Speaker 1: Welcome to when you know you know.
Speaker 2: And if there's one thing that I know, Michael Cohen,
Speaker 2: is that, deep down at my very core, it's what
Speaker 2: happens when the full, relentless weight of the government comes
Speaker 2: crashing down on your head. Now, most people they walk
Speaker 2: around believing in this idealized, textbook version of the justice system.
Speaker 1: They think it's a balanced scale.
Speaker 2: But let me shatter that illusion for you right now,
Speaker 2: because when the government decides to put you in its crosshairs,
Speaker 2: it isn't a legal battle. It's a steamroller and you're
Speaker 2: the esphalt. And it doesn't matter what the initial predicate was.
Speaker 2: It doesn't matter if the investigation started over a legitimate transgression,
Speaker 2: a technicality, or a politically convenient pretext. Once that massive
Speaker 2: federal estate apparatus decides that you're the target, the outcome
Speaker 2: feels predetermined. Government. They have bottomless pockets, unlimited personnel, and
Speaker 2: a machine that never sleeps you. You've got a defense
Speaker 2: attorney who charges by the minute while your bank account
Speaker 2: bleeds out in real time. Your life gets completely flipped
Speaker 2: on its head, literally before you ever set foot inside
Speaker 2: the courtroom. And the moment the news breaks, the court
Speaker 2: of public opinion, they've already.
Speaker 1: Passed its verdict.
Speaker 2: Friends you've known for decades suddenly forget how to answer
Speaker 2: their phones right. Business partners vanish into thin air, Your
Speaker 2: family is subjected to microscopic scrutiny, and your entire life's
Speaker 2: work reduced to a series of sensationalized headlines. Mind you,
Speaker 2: the terrifying reality of being targeted by the state is
Speaker 2: that innocent until proven guilty, it's nothing more than acute
Speaker 2: slogan that's printed on legal pants. In practice, the mere
Speaker 2: existence of an indictment it's literally enough to destroy your reputation,
Speaker 2: your livelihood, and your sanity. They bring dozens of counts,
Speaker 2: they stack charges on you like Djenga blocks, and they
Speaker 2: pressure everyone in your bit until the sheer weight forces
Speaker 2: a resolution. You aren't just fighting charges, uh now, you're
Speaker 2: fighting a narrative crafted by prosecutors who have never lost
Speaker 2: the night's sleep over collateral damage. So when the government
Speaker 2: decides to come after you with everything that they've got,
Speaker 2: you learn the hardest truth of all that you aren't
Speaker 2: fighting to prove your innocence. You're just trying to survive
Speaker 2: the process. And I'd like to welcome right now, John
Speaker 2: kiriaku to when you know, you know, I hope I
Speaker 2: pronounced the last.
Speaker 3: Name right close, kiryaku kuriak That's okay, all right, You
Speaker 3: and I would probably need a half a day to
Speaker 3: talk about all these issues because.
Speaker 1: You mean, how to pronounce?
Speaker 3: You have hit on so many important issues right now.
Speaker 3: Everything you said is exactly true.
Speaker 4: The deck is stacked. The government has an unlimited budget.
Speaker 3: They do these things called one of them is called
Speaker 3: charge stacking, yep, where maybe you maybe you did do one,
Speaker 3: but they won't charge you with one thing.
Speaker 4: They'll charge you with ten or twenty felonies.
Speaker 2: And the reason that they do it is so that
Speaker 2: they can turn around and add to the ultimate sentence. Right,
Speaker 2: exactly right, If you have one charge, okay, what's the
Speaker 2: charge going to end up being twelve months reduced down
Speaker 2: to eight possibly out in four with good time in
Speaker 2: the fifteen percent federal credit? Not They stack everything that
Speaker 2: they can. Why a fraud, bank, fraud, you name it,
Speaker 2: across the board. Why if in fact I had gone
Speaker 2: to shout because I pled to a one page indictment,
Speaker 2: had I gone and followed through with the threats I
Speaker 2: was potentially looking at?
Speaker 5: This is no joke thirty years I was forty five years. Oh,
Speaker 5: you were better than me, and I asked my attorneys
Speaker 5: you win. I made a final decision. The Justice Department
Speaker 5: made what they called their best and final offer, which
Speaker 5: was for three years. It was it three years, it
Speaker 5: was two and a half years, thirty months, and I
Speaker 5: turned it down. And my attorneys came to my house
Speaker 5: angrily seven o'clock in the morning, and one of them
Speaker 5: rushed in.
Speaker 3: And said, you stupid, sob take the deal. I said,
Speaker 3: you're the one who told me not to take the deal.
Speaker 3: You're the one who told me I was innocent and
Speaker 3: we were going to try right. And he said, I
Speaker 3: just told you that to keep your morale up. And
Speaker 3: then the second one said, listen, if you were my
Speaker 3: own brother, I would ask you to take this deal,
Speaker 3: and I'm asking you to take this deal. And then
Speaker 3: the third attorney I had eleven, the third attorney, who
Speaker 3: I liked and.
Speaker 1: Respected, to your taste lest.
Speaker 4: Year and a month, thirteen months.
Speaker 1: Mine lasted forty eight hours, unbelieved.
Speaker 2: From a Friday PM, I was told if I don't
Speaker 2: come in and plead guilty to what they wanted me
Speaker 2: to plead to, they were finally an eighty page indictment
Speaker 2: that included my wife.
Speaker 3: Seeing they threatened my wife too, and I asked one
Speaker 3: of the attorneys, I said, if I go to trial
Speaker 3: and I lose, what am I realistically looking at? And
Speaker 3: he said twelve to eighteen years, take the deal, And
Speaker 3: so I took the deal, which ended up being twenty
Speaker 3: three months. It infuriated the CIA and one of the attorneys.
Speaker 3: The day before I left for prison, he pulled me aside.
Speaker 3: He said, listen, I'm hearing that they're really mad that
Speaker 3: you only got twenty three months, so you need to
Speaker 3: be very careful.
Speaker 4: They're going to try to set you up.
Speaker 2: Well, I beat you on that one because I got
Speaker 2: thirty six months with thirty six months additional of supervised release.
Speaker 3: I got the thirty six months supervised release as well. Well,
Speaker 3: I do want to jump in because they're such dangerous
Speaker 3: national security three.
Speaker 2: Well, sure, I mean doing an NDA. I mean, how
Speaker 2: is it possible right that it's only six years. I
Speaker 2: do want to ask you this, John, because you gave
Speaker 2: years of your life to the CIA. You caught terrorists,
Speaker 2: you won awards, you did the job that they asked
Speaker 2: you to do, and then the minute, literally the minute
Speaker 2: that you challenged the narrative on water boarding.
Speaker 1: Because that's what this was all about.
Speaker 4: That's right.
Speaker 2: They came after you. When did you realize that loyalty
Speaker 2: only works one way, that the institution will protect itself
Speaker 2: long before it ever protects you.
Speaker 4: You know what it was?
Speaker 3: Before I even left the CIA, I was I was
Speaker 3: one of fourteen people asked if I wanted to be
Speaker 3: trained in these torture techniques, and I said, this is illegal,
Speaker 3: besides being immoral and unethical, I'm sorry to say I
Speaker 3: was the only one who said no.
Speaker 2: I'd like, can you teach me? Some of those are
Speaker 2: some of the people that work here. They actually need
Speaker 2: a little bit of a lesson.
Speaker 4: You have to get a big jug.
Speaker 1: I need a big jug, so a Joe, can you
Speaker 1: get me a jug?
Speaker 3: So I said no, and then I got passed over
Speaker 3: for promotion. I had just captured the number three in
Speaker 3: Al Qaida with these two hands, and I got passed
Speaker 3: over for promotion. So I went into the office of
Speaker 3: the deputy Director of counter terrorism. I said, what do
Speaker 3: I need to do around here to get promoted? Catch
Speaker 3: bin Laden? And he said The direct actor said that
Speaker 3: you displayed a shocking lack of commitment to counter terrorism
Speaker 3: because I wouldn't be trained in the torture techniques.
Speaker 2: I got promoted the use you with the CIA almost
Speaker 2: fifteen oh fifteen.
Speaker 1: That's not long enough.
Speaker 3: I realized that this was this was a deeper split
Speaker 3: than than met the eye at first, and so I
Speaker 3: knew I was going to be on the other side
Speaker 3: of this thing. But you know, call me arrogant. I
Speaker 3: really believed at the time, and I continue to believe
Speaker 3: I was right and they were wrong.
Speaker 4: And so I never waivered in my position.
Speaker 2: Wow wow, because then they charged you under the espionage
Speaker 2: ack over information that actually never even became public.
Speaker 1: No, you did thirty months?
Speaker 4: Yeah, twenty three have thirty months?
Speaker 2: Well that's what the fifteen percent often the good time
Speaker 2: and all that. Meanwhile, people in Washington, yep, they lead
Speaker 2: classified information every single day, literally every day. And by
Speaker 2: the way, Trump hates that, right, I mean, you know,
Speaker 2: the leakers. It's always the leaker. He hates that with
Speaker 2: a passion. But they leak it when it helps them
Speaker 2: with their careers. Yes, So I want to ask you,
Speaker 2: is this really about protecting national security or do you
Speaker 2: think it's about making an example out of anyone who
Speaker 2: threatens the system. They did that also, right, they did
Speaker 2: that also to what was the name of.
Speaker 1: Reality Winner?
Speaker 3: Reality Winner? Yes, she took it on that chair.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 2: I spoke to her many times, tried to help her
Speaker 2: through the whole process.
Speaker 3: Oh, that was generous of you. I think she's wonderful.
Speaker 3: And you know, one of the funny things about reality
Speaker 3: is she doesn't consider herself to be a whistleblower.
Speaker 1: No at all. One page she hates the term.
Speaker 3: But they came down on her like a ton of bricks,
Speaker 3: to the point where not only did she get five
Speaker 3: and a quarter years for leaking one page, five and
Speaker 3: a quarter years one page. That did no damage to
Speaker 3: the national security, by the way, but she's still not
Speaker 3: allowed to leave the state of Texas, which I don't
Speaker 3: even understand.
Speaker 2: I don't understand it either. I didn't understand her case.
Speaker 2: I actually don't understand your case either.
Speaker 4: But can I interrupt you for a second.
Speaker 3: Have you ever heard of the book Three Felonies, A
Speaker 3: course by Harvey.
Speaker 4: He really hits the name.
Speaker 2: I read that while I was in solitary confinement, the
Speaker 2: same thing. How many books did juid while you were
Speaker 2: in prison.
Speaker 3: You know, I actually counted them and it was an
Speaker 3: even hundred.
Speaker 1: I was ninety seven again.
Speaker 2: But I was only there for thirteen months. You know,
Speaker 2: I was fortunate COVID actually helped me because as a
Speaker 2: result of COVID, I have co morbidities that really placed
Speaker 2: me in jeopardy.
Speaker 1: I was part of the first wave that was relieving. However,
Speaker 1: they had.
Speaker 2: To put you in solitary confinement for fourteen days, so I,
Speaker 2: along with seven other inmates, were sent over to the
Speaker 2: bad side because I was at Otis Fild the Low
Speaker 2: the camp, and on day thirteen, I see all of
Speaker 2: the administration coming in. They have everybody signing documents. Well,
Speaker 2: nobody's coming to mind. And by the way, unlike what
Speaker 2: everybody thinks when you're in solitary confinement, like Shoshank Redemption,
Speaker 2: we weren't allowed out at all. I was by myself,
Speaker 2: you know. There I am twenty four to seven. Basically,
Speaker 2: they feed you through the door, assuming that they even
Speaker 2: decide to feed you. And I'm not getting anybody coming
Speaker 2: to me, So I'm kicking at the door. Someone comes over,
Speaker 2: what do you want cone? So I said, what about me?
Speaker 2: You're not getting out I said, why not, Washington pulled
Speaker 2: back your.
Speaker 1: File, and I said, what do you mean they pulled
Speaker 1: back my file?
Speaker 2: They're reviewing it. Well, how long we have no idea? Well,
Speaker 2: then send me back now. Then you'll have to stay
Speaker 2: another fourteen days, thirty five days.
Speaker 1: That was the first time. I remember.
Speaker 2: I got remanded the second time because I refused to
Speaker 2: waive my First Amendment constitutional rights. I yeah, I want
Speaker 2: to move on, and I want to ask you something.
Speaker 2: The second that those prison gates closed, none of your
Speaker 2: CIA credential mattered anymore. I remember when I walked into
Speaker 2: a little guy, Chris Anzil. He turned around. He says
Speaker 2: to me, I don't care who you are. I said me, neither.
Speaker 2: He goes, don't speak what I'm saying.
Speaker 1: Okay. I'm like, you asked me a question. It's like here,
Speaker 1: you're just eight six oh six seven daysh oh five.
Speaker 2: Four, So okay, turn around. He's like, I just want
Speaker 2: to get that straight. And I was like, gradul less, buddy,
Speaker 2: why don't you just why don't you say it a
Speaker 2: fifth time makes you feel better? So he goes, I'll
Speaker 2: throw you in the shoe, I'll management variable you out
Speaker 2: of here, and I'll send you off to supermacs.
Speaker 1: Sure they have the right to do so.
Speaker 2: Like me, you were just another another inmate, even though
Speaker 2: you came in with notoriety.
Speaker 1: Yes, because I know exactly what it feels like.
Speaker 2: What was the biggest lesson that prison taught you about
Speaker 2: yourself that nobody on the outside could ever understand?
Speaker 4: Nobody's ever asked me that question.
Speaker 1: Before nobody else knows what I know.
Speaker 2: That's exactly you know, when you.
Speaker 1: Know that's it.
Speaker 4: I had no idea how tough I was.
Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, like you, I always kind of was
Speaker 3: one of an intellectual.
Speaker 4: I write a lot.
Speaker 3: I spent a lifetime in office jobs, you know, working
Speaker 3: for important people, both of us. I didn't realize how
Speaker 3: tough I was and how scrappy I was, even like
Speaker 3: my then wife said to me, they've consistently underestimated your toughness.
Speaker 4: You can do this.
Speaker 3: I was supposed to be in the minimum security camp,
Speaker 3: and when I got to the prison, they started leading
Speaker 3: me around to the back of the actual prison below
Speaker 3: and I said, no, no, I'm supposed to be in
Speaker 3: the camp. The guy laughs at me. He says, huh not,
Speaker 3: according to my paperwork, you're not and I told myself,
Speaker 3: take it easy, there's nothing you can do.
Speaker 4: This was the CIA again. The CIA complained to Justice
Speaker 4: that this was so.
Speaker 1: That you were not in a low.
Speaker 4: I was in the low, but not the camp.
Speaker 1: Right. Oh, you were in low because I was in
Speaker 1: the camp, right. Yeah.
Speaker 3: So I told myself, take it easy, there's nothing you
Speaker 3: can do. If you say anything, they're going to put
Speaker 3: you in the shoe.
Speaker 1: And so did you ever go to the shoe? No,
Speaker 1: I did. You were very twice.
Speaker 3: I'm lucky twice. Yeah, And they threatened it a couple
Speaker 3: of times. I got right in the warden's face one
Speaker 3: time and I said, Warden, with all due respect, I've
Speaker 3: gone nose to those with al Qaeda, with Hesbala, with
Speaker 3: the Iranians, and I'm supposed to be afraid of you. Please,
Speaker 3: I said, I lived in Yemen. That's a lot worse
Speaker 3: than your solitary in Loretto, Pennsylvania.
Speaker 4: And he backed off.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Interesting because I came in in a very unusual circumstance
Speaker 2: made me very unpopular on day one, both in the
Speaker 2: both in the camp where I was and also on
Speaker 2: the medium security one across Why well, as I left
Speaker 2: my apartment, we were followed by about a dozen short orders.
Speaker 2: But I wasn't just followed by reporters. There were three
Speaker 2: or four helicopters that followed us. You would think this
Speaker 2: was an OJH. I mean, this was insane. They actually
Speaker 2: flew over and they were hovering over the facility where
Speaker 2: I was at, which was called Otisville. They were, and
Speaker 2: that of course caused a complete and total lockdown. So no,
Speaker 2: there was no movement on either side, first time ever,
Speaker 2: in first time ever in Low that they or or
Speaker 2: I should say the camp that they ever locked them
Speaker 2: in where nobody was allowed movement until I was ultimately
Speaker 2: finished being processed and then brought over to the camp.
Speaker 2: And it's interesting because the administrator for the camp.
Speaker 1: Turned around and drove me over from.
Speaker 2: The medium, which is where you get processed to the camp,
Speaker 2: and he goes nobody gets driven. So I said, well,
Speaker 2: why they drive me because the helicopters are above and
Speaker 2: they're trying to get a photo right, And I was like, okay, great.
Speaker 1: I actually use that several.
Speaker 2: Times because I had a lot of friends who were
Speaker 2: journalists that came to visit me a lot, and they
Speaker 2: didn't want to allow them. So what they would do
Speaker 2: is they would actually shred their application to come in
Speaker 2: and they're like, oh, that's not true. You can't say
Speaker 2: that bullshit, all right. I know for a fact, In fact,
Speaker 2: I saw it. I saw some of the pages that
Speaker 2: they would do and throw into the garbage and say,
Speaker 2: that's how stupid some of them were where they would
Speaker 2: actually just throw it into the garbage and leave it
Speaker 2: there because we were in and out of their office
Speaker 2: all the time. So, I mean, the facilities are a disaster.
Speaker 3: Disaster So we're talking before we went on the air if.
Speaker 2: The Bureau Prisons, which now that at least I have
Speaker 2: re kindled a relationship with the president and I have
Speaker 2: some access to individuals that are there. It's inhuman the
Speaker 2: way that they want inmates to live. The facilities are old.
Speaker 2: They're all Butler buildings, meaning that they're metal foundations covered
Speaker 2: by aluminum. The summers are insanely hot. There's no ventilation. Yeah,
Speaker 2: there's no ventilations, definitively no air conditioning. And during the
Speaker 2: winter it is brutally cold. We were three thousand feet
Speaker 2: up in the air. We're on top of the mountain,
Speaker 2: forty degrees on your bed. You and I were talking
Speaker 2: about how we slept at night during the winter. People
Speaker 2: don't even realize what they end up doing to you.
Speaker 2: Why don't you tell the audience, tell them what your
Speaker 2: experience was, because it's it mirrors mind almost identically.
Speaker 3: It was shocking to me how cold it got in
Speaker 3: its housing. In it as you mentioned, you and I
Speaker 3: both had the same experience. You have to put on
Speaker 3: two pairs of socks, underwear, and then long underwear.
Speaker 1: Thermos, your work pain or pants.
Speaker 3: I would put on a shirt and then a sweatshirt
Speaker 3: over the shirt, and then my winter coat and then
Speaker 3: get under the covers.
Speaker 1: Because you put on even less than I.
Speaker 2: I put on my scarf, I put on our hat,
Speaker 2: a winter hat and gloves.
Speaker 1: And they were wonderful. They were absolutely wonderful.
Speaker 2: The administration they gave us an extra blanket, which is
Speaker 2: pretty much about the size of a piece of tissue paper.
Speaker 3: I'll tell you I would have been happy just with
Speaker 3: a pillow. I never got a pillow.
Speaker 1: You didn't get And I.
Speaker 3: Said to the unit manager, I said, hey, come you
Speaker 3: get a pillow. I'd been there like five six days
Speaker 3: and he says, what is this.
Speaker 4: The f in Hilton.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I've heard that line. Yeah.
Speaker 3: Yeah, And so I ended up paying a guy to
Speaker 3: make me a pillow.
Speaker 4: Yeah, for a couple of macs matt bags of mackerel.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: People don't realize, you know, how the entire system is
Speaker 2: busted up.
Speaker 1: It's corrupt beyond.
Speaker 4: From the mean up to the bottom.
Speaker 2: Who is It's funny because the name of the group
Speaker 2: that actually runs the ENTIREMISI and everything, it's called Bob Barker,
Speaker 2: and everybody thinks it's the Bob Barker from the price.
Speaker 1: Is right, it's not.
Speaker 2: Somebody told me and I've never verified, so I'm not
Speaker 2: even gonna say but that that individual is actually a
Speaker 2: relative of a very well known former president. And I've
Speaker 2: got to double check onto that one. I keep forgetting
Speaker 2: to look it up.
Speaker 1: But I heard that worth researching.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, they buy garbage at like a nickel,
Speaker 2: and they're charging to some of the poorest people in America.
Speaker 2: They're charging them five dollars for something that they're paying
Speaker 2: a quarter for. That's right, right, I mean you want
Speaker 2: to talk about a profit margin?
Speaker 4: God, may I add something else. One of the things that.
Speaker 3: I wrote about in prison that resulted in, you know,
Speaker 3: another threat to be sent to solitary was let's say
Speaker 3: they ordered a palette of pop tarts.
Speaker 4: You know what, let's say pop darts were.
Speaker 1: They weren't pop tarts, they were they.
Speaker 3: Were the fake generic pop tarts or batteries. These crooked
Speaker 3: CEOs would back up their Ford f one fifties to
Speaker 3: the loading dock, steal all the pop tarts, all the batteries,
Speaker 3: all the shampoo, A and d ointment for some reason,
Speaker 3: and then sell it on Facebook marketplace or sell it
Speaker 3: on eBay. And then we've got nothing in the in
Speaker 3: the commissary. And it was prisoner money that was supposed
Speaker 3: to be used, the profits from the commissary to buy equipment, Well,
Speaker 3: all it did was buy an eight ch TV for
Speaker 3: the guards lounge.
Speaker 2: If you fix exercise, and if you think that's terrible,
Speaker 2: this is true. Myself and a bunch of my buddies
Speaker 2: we were fixing the fire hydrants game experts had well
Speaker 2: he was actually he was really in the industry, and
Speaker 2: we went ahead and we would drive around. We'd fix
Speaker 2: all the fire extinguishers that would you know, fire hydrants
Speaker 2: because none of them worked. Okay, great, while we're fixing one,
Speaker 2: a buddy of mine was working over at the warehouse,
Speaker 2: which is where all the palettes come in.
Speaker 1: Michael, you got to see this, So I go over.
Speaker 1: He shows me.
Speaker 2: It's a pallet that's stacked up about six feet high,
Speaker 2: frozen in a block of ice. It's is the craziest story.
Speaker 2: And on the side it turns out and says frozen chicken.
Speaker 2: It was. It was chicken, frozen quart of chicken legs
Speaker 2: or something like that. The expiration date was ten years
Speaker 2: earlier from the twenty ten. I was there in twenty twenty,
Speaker 2: so it's ten years earlier. Imagine that it was coming
Speaker 2: from Canada, which is where they bought it. But the
Speaker 2: thing that really drove him crazy was on the other
Speaker 2: side of the pallet attached to it. Also, it's a
Speaker 2: not for human consumption.
Speaker 1: It was animal feed. It was animal feed.
Speaker 4: My very first fully.
Speaker 2: Fortunately, I've never had a piece of chicken in my life,
Speaker 2: so I didn't really care. But God knows, if that's
Speaker 2: what they were doing with the chicken, imagine what date
Speaker 2: what all the other stuff was.
Speaker 3: My very first full day was a Friday, and one
Speaker 3: of the Italian guy said to me, Friday fish day,
Speaker 3: and I said, oh good, I like fish and He said, Oh,
Speaker 3: you don't like this fish. Don't eat this fish. We
Speaker 3: call it sewer trapped. And I said, okay. We go
Speaker 3: down to the chow hall and they have these boxes
Speaker 3: stacked up behind the line clearly marked. It says Alaskan
Speaker 3: cod product of China, so it's not Alaskan cod, and
Speaker 3: then underneath it says not for human consumption, feed use only.
Speaker 3: I never touched this stuff.
Speaker 2: Yes, it's so you can throw up from just the
Speaker 2: thought of it. I want to kind of finish by
Speaker 2: asking you this. There's millions of people are now watching
Speaker 2: your interviews online, hearing things that they never hear.
Speaker 1: On cable news.
Speaker 2: Is social media finally giving people like you a voice?
Speaker 2: I know it has for me that the establishment cannot silence.
Speaker 2: Or do you think it's just turned serious national security
Speaker 2: conversation into I'm going to quote the next viral clip
Speaker 2: before everybody moves on.
Speaker 4: No, I think it's the former.
Speaker 3: I think that podcasting is the future. I'll give you
Speaker 3: an example. I did I did. I have my own
Speaker 3: podcast called Briefing Room that I'm very proud of.
Speaker 4: It's brand new.
Speaker 3: I've only done three four episodes, and it's really taken
Speaker 3: off so I commented for a few minutes on the
Speaker 3: death of Lindsay Graham. The other day, I got one
Speaker 3: hundred and fifty eight thousand views MSNBC's commentary on Lindsay
Speaker 3: Graham fifty thousand.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 3: I think people are tired of the mainstream media. They
Speaker 3: don't believe the mainstream media anymore. These these big outlets
Speaker 3: have an agenda, and they're looking for people that they
Speaker 3: can trust, people who know what they're talking about, and
Speaker 3: they have found shows like yours and nine.
Speaker 2: You know, my initial Maya Kulpa podcast is over five
Speaker 2: hundred million downloads. Then my second one did over seven
Speaker 2: hundred million. See now you know those I put to
Speaker 2: the side. Now we're doing this, which is you know,
Speaker 2: when you know, you know, unleashed and like you it's
Speaker 2: really taking off. People are sick and tired. I know,
Speaker 2: I am. I can't watch the news anymore.
Speaker 3: I ask you too, when was the last time you
Speaker 3: were invited onto CNN, MSNBC, Fox, Yeah.
Speaker 1: Well it's been it's been a wild it's been a while, exactly.
Speaker 2: I probably soon now get on Fox, the CNN or
Speaker 2: ms now because I'm constantly criticizing them. First of all,
Speaker 2: this back and forth, cackling between. It's all performance art.
Speaker 2: There's no real substance. They don't want to hear from
Speaker 2: people like yourself. They don't want to hear from people
Speaker 2: like me, people who actually have firsthand knowledge.
Speaker 1: Of the situation.
Speaker 2: Rather, they want to hear from somebody who's going to
Speaker 2: stick to the talking points that they want. And that's why,
Speaker 2: of course people on the left are now furious that
Speaker 2: you know, CNN is going to be sold and it's
Speaker 2: going to be part of that whole paramount deal. So
Speaker 2: why because you're going to now have maybe centrist or
Speaker 2: right of center idol and.
Speaker 3: Then look at MS now, which is to be even worse.
Speaker 3: It's in a death spiral.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean the ratings are embarrassing.
Speaker 2: Well, John, it's really a pleasure to me. Thank you
Speaker 2: so much, so much for joining me. This is fantastic
Speaker 2: love to be a guest on as we have millionship.
Speaker 2: By the way, just so you know, I brought a little.
Speaker 1: Prop for myself. By the way, I didn't bring it.
Speaker 2: It's always in my wallet instead of using my ID
Speaker 2: when I'm going I pull out my.
Speaker 1: Old former prisoner I d card, right, I.
Speaker 2: Go nowhere without it. You know, people are saying, are
Speaker 2: you really Michael Cohen.
Speaker 3: I'm like, yeah, you have a really great attitude. I
Speaker 3: was so furious. I didn't realize how angry I was
Speaker 3: when I got home, but I was. Literally The first
Speaker 3: thing I did is today shredded me.
Speaker 2: The only thing I realized on I got home is
Speaker 2: how much weight I actually lost.
Speaker 1: Right, John, so nice to me. Thanks, thank you so much,
Speaker 1: and thank you for everything you're doing.
Speaker 4: And thank you for what you're doing.
Speaker 2: It's important, you know, John, Before actually I let you go,
Speaker 2: I understand also that you have a book that's going
Speaker 2: to come out.
Speaker 1: As you know.
Speaker 2: I also I wrote my first book while I was there,
Speaker 2: turned out to be a number one New York Times bestseller.
Speaker 2: So I wish you nothing but the same. Tell tell
Speaker 2: the audience about the book, what it's about, the title,
Speaker 2: When it's going to be released.
Speaker 3: It's going to be released, I thinkast August the eleventh.
Speaker 3: It's called The Ultimate CIA Guide to Tactics Techniques. Something
Speaker 3: do your Ultimate Guide to CIA Skills, Tactics and Techniques.
Speaker 3: It's called the Ultimate Guide to CIA Skills, Tactics and Techniques.
Speaker 3: So it focuses on surveillance and surveillance detection, lying and
Speaker 3: lie detection and disappearing and living off the grid. But
Speaker 3: like you, I wrote a book in prison called Doing
Speaker 3: Time Like a Spy The CIA, How the CIA taught
Speaker 3: me to survive and thrive in prison. I had to
Speaker 3: write it in long hand, like I'm sure you did too.
Speaker 2: I did, and by the way, with those not the
Speaker 2: cheapest worst pens you've ever.
Speaker 3: See, the worst ever, And they made you pay for them,
Speaker 3: of course. And I wrote it in long hand repeatedly.
Speaker 3: The guards would seize my writing and destroy.
Speaker 1: It smuggled out.
Speaker 3: That's what I ended up doing, smuggling it out, which
Speaker 3: then caused an investigation. I told them to go screw themselves,
Speaker 3: and I won two literary awards.
Speaker 4: I won the Penn First.
Speaker 3: Amendment Award and the Forward Reviews Memoir of the Year.
Speaker 4: So it was totally work.
Speaker 1: You beat me again, John, Always great talking to you.
Speaker 2: I really truly appreciate you joining me here on when
Speaker 2: you know, you know Unleashed. This podcast drops every single Tuesday,
Speaker 2: available wherever you get podcasts. Looking forward to joining you
Speaker 2: on yours again, John.
Speaker 4: I can't wait to see you. Thanks so much. Great
Speaker 4: to see you, Thank you, Thank you