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Speaker 1: Hey, you can find all of my podcasts in one location,

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all seventeen of them.

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Speaker 2: Sure.

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Speaker 1: I love the platforms that have been available all these years,

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but it's now time to centralize it Aero dot net,

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a r r E dot net And thank you so

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much for your support for all these years. Oh the

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two of you guys. What an amazing podcast. In the

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way of understanding, I don't know, there's just a it

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opened up my heart, my eyes, my emotions because when

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I heard of the peace Maker, and it's one of

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those where I'm going, well, wait a second, that's what

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I study. I study peace I study this. But then

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we see a different side of this story because you

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guys went in and did the homework.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, well, thank you for your interest. It's this crazy

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story of this suicide cluster at a prestigious Missouri college

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and it takes place at a fraternity called Alpha kapaal

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Anda and one school year, one fraternity member after another

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started killing themselves and they all had connections to the

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same guy. They were all super close with the same

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guy called Brandon Grossheim.

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Speaker 1: So right away, I mean, I'm going to tell you

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how I felt, and when I was going into each episode,

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I felt like, is this a cult? Is this guy

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controlling people's minds? What is going on here? To where

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it's happening? And so the mystery that you guys put

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into this, I think it's the glue that keeps us

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all going to the next episode. I got to hear more,

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give me more, I gotta have it.

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Speaker 2: I'm glad you feel that way, because I know we

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felt that way whenever we were making this thing, just

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we had we always wanted to talk to that next person,

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get that next interview, find out that next piece of

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the puzzle, and what a complicated puzzle it is.

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Speaker 4: And I mean, yeah, in.

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Speaker 2: Some ways you just can't even believe the story given

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the fact that you know, these were kind of well

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to do kids.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, you know, came from good.

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Speaker 2: Fan and write this prestigious university and you know you're

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not the first person to draw, you know, the parallel

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to to a cult here. While obviously the fraternity was

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not a cult, there is maybe, at least in some

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people's minds, a similarity where I think it's kind of

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well known that the cult leaders prey on people's vulnerabilities.

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Maybe there their sense of community, that sort of thing, companionship,

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and the people who think that Brandon Grossheim has some

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serious explaining to do. They accused him of similar things,

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kind of seeking out vulnerable people, praying on those vulnerabilities,

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and you know, sort of turning their close relationship into

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something pretty twisted.

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Speaker 4: Well.

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Speaker 1: I had a WTF moment though, when I heard that that,

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you know, that Jake's girlfriend was now at the side

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of Brandon. I'm going, what what are you talking about?

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Speaker 3: This?

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Speaker 1: This came from Adam left Field.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, this guy, Brandon Grossheim, is being sued by some

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of the parents of the victims for encouraging allegedly their

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sons to kill themselves. And this is one of the

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details that they bring up. They said, not only did

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he date the girlfriend of the second suicide victim, but

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he dated girlfriends of other suicide victims as well. You know,

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it's almost like some guys have a type, you know,

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some guys like blonde, some guys like brunettes, and this

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guy seemed to like dating girlfriends of suicide victims.

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Speaker 1: Mmmmmmm. One of the things that I that I put

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in my notes in experiencing the podcast, and it is

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experiencing it. It's not listening to it. It's physically experiencing it,

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because that's the kind of emotion that you put into it.

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The depth of this story, it's going to put people

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in a cavern of multiple questions as well as fear

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you are affecting us on this side of that speaker.

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Speaker 2: And I'm so glad to hear you say that, because

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that's definitely something we were shooting for. This is a complicated,

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sorts of nuanced story, and I know maybe the central

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question at its core is what is Brandon Grosstheim's palpability here?

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Speaker 4: And for me, with the cavern I.

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Speaker 2: Kept finding myself in was you know, some days I

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would think, oh my god, this guy needs to be

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locked up. Other times I'd be more sympathetic to him

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and thinking, man, this guy's just profoundly unlucky to keep

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having people close to him to take their own lives.

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And some days, whenever we were working on this thing,

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you know, I'd alternate back and forth in the course

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of one day, in the course of one eight hour workday.

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So I really hope that people, you know, who are

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listening to these eight episodes, they'll have their own kind

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of journeys going back and forth. And we really try

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to embrace all angles of this thing, give everyone a

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fair hearing. We're not trying to tell a simple, simple story.

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We understand this is complicated, and we're trying to just

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lay it all out, as you know, as an intriguing

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way as possible.

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Speaker 1: You said one of my favorite words, complicated. Now, I

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want to see your guys's notes. I want to see

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what you guys put on paper on that yellow tablet probably,

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And you were trying to build this story, and it

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was like, okay, are we doing this in chronological order?

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What are we going to do? How can we put

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it in here? Because I would love to see how

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you built this podcast.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, well there are there are actually five victims in

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this story. That's a little bit of a spoiler because

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the last victim was actually not a traditional suicide. In fact,

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she pretty much drank herself to dat and the last

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person she saw before she died, like minutes before she

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died was you can probably guess by now, this guy,

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Brandon gross High. And so how did these stories all

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tie together? That was kind of the central storytelling part

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of it that we wanted to figure out what was

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motivating him and how did this all happen?

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Speaker 1: I'll tell you where I freaked out. He wouldn't touch

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that second body. It was too stiff. I'm going that's

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kind of a bullshit answer. What are you talking about here, dude?

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I mean, what do you mean it was? I mean,

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what would you guys have done? Would you've taken the

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body down?

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Speaker 2: Yeah?

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Speaker 4: I don't. That is such a good question.

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Speaker 2: And so many times, you know, I wondered myself, what

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would I do in this situation?

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Speaker 4: What would I do in that situation?

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Speaker 2: And I think one of the things that really makes

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this up an experience, like you said, rather than something

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you just listened to, is we were very lucky from

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a reporting perspective in that the we were able to

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get the audio from the bodycams of the police officers

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who again and again kept responding to this one fraternity

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house every time someone took their own life. So we

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kind of using that audio from bodycams that was capturing

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the exact moments after these things happened, plus interviews with

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people kind of reflecting with a little bit of hindsight,

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we are really, you know, trying to put people at

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this fraternity house as these events are unfolding, and rah

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for me and I hope for listeners, it does spark

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that question of you know, we're putting you in this position.

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We're kind of making you like you're in this space

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and time what we do. So that's exactly I'm so

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glad to hear you say that, because that's exactly what

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we were hoping listeners and viewers would get out of this.

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Speaker 1: Well, that bodycm sound, that to me added a texture

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to your podcast which made it unique in its own right.

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And I'll tell you what, I paid such close attention

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to it because those microphones will pick up everything. So

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I was listening to the background, I was listening to

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the people talking, I was listening the way people were moving.

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So it really does work in the way of painting

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that picture for listeners.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I'm so glad to hear Curious say that.

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Speaker 2: And Yeah, the kind of quirk here, I guess you

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could say is I do a lot of reporting just

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as a kind of day to day basis, and so

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often you want to get a hold of records from

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law enforcement and the courts, but they can't release things

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like bodycam audio because there's a pending criminal investigation. In

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this case, the criminal investigation is all wrapped up and

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it's really just there's one mother who the one of

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the sons who took his own life. She's leading this

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civil action against Brandon, and she's a big resource for us.

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We interview her quite a bit as part of the podcast.

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And it's because there was no criminal liability anymore. It's

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just a matter of this guy going to trial on

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a civil basis. That there was kind of an unusual

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amount of material that was opened via Missouri's public record laws,

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and we really, I hope, made the most of it

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in order to kind of create this unique listening experience.

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Speaker 1: So what would you have done if you would have

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been one of the students on the campus and here

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comes Brandon wearing Jake's clothes. You see how this emotionally

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gets to me. He's wearing Jake's clothes.

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Speaker 5: Dude, Yeah, I think I would have done what the

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fraternity ended up doing, which is about half row through

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the academic year that this all took place.

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Speaker 2: They basically booted Brandon out of the fraternity and he

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had he lived.

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Speaker 4: Still in Kirksville near.

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Speaker 2: Campus, that in an apartment complex. And you know, this

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is just where it gets hard to believe and just

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even more tragic, But there were two more deaths, including

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the one that Ben mentioned about the young woman who

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basically drank herself to death at that apartment complex where

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Brandon moves into. So it's just even after the fraternity

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kind of got rid of this guy, just tragedy and

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death continued to follow him.

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Speaker 1: Please do not move. There's more with Ben West and

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Ryan Kroll coming up next, the name of the podcast

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The Peacemaker. We are back with Ben West and Ryan

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Kroll as the journalist as the producer. How did you

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locate balance in this storyline? Because it can go in

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any direction, and when you're talking about suicide those of

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us on this side as well as that campus, that

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gets inside the head and heart and can actually poison us.

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But I don't feel that in this podcast.

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Speaker 4: Oh I'm so glad to hear you say that.

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Speaker 2: So yeah, we're definitely, like, you know, we wanted to

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tell the story from all sides. But then yeah, we're

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also are cognizant of this phenomenon of suicide clusters. And

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this is the case where reporting on suicide can actually

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lead additional people to take their their their own lives.

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Speaker 4: There can be a contagion effect.

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Speaker 2: So we wanted to be you know, extra responsible and

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how we were reporting the story, and we include a

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lot of resources about what to do if you yourself

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were experiencing suicidal ideation or a loved one.

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Speaker 4: Is And because exactly to your point, we didn't want to.

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Speaker 2: Romanticize glorify suicide in any way, shape or form. So

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that was kind of a prime directive for us from

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the get go was how can we tell this story

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about suicide cluster and contagion without being a vector for

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its spread. And you know, we didn't just trust ourselves

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for that. We talked to a lot of suicide prevention

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experts through in the podcast. They kind of gave us

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some guidance on how to report this, and I think

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the podcast is much much better for it.

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Speaker 1: How did Josh Thomas find it in his heart to

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trust Brandon, Because I mean, I mean, if you if

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you've got a lot of stuff that's going down and

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and fingers are being pointed somewhere, it's like Josh still

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hung in there.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, that is that is a great question.

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Speaker 2: So, yeah, he was the third fraternity member to take

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his own life, and that was in the this that

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was in the spring. Whereas his his two fraternity brothers

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had already taken their own life and the fall, the

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previous fall, So that that is a great question, and

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you know, you sort of wonder, Yeah, with the benefit

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of hindsight, how could this guy open up and connect

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with with Brandon and the way that he did. I guess,

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I guess I would just say that you know that

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that fraternity connection, I mean, they call it a brotherhood

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for a reason, right, Like, it's it's a very close connection,

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it's a close bond. And he would have been someone

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who knew Brandon before those two guys took their own life,

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before Brandon kind of got this reputation.

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Speaker 4: So I think it's, you know, kind of you can't put.

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Speaker 2: Yourself in his shoes and see how Jake might have

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confided in him. And also kind of one of the

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things that we kept hearing about whenever we were trying

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to better understand Brandon, people who knew him told us this.

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They said, you know, he sort of sought out people

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who were in states of crisis, people who were depressed,

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who were kind of going through it, you know.

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Speaker 4: So it seems very very.

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Speaker 2: Likely that he would have sought out Jake in that

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exact I'm sorry, Josh in that exact in that exact instance.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, but you know, here's here's the thing, dude, is

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that I I don't. I think it's because I would

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say that I'm a people watcher or a silent wolf.

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I can spot somebody who was down in a heartbeat.

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But this podcast is going to change me because I'm

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not going to go see I'm the solution maker or

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the peacemaker. But god dang, this guy could spot him

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in a heartbeat. And it's like, okay, so where are

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we going with this than mister Brandon.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, exactly.

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Speaker 2: So he that was the nickname he gave himself was

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the peace Maker because you know, he's basically to kind

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of paraphrase, you know, he's with someone who fancied himself

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like a you know, a guidance council and amateur psychologists

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that kind of thing, and he thought he could bring

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peace to people who are going through turmoil. And yeah,

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he really I think, you know, we have a line

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in the podcast. He kind of ran towards other people's

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affliction the way that some people who fancy themselves heroes

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might run towards the burning house. Right.

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Speaker 4: He sort of saw there was this problem, and I.

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Speaker 2: Think people who maybe want to go to him the

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benefit of the doubt might say that he thought like

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he was the man to solve it, right, he thought

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he had the answers. But clearly you have to it's

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pretty plain that was not the case, given the fact

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that these guys all took their own lives. So we

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don't know exactly in every instance what he said to

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these young men, but I mean, holy smokes, like the

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outcome is just the worst of the worst that they

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ended up ending it all.

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Speaker 1: And my heart is still flooded with so many deep

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quoesquestions in the way of wanting to know why isn't

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Brandon considered to be a serial killer, probably because he

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didn't do the actual killing. And number two, why is

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nobody brought up why isn't anybody brought up doctor Kvorkian

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Because he sat with people too, And it's like, because

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I'm trying to figure out is Brandon a good guy

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here or a bad guy? And oh my god, am

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I going to court for saying that?

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Speaker 2: Sure, sure, I see what you're saying. So yeah, the

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Kavorkian angle is an interesting one, and he was like

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kind of a reference point for Ben and I whenever

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we were really right in the same Yeah. Yeah, But

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I think the key sort of difference here. I don't

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pretend to be an expert on doctor Kiborkian, but you

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know he was he was working with people who who

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you know, had terminal illness, who wanted to in their

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own life, and it was kind of a more uh,

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you know, measured considered act. As strange as that it

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is to say about suicide was in the case of

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these young people at this university. I mean, they were

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in many cases depressed or had other kind of mental

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health issues. But you know, those are temporary problems that

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can be solved. You know, suicide is a permanent act.

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So it's it's just not the way to go under

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any circumstance for someone who is, you know, struggling with depression,

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that sort of thing. So I get the Kavorkian angle

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for sure, but kind of give you a little bit

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if you look at a little more complicated to use

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that word again, those are those are just these are

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just totally different circumstances.

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Speaker 1: So when when you went into this project, did you

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already know that he stole the money and drugs and

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the thing or did that come to you is a

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oh my god, WTF moment.

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Speaker 6: That's a great question, is this It can be the

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difficult to remember which you learned when a lot of

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the initial facts of this case were in this lawsuit

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that was filed by the parents of some of the victims,

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the suicide victims against Brandon Grossheim.

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Speaker 4: I don't know that.

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Speaker 2: I can't remember exactly if I believe that the idea

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that he took things was something that that we came

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from interviews we did with fraternity members. The detail about

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wearing the clothes of the victims was in that initial lawsuit.

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But really, I mean, anytime you read a lawsuit, it's

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just it's usually kind of bare bones information, that sort

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of thing.

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Speaker 4: There's not a lot of detail. And yeah, we've had

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a lot of you know, holy cow moments.

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Speaker 2: Whenever we really started talking to the people who were

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there at the time and were sort of attendant, you know,

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witnesses as all of this was going down. I think

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the one thing that really kind of sticks with me

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was Ben did this great interview with a woman who

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was at Truman Stand at the time, who knew a

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lot of these people knew branded and She said that

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she heard that Brandon actually texted instructions on how to

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tie in noose some of these young men. And that

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is just like a very visceral detail that it just

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you know, has stuck with me every day ever since

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I learned about it.

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Speaker 4: And I should say that this was just that's what

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she says.

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Speaker 2: You know, we don't have that text message, but I mean,

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but that's something that you know has really stuck with me.

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Speaker 1: See, that's the kind of stuff that I will not

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watch it on YouTube. I don't need to learn how

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to do anything like that because I and then for

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him to do that, it's like, dude, you stepped over

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across that line. Now what's next. It's almost like you

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gave me an invitation.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, exactly.

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Speaker 2: And that's that's the poor opposite of what you want

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to do. Whenever someone is expressing, you know, thoughts of

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suicide that sort of thing, you want to you know,

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redirect them towards resources. You don't want to be a

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resource of how to kill yourself. I mean that should

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go without saying, but clearly, you know it does need

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to be said.

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Speaker 1: You your journalism is just mind blowing to me because

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you got you guys understand it. You you physically have

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got to be able to see who your listeners are.

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And I can feel that you do what what is

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your next project? Because you can't be stopping at this one.

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You're too damn good at what you do.

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Speaker 2: I really appreciate you saying that, and yeah, we are

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thinking about what we want to do next. One idea

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that we been bouncing around is in my and Ben's

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hometown of Saint Louis, there was this cult that was

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occupying really high end real estates in the suburbs, and

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they've now been indicted on forced labor conspiracy for forcing

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people to work ellish hours at a sort of holy

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hall center, calling up people getting them to donations, to

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getting them to give donations to a fake church. And

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it's just a fascinating story for a lot of reasons,

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one of which is that one of the mansions they

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occupied was sort of famous locally because it used to

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belong to the rapper Nelly.

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Speaker 4: So it's a totally different story.

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Speaker 2: But I think to your previous point, it has to

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do with someone praying on other people's vulnerabilities, other.

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Speaker 4: People's desire for a sense of community.

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Speaker 2: So yeah, we are looking into that to kind of

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explore how this cult, which by all accounts lasted for

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about eighteen years from its inception, how it got so

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big it generated over fifty million dollars occupied, Like I said,

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a lot of these this high end real estate in

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Saint Louis and elsewhere. So we're really kind of curious to,

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you know, exploring the why and the how of that.

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Speaker 1: Wow, you've got to come back to this show when

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that happens, because I want to continue having a conversation

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with you. Dude.

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Speaker 4: Hey, right, I appreciate it, so appreciate that.

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Speaker 2: And yeah, whenever that thing comes out, you'll be you'll

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be our first stop.

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Speaker 1: Axel, will you be brilliant today?

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Speaker 4: Okay, hey, yeah, you did the same. It was great

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talking to you.

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Speaker 1: Thank you. God, damn, that's fucking scary shit. Go on,

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stop