can come to the table and 3957 03:45:05.399 --> 03:45:08.680 then they'll sign a real deal and we can you know, 3958 03:45:08.760 --> 03:45:10.520 get this done. And so you see it, and like 3959 03:45:10.520 --> 03:45:13.040 the in the tactics they employed with you know, you 3960 03:45:13.040 --> 03:45:18.000 have columns of armor just rolling down country roads with 3961 03:45:18.239 --> 03:45:21.959 no infantry support, no nothing, and they end up getting shredded. 3962 03:45:22.000 --> 03:45:24.000 And it's because I don't, you know, they weren't they 3963 03:45:24.000 --> 03:45:27.719 weren't expecting a fight. They weren't expecting the kind of 3964 03:45:27.760 --> 03:45:30.000 resistance that they got, so they didn't go in prepared 3965 03:45:30.040 --> 03:45:33.719 for it. But then even for months after that, you know, 3966 03:45:33.799 --> 03:45:36.159 for months and months after that, it was very apparent. 3967 03:45:36.280 --> 03:45:40.399 I think that Putin like he didn't want to admit 3968 03:45:40.559 --> 03:45:42.840 that this was even a war. You know, they call 3969 03:45:42.879 --> 03:45:45.479 it a special military operation for a long time, and 3970 03:45:45.520 --> 03:45:49.440 it took them a long time to mobilize. And uh, 3971 03:45:49.719 --> 03:45:52.879 you know, even to this day, Uh, you know, Putin's 3972 03:45:53.000 --> 03:45:56.479 rockets could have flattened Kiev a long time ago. You know, 3973 03:45:56.479 --> 03:45:59.079 at the beginning of the Iraq War, both the Iraq wars, 3974 03:45:59.319 --> 03:46:01.360 the first thing we did, we knocked out their entire 3975 03:46:01.360 --> 03:46:05.399 communications grid, destroyed all their power all their clean water, 3976 03:46:05.760 --> 03:46:08.079 they're all their infrastructure. We just wiped it out like 3977 03:46:08.120 --> 03:46:11.239 the first night, you know, in Iraq. Putin didn't do 3978 03:46:11.239 --> 03:46:13.680 any of that. For like a year, he wasn't doing 3979 03:46:13.719 --> 03:46:16.799 any of that, and uh, you know, and he still 3980 03:46:16.879 --> 03:46:19.280 is not attacking Kiev when he could be. He could 3981 03:46:19.280 --> 03:46:21.920 be doing that and he's not. And I think, uh, 3982 03:46:22.600 --> 03:46:26.040 you know, he he for up until the mobilization, which 3983 03:46:26.040 --> 03:46:28.959 I think was probably driven by internal pressure from people 3984 03:46:29.000 --> 03:46:33.559 to his right in the Russian establishment. Uh you know 3985 03:46:33.719 --> 03:46:38.000 that that he was still trying to find some way 3986 03:46:38.040 --> 03:46:42.280 to get this done with minimal damage to both sides, 3987 03:46:42.319 --> 03:46:45.360 you know, and then he finally just had to admit, Okay, no, 3988 03:46:45.600 --> 03:46:49.479 this is a war, and I can't sign a deal 3989 03:46:49.559 --> 03:46:51.879 with the Americans or with NATO nothing that they say 3990 03:46:51.959 --> 03:46:55.120 is reliable. I just have to, you know, fight this 3991 03:46:55.200 --> 03:46:57.719 thing to the to the end until this country is 3992 03:46:57.760 --> 03:47:00.159 no longer a threat to me and and not an 3993 03:47:00.159 --> 03:47:04.360 asset to NATO. And you know, at this point, like 3994 03:47:05.040 --> 03:47:07.079 I don't, I don't know, you know, it's very unfortunate 3995 03:47:07.079 --> 03:47:09.360 for the Ukrainians themselves, right, because you go back you 3996 03:47:09.440 --> 03:47:12.879 mentioned that Zelenski and Putin were negotiating at the like 3997 03:47:13.079 --> 03:47:15.479 in the opening months of the war, uh and that 3998 03:47:15.600 --> 03:47:19.120 they had a verbal agreement, like a tentative verbal agreement 3999 03:47:19.559 --> 03:47:21.760 that was gonna it was gonna bring it to a halt, 4000 03:47:22.280 --> 03:47:24.799 and that Boris Johnson flew over there, it's all infamous 4001 03:47:24.879 --> 03:47:26.840 now and told them, you know, oh no you're not. 4002 03:47:27.879 --> 03:47:30.040 And you think about that. I mean, it's really that's 4003 03:47:30.120 --> 03:47:32.719 really evil. I mean, this is because this is a 4004 03:47:32.760 --> 03:47:36.680 country that you know, Ukraine, like we had the power 4005 03:47:36.680 --> 03:47:39.959 to tell them, like, you end this war and we're 4006 03:47:40.000 --> 03:47:42.799 just gonna leave you hanging, and you can you know, 4007 03:47:43.000 --> 03:47:46.600 you're you're blown up cities and you know, you're destroyed 4008 03:47:46.639 --> 03:47:48.639 economy and all that. You guys can just have fun 4009 03:47:48.719 --> 03:47:52.040 with that because we're not helping even though you got 4010 03:47:52.040 --> 03:47:55.840 into this whole thing largely because of you know, policies 4011 03:47:55.879 --> 03:47:58.200 we were using you as a proxy for we could 4012 03:47:58.239 --> 03:48:00.000 just abandon them and really put the hurt on them. 4013 03:48:00.079 --> 03:48:04.200 We essentially blackmailed them into continuing to throw their young 4014 03:48:04.280 --> 03:48:07.360 men into this, into this meek grinder, and you know, 4015 03:48:07.399 --> 03:48:14.200 it's really awful. But yeah, I think that at this point, unfortunately, 4016 03:48:15.840 --> 03:48:18.200 you know, the Russians probably feel like they have to 4017 03:48:18.239 --> 03:48:20.559 fight this thing to the end, which is not what 4018 03:48:20.559 --> 03:48:24.000 Putin wanted to do. I think that's clear. And I'm 4019 03:48:24.040 --> 03:48:27.959 not like, look man like. Putin is not like some 4020 03:48:29.120 --> 03:48:32.639 fuzzy friendly fella, you know. I mean, he's a he's 4021 03:48:32.639 --> 03:48:37.440 a hardcore, ruthless dude, and nobody but a hardcore ruthless 4022 03:48:37.520 --> 03:48:40.200 dude was going to pull Russia out of the condition 4023 03:48:40.280 --> 03:48:43.680 it was in in the nineties, when you know, the 4024 03:48:43.719 --> 03:48:47.360 government is controlled by the guys who own the entire economy, 4025 03:48:47.559 --> 03:48:50.920 They control regions of the country with their own private armies. 4026 03:48:51.440 --> 03:48:55.520 And he managed to you know, re establish the prerogative 4027 03:48:55.559 --> 03:48:58.799 of the Russian state and put that society back together 4028 03:48:59.040 --> 03:49:01.719 and clip the wings of all those oligarchs without a 4029 03:49:01.760 --> 03:49:05.479 civil war. I mean, it's amazing, It really is amazing 4030 03:49:05.520 --> 03:49:09.879 that that happened. And you know, some guy who was 4031 03:49:10.120 --> 03:49:12.719 you know, Bernie Sanders was not going to be able 4032 03:49:12.719 --> 03:49:14.760 to do something like that. He's a he's a hard 4033 03:49:14.799 --> 03:49:17.879 man who came up in a very very hard time 4034 03:49:20.040 --> 03:49:24.159 and so but you know, yeah, I think that, But yeah, 4035 03:49:24.159 --> 03:49:27.000 I think that's where we're at. I think that Russia 4036 03:49:27.079 --> 03:49:30.840 is finally kind of you know, reached a point of 4037 03:49:30.879 --> 03:49:34.600 exasperation where it's affected you know, over the long term, 4038 03:49:35.399 --> 03:49:38.159 I think that they have accepted that, you know, we're 4039 03:49:38.200 --> 03:49:41.719 never really going to fully accept them and we're never 4040 03:49:41.760 --> 03:49:44.120 going to let them in. And so that's why you know, 4041 03:49:44.159 --> 03:49:49.040 they've solidified their relationships with China and Iran and India. 4042 03:49:49.200 --> 03:49:52.159 You know, India didn't abandon Russia and a lot, you know, 4043 03:49:52.200 --> 03:49:53.799 a lot of the countries around the world. I mean, 4044 03:49:53.799 --> 03:49:56.719 that's what you want to talk about, like the failures 4045 03:49:56.760 --> 03:50:01.159 of the New end policy. I mean, the Russian military 4046 03:50:01.280 --> 03:50:05.079 is way stronger now than it was beforehand. The Russian 4047 03:50:05.079 --> 03:50:09.799 military has a ton of experience fighting NATO tactics and 4048 03:50:09.879 --> 03:50:14.520 NATO weapons systems that it didn't have before. It's Russia 4049 03:50:14.559 --> 03:50:18.920 has had a long and brutal war to advance their 4050 03:50:19.040 --> 03:50:23.680 understanding of drone tactics on the battlefield. You know, probably 4051 03:50:24.079 --> 03:50:28.040 a decade or two worth of like military advancement in 4052 03:50:28.079 --> 03:50:31.000 that space has probably been compressed into like two years. 4053 03:50:31.040 --> 03:50:32.399 And you know, they've had to learn a lot of 4054 03:50:32.399 --> 03:50:35.200 that the hard way, but they've learned it now. And 4055 03:50:35.239 --> 03:50:36.920 if you look at the United States, like what we 4056 03:50:37.040 --> 03:50:42.959 gained from this, you know what, like you know, our 4057 03:50:43.000 --> 03:50:46.840 other rivals around the world. You know, China Indian just 4058 03:50:46.959 --> 03:50:49.079 not not rivals, but the other powers around the world 4059 03:50:49.440 --> 03:50:52.040 have seen that there are limits to what we can 4060 03:50:52.079 --> 03:50:56.120 actually do, which you know, maybe they believe that before, 4061 03:50:56.159 --> 03:51:00.120 but they weren't sure. You know, they saw Iraq or 4062 03:51:00.639 --> 03:51:03.239 or Libya or something and they say, okay, they you know, 4063 03:51:03.239 --> 03:51:05.760 Americans weren't able to achieve their goal or whatever, but 4064 03:51:05.760 --> 03:51:08.200 they can sure as hell cause a hell of a 4065 03:51:08.239 --> 03:51:10.319 lot of problems, you know, for us that we don't want. 4066 03:51:10.840 --> 03:51:13.440 But they see that there's limitations to that is to 4067 03:51:13.680 --> 03:51:17.639 you know, what we can actually do. A lot of 4068 03:51:17.639 --> 03:51:21.239 countries that were you know that we're friendly with and 4069 03:51:21.319 --> 03:51:25.280 we're still friendly with, you know, India, Brazil, uh, Mexico, 4070 03:51:25.520 --> 03:51:28.600 a lot of these countries. We told them, you know, 4071 03:51:29.200 --> 03:51:32.000 you have to, uh we we need you to be 4072 03:51:32.079 --> 03:51:35.120 with us on this. Cut Russia off, you know, uh 4073 03:51:35.319 --> 03:51:38.040 follow these sanctions. And most of those countries said no, 4074 03:51:38.879 --> 03:51:42.000 and you know, outside of outside of NATO said no. 4075 03:51:42.319 --> 03:51:44.440 And there were no consequences for that, you know, we 4076 03:51:44.440 --> 03:51:47.399 we weren't able to impose any consequences on them. And 4077 03:51:47.479 --> 03:51:54.040 the fact that you know, the these financial institutions that 4078 03:51:54.079 --> 03:51:57.479 the United States has really used as as instruments of 4079 03:51:57.600 --> 03:52:00.639 global control for you know, since in the post war period, 4080 03:52:00.719 --> 03:52:03.040 like the like the IMF and all all these others, 4081 03:52:03.079 --> 03:52:06.760 the Swift system and so forth. You know, these are 4082 03:52:06.799 --> 03:52:10.239 things that before countries had to worry like what actually 4083 03:52:10.280 --> 03:52:12.440 will happen if they cut us off the swift system? 4084 03:52:12.520 --> 03:52:14.559 Like that could be armageddon, Like that could be all. 4085 03:52:15.680 --> 03:52:19.440 But now everybody's seen it that actually, you know, you 4086 03:52:19.479 --> 03:52:22.479 can get by. You can get by just fine, and 4087 03:52:23.239 --> 03:52:26.000 you know, we're in a much weaker position now. We 4088 03:52:27.440 --> 03:52:29.639 Europe is in a much weaker position. Although you know, 4089 03:52:29.760 --> 03:52:34.360 I've heard people hypothesize that maybe that was, you know, 4090 03:52:34.479 --> 03:52:36.680 kind of part of the goal of this whole thing 4091 03:52:36.840 --> 03:52:41.520 was to you know, was to make sure that you know, 4092 03:52:41.559 --> 03:52:44.440 Europe didn't I mean, if you go like everybody knows 4093 03:52:44.479 --> 03:52:49.000 that Russia asked Yeltsin and Putin one time, asked about 4094 03:52:49.040 --> 03:52:51.680 Russia joining NATO because that was one of their solutions. 4095 03:52:51.719 --> 03:52:54.360 They were like, in fact, Yeltsin said, look, why don't 4096 03:52:54.399 --> 03:52:56.639 we This is when we were talking about the first 4097 03:52:56.639 --> 03:52:58.760 tranch of expansion in the mid nineties, and he was like, 4098 03:52:58.760 --> 03:53:01.280 I'll tell you what, why don't we join NATO first? 4099 03:53:02.559 --> 03:53:04.600 And then we'll bring in all the countries between US, 4100 03:53:04.639 --> 03:53:06.719 and we won't have anything to worry about because we're 4101 03:53:06.799 --> 03:53:08.920 part of the program. And of course we said no, 4102 03:53:09.440 --> 03:53:11.360 you know, we were. That was never on the table 4103 03:53:11.479 --> 03:53:16.600 because ah, you know, NATO is it's just the dealing. 4104 03:53:17.000 --> 03:53:20.399 It's it's it's the you know, it's it's the instrument 4105 03:53:20.440 --> 03:53:23.639 of American control over Europe. That's what it is. We're 4106 03:53:23.639 --> 03:53:26.600 not going to you know, share the share the room 4107 03:53:26.760 --> 03:53:30.840 with another large power that we can't control and has 4108 03:53:30.920 --> 03:53:33.799 ideas of their own. But then also it was you know, 4109 03:53:34.079 --> 03:53:39.479 if Russia's our friend, then Europe might start looking around 4110 03:53:39.559 --> 03:53:42.719 and say, well, wait, okay, what do we need you know, 4111 03:53:43.040 --> 03:53:45.719 an American military base in Germany for If Russia is 4112 03:53:45.719 --> 03:53:48.000 our friend, what do we need to continue to like 4113 03:53:48.639 --> 03:53:51.520 take dictations from Washington, d C. On our foreign policy? 4114 03:53:51.840 --> 03:53:54.639 If the only country that's even feasibly a threat to 4115 03:53:54.719 --> 03:53:57.319 US is now not just not a threat, but an 4116 03:53:57.360 --> 03:54:03.959 ally and you know, so uh, it's uh, it's dark 4117 03:54:04.000 --> 03:54:06.399 and crazy to think that you know that that that 4118 03:54:07.120 --> 03:54:10.559 planners might have been thinking that way. But at the 4119 03:54:10.559 --> 03:54:12.440 same time, it would be in keeping with you know 4120 03:54:12.520 --> 03:54:16.840 a lot of their behavior where you use controlled chaos, 4121 03:54:17.399 --> 03:54:20.040 you know, a lot of times, chaos is the goal. 4122 03:54:20.760 --> 03:54:24.120 You know, if you look at like this is something 4123 03:54:24.159 --> 03:54:26.680 Putin talks about all the time, and most Americans are 4124 03:54:26.719 --> 03:54:30.120 just like, huh, what's he talking about? But uh after 4125 03:54:30.600 --> 03:54:34.319 during as well, but uh then even after the second 4126 03:54:34.319 --> 03:54:38.159 War with Chechnya it was over, we were over there 4127 03:54:38.280 --> 03:54:42.479 like funding training you know, these jihadists who were there. 4128 03:54:42.479 --> 03:54:44.680 This is after the war's over, Like they're not gonna 4129 03:54:44.840 --> 03:54:47.280 retake you know, Gros near anything like that's all over. 4130 03:54:47.799 --> 03:54:51.399 But what we wanted was just to keep enough chaos 4131 03:54:51.440 --> 03:54:54.600 going in that region so that you know, a pipeline 4132 03:54:54.639 --> 03:54:57.200 couldn't get built down to the Black Sea that Russia 4133 03:54:57.280 --> 03:54:58.680 was trying to do for years, and a lot of 4134 03:54:58.680 --> 03:55:01.680 these other things you couldn't develop, you know, the region 4135 03:55:01.719 --> 03:55:05.920 strategically because there's just too much chaos popping off. And 4136 03:55:05.959 --> 03:55:08.520 then by the way, and I and I uh, you 4137 03:55:08.520 --> 03:55:10.799 know some of this is public knowledge, but you know, 4138 03:55:11.319 --> 03:55:14.799 I have like confirmation from a marine who was a 4139 03:55:14.840 --> 03:55:18.680 part of the training operation working out at Istanbul when 4140 03:55:18.719 --> 03:55:24.760 Marsak was was training these jihadis and arming them. One 4141 03:55:24.799 --> 03:55:27.399 of them, one of our main guys was there were 4142 03:55:27.440 --> 03:55:29.799 four main warlords that we were like really working with 4143 03:55:29.840 --> 03:55:32.840 on their own militias, and one of them his group, 4144 03:55:33.799 --> 03:55:36.959 you know, and as far as I know, uh, you know, 4145 03:55:37.000 --> 03:55:40.079 we were not working directly with them anymore at this point, 4146 03:55:40.840 --> 03:55:42.479 but it was his group that went and did the 4147 03:55:42.520 --> 03:55:48.440 Beslan school attack in Russia. And so I mean, you know, 4148 03:55:49.319 --> 03:55:51.319 you just again you have to try to put yourself 4149 03:55:51.319 --> 03:55:55.040 in the in the position of the Russians and you 4150 03:55:55.079 --> 03:55:58.000 see something like that, you know, and think of how 4151 03:55:58.040 --> 03:56:04.120 we would respond to it. And you know, I think 4152 03:56:04.159 --> 03:56:07.840 about like you know, you've heard like Dan Crenshaw, Lindsey Graham. 4153 03:56:08.639 --> 03:56:12.319 You guys just total maniacs. You know, they go on Twitter, 4154 03:56:12.479 --> 03:56:15.319 they go in public. Dan Crenshaw actually said this is 4155 03:56:15.360 --> 03:56:17.840 almost word for word. I think he said, you know, 4156 03:56:17.920 --> 03:56:20.639 I don't understand why people have a problem with what 4157 03:56:20.719 --> 03:56:23.799 we're doing over in Ukraine. A bunch of Russians are 4158 03:56:23.879 --> 03:56:27.799 dying and it's not costing us anything but money. Like 4159 03:56:27.879 --> 03:56:30.520 that's literally what he said. And so imagine like we're 4160 03:56:30.520 --> 03:56:36.040 in Iraq and the Russians are just training, arming and 4161 03:56:36.120 --> 03:56:39.000 not even on the sly They're just like basically leading 4162 03:56:39.079 --> 03:56:42.319 the insurgency against US, and Russian politicians are out there 4163 03:56:42.319 --> 03:56:45.159 in public saying, oh, yeah, we don't. Our only goal 4164 03:56:45.239 --> 03:56:47.120 is to kill Americans, Like we just want to see 4165 03:56:47.120 --> 03:56:50.200 more dead Americans. Like other than that, like if that happens, 4166 03:56:50.239 --> 03:56:52.959 we're you know, we're happy. Dead Americans is cool in 4167 03:56:53.000 --> 03:56:55.799 our book. That's enough for us. You think these people 4168 03:56:55.840 --> 03:57:00.239 are fucking maniacs, you know, And and I think that's 4169 03:57:00.280 --> 03:57:03.520 where the Russians are with us at that at this point. 4170 03:57:03.639 --> 03:57:07.399 And it's unfortunate because you know, I love Russia. I 4171 03:57:07.440 --> 03:57:10.280 mean I you know, I started reading Russian literature when 4172 03:57:10.280 --> 03:57:13.120 I was a teenager, and you know, I've always loved it. 4173 03:57:13.159 --> 03:57:16.479 I love the culture, and I find it to be 4174 03:57:16.760 --> 03:57:20.639 a real tragedy that that our relationship to that country 4175 03:57:20.639 --> 03:57:23.680 has been dragged down by a few, you know, really 4176 03:57:23.719 --> 03:57:25.280 malicious interested parties. 4177 03:57:26.639 --> 03:57:30.840 Well, let's finish on that. I mentioned before we started 4178 03:57:30.879 --> 03:57:36.040 recording that we talked about managery early interested parties that 4179 03:57:36.040 --> 03:57:39.840 they can get they can they can start wars, they 4180 03:57:39.840 --> 03:57:43.319 can foament wars, they can fund wars that that even 4181 03:57:43.360 --> 03:57:47.399 Americans don't have to fight in. And Colonel McGregor, Douglas 4182 03:57:47.479 --> 03:57:51.600 McGregor has been running around basically saying that he believes 4183 03:57:51.639 --> 03:57:55.559 that there's an the people who are doing this in 4184 03:57:55.600 --> 03:57:58.120 the United States government are doing it out of an 4185 03:57:58.159 --> 03:58:06.000 ethnic and ethnic vendetta. Basically that Victoria Nowlan her husband 4186 03:58:06.040 --> 03:58:10.520 Robert Kagan Kagan is Russian for kne that it's a 4187 03:58:10.600 --> 03:58:16.680 Jewish animosity for the pale of settlement, stettles, the pogroms. 4188 03:58:18.000 --> 03:58:21.200 How do you answer? What do you think of McGregor 4189 03:58:21.319 --> 03:58:22.680 saying that, what's your opinion? 4190 03:58:23.399 --> 03:58:28.120 I think that there's there's definitely something to it, But 4191 03:58:28.159 --> 03:58:30.959 it's not just the Jews, you know, like you you 4192 03:58:31.040 --> 03:58:33.879 listen to the polls, like I think the polls, they're 4193 03:58:33.959 --> 03:58:35.840 like if we go to nuclear war, we go to 4194 03:58:35.920 --> 03:58:39.120 nuclear war. Like as long as Moscow gets flat and 4195 03:58:39.120 --> 03:58:40.680 as part of that deal, I'm cool for like the 4196 03:58:41.159 --> 03:58:42.159 just absolute manium. 4197 03:58:42.319 --> 03:58:45.440 And mind you and mind you, there are four thousand 4198 03:58:45.559 --> 03:58:49.280 Jews in Poland. Yeah, look I looked that up recently 4199 03:58:49.319 --> 03:58:54.319 when that whole when that one Polish politician extinguished a minora, 4200 03:58:54.840 --> 03:58:57.479 I look to see what the Jewish population of Poland was, 4201 03:58:57.520 --> 03:58:59.639 and it's like four thousand right now. 4202 03:58:59.719 --> 03:59:03.159 So yeah, yeah, and I mean look like there's this, 4203 03:59:03.360 --> 03:59:06.159 there's this, there's this good joke. See if I can 4204 03:59:06.200 --> 03:59:09.799 get it right, where this this Polish peasant is out 4205 03:59:09.840 --> 03:59:12.479 in his field and he finds a magic lamp, the 4206 03:59:12.559 --> 03:59:15.239 Genie lamp, and so he gives it a rub. He's 4207 03:59:15.239 --> 03:59:17.120 gonna have his wishes. The genie pops out and says, 4208 03:59:17.120 --> 03:59:20.000 you get three wishes. What's your first wish? And he says, 4209 03:59:20.040 --> 03:59:25.399 I want China to invade Poland. He says, huh do 4210 03:59:25.440 --> 03:59:26.920 you want to repeat that? And he tells him. He's 4211 03:59:26.920 --> 03:59:31.479 like whatever, it was fine, and so you know, a 4212 03:59:31.479 --> 03:59:34.920 few hours later, or however long later, see smoke on 4213 03:59:34.959 --> 03:59:37.559 the horizon and tanks start rolling in and the air 4214 03:59:37.600 --> 03:59:40.520 force rolls in. The Chinese military comes in, just flattens Poland, 4215 03:59:40.680 --> 03:59:44.000 just wipes out the guy's village, everywhere else destroyed. And 4216 03:59:44.040 --> 03:59:47.680 then they go home and he says, all right, so 4217 03:59:47.719 --> 03:59:50.040 I want my second wish, and he's like, what do 4218 03:59:50.040 --> 03:59:52.280 you want this time? You want me to rebuild the country. 4219 03:59:52.559 --> 03:59:55.120 What is it you want? He said, I want China 4220 03:59:55.120 --> 03:59:59.639 to invade Poland again, and he's like okay, And so 4221 03:59:59.719 --> 04:00:02.680 the whole who same thing happens again, and third wish 4222 04:00:02.760 --> 04:00:05.559 he wants China to invade Poland again, and so it 4223 04:00:05.600 --> 04:00:08.159 happens again. He says, I got to ask you, like, 4224 04:00:08.280 --> 04:00:10.680 why is it that you want. Don't you love your 4225 04:00:10.719 --> 04:00:13.159 country like or do you really hate your country? Why 4226 04:00:13.159 --> 04:00:15.159 do you want want China to come destroy it? 4227 04:00:15.399 --> 04:00:15.600 Said? 4228 04:00:15.600 --> 04:00:18.319 Are you kidding? I love my country. I love Poland 4229 04:00:18.319 --> 04:00:21.399 more than anything. But to come to Poland three times, 4230 04:00:21.520 --> 04:00:25.799 China's got to go through Russia six times. And you know, 4231 04:00:26.200 --> 04:00:31.479 on one level, like I think that, And you know, 4232 04:00:31.639 --> 04:00:35.120 I've got friends in the Baltics especially, but in Poland 4233 04:00:35.120 --> 04:00:37.719 as well, and they would all fight me on this, 4234 04:00:38.680 --> 04:00:42.159 but I think there's a certain level, a certain a 4235 04:00:42.159 --> 04:00:46.479 certain way in which you know, those countries were part 4236 04:00:46.520 --> 04:00:49.520 of the Soviet Union, some more willingly than others. You know, 4237 04:00:49.639 --> 04:00:51.840 Poland honestly is one of the one of the ones 4238 04:00:51.879 --> 04:00:54.920 that was part of the Soviet Union much more unwillingly. 4239 04:00:54.959 --> 04:00:59.440 But you know, the Soviet Union was a was a 4240 04:00:59.520 --> 04:01:03.719 multi f multinational project, especially early on before Stalin kind 4241 04:01:03.760 --> 04:01:06.760 of reconverted it into a sort of a Russian empire. 4242 04:01:06.879 --> 04:01:09.920 But you know, this is a multi ethnic, multinational project 4243 04:01:10.479 --> 04:01:14.479 that had participation, you know, from strong communist parties like 4244 04:01:14.520 --> 04:01:17.559 across Eastern Europe who were who were doing this. You know, 4245 04:01:17.799 --> 04:01:21.319 it was not it was not a bunch of Russians 4246 04:01:21.440 --> 04:01:27.479 who were going into you know, country A and you know, 4247 04:01:27.680 --> 04:01:30.120 attacking the ethnic people over here. It was their own 4248 04:01:30.120 --> 04:01:32.840 communist parties who were leading those efforts, you know, and 4249 04:01:32.959 --> 04:01:36.200 taking leadership from Moscow obviously, and so this went on 4250 04:01:36.239 --> 04:01:38.440 for a long time, and I think like, uh, you know, 4251 04:01:38.479 --> 04:01:41.959 there's some there's something of once the Soviet Union fell, 4252 04:01:42.000 --> 04:01:45.120 and these countries are sort of reckoning with their own past, 4253 04:01:45.799 --> 04:01:49.319 their own the fact that you know, you're a country 4254 04:01:49.319 --> 04:01:51.360 that that was part of the Soviet Union. Now you're not, 4255 04:01:51.840 --> 04:01:54.680 but you're still living in the you know, next door 4256 04:01:54.760 --> 04:01:56.639 to a guy who was part of the Secret Police. 4257 04:01:56.840 --> 04:02:00.000 You're living next door to a you know, a communis 4258 04:02:00.360 --> 04:02:03.280 apparatchic over here is something and you have to figure 4259 04:02:03.319 --> 04:02:05.680 out how are we gonna knit this society back together? 4260 04:02:05.799 --> 04:02:07.959 Like how are we gonna And I think one of 4261 04:02:07.959 --> 04:02:10.079 the ways that they've done it is they just think, now, 4262 04:02:10.159 --> 04:02:14.200 like the Soviet Union was Russia, Russia is the Soviet Union. 4263 04:02:14.680 --> 04:02:19.520 US we're pure victims of Russian imperialism and that was 4264 04:02:19.559 --> 04:02:22.159 our role in the Soviet Union, just as victims, and 4265 04:02:22.200 --> 04:02:23.920 so even our people who are a part of that 4266 04:02:24.040 --> 04:02:26.440 or whatever, like you know, we really had no choice, 4267 04:02:26.440 --> 04:02:28.040 and we can all kind of come together, and so 4268 04:02:28.399 --> 04:02:32.159 I think it's been like a mechanism for pulling, you know, 4269 04:02:32.200 --> 04:02:34.639 those societies back together in a cohesive way. I don't 4270 04:02:34.639 --> 04:02:35.920 want to say it's the beginning and end of it, 4271 04:02:35.959 --> 04:02:37.159 but I think there's something to that. 4272 04:02:38.360 --> 04:02:40.559 Cool. It's all everybody where they can find your work. 4273 04:02:42.479 --> 04:02:45.360 So I've got a podcast where I do long form 4274 04:02:45.639 --> 04:02:50.200 history stuff. It's called Martyr Made, and you can find 4275 04:02:50.239 --> 04:02:54.040 that on iTunes or Spotify or whatever. I've got another 4276 04:02:54.079 --> 04:02:57.719 podcast with my buddy Jocko Willink called The Unraveling where 4277 04:02:57.719 --> 04:02:59.959 we talk about sort of more recent history and contemp 4278 04:03:00.040 --> 04:03:04.639 prairiy events. And then I've got a substack Martyrmade dot 4279 04:03:04.680 --> 04:03:07.959 substack dot com where I kind of go into a 4280 04:03:07.959 --> 04:03:10.239 lot of these things even more in depth. 4281 04:03:11.319 --> 04:03:13.360 Subscribe to all of them. I do. 4282 04:03:14.040 --> 04:03:16.520 Thank you, Daryl, Thanks brother. Always a good time. 4283 04:03:18.840 --> 04:03:21.959 I want to welcome everyone to Part one, the official 4284 04:03:22.360 --> 04:03:27.520 Part one, first part of my reading of Kudeta and 4285 04:03:27.600 --> 04:03:31.200 I have a special guest here, Daryl Cooper, Hey doing. 4286 04:03:31.159 --> 04:03:34.040 Daryrol doing great man. It's always good to be on. 4287 04:03:34.719 --> 04:03:39.440 Yeah, yeah, so tell me. I asked John when I 4288 04:03:39.440 --> 04:03:43.799 had him on before, when did when did kuditab come 4289 04:03:43.840 --> 04:03:44.639 on to your radar. 4290 04:03:46.319 --> 04:03:48.959 I think I read this book maybe, gosh, it must 4291 04:03:48.959 --> 04:03:53.719 have been must have been fifteen years ago now, yeah, 4292 04:03:53.760 --> 04:03:57.399 around two thousand and nine, twenty ten, and I was 4293 04:03:57.479 --> 04:03:59.040 reading a lot of that kind of stuff, you know, 4294 04:03:59.079 --> 04:04:02.559 I was reading a lot of Peter Dale Scott and 4295 04:04:02.600 --> 04:04:04.760 you know, reading a lot about just like the Banana War, 4296 04:04:04.920 --> 04:04:07.200 just all the twentieth century kind of kind of Cold 4297 04:04:07.239 --> 04:04:10.559 war stuff. And I read through it back then. But 4298 04:04:10.600 --> 04:04:13.479 I'll tell you it's one of those books that I 4299 04:04:13.479 --> 04:04:15.920 think the last fifteen years that have passed since that 4300 04:04:16.079 --> 04:04:20.120 time have really given the book a new flavor in 4301 04:04:20.159 --> 04:04:22.319 a way, because you know, I read it back then 4302 04:04:22.360 --> 04:04:25.920 and I enjoyed it. I've been rereading it because we're 4303 04:04:25.959 --> 04:04:28.520 going to talk about it, and I've been getting a 4304 04:04:28.559 --> 04:04:30.799 lot more out of it. There's a lot more to 4305 04:04:30.920 --> 04:04:32.639 draw on, for sure, So I'm looking forward to. 4306 04:04:34.440 --> 04:04:37.600 Cool. So what we're going to do is the preface 4307 04:04:37.639 --> 04:04:40.440 to the first edition is one page. I'll read it 4308 04:04:41.200 --> 04:04:43.399 and then skip to the first chapter. If there's anything 4309 04:04:43.440 --> 04:04:45.520 you want to comment in on a comment on here 4310 04:04:45.559 --> 04:04:48.079 on the preface, just let me know. Right, let's go. 4311 04:04:49.920 --> 04:04:53.040 This is a handbook. It is therefore not concerned with 4312 04:04:53.079 --> 04:04:56.200 the theoretical analysis of the coupdhata, but rather with the 4313 04:04:56.239 --> 04:04:59.159 formulation of the techniques which can be employed to seize 4314 04:04:59.159 --> 04:05:03.239 power with in a state. It can be compared to 4315 04:05:03.280 --> 04:05:05.920 a cookery book in the sense that it aims at 4316 04:05:06.079 --> 04:05:10.760 enabling any lay person, equipped with enthusiasm and the right ingredients, 4317 04:05:11.120 --> 04:05:14.280 to carry out his own coup. Only a knowledge of 4318 04:05:14.319 --> 04:05:18.239 the rules is required. Two words of caution. In the 4319 04:05:18.239 --> 04:05:21.280 first place, in order to carry out a successful coup, 4320 04:05:21.559 --> 04:05:25.360 certain preconditions must be present, just as in cooking Bullyabase, 4321 04:05:25.840 --> 04:05:28.959 one needs to needs the right source of fish to 4322 04:05:29.040 --> 04:05:33.639 start with. Second, readers should be aware that the penalty 4323 04:05:33.680 --> 04:05:36.479 of failure is far greater than having to eat out 4324 04:05:36.520 --> 04:05:41.879 of a tin. The rewards, too, are greater. It may 4325 04:05:41.879 --> 04:05:45.600 be objected that should such a handbook be inadequate or misleading, 4326 04:05:45.879 --> 04:05:48.879 the readers will be subject to great dangers, while if 4327 04:05:48.920 --> 04:05:51.479 it is an efficient guide to the problems, it may 4328 04:05:51.600 --> 04:05:56.040 lead to upheoples and disturbances. My defense is that coups 4329 04:05:56.159 --> 04:05:58.879 are already common, and if as a result of this 4330 04:05:58.959 --> 04:06:01.719 book a number of people learn how to carry them out, 4331 04:06:02.079 --> 04:06:05.360 this is merely a step towards the democratization of the coup, 4332 04:06:06.000 --> 04:06:11.559 the fact that all persons of liberal sentiments should applaud. Finally, 4333 04:06:11.559 --> 04:06:14.719 it should be noted that the techniques here discussed are 4334 04:06:14.719 --> 04:06:18.639 politically neutral and concerned only with the objective of seizing 4335 04:06:18.959 --> 04:06:23.200 control of the state, and not at all with subsequent policies. 4336 04:06:26.079 --> 04:06:29.360 When jump into chapter one, let's do it all right? 4337 04:06:29.600 --> 04:06:33.760 Chapter one? What is a coupd'tas? I shall got a 4338 04:06:33.760 --> 04:06:36.719 couple quotes here. I shall be sorry to commence the 4339 04:06:36.799 --> 04:06:39.040 era of peace by a coup de ETAs such as 4340 04:06:39.079 --> 04:06:43.559 that I had in contemplation, Duke of Wellington, eighteen eleven. 4341 04:06:44.639 --> 04:06:48.760 No other way of salvation remained except for the army's intervention. 4342 04:06:49.159 --> 04:06:55.360 Constantine Collius, April twenty first, nineteen sixty seven, Athens, all right. 4343 04:06:55.959 --> 04:06:59.559 Starting with the text. Though the term coupdata has been 4344 04:06:59.639 --> 04:07:03.079 used for more than three centuries, the feasibility of the 4345 04:07:03.120 --> 04:07:07.239 coup derives from a comparatively recent development, the rise of 4346 04:07:07.239 --> 04:07:12.040 the modern state, with its professional bureaucracy and standing armed forces. 4347 04:07:13.280 --> 04:07:15.799 The power of the modern state largely depends on this 4348 04:07:15.920 --> 04:07:20.440 permanent machinery, which, with its archives, files, records and officials, 4349 04:07:20.799 --> 04:07:24.399 can follow intimately and if it so desires, control the 4350 04:07:24.440 --> 04:07:30.799 activities of lesser organizations and individuals. Totalitarian states merely use 4351 04:07:30.920 --> 04:07:36.760 more fully the detailed and comprehensive information available to most states. However, 4352 04:07:36.879 --> 04:07:40.680 democratic the instrument is largely the same, though it is 4353 04:07:40.799 --> 04:07:44.479 used differently. Right off the bat, when you start reading this, 4354 04:07:44.680 --> 04:07:48.920 it really seems like he's describing the managerial state, right, 4355 04:07:49.600 --> 04:07:52.719 what has existed since let's call it the late twenties 4356 04:07:52.719 --> 04:07:53.479 to early thirties. 4357 04:07:53.920 --> 04:07:56.360 You're muted, Yeah, I forgot about that. There's like a 4358 04:07:56.360 --> 04:08:00.000 Babarian aspect to it too, right, Like Max Weber describes 4359 04:08:00.280 --> 04:08:03.600 three forms of like organizational or political authority. You got 4360 04:08:03.600 --> 04:08:07.239 like the charismatic or the traditional or the legal rational, 4361 04:08:07.280 --> 04:08:11.319 and that's what he's talking about here. And you know, 4362 04:08:11.840 --> 04:08:15.079 for Lootwalk, the coup is really only possible with the 4363 04:08:15.159 --> 04:08:19.120 legal rational when you get that distinction between the political 4364 04:08:19.280 --> 04:08:21.920 authority and the state machinery where there's sort of two 4365 04:08:22.000 --> 04:08:24.879 distinct things and you can swap people out at the 4366 04:08:24.920 --> 04:08:29.760 top and they are conferred genuine power from their position, 4367 04:08:30.559 --> 04:08:34.040 you know, in a traditional authority structure, which is just 4368 04:08:34.040 --> 04:08:38.639 basically like a patronage system. Everything from you know, say 4369 04:08:38.680 --> 04:08:43.760 Saudi Arabia today to feudal systems in the past, you know, 4370 04:08:43.959 --> 04:08:47.600 these things were built on organic relationships, like that's what 4371 04:08:47.639 --> 04:08:51.040 the system of power represented was the totality of these 4372 04:08:51.159 --> 04:08:56.159 organic relationships. And a coup. You can't really pull off 4373 04:08:56.159 --> 04:08:59.239 a coup unless you're maybe you know, a brother taking 4374 04:08:59.280 --> 04:09:01.559 out the you know, the crown prints and taking his 4375 04:09:01.639 --> 04:09:03.520 place or something like that. But that's about it. And 4376 04:09:04.159 --> 04:09:08.639 same with charismatic authority, where leader, you know, leadership sort 4377 04:09:08.680 --> 04:09:12.639 of coalesces around the person of a single charismatic individual. 4378 04:09:13.719 --> 04:09:15.559 A lot of times you don't have much of an 4379 04:09:15.639 --> 04:09:19.840 organization to go with that. The organization is, you know, 4380 04:09:19.879 --> 04:09:22.920 the gathering of people around the man, and it's very 4381 04:09:22.920 --> 04:09:26.440 hard to pull off a coup in that environment. Once 4382 04:09:26.559 --> 04:09:31.479 the legal rational system gets in place, though, and especially 4383 04:09:31.520 --> 04:09:35.319 once it gains a sort of autonomy and self awareness, 4384 04:09:35.360 --> 04:09:37.920 you know, of itself as a class and as a 4385 04:09:37.920 --> 04:09:42.879 as a as a as a function, it starts to 4386 04:09:42.959 --> 04:09:45.559 learn how to defend itself and it'll start to, uh, 4387 04:09:45.840 --> 04:09:49.840 you know, fend off challenges from charismatic leaders or traditionalist 4388 04:09:50.239 --> 04:09:54.719 you know, patronage type type networks, and you know, and 4389 04:09:54.799 --> 04:09:56.920 it's only that type that, yeah, that that you can 4390 04:09:57.000 --> 04:09:57.879 run a coup against. 4391 04:09:59.040 --> 04:10:05.319 Ye right onward The growth of modern state bureaucracies has 4392 04:10:05.360 --> 04:10:08.280 two implications that are crucial for the feasibility of the coup. 4393 04:10:08.719 --> 04:10:12.239 The emergence of clear distinctions between the permanent machinery of 4394 04:10:12.280 --> 04:10:15.200 state and the political leadership, and the fact that state 4395 04:10:15.239 --> 04:10:20.120 bureaucracies have structured hierarchies with definite chains of command. The 4396 04:10:20.200 --> 04:10:23.120 distinction between the bureaucrat is an employee of the state 4397 04:10:23.520 --> 04:10:25.719 and as a personal servant of the ruler is a 4398 04:10:25.760 --> 04:10:28.440 new one, and both the British and the American systems 4399 04:10:28.440 --> 04:10:34.879 so show residual features of the earlier structure. The importance 4400 04:10:34.920 --> 04:10:37.000 of this development lies in the fact that if the 4401 04:10:37.040 --> 04:10:40.000 bureaucrats are linked to the leadership an a legal seizure 4402 04:10:40.040 --> 04:10:42.600 of power must take the form of a palace revolution, 4403 04:10:43.280 --> 04:10:46.760 which essentially concerns the manipulation of the person of the ruler. 4404 04:10:47.559 --> 04:10:49.920 That ruler may be forced to accept new policies or 4405 04:10:49.959 --> 04:10:53.200 new advisors, or may be killed or held captive. But 4406 04:10:53.319 --> 04:10:56.319 whatever happens, the palace revolution can only be conducted from 4407 04:10:56.360 --> 04:11:00.159 the inside and by insiders. An insider might be be 4408 04:11:00.200 --> 04:11:02.840 the commander of the palace guard, as in ancient Rome 4409 04:11:03.479 --> 04:11:06.600 or the Ethiopia of the nineteen sixties, and if the 4410 04:11:06.719 --> 04:11:09.680 dynastics system is preserved, the aim is to replace the 4411 04:11:09.760 --> 04:11:15.239 unwanted ruler with a more malleable descendant. The coup is 4412 04:11:15.280 --> 04:11:18.040 a much more democratic affair. It can be conducted from 4413 04:11:18.079 --> 04:11:21.040 the outside and operates in the area outside the government 4414 04:11:21.280 --> 04:11:24.600 but within the state, the area formed by the permanent 4415 04:11:24.639 --> 04:11:29.120 professional civil service, the armed forces, and the police. The 4416 04:11:29.159 --> 04:11:31.879 aim is to detach the permanent employees of the state 4417 04:11:31.920 --> 04:11:35.280 from the political leadership, and usually this cannot be done 4418 04:11:35.280 --> 04:11:39.680 if the two are linked by political, ethnic, or traditional loyalties. 4419 04:11:42.399 --> 04:11:45.319 I don't know that people saw, like when you read 4420 04:11:45.360 --> 04:11:50.639 that last paragraph, how clearly you can see what he 4421 04:11:50.719 --> 04:11:53.760 talks about with The aim is to detach to permanent employees, 4422 04:11:53.799 --> 04:11:56.799 which would we would call the deep state now, from 4423 04:11:56.840 --> 04:12:00.040 the political leadership, and usually this cannot be done. I 4424 04:12:00.040 --> 04:12:04.520 don't know that when he wrote this, it was even sure. 4425 04:12:04.719 --> 04:12:08.120 Burnham had written the manager or Revolution thirty years thirty 4426 04:12:08.120 --> 04:12:12.360 three years earlier, or thirty years earlier, But I don't 4427 04:12:12.399 --> 04:12:19.000 know that that was as widely understood as it is now. 4428 04:12:19.040 --> 04:12:24.079 The fact that we're basically run by managerialism. 4429 04:12:24.200 --> 04:12:29.399 Yeah, and it's interesting given that the people who kind 4430 04:12:29.399 --> 04:12:32.760 of put over that revolution, were quite explicit about their 4431 04:12:32.799 --> 04:12:37.600 goal in doing that, in detaching political authority and government machinery. Right, 4432 04:12:37.680 --> 04:12:40.399 if you go back to like the late eighteen hundreds, 4433 04:12:41.559 --> 04:12:46.360 most American cities, local and even state governments, which the 4434 04:12:46.399 --> 04:12:48.680 federal government was much smaller and weaker back then, so 4435 04:12:48.719 --> 04:12:51.600 that meant most of government in America, you know, it 4436 04:12:51.600 --> 04:12:56.280 was run by ethnic patronage networks that sort of emerged 4437 04:12:56.680 --> 04:12:59.680 more or less organically as a way of organizing people 4438 04:13:00.159 --> 04:13:06.000 for political activity. And the Progressive movement was a very explicit, 4439 04:13:06.040 --> 04:13:08.639 you know, the Good Government Movement, very explicit sort of 4440 04:13:08.719 --> 04:13:13.639 attack on those patronage networks. And you know, you can 4441 04:13:13.680 --> 04:13:16.920 take that all the way up to like like Colonel 4442 04:13:16.920 --> 04:13:21.000 House's book, or all the way eventually in the apotheosis 4443 04:13:21.040 --> 04:13:23.559 obviously in the New Deal Revolution when that all really 4444 04:13:23.600 --> 04:13:27.840 came together, and they're quite explicit about it. But for 4445 04:13:27.879 --> 04:13:31.000 some reason, Yeah, it's something that's that's been lost a 4446 04:13:31.000 --> 04:13:35.319 bit today. You know, when you when we were kids, 4447 04:13:35.360 --> 04:13:39.040 we watched Schoolhouse Rock. They had that little commercial, you know, 4448 04:13:39.200 --> 04:13:42.280 where there's like the piece of paper and he's like, hey, folks, 4449 04:13:42.319 --> 04:13:45.120 I'm a bill and here's how I get passed. There's 4450 04:13:45.159 --> 04:13:47.920 three branches of government and so forth, and like you know, 4451 04:13:47.959 --> 04:13:52.280 and this is how your government works, and that you know, 4452 04:13:52.399 --> 04:13:54.840 that's that's not how the government works at all, right, 4453 04:13:54.920 --> 04:13:57.280 I mean the government ninety nine percent of the government 4454 04:13:57.280 --> 04:14:00.280 and certainly all of the functional parts of the government, 4455 04:14:00.479 --> 04:14:05.760 the ones that actually take action. It's this unelected bureaucracy 4456 04:14:05.799 --> 04:14:09.799 that that that's purpose is to be completely detached from 4457 04:14:09.840 --> 04:14:13.719 political authority, which is to say, you know, quote, you know, 4458 04:14:13.799 --> 04:14:16.680 in an ideal world, or if our system worked the 4459 04:14:16.680 --> 04:14:18.360 way it was supposed to, which is to say that 4460 04:14:18.760 --> 04:14:23.840 it's detached from accountability from from the you know, the population. 4461 04:14:25.479 --> 04:14:29.840 All right onward. In the last dynasty of Imperial China, 4462 04:14:30.040 --> 04:14:32.760 as in present day African states, it was primarily an 4463 04:14:32.760 --> 04:14:35.719 ethnic bond that secured the loyalty of the state apparatus. 4464 04:14:36.000 --> 04:14:39.920 The Manchu dynasty was careful to follow native Chinese customs, 4465 04:14:40.200 --> 04:14:42.760 and it employed Han Chinese in the civil service at 4466 04:14:42.760 --> 04:14:49.520 all levels, but the crucial posts in the high magistracy, magistracy, 4467 04:14:50.120 --> 04:14:52.639 and the army were filled by the descendants of the 4468 04:14:53.360 --> 04:14:57.559 Jurchens who had entered China with their chiefs the founders 4469 04:14:57.559 --> 04:15:01.840 of the dynasty. Similarly, after and rulers typically appoint members 4470 04:15:01.920 --> 04:15:04.120 of their own tribe to the key posts in the 4471 04:15:04.239 --> 04:15:09.600 armed forces, police and security services. When a party machine 4472 04:15:09.639 --> 04:15:12.799 controls civil service appointments, either as part of a more 4473 04:15:12.879 --> 04:15:16.360 general totalitarian control or because of a very long period 4474 04:15:16.360 --> 04:15:19.799 in office, as in postwar Italy till the late nineteen eighties, 4475 04:15:20.319 --> 04:15:24.040 political associates are appointed to the senior levels of the bureaucracy, 4476 04:15:24.479 --> 04:15:26.959 partly in order to protect the regime and partly to 4477 04:15:27.079 --> 04:15:31.879 ensure the sympathetic execution of policies. In the communist countries 4478 04:15:31.920 --> 04:15:35.639 of yesteryear, all senior jobs were of course held by 4479 04:15:35.680 --> 04:15:42.399 party appoatrics. Saudi Arabia provides an instance of traditional bonds. 4480 04:15:42.879 --> 04:15:45.200 In this case, the lack of modern know how on 4481 04:15:45.280 --> 04:15:47.799 the part of the traditional tribal affiliates of the royal 4482 04:15:47.840 --> 04:15:51.399 house has meant that what could not be done individually 4483 04:15:51.520 --> 04:15:55.399 has been done organizationally. The modern army, manned by some 4484 04:15:55.440 --> 04:15:59.159 one hundred thousand unreliable city dwellers, is outnumbered by one 4485 04:15:59.200 --> 04:16:01.760 hundred and twenty five thousand or so enrolled in the 4486 04:16:01.760 --> 04:16:05.079 White Army of the Bedouin, or at least nominally be 4487 04:16:05.959 --> 04:16:09.799 followers of the Saudis officially known as the Haras al 4488 04:16:09.879 --> 04:16:14.040 Watshani Guard of the Homeland or National Guard, the so 4489 04:16:14.120 --> 04:16:16.879 called the White Army. It includes a tribal militia of 4490 04:16:16.920 --> 04:16:22.559 some twenty five thousand official official officially designated the Iman 4491 04:16:23.079 --> 04:16:29.239 Imam Muhammad bin Saud Mechanized Brigade based in the capital 4492 04:16:29.280 --> 04:16:33.319 of Riad and plainly ment as an anti coup force. 4493 04:16:34.079 --> 04:16:35.040 Have you been to Saudi? 4494 04:16:37.319 --> 04:16:39.680 I have been to Riyad once and other than that, 4495 04:16:39.799 --> 04:16:43.200 I got stuck on a tarmac and a helicopter in 4496 04:16:43.200 --> 04:16:45.680 one hundred and twenty degree heat for about eight hours 4497 04:16:45.680 --> 04:16:46.239 one time. 4498 04:16:49.600 --> 04:16:53.639 I keep going. Such ethnic or traditional bonds between the 4499 04:16:53.639 --> 04:16:56.200 political leadership and the heads of the bureaucracy and the 4500 04:16:56.319 --> 04:16:59.399 armed forces are not typical of the modern state, while 4501 04:16:59.440 --> 04:17:03.159 looser or ethnic affiliations will tend to embrace groups large 4502 04:17:03.280 --> 04:17:06.479 enough to be successfully infiltrated by the planners of the 4503 04:17:06.520 --> 04:17:10.799 coup as a direct consequence of its sheer size. In 4504 04:17:10.920 --> 04:17:14.559 order to achieve even a minimum of efficiency, the state 4505 04:17:14.600 --> 04:17:17.440 bureaucracy has to divide its work into clear cut areas 4506 04:17:17.440 --> 04:17:22.600 of competence, which are assigned to different departments. Within each department, 4507 04:17:22.920 --> 04:17:25.520 there must be an accepted chain of command and standard 4508 04:17:25.520 --> 04:17:29.000 procedures have to be followed. Thus, a given piece of 4509 04:17:29.000 --> 04:17:31.639 information or a given order is followed up in a 4510 04:17:31.680 --> 04:17:35.159 stereotyped manner, and if the order comes from the appropriate 4511 04:17:35.280 --> 04:17:40.079 source at the appropriate level, it is carried out. In 4512 04:17:40.159 --> 04:17:43.319 the more critical parts of the state apparatus, the armed forces, 4513 04:17:43.479 --> 04:17:47.079 the police, and the security services, all these characteristics are 4514 04:17:47.079 --> 04:17:50.559 intensified with an even greater degree of discipline and rigidity. 4515 04:17:51.399 --> 04:17:55.239 The apparatus of this state is, therefore, to some extent, 4516 04:17:55.319 --> 04:17:58.840 a machine that will normally behave in a fairly predictable 4517 04:17:58.879 --> 04:18:05.719 and automatic miss manner. What happens if it stops operating 4518 04:18:05.719 --> 04:18:07.680 in a predictable and automatic manner? 4519 04:18:08.959 --> 04:18:11.559 Well, I mean, I think what Luboks saying here is that, 4520 04:18:11.639 --> 04:18:15.239 you know, he's pointing out that I think he's probably 4521 04:18:15.239 --> 04:18:18.920 setting up to defend his thesis that you can actually speak, 4522 04:18:19.319 --> 04:18:22.840 for lack of a better word, like scientifically about these processes. 4523 04:18:23.479 --> 04:18:26.520 You know that this is something that that that these 4524 04:18:26.559 --> 04:18:29.639 are systems that have certain rules and laws and guidelines 4525 04:18:29.680 --> 04:18:32.360 that they run by, and so you can actually speak 4526 04:18:32.360 --> 04:18:35.399 about them in general terms. But what happens if they 4527 04:18:35.440 --> 04:18:39.239 start if they stop reacting in a predictable manner? I mean, 4528 04:18:39.280 --> 04:18:42.440 at that point you're very very very close to the edge. 4529 04:18:42.719 --> 04:18:47.760 You know, the whole uh, the whole purpose of that. 4530 04:18:47.840 --> 04:18:51.440 I mean, if you think about the base level of 4531 04:18:52.360 --> 04:18:54.760 all government, right, and maybe this has something to do 4532 04:18:54.840 --> 04:19:02.440 with Weber's traditional you know, patrimony based system of authority, 4533 04:19:02.479 --> 04:19:05.959 but at the bottom of it is whoever can provide 4534 04:19:06.600 --> 04:19:11.159 physical security and whoever can distribute resources that people need 4535 04:19:11.200 --> 04:19:14.200 to live or secure and distribute those resources, then that's 4536 04:19:14.239 --> 04:19:17.680 gonna that's the government in time. Like it might not 4537 04:19:17.719 --> 04:19:20.079 be today, but eventually, if the government that you think 4538 04:19:20.120 --> 04:19:23.239 you have can't do those things, then that's not gonna 4539 04:19:23.239 --> 04:19:24.879 be the government for long. You know. You see this 4540 04:19:25.040 --> 04:19:28.280 with like terrorist organ I mean we had to come 4541 04:19:28.319 --> 04:19:30.719 to terms with this, Like in Iraq for example, right 4542 04:19:30.760 --> 04:19:34.319 when we went into Iraq, people really did go in 4543 04:19:34.360 --> 04:19:38.040 with all of these for all the cynicism of the 4544 04:19:38.079 --> 04:19:41.520 neo cons and everything, like these people when they you know, 4545 04:19:41.559 --> 04:19:45.440 they really had sort of pioped themselves into believing that 4546 04:19:46.360 --> 04:19:49.840 the people of the world are just Americans in embryo. 4547 04:19:49.920 --> 04:19:52.159 And as soon as they're given the opportunity we get 4548 04:19:52.239 --> 04:19:54.479 rid of at Am Hussein or whoever, then they're gonna 4549 04:19:54.520 --> 04:19:57.040 throw roses at our feet and be happy to become 4550 04:19:57.440 --> 04:20:00.600 because they were thinking of you know, Poland in nineteen 4551 04:20:00.639 --> 04:20:03.799 eighty nine, you know, Czechoslovakia in nineteen eighty nine, like 4552 04:20:04.040 --> 04:20:06.280 just take that boot off their neck, and they want 4553 04:20:06.319 --> 04:20:09.360 to wear blue jeans and basically be Americans, like if 4554 04:20:09.399 --> 04:20:11.559 they're given the opportunity, And they really did sigh off 4555 04:20:11.600 --> 04:20:14.760 themselves into believing that to a degree. But then once 4556 04:20:14.799 --> 04:20:17.639 we got in there, we had to deal with the 4557 04:20:17.719 --> 04:20:22.360 reality which the terrorist organization, the insurgents understood much better 4558 04:20:22.399 --> 04:20:24.840 than we did it first, which was, you know, they 4559 04:20:24.920 --> 04:20:29.040 knew that if they could prove that the Americans could 4560 04:20:29.079 --> 04:20:33.959 not protect you, could not provide physical security, and that 4561 04:20:34.520 --> 04:20:37.120 the Americans weren't able to ensure that you and your 4562 04:20:37.159 --> 04:20:41.360 family could eat or have water or then we weren't 4563 04:20:42.040 --> 04:20:44.680 going to be governing that country for very long, you know. 4564 04:20:45.000 --> 04:20:47.799 And the people who are capable of turning those things, 4565 04:20:47.879 --> 04:20:50.799 the violence spigot or the resource pigot on and off, 4566 04:20:50.840 --> 04:20:53.520 if the insurgents, through violence could make that be them, 4567 04:20:53.879 --> 04:20:56.879 then they would, you know, replace us. And they understood 4568 04:20:56.920 --> 04:20:59.000 that we had to kind of we had to kind 4569 04:20:59.040 --> 04:21:01.120 of adapt to that, and we got to the point 4570 04:21:01.760 --> 04:21:03.840 once you got up to like six o seven, where 4571 04:21:03.879 --> 04:21:07.040 we did kind of just accept that, you know, Betraeus 4572 04:21:07.079 --> 04:21:09.239 went out with like hundreds of millions of dollars and 4573 04:21:09.280 --> 04:21:12.639 just started paying off tribal cheeks. Not so much so that, 4574 04:21:12.760 --> 04:21:15.360 you know, it wasn't so that they could go stuff 4575 04:21:15.360 --> 04:21:17.760 it in their Swiss bank account and flee the country 4576 04:21:17.799 --> 04:21:20.159 if things go bad later on. It was so that 4577 04:21:20.399 --> 04:21:24.120 we were conferring upon them the legitimacy they needed as 4578 04:21:24.600 --> 04:21:27.680 distributors of resources. You know, they could actually give their 4579 04:21:27.719 --> 04:21:32.879 people things that they needed, while we provided physical security 4580 04:21:32.920 --> 04:21:34.959 to actually get them on our side. You know. It's 4581 04:21:35.000 --> 04:21:37.840 that's that's like really the fundamental kind of base level 4582 04:21:37.840 --> 04:21:40.920 of all of all government and so at that. I mean, 4583 04:21:41.200 --> 04:21:45.479 in that sense, if it started starts acting unpredictably at 4584 04:21:45.479 --> 04:21:47.639 that point, then you're already in a period of you know, 4585 04:21:47.719 --> 04:21:48.879 of severe breakdown. 4586 04:21:50.280 --> 04:21:53.280 Yeah. I remember a couple of years ago, my friend 4587 04:21:53.360 --> 04:21:57.000 Rachel and I were discussing, texting back and forth asking about, well, 4588 04:21:57.040 --> 04:22:00.280 if everything collapsed, who's in charge? And she said, well, 4589 04:22:00.319 --> 04:22:02.760 obviously whoever can feed whoever can feed you. 4590 04:22:04.200 --> 04:22:07.040 Yeah, Yeah, I mean that's you know, I think if 4591 04:22:07.040 --> 04:22:10.280 you go back even to the just the origins of 4592 04:22:10.360 --> 04:22:15.360 human government, you know, once you get past the sort 4593 04:22:15.360 --> 04:22:18.799 of band level of organization, you know, where the guy 4594 04:22:18.840 --> 04:22:23.559 in charge is your grandfather or whatever. You see this, 4595 04:22:23.680 --> 04:22:25.760 I mean, it's built into our myths. You see it 4596 04:22:25.799 --> 04:22:28.120 in history where you know, where we have access to 4597 04:22:28.159 --> 04:22:30.520 it is that the basic form of government is a 4598 04:22:30.559 --> 04:22:34.000 warrior and his friends. You know, if you're a farmer 4599 04:22:34.319 --> 04:22:36.719 and you're out here and you have a bunch of 4600 04:22:36.840 --> 04:22:42.120 lions terrorizing your livestock, and you know, threatening your children 4601 04:22:42.159 --> 04:22:44.799 when they go outside, and it's a pack of lions, 4602 04:22:44.799 --> 04:22:48.799 and you're a farmer, you know, in the days before firearms, 4603 04:22:48.840 --> 04:22:51.079 you know, that's a real problem for you. In fact, 4604 04:22:51.120 --> 04:22:53.360 that's like a that's a that's a life or death 4605 04:22:53.399 --> 04:22:55.399 problem for you, not just whether or not you get 4606 04:22:55.440 --> 04:22:57.479 killed by a lion, but whether you can actually do 4607 04:22:57.520 --> 04:23:00.239 the things you need to do to eat. So a 4608 04:23:00.280 --> 04:23:02.120 guy shows up on a horse with six of his 4609 04:23:02.239 --> 04:23:04.440 friends and says, where are the lions there? That way? 4610 04:23:04.479 --> 04:23:08.440 And he goes and kills those lions. That dude's in charge. 4611 04:23:08.520 --> 04:23:12.760 And you're fine with that, you know, And that's a 4612 04:23:12.879 --> 04:23:15.840 legitimate basis of human government in a lot of ways. 4613 04:23:17.200 --> 04:23:20.319 All right, A coup operates by taking advantage of this 4614 04:23:20.479 --> 04:23:25.120 machine like behavior both during and after the takeover. During 4615 04:23:25.159 --> 04:23:27.959 the coup, because it uses parts of the state apparatus 4616 04:23:28.000 --> 04:23:31.840 to seize the controlling levers, over the rest and afterward, 4617 04:23:31.920 --> 04:23:34.760 because the value of the levers depends on the degree 4618 04:23:34.879 --> 04:23:39.000 to which the state really functions as a machine. We 4619 04:23:39.040 --> 04:23:41.719 will see that some states are so well organized that 4620 04:23:41.760 --> 04:23:46.280 the machine is sufficiently sophisticated to exercise discretion according to 4621 04:23:46.360 --> 04:23:48.879 a given conception of what is proper and what is 4622 04:23:48.920 --> 04:23:52.639 not in the orders that it executes. This is the 4623 04:23:52.719 --> 04:23:56.680 case in the most advanced countries, and in such circumstances 4624 04:23:56.799 --> 04:24:00.559 a coup is very difficult to carry out. In a 4625 04:24:00.559 --> 04:24:03.719 few states, the bureaucracy is so small that the apparatus 4626 04:24:03.760 --> 04:24:07.280 is too simple and too intimately linked with the leadership 4627 04:24:07.319 --> 04:24:10.879 to allow room for a coup, as as is still 4628 04:24:10.920 --> 04:24:15.639 the case perhaps in the ex British protectorates of Southern Africa, Botswana, 4629 04:24:16.000 --> 04:24:22.120 Lesotho and Swaziland. Fortunately, most states are between those two extremes, 4630 04:24:22.399 --> 04:24:26.719 with bureaucratic machines both large and unsophisticated, and thus highly 4631 04:24:26.879 --> 04:24:30.479 vulnerable to those who can identify and seize the right levers. 4632 04:24:32.959 --> 04:24:35.559 One of the most striking developments of the twentieth century 4633 04:24:35.719 --> 04:24:39.559 was the great decline in general political stability. Since the 4634 04:24:39.559 --> 04:24:43.959 French Revolution, governments have been overthrown at an increasing pace. 4635 04:24:44.639 --> 04:24:47.920 In the nineteenth century, the French experienced two revolutions and 4636 04:24:48.000 --> 04:24:53.079 two regimes collapsed. Following the military defeat in nineteen fifty eight, 4637 04:24:53.120 --> 04:24:55.719 the change of regime that brought Charles de gaul to 4638 04:24:55.920 --> 04:24:59.760 enduring power was a blend of those elements. People every 4639 04:24:59.799 --> 04:25:02.760 whe have followed the French example, and the lifespan of 4640 04:25:02.799 --> 04:25:05.520 regimes has tended to decrease while the life span of 4641 04:25:05.559 --> 04:25:10.840 their subjects has increased. This contrast sharply with the relative 4642 04:25:10.840 --> 04:25:14.479 attachments to the system of constitutional monarchy displayed in the 4643 04:25:14.559 --> 04:25:19.079 nineteenth century. When Greeks, Bulgarians and Romanians secured their freedom 4644 04:25:19.120 --> 04:25:22.360 from the Turkish colonial system, they immediately went over to 4645 04:25:22.479 --> 04:25:27.440 Germany in order to shop around for a suitable royal family. Crowns, 4646 04:25:27.559 --> 04:25:32.520 flags and decorations were designed and purchased from reputable English suppliers. 4647 04:25:33.280 --> 04:25:37.520 Royal palaces were built, and where possible, hunting lodges, royal 4648 04:25:37.600 --> 04:25:42.479 mistresses and a local aristocracy were provided as fringe benefits. 4649 04:25:44.760 --> 04:25:47.799 Twentieth century peoples have on the other hand, showed a 4650 04:25:47.840 --> 04:25:51.559 marked lack of interest in monarchies in their paraphernalia when 4651 04:25:51.600 --> 04:25:54.440 the British kindly provided them with a proper royal family. 4652 04:25:54.920 --> 04:25:58.639 Unhappy Iraqis made numerous efforts to dispense with it before 4653 04:25:58.680 --> 04:26:03.360 finally succeeding by mass in nineteen fifty eight. Military and 4654 04:26:03.399 --> 04:26:06.760 other right wing forces have meanwhile tried to keep up 4655 04:26:06.760 --> 04:26:10.280 with violent mass movements, using their own illegal methods to 4656 04:26:10.319 --> 04:26:15.719 seize power and overthrow regimes. Why did the regimes of 4657 04:26:15.719 --> 04:26:19.079 the twentieth century prove to be so fragile? It is, 4658 04:26:19.120 --> 04:26:23.319 after all, paradoxical that this fragility increased while the established 4659 04:26:23.319 --> 04:26:27.319 procedures for securing changes in government were becoming more flexible. 4660 04:26:28.079 --> 04:26:31.680 The political scientists will reply that although the procedures became 4661 04:26:31.719 --> 04:26:35.600 more flexible, the pressures for change were also becoming stronger, 4662 04:26:35.959 --> 04:26:38.719 and the increase in flexibility did not keep up with 4663 04:26:38.760 --> 04:26:45.520 the increased social and economic stresses. Violent metho you want 4664 04:26:45.520 --> 04:26:45.879 to say. 4665 04:26:45.840 --> 04:26:47.879 Well, yeah, I actually wanted to go back a little 4666 04:26:47.879 --> 04:26:52.360 bit too. I was thinking about when he was talking 4667 04:26:52.360 --> 04:26:54.760 about you know that you have to kind of have 4668 04:26:54.840 --> 04:26:59.920 this Goldilock's bureaucracy, right, this goldilocks state where it is 4669 04:27:01.479 --> 04:27:05.120 developed enough that it's worth taking the reins of you know, 4670 04:27:05.200 --> 04:27:07.520 if you that if you get the control of it, 4671 04:27:07.680 --> 04:27:10.639 then you actually have power that you know, it's developed 4672 04:27:10.719 --> 04:27:14.079 enough for that, but that it's not so mature that 4673 04:27:15.120 --> 04:27:18.840 it can exercise self will you know, if it doesn't 4674 04:27:18.920 --> 04:27:21.239 like who the leader is or what the leader wants 4675 04:27:21.280 --> 04:27:25.440 to do. And you know, there's a there's a sense 4676 04:27:25.479 --> 04:27:30.079 in which if you think of like the National Socialist 4677 04:27:30.120 --> 04:27:33.159 Revolution in Germany, you know, obviously that wasn't a coup 4678 04:27:33.239 --> 04:27:35.520 or kup atah or anything, but it really was like 4679 04:27:35.559 --> 04:27:37.479 a I mean, it was a revolution and the system 4680 04:27:37.520 --> 04:27:40.559 of government there for sure that if you were to 4681 04:27:40.600 --> 04:27:45.479 go back, you know before that, well it was something 4682 04:27:45.479 --> 04:27:50.159 that like it like not understanding this. The this part, 4683 04:27:50.440 --> 04:27:52.520 I think kind of led to it was part of 4684 04:27:52.559 --> 04:27:58.680 what led to the conflict that eventually emerged between the 4685 04:27:58.719 --> 04:28:03.639 regime and the sort of the old school hardcore revolutionaries 4686 04:28:03.639 --> 04:28:06.600 of like the Essay for example, right, because once Hitler 4687 04:28:06.639 --> 04:28:09.479 got into power, he had to he had to deal 4688 04:28:09.520 --> 04:28:13.719 with the fact that this machinery existed that he was 4689 04:28:13.760 --> 04:28:16.719 now at the controls of that he had to compromise 4690 04:28:16.799 --> 04:28:20.319 with on someone you know, because it was developed enough 4691 04:28:20.520 --> 04:28:23.120 to resist anything he wanted to do if he couldn't 4692 04:28:23.159 --> 04:28:24.680 co opt it like that, and he had to make 4693 04:28:24.719 --> 04:28:29.799 certain compromises to accommodate it. And you know, the ernst 4694 04:28:29.840 --> 04:28:32.440 Rome's of the world and stuff. These were hardcore, like 4695 04:28:32.479 --> 04:28:34.639 street revolutionaries, and they didn't like that. And you see 4696 04:28:34.639 --> 04:28:36.559 that in a lot of these revolutions, and it's why, 4697 04:28:37.239 --> 04:28:41.079 you know, in revolutions all over the world throughout the 4698 04:28:41.079 --> 04:28:45.159 twentieth century, the first thing that happens is the revolutionary 4699 04:28:45.200 --> 04:28:47.840 seized control of the government. And the second thing that 4700 04:28:47.959 --> 04:28:51.200 happens is most of the revolutionaries get killed off by 4701 04:28:51.200 --> 04:28:52.319 the boss. You know. 4702 04:28:54.440 --> 04:28:59.040 Yeah, and if you study you know, if you study 4703 04:28:59.120 --> 04:29:02.399 the rise of then socialists and they're taking power, it's 4704 04:29:02.440 --> 04:29:06.159 pretty clear why Thomas went over that. We did a 4705 04:29:06.159 --> 04:29:10.559 whole episode on that, and he just liked that. I 4706 04:29:10.600 --> 04:29:13.280 from a real politic standpoint, it's like, yeah, these are 4707 04:29:13.280 --> 04:29:15.879 the guys who brought you here. But I mean, some 4708 04:29:16.559 --> 04:29:19.040 of these guys just they weren't going to be along 4709 04:29:19.079 --> 04:29:20.799 for the ride and they were not going to let 4710 04:29:20.840 --> 04:29:21.440 go on their own. 4711 04:29:22.000 --> 04:29:26.520 Yeah, this is a this is a total off topic 4712 04:29:26.559 --> 04:29:28.639 digression real quick, but I'm just going to throw it 4713 04:29:28.639 --> 04:29:30.479 out there in case you have anybody who wants to 4714 04:29:30.520 --> 04:29:32.600 pick this one up, Like if I was if I 4715 04:29:32.639 --> 04:29:35.280 had any talent as a fiction writer, like as a novelist, 4716 04:29:35.680 --> 04:29:37.719 you know, the book I would write. I would love 4717 04:29:37.799 --> 04:29:43.399 to read a book that is about It's a biography 4718 04:29:43.479 --> 04:29:47.719 or a mini biography of the period of Hitler's life 4719 04:29:48.360 --> 04:29:50.879 from the rise to power, like through the twenties, you know, 4720 04:29:51.079 --> 04:29:55.399 from the Puts and on its way up, all the 4721 04:29:55.399 --> 04:29:58.479 way up and ends in nineteen thirty four when he 4722 04:29:58.559 --> 04:30:01.239 had to kill Rome and a of these essay guys, 4723 04:30:01.879 --> 04:30:05.559 and just the inner turmoil that he had to have 4724 04:30:05.600 --> 04:30:09.000 gone through, you know, having to having to take out, uh, 4725 04:30:09.239 --> 04:30:11.159 so many of the people who had you know, been 4726 04:30:11.280 --> 04:30:13.200 who had ridden with him up to that point and 4727 04:30:13.280 --> 04:30:16.120 been through everything with him, and coming to the conclusion 4728 04:30:16.879 --> 04:30:19.840 and having to carry out uh something that you know 4729 04:30:20.120 --> 04:30:23.840 that was necessary but but maybe very distasteful to him. 4730 04:30:23.840 --> 04:30:25.399 I think I would. I think that would be a 4731 04:30:25.399 --> 04:30:26.040 great story. 4732 04:30:27.360 --> 04:30:32.680 Yeah. I think most people, uh most people hear that 4733 04:30:32.760 --> 04:30:36.000 story just think he was an absolute mad man and 4734 04:30:36.079 --> 04:30:40.959 done taken a consideration, you know, what he thought, what 4735 04:30:41.040 --> 04:30:44.600 he believed was coming, and what needed and you know 4736 04:30:45.159 --> 04:30:47.040 what the what the fight was actually going to be, 4737 04:30:47.120 --> 04:30:52.920 and well, yeah, well let's go, let's go on. We 4738 04:30:52.920 --> 04:30:56.360 we get detorted on that one for a while, all right. 4739 04:30:58.200 --> 04:31:01.520 Violent methods are generally used when legal methods of securing 4740 04:31:01.600 --> 04:31:05.520 a governmental change are useless because they are either too rigid, 4741 04:31:05.799 --> 04:31:08.159 as in the case of ruling monarchies where the ruler 4742 04:31:08.239 --> 04:31:12.879 actually controls policy formation, or not rigid enough. It was 4743 04:31:12.920 --> 04:31:16.000 once remarked, for example, that the throne of Russia was, 4744 04:31:16.360 --> 04:31:22.559 until the seventeenth century neither hereditary nor elective, but occupative occupative. 4745 04:31:23.920 --> 04:31:29.920 The long series of abdications forced by the Great Boyar 4746 04:31:30.040 --> 04:31:36.079 landlords and the Streltsi the Kremlin Palace guards had weakened 4747 04:31:36.079 --> 04:31:39.680 the hereditary principle so that whoever took the throne became czar. 4748 04:31:40.280 --> 04:31:44.920 Precedents by birth counted for little. Some contemporary republics have 4749 04:31:45.040 --> 04:31:47.719 ended up in this position, which comes about when a 4750 04:31:47.719 --> 04:31:50.680 long series of illegal seizures of power leads to a 4751 04:31:50.719 --> 04:31:54.399 decay of the legal and political structures needed to produce 4752 04:31:54.479 --> 04:31:58.360 new governments. Thus Syria went through more than a dozen 4753 04:31:58.440 --> 04:32:02.440 coups before the Assad family dynasty was established by Hafez 4754 04:32:02.559 --> 04:32:06.399 A la Sad's nineteen seventy coup, and the provisions for 4755 04:32:06.520 --> 04:32:12.000 all open general elections written in the Harani Constitution could 4756 04:32:12.159 --> 04:32:16.799 no longer be applied because the necessary supervisory machinery decayed 4757 04:32:16.799 --> 04:32:21.120 and disappeared. Assuming, however, that there is an established procedure 4758 04:32:21.159 --> 04:32:24.879 for changing the leadership, that all other methods must fall 4759 04:32:25.000 --> 04:32:29.479 within some category of illegality. What we call them depends 4760 04:32:29.479 --> 04:32:32.639 on what side we are on, but skipping some of 4761 04:32:32.639 --> 04:32:37.760 the details, we use one of the following terms. All right, 4762 04:32:37.840 --> 04:32:40.200 so a bunch of lists of terms here, though with 4763 04:32:40.520 --> 04:32:43.479 brief explanations. Revolution. 4764 04:32:43.920 --> 04:32:45.799 Oh sorry, I was just going to jump in real 4765 04:32:45.840 --> 04:32:51.040 quick and say, like, you know, there's a look the 4766 04:32:51.079 --> 04:32:55.280 obvious geopolitical reason that the post colonial states in the 4767 04:32:55.280 --> 04:32:59.440 twentieth century were the places where, you know, coups happened 4768 04:32:59.440 --> 04:33:02.079 more than any their places. One part of its geopolitical 4769 04:33:02.120 --> 04:33:06.080 and it's obvious, right that was the those are the 4770 04:33:06.080 --> 04:33:08.439 places that were up for grabs in the Cold War, right, 4771 04:33:08.479 --> 04:33:10.840 and so they had both sides sort of vuying for them, 4772 04:33:11.639 --> 04:33:15.159 but also from like a lootwalk perspective, you know, it's 4773 04:33:15.200 --> 04:33:17.959 interesting because they those those were the countries that kind 4774 04:33:17.959 --> 04:33:21.240 of fit the model that he's talking about here the 4775 04:33:21.279 --> 04:33:24.759 best in the sense that you had these say in Africa, 4776 04:33:24.840 --> 04:33:28.639 you had these countries that really were only countries because 4777 04:33:29.000 --> 04:33:31.759 the French and the British drew some lines on a map. 4778 04:33:31.840 --> 04:33:32.000 Right. 4779 04:33:32.040 --> 04:33:36.240 That's why it's a country that has a state machinery 4780 04:33:36.599 --> 04:33:40.159 that is somewhat well developed because it was either left 4781 04:33:40.159 --> 04:33:45.119 in place or put in place as the colonizers were leaving. 4782 04:33:45.720 --> 04:33:48.119 And so there's this machinery that can kind of run 4783 04:33:48.159 --> 04:33:52.360 the country, kind can kind of defend itself against interlopers 4784 04:33:52.360 --> 04:33:55.799 and so forth. It exists and whoever controls it, you know, 4785 04:33:56.040 --> 04:33:59.200 is sort of in charge. But there's no you know, 4786 04:33:59.240 --> 04:34:02.279 the population itself is just broken up into tribes. They 4787 04:34:02.279 --> 04:34:05.479 don't identify with each other. There's no nation underlying this thing. 4788 04:34:05.520 --> 04:34:09.720 In other words, the power of structure doesn't actually represent 4789 04:34:10.400 --> 04:34:13.639 any organic power. It's just this thing that's there that's 4790 04:34:13.639 --> 04:34:16.680 sort of that that's sort of imposed on people. It's 4791 04:34:16.720 --> 04:34:20.639 not it's not representative of anything that really like on 4792 04:34:20.720 --> 04:34:23.639 the ground. Right, Like if you look at Afghanistan, for example, 4793 04:34:24.360 --> 04:34:26.799 you know, there are people who are we going to 4794 04:34:26.840 --> 04:34:29.279 call them geniuses or anything. There's people with basic common 4795 04:34:29.319 --> 04:34:31.240 sense who back in two thousand and one we're saying, 4796 04:34:31.240 --> 04:34:33.360 this is a this is just never going to work 4797 04:34:33.400 --> 04:34:36.040 in the long term for the very simple reason that 4798 04:34:36.080 --> 04:34:38.560 the Northern Alliance, all these people that like, we're going 4799 04:34:38.560 --> 04:34:42.560 over there and wanting to ally with that, these people, 4800 04:34:42.799 --> 04:34:44.840 it's a it's a big coalition of all the different 4801 04:34:44.840 --> 04:34:48.240 minority groups in Afghanistan, and you want to bring this 4802 04:34:48.319 --> 04:34:51.200 coalition together. They have nothing in common. They really don't have, 4803 04:34:51.680 --> 04:34:55.959 you know, any anything that they share other than their 4804 04:34:56.240 --> 04:35:00.799 opposition to the postune majority. And so it's going to 4805 04:35:00.840 --> 04:35:04.040 make them completely dependent on the United States occupation forces. 4806 04:35:04.040 --> 04:35:07.080 And once that occupation forces leave, whether it's now, whether 4807 04:35:07.080 --> 04:35:10.520 it's in a hundred years, those people are are going 4808 04:35:10.599 --> 04:35:14.279 to scatter to the winds because the real power, the 4809 04:35:14.479 --> 04:35:17.479 organic power in this country is the postune majority that 4810 04:35:17.639 --> 04:35:21.279 is organized under the Taliban, and you know, and that's 4811 04:35:21.639 --> 04:35:23.840 real power, whether or not, whether or not they are 4812 04:35:23.880 --> 04:35:27.240 represented in the government or not. Usually, uh, you know, 4813 04:35:27.360 --> 04:35:29.680 reality wins out. And so you have a lot of 4814 04:35:29.680 --> 04:35:33.000 these African countries and other post colonial countries that had 4815 04:35:33.000 --> 04:35:37.000 that state machinery with nothing underneath it. And even a 4816 04:35:37.000 --> 04:35:39.720 place like Liberia. Liberia is actually a great example because 4817 04:35:39.720 --> 04:35:42.159 it was never a colony. You know, it was like 4818 04:35:42.759 --> 04:35:46.159 you had essentially like Monrovia was like a city state 4819 04:35:46.759 --> 04:35:49.319 where you know, a bunch of former American slaves had 4820 04:35:49.360 --> 04:35:51.759 gone to had gone to live. And they never really 4821 04:35:51.840 --> 04:35:55.319 even left Monrovia or the immediate environs of Monrovia much. 4822 04:35:55.360 --> 04:35:58.599 They didn't go out to the hinterlands, you know, or anything. 4823 04:35:59.119 --> 04:36:01.400 But then once the Wrench in the British really started 4824 04:36:01.400 --> 04:36:05.840 to get on their colonization spree in Africa, we started 4825 04:36:05.840 --> 04:36:09.840 putting pressure on the Americo Liberians in Monrovio. We're like, 4826 04:36:09.880 --> 04:36:11.799 you need to become a country. You can't just be 4827 04:36:11.840 --> 04:36:13.680 a city state. We need you to form the country 4828 04:36:14.240 --> 04:36:16.880 of Liberia, and we're going to define its borders so 4829 04:36:16.919 --> 04:36:19.360 that we can say to the French and British, like, 4830 04:36:19.479 --> 04:36:21.200 you can't come in here, you have to stay out 4831 04:36:21.240 --> 04:36:23.720 of this area. And so they did, and they went 4832 04:36:23.759 --> 04:36:27.360 and they created a quote unquote country of Liberia with 4833 04:36:27.479 --> 04:36:30.599 a government of Liberia, you know, and they created a 4834 04:36:30.639 --> 04:36:34.799 sort of national quote unquote police force that went out 4835 04:36:34.840 --> 04:36:38.840 and found which tribal authorities and chiefs could be co opted, 4836 04:36:38.880 --> 04:36:42.200 getting rid of the ones that couldn't, and then reinforcing 4837 04:36:42.200 --> 04:36:44.840 the co opted ones authority with the national you know, 4838 04:36:44.880 --> 04:36:48.400 security forces. But it was it was always just very 4839 04:36:48.520 --> 04:36:51.520 very very inorganic, you know, it never had any purchase 4840 04:36:51.639 --> 04:36:54.279 like on the ground. In most of the country. It 4841 04:36:54.319 --> 04:36:57.240 was something that they existed on paper to a large degree. 4842 04:36:57.279 --> 04:37:00.599 And you saw in the twentieth century that you know, 4843 04:37:00.680 --> 04:37:04.000 with the slightest push, a place like that comes apart. 4844 04:37:06.479 --> 04:37:12.959 All right. First one, revolution the action is conducted initially 4845 04:37:13.000 --> 04:37:17.240 at any rate, by uncoordinated popular masses, and it aims 4846 04:37:17.240 --> 04:37:20.759 at changing the social and political structures, as well as 4847 04:37:20.799 --> 04:37:24.759 the personalities and the leadership. The term revolution has gained 4848 04:37:24.759 --> 04:37:28.200 a certain popularity and many coups are graced with it 4849 04:37:28.639 --> 04:37:31.840 because of the implication that it was the people rather 4850 04:37:31.880 --> 04:37:35.040 than a few plotters who did the whole thing. Thus, 4851 04:37:35.080 --> 04:37:41.000 the obscure aims abd Abd al Karim Kassim had in 4852 04:37:41.080 --> 04:37:44.200 mind when he overthrew the Iraqi regime of King Faisal 4853 04:37:44.520 --> 04:37:49.439 the Second and Prime Minister nourri said are locally known 4854 04:37:49.520 --> 04:37:56.479 as the Sacred Principles of the July fourteenth Revolution. Next 4855 04:37:56.479 --> 04:38:00.520 one is civil war. Civil war is outright warfare between 4856 04:38:00.560 --> 04:38:05.279 elements of the armed forces and or the population at large. 4857 04:38:05.400 --> 04:38:08.919 The term is perpetually unfashionable. Whenever there is a civil war, 4858 04:38:09.319 --> 04:38:13.680 all sides typically deny its existence, variously passing it off 4859 04:38:13.720 --> 04:38:16.959 as an international war, such as the war between the 4860 04:38:17.000 --> 04:38:21.799 states of the Confederacy, or more often as a foreign aggression. 4861 04:38:22.200 --> 04:38:25.000 Though in Franco's Spain, the civil war of nineteen thirty 4862 04:38:25.000 --> 04:38:29.040 six to nineteen thirty nine was always la Cruzada the 4863 04:38:29.119 --> 04:38:40.959 Crusade siamiento. This is an essentially Spanish and South American 4864 04:38:41.040 --> 04:38:44.520 version of the military coup de'ta, but many recent African 4865 04:38:44.560 --> 04:38:48.919 coups have also taken this particular form. In its original 4866 04:38:48.959 --> 04:38:52.720 nineteenth century Spanish version, it was a highly ritualized process. 4867 04:38:53.319 --> 04:38:57.200 First came the trabajos, literally the works, in which the 4868 04:38:57.279 --> 04:39:00.720 opinions of army officers were sounded. The next step was 4869 04:39:00.759 --> 04:39:05.720 the compromisos, in which commitments were made and rewards promised. 4870 04:39:06.119 --> 04:39:08.919 Then came the call for action, and finally the appeal 4871 04:39:08.959 --> 04:39:12.479 to the troops to follow their officers in rebellion against 4872 04:39:12.560 --> 04:39:19.200 the government. The pronunciamanto was often a liberal rather than 4873 04:39:19.200 --> 04:39:23.279 a reactionary phenomenon, and the theoretical purpose of the takeover 4874 04:39:23.479 --> 04:39:29.919 was to ascertain the national will. A typical liberal concept. Later, 4875 04:39:29.959 --> 04:39:33.360 as the army became increasingly right wing while Spanish governments 4876 04:39:33.400 --> 04:39:37.479 became less so, the theory shifted from the neoliberal national 4877 04:39:37.520 --> 04:39:42.279 will to the neo conservative real will theory. The latter 4878 04:39:42.400 --> 04:39:47.080 postulates that the prospulates the existence of a national essence, 4879 04:39:47.200 --> 04:39:52.279 a sort of permanent spiritual structure which the wishes of 4880 04:39:52.360 --> 04:39:56.680 the majority may not always express. The army was entrusted 4881 04:39:56.720 --> 04:40:00.439 with the interpretation and preservation of this essential s Spain, 4882 04:40:01.080 --> 04:40:03.799 and the obligation to protect it against the government and, 4883 04:40:04.159 --> 04:40:11.959 if need be, against the people. Siamiento was organized and 4884 04:40:12.040 --> 04:40:15.200 led by a particular army leader, but it was carried 4885 04:40:15.240 --> 04:40:17.959 out in the name of the entire officer corps. Unlike 4886 04:40:18.000 --> 04:40:21.119 the pusch, which is carried out by a faction within 4887 04:40:21.200 --> 04:40:24.520 the army, or the coup, which can also be executed 4888 04:40:24.520 --> 04:40:29.680 by civilians using some army units, the pronounciamiento leads to 4889 04:40:29.759 --> 04:40:33.560 a takeover by the army as a whole. Many African 4890 04:40:33.639 --> 04:40:36.599 takeovers in which the army had participated as a whole 4891 04:40:36.680 --> 04:40:42.560 were therefore very similar to the classic pronouncmento what do you? 4892 04:40:43.319 --> 04:40:48.240 How do you? This was written before before Chile nineteen 4893 04:40:48.319 --> 04:40:51.919 seventy three would how would that be How would that 4894 04:40:51.959 --> 04:40:52.840 even fit into that? 4895 04:40:53.840 --> 04:40:55.959 Yeah, I think it would fit into what he's saying, 4896 04:40:56.240 --> 04:40:59.319 you know, in the sense of representing at least the 4897 04:40:59.360 --> 04:41:00.959 majority of the armed forces. 4898 04:41:02.080 --> 04:41:02.240 You know. 4899 04:41:02.240 --> 04:41:08.319 It's Another interesting example is like when CECI in Egypt 4900 04:41:08.360 --> 04:41:12.840 throughout the Muslim Brotherhood, and you know, you saw in 4901 04:41:12.880 --> 04:41:14.919 that situation. I mean, in a way you could say 4902 04:41:14.959 --> 04:41:17.840 that wasn't it wasn't quite a coup in the sense 4903 04:41:17.880 --> 04:41:22.720 that what was really happening was the real power in 4904 04:41:22.799 --> 04:41:27.040 the in the country was revealing itself. You know that 4905 04:41:27.040 --> 04:41:29.959 the that the deep state there was always in charge 4906 04:41:30.400 --> 04:41:33.080 election or no election, and it was it was making 4907 04:41:33.119 --> 04:41:36.200 that clear. But still like that's how it played out. 4908 04:41:36.959 --> 04:41:41.119 But when that happened, you know, sure Mubarak was in 4909 04:41:41.200 --> 04:41:43.279 jail and everything, but if you looked at it, I mean, 4910 04:41:44.680 --> 04:41:46.560 every time CEC was on stage, like he was on 4911 04:41:46.639 --> 04:41:50.200 camera somewhere, it's just nothing but four stars flanking him 4912 04:41:50.200 --> 04:41:52.720 on either side. And if you look at something like 4913 04:41:52.799 --> 04:41:57.319 the twenty was it fifteen or sixteen attempt against ern 4914 04:41:58.240 --> 04:42:01.840 and I remember when they first went on the people 4915 04:42:01.840 --> 04:42:04.959 who were pushing the putch or coup, whatever you want 4916 04:42:04.959 --> 04:42:06.119 to call I guess this would be a putch in 4917 04:42:06.200 --> 04:42:09.360 Lutwalk's terms. And I remember watching it and seeing like 4918 04:42:09.599 --> 04:42:12.439 I think there was like a two star on stage talking, 4919 04:42:12.880 --> 04:42:15.200 but then there was like a couple of colonels and 4920 04:42:15.240 --> 04:42:17.680 then there was like a captain on stage. I'm like, 4921 04:42:18.080 --> 04:42:21.080 if you got a captain on stage for your coup, 4922 04:42:21.279 --> 04:42:23.639 like it's over. This is not gonna work. There's just 4923 04:42:23.680 --> 04:42:27.400 no he should be like getting coffee for somebody, for 4924 04:42:27.479 --> 04:42:29.200 all the four stars that are or else. This is 4925 04:42:29.279 --> 04:42:31.200 not gonna work. And sure enough it didn't work. 4926 04:42:33.080 --> 04:42:36.159 All right, Let's move on to the puch. Essentially a 4927 04:42:36.200 --> 04:42:41.680 wartime or immediately postwar phenomenon, a pusch is attempted by 4928 04:42:41.840 --> 04:42:45.479 a formal body within the armed forces under its appointment, 4929 04:42:46.279 --> 04:42:51.240 under its appointed leadership. Excuse me. The corny Love putsch 4930 04:42:51.400 --> 04:42:54.400 is a clear example. Lavera Korni Love, a general in 4931 04:42:54.520 --> 04:42:57.639 charge of an army group in northern Russia, attempted to 4932 04:42:57.680 --> 04:43:02.279 seize the then Petrograd Petersburg in order to establish a 4933 04:43:02.279 --> 04:43:06.360 fighting regime that would prosecute the war. Had he succeeded, 4934 04:43:06.400 --> 04:43:10.040 the city would perhaps have borne his name instead of Lenin, 4935 04:43:10.279 --> 04:43:17.319 as it did until nineteen ninety one liberation. A state 4936 04:43:17.400 --> 04:43:20.240 may be said by supporters of the change to be 4937 04:43:20.360 --> 04:43:24.319 liberated when its government is overthrown by foreign military or 4938 04:43:24.360 --> 04:43:28.639 diplomatic intervention. A classic case of this was the installation 4939 04:43:28.759 --> 04:43:32.360 of the communist leadership in Romania in nineteen forty seven. 4940 04:43:33.040 --> 04:43:36.080 The USSR forced to then King Michael to accept a 4941 04:43:36.119 --> 04:43:41.000 new cabinet by threatening direct military force by the Soviet Army. 4942 04:43:42.119 --> 04:43:46.599 You ever read what Evela had to say about the 4943 04:43:46.639 --> 04:43:47.240 Iron Guard. 4944 04:43:48.959 --> 04:43:51.720 No, I've read a lot of Evela, but I can't 4945 04:43:51.720 --> 04:43:52.759 remember anything about that. 4946 04:43:53.319 --> 04:43:55.319 It's like a ten page article. And he said that 4947 04:43:55.759 --> 04:44:00.319 if anybody was going to defeat Bolshevism in your it 4948 04:44:00.360 --> 04:44:02.479 would have been it would have been the Romanian Iron Guard. 4949 04:44:02.520 --> 04:44:04.799 It would have been Clergiano and the Romanian Iron Guard, 4950 04:44:04.840 --> 04:44:12.360 he said, just because not only a nationalistic feeling, but 4951 04:44:12.360 --> 04:44:16.080 also the Orthodox, the Orthodox feeling, and then just a 4952 04:44:17.040 --> 04:44:22.759 they had recognized the influence of certain groups in Bolshevism 4953 04:44:23.000 --> 04:44:26.000 very early on, and we're and we're writing about it. 4954 04:44:26.479 --> 04:44:30.200 Yeah, and maybe that's why, you know, the Legionnaires probably 4955 04:44:30.240 --> 04:44:33.840 got it worse than just about every other anti communist 4956 04:44:33.880 --> 04:44:36.599 group in Europe, you know, in Poteste prison, in some 4957 04:44:36.639 --> 04:44:38.000 of the other places. 4958 04:44:38.959 --> 04:44:41.720 Man, all right, let me keep doing. I don't want 4959 04:44:41.759 --> 04:44:44.279 to talk about that. That makes it, that makes me ill, 4960 04:44:46.959 --> 04:44:51.000 war of national liberation, insurgency, et cetera. In this form 4961 04:44:51.040 --> 04:44:54.080 of internal conflict, the aim of the initiating party is 4962 04:44:54.080 --> 04:44:56.919 not to seize power within the state, but rather to 4963 04:44:56.959 --> 04:45:00.439 set up a rival state structure. This can be politically, 4964 04:45:00.639 --> 04:45:04.439 ethnically or religiously based, as with the Taliban, whose aim 4965 04:45:05.000 --> 04:45:09.759 is in Afghanistan wholly converted to their own Deobandi or 4966 04:45:09.840 --> 04:45:13.880 Wahabi Islam, which contrives to be both the official state 4967 04:45:13.919 --> 04:45:18.040 religion of Saudi Arabia and a rigorously fanatical ideology that 4968 04:45:18.119 --> 04:45:21.759 denies any legitimacy whatsoever. It's any other form of Islam, 4969 04:45:22.279 --> 04:45:28.720 let alone non Muslim faiths. As for secessionist insurgencies, they 4970 04:45:28.759 --> 04:45:34.000 are necessarily ethnically based, though ethnicity can be all in 4971 04:45:34.040 --> 04:45:38.200 the mind, as with the Eritreans and Ethiopians, as with 4972 04:45:38.279 --> 04:45:41.599 the Kurds of Iraq as well as Iran and Turkey, 4973 04:45:41.720 --> 04:45:45.080 the Somalis of Kenya and Ethiopia, the current people in 4974 04:45:45.119 --> 04:45:51.959 Burma and formerly the Nagas of India. All Right, the 4975 04:45:52.040 --> 04:46:02.159 definition of the coudetat drink real quick. A kudata involves 4976 04:46:02.200 --> 04:46:05.680 some elements of all these different methods by which power 4977 04:46:05.720 --> 04:46:08.639 can be seized, but unlike most of them, the coup 4978 04:46:08.720 --> 04:46:12.080 is not assisted by the intervention of the masses or 4979 04:46:12.119 --> 04:46:16.040 by any large scale form of combat by military forces. 4980 04:46:17.000 --> 04:46:20.080 The assistance of these forms of direct force would no 4981 04:46:20.159 --> 04:46:22.919 doubt make it easier to seize power, but it would 4982 04:46:22.919 --> 04:46:25.560 be unrealistic to think that they would be available to 4983 04:46:25.599 --> 04:46:29.200 the organizers of a coup. Because we will not be 4984 04:46:29.599 --> 04:46:34.040 in charge of the armed forces. We cannot hope to 4985 04:46:34.080 --> 04:46:37.639 start planning of a coup with sizable military units already 4986 04:46:37.720 --> 04:46:41.200 under our control, nor will the pre coup government usually 4987 04:46:41.240 --> 04:46:44.439 allow us to carry out the propaganda and organization necessary 4988 04:46:44.479 --> 04:46:48.200 to make effective use of the broad masses of the people. 4989 04:46:50.159 --> 04:46:53.200 A second distinguishing feature of a coup is that it 4990 04:46:53.240 --> 04:46:59.319 does not imply any particular political orientation. Revolutions are usually leftists, 4991 04:46:59.639 --> 04:47:03.680 while the which and the pronunciamiento are usually initiated by 4992 04:47:03.799 --> 04:47:08.240 right wing forces. A coup, however, is politically neutral, and 4993 04:47:08.279 --> 04:47:11.599 there is no presumption that any particular policies will be 4994 04:47:11.639 --> 04:47:14.959 followed after the seizure of power. It is true that 4995 04:47:15.000 --> 04:47:17.799 many coups have been of a decidedly right wing character, 4996 04:47:18.560 --> 04:47:23.959 but there is nothing inevitable about that. If a coup 4997 04:47:24.000 --> 04:47:26.880 does not make use of the masses or of warfare, 4998 04:47:27.159 --> 04:47:29.880 what instrument of power will enable it to seize control 4999 04:47:29.919 --> 04:47:33.040 of the state. The short answer is that power will 5000 04:47:33.080 --> 04:47:36.279 come from the state itself. The long answer makes up 5001 04:47:36.319 --> 04:47:39.479 the bulk of this book. The following is our formal 5002 04:47:39.799 --> 04:47:45.279 and functional definition of a coup. A coup consists of 5003 04:47:45.319 --> 04:47:48.520 the infiltration of a small but critical segment of the 5004 04:47:48.560 --> 04:47:52.240 state apparatus, which is then used to displace the government 5005 04:47:52.319 --> 04:47:59.040 from its control of the remainder. And there is footnotes 5006 04:47:59.080 --> 04:48:03.520 for chapter one, start chapter two and cefr we get. 5007 04:48:04.880 --> 04:48:04.919 No. 5008 04:48:06.560 --> 04:48:08.279 Whenever you need to break off, just let me know 5009 04:48:09.919 --> 04:48:16.479 Chapter two, when is a kudeta possible? Quoting the Bolsheviks 5010 04:48:16.520 --> 04:48:18.840 have no right to wait for the Congress of Soviets. 5011 04:48:18.919 --> 04:48:22.240 They must take power immediately victory is assured, and there 5012 04:48:22.319 --> 04:48:24.919 are nine chances out of ten that it will be bloodless. 5013 04:48:25.319 --> 04:48:29.119 To wait is a crime against the revolution. That's Vladimir 5014 04:48:29.240 --> 04:48:38.119 ilitch Ilyanov lenin October nineteen seventeen. The process of decolonization 5015 04:48:38.240 --> 04:48:40.439 that started soon after the end of the Second World 5016 04:48:40.520 --> 04:48:43.639 War first doubled and then more than triple the number 5017 04:48:43.680 --> 04:48:47.000 of independent states, so that the opportunities open to us 5018 04:48:47.000 --> 04:48:51.720 have expanded in a most gratifying manner. We have to recognize, however, 5019 04:48:52.000 --> 04:48:54.880 that not all states make good targets for our attentions. 5020 04:48:55.400 --> 04:48:57.520 There is nothing to prevent us from carrying out a 5021 04:48:57.639 --> 04:49:00.799 kup and say the United Kingdom, but we would probably 5022 04:49:00.840 --> 04:49:02.799 be unable to stay in power for more than a 5023 04:49:02.799 --> 04:49:06.159 short time. The public and the bureaucracy have a basic 5024 04:49:06.240 --> 04:49:09.040 understanding of the nature and legal basis of the government, 5025 04:49:09.279 --> 04:49:13.279 and they would react in order to restore a legitimate leadership. 5026 04:49:15.200 --> 04:49:18.959 This reaction renders any initial success of the coup meaningless, 5027 04:49:19.240 --> 04:49:21.720 and it would arise even though the pre coup government 5028 04:49:21.840 --> 04:49:25.599 may have been unpopular and the new faces may be attractive. 5029 04:49:26.560 --> 04:49:29.959 The reaction would arise from the fact that a significant 5030 04:49:29.959 --> 04:49:33.240 part of the population takes an active interest in political 5031 04:49:33.279 --> 04:49:37.560 life and regularly participates in it. This implies a recognition 5032 04:49:37.639 --> 04:49:40.799 that the power of the government derives from its legitimate origin, 5033 04:49:41.279 --> 04:49:43.959 and even those who have no reason to support the 5034 04:49:44.000 --> 04:49:47.680 old Guard have many good reasons to support the principle 5035 04:49:47.919 --> 04:49:52.159 of legitimacy. I guess that's really important when you have 5036 04:49:54.400 --> 04:49:58.040 so many people, a good percentage of your population who's 5037 04:49:58.159 --> 04:50:01.720 actually employed by the governm or living off of its teeth. 5038 04:50:03.799 --> 04:50:06.119 Yeah, it is. And I think you see exactly what 5039 04:50:06.159 --> 04:50:09.959 he's talking about in how the way a lot of 5040 04:50:10.080 --> 04:50:14.919 conservatives in the United States today, you know, they can 5041 04:50:14.959 --> 04:50:20.000 be blocked up for fifteen years for trespassing in the capital, 5042 04:50:20.159 --> 04:50:23.639 they can be spied on for their political activity, whatever, 5043 04:50:23.720 --> 04:50:26.720 all of these things, and they still will fall back 5044 04:50:26.799 --> 04:50:29.479 on a constitution, you know. And it's because they do. 5045 04:50:29.799 --> 04:50:33.400 And that's look, that's a that's a noble impulse, you know, 5046 04:50:33.439 --> 04:50:36.560 I mean, it's it's a sense that they have that 5047 04:50:37.360 --> 04:50:39.919 you know, we have this this bolwark that if we 5048 04:50:40.000 --> 04:50:42.840 give up and we give that up, then there's going 5049 04:50:42.919 --> 04:50:44.439 to be real chaos on the other side of it. 5050 04:50:44.479 --> 04:50:46.680 And so we have to suffer what we must in 5051 04:50:46.799 --> 04:50:50.319 order to sustain it. But but that's that you know, 5052 04:50:50.439 --> 04:50:53.599 principle of legitimacy that people hold on to long after 5053 04:50:54.240 --> 04:50:56.720 it really has any any reality to it. 5054 04:50:59.080 --> 04:51:01.880 We are all familiar with the periodic surveys which show 5055 04:51:02.080 --> 04:51:05.360 that say twenty percent of the sample failed to correctly 5056 04:51:05.439 --> 04:51:07.919 name the prime minister. And we know that a large 5057 04:51:07.919 --> 04:51:12.720 part of the population has only the vagus contact with politics. Nevertheless, 5058 04:51:12.759 --> 04:51:15.759 in most developed countries, those who do take an active 5059 04:51:15.799 --> 04:51:19.799 interest in politics form in absolute terms a very large group. 5060 04:51:20.799 --> 04:51:25.400 Controversial policy decisions stimulate and bring to the surface this participation. 5061 04:51:26.080 --> 04:51:28.959 Pressure groups are formed, letters are sent to the press 5062 04:51:29.119 --> 04:51:33.080 and the politician, and the press and the politicians. Petitions 5063 04:51:33.080 --> 04:51:35.919 and demonstrations are organized, and this adds up to a 5064 04:51:35.959 --> 04:51:41.080 continuing dialogue between the rulers and the ruled. I automatically 5065 04:51:41.119 --> 04:51:44.759 think of Uncle ted over socialization when I read those 5066 04:51:44.799 --> 04:51:49.759 two paragraphs right there. This dialogue does not depend necessarily 5067 04:51:49.799 --> 04:51:53.680 on the existence of a formally democratic political system. Even 5068 04:51:53.799 --> 04:51:56.639 in one party states where power is in the hands 5069 04:51:56.840 --> 04:52:00.000 of a few self appointed leaders I muted, But nevertheless, 5070 04:52:00.159 --> 04:52:04.200 active dialogue can take place. The higher organizations of the 5071 04:52:04.200 --> 04:52:08.040 party can discuss party decisions, and in time of relative relaxation, 5072 04:52:08.799 --> 04:52:11.799 the discussions extend to the larger numbers in the lower 5073 04:52:11.799 --> 04:52:16.680 echelons and to publications reflecting different currents. Though only within 5074 04:52:16.720 --> 04:52:19.639 the wider framework of the accepted ideology and the broad 5075 04:52:19.720 --> 04:52:24.159 policy decisions of the leadership. The value of the dialogue 5076 04:52:24.279 --> 04:52:28.279 from that takes place in non democratic states. Let me 5077 04:52:28.319 --> 04:52:30.639 repeat that again. The value of the dialogue that takes 5078 04:52:30.639 --> 04:52:36.880 place in non democratic states varies greatly. In the former Yugoslavia, 5079 04:52:37.119 --> 04:52:41.040 for example, the Communist Party contrived. Okay, so I'm assuming 5080 04:52:41.119 --> 04:52:43.680 this is these are updates that he wrote in the 5081 04:52:44.119 --> 04:52:46.159 He wrote in the new edition. I think what is it? 5082 04:52:46.200 --> 04:52:47.520 The twenty sixteen edition? 5083 04:52:49.400 --> 04:52:51.759 Yeah, I think so, twenty sixteen. 5084 04:52:51.880 --> 04:52:56.119 Yeah, yeah, yeah. In the former Yugoslavia, for example, the 5085 04:52:56.159 --> 04:53:00.400 Communist Party contrived to remain in control for decades while 5086 04:53:00.520 --> 04:53:04.080 nevertheless functioning to an increasing extent as a semi open 5087 04:53:04.200 --> 04:53:08.319 form for increasingly free, increasingly wide ranging debates on major 5088 04:53:08.319 --> 04:53:13.360 political issues that press, though unable to assert truly independent opinions, 5089 04:53:13.599 --> 04:53:17.080 at least echoed those debates. In the process, while there 5090 04:53:17.119 --> 04:53:22.080 was still no democracy, the population evolved from subjection to participation, 5091 04:53:22.680 --> 04:53:26.439 learning to scrutinize and question orders instead of simply obeying them, 5092 04:53:26.840 --> 04:53:30.200 so that they were increasingly likely to resist a coup. 5093 04:53:32.520 --> 04:53:36.880 In the Arab world, by contrast, the nominal ruling parties 5094 04:53:38.119 --> 04:53:41.639 that function from the nineteen sixties, the Arab Socialist Union 5095 04:53:41.759 --> 04:53:44.759 of Egypt and the Bath Party of Syria and Iraq 5096 04:53:45.279 --> 04:53:48.560 very soon degenerated into mere rubber stamps for the ruling 5097 04:53:48.599 --> 04:53:56.000 dictators Damal Gamal abdel Nasser, Havez al Asad and Saddam Hussein. 5098 04:53:56.959 --> 04:54:01.360 As time went on, their pretended deference to parties councils dissolved, 5099 04:54:01.720 --> 04:54:05.799 but all along they made every significant decision by themselves, 5100 04:54:06.080 --> 04:54:09.520 while the parties could only cheer them on. When the 5101 04:54:09.599 --> 04:54:13.479 question came up of whether Egypt's ASU dominated National Assembly 5102 04:54:13.479 --> 04:54:17.080 would accept now sirs withdrawal of his resignation following the 5103 04:54:17.159 --> 04:54:20.240 June nineteen sixty seven debacle known as the Sixth Day War, 5104 04:54:20.759 --> 04:54:24.080 an observer pointed out that the Assembly will jolly do 5105 04:54:24.520 --> 04:54:27.720 what it is told. You want comment on that at all? 5106 04:54:29.279 --> 04:54:30.840 I think it's safe to say that that was an 5107 04:54:30.880 --> 04:54:32.200 English observer. 5108 04:54:37.599 --> 04:54:41.080 With the Yugoslav Communist Party, the ASU and the Rolling 5109 04:54:41.119 --> 04:54:43.680 Bath Party now but a memory. The very greatest of 5110 04:54:43.759 --> 04:54:47.560 questions across the entire horizon of global politics is, of course, 5111 04:54:48.119 --> 04:54:49.680 the future of the Jianguo. 5112 04:54:52.400 --> 04:54:54.759 The Communist Party of China can help. 5113 04:54:54.720 --> 04:55:01.040 The Communist Party of China until the twoth twelve appointment 5114 04:55:01.040 --> 04:55:04.560 of Jijing Peng as Party General Secretary, President of the 5115 04:55:04.599 --> 04:55:07.720 People's Republic, President of the People's Republic of China and 5116 04:55:07.759 --> 04:55:11.159 the chairman of the Central Military Commission, significantly the most 5117 04:55:11.159 --> 04:55:14.959 powerful of all three. The party's future seemed quite predictable. 5118 04:55:15.520 --> 04:55:18.360 It was becoming a holding company for all the public 5119 04:55:18.439 --> 04:55:21.639 wealth and much of the private wealth of China, whereby 5120 04:55:21.680 --> 04:55:25.159 officials continued to receive their modest salaries, they did not 5121 04:55:25.319 --> 04:55:30.000 exceed R and B eleven three hundred and eighty five 5122 04:55:30.119 --> 04:55:34.560 or basically eighteen hundred and fifty four dollars US dollars 5123 04:55:34.560 --> 04:55:39.360 per month in twenty fifteen, even in the very highest rank. Meanwhile, 5124 04:55:39.400 --> 04:55:42.840 the party officials collected large amounts of bribes, ensuring a 5125 04:55:42.880 --> 04:55:46.119 degree of affluence even at the village level, rising to 5126 04:55:46.240 --> 04:55:50.319 sometimes very great wealth at the top. As a faithful 5127 04:55:50.360 --> 04:55:53.720 fan of Beijing's top discos, I grew accustomed to seeing 5128 04:55:54.040 --> 04:55:56.680 the young sons of party officials driving up in their 5129 04:55:56.720 --> 04:56:01.200 Ferraris and Lamborghinis. Little aside by Ludwak. 5130 04:56:01.599 --> 04:56:04.000 Yeah, a lot of those young sons of party officials 5131 04:56:04.000 --> 04:56:08.279 who were driving Ferraris and Lamborghinis are the people we 5132 04:56:08.360 --> 04:56:12.799 call political prisoners in China. Right now that g had 5133 04:56:12.840 --> 04:56:18.000 locked up for corruption. So you know that previous part 5134 04:56:18.040 --> 04:56:19.880 you read too, It's like, you know, it's an interesting 5135 04:56:19.919 --> 04:56:24.439 point because you know it kind of it speaks to 5136 04:56:24.479 --> 04:56:26.799 the fact, like we have this bias over here in 5137 04:56:26.880 --> 04:56:30.279 most of the West, I mean definitely in America that 5138 04:56:31.439 --> 04:56:35.400 representative government, you know, the people being gaining having representation 5139 04:56:36.880 --> 04:56:40.840 is synonymous with democracy. And I think that, you know, 5140 04:56:40.840 --> 04:56:43.279 if you really think about it for more than two seconds, 5141 04:56:43.439 --> 04:56:47.279 you know, we can see that there are functional democratic 5142 04:56:47.360 --> 04:56:50.360 systems like ours, like so many in Europe that don't 5143 04:56:50.360 --> 04:56:53.560 represent their people at all, that everybody's very unsatisfied with, 5144 04:56:53.680 --> 04:56:56.040 and that go their own way. But that even in 5145 04:56:56.159 --> 04:56:59.799 one party states or dictatorial states, that there are other 5146 04:57:00.000 --> 04:57:03.720 means of allowing people the dialogue with the government and 5147 04:57:03.759 --> 04:57:06.119 express their needs and their interests. There are other ways 5148 04:57:06.159 --> 04:57:09.000 to do it other than you know, mass democracy. And 5149 04:57:09.080 --> 04:57:11.959 I think you know, there have been plenty of examples 5150 04:57:12.119 --> 04:57:17.959 of governments throughout the twentieth century. Usually you know, they 5151 04:57:17.959 --> 04:57:21.400 didn't they didn't last too long, partly because we placed 5152 04:57:21.479 --> 04:57:23.720 him in the crosshairs for one reason or another. Who 5153 04:57:23.759 --> 04:57:27.479 managed to represent their people and involve them in the 5154 04:57:27.520 --> 04:57:31.040 participation of their own governments without having everybody go to 5155 04:57:31.080 --> 04:57:32.639 the polls every two or four years. 5156 04:57:34.759 --> 04:57:37.560 All right, moving on, We're going to finish up this 5157 04:57:37.639 --> 04:57:42.279 section before he breaks off into before he breaks off 5158 04:57:42.680 --> 04:57:44.560 starts breaking off down like he did in the last 5159 04:57:44.599 --> 04:57:47.200 section where he's doing revolution and he was doing and 5160 04:57:47.319 --> 04:57:50.599 we'll just finish this and I'll let you go, right. 5161 04:57:51.400 --> 04:57:54.119 But the continued transformation of the Communist Party of China 5162 04:57:54.200 --> 04:57:57.959 into a mega corporation man by the ambitious duly rewarded 5163 04:57:58.319 --> 04:58:02.279 with increasingly overt payoffs was interrupted by the decision of 5164 04:58:02.360 --> 04:58:05.479 Jijingping's high party colleagues to elevate him to a seat 5165 04:58:05.479 --> 04:58:09.799 of unprecedented power. They did so, most likely because they 5166 04:58:09.840 --> 04:58:13.360 feared that the party's further degeneration into an open, corrupt 5167 04:58:13.520 --> 04:58:17.319 enterprise would lead to an outright collapse. The problem with 5168 04:58:17.439 --> 04:58:21.599 bribes is that their distribution is very uneven, generating corrosive 5169 04:58:21.639 --> 04:58:28.799 resentments and embarrassing leaks. As a result, Jijingping is left 5170 04:58:27.880 --> 04:58:31.880 with the pretty problem of finding a substitute for both 5171 04:58:32.040 --> 04:58:36.119 a putrefying ideology and the lost and sensive of corruption, 5172 04:58:36.400 --> 04:58:40.319 with only Han nationalism ready at hand. Still, for the 5173 04:58:40.360 --> 04:58:45.560 time being, the Communist Party persists, as does subjection rather 5174 04:58:45.680 --> 04:58:46.599 than citizenship. 5175 04:58:48.880 --> 04:58:51.840 I think that's pretty insightful. I think. 5176 04:58:53.400 --> 04:58:56.000 I think that's a pretty clear description of what's happening 5177 04:58:56.080 --> 04:59:02.360 right yeah. The running dialogue between rulers and the rule 5178 04:59:02.479 --> 04:59:05.479 that precludes any coup can only exist if there is 5179 04:59:05.720 --> 04:59:09.759 large enough section of society that is sufficiently literate, well fed, 5180 04:59:09.880 --> 04:59:13.880 and secure enough to talk back. Even then, certain conditions 5181 04:59:13.880 --> 04:59:17.200 can lead to the deterioration of the relationship, and this 5182 04:59:17.240 --> 04:59:21.279 sometimes generates sufficient apathy or outright distrust of the regime 5183 04:59:21.599 --> 04:59:25.479 to make a coup possible. The events of nineteen fifty 5184 04:59:25.520 --> 04:59:28.000 eight in France were marked by a formal adherence to 5185 04:59:28.159 --> 04:59:33.200 the then constitutional rules, but were nevertheless analogous to a coup. 5186 04:59:34.919 --> 04:59:39.200 Twenty years of warfare, which had included the ignanimous defeat 5187 04:59:39.360 --> 04:59:43.360 of nineteen forty, the German occupation, the installation of the 5188 04:59:43.400 --> 04:59:48.159 authoritarian Vishi regime, and from nineteen forty six, long and 5189 04:59:48.240 --> 04:59:52.319 losing continual wars in Indo, China and Algeria, had thoroughly 5190 04:59:52.439 --> 04:59:57.680 undermined the country's democratic consensus. The continual changes of government 5191 04:59:57.720 --> 05:00:00.799 had dissipated the interest and respect of most, and left 5192 05:00:00.799 --> 05:00:05.159 the bureaucracy leaderless. Because the complex business of the ministries 5193 05:00:05.439 --> 05:00:07.880 could not be mastered by ministers who were only in 5194 05:00:07.959 --> 05:00:12.000 power for months or weeks. The French army was left 5195 05:00:12.040 --> 05:00:14.720 to fight the bitter Algerian War with little guidance from 5196 05:00:14.840 --> 05:00:19.200 Paris authorities, because more often than not, the ministries were 5197 05:00:19.240 --> 05:00:22.159 too busy fighting for their survival in the Assembly to 5198 05:00:22.240 --> 05:00:26.880 worry about the other, bloodier war. The cost of the 5199 05:00:26.919 --> 05:00:30.279 Algerian War, in both money and lives antagonized a general 5200 05:00:30.319 --> 05:00:32.959 public from both the army and the government, and many 5201 05:00:33.040 --> 05:00:35.319 of the French felt a growing fear and distrust of 5202 05:00:35.319 --> 05:00:40.720 the army's leadership, whose national sentiments and martial ideology seemed 5203 05:00:40.759 --> 05:00:43.680 alien to many of them and against the spirit of 5204 05:00:43.680 --> 05:00:49.159 the times. While the structures of political life under the 5205 05:00:49.200 --> 05:00:52.840 Fourth Republic were falling apart, Charles de gaul the grand 5206 05:00:52.880 --> 05:00:57.919 heroic figure long and simulated retirement, gradually emerged as the 5207 05:00:57.959 --> 05:01:01.680 only alternative to the chaos that threat. When the army 5208 05:01:01.680 --> 05:01:03.959 in Algeria appeared to be on the verge of truly 5209 05:01:04.080 --> 05:01:06.919 drastic action and yet another government was on the verge 5210 05:01:06.959 --> 05:01:11.080 of collapse, de Gaull was recalled. He was able to 5211 05:01:11.119 --> 05:01:15.119 impose his own terms on May twenty ninth, nineteen fifty eight, 5212 05:01:15.439 --> 05:01:18.599 when Rene Coti, the last President of the Fourth Republic, 5213 05:01:18.680 --> 05:01:22.360 called on him to form a government which was invested 5214 05:01:22.439 --> 05:01:26.319 on June first, to Gaul was given extraordinary powers to 5215 05:01:26.439 --> 05:01:28.560 role by decree for six months and to write a 5216 05:01:28.599 --> 05:01:33.200 new constitution. Under the terms of this constitution, presented for 5217 05:01:33.279 --> 05:01:37.360 consultation in mid August and approved by referendum in September, 5218 05:01:37.799 --> 05:01:41.000 elections were held in which de Gaul's newly formed Union 5219 05:01:41.080 --> 05:01:46.680 for the New Republic UNR party won a majority. On 5220 05:01:46.720 --> 05:01:49.639 December twenty first, De Gaull became the first president of 5221 05:01:49.680 --> 05:01:53.360 the Fifth Republic. He was an American style president with 5222 05:01:53.439 --> 05:01:57.599 wide executive powers, but without an American style congress to 5223 05:01:57.680 --> 05:02:02.599 restrain them. Nineteen fifty eight, France had become politically inert 5224 05:02:02.680 --> 05:02:06.400 and therefore ripe for a coup. The circumstances were unique, 5225 05:02:06.439 --> 05:02:09.439 of course, But while the political structures of all highly 5226 05:02:09.439 --> 05:02:13.240 developed countries may seem too resilient to make them suitable targets, 5227 05:02:13.560 --> 05:02:16.720 if acute enough, even temporary factors can weaken them fatally. 5228 05:02:17.840 --> 05:02:22.880 Of those temporary factors, the most common r A severe 5229 05:02:22.919 --> 05:02:27.400 and prolonged economic crisis with large scale unemployment and runaway inflation. 5230 05:02:29.119 --> 05:02:32.680 B A long and unsuccessful war, or a major defeat, 5231 05:02:32.720 --> 05:02:38.319 whether a military or diplomatic c Chronic instability under a 5232 05:02:38.400 --> 05:02:43.639 multi party system. Italy is an interesting example of an 5233 05:02:43.680 --> 05:02:49.880 economically developed, socially dynamic, but politically fragile country. Between nineteen 5234 05:02:49.959 --> 05:02:53.119 forty eight and circa nineteen ninety end of the Cold War, 5235 05:02:53.240 --> 05:02:56.560 the persistence of a large communist party that opposed Italy's 5236 05:02:56.599 --> 05:03:00.720 alignment with the West, if less vehemently after this Soviet 5237 05:03:00.720 --> 05:03:04.479 invasion of Czechoslovakia in nineteen sixty eight, forced the moderate 5238 05:03:04.560 --> 05:03:09.919 majority to keep voting for the increasingly corrupt Democrazia Christiana DC, 5239 05:03:10.759 --> 05:03:14.439 which itself ruled with the smaller but even more corrupt 5240 05:03:14.439 --> 05:03:18.720 Socialist Party. Its leader, Mattino Krazzi, would die a fugitive 5241 05:03:18.799 --> 05:03:23.639 outlaw in Tunisia. Because even the two parties did not 5242 05:03:23.680 --> 05:03:27.880 attain a parliamentary majority, every government required a broader coalition, 5243 05:03:27.959 --> 05:03:32.240 whose formation amounted to an intricate puzzle. The DC was 5244 05:03:32.279 --> 05:03:34.840 the largest party, but with only thirty percent of the votes, 5245 05:03:34.959 --> 05:03:38.639 it could not rule alone. Even with the Socialists, it 5246 05:03:38.680 --> 05:03:42.119 only reached a forty percent mark if it brought in 5247 05:03:42.200 --> 05:03:45.319 the two small left of center parties, the social Democrats 5248 05:03:45.319 --> 05:03:48.439 and the Republicans. The right of center parties, including the 5249 05:03:48.560 --> 05:03:52.759 MSI neo fascists, would not join in, but if the 5250 05:03:52.840 --> 05:03:55.279 latter were invited to join the coalition, the left would 5251 05:03:55.279 --> 05:03:58.799 break away and no government could be formed. In the end, 5252 05:03:58.880 --> 05:04:02.319 of course, were procured one way or another, mostly by 5253 05:04:02.360 --> 05:04:04.599 handing over control of parts of the vast array of 5254 05:04:04.799 --> 05:04:08.840 state owned businesses, everything from oil and gas to ice cream, 5255 05:04:09.159 --> 05:04:13.279 in exchange for parliamentary support. The votes, however, did not 5256 05:04:13.439 --> 05:04:17.319 stay bought for long and coalitions had short lives. Between 5257 05:04:17.360 --> 05:04:20.040 nineteen forty five and nineteen ninety four, there were thirty 5258 05:04:20.159 --> 05:04:23.959 three governments until the nineteen ninety four election victory of 5259 05:04:24.000 --> 05:04:29.680 the television and advertising tycoon Silvio Burlasconi, whose brand new 5260 05:04:29.720 --> 05:04:35.439 party Forts Italia was originally formed by its own employees 5261 05:04:35.479 --> 05:04:39.119 and the Milans football team fan club. Do you remember that? 5262 05:04:40.680 --> 05:04:45.880 Oh yeah, I remember, yeah, Italian politics. You know, my 5263 05:04:45.919 --> 05:04:50.799 buddy Danielle Blilli, he doesn't fall I mean, he's been 5264 05:04:50.840 --> 05:04:53.000 in America for a long time, but he still can 5265 05:04:53.080 --> 05:04:56.599 talk about it, and he knows the twentieth century pretty well. 5266 05:04:56.799 --> 05:04:59.799 And he starts describing telling me stories just you know, 5267 05:05:00.080 --> 05:05:02.240 different eras in the twentieth century, and I just get 5268 05:05:02.279 --> 05:05:04.919 lost immediately because it's just like you said, it's like 5269 05:05:04.959 --> 05:05:08.560 a new government every two years, different players, it's very 5270 05:05:08.599 --> 05:05:09.319 hard to follow. 5271 05:05:11.040 --> 05:05:14.159 And I did two hours on the years of lead 5272 05:05:14.919 --> 05:05:18.159 and it was I mean, you're you're jumping from governments 5273 05:05:18.159 --> 05:05:21.520 to government while you're while you're explaining exactly what they 5274 05:05:21.520 --> 05:05:22.200 were doing. 5275 05:05:22.279 --> 05:05:24.479 Yeah. Yeah, And all of these countries in Italy is 5276 05:05:24.479 --> 05:05:28.360 obviously such a perfect example of this. You know, they're 5277 05:05:28.479 --> 05:05:31.599 they're countries that are are battlegrounds in the Cold War, 5278 05:05:31.759 --> 05:05:35.040 and so they're facing like forces of destabilization from the 5279 05:05:35.080 --> 05:05:38.200 outside that are kind of amorphous and hard to identify, 5280 05:05:38.279 --> 05:05:40.520 but often you know, very very powerful with you want 5281 05:05:40.520 --> 05:05:43.040 to talk about you know, Gladio and the and the 5282 05:05:43.240 --> 05:05:48.000 and the Soviet control of the Communist Party there. You know, 5283 05:05:48.040 --> 05:05:49.639 that's what you've seen in a lot of these countries 5284 05:05:49.720 --> 05:05:51.919 is that a lot of the chaos and instability is 5285 05:05:52.000 --> 05:05:54.240 caused because because they're being vibe. 5286 05:05:54.000 --> 05:05:59.520 For while the DC was unable to modernize Italy's increasingly 5287 05:05:59.560 --> 05:06:04.560 outdated state institutions, it nevertheless presided over decades of economic growth. 5288 05:06:05.560 --> 05:06:08.919 The combination of communists and Catholic anti capitalism made it 5289 05:06:08.959 --> 05:06:13.680 impossible to introduce either American style higher and fire labor 5290 05:06:13.720 --> 05:06:20.159 flexibility or German style economic discipline enforced by sophisticated trade unionists, 5291 05:06:20.279 --> 05:06:23.599 but the DC had its own remedy. Every time wage 5292 05:06:23.680 --> 05:06:26.560 rates were pushed too high, it devalued the Lira to 5293 05:06:26.639 --> 05:06:32.919 restore the competitiveness of Italian exports. Equally, the inability to 5294 05:06:32.959 --> 05:06:36.040 make the state efficient was offset by the lax enforcement 5295 05:06:36.080 --> 05:06:41.119 of tax collection. Thus Italian entrepreneurs, ill served by an 5296 05:06:41.159 --> 05:06:44.159 inefficient state, only had to pretend that they were paying 5297 05:06:44.240 --> 05:06:48.080 tax paying their saxes first one and then the other. 5298 05:06:48.159 --> 05:06:51.200 Of these practices came to an end once Italy adopted 5299 05:06:51.200 --> 05:06:55.080 the common European currency, the Euro, in nineteen ninety nine, 5300 05:06:55.080 --> 05:06:59.880 prohibiting competitive devaluations, and since then its economy has stagnated, 5301 05:07:00.119 --> 05:07:05.919 with little or no growth and chronically high unemployment. Politically, 5302 05:07:05.919 --> 05:07:10.319 on the other hand, Berlusconi's combination of a economic power 5303 05:07:10.400 --> 05:07:15.200 his enterprises could offer very many jobs, consultancies and contracts, 5304 05:07:15.720 --> 05:07:19.400 b media influence through the control of publishing houses, newspapers, 5305 05:07:19.439 --> 05:07:23.959 magazines and three television channels, and c of course, electoral 5306 05:07:24.000 --> 05:07:26.159 power through the votes he won by vigorous and well 5307 05:07:26.279 --> 05:07:31.479 organized campaigning ensured his political preponderance from nineteen ninety four 5308 05:07:31.680 --> 05:07:36.279 until twenty eleven, even went out of office as of 5309 05:07:36.360 --> 05:07:40.560 twenty fifteen, the government of Matteo Renzi is sustained by 5310 05:07:40.599 --> 05:07:44.439 a parliamentary majority that still requires Berlusconi's votes. 5311 05:07:45.200 --> 05:07:47.639 You know, it's interesting that it looks like you're about 5312 05:07:47.639 --> 05:07:48.479 to at the end of a section. 5313 05:07:48.520 --> 05:07:51.759 I'll let you get there, yeah, yeah, and then we'll 5314 05:07:51.799 --> 05:07:56.560 be done. We'll you can close this out. Berlusconi's leading 5315 05:07:56.639 --> 05:07:59.560 role in Italy's public life over more than twenty years, 5316 05:07:59.639 --> 05:08:02.639 hiss co existed with the most blatant conflicts of interest. 5317 05:08:02.959 --> 05:08:06.240 He was operating state regulated businesses, a long series of 5318 05:08:06.319 --> 05:08:10.000 trials for tax evasion and vote buying, and numerous personal 5319 05:08:10.040 --> 05:08:12.840 scandals arising from his delight and cavorting with young and 5320 05:08:13.000 --> 05:08:17.479 very young or very young prostitutes. Hence, his prominence in 5321 05:08:17.520 --> 05:08:21.319 Italian politics is quite enough to describe the country's political 5322 05:08:21.479 --> 05:08:24.439 order as fragile. He could not have survived in a 5323 05:08:24.479 --> 05:08:28.000 fully functioning democracy that requires of its leader some semblance 5324 05:08:28.040 --> 05:08:32.040 of discretion in their personal conduct and the careful concealment 5325 05:08:32.319 --> 05:08:34.360 of significant conflicts of interest. 5326 05:08:35.479 --> 05:08:37.479 Yeah, I was going to say, in the case of 5327 05:08:37.560 --> 05:08:42.040 de gaul and even Berlusconi, I think you can speak 5328 05:08:42.080 --> 05:08:44.680 of in the same way you have two You had 5329 05:08:44.680 --> 05:08:48.319 two countries where to go back to Max Weber's terms, 5330 05:08:48.360 --> 05:08:52.200 where that legal rational authority system is breaking down or 5331 05:08:52.240 --> 05:08:57.520 becoming decrepit and having to turn back to a charismatic 5332 05:08:57.639 --> 05:09:00.599 leader who can come in and actually be the organizing 5333 05:09:00.599 --> 05:09:04.119 principle for the state because you know, the machinery itself 5334 05:09:04.240 --> 05:09:06.720 is too gummed up. And I think both of those, 5335 05:09:06.759 --> 05:09:09.119 I mean, especially de gaul, you know, where they were 5336 05:09:09.200 --> 05:09:11.360 very aware of the fact that they were they were 5337 05:09:11.400 --> 05:09:15.279 reaching this this point of crisis in the in the government, 5338 05:09:15.400 --> 05:09:18.040 and they they turned to him almost in a you know, 5339 05:09:18.119 --> 05:09:21.080 periclean sort of Cincinnatus type type of way, to be 5340 05:09:21.200 --> 05:09:23.840 the guy who has the weight, who can come in 5341 05:09:23.959 --> 05:09:27.639 and and be that guy. And Berlisconi wasn't quite that direct, 5342 05:09:27.720 --> 05:09:30.040 but you know, just the fact that he stayed in 5343 05:09:30.119 --> 05:09:32.159 power as long as he did in a system that 5344 05:09:32.200 --> 05:09:36.159 had previously been so unstable and just changing out all 5345 05:09:36.200 --> 05:09:37.959 the time, it kind of shows you that he played 5346 05:09:37.959 --> 05:09:42.200 that role as well. You know, you see that very 5347 05:09:42.200 --> 05:09:43.840 often where I mean you see that in a person 5348 05:09:43.919 --> 05:09:47.439 like Putin right for example. You know, people in the 5349 05:09:47.560 --> 05:09:50.639 United States who watch regime media, you know, often have 5350 05:09:50.799 --> 05:09:54.159 this idea of Putin and all dictators really and even 5351 05:09:54.240 --> 05:09:56.840 like historical monarchs or whatever. But they have this idea 5352 05:09:56.880 --> 05:09:59.880 that you know, these are like god emperors who can 5353 05:10:00.279 --> 05:10:04.119 just you know, order the general top generals of the 5354 05:10:04.240 --> 05:10:06.720 army to be tortured and executed with their families and 5355 05:10:06.759 --> 05:10:09.720 nothing will happen because they're in charge. And obviously that's 5356 05:10:09.919 --> 05:10:12.720 that's never been reality. It's not reality. You look at 5357 05:10:12.720 --> 05:10:15.599 somebody like Putin. Why is Putin there? Putin is there 5358 05:10:15.720 --> 05:10:20.799 because he's the only person in Russia who all the 5359 05:10:20.880 --> 05:10:25.599 different power centers, all the different interest groups that have 5360 05:10:25.680 --> 05:10:30.279 and can wield organize power. He's the only person that 5361 05:10:30.319 --> 05:10:34.279 they actually trust to mediate and arbitrate their you know, 5362 05:10:34.400 --> 05:10:37.560 their conflicts of interests and their disputes, and they know 5363 05:10:37.639 --> 05:10:39.959 that if they get rid of that guy, you know, 5364 05:10:40.040 --> 05:10:42.040 maybe I want to take his place. You know, I'm 5365 05:10:42.040 --> 05:10:44.159 from this interest group or that power center, and I 5366 05:10:44.159 --> 05:10:45.840 want to be Putin. I want to take his place. 5367 05:10:45.880 --> 05:10:48.639 But I know that if I get up there, I'm 5368 05:10:48.639 --> 05:10:50.319 not going to have the buy in of all of 5369 05:10:50.319 --> 05:10:52.439 these people, and my power is not going to last. 5370 05:10:52.479 --> 05:10:55.959 And so you know, that's that's the source of like 5371 05:10:56.119 --> 05:10:59.000 real sustainable power in a person like that, doesn't you know, 5372 05:10:59.040 --> 05:11:01.439 you can you can extra size, all the force you want, 5373 05:11:03.680 --> 05:11:07.599 but unless you're well, I wouldn't even say in less 5374 05:11:07.599 --> 05:11:09.279 because I was going to cite Stalin, but that's not 5375 05:11:09.360 --> 05:11:11.880 even really true, Like you can exercise all the force 5376 05:11:11.959 --> 05:11:14.759 you want if you're not if you're not able to 5377 05:11:14.880 --> 05:11:18.520 occupy that central position as the one that's recognized as 5378 05:11:18.520 --> 05:11:20.959 like if we get rid of that person, then we're 5379 05:11:21.000 --> 05:11:23.560 all going to fall into chaos. Then you're not going 5380 05:11:23.599 --> 05:11:24.639 to sustain your power. 5381 05:11:27.400 --> 05:11:31.319 Well, let me conclude by asking you a question. So, 5382 05:11:32.240 --> 05:11:35.959 say there is this we're looking at an election this year, 5383 05:11:36.720 --> 05:11:44.479 and one side has this plan, let's call it Project 5384 05:11:44.479 --> 05:11:50.919 twenty twenty five, and anyone who someone may have looked 5385 05:11:50.959 --> 05:11:53.040 at it and been like, huh, this looks like it 5386 05:11:53.080 --> 05:11:59.040 wants to dismantle the administrative state with dismantling the administrative 5387 05:11:59.080 --> 05:12:02.680 state in the United States and giving power back to 5388 05:12:03.439 --> 05:12:08.319 the three branches of government and basically like return even 5389 05:12:08.360 --> 05:12:13.119 returning the power of the presidency to FDR levels. Would 5390 05:12:13.119 --> 05:12:14.159 that be considered a coup? 5391 05:12:15.400 --> 05:12:20.000 I think Luke Walcke would say no, But the uh, 5392 05:12:21.599 --> 05:12:26.360 sort of the level of almost extraord the level of 5393 05:12:26.360 --> 05:12:30.599 extraordinary action that would really be necessary to carry that out, 5394 05:12:31.560 --> 05:12:35.200 would would meet the threshold, you know what I mean, Like, 5395 05:12:35.240 --> 05:12:37.840 it's something that would face so much resistance that you 5396 05:12:37.880 --> 05:12:42.200 would have to be willing to override you know, technical 5397 05:12:42.360 --> 05:12:45.560 rules in legal boundaries in order to carry it out. 5398 05:12:46.000 --> 05:12:48.680 And so in that sense, you know, I suppose you 5399 05:12:48.680 --> 05:12:50.720 could call it a coup. You know, it's an illegal 5400 05:12:50.759 --> 05:12:54.400 seizure of power, illegal exercise of power for the purpose 5401 05:12:54.439 --> 05:13:00.000 of transferring the center of gravity and the government from 5402 05:13:00.119 --> 05:13:01.959 from one place to another. So I guess you could 5403 05:13:02.000 --> 05:13:06.840 maybe say that cool, and by saying that, I'm totally 5404 05:13:06.880 --> 05:13:08.959 okay with it and they should do it, by the way. 5405 05:13:09.200 --> 05:13:13.240 Yeah, I'm one hundred percent. I mean, of course, you 5406 05:13:13.279 --> 05:13:15.119 can be so black pilled to the point where it's 5407 05:13:15.119 --> 05:13:17.919 just like, just get some of it done, please. I mean, 5408 05:13:17.959 --> 05:13:20.599 I'll be happy with some of it. But you know, really, 5409 05:13:21.840 --> 05:13:24.000 I think, as Jarvin has said over and over again, 5410 05:13:25.799 --> 05:13:27.840 if you're going to cross the rubicon, you can't wait 5411 05:13:27.919 --> 05:13:31.240 on the other side, and you can't you can't you 5412 05:13:31.279 --> 05:13:33.400 can't wait in the water on the other side. And 5413 05:13:33.439 --> 05:13:36.240 if you do climb on to the shore, you can't 5414 05:13:36.400 --> 05:13:39.720 set up camp there. You have to keep going. And 5415 05:13:39.959 --> 05:13:42.319 the only way you're going to dismantle. The administrative statu 5416 05:13:42.360 --> 05:13:43.720 is to keep going, so. 5417 05:13:44.439 --> 05:13:46.479 Never take the black pill. Despair is a sin. 5418 05:13:47.319 --> 05:13:49.959 Oh yeah, man, So everybody where they can find your work. 5419 05:13:51.319 --> 05:13:54.360 I have a podcast, the Martin Made Podcast if you 5420 05:13:55.000 --> 05:13:59.119 if you like really long form, deep dive historical podcast, 5421 05:13:59.200 --> 05:14:01.599 then that's the one for you. I do another one 5422 05:14:01.639 --> 05:14:04.919 with my friend Jocko Willink called The Unraveling where we 5423 05:14:05.000 --> 05:14:08.639 talk more about contemporary and it's sort of more recent 5424 05:14:08.720 --> 05:14:11.639 historical stuff, twentieth century things and stuff like that. And 5425 05:14:12.119 --> 05:14:14.439 I've got a substack. If you really really like those things, 5426 05:14:14.479 --> 05:14:18.959 you can come support me at Martyrmade at substack dot com. 5427 05:14:19.319 --> 05:14:20.200 I appreciate it. 5428 05:14:20.799 --> 05:14:21.840 Always good Pete. 5429 05:14:22.479 --> 05:14:23.520 Keep pushing boundaries. 5430 05:14:24.240 --> 05:14:24.759 Later, brother,