WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.160 --> 00:00:04.480 Now throughout history, when people get wood, they'll think of Trojans, 2 00:00:07.480 --> 00:00:11.599 look at them sleeping like little angels, spare. 3 00:00:11.359 --> 00:00:16.960 No one, and Iraq everywhere like. 4 00:00:17.039 --> 00:00:19.280 Such as I'm supposed to be the franchise player, and 5 00:00:19.320 --> 00:00:25.239 we in here talking about practice, ladies and gentlemen. 6 00:00:26.160 --> 00:00:30.359 We got them. 7 00:00:30.559 --> 00:00:32.479 Our next door neighbors are foreign countries. 8 00:00:32.840 --> 00:00:35.719 I call upon all nations to do everything they can 9 00:00:36.520 --> 00:00:38.240 to stop these terrorsts killing. 10 00:00:40.000 --> 00:00:42.679 Thank you. Now watch his drive. 11 00:00:43.880 --> 00:00:46.640 Hey everybody, and welcome to remember Shuffle. My name is 12 00:00:46.679 --> 00:00:49.399 Ben with me is always my co host Trnando March. 13 00:00:49.640 --> 00:00:51.000 We can't break Zeusi's jaw. 14 00:00:52.960 --> 00:00:56.280 Today, for the first time ever on the main feed, 15 00:00:56.560 --> 00:00:59.920 we are not talking about something from the two thousands, 16 00:01:00.159 --> 00:01:02.960 twenty something years ago. We are taking part in the 17 00:01:02.960 --> 00:01:08.640 cultural zeitgeist to discuss this summer's Christopher Nolan blockbuster, The Odyssey. 18 00:01:09.400 --> 00:01:10.959 Why are we doing this, Tordano. 19 00:01:10.799 --> 00:01:14.239 Well, you have a PhD in classics, You've taught courses 20 00:01:14.280 --> 00:01:16.760 on The Odyssey. It just seemed like a wasted opportunity 21 00:01:16.959 --> 00:01:19.079 for the biggest movie of the year to come out 22 00:01:19.120 --> 00:01:21.799 and not have you talk about it. So sorry, we're 23 00:01:21.799 --> 00:01:24.159 breaking format a little bit here. I get to hear 24 00:01:24.159 --> 00:01:26.359 Ben talk about the Odyssey all the time and it's 25 00:01:26.519 --> 00:01:29.879 always very fascinating, and I thought, you know, why not, 26 00:01:30.000 --> 00:01:32.640 let's do it and it'll be good opportunity to drive 27 00:01:32.680 --> 00:01:35.640 people towards the Troy episode of our podcast as well. 28 00:01:35.879 --> 00:01:38.040 Yeah, a good one behind the Patreon. Yeah, and the 29 00:01:38.120 --> 00:01:41.359 movie is good. It's great even I fucking loved it. 30 00:01:41.560 --> 00:01:43.519 I don't think it is a perfect film, but it 31 00:01:43.640 --> 00:01:47.719 is an exceptional film. Eat shit right wing CHUD posters 32 00:01:47.760 --> 00:01:51.359 who were mad about this movie weeks months before it 33 00:01:51.439 --> 00:01:54.000 came out. I don't think I can remember a film 34 00:01:54.079 --> 00:01:57.680 that had this much discourse around it before it even 35 00:01:57.760 --> 00:01:59.879 came out. So now we finally get to talk about 36 00:01:59.879 --> 00:02:02.840 it when there's something to talk about. Also, each shit me, 37 00:02:03.200 --> 00:02:05.879 I believe. I said on one of our recordings that 38 00:02:06.000 --> 00:02:08.360 I predicted it would be mid, and it is so 39 00:02:08.479 --> 00:02:11.599 much better than Mid. I'm eating Crow. It's incredible. 40 00:02:11.759 --> 00:02:14.879 I liked it. I thought it was not a perfect movie. 41 00:02:14.919 --> 00:02:17.960 There was some things that I thought were annoying and 42 00:02:18.000 --> 00:02:20.400 he was weird about for some reason, Like one, I 43 00:02:20.439 --> 00:02:23.000 thought the movie was very didactic. There are lines in 44 00:02:23.000 --> 00:02:25.680 this movie where people will say, like our age of 45 00:02:25.759 --> 00:02:31.159 Bronze is ending or so, it's true our civilization is collapsing. 46 00:02:33.240 --> 00:02:35.560 And I think he's just like really eager to tell 47 00:02:35.560 --> 00:02:38.159 you about the Sea People's And like the first time 48 00:02:38.199 --> 00:02:39.960 I heard Sea People's I was like, oh, you know, 49 00:02:40.120 --> 00:02:42.560 cool little reference there. But by the twentieth time, I'm like, 50 00:02:42.680 --> 00:02:45.199 this is probably not something that was in the original text. 51 00:02:45.280 --> 00:02:47.680 And this is Kris Nolan's own take on it. This 52 00:02:47.759 --> 00:02:49.240 is what he's adding to it. And I thought that 53 00:02:49.400 --> 00:02:51.560 in general it was the weakest, but you know, he 54 00:02:51.599 --> 00:02:54.000 took a three thousand year old story and I like 55 00:02:54.280 --> 00:02:56.120 what he did with it. I thought it was certainly 56 00:02:56.120 --> 00:02:58.000 the best movie about the Odyssey, and it's a much 57 00:02:58.000 --> 00:02:59.479 better movie than Troy mm hmm. 58 00:03:00.039 --> 00:03:03.360 People's not only are they not in the Homeric poems, 59 00:03:03.520 --> 00:03:06.439 they're not even in Bronze Age Greece. That turn of 60 00:03:06.479 --> 00:03:09.840 phrase comes from an Egyptian inscription, if I recall correctly. 61 00:03:10.599 --> 00:03:12.879 But yes, he wants to show off that he knows 62 00:03:12.919 --> 00:03:15.520 about the Bronze Age collapse and he's going to incorporate 63 00:03:15.560 --> 00:03:17.400 it into his Bronze Age story. 64 00:03:17.520 --> 00:03:19.879 Chris Nolan, he's the smartest guy at the frat House. 65 00:03:21.840 --> 00:03:24.560 We've done what like three episodes on him at this point, 66 00:03:24.680 --> 00:03:26.680 probably the most important director of the two thousands. 67 00:03:26.840 --> 00:03:29.919 Yeah, and I think if there's any place for a 68 00:03:30.039 --> 00:03:34.719 story with a little bit of didacticism, it's probably the Odyssey. 69 00:03:35.199 --> 00:03:38.240 It has a lot of folk tale elements to it, 70 00:03:38.280 --> 00:03:40.919 as we'll get into it, and generally the purpose of 71 00:03:40.919 --> 00:03:44.240 a folktale is to instill some kind of moral lesson. 72 00:03:44.439 --> 00:03:47.319 There's a prohibition, hey, don't do that thing, and then 73 00:03:47.360 --> 00:03:51.479 you do the thing, and then there's consequences. Like that's didacticism, 74 00:03:51.879 --> 00:03:54.759 but he's taken it to another level. He's scaled it up. 75 00:03:54.879 --> 00:03:57.120 I mean, I'm just gonna say it up. Top Odysseus 76 00:03:57.159 --> 00:03:59.960 is Oppenheimer, The Trojan Horse is the atomic Bob. 77 00:04:00.280 --> 00:04:03.719 Okay, Yeah, maybe I didn't mean didacticism for all that, 78 00:04:03.759 --> 00:04:08.000 but like expository with the Bronze age collapse happening, Yeah, 79 00:04:08.000 --> 00:04:10.080 come on, man, like I can see you writing this. 80 00:04:10.520 --> 00:04:14.560 Yeah, another similar bit where it's meant to be both didactic, 81 00:04:14.599 --> 00:04:17.279 but it's name dropped too much. How many fucking times 82 00:04:17.279 --> 00:04:18.759 do we hear about Zeus's law? 83 00:04:19.120 --> 00:04:21.800 You know, I will say the first time I heard it, 84 00:04:21.839 --> 00:04:23.439 I'm like, I can't wait to fucking figure out with 85 00:04:23.519 --> 00:04:24.800 Zeus's Law all about dude. 86 00:04:24.839 --> 00:04:26.800 You should have known from the Troy episode we did 87 00:04:26.800 --> 00:04:29.000 it's about Zania guess host friendship. 88 00:04:29.079 --> 00:04:31.040 Yeah, that's true. I didn't remember that detail. 89 00:04:31.240 --> 00:04:34.800 But yes, let's get into it. So I'll tell you 90 00:04:34.839 --> 00:04:38.160 a little bit of quick background to the Homeric poems 91 00:04:38.360 --> 00:04:40.480 the Iliot in the Odyssey. We did do this on 92 00:04:40.519 --> 00:04:43.040 our Troy episode. So if you're a Patreon listener who 93 00:04:43.079 --> 00:04:45.680 has already heard this, maybe skip ahead. If you're not 94 00:04:45.720 --> 00:04:49.319 on the Patreon, First off, how dare you? Second off, 95 00:04:49.360 --> 00:04:51.120 it's fine, We're gonna get right to it. These are 96 00:04:51.120 --> 00:04:53.240 the first two works of Greek literature that we have 97 00:04:53.279 --> 00:04:57.439 written down. They're ascribed to someone named Homer, and I 98 00:04:57.480 --> 00:05:01.519 got bad news. Homer was not real. The Greeks thought 99 00:05:01.600 --> 00:05:05.199 about who he was and where he came from and 100 00:05:05.399 --> 00:05:08.040 what his life was like because he wasn't fucking real. 101 00:05:08.240 --> 00:05:12.439 They were a bunch of anonymous bards walking around dark 102 00:05:12.480 --> 00:05:16.680 age Greece singing these songs. And eventually, when the Greeks 103 00:05:16.680 --> 00:05:21.040 develop their second writing system, the Greek alphabet, they compile 104 00:05:21.399 --> 00:05:27.639 these texts into a form probably roughly resembling the forms 105 00:05:27.639 --> 00:05:30.240 that we have them. Now, that's being a little simplistic. 106 00:05:30.279 --> 00:05:33.160 They were probably fully codified in the library at Alexandria 107 00:05:33.199 --> 00:05:35.519 way later. But this is when they get written down 108 00:05:35.720 --> 00:05:39.360 to put some time periods on Greek history. There are 109 00:05:39.360 --> 00:05:41.160 three time periods that we're dealing with. You had the 110 00:05:41.160 --> 00:05:44.800 Greek Bronze Age, which runs throughout most of the second 111 00:05:44.879 --> 00:05:49.399 millennium BCE, has some advanced civilizations, the Minoans and the Maceonians, 112 00:05:49.600 --> 00:05:52.000 which is not what they call themselves, is what archaeologists 113 00:05:52.040 --> 00:05:56.079 called them. They develop, writing, monumental architecture, all that stuff. 114 00:05:56.199 --> 00:05:58.959 This is where the historic city of Troy was. It 115 00:05:59.000 --> 00:06:02.319 does get burned down and around the year eleven seventy 116 00:06:02.360 --> 00:06:07.120 seven BCE ish a whole bunch of these societies just collapse. 117 00:06:07.360 --> 00:06:11.000 It's really bad in Greece. Where population collapses, long term 118 00:06:11.040 --> 00:06:16.360 trade collapses, writing is forgotten, and monumental architecture disappears. So 119 00:06:16.480 --> 00:06:20.040 this Bronze Age is when the story is meant hypothetically 120 00:06:20.120 --> 00:06:23.560 to have taken place. After that, from about one thousand 121 00:06:23.639 --> 00:06:26.959 to seven fifty BCE is the Greek Dark Ages. Think 122 00:06:27.279 --> 00:06:30.959 small towns run by your local chief men, the basileus, 123 00:06:31.360 --> 00:06:38.560 no formalized kind of law codes, very small populations, no writing, whatsoever. 124 00:06:38.920 --> 00:06:42.519 This is when the poems start to be composed, and 125 00:06:42.560 --> 00:06:45.639 they're highly episodic. You can drop like, oh, what's the 126 00:06:45.680 --> 00:06:49.079 story that really hits Oh, I know, the story of 127 00:06:49.160 --> 00:06:52.040 Helen describing all the Greek heroes from the walls of Troy, 128 00:06:52.199 --> 00:06:55.879 the Typoscopeia. And then around seven to fifty BC, we're 129 00:06:55.920 --> 00:06:59.040 in the Greek Archaic Age. Population starts to rise again. 130 00:06:59.439 --> 00:07:02.160 The Greeks are living in the cities that will eventually 131 00:07:02.160 --> 00:07:04.959 become the city state the Polists. And this is when 132 00:07:04.959 --> 00:07:08.720 the texts are written down. So that middle layer, the 133 00:07:08.720 --> 00:07:12.959 Greek Dark Ages, is the world that the poems as 134 00:07:12.959 --> 00:07:15.920 we have them most reflect. 135 00:07:15.959 --> 00:07:18.040 Right, even though they're based in an earlier time. And 136 00:07:18.079 --> 00:07:20.519 you said that there's probably not like an actual blind 137 00:07:20.560 --> 00:07:23.079 poet named Homer who put all this together. But there 138 00:07:23.079 --> 00:07:26.360 are two schools of thought on how they're written, is 139 00:07:26.439 --> 00:07:29.279 what you mentioned, Like the analyst and the Unitarian schools. 140 00:07:29.439 --> 00:07:32.120 Yes, as I said, you've got two schools thought. You 141 00:07:32.160 --> 00:07:35.839 got your Analysts, you got your Unitarians. The Unitarians see 142 00:07:35.879 --> 00:07:39.639 one hand at play, if not in the composition, then 143 00:07:39.680 --> 00:07:44.160 at least in the final assembly of the product. Because 144 00:07:44.240 --> 00:07:47.959 the works just hang together too perfectly. 145 00:07:47.639 --> 00:07:50.680 And that would be Homer, I guess, hypothetically hypothetic write it, 146 00:07:50.720 --> 00:07:51.800 but he kind of put it together. 147 00:07:52.000 --> 00:07:55.399 Yeah, And the analysts got their name from analyzing each 148 00:07:55.560 --> 00:07:58.279 discrete little bit, and they say, oh, a poet added 149 00:07:58.319 --> 00:08:00.680 something here, and added something there, and added something there. 150 00:08:00.759 --> 00:08:04.560 It's much more haphazard with all of the various hands 151 00:08:04.639 --> 00:08:05.879 putting this thing together. 152 00:08:06.040 --> 00:08:08.120 And you've said that they're almost certainly not written by 153 00:08:08.199 --> 00:08:09.759 the same guy the two poems. 154 00:08:10.040 --> 00:08:14.560 No, and the person who put together the Odyssey clearly 155 00:08:14.680 --> 00:08:17.839 knew the Iliad. We know that this is a true sequel, 156 00:08:17.879 --> 00:08:21.160 that one came out after the author. Okay, because the 157 00:08:21.199 --> 00:08:25.519 Odyssey has all of these embedded narrations of what happened before. 158 00:08:25.680 --> 00:08:29.480 So the Trojan Horse episode is not in the Iliad, 159 00:08:29.519 --> 00:08:32.080 which covers I don't know, a few dozen days on 160 00:08:32.159 --> 00:08:34.200 the beach in front of the plains of Troy, but 161 00:08:34.360 --> 00:08:39.120 is told through flashback by Helen at Sparta two Telemachus 162 00:08:39.159 --> 00:08:44.480 in the Odyssey. Okay, but interestingly, not one single episode 163 00:08:44.559 --> 00:08:49.080 from the Iliad is retold a second time in the Odyssey. 164 00:08:49.360 --> 00:08:53.279 So presumably whoever's putting the Odyssey together knew their Iliad 165 00:08:53.320 --> 00:08:55.960 really really well. It didn't want to retread the same ground. 166 00:08:56.159 --> 00:08:59.480 There's no Hector Achilles fight, for instance, but we do 167 00:08:59.480 --> 00:09:02.480 see a kill a funeral told through flashback. Right. 168 00:09:02.759 --> 00:09:05.360 Is there any fan service or like references the other 169 00:09:05.399 --> 00:09:09.360 way where somebody in the Iliad is like winking as 170 00:09:09.399 --> 00:09:13.320 if aware that the Odyssey will happen after this or no, no, 171 00:09:13.519 --> 00:09:15.600 but it does go the other way obviously. 172 00:09:15.279 --> 00:09:18.840 Yeah, so yes, this oral tradition is codified much later 173 00:09:19.159 --> 00:09:22.519 we get the Trojan Horse, and the tone between the 174 00:09:22.519 --> 00:09:27.840 Iliad and Odyssey is very, very different. Where Achilles is 175 00:09:28.080 --> 00:09:32.080 about becoming alienated from his society in a lot of ways, 176 00:09:32.159 --> 00:09:36.360 it's about his shame and withdrawal, and the Odyssey book 177 00:09:36.840 --> 00:09:41.080 less of the movie, is a story about reintegration into society. 178 00:09:41.200 --> 00:09:44.120 It's about his epic quest to come back to be 179 00:09:44.279 --> 00:09:48.039 the king, to be the husband. It's the opposite direction 180 00:09:48.120 --> 00:09:52.279 that Achilles is taking. Achilles is withdrawing and alienating. Odysseus 181 00:09:52.399 --> 00:09:55.440 is trying to get home and eventually succeeds in getting home. 182 00:09:55.600 --> 00:09:58.240 There's not a lot of humor in the Odyssey, but 183 00:09:58.279 --> 00:10:00.960 people have described it as comic in the same way 184 00:10:01.000 --> 00:10:04.039 that a Shakespearean comedy almost always ends with the marriage, 185 00:10:04.039 --> 00:10:07.639 because that's meant to be like harmony, the family society whatever. 186 00:10:07.799 --> 00:10:11.600 Like Odyssease and Penelope have a renewal of vow ceremony 187 00:10:11.759 --> 00:10:14.320 type shit. At the end of the Odyssey, you. 188 00:10:14.279 --> 00:10:15.399 Did mention that Zeus's law. 189 00:10:15.879 --> 00:10:19.879 Yes, Zeus's law. The Greek word is zenia x nia, 190 00:10:20.240 --> 00:10:25.519 and it is the proper comportment between guests and hosts. 191 00:10:26.320 --> 00:10:30.840 Very significant idea in the Homeric works. Zeus has all 192 00:10:30.879 --> 00:10:33.480 of these epithets, these nicknames for the things that he 193 00:10:33.559 --> 00:10:36.360 is god of, and one of them is Zeus Senios, 194 00:10:36.480 --> 00:10:39.320 Zeus of the guest host friendship. The idea is that 195 00:10:39.679 --> 00:10:44.559 there are reciprocal duties between guests and hosts, so you know, 196 00:10:44.840 --> 00:10:47.480 don't go murdering each other. You are meant to feed 197 00:10:47.759 --> 00:10:50.679 and provide for your travelers, and travelers are expected to 198 00:10:50.720 --> 00:10:53.159 provide you with stories from the road. You can see 199 00:10:53.159 --> 00:10:55.799 in a pre modern dark Age society, this is a 200 00:10:55.840 --> 00:10:59.279 way to keep everyone safe, everyone healthy. I think for 201 00:10:59.440 --> 00:11:02.559 the Eriskristocrats, who would be the people who travel the most, 202 00:11:02.639 --> 00:11:05.399 it helps them maintain their kind of networks and support 203 00:11:05.399 --> 00:11:07.840 one another. And it's so serious in the world of 204 00:11:07.840 --> 00:11:10.720 the poem that there's a scene in the Iliad when 205 00:11:10.840 --> 00:11:14.639 a Trojan and a Nikian adnean An argive they're not 206 00:11:14.679 --> 00:11:17.480 called Greeks yet. They're fighting on the plains of Troy, 207 00:11:17.799 --> 00:11:22.159 and they realize that their grandfathers or their ancestors had 208 00:11:22.200 --> 00:11:26.080 previously been host and guests to one another, and so 209 00:11:26.200 --> 00:11:28.840 they stop fighting. They say they'll avoid one another, and 210 00:11:28.879 --> 00:11:32.080 they exchange gifts in the midst of the battle. Very 211 00:11:32.120 --> 00:11:35.080 important holy law for these Homeric Greeks. 212 00:11:35.320 --> 00:11:37.879 It's interesting that you mentioned, yeah, that the Odyssey is 213 00:11:37.919 --> 00:11:40.320 like more of a reflection of Dark Age culture than 214 00:11:40.360 --> 00:11:42.720 it is Bronze Age culture, because this movie kind of 215 00:11:42.759 --> 00:11:45.639 takes the opposite tact, where it's saying, like, see, what 216 00:11:45.799 --> 00:11:48.480 made the Bronze Age so special is that they had 217 00:11:48.679 --> 00:11:52.399 hospitality and Zeus's law, Right, that's what makes it the 218 00:11:52.480 --> 00:11:54.279 Dark Age, that that's coming so bad as we got 219 00:11:54.360 --> 00:11:56.879 rid of Zeus's law, right, we broke Zeus's law. Whereas 220 00:11:56.879 --> 00:11:59.759 you're saying that the respect for Zeus's law in this 221 00:12:00.320 --> 00:12:02.679 is probably more of a reflection of the Dark Age, 222 00:12:02.720 --> 00:12:04.879 like the period in which these stories were being told, 223 00:12:05.039 --> 00:12:07.279 rather than when the period that it's set during. 224 00:12:07.480 --> 00:12:07.879 Correct. 225 00:12:08.000 --> 00:12:11.559 Yes, take that. Christopher Nolan And Yeah, just one more 226 00:12:11.600 --> 00:12:13.000 point from Troy that I wanted to bring up again 227 00:12:13.080 --> 00:12:15.360 is that you've mentioned that half of all Greek writing 228 00:12:15.360 --> 00:12:18.000 that we found anywhere in the world is Homer. Fifty 229 00:12:18.000 --> 00:12:21.000 percent Homer recopied, and then the other fifty percent is 230 00:12:21.080 --> 00:12:24.080 like everything else, all other plays, all other histories, all 231 00:12:24.080 --> 00:12:28.720 other shopping lists and debt records. They loved this fucking story. 232 00:12:29.000 --> 00:12:30.000 This was like their Bible. 233 00:12:30.279 --> 00:12:33.519 Yeah, Alexander slept with it under his pillow. You learn 234 00:12:33.600 --> 00:12:37.039 to write by recopying it. You memorized it in school. 235 00:12:37.080 --> 00:12:39.799 It was a school text. It is truly foundational. If 236 00:12:39.799 --> 00:12:42.200 there's one thing to read to understand the ancient Greeks, 237 00:12:42.240 --> 00:12:45.480 it is Homer. So let's, as we usually do with 238 00:12:45.600 --> 00:12:49.080 our movie episodes, let's discuss the characters before we do 239 00:12:49.120 --> 00:12:51.840 a plot summary, starting with the man of the hour himself, 240 00:12:51.840 --> 00:12:59.279 Odysseus played by Matt Damon, Boston's favorite son. First, you 241 00:12:59.320 --> 00:13:01.919 gonna learn about Socrates. You're gonna be walking around saying 242 00:13:01.960 --> 00:13:03.919 all I know is that I know nothing. Then you're 243 00:13:03.919 --> 00:13:06.080 gonna come at me next week with Plato talking about 244 00:13:06.080 --> 00:13:07.360 the ideas of the forms. 245 00:13:07.679 --> 00:13:09.879 You like figs, how do you like them? Figs. 246 00:13:10.639 --> 00:13:13.759 There we go. Nailed it, got it. When Homer opens 247 00:13:13.799 --> 00:13:18.399 the Odyssey, he describes Odysseus as a man who is polytropos, 248 00:13:18.639 --> 00:13:21.240 and I fucking love this Greek word. One of my 249 00:13:21.279 --> 00:13:23.600 friends has it tattooed on her arm. Shut out, Katie, 250 00:13:23.639 --> 00:13:26.080 she's been on a few episodes. It's a really hard 251 00:13:26.080 --> 00:13:30.720 word to translate. The prefix polly obviously means many, like 252 00:13:30.879 --> 00:13:34.360 polyamory and tropos. The second part of this compact word 253 00:13:34.440 --> 00:13:37.799 is a turn away, a manner, a fashion, or even 254 00:13:37.840 --> 00:13:40.519 a guys. So he is the man of many turns, 255 00:13:40.600 --> 00:13:44.039 of many ways, of many guys is. And it's a 256 00:13:44.039 --> 00:13:47.519 pun because he's a man of many turns because he 257 00:13:47.559 --> 00:13:49.960 has to go on this crazy journey in voyage. 258 00:13:50.240 --> 00:13:50.399 Right. 259 00:13:50.519 --> 00:13:53.080 Some people have even translated a man of many sufferings. 260 00:13:53.360 --> 00:13:56.000 But he's also a man of many manners, many ways, 261 00:13:56.320 --> 00:14:02.320 because Odysseus is the ultimate liar, schemer and stratagem creator. 262 00:14:02.519 --> 00:14:04.840 Here's just like a few ways of people have translated 263 00:14:04.879 --> 00:14:07.679 the opening line of the Odyssey, Tell me about a 264 00:14:07.759 --> 00:14:11.360 complicated man, muse, tell me how he wandered and was 265 00:14:11.440 --> 00:14:13.639 lost when he had wrecked the holy town of Troy, 266 00:14:14.000 --> 00:14:16.799 and where he went and who he met, the pain 267 00:14:16.919 --> 00:14:19.360 he suffered on the sea, and how he worked to 268 00:14:19.440 --> 00:14:22.799 save his life and bring his men back home. As 269 00:14:22.919 --> 00:14:26.360 Emily Wilson. A very recent translation and apparently the one 270 00:14:26.399 --> 00:14:29.879 that Christopher Nolan used. Fagels said, sing to me of 271 00:14:29.919 --> 00:14:33.480 the man mus the man of twists and turns, right, 272 00:14:33.519 --> 00:14:35.720 he goes a different ways. They have complicated his twists 273 00:14:35.720 --> 00:14:40.080 and turns. And this guy Lombardo goes speak memory of 274 00:14:40.159 --> 00:14:44.360 the cunning hero. Right, So three very different translations. He's 275 00:14:44.360 --> 00:14:47.240 a man of twists and turns, He's cunning, he's complicated. 276 00:14:47.720 --> 00:14:51.120 They're all attempts to translate polytropos, and they're a pretty 277 00:14:51.159 --> 00:14:54.039 solid character description for the man of the hour. 278 00:14:54.240 --> 00:14:56.759 He's not really a liar in this movie. Mm hmmm. 279 00:14:57.240 --> 00:15:00.440 He is clever, sometimes he's not clever enough. Yeah, So 280 00:15:00.480 --> 00:15:02.799 he's not like a superhero. He doesn't always have a solution. 281 00:15:03.240 --> 00:15:04.960 Is that true in the books? Or is he always 282 00:15:04.960 --> 00:15:05.720 pretty competent? 283 00:15:05.879 --> 00:15:08.320 He does some lying when he gets back to Ithaca. 284 00:15:08.399 --> 00:15:12.919 That's like all in disguise and lying, right, All that's true, beggar? Yeah, No, 285 00:15:12.960 --> 00:15:15.720 I mean he blunders quite a bit in the source material. 286 00:15:16.000 --> 00:15:19.080 The Cyclops episode is one of the most different, but 287 00:15:19.159 --> 00:15:23.399 that's the most famous Odysseus blundering and costing them because 288 00:15:23.399 --> 00:15:26.720 he's very, very prideful, which is something I think Chris 289 00:15:26.720 --> 00:15:30.639 Nolan turned down a little bit. But in that episode, famously, 290 00:15:30.799 --> 00:15:34.919 they have a dialogue between Odysseus and the Cyclops and 291 00:15:35.320 --> 00:15:39.159 there's a Greek pun where the Cyclops has been blinded 292 00:15:39.320 --> 00:15:41.200 and he's talking and he said, who did this? Who 293 00:15:41.240 --> 00:15:45.519 did this? And Odysseus says is outis, which is Greek 294 00:15:45.600 --> 00:15:49.320 for no one. And the other cyclops come to help 295 00:15:49.320 --> 00:15:51.519 their buddy and they're like, hey, who blinded you? And 296 00:15:51.559 --> 00:15:54.159 he says, nobody blinded me. And they're like, oh, okay, 297 00:15:54.279 --> 00:15:56.360 story checks out. I guess because it was just an 298 00:15:56.360 --> 00:16:01.320 accident or whatever. But Odysseus is so so prideful that 299 00:16:01.480 --> 00:16:05.320 as he's sailing away, he can't help but taunt the Cyclops. 300 00:16:05.320 --> 00:16:09.080 He says, is not nobody who blinded you, it's me Odysseus. 301 00:16:09.200 --> 00:16:14.159 He doxes himself. He's like, it's me Odysseus from Ithaca. 302 00:16:14.559 --> 00:16:17.919 And sure enough, Paul Femus, the Cyclops is Poseidon's son. 303 00:16:18.200 --> 00:16:20.840 Praise to Poseidon to curse Odysseus for the rest of 304 00:16:20.879 --> 00:16:23.799 his journey, So a character trait that's not so much 305 00:16:23.799 --> 00:16:25.919 there in the movie, but in the work he's prideful 306 00:16:25.960 --> 00:16:28.919 as fuck, and it frequently leads to problems for him, 307 00:16:29.120 --> 00:16:31.759 or at least in this one big instance. Most Americ 308 00:16:31.840 --> 00:16:37.120 heroes are superlative, like they are the most something. Agamemnon 309 00:16:37.240 --> 00:16:40.320 is the kingliest, he's the most kingly, Achilles is the 310 00:16:40.320 --> 00:16:45.039 best fighter. Nestor he's the oldest guy, but he's also 311 00:16:45.080 --> 00:16:49.000 the wisest guy in that old timer kind of way. Ajax, 312 00:16:49.360 --> 00:16:52.399 biggest guy. I think we mentioned on our Troy episode 313 00:16:52.440 --> 00:16:55.320 there's a guy named Thersid's the ugliest guy at Troy. 314 00:16:55.480 --> 00:16:59.840 Everybody's got something, you know. And Odysseus is the clever 315 00:17:00.200 --> 00:17:03.879 guy at Troy in that lying, hustling stratagem kind of way. 316 00:17:04.119 --> 00:17:04.559 Gotcha. 317 00:17:04.799 --> 00:17:07.839 And yeah, I think the traits that Nolan drops or softens, 318 00:17:07.960 --> 00:17:10.400 I think he drops a lot of the pride because 319 00:17:10.440 --> 00:17:13.440 it just doesn't really jive with us. I mean, in 320 00:17:13.519 --> 00:17:16.839 the work, he lynches, like quite literally with a hanging 321 00:17:17.119 --> 00:17:21.720 a dozen of Penelope's handmaidens for sleeping with the suitors, 322 00:17:21.759 --> 00:17:24.759 and by sleeping with I mean being sexually assaulted by 323 00:17:24.759 --> 00:17:27.920 the suitors, because these are enslaved people that didn't make 324 00:17:27.920 --> 00:17:28.920 it in the fucking movie. 325 00:17:28.960 --> 00:17:31.519 You know, he's a little proud when he shoots the cyclops. 326 00:17:31.559 --> 00:17:35.200 I took that lesson there to be like, don't be 327 00:17:35.279 --> 00:17:37.119 so boastful, like don't gloat. 328 00:17:37.359 --> 00:17:40.359 Yes, in the work he's hornier, right. He sleeps with 329 00:17:40.519 --> 00:17:45.519 both Circe the Witch and Calypso the Immortal Nymph, and 330 00:17:46.039 --> 00:17:48.279 in the film he doesn't sleep with Circe at all, 331 00:17:48.640 --> 00:17:51.119 And any of the love between Calypso and him, I 332 00:17:51.160 --> 00:17:54.440 think is just implied. And to keep him the loyal husband, 333 00:17:54.480 --> 00:17:56.839 like he's only in love with Calypso when he's eating 334 00:17:56.839 --> 00:17:59.960 the lotus flowers. To keep Odysseus's hands a little bit clean. 335 00:18:00.359 --> 00:18:05.000 Despite his nickname being polytropos. He is a monogamous man 336 00:18:05.200 --> 00:18:08.480 in this film, a loving monogamous man. And I think 337 00:18:08.480 --> 00:18:11.960 the traits that Nolan adds or exaggerates is that in 338 00:18:12.000 --> 00:18:16.559 this film Odysseus is crippled with guilt. This is his 339 00:18:16.839 --> 00:18:21.839 number one emotion that he feels. He feels guilty for 340 00:18:22.319 --> 00:18:25.440 the very Stratagem, the Trojan horse that helped the Greeks 341 00:18:25.480 --> 00:18:28.960 win the Trojan War. He is Oppenheimer, and the Trojan 342 00:18:29.000 --> 00:18:31.319 Horse is the nuclear bomb. This is looking ahead to 343 00:18:31.359 --> 00:18:34.200 what we're gonna do later. But the Trojan Horse's history 344 00:18:34.319 --> 00:18:37.680 in the world of the film violates Zeus's law and 345 00:18:37.799 --> 00:18:41.039 leads to so much rage and destruction and desecration and 346 00:18:41.079 --> 00:18:44.160 all that that the Greeks themselves have become marauding sea 347 00:18:44.200 --> 00:18:47.880 people's and our age of Bronze is ending. This is 348 00:18:47.920 --> 00:18:50.319 in the poem a little bit. There's a scene that 349 00:18:50.400 --> 00:18:53.200 was cut for time, which is fine, where Odysseus is 350 00:18:53.240 --> 00:18:55.559 at another one of these islands. He's being hosted at 351 00:18:55.559 --> 00:18:58.720 a dinner party by the Fiatians, and a bard starts 352 00:18:58.759 --> 00:19:01.400 coming in and the bar is singing the songs of 353 00:19:01.440 --> 00:19:04.559 the Trojan War, like we see Travis Scott do in 354 00:19:04.640 --> 00:19:07.880 Ithaca in the film. And Odysseus when he hears the songs, 355 00:19:07.920 --> 00:19:11.480 he starts weeping and covering his face. The songs that 356 00:19:11.519 --> 00:19:14.079 he's hearing are all about his dead friends, and this 357 00:19:14.119 --> 00:19:16.079 is entertainment to all these people. 358 00:19:16.240 --> 00:19:17.160 That had have been a good scene. 359 00:19:17.200 --> 00:19:20.079 I like that, Yeah, But Christopher Nolan does something brilliant 360 00:19:20.079 --> 00:19:21.880 and that he cuts the scene, but he alludes to 361 00:19:21.960 --> 00:19:24.920 it when he's talking to Penelope through the screen. He 362 00:19:24.960 --> 00:19:27.400 has this acide where he says, I don't like those 363 00:19:27.400 --> 00:19:30.200 songs because they make me cry. Oh okay, so he 364 00:19:30.240 --> 00:19:32.759 has Odysseus allude to it, which I think is nice. 365 00:19:32.799 --> 00:19:35.119 I think that also, as a guy who has never 366 00:19:35.160 --> 00:19:38.519 read any Homeric work, I got the sense that Odysseus 367 00:19:38.519 --> 00:19:42.000 one of his character traits is pragmatism as a leader. 368 00:19:42.079 --> 00:19:44.519 There's plenty of lines where like his soldiers are asking 369 00:19:44.599 --> 00:19:48.359 him if they can move a fallen comrade's body outside 370 00:19:48.400 --> 00:19:52.319 of the Cyclops's cave, and Odysseus says he died trying 371 00:19:52.319 --> 00:19:55.680 to escape. We can on a run by escaping. Mm hm, listen, 372 00:19:55.680 --> 00:19:58.720 I gotta see a guy about a girl. The gods 373 00:19:58.720 --> 00:20:02.480 help those who help themselves. Also, when the Lystragonians are 374 00:20:02.519 --> 00:20:05.480 tearing apart their other ship and the men are all like, 375 00:20:05.519 --> 00:20:07.720 we got to go help them, and He's like, we're 376 00:20:07.720 --> 00:20:09.680 gonna die if we do that. We gotta just be 377 00:20:09.839 --> 00:20:12.799 less sentimental and power forward selfishly. 378 00:20:13.119 --> 00:20:15.400 Mm hmm. Yeah. I mean, the poem makes clear that 379 00:20:15.599 --> 00:20:20.799 Odysseus's soldier's death that's their fault, not his. They say 380 00:20:20.839 --> 00:20:23.440 that in the first lines. I get what you're saying, 381 00:20:23.519 --> 00:20:27.160 and I think this is probably something that Nolan increases 382 00:20:27.240 --> 00:20:30.359 a little bit. I was paging through rereading some sections 383 00:20:30.359 --> 00:20:33.039 of the Odyssey. I was rereading the bit where he's 384 00:20:33.079 --> 00:20:35.200 talking to the dead, and one of the first dead 385 00:20:35.240 --> 00:20:40.079 guys that talks to Odysseus is elpin Or. Elpinor's funnier 386 00:20:40.079 --> 00:20:42.519 to say it, elpin Or. But he was one of 387 00:20:42.519 --> 00:20:48.200 Odysseus's men who was sleeping on Circe's roof drunk, fell 388 00:20:48.240 --> 00:20:52.279 off and died, and they forgot to bury him, and 389 00:20:52.359 --> 00:20:55.640 Odysseus promises that he'll go back and bury him when 390 00:20:55.640 --> 00:20:56.440 he's talking to him. 391 00:20:56.599 --> 00:20:59.319 How important of a character is Odysseus in the Iliad, 392 00:20:59.480 --> 00:21:01.240 Like I know you mentioned that he's kind of there 393 00:21:01.640 --> 00:21:04.400 with Achilles. Is he a major character? Does he appear 394 00:21:04.599 --> 00:21:06.079 as often as anyone else? 395 00:21:06.200 --> 00:21:09.400 He's pretty significant? Where does he shine? The embassy to 396 00:21:09.440 --> 00:21:12.480 Achilles is a major scene in the work, and he's 397 00:21:12.519 --> 00:21:15.240 one of the main protagonists there. He also goes on 398 00:21:15.279 --> 00:21:19.160 this daring night raid late in the thing. He's definitely 399 00:21:19.240 --> 00:21:21.759 up there. He's not as important as Achilles or Hector 400 00:21:21.880 --> 00:21:25.720 or Agamemnon, i'd say for moving the dramatic action along. 401 00:21:25.599 --> 00:21:29.160