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True Murder with 33 00:01:29.799 --> 00:01:33.159 your host journalist and author Dan Zupanski. 34 00:01:42.760 --> 00:01:48.719 Good Evening. On January twenty first, nineteen fifty eight, nineteen 35 00:01:48.799 --> 00:01:52.400 year old Charles Starkweather changed the course of crime in 36 00:01:52.439 --> 00:01:55.719 the United States when he murdered the parents and sister 37 00:01:55.799 --> 00:01:59.760 of his fourteen year old girlfriend and possible accomplice, Carol 38 00:01:59.799 --> 00:02:03.920 and Fugate, in a house on the edge of Lincoln, Nebraska. 39 00:02:04.560 --> 00:02:07.439 They then drove to the nearby town of Bennett, where 40 00:02:07.439 --> 00:02:10.960 a farmer was robbed and killed. When stark Weather's car 41 00:02:11.039 --> 00:02:14.759 broke down, the teenagers who stopped to help were murdered 42 00:02:14.800 --> 00:02:17.479 and jammed into a storm cellar. By the time the 43 00:02:17.560 --> 00:02:21.479 dust settled, ten innocent people were dead and the city 44 00:02:21.520 --> 00:02:25.759 of Lincoln was in a state of terror. Schools closed, 45 00:02:26.159 --> 00:02:29.319 men with rifles perched on the roofs of their houses 46 00:02:29.960 --> 00:02:33.680 the National Guard patrolled the street. If there is a 47 00:02:33.719 --> 00:02:38.199 cultural version of PTSD, the town suffered from it. Stark 48 00:02:38.240 --> 00:02:41.759 Weather and few Gates capture and arrest, and the resulting 49 00:02:41.840 --> 00:02:47.080 trials about the killing spree received worldwide coverage. The event 50 00:02:47.120 --> 00:02:50.159 would serve as the inspiration for the movie Natural Born 51 00:02:50.240 --> 00:02:55.840 Killers and Springsteen's iconic album Nebraska. Today, the story has 52 00:02:55.919 --> 00:03:00.719 dropped far from the national consciousness. With new material, news reporting, 53 00:03:01.120 --> 00:03:04.879 and new conclusions about the possible guilt or innocence of Fugate, 54 00:03:05.199 --> 00:03:09.159 the tale is ripe for an updated and definitive retelling. 55 00:03:09.960 --> 00:03:14.879 In stark Weather, best selling author Harry and McLean tells 56 00:03:14.960 --> 00:03:18.759 the story of this shocking event and its lasting impact, 57 00:03:19.159 --> 00:03:22.560 a crime spree that struck deep into the heart of 58 00:03:22.599 --> 00:03:25.400 the Heartland. The book they were featuring this evening is 59 00:03:25.439 --> 00:03:28.840 stark Weather, The Untold Story of the Killing Spree that 60 00:03:29.039 --> 00:03:33.840 Changed America, with my special guest author Harry and McLain. 61 00:03:34.360 --> 00:03:38.520 Good evening, and welcome to the program, Author Harry McLean. 62 00:03:38.439 --> 00:03:40.599 Good evening, Thanks for having me to your program. 63 00:03:40.680 --> 00:03:43.719 I appreciate it, Thank you very much. Let's talk about 64 00:03:43.800 --> 00:03:47.199 right away. In your extraordinary book, you talk about you 65 00:03:47.240 --> 00:03:51.520 were fifteen years old in January nineteen fifty eight, and 66 00:03:51.599 --> 00:03:54.960 Carol Fugate was thirteen years old, Charlie stark Weather was 67 00:03:55.080 --> 00:03:59.479 nineteen years old, and you all lived in Lincoln, Nebraska. 68 00:03:59.599 --> 00:04:02.560 Tell us your proximity to one of the houses and 69 00:04:02.879 --> 00:04:06.080 homes involved in one of the sets of murders, and 70 00:04:06.360 --> 00:04:09.240 tell us a little bit about how you became involved 71 00:04:09.439 --> 00:04:12.439 in writing this book in twenty and twenty one. 72 00:04:12.520 --> 00:04:15.639 Well, I lived on the other side of town from 73 00:04:15.800 --> 00:04:18.920 Carol Fugate and Charlie Starkweather. I was kind of the 74 00:04:19.040 --> 00:04:23.519 borderline country club set. Carroll's family was quite poor and 75 00:04:23.560 --> 00:04:27.279 they lived in an area called Belmont, which was North Lincoln. 76 00:04:27.560 --> 00:04:29.920 Charlie was doing a little bit better, but he's still 77 00:04:29.959 --> 00:04:33.240 in North Lincoln. So while we lived in the same town, 78 00:04:33.360 --> 00:04:37.800 and actually my brother was in junior high school with Charlie, 79 00:04:38.160 --> 00:04:41.879 we didn't run in the same circles. And it all 80 00:04:42.319 --> 00:04:49.000 the story begins in nineteen fifty eight January twentieth twenty first, 81 00:04:49.120 --> 00:04:53.079 nineteen fifty eight and ends eight days later, nine days 82 00:04:53.160 --> 00:04:57.279 later with the capture and in between that time period. 83 00:04:57.360 --> 00:05:01.160 In that time period, ten people die shot or stabbed 84 00:05:01.160 --> 00:05:04.399 to death, a variety of people, and Charlie clearly is 85 00:05:04.480 --> 00:05:09.160 involved in the killings. Carol's involvement is very debatable. It's 86 00:05:09.319 --> 00:05:12.600 very ambiguous. It's not clear. She claimed that she was 87 00:05:12.639 --> 00:05:15.600 the hostage. She went along with Charlie on each one 88 00:05:15.639 --> 00:05:19.120 of these murders. She was there and participated to some 89 00:05:19.519 --> 00:05:25.480 minimal extent, But what was her culpability criminal or morally 90 00:05:25.600 --> 00:05:28.000 since she was only fourteen years old at the time. 91 00:05:28.240 --> 00:05:30.959 So that's the main theme in the book. And basically 92 00:05:31.319 --> 00:05:34.959 Charlie and Carol were going out. He was nineteen, he 93 00:05:35.000 --> 00:05:37.000 had met her when he was seventeen. She had just 94 00:05:37.079 --> 00:05:41.439 turned thirteen, and Carol's parents had told Charlie to leave 95 00:05:41.480 --> 00:05:44.720 and to stay away and not come around anymore. And 96 00:05:44.800 --> 00:05:48.800 on the first on Monday, the twenty first, Charlie shot 97 00:05:49.040 --> 00:05:54.800 Carol's mother, stepfather, and little sister to death. Charlie ended 98 00:05:54.879 --> 00:05:57.839 up claiming that Carol was there when it happened. Carol 99 00:05:57.879 --> 00:05:59.839 said she was not there when it happened, that she 100 00:06:00.120 --> 00:06:04.240 came home later. They stay in the house for about 101 00:06:04.279 --> 00:06:07.160 six days, spending on how you counted, it could be seven. 102 00:06:07.439 --> 00:06:11.839 On the seventh day, they leave because Carol's grandmother they've 103 00:06:11.839 --> 00:06:14.519 been hiding in the house and Carol's grandmother said she's 104 00:06:14.560 --> 00:06:16.680 going to call the cops, so they hit the road. 105 00:06:17.199 --> 00:06:20.360 They head out for a town south of Lincoln called Bennett, 106 00:06:20.519 --> 00:06:24.360 and the cops come to her home. They don't see 107 00:06:24.399 --> 00:06:28.639 anything wrong. They miss pretty obvious sites that something terrible 108 00:06:28.639 --> 00:06:31.480 has happened there, and in fact, her parents and little 109 00:06:31.519 --> 00:06:36.959 sister in outbuildings frozen in the January Nebraska weather for 110 00:06:37.120 --> 00:06:39.879 that whole week when they were there, and they don't 111 00:06:39.879 --> 00:06:43.240 look out buildings, so they don't see the bodies. Carol 112 00:06:43.480 --> 00:06:45.959 and Charlie end up in a town called Bennett, which 113 00:06:45.959 --> 00:06:47.800 is about twenty miles south of Lincoln. 114 00:06:48.000 --> 00:06:49.319 There they murder. 115 00:06:49.759 --> 00:06:52.360 Charlie murders a good friend of his on whose property 116 00:06:52.399 --> 00:06:55.680 he used to hunt, and subsequent to that, they killed 117 00:06:55.680 --> 00:06:58.759 two teenagers, Carol King and Bobby Jensen, who pick them 118 00:06:58.839 --> 00:07:01.800 up while they're hitch hiking. They then hit back to 119 00:07:01.879 --> 00:07:04.680 Lincoln just about the time the cops have found the 120 00:07:04.720 --> 00:07:08.360 bodies in Lincoln of her family. They hit back to 121 00:07:08.439 --> 00:07:12.839 Lincoln and that night they're in Lincoln and the bodies 122 00:07:12.879 --> 00:07:16.560 are discovered in Bennett. The next day they're in Lincoln 123 00:07:16.680 --> 00:07:20.920 at a very wealthy family house. There they murder three people, 124 00:07:21.120 --> 00:07:25.480 mister Ward Clara Ward and the maid Lillian Fencil. They 125 00:07:25.560 --> 00:07:29.040 then head out for Wyoming, and the cops are always 126 00:07:29.040 --> 00:07:31.600 one step behind him. They're always at least one crime 127 00:07:31.680 --> 00:07:34.360 scene behind him. And they head out and they they're 128 00:07:34.360 --> 00:07:36.800 heading towards the state of Washington, and they get into 129 00:07:37.199 --> 00:07:41.040 the bad lands of Wyoming. Charlie Murders shoots to death 130 00:07:41.120 --> 00:07:44.519 a traveling salesman who is has pulled over for a nap. 131 00:07:44.720 --> 00:07:47.480 Charlie wants his car because the car he's to god 132 00:07:47.600 --> 00:07:50.120 is hot, so he shoots him to death. About that time, 133 00:07:50.199 --> 00:07:53.040 the sheriff pulls up. Eryl jumps to the sheriff's car. 134 00:07:53.199 --> 00:07:56.399 Charlie takes off. There's a big chase where the cops 135 00:07:56.439 --> 00:07:58.879 are shooting him, shooting at him, going one hundred and 136 00:07:58.879 --> 00:08:01.879 ten miles now across the bedlines. They eventually capture him 137 00:08:02.040 --> 00:08:05.959 their return to Lincoln on Friday. So all this happens 138 00:08:06.199 --> 00:08:10.639 from Monday through Friday. It seems like a long nightmare 139 00:08:10.720 --> 00:08:13.279 for the city of Lincoln because they were terrified. They 140 00:08:13.360 --> 00:08:15.759 knew Charlie was on the loose, they knew he was 141 00:08:15.879 --> 00:08:19.160 terrifying people. They knew that no one knew where he was. 142 00:08:19.279 --> 00:08:22.120 The cops didn't know where he was, and in the 143 00:08:22.160 --> 00:08:24.720 middle of this bodies would turn out more dead people, 144 00:08:24.800 --> 00:08:27.160 so they were terrified. It's hard to believe it's only 145 00:08:27.160 --> 00:08:30.000 a five day period. They bring Charlie and Carroll back. 146 00:08:30.439 --> 00:08:34.759 Charlie confesses he's quite pleased with the course of events 147 00:08:34.519 --> 00:08:37.639 in my view, because he's going to go out as 148 00:08:37.679 --> 00:08:40.879 a legend. He is able to predict at that point 149 00:08:40.919 --> 00:08:44.279 that movies and books will be made of his adventure. 150 00:08:44.480 --> 00:08:48.000 So he confesses. There is a trial on sanity, he's convicted. 151 00:08:48.080 --> 00:08:52.840 He's executed within fifteen months of his conviction. Carol has 152 00:08:52.879 --> 00:08:57.240 tried on a felony murder Bobby Jensen, the Boy and Bennett, 153 00:08:57.279 --> 00:09:01.000 and she's convicted and she goes to prison for her life. 154 00:09:01.000 --> 00:09:02.720 She's given life, she could have been given the death 155 00:09:02.720 --> 00:09:05.679 sentence under the rascal a lot at the time, and 156 00:09:05.799 --> 00:09:09.519 she goes to prison women's reformatory in York. She's out 157 00:09:09.559 --> 00:09:14.720 seventeen years later, still proclaiming her innocence and lives a 158 00:09:15.000 --> 00:09:16.200 pretty normal life. 159 00:09:16.440 --> 00:09:21.600 Okay, Harry, now let's go back. We've you've abbreviated the 160 00:09:21.759 --> 00:09:25.279 entire story. But let's go back as you do. You 161 00:09:25.320 --> 00:09:28.320 said you knocked on every door, you turned over every stone, 162 00:09:28.399 --> 00:09:31.320 you spoke to everybody you possibly could. You looked at 163 00:09:31.360 --> 00:09:35.320 all of the documentation very very carefully, over and over again. 164 00:09:35.840 --> 00:09:39.840 Let's go back to Carol Fugates background, and then let's 165 00:09:39.840 --> 00:09:42.519 talk about Carl's Starkweather's background. 166 00:09:42.759 --> 00:09:45.840 Carol was from a poor family, as I said, poor 167 00:09:46.159 --> 00:09:50.000 part of town. Her dad, her biological dad, was violent. 168 00:09:50.200 --> 00:09:53.240 He was a pedophile, and he beat her mother pretty badly, 169 00:09:53.519 --> 00:09:56.919 and they moved every five or six months. She went 170 00:09:56.960 --> 00:09:59.320 to six schools in five years, so she had a 171 00:09:59.360 --> 00:10:01.159 rep pretty rough childhood. 172 00:10:01.240 --> 00:10:02.080 Put it mildly. 173 00:10:02.519 --> 00:10:06.279 She did alright in school. She had a couple of friends. 174 00:10:06.320 --> 00:10:09.240 She wasn't the star in any sense of the word, 175 00:10:09.320 --> 00:10:13.440 but she was mildly well adjusted for given her background. 176 00:10:13.799 --> 00:10:19.480 Charlie started off well. Charlie is five foot four, flaming thick, 177 00:10:19.559 --> 00:10:24.240 flaming red hair, and bow legged and pigeon toed and 178 00:10:24.279 --> 00:10:27.840 spoke with a lisp. So everybody can think back to 179 00:10:27.919 --> 00:10:31.399 their childhood, how cool kids could be in school. And 180 00:10:31.399 --> 00:10:35.200 they were terribly cruel to Charlie. I talked well, as 181 00:10:35.240 --> 00:10:37.279 I said, My brother was in school with him, but 182 00:10:37.360 --> 00:10:41.320 they taunted him and mocked him and chased him mercilessly 183 00:10:41.799 --> 00:10:45.159 through most of grade school, and finally, one day his 184 00:10:45.320 --> 00:10:47.799 dad sat him down and said, look, you don't have 185 00:10:47.840 --> 00:10:50.519 to put up with this anymore. Hit him, smack him. 186 00:10:50.840 --> 00:10:53.559 That was a pivot for Charlie. From that point on, 187 00:10:53.879 --> 00:10:57.759 he didn't run from anybody. He fought harder than most people. 188 00:10:57.879 --> 00:11:00.519 He fought dirtier than most people. He would a fight. 189 00:11:00.600 --> 00:11:03.679 He would see somebody across the street that didn't he 190 00:11:03.679 --> 00:11:05.720 didn't like his looks, you'd go over and say something 191 00:11:05.799 --> 00:11:08.840 dim smack him in them out. His reputation started to 192 00:11:08.879 --> 00:11:11.440 spread across Lincoln. By then, he was he became he 193 00:11:11.519 --> 00:11:15.240 became a known character. The way he kind of dealt 194 00:11:15.320 --> 00:11:18.440 with the way he was being dealt with treated by 195 00:11:18.480 --> 00:11:23.720 other kids was besides being a tough guy, he developed 196 00:11:23.720 --> 00:11:27.559 the fantasy world in which he was an outlaw, or 197 00:11:27.639 --> 00:11:30.080 he could be a sheriff, but his favorite fantasy was 198 00:11:30.120 --> 00:11:33.240 an outlaw and he got into shootouts with people, and 199 00:11:33.279 --> 00:11:36.360 he ran, and he advice with lawmen, and he had 200 00:11:36.360 --> 00:11:38.639 a gang and all that sort of stuff. And this 201 00:11:38.639 --> 00:11:42.360 this fantasy became really kind of took over his consciousness. 202 00:11:42.360 --> 00:11:45.000 It became, you know, it was the contents of his 203 00:11:45.559 --> 00:11:48.679 self perception, that he was this outlaw and he really 204 00:11:48.759 --> 00:11:51.919 wanted to go out. He he didn't foresee himself living 205 00:11:51.960 --> 00:11:54.639 a long life at all. He was happy to go 206 00:11:54.679 --> 00:11:57.120 out in a blaze of glory. So he reached the 207 00:11:57.159 --> 00:12:00.200 point where he wanted to see if this fantasy that 208 00:12:00.240 --> 00:12:02.879 he had in his head about being an outlaw on 209 00:12:03.039 --> 00:12:06.559 killing people and getting into shootouts was real. He could 210 00:12:06.639 --> 00:12:09.960 make it real. In November fifty seven, he tested out 211 00:12:10.000 --> 00:12:12.960 this theory and he shot to death a gas station 212 00:12:13.080 --> 00:12:17.679 attendant on the outside on a small road outside of Lincoln, 213 00:12:17.720 --> 00:12:20.200 on the edge of Lincoln, and he robbed him and 214 00:12:20.200 --> 00:12:24.799 shot him to death, and it worked. Charlie found it satisfying. 215 00:12:25.240 --> 00:12:27.320 It was a new life for him in the sense 216 00:12:27.360 --> 00:12:30.919 that now he was moving his fantasy into reality. All 217 00:12:31.000 --> 00:12:35.080 he needed now with the girl, and there comes Carol. 218 00:12:35.480 --> 00:12:38.879 Carol is now the last piece in Charlie's fantasy in 219 00:12:38.919 --> 00:12:41.679 his puzzle, and the two of them become a unit. 220 00:12:42.000 --> 00:12:46.559 Tell us about Carol's sister, Barbara, and how Carol meets 221 00:12:47.000 --> 00:12:49.120 Charles Starkweather in the first place. 222 00:12:49.279 --> 00:12:53.080 Barbara is going with a friend of Charlie von Bush 223 00:12:53.240 --> 00:12:56.840 and Charlie and Bob kind of the they run together 224 00:12:56.919 --> 00:12:59.600 they're kind of the tough guys in Lincoln, and I 225 00:12:59.639 --> 00:13:02.000 do remember that about him. There were kids that got 226 00:13:02.120 --> 00:13:05.000 in fights at all the schools, and van Bush and 227 00:13:05.080 --> 00:13:08.720 Stark Oather were two of the toughest gies. And Van 228 00:13:08.759 --> 00:13:12.240 Bush hooked up with Barbara, Carol's older sister who she 229 00:13:12.360 --> 00:13:15.960 was quite close, and brought Charlie with him one night 230 00:13:16.440 --> 00:13:19.840 over there and introduced him to Carol. And that was 231 00:13:19.879 --> 00:13:23.399 the point of the gathering was so they could meet 232 00:13:23.879 --> 00:13:27.000 and they became a couple almost that night, even though 233 00:13:27.039 --> 00:13:30.440 Carol was only fourteen and Charlie was seventeen at the time, 234 00:13:31.039 --> 00:13:33.600 and they were together. It was about a year and 235 00:13:33.639 --> 00:13:36.519 a half before the killing started. They went together for 236 00:13:36.559 --> 00:13:38.600 about a year and a half before the killing started. 237 00:13:38.919 --> 00:13:41.879 You're right that she really liked his stories about his 238 00:13:42.200 --> 00:13:46.200 outlog gang and liked that he could fix cars, and 239 00:13:46.840 --> 00:13:49.159 liked his red hair even and even that he was 240 00:13:49.200 --> 00:13:52.120 bow legged, and that he was much different. So for 241 00:13:52.159 --> 00:13:55.639 the first time he liked her, but someone liked him, 242 00:13:55.759 --> 00:13:56.919 and it was important to him. 243 00:13:57.039 --> 00:13:59.000 She liked the way he looked, She liked the idea 244 00:13:59.080 --> 00:14:01.120 that he was a tough She kind of liked the 245 00:14:01.159 --> 00:14:04.360 idea that the guys were scared of him. He ran 246 00:14:04.399 --> 00:14:06.679 hot rides out at the track outside of Lincoln on 247 00:14:06.720 --> 00:14:10.240 Sunday night. She kind of liked that. And the reverse 248 00:14:10.279 --> 00:14:13.120 of that is that, you know the way psychologists look 249 00:14:13.159 --> 00:14:15.720 at somebody like Carol as they call her a sitting duck, 250 00:14:16.000 --> 00:14:20.240 meaning that she came from such a traumatic background at 251 00:14:20.240 --> 00:14:23.600 that point that what she wanted was somebody in her 252 00:14:23.639 --> 00:14:26.080 life to stabilize her and to whom she would be 253 00:14:26.120 --> 00:14:29.840 the most important person. And Charlie, I think understood that 254 00:14:30.279 --> 00:14:33.080 and did. He didn't overtly manipulate her, but he filled 255 00:14:33.080 --> 00:14:35.919 that role very nicely for her. She was the most 256 00:14:35.919 --> 00:14:37.320 important thing in his life. 257 00:14:37.480 --> 00:14:39.840 You say they did all kinds of things, They had 258 00:14:39.879 --> 00:14:45.159 a sexual relationship. And again, what happens after a year 259 00:14:45.200 --> 00:14:47.360 and a half is that you talk and you write 260 00:14:47.360 --> 00:14:50.519 about the altercation that happens at the home with the 261 00:14:50.559 --> 00:14:55.039 stepfather Mary and Bartlett and the mother slapping his face, 262 00:14:55.320 --> 00:14:59.639 and then the issue of whether Carol was involved in 263 00:15:00.159 --> 00:15:02.679 was present at all in the murder of her family. 264 00:15:02.919 --> 00:15:06.320 It's important that you look at that and delve into 265 00:15:06.360 --> 00:15:09.559 that issue completely and then have a conclusion as to 266 00:15:09.879 --> 00:15:13.600 that possibility. Tell us about what happens in your mind, 267 00:15:14.120 --> 00:15:17.639 and according to Carol, that faithful day. 268 00:15:18.200 --> 00:15:21.039 You put your finger right on the critical issue in 269 00:15:21.120 --> 00:15:24.240 the story as far as it relates to Carol's guilt innocence. 270 00:15:24.440 --> 00:15:29.159 If she was there when Charlie murdered her mother, her stepfather, 271 00:15:29.279 --> 00:15:32.519 and her little sister and continued with him, it makes 272 00:15:32.519 --> 00:15:35.279 sure whether she should be complicit at for it makes 273 00:15:35.320 --> 00:15:38.679 her complicit in the ongoing murders in the sense that 274 00:15:38.759 --> 00:15:40.840 she knew what was going to happen, she could run 275 00:15:40.879 --> 00:15:43.519 away from him. There are plenty of opportunities for run 276 00:15:43.600 --> 00:15:46.759 if she wasn't there. If the first thing she saw 277 00:15:47.159 --> 00:15:50.000 was when she got home from school at four o'clock, 278 00:15:50.120 --> 00:15:53.279 was Charlie inside with a shotgun saying that he had 279 00:15:53.279 --> 00:15:56.600 her parents' hostage and would kill them if she tried 280 00:15:56.639 --> 00:16:00.120 to leave, that sends a story in a whole different direction. 281 00:16:00.360 --> 00:16:03.840 And Carol always claimed that she was a hostage, that 282 00:16:04.720 --> 00:16:08.200 she believed that Charlie was going to kill her, her parents, 283 00:16:08.240 --> 00:16:10.799 and her little sister and probably her if she tried 284 00:16:10.840 --> 00:16:15.120 to run. And if that's the case, then the first 285 00:16:15.159 --> 00:16:18.600 time she saw Charlie kill somebody was when he killed 286 00:16:18.639 --> 00:16:21.159 the farmer outside of Bennett and that would have been 287 00:16:21.320 --> 00:16:25.200 the traumatic situation that would have impacted her if she 288 00:16:25.360 --> 00:16:29.000 was there. Of course, she's a completely different story. So 289 00:16:29.000 --> 00:16:31.759 the big issue was was she there? And I resolved 290 00:16:31.759 --> 00:16:36.039 it through detailed analysis of the facts and some inferences 291 00:16:36.080 --> 00:16:38.759 that are drawn that she wasn't there, that she came 292 00:16:38.799 --> 00:16:41.639 home and Charlie had already cleaned up the house and 293 00:16:41.679 --> 00:16:45.039 buried the bodies and some outbuildings not too far away, 294 00:16:45.480 --> 00:16:48.759 and that she went with Charlie out of fear for 295 00:16:48.799 --> 00:16:49.840 her parents' lives. 296 00:16:50.080 --> 00:16:53.159 At the same time, once these two were captured, they 297 00:16:53.159 --> 00:16:56.879 are placed in separate vehicles with law enforcement. And also 298 00:16:57.039 --> 00:17:01.759 this major issue again nineteen fifty eight, but then advances 299 00:17:01.840 --> 00:17:05.160 in the legal system where she was fourteen and she 300 00:17:05.279 --> 00:17:09.720 was questioned when she was accused of murder without an attorney, 301 00:17:10.160 --> 00:17:14.279 without a parent present, So not only the age of fourteen, 302 00:17:14.440 --> 00:17:17.759 but also that adult right to counsel wasn't given to 303 00:17:17.839 --> 00:17:20.079 her as a obvious juvenile. 304 00:17:20.680 --> 00:17:22.799 And I mean the fact is she was sedated when 305 00:17:22.839 --> 00:17:25.680 she was interrogated initially two when they got her, she 306 00:17:25.759 --> 00:17:28.400 was hysterical, claming Charlie was going to kill her, and 307 00:17:28.519 --> 00:17:31.359 she wasn't involved in anything, which is what Charlie said 308 00:17:31.400 --> 00:17:34.240 in the beginning. For a month, Charlie denied that she 309 00:17:34.400 --> 00:17:36.839 was involved in any of the criminal activity or that 310 00:17:36.880 --> 00:17:39.519 she had been at home. What he killed her parents. 311 00:17:39.880 --> 00:17:43.759 So he comes in jesuhysterical. They sedate her for two days, 312 00:17:43.880 --> 00:17:46.079 that day and that night and the next day on 313 00:17:46.400 --> 00:17:50.400 drive back to Lincoln, and she now believes that her 314 00:17:50.400 --> 00:17:53.079 parents are dead. She asked enough people. She finally asked 315 00:17:53.079 --> 00:17:55.920 her sister, and she's placed in the mental hospital because 316 00:17:55.920 --> 00:17:59.920 they don't have a facility for juvenile girls. And she's 317 00:18:00.119 --> 00:18:02.759 ends the next She's not treated at all, not interviewed, 318 00:18:02.839 --> 00:18:07.039 not evaluated ever. She sits out there and while her 319 00:18:08.000 --> 00:18:11.599 trial is delayed for six or seven months because they're 320 00:18:11.640 --> 00:18:14.799 resolving this issue where she's going to be tried. They 321 00:18:14.960 --> 00:18:18.880 interrogate her on Saturday. She's back on Friday, back and 322 00:18:19.319 --> 00:18:23.039 they interrogate her for several hours on Saturday, Sunday and Monday. 323 00:18:23.079 --> 00:18:26.160 And it kind of depends what you call interrogation how 324 00:18:26.240 --> 00:18:28.279 many hours you can add in there, but it's it's 325 00:18:28.279 --> 00:18:33.319 the minimum of ten hours. And she does ask she 326 00:18:33.359 --> 00:18:35.400 does ask for it. She's asked her she wants an attorney. 327 00:18:35.400 --> 00:18:37.880 She says, yes, I do. She doesn't really know what's 328 00:18:37.920 --> 00:18:42.960 going on. I mean, it's hard to imagine what state 329 00:18:43.079 --> 00:18:45.680 she was really in that point at the age and 330 00:18:45.720 --> 00:18:48.480 the trauma, and the DA and the police chief are 331 00:18:48.519 --> 00:18:50.880 all sitting in this room with her, and she's there 332 00:18:50.920 --> 00:18:53.799 all by herself, no parent, no adult, no lawyer or nothing, 333 00:18:53.839 --> 00:18:57.960 and she's getting interrogated. She makes a statement, then sixty 334 00:18:58.000 --> 00:19:01.079 six page statement, which is what ends convicting her at 335 00:19:01.119 --> 00:19:03.960 the trial. It would never ever, ever be admitted into 336 00:19:04.039 --> 00:19:05.240 evidence today. 337 00:19:05.039 --> 00:19:08.240 You said, no attorney would advise it, but also explain 338 00:19:08.319 --> 00:19:11.480 for our audience the felony murder rule, so that while 339 00:19:11.519 --> 00:19:15.400 she's confessing, she, as you write, she's tightening the noose 340 00:19:15.759 --> 00:19:16.640 for the prosecution. 341 00:19:17.640 --> 00:19:22.079 Yeah, pelony murderer is quite controversial, and it always has been. 342 00:19:22.759 --> 00:19:26.240 And it's if you're involved in the crime in which 343 00:19:26.400 --> 00:19:30.680 a murder happens, you can in fact be convicted of 344 00:19:30.720 --> 00:19:33.240 the first gream murder itself. So if you're in a car, 345 00:19:33.279 --> 00:19:34.799 if you're sitting in the backseat of the car and 346 00:19:34.839 --> 00:19:36.640 you're part of it and you know what's happening, and 347 00:19:36.680 --> 00:19:39.160 the guy goes in and kills the owner of the 348 00:19:39.519 --> 00:19:42.680 seven to eleven, you're guilty of murder. Firs su gream 349 00:19:42.759 --> 00:19:45.200 murder just as much as he is, and you could 350 00:19:45.240 --> 00:19:47.799 be sentenced to death. So what happened was, when they 351 00:19:47.799 --> 00:19:51.400 were driving around with the two Bennett teenagers, Charlie told 352 00:19:51.480 --> 00:19:55.119 Carol to take some money from Bobby Jones's wallet and 353 00:19:55.240 --> 00:19:57.400 put it in his What she did, she admitted it. 354 00:19:57.559 --> 00:19:59.680 She took his wallet, took four or five bucks out, 355 00:19:59.680 --> 00:20:03.039 put it Charlie's walk. So that's the felony. And so 356 00:20:03.240 --> 00:20:05.720 based on that, they charged her with first degree murder 357 00:20:05.839 --> 00:20:08.599 under the felling murder rule, and she could have been 358 00:20:08.640 --> 00:20:12.279 executed because of that. Since then, the Supreme Court has 359 00:20:12.359 --> 00:20:15.640 held that you cannot be sentenced to death under the 360 00:20:15.640 --> 00:20:18.799 fellony murdered rule unless you were involved in the murder itself. 361 00:20:18.839 --> 00:20:21.039 You can be convicted it's ending light in prison, but 362 00:20:21.119 --> 00:20:24.079 you can't be sentenced to death for felling murder unless 363 00:20:24.119 --> 00:20:26.200 you were part of the crime of murder. 364 00:20:26.359 --> 00:20:31.039 Let's also talk about the other crimes that Charlie eventually 365 00:20:31.480 --> 00:20:34.720 says that Carol is responsible for or involved with in 366 00:20:34.839 --> 00:20:38.400 terms of murder, but also when you talk about this 367 00:20:38.440 --> 00:20:42.559 crucial moment and the reason why Charlie changes his mind 368 00:20:42.640 --> 00:20:45.839 so dramatically in his confession and blaming Carrol. 369 00:20:46.160 --> 00:20:48.839 When he was picked up up in the bad Lands, 370 00:20:48.880 --> 00:20:51.440 he said, leave the girl alone. She had nothing to 371 00:20:51.480 --> 00:20:53.920 do with it. He gave a written statement, in an 372 00:20:54.000 --> 00:20:56.440 oral statement that night he said the same thing. He 373 00:20:56.559 --> 00:20:59.440 drove to Lincoln the next day and he said the 374 00:20:59.440 --> 00:21:03.519 same thing, though he did scratch on a jailhouse wall 375 00:21:04.160 --> 00:21:07.640 in Gearring, Nebraska, that Carol had killed some people. When 376 00:21:07.680 --> 00:21:12.920 he then gave formal statements under oath and recorded, he 377 00:21:13.039 --> 00:21:15.839 swore that she was not at home, that she had 378 00:21:15.880 --> 00:21:18.519 nothing to do with any of the killings, and that's 379 00:21:18.519 --> 00:21:21.640 where he testifies to in his trial. As she's coming 380 00:21:21.720 --> 00:21:25.079 to trial, he starts to ship and say that at 381 00:21:25.079 --> 00:21:27.319 one point or another he says that she was home 382 00:21:27.359 --> 00:21:30.319 and had in fact murdered her little sister. He says 383 00:21:30.400 --> 00:21:34.480 that she murdered Carol King, one of the teenagers outside 384 00:21:34.480 --> 00:21:38.400 of Bennett, and he also by implication, accuses her of 385 00:21:38.519 --> 00:21:42.000 murdering the maid in the warhouse. So he's just kind 386 00:21:42.000 --> 00:21:44.359 of wrapping everything up, and he gets the real harm 387 00:21:44.400 --> 00:21:48.519 to Carol from all that was that these accusations made 388 00:21:48.599 --> 00:21:51.680 headlines in the Lincoln paper. And she's sitting there waiting 389 00:21:51.720 --> 00:21:54.519 for six months and then rolling all these headlines through 390 00:21:54.599 --> 00:21:58.559 Charlie's trial about her. You know, they completely paint the 391 00:21:58.599 --> 00:22:02.359 picture that she is complicit in the curent so she 392 00:22:02.480 --> 00:22:05.279 doesn't really have a chance for a fair trial, however 393 00:22:05.319 --> 00:22:08.440 you look at it. But Charlie changed his mind about it, 394 00:22:08.519 --> 00:22:12.079 I think because my view is that Carol was supposed 395 00:22:12.079 --> 00:22:14.759 to go with him, and that became a theme that 396 00:22:14.880 --> 00:22:17.880 was picked up. He said to one of his lawyers, 397 00:22:18.000 --> 00:22:21.480 I'm happy to be electrocuted, go to the chair, as 398 00:22:21.519 --> 00:22:24.119 long as Carol's sitting on my lap. And I think 399 00:22:24.200 --> 00:22:27.200 that's why he started, why he turned on hers. It 400 00:22:27.200 --> 00:22:30.119 occurred to him that she might not get the death penalty, and. 401 00:22:30.079 --> 00:22:32.720