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<v Speaker 1>Meaning a light man like this man letting butterfly flapping

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<v Speaker 1>his wing.

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<v Speaker 2>They've down in a forest. Man, it gonna cause the

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<v Speaker 2>tree fall, letting five thousand miles away.

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<v Speaker 1>Many nobody seen nobody else. You might seem like you

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<v Speaker 1>don't need to know, man, You don't They like you

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<v Speaker 1>followed another story and you got back to protect thats win.

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<v Speaker 1>Man got back and dag on the panel.

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<v Speaker 2>Man, Now you don't don't better Mankay. Today's episode is

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<v Speaker 2>something slightly different to an interview I did with Conscious

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<v Speaker 2>carecle Ernst ben Zeel, South African political commentator and activist

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<v Speaker 2>about a week and a half ago, discussing what I

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<v Speaker 2>think is an interesting question, how much is what we

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<v Speaker 2>do talking on the internet actually matter? And they're multiple

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<v Speaker 2>levels to it, because obviously we understand that us saying

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<v Speaker 2>something doesn't directly produce policy. Look, all of the angst

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<v Speaker 2>over both the start and then the sensation of the

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<v Speaker 2>Iran war seemingly has done little. Now it's difficult to

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<v Speaker 2>say to what degree we do impacts internal party politics.

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<v Speaker 2>There's at least some of it, right, we see this

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<v Speaker 2>in the negative all the time. Our guys get perched,

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<v Speaker 2>people who have unacceptable quote unquote opinions get pushed out,

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<v Speaker 2>which indicates, well, there must at least be people with

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<v Speaker 2>our opinions trying to get close to power. That makes sense.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, look, I also see the email list for

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<v Speaker 2>my substack. There are some names in there who knows

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<v Speaker 2>what they get from it. Now they're taking their marching

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<v Speaker 2>orders from me. But there's something there for the real problem, right,

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<v Speaker 2>it's how politics actually works. We understand that politics is

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<v Speaker 2>top down, not bottom up. So the idea that you

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<v Speaker 2>can simply make something popular and it will affect politics, well,

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<v Speaker 2>clearly that is in the case. We have a number

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<v Speaker 2>of case studies on this where we see the exact

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<v Speaker 2>opposite gay marriage, row versus Wade, integration, all things in

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<v Speaker 2>the US that were unpopular until they were legal and

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<v Speaker 2>then they became popular. They see similar stuff with we legalization.

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<v Speaker 2>But a culture war does matter to at least some degree.

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<v Speaker 2>We're seeing in real time ideas being mainstreamed. We're seeing

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<v Speaker 2>things that were previously off limits brought into politics, and

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<v Speaker 2>this has produced different results. Go back to the defeat

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<v Speaker 2>of Thomas Massey. He was certainly defeated, but it brings

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<v Speaker 2>up an important point that you need a bare fig

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<v Speaker 2>leaf of legitimacy. When that has gone, it becomes very

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<v Speaker 2>differentficult to run a political system, a problem we're seeing now.

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<v Speaker 2>So I don't know right to what degree, what percentage,

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<v Speaker 2>what we do matters, But what I am quite sure

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<v Speaker 2>about is that who's in the audience matters. You can

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<v Speaker 2>look at someone like Alex Jones, for example, who has

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<v Speaker 2>a huge audience but doesn't seem to be able to

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<v Speaker 2>get the government to do what he wants. A wide

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<v Speaker 2>dispersed audience of people without power isn't particularly helpful. Now,

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<v Speaker 2>compare and contrasts that to NPR the New York Times

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<v Speaker 2>comparatively small audiences declining audiences. Trump himself has been loudly

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<v Speaker 2>growing this. But they are the paper of record, They

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<v Speaker 2>are legitimate and important. People read what they have to say.

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<v Speaker 2>I think that there is an information advantage in what

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<v Speaker 2>we do. There are things here that are true that

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<v Speaker 2>you can't talk about elsewhere, that are everboden. And so

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<v Speaker 2>we are seeing, at least in some small part, people

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<v Speaker 2>with a vested interest in an information advantage. Venture capitalists,

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<v Speaker 2>guys who are paid to be on the cutting edge

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<v Speaker 2>infiltrating these circles for good or for ill. But that's

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<v Speaker 2>a leading indicator in my mind that there's something here.

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<v Speaker 2>Now again, I don't think that means people power, we

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<v Speaker 2>will reach a fifty plus one percent. But if I

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<v Speaker 2>didn't think this mattered, if I didn't think there was

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<v Speaker 2>a connection between the online space and reality, I wouldn't

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<v Speaker 2>be doing this now. It's important to say that online

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<v Speaker 2>activism and in real life activism are not the same.

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<v Speaker 2>Ernst in this talks about documentaries he's made with tens

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<v Speaker 2>of millions of views that resulted in a handful less

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<v Speaker 2>than ten members of his political organization, whereas he could

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<v Speaker 2>go to a small town twenty thousand people give a

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<v Speaker 2>speech and end up with double that. So are not

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<v Speaker 2>the same thing. And it's also distorted by the fact

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<v Speaker 2>that there is money to be made in this. There

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<v Speaker 2>are people looking to advance themselves the expense of any message.

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<v Speaker 2>I think that question of do what we is what

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<v Speaker 2>we're doing important, It's one we should ask ourselves because

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<v Speaker 2>look like there is a certain aspect of this that's entertainment.

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<v Speaker 2>You're basically using a podcast, using a video entertainment or

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<v Speaker 2>companionship company, right like Boomer's watching the television, And that's

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<v Speaker 2>not the end of the world. Right, that's not bad.

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<v Speaker 2>Not everything needs to be super serious, Not everything needs

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<v Speaker 2>to be didactic, because we understand that there is also

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<v Speaker 2>a war for your sanity, to be perfectly honest, a

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<v Speaker 2>deliberate desire to make you blackpilled, insane and impotent, and

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<v Speaker 2>so an antidote to that is useful in and of itself.

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<v Speaker 2>But remember, and this is a quote I'm stealing from

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<v Speaker 2>Dave Green, the point of the Internet is not to

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<v Speaker 2>win the Internet. Point of the Internet is to get

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<v Speaker 2>you to do something in real life, to get you

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<v Speaker 2>out of the bugman box, the cube, the wage cage,

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<v Speaker 2>as it were. And I think that that's an important

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<v Speaker 2>social function. So anyway, here is my interview with Ernst.

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<v Speaker 2>Back to regularly scheduled programming on Monday, as per usual,

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<v Speaker 2>episode sponsored by Fox and Sun's Coffee. It's good coffee.

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<v Speaker 2>I drink it almost every day. Use the code Jay

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<v Speaker 2>Burden you get some percentage off and also some one

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<v Speaker 2>of the episodes early in NED free. Just head over

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<v Speaker 2>to Patreon, substack or gum Road look for the Jay

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<v Speaker 2>Burton Show. Thank you.

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<v Speaker 1>Alright, Greetings from the Dark Continent. Conscious character here or

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<v Speaker 1>at fun Sale here to shine a lights on the

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<v Speaker 1>goings on down south via at the southern tip of Africa.

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<v Speaker 1>But tonight we're going to be shining a light on

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<v Speaker 1>some ideas and some concepts rather than what's happening in

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<v Speaker 1>a particular place. And joining me tonight for tonight's Tonight's

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<v Speaker 1>theme is Jay Burden. He's been a regular guest on

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<v Speaker 1>this channel. I've also been a regular guest on his show,

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<v Speaker 1>so I think there's a lot of cross pollination with

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<v Speaker 1>the audiences. So I assume most of the people in

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<v Speaker 1>my audience will already recognize who you are. But for

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<v Speaker 1>those who don't know, Jay Burden is a political and

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<v Speaker 1>cultural commentator who lives in America, and he analyzes and

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<v Speaker 1>unpacks many of the phenomena that we see in the

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<v Speaker 1>world around us, in particular American politics and some international

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<v Speaker 1>politics as well, with the help of a very long

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<v Speaker 1>laundry list of fantastic guests that he has on his show.

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<v Speaker 1>So Jay, welcome back, and I'm looking forward tonight's conversation.

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<v Speaker 1>How are you doing.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm doing quite well again. Thank you for having me on.

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<v Speaker 2>You're an I conversation. Our conversations are some of my

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<v Speaker 2>favorite and there are things I stole from you five

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<v Speaker 2>years ago that I am still using constantly. So I

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<v Speaker 2>think that there's a very productive kind of interplay between

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<v Speaker 2>our channels, our work, and so I'm really glad to

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<v Speaker 2>be here again.

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<v Speaker 1>Man, Well, thank you very much for your time. I'm

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<v Speaker 1>glad we could make the time zone difference work. That's

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<v Speaker 1>always the only real hurdle for making these types of

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<v Speaker 1>conversations happen so to the audience. As you can judge

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<v Speaker 1>by the title of tonight's episode, how much does what

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<v Speaker 1>happens online influence real life? You can see that's the theme.

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<v Speaker 1>But Jay, that's the question that I actually want to

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<v Speaker 1>start off our conversation with, and that's the internet proverbal

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<v Speaker 1>Internet saying that we all know, and that is that

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<v Speaker 1>the Internet is not real life. It's a bit of

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<v Speaker 1>a twenty tens ism, maybe two thousands ASM. I don't

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<v Speaker 1>know exactly when it was at its peak of popularity.

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<v Speaker 1>But what's your what is your what are your thoughts

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<v Speaker 1>on that thesis that is so common online from left

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<v Speaker 1>wing to right wing circles, just across the entire spectrum.

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<v Speaker 1>There seems to be this quote unquote common knowledge that

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<v Speaker 1>the Internet is not real life, even though some people's

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<v Speaker 1>actions online don't reflect that they actually buy into that idea.

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<v Speaker 1>Where do you stand on it?

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<v Speaker 2>So obviously there's a kernel of truth to it. One

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<v Speaker 2>of the things the Internet has done to culture is

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<v Speaker 2>it's completely and tootally fragmented it. I mean, look, the

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<v Speaker 2>top call of duty streamer in the world is probably

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<v Speaker 2>a very wealthy man who has more influence than you

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<v Speaker 2>or I ever will. But I don't know who that is,

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<v Speaker 2>and I guarantee if I showed you a photo of

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<v Speaker 2>that man, you would have no idea who it is. Right,

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<v Speaker 2>in that sense, the Internet is not real life. But

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<v Speaker 2>what we've seen at kind of increasing rapidity is that

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<v Speaker 2>the Internet in real life are converging. Obviously, our enemies,

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<v Speaker 2>foreign and domestic understand this. Just look at the attempt

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<v Speaker 2>on speech control and on internet control we've seen within

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<v Speaker 2>the EU and in Britain. They understand that if a video,

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<v Speaker 2>for instance, a video that recently went massively viral of

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<v Speaker 2>a migrant trying to save someone's head off, that produces

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<v Speaker 2>real world consequences that can jump it becomes big online.

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<v Speaker 2>And then there are you know, lads throwing bins at

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<v Speaker 2>policemen there's a correlation there, so we understand that there

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<v Speaker 2>are extremes on both ends. As regards the explicitly political content,

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<v Speaker 2>is there a one to one correlation. I have a

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<v Speaker 2>big tweet and Donald Trump signs the law? I mean

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<v Speaker 2>obviously not. I mean I've realized that we don't want

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<v Speaker 2>to get into specifics. It can be boring and kind

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<v Speaker 2>of annoying. But the Iran war is helpful because his base,

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<v Speaker 2>particularly online, has not been happy about that, and yet

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<v Speaker 2>it still happened, right, is continuing to happen in some form,

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<v Speaker 2>So we understand that there's a disconnect there. But what

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<v Speaker 2>the Internet does have the ability to do is to

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<v Speaker 2>shift culture, right, is to shift the Overton window and

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<v Speaker 2>the og Alt writers, the guys who are out kind

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<v Speaker 2>of before you and I were blazing the trail, I

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<v Speaker 2>think over relied on that. The idea was we can

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<v Speaker 2>introduce new ideas into the mainstream and create a cultural

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<v Speaker 2>shift that will enable us to do whatever they wanted, right,

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<v Speaker 2>transform the nation, get a job as a commentator, and

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<v Speaker 2>that didn't work. Were they wrong? No, they were right,

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<v Speaker 2>but it was just over a much longer time span

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<v Speaker 2>than they could have expected. You read back a lot

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<v Speaker 2>of those older writers from that time, and it's sort

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<v Speaker 2>of quaint, you know. It's the ideas that shure, we're

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<v Speaker 2>incredibly revolutionary in twenty fourteen, but are now at least

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<v Speaker 2>on the right side of the political spectrum, sort of

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<v Speaker 2>received wisdom. We've all internalized them, even if we'd never read.

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<v Speaker 2>I think of guys like you know, all type who

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<v Speaker 2>I don't have anything against. I'm not picking on him,

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<v Speaker 2>but there are essays that at the time were completely

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<v Speaker 2>and totally revolutionary that now you know, someone who went

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<v Speaker 2>back and read these a year or two ago. It's

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<v Speaker 2>not that they're not good. They are, but that information

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<v Speaker 2>has been so widely disseminated that it's sort of like

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<v Speaker 2>watching the matrix for the first time in twenty twenty.

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<v Speaker 2>I've seen this before, you know. That doesn't take away

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<v Speaker 2>from how groundbreaking the original was. So I understand that

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<v Speaker 2>that assumption of the OG writers was incorrect. They all

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<v Speaker 2>got their lives through it to one degree or another,

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<v Speaker 2>because they were correct they were going to shift culture,

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<v Speaker 2>but not in a timeframe helped them from losing their jobs,

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<v Speaker 2>losing their social lives, and sort of being ruined by

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<v Speaker 2>the state. So the internet does affect culture. Now does

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<v Speaker 2>culture affect politics? Not immediately right, We're seeing another You've

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<v Speaker 2>seen this in American politics with the fracturing megabase, is

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<v Speaker 2>that a significant percentage of the base is unhappy with

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<v Speaker 2>the direction of the party, and yet the party continues

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<v Speaker 2>on full steam ahead. And so, to be honest, what

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<v Speaker 2>I think that we're seeing is one a cultural lack, right,

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<v Speaker 2>a difference between when an idea becomes popular on the

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<v Speaker 2>Internet and it hits the point where it was kind

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<v Speaker 2>of spread through culture. But also we have this problem

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<v Speaker 2>of well, power is not bottom up, it's top down. Now,

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<v Speaker 2>what our enemies understand is that culture does select for

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<v Speaker 2>those guys at the top. You know how many of

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<v Speaker 2>us have made fun of boomers, whether conservative or liberal,

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<v Speaker 2>for having certain inherent cultural ideas baked into them that

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<v Speaker 2>they take and apply to policy, even when that contradicts

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<v Speaker 2>their stated values. So at least on that perspective, really

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<v Speaker 2>the question is does culture matter? Right? The Internet is

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<v Speaker 2>a forum for culture. It produces subcultures and eventually those

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<v Speaker 2>hit meat space, as they used to say, But how

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<v Speaker 2>do we go from cultural sentiment to cultural change? I

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<v Speaker 2>mean to put a bone on it, ernest and then

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<v Speaker 2>I'll kick it back to you. That's the million dollar question, right.

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<v Speaker 1>I do agree with that thesis to a large extent.

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<v Speaker 1>I think your your summation of the Internet as an

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<v Speaker 1>information dissemination machine is right on the money. I mean,

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<v Speaker 1>the Internet is a fantastic vehicle for getting good and

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<v Speaker 1>bad information to real people. So to start answering that

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<v Speaker 1>question of is the Internet real life, Well, it gets

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<v Speaker 1>real information and fake information to real people very effectively

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<v Speaker 1>that we've seen. I mean, if that was not the case,

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<v Speaker 1>we would not see as hard a push for Internet

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<v Speaker 1>censorship if the Internet was a terrible information dissemination means.

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<v Speaker 1>But well, I'm the same, I.

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<v Speaker 2>Wouldn't be tat right, Like, if there was simply nothing

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<v Speaker 2>valuable to be found, you and I would never have connected,

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<v Speaker 2>right anyway, Sorry, continue.

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<v Speaker 1>Absolutely so, the Internet absolutely gets information to real people

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<v Speaker 1>and real individuals, and that affects their thoughts and it

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<v Speaker 1>affects the way that they see the world. I think

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<v Speaker 1>a lot of us have had our thoughts and opinions

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<v Speaker 1>and perspectives shifted through well. I think all of us,

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<v Speaker 1>it's very not even speculative to say this, have had

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<v Speaker 1>information that we've seen on the Internet has changed the

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<v Speaker 1>way that we see the world to different degrees. But

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<v Speaker 1>I remain where my skepticism comes in is how much

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<v Speaker 1>the Internet and that dissemination of information effect affects collective action.

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<v Speaker 1>So we see a lot of what I mean, the

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<v Speaker 1>classic slang would be people quote unquote waking up to

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<v Speaker 1>whatever topic. I mean. The list is endless of what

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<v Speaker 1>different people of different ideologies think the masses need to

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<v Speaker 1>quote unquote wake up to what secret information, And we

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<v Speaker 1>see a lot of that. It's such a it's become

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<v Speaker 1>such a cliche of just constantly saying we were witnessing

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<v Speaker 1>the masses wake up, because there's this logic of if

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<v Speaker 1>you just bombard people with enough good arguments the battle

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<v Speaker 1>of ideas. If you win the battle of ideas, you

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<v Speaker 1>win the battle of action. I don't think that connection

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<v Speaker 1>is as easy to prove in regards to having the

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<v Speaker 1>best arguments and having the best information and being the

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<v Speaker 1>most effective at disseminating information and that translating into real

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<v Speaker 1>world collective action. Maybe a final little caveat there. I

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<v Speaker 1>do think that the Internet is very good at inspiring

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<v Speaker 1>individual action, so and often in evil ways. We see this.

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<v Speaker 1>In the most classic example would be mass shooters, mass

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<v Speaker 1>casualty events, terrorism. A lot of these mass shooters of

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<v Speaker 1>the past few years are very, very clearly, almost exclusively

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<v Speaker 1>terminally online individuals, people that have had their entire worldview

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<v Speaker 1>warped by what they have worked consuming online. We are

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<v Speaker 1>increasingly seeing online jargon and lingo bleed into the manifestos

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<v Speaker 1>of these people themselves. So there's an endless list of

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<v Speaker 1>case studies of individuals being driven into action of an

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<v Speaker 1>evil action by their online concentsumption habits. But I've not

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<v Speaker 1>seen as much collective action in regards to that dissemination

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<v Speaker 1>function of the Internet inspiring a lot of people to

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<v Speaker 1>do things in the real world that have lasting impact.

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<v Speaker 1>As you've mentioned the Belfast protests now the most recent example.

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<v Speaker 1>We see people getting angry, we see people burning garbage bins,

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<v Speaker 1>we see people showing their rage for a few days

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<v Speaker 1>and then it's gone again. So that's that seems to

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<v Speaker 1>me in general, to be the limit of real world

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<v Speaker 1>organization and action inspired by the dissemination machine called the Internet.

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<v Speaker 2>And this is a point I actually I completely agree

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<v Speaker 2>with you. I think that there are kind of two things,

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<v Speaker 2>which is one, can you can you translate Internet outrage

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<v Speaker 2>into a political movement and clearly not right. How many

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<v Speaker 2>of these horrendous events have happened what has changed? But

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<v Speaker 2>what I do think that you have is you have

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<v Speaker 2>the ability to use the Internet as an organizational tool

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<v Speaker 2>to connect, to find something to plug yourself into. I

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<v Speaker 2>know that organizations you were a part of have experienced this. Right,

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<v Speaker 2>you can get your message out, particularly if it's contrary

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<v Speaker 2>to the wishes of state media. And sure you may

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<v Speaker 2>get you know, four hundred thousand likes on a post,

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<v Speaker 2>and of those four hundred thousand people, of course, the

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<v Speaker 2>vast majority just scroll on to whatever's next on their feed.

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<v Speaker 2>But it's a funnel, right, you can get someone okay,

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<v Speaker 2>from you know, one touch to you know, engaging with

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<v Speaker 2>what you put out to in doing something simple like

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<v Speaker 2>you know, donating to an organization to joining as a member. Right,

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<v Speaker 2>something that you can basically take someone who is unconnected, unaffiliated,

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<v Speaker 2>uninterested and turn them into someone doing something real like

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<v Speaker 2>the organization I'm a part of, the Old Glory Club

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<v Speaker 2>was a desire to do exactly this, to take something

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<v Speaker 2>based on the Internet, you know, a million different fractional

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<v Speaker 2>group chats like an archipelago and say all right, like, well,

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<v Speaker 2>let's meet up. We've got fifteen guys in your city,

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<v Speaker 2>start something, do something, see each other. And look, that

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<v Speaker 2>does not a country, save at least initially. But if

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<v Speaker 2>we're looking at how to bridge the gap between the

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<v Speaker 2>sort of memetic ecosystem and the one outside, well that

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<v Speaker 2>can be done.

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<v Speaker 1>Right.

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<v Speaker 2>It's a it's a relatively new project. It's not cooked,

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<v Speaker 2>it's not done yet, but it's showing promise. I don't

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<v Speaker 2>know how many numbers I'm allowed to say, but we

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<v Speaker 2>have basically grown by over one hundred times and you

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<v Speaker 2>know the last four years, and okay, you know, against

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<v Speaker 2>a population of nearly four hundred million, that is it huge.

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<v Speaker 2>But it is more influenced than simply you know, a podcast, right,

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<v Speaker 2>And I think it also what really depends on how

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<v Speaker 2>much influence the Internet has is who's watching. So, for instance,

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<v Speaker 2>if you look at raw numbers, Alex Jones demolishes The

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<v Speaker 2>New York Times is much more readership, a much wider audience.

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<v Speaker 2>But when Alex Jones says something, do any politicians listen?

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<v Speaker 2>I mean maybe one or two when they were at home,

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<v Speaker 2>if they're looking for a laugh. But he doesn't have

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<v Speaker 2>that sort of power. Well, when The New York's Times

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<v Speaker 2>says something, it matters because of their readership. NPR, National

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<v Speaker 2>Public Radio in America, is another great example. They never

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<v Speaker 2>had huge viewership. There were never, never more people listening

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<v Speaker 2>to that than watching sports. But what type of people

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<v Speaker 2>right where does that information go and how is it incorporated?

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<v Speaker 2>And again, this is something that I think conservatives get

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<v Speaker 2>wrong often. You hear that phrase go woke, go broke,

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<v Speaker 2>and the assumption is if something is off putting to

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<v Speaker 2>the majority of people, it's going to be a failure. Answers, No,

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<v Speaker 2>it is, No, it doesn't because what matters is basically

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<v Speaker 2>the audience. Who is listening, whose ear you have from

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<v Speaker 2>a media perspective, And so you know, we've seen conservative

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<v Speaker 2>figures with huge audiences. You know, you think of pastors

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<v Speaker 2>like Billy Graham or you know Jerry Folwell in the

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<v Speaker 2>US from sort of a previous generation, and they were

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<v Speaker 2>unable to turn that into you know, lasting positive political change.

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<v Speaker 2>And if you doubt that popularity and politics are in

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<v Speaker 2>no way related, I mean just look at the example

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<v Speaker 2>of gay marriage in the US when it was handed

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<v Speaker 2>down as a ruling, the population was but roughly sixty

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<v Speaker 2>forty against. If it had gone to an election, it

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<v Speaker 2>would have been a blowout. But Power was listening to

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<v Speaker 2>someone different. They had different ideas, and so that's what

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<v Speaker 2>actually mattered. As regards the Internet, I think that it's

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<v Speaker 2>going to be interesting watching this generational divide. You know,

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<v Speaker 2>much has been made over for the boomers, and you know,

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<v Speaker 2>I don't want to descend into that, but what we're

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<v Speaker 2>seeing is sharply different media ecosystems. I think the average

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<v Speaker 2>age of a CNN viewer is in their mid to

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<v Speaker 2>late sixties. You know, these are not what generations below

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<v Speaker 2>the boomers are experiencing their children, even their relatively old children. Right,

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<v Speaker 2>people in their fifties. They still get information off the internet,

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<v Speaker 2>maybe in a different way than you or I do, earnest,

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<v Speaker 2>but it will be an interesting test case to see,

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<v Speaker 2>Oh well, when we finally have people who are getting

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<v Speaker 2>most of their information off the internet, and I realize

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<v Speaker 2>baby boomers and older people do use certain sites like Facebook,

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<v Speaker 2>but that's a conversation for another day. I think that

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<v Speaker 2>that will be profoundly interesting to watch that test case,

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<v Speaker 2>and I wonder if the relative amount of freedom on

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<v Speaker 2>the Internet will be curtailed precisely as it becomes more

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<v Speaker 2>and more important. Maybe a speculative point, but I'll kick

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<v Speaker 2>it back to you, conscious caricle.

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<v Speaker 1>I think one to add to a point that you

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<v Speaker 1>made there in regards to you've been able to effectively

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<v Speaker 1>organize for your organization online, I've been thinking about how

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<v Speaker 1>to quantify online activism versus real world activism and the

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<v Speaker 1>long term impact that you get in regards to building

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<v Speaker 1>something real. You mentioned now, just getting people angry doesn't

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<v Speaker 1>really count count for much, and that's a point that

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<v Speaker 1>I try to make as often as possible. I'm sometimes

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<v Speaker 1>the villain on the right side of the spectrum because

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<v Speaker 1>I tell people, I mean, just because people are burning

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<v Speaker 1>things in the street, that doesn't automatically translate into action

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<v Speaker 1>or translate into real world change. You're reading the formula wrong.

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<v Speaker 1>On the left side, the left does not get what

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<v Speaker 1>they want because they right, the riot is just kind

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<v Speaker 1>of like the little source that they pour over the

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<v Speaker 1>system to make it seem a bit more legitimate in God,

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<v Speaker 1>so how they get what they want. But that's not

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<v Speaker 1>how it works because rage is not magic. Like it's

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<v Speaker 1>not like you get people angry enough and then you

397
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<v Speaker 1>reach some point and then people are so angry they

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<v Speaker 1>get beyond angry, and then everything changes because you reach

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<v Speaker 1>that little rage meter to the right point. But when

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<v Speaker 1>I was to get back to trying to quantify how

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00:24:21.400 --> 00:24:25.039
<v Speaker 1>much what you do and say online affects the real world,

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00:24:26.160 --> 00:24:29.839
<v Speaker 1>it really comes down to, for me, at least, that

403
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<v Speaker 1>experience of having a nap where you nap for five minutes.

404
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<v Speaker 1>And we've all had that experience. You fall asleep for

405
00:24:35.759 --> 00:24:38.079
<v Speaker 1>five minutes and you shouldn't be napping, but you're just

406
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<v Speaker 1>very tired, and you live an entire lifetime and a

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<v Speaker 1>dream within that five minute nap, and then you wake

408
00:24:44.119 --> 00:24:47.559
<v Speaker 1>pick up and then you look at you're watching You

409
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<v Speaker 1>just you just dozed off for like five minutes. But

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<v Speaker 1>like in that dream, you were born, you went to school,

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<v Speaker 1>you went to university, you had an entire career, you

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<v Speaker 1>had a wife and family and children. That in that dream.

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<v Speaker 1>But it's just the relationship between dream time and real time,

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<v Speaker 1>I think is very close to internet activism versus real

415
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<v Speaker 1>world activism. The question is not does online activism the

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<v Speaker 1>effect the real world? Of course it does, but how

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<v Speaker 1>much does it? Well, maybe you should divide the amount

418
00:25:15.599 --> 00:25:18.240
<v Speaker 1>by ten or one hundred even one thousand. I'll give

419
00:25:18.240 --> 00:25:22.200
<v Speaker 1>you an example. So for example, last year, afri Forum,

420
00:25:22.200 --> 00:25:24.880
<v Speaker 1>the organization that I represent, made a documentary on South

421
00:25:24.920 --> 00:25:28.359
<v Speaker 1>Africa about far murders and expropriation of our compensation and

422
00:25:28.440 --> 00:25:31.960
<v Speaker 1>all the bad things happening in South Africa. And we

423
00:25:31.960 --> 00:25:34.599
<v Speaker 1>were very lucky enough that Elon Musk somehow got this

424
00:25:34.720 --> 00:25:37.319
<v Speaker 1>documentary into his hands or it appeared on his radar

425
00:25:37.680 --> 00:25:40.799
<v Speaker 1>and he shared it, and that documentary went from five

426
00:25:40.880 --> 00:25:44.319
<v Speaker 1>hundred thousand views to forty three million views, which is

427
00:25:44.359 --> 00:25:48.720
<v Speaker 1>almost the population of South Africa. But the amount of

428
00:25:48.799 --> 00:25:52.720
<v Speaker 1>people that joined as Africa Forum members from that documentary

429
00:25:52.759 --> 00:25:55.920
<v Speaker 1>being shared to forty three million people online, I think

430
00:25:55.920 --> 00:25:59.200
<v Speaker 1>we gained like ten new members, which is very very small.

431
00:25:59.480 --> 00:26:02.480
<v Speaker 1>But when I visited a small town in South Africa

432
00:26:02.559 --> 00:26:04.640
<v Speaker 1>earlier this year to do a speech there and talk

433
00:26:04.680 --> 00:26:07.880
<v Speaker 1>about here's how afric Forum is going to serve your

434
00:26:07.920 --> 00:26:09.880
<v Speaker 1>town if we open a branch here, and this is

435
00:26:09.880 --> 00:26:12.279
<v Speaker 1>how we're going to organize people to make a difference,

436
00:26:12.519 --> 00:26:15.119
<v Speaker 1>I signed up thirty new members even though I visited

437
00:26:15.160 --> 00:26:18.240
<v Speaker 1>a town of maybe ten to twenty thousand people. So

438
00:26:18.960 --> 00:26:23.759
<v Speaker 1>there's this massive discrepancy between a documentary of your organization

439
00:26:23.920 --> 00:26:26.720
<v Speaker 1>gets shared to forty three million people, you get ten

440
00:26:26.759 --> 00:26:29.319
<v Speaker 1>new members. That's a real world effect. But I visit

441
00:26:29.359 --> 00:26:31.440
<v Speaker 1>and do a speech in a town of Tenerand or

442
00:26:31.440 --> 00:26:34.039
<v Speaker 1>twenty thousand people, and I get thirty new members for

443
00:26:34.079 --> 00:26:38.359
<v Speaker 1>the organization. That discrepancy is massive. So I think that's

444
00:26:38.559 --> 00:26:42.240
<v Speaker 1>really where the conversation needs to be had in regards

445
00:26:42.279 --> 00:26:45.559
<v Speaker 1>to Yes, online activism can be quite effective, but you

446
00:26:45.680 --> 00:26:48.240
<v Speaker 1>have to do a whole lot of it to get

447
00:26:48.279 --> 00:26:52.119
<v Speaker 1>the same effect as real world activism, or rather real

448
00:26:52.119 --> 00:26:52.680
<v Speaker 1>world action.

449
00:26:54.440 --> 00:26:59.000
<v Speaker 2>So, and this might be a sensitive subject, so feel

450
00:26:59.039 --> 00:27:02.720
<v Speaker 2>free to disregard the question. But couldn't you look at

451
00:27:03.000 --> 00:27:08.400
<v Speaker 2>the changing relationship between your country and mind right, how

452
00:27:08.440 --> 00:27:13.519
<v Speaker 2>the Trump administration has treated South Africa, how it treated refugees.

453
00:27:14.480 --> 00:27:16.960
<v Speaker 2>Couldn't you say, well, that seems to be the result

454
00:27:17.000 --> 00:27:18.599
<v Speaker 2>of online activism.

455
00:27:19.039 --> 00:27:19.160
<v Speaker 1>Right.

456
00:27:19.200 --> 00:27:21.759
<v Speaker 2>A number of conservative people have through the last twenty

457
00:27:21.839 --> 00:27:25.079
<v Speaker 2>years seen, you know, what is happening in your country,

458
00:27:25.119 --> 00:27:27.799
<v Speaker 2>most likely on the internet. I mean, I doubt all

459
00:27:27.839 --> 00:27:31.039
<v Speaker 2>of them have been to South Africa, and that left

460
00:27:31.039 --> 00:27:32.759
<v Speaker 2>an impression on them. I said, you know what, this

461
00:27:32.880 --> 00:27:36.119
<v Speaker 2>is something worth doing. And regardless of if that changing

462
00:27:36.160 --> 00:27:38.000
<v Speaker 2>stance was good or bad, or if it should have

463
00:27:38.000 --> 00:27:40.480
<v Speaker 2>happened or not. Do you see what I'm saying? Those

464
00:27:40.480 --> 00:27:43.160
<v Speaker 2>are kind of two different orders of effect. You could

465
00:27:43.200 --> 00:27:46.079
<v Speaker 2>look at, you know, the primary driver of you know,

466
00:27:46.119 --> 00:27:48.599
<v Speaker 2>butts and seats, how many people you have recruited from

467
00:27:48.599 --> 00:27:52.559
<v Speaker 2>a documentary versus the last twenty years of you know,

468
00:27:52.599 --> 00:27:56.799
<v Speaker 2>Africans africaners on the internet, and then that produces, you know,

469
00:27:56.839 --> 00:28:01.759
<v Speaker 2>a pretty massive change with you know, the United States.

470
00:28:03.640 --> 00:28:05.599
<v Speaker 1>Now, I think that's a fantastic point. I think it

471
00:28:05.640 --> 00:28:10.160
<v Speaker 1>comes down to the nature of the effect on reality.

472
00:28:10.200 --> 00:28:13.759
<v Speaker 1>On the one side, you have a policy direction being

473
00:28:13.799 --> 00:28:17.440
<v Speaker 1>influenced by what is seen or information dissemination online. I

474
00:28:17.440 --> 00:28:21.119
<v Speaker 1>think that's undeniable. But then on the other side, the

475
00:28:21.480 --> 00:28:26.160
<v Speaker 1>case study of building an organization, organizing a movement, building

476
00:28:26.200 --> 00:28:29.960
<v Speaker 1>something tangible like an institution, that on the other side,

477
00:28:30.000 --> 00:28:33.519
<v Speaker 1>is much more effective if you're doing real world action

478
00:28:33.640 --> 00:28:36.240
<v Speaker 1>and building rather than trying to build it online and

479
00:28:36.279 --> 00:28:38.519
<v Speaker 1>then it kind of materializes. So I think that's where

480
00:28:38.519 --> 00:28:41.960
<v Speaker 1>the discrepancy comes in. On the one side, the online

481
00:28:42.000 --> 00:28:46.119
<v Speaker 1>dissemination of information might be very effective at influencing policy.

482
00:28:46.400 --> 00:28:48.960
<v Speaker 1>You're thinking through the lens of government and the bureaucracy

483
00:28:49.039 --> 00:28:51.920
<v Speaker 1>and through state power. But when it comes to building

484
00:28:52.000 --> 00:28:55.160
<v Speaker 1>non state power, it seems that building in the real

485
00:28:55.200 --> 00:28:58.640
<v Speaker 1>world and real world looking someone in the eye and

486
00:28:58.680 --> 00:29:01.240
<v Speaker 1>explaining how this is going to look seems to be

487
00:29:01.319 --> 00:29:04.839
<v Speaker 1>the king when it comes to real world organization, in

488
00:29:04.960 --> 00:29:07.440
<v Speaker 1>building organizations.

489
00:29:08.880 --> 00:29:10.799
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, a couple of things there. This reminds me very

490
00:29:10.880 --> 00:29:14.960
<v Speaker 2>much of you know, Dave Cream's Green's commentary on this,

491
00:29:15.680 --> 00:29:19.160
<v Speaker 2>and I realize referring to a speech that you know

492
00:29:19.200 --> 00:29:23.400
<v Speaker 2>you weren't there for Ernest is you know, probably poor podcasting,

493
00:29:23.880 --> 00:29:27.000
<v Speaker 2>but he gave a speech at this most recent conference

494
00:29:27.119 --> 00:29:31.519
<v Speaker 2>talking about exactly this, right, like what is the relationship

495
00:29:31.640 --> 00:29:35.839
<v Speaker 2>between you know, the internet and everything else, talking about

496
00:29:35.880 --> 00:29:40.000
<v Speaker 2>this kind of grifter cycle. You know that there's all

497
00:29:40.039 --> 00:29:45.519
<v Speaker 2>of this outrage that gets converted into either social or

498
00:29:45.640 --> 00:29:49.640
<v Speaker 2>literal currency by influencers, and it's made it really messy.

499
00:29:49.759 --> 00:29:51.240
<v Speaker 2>You know, I know you and I have had this

500
00:29:51.359 --> 00:29:55.680
<v Speaker 2>conversation before in real life about people using South Africa

501
00:29:55.799 --> 00:29:59.079
<v Speaker 2>to do that, right, using that what's happening in your

502
00:29:59.079 --> 00:30:01.680
<v Speaker 2>country to try and build a brand for themselves and

503
00:30:01.759 --> 00:30:06.440
<v Speaker 2>profit off of it. So that muddies the waters, right,

504
00:30:06.480 --> 00:30:09.799
<v Speaker 2>because you have this issue where well the incentives of

505
00:30:09.880 --> 00:30:12.960
<v Speaker 2>the Internet are not actually to use it to do

506
00:30:13.000 --> 00:30:17.839
<v Speaker 2>anything productive. They're to pour that attention back into your

507
00:30:17.880 --> 00:30:21.640
<v Speaker 2>personal stockpile of clout, if we can use kind of

508
00:30:21.839 --> 00:30:25.000
<v Speaker 2>an outdated term for it, and that creates a pull

509
00:30:25.079 --> 00:30:28.079
<v Speaker 2>on everything. Like certainly you see it in politics, but

510
00:30:28.440 --> 00:30:30.720
<v Speaker 2>if you have any other interest you follow on the internet,

511
00:30:30.759 --> 00:30:33.519
<v Speaker 2>you see the exact same thing. There always is that

512
00:30:33.920 --> 00:30:37.400
<v Speaker 2>ability to sort of blow up the conversation to advance

513
00:30:37.480 --> 00:30:40.119
<v Speaker 2>yourself whatever it's about, you know, whether it's about classic

514
00:30:40.200 --> 00:30:44.119
<v Speaker 2>cars or you know, immigration. But I think that Dave

515
00:30:44.160 --> 00:30:47.960
<v Speaker 2>Green's point, one that he made years ago that's always

516
00:30:47.960 --> 00:30:50.400
<v Speaker 2>stuck with me, is that the point of the Internet

517
00:30:50.480 --> 00:30:53.720
<v Speaker 2>isn't to win the internet, right. The point of Internet

518
00:30:53.759 --> 00:30:58.039
<v Speaker 2>activism isn't simply to accrue the most likes, clicks and follows.

519
00:30:58.839 --> 00:31:02.400
<v Speaker 2>It's to produce a change. And I think we can

520
00:31:02.440 --> 00:31:05.079
<v Speaker 2>see examples. I won't name names of people who have

521
00:31:05.200 --> 00:31:08.079
<v Speaker 2>and have it done that correctly. And when I say correctly,

522
00:31:08.079 --> 00:31:11.160
<v Speaker 2>I mean correctly graded on the scale of actually doing something,

523
00:31:11.319 --> 00:31:13.359
<v Speaker 2>not on making yourself very rich.

524
00:31:14.559 --> 00:31:19.039
<v Speaker 1>And they would be doing that effectively.

525
00:31:19.680 --> 00:31:23.119
<v Speaker 2>Yes, doing that effectively. And I think it bears repeating

526
00:31:23.160 --> 00:31:25.799
<v Speaker 2>that the incentive. Structure of the Internet is not designed

527
00:31:25.960 --> 00:31:31.400
<v Speaker 2>to produce effective action. It's designed to harvest attention, designed

528
00:31:31.400 --> 00:31:34.839
<v Speaker 2>to harvest outrage, and so I think we all have

529
00:31:34.880 --> 00:31:36.799
<v Speaker 2>to be careful with that. And I realize as someone

530
00:31:36.799 --> 00:31:39.519
<v Speaker 2>who is on the internet, you know this is someone

531
00:31:39.519 --> 00:31:44.079
<v Speaker 2>ironic advice for me, But look, there is information to

532
00:31:44.119 --> 00:31:47.119
<v Speaker 2>be had there, but it's also stealing your time, stealing

533
00:31:47.119 --> 00:31:50.200
<v Speaker 2>your attention, and so there's an advantage to know what's happening,

534
00:31:50.279 --> 00:31:52.880
<v Speaker 2>particularly if you're kind of a warrior in the mimetic space.

535
00:31:53.279 --> 00:31:55.640
<v Speaker 2>You know, you're writing, you're talking, whatever, you have to

536
00:31:55.680 --> 00:31:59.839
<v Speaker 2>know what's happening. But at the point at which it

537
00:31:59.880 --> 00:32:02.759
<v Speaker 2>is sapping your attention to do real things that matter,

538
00:32:03.200 --> 00:32:06.519
<v Speaker 2>where that you know that return on investment is much

539
00:32:06.599 --> 00:32:09.720
<v Speaker 2>much higher. As you said earlier, the difference between talking

540
00:32:09.759 --> 00:32:12.519
<v Speaker 2>to a town and creating a documentary with forty three

541
00:32:12.519 --> 00:32:16.440
<v Speaker 2>million views. I don't want to be rude to your

542
00:32:16.440 --> 00:32:18.880
<v Speaker 2>YouTube channel, Earns, but I feel like I'm pretty confident

543
00:32:18.880 --> 00:32:21.240
<v Speaker 2>in saying most of your videos don't get forty three

544
00:32:21.240 --> 00:32:28.359
<v Speaker 2>million views. Yes, yeah, neither to mine, obviously. But you know,

545
00:32:28.440 --> 00:32:30.799
<v Speaker 2>even if you're doing that calculation where you could just

546
00:32:30.880 --> 00:32:33.599
<v Speaker 2>hit a button and instantly reach forty three million people

547
00:32:33.920 --> 00:32:35.759
<v Speaker 2>versus all of the time it took you to go

548
00:32:35.839 --> 00:32:39.839
<v Speaker 2>to a pound of twenty thousand. Well, as you said,

549
00:32:39.920 --> 00:32:42.559
<v Speaker 2>the return to one is much greater than the other.

550
00:32:43.000 --> 00:32:45.480
<v Speaker 2>And at the point where the online activism which does

551
00:32:45.519 --> 00:32:48.400
<v Speaker 2>have an effect, you know, we've seen cultural attitudes shift

552
00:32:48.440 --> 00:32:53.319
<v Speaker 2>and that is certainly an important thing, but we're limited creatures.

553
00:32:53.400 --> 00:32:56.640
<v Speaker 2>Everything comes with an opportunity cost, and at the moment

554
00:32:56.680 --> 00:32:59.720
<v Speaker 2>where you're robbing Peter to pay Paul, you've decreased the

555
00:33:00.319 --> 00:33:03.359
<v Speaker 2>amount of effect you can. If you and I were

556
00:33:03.400 --> 00:33:05.640
<v Speaker 2>first year economic students, we could probably build out an

557
00:33:05.680 --> 00:33:08.519
<v Speaker 2>equation to find this. I have no interest in doing so,

558
00:33:08.799 --> 00:33:10.400
<v Speaker 2>but you see what I'm saying where there's sort of

559
00:33:10.720 --> 00:33:15.519
<v Speaker 2>a push pull relationship, right.

560
00:33:16.119 --> 00:33:19.200
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, And I think that's where a lot of people

561
00:33:19.559 --> 00:33:22.640
<v Speaker 1>get lost or a lot of attention is misdirected, where

562
00:33:23.039 --> 00:33:26.079
<v Speaker 1>the whole point is to get as much reach as possible.

563
00:33:26.119 --> 00:33:29.119
<v Speaker 1>It comes down to that flawed logic again, if we

564
00:33:29.279 --> 00:33:32.599
<v Speaker 1>wake up quote unquote enough people, then the change will

565
00:33:32.599 --> 00:33:34.799
<v Speaker 1>magically happen. And I think that's where when you talk

566
00:33:34.799 --> 00:33:40.160
<v Speaker 1>about trying to accumulate that online clock, accumulate that online

567
00:33:41.759 --> 00:33:45.720
<v Speaker 1>retweets or shares or whatever metric is used on this

568
00:33:45.839 --> 00:33:49.559
<v Speaker 1>particular social media website. I think that's where people get stuck.

569
00:33:49.640 --> 00:33:52.519
<v Speaker 1>Very talented, very smart people much more talented, talented and

570
00:33:52.559 --> 00:33:55.599
<v Speaker 1>smart than me, get stuck in just chasing. I just

571
00:33:55.599 --> 00:33:57.759
<v Speaker 1>need to reach as many people as possible. I need

572
00:33:57.799 --> 00:34:03.720
<v Speaker 1>to use a very very old term from the Internet's

573
00:34:03.720 --> 00:34:05.920
<v Speaker 1>skeptic era. I have to win the battle of ideas,

574
00:34:06.000 --> 00:34:08.679
<v Speaker 1>or the classical liberal idea of if we win the

575
00:34:08.719 --> 00:34:11.360
<v Speaker 1>battle of ideas, we win the battle of the real

576
00:34:11.400 --> 00:34:14.480
<v Speaker 1>world of meat space. And that has proven to be

577
00:34:14.760 --> 00:34:18.239
<v Speaker 1>very catastrophically false. You can have the best arguments, but

578
00:34:18.320 --> 00:34:21.000
<v Speaker 1>that's not going to make a difference. And to add

579
00:34:21.039 --> 00:34:23.559
<v Speaker 1>to that, you can have the most effective social media

580
00:34:23.639 --> 00:34:27.679
<v Speaker 1>strategy of gaming the algorithm, getting hit tweet after bang

581
00:34:27.719 --> 00:34:32.760
<v Speaker 1>it tweet after great gem posts, and still if you're

582
00:34:32.800 --> 00:34:37.199
<v Speaker 1>not effectively channeling that attention that you're garnering correctly, you're

583
00:34:37.199 --> 00:34:39.760
<v Speaker 1>not going to have any effect. And I mean here again,

584
00:34:39.800 --> 00:34:42.039
<v Speaker 1>I'm probably going to step on some toes and throw

585
00:34:42.159 --> 00:34:45.440
<v Speaker 1>some cold water on people's passion, but it's a point

586
00:34:45.440 --> 00:34:48.679
<v Speaker 1>that needs to be made. I've witnessed my fair share

587
00:34:48.760 --> 00:34:52.719
<v Speaker 1>of misidentified turning points and points of no return being

588
00:34:52.760 --> 00:34:56.559
<v Speaker 1>reached over the many years that I've been on the Internet.

589
00:34:56.840 --> 00:34:59.000
<v Speaker 1>I mean, my YouTube channel is ten years old, a

590
00:34:59.079 --> 00:35:01.840
<v Speaker 1>decade all this, so I've been around for a while,

591
00:35:02.800 --> 00:35:05.679
<v Speaker 1>and I've seen so many of these tragedies happening in

592
00:35:05.679 --> 00:35:09.159
<v Speaker 1>real life and then the entire Internet declaring this is

593
00:35:09.199 --> 00:35:11.000
<v Speaker 1>going to be in the history books as the point

594
00:35:11.000 --> 00:35:13.800
<v Speaker 1>where everything changed. And even just in the past year,

595
00:35:14.159 --> 00:35:17.320
<v Speaker 1>we've probably seen about six or seven or eight quote

596
00:35:17.360 --> 00:35:22.679
<v Speaker 1>unquote turning points. The tragic murder of Charlie Kirk, that

597
00:35:23.079 --> 00:35:26.719
<v Speaker 1>girl we're holding that wielding the axe and the knife

598
00:35:26.719 --> 00:35:31.320
<v Speaker 1>looking at the camera in Scotland, Ariano Zarutzka's tragic murder,

599
00:35:31.360 --> 00:35:35.760
<v Speaker 1>Henry Novak's tragic murder, and the riots and the protesting

600
00:35:35.760 --> 00:35:38.119
<v Speaker 1>in Belfast. The list goes on and on that just

601
00:35:38.159 --> 00:35:41.360
<v Speaker 1>in the past year, and each of these events, these

602
00:35:41.440 --> 00:35:45.199
<v Speaker 1>current things that ignite the passion and the rage online

603
00:35:45.719 --> 00:35:49.039
<v Speaker 1>always are framed as this is the point where everything changed,

604
00:35:49.039 --> 00:35:54.320
<v Speaker 1>where people got angry enough, where rage started working like magic,

605
00:35:54.360 --> 00:35:56.880
<v Speaker 1>and then people just got angry enough and things changed.

606
00:35:57.159 --> 00:35:59.679
<v Speaker 1>But to end the off the point, I've seen this

607
00:35:59.760 --> 00:36:03.320
<v Speaker 1>sad allegedly awaken more times than I can can't if

608
00:36:03.360 --> 00:36:04.480
<v Speaker 1>you get what I'm saying.

609
00:36:05.800 --> 00:36:09.920
<v Speaker 2>Well, And and to that point, this is a fundamental

610
00:36:09.960 --> 00:36:14.199
<v Speaker 2>misunderstanding of politics. As a friend of mine often says,

611
00:36:15.679 --> 00:36:18.840
<v Speaker 2>we're not Mormons. You know, we're not going door to door,

612
00:36:19.559 --> 00:36:21.360
<v Speaker 2>you know, asking for new recruits.

613
00:36:21.400 --> 00:36:21.559
<v Speaker 1>Here.

614
00:36:22.159 --> 00:36:26.719
<v Speaker 2>What matters is capable, competent people. That's who you're looking for.

615
00:36:27.280 --> 00:36:30.880
<v Speaker 2>And much like the American public was completely and totally

616
00:36:30.920 --> 00:36:35.000
<v Speaker 2>convinced on gay marriage. It went from being highly unpopular

617
00:36:35.199 --> 00:36:38.760
<v Speaker 2>too very popular in just a few I mean a

618
00:36:38.760 --> 00:36:39.400
<v Speaker 2>few years.

619
00:36:39.760 --> 00:36:39.960
<v Speaker 1>Right.

620
00:36:40.599 --> 00:36:42.679
<v Speaker 2>What happens is, or what needs to happen, is a

621
00:36:42.719 --> 00:36:45.920
<v Speaker 2>decision needs to be made, and you know, as elitist

622
00:36:45.960 --> 00:36:48.639
<v Speaker 2>as it sounds, most people will go along with it.

623
00:36:49.320 --> 00:36:53.119
<v Speaker 2>Right that whatever marginal group of people who went from

624
00:36:53.159 --> 00:36:56.159
<v Speaker 2>opposing gay marriage to supporting it. It's not like someone

625
00:36:56.239 --> 00:36:59.199
<v Speaker 2>sat down, you know, laid out the pros and cons

626
00:36:59.199 --> 00:37:04.360
<v Speaker 2>showed the mature. Well, it's just what was done. It's

627
00:37:04.400 --> 00:37:07.239
<v Speaker 2>the legitimate opinion. It's what the government says, it's what

628
00:37:07.280 --> 00:37:11.119
<v Speaker 2>your school says, it's what all good people say. And

629
00:37:11.199 --> 00:37:14.719
<v Speaker 2>so one of the advantages of the Internet is the

630
00:37:14.760 --> 00:37:19.760
<v Speaker 2>ability to connect capable competent people, right, the ability to

631
00:37:19.800 --> 00:37:23.159
<v Speaker 2>put someone in touch with a group of other people

632
00:37:23.159 --> 00:37:26.519
<v Speaker 2>who think like them. And sure, there's purity spiral and

633
00:37:26.760 --> 00:37:29.159
<v Speaker 2>there's sort of crabs in the bucket mentality you often

634
00:37:29.199 --> 00:37:31.480
<v Speaker 2>see in online space. But I think for a lot

635
00:37:31.519 --> 00:37:34.599
<v Speaker 2>of people like I'll use you as an example, Ernest,

636
00:37:34.840 --> 00:37:37.159
<v Speaker 2>I was, you know, living in kind of a crumbling

637
00:37:37.159 --> 00:37:42.239
<v Speaker 2>American city, literally walking down Monument Avenue in Richmond where

638
00:37:42.239 --> 00:37:45.840
<v Speaker 2>that famous statue of Lee was being pulled down, and

639
00:37:45.880 --> 00:37:48.639
<v Speaker 2>I listened to I think it was it was a

640
00:37:48.719 --> 00:37:50.880
<v Speaker 2>video essay you had done or maybe a podcast I

641
00:37:50.920 --> 00:37:55.199
<v Speaker 2>can't remember about the famous you know, digging a Trench article,

642
00:37:55.800 --> 00:37:58.280
<v Speaker 2>and I had this realization like, wait a minute, no,

643
00:37:58.400 --> 00:38:01.360
<v Speaker 2>I can't do this anymore. I'm not living here. There

644
00:38:01.360 --> 00:38:03.480
<v Speaker 2>were people who think like me, and I need to

645
00:38:03.519 --> 00:38:07.599
<v Speaker 2>find them. And so, okay, did that essay change the world?

646
00:38:08.199 --> 00:38:11.360
<v Speaker 2>I mean, I mean, I don't think that any president

647
00:38:11.440 --> 00:38:13.360
<v Speaker 2>read it. I don't think that the digging a Trench

648
00:38:13.440 --> 00:38:16.519
<v Speaker 2>law was passed. But that's a moment in my life

649
00:38:16.559 --> 00:38:18.039
<v Speaker 2>where I can look at where I say no, no, no.

650
00:38:18.159 --> 00:38:22.119
<v Speaker 2>That was a turning point, maybe not for culture, but

651
00:38:22.719 --> 00:38:25.599
<v Speaker 2>a point at which I decided I'm doing things differently.

652
00:38:26.119 --> 00:38:28.760
<v Speaker 2>We have to do something else, and my life is

653
00:38:28.800 --> 00:38:31.800
<v Speaker 2>completely and totally different. I have become you know, if

654
00:38:31.800 --> 00:38:34.519
<v Speaker 2>we if I can use the term, but I guess

655
00:38:34.639 --> 00:38:38.559
<v Speaker 2>technically an online activist, right, someone who does this professionally

656
00:38:38.599 --> 00:38:43.400
<v Speaker 2>whatever that's worth for And so okay, again it's not

657
00:38:43.480 --> 00:38:46.000
<v Speaker 2>a direct one to one, but if you're looking for

658
00:38:46.239 --> 00:38:48.960
<v Speaker 2>a recruiting pool of guys who realize, like, wait a minute,

659
00:38:49.000 --> 00:38:53.280
<v Speaker 2>there's something not right here. I could be making money,

660
00:38:53.360 --> 00:38:56.000
<v Speaker 2>I could be doing something, you know, trying to kind

661
00:38:56.000 --> 00:38:59.719
<v Speaker 2>of avoid these problems and keeping my head down. Well,

662
00:39:01.320 --> 00:39:03.639
<v Speaker 2>once they've realized or once they've seen on the Internet

663
00:39:03.760 --> 00:39:07.440
<v Speaker 2>or elsewhere, that no, this is a problem that needs addressing, well,

664
00:39:07.440 --> 00:39:10.719
<v Speaker 2>that shifts things, because this goes from being an extreme

665
00:39:10.800 --> 00:39:14.159
<v Speaker 2>minority of those kind of ultra far sighted individuals, the

666
00:39:14.199 --> 00:39:17.159
<v Speaker 2>guys who were here ten fifteen years ago kind of grazing,

667
00:39:17.840 --> 00:39:20.480
<v Speaker 2>gazing into their crystal balls, or even you know, if

668
00:39:20.519 --> 00:39:22.920
<v Speaker 2>you've had the pleasure to meet guys like you know,

669
00:39:23.039 --> 00:39:26.039
<v Speaker 2>my friend Peter Bremlo or Jattris, any one of these

670
00:39:26.039 --> 00:39:29.039
<v Speaker 2>guys who are the good boomers who were forty years

671
00:39:29.039 --> 00:39:32.679
<v Speaker 2>ahead of all of us, that's an extreme minority talent, right,

672
00:39:32.760 --> 00:39:35.559
<v Speaker 2>The ability to see you know way in advance that

673
00:39:35.599 --> 00:39:37.760
<v Speaker 2>this is going to go badly, But when it is

674
00:39:37.880 --> 00:39:40.480
<v Speaker 2>going badly, when something needs to be mended, needs to

675
00:39:40.519 --> 00:39:44.280
<v Speaker 2>be fixed. And there are a great number of institutions

676
00:39:44.360 --> 00:39:48.280
<v Speaker 2>media companies specifically designed to make sure you never notice

677
00:39:48.280 --> 00:39:51.719
<v Speaker 2>something is wrong, even though simply on the personal level,

678
00:39:51.880 --> 00:39:53.519
<v Speaker 2>like Ernest, if I never got on the internet, it

679
00:39:53.519 --> 00:39:55.760
<v Speaker 2>probably would have been better for my soul, and let's

680
00:39:55.800 --> 00:39:58.920
<v Speaker 2>be honest, for many other people as well. But if

681
00:39:58.960 --> 00:40:01.760
<v Speaker 2>I had simply heard that essay never talk to you,

682
00:40:01.920 --> 00:40:04.920
<v Speaker 2>never went on the Internet again, but decided to move

683
00:40:04.960 --> 00:40:08.440
<v Speaker 2>back to my hometown, the church that I grew up

684
00:40:08.440 --> 00:40:12.079
<v Speaker 2>at and marry someone, well, my life would have been better.

685
00:40:12.159 --> 00:40:14.199
<v Speaker 2>It would have been changed, instead of living in some

686
00:40:15.400 --> 00:40:18.920
<v Speaker 2>godless hell hole. Right, So it does matter. There is

687
00:40:18.960 --> 00:40:21.840
<v Speaker 2>a connection, But I think what we're really coming down

688
00:40:21.880 --> 00:40:25.239
<v Speaker 2>to is that there is not a huge correlation between

689
00:40:25.400 --> 00:40:29.360
<v Speaker 2>social media attention, social media clicks, and anything changing. Now,

690
00:40:29.400 --> 00:40:31.960
<v Speaker 2>part of that's content. Why is it being put out?

691
00:40:32.320 --> 00:40:34.519
<v Speaker 2>Is it being put out to cash in on that

692
00:40:34.559 --> 00:40:37.800
<v Speaker 2>sort of raige cycle or is it designed to produce change?

693
00:40:38.280 --> 00:40:41.400
<v Speaker 2>And then also I think the numbers game you're talking

694
00:40:41.400 --> 00:40:45.239
<v Speaker 2>about is entirely accurate. You know, when you're going to

695
00:40:45.440 --> 00:40:49.719
<v Speaker 2>forty three million random people, who knows how many of

696
00:40:49.760 --> 00:40:52.599
<v Speaker 2>them watched the video at all? Who knows how many

697
00:40:52.639 --> 00:40:55.679
<v Speaker 2>of them watched it and hated it they said, good,

698
00:40:55.880 --> 00:40:58.480
<v Speaker 2>I'm glad it happening, versus how many of them are

699
00:40:58.519 --> 00:41:01.239
<v Speaker 2>Cambodian rice farmers, who, to be honest, have no idea

700
00:41:01.280 --> 00:41:05.000
<v Speaker 2>what's going on, nor should they. Right, it's a wide,

701
00:41:05.000 --> 00:41:07.559
<v Speaker 2>wide net. And look, I don't pretend to know those

702
00:41:07.599 --> 00:41:11.559
<v Speaker 2>ten guys who it worked for. But if one of

703
00:41:11.599 --> 00:41:14.480
<v Speaker 2>those ten guys you know is that you know, one

704
00:41:14.559 --> 00:41:18.280
<v Speaker 2>hundred and thirty IQ guy needed to make the breakthrough

705
00:41:18.880 --> 00:41:21.239
<v Speaker 2>or became a leader, it's like, well that was a

706
00:41:21.239 --> 00:41:22.000
<v Speaker 2>good investment.

707
00:41:22.519 --> 00:41:22.800
<v Speaker 1>Right.

708
00:41:22.920 --> 00:41:25.199
<v Speaker 2>And then we take the cultural question, which is why

709
00:41:25.280 --> 00:41:29.320
<v Speaker 2>are American political elites on the conservative side, why do

710
00:41:29.360 --> 00:41:32.400
<v Speaker 2>they even care about South Africa? Well, there's kind of

711
00:41:32.480 --> 00:41:35.360
<v Speaker 2>multi layers to it. And I one hundred percent share

712
00:41:35.400 --> 00:41:38.440
<v Speaker 2>your misgivings about the Internet. Look, I talk about it

713
00:41:38.480 --> 00:41:40.599
<v Speaker 2>all the time, and I think that that sort of

714
00:41:40.679 --> 00:41:44.079
<v Speaker 2>missionary idea that we're going to wake up the masses

715
00:41:44.119 --> 00:41:48.280
<v Speaker 2>will get fifty plus one support for whatever your favorite policy.

716
00:41:48.840 --> 00:41:52.920
<v Speaker 2>I mean, that's laughable, that's not true. But if you realize, hey, look,

717
00:41:53.639 --> 00:41:56.679
<v Speaker 2>we're a minority in your case quite literally in my case,

718
00:41:56.760 --> 00:41:59.239
<v Speaker 2>let's be honest, also literally even if they haven't got

719
00:41:59.239 --> 00:42:02.960
<v Speaker 2>the numbers out yet. But certainly by virtue of our opinions,

720
00:42:03.800 --> 00:42:08.199
<v Speaker 2>we don't have the advantage of mass media mass control.

721
00:42:08.480 --> 00:42:11.960
<v Speaker 2>We can't make a policy that instantly sixty percent of

722
00:42:12.000 --> 00:42:14.840
<v Speaker 2>people will support just because we said it. So we

723
00:42:14.880 --> 00:42:17.159
<v Speaker 2>have to play the game smart. There has to be

724
00:42:17.480 --> 00:42:21.000
<v Speaker 2>a small group of talented men who, let's be honest,

725
00:42:21.079 --> 00:42:23.360
<v Speaker 2>if you've done your historical reading, that's pretty much how

726
00:42:23.400 --> 00:42:28.199
<v Speaker 2>anything ever gets done, right. And how do you find them? Because,

727
00:42:28.480 --> 00:42:32.920
<v Speaker 2>again partially due to the Internet, people are incredibly atomized.

728
00:42:33.119 --> 00:42:36.119
<v Speaker 2>There aren't really social institutions in the way there used

729
00:42:36.119 --> 00:42:38.079
<v Speaker 2>to be. You can't go down to the Elks Club

730
00:42:38.599 --> 00:42:40.800
<v Speaker 2>or you know, whatever institution that used to be in

731
00:42:40.840 --> 00:42:43.360
<v Speaker 2>your town. Well you got to find them. Well how

732
00:42:43.360 --> 00:42:47.239
<v Speaker 2>do you find the Internet? But what you do next

733
00:42:47.599 --> 00:42:53.679
<v Speaker 2>get off the internet? You know, it's sort of this paradox, right, Yeah, And.

734
00:42:53.679 --> 00:42:55.639
<v Speaker 1>I think that's that's the key to it, is the

735
00:42:55.679 --> 00:42:59.000
<v Speaker 1>fact that we've been talking about these two different concepts,

736
00:42:59.000 --> 00:43:03.639
<v Speaker 1>the idea of online activism get disseminating information which is

737
00:43:03.679 --> 00:43:07.000
<v Speaker 1>good information, which is a good thing. But then also

738
00:43:07.320 --> 00:43:10.119
<v Speaker 1>how does that translate into real world action. I think

739
00:43:10.159 --> 00:43:14.280
<v Speaker 1>the marriage between these two ideas is locked up in

740
00:43:14.480 --> 00:43:17.880
<v Speaker 1>that case study that you mentioned. I mean, I don't

741
00:43:18.000 --> 00:43:20.039
<v Speaker 1>like using my own work as an example, but you

742
00:43:20.079 --> 00:43:22.079
<v Speaker 1>brought it up. I mean, if I wrote an article

743
00:43:22.159 --> 00:43:24.599
<v Speaker 1>or did a podcast talking about how you should dig

744
00:43:24.679 --> 00:43:27.239
<v Speaker 1>a trench and that inspires someone to move back to

745
00:43:27.320 --> 00:43:32.239
<v Speaker 1>their hometown or to dig a trench, that was effective

746
00:43:32.360 --> 00:43:36.159
<v Speaker 1>because my content was not just waking people up in

747
00:43:36.199 --> 00:43:38.719
<v Speaker 1>regards to this is the state of affairs, This is

748
00:43:38.760 --> 00:43:41.159
<v Speaker 1>you need to see the world through the reality glasses,

749
00:43:41.480 --> 00:43:44.320
<v Speaker 1>but rather this is how the world is, and this

750
00:43:44.400 --> 00:43:46.199
<v Speaker 1>is what you can do about it. That there's a

751
00:43:46.280 --> 00:43:49.039
<v Speaker 1>normative side to it of and this is how you

752
00:43:49.119 --> 00:43:52.159
<v Speaker 1>can change that. This is how you can make a difference,

753
00:43:52.199 --> 00:43:54.480
<v Speaker 1>to change it from the current state of affairs and

754
00:43:54.480 --> 00:43:57.760
<v Speaker 1>start building towards something new. And I think that maybe

755
00:43:57.920 --> 00:44:00.880
<v Speaker 1>is a challenge that we can start giving to all

756
00:44:00.920 --> 00:44:04.119
<v Speaker 1>of the good content creators that we know all of

757
00:44:04.159 --> 00:44:07.559
<v Speaker 1>the content creators make doing good work in our circles

758
00:44:07.960 --> 00:44:11.119
<v Speaker 1>is to start challenging each other more to always accompany

759
00:44:11.639 --> 00:44:15.400
<v Speaker 1>a piece or an episode or whatever content you're creating,

760
00:44:15.719 --> 00:44:18.800
<v Speaker 1>to not just have it be a descriptive topic of

761
00:44:18.880 --> 00:44:22.360
<v Speaker 1>this is how things are, but to try and always

762
00:44:22.599 --> 00:44:25.320
<v Speaker 1>marry it or accompany it with and this is what

763
00:44:25.360 --> 00:44:27.079
<v Speaker 1>we need to do about it, or this is what

764
00:44:27.119 --> 00:44:30.199
<v Speaker 1>we should start doing to change the state of affairs.

765
00:44:30.039 --> 00:44:33.400
<v Speaker 1>It's the classic example of a train getting derailed, and

766
00:44:33.440 --> 00:44:37.199
<v Speaker 1>then people go to the train derailment site and they

767
00:44:37.239 --> 00:44:41.079
<v Speaker 1>take pictures of the derail train, and they draw the

768
00:44:41.159 --> 00:44:45.480
<v Speaker 1>derail train, and they write the newspaper about the derail train.

769
00:44:45.880 --> 00:44:48.800
<v Speaker 1>They do a three D model with the latest technology

770
00:44:48.840 --> 00:44:51.559
<v Speaker 1>of the derail train. They start writing a book about

771
00:44:51.599 --> 00:44:54.639
<v Speaker 1>how the train was derailed and what effect it had

772
00:44:54.679 --> 00:44:56.880
<v Speaker 1>on the world in the community. But then at some

773
00:44:57.039 --> 00:45:00.239
<v Speaker 1>point someone has to raise his hand and say, well,

774
00:45:00.239 --> 00:45:01.920
<v Speaker 1>how are we going to get this train back on

775
00:45:02.000 --> 00:45:06.320
<v Speaker 1>the tracks? Like we've documented every single micro millimeter of

776
00:45:06.360 --> 00:45:09.480
<v Speaker 1>this disaster. I think everybody knows something is wrong with

777
00:45:09.559 --> 00:45:11.719
<v Speaker 1>this train is in a bad shape. How we're going

778
00:45:11.800 --> 00:45:14.719
<v Speaker 1>to get it back on the tracks. But the difficult

779
00:45:14.760 --> 00:45:16.239
<v Speaker 1>thing is not a lot of people want to do

780
00:45:16.280 --> 00:45:19.119
<v Speaker 1>that because it's much easier metaphority to stand there taking

781
00:45:19.159 --> 00:45:22.920
<v Speaker 1>pictures and talk about how devastating the train deralment is

782
00:45:23.079 --> 00:45:26.039
<v Speaker 1>and what you're seeing with your eyes rather than saying

783
00:45:26.360 --> 00:45:28.239
<v Speaker 1>being the guy that says, all right, and here's my

784
00:45:28.400 --> 00:45:30.440
<v Speaker 1>plan on how we're going to get the train back

785
00:45:30.480 --> 00:45:31.119
<v Speaker 1>on the tracks.

786
00:45:32.559 --> 00:45:36.920
<v Speaker 2>No, certainly, and I mean I think that's that This

787
00:45:37.000 --> 00:45:40.079
<v Speaker 2>also brings up a sort of uncomfortable truth, which is

788
00:45:40.159 --> 00:45:42.519
<v Speaker 2>why do people engage with political content.

789
00:45:43.239 --> 00:45:44.400
<v Speaker 1>You will get.

790
00:45:44.360 --> 00:45:47.039
<v Speaker 2>Answers like, oh, I want to be more informed, or oh,

791
00:45:47.280 --> 00:45:49.639
<v Speaker 2>you know, in part of some cause. And that's certainly

792
00:45:49.679 --> 00:45:55.880
<v Speaker 2>true in certain instances, but oftentimes it's an entertainment product.

793
00:45:56.239 --> 00:45:59.679
<v Speaker 2>It's Team Sports Eve instead of the spring Bocks and

794
00:46:00.599 --> 00:46:03.159
<v Speaker 2>don't know, another team in that league whatever, another team

795
00:46:03.599 --> 00:46:06.039
<v Speaker 2>it's Team Blue and team Red. Right, pick your your

796
00:46:06.119 --> 00:46:11.079
<v Speaker 2>local colors, you know, as they apply. And you certainly

797
00:46:11.079 --> 00:46:17.159
<v Speaker 2>have seen that in the explosion of conspiracy content. And

798
00:46:17.199 --> 00:46:21.199
<v Speaker 2>when I say conspiracy content, I don't mean you know,

799
00:46:21.280 --> 00:46:24.840
<v Speaker 2>for instance, guys who were saying, hey, this wealthy in

800
00:46:25.000 --> 00:46:27.639
<v Speaker 2>New York financier Jeffrey Epstein sure seems to be up

801
00:46:27.679 --> 00:46:30.440
<v Speaker 2>to some weird stuff. Ten years later, those guys are

802
00:46:30.440 --> 00:46:34.599
<v Speaker 2>completely justified. But the sort of you know, Emmanuel mccron

803
00:46:35.000 --> 00:46:38.719
<v Speaker 2>is a man, everyone is lizard people either the David Ike,

804
00:46:38.920 --> 00:46:41.280
<v Speaker 2>you know, the kind of low quality slop. It's gotten very,

805
00:46:41.400 --> 00:46:46.360
<v Speaker 2>very popular because ultimately it is an entertainment product, and

806
00:46:46.960 --> 00:46:50.159
<v Speaker 2>I guess that is more entertaining than you know, a

807
00:46:50.199 --> 00:46:52.960
<v Speaker 2>Marvel movie. And look, I've mentioned Alex Jones, who I'll

808
00:46:53.000 --> 00:46:55.320
<v Speaker 2>be honest, I think is the most entertaining man in

809
00:46:55.360 --> 00:46:58.199
<v Speaker 2>the world. I think he's hilarious. So I'm not even

810
00:46:58.199 --> 00:47:01.440
<v Speaker 2>saying I'm above it. I get it. But you see

811
00:47:01.480 --> 00:47:04.239
<v Speaker 2>that same truth in the kind of extreme example that

812
00:47:04.360 --> 00:47:08.440
<v Speaker 2>politics is an entertainment product, and that sense of outrage

813
00:47:08.679 --> 00:47:11.639
<v Speaker 2>that you and I and our people like us were

814
00:47:11.679 --> 00:47:15.400
<v Speaker 2>so eager to point out in the kind of SJWs

815
00:47:15.440 --> 00:47:18.559
<v Speaker 2>of yesteryear. Right, Oh, these people are getting outraged about

816
00:47:18.559 --> 00:47:22.840
<v Speaker 2>things that don't matter. Well, okay, sure we think it

817
00:47:22.880 --> 00:47:26.559
<v Speaker 2>doesn't matter because we think their values are stupid, horrible

818
00:47:27.079 --> 00:47:31.159
<v Speaker 2>and you know, lead to horrible results. But if you

819
00:47:31.199 --> 00:47:34.119
<v Speaker 2>look at the mirror image we have our own outrape cycle.

820
00:47:34.360 --> 00:47:37.320
<v Speaker 2>Now the causes are much more just. You know, it's

821
00:47:37.440 --> 00:47:40.079
<v Speaker 2>much more understandable, at least from my perspective, to be

822
00:47:40.159 --> 00:47:44.199
<v Speaker 2>upset about Austin Metcalf than George Floyd. But it's the

823
00:47:44.239 --> 00:47:47.360
<v Speaker 2>same ecosystem, it's the same instinct in our kind of

824
00:47:47.440 --> 00:47:51.440
<v Speaker 2>human nature. And so I think it's important to be

825
00:47:51.519 --> 00:47:55.280
<v Speaker 2>careful of that that what is entertaining is not necessarily

826
00:47:55.320 --> 00:47:58.800
<v Speaker 2>what is politically efficacious. And look, you know, I'm not

827
00:47:58.840 --> 00:48:01.840
<v Speaker 2>saying everything needs to be you know, kind of dry

828
00:48:01.920 --> 00:48:05.320
<v Speaker 2>political theory. Here's what you do vote in this election.

829
00:48:07.159 --> 00:48:10.000
<v Speaker 2>But I think don't kid yourself, Like, look, my most

830
00:48:10.000 --> 00:48:14.320
<v Speaker 2>recent episode was a review of the nineteen eighty movie Airplane. Like,

831
00:48:14.760 --> 00:48:17.159
<v Speaker 2>it's not serious. It's me hanging out with a friend.

832
00:48:17.400 --> 00:48:21.599
<v Speaker 2>You guys can come along. There's nothing ultimately important in that.

833
00:48:22.159 --> 00:48:23.920
<v Speaker 2>And I also want to say that I think there

834
00:48:23.960 --> 00:48:26.840
<v Speaker 2>is a psychological element to this, to the kind of

835
00:48:26.840 --> 00:48:32.679
<v Speaker 2>politics as an entertainment product that isn't wholly negative, especially

836
00:48:32.760 --> 00:48:35.440
<v Speaker 2>if you're living behind enemy lines, you know, deep in

837
00:48:35.559 --> 00:48:39.119
<v Speaker 2>blue territory, you can get this feeling that you're all

838
00:48:39.159 --> 00:48:43.480
<v Speaker 2>by yourself, You're completely and totally alone, that everything, whether

839
00:48:43.480 --> 00:48:46.480
<v Speaker 2>it's a concert or a restaurant, is marked by the enemy.

840
00:48:46.800 --> 00:48:48.239
<v Speaker 2>You know, you go out to grab a slice of

841
00:48:48.280 --> 00:48:50.920
<v Speaker 2>pizza and there's, you know, that garish little flag in

842
00:48:50.960 --> 00:48:53.679
<v Speaker 2>the corner. You know, you feel like I can't ever

843
00:48:53.760 --> 00:48:57.840
<v Speaker 2>be myself, and you know, if you can sit back,

844
00:48:58.159 --> 00:49:01.159
<v Speaker 2>you know, listen to something that's kind of fun, that's

845
00:49:01.239 --> 00:49:04.360
<v Speaker 2>not even necessarily political, but from your perspective, it makes

846
00:49:04.360 --> 00:49:06.280
<v Speaker 2>you feel like, yeah, I'm not the only one here.

847
00:49:06.840 --> 00:49:09.400
<v Speaker 2>And I think it's important to recognize that the psychological

848
00:49:09.440 --> 00:49:12.639
<v Speaker 2>aspect is very real, because what is one of the

849
00:49:12.679 --> 00:49:16.519
<v Speaker 2>main consequences of that outrage cycle. Well, you'll make a

850
00:49:16.519 --> 00:49:19.119
<v Speaker 2>fool of yourself. Sure, the internet's great at doing that,

851
00:49:19.519 --> 00:49:22.639
<v Speaker 2>but there's also a huge burnout. Right, you take the

852
00:49:22.719 --> 00:49:26.280
<v Speaker 2>infamous blackpill, you basically hit a point of nihilism where

853
00:49:26.280 --> 00:49:30.880
<v Speaker 2>it doesn't matter where we're all screwed anyway. And if

854
00:49:31.000 --> 00:49:34.960
<v Speaker 2>our minds didn't matter, if what we thought was completely irrelevant,

855
00:49:35.360 --> 00:49:38.000
<v Speaker 2>well they wouldn't spend so much time trying to convince

856
00:49:38.079 --> 00:49:41.559
<v Speaker 2>us it's all already over. Just give up. And so

857
00:49:41.639 --> 00:49:45.239
<v Speaker 2>I think there are things that even aren't necessarily the

858
00:49:45.280 --> 00:49:49.920
<v Speaker 2>most high end, you know, political insight or didactic here's

859
00:49:49.960 --> 00:49:52.480
<v Speaker 2>what you ought to do that do serve a purpose,

860
00:49:52.599 --> 00:49:55.639
<v Speaker 2>because look, you and I are lucky enough to be

861
00:49:55.760 --> 00:49:59.000
<v Speaker 2>part of community, right, we have people around us who

862
00:49:59.039 --> 00:50:01.440
<v Speaker 2>think the same way. But for a lot of guys

863
00:50:01.519 --> 00:50:03.960
<v Speaker 2>who don't, who have the capacity to make a real

864
00:50:03.960 --> 00:50:08.320
<v Speaker 2>difference to do things well. You know, that sort of

865
00:50:08.360 --> 00:50:11.760
<v Speaker 2>psychological refuge is really helpful. Right. If that's the thing

866
00:50:11.760 --> 00:50:14.880
<v Speaker 2>that keeps you from, you know, taking the black pill,

867
00:50:14.920 --> 00:50:18.000
<v Speaker 2>then you know what, maybe a stupid podcast or some

868
00:50:18.159 --> 00:50:22.400
<v Speaker 2>kind of political entertainment isn't the worst thing. But sorry,

869
00:50:22.440 --> 00:50:24.400
<v Speaker 2>I maybe rambling, Ernest. Do you see what I'm getting

870
00:50:24.400 --> 00:50:24.760
<v Speaker 2>at there?

871
00:50:26.039 --> 00:50:29.440
<v Speaker 1>Absolutely? And I mean once again, I think that comes

872
00:50:29.480 --> 00:50:33.400
<v Speaker 1>down to, on the one side, we need to be

873
00:50:34.039 --> 00:50:37.119
<v Speaker 1>disseminating good, high quality information because there's still a lot

874
00:50:37.199 --> 00:50:39.960
<v Speaker 1>of people out there that don't see clearly what's going on.

875
00:50:40.039 --> 00:50:41.800
<v Speaker 1>I mean that might be hard to believe. I think

876
00:50:41.840 --> 00:50:43.679
<v Speaker 1>a lot of people that spend a lot of time

877
00:50:43.719 --> 00:50:48.400
<v Speaker 1>online think that people are just constantly aware. Everyone's just

878
00:50:48.519 --> 00:50:52.119
<v Speaker 1>monitoring the situation. But that is very clearly not the case.

879
00:50:52.119 --> 00:50:53.719
<v Speaker 1>So I think on the one side, yes, we need

880
00:50:53.760 --> 00:50:57.320
<v Speaker 1>to continue disseminating good, high quality information. I don't think

881
00:50:57.320 --> 00:51:00.119
<v Speaker 1>I'm not going to knock that in any way. As

882
00:51:00.119 --> 00:51:02.400
<v Speaker 1>I said earlier, found that gets to your point now

883
00:51:02.440 --> 00:51:05.079
<v Speaker 1>as well, we need to be pairing that as well

884
00:51:05.079 --> 00:51:09.119
<v Speaker 1>with all right, and once you figured out what's going on,

885
00:51:09.119 --> 00:51:12.440
<v Speaker 1>once you have a clearer picture of the world, here's

886
00:51:12.480 --> 00:51:15.000
<v Speaker 1>what you can do to make it better, or here's

887
00:51:15.039 --> 00:51:18.800
<v Speaker 1>what you can do to embody some real change. And

888
00:51:18.840 --> 00:51:21.400
<v Speaker 1>I think if we can get those two together, we

889
00:51:21.480 --> 00:51:25.079
<v Speaker 1>can marry the one side of disseminating high quality information

890
00:51:25.199 --> 00:51:28.800
<v Speaker 1>continuing to do that while also challenging ourselves to provide

891
00:51:28.960 --> 00:51:31.400
<v Speaker 1>real answers in regards to what is there to be

892
00:51:31.519 --> 00:51:36.000
<v Speaker 1>done about this state of affairs that we're painting or

893
00:51:36.039 --> 00:51:38.519
<v Speaker 1>sketching for the world. I think we're going to see

894
00:51:38.519 --> 00:51:40.760
<v Speaker 1>a lot more of what you're describing there where on

895
00:51:40.800 --> 00:51:43.800
<v Speaker 1>an individual basis, at least people are inspired to change,

896
00:51:43.840 --> 00:51:46.800
<v Speaker 1>maybe their habits, change their lifestyles, change the way that

897
00:51:46.840 --> 00:51:51.039
<v Speaker 1>they approach organizing with other young men, organizing with people

898
00:51:51.039 --> 00:51:54.559
<v Speaker 1>in their community. I think that's a real avenue that

899
00:51:54.599 --> 00:51:57.000
<v Speaker 1>we can exploit to make a difference. But that's going

900
00:51:57.039 --> 00:52:00.159
<v Speaker 1>to start with doing the I don't want to say

901
00:52:00.159 --> 00:52:02.159
<v Speaker 1>the hard work is the hard work is going to

902
00:52:02.159 --> 00:52:05.360
<v Speaker 1>be the real world organization. But the online equivalence of

903
00:52:05.400 --> 00:52:07.880
<v Speaker 1>hard work is not just pointing out the problem. It's

904
00:52:07.960 --> 00:52:12.400
<v Speaker 1>then also assaulting the problem with your thoughts that you

905
00:52:12.480 --> 00:52:14.719
<v Speaker 1>can actually get to. All right, but what we can

906
00:52:14.840 --> 00:52:16.800
<v Speaker 1>can we do about it? Because it's much easier to

907
00:52:16.840 --> 00:52:19.719
<v Speaker 1>describe the situation than to say, all right, well, because

908
00:52:19.760 --> 00:52:21.159
<v Speaker 1>are we going to change it? So I think that,

909
00:52:21.760 --> 00:52:24.119
<v Speaker 1>in the end, is what we need to be challenging

910
00:52:24.119 --> 00:52:28.400
<v Speaker 1>ourselves on an individual basis as content creators constantly is

911
00:52:28.400 --> 00:52:31.519
<v Speaker 1>to constantly challenge ourselves to say, well, I'm going to

912
00:52:31.559 --> 00:52:33.679
<v Speaker 1>try and at least put my neck out there and

913
00:52:33.880 --> 00:52:36.840
<v Speaker 1>suggest a solution to this problem, or suggest what people

914
00:52:36.880 --> 00:52:39.079
<v Speaker 1>can do to make a difference, even if I'm wrong,

915
00:52:39.119 --> 00:52:41.719
<v Speaker 1>even if people judge me for it, because I think

916
00:52:41.760 --> 00:52:44.519
<v Speaker 1>that's what keeps a lot of people away from making

917
00:52:44.559 --> 00:52:48.159
<v Speaker 1>suggestions on a solution, because if you're going to be

918
00:52:49.880 --> 00:52:52.400
<v Speaker 1>tying your flag to the mask of a particular solution,

919
00:52:52.519 --> 00:52:55.199
<v Speaker 1>there's always going to be people saying, no, but that's

920
00:52:55.239 --> 00:52:58.800
<v Speaker 1>not my way, that's a terrible idea, or that's a

921
00:52:58.840 --> 00:53:02.719
<v Speaker 1>stupid idea. So I think there's a lot more inherent

922
00:53:02.880 --> 00:53:06.559
<v Speaker 1>risk in proposing a solution or proposing real world actions,

923
00:53:06.599 --> 00:53:10.840
<v Speaker 1>and I think that keeps people away or disinsanctivizes people,

924
00:53:10.880 --> 00:53:14.559
<v Speaker 1>and keeps people just focused on I'm just going to

925
00:53:14.639 --> 00:53:17.400
<v Speaker 1>describe the problem.

926
00:53:17.559 --> 00:53:20.320
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I mean that's definitely true. And I think that

927
00:53:20.440 --> 00:53:26.400
<v Speaker 2>part of this also derives from how the online right

928
00:53:26.800 --> 00:53:29.760
<v Speaker 2>sort of sprang up. That so much of that early

929
00:53:29.920 --> 00:53:33.960
<v Speaker 2>content was focused on analysis and deconstruction of the system

930
00:53:34.000 --> 00:53:37.440
<v Speaker 2>as it is, and that's helpful. It's useful to understand

931
00:53:37.480 --> 00:53:40.440
<v Speaker 2>how your enemy works and how he achieved his position

932
00:53:40.599 --> 00:53:44.360
<v Speaker 2>of power. But at a certain point there's only so

933
00:53:44.559 --> 00:53:46.840
<v Speaker 2>far into your own navel you can gaze before you

934
00:53:47.000 --> 00:53:49.760
<v Speaker 2>just you become kind of the oroboros right, eating your

935
00:53:49.760 --> 00:53:53.000
<v Speaker 2>own tail. And again that analysis is fond, it can

936
00:53:53.039 --> 00:53:57.159
<v Speaker 2>be helpful, but that second stage, the positive vision, is

937
00:53:57.280 --> 00:54:00.760
<v Speaker 2>much much more difficult, especially because it's an area in

938
00:54:00.800 --> 00:54:04.119
<v Speaker 2>which we are not aligned. If you can say one

939
00:54:04.159 --> 00:54:06.800
<v Speaker 2>thing about whatever the online right is, it's that they're

940
00:54:06.800 --> 00:54:09.880
<v Speaker 2>opposed to the left. They don't like it. But then

941
00:54:09.920 --> 00:54:12.079
<v Speaker 2>you ask, well, what do you all have in common otherwise?

942
00:54:12.119 --> 00:54:14.559
<v Speaker 2>And it's like, well, you know, I'm an odentic pagan,

943
00:54:15.239 --> 00:54:19.559
<v Speaker 2>you're a Christian. It gets very uncomfortable, very quickly. So

944
00:54:19.639 --> 00:54:24.119
<v Speaker 2>I understand that, but it needs to be done. So

945
00:54:24.639 --> 00:54:27.679
<v Speaker 2>I'll respond to this question in chat that you've put

946
00:54:27.760 --> 00:54:32.079
<v Speaker 2>up on stream from Gilgamesh whatever I can't read it,

947
00:54:33.199 --> 00:54:35.920
<v Speaker 2>asking can't you find competent people in real life as well?

948
00:54:36.039 --> 00:54:39.119
<v Speaker 2>Church's universities, talking to your local community, since you know

949
00:54:39.239 --> 00:54:42.000
<v Speaker 2>among who among them is competent oh one hundred percent.

950
00:54:42.039 --> 00:54:45.800
<v Speaker 2>These are not mutually exclusive strategies, and this also depends

951
00:54:46.719 --> 00:54:49.800
<v Speaker 2>highly on where you are, so at least where I am,

952
00:54:50.519 --> 00:54:52.400
<v Speaker 2>church is a good start. You know, I could definitely

953
00:54:52.440 --> 00:54:54.559
<v Speaker 2>find people who are aligned, you know, going to a

954
00:54:54.599 --> 00:54:59.119
<v Speaker 2>conservative religious institution if you live in Springfield, Massachusetts, if

955
00:54:59.159 --> 00:55:02.360
<v Speaker 2>you go to your church, you will probably be beaten to

956
00:55:02.400 --> 00:55:05.920
<v Speaker 2>death by a lesbian, only a slight exaggeration, like it

957
00:55:06.039 --> 00:55:09.880
<v Speaker 2>is not something where you will find allies. Similarly, universities

958
00:55:09.960 --> 00:55:14.400
<v Speaker 2>highly dependent. Again, I'm lucky to live next to a

959
00:55:14.639 --> 00:55:18.280
<v Speaker 2>large Christian university where, yeah, all the kids there probably

960
00:55:18.360 --> 00:55:21.280
<v Speaker 2>agree with me to some degree or another. But the

961
00:55:21.320 --> 00:55:24.480
<v Speaker 2>small liberal arts school one hundred yards away from me. Again,

962
00:55:24.679 --> 00:55:27.440
<v Speaker 2>if they knew who I were, or who I am

963
00:55:27.679 --> 00:55:31.039
<v Speaker 2>or what I do, I would have protesters outside. So

964
00:55:31.280 --> 00:55:34.440
<v Speaker 2>it's completely and totally dependent. And one of the advantages

965
00:55:34.599 --> 00:55:38.079
<v Speaker 2>of having, you know, being an extreme minority, you know,

966
00:55:38.159 --> 00:55:40.639
<v Speaker 2>being in a position where you really can't depend on

967
00:55:40.719 --> 00:55:43.519
<v Speaker 2>someone seeing things the same way you do in a

968
00:55:43.599 --> 00:55:46.559
<v Speaker 2>room of any one hundred random people, is that if

969
00:55:46.599 --> 00:55:48.639
<v Speaker 2>on the Internet you can find oh wait, in my

970
00:55:48.800 --> 00:55:53.119
<v Speaker 2>town there are fifteen guys. Well, guess what, that's a

971
00:55:53.199 --> 00:55:56.440
<v Speaker 2>huge jumpstar. You can start with a group of fifteen,

972
00:55:56.679 --> 00:55:59.360
<v Speaker 2>and within that group, of course, source for who's competent,

973
00:55:59.400 --> 00:56:02.159
<v Speaker 2>Whose actually a real you know, as you'd say, hitter

974
00:56:02.320 --> 00:56:05.000
<v Speaker 2>versus who just wants to scroll on their phone. Well,

975
00:56:05.039 --> 00:56:07.599
<v Speaker 2>that could be done one hundred percent, But I think

976
00:56:07.639 --> 00:56:10.960
<v Speaker 2>of you know, I've met a half dozen guys, and

977
00:56:11.840 --> 00:56:13.840
<v Speaker 2>some of them are very good friends. You know, people

978
00:56:13.840 --> 00:56:15.760
<v Speaker 2>who were over at my house a couple times a month,

979
00:56:15.800 --> 00:56:19.320
<v Speaker 2>our wives have met, their children are over all the time. Well,

980
00:56:19.639 --> 00:56:22.880
<v Speaker 2>that's a connection made on the internet that became a

981
00:56:22.920 --> 00:56:26.239
<v Speaker 2>community connection. And that's a guy who lived a mile

982
00:56:26.280 --> 00:56:30.719
<v Speaker 2>away from me. His mom taught my wife in preschool. Right,

983
00:56:30.920 --> 00:56:34.800
<v Speaker 2>very very close social connection. But we'd never cross paths.

984
00:56:34.960 --> 00:56:39.320
<v Speaker 2>We never talked politics. And could I have done that organically, sure,

985
00:56:39.559 --> 00:56:41.440
<v Speaker 2>you know it would have been a little difficult, especially

986
00:56:41.480 --> 00:56:43.559
<v Speaker 2>if I didn't know who I was looking for. But

987
00:56:43.880 --> 00:56:46.199
<v Speaker 2>all of a sudden, that's a two three year friendship.

988
00:56:46.400 --> 00:56:49.360
<v Speaker 2>Jimp started off of a random DM off Twitter. Right.

989
00:56:49.639 --> 00:56:52.960
<v Speaker 2>So again, the point is not to only talk to

990
00:56:52.960 --> 00:56:55.960
<v Speaker 2>people online or only talk to people in real life,

991
00:56:56.400 --> 00:57:00.159
<v Speaker 2>but realized that the internet provides an incredible advantage to

992
00:57:00.239 --> 00:57:04.559
<v Speaker 2>force multiplier for taking or for finding those sort of

993
00:57:04.559 --> 00:57:07.639
<v Speaker 2>diamonds in the rough in your local neighborhood. Now, I

994
00:57:07.679 --> 00:57:10.480
<v Speaker 2>will say, of course, be careful, don't just meet random

995
00:57:10.480 --> 00:57:12.320
<v Speaker 2>strangers on the internet. Your head will end up in

996
00:57:12.360 --> 00:57:15.639
<v Speaker 2>a freezer somewhere. But you know you're all adults here.

997
00:57:15.639 --> 00:57:16.719
<v Speaker 2>You understand what I mean.

998
00:57:18.079 --> 00:57:21.079
<v Speaker 1>Absolutely. What you're biskely saying is you need to start

999
00:57:21.119 --> 00:57:23.800
<v Speaker 1>a gang, but a gang of virtuous men rather than

1000
00:57:24.400 --> 00:57:25.239
<v Speaker 1>common criminals.

1001
00:57:26.960 --> 00:57:30.000
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. I mean, look, politics as a team sport earnest

1002
00:57:30.039 --> 00:57:35.480
<v Speaker 2>as you've no doubt figured out, and as the intermediary

1003
00:57:35.559 --> 00:57:40.000
<v Speaker 2>institutions that government set up to sort of push that

1004
00:57:41.079 --> 00:57:45.199
<v Speaker 2>fact into the background decay, it becomes more and more obvious.

1005
00:57:45.800 --> 00:57:48.280
<v Speaker 2>And one of the ideas that I think that has

1006
00:57:48.360 --> 00:57:52.280
<v Speaker 2>fallen out of fashion harder than anything else is the

1007
00:57:52.400 --> 00:57:56.599
<v Speaker 2>classical liberal obsession with individualism, the idea that you know,

1008
00:57:56.679 --> 00:57:59.000
<v Speaker 2>I am a man by myself, I am an island

1009
00:57:59.679 --> 00:58:03.639
<v Speaker 2>and bok man. I'm sure that sounds great, but guess what, Uh,

1010
00:58:03.719 --> 00:58:06.719
<v Speaker 2>there's a mob outside and they don't care. They don't

1011
00:58:06.719 --> 00:58:08.280
<v Speaker 2>care what you think about John Locke.

1012
00:58:08.920 --> 00:58:11.760
<v Speaker 1>Uh, they don't okay, because you'll, you'll, you'll you need

1013
00:58:11.800 --> 00:58:15.320
<v Speaker 1>to know your enemies are teaming up. They're not rug exactly, Joe,

1014
00:58:15.519 --> 00:58:17.519
<v Speaker 1>they are they're filming a gang.

1015
00:58:19.599 --> 00:58:23.159
<v Speaker 2>Right, yeah, exactly. And if you're looking to I shouldn't

1016
00:58:23.159 --> 00:58:25.119
<v Speaker 2>say that so directly. If you're looking to start such

1017
00:58:25.119 --> 00:58:28.639
<v Speaker 2>an enterprise, well you know, the Internet's a huge tool

1018
00:58:28.679 --> 00:58:28.960
<v Speaker 2>for that.

1019
00:58:29.719 --> 00:58:31.000
<v Speaker 1>Uh yeah.

1020
00:58:31.039 --> 00:58:34.320
<v Speaker 2>And so again to this question, Ernest right to kind

1021
00:58:34.320 --> 00:58:37.199
<v Speaker 2>of bring it back to how much does online influence

1022
00:58:37.280 --> 00:58:41.199
<v Speaker 2>matter to you know, real world politics. It's kind of

1023
00:58:41.199 --> 00:58:46.360
<v Speaker 2>an unsatisfying answer of uh, well, it depends, right, It

1024
00:58:46.360 --> 00:58:49.000
<v Speaker 2>depends on one. What do you mean my influence? Can

1025
00:58:49.039 --> 00:58:52.280
<v Speaker 2>you make a viral video? And will the president watch it?

1026
00:58:52.880 --> 00:58:56.199
<v Speaker 2>If he does watch it, will he change No? But

1027
00:58:56.920 --> 00:59:00.440
<v Speaker 2>if you accept that, look, you know, politics is alltimately

1028
00:59:00.440 --> 00:59:04.400
<v Speaker 2>determined by you know, organized groups of competent people. I

1029
00:59:04.440 --> 00:59:08.679
<v Speaker 2>would like to start such an organized group of competent people. Well, uh,

1030
00:59:09.199 --> 00:59:11.800
<v Speaker 2>you know, I don't know about the bar closest to you,

1031
00:59:12.239 --> 00:59:15.360
<v Speaker 2>but uh, I think I'd take my chances online, you know,

1032
00:59:15.440 --> 00:59:19.320
<v Speaker 2>not even anything against those guys. But you know you

1033
00:59:19.360 --> 00:59:21.480
<v Speaker 2>have to you have to cross a lot of you know,

1034
00:59:21.559 --> 00:59:24.159
<v Speaker 2>barriers to do that. And so Yeah, I think it's

1035
00:59:24.199 --> 00:59:28.159
<v Speaker 2>an incredibly important tool, but it has huge pitfalls to it.

1036
00:59:28.559 --> 00:59:32.360
<v Speaker 2>You know, it can eat you, it can completely ruin

1037
00:59:32.440 --> 00:59:36.000
<v Speaker 2>your life and turn you into a lunatic and also

1038
00:59:36.119 --> 00:59:38.760
<v Speaker 2>make it sure that you don't get anything done. So

1039
00:59:38.840 --> 00:59:41.400
<v Speaker 2>it is a tool. It's a particularly dangerous tool, but

1040
00:59:41.440 --> 00:59:43.880
<v Speaker 2>it's also one I don't think we can we can

1041
00:59:43.920 --> 00:59:45.280
<v Speaker 2>afford to avoid.

1042
00:59:47.559 --> 00:59:49.480
<v Speaker 1>Absolutely. I mean, we need to use the tools that

1043
00:59:49.519 --> 00:59:52.679
<v Speaker 1>are at all disposal of our time. You can't just

1044
00:59:52.719 --> 00:59:54.559
<v Speaker 1>be a lutite and say I'm not going to use

1045
00:59:54.599 --> 00:59:59.679
<v Speaker 1>these fantastical technologies that are unprecedented in how they are

1046
00:59:59.719 --> 01:00:04.199
<v Speaker 1>able to disseminate information. As we've established, I've been neglecting

1047
01:00:04.239 --> 01:00:06.199
<v Speaker 1>the chat for a while. Now, I just want to

1048
01:00:06.239 --> 01:00:09.599
<v Speaker 1>read some super chats that came in. I'm very appreciated

1049
01:00:10.039 --> 01:00:13.320
<v Speaker 1>of them. Before we get to the super chats, here

1050
01:00:13.480 --> 01:00:16.679
<v Speaker 1>is from recon one our doors is conscious caricle. Now'll

1051
01:00:16.679 --> 01:00:19.320
<v Speaker 1>throw in the elements of earning money for outrage. Yah. Well,

1052
01:00:19.639 --> 01:00:22.039
<v Speaker 1>there's a whole different episode we could be doing about

1053
01:00:22.360 --> 01:00:26.840
<v Speaker 1>the monetization of online activism as we see unfortunately with

1054
01:00:26.920 --> 01:00:30.679
<v Speaker 1>the monetization of X. But well, that's a topic for

1055
01:00:30.719 --> 01:00:34.719
<v Speaker 1>another day. Sideliner opinions with fifty rand super Chat. Thank

1056
01:00:34.760 --> 01:00:36.440
<v Speaker 1>you very much. He has a question for you, Jay,

1057
01:00:36.480 --> 01:00:39.000
<v Speaker 1>He says, Jay Burden, when are you coming to visit

1058
01:00:39.760 --> 01:00:41.320
<v Speaker 1>us in South Africa?

1059
01:00:42.480 --> 01:00:47.000
<v Speaker 2>I mean, honestly, really the moment I can. I am

1060
01:00:47.000 --> 01:00:50.519
<v Speaker 2>incredibly interested in your country. I think it's incredibly beautiful. Actually,

1061
01:00:50.519 --> 01:00:54.559
<v Speaker 2>recon One Outdoors has a lot of great footage. I

1062
01:00:54.599 --> 01:00:57.599
<v Speaker 2>assume he's South African just from kind of scrolling through it,

1063
01:00:58.480 --> 01:01:03.599
<v Speaker 2>I've seen much much more. And uh, yeah, I really

1064
01:01:03.639 --> 01:01:07.159
<v Speaker 2>want to go. It's just if you haven't noticed, Ernest, Uh,

1065
01:01:07.239 --> 01:01:09.880
<v Speaker 2>it's pretty far away and kind of expensive to get there.

1066
01:01:10.559 --> 01:01:13.320
<v Speaker 2>And uh so, really as soon as I can. I've

1067
01:01:13.320 --> 01:01:16.000
<v Speaker 2>actually and we can talk about this on offline, but

1068
01:01:16.559 --> 01:01:19.480
<v Speaker 2>I have some very close friends who who just got back,

1069
01:01:20.119 --> 01:01:23.159
<v Speaker 2>and hopefully later this week I'll be, uh, you know,

1070
01:01:23.199 --> 01:01:26.760
<v Speaker 2>meeting some more africaners in my my small town in America.

1071
01:01:26.920 --> 01:01:29.480
<v Speaker 2>So really, as soon as I can. I'm fascinated by

1072
01:01:29.480 --> 01:01:34.199
<v Speaker 2>your culture and just the landscape of the country itself fantastic.

1073
01:01:34.400 --> 01:01:37.239
<v Speaker 1>And yeah, when you visit here in Pretoria, you'll definitely

1074
01:01:37.559 --> 01:01:40.559
<v Speaker 1>not be having to spain anything. I'll I'll show you

1075
01:01:40.599 --> 01:01:44.880
<v Speaker 1>around here and all experienced spied Mark meiber S say,

1076
01:01:45.000 --> 01:01:49.119
<v Speaker 1>for viny On Donkey, I hope for Cunci. Marklier act

1077
01:01:49.159 --> 01:01:55.320
<v Speaker 1>with for Vinyan Donkey, c of like by donkey, but

1078
01:01:55.400 --> 01:01:59.360
<v Speaker 1>he does oft ai for vin On Donkey see Bye Donkey,

1079
01:01:59.719 --> 01:02:04.920
<v Speaker 1>Nan that henko for Caanci. And then Dawn Browning gives

1080
01:02:04.960 --> 01:02:08.559
<v Speaker 1>a twenty Australian dollars supersticker thank you very much, and

1081
01:02:08.559 --> 01:02:11.360
<v Speaker 1>then a non super chat comment here that just I

1082
01:02:11.400 --> 01:02:14.320
<v Speaker 1>found very amusing. Vingal says it's good to hear mister

1083
01:02:14.400 --> 01:02:18.719
<v Speaker 1>Fansale's voice and accent again. Yeah, thank you very much.

1084
01:02:18.760 --> 01:02:20.719
<v Speaker 1>I really appreciate that inger, and also thank you to

1085
01:02:20.760 --> 01:02:23.239
<v Speaker 1>all the superchats. As you know, all of the super

1086
01:02:23.320 --> 01:02:26.519
<v Speaker 1>chats on this channel. I am completely transparent in the

1087
01:02:26.519 --> 01:02:28.679
<v Speaker 1>fact that all of this money is going towards my

1088
01:02:28.800 --> 01:02:31.679
<v Speaker 1>backyard chickens. I'm going to be buying more feed for them,

1089
01:02:31.760 --> 01:02:35.280
<v Speaker 1>upgrading the chicken coop, getting more medicine because there's been

1090
01:02:35.280 --> 01:02:38.320
<v Speaker 1>a little bit of a virus going around. So yeah,

1091
01:02:38.360 --> 01:02:42.280
<v Speaker 1>all of those expenses are covered by my huge super chats,

1092
01:02:42.320 --> 01:02:46.840
<v Speaker 1>So thank you very much. Those those dollars and pennies

1093
01:02:46.960 --> 01:02:49.559
<v Speaker 1>and quarters that you're throwing my way are going into

1094
01:02:49.559 --> 01:02:52.199
<v Speaker 1>the chicken fund. So thank you very much for that.

1095
01:02:52.320 --> 01:02:55.519
<v Speaker 1>Really appreciated JA. The last question, as you always say

1096
01:02:55.559 --> 01:02:59.400
<v Speaker 1>on your channel, we're fast approaching the end of this

1097
01:02:59.599 --> 01:03:02.280
<v Speaker 1>great conversation, But the last thing I wanted to know

1098
01:03:02.360 --> 01:03:05.360
<v Speaker 1>from you is in particular your personal experience. I think

1099
01:03:05.400 --> 01:03:08.760
<v Speaker 1>I want to add in this conversation actually on a

1100
01:03:08.760 --> 01:03:14.000
<v Speaker 1>personal case study in regards to specifically how much you've

1101
01:03:14.079 --> 01:03:19.280
<v Speaker 1>seen online discourse, slang, online activism bleed into your own

1102
01:03:19.400 --> 01:03:22.400
<v Speaker 1>just personal interactions with people in the real world. I'll

1103
01:03:22.440 --> 01:03:24.280
<v Speaker 1>just give you a brief example before I give you

1104
01:03:24.320 --> 01:03:28.519
<v Speaker 1>the opportunity to answer. I remember being in university and

1105
01:03:29.239 --> 01:03:32.320
<v Speaker 1>answering or making a comment in class that has a

1106
01:03:32.320 --> 01:03:35.599
<v Speaker 1>little bit of a veiled reference to a meme before

1107
01:03:35.719 --> 01:03:38.960
<v Speaker 1>memes was really even a thing. But at that time,

1108
01:03:40.440 --> 01:03:43.239
<v Speaker 1>making a little reference to a meme, there would be

1109
01:03:43.400 --> 01:03:45.840
<v Speaker 1>one guy in the class that looks around at you,

1110
01:03:45.880 --> 01:03:47.679
<v Speaker 1>and you make eye contact and he's pointing at you,

1111
01:03:47.719 --> 01:03:49.639
<v Speaker 1>and you're like, you know, if you know, you know,

1112
01:03:49.719 --> 01:03:52.920
<v Speaker 1>you know what I did there. But today that would

1113
01:03:52.920 --> 01:03:56.320
<v Speaker 1>not be the experience. Today, I would make that reference

1114
01:03:56.440 --> 01:03:59.519
<v Speaker 1>to a basic meme and everyone in the class with

1115
01:03:59.679 --> 01:04:02.159
<v Speaker 1>note it would not even be something. They would not

1116
01:04:02.159 --> 01:04:03.920
<v Speaker 1>even be a laugh, It would just be part of

1117
01:04:03.960 --> 01:04:06.639
<v Speaker 1>the lingo. It would just be part of the slang

1118
01:04:06.719 --> 01:04:11.440
<v Speaker 1>that's being used. And that's really something that's changed from

1119
01:04:11.480 --> 01:04:16.119
<v Speaker 1>what I've experienced, is that the online references, memes, if

1120
01:04:16.159 --> 01:04:20.000
<v Speaker 1>you will, or online humor and slang is constantly, in

1121
01:04:20.039 --> 01:04:25.239
<v Speaker 1>my experience, increasingly bleeding into the real world. How have

1122
01:04:25.400 --> 01:04:28.840
<v Speaker 1>you experienced it just in your own personal capacity, that

1123
01:04:29.400 --> 01:04:34.199
<v Speaker 1>online real world barrier in regards to basic things like,

1124
01:04:34.239 --> 01:04:37.519
<v Speaker 1>as I said, the language people use, the references they make,

1125
01:04:37.920 --> 01:04:42.280
<v Speaker 1>maybe even the culture that they as an individual or practicing.

1126
01:04:42.280 --> 01:04:46.039
<v Speaker 1>Have you also seen that increase in that line being blurred?

1127
01:04:47.079 --> 01:04:49.679
<v Speaker 2>Oh, I mean one hundred percent. I've said before. My wife,

1128
01:04:50.159 --> 01:04:52.559
<v Speaker 2>you know, worked as a teacher and for the kids

1129
01:04:52.599 --> 01:04:56.519
<v Speaker 2>in kind of elementary school. It's it's oppressive and omnipresent.

1130
01:04:57.280 --> 01:05:01.320
<v Speaker 2>Ask ask anyone with small children, uh the significance of

1131
01:05:01.360 --> 01:05:04.679
<v Speaker 2>the phrase six seven uh, and you'll understand that, like

1132
01:05:04.760 --> 01:05:08.360
<v Speaker 2>meme culture has just completely and totally take it over

1133
01:05:08.400 --> 01:05:11.360
<v Speaker 2>the globe. But on a more serious level, you know,

1134
01:05:11.400 --> 01:05:14.400
<v Speaker 2>as the Internet has gotten more political for good or

1135
01:05:14.400 --> 01:05:18.239
<v Speaker 2>for ill, and people have gotten more online. I've certainly

1136
01:05:18.320 --> 01:05:21.199
<v Speaker 2>seen it. I mean among my friend group, which is

1137
01:05:21.440 --> 01:05:24.079
<v Speaker 2>you know, right of center guys, but not necessarily the

1138
01:05:24.079 --> 01:05:26.480
<v Speaker 2>people that we you know, I talk politics with you,

1139
01:05:26.679 --> 01:05:28.840
<v Speaker 2>just the guys I you know, watch sports with or

1140
01:05:28.880 --> 01:05:32.840
<v Speaker 2>grab beers with. H. The amount of content that was

1141
01:05:32.920 --> 01:05:39.039
<v Speaker 2>previously highly censored and not at all for normal people

1142
01:05:39.719 --> 01:05:43.199
<v Speaker 2>that I hear is is constant. I mean, look, you know,

1143
01:05:43.280 --> 01:05:45.320
<v Speaker 2>not not to you know, blow up your spot here,

1144
01:05:45.320 --> 01:05:48.119
<v Speaker 2>but like the amount of times that bb Net and

1145
01:05:48.199 --> 01:05:51.400
<v Speaker 2>Yahoo personally is used as the punchline to a joke.

1146
01:05:52.039 --> 01:05:53.719
<v Speaker 2>You know, the idea that, oh, you know, if you

1147
01:05:53.760 --> 01:05:56.360
<v Speaker 2>didn't pay your bar tab on time, oh now your

1148
01:05:56.480 --> 01:05:59.480
<v Speaker 2>rabbi blah blah blah, and like, okay, those aren't super

1149
01:06:00.000 --> 01:06:02.760
<v Speaker 2>phisticated ideas, you know, it's not like there's a wealth

1150
01:06:03.000 --> 01:06:05.639
<v Speaker 2>of you know, political theory behind it or even a

1151
01:06:05.679 --> 01:06:09.239
<v Speaker 2>super developed idea. But you see something. You see a meme,

1152
01:06:09.320 --> 01:06:13.280
<v Speaker 2>an attitude which even relatively recently, like three or four

1153
01:06:13.320 --> 01:06:16.599
<v Speaker 2>years ago, would have been completely and totally inappropriate. The

1154
01:06:16.639 --> 01:06:18.800
<v Speaker 2>sort of things where it's like, all right, come on, guys,

1155
01:06:18.880 --> 01:06:22.800
<v Speaker 2>like don't say that has now achieved the point of

1156
01:06:22.800 --> 01:06:26.679
<v Speaker 2>being you know, barroom banter. The things that guys just say,

1157
01:06:26.880 --> 01:06:29.000
<v Speaker 2>you know, to fill air while you're you know, watching

1158
01:06:29.039 --> 01:06:31.119
<v Speaker 2>the game, or someone goes up to grab another beer,

1159
01:06:31.280 --> 01:06:34.880
<v Speaker 2>something like that. So I've seen it, I mean, honestly,

1160
01:06:36.239 --> 01:06:39.760
<v Speaker 2>much much more so than you'd think, and as much

1161
01:06:39.760 --> 01:06:41.519
<v Speaker 2>as I'm sorry to say it, on both the right

1162
01:06:41.559 --> 01:06:44.880
<v Speaker 2>and the left, what I have noticed is that there

1163
01:06:44.960 --> 01:06:50.119
<v Speaker 2>is a minority of lefties that are much much more

1164
01:06:50.239 --> 01:06:56.400
<v Speaker 2>aware of our symbols and our phrasing than there used

1165
01:06:56.400 --> 01:06:59.079
<v Speaker 2>to be. So obviously, you know, if you go in

1166
01:06:59.559 --> 01:07:02.719
<v Speaker 2>you know where, one of a certain number of prescribed flags,

1167
01:07:02.840 --> 01:07:04.519
<v Speaker 2>you're probably going to get thrown out of a bar.

1168
01:07:05.320 --> 01:07:09.119
<v Speaker 2>We understand this, right, But I've heard half a dozen

1169
01:07:09.159 --> 01:07:11.960
<v Speaker 2>stories now of guys wearing you know, a T shirt

1170
01:07:12.039 --> 01:07:16.280
<v Speaker 2>or a pin for something relatively obscure. You know, a

1171
01:07:16.320 --> 01:07:19.719
<v Speaker 2>record label maybe who published some authors or published some

1172
01:07:19.800 --> 01:07:22.679
<v Speaker 2>musicians you're not supposed to listen to, or a publishing

1173
01:07:22.679 --> 01:07:25.480
<v Speaker 2>house that you know, you or I could probably get

1174
01:07:25.480 --> 01:07:27.519
<v Speaker 2>a book there if we wanted, you know, nothing crazy.

1175
01:07:28.079 --> 01:07:31.679
<v Speaker 2>So I think that that sort of dissemination and politicization

1176
01:07:32.519 --> 01:07:36.280
<v Speaker 2>is I mean, it's cranking up. I realize these are anecdotes,

1177
01:07:36.320 --> 01:07:38.440
<v Speaker 2>but it's what I'm seeing on the ground. You know,

1178
01:07:38.519 --> 01:07:40.880
<v Speaker 2>things that used to be on the far far fringes

1179
01:07:40.880 --> 01:07:44.960
<v Speaker 2>of the Internet are now, you know, in your local

1180
01:07:45.000 --> 01:07:45.639
<v Speaker 2>gaming group.

1181
01:07:47.960 --> 01:07:51.960
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. Absolutely, And I mean just it's happened in such

1182
01:07:51.960 --> 01:07:55.000
<v Speaker 1>a short period of time, and I'll postpone or leave

1183
01:07:55.039 --> 01:07:58.320
<v Speaker 1>that for the next conversation. In regards to the particular

1184
01:07:58.400 --> 01:08:02.360
<v Speaker 1>effect on culture that the internet has had, it's happened

1185
01:08:02.400 --> 01:08:05.239
<v Speaker 1>in such a short period of time. It's pretty much

1186
01:08:05.320 --> 01:08:09.920
<v Speaker 1>in a teen year, and that this radical change has happened.

1187
01:08:09.960 --> 01:08:14.599
<v Speaker 1>Where me making a reference to a very popular meme

1188
01:08:14.719 --> 01:08:18.920
<v Speaker 1>online in a classroom of two hundred students gets one reaction,

1189
01:08:19.239 --> 01:08:22.640
<v Speaker 1>a very very nice reaction, because you didn't expect anyone

1190
01:08:22.680 --> 01:08:26.680
<v Speaker 1>to get the meme, where today it's just normal. A

1191
01:08:26.720 --> 01:08:29.800
<v Speaker 1>lot of trumpisms have become very normal. I've been in

1192
01:08:29.880 --> 01:08:34.399
<v Speaker 1>conversation and someone will talk about many such cases. I'm like,

1193
01:08:35.239 --> 01:08:37.359
<v Speaker 1>you have no idea where I know for a fact,

1194
01:08:37.399 --> 01:08:39.520
<v Speaker 1>you don't know where that phrase comes from, but you're

1195
01:08:39.600 --> 01:08:41.479
<v Speaker 1>using it just like you would use an idiom.

1196
01:08:42.560 --> 01:08:46.000
<v Speaker 2>Well, I can think of an instance where someone said

1197
01:08:46.039 --> 01:08:49.359
<v Speaker 2>the phrase boy slop, you know, without having any idea

1198
01:08:49.439 --> 01:08:52.560
<v Speaker 2>the connotation, and I'm like, that's very funny, but you

1199
01:08:52.600 --> 01:08:56.560
<v Speaker 2>should not say that you don't know exactly what that means.

1200
01:08:56.640 --> 01:08:58.760
<v Speaker 2>And you know, we can agree or disagree with the

1201
01:08:58.800 --> 01:09:01.960
<v Speaker 2>message of that seeing that term all right, something that

1202
01:09:01.960 --> 01:09:04.000
<v Speaker 2>came out of like the you had to be really

1203
01:09:04.079 --> 01:09:06.479
<v Speaker 2>hyper online to have hit that when it first came

1204
01:09:06.479 --> 01:09:10.880
<v Speaker 2>out to sort of escape into the wild. You know,

1205
01:09:10.880 --> 01:09:12.479
<v Speaker 2>it would be like if I walked outside and saw

1206
01:09:12.479 --> 01:09:15.199
<v Speaker 2>a zebra, be like, how did this get here? You know,

1207
01:09:15.279 --> 01:09:17.920
<v Speaker 2>I know this existed, but why is it in my garden?

1208
01:09:18.159 --> 01:09:22.760
<v Speaker 1>You know, it's like talking to someone in twenty fourteen

1209
01:09:22.840 --> 01:09:25.199
<v Speaker 1>or twenty fifteen and they're like, you know who Jordan

1210
01:09:25.279 --> 01:09:27.840
<v Speaker 1>Peterson is? And You're like, how do you know that name?

1211
01:09:28.479 --> 01:09:30.760
<v Speaker 1>Like you're not supposed to have this forbid and knowledge.

1212
01:09:30.800 --> 01:09:34.399
<v Speaker 1>And then today you'll just like be listening to like

1213
01:09:34.520 --> 01:09:37.920
<v Speaker 1>public radio and someone will be quoting Jordan Peterson on

1214
01:09:37.960 --> 01:09:40.880
<v Speaker 1>like South African public radio and will not be strange.

1215
01:09:41.279 --> 01:09:43.239
<v Speaker 1>I'm just like, yeah, that's just it's just one of

1216
01:09:43.279 --> 01:09:44.199
<v Speaker 1>the people of our time.

1217
01:09:47.399 --> 01:09:50.079
<v Speaker 2>No, definitely, we'll get Ernest. Thank you so much for

1218
01:09:50.119 --> 01:09:53.079
<v Speaker 2>having me. This was a fascinating discussion, and I it's

1219
01:09:53.119 --> 01:09:55.680
<v Speaker 2>an interesting question because it's not one where you and

1220
01:09:55.720 --> 01:09:59.079
<v Speaker 2>I could set up an experiment and prove it. You know,

1221
01:09:59.199 --> 01:10:01.880
<v Speaker 2>this is exactly the degree it's not possible to quantify,

1222
01:10:03.720 --> 01:10:06.359
<v Speaker 2>but there are multiple interesting perspectives and I feel like

1223
01:10:06.399 --> 01:10:09.000
<v Speaker 2>we at least gave every side of this a fair shake.

1224
01:10:09.119 --> 01:10:11.079
<v Speaker 2>So again, thank you so much for having me on.

1225
01:10:12.159 --> 01:10:14.920
<v Speaker 1>And yeah, thank you for sharing your ideas. Again on

1226
01:10:14.960 --> 01:10:20.039
<v Speaker 1>the topic of the online content creation side of this topic.

1227
01:10:20.640 --> 01:10:23.000
<v Speaker 1>The last question I have few is just housekeeping. If

1228
01:10:23.039 --> 01:10:26.039
<v Speaker 1>people are this is the first time they're hearing your

1229
01:10:26.079 --> 01:10:29.520
<v Speaker 1>ideas or your takes on mats is, where can they

1230
01:10:29.560 --> 01:10:31.439
<v Speaker 1>find more of your ideas if they want to go

1231
01:10:31.479 --> 01:10:33.680
<v Speaker 1>on a binge now after this episode?

1232
01:10:34.520 --> 01:10:38.319
<v Speaker 2>Of course, my primary output is the Jay Burdens Show,

1233
01:10:38.399 --> 01:10:41.560
<v Speaker 2>which you can find anywhere you listen to podcasts. Can

1234
01:10:41.600 --> 01:10:45.720
<v Speaker 2>also find me on substack for either premium episodes which

1235
01:10:45.760 --> 01:10:48.239
<v Speaker 2>are a little bit early, and also some articles or

1236
01:10:48.359 --> 01:10:51.880
<v Speaker 2>check out chronicles where I have written. I think there's

1237
01:10:51.920 --> 01:10:53.960
<v Speaker 2>three or four articles there, so you can find my

1238
01:10:54.079 --> 01:10:57.840
<v Speaker 2>longer form more serious content there as well. But Ernest,

1239
01:10:58.000 --> 01:10:59.800
<v Speaker 2>thank you so much. I appreciate it, and this is

1240
01:10:59.800 --> 01:11:00.680
<v Speaker 2>a time a fun man.

1241
01:11:01.880 --> 01:11:03.960
<v Speaker 1>No well, as I said, thank you very much for

1242
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<v Speaker 1>your insights here today, and I just want to read

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01:11:07.079 --> 01:11:09.520
<v Speaker 1>one more comment here from sideliner Opinions. It says Thank

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01:11:09.560 --> 01:11:12.000
<v Speaker 1>you Jay Burden for your friendship and support of Adams.

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01:11:12.159 --> 01:11:15.039
<v Speaker 1>Great to see two great minds from different continents connecting

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01:11:15.079 --> 01:11:18.640
<v Speaker 1>and producing new ideas well. Thank you very much Sideliner Opinions.

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<v Speaker 1>I really appreciate that. And then my last thanks is

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<v Speaker 1>just to the audience. Thank you for tuning in here

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01:11:23.399 --> 01:11:26.920
<v Speaker 1>on a Wednesday evening usually on a Tuesday evening. Thank

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01:11:26.960 --> 01:11:29.039
<v Speaker 1>you very much for your comments and your questions that

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01:11:29.079 --> 01:11:32.039
<v Speaker 1>I could incorporate into the content. And then also all

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01:11:32.079 --> 01:11:34.800
<v Speaker 1>the links to Jay Burden's content is in the description.

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<v Speaker 1>Go check it out. Next week. On this Tuesday, seven

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01:11:40.199 --> 01:11:45.000
<v Speaker 1>o'clock Central Africa time, is another episode live. It's just

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01:11:45.039 --> 01:11:48.399
<v Speaker 1>going to be a discussion stream me and you, no guest,

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<v Speaker 1>it's one of the milestone episodes for this channel. We've

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<v Speaker 1>been doing a lot of them recently. We recently did

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<v Speaker 1>the one million views milestone and now it's the ten

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01:11:58.119 --> 01:12:01.199
<v Speaker 1>years milestone, a decade of content on this channel. So

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<v Speaker 1>thank you very much for everyone that tune in, and

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<v Speaker 1>Jay Burden, I hope you have a fantastic rest of

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<v Speaker 1>your week and we'll chat again real soon.

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<v Speaker 2>Thank you.

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<v Speaker 1>And then also to the audience, cheers, guys, have a

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<v Speaker 1>good one God. Bless and enjoy your weekend. I'll chat

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<v Speaker 1>to you again. Cheers,