1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:02,160 Speaker 1: Welcome to when you know you know. 2 00:00:02,720 --> 00:00:05,639 Speaker 2: And if there's one thing that I know, Michael Cohen, 3 00:00:06,000 --> 00:00:09,519 is that, deep down at my very core, it's what 4 00:00:09,679 --> 00:00:13,119 happens when the full, relentless weight of the government comes 5 00:00:13,160 --> 00:00:16,000 crashing down on your head. Now, most people they walk 6 00:00:16,000 --> 00:00:20,760 around believing in this idealized, textbook version of the justice system. 7 00:00:21,039 --> 00:00:22,600 Speaker 1: They think it's a balanced scale. 8 00:00:23,120 --> 00:00:25,760 Speaker 2: But let me shatter that illusion for you right now, 9 00:00:25,960 --> 00:00:29,239 because when the government decides to put you in its crosshairs, 10 00:00:29,719 --> 00:00:33,479 it isn't a legal battle. It's a steamroller and you're 11 00:00:33,520 --> 00:00:37,079 the esphalt. And it doesn't matter what the initial predicate was. 12 00:00:37,320 --> 00:00:41,880 It doesn't matter if the investigation started over a legitimate transgression, 13 00:00:42,039 --> 00:00:47,200 a technicality, or a politically convenient pretext. Once that massive 14 00:00:47,280 --> 00:00:51,439 federal estate apparatus decides that you're the target, the outcome 15 00:00:51,640 --> 00:00:57,119 feels predetermined. Government. They have bottomless pockets, unlimited personnel, and 16 00:00:57,159 --> 00:01:01,200 a machine that never sleeps you. You've got a defense 17 00:01:01,200 --> 00:01:04,439 attorney who charges by the minute while your bank account 18 00:01:04,519 --> 00:01:08,439 bleeds out in real time. Your life gets completely flipped 19 00:01:08,439 --> 00:01:11,519 on its head, literally before you ever set foot inside 20 00:01:11,560 --> 00:01:14,599 the courtroom. And the moment the news breaks, the court 21 00:01:14,599 --> 00:01:17,439 of public opinion, they've already. 22 00:01:16,879 --> 00:01:17,879 Speaker 1: Passed its verdict. 23 00:01:18,400 --> 00:01:21,680 Speaker 2: Friends you've known for decades suddenly forget how to answer 24 00:01:21,719 --> 00:01:26,000 their phones right. Business partners vanish into thin air, Your 25 00:01:26,040 --> 00:01:29,840 family is subjected to microscopic scrutiny, and your entire life's 26 00:01:29,879 --> 00:01:35,159 work reduced to a series of sensationalized headlines. Mind you, 27 00:01:35,359 --> 00:01:38,599 the terrifying reality of being targeted by the state is 28 00:01:38,599 --> 00:01:42,159 that innocent until proven guilty, it's nothing more than acute 29 00:01:42,200 --> 00:01:46,480 slogan that's printed on legal pants. In practice, the mere 30 00:01:46,560 --> 00:01:50,719 existence of an indictment it's literally enough to destroy your reputation, 31 00:01:51,120 --> 00:01:55,359 your livelihood, and your sanity. They bring dozens of counts, 32 00:01:55,400 --> 00:01:58,480 they stack charges on you like Djenga blocks, and they 33 00:01:58,519 --> 00:02:02,400 pressure everyone in your bit until the sheer weight forces 34 00:02:02,439 --> 00:02:06,519 a resolution. You aren't just fighting charges, uh now, you're 35 00:02:06,599 --> 00:02:10,879 fighting a narrative crafted by prosecutors who have never lost 36 00:02:10,879 --> 00:02:14,719 the night's sleep over collateral damage. So when the government 37 00:02:14,759 --> 00:02:17,919 decides to come after you with everything that they've got, 38 00:02:18,439 --> 00:02:20,840 you learn the hardest truth of all that you aren't 39 00:02:20,919 --> 00:02:24,080 fighting to prove your innocence. You're just trying to survive 40 00:02:24,159 --> 00:02:27,680 the process. And I'd like to welcome right now, John 41 00:02:27,800 --> 00:02:31,240 kiriaku to when you know, you know, I hope I 42 00:02:31,280 --> 00:02:32,159 pronounced the last. 43 00:02:32,000 --> 00:02:35,599 Speaker 3: Name right close, kiryaku kuriak That's okay, all right, You 44 00:02:35,639 --> 00:02:38,479 and I would probably need a half a day to 45 00:02:38,599 --> 00:02:40,439 talk about all these issues because. 46 00:02:40,199 --> 00:02:41,159 Speaker 1: You mean, how to pronounce? 47 00:02:41,159 --> 00:02:46,360 Speaker 3: You have hit on so many important issues right now. 48 00:02:46,400 --> 00:02:48,560 Everything you said is exactly true. 49 00:02:48,759 --> 00:02:52,800 Speaker 4: The deck is stacked. The government has an unlimited budget. 50 00:02:53,120 --> 00:02:55,240 Speaker 3: They do these things called one of them is called 51 00:02:55,360 --> 00:02:59,879 charge stacking, yep, where maybe you maybe you did do one, 52 00:03:00,719 --> 00:03:02,080 but they won't charge you with one thing. 53 00:03:02,159 --> 00:03:04,680 Speaker 4: They'll charge you with ten or twenty felonies. 54 00:03:04,680 --> 00:03:06,879 Speaker 2: And the reason that they do it is so that 55 00:03:06,919 --> 00:03:10,520 they can turn around and add to the ultimate sentence. Right, 56 00:03:10,560 --> 00:03:13,120 exactly right, If you have one charge, okay, what's the 57 00:03:13,520 --> 00:03:17,199 charge going to end up being twelve months reduced down 58 00:03:17,240 --> 00:03:20,560 to eight possibly out in four with good time in 59 00:03:20,599 --> 00:03:24,199 the fifteen percent federal credit? Not They stack everything that 60 00:03:24,280 --> 00:03:27,120 they can. Why a fraud, bank, fraud, you name it, 61 00:03:27,159 --> 00:03:30,240 across the board. Why if in fact I had gone 62 00:03:30,280 --> 00:03:33,080 to shout because I pled to a one page indictment, 63 00:03:33,240 --> 00:03:37,680 had I gone and followed through with the threats I 64 00:03:37,800 --> 00:03:39,199 was potentially looking at? 65 00:03:39,520 --> 00:03:43,400 Speaker 5: This is no joke thirty years I was forty five years. Oh, 66 00:03:43,439 --> 00:03:46,039 you were better than me, and I asked my attorneys 67 00:03:46,120 --> 00:03:49,560 you win. I made a final decision. The Justice Department 68 00:03:49,639 --> 00:03:52,759 made what they called their best and final offer, which 69 00:03:52,919 --> 00:03:56,599 was for three years. It was it three years, it 70 00:03:56,639 --> 00:03:59,319 was two and a half years, thirty months, and I 71 00:03:59,400 --> 00:04:03,159 turned it down. And my attorneys came to my house 72 00:04:03,919 --> 00:04:08,319 angrily seven o'clock in the morning, and one of them 73 00:04:08,919 --> 00:04:09,520 rushed in. 74 00:04:09,439 --> 00:04:12,759 Speaker 3: And said, you stupid, sob take the deal. I said, 75 00:04:12,800 --> 00:04:14,599 you're the one who told me not to take the deal. 76 00:04:14,639 --> 00:04:16,759 You're the one who told me I was innocent and 77 00:04:16,800 --> 00:04:19,240 we were going to try right. And he said, I 78 00:04:19,439 --> 00:04:22,240 just told you that to keep your morale up. And 79 00:04:22,279 --> 00:04:25,199 then the second one said, listen, if you were my 80 00:04:25,279 --> 00:04:27,920 own brother, I would ask you to take this deal, 81 00:04:28,040 --> 00:04:30,439 and I'm asking you to take this deal. And then 82 00:04:30,480 --> 00:04:34,360 the third attorney I had eleven, the third attorney, who 83 00:04:34,399 --> 00:04:35,120 I liked and. 84 00:04:35,079 --> 00:04:37,399 Speaker 1: Respected, to your taste lest. 85 00:04:38,279 --> 00:04:41,279 Speaker 4: Year and a month, thirteen months. 86 00:04:41,639 --> 00:04:44,160 Speaker 1: Mine lasted forty eight hours, unbelieved. 87 00:04:44,199 --> 00:04:47,959 Speaker 2: From a Friday PM, I was told if I don't 88 00:04:48,040 --> 00:04:50,600 come in and plead guilty to what they wanted me 89 00:04:50,639 --> 00:04:53,319 to plead to, they were finally an eighty page indictment 90 00:04:53,360 --> 00:04:54,759 that included my wife. 91 00:04:55,000 --> 00:04:58,879 Speaker 3: Seeing they threatened my wife too, and I asked one 92 00:04:58,920 --> 00:05:01,439 of the attorneys, I said, if I go to trial 93 00:05:01,639 --> 00:05:04,120 and I lose, what am I realistically looking at? And 94 00:05:04,199 --> 00:05:08,040 he said twelve to eighteen years, take the deal, And 95 00:05:08,079 --> 00:05:10,800 so I took the deal, which ended up being twenty 96 00:05:10,800 --> 00:05:14,839 three months. It infuriated the CIA and one of the attorneys. 97 00:05:14,879 --> 00:05:16,720 The day before I left for prison, he pulled me aside. 98 00:05:16,759 --> 00:05:19,959 He said, listen, I'm hearing that they're really mad that 99 00:05:20,040 --> 00:05:22,600 you only got twenty three months, so you need to 100 00:05:22,600 --> 00:05:23,360 be very careful. 101 00:05:23,399 --> 00:05:24,720 Speaker 4: They're going to try to set you up. 102 00:05:24,800 --> 00:05:26,319 Speaker 2: Well, I beat you on that one because I got 103 00:05:26,319 --> 00:05:30,920 thirty six months with thirty six months additional of supervised release. 104 00:05:31,160 --> 00:05:34,120 Speaker 3: I got the thirty six months supervised release as well. Well, 105 00:05:34,120 --> 00:05:36,199 I do want to jump in because they're such dangerous 106 00:05:36,319 --> 00:05:37,759 national security three. 107 00:05:38,000 --> 00:05:40,600 Speaker 2: Well, sure, I mean doing an NDA. I mean, how 108 00:05:40,680 --> 00:05:43,519 is it possible right that it's only six years. I 109 00:05:43,560 --> 00:05:46,199 do want to ask you this, John, because you gave 110 00:05:46,360 --> 00:05:50,040 years of your life to the CIA. You caught terrorists, 111 00:05:50,439 --> 00:05:53,399 you won awards, you did the job that they asked 112 00:05:53,399 --> 00:05:56,720 you to do, and then the minute, literally the minute 113 00:05:56,720 --> 00:05:59,920 that you challenged the narrative on water boarding. 114 00:05:59,720 --> 00:06:01,160 Speaker 1: Because that's what this was all about. 115 00:06:01,240 --> 00:06:01,680 Speaker 4: That's right. 116 00:06:01,759 --> 00:06:05,279 Speaker 2: They came after you. When did you realize that loyalty 117 00:06:05,399 --> 00:06:09,319 only works one way, that the institution will protect itself 118 00:06:09,720 --> 00:06:12,079 long before it ever protects you. 119 00:06:12,079 --> 00:06:13,000 Speaker 4: You know what it was? 120 00:06:13,040 --> 00:06:17,000 Speaker 3: Before I even left the CIA, I was I was 121 00:06:17,040 --> 00:06:20,600 one of fourteen people asked if I wanted to be 122 00:06:20,680 --> 00:06:24,800 trained in these torture techniques, and I said, this is illegal, 123 00:06:25,160 --> 00:06:28,399 besides being immoral and unethical, I'm sorry to say I 124 00:06:28,519 --> 00:06:29,920 was the only one who said no. 125 00:06:30,160 --> 00:06:32,600 Speaker 2: I'd like, can you teach me? Some of those are 126 00:06:32,639 --> 00:06:34,720 some of the people that work here. They actually need 127 00:06:34,759 --> 00:06:35,720 a little bit of a lesson. 128 00:06:35,800 --> 00:06:36,839 Speaker 4: You have to get a big jug. 129 00:06:37,639 --> 00:06:39,800 Speaker 1: I need a big jug, so a Joe, can you 130 00:06:39,800 --> 00:06:40,519 get me a jug? 131 00:06:42,279 --> 00:06:44,759 Speaker 3: So I said no, and then I got passed over 132 00:06:44,800 --> 00:06:48,160 for promotion. I had just captured the number three in 133 00:06:48,160 --> 00:06:50,720 Al Qaida with these two hands, and I got passed 134 00:06:50,759 --> 00:06:53,040 over for promotion. So I went into the office of 135 00:06:53,079 --> 00:06:55,600 the deputy Director of counter terrorism. I said, what do 136 00:06:55,639 --> 00:06:57,519 I need to do around here to get promoted? Catch 137 00:06:57,519 --> 00:07:00,680 bin Laden? And he said The direct actor said that 138 00:07:00,759 --> 00:07:05,000 you displayed a shocking lack of commitment to counter terrorism 139 00:07:05,199 --> 00:07:07,879 because I wouldn't be trained in the torture techniques. 140 00:07:08,319 --> 00:07:11,199 Speaker 2: I got promoted the use you with the CIA almost 141 00:07:11,199 --> 00:07:12,439 fifteen oh fifteen. 142 00:07:12,600 --> 00:07:13,800 Speaker 1: That's not long enough. 143 00:07:13,920 --> 00:07:17,560 Speaker 3: I realized that this was this was a deeper split 144 00:07:17,639 --> 00:07:20,959 than than met the eye at first, and so I 145 00:07:21,000 --> 00:07:22,800 knew I was going to be on the other side 146 00:07:22,800 --> 00:07:25,879 of this thing. But you know, call me arrogant. I 147 00:07:25,920 --> 00:07:28,199 really believed at the time, and I continue to believe 148 00:07:28,720 --> 00:07:30,519 I was right and they were wrong. 149 00:07:30,800 --> 00:07:32,800 Speaker 4: And so I never waivered in my position. 150 00:07:33,199 --> 00:07:37,360 Speaker 2: Wow wow, because then they charged you under the espionage 151 00:07:37,439 --> 00:07:41,839 ack over information that actually never even became public. 152 00:07:41,920 --> 00:07:44,160 Speaker 1: No, you did thirty months? 153 00:07:44,279 --> 00:07:45,959 Speaker 4: Yeah, twenty three have thirty months? 154 00:07:46,160 --> 00:07:48,240 Speaker 2: Well that's what the fifteen percent often the good time 155 00:07:48,279 --> 00:07:51,839 and all that. Meanwhile, people in Washington, yep, they lead 156 00:07:51,839 --> 00:07:56,439 classified information every single day, literally every day. And by 157 00:07:56,439 --> 00:07:58,720 the way, Trump hates that, right, I mean, you know, 158 00:07:58,839 --> 00:08:01,720 the leakers. It's always the leaker. He hates that with 159 00:08:01,759 --> 00:08:04,879 a passion. But they leak it when it helps them 160 00:08:04,879 --> 00:08:07,519 with their careers. Yes, So I want to ask you, 161 00:08:08,199 --> 00:08:11,720 is this really about protecting national security or do you 162 00:08:11,759 --> 00:08:15,079 think it's about making an example out of anyone who 163 00:08:15,160 --> 00:08:18,480 threatens the system. They did that also, right, they did 164 00:08:18,480 --> 00:08:20,120 that also to what was the name of. 165 00:08:22,040 --> 00:08:23,079 Speaker 1: Reality Winner? 166 00:08:23,199 --> 00:08:26,439 Speaker 3: Reality Winner? Yes, she took it on that chair. 167 00:08:26,560 --> 00:08:26,759 Speaker 1: You know. 168 00:08:27,040 --> 00:08:29,040 Speaker 2: I spoke to her many times, tried to help her 169 00:08:29,040 --> 00:08:29,959 through the whole process. 170 00:08:30,040 --> 00:08:32,720 Speaker 3: Oh, that was generous of you. I think she's wonderful. 171 00:08:32,960 --> 00:08:35,240 And you know, one of the funny things about reality 172 00:08:35,279 --> 00:08:38,759 is she doesn't consider herself to be a whistleblower. 173 00:08:38,159 --> 00:08:41,480 Speaker 1: No at all. One page she hates the term. 174 00:08:42,080 --> 00:08:44,399 Speaker 3: But they came down on her like a ton of bricks, 175 00:08:44,399 --> 00:08:46,360 to the point where not only did she get five 176 00:08:46,399 --> 00:08:50,879 and a quarter years for leaking one page, five and 177 00:08:50,919 --> 00:08:53,080 a quarter years one page. That did no damage to 178 00:08:53,120 --> 00:08:56,240 the national security, by the way, but she's still not 179 00:08:56,320 --> 00:08:58,879 allowed to leave the state of Texas, which I don't 180 00:08:58,879 --> 00:09:01,879 even understand. 181 00:09:01,120 --> 00:09:05,720 Speaker 2: I don't understand it either. I didn't understand her case. 182 00:09:05,879 --> 00:09:08,159 I actually don't understand your case either. 183 00:09:08,320 --> 00:09:09,919 Speaker 4: But can I interrupt you for a second. 184 00:09:09,919 --> 00:09:12,240 Speaker 3: Have you ever heard of the book Three Felonies, A 185 00:09:12,320 --> 00:09:13,399 course by Harvey. 186 00:09:14,720 --> 00:09:16,279 Speaker 4: He really hits the name. 187 00:09:16,399 --> 00:09:18,679 Speaker 2: I read that while I was in solitary confinement, the 188 00:09:18,759 --> 00:09:20,600 same thing. How many books did juid while you were 189 00:09:20,600 --> 00:09:21,000 in prison. 190 00:09:21,080 --> 00:09:22,600 Speaker 3: You know, I actually counted them and it was an 191 00:09:22,600 --> 00:09:23,240 even hundred. 192 00:09:23,519 --> 00:09:25,120 Speaker 1: I was ninety seven again. 193 00:09:25,159 --> 00:09:27,480 Speaker 2: But I was only there for thirteen months. You know, 194 00:09:27,559 --> 00:09:31,080 I was fortunate COVID actually helped me because as a 195 00:09:31,080 --> 00:09:35,679 result of COVID, I have co morbidities that really placed 196 00:09:35,720 --> 00:09:36,399 me in jeopardy. 197 00:09:36,399 --> 00:09:40,440 Speaker 1: I was part of the first wave that was relieving. However, 198 00:09:41,159 --> 00:09:41,519 they had. 199 00:09:41,519 --> 00:09:44,720 Speaker 2: To put you in solitary confinement for fourteen days, so I, 200 00:09:44,799 --> 00:09:47,679 along with seven other inmates, were sent over to the 201 00:09:47,720 --> 00:09:51,279 bad side because I was at Otis Fild the Low 202 00:09:51,960 --> 00:09:56,360 the camp, and on day thirteen, I see all of 203 00:09:56,399 --> 00:10:00,600 the administration coming in. They have everybody signing documents. Well, 204 00:10:00,639 --> 00:10:03,440 nobody's coming to mind. And by the way, unlike what 205 00:10:03,480 --> 00:10:08,080 everybody thinks when you're in solitary confinement, like Shoshank Redemption, 206 00:10:08,519 --> 00:10:11,600 we weren't allowed out at all. I was by myself, 207 00:10:11,679 --> 00:10:14,919 you know. There I am twenty four to seven. Basically, 208 00:10:15,000 --> 00:10:17,039 they feed you through the door, assuming that they even 209 00:10:17,080 --> 00:10:20,879 decide to feed you. And I'm not getting anybody coming 210 00:10:20,919 --> 00:10:23,120 to me, So I'm kicking at the door. Someone comes over, 211 00:10:23,159 --> 00:10:26,519 what do you want cone? So I said, what about me? 212 00:10:27,240 --> 00:10:30,399 You're not getting out I said, why not, Washington pulled 213 00:10:30,399 --> 00:10:30,960 back your. 214 00:10:30,840 --> 00:10:32,919 Speaker 1: File, and I said, what do you mean they pulled 215 00:10:32,960 --> 00:10:33,600 back my file? 216 00:10:34,000 --> 00:10:37,960 Speaker 2: They're reviewing it. Well, how long we have no idea? Well, 217 00:10:37,960 --> 00:10:39,799 then send me back now. Then you'll have to stay 218 00:10:39,799 --> 00:10:42,759 another fourteen days, thirty five days. 219 00:10:43,000 --> 00:10:44,080 Speaker 1: That was the first time. I remember. 220 00:10:44,120 --> 00:10:46,840 Speaker 2: I got remanded the second time because I refused to 221 00:10:46,879 --> 00:10:51,480 waive my First Amendment constitutional rights. I yeah, I want 222 00:10:51,480 --> 00:10:53,240 to move on, and I want to ask you something. 223 00:10:53,360 --> 00:10:58,759 The second that those prison gates closed, none of your 224 00:10:58,840 --> 00:11:02,559 CIA credential mattered anymore. I remember when I walked into 225 00:11:02,720 --> 00:11:05,320 a little guy, Chris Anzil. He turned around. He says 226 00:11:05,360 --> 00:11:08,320 to me, I don't care who you are. I said me, neither. 227 00:11:08,399 --> 00:11:10,480 He goes, don't speak what I'm saying. 228 00:11:11,240 --> 00:11:14,840 Speaker 1: Okay. I'm like, you asked me a question. It's like here, 229 00:11:15,279 --> 00:11:17,879 you're just eight six oh six seven daysh oh five. 230 00:11:17,759 --> 00:11:21,480 Speaker 2: Four, So okay, turn around. He's like, I just want 231 00:11:21,480 --> 00:11:25,360 to get that straight. And I was like, gradul less, buddy, 232 00:11:25,200 --> 00:11:27,360 why don't you just why don't you say it a 233 00:11:27,360 --> 00:11:30,399 fifth time makes you feel better? So he goes, I'll 234 00:11:30,440 --> 00:11:34,440 throw you in the shoe, I'll management variable you out 235 00:11:34,480 --> 00:11:36,960 of here, and I'll send you off to supermacs. 236 00:11:37,120 --> 00:11:38,840 Speaker 1: Sure they have the right to do so. 237 00:11:39,000 --> 00:11:42,159 Speaker 2: Like me, you were just another another inmate, even though 238 00:11:42,200 --> 00:11:45,120 you came in with notoriety. 239 00:11:45,360 --> 00:11:47,919 Speaker 1: Yes, because I know exactly what it feels like. 240 00:11:48,799 --> 00:11:52,080 Speaker 2: What was the biggest lesson that prison taught you about 241 00:11:52,120 --> 00:11:56,000 yourself that nobody on the outside could ever understand? 242 00:11:58,039 --> 00:11:59,799 Speaker 4: Nobody's ever asked me that question. 243 00:11:59,559 --> 00:12:01,600 Speaker 1: Before nobody else knows what I know. 244 00:12:01,879 --> 00:12:04,320 Speaker 2: That's exactly you know, when you. 245 00:12:04,440 --> 00:12:05,960 Speaker 1: Know that's it. 246 00:12:06,519 --> 00:12:09,080 Speaker 4: I had no idea how tough I was. 247 00:12:09,200 --> 00:12:13,039 Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, like you, I always kind of was 248 00:12:13,519 --> 00:12:14,600 one of an intellectual. 249 00:12:16,559 --> 00:12:17,480 Speaker 4: I write a lot. 250 00:12:17,799 --> 00:12:22,559 Speaker 3: I spent a lifetime in office jobs, you know, working 251 00:12:22,600 --> 00:12:26,559 for important people, both of us. I didn't realize how 252 00:12:26,600 --> 00:12:29,759 tough I was and how scrappy I was, even like 253 00:12:30,039 --> 00:12:35,080 my then wife said to me, they've consistently underestimated your toughness. 254 00:12:35,360 --> 00:12:36,039 Speaker 4: You can do this. 255 00:12:36,759 --> 00:12:39,279 Speaker 3: I was supposed to be in the minimum security camp, 256 00:12:40,000 --> 00:12:43,320 and when I got to the prison, they started leading 257 00:12:43,320 --> 00:12:46,039 me around to the back of the actual prison below 258 00:12:46,200 --> 00:12:48,039 and I said, no, no, I'm supposed to be in 259 00:12:48,080 --> 00:12:50,799 the camp. The guy laughs at me. He says, huh not, 260 00:12:50,879 --> 00:12:54,200 according to my paperwork, you're not and I told myself, 261 00:12:54,440 --> 00:12:56,559 take it easy, there's nothing you can do. 262 00:12:56,720 --> 00:13:00,519 Speaker 4: This was the CIA again. The CIA complained to Justice 263 00:13:00,559 --> 00:13:01,480 that this was so. 264 00:13:02,159 --> 00:13:03,240 Speaker 1: That you were not in a low. 265 00:13:03,399 --> 00:13:05,120 Speaker 4: I was in the low, but not the camp. 266 00:13:05,440 --> 00:13:07,720 Speaker 1: Right. Oh, you were in low because I was in 267 00:13:07,759 --> 00:13:09,360 the camp, right. Yeah. 268 00:13:09,399 --> 00:13:13,039 Speaker 3: So I told myself, take it easy, there's nothing you 269 00:13:13,080 --> 00:13:14,919 can do. If you say anything, they're going to put 270 00:13:14,919 --> 00:13:16,080 you in the shoe. 271 00:13:16,240 --> 00:13:18,480 Speaker 1: And so did you ever go to the shoe? No, 272 00:13:18,720 --> 00:13:21,039 I did. You were very twice. 273 00:13:21,120 --> 00:13:24,279 Speaker 3: I'm lucky twice. Yeah, And they threatened it a couple 274 00:13:24,320 --> 00:13:26,559 of times. I got right in the warden's face one 275 00:13:26,600 --> 00:13:29,799 time and I said, Warden, with all due respect, I've 276 00:13:29,840 --> 00:13:33,639 gone nose to those with al Qaeda, with Hesbala, with 277 00:13:33,759 --> 00:13:38,399 the Iranians, and I'm supposed to be afraid of you. Please, 278 00:13:38,519 --> 00:13:42,240 I said, I lived in Yemen. That's a lot worse 279 00:13:42,480 --> 00:13:45,159 than your solitary in Loretto, Pennsylvania. 280 00:13:45,320 --> 00:13:46,120 Speaker 4: And he backed off. 281 00:13:46,360 --> 00:13:46,600 Speaker 1: Yeah. 282 00:13:47,120 --> 00:13:52,679 Speaker 2: Interesting because I came in in a very unusual circumstance 283 00:13:54,519 --> 00:13:58,279 made me very unpopular on day one, both in the 284 00:13:58,480 --> 00:14:01,519 both in the camp where I was and also on 285 00:14:01,600 --> 00:14:07,080 the medium security one across Why well, as I left 286 00:14:07,120 --> 00:14:12,120 my apartment, we were followed by about a dozen short orders. 287 00:14:12,559 --> 00:14:15,080 But I wasn't just followed by reporters. There were three 288 00:14:15,200 --> 00:14:17,639 or four helicopters that followed us. You would think this 289 00:14:17,759 --> 00:14:21,720 was an OJH. I mean, this was insane. They actually 290 00:14:22,120 --> 00:14:26,840 flew over and they were hovering over the facility where 291 00:14:26,879 --> 00:14:29,759 I was at, which was called Otisville. They were, and 292 00:14:29,799 --> 00:14:33,559 that of course caused a complete and total lockdown. So no, 293 00:14:33,720 --> 00:14:36,799 there was no movement on either side, first time ever, 294 00:14:37,000 --> 00:14:40,840 in first time ever in Low that they or or 295 00:14:40,840 --> 00:14:44,120 I should say the camp that they ever locked them 296 00:14:44,240 --> 00:14:47,840 in where nobody was allowed movement until I was ultimately 297 00:14:48,039 --> 00:14:52,519 finished being processed and then brought over to the camp. 298 00:14:52,679 --> 00:14:56,919 And it's interesting because the administrator for the camp. 299 00:14:56,840 --> 00:14:59,720 Speaker 1: Turned around and drove me over from. 300 00:14:59,600 --> 00:15:03,519 Speaker 2: The medium, which is where you get processed to the camp, 301 00:15:03,720 --> 00:15:06,440 and he goes nobody gets driven. So I said, well, 302 00:15:06,440 --> 00:15:08,919 why they drive me because the helicopters are above and 303 00:15:08,919 --> 00:15:12,360 they're trying to get a photo right, And I was like, okay, great. 304 00:15:12,840 --> 00:15:15,399 Speaker 1: I actually use that several. 305 00:15:15,039 --> 00:15:17,120 Speaker 2: Times because I had a lot of friends who were 306 00:15:17,200 --> 00:15:20,159 journalists that came to visit me a lot, and they 307 00:15:20,200 --> 00:15:22,480 didn't want to allow them. So what they would do 308 00:15:22,519 --> 00:15:25,559 is they would actually shred their application to come in 309 00:15:25,759 --> 00:15:28,200 and they're like, oh, that's not true. You can't say 310 00:15:28,240 --> 00:15:31,679 that bullshit, all right. I know for a fact, In fact, 311 00:15:31,759 --> 00:15:34,159 I saw it. I saw some of the pages that 312 00:15:34,200 --> 00:15:36,279 they would do and throw into the garbage and say, 313 00:15:36,279 --> 00:15:38,799 that's how stupid some of them were where they would 314 00:15:38,799 --> 00:15:41,279 actually just throw it into the garbage and leave it 315 00:15:41,320 --> 00:15:43,200 there because we were in and out of their office 316 00:15:43,240 --> 00:15:48,679 all the time. So, I mean, the facilities are a disaster. 317 00:15:49,120 --> 00:15:53,240 Speaker 3: Disaster So we're talking before we went on the air if. 318 00:15:53,080 --> 00:15:55,879 Speaker 2: The Bureau Prisons, which now that at least I have 319 00:15:56,679 --> 00:15:59,799 re kindled a relationship with the president and I have 320 00:16:00,320 --> 00:16:05,519 some access to individuals that are there. It's inhuman the 321 00:16:05,559 --> 00:16:10,080 way that they want inmates to live. The facilities are old. 322 00:16:10,600 --> 00:16:14,279 They're all Butler buildings, meaning that they're metal foundations covered 323 00:16:14,320 --> 00:16:19,720 by aluminum. The summers are insanely hot. There's no ventilation. Yeah, 324 00:16:19,759 --> 00:16:22,840 there's no ventilations, definitively no air conditioning. And during the 325 00:16:22,879 --> 00:16:25,840 winter it is brutally cold. We were three thousand feet 326 00:16:25,919 --> 00:16:27,480 up in the air. We're on top of the mountain, 327 00:16:28,360 --> 00:16:31,840 forty degrees on your bed. You and I were talking 328 00:16:31,840 --> 00:16:34,759 about how we slept at night during the winter. People 329 00:16:34,799 --> 00:16:37,600 don't even realize what they end up doing to you. 330 00:16:38,039 --> 00:16:40,879 Why don't you tell the audience, tell them what your 331 00:16:40,919 --> 00:16:44,480 experience was, because it's it mirrors mind almost identically. 332 00:16:44,799 --> 00:16:47,600 Speaker 3: It was shocking to me how cold it got in 333 00:16:48,039 --> 00:16:51,360 its housing. In it as you mentioned, you and I 334 00:16:51,399 --> 00:16:54,000 both had the same experience. You have to put on 335 00:16:54,039 --> 00:16:57,799 two pairs of socks, underwear, and then long underwear. 336 00:16:57,399 --> 00:17:00,759 Speaker 1: Thermos, your work pain or pants. 337 00:17:00,840 --> 00:17:02,919 Speaker 3: I would put on a shirt and then a sweatshirt 338 00:17:03,039 --> 00:17:06,400 over the shirt, and then my winter coat and then 339 00:17:06,480 --> 00:17:07,599 get under the covers. 340 00:17:07,960 --> 00:17:10,440 Speaker 1: Because you put on even less than I. 341 00:17:10,440 --> 00:17:13,000 Speaker 2: I put on my scarf, I put on our hat, 342 00:17:13,480 --> 00:17:16,200 a winter hat and gloves. 343 00:17:16,480 --> 00:17:18,799 Speaker 1: And they were wonderful. They were absolutely wonderful. 344 00:17:18,839 --> 00:17:21,720 Speaker 2: The administration they gave us an extra blanket, which is 345 00:17:21,799 --> 00:17:24,359 pretty much about the size of a piece of tissue paper. 346 00:17:24,440 --> 00:17:26,079 Speaker 3: I'll tell you I would have been happy just with 347 00:17:26,119 --> 00:17:27,440 a pillow. I never got a pillow. 348 00:17:27,519 --> 00:17:29,079 Speaker 1: You didn't get And I. 349 00:17:29,039 --> 00:17:30,799 Speaker 3: Said to the unit manager, I said, hey, come you 350 00:17:30,839 --> 00:17:32,960 get a pillow. I'd been there like five six days 351 00:17:33,240 --> 00:17:34,960 and he says, what is this. 352 00:17:35,000 --> 00:17:35,880 Speaker 4: The f in Hilton. 353 00:17:36,000 --> 00:17:37,319 Speaker 1: Yeah, I've heard that line. Yeah. 354 00:17:37,400 --> 00:17:40,519 Speaker 3: Yeah, And so I ended up paying a guy to 355 00:17:41,079 --> 00:17:41,960 make me a pillow. 356 00:17:42,839 --> 00:17:45,799 Speaker 4: Yeah, for a couple of macs matt bags of mackerel. 357 00:17:46,039 --> 00:17:46,279 Speaker 1: Yeah. 358 00:17:46,559 --> 00:17:51,000 Speaker 2: People don't realize, you know, how the entire system is 359 00:17:51,079 --> 00:17:51,720 busted up. 360 00:17:51,920 --> 00:17:53,480 Speaker 1: It's corrupt beyond. 361 00:17:53,759 --> 00:17:55,000 Speaker 4: From the mean up to the bottom. 362 00:17:55,000 --> 00:17:57,559 Speaker 2: Who is It's funny because the name of the group 363 00:17:57,880 --> 00:18:02,279 that actually runs the ENTIREMISI and everything, it's called Bob Barker, 364 00:18:02,440 --> 00:18:05,160 and everybody thinks it's the Bob Barker from the price. 365 00:18:05,000 --> 00:18:05,880 Speaker 1: Is right, it's not. 366 00:18:06,519 --> 00:18:08,640 Speaker 2: Somebody told me and I've never verified, so I'm not 367 00:18:08,640 --> 00:18:11,559 even gonna say but that that individual is actually a 368 00:18:11,640 --> 00:18:18,440 relative of a very well known former president. And I've 369 00:18:18,440 --> 00:18:20,680 got to double check onto that one. I keep forgetting 370 00:18:20,720 --> 00:18:21,480 to look it up. 371 00:18:21,400 --> 00:18:22,880 Speaker 1: But I heard that worth researching. 372 00:18:22,960 --> 00:18:26,319 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, they buy garbage at like a nickel, 373 00:18:26,720 --> 00:18:30,279 and they're charging to some of the poorest people in America. 374 00:18:30,400 --> 00:18:33,920 They're charging them five dollars for something that they're paying 375 00:18:33,920 --> 00:18:36,160 a quarter for. That's right, right, I mean you want 376 00:18:36,160 --> 00:18:37,480 to talk about a profit margin? 377 00:18:37,759 --> 00:18:40,559 Speaker 4: God, may I add something else. One of the things that. 378 00:18:40,519 --> 00:18:44,000 Speaker 3: I wrote about in prison that resulted in, you know, 379 00:18:44,079 --> 00:18:48,599 another threat to be sent to solitary was let's say 380 00:18:48,640 --> 00:18:51,799 they ordered a palette of pop tarts. 381 00:18:52,359 --> 00:18:53,920 Speaker 4: You know what, let's say pop darts were. 382 00:18:53,920 --> 00:18:55,720 Speaker 1: They weren't pop tarts, they were they. 383 00:18:55,440 --> 00:18:59,759 Speaker 3: Were the fake generic pop tarts or batteries. These crooked 384 00:19:00,519 --> 00:19:03,400 CEOs would back up their Ford f one fifties to 385 00:19:03,480 --> 00:19:07,079 the loading dock, steal all the pop tarts, all the batteries, 386 00:19:07,200 --> 00:19:10,599 all the shampoo, A and d ointment for some reason, 387 00:19:10,960 --> 00:19:13,440 and then sell it on Facebook marketplace or sell it 388 00:19:13,440 --> 00:19:16,240 on eBay. And then we've got nothing in the in 389 00:19:16,279 --> 00:19:20,720 the commissary. And it was prisoner money that was supposed 390 00:19:20,759 --> 00:19:25,359 to be used, the profits from the commissary to buy equipment, Well, 391 00:19:25,359 --> 00:19:27,319 all it did was buy an eight ch TV for 392 00:19:27,359 --> 00:19:28,240 the guards lounge. 393 00:19:28,279 --> 00:19:31,000 Speaker 2: If you fix exercise, and if you think that's terrible, 394 00:19:32,319 --> 00:19:35,680 this is true. Myself and a bunch of my buddies 395 00:19:35,759 --> 00:19:39,160 we were fixing the fire hydrants game experts had well 396 00:19:39,160 --> 00:19:42,880 he was actually he was really in the industry, and 397 00:19:43,759 --> 00:19:46,319 we went ahead and we would drive around. We'd fix 398 00:19:46,400 --> 00:19:50,160 all the fire extinguishers that would you know, fire hydrants 399 00:19:50,160 --> 00:19:54,319 because none of them worked. Okay, great, while we're fixing one, 400 00:19:54,359 --> 00:19:56,680 a buddy of mine was working over at the warehouse, 401 00:19:56,720 --> 00:19:58,440 which is where all the palettes come in. 402 00:19:59,039 --> 00:20:01,640 Speaker 1: Michael, you got to see this, So I go over. 403 00:20:01,759 --> 00:20:02,359 He shows me. 404 00:20:02,759 --> 00:20:06,359 Speaker 2: It's a pallet that's stacked up about six feet high, 405 00:20:07,000 --> 00:20:10,480 frozen in a block of ice. It's is the craziest story. 406 00:20:11,440 --> 00:20:15,880 And on the side it turns out and says frozen chicken. 407 00:20:16,279 --> 00:20:18,799 It was. It was chicken, frozen quart of chicken legs 408 00:20:18,880 --> 00:20:25,359 or something like that. The expiration date was ten years 409 00:20:25,400 --> 00:20:28,359 earlier from the twenty ten. I was there in twenty twenty, 410 00:20:29,519 --> 00:20:33,519 so it's ten years earlier. Imagine that it was coming 411 00:20:33,559 --> 00:20:36,440 from Canada, which is where they bought it. But the 412 00:20:36,519 --> 00:20:39,880 thing that really drove him crazy was on the other 413 00:20:40,000 --> 00:20:42,799 side of the pallet attached to it. Also, it's a 414 00:20:42,880 --> 00:20:44,200 not for human consumption. 415 00:20:44,759 --> 00:20:47,640 Speaker 1: It was animal feed. It was animal feed. 416 00:20:47,440 --> 00:20:48,480 Speaker 4: My very first fully. 417 00:20:48,559 --> 00:20:50,400 Speaker 2: Fortunately, I've never had a piece of chicken in my life, 418 00:20:50,400 --> 00:20:52,440 so I didn't really care. But God knows, if that's 419 00:20:52,480 --> 00:20:54,720 what they were doing with the chicken, imagine what date 420 00:20:54,799 --> 00:20:56,000 what all the other stuff was. 421 00:20:56,160 --> 00:20:59,359 Speaker 3: My very first full day was a Friday, and one 422 00:20:59,400 --> 00:21:01,839 of the Italian guy said to me, Friday fish day, 423 00:21:02,359 --> 00:21:04,799 and I said, oh good, I like fish and He said, Oh, 424 00:21:05,519 --> 00:21:08,200 you don't like this fish. Don't eat this fish. We 425 00:21:08,279 --> 00:21:10,880 call it sewer trapped. And I said, okay. We go 426 00:21:10,960 --> 00:21:13,599 down to the chow hall and they have these boxes 427 00:21:13,680 --> 00:21:18,599 stacked up behind the line clearly marked. It says Alaskan 428 00:21:18,799 --> 00:21:23,000 cod product of China, so it's not Alaskan cod, and 429 00:21:23,000 --> 00:21:28,200 then underneath it says not for human consumption, feed use only. 430 00:21:28,680 --> 00:21:29,880 I never touched this stuff. 431 00:21:29,960 --> 00:21:32,920 Speaker 2: Yes, it's so you can throw up from just the 432 00:21:32,960 --> 00:21:34,880 thought of it. I want to kind of finish by 433 00:21:34,920 --> 00:21:39,039 asking you this. There's millions of people are now watching 434 00:21:39,400 --> 00:21:44,039 your interviews online, hearing things that they never hear. 435 00:21:43,960 --> 00:21:45,559 Speaker 1: On cable news. 436 00:21:47,000 --> 00:21:51,079 Speaker 2: Is social media finally giving people like you a voice? 437 00:21:51,119 --> 00:21:56,160 I know it has for me that the establishment cannot silence. 438 00:21:56,640 --> 00:21:59,599 Or do you think it's just turned serious national security 439 00:21:59,599 --> 00:22:03,039 conversation into I'm going to quote the next viral clip 440 00:22:03,119 --> 00:22:04,880 before everybody moves on. 441 00:22:05,160 --> 00:22:06,559 Speaker 4: No, I think it's the former. 442 00:22:07,079 --> 00:22:11,519 Speaker 3: I think that podcasting is the future. I'll give you 443 00:22:11,559 --> 00:22:14,799 an example. I did I did. I have my own 444 00:22:14,839 --> 00:22:17,519 podcast called Briefing Room that I'm very proud of. 445 00:22:17,599 --> 00:22:18,160 Speaker 4: It's brand new. 446 00:22:18,200 --> 00:22:22,079 Speaker 3: I've only done three four episodes, and it's really taken 447 00:22:22,119 --> 00:22:24,640 off so I commented for a few minutes on the 448 00:22:24,640 --> 00:22:26,599 death of Lindsay Graham. The other day, I got one 449 00:22:26,640 --> 00:22:31,079 hundred and fifty eight thousand views MSNBC's commentary on Lindsay 450 00:22:31,119 --> 00:22:32,480 Graham fifty thousand. 451 00:22:32,880 --> 00:22:33,079 Speaker 1: Right. 452 00:22:33,759 --> 00:22:36,279 Speaker 3: I think people are tired of the mainstream media. They 453 00:22:36,319 --> 00:22:40,279 don't believe the mainstream media anymore. These these big outlets 454 00:22:40,279 --> 00:22:42,799 have an agenda, and they're looking for people that they 455 00:22:42,839 --> 00:22:46,160 can trust, people who know what they're talking about, and 456 00:22:46,200 --> 00:22:48,359 they have found shows like yours and nine. 457 00:22:48,680 --> 00:22:51,400 Speaker 2: You know, my initial Maya Kulpa podcast is over five 458 00:22:51,480 --> 00:22:55,279 hundred million downloads. Then my second one did over seven 459 00:22:55,319 --> 00:22:58,000 hundred million. See now you know those I put to 460 00:22:58,039 --> 00:23:00,640 the side. Now we're doing this, which is you know, 461 00:23:00,680 --> 00:23:04,000 when you know, you know, unleashed and like you it's 462 00:23:04,599 --> 00:23:07,400 really taking off. People are sick and tired. I know, 463 00:23:07,519 --> 00:23:10,440 I am. I can't watch the news anymore. 464 00:23:10,640 --> 00:23:12,519 Speaker 3: I ask you too, when was the last time you 465 00:23:12,559 --> 00:23:17,440 were invited onto CNN, MSNBC, Fox, Yeah. 466 00:23:17,240 --> 00:23:19,960 Speaker 1: Well it's been it's been a wild it's been a while, exactly. 467 00:23:20,200 --> 00:23:22,720 Speaker 2: I probably soon now get on Fox, the CNN or 468 00:23:22,839 --> 00:23:25,920 ms now because I'm constantly criticizing them. First of all, 469 00:23:25,920 --> 00:23:29,359 this back and forth, cackling between. It's all performance art. 470 00:23:29,559 --> 00:23:32,759 There's no real substance. They don't want to hear from 471 00:23:32,759 --> 00:23:35,119 people like yourself. They don't want to hear from people 472 00:23:35,200 --> 00:23:38,920 like me, people who actually have firsthand knowledge. 473 00:23:38,559 --> 00:23:39,359 Speaker 1: Of the situation. 474 00:23:39,880 --> 00:23:42,680 Speaker 2: Rather, they want to hear from somebody who's going to 475 00:23:42,720 --> 00:23:45,759 stick to the talking points that they want. And that's why, 476 00:23:45,799 --> 00:23:49,839 of course people on the left are now furious that 477 00:23:50,119 --> 00:23:52,359 you know, CNN is going to be sold and it's 478 00:23:52,359 --> 00:23:55,720 going to be part of that whole paramount deal. So 479 00:23:55,920 --> 00:23:59,640 why because you're going to now have maybe centrist or 480 00:24:00,160 --> 00:24:01,920 right of center idol and. 481 00:24:01,920 --> 00:24:04,160 Speaker 3: Then look at MS now, which is to be even worse. 482 00:24:04,400 --> 00:24:05,519 It's in a death spiral. 483 00:24:05,680 --> 00:24:08,359 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean the ratings are embarrassing. 484 00:24:08,559 --> 00:24:11,759 Speaker 2: Well, John, it's really a pleasure to me. Thank you 485 00:24:11,839 --> 00:24:15,599 so much, so much for joining me. This is fantastic 486 00:24:15,960 --> 00:24:18,319 love to be a guest on as we have millionship. 487 00:24:18,319 --> 00:24:20,599 By the way, just so you know, I brought a little. 488 00:24:20,400 --> 00:24:22,519 Speaker 1: Prop for myself. By the way, I didn't bring it. 489 00:24:22,519 --> 00:24:25,039 Speaker 2: It's always in my wallet instead of using my ID 490 00:24:25,200 --> 00:24:26,960 when I'm going I pull out my. 491 00:24:26,920 --> 00:24:30,119 Speaker 1: Old former prisoner I d card, right, I. 492 00:24:30,119 --> 00:24:32,839 Speaker 2: Go nowhere without it. You know, people are saying, are 493 00:24:32,880 --> 00:24:34,160 you really Michael Cohen. 494 00:24:34,200 --> 00:24:37,559 Speaker 3: I'm like, yeah, you have a really great attitude. I 495 00:24:37,640 --> 00:24:39,960 was so furious. I didn't realize how angry I was 496 00:24:39,960 --> 00:24:42,279 when I got home, but I was. Literally The first 497 00:24:42,279 --> 00:24:43,480 thing I did is today shredded me. 498 00:24:44,079 --> 00:24:45,880 Speaker 2: The only thing I realized on I got home is 499 00:24:45,960 --> 00:24:47,559 how much weight I actually lost. 500 00:24:48,559 --> 00:24:50,920 Speaker 1: Right, John, so nice to me. Thanks, thank you so much, 501 00:24:50,920 --> 00:24:52,400 and thank you for everything you're doing. 502 00:24:52,279 --> 00:24:53,480 Speaker 4: And thank you for what you're doing. 503 00:24:53,519 --> 00:24:57,240 Speaker 2: It's important, you know, John, Before actually I let you go, 504 00:24:57,640 --> 00:24:59,640 I understand also that you have a book that's going 505 00:24:59,680 --> 00:25:00,000 to come out. 506 00:25:00,160 --> 00:25:00,480 Speaker 1: As you know. 507 00:25:00,519 --> 00:25:03,160 Speaker 2: I also I wrote my first book while I was there, 508 00:25:03,279 --> 00:25:05,599 turned out to be a number one New York Times bestseller. 509 00:25:05,759 --> 00:25:08,680 So I wish you nothing but the same. Tell tell 510 00:25:08,720 --> 00:25:11,519 the audience about the book, what it's about, the title, 511 00:25:11,799 --> 00:25:13,519 When it's going to be released. 512 00:25:13,640 --> 00:25:16,440 Speaker 3: It's going to be released, I thinkast August the eleventh. 513 00:25:16,440 --> 00:25:23,440 It's called The Ultimate CIA Guide to Tactics Techniques. Something 514 00:25:24,240 --> 00:25:28,440 do your Ultimate Guide to CIA Skills, Tactics and Techniques. 515 00:25:28,519 --> 00:25:32,480 It's called the Ultimate Guide to CIA Skills, Tactics and Techniques. 516 00:25:32,519 --> 00:25:36,200 So it focuses on surveillance and surveillance detection, lying and 517 00:25:36,279 --> 00:25:39,759 lie detection and disappearing and living off the grid. But 518 00:25:39,960 --> 00:25:43,200 like you, I wrote a book in prison called Doing 519 00:25:43,279 --> 00:25:47,079 Time Like a Spy The CIA, How the CIA taught 520 00:25:47,119 --> 00:25:48,920 me to survive and thrive in prison. I had to 521 00:25:48,920 --> 00:25:51,119 write it in long hand, like I'm sure you did too. 522 00:25:51,200 --> 00:25:53,480 Speaker 2: I did, and by the way, with those not the 523 00:25:53,599 --> 00:25:55,160 cheapest worst pens you've ever. 524 00:25:55,039 --> 00:25:57,680 Speaker 3: See, the worst ever, And they made you pay for them, 525 00:25:57,839 --> 00:26:00,960 of course. And I wrote it in long hand repeatedly. 526 00:26:01,000 --> 00:26:04,640 The guards would seize my writing and destroy. 527 00:26:04,279 --> 00:26:06,279 Speaker 1: It smuggled out. 528 00:26:06,400 --> 00:26:08,559 Speaker 3: That's what I ended up doing, smuggling it out, which 529 00:26:08,640 --> 00:26:11,480 then caused an investigation. I told them to go screw themselves, 530 00:26:11,839 --> 00:26:13,400 and I won two literary awards. 531 00:26:13,400 --> 00:26:14,559 Speaker 4: I won the Penn First. 532 00:26:14,279 --> 00:26:17,720 Speaker 3: Amendment Award and the Forward Reviews Memoir of the Year. 533 00:26:17,839 --> 00:26:18,759 Speaker 4: So it was totally work. 534 00:26:18,839 --> 00:26:22,720 Speaker 1: You beat me again, John, Always great talking to you. 535 00:26:22,720 --> 00:26:25,160 Speaker 2: I really truly appreciate you joining me here on when 536 00:26:25,200 --> 00:26:30,240 you know, you know Unleashed. This podcast drops every single Tuesday, 537 00:26:30,240 --> 00:26:33,920 available wherever you get podcasts. Looking forward to joining you 538 00:26:34,000 --> 00:26:35,480 on yours again, John. 539 00:26:35,279 --> 00:26:37,440 Speaker 4: I can't wait to see you. Thanks so much. Great 540 00:26:37,440 --> 00:26:39,000 to see you, Thank you, Thank you