WEBVTT

1
00:00:30.199 --> 00:00:32.759
<v Speaker 1>Welcome back to the Path Went Chile for part two

2
00:00:32.840 --> 00:00:36.479
<v Speaker 1>of our series about the unexplained death of Jack Wheeler. Robin,

3
00:00:36.520 --> 00:00:38.039
<v Speaker 1>do you want to catch everyone up and what we

4
00:00:38.079 --> 00:00:39.640
<v Speaker 1>talked about in our previous episode?

5
00:00:40.840 --> 00:00:43.039
<v Speaker 2>Well, this case was featured on the second season of

6
00:00:43.079 --> 00:00:46.000
<v Speaker 2>Unsolved Mysteries that came out about four years ago. Jack

7
00:00:46.039 --> 00:00:48.799
<v Speaker 2>Wheeler was sixty six years old, had a very distinguished

8
00:00:48.840 --> 00:00:52.079
<v Speaker 2>career in Washington, d c. He had worked through three

9
00:00:52.159 --> 00:00:56.399
<v Speaker 2>presidential administrations and he had all helped establish the Vietnam

10
00:00:56.520 --> 00:00:59.759
<v Speaker 2>Veterans Memorial. But he also had struggles with depression and

11
00:01:00.119 --> 00:01:04.079
<v Speaker 2>polar disorder, which he tried to control with medication. But

12
00:01:04.400 --> 00:01:06.920
<v Speaker 2>shortly before New Year's Even twenty ten, he had been

13
00:01:06.959 --> 00:01:09.439
<v Speaker 2>spending holidays with his family, but then decided to make

14
00:01:09.480 --> 00:01:13.120
<v Speaker 2>an impromptu trip to Washington to continue working. But then,

15
00:01:13.120 --> 00:01:16.040
<v Speaker 2>without telling anyone, he decided to go to Wilmington, Delaware,

16
00:01:16.079 --> 00:01:18.400
<v Speaker 2>where he owned a second home. He had been having

17
00:01:18.439 --> 00:01:22.040
<v Speaker 2>an obsessive argument over the construction of a house located

18
00:01:22.079 --> 00:01:25.200
<v Speaker 2>across the street, and a neighbor wound up calling the

19
00:01:25.280 --> 00:01:28.200
<v Speaker 2>fire department because they saw smoke there, but instead it

20
00:01:28.239 --> 00:01:30.480
<v Speaker 2>turned out that someone had thrown smoke bombs trying to

21
00:01:30.560 --> 00:01:33.599
<v Speaker 2>destroy the ye location, and they found Jack Wheeler's cell

22
00:01:33.599 --> 00:01:36.439
<v Speaker 2>phone and they would eventually look inside his house and

23
00:01:36.480 --> 00:01:39.200
<v Speaker 2>it appeared to have been broken into, but it appeared

24
00:01:39.200 --> 00:01:42.840
<v Speaker 2>that Jack himself had caused the meths and possibly staged

25
00:01:42.879 --> 00:01:45.599
<v Speaker 2>the burglary, and over the course of the next two days,

26
00:01:45.599 --> 00:01:49.359
<v Speaker 2>he would be seen wandering around Wilmington, Delaware. He would

27
00:01:49.359 --> 00:01:51.760
<v Speaker 2>be captured on security camera. He would interact with a

28
00:01:51.799 --> 00:01:54.120
<v Speaker 2>lot of witnesses and they would say that he seemed

29
00:01:54.239 --> 00:01:57.400
<v Speaker 2>very disoriented, that he was asking people for rides and

30
00:01:57.439 --> 00:02:00.519
<v Speaker 2>going to locations he had no connection to, and his

31
00:02:00.599 --> 00:02:04.280
<v Speaker 2>appearance would get gradually worse, and he was last seen

32
00:02:04.359 --> 00:02:08.199
<v Speaker 2>heading towards the town of Newark, Delaware before he disappeared,

33
00:02:08.599 --> 00:02:11.120
<v Speaker 2>and the morning of December the thirty first, twenty ten,

34
00:02:11.199 --> 00:02:13.879
<v Speaker 2>they found his body in a landfill. His death was

35
00:02:13.919 --> 00:02:16.520
<v Speaker 2>initially ruled to be a homicide due to blunt force

36
00:02:16.599 --> 00:02:18.599
<v Speaker 2>trauma because he had a lot of injuries that were

37
00:02:18.639 --> 00:02:21.840
<v Speaker 2>consistent with a beating, but they would gradually find out

38
00:02:21.919 --> 00:02:25.199
<v Speaker 2>that he had somehow wound up inside a dumpster, so

39
00:02:25.240 --> 00:02:27.560
<v Speaker 2>it was kind of ambiguous where his injuries caused. With

40
00:02:27.599 --> 00:02:30.479
<v Speaker 2>an encounter with another person who severely beat him and

41
00:02:30.479 --> 00:02:33.240
<v Speaker 2>put him in the dumpster, or the injuries caused by

42
00:02:33.280 --> 00:02:37.159
<v Speaker 2>the trash compactor, and the medical examiner mistook these injuries

43
00:02:37.159 --> 00:02:40.039
<v Speaker 2>for some sort of homicide. But of course, because Jack

44
00:02:40.080 --> 00:02:41.479
<v Speaker 2>worked with the government, there have been a lot of

45
00:02:41.479 --> 00:02:44.560
<v Speaker 2>conspiracy theories that someone was falling around and had him

46
00:02:44.680 --> 00:02:47.479
<v Speaker 2>killed because of work he was doing. But it's also

47
00:02:47.560 --> 00:02:49.879
<v Speaker 2>possible that there was no homicide at all, that his

48
00:02:49.960 --> 00:02:52.520
<v Speaker 2>death was just a tragic accident, that he had gone

49
00:02:52.520 --> 00:02:55.439
<v Speaker 2>off his medication, was having a manic episode because of

50
00:02:55.479 --> 00:02:58.919
<v Speaker 2>his bipolar disorder, and then crawled into the dumpster before

51
00:02:58.960 --> 00:03:01.840
<v Speaker 2>he died. But officially this is still considered to be

52
00:03:01.840 --> 00:03:04.759
<v Speaker 2>a homicide that the exact circumstances of Jack's death are

53
00:03:04.840 --> 00:03:08.280
<v Speaker 2>still unknown. So at our last episode, we discussed the

54
00:03:08.280 --> 00:03:11.680
<v Speaker 2>skepticism that arose from the presentation of Jack Wheeler's case

55
00:03:11.719 --> 00:03:14.479
<v Speaker 2>on the Unsolved Mysteries episode and whether or not they

56
00:03:14.520 --> 00:03:16.800
<v Speaker 2>were fudging the facts in order to fit a narrative

57
00:03:16.840 --> 00:03:19.599
<v Speaker 2>and add more mystery to the story. I think another

58
00:03:19.639 --> 00:03:22.599
<v Speaker 2>thing which may have helped influence people's interpretation of this

59
00:03:22.719 --> 00:03:26.240
<v Speaker 2>case is the release of the controversial true crime documentary

60
00:03:26.319 --> 00:03:30.120
<v Speaker 2>series Crime Scene The Vanishing at The Cecil Hotel, which

61
00:03:30.159 --> 00:03:32.919
<v Speaker 2>came out on Netflix in February of twenty twenty one.

62
00:03:33.400 --> 00:03:36.360
<v Speaker 2>It chronicled the twenty thirteen death of twenty one year

63
00:03:36.360 --> 00:03:39.360
<v Speaker 2>old Elisa Lamb, whose body was found inside a water

64
00:03:39.439 --> 00:03:41.680
<v Speaker 2>tank on top of the roof of the Cecil Hotel

65
00:03:41.719 --> 00:03:45.000
<v Speaker 2>in Los Angeles. The case attained a lot of notoriety

66
00:03:45.039 --> 00:03:47.400
<v Speaker 2>in the true crime world because of the release of

67
00:03:47.400 --> 00:03:51.000
<v Speaker 2>some security camera footage which showed a Lisa behaving erratically

68
00:03:51.039 --> 00:03:54.439
<v Speaker 2>inside a hotel elevator shortly before her death, and once

69
00:03:54.479 --> 00:03:57.120
<v Speaker 2>this video went viral, there were an endless amount of

70
00:03:57.159 --> 00:04:00.680
<v Speaker 2>theories about what happened to her. Well. Much like Jack Wheeler,

71
00:04:00.879 --> 00:04:03.879
<v Speaker 2>Alisa's struggled with bipolar disorder, and you can make a

72
00:04:03.960 --> 00:04:07.159
<v Speaker 2>number of parallels between these two cases since they both

73
00:04:07.199 --> 00:04:11.080
<v Speaker 2>involved victims displaying erratic behavior on camera before they wound

74
00:04:11.120 --> 00:04:14.599
<v Speaker 2>up dead under odd circumstances. Now, even though I had

75
00:04:14.680 --> 00:04:17.480
<v Speaker 2>received numerous requests to cover it on the Trail when Cold,

76
00:04:17.800 --> 00:04:19.920
<v Speaker 2>I pretty much decided that I would never do an

77
00:04:19.959 --> 00:04:23.120
<v Speaker 2>episode about the Elisa land case, as I always believed

78
00:04:23.120 --> 00:04:25.319
<v Speaker 2>that Elisa blinded into the water tank on her own

79
00:04:25.360 --> 00:04:27.920
<v Speaker 2>accord and her death was nothing more than a tragic

80
00:04:28.000 --> 00:04:31.839
<v Speaker 2>accident brought on by a mental health crisis. Unlike many

81
00:04:31.839 --> 00:04:34.959
<v Speaker 2>other cases of this ILK, Alisa's family shied away from

82
00:04:34.959 --> 00:04:37.240
<v Speaker 2>the spotlight and did not seem to think that any

83
00:04:37.279 --> 00:04:39.839
<v Speaker 2>foul play occurred. So, in spite of all the endless

84
00:04:39.839 --> 00:04:43.160
<v Speaker 2>speculation about her death online, I really did not think

85
00:04:43.199 --> 00:04:45.959
<v Speaker 2>that a crime took place. I know that a number

86
00:04:46.000 --> 00:04:48.040
<v Speaker 2>of people were not happy when it was announced that

87
00:04:48.120 --> 00:04:51.240
<v Speaker 2>Netflix would be releasing a documentary series about this case,

88
00:04:51.480 --> 00:04:55.279
<v Speaker 2>and felt they were needlessly exploiting the situation. But after

89
00:04:55.319 --> 00:04:58.439
<v Speaker 2>the first three episodes focused on all the wild conspiracy

90
00:04:58.480 --> 00:05:02.079
<v Speaker 2>theories surrounding Elisa's death and innocent people who were falsely

91
00:05:02.120 --> 00:05:05.800
<v Speaker 2>accused of murdering her, the final episode ultimately did reach

92
00:05:05.839 --> 00:05:09.079
<v Speaker 2>the conclusion that Alisa likely climbed into the water tank

93
00:05:09.199 --> 00:05:12.439
<v Speaker 2>on her own, was suffering through a manic episode, and drowned.

94
00:05:12.720 --> 00:05:15.160
<v Speaker 2>So you might be asking, if I was reluctant to

95
00:05:15.160 --> 00:05:17.759
<v Speaker 2>do an episode about Alisa Lamb, then why are we

96
00:05:17.879 --> 00:05:21.399
<v Speaker 2>doing one about Jack Wheeler. Well, the key difference between

97
00:05:21.439 --> 00:05:24.639
<v Speaker 2>the two cases is that Jack's death was officially ruled

98
00:05:24.720 --> 00:05:27.959
<v Speaker 2>to be a homicide. One of the major criticisms of

99
00:05:27.959 --> 00:05:31.040
<v Speaker 2>the Unsolved Mysteries episode is even though they presented the

100
00:05:31.079 --> 00:05:34.120
<v Speaker 2>scenario of Jack's body being loaded from a dumpster into

101
00:05:34.160 --> 00:05:37.519
<v Speaker 2>a garbage truck and transported to the landfill, they never

102
00:05:37.560 --> 00:05:40.480
<v Speaker 2>acknowledged the possibility that the injuries he had could have

103
00:05:40.480 --> 00:05:44.120
<v Speaker 2>been caused by the truck's trash compactor. It felt like

104
00:05:44.199 --> 00:05:46.959
<v Speaker 2>they were intentionally omitting this key detail in order to

105
00:05:46.959 --> 00:05:50.319
<v Speaker 2>make their narrative more mysterious. But that doesn't change the

106
00:05:50.360 --> 00:05:53.560
<v Speaker 2>fact that the medical examiner and some of the investigators

107
00:05:53.879 --> 00:05:56.839
<v Speaker 2>have expressed their belief that his injuries were consistent with

108
00:05:56.920 --> 00:06:00.600
<v Speaker 2>a beating. Oddly, it does not seem like Lawnman has

109
00:06:00.639 --> 00:06:04.240
<v Speaker 2>ever really acknowledged the trash compactor theory either, so you

110
00:06:04.319 --> 00:06:06.360
<v Speaker 2>have to wonder if they have good reason to believe

111
00:06:06.439 --> 00:06:07.560
<v Speaker 2>foul play took place.

112
00:06:08.879 --> 00:06:12.920
<v Speaker 3>Was the death ever reclassified as unknown or an accident

113
00:06:13.000 --> 00:06:14.680
<v Speaker 3>or anything like that, or is it still listed on

114
00:06:14.720 --> 00:06:16.040
<v Speaker 3>the books as a homicide.

115
00:06:16.439 --> 00:06:18.759
<v Speaker 2>It is still officially listed as a homicide, so they

116
00:06:18.800 --> 00:06:20.120
<v Speaker 2>never actually have changed it.

117
00:06:20.519 --> 00:06:22.680
<v Speaker 3>Wow, Because I know we talked about on the first episode.

118
00:06:22.680 --> 00:06:24.959
<v Speaker 3>One of the problems is the medical examiner did not

119
00:06:25.240 --> 00:06:29.600
<v Speaker 3>know about the trash compactor and things like that, so

120
00:06:29.639 --> 00:06:31.920
<v Speaker 3>when he saw the condition of the body, it was

121
00:06:32.079 --> 00:06:35.639
<v Speaker 3>very clear that something had happened to Jack. The injuries

122
00:06:35.639 --> 00:06:38.680
<v Speaker 3>indicated something like an assault and blunt force trauma being

123
00:06:38.680 --> 00:06:42.120
<v Speaker 3>the result of his death and so or the cause

124
00:06:42.120 --> 00:06:44.800
<v Speaker 3>of his death. And so once you add in the

125
00:06:44.920 --> 00:06:48.319
<v Speaker 3>fact of how his body was disposed of, or the

126
00:06:48.319 --> 00:06:51.480
<v Speaker 3>injuries that could have come from the transportation from the

127
00:06:51.560 --> 00:06:55.519
<v Speaker 3>bin to the landfill, it does create those question marks

128
00:06:55.519 --> 00:06:58.000
<v Speaker 3>of where did the injuries come from? Was it before

129
00:06:58.040 --> 00:07:00.519
<v Speaker 3>he entered that trash bin, or was it in the

130
00:07:00.560 --> 00:07:05.120
<v Speaker 3>process of them taking that trashmentto the landfill? And when

131
00:07:05.120 --> 00:07:07.519
<v Speaker 3>you look at that, it is very difficult, especially from

132
00:07:07.519 --> 00:07:11.360
<v Speaker 3>a family's perspective. It's ruled a homicide. You said it

133
00:07:11.399 --> 00:07:13.720
<v Speaker 3>was blunt force trauma. You've also mentioned a heart attack

134
00:07:13.839 --> 00:07:16.279
<v Speaker 3>was the main cause of his death. Did that come

135
00:07:16.319 --> 00:07:18.360
<v Speaker 3>as a result of the blunt force trauma and his

136
00:07:18.360 --> 00:07:21.839
<v Speaker 3>heart couldn't keep up with the internal injuries. There's just

137
00:07:21.920 --> 00:07:25.279
<v Speaker 3>not any answers there. It is interesting that they've never

138
00:07:25.319 --> 00:07:28.040
<v Speaker 3>reclassified anything, and they've kept it an open homicide case,

139
00:07:28.160 --> 00:07:31.360
<v Speaker 3>because if there was a possibility this was an accident

140
00:07:31.680 --> 00:07:35.680
<v Speaker 3>or this was unknown, I feel like police would try

141
00:07:35.720 --> 00:07:38.079
<v Speaker 3>to reclassify it so that they wouldn't have a cold

142
00:07:38.120 --> 00:07:41.519
<v Speaker 3>case lingering on their books, especially if there was indication

143
00:07:41.600 --> 00:07:45.360
<v Speaker 3>that this was a mental health crisis. It's frustrating. I'm

144
00:07:45.399 --> 00:07:47.519
<v Speaker 3>frustrated with the story, and I'm not even one of

145
00:07:47.519 --> 00:07:49.680
<v Speaker 3>the family members involved in the scenario.

146
00:07:50.079 --> 00:07:53.319
<v Speaker 1>But perhaps it's because they want to leave it as

147
00:07:53.319 --> 00:07:56.040
<v Speaker 1>a homicide because they aren't sure, and to have it

148
00:07:56.040 --> 00:07:58.800
<v Speaker 1>classified as undetermined would mean that there would be less

149
00:07:58.839 --> 00:08:01.920
<v Speaker 1>resources allocated to investigating, isn't that correct?

150
00:08:02.639 --> 00:08:05.600
<v Speaker 2>That's very true, I think so like it remains active.

151
00:08:05.639 --> 00:08:09.399
<v Speaker 2>They pretty much say we won't actively put any time

152
00:08:09.480 --> 00:08:12.399
<v Speaker 2>and resources towards investigating this, but if someone gives us

153
00:08:12.480 --> 00:08:14.839
<v Speaker 2>new tips or new leads, we can look into them,

154
00:08:14.879 --> 00:08:16.959
<v Speaker 2>but otherwise we're just kind of leading it off to

155
00:08:17.040 --> 00:08:20.560
<v Speaker 2>the side. If it's classified as undetermined, that's true, And.

156
00:08:20.519 --> 00:08:23.199
<v Speaker 3>If they change the classification, then you don't have any

157
00:08:23.240 --> 00:08:26.199
<v Speaker 3>of those resources allocated if someone came forward with information.

158
00:08:28.000 --> 00:08:31.800
<v Speaker 1>Well shortly after the Unsolved Mysteries episode came out, an

159
00:08:31.839 --> 00:08:34.759
<v Speaker 1>extensive post was made about this case on the Unresolved

160
00:08:34.840 --> 00:08:38.759
<v Speaker 1>Mystery subreddit by a poster with the greatest username ever,

161
00:08:39.159 --> 00:08:43.519
<v Speaker 1>slut for Bacon. The poster expressed their personal belief that

162
00:08:43.639 --> 00:08:46.879
<v Speaker 1>Jack's death was not a homicide and actually expressed a

163
00:08:46.919 --> 00:08:51.200
<v Speaker 1>really interesting theory about why this ruling was made. Jack's

164
00:08:51.200 --> 00:08:54.840
<v Speaker 1>autopsy was performed relatively quickly, but at the time the

165
00:08:54.879 --> 00:08:58.559
<v Speaker 1>medical examiner had no idea that Jack's body had been

166
00:08:58.600 --> 00:09:01.679
<v Speaker 1>loaded from a dempster in to a garbage truck, as

167
00:09:01.720 --> 00:09:03.919
<v Speaker 1>it took a couple of days for law enforcement to

168
00:09:03.919 --> 00:09:08.320
<v Speaker 1>piece together that scenario. Therefore, it was perfectly reasonable for

169
00:09:08.399 --> 00:09:12.240
<v Speaker 1>the medical examiner to initially assume the Jack's injuries were

170
00:09:12.240 --> 00:09:14.919
<v Speaker 1>a result of a beating and that an unknown third

171
00:09:14.919 --> 00:09:18.799
<v Speaker 1>party was responsible for killing him. Given that Jack had

172
00:09:18.799 --> 00:09:22.600
<v Speaker 1>been a prominent and influential person in Washington, his death

173
00:09:22.679 --> 00:09:25.399
<v Speaker 1>received a lot of instant media coverage, with much of

174
00:09:25.399 --> 00:09:28.840
<v Speaker 1>the reporting referring to it as a murder. This story

175
00:09:28.960 --> 00:09:31.399
<v Speaker 1>may be a case study on how the social status

176
00:09:31.399 --> 00:09:34.600
<v Speaker 1>of a victim determines how much attention their death receives

177
00:09:34.639 --> 00:09:38.080
<v Speaker 1>from law enforcement. If an unhoused person or a regular

178
00:09:38.120 --> 00:09:42.080
<v Speaker 1>citizen had been found under these circumstances, their deaths may

179
00:09:42.080 --> 00:09:44.639
<v Speaker 1>have been written off as an accident and we would

180
00:09:44.679 --> 00:09:47.879
<v Speaker 1>never even have heard about them. However, because of who

181
00:09:47.879 --> 00:09:50.559
<v Speaker 1>he was, Jack Wheeler was given the benefit of a

182
00:09:50.600 --> 00:09:54.600
<v Speaker 1>full fledged homicide investigation, and even though it doesn't sound

183
00:09:54.679 --> 00:09:57.039
<v Speaker 1>like it's turned up any evidence which pointed towards a

184
00:09:57.039 --> 00:10:00.480
<v Speaker 1>specific suspect, there may be a reluctance to a knowledge

185
00:10:00.519 --> 00:10:04.080
<v Speaker 1>that the original homicide ruling might have been wrong, which

186
00:10:04.120 --> 00:10:08.679
<v Speaker 1>is why Jack's death has never been reclassified as an accident. Indeed,

187
00:10:08.759 --> 00:10:11.759
<v Speaker 1>Jack's family have been openly critical about the lack of

188
00:10:11.799 --> 00:10:15.240
<v Speaker 1>communication that they've received from law enforcement, so you get

189
00:10:15.240 --> 00:10:18.000
<v Speaker 1>the impression that they are not too certain where the

190
00:10:18.039 --> 00:10:19.279
<v Speaker 1>investigation stands.

191
00:10:20.399 --> 00:10:22.720
<v Speaker 3>I think when you talk about this valuable victim and

192
00:10:22.759 --> 00:10:26.279
<v Speaker 3>the social status of a victim determining the attention received,

193
00:10:26.720 --> 00:10:30.200
<v Speaker 3>we've talked about that extensively before. But what's interesting here, though,

194
00:10:30.240 --> 00:10:33.240
<v Speaker 3>is when you couple that with mental health, you have

195
00:10:33.360 --> 00:10:36.799
<v Speaker 3>people who, because they've mastered it for so long and

196
00:10:36.840 --> 00:10:41.080
<v Speaker 3>so well, and because they have accomplished so much and

197
00:10:41.159 --> 00:10:45.720
<v Speaker 3>done so many great things, acknowledging the mental health angle

198
00:10:45.799 --> 00:10:47.960
<v Speaker 3>is difficult for a lot of people, right, Like, well,

199
00:10:47.960 --> 00:10:50.159
<v Speaker 3>he was really successful, so he couldn't have struggled that

200
00:10:50.240 --> 00:10:52.200
<v Speaker 3>bad Like, look at all the great things he did,

201
00:10:52.240 --> 00:10:55.759
<v Speaker 3>He couldn't have struggled that badly to result in his death.

202
00:10:56.559 --> 00:10:58.120
<v Speaker 3>I remember, I mean, this is not even on the

203
00:10:58.120 --> 00:11:02.320
<v Speaker 3>same level, but I'm trying to help for ADHD or OCD.

204
00:11:02.519 --> 00:11:05.320
<v Speaker 3>And the doctor really dismissed me, and he said, look

205
00:11:05.320 --> 00:11:07.559
<v Speaker 3>at all the things you've accomplished, Ashley, like that doesn't

206
00:11:07.600 --> 00:11:11.279
<v Speaker 3>happen for someone who is ADHD or whatever. And I went,

207
00:11:11.639 --> 00:11:14.080
<v Speaker 3>can you please look at my results? Like they're off

208
00:11:14.120 --> 00:11:18.000
<v Speaker 3>the charts. I'm definitely ADHD and I have some OCD tendencies.

209
00:11:18.320 --> 00:11:21.120
<v Speaker 3>I had to change doctors to get someone to sit

210
00:11:21.159 --> 00:11:24.039
<v Speaker 3>down with me for test results looking through things, and

211
00:11:24.080 --> 00:11:27.519
<v Speaker 3>I went, my last doctor wouldn't even validate anything because

212
00:11:27.519 --> 00:11:30.120
<v Speaker 3>of the success I had had in my personal and

213
00:11:30.159 --> 00:11:33.039
<v Speaker 3>professional life. And I went, that's insane. That's not how

214
00:11:33.080 --> 00:11:34.000
<v Speaker 3>mental health works.

215
00:11:34.200 --> 00:11:34.440
<v Speaker 2>Right.

216
00:11:35.080 --> 00:11:37.559
<v Speaker 3>Just because you do a good job either getting help

217
00:11:37.600 --> 00:11:41.120
<v Speaker 3>for it, masking it, or coping with it, doesn't mean

218
00:11:41.159 --> 00:11:43.519
<v Speaker 3>you don't struggle just as mightily as somebody else. So

219
00:11:44.159 --> 00:11:47.240
<v Speaker 3>I think when you present there's this man who's discovered,

220
00:11:47.240 --> 00:11:52.679
<v Speaker 3>who's this significant influence in Washington, d C. And it's

221
00:11:52.879 --> 00:11:56.360
<v Speaker 3>murder or mental health question mark, people go, no way,

222
00:11:56.440 --> 00:11:59.559
<v Speaker 3>not someone like Jack. Jack had it all together, and

223
00:11:59.639 --> 00:12:02.360
<v Speaker 3>yet they don't see what Catherine sees, which is behind

224
00:12:02.399 --> 00:12:05.639
<v Speaker 3>the scenes, he's fighting demons on a daily basis. So

225
00:12:05.679 --> 00:12:09.639
<v Speaker 3>I think that plays into the scenario as well. When

226
00:12:09.679 --> 00:12:12.360
<v Speaker 3>you start putting forward the mental health argument, it's well,

227
00:12:12.360 --> 00:12:14.879
<v Speaker 3>what kind of victim is it? Like, let's talk about them.

228
00:12:14.879 --> 00:12:18.960
<v Speaker 3>Because someone's super successful, it's much harder for society to

229
00:12:19.200 --> 00:12:22.240
<v Speaker 3>see and understand their mental health diagnosis.

230
00:12:22.919 --> 00:12:25.320
<v Speaker 1>Let me first say, I'm sorry that was your experience.

231
00:12:25.879 --> 00:12:26.720
<v Speaker 2>It was so bad.

232
00:12:27.320 --> 00:12:30.879
<v Speaker 1>That is wild that the idea that a mental health

233
00:12:30.919 --> 00:12:36.320
<v Speaker 1>diagnosis would be predicated upon somebody's relative lack of success, like, oh,

234
00:12:36.320 --> 00:12:38.120
<v Speaker 1>we're not going to diagnose you with that. It's like,

235
00:12:38.159 --> 00:12:42.679
<v Speaker 1>are you actually aware of any mental health issues and

236
00:12:42.720 --> 00:12:46.840
<v Speaker 1>how they occur in all populations? People of all different

237
00:12:46.879 --> 00:12:50.200
<v Speaker 1>professions have mental health issues. Just because somebody is a

238
00:12:50.240 --> 00:12:54.600
<v Speaker 1>success doesn't mean that they haven't been struggling. So the

239
00:12:54.639 --> 00:12:58.519
<v Speaker 1>fact that he or is it a he yes, that

240
00:12:58.639 --> 00:13:02.480
<v Speaker 1>he didn't listen to you and didn't go okay, Well,

241
00:13:02.519 --> 00:13:05.600
<v Speaker 1>her feelings are valid and these are her experiences. I'm

242
00:13:05.639 --> 00:13:08.799
<v Speaker 1>not going to take her successes in life as this.

243
00:13:09.039 --> 00:13:11.960
<v Speaker 1>Oh well, she can't actually be having these experiences because

244
00:13:12.000 --> 00:13:15.399
<v Speaker 1>she's achieved A, B and C. But it seems like

245
00:13:15.679 --> 00:13:18.879
<v Speaker 1>that's what's happening with Jack as well. A little bit here.

246
00:13:19.480 --> 00:13:21.600
<v Speaker 3>I really feel like that. I really feel like some

247
00:13:21.759 --> 00:13:24.679
<v Speaker 3>it's hard for people to step back and say, how

248
00:13:24.720 --> 00:13:27.879
<v Speaker 3>could someone that successful struggle so mightily because we didn't

249
00:13:27.960 --> 00:13:31.519
<v Speaker 3>see it, And you think about the fight Jack had

250
00:13:31.519 --> 00:13:34.399
<v Speaker 3>to do. Catherine described it, the fight he had to

251
00:13:34.399 --> 00:13:36.919
<v Speaker 3>put in daily, so no one did see it except

252
00:13:36.960 --> 00:13:39.720
<v Speaker 3>those he was closest with and he could trust because

253
00:13:39.720 --> 00:13:42.519
<v Speaker 3>he didn't want people to hurt like he hurt. He

254
00:13:42.559 --> 00:13:45.080
<v Speaker 3>didn't want people to struggle, and so his whole life

255
00:13:45.480 --> 00:13:48.480
<v Speaker 3>had been devoted to preventing that struggle in other people

256
00:13:48.600 --> 00:13:51.759
<v Speaker 3>and masking it in himself. And so here, when you

257
00:13:51.879 --> 00:13:56.600
<v Speaker 3>think about that, him possibly cracking and having that mental

258
00:13:56.600 --> 00:14:00.000
<v Speaker 3>health decline so rapidly makes a lot of sense.

259
00:14:00.919 --> 00:14:02.960
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I don't know how open Jack was about his

260
00:14:03.000 --> 00:14:05.840
<v Speaker 2>struggles with depression and bipolar disorder. Like I know that

261
00:14:06.200 --> 00:14:08.320
<v Speaker 2>his family was well aware of it, but I don't

262
00:14:08.360 --> 00:14:10.480
<v Speaker 2>know if he discussed much with a lot of people

263
00:14:10.639 --> 00:14:13.519
<v Speaker 2>in his inner circle in Washington because he was such

264
00:14:13.519 --> 00:14:17.000
<v Speaker 2>a prominent and successful figure, and to his family's credit,

265
00:14:17.039 --> 00:14:19.120
<v Speaker 2>they have always been very open about it because they

266
00:14:19.120 --> 00:14:21.679
<v Speaker 2>think there's no sense like concealing this to try to

267
00:14:21.679 --> 00:14:24.840
<v Speaker 2>preserve his reputation because it might shed some light on

268
00:14:24.960 --> 00:14:27.600
<v Speaker 2>why he died, and of course it helps a lot

269
00:14:27.600 --> 00:14:30.080
<v Speaker 2>of other people if we're openly admitting that this very

270
00:14:30.120 --> 00:14:34.000
<v Speaker 2>successful man also had daily struggles with mental health issues.

271
00:14:34.960 --> 00:14:37.440
<v Speaker 2>This is actually not the first tragedy that Jack's wife,

272
00:14:37.559 --> 00:14:40.799
<v Speaker 2>Catherine Kleist has ever had to experience, because in February

273
00:14:40.840 --> 00:14:44.039
<v Speaker 2>of nineteen ninety five, her sister, Emily Kleis Fischer, was

274
00:14:44.159 --> 00:14:47.360
<v Speaker 2>murdered after she was stabbed over fifty times inside her

275
00:14:47.360 --> 00:14:51.039
<v Speaker 2>home in Memphis, Tennessee. The case remained unsawd for eight

276
00:14:51.120 --> 00:14:54.519
<v Speaker 2>years until two suspects were finally arrested for Emily's murder,

277
00:14:54.799 --> 00:14:57.200
<v Speaker 2>and it turned out she was killed because her son

278
00:14:57.240 --> 00:15:00.600
<v Speaker 2>owed his dealer a twenty dollars drug debt. This about

279
00:15:00.600 --> 00:15:03.559
<v Speaker 2>a senseless of violent crime, as you can get and

280
00:15:03.679 --> 00:15:06.519
<v Speaker 2>believe it or not. In May of twenty eleven, there

281
00:15:06.519 --> 00:15:09.559
<v Speaker 2>would be additional drama in Catherine's life when her brother,

282
00:15:09.679 --> 00:15:12.960
<v Speaker 2>Henry Klais decided to file a lawsuit in federal court

283
00:15:12.960 --> 00:15:16.759
<v Speaker 2>against Catherine and their sister Ellen. Henry accused them of

284
00:15:16.840 --> 00:15:19.519
<v Speaker 2>cyber terror by alleging that they hacked into the email

285
00:15:19.559 --> 00:15:22.399
<v Speaker 2>accounts of himself and his wife and did whatever they

286
00:15:22.399 --> 00:15:25.639
<v Speaker 2>could to disrupt their lives, even though Jack had been

287
00:15:25.639 --> 00:15:27.960
<v Speaker 2>dead for five months at this point. He was also

288
00:15:28.080 --> 00:15:31.240
<v Speaker 2>named as a defendant in his lawsuit because Henry claimed

289
00:15:31.240 --> 00:15:33.840
<v Speaker 2>that Jack used the knowledge of cyber warfare he had

290
00:15:33.840 --> 00:15:36.799
<v Speaker 2>gained from working for the government and the Metra Corporation

291
00:15:37.200 --> 00:15:40.840
<v Speaker 2>to assist Katherine and Ellen with their harassment. The lawsuit

292
00:15:40.840 --> 00:15:43.399
<v Speaker 2>would be settled about six months later, but even though

293
00:15:43.480 --> 00:15:46.320
<v Speaker 2>Jack was doing work with cybersecurity at the time he died,

294
00:15:46.799 --> 00:15:49.360
<v Speaker 2>I think that whole angle, as well as Jack's previous

295
00:15:49.440 --> 00:15:52.279
<v Speaker 2>years of service with the government, is nothing but smoke

296
00:15:52.320 --> 00:15:52.759
<v Speaker 2>and merrores.

297
00:15:53.679 --> 00:15:57.600
<v Speaker 3>I'm so confused by Henry when you look at this

298
00:15:57.720 --> 00:16:03.039
<v Speaker 3>lawsuit filed against the family was settled. Did they agree

299
00:16:03.120 --> 00:16:05.320
<v Speaker 3>to terms that benefited Henry.

300
00:16:06.320 --> 00:16:08.759
<v Speaker 2>I have no idea, because usually when they settle lawsuits,

301
00:16:08.799 --> 00:16:11.919
<v Speaker 2>they're required to keep details private from the public. But

302
00:16:12.159 --> 00:16:14.039
<v Speaker 2>when you see his actions, you do hope that he

303
00:16:14.080 --> 00:16:16.799
<v Speaker 2>did get anything, but considering that he's doing this to

304
00:16:16.879 --> 00:16:20.000
<v Speaker 2>his sister who has suffered a major tragedy only a

305
00:16:20.039 --> 00:16:24.080
<v Speaker 2>couple months earlier. But unfortunately I just don't know the details.

306
00:16:24.559 --> 00:16:28.159
<v Speaker 3>Oh, it's super bizarre. Yeah, there seems to be no

307
00:16:28.279 --> 00:16:32.360
<v Speaker 3>consideration for anybody who knows what's happening to Henry and

308
00:16:32.399 --> 00:16:35.120
<v Speaker 3>his wife, but seems very fishy that then you need

309
00:16:35.159 --> 00:16:39.120
<v Speaker 3>to go after your sisters like how just very very

310
00:16:39.120 --> 00:16:45.000
<v Speaker 3>bizarre implication and the tragedy of Emily's murder right and

311
00:16:45.120 --> 00:16:47.879
<v Speaker 3>realizing that this is over a twenty dollars drug debt.

312
00:16:48.279 --> 00:16:53.200
<v Speaker 3>Catherine really has experienced significant trauma in her life, both

313
00:16:53.240 --> 00:16:56.960
<v Speaker 3>before and after Jack's death has as well, So not

314
00:16:57.000 --> 00:16:59.720
<v Speaker 3>only is she a widow, but she has also lost

315
00:16:59.799 --> 00:17:05.200
<v Speaker 3>her sister. She's also lost her brother in many ways

316
00:17:05.279 --> 00:17:08.920
<v Speaker 3>because he's physically here, but he's attacking them while supposedly

317
00:17:08.920 --> 00:17:12.960
<v Speaker 3>they're attacking he and his wife. So it's just tragic.

318
00:17:13.119 --> 00:17:15.960
<v Speaker 3>It's like Catherine didn't ever get a break from either

319
00:17:16.279 --> 00:17:22.240
<v Speaker 3>supporting her husband, trying to help her family, being chased

320
00:17:22.240 --> 00:17:24.559
<v Speaker 3>after by her brother. I mean, I just feel so

321
00:17:24.640 --> 00:17:26.880
<v Speaker 3>bad for her. In the midst of this, she still

322
00:17:26.880 --> 00:17:29.279
<v Speaker 3>has all those question marks of saying, what actually happened

323
00:17:29.599 --> 00:17:32.279
<v Speaker 3>to Jack? What actually happened to the man that I

324
00:17:32.359 --> 00:17:35.400
<v Speaker 3>love and supported and built a life with. There's so

325
00:17:35.519 --> 00:17:39.799
<v Speaker 3>many scenarios and she's left really just trying to juggle

326
00:17:39.839 --> 00:17:41.960
<v Speaker 3>all of the mess that keeps falling in her lap.

327
00:17:42.000 --> 00:17:42.880
<v Speaker 3>It's quite tragic.

328
00:17:44.359 --> 00:17:47.000
<v Speaker 1>If Jack was the victim of foul play, it most

329
00:17:47.079 --> 00:17:50.319
<v Speaker 1>likely came at the hands of a random stranger, as

330
00:17:50.359 --> 00:17:53.680
<v Speaker 1>I think the shadowy government conspiracy theories surrounding his death

331
00:17:53.720 --> 00:17:57.920
<v Speaker 1>are pretty ridiculous. I know Jack's family has pushed forward

332
00:17:57.960 --> 00:18:01.480
<v Speaker 1>the possibility that he was the victim of a professional hit. Well,

333
00:18:01.519 --> 00:18:03.960
<v Speaker 1>the problem is that we have a digital trail tracking

334
00:18:04.000 --> 00:18:06.319
<v Speaker 1>a lot of Jack's movements during the last three days

335
00:18:06.319 --> 00:18:09.880
<v Speaker 1>of his life. He spent this time period traveling around

336
00:18:09.920 --> 00:18:13.839
<v Speaker 1>to a number of different locations for inexplicable reasons. Even

337
00:18:13.880 --> 00:18:18.440
<v Speaker 1>though there's ample surveillance footage of Jack from various security cameras,

338
00:18:18.640 --> 00:18:20.960
<v Speaker 1>had no point does it appear that he's being followed

339
00:18:21.000 --> 00:18:24.759
<v Speaker 1>by anyone. It's likely that Jack's death took place in Newark,

340
00:18:25.160 --> 00:18:27.519
<v Speaker 1>a town that he didn't have any known ties to

341
00:18:27.799 --> 00:18:30.680
<v Speaker 1>or any reason to visit, so how could the killer

342
00:18:30.720 --> 00:18:32.359
<v Speaker 1>have known that he would be there in the middle

343
00:18:32.400 --> 00:18:36.000
<v Speaker 1>of the night. Furthermore, Jack did not have any gunshot

344
00:18:36.119 --> 00:18:38.680
<v Speaker 1>or stab wounds on him, so the only way it

345
00:18:38.680 --> 00:18:40.960
<v Speaker 1>could have been murdered is if someone beat him to death,

346
00:18:41.240 --> 00:18:43.319
<v Speaker 1>which does not seem to be the preferred method. Of

347
00:18:43.359 --> 00:18:47.799
<v Speaker 1>execution for a professional assassin. However, if Jack's injuries were

348
00:18:47.880 --> 00:18:50.680
<v Speaker 1>consistent with foul play, could it be possible that he

349
00:18:50.720 --> 00:18:53.759
<v Speaker 1>had a random encounter with someone who administered a fatal beating.

350
00:18:55.119 --> 00:18:57.920
<v Speaker 3>Absolutely, and as what we were talking about earlier, I

351
00:18:57.960 --> 00:19:02.000
<v Speaker 3>think he could have run into stranger and the encounter

352
00:19:02.039 --> 00:19:05.319
<v Speaker 3>went one of two ways. He scared the stranger, it

353
00:19:05.440 --> 00:19:08.880
<v Speaker 3>made him fearful of his own for his own safety,

354
00:19:08.920 --> 00:19:11.759
<v Speaker 3>and therefore he attacks Jack and hits him in a

355
00:19:11.759 --> 00:19:13.519
<v Speaker 3>way that kills him, and he pulls his body over

356
00:19:13.559 --> 00:19:18.599
<v Speaker 3>to the dumpster, or he sees Jack. Jack is completely

357
00:19:18.960 --> 00:19:21.839
<v Speaker 3>out of his own sense of reality, right, and is

358
00:19:22.079 --> 00:19:25.440
<v Speaker 3>very vulnerable, and this person says, this is somebody I

359
00:19:25.440 --> 00:19:28.599
<v Speaker 3>can attack, right, a crime of opportunity. But either way

360
00:19:29.680 --> 00:19:33.240
<v Speaker 3>we still there's no way to prove are those injuries

361
00:19:33.279 --> 00:19:36.359
<v Speaker 3>from a beating or are they from that transportation to

362
00:19:36.400 --> 00:19:40.880
<v Speaker 3>the landfill. Both could be possible. Some injuries could be

363
00:19:40.920 --> 00:19:44.799
<v Speaker 3>from an assault, either because Jack seemed threatening and or

364
00:19:44.920 --> 00:19:47.839
<v Speaker 3>was vulnerable, and then he was placed in the dumpster

365
00:19:47.960 --> 00:19:51.839
<v Speaker 3>and then secured more injuries, right, succumbed to more injuries,

366
00:19:52.839 --> 00:19:54.839
<v Speaker 3>or it's possible Jack just climbed in there and got

367
00:19:54.920 --> 00:19:58.759
<v Speaker 3>hurt in the bin itself. So, oh, this one's just

368
00:19:58.960 --> 00:20:01.319
<v Speaker 3>really frustrating. But yeah, I think it could not have

369
00:20:01.359 --> 00:20:03.400
<v Speaker 3>been an assassin. An assassin's not going to do hand

370
00:20:03.440 --> 00:20:06.319
<v Speaker 3>to hand combat with Jack. It's going to be someone

371
00:20:06.359 --> 00:20:09.359
<v Speaker 3>who shoots him or attacks him in a way that

372
00:20:09.519 --> 00:20:12.480
<v Speaker 3>removes them from the physical presence of the victim, right

373
00:20:12.559 --> 00:20:16.880
<v Speaker 3>so they can get away with it. But a stranger, Absolutely,

374
00:20:16.920 --> 00:20:18.799
<v Speaker 3>I think it's a very strong possibility.

375
00:20:20.480 --> 00:20:22.640
<v Speaker 2>Well, let's go back and start at the very beginning.

376
00:20:23.119 --> 00:20:25.119
<v Speaker 2>We know that Jack left New York on December the

377
00:20:25.160 --> 00:20:28.319
<v Speaker 2>twenty eighth to travel to Washington for work reasons, a

378
00:20:28.359 --> 00:20:31.039
<v Speaker 2>decision which did not please his wife, since Catherine thought

379
00:20:31.119 --> 00:20:33.680
<v Speaker 2>Jack would be off from Christmas until New Year's and

380
00:20:33.759 --> 00:20:35.640
<v Speaker 2>she said they were planning to spend a few days

381
00:20:35.680 --> 00:20:39.480
<v Speaker 2>seeing movies together. However, from what Catherine has said about Jack,

382
00:20:39.559 --> 00:20:41.200
<v Speaker 2>I get the impression that he was a bit of

383
00:20:41.240 --> 00:20:43.759
<v Speaker 2>a workaholic who had a constant need to feel like

384
00:20:43.799 --> 00:20:46.400
<v Speaker 2>he was contributing something to the world, and was not

385
00:20:46.480 --> 00:20:48.279
<v Speaker 2>the type of person who could just chill out and

386
00:20:48.359 --> 00:20:51.319
<v Speaker 2>relax and spend a couple of days watching movies. Out

387
00:20:51.359 --> 00:20:53.920
<v Speaker 2>of all the victims we featured on this podcast, I'd

388
00:20:53.960 --> 00:20:56.279
<v Speaker 2>say that Jack Wheeler led one of the most interesting

389
00:20:56.359 --> 00:20:59.680
<v Speaker 2>lives and had a number of impressive achievements. He was

390
00:20:59.720 --> 00:21:02.160
<v Speaker 2>probably best known for his role at helping create the

391
00:21:02.279 --> 00:21:06.200
<v Speaker 2>Vietnam Veterans Memorial, and in fact, he was actually portrayed

392
00:21:06.200 --> 00:21:09.240
<v Speaker 2>by actor Marshall Colt and the nineteen eighty eight made

393
00:21:09.279 --> 00:21:11.759
<v Speaker 2>for TV movie about this story, To Heal a Nation,

394
00:21:12.200 --> 00:21:14.920
<v Speaker 2>which starred Eric Roberts as the founder of the memorial,

395
00:21:15.039 --> 00:21:18.839
<v Speaker 2>Jan Scruggs. In fact, when Ronald Reagan visited the memorial

396
00:21:18.920 --> 00:21:21.759
<v Speaker 2>later that same year on Veterans Day, it was Jack

397
00:21:21.799 --> 00:21:25.720
<v Speaker 2>who introduced him. It sounds like things appeared relatively normal

398
00:21:25.759 --> 00:21:27.759
<v Speaker 2>with Jack when he left New York, but at some

399
00:21:27.839 --> 00:21:30.920
<v Speaker 2>point during the day he decided to leave Washington and

400
00:21:30.960 --> 00:21:33.640
<v Speaker 2>travel to his home in Newcastle, and that's where his

401
00:21:33.640 --> 00:21:37.160
<v Speaker 2>odd behavior began. Like we mentioned earlier, it's never been

402
00:21:37.240 --> 00:21:40.000
<v Speaker 2>established when was the last time Jack took his medication

403
00:21:40.160 --> 00:21:43.440
<v Speaker 2>for bipolar disorder, but if he had suddenly stopped taking it,

404
00:21:43.680 --> 00:21:46.400
<v Speaker 2>this would go a long way towards explaining his actions.

405
00:21:47.279 --> 00:21:49.359
<v Speaker 2>Even though his neighbor didn't get a good enough look

406
00:21:49.359 --> 00:21:52.680
<v Speaker 2>to positively identify him, I think it seems pretty obvious

407
00:21:52.720 --> 00:21:55.319
<v Speaker 2>that Jack was the shadowy figure who tossed the smoke

408
00:21:55.359 --> 00:21:58.240
<v Speaker 2>bombs at the house, which was under construction across the

409
00:21:58.279 --> 00:22:01.680
<v Speaker 2>street from his residence. Particularly since his cell phone was

410
00:22:01.799 --> 00:22:05.000
<v Speaker 2>left behind at the scene, it sounds like preventing the

411
00:22:05.039 --> 00:22:08.079
<v Speaker 2>construction of the house on that property was one subject

412
00:22:08.119 --> 00:22:11.200
<v Speaker 2>that Jack was particularly obsessive about, so if he was

413
00:22:11.200 --> 00:22:14.119
<v Speaker 2>off his medication and was going through a manic episode,

414
00:22:14.319 --> 00:22:17.000
<v Speaker 2>this may have led to an impulsive decision to abandon

415
00:22:17.000 --> 00:22:19.799
<v Speaker 2>whatever he was doing in Washington and go to Newcastle

416
00:22:20.160 --> 00:22:24.079
<v Speaker 2>for the express purpose of destroying this home. After all,

417
00:22:24.240 --> 00:22:26.759
<v Speaker 2>it had only been about two weeks since Jack's request

418
00:22:26.839 --> 00:22:30.039
<v Speaker 2>for a temporary restraining order against the construction was denied

419
00:22:30.079 --> 00:22:32.240
<v Speaker 2>by the court, so he may have figured that burning

420
00:22:32.279 --> 00:22:35.240
<v Speaker 2>the whole structure down was his only option, even though

421
00:22:35.240 --> 00:22:37.200
<v Speaker 2>these smoke bombs didn't do much damage.

422
00:22:38.359 --> 00:22:41.319
<v Speaker 3>Remember that his neighbor, I think it was Robert Dill,

423
00:22:41.880 --> 00:22:43.839
<v Speaker 3>said that there were so many times he had to

424
00:22:43.880 --> 00:22:48.160
<v Speaker 3>talk Jack down from just going off about this construction

425
00:22:48.240 --> 00:22:50.680
<v Speaker 3>that he didn't want to happen across the street, and

426
00:22:50.920 --> 00:22:53.720
<v Speaker 3>that you could really tell that even Dill himself was like,

427
00:22:53.799 --> 00:22:56.480
<v Speaker 3>I don't want to deal with this. This is ridiculous.

428
00:22:56.480 --> 00:22:58.880
<v Speaker 3>It's kind of out of hand. And so when you

429
00:22:58.920 --> 00:23:01.759
<v Speaker 3>think about the obst sessive nature, if someone was off

430
00:23:01.759 --> 00:23:05.519
<v Speaker 3>their medication and they're ruminating about something and they're creating

431
00:23:05.559 --> 00:23:07.880
<v Speaker 3>this situation that's much bigger in their head than it

432
00:23:07.960 --> 00:23:10.880
<v Speaker 3>is in reality. It's already been an obsession of his

433
00:23:11.000 --> 00:23:13.519
<v Speaker 3>when he was healthy, but now add that he could

434
00:23:13.559 --> 00:23:16.359
<v Speaker 3>be struggling from a mental health episode, he might not

435
00:23:16.400 --> 00:23:18.720
<v Speaker 3>be on his medication, and he decides, I'm going to

436
00:23:18.759 --> 00:23:21.599
<v Speaker 3>make sure that I stop the construction of this home.

437
00:23:22.039 --> 00:23:25.640
<v Speaker 3>And he gets smoke bombs, which even that indicates does

438
00:23:25.680 --> 00:23:28.519
<v Speaker 3>he really understand like the amount of damage that would do.

439
00:23:29.119 --> 00:23:31.279
<v Speaker 3>He didn't try to burn it down, gasoline and matches,

440
00:23:31.319 --> 00:23:33.480
<v Speaker 3>he didn't do any of that. It's the smoke bombs.

441
00:23:33.799 --> 00:23:39.039
<v Speaker 3>But clearly if it was Jack, his phone's there. If

442
00:23:39.039 --> 00:23:44.359
<v Speaker 3>it was Jack, then he's trying to end this construction.

443
00:23:44.519 --> 00:23:46.799
<v Speaker 3>It's that important to him. He's going to really go

444
00:23:46.880 --> 00:23:49.119
<v Speaker 3>to great lengths in his head to end the construction.

445
00:23:50.119 --> 00:23:54.799
<v Speaker 3>You can tell if that was Jack, something's not okay,

446
00:23:54.839 --> 00:23:58.480
<v Speaker 3>that he just has completely lost touch with reality. And

447
00:23:58.799 --> 00:24:02.200
<v Speaker 3>it's very probable that it was the shadowy figure. It

448
00:24:02.279 --> 00:24:05.279
<v Speaker 3>was Jack who's lingering outside that home.

449
00:24:05.680 --> 00:24:07.559
<v Speaker 2>And you make him wonder like when did this happen?

450
00:24:07.680 --> 00:24:10.000
<v Speaker 2>Because he was going from New York to Washington to

451
00:24:10.039 --> 00:24:11.799
<v Speaker 2>work for a few days, but then just gets this

452
00:24:11.920 --> 00:24:15.279
<v Speaker 2>sun compulsion that I'm gonna drive back to Delaware and

453
00:24:15.480 --> 00:24:19.160
<v Speaker 2>I'm going to like obsessively burn this place down, even

454
00:24:19.200 --> 00:24:22.039
<v Speaker 2>though I have not been thinking about it for the

455
00:24:22.119 --> 00:24:24.279
<v Speaker 2>last few weeks. So it makes you wonder, do you

456
00:24:24.400 --> 00:24:26.240
<v Speaker 2>just get off his meds at that point, like what

457
00:24:26.480 --> 00:24:28.920
<v Speaker 2>made this come into his mind that he felt compelled

458
00:24:28.960 --> 00:24:29.759
<v Speaker 2>to do this now?

459
00:24:30.480 --> 00:24:32.400
<v Speaker 3>And then you see he doesn't ever get back to

460
00:24:32.480 --> 00:24:35.759
<v Speaker 3>a healthy spot like he's doing that. He reports that

461
00:24:35.799 --> 00:24:37.599
<v Speaker 3>he's been robbed and all of his things are missing,

462
00:24:37.640 --> 00:24:39.519
<v Speaker 3>but his phone ends up at that house later down

463
00:24:39.559 --> 00:24:42.519
<v Speaker 3>the road. All of this stuff starts to just kind

464
00:24:42.519 --> 00:24:46.000
<v Speaker 3>of cascade to where he's seen looking homeless, dishoveled, limping

465
00:24:46.079 --> 00:24:50.039
<v Speaker 3>around like he's been crying, like he doesn't know where

466
00:24:50.079 --> 00:24:53.599
<v Speaker 3>he's at. People are aware enough to stop him multiple

467
00:24:53.640 --> 00:24:54.720
<v Speaker 3>times and say can we.

468
00:24:54.759 --> 00:24:56.559
<v Speaker 2>Help, Do you need any help? Sir?

469
00:24:56.599 --> 00:24:59.440
<v Speaker 3>Are you okay? And every time he says he's fine

470
00:24:59.480 --> 00:25:01.920
<v Speaker 3>and deny a need for help. But when you put

471
00:25:01.920 --> 00:25:05.599
<v Speaker 3>it all together, you're seeing this de escalator, like he's

472
00:25:05.680 --> 00:25:10.119
<v Speaker 3>just cascading into this kind of tragic existence of himself,

473
00:25:10.680 --> 00:25:13.400
<v Speaker 3>and the only explanation really is that mental health condition.

474
00:25:13.799 --> 00:25:16.119
<v Speaker 1>It makes you think of like chaos theory or the

475
00:25:16.119 --> 00:25:20.359
<v Speaker 1>butterfly effect. If he would have taken that help from somebody,

476
00:25:20.519 --> 00:25:24.720
<v Speaker 1>how could this situation have played out differently. It's just

477
00:25:24.799 --> 00:25:28.400
<v Speaker 1>so sad that in that state, he either didn't feel

478
00:25:28.440 --> 00:25:31.559
<v Speaker 1>safe accepting help from somebody he didn't know, or didn't

479
00:25:31.599 --> 00:25:33.960
<v Speaker 1>feel as though he needed it, but he did seem

480
00:25:34.000 --> 00:25:36.319
<v Speaker 1>lucid enough to feel like he was. I think he

481
00:25:36.359 --> 00:25:39.680
<v Speaker 1>said he was dazed in boxed in to family, so

482
00:25:40.119 --> 00:25:42.279
<v Speaker 1>he knew that he was struggling, and things seemed to

483
00:25:42.279 --> 00:25:44.640
<v Speaker 1>be not clear. It seemed to be that everything was

484
00:25:44.759 --> 00:25:48.559
<v Speaker 1>very opaque. So I just I really really feel for

485
00:25:48.640 --> 00:25:51.720
<v Speaker 1>him in this moment. It must have just been so

486
00:25:52.079 --> 00:25:55.880
<v Speaker 1>terrifying going through the world and not understanding what is

487
00:25:55.960 --> 00:26:00.839
<v Speaker 1>really and truly going on. It also seems that Jack

488
00:26:00.960 --> 00:26:04.440
<v Speaker 1>was responsible for vandalizing his own residence and will have

489
00:26:04.559 --> 00:26:08.400
<v Speaker 1>never heard any indication that it was positively identified. I'm

490
00:26:08.440 --> 00:26:11.720
<v Speaker 1>sure the bare footprint found in the kitchen clensor likely

491
00:26:11.759 --> 00:26:14.880
<v Speaker 1>belonged to Jack, and I think it's interesting that Jack's

492
00:26:14.880 --> 00:26:17.920
<v Speaker 1>ceremonial West Point Cadet sword and shield were lying on

493
00:26:17.960 --> 00:26:20.440
<v Speaker 1>the floor, and the book about his West Point class

494
00:26:20.440 --> 00:26:23.160
<v Speaker 1>from nineteen sixty six was lying open on the counter,

495
00:26:23.920 --> 00:26:25.640
<v Speaker 1>As you get the impression that he was taking a

496
00:26:25.640 --> 00:26:29.000
<v Speaker 1>few moments to reminisce about his past. Now, in some

497
00:26:29.079 --> 00:26:31.920
<v Speaker 1>sources about the case, you'll read that one of Jack's

498
00:26:31.960 --> 00:26:34.759
<v Speaker 1>neighbors reported hearing what sounded like a loud noise of

499
00:26:34.759 --> 00:26:38.200
<v Speaker 1>the television inside the Wheeler residence in the days prior

500
00:26:38.240 --> 00:26:42.359
<v Speaker 1>to Jack's death, even though no one appeared to be home. However,

501
00:26:42.480 --> 00:26:45.519
<v Speaker 1>according to his neighbor Robert Dill, Jack liked to leave

502
00:26:45.559 --> 00:26:48.200
<v Speaker 1>the radio on whenever he was absent from the residence

503
00:26:48.680 --> 00:26:51.000
<v Speaker 1>in order to give off the false impression that someone

504
00:26:51.079 --> 00:26:55.079
<v Speaker 1>was home and possibly discouraged potential burglaries from taking place.

505
00:26:55.920 --> 00:26:58.960
<v Speaker 1>While Dill checked the residence on December thirtieth, he said

506
00:26:59.000 --> 00:27:01.680
<v Speaker 1>the radio was no longer play. So I'm guessing that

507
00:27:01.759 --> 00:27:04.839
<v Speaker 1>the noise this other neighbor reported hearing was a radio

508
00:27:04.960 --> 00:27:07.599
<v Speaker 1>and not a television, and Jack switched it off at

509
00:27:07.640 --> 00:27:09.640
<v Speaker 1>some point when he went inside on the twenty eight.

510
00:27:11.200 --> 00:27:13.720
<v Speaker 3>This is this is so sad. I do think when

511
00:27:13.759 --> 00:27:16.039
<v Speaker 3>you look at the at the scene that's left, especially

512
00:27:16.039 --> 00:27:19.960
<v Speaker 3>that ceremonial West Point sword and the book from nineteen

513
00:27:20.039 --> 00:27:22.640
<v Speaker 3>sixty six, it's open on the counter. It's almost like

514
00:27:22.720 --> 00:27:25.680
<v Speaker 3>he's just sitting there kind of reliving these moments. And

515
00:27:25.839 --> 00:27:29.279
<v Speaker 3>remember earlier on you guys said west Point and the

516
00:27:29.480 --> 00:27:32.920
<v Speaker 3>service to his country along with his fellow West Point

517
00:27:33.240 --> 00:27:37.200
<v Speaker 3>classmates was one of those things that weighed really heavily

518
00:27:37.279 --> 00:27:40.720
<v Speaker 3>on him, and that most likely was one of those

519
00:27:41.000 --> 00:27:46.039
<v Speaker 3>life changing chapters that really impacted his long term mental health.

520
00:27:46.119 --> 00:27:48.599
<v Speaker 3>Right he's serving at this prestigious school where there's a

521
00:27:48.640 --> 00:27:51.680
<v Speaker 3>lot of pressure, there's a lot of expectation to perform.

522
00:27:51.920 --> 00:27:54.640
<v Speaker 3>He's going off to serve in Vietnam, and while he's

523
00:27:54.680 --> 00:27:57.920
<v Speaker 3>in a non combative position, his friends from West Point

524
00:27:57.960 --> 00:28:00.279
<v Speaker 3>are not and many of them pass away in Vietnam.

525
00:28:00.680 --> 00:28:03.319
<v Speaker 3>And so the fact that he's looking back, it makes

526
00:28:03.319 --> 00:28:05.640
<v Speaker 3>you wonder like, was it one of his close friends

527
00:28:05.640 --> 00:28:08.440
<v Speaker 3>that had died in Vietnam and the trauma of that

528
00:28:08.559 --> 00:28:12.240
<v Speaker 3>and he's not medicated. Could some of those PTSD moments,

529
00:28:12.240 --> 00:28:16.319
<v Speaker 3>some of the memories and triggers, could that have caused

530
00:28:16.440 --> 00:28:19.359
<v Speaker 3>a really rapid decline where he doesn't have access to

531
00:28:19.400 --> 00:28:22.119
<v Speaker 3>the medication that could have subsided some of those symptoms,

532
00:28:22.559 --> 00:28:26.000
<v Speaker 3>And because he's reminiscing about that West Point chapter, it

533
00:28:26.119 --> 00:28:28.559
<v Speaker 3>starts to go down this rabbit hole of loss and

534
00:28:28.640 --> 00:28:32.880
<v Speaker 3>anger and frustration in fear that he now starts this

535
00:28:34.319 --> 00:28:36.640
<v Speaker 3>kind of process outside of the home after he's gone

536
00:28:36.640 --> 00:28:39.559
<v Speaker 3>through his West Point regalia.

537
00:28:39.759 --> 00:28:42.319
<v Speaker 1>I just wanted to point out outside of just mania,

538
00:28:42.480 --> 00:28:46.240
<v Speaker 1>there can be associated with bipolar disorder an earlier onset

539
00:28:46.359 --> 00:28:49.880
<v Speaker 1>of cognitive decline. He can really tax the brain much

540
00:28:49.960 --> 00:28:53.400
<v Speaker 1>like epilepsy does, and a lot of the mechanisms aren't understood.

541
00:28:53.920 --> 00:28:56.319
<v Speaker 1>But I'm not saying that's what was happening here, but

542
00:28:56.400 --> 00:28:59.039
<v Speaker 1>that could have been something that was contributing to the situation.

543
00:29:00.119 --> 00:29:01.880
<v Speaker 2>And we talked in the last episode that one of

544
00:29:01.880 --> 00:29:04.000
<v Speaker 2>his earliest sources of trauma was the fact that he

545
00:29:04.119 --> 00:29:07.400
<v Speaker 2>lost ten percent of his graduating class from West Point

546
00:29:07.519 --> 00:29:11.359
<v Speaker 2>in Vietnam, which really bothered him. And back in the sixties,

547
00:29:11.400 --> 00:29:13.519
<v Speaker 2>he just was not equipped to deal with the trauma.

548
00:29:13.599 --> 00:29:16.440
<v Speaker 2>So who knows, maybe just reminiscenting about that time and

549
00:29:16.519 --> 00:29:20.720
<v Speaker 2>maybe seeing photographs of his fallen classmates just caused something

550
00:29:20.720 --> 00:29:23.079
<v Speaker 2>to trigger within him and made his condition even worse.

551
00:29:24.200 --> 00:29:26.920
<v Speaker 2>Was not entirely clear with the timeline is whether Jack

552
00:29:26.960 --> 00:29:30.039
<v Speaker 2>tore apart his residence before or after the incident with

553
00:29:30.079 --> 00:29:33.319
<v Speaker 2>the smoke bombs. Details are also kind of murky about

554
00:29:33.319 --> 00:29:36.000
<v Speaker 2>when exactly police found Jack's cell phone at the scene

555
00:29:36.000 --> 00:29:38.680
<v Speaker 2>and traced it back to him. What we do know

556
00:29:38.759 --> 00:29:40.839
<v Speaker 2>is that Jack sent an email to his employer the

557
00:29:40.880 --> 00:29:43.880
<v Speaker 2>following morning to inform them that his house been burglarized

558
00:29:44.119 --> 00:29:46.880
<v Speaker 2>and that a number of important items, including his briefcase

559
00:29:46.920 --> 00:29:49.720
<v Speaker 2>and cell phone, were stolen, Yet he never attempted to

560
00:29:49.759 --> 00:29:53.160
<v Speaker 2>report this to the police. Given that Jack was very

561
00:29:53.200 --> 00:29:55.680
<v Speaker 2>reliant on his cell phone, I'm sure he probably would

562
00:29:55.680 --> 00:29:58.920
<v Speaker 2>have become panicky if he dropped it somewhere, particularly if

563
00:29:58.960 --> 00:30:01.440
<v Speaker 2>he realized that he left it outside the house across

564
00:30:01.440 --> 00:30:03.440
<v Speaker 2>the street and there was no way for him to

565
00:30:03.480 --> 00:30:06.279
<v Speaker 2>retrieve it. If Jack believed that the police were going

566
00:30:06.319 --> 00:30:08.319
<v Speaker 2>to find the phone and trace it back to him,

567
00:30:08.680 --> 00:30:11.039
<v Speaker 2>he may have decided to ransack the house. He may

568
00:30:11.079 --> 00:30:13.759
<v Speaker 2>have decided to ransack his house in stage of burglary

569
00:30:14.039 --> 00:30:16.279
<v Speaker 2>so that he could present a cover story that his

570
00:30:16.319 --> 00:30:19.440
<v Speaker 2>cell phone was stolen by an unknown party who subsequently

571
00:30:19.519 --> 00:30:22.519
<v Speaker 2>dropped it when they tossed the smoke bombs of course,

572
00:30:22.559 --> 00:30:24.640
<v Speaker 2>I don't think anyone would have bought that story, but

573
00:30:24.799 --> 00:30:27.440
<v Speaker 2>I'm sure Jack was not thinking rashally at that point.

574
00:30:28.440 --> 00:30:31.039
<v Speaker 2>One detail about this mystery, which has never been solved,

575
00:30:31.240 --> 00:30:34.440
<v Speaker 2>is what actually did happen to Jack's briefcase, as it

576
00:30:34.480 --> 00:30:37.880
<v Speaker 2>was never found. It's possible that Jack simply left it

577
00:30:37.920 --> 00:30:40.119
<v Speaker 2>on the train during one of his trips, and the

578
00:30:40.160 --> 00:30:42.680
<v Speaker 2>loss of the briefcase was one of the triggering events

579
00:30:42.839 --> 00:30:46.240
<v Speaker 2>which caused his mania to worsen. In fact, I've always

580
00:30:46.279 --> 00:30:49.799
<v Speaker 2>wanted if perhaps Jack kept his medication inside the briefcase,

581
00:30:50.000 --> 00:30:53.119
<v Speaker 2>which is why he stopped taking it. It's also never

582
00:30:53.160 --> 00:30:56.279
<v Speaker 2>been made clear where exactly Jack sent those emails from

583
00:30:56.319 --> 00:30:58.839
<v Speaker 2>on the morning of December the twenty ninth, since he

584
00:30:58.920 --> 00:31:01.440
<v Speaker 2>no longer had his self at that point, but it's

585
00:31:01.480 --> 00:31:04.240
<v Speaker 2>possible he used a computer at an internet cafe or

586
00:31:04.279 --> 00:31:07.440
<v Speaker 2>a library. We do know that Jack was seen at

587
00:31:07.440 --> 00:31:10.640
<v Speaker 2>a Newcastle pharmacy at six pm, and since he often

588
00:31:10.680 --> 00:31:14.319
<v Speaker 2>had its prescriptions filled at that location, Jack naeven stinctively

589
00:31:14.359 --> 00:31:17.440
<v Speaker 2>decided to go there if he lost his medication, though

590
00:31:17.480 --> 00:31:19.480
<v Speaker 2>all he did was ask for a ride to Wilmington.

591
00:31:20.440 --> 00:31:22.880
<v Speaker 2>It does seem apparent that something was wrong with Jack.

592
00:31:22.920 --> 00:31:25.680
<v Speaker 2>At this point, because the security footage chows him wearing

593
00:31:25.680 --> 00:31:27.960
<v Speaker 2>a suit jacket and he does not have an overcoat,

594
00:31:28.240 --> 00:31:31.440
<v Speaker 2>even though the weather was quite cold. When Jack shows

595
00:31:31.519 --> 00:31:34.880
<v Speaker 2>up at the Newcastle County Courthouse parking garage forty minutes later,

596
00:31:35.200 --> 00:31:37.480
<v Speaker 2>he looks to be in even worse shape, since he's

597
00:31:37.519 --> 00:31:41.119
<v Speaker 2>now limping and carrying one of his shoes in his hand. Personally,

598
00:31:41.160 --> 00:31:43.720
<v Speaker 2>when I look at the pharmacy footage, it appears to

599
00:31:43.759 --> 00:31:46.599
<v Speaker 2>me that Jack is already limping when he walks inside.

600
00:31:47.119 --> 00:31:50.000
<v Speaker 2>But there has been speculation that something happened to Jack

601
00:31:50.200 --> 00:31:52.880
<v Speaker 2>during that forty minute window between when he left and

602
00:31:53.039 --> 00:31:54.559
<v Speaker 2>arrived at the parking garage.

603
00:31:55.799 --> 00:32:00.240
<v Speaker 3>That was my thought originally was wherever his in this

604
00:32:00.319 --> 00:32:02.960
<v Speaker 3>transition of when he was going from He was going

605
00:32:03.000 --> 00:32:06.960
<v Speaker 3>from DC down to Delaware, right, Ah, yes, yeah, So

606
00:32:07.000 --> 00:32:09.400
<v Speaker 3>when he's making that transition, I thought, Okay, maybe that's

607
00:32:09.440 --> 00:32:12.920
<v Speaker 3>where he loses his medication. But Jules correct me if

608
00:32:12.920 --> 00:32:15.960
<v Speaker 3>I'm wrong. I feel like if you lost your mental

609
00:32:16.000 --> 00:32:18.640
<v Speaker 3>health medication once you've relied on for decades at this point,

610
00:32:19.160 --> 00:32:21.960
<v Speaker 3>and you have the wherewithal to sit down and communicate

611
00:32:21.960 --> 00:32:25.119
<v Speaker 3>with your family, wouldn't there have been a timeframe where

612
00:32:25.119 --> 00:32:27.559
<v Speaker 3>he went crap, I've lost my medicine. I need to

613
00:32:27.640 --> 00:32:31.440
<v Speaker 3>go get it, and he's on his way to a

614
00:32:31.440 --> 00:32:33.559
<v Speaker 3>place where he has a prescription and he has a

615
00:32:33.559 --> 00:32:35.599
<v Speaker 3>pharmacy where he could go in and report his medicine

616
00:32:35.799 --> 00:32:38.960
<v Speaker 3>medicine missing. I almost think his mental health crisis would

617
00:32:38.960 --> 00:32:41.000
<v Speaker 3>have had to start in DC where he gets that

618
00:32:41.079 --> 00:32:43.799
<v Speaker 3>obsession that he needs to go ruin this home and

619
00:32:43.839 --> 00:32:47.759
<v Speaker 3>stop that construction, because had he been aware that I'm

620
00:32:47.839 --> 00:32:50.680
<v Speaker 3>on this trip, I lost my medication, I think before

621
00:32:50.720 --> 00:32:53.279
<v Speaker 3>a decline, he would have known to replace that medication.

622
00:32:53.440 --> 00:32:57.319
<v Speaker 3>But it makes more sense that the kind of mania

623
00:32:57.440 --> 00:32:59.960
<v Speaker 3>started back in DC to get back down to Delaware

624
00:33:00.079 --> 00:33:03.519
<v Speaker 3>to stop this home construction, and once he does that,

625
00:33:04.319 --> 00:33:06.920
<v Speaker 3>he's already down a spiral where he isn't aware of

626
00:33:06.920 --> 00:33:08.519
<v Speaker 3>what the reality is at that point.

627
00:33:08.680 --> 00:33:12.720
<v Speaker 1>We're operating under the presupposition that he didn't stop taking

628
00:33:12.759 --> 00:33:15.440
<v Speaker 1>his medication prior to when he lost it, which is

629
00:33:15.519 --> 00:33:19.000
<v Speaker 1>also a possibility because I think you're right there are

630
00:33:19.240 --> 00:33:23.319
<v Speaker 1>certain things that indicate that he may have been dealing

631
00:33:23.400 --> 00:33:27.720
<v Speaker 1>with potential mania earlier than that, such as the Vietnam Forum,

632
00:33:27.720 --> 00:33:29.200
<v Speaker 1>what is it or of the West Point for him

633
00:33:29.240 --> 00:33:31.240
<v Speaker 1>that he was part of being kicked out of that

634
00:33:31.359 --> 00:33:35.119
<v Speaker 1>or temporarily banned, and the obsession with the neighbor. So

635
00:33:35.880 --> 00:33:39.480
<v Speaker 1>I think you're right. Ash. If somebody was very much

636
00:33:39.480 --> 00:33:42.440
<v Speaker 1>on top of taking their medication at that time and

637
00:33:43.160 --> 00:33:45.720
<v Speaker 1>they lost it, yeah, I think the next logical step

638
00:33:45.720 --> 00:33:48.000
<v Speaker 1>would be, Okay, I've got to ensure that I can

639
00:33:48.039 --> 00:33:51.119
<v Speaker 1>get this and most mental health medication. You can go

640
00:33:51.160 --> 00:33:53.920
<v Speaker 1>into your pharmacy and say I lost my prescription. It's

641
00:33:54.000 --> 00:33:56.519
<v Speaker 1>not a narcotic. It's not like anyone's going to go

642
00:33:56.599 --> 00:33:59.799
<v Speaker 1>in there with drug seeking behavior looking for something like lithium.

643
00:34:00.240 --> 00:34:03.480
<v Speaker 1>But he didn't do that, So I think you're right.

644
00:34:03.559 --> 00:34:07.119
<v Speaker 1>It does indicate that something was going on earlier and.

645
00:34:07.039 --> 00:34:09.559
<v Speaker 3>As Matt as Catherine got at him, and it makes

646
00:34:09.599 --> 00:34:11.559
<v Speaker 3>it seem like it was pretty abnormal that he was

647
00:34:11.599 --> 00:34:15.039
<v Speaker 3>going to on a holiday ditch the family. She's angry

648
00:34:15.079 --> 00:34:17.480
<v Speaker 3>because she said, this is the holiday, like we're doing Christmas.

649
00:34:17.480 --> 00:34:19.239
<v Speaker 3>Then we've got this wedding on New Year's Eve, Like

650
00:34:19.280 --> 00:34:22.159
<v Speaker 3>why are you going to DC? Why are you going

651
00:34:22.199 --> 00:34:25.800
<v Speaker 3>to work? We have family plans. It almost seems like

652
00:34:25.840 --> 00:34:28.199
<v Speaker 3>it's possible he was struggling then as well, not just

653
00:34:28.280 --> 00:34:32.440
<v Speaker 3>the computer form you mentioned, but Catherine's really frustrated with him, like,

654
00:34:32.519 --> 00:34:35.039
<v Speaker 3>get it together, man, this is not what the plans were.

655
00:34:35.159 --> 00:34:38.480
<v Speaker 3>She's really frustrated. They getting a pretty heated fuss, because

656
00:34:38.519 --> 00:34:41.440
<v Speaker 3>he even expresses to his daughter that fuss is really

657
00:34:41.440 --> 00:34:44.280
<v Speaker 3>weighing on him. So it's possible that this mania was

658
00:34:44.320 --> 00:34:49.519
<v Speaker 3>happening even before his trip, Robin, do you know did

659
00:34:49.960 --> 00:34:52.760
<v Speaker 3>the company confirm that, yes, indeed, he did show up

660
00:34:52.760 --> 00:34:55.400
<v Speaker 3>and he was working for them, or they had requested

661
00:34:55.480 --> 00:34:58.000
<v Speaker 3>him to come work for them in that Christmas holiday time.

662
00:34:58.440 --> 00:35:00.800
<v Speaker 2>No, they never actually did request. It was pretty much

663
00:35:00.800 --> 00:35:03.280
<v Speaker 2>his own decision that he wanted to go to Washington

664
00:35:03.440 --> 00:35:05.400
<v Speaker 2>and catch up on some work, even though it was

665
00:35:05.440 --> 00:35:07.920
<v Speaker 2>supposed to be a holiday. But it's never really been

666
00:35:07.960 --> 00:35:10.400
<v Speaker 2>confirmed if he actually showed up. We know that he

667
00:35:10.440 --> 00:35:12.679
<v Speaker 2>took the train from New York to Washington and he

668
00:35:12.760 --> 00:35:15.199
<v Speaker 2>was there for a few hours, but then he hopped

669
00:35:15.239 --> 00:35:18.000
<v Speaker 2>on the train to Delaware, but we don't know what

670
00:35:18.079 --> 00:35:20.239
<v Speaker 2>he was doing in Washington. We have no idea if

671
00:35:20.239 --> 00:35:21.920
<v Speaker 2>he actually showed up at his office or not.

672
00:35:23.679 --> 00:35:27.480
<v Speaker 1>One detail that the unsolved Mystery segment is frustratingly vague

673
00:35:27.480 --> 00:35:30.960
<v Speaker 1>about is who exactly gave Jack a ride from the

674
00:35:31.000 --> 00:35:34.039
<v Speaker 1>pharmacy and where did they take him? Did they drop

675
00:35:34.119 --> 00:35:37.440
<v Speaker 1>him off at the parking garage or take him elsewhere. Well,

676
00:35:37.480 --> 00:35:40.559
<v Speaker 1>shortly after the release of their episode, Unsolved Mysteries, co

677
00:35:40.679 --> 00:35:44.800
<v Speaker 1>creator Terry dun Muir addressed this question during an interview

678
00:35:44.840 --> 00:35:48.079
<v Speaker 1>with the website The Wrap dot com, where she confirmed

679
00:35:48.119 --> 00:35:50.280
<v Speaker 1>that a man and a woman gave Jack a ride

680
00:35:50.360 --> 00:35:52.920
<v Speaker 1>and they were not believed to be involved in his disappearance.

681
00:35:53.599 --> 00:35:55.760
<v Speaker 1>But the show was unable to track this couple down

682
00:35:55.800 --> 00:35:59.599
<v Speaker 1>to interview them or obtain any specific details about Jack's trip.

683
00:36:00.280 --> 00:36:02.159
<v Speaker 1>But we know that Jack left his car in a

684
00:36:02.199 --> 00:36:05.920
<v Speaker 1>train station parking lot garage one week earlier, so he

685
00:36:06.000 --> 00:36:08.159
<v Speaker 1>may have asked to be dropped off at the courthouse

686
00:36:08.199 --> 00:36:11.280
<v Speaker 1>parking garage because he was under the mistaken impression that

687
00:36:11.320 --> 00:36:15.280
<v Speaker 1>his vehicle was there. It's never been conclusively established where

688
00:36:15.400 --> 00:36:18.599
<v Speaker 1>Jack went after he left the garage, but the Unsolved

689
00:36:18.639 --> 00:36:21.880
<v Speaker 1>Mystery segment did say that the evidence was found to

690
00:36:21.920 --> 00:36:24.840
<v Speaker 1>suggest that Jack spent the night in the basement of

691
00:36:24.880 --> 00:36:27.480
<v Speaker 1>the Nemorous building, which is where he was seen the

692
00:36:27.519 --> 00:36:31.000
<v Speaker 1>following day. The building is a large complex and there

693
00:36:31.039 --> 00:36:33.519
<v Speaker 1>are a number of four doors down in the basement area,

694
00:36:34.000 --> 00:36:36.320
<v Speaker 1>so I can definitely believe that Jack might have been

695
00:36:36.360 --> 00:36:39.599
<v Speaker 1>able to hide out there undetected. We know that Jack

696
00:36:39.719 --> 00:36:42.280
<v Speaker 1>visited the law firm at the building named Connelly Beau

697
00:36:42.480 --> 00:36:45.679
<v Speaker 1>Lodge and Huts and asked to speak with the managing

698
00:36:45.719 --> 00:36:49.159
<v Speaker 1>partner before he left, even though Jack did not seem

699
00:36:49.239 --> 00:36:52.159
<v Speaker 1>to have any apparent connection to that firm. Here's a

700
00:36:52.199 --> 00:36:55.360
<v Speaker 1>detail that I've only seen mentioned in one source. The

701
00:36:55.400 --> 00:36:58.360
<v Speaker 1>Wheeler family, as Robin I think mentioned in Part one,

702
00:36:58.679 --> 00:37:01.760
<v Speaker 1>did have an attorney named holmb Connolly, who became a

703
00:37:01.800 --> 00:37:05.800
<v Speaker 1>spokesperson for them following his death. However, even though colmb

704
00:37:05.920 --> 00:37:08.880
<v Speaker 1>Connolly did work at the nemorous building, he was not

705
00:37:08.960 --> 00:37:12.000
<v Speaker 1>employed by that particular firm, which was named after an

706
00:37:12.159 --> 00:37:15.599
<v Speaker 1>entirely different Connolly. I have to wonder if perhaps Jack

707
00:37:15.679 --> 00:37:17.840
<v Speaker 1>wanted to speak to an attorney because he feared there

708
00:37:17.920 --> 00:37:20.960
<v Speaker 1>might be legal problems for the incident with the smoke bombs,

709
00:37:21.519 --> 00:37:23.559
<v Speaker 1>but he was so disoriented that he went to the

710
00:37:23.599 --> 00:37:27.199
<v Speaker 1>wrong law firm. The surveillance footage of Jack wandering around

711
00:37:27.239 --> 00:37:30.559
<v Speaker 1>the basement really paints the picture of someone who seems

712
00:37:30.599 --> 00:37:33.679
<v Speaker 1>lost and unsure of what to do. Another point of

713
00:37:33.719 --> 00:37:36.840
<v Speaker 1>confusion is that when Jack was filmed leaving the building

714
00:37:36.920 --> 00:37:39.760
<v Speaker 1>later that night. He was wearing a hoodie which didn't

715
00:37:39.800 --> 00:37:42.599
<v Speaker 1>belong to him, but there was actually an employee locker

716
00:37:42.679 --> 00:37:44.960
<v Speaker 1>room in the basement area, so it's my guess that

717
00:37:45.039 --> 00:37:47.920
<v Speaker 1>Jack might have stolen the hoodie from there. The last

718
00:37:47.960 --> 00:37:50.880
<v Speaker 1>confirmed sighting of Jack took place at eight forty two PM,

719
00:37:51.360 --> 00:37:54.000
<v Speaker 1>and his body was found just over twelve hours later,

720
00:37:54.400 --> 00:37:56.599
<v Speaker 1>so what happened during this window of time is a

721
00:37:56.639 --> 00:37:57.360
<v Speaker 1>big mystery.

722
00:37:58.960 --> 00:38:01.320
<v Speaker 3>It's also interesting that we have no idea where Jack

723
00:38:01.440 --> 00:38:04.079
<v Speaker 3>was sleeping or where he was resting while he was there.

724
00:38:04.119 --> 00:38:07.320
<v Speaker 3>He had a home in this area, but it sounds

725
00:38:07.360 --> 00:38:10.480
<v Speaker 3>like from the looks of how disheveled he was, how

726
00:38:10.480 --> 00:38:13.039
<v Speaker 3>he had dirt all over his clothes, how he was

727
00:38:13.280 --> 00:38:16.480
<v Speaker 3>losing clothing items, like he was wearing a suit at first,

728
00:38:16.840 --> 00:38:19.039
<v Speaker 3>then he was not wearing the suit jacket, then he

729
00:38:19.079 --> 00:38:22.840
<v Speaker 3>had the sweatshirt on. People were reporting he looked homeless

730
00:38:22.960 --> 00:38:27.480
<v Speaker 3>and dirty. You can tell that clearly either he had

731
00:38:27.480 --> 00:38:29.840
<v Speaker 3>not tended to himself when he got home, but more

732
00:38:30.039 --> 00:38:32.800
<v Speaker 3>likely that he might not have ever gone back home

733
00:38:33.039 --> 00:38:35.559
<v Speaker 3>at some point and was kind of drifting around in

734
00:38:35.639 --> 00:38:39.360
<v Speaker 3>this manick state and wasn't resting, was sleeping on the

735
00:38:39.400 --> 00:38:44.159
<v Speaker 3>street was really just lost and kind of stumbling through.

736
00:38:44.760 --> 00:38:47.119
<v Speaker 3>It sounds like he could have had that impulsivity to

737
00:38:47.119 --> 00:38:49.599
<v Speaker 3>go down to the locker room and steal a sweatshirt.

738
00:38:49.760 --> 00:38:52.119
<v Speaker 3>It was cold outside as well, and remember at one

739
00:38:52.159 --> 00:38:55.679
<v Speaker 3>point he doesn't even have his shoes on. So it's

740
00:38:55.800 --> 00:38:59.719
<v Speaker 3>really confusing given that he had the home there. If

741
00:38:59.719 --> 00:39:04.400
<v Speaker 3>this wasn't a complete mental break, he would have returned

742
00:39:04.440 --> 00:39:06.559
<v Speaker 3>back to his house, and so it's pretty clear that

743
00:39:06.559 --> 00:39:11.159
<v Speaker 3>that's going on. The question then becomes what could have happened?

744
00:39:11.239 --> 00:39:13.840
<v Speaker 3>Who could he have run into or did he climb

745
00:39:13.880 --> 00:39:16.679
<v Speaker 3>into a garbage bind by himself? So that's kind of

746
00:39:16.679 --> 00:39:19.440
<v Speaker 3>that gap. We know he was struggling at this point,

747
00:39:19.480 --> 00:39:21.639
<v Speaker 3>We know that he was not doing any of the

748
00:39:21.679 --> 00:39:25.119
<v Speaker 3>things that were at his access, getting help, going back

749
00:39:25.159 --> 00:39:27.840
<v Speaker 3>to his own home, going to get his medicine from

750
00:39:27.880 --> 00:39:30.800
<v Speaker 3>the pharmacy. So then that twelve hours, like you said,

751
00:39:30.840 --> 00:39:33.960
<v Speaker 3>what happened there? That's the big question because we know

752
00:39:34.679 --> 00:39:37.400
<v Speaker 3>he's on this downward spiral. Did someone take advantage of that,

753
00:39:37.480 --> 00:39:39.679
<v Speaker 3>did someone get scared by that? Or was this an

754
00:39:39.719 --> 00:39:42.199
<v Speaker 3>accident where simply his mental health overcame him.

755
00:39:43.199 --> 00:39:45.320
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I'm guessing the main reason he didn't return home

756
00:39:45.440 --> 00:39:48.000
<v Speaker 2>is because he knew he'd tossed those smoke bombs into

757
00:39:48.039 --> 00:39:50.239
<v Speaker 2>the house across the street and left his cell phone there,

758
00:39:50.320 --> 00:39:52.320
<v Speaker 2>so he probably figured, if I try to return home,

759
00:39:52.400 --> 00:39:55.320
<v Speaker 2>I'm probably going to get arrested. So he was probably

760
00:39:55.360 --> 00:39:57.400
<v Speaker 2>just wander around the city trying to think about what

761
00:39:57.480 --> 00:40:00.679
<v Speaker 2>his options were and what to do next. But unfortunately

762
00:40:00.719 --> 00:40:03.400
<v Speaker 2>it just eventually led to his death. And on a

763
00:40:03.440 --> 00:40:05.199
<v Speaker 2>lighter note, I do find it funny that one of

764
00:40:05.199 --> 00:40:07.760
<v Speaker 2>the partners at that law firm has the last name Huts,

765
00:40:07.840 --> 00:40:09.760
<v Speaker 2>So I wonder how many jokes they got about line

766
00:40:09.800 --> 00:40:14.960
<v Speaker 2>of lots from The Simpsons. Given that traces of Jack's

767
00:40:15.039 --> 00:40:17.840
<v Speaker 2>DNA were found inside a dumpster in Newark, the theory

768
00:40:17.840 --> 00:40:20.679
<v Speaker 2>about a garbage truck collecting his body and transporting it

769
00:40:20.679 --> 00:40:23.840
<v Speaker 2>to the Cherry Island landfill is logical. But the big

770
00:40:23.960 --> 00:40:26.400
<v Speaker 2>question is how Jack made it to Newark to begin with,

771
00:40:26.559 --> 00:40:29.920
<v Speaker 2>since it's about fourteen miles away from Wilmington. Well, we

772
00:40:30.000 --> 00:40:32.360
<v Speaker 2>have the account from the eyewitness who believed they shared

773
00:40:32.400 --> 00:40:34.719
<v Speaker 2>a taxi CAAP ride to Newark with Jack at around

774
00:40:34.760 --> 00:40:38.400
<v Speaker 2>eleven thirty pm. And while the unsaw Mystery segment planted

775
00:40:38.400 --> 00:40:40.880
<v Speaker 2>the seed that the witness could have been mistaken. I

776
00:40:40.920 --> 00:40:43.519
<v Speaker 2>think this would be the best explanation for how Jack

777
00:40:43.559 --> 00:40:46.480
<v Speaker 2>got there. Of course, we still have no idea why

778
00:40:46.559 --> 00:40:48.559
<v Speaker 2>Jack would want to make a trip to Newark, but

779
00:40:48.639 --> 00:40:50.559
<v Speaker 2>given a state of mind at the time, we really

780
00:40:50.559 --> 00:40:54.320
<v Speaker 2>can't apply standard logic to his actions. Remember, we have

781
00:40:54.440 --> 00:40:57.159
<v Speaker 2>reports of him asking people for a ride to Philadelphia

782
00:40:57.199 --> 00:40:59.559
<v Speaker 2>while he was at the Nemores Building earlier that day,

783
00:41:00.039 --> 00:41:02.199
<v Speaker 2>even though there's no real reason for him to travel

784
00:41:02.239 --> 00:41:05.639
<v Speaker 2>there either. So after Jack arrived in Newark, there are

785
00:41:05.679 --> 00:41:09.079
<v Speaker 2>two possible explanations for how he died. He climbed into

786
00:41:09.119 --> 00:41:12.079
<v Speaker 2>the dumpster himself, possibly to get warm, and was killed

787
00:41:12.119 --> 00:41:14.519
<v Speaker 2>by the injuries he sustained by being picked up by

788
00:41:14.519 --> 00:41:17.559
<v Speaker 2>the garbage truck, or he crossed pass with an unknown

789
00:41:17.559 --> 00:41:20.320
<v Speaker 2>party who killed him and tossed his body into the dumpster.

790
00:41:21.239 --> 00:41:24.159
<v Speaker 2>Even though Jack's official cause of death was blood forced trauma,

791
00:41:24.440 --> 00:41:26.519
<v Speaker 2>I guess a third explanation is that he could have

792
00:41:26.519 --> 00:41:29.039
<v Speaker 2>suffered a fatal heart attack before he even wound up

793
00:41:29.079 --> 00:41:31.320
<v Speaker 2>in the truck. As it sounds like his family has

794
00:41:31.320 --> 00:41:34.239
<v Speaker 2>been given conflicting information about whether or not a heart

795
00:41:34.239 --> 00:41:37.440
<v Speaker 2>attack took place, his death may have been a combination

796
00:41:37.519 --> 00:41:40.800
<v Speaker 2>of heart attack and injuries. But could the medical examiner

797
00:41:40.880 --> 00:41:44.159
<v Speaker 2>have mistaken injuries caused by a garbage truck for injuries

798
00:41:44.199 --> 00:41:45.360
<v Speaker 2>caused by a beating.

799
00:41:46.280 --> 00:41:49.119
<v Speaker 3>Well, I would assume that. Well, of course, I would

800
00:41:49.119 --> 00:41:52.000
<v Speaker 3>also assume that a heart attack could come on from

801
00:41:52.400 --> 00:41:56.480
<v Speaker 3>sudden a physical trauma to your body, When your organs

802
00:41:56.519 --> 00:41:59.639
<v Speaker 3>are injured, when you're having internal bleeding, When all those

803
00:41:59.639 --> 00:42:02.480
<v Speaker 3>things are happening, I believe your heart has just an

804
00:42:02.480 --> 00:42:05.239
<v Speaker 3>equal chance of giving out as well. So I think

805
00:42:05.320 --> 00:42:10.760
<v Speaker 3>that you could associate the physical trauma with also being

806
00:42:10.760 --> 00:42:14.920
<v Speaker 3>combined with his heart being affected. I also know that

807
00:42:15.159 --> 00:42:17.800
<v Speaker 3>mental health plays a role in heart attacks and things

808
00:42:17.840 --> 00:42:22.800
<v Speaker 3>like that, So you know, you see grief and emotional

809
00:42:22.840 --> 00:42:26.920
<v Speaker 3>trauma and things like that weighing on people's organ functions

810
00:42:26.960 --> 00:42:29.800
<v Speaker 3>and increased risk of cardiovascular disease.

811
00:42:29.559 --> 00:42:30.519
<v Speaker 2>And things of that nature.

812
00:42:30.599 --> 00:42:33.880
<v Speaker 3>So if he's in this heightened state, an injury could

813
00:42:34.000 --> 00:42:39.079
<v Speaker 3>have definitely caused a coinciding heart attack. But is it

814
00:42:39.199 --> 00:42:42.320
<v Speaker 3>also possible that maybe just the trauma and the pressure

815
00:42:42.480 --> 00:42:44.800
<v Speaker 3>inside his body could have also caused his body to

816
00:42:44.840 --> 00:42:47.719
<v Speaker 3>shut down. I just there's no way to know what

817
00:42:47.840 --> 00:42:51.079
<v Speaker 3>came first, rights what's happening to his little body. What's

818
00:42:51.119 --> 00:42:54.639
<v Speaker 3>sad is the family is getting mixed messages, not because

819
00:42:54.679 --> 00:42:57.360
<v Speaker 3>of any kind of nefarious act or any kind of

820
00:42:57.760 --> 00:43:01.400
<v Speaker 3>desire to mislead them, but they are getting conflicting information,

821
00:43:01.519 --> 00:43:05.519
<v Speaker 3>which further complicates their ability to move forward and understand

822
00:43:05.559 --> 00:43:08.079
<v Speaker 3>what actually happened to Jack. They're still asking questions.

823
00:43:08.559 --> 00:43:12.440
<v Speaker 1>If Jack wasn't sleeping, his chance of having a cardiac

824
00:43:12.480 --> 00:43:16.800
<v Speaker 1>event goes up exponentially, which with each day that he's missing.

825
00:43:17.280 --> 00:43:21.599
<v Speaker 1>So that, combined with the possible trauma from a trash compactor,

826
00:43:22.079 --> 00:43:24.480
<v Speaker 1>I think would be a recipe for a heart attack,

827
00:43:24.960 --> 00:43:26.320
<v Speaker 1>if that is indeed what happened.

828
00:43:27.199 --> 00:43:29.159
<v Speaker 2>I mean, it's true we were under the assumption he

829
00:43:29.199 --> 00:43:31.360
<v Speaker 2>slept the night before, but we can't be one hundred

830
00:43:31.360 --> 00:43:33.599
<v Speaker 2>percent sure that he even did sleep, Like he could

831
00:43:33.639 --> 00:43:36.480
<v Speaker 2>have spent the entire night wandering around, and which means

832
00:43:36.480 --> 00:43:38.400
<v Speaker 2>he would have been up for maybe around forty eight

833
00:43:38.440 --> 00:43:40.960
<v Speaker 2>hours at that point, which could have increased his chances

834
00:43:40.960 --> 00:43:41.719
<v Speaker 2>of a heart attack.

835
00:43:42.480 --> 00:43:44.519
<v Speaker 1>And even if he was just sleeping a few hours

836
00:43:44.559 --> 00:43:46.920
<v Speaker 1>a night, that would still increase his chance of a

837
00:43:46.920 --> 00:43:51.400
<v Speaker 1>heart attack. Well, here's a section from a May twenty

838
00:43:51.440 --> 00:43:55.480
<v Speaker 1>seventeen article of The Washington Post written by journalist Steve Volk.

839
00:43:56.519 --> 00:44:00.119
<v Speaker 1>He was interviewed during Unsolved Mystery segment. It reads quote

840
00:44:00.559 --> 00:44:04.039
<v Speaker 1>Connolly hired a private investigator who brought CLIs a theory

841
00:44:04.360 --> 00:44:08.559
<v Speaker 1>which remains popular on the internet that Wheeler wasn't actually killed.

842
00:44:09.119 --> 00:44:11.800
<v Speaker 1>In this scenario, Wheeler sought refuge from the cold in

843
00:44:11.840 --> 00:44:15.039
<v Speaker 1>a dumpster and died after the drop into a trash truck.

844
00:44:15.679 --> 00:44:19.320
<v Speaker 1>Newark police reject this idea, however, saying the autopsy's evidence,

845
00:44:19.679 --> 00:44:22.760
<v Speaker 1>which they won't specify for fear of harming the investigation,

846
00:44:23.480 --> 00:44:27.360
<v Speaker 1>is entirely consistent with a homicide. Furthermore, a photograph of

847
00:44:27.360 --> 00:44:30.239
<v Speaker 1>Wheeler taken after his death, which a friend of the

848
00:44:30.239 --> 00:44:33.400
<v Speaker 1>family shared with their permission, shows Wheeler's face and head

849
00:44:33.480 --> 00:44:36.320
<v Speaker 1>covered in bruises that appear to be more likely the

850
00:44:36.360 --> 00:44:39.239
<v Speaker 1>product of a sustained pummeling than a drop into a

851
00:44:39.280 --> 00:44:43.320
<v Speaker 1>trash truck. Now, admittedly we haven't seen the original autopsy

852
00:44:43.360 --> 00:44:47.039
<v Speaker 1>report since it's never been released publicly, but I noticed

853
00:44:47.079 --> 00:44:49.760
<v Speaker 1>they kept using the phrase drop into a trash truck

854
00:44:50.239 --> 00:44:53.519
<v Speaker 1>and never actually made mention of the trash compactor. I'd

855
00:44:53.559 --> 00:44:56.400
<v Speaker 1>really be curious to know if you could distinguish injuries

856
00:44:56.400 --> 00:44:57.639
<v Speaker 1>from a drop.

857
00:44:57.719 --> 00:45:00.320
<v Speaker 3>That's exactly right, like when they made the decision A originally,

858
00:45:00.360 --> 00:45:03.079
<v Speaker 3>I understand it right. You get a body that's laying

859
00:45:03.119 --> 00:45:06.280
<v Speaker 3>on top of a trash pile and you say, Okay,

860
00:45:06.320 --> 00:45:09.119
<v Speaker 3>clearly this person has been bludgeoned to death. There are

861
00:45:09.159 --> 00:45:12.280
<v Speaker 3>too many injuries on their body. It is blunt force trauma.

862
00:45:12.880 --> 00:45:14.800
<v Speaker 3>But when you back up and you say, wait a minute,

863
00:45:14.880 --> 00:45:17.159
<v Speaker 3>you're telling me that they were in a trash container,

864
00:45:17.239 --> 00:45:20.800
<v Speaker 3>they were dumped into a trash truck that uses a compactor,

865
00:45:20.840 --> 00:45:23.760
<v Speaker 3>and then they were dumped into this landfill. There's a

866
00:45:23.800 --> 00:45:26.599
<v Speaker 3>lot of injury that would be sustained just from that

867
00:45:26.639 --> 00:45:31.159
<v Speaker 3>transportation experience. Now, there are ways to look at bruising

868
00:45:31.320 --> 00:45:33.960
<v Speaker 3>and when a body is deceased and how the bruising

869
00:45:34.039 --> 00:45:36.480
<v Speaker 3>is affected by time of death and all of those

870
00:45:36.599 --> 00:45:42.119
<v Speaker 3>kinds of conditions. So there's definitely forensic ways to establish

871
00:45:42.519 --> 00:45:46.920
<v Speaker 3>times of injuries and all of that. But again, given

872
00:45:47.000 --> 00:45:51.119
<v Speaker 3>the complicated nature of this case, it would be really

873
00:45:51.159 --> 00:45:55.000
<v Speaker 3>difficult to look at injuries to bone injury, to the

874
00:45:55.119 --> 00:46:01.480
<v Speaker 3>skin injury and discoloration and definitely no, this is from

875
00:46:01.559 --> 00:46:03.800
<v Speaker 3>this event, while this injury is from this event. It

876
00:46:03.800 --> 00:46:06.239
<v Speaker 3>would just be very very difficult to kind of separate

877
00:46:06.280 --> 00:46:07.679
<v Speaker 3>those out. I would think.

878
00:46:09.679 --> 00:46:12.679
<v Speaker 2>This whole situation is pretty reminiscent of a high profile

879
00:46:12.719 --> 00:46:16.039
<v Speaker 2>missing person's case from the United Kingdom involving a Royal

880
00:46:16.119 --> 00:46:19.719
<v Speaker 2>Air Force Regiment gunner named Corey mcgeeg, who vanished after

881
00:46:19.800 --> 00:46:22.599
<v Speaker 2>leaving a nightclub in Suffolk during the early morning hours

882
00:46:22.599 --> 00:46:26.599
<v Speaker 2>in September of twenty sixteen. The most common theory in

883
00:46:26.599 --> 00:46:29.679
<v Speaker 2>that case is that since mcgegu was heavily intoxicated at

884
00:46:29.679 --> 00:46:32.159
<v Speaker 2>the time, and there were a number of industrial bins

885
00:46:32.159 --> 00:46:34.679
<v Speaker 2>on the route he was last seen taking, he wound

886
00:46:34.719 --> 00:46:36.880
<v Speaker 2>up climbing into one before was picked up by a

887
00:46:36.880 --> 00:46:40.440
<v Speaker 2>garbage truck and mckeigue was crushed to death. His body

888
00:46:40.519 --> 00:46:42.840
<v Speaker 2>was then taken to a landfill site and dumped there.

889
00:46:43.079 --> 00:46:45.599
<v Speaker 2>And while the authorities have performed numerous searches of this

890
00:46:45.760 --> 00:46:48.920
<v Speaker 2>landfill and found nothing, there is so much waste there

891
00:46:49.000 --> 00:46:52.519
<v Speaker 2>that its fear of mcgeig's remains might be irretrievable. So

892
00:46:52.679 --> 00:46:56.119
<v Speaker 2>all things considered, Jack Wheeler's family got very lucky that

893
00:46:56.159 --> 00:46:58.440
<v Speaker 2>there was a spot er at the Cherry Island landfill

894
00:46:58.599 --> 00:47:01.000
<v Speaker 2>who noticed his body right after it was dumped there.

895
00:47:01.719 --> 00:47:04.440
<v Speaker 2>Otherwise it's possible that Jack might still be a missing

896
00:47:04.440 --> 00:47:06.679
<v Speaker 2>person of this day, and no one would have any

897
00:47:06.719 --> 00:47:09.760
<v Speaker 2>idea what happened to him. The biggest hold in the

898
00:47:09.760 --> 00:47:12.000
<v Speaker 2>theory that Jack was the victim of foul play is

899
00:47:12.000 --> 00:47:14.920
<v Speaker 2>that he was still wearing valuable jewelry and had cash

900
00:47:14.920 --> 00:47:17.400
<v Speaker 2>on him when his body was found. So if robbery

901
00:47:17.480 --> 00:47:20.639
<v Speaker 2>was not the motive for his death, what was If

902
00:47:20.639 --> 00:47:23.360
<v Speaker 2>he simply got into an altercation with a random stranger

903
00:47:23.400 --> 00:47:25.800
<v Speaker 2>who caused his death, why would they go to the

904
00:47:25.800 --> 00:47:29.039
<v Speaker 2>trouble of placing his body in a dumpster? I'd even

905
00:47:29.079 --> 00:47:31.519
<v Speaker 2>see in a vehicular hit and run push forward as

906
00:47:31.519 --> 00:47:35.440
<v Speaker 2>a potential explanation for Jack's injuries. But again, why would

907
00:47:35.480 --> 00:47:38.480
<v Speaker 2>a motorist risk concealing his body rather than simply fleeing

908
00:47:38.519 --> 00:47:38.920
<v Speaker 2>the scene?

909
00:47:39.840 --> 00:47:42.760
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, exactly, if you hit him as a motorist, you

910
00:47:42.880 --> 00:47:45.960
<v Speaker 3>would just keep ongoing because by the time you physically

911
00:47:46.000 --> 00:47:50.719
<v Speaker 3>make contact with his body, hair, fingerprint, skin, all of

912
00:47:50.760 --> 00:47:54.119
<v Speaker 3>that has the potential to be transferred. And I don't

913
00:47:54.119 --> 00:47:58.239
<v Speaker 3>think that that would be one of the explanations that's

914
00:47:58.320 --> 00:47:59.079
<v Speaker 3>plausible here.

915
00:47:59.400 --> 00:48:00.039
<v Speaker 2>When you look at the.

916
00:48:00.159 --> 00:48:03.840
<v Speaker 3>Idea of a robbery, same thing. He looks dishoveled and homeless.

917
00:48:03.960 --> 00:48:06.519
<v Speaker 3>I do not think that someone's approaching him to rob him.

918
00:48:07.159 --> 00:48:10.679
<v Speaker 3>I do think there are people who when you hear

919
00:48:10.719 --> 00:48:14.239
<v Speaker 3>about criminals and the way they operate, some are just opportunistic.

920
00:48:14.360 --> 00:48:16.519
<v Speaker 3>And if you have somebody who has a darkness and

921
00:48:16.519 --> 00:48:19.599
<v Speaker 3>an evil inside of them, there are people who enjoy

922
00:48:19.719 --> 00:48:22.719
<v Speaker 3>hurting people for fun. And so you see this man

923
00:48:22.800 --> 00:48:27.039
<v Speaker 3>who's vulnerable and stumbling around and incoherent, it makes a

924
00:48:27.159 --> 00:48:29.679
<v Speaker 3>very easy target that you would assume nobody was going

925
00:48:29.719 --> 00:48:32.960
<v Speaker 3>to miss or realize was missing. So I think there's

926
00:48:33.039 --> 00:48:36.760
<v Speaker 3>that potential he is vulnerable and therefore he's attacked. I

927
00:48:36.880 --> 00:48:39.760
<v Speaker 3>also think he has this history of aggression and anger

928
00:48:40.199 --> 00:48:44.119
<v Speaker 3>and kind of erratic behavior. Can be very very aggressive,

929
00:48:44.119 --> 00:48:48.000
<v Speaker 3>to the point where his neighbors, the posters on those forums,

930
00:48:48.119 --> 00:48:49.960
<v Speaker 3>they were having to step back and say, you've got

931
00:48:50.000 --> 00:48:51.920
<v Speaker 3>to stop. I don't like your behavior. It makes me

932
00:48:52.000 --> 00:48:54.760
<v Speaker 3>uncomfortable or it scares me. So if that's what we

933
00:48:54.840 --> 00:48:57.199
<v Speaker 3>know can happen when he's not in his best mental

934
00:48:57.239 --> 00:48:59.840
<v Speaker 3>health state, it is very possible that he threatens some

935
00:49:00.280 --> 00:49:01.920
<v Speaker 3>or scared them to the point where they stood up

936
00:49:01.920 --> 00:49:04.519
<v Speaker 3>for themselves and fought back and it went too far.

937
00:49:05.119 --> 00:49:07.480
<v Speaker 3>Are they decided they were going to end his life

938
00:49:07.559 --> 00:49:10.519
<v Speaker 3>to protect Fairs or got so angry at him that

939
00:49:10.519 --> 00:49:13.519
<v Speaker 3>they ended his life. So all of those scenarios are possible,

940
00:49:13.559 --> 00:49:17.079
<v Speaker 3>but the motor vehicle hitting him and taking the time

941
00:49:17.119 --> 00:49:18.920
<v Speaker 3>to get out and place his body in a dumpster,

942
00:49:19.239 --> 00:49:22.920
<v Speaker 3>and or a robbery, those two just don't seem fitting whatsoever.

943
00:49:25.079 --> 00:49:27.760
<v Speaker 1>However, we do have to make a comparison to yet

944
00:49:27.800 --> 00:49:30.239
<v Speaker 1>another case that we've covered which has a number of

945
00:49:30.239 --> 00:49:33.440
<v Speaker 1>similarities to this one, and that's the nineteen ninety six

946
00:49:33.519 --> 00:49:37.199
<v Speaker 1>death of Blair Adams, who took an unexpected four thousand

947
00:49:37.239 --> 00:49:40.360
<v Speaker 1>mile cross country trip from his home in British Columbia

948
00:49:40.480 --> 00:49:43.400
<v Speaker 1>before he was found dead in the parking lot in Knoxville, Tennessee.

949
00:49:44.360 --> 00:49:47.960
<v Speaker 1>The circumstances of Blair's death were incredibly bizarre, as he

950
00:49:48.079 --> 00:49:50.840
<v Speaker 1>was nude from the waist down and thousands of dollars

951
00:49:50.880 --> 00:49:54.519
<v Speaker 1>in different currencies were scattered around the scene. Like Jack,

952
00:49:54.639 --> 00:49:57.400
<v Speaker 1>Blair had been acting very strangely prior to his death,

953
00:49:57.840 --> 00:50:00.480
<v Speaker 1>as he was paranoid, his life was in danger, and

954
00:50:00.519 --> 00:50:03.280
<v Speaker 1>the people were after him, so it seemed a parent

955
00:50:03.360 --> 00:50:06.800
<v Speaker 1>he was suffering from some sort of undiagnosed mental health issues.

956
00:50:07.360 --> 00:50:09.519
<v Speaker 1>But of course, the key difference is that Blair was

957
00:50:09.599 --> 00:50:12.960
<v Speaker 1>killed by a violent blow which ruptured his stomach, something

958
00:50:13.000 --> 00:50:16.079
<v Speaker 1>which could not have been self inflicted, so a third

959
00:50:16.159 --> 00:50:19.039
<v Speaker 1>party had to have been involved at his death. When

960
00:50:19.079 --> 00:50:22.199
<v Speaker 1>you track Blair's movements, it seems very unlikely that someone

961
00:50:22.239 --> 00:50:24.880
<v Speaker 1>could have followed him across the continent, which is why

962
00:50:24.920 --> 00:50:27.320
<v Speaker 1>we've always suspected that he was killed by someone he

963
00:50:27.400 --> 00:50:31.599
<v Speaker 1>crossed paths with in Knoxville. Given his erratic behavior, perhaps

964
00:50:31.639 --> 00:50:35.239
<v Speaker 1>Blair had an encounter with a completely random stranger and

965
00:50:35.360 --> 00:50:38.159
<v Speaker 1>said or did something which prompted this person to deliver

966
00:50:38.239 --> 00:50:42.360
<v Speaker 1>a fatal blow to his stomach before fleeing the scene. Theoretically,

967
00:50:42.400 --> 00:50:44.480
<v Speaker 1>the same thing could have happened to Jack, as he

968
00:50:44.519 --> 00:50:46.679
<v Speaker 1>may have been wandering the streets of Newark and had

969
00:50:46.719 --> 00:50:49.960
<v Speaker 1>an encounter with the stranger who beat him and inflicted

970
00:50:50.039 --> 00:50:53.239
<v Speaker 1>the injuries that caused his death. This beating could have

971
00:50:53.280 --> 00:50:55.880
<v Speaker 1>been caused by nothing more than Jack's saying or doing

972
00:50:55.920 --> 00:50:58.639
<v Speaker 1>something which set his attacker or attackers off.

973
00:51:00.000 --> 00:51:02.559
<v Speaker 3>But we also talked about the fact that Jack would

974
00:51:02.599 --> 00:51:05.000
<v Speaker 3>have been placed in that dumpster had he been attacked,

975
00:51:05.519 --> 00:51:08.440
<v Speaker 3>But the reality is he could have been attacked and

976
00:51:08.440 --> 00:51:11.559
<v Speaker 3>then stumbled off and crawled into that dumpster. Himself out

977
00:51:11.559 --> 00:51:14.519
<v Speaker 3>of fear, out of paranoia that the people were coming

978
00:51:14.559 --> 00:51:17.599
<v Speaker 3>back to get him and finish him off. So my

979
00:51:17.760 --> 00:51:20.440
<v Speaker 3>original assumption was that he either was attacked and placed

980
00:51:20.480 --> 00:51:23.320
<v Speaker 3>in that bin, or he got in himself to stay warm,

981
00:51:23.679 --> 00:51:26.119
<v Speaker 3>But there actually could have been a combination of those two.

982
00:51:26.280 --> 00:51:28.480
<v Speaker 3>That he got beaten and then he himself also crawled

983
00:51:28.519 --> 00:51:32.360
<v Speaker 3>into the garbage bin, and those injuries were life threatening.

984
00:51:32.400 --> 00:51:34.840
<v Speaker 3>They did cause his body to go into cardiac arrest

985
00:51:35.039 --> 00:51:39.480
<v Speaker 3>or internal bleeding caused his death. So I had not

986
00:51:39.559 --> 00:51:41.840
<v Speaker 3>thought of that that. You know, there's this idea of, well,

987
00:51:41.880 --> 00:51:43.880
<v Speaker 3>would they go to the trouble of moving his body.

988
00:51:44.119 --> 00:51:46.599
<v Speaker 3>Maybe they didn't, Maybe they beat him and he s

989
00:51:46.800 --> 00:51:49.000
<v Speaker 3>comes to his injuries after he himself gets into the

990
00:51:49.000 --> 00:51:49.679
<v Speaker 3>bin as well.

991
00:51:50.760 --> 00:51:52.840
<v Speaker 2>Remember when we discussed the Blair Adam's case. I think

992
00:51:52.880 --> 00:51:54.960
<v Speaker 2>that was one of the very earliest episodes we did

993
00:51:54.960 --> 00:51:56.440
<v Speaker 2>together on the Path with Chili.

994
00:51:57.400 --> 00:51:58.840
<v Speaker 1>I'm still obsessed with that case.

995
00:51:59.400 --> 00:52:02.480
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, it's just it's even more bizarre than Jack Wheeler's.

996
00:52:02.519 --> 00:52:04.800
<v Speaker 2>But when I remember when I watched Jack's case and

997
00:52:04.880 --> 00:52:08.199
<v Speaker 2>Unsow Mysteries, I instantly had flashbacks to the Blair Adams case,

998
00:52:08.199 --> 00:52:10.280
<v Speaker 2>and it was thinking what if he crossed paths with

999
00:52:10.320 --> 00:52:13.000
<v Speaker 2>someone who beat him so severely, a complete stranger he

1000
00:52:13.039 --> 00:52:15.719
<v Speaker 2>had no connection with, who decided to take advantage of

1001
00:52:15.800 --> 00:52:19.559
<v Speaker 2>him because of the way he was acting. Of course,

1002
00:52:19.599 --> 00:52:21.920
<v Speaker 2>whoever killed Blair Adams left him out in the open

1003
00:52:21.960 --> 00:52:24.800
<v Speaker 2>and had no concern about concealing his body, But which

1004
00:52:24.840 --> 00:52:27.559
<v Speaker 2>once again begs the question about why anyone would bother

1005
00:52:27.639 --> 00:52:31.199
<v Speaker 2>concealing Jack at a dumpster. But, like Ashley said, perhaps

1006
00:52:31.199 --> 00:52:34.280
<v Speaker 2>the ANSWER's lie somewhere in the middle. What if someone

1007
00:52:34.320 --> 00:52:36.920
<v Speaker 2>delivered a severe beating to Jack which was not fatal,

1008
00:52:37.199 --> 00:52:40.280
<v Speaker 2>and he subsequently crawled into the dumpster to nurse his injuries.

1009
00:52:40.920 --> 00:52:43.119
<v Speaker 2>For all we know, Jack could have died or passed

1010
00:52:43.119 --> 00:52:46.480
<v Speaker 2>out before the garbage truck arrived. In essence, maybe the

1011
00:52:46.519 --> 00:52:49.679
<v Speaker 2>trash compactor or a heart attack was the exact cause

1012
00:52:49.719 --> 00:52:52.519
<v Speaker 2>of Jack's death, but he still had noticeable injuries on

1013
00:52:52.599 --> 00:52:56.239
<v Speaker 2>him from a beating. Under normal circumstances, I would ordinarily

1014
00:52:56.239 --> 00:52:58.639
<v Speaker 2>go with the explanation that Jack's death was a tragic

1015
00:52:58.719 --> 00:53:02.199
<v Speaker 2>accident caused by being loaded into the garbage truck. But

1016
00:53:02.280 --> 00:53:04.159
<v Speaker 2>I have to reiterate that this isn't one of those

1017
00:53:04.199 --> 00:53:07.360
<v Speaker 2>cases in which the authorities have closed the investigation because

1018
00:53:07.360 --> 00:53:10.639
<v Speaker 2>they're confident that no foul play took place. They were

1019
00:53:10.679 --> 00:53:13.360
<v Speaker 2>the ones who classified Jack's death as a homicide and

1020
00:53:13.440 --> 00:53:15.960
<v Speaker 2>have given off the impression that they believe his injuries

1021
00:53:15.960 --> 00:53:19.159
<v Speaker 2>were consistent with a beating. But we have to harken

1022
00:53:19.199 --> 00:53:22.239
<v Speaker 2>back to the aforementioned theory that the medical examiner could

1023
00:53:22.239 --> 00:53:26.519
<v Speaker 2>have made his homicide ruling prematurely and misinterpreted Jack's injuries

1024
00:53:26.760 --> 00:53:29.440
<v Speaker 2>because he had not yet received any information to suggest

1025
00:53:29.559 --> 00:53:32.280
<v Speaker 2>that Jack had been in a dumpster and a garbage truck.

1026
00:53:32.920 --> 00:53:35.320
<v Speaker 2>It seemed like the initial impression was that someone had

1027
00:53:35.400 --> 00:53:38.400
<v Speaker 2>murdered Jack at another location and dumped his body at

1028
00:53:38.400 --> 00:53:40.360
<v Speaker 2>the landfill on their own accord.

1029
00:53:41.159 --> 00:53:45.239
<v Speaker 3>Which would absolutely justify the ruling that this was a beating,

1030
00:53:45.400 --> 00:53:47.079
<v Speaker 3>and then he was placed at the landfill.

1031
00:53:47.360 --> 00:53:48.599
<v Speaker 2>But then you have those.

1032
00:53:48.400 --> 00:53:53.360
<v Speaker 3>Fingerprints and evidence, biological evidence that Jack was in a

1033
00:53:53.400 --> 00:53:56.519
<v Speaker 3>trash bin that was then dumped and the trash truck

1034
00:53:56.920 --> 00:53:59.440
<v Speaker 3>that then took his body to the landfill. So once

1035
00:53:59.599 --> 00:54:02.320
<v Speaker 3>that's actor into play, like you said, it just opens

1036
00:54:02.400 --> 00:54:05.719
<v Speaker 3>up so many different scenarios of just how did he

1037
00:54:05.800 --> 00:54:08.320
<v Speaker 3>get there, how and what happened to him before he

1038
00:54:08.400 --> 00:54:10.840
<v Speaker 3>got into that bin? Was he alive? When he got

1039
00:54:10.880 --> 00:54:14.159
<v Speaker 3>into that bin, or the injuries because of the trash compactor,

1040
00:54:14.199 --> 00:54:16.440
<v Speaker 3>like all of those things become really overwhelming when you

1041
00:54:16.480 --> 00:54:21.000
<v Speaker 3>think about how many realities could exist here. But what

1042
00:54:21.199 --> 00:54:23.920
<v Speaker 3>is interesting I was kind of hard on the police earlier.

1043
00:54:23.960 --> 00:54:25.960
<v Speaker 3>This is like, why not just change the ruling then?

1044
00:54:26.599 --> 00:54:29.719
<v Speaker 3>But there has to be something where they say, listen,

1045
00:54:29.920 --> 00:54:33.159
<v Speaker 3>we need to have the ability, if and when a

1046
00:54:33.239 --> 00:54:36.360
<v Speaker 3>lead comes in that we can investigate this is a homicide.

1047
00:54:36.559 --> 00:54:38.480
<v Speaker 3>I don't want to tie our hands. I don't want

1048
00:54:38.480 --> 00:54:41.400
<v Speaker 3>to remove that as an option. So is it simply

1049
00:54:41.440 --> 00:54:44.400
<v Speaker 3>just the beating and the bodily injuries where they just

1050
00:54:44.440 --> 00:54:47.400
<v Speaker 3>don't think Jack could have been solo in this endeavor?

1051
00:54:48.199 --> 00:54:50.599
<v Speaker 3>Or is there something else, some other piece of evidence

1052
00:54:50.639 --> 00:54:53.199
<v Speaker 3>that they have they just haven't shared. It's a very

1053
00:54:53.199 --> 00:54:55.880
<v Speaker 3>interesting dilemma when you talk about it from the police perspective.

1054
00:54:56.519 --> 00:54:58.920
<v Speaker 1>They very easily could write it off as an accident

1055
00:54:59.000 --> 00:55:01.880
<v Speaker 1>and bring it to the medical examiner to have it reclassified.

1056
00:55:01.920 --> 00:55:04.079
<v Speaker 1>But I agree with you, there has to be something

1057
00:55:04.159 --> 00:55:07.480
<v Speaker 1>there that they're clinging onto that makes them truly believe

1058
00:55:07.559 --> 00:55:08.920
<v Speaker 1>that a homicide took place.

1059
00:55:09.800 --> 00:55:12.000
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, Like we saw that comment earlier from someone who

1060
00:55:12.079 --> 00:55:14.559
<v Speaker 2>had seen the autopsy photos and says these look like

1061
00:55:14.599 --> 00:55:16.800
<v Speaker 2>a beating. They don't look like someone who has injured

1062
00:55:16.840 --> 00:55:19.719
<v Speaker 2>in a trash compactor. But of course, because those photos

1063
00:55:19.719 --> 00:55:22.639
<v Speaker 2>have never been released publicly, we can't really judge for ourselves.

1064
00:55:24.199 --> 00:55:28.400
<v Speaker 1>Since Jack was such a high profile figure with government affiliations,

1065
00:55:28.800 --> 00:55:31.360
<v Speaker 1>there would be a reluctance to admit that the original

1066
00:55:31.440 --> 00:55:34.559
<v Speaker 1>ruling was wrong and acknowledge that there was no foul play.

1067
00:55:34.599 --> 00:55:37.199
<v Speaker 1>After all, I really hate to see this, but it's

1068
00:55:37.280 --> 00:55:39.760
<v Speaker 1>possible that the attitude may have been the result of

1069
00:55:39.800 --> 00:55:43.480
<v Speaker 1>the stigma which still surrounds mental illness. Since the guy

1070
00:55:43.519 --> 00:55:46.960
<v Speaker 1>who lived such an interesting, productive life, I think everyone

1071
00:55:47.000 --> 00:55:49.599
<v Speaker 1>who cared about Jack might have had a hard time

1072
00:55:49.639 --> 00:55:53.079
<v Speaker 1>reconciling the fact that his bipolar disorder caused him to

1073
00:55:53.119 --> 00:55:56.199
<v Speaker 1>spend the last three days of his life wandering around

1074
00:55:56.280 --> 00:55:59.559
<v Speaker 1>terrified and confused, and his death came about because he

1075
00:55:59.639 --> 00:56:02.760
<v Speaker 1>crawled to a dumpster to keep warm. It's easier to

1076
00:56:02.760 --> 00:56:05.199
<v Speaker 1>cling to the idea that Jack was murdered by someone

1077
00:56:05.239 --> 00:56:07.920
<v Speaker 1>who placed him in the dumpster, because then you have

1078
00:56:08.039 --> 00:56:11.239
<v Speaker 1>someone to blame. Losing a level one to issues that

1079
00:56:11.280 --> 00:56:14.719
<v Speaker 1>are related to mental illness is so much harder to process,

1080
00:56:15.000 --> 00:56:17.519
<v Speaker 1>especially when they spend the last moments of their life

1081
00:56:17.639 --> 00:56:20.760
<v Speaker 1>doing things which don't seem to make any rational sense.

1082
00:56:21.880 --> 00:56:25.360
<v Speaker 1>Since Ray Rivera was never officially diagnosed with anything, you

1083
00:56:25.360 --> 00:56:28.239
<v Speaker 1>can understand why his family would believe his death was

1084
00:56:28.280 --> 00:56:31.320
<v Speaker 1>a result of some sort of murder conspiracy rather than

1085
00:56:31.400 --> 00:56:34.559
<v Speaker 1>him deciding to jump off a roof. All that being said,

1086
00:56:34.679 --> 00:56:38.199
<v Speaker 1>we've not seen Jack Wheeler's autopsy report, and I assume

1087
00:56:38.239 --> 00:56:40.679
<v Speaker 1>there are a lot of key pieces of information that

1088
00:56:40.719 --> 00:56:44.599
<v Speaker 1>the authorities have never released publicly. If they legitimately have

1089
00:56:44.719 --> 00:56:46.960
<v Speaker 1>good reason to believe that Jack was a victim of

1090
00:56:46.960 --> 00:56:49.480
<v Speaker 1>foul play, we would be more than happy to be

1091
00:56:49.559 --> 00:56:51.599
<v Speaker 1>proven wrong by seeing an arrest someday.

1092
00:56:53.079 --> 00:56:55.679
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, this case is just really difficult. When you look

1093
00:56:55.719 --> 00:56:59.880
<v Speaker 3>at the idea that you have someone who was so

1094
00:57:00.119 --> 00:57:04.000
<v Speaker 3>successful and in those last moments you can tell he's

1095
00:57:04.000 --> 00:57:08.000
<v Speaker 3>in a mental health decline. It is heartbreaking. And when

1096
00:57:08.000 --> 00:57:10.920
<v Speaker 3>you think about this idea of you know, the case

1097
00:57:11.000 --> 00:57:13.719
<v Speaker 3>is still open. What happens if someday we can prove

1098
00:57:14.760 --> 00:57:18.039
<v Speaker 3>that someone had assaulted him. I think it'd be very

1099
00:57:18.039 --> 00:57:23.079
<v Speaker 3>difficult in trial to convict somebody of let's say, of

1100
00:57:23.280 --> 00:57:25.920
<v Speaker 3>a high degree of murder, because someone could say, yes,

1101
00:57:26.079 --> 00:57:28.880
<v Speaker 3>I got in an altercation with Jack, right like, or

1102
00:57:28.920 --> 00:57:31.639
<v Speaker 3>they could prove that someone had gotten into a fuss

1103
00:57:31.639 --> 00:57:35.039
<v Speaker 3>with him or assaulted him or attacked him, But it

1104
00:57:35.079 --> 00:57:39.400
<v Speaker 3>would be very difficult to prove when and how Jack

1105
00:57:39.519 --> 00:57:42.639
<v Speaker 3>died because if you said the assault was the cause

1106
00:57:42.679 --> 00:57:45.039
<v Speaker 3>of his death, you need to make sure that there's

1107
00:57:45.079 --> 00:57:47.480
<v Speaker 3>no way that that trash compactor could have actually ended

1108
00:57:47.480 --> 00:57:50.920
<v Speaker 3>his life, right, and that the assault was what killed him.

1109
00:57:51.000 --> 00:57:54.039
<v Speaker 3>So if the person eventually claimed, hey, he walked away

1110
00:57:54.039 --> 00:57:57.280
<v Speaker 3>from me after this fuss, yes he could be held

1111
00:57:57.679 --> 00:58:01.880
<v Speaker 3>accountable for the assault and eventual death, but the degree

1112
00:58:01.960 --> 00:58:04.400
<v Speaker 3>of charges against him would be so much lower if

1113
00:58:04.440 --> 00:58:07.519
<v Speaker 3>you couldn't disprove that something else could have happened to Jack,

1114
00:58:07.800 --> 00:58:09.840
<v Speaker 3>That Jack could have climbed into that band, that Jack

1115
00:58:09.880 --> 00:58:13.880
<v Speaker 3>could have been crushed by the compactor. So it's wild

1116
00:58:13.960 --> 00:58:18.320
<v Speaker 3>because if you're advocating for justice in this case, even

1117
00:58:18.440 --> 00:58:21.480
<v Speaker 3>that the court case would be so traumatic and difficult

1118
00:58:21.920 --> 00:58:25.000
<v Speaker 3>listening to different theories of who knows what really happened

1119
00:58:25.000 --> 00:58:27.519
<v Speaker 3>to Jack that night. It would be a very very

1120
00:58:27.559 --> 00:58:31.239
<v Speaker 3>interesting case. Even if we did come forward and had

1121
00:58:31.440 --> 00:58:36.199
<v Speaker 3>reliable evidence that an assault was part of this case, right,

1122
00:58:36.280 --> 00:58:39.719
<v Speaker 3>how do you prosecute it and prove that the assault

1123
00:58:39.760 --> 00:58:43.599
<v Speaker 3>caused his death. It's just tragic all the way around.

1124
00:58:43.679 --> 00:58:47.119
<v Speaker 3>It's tragic. Jack was such a good human being who

1125
00:58:47.199 --> 00:58:50.800
<v Speaker 3>worked so hard, and just the thought of the mental

1126
00:58:50.840 --> 00:58:54.320
<v Speaker 3>health decline makes you, It makes your heart just go

1127
00:58:54.400 --> 00:58:57.079
<v Speaker 3>out to him and think how sad that that's how

1128
00:58:57.079 --> 00:59:00.239
<v Speaker 3>his life ended, when he had done so much to

1129
00:59:00.239 --> 00:59:02.760
<v Speaker 3>give back to people and to make sure others didn't hurt.

1130
00:59:02.800 --> 00:59:05.599
<v Speaker 3>He died hurting in some way, whether it was mental

1131
00:59:05.719 --> 00:59:06.599
<v Speaker 3>or physical or both.

1132
00:59:07.719 --> 00:59:09.519
<v Speaker 2>I do agree. I think it would be hard to

1133
00:59:09.559 --> 00:59:12.440
<v Speaker 2>get a murder conviction if they arrested a suspect of

1134
00:59:12.440 --> 00:59:14.920
<v Speaker 2>being able to prove whether or not a beating could

1135
00:59:14.960 --> 00:59:17.239
<v Speaker 2>have caused Jack's injuries, or if they were caused by

1136
00:59:17.280 --> 00:59:19.880
<v Speaker 2>the trash compactor. But at the same time, I think

1137
00:59:19.880 --> 00:59:22.039
<v Speaker 2>it would still provide a lot of validation from the

1138
00:59:22.039 --> 00:59:24.199
<v Speaker 2>family if they can find someone and get them to

1139
00:59:24.280 --> 00:59:27.679
<v Speaker 2>admit or prove that they beat Jack, because then they

1140
00:59:27.679 --> 00:59:29.840
<v Speaker 2>can know that, hey, he didn't just wander around and

1141
00:59:29.960 --> 00:59:31.760
<v Speaker 2>die in his own We at least have someone that

1142
00:59:31.800 --> 00:59:33.920
<v Speaker 2>we can hold responsible for his death, and we can

1143
00:59:33.960 --> 00:59:37.280
<v Speaker 2>officially call his death a homicide rather than just him

1144
00:59:37.360 --> 00:59:39.920
<v Speaker 2>dying lonely and alone of like a heart attack or

1145
00:59:39.920 --> 00:59:43.280
<v Speaker 2>something inside a dumpsters, so at least that would give them,

1146
00:59:43.320 --> 00:59:47.320
<v Speaker 2>I think, some sort of closure. However, I do find

1147
00:59:47.320 --> 00:59:49.559
<v Speaker 2>it encouraging that ever since the release of the Unsolved

1148
00:59:49.559 --> 00:59:52.840
<v Speaker 2>Mysteries episode, most of the online discussions I've seen about

1149
00:59:52.840 --> 00:59:55.119
<v Speaker 2>this case have focused more on the issue of mental

1150
00:59:55.159 --> 00:59:59.000
<v Speaker 2>health rather than over the top conspiracy theories. For many

1151
00:59:59.000 --> 01:00:02.000
<v Speaker 2>cold cases, the opposite is true, So I'm taking this

1152
01:00:02.039 --> 01:00:04.400
<v Speaker 2>as a sign that people are opening to considering and

1153
01:00:04.480 --> 01:00:07.400
<v Speaker 2>discussing mental health issues, so there's less of a stigma

1154
01:00:07.400 --> 01:00:10.360
<v Speaker 2>attached to it. Regardless of whether his death was an

1155
01:00:10.400 --> 01:00:13.840
<v Speaker 2>accident or murder, Jack Wheeler deserves to be best remembered

1156
01:00:13.840 --> 01:00:16.079
<v Speaker 2>for the many things he achieved in life, such as

1157
01:00:16.119 --> 01:00:19.679
<v Speaker 2>the Vietnam Veterans Memorial, rather than the circumstances of how

1158
01:00:19.679 --> 01:00:22.480
<v Speaker 2>he died. But if you happen to have any information

1159
01:00:22.519 --> 01:00:25.599
<v Speaker 2>about the death of Jack Wheeler which points towards a homicide,

1160
01:00:25.920 --> 01:00:30.360
<v Speaker 2>please contact Delaware Crime Stoppers at one eight hundred tip

1161
01:00:30.599 --> 01:00:34.000
<v Speaker 2>three three three three. That's one eight hundred eight four

1162
01:00:34.039 --> 01:00:37.440
<v Speaker 2>seven three three three three, or you can submit a

1163
01:00:37.440 --> 01:00:42.519
<v Speaker 2>tip through their website at Delaware crimestoppers dot com. Jules Ashley,

1164
01:00:42.599 --> 01:00:44.000
<v Speaker 2>any final thoughts in this case.

1165
01:00:45.039 --> 01:00:46.800
<v Speaker 3>I think this is one of those cases that really

1166
01:00:46.840 --> 01:00:49.480
<v Speaker 3>does make you step back and pause and think about

1167
01:00:49.480 --> 01:00:52.119
<v Speaker 3>how blessed we are that the conversation is changing. Robin,

1168
01:00:52.199 --> 01:00:54.360
<v Speaker 3>you just said it, like, is it getting better where

1169
01:00:54.360 --> 01:00:58.000
<v Speaker 3>we're able to talk openly about mental health struggles and

1170
01:00:58.360 --> 01:01:01.000
<v Speaker 3>what can that do for people? Well, you know, there's

1171
01:01:01.320 --> 01:01:03.840
<v Speaker 3>a famous quote that kind of references this idea that

1172
01:01:03.880 --> 01:01:06.320
<v Speaker 3>the people that do the most good around them and

1173
01:01:06.360 --> 01:01:09.840
<v Speaker 3>are trying to help other people not struggle are people

1174
01:01:09.880 --> 01:01:12.960
<v Speaker 3>who know struggle the most and know hurt the most,

1175
01:01:13.119 --> 01:01:15.039
<v Speaker 3>and they just don't want other people to feel the

1176
01:01:15.079 --> 01:01:18.639
<v Speaker 3>way they feel. You see that in Jack. You see

1177
01:01:18.679 --> 01:01:23.920
<v Speaker 3>a hero who served our country, who protected dignitaries, who

1178
01:01:24.239 --> 01:01:27.159
<v Speaker 3>stood next to Ronald Reagan as a memorial gets unveiled

1179
01:01:27.360 --> 01:01:29.960
<v Speaker 3>that Jack played a big role in. I mean, these

1180
01:01:29.960 --> 01:01:35.800
<v Speaker 3>are amazing, powerful things, and yet his wife takes you

1181
01:01:36.039 --> 01:01:40.079
<v Speaker 3>into their reality behind the scenes and says, look at

1182
01:01:40.119 --> 01:01:42.760
<v Speaker 3>all the magic my husband did, Look at all the

1183
01:01:42.800 --> 01:01:46.239
<v Speaker 3>good he did, And yet when he laid his head down,

1184
01:01:46.280 --> 01:01:48.519
<v Speaker 3>there were such dark demons and they were waiting for

1185
01:01:48.639 --> 01:01:51.320
<v Speaker 3>him when he woke up. I think he hated himself.

1186
01:01:52.320 --> 01:01:56.599
<v Speaker 3>It's heavy, and it's a reality that this is not abnormal.

1187
01:01:57.119 --> 01:01:59.760
<v Speaker 3>So many people we love and care about are struggling

1188
01:01:59.760 --> 01:02:03.880
<v Speaker 3>with ease, mental health issues. They're struggling with the darkness

1189
01:02:03.920 --> 01:02:06.079
<v Speaker 3>and the demons that take over and are much louder

1190
01:02:06.119 --> 01:02:09.800
<v Speaker 3>than the reality sometimes. And so it is that reminder

1191
01:02:09.880 --> 01:02:13.480
<v Speaker 3>to reach out to people, to be open to people,

1192
01:02:13.639 --> 01:02:17.440
<v Speaker 3>to be understanding of what individuals are going through. And

1193
01:02:17.480 --> 01:02:19.559
<v Speaker 3>you saw people do the right thing in this case

1194
01:02:19.840 --> 01:02:22.679
<v Speaker 3>when they saw someone struggling. They said, something's wrong. Let

1195
01:02:22.679 --> 01:02:24.800
<v Speaker 3>me get my supervisor to come talk to this man.

1196
01:02:25.079 --> 01:02:27.400
<v Speaker 3>Something's wrong. Let me see if we can help this man.

1197
01:02:27.800 --> 01:02:30.000
<v Speaker 3>Something's wrong. Let me call him a cap so he

1198
01:02:30.039 --> 01:02:33.400
<v Speaker 3>doesn't get in a car with some stranger. People really

1199
01:02:33.440 --> 01:02:36.719
<v Speaker 3>were trying to intervene. And I think as time goes on,

1200
01:02:36.800 --> 01:02:40.039
<v Speaker 3>you'll start to see more and more education and access

1201
01:02:40.599 --> 01:02:43.960
<v Speaker 3>to help for people with mental health issues. But it's

1202
01:02:43.960 --> 01:02:48.360
<v Speaker 3>just it's tragic because he dedicated his whole life to

1203
01:02:48.440 --> 01:02:51.920
<v Speaker 3>serving our country, to making other people feel safer and

1204
01:02:52.039 --> 01:02:55.360
<v Speaker 3>happier and to give people peace, and he couldn't find

1205
01:02:55.360 --> 01:02:58.679
<v Speaker 3>it himself. My heart breaks for Catherine, who had things

1206
01:02:58.719 --> 01:03:01.199
<v Speaker 3>before his death that were overly traumatic.

1207
01:03:01.239 --> 01:03:01.639
<v Speaker 1>For her.

1208
01:03:02.079 --> 01:03:05.239
<v Speaker 3>She had issues after his death with her own family

1209
01:03:05.360 --> 01:03:09.280
<v Speaker 3>and being estranged from them. So my prayer would just be,

1210
01:03:09.440 --> 01:03:12.000
<v Speaker 3>like you said, Robin, maybe there's not a criminal case

1211
01:03:12.039 --> 01:03:14.880
<v Speaker 3>that can be brought forward, but maybe just answers so

1212
01:03:14.960 --> 01:03:17.960
<v Speaker 3>that there's less question marks for Catherine and her family

1213
01:03:18.440 --> 01:03:20.440
<v Speaker 3>would be really powerful. But it gives me hope. It

1214
01:03:20.440 --> 01:03:22.639
<v Speaker 3>gives me hope that you don't look at somebody and

1215
01:03:22.679 --> 01:03:25.320
<v Speaker 3>judge a book by the cover. People that are incredibly successful,

1216
01:03:25.360 --> 01:03:27.800
<v Speaker 3>people that seem to have it all together, people that

1217
01:03:27.880 --> 01:03:31.360
<v Speaker 3>seem the happiest. Sometimes they're doing that because they're trying

1218
01:03:31.400 --> 01:03:34.599
<v Speaker 3>to mask the darkness that's behind that joy. And so

1219
01:03:35.440 --> 01:03:37.760
<v Speaker 3>we're getting better at that. We're getting better at saying

1220
01:03:38.280 --> 01:03:42.480
<v Speaker 3>pay attention. Right, there's warning signs. And Catherine knew it best.

1221
01:03:42.480 --> 01:03:44.840
<v Speaker 3>She said, he's a great man, but mann does he

1222
01:03:44.920 --> 01:03:45.719
<v Speaker 3>hate himself?

1223
01:03:45.760 --> 01:03:47.199
<v Speaker 2>Like I know her.

1224
01:03:47.400 --> 01:03:49.440
<v Speaker 3>Her dying wish would be if Jack could feel the

1225
01:03:49.480 --> 01:03:52.559
<v Speaker 3>way he makes me feel, if he could see the

1226
01:03:52.599 --> 01:03:54.679
<v Speaker 3>man that I see, if he could just be free

1227
01:03:54.679 --> 01:03:57.760
<v Speaker 3>from the darkness that plagues him, right, that's what she

1228
01:03:57.920 --> 01:04:01.239
<v Speaker 3>wanted as his spouse. Actually, it seems like that actually

1229
01:04:01.239 --> 01:04:05.760
<v Speaker 3>took his life. It's a pitiful tragic case. It's heartbreaking,

1230
01:04:05.800 --> 01:04:09.039
<v Speaker 3>but it's also really inspiring that we are making changes

1231
01:04:09.039 --> 01:04:11.519
<v Speaker 3>and that we are trying to become more and more

1232
01:04:11.559 --> 01:04:14.880
<v Speaker 3>aware of how we prevent more cases like Jack's, where

1233
01:04:14.920 --> 01:04:17.599
<v Speaker 3>people fall through the cracks because of their mental health.

1234
01:04:18.559 --> 01:04:21.719
<v Speaker 1>That insight from Catherine that you just referenced really hit

1235
01:04:21.760 --> 01:04:23.599
<v Speaker 1>me in the gut when I heard it, because there

1236
01:04:23.639 --> 01:04:27.360
<v Speaker 1>can be so much shame and so much pain that

1237
01:04:27.400 --> 01:04:31.280
<v Speaker 1>can be associated not only with dealing with a mental illness,

1238
01:04:31.320 --> 01:04:35.800
<v Speaker 1>but dealing with society's view of that mental illness, and

1239
01:04:36.400 --> 01:04:38.800
<v Speaker 1>just as actually just reference we've talked about throughout the

1240
01:04:38.800 --> 01:04:41.920
<v Speaker 1>conversation is changing, and I think since we first started

1241
01:04:41.960 --> 01:04:44.119
<v Speaker 1>our podcast to where we are now, I think there's

1242
01:04:44.119 --> 01:04:46.280
<v Speaker 1>been a huge shift. So I'm really excited to see

1243
01:04:46.320 --> 01:04:49.280
<v Speaker 1>where we're at in ten years. But with what Jack

1244
01:04:49.400 --> 01:04:52.840
<v Speaker 1>was dealing with, I just my heart just breaks because

1245
01:04:52.920 --> 01:04:55.000
<v Speaker 1>I don't know what happened here. There's any number of

1246
01:04:55.039 --> 01:04:57.519
<v Speaker 1>possibilities that could have happened. It could have been from

1247
01:04:57.519 --> 01:05:00.239
<v Speaker 1>the trash compactor, it could have been homicide. I really

1248
01:05:00.239 --> 01:05:03.079
<v Speaker 1>don't have any insight because I don't know who he

1249
01:05:03.119 --> 01:05:06.079
<v Speaker 1>could have potentially met and exactly the state that he

1250
01:05:06.199 --> 01:05:09.119
<v Speaker 1>was in it's anybody's guest at this stage. The fact

1251
01:05:09.159 --> 01:05:12.199
<v Speaker 1>that law enforcement seems very hell bent on holding on

1252
01:05:12.320 --> 01:05:15.920
<v Speaker 1>to the homicide determination made by the original medical examiner,

1253
01:05:16.239 --> 01:05:18.199
<v Speaker 1>that leads me to believe that there could just be

1254
01:05:18.239 --> 01:05:20.920
<v Speaker 1>something there that we're not aware of, that they aren't releasing,

1255
01:05:21.039 --> 01:05:23.920
<v Speaker 1>and they're keeping close to the vest so that if

1256
01:05:23.960 --> 01:05:27.159
<v Speaker 1>they do have a suspect, or if they do question somebody,

1257
01:05:27.199 --> 01:05:30.599
<v Speaker 1>that it might be knowledge that only that person would have.

1258
01:05:31.440 --> 01:05:34.000
<v Speaker 1>But it breaks my heart seeing that this man went

1259
01:05:34.039 --> 01:05:37.199
<v Speaker 1>through what seems to be hell over this three day period,

1260
01:05:37.400 --> 01:05:41.880
<v Speaker 1>becoming disoriented, doing these strange acts like the smoke bombs,

1261
01:05:41.880 --> 01:05:44.679
<v Speaker 1>and leaving behind his phone, and seeming like some of

1262
01:05:44.719 --> 01:05:47.000
<v Speaker 1>the actions like I think Robin had pointed out that

1263
01:05:47.280 --> 01:05:49.480
<v Speaker 1>they could have been logical, and that he was looking

1264
01:05:49.519 --> 01:05:51.239
<v Speaker 1>to go to a law firm because he thought there

1265
01:05:51.280 --> 01:05:55.079
<v Speaker 1>could be legal ramifications for the smoke bomb incident. So

1266
01:05:55.119 --> 01:05:58.159
<v Speaker 1>he went to Connolly, But he didn't have his full

1267
01:05:58.320 --> 01:06:00.519
<v Speaker 1>frame of mind to be able to know that that

1268
01:06:00.719 --> 01:06:03.559
<v Speaker 1>was in his lawyer's office and this wasn't the right Connolly.

1269
01:06:03.880 --> 01:06:06.119
<v Speaker 1>So you see him making some choices. It seemed to

1270
01:06:06.159 --> 01:06:08.920
<v Speaker 1>be grounded in some kind of logic, but he's just

1271
01:06:08.960 --> 01:06:11.360
<v Speaker 1>not fully there and we're not aware if he's sleeping

1272
01:06:11.440 --> 01:06:15.760
<v Speaker 1>or not. It's so so tragic that I really hope

1273
01:06:15.840 --> 01:06:18.559
<v Speaker 1>that we continue to grow as a society and as

1274
01:06:18.559 --> 01:06:22.960
<v Speaker 1>a culture that consumes true crime towards this space of

1275
01:06:23.719 --> 01:06:28.280
<v Speaker 1>you know, increased empathy and increased compassion towards victims, And

1276
01:06:28.679 --> 01:06:30.960
<v Speaker 1>like Ashley just said, it gives me great hope that

1277
01:06:31.000 --> 01:06:32.519
<v Speaker 1>we are moving in that direction.

1278
01:06:34.159 --> 01:06:36.760
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. I mentioned earlier that before I watched the Unsolved

1279
01:06:36.760 --> 01:06:39.760
<v Speaker 2>Mysteries episode, I had limited knowledge of the Jack Wheeler case,

1280
01:06:39.840 --> 01:06:42.199
<v Speaker 2>but from what I did know, I mostly had come

1281
01:06:42.239 --> 01:06:44.960
<v Speaker 2>across conspiracy theories, and they were making it sound like

1282
01:06:45.400 --> 01:06:47.920
<v Speaker 2>he was working in the government and he knew stuff

1283
01:06:47.920 --> 01:06:49.800
<v Speaker 2>that he should have and his life was in age

1284
01:06:49.840 --> 01:06:52.679
<v Speaker 2>or so someone sent an assassin to kill him. So

1285
01:06:52.760 --> 01:06:55.360
<v Speaker 2>then when I watched the Unsolve Mysteries episode, I was like, Wow,

1286
01:06:55.440 --> 01:06:57.880
<v Speaker 2>this story is nothing like this at all. And I'm

1287
01:06:57.880 --> 01:07:00.400
<v Speaker 2>thinking to myself, if this story had been covered something

1288
01:07:00.440 --> 01:07:02.880
<v Speaker 2>like ten twenty years ago, they probably would have gone

1289
01:07:02.920 --> 01:07:06.360
<v Speaker 2>all in on the conspiracy theories and barely even acknowledged

1290
01:07:06.360 --> 01:07:09.599
<v Speaker 2>his struggles with bipolar disorder, and people would be looking

1291
01:07:09.639 --> 01:07:11.880
<v Speaker 2>at this case with a different light. But it is

1292
01:07:11.920 --> 01:07:14.119
<v Speaker 2>good to know that in recent years people have been

1293
01:07:14.159 --> 01:07:17.760
<v Speaker 2>focusing more on mental health and they realized that regardless

1294
01:07:17.760 --> 01:07:20.519
<v Speaker 2>of whether Jack was murdered or his death was an accident,

1295
01:07:20.679 --> 01:07:23.000
<v Speaker 2>mental health did play a big role in what happened

1296
01:07:23.000 --> 01:07:25.519
<v Speaker 2>to him. That his strange behavior was not because he

1297
01:07:25.599 --> 01:07:27.599
<v Speaker 2>was being followed or tracked. He may have thought in

1298
01:07:27.639 --> 01:07:30.119
<v Speaker 2>his own mind that someone was following him and trying

1299
01:07:30.159 --> 01:07:32.880
<v Speaker 2>to kill him, but the evidence in the video surveillance

1300
01:07:32.880 --> 01:07:35.800
<v Speaker 2>footage go against that. And I do believe that if

1301
01:07:35.840 --> 01:07:38.239
<v Speaker 2>he was murdered, then the only explanation is that he

1302
01:07:38.360 --> 01:07:41.760
<v Speaker 2>crossed paths with a stranger and perhaps tried to start

1303
01:07:41.800 --> 01:07:44.480
<v Speaker 2>a confrontation with them, or this person took advantage to

1304
01:07:44.559 --> 01:07:47.239
<v Speaker 2>Jack because he was vulnerable, and they gave him a

1305
01:07:47.280 --> 01:07:50.039
<v Speaker 2>severe beating which played some sort of role in his death.

1306
01:07:50.599 --> 01:07:52.199
<v Speaker 2>I mean, it is tempting to think that this was

1307
01:07:52.239 --> 01:07:54.599
<v Speaker 2>nothing more than an accident, and I can understand the

1308
01:07:54.639 --> 01:07:57.400
<v Speaker 2>frustration from the family because if it was an accident

1309
01:07:57.480 --> 01:07:59.920
<v Speaker 2>and there was no one else around and no other witnesses,

1310
01:08:00.280 --> 01:08:02.199
<v Speaker 2>then there's no way they can ever know for sure.

1311
01:08:02.400 --> 01:08:04.920
<v Speaker 2>But if it was a homicide, then at least they

1312
01:08:04.960 --> 01:08:08.199
<v Speaker 2>can find a suspect and possibly learn the full truth.

1313
01:08:08.760 --> 01:08:12.559
<v Speaker 2>But like we said, police officially ruled a homicide and

1314
01:08:12.800 --> 01:08:15.159
<v Speaker 2>they have kept this ruling for the past thirteen and

1315
01:08:15.159 --> 01:08:17.640
<v Speaker 2>a half years, so they must have information to make

1316
01:08:17.680 --> 01:08:20.000
<v Speaker 2>them not want to change the cause of death and

1317
01:08:20.119 --> 01:08:23.439
<v Speaker 2>still actively investigate this. But they're being pretty tight lipped

1318
01:08:23.439 --> 01:08:25.840
<v Speaker 2>about this, so we don't really know where the investigation

1319
01:08:25.960 --> 01:08:28.720
<v Speaker 2>is at at this at some point, but fingers crossed,

1320
01:08:28.720 --> 01:08:30.960
<v Speaker 2>if this was a homicide, maybe one of these days

1321
01:08:31.000 --> 01:08:33.279
<v Speaker 2>we will see and rest and finally learn the full

1322
01:08:33.359 --> 01:08:35.000
<v Speaker 2>explanation for how Jack died.

1323
01:08:37.039 --> 01:08:38.520
<v Speaker 4>Robin, do you want to tell us a little bit

1324
01:08:38.520 --> 01:08:40.039
<v Speaker 4>about the trailment Cold Patreon.

1325
01:08:40.760 --> 01:08:43.119
<v Speaker 2>Yes, the Trail Cold Patreon has been around for three

1326
01:08:43.199 --> 01:08:46.920
<v Speaker 2>years now, and we offer these standard bonus features like

1327
01:08:47.039 --> 01:08:50.399
<v Speaker 2>early ad free episodes, and I also send out stickers

1328
01:08:50.439 --> 01:08:53.279
<v Speaker 2>and sign thank you cards to anyone who signs up

1329
01:08:53.279 --> 01:08:55.920
<v Speaker 2>with us on Patreon. If you join our five dollars

1330
01:08:55.920 --> 01:09:00.279
<v Speaker 2>tier tier two, we also offer monthly bonus episodes which

1331
01:09:00.319 --> 01:09:03.319
<v Speaker 2>I talk about cases which are not featured on the

1332
01:09:03.399 --> 01:09:06.520
<v Speaker 2>Trail Went Cold's original feed, so they're exclusive to Patreon,

1333
01:09:06.840 --> 01:09:09.359
<v Speaker 2>and if you join our highest tier tier three, the

1334
01:09:09.399 --> 01:09:12.319
<v Speaker 2>ten dollars Tier one of the features we offer is

1335
01:09:12.359 --> 01:09:16.680
<v Speaker 2>a audio commentary track over classic episodes of Unsawd Mysteries,

1336
01:09:16.920 --> 01:09:19.880
<v Speaker 2>where you can download an audio file and then boot

1337
01:09:19.960 --> 01:09:23.199
<v Speaker 2>up the original Unsolved Mysteries episode on Amazon Prime or

1338
01:09:23.199 --> 01:09:26.600
<v Speaker 2>YouTube and play it with my audio commentary playing in

1339
01:09:26.640 --> 01:09:29.760
<v Speaker 2>the background, where I just provide trivia and factoids about

1340
01:09:29.760 --> 01:09:33.199
<v Speaker 2>the cases featured in this episode. And incidentally, the very

1341
01:09:33.239 --> 01:09:36.079
<v Speaker 2>first episode that I did a commentary track over was

1342
01:09:36.079 --> 01:09:38.880
<v Speaker 2>the episode featuring this case. So if you want to

1343
01:09:38.920 --> 01:09:41.640
<v Speaker 2>download a commentary track in which I make more smart

1344
01:09:41.640 --> 01:09:44.680
<v Speaker 2>ass remarks about Jewel Kaylor, then be sure to join

1345
01:09:44.760 --> 01:09:45.479
<v Speaker 2>Tier three.

1346
01:09:45.680 --> 01:09:47.199
<v Speaker 4>So I want to let you know a little bit

1347
01:09:47.199 --> 01:09:50.159
<v Speaker 4>about the Jewels and Nashty patreons. So there's early ad

1348
01:09:50.199 --> 01:09:53.079
<v Speaker 4>free episodes of The Path Went Chili. We've got our

1349
01:09:53.079 --> 01:09:55.920
<v Speaker 4>Path Went Chili mini's, which are always over an hour,

1350
01:09:56.039 --> 01:09:58.159
<v Speaker 4>so they're not very mini, but they're just too short

1351
01:09:58.199 --> 01:10:01.800
<v Speaker 4>to turn into a series. Enjoying doing those, so we

1352
01:10:01.840 --> 01:10:04.119
<v Speaker 4>hope you'll check out those patreons will link them in

1353
01:10:04.199 --> 01:10:04.920
<v Speaker 4>the show notes.

1354
01:10:05.439 --> 01:10:07.359
<v Speaker 2>So I want to thank you all for listening, and

1355
01:10:07.479 --> 01:10:09.840
<v Speaker 2>any chance you have to share us on social media

1356
01:10:09.880 --> 01:10:12.880
<v Speaker 2>with a friend or to rate and review is greatly appreciated.

1357
01:10:13.000 --> 01:10:16.079
<v Speaker 2>You can email us at the Pathwentchili at gmail dot com.

1358
01:10:16.319 --> 01:10:18.960
<v Speaker 2>You can reach us on Twitter at the pathwin. So

1359
01:10:19.079 --> 01:10:21.720
<v Speaker 2>until next time, be sure to bundle up because cold

1360
01:10:21.720 --> 01:10:24.199
<v Speaker 2>trails and chili pass call for warm clothing.

1361
01:10:24.399 --> 01:10:27.560
<v Speaker 1>Music by Paul Rich from the podcast Cold Callers Comedy