Speaker 1: Welcome to when you know you know.
Speaker 2: And if there's one thing that I know, Michael Cohen,
is that, deep down at my very core, it's what
happens when the full, relentless weight of the government comes
crashing down on your head. Now, most people they walk
around believing in this idealized, textbook version of the justice system.
Speaker 1: They think it's a balanced scale.
Speaker 2: But let me shatter that illusion for you right now,
because when the government decides to put you in its crosshairs,
it isn't a legal battle. It's a steamroller and you're
the esphalt. And it doesn't matter what the initial predicate was.
It doesn't matter if the investigation started over a legitimate transgression,
a technicality, or a politically convenient pretext. Once that massive
federal estate apparatus decides that you're the target, the outcome
feels predetermined. Government. They have bottomless pockets, unlimited personnel, and
a machine that never sleeps you. You've got a defense
attorney who charges by the minute while your bank account
bleeds out in real time. Your life gets completely flipped
on its head, literally before you ever set foot inside
the courtroom. And the moment the news breaks, the court
of public opinion, they've already.
Speaker 1: Passed its verdict.
Speaker 2: Friends you've known for decades suddenly forget how to answer
their phones right. Business partners vanish into thin air, Your
family is subjected to microscopic scrutiny, and your entire life's
work reduced to a series of sensationalized headlines. Mind you,
the terrifying reality of being targeted by the state is
that innocent until proven guilty, it's nothing more than acute
slogan that's printed on legal pants. In practice, the mere
existence of an indictment it's literally enough to destroy your reputation,
your livelihood, and your sanity. They bring dozens of counts,
they stack charges on you like Djenga blocks, and they
pressure everyone in your bit until the sheer weight forces
a resolution. You aren't just fighting charges, uh now, you're
fighting a narrative crafted by prosecutors who have never lost
the night's sleep over collateral damage. So when the government
decides to come after you with everything that they've got,
you learn the hardest truth of all that you aren't
fighting to prove your innocence. You're just trying to survive
the process. And I'd like to welcome right now, John
kiriaku to when you know, you know, I hope I
pronounced the last.
Speaker 3: Name right close, kiryaku kuriak That's okay, all right, You
and I would probably need a half a day to
talk about all these issues because.
Speaker 1: You mean, how to pronounce?
Speaker 3: You have hit on so many important issues right now.
Everything you said is exactly true.
Speaker 4: The deck is stacked. The government has an unlimited budget.
Speaker 3: They do these things called one of them is called
charge stacking, yep, where maybe you maybe you did do one,
but they won't charge you with one thing.
Speaker 4: They'll charge you with ten or twenty felonies.
Speaker 2: And the reason that they do it is so that
they can turn around and add to the ultimate sentence. Right,
exactly right, If you have one charge, okay, what's the
charge going to end up being twelve months reduced down
to eight possibly out in four with good time in
the fifteen percent federal credit? Not They stack everything that
they can. Why a fraud, bank, fraud, you name it,
across the board. Why if in fact I had gone
to shout because I pled to a one page indictment,
had I gone and followed through with the threats I
was potentially looking at?
Speaker 5: This is no joke thirty years I was forty five years. Oh,
you were better than me, and I asked my attorneys
you win. I made a final decision. The Justice Department
made what they called their best and final offer, which
was for three years. It was it three years, it
was two and a half years, thirty months, and I
turned it down. And my attorneys came to my house
angrily seven o'clock in the morning, and one of them
rushed in.
Speaker 3: And said, you stupid, sob take the deal. I said,
you're the one who told me not to take the deal.
You're the one who told me I was innocent and
we were going to try right. And he said, I
just told you that to keep your morale up. And
then the second one said, listen, if you were my
own brother, I would ask you to take this deal,
and I'm asking you to take this deal. And then
the third attorney I had eleven, the third attorney, who
I liked and.
Speaker 1: Respected, to your taste lest.
Speaker 4: Year and a month, thirteen months.
Speaker 1: Mine lasted forty eight hours, unbelieved.
Speaker 2: From a Friday PM, I was told if I don't
come in and plead guilty to what they wanted me
to plead to, they were finally an eighty page indictment
that included my wife.
Speaker 3: Seeing they threatened my wife too, and I asked one
of the attorneys, I said, if I go to trial
and I lose, what am I realistically looking at? And
he said twelve to eighteen years, take the deal, And
so I took the deal, which ended up being twenty
three months. It infuriated the CIA and one of the attorneys.
The day before I left for prison, he pulled me aside.
He said, listen, I'm hearing that they're really mad that
you only got twenty three months, so you need to
be very careful.
Speaker 4: They're going to try to set you up.
Speaker 2: Well, I beat you on that one because I got
thirty six months with thirty six months additional of supervised release.
Speaker 3: I got the thirty six months supervised release as well. Well,
I do want to jump in because they're such dangerous
national security three.
Speaker 2: Well, sure, I mean doing an NDA. I mean, how
is it possible right that it's only six years. I
do want to ask you this, John, because you gave
years of your life to the CIA. You caught terrorists,
you won awards, you did the job that they asked
you to do, and then the minute, literally the minute
that you challenged the narrative on water boarding.
Speaker 1: Because that's what this was all about.
Speaker 4: That's right.
Speaker 2: They came after you. When did you realize that loyalty
only works one way, that the institution will protect itself
long before it ever protects you.
Speaker 4: You know what it was?
Speaker 3: Before I even left the CIA, I was I was
one of fourteen people asked if I wanted to be
trained in these torture techniques, and I said, this is illegal,
besides being immoral and unethical, I'm sorry to say I
was the only one who said no.
Speaker 2: I'd like, can you teach me? Some of those are
some of the people that work here. They actually need
a little bit of a lesson.
Speaker 4: You have to get a big jug.
Speaker 1: I need a big jug, so a Joe, can you
get me a jug?
Speaker 3: So I said no, and then I got passed over
for promotion. I had just captured the number three in
Al Qaida with these two hands, and I got passed
over for promotion. So I went into the office of
the deputy Director of counter terrorism. I said, what do
I need to do around here to get promoted? Catch
bin Laden? And he said The direct actor said that
you displayed a shocking lack of commitment to counter terrorism
because I wouldn't be trained in the torture techniques.
Speaker 2: I got promoted the use you with the CIA almost
fifteen oh fifteen.
Speaker 1: That's not long enough.
Speaker 3: I realized that this was this was a deeper split
than than met the eye at first, and so I
knew I was going to be on the other side
of this thing. But you know, call me arrogant. I
really believed at the time, and I continue to believe
I was right and they were wrong.
Speaker 4: And so I never waivered in my position.
Speaker 2: Wow wow, because then they charged you under the espionage
ack over information that actually never even became public.
Speaker 1: No, you did thirty months?
Speaker 4: Yeah, twenty three have thirty months?
Speaker 2: Well that's what the fifteen percent often the good time
and all that. Meanwhile, people in Washington, yep, they lead
classified information every single day, literally every day. And by
the way, Trump hates that, right, I mean, you know,
the leakers. It's always the leaker. He hates that with
a passion. But they leak it when it helps them
with their careers. Yes, So I want to ask you,
is this really about protecting national security or do you
think it's about making an example out of anyone who
threatens the system. They did that also, right, they did
that also to what was the name of.
Speaker 1: Reality Winner?
Speaker 3: Reality Winner? Yes, she took it on that chair.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 2: I spoke to her many times, tried to help her
through the whole process.
Speaker 3: Oh, that was generous of you. I think she's wonderful.
And you know, one of the funny things about reality
is she doesn't consider herself to be a whistleblower.
Speaker 1: No at all. One page she hates the term.
Speaker 3: But they came down on her like a ton of bricks,
to the point where not only did she get five
and a quarter years for leaking one page, five and
a quarter years one page. That did no damage to
the national security, by the way, but she's still not
allowed to leave the state of Texas, which I don't
even understand.
Speaker 2: I don't understand it either. I didn't understand her case.
I actually don't understand your case either.
Speaker 4: But can I interrupt you for a second.
Speaker 3: Have you ever heard of the book Three Felonies, A
course by Harvey.
Speaker 4: He really hits the name.
Speaker 2: I read that while I was in solitary confinement, the
same thing. How many books did juid while you were
in prison.
Speaker 3: You know, I actually counted them and it was an
even hundred.
Speaker 1: I was ninety seven again.
Speaker 2: But I was only there for thirteen months. You know,
I was fortunate COVID actually helped me because as a
result of COVID, I have co morbidities that really placed
me in jeopardy.
Speaker 1: I was part of the first wave that was relieving. However,
they had.
Speaker 2: To put you in solitary confinement for fourteen days, so I,
along with seven other inmates, were sent over to the
bad side because I was at Otis Fild the Low
the camp, and on day thirteen, I see all of
the administration coming in. They have everybody signing documents. Well,
nobody's coming to mind. And by the way, unlike what
everybody thinks when you're in solitary confinement, like Shoshank Redemption,
we weren't allowed out at all. I was by myself,
you know. There I am twenty four to seven. Basically,
they feed you through the door, assuming that they even
decide to feed you. And I'm not getting anybody coming
to me, So I'm kicking at the door. Someone comes over,
what do you want cone? So I said, what about me?
You're not getting out I said, why not, Washington pulled
back your.
Speaker 1: File, and I said, what do you mean they pulled
back my file?
Speaker 2: They're reviewing it. Well, how long we have no idea? Well,
then send me back now. Then you'll have to stay
another fourteen days, thirty five days.
Speaker 1: That was the first time. I remember.
Speaker 2: I got remanded the second time because I refused to
waive my First Amendment constitutional rights. I yeah, I want
to move on, and I want to ask you something.
The second that those prison gates closed, none of your
CIA credential mattered anymore. I remember when I walked into
a little guy, Chris Anzil. He turned around. He says
to me, I don't care who you are. I said me, neither.
He goes, don't speak what I'm saying.
Speaker 1: Okay. I'm like, you asked me a question. It's like here,
you're just eight six oh six seven daysh oh five.
Speaker 2: Four, So okay, turn around. He's like, I just want
to get that straight. And I was like, gradul less, buddy,
why don't you just why don't you say it a
fifth time makes you feel better? So he goes, I'll
throw you in the shoe, I'll management variable you out
of here, and I'll send you off to supermacs.
Speaker 1: Sure they have the right to do so.
Speaker 2: Like me, you were just another another inmate, even though
you came in with notoriety.
Speaker 1: Yes, because I know exactly what it feels like.
Speaker 2: What was the biggest lesson that prison taught you about
yourself that nobody on the outside could ever understand?
Speaker 4: Nobody's ever asked me that question.
Speaker 1: Before nobody else knows what I know.
Speaker 2: That's exactly you know, when you.
Speaker 1: Know that's it.
Speaker 4: I had no idea how tough I was.
Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, like you, I always kind of was
one of an intellectual.
Speaker 4: I write a lot.
Speaker 3: I spent a lifetime in office jobs, you know, working
for important people, both of us. I didn't realize how
tough I was and how scrappy I was, even like
my then wife said to me, they've consistently underestimated your toughness.
Speaker 4: You can do this.
Speaker 3: I was supposed to be in the minimum security camp,
and when I got to the prison, they started leading
me around to the back of the actual prison below
and I said, no, no, I'm supposed to be in
the camp. The guy laughs at me. He says, huh not,
according to my paperwork, you're not and I told myself,
take it easy, there's nothing you can do.
Speaker 4: This was the CIA again. The CIA complained to Justice
that this was so.
Speaker 1: That you were not in a low.
Speaker 4: I was in the low, but not the camp.
Speaker 1: Right. Oh, you were in low because I was in
the camp, right. Yeah.
Speaker 3: So I told myself, take it easy, there's nothing you
can do. If you say anything, they're going to put
you in the shoe.
Speaker 1: And so did you ever go to the shoe? No,
I did. You were very twice.
Speaker 3: I'm lucky twice. Yeah, And they threatened it a couple
of times. I got right in the warden's face one
time and I said, Warden, with all due respect, I've
gone nose to those with al Qaeda, with Hesbala, with
the Iranians, and I'm supposed to be afraid of you. Please,
I said, I lived in Yemen. That's a lot worse
than your solitary in Loretto, Pennsylvania.
Speaker 4: And he backed off.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Interesting because I came in in a very unusual circumstance
made me very unpopular on day one, both in the
both in the camp where I was and also on
the medium security one across Why well, as I left
my apartment, we were followed by about a dozen short orders.
But I wasn't just followed by reporters. There were three
or four helicopters that followed us. You would think this
was an OJH. I mean, this was insane. They actually
flew over and they were hovering over the facility where
I was at, which was called Otisville. They were, and
that of course caused a complete and total lockdown. So no,
there was no movement on either side, first time ever,
in first time ever in Low that they or or
I should say the camp that they ever locked them
in where nobody was allowed movement until I was ultimately
finished being processed and then brought over to the camp.
And it's interesting because the administrator for the camp.
Speaker 1: Turned around and drove me over from.
Speaker 2: The medium, which is where you get processed to the camp,
and he goes nobody gets driven. So I said, well,
why they drive me because the helicopters are above and
they're trying to get a photo right, And I was like, okay, great.
Speaker 1: I actually use that several.
Speaker 2: Times because I had a lot of friends who were
journalists that came to visit me a lot, and they
didn't want to allow them. So what they would do
is they would actually shred their application to come in
and they're like, oh, that's not true. You can't say
that bullshit, all right. I know for a fact, In fact,
I saw it. I saw some of the pages that
they would do and throw into the garbage and say,
that's how stupid some of them were where they would
actually just throw it into the garbage and leave it
there because we were in and out of their office
all the time. So, I mean, the facilities are a disaster.
Speaker 3: Disaster So we're talking before we went on the air if.
Speaker 2: The Bureau Prisons, which now that at least I have
re kindled a relationship with the president and I have
some access to individuals that are there. It's inhuman the
way that they want inmates to live. The facilities are old.
They're all Butler buildings, meaning that they're metal foundations covered
by aluminum. The summers are insanely hot. There's no ventilation. Yeah,
there's no ventilations, definitively no air conditioning. And during the
winter it is brutally cold. We were three thousand feet
up in the air. We're on top of the mountain,
forty degrees on your bed. You and I were talking
about how we slept at night during the winter. People
don't even realize what they end up doing to you.
Why don't you tell the audience, tell them what your
experience was, because it's it mirrors mind almost identically.
Speaker 3: It was shocking to me how cold it got in
its housing. In it as you mentioned, you and I
both had the same experience. You have to put on
two pairs of socks, underwear, and then long underwear.
Speaker 1: Thermos, your work pain or pants.
Speaker 3: I would put on a shirt and then a sweatshirt
over the shirt, and then my winter coat and then
get under the covers.
Speaker 1: Because you put on even less than I.
Speaker 2: I put on my scarf, I put on our hat,
a winter hat and gloves.
Speaker 1: And they were wonderful. They were absolutely wonderful.
Speaker 2: The administration they gave us an extra blanket, which is
pretty much about the size of a piece of tissue paper.
Speaker 3: I'll tell you I would have been happy just with
a pillow. I never got a pillow.
Speaker 1: You didn't get And I.
Speaker 3: Said to the unit manager, I said, hey, come you
get a pillow. I'd been there like five six days
and he says, what is this.
Speaker 4: The f in Hilton.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I've heard that line. Yeah.
Speaker 3: Yeah, And so I ended up paying a guy to
make me a pillow.
Speaker 4: Yeah, for a couple of macs matt bags of mackerel.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: People don't realize, you know, how the entire system is
busted up.
Speaker 1: It's corrupt beyond.
Speaker 4: From the mean up to the bottom.
Speaker 2: Who is It's funny because the name of the group
that actually runs the ENTIREMISI and everything, it's called Bob Barker,
and everybody thinks it's the Bob Barker from the price.
Speaker 1: Is right, it's not.
Speaker 2: Somebody told me and I've never verified, so I'm not
even gonna say but that that individual is actually a
relative of a very well known former president. And I've
got to double check onto that one. I keep forgetting
to look it up.
Speaker 1: But I heard that worth researching.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, they buy garbage at like a nickel,
and they're charging to some of the poorest people in America.
They're charging them five dollars for something that they're paying
a quarter for. That's right, right, I mean you want
to talk about a profit margin?
Speaker 4: God, may I add something else. One of the things that.
Speaker 3: I wrote about in prison that resulted in, you know,
another threat to be sent to solitary was let's say
they ordered a palette of pop tarts.
Speaker 4: You know what, let's say pop darts were.
Speaker 1: They weren't pop tarts, they were they.
Speaker 3: Were the fake generic pop tarts or batteries. These crooked
CEOs would back up their Ford f one fifties to
the loading dock, steal all the pop tarts, all the batteries,
all the shampoo, A and d ointment for some reason,
and then sell it on Facebook marketplace or sell it
on eBay. And then we've got nothing in the in
the commissary. And it was prisoner money that was supposed
to be used, the profits from the commissary to buy equipment, Well,
all it did was buy an eight ch TV for
the guards lounge.
Speaker 2: If you fix exercise, and if you think that's terrible,
this is true. Myself and a bunch of my buddies
we were fixing the fire hydrants game experts had well
he was actually he was really in the industry, and
we went ahead and we would drive around. We'd fix
all the fire extinguishers that would you know, fire hydrants
because none of them worked. Okay, great, while we're fixing one,
a buddy of mine was working over at the warehouse,
which is where all the palettes come in.
Speaker 1: Michael, you got to see this, So I go over.
He shows me.
Speaker 2: It's a pallet that's stacked up about six feet high,
frozen in a block of ice. It's is the craziest story.
And on the side it turns out and says frozen chicken.
It was. It was chicken, frozen quart of chicken legs
or something like that. The expiration date was ten years
earlier from the twenty ten. I was there in twenty twenty,
so it's ten years earlier. Imagine that it was coming
from Canada, which is where they bought it. But the
thing that really drove him crazy was on the other
side of the pallet attached to it. Also, it's a
not for human consumption.
Speaker 1: It was animal feed. It was animal feed.
Speaker 4: My very first fully.
Speaker 2: Fortunately, I've never had a piece of chicken in my life,
so I didn't really care. But God knows, if that's
what they were doing with the chicken, imagine what date
what all the other stuff was.
Speaker 3: My very first full day was a Friday, and one
of the Italian guy said to me, Friday fish day,
and I said, oh good, I like fish and He said, Oh,
you don't like this fish. Don't eat this fish. We
call it sewer trapped. And I said, okay. We go
down to the chow hall and they have these boxes
stacked up behind the line clearly marked. It says Alaskan
cod product of China, so it's not Alaskan cod, and
then underneath it says not for human consumption, feed use only.
I never touched this stuff.
Speaker 2: Yes, it's so you can throw up from just the
thought of it. I want to kind of finish by
asking you this. There's millions of people are now watching
your interviews online, hearing things that they never hear.
Speaker 1: On cable news.
Speaker 2: Is social media finally giving people like you a voice?
I know it has for me that the establishment cannot silence.
Or do you think it's just turned serious national security
conversation into I'm going to quote the next viral clip
before everybody moves on.
Speaker 4: No, I think it's the former.
Speaker 3: I think that podcasting is the future. I'll give you
an example. I did I did. I have my own
podcast called Briefing Room that I'm very proud of.
Speaker 4: It's brand new.
Speaker 3: I've only done three four episodes, and it's really taken
off so I commented for a few minutes on the
death of Lindsay Graham. The other day, I got one
hundred and fifty eight thousand views MSNBC's commentary on Lindsay
Graham fifty thousand.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 3: I think people are tired of the mainstream media. They
don't believe the mainstream media anymore. These these big outlets
have an agenda, and they're looking for people that they
can trust, people who know what they're talking about, and
they have found shows like yours and nine.
Speaker 2: You know, my initial Maya Kulpa podcast is over five
hundred million downloads. Then my second one did over seven
hundred million. See now you know those I put to
the side. Now we're doing this, which is you know,
when you know, you know, unleashed and like you it's
really taking off. People are sick and tired. I know,
I am. I can't watch the news anymore.
Speaker 3: I ask you too, when was the last time you
were invited onto CNN, MSNBC, Fox, Yeah.
Speaker 1: Well it's been it's been a wild it's been a while, exactly.
Speaker 2: I probably soon now get on Fox, the CNN or
ms now because I'm constantly criticizing them. First of all,
this back and forth, cackling between. It's all performance art.
There's no real substance. They don't want to hear from
people like yourself. They don't want to hear from people
like me, people who actually have firsthand knowledge.
Speaker 1: Of the situation.
Speaker 2: Rather, they want to hear from somebody who's going to
stick to the talking points that they want. And that's why,
of course people on the left are now furious that
you know, CNN is going to be sold and it's
going to be part of that whole paramount deal. So
why because you're going to now have maybe centrist or
right of center idol and.
Speaker 3: Then look at MS now, which is to be even worse.
It's in a death spiral.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean the ratings are embarrassing.
Speaker 2: Well, John, it's really a pleasure to me. Thank you
so much, so much for joining me. This is fantastic
love to be a guest on as we have millionship.
By the way, just so you know, I brought a little.
Speaker 1: Prop for myself. By the way, I didn't bring it.
Speaker 2: It's always in my wallet instead of using my ID
when I'm going I pull out my.
Speaker 1: Old former prisoner I d card, right, I.
Speaker 2: Go nowhere without it. You know, people are saying, are
you really Michael Cohen.
Speaker 3: I'm like, yeah, you have a really great attitude. I
was so furious. I didn't realize how angry I was
when I got home, but I was. Literally The first
thing I did is today shredded me.
Speaker 2: The only thing I realized on I got home is
how much weight I actually lost.
Speaker 1: Right, John, so nice to me. Thanks, thank you so much,
and thank you for everything you're doing.
Speaker 4: And thank you for what you're doing.
Speaker 2: It's important, you know, John, Before actually I let you go,
I understand also that you have a book that's going
to come out.
Speaker 1: As you know.
Speaker 2: I also I wrote my first book while I was there,
turned out to be a number one New York Times bestseller.
So I wish you nothing but the same. Tell tell
the audience about the book, what it's about, the title,
When it's going to be released.
Speaker 3: It's going to be released, I thinkast August the eleventh.
It's called The Ultimate CIA Guide to Tactics Techniques. Something
do your Ultimate Guide to CIA Skills, Tactics and Techniques.
It's called the Ultimate Guide to CIA Skills, Tactics and Techniques.
So it focuses on surveillance and surveillance detection, lying and
lie detection and disappearing and living off the grid. But
like you, I wrote a book in prison called Doing
Time Like a Spy The CIA, How the CIA taught
me to survive and thrive in prison. I had to
write it in long hand, like I'm sure you did too.
Speaker 2: I did, and by the way, with those not the
cheapest worst pens you've ever.
Speaker 3: See, the worst ever, And they made you pay for them,
of course. And I wrote it in long hand repeatedly.
The guards would seize my writing and destroy.
Speaker 1: It smuggled out.
Speaker 3: That's what I ended up doing, smuggling it out, which
then caused an investigation. I told them to go screw themselves,
and I won two literary awards.
Speaker 4: I won the Penn First.
Speaker 3: Amendment Award and the Forward Reviews Memoir of the Year.
Speaker 4: So it was totally work.
Speaker 1: You beat me again, John, Always great talking to you.
Speaker 2: I really truly appreciate you joining me here on when
you know, you know Unleashed. This podcast drops every single Tuesday,
available wherever you get podcasts. Looking forward to joining you
on yours again, John.
Speaker 4: I can't wait to see you. Thanks so much. Great
to see you, Thank you, Thank you