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<v Speaker 1>So speaking of people using their religion to make laws,

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<v Speaker 1>he may have recalled that. Last year, Roe v. Wade

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<v Speaker 1>was overturned due in large part to the continued action

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<v Speaker 1>of the religious right in America. And since that happened,

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<v Speaker 1>some groups have been working to reverse the reversal, and

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<v Speaker 1>that group includes the Satanic Temple. You may know them

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<v Speaker 1>from their fights to put statues of Baphamit outside of

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<v Speaker 1>government buildings. They are arguing that this decision violates their

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<v Speaker 1>religious freedom. They say that abortion rights are part of

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<v Speaker 1>their fundamental tenets of their religion, specifically that one's body

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<v Speaker 1>is inviolable, subject to ones will alone. So they've filed

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<v Speaker 1>lawsuits and a bunch of states Indiana, Idaho, among others.

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<v Speaker 1>Lucian Greeves, the co founder of the Satanic Temple, is

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<v Speaker 1>basically saying that he has to fight the system from

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<v Speaker 1>within this and that's how the kind of strategy he's taking.

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<v Speaker 1>He says in the article that we have to play

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<v Speaker 1>the long game. You know, Christians, they spent generations doing

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<v Speaker 1>this and so that's the strategist taking. So I'm curious

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<v Speaker 1>what you think, Cindy as to like, well they be successful.

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<v Speaker 1>Do you think that this is the best way to

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<v Speaker 1>about it.

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<v Speaker 2>I don't know.

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<v Speaker 3>I don't know. As I said just before we started

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<v Speaker 3>the show, Friends is in the process right now of

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<v Speaker 3>giving the right to an abortion and writing it down

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<v Speaker 3>in the Constitution, which is pretty great. But I wanted

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<v Speaker 3>to specifically talk about a part of the article, and

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<v Speaker 3>it talks about a group called Sovereign Citizens. It's a

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<v Speaker 3>loose group of Americans who do not believe they are

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<v Speaker 3>under the jurisdiction of the federal government and I'm not

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<v Speaker 3>subject to US law. And so I studied a little

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<v Speaker 3>bit this group. I went to their website and their

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<v Speaker 3>I hesitated between crazy and interesting group. In late twenty

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<v Speaker 3>twenty one, Grieves received a message from that group. They've

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<v Speaker 3>informed him that he was to be deported from the

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<v Speaker 3>US despite being a US citizen, And after finding a

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<v Speaker 3>zumlink for a Sovereign Citizen Assembly meeting, Griefs crashed the

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<v Speaker 3>meeting and as a consequence, they put one hundred thousand

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<v Speaker 3>dollars bounty on his head. So I went to their

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<v Speaker 3>website and the page detailing the bounty is still here.

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<v Speaker 3>You can go right now and read it. And so

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<v Speaker 3>let me just read you a tiny bit of it.

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<v Speaker 3>So it says on Monday, two hundred and seventy sixth

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<v Speaker 3>day of the year of yeahweh sixy twenty three at

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<v Speaker 3>seven twenty to you city minus six or around, and

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<v Speaker 3>that already tells you a lot about them. Are younger creationists, Christians, etc.

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<v Speaker 3>Douglass Messner attempted a quidita by striving to hijack the

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<v Speaker 3>National Assembly for the Government of the United States of America,

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<v Speaker 3>which they think they are in the capacity as General

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<v Speaker 3>Postmaster of the original General post Office of seventeen seventy five.

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<v Speaker 3>All members were throwing threats with the intent to place

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<v Speaker 3>fear into the American nationals so they would back away

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<v Speaker 3>from their official duties and hand the government over the

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<v Speaker 3>terrorist organization. So, yeah, they're classified as a terrorist group

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<v Speaker 3>by the ABI, but yeah, the bounty is still here.

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<v Speaker 3>So Grieves had to move secretly. And so we were

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<v Speaker 3>talking earlier about beliefs led by religious beliefs. That's what

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<v Speaker 3>we get. Ellen. Did you want to add something.

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<v Speaker 4>Yeah, yeah, So since June, I've had a lot of

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<v Speaker 4>anxiety about the repercussions of Robbie Way being turned over.

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<v Speaker 4>I did work with recovering from religion to get resources

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<v Speaker 4>together for people to get access to portraiture or have

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<v Speaker 4>their anxieties and questions answered, which GAVEE me some thing

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<v Speaker 4>to do about it. The fact that Lucian Greece is

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<v Speaker 4>doing something on the other side where he's actually trying

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<v Speaker 4>to fight the law against the religious right want to

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<v Speaker 4>take people's rights away, and this is just the beginning

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<v Speaker 4>of what a reblical harm.

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<v Speaker 2>This can cause a long run.

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<v Speaker 4>But the fact that he's fighting against and has actually

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<v Speaker 4>given me courage.

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<v Speaker 2>I do appreciate.

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<v Speaker 4>Hoving expressed his frustrations about how the people at the

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<v Speaker 4>Satanic and Temple, including himself, are focused on the right

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<v Speaker 4>things versus the people that their detractors are focusing on

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<v Speaker 4>the wrong thing. They're focusing on the fact that they

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<v Speaker 4>use satan as a symbols, and Lucian Grieves even said

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<v Speaker 4>this gets to be really tedious because I think people

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<v Speaker 4>are terribly invested in the outcome of the Satanics Temple's lawsuits.

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<v Speaker 2>Because they just see the theatrics of it.

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<v Speaker 4>They're not really paying attention of what they're actually trying

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<v Speaker 4>to do because they're trying to tech freedoms for everybody

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<v Speaker 4>through the separation of church and state, and that also

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<v Speaker 4>includes religious freedom.

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<v Speaker 2>And I think.

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<v Speaker 4>Though I love what they're doing, the image, the image

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<v Speaker 4>of the temple is bearing the message of what they're

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<v Speaker 4>going to do. And Greaves mentioned in the article about

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<v Speaker 4>the danger in the stress he has felt as the

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<v Speaker 4>face of the Satanic Temple, he is constantly fighting an

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<v Speaker 4>uphill battle. I'm really excited because I get to meet

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<v Speaker 4>him at free Flow next month, so when I go,

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<v Speaker 4>so I'm actually very excited about it, and I want

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<v Speaker 4>to talk to him a little bit more about that

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<v Speaker 4>in the future. And the Satanic Temple to me, is

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<v Speaker 4>an example of a microcosm a secularist fighting for soe

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<v Speaker 4>rates and free expression in a country that actively pushes

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<v Speaker 4>against those ideas. And since the religious right has infected

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<v Speaker 4>the highest cord in the land, it is even more

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<v Speaker 4>imperative that secular groups fight to restore what the majority

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<v Speaker 4>of Americans want and we and I think that is

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<v Speaker 4>where the focus should be rather I and but I

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<v Speaker 4>really appreciate that they're willing to, you know, kind of

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<v Speaker 4>fight the hard fight, because they are really fighting for

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<v Speaker 4>this separation and using their advocacy and using sedan a

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<v Speaker 4>symbol of rebelling, which I love. But again, as he said, people,

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<v Speaker 4>So Cynthia, what do you think, honey who ail?

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<v Speaker 5>I think that unfortunately the message gets lost in the

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<v Speaker 5>sauce because of the whole symbolism utilizing batha metal batha

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<v Speaker 5>met as their symbol. Right, you have the head of

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<v Speaker 5>a golt in a man's torso with the goat the

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<v Speaker 5>goat portion at the bottom, and then instantly, especially with

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<v Speaker 5>people who happen to be extremely like Christian or theistic

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<v Speaker 5>leaning and also on the right, get triggered by the symbol,

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<v Speaker 5>but completely loses the messaging behind why we're using the

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<v Speaker 5>symbol in the first place. You know, I think that

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<v Speaker 5>I mentioned on a podcast in the past, like do

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<v Speaker 5>you understand that if you are a Christian? And I

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<v Speaker 5>lived as a Christian for almost forty years of my life,

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<v Speaker 5>so I get it that you actually display when you

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<v Speaker 5>display across you are displaying the capital punishment of your

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<v Speaker 5>Lord and savior Jesus Christ. I mean, do you understand

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<v Speaker 5>that and do you really think that that is okay?

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<v Speaker 5>Like would you, like say, for instance, if your mother

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<v Speaker 5>or your father was like gone through capital punishment, would

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<v Speaker 5>you actually use a symbol of that say that you

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<v Speaker 5>love your mother and father. I don't so that and

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<v Speaker 5>of itself is an issue that you know, one has

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<v Speaker 5>to actually go through when they are looking at symbols, iconography,

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<v Speaker 5>things of that nature. But I but one of the

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<v Speaker 5>things that I do applaud is their particular advocacy when

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<v Speaker 5>it comes to what they're doing in order for them

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<v Speaker 5>to try to get back into really talking about separation

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<v Speaker 5>of church state. And you know, and one of the

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<v Speaker 5>things that I wanted to point out and then Jordan

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<v Speaker 5>and I want you to try in after this. You know,

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<v Speaker 5>there's this whole thing that they're specifically trying to do

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<v Speaker 5>is use the system in order for them to actually

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<v Speaker 5>get changed. And usually people are wanting to go and say, hey,

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<v Speaker 5>I we need to work out outside of the system

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<v Speaker 5>in order for us to affect change. And the thing

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<v Speaker 5>about it is, I have a friend that says government

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<v Speaker 5>is the game and politics is how you play it.

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<v Speaker 5>And I remember specifically in an article him saying that

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<v Speaker 5>if I can find it, he said, I get messages

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<v Speaker 5>from people denigrating us for taking legal action to assert

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<v Speaker 5>our rights, saying you can't change the system from within

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<v Speaker 5>the system, And I keep asking them what the fuck

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<v Speaker 5>do you think you just saw happen. That's what we did.

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<v Speaker 5>And I totally agree with this tactic. I think that

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<v Speaker 5>in order for us to be able to change anything

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<v Speaker 5>as far as like you know, far as world will

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<v Speaker 5>be wayed concerns, you're going to lead legislation if you

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<v Speaker 5>talk about.

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<v Speaker 2>Lately.

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<v Speaker 5>I saw that in Congress after the GOP took and

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<v Speaker 5>took charge, that disbanded the Congressional committee that talked about

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<v Speaker 5>civil rights for voting right. And you're seeing this happen

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<v Speaker 5>over and over again. So voting matter, using your voice matters.

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<v Speaker 5>Actually working within the system to change things that you

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<v Speaker 5>don't like matters. And I appreciate the Satanic Temple actually

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<v Speaker 5>doing that. But when he says that, I'm curious to know,

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<v Speaker 5>especially with the wake of the Christian nationalists and and

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<v Speaker 5>them actually getting laws, pushing things that they want to

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<v Speaker 5>get fullard done. Jordan, are you what is your take

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<v Speaker 5>on Well?

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<v Speaker 1>I was kind of torn when I was reading this

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<v Speaker 1>article because on the one hand, I really appreciate the

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<v Speaker 1>effort that they're going for, and obviously I support their goals,

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<v Speaker 1>and it's clever using kind of the tools of the

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<v Speaker 1>enemy against the enemy. Not to other everybody who's religious.

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<v Speaker 1>But obviously this was an effort of the religious right

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<v Speaker 1>over many decades, and they're using the language and tools

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<v Speaker 1>of religion to try to influence the state, and that's

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<v Speaker 1>that's a good thing. On the other hand, I would

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<v Speaker 1>love to live in a world where we didn't have

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<v Speaker 1>to put on the quote of religion in order to

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<v Speaker 1>enact change, you know, Like this is Roby Wade was

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<v Speaker 1>such a popular that it had what sixty seventy percent

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<v Speaker 1>support across the board. It like nothing has that level

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<v Speaker 1>of support, you know, And so the fact that we

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<v Speaker 1>have to play this game almost in order to get

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<v Speaker 1>this extremely popular thing to work is extremely disappointed. But

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<v Speaker 1>I fully agree with what you said, Cynthia that ultimately,

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<v Speaker 1>if we all work together, ultimately the votes are what

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<v Speaker 1>are going to change. The politicians care about They care

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<v Speaker 1>about power and the way they stay empowers by getting

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<v Speaker 1>voted in, and so if we stop them from getting

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<v Speaker 1>voted in, then that's the way we're going to do it.

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<v Speaker 1>So that to toss it over to you, Helen, I'm

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<v Speaker 1>really interested what your take is on this and what

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<v Speaker 1>do you think, like, how do you think they should

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<v Speaker 1>move the home.

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<v Speaker 2>Aila I don't.

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<v Speaker 4>I think that their public persona is a double edged

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<v Speaker 4>sword because it's only gets it's eyeballs on them when.

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<v Speaker 2>They do dramatics displays of.

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<v Speaker 4>Protests against things like against abortion, against queer rights, against

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<v Speaker 4>and they do public rituals, which definitely gets them in

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<v Speaker 4>the news and definitely get a response, which is fantastic

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<v Speaker 4>because you want that, you want that attention to go

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<v Speaker 4>go there. But again, as he said, the messages get

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<v Speaker 4>lost in the theatrics. It's I think it's a very

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<v Speaker 4>hard balance for Satic Temple is doing.

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<v Speaker 2>But at the same time, I'm kind of like, well.

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<v Speaker 4>But he he does a lot of interviews and he

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<v Speaker 4>is the public face for the state Temple, and he

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<v Speaker 4>got invited on Fox News, so you know, his vase

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<v Speaker 4>is out there and he speaks up and maybe out

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<v Speaker 4>of like the millions of viewers watching Fox News, and

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<v Speaker 4>he appears and he's talk He starts talking about the

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<v Speaker 4>separation of church and state and what they're actually doing.

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<v Speaker 4>And then if even five people are like, oh, I understand,

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<v Speaker 4>and they start doing a little bit of research on

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<v Speaker 4>what the Santanic Temple is doing. Okay, I kind of

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<v Speaker 4>want that, So I it's it's really difficult. But at

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<v Speaker 4>this point, with Roby Wade being turnedover, I'm kind of

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<v Speaker 4>not going to be very picky about you know, who's

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<v Speaker 4>going to be, you know, taking up the mantle and

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<v Speaker 4>fighting for equal rights. So and for this barbaric law

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<v Speaker 4>to be forced upon us, and now people that can

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<v Speaker 4>bear children are scrambling and trying to figure out what

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<v Speaker 4>they're going to do. I at this point, I understand

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<v Speaker 4>the frustrations, but also at the same time, I'm not

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<v Speaker 4>caring at this point right now because they're a bigger

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<v Speaker 4>fish to fry.

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<v Speaker 2>That's the kind of way I look at it. What

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<v Speaker 2>do you think, Sinny?

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<v Speaker 1>Thank you.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah. From from the outside, I have a kind of

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<v Speaker 3>a different perspective. I don't want to to emminish his

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<v Speaker 3>work because we haven't insisted enough on this. But the

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<v Speaker 3>article talks in length about the stigma he's facing for

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<v Speaker 3>for his engage engagement he as we said, he had

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<v Speaker 3>the threats, he has to move, he had to move

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<v Speaker 3>his UH this took a heavy toll on him, and

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<v Speaker 3>UH I want this to be set on on on

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<v Speaker 3>on record. On the other hand, I think that the

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<v Speaker 3>the the image that the general public in the US

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<v Speaker 3>has about the the Satanic Temple is a make believe

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<v Speaker 3>religion to attack other religions, and until this image doesn't

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<v Speaker 3>go away, I'm afraid they won't be able to go

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<v Speaker 3>very far unless they have very good lawyers. But that's

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<v Speaker 3>a different topic.

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<v Speaker 5>Different lawyers are just different sentiments of society and of itself,

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<v Speaker 5>because you know, let's just face it, the symbolism that's

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<v Speaker 5>behind the iconography of Satan is very triggering. Especially but

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<v Speaker 5>you know, before we just wrap up and go on

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<v Speaker 5>to our next segment, I just wanted to just say that,

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<v Speaker 5>in my humble opinion, to look at the efforts of

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<v Speaker 5>the Satanic Temple and to see that if they will

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<v Speaker 5>make a change or not, one must consider that as

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<v Speaker 5>much as we try to promote amiable discourse to come

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<v Speaker 5>to proper understanding, that is not the commitment to every person.

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<v Speaker 5>And I think that that's something that was very much

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<v Speaker 5>so displayed when we started to see different laws that

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<v Speaker 5>popped up before and after the overturning of rov Waite,

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<v Speaker 5>and so I believe that sometimes circumvention is absolutely necessary.

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<v Speaker 5>But you know, I think that the Satanic Temple, utilizing

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<v Speaker 5>what they can do within the within the sphere of

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<v Speaker 5>politics is usually the way to go. I wish him

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<v Speaker 5>luck because as a person with uterus, I am very

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<v Speaker 5>I'm very invested in this particular issue.