WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.520 --> 00:00:02.640 Hudson River Radio dot com. 2 00:00:02.960 --> 00:00:04.240 It beats listening to nothing. 3 00:00:05.080 --> 00:00:10.160 My goodness, being Frank, where the only way to be 4 00:00:11.080 --> 00:00:17.559 is Frank. Well everyone, and welcome to being Frank. We're 5 00:00:17.600 --> 00:00:21.480 the only way to be is Frank. I'm your host, FRANKL. Glona, 6 00:00:21.519 --> 00:00:23.559 and I'd like to thank you for joining us on 7 00:00:23.600 --> 00:00:27.960 what we like to call the Intelligent Conversation podcast, where 8 00:00:27.960 --> 00:00:30.920 no conversation is out of bounds and all points of 9 00:00:31.000 --> 00:00:34.159 view are welcome. We are recording live to take. We 10 00:00:34.200 --> 00:00:36.520 always give you a date so you have some context 11 00:00:36.719 --> 00:00:40.679 and relativity to what we're talking about. Is the second 12 00:00:41.280 --> 00:00:45.560 of August, you know. I chose the slogan intelligent conversation 13 00:00:45.719 --> 00:00:49.159 to describe this podcast as a response to the far 14 00:00:49.359 --> 00:00:53.960 too often acrimonious debate and blather that has seemingly replaced 15 00:00:54.079 --> 00:00:58.799 civil discourse, especially in a society that has become extremely 16 00:00:58.880 --> 00:01:03.039 fractured politically. I believe that we all have been guilty, 17 00:01:03.079 --> 00:01:07.000 at one time or another of raging on someone of 18 00:01:07.040 --> 00:01:10.439 a diametrically opposing point of view. I know that there 19 00:01:10.439 --> 00:01:13.159 have been times when it has taken great self control 20 00:01:13.200 --> 00:01:16.120 for me to not end the conversation with a single 21 00:01:16.120 --> 00:01:20.920 word idiot. This conflict has certainly been exacerbated by our 22 00:01:20.920 --> 00:01:26.719 reliance on the relative on anonymity and security of social media, 23 00:01:27.200 --> 00:01:31.560 and it's not related solely to personal conversation either. Just recently, 24 00:01:31.640 --> 00:01:35.719 former President Donald Trump had a particularly contentious interview with 25 00:01:35.799 --> 00:01:39.879 a panel of journalists at the NABJ conference. In fact, 26 00:01:40.239 --> 00:01:44.120 many including me, found it shocking. So in our quest 27 00:01:44.159 --> 00:01:47.439 for intelligent conversation, we have two great guests to explore 28 00:01:47.480 --> 00:01:51.879 the question can we return to civil discourse? And did 29 00:01:51.920 --> 00:01:55.439 we ever really have it in the first place. I 30 00:01:55.480 --> 00:01:58.040 call him the renaissance Man because he does so much. 31 00:01:58.079 --> 00:02:02.239 He's an author or musician, professor of Media at Fordam University, 32 00:02:02.280 --> 00:02:05.200 and so much more, including the author of the book 33 00:02:05.200 --> 00:02:08.479 In Radio Play Its Real Life, An Alternative History of 34 00:02:08.520 --> 00:02:12.400 the Beatles. He is also a frequent contributor to Being Frank. 35 00:02:12.759 --> 00:02:15.639 Welcome again, doctor Paul Levinson, Paul, thank you for joining 36 00:02:15.680 --> 00:02:16.599 us again. 37 00:02:17.120 --> 00:02:19.400 Well, my pleasure as always, you know. 38 00:02:19.319 --> 00:02:22.639 You're always welcome. Now to introduce my second guest, making 39 00:02:22.680 --> 00:02:25.639 his first appearance on Being Frank, and again this is 40 00:02:25.759 --> 00:02:30.080 very truncated and still impressive. Of course. Lance Strait is 41 00:02:30.080 --> 00:02:33.840 a professor of Communication and Media Studies at Fordham University 42 00:02:34.199 --> 00:02:38.319 and a trustee and president of the Institute of General Semantics. 43 00:02:38.800 --> 00:02:42.120 He is founder and past presidents of the Media Ecological 44 00:02:42.159 --> 00:02:45.919 Association and past presidents of the New York State Communication 45 00:02:46.080 --> 00:02:50.800 Association and the New York Society for General Semantics. Doctor 46 00:02:50.879 --> 00:02:54.159 Straits is the author of eleven books, including Brave New 47 00:02:54.159 --> 00:02:58.000 World Revisited, Mediacology and Approach to Understanding the Human Condition 48 00:02:58.479 --> 00:03:02.639 Concerning Communications, Epic Quests and There Were Excursions in the 49 00:03:02.719 --> 00:03:06.080 Human Life World and many more with more on the way. 50 00:03:06.719 --> 00:03:10.319 Here's the recipient of many awards, including the Media Ecology 51 00:03:10.400 --> 00:03:14.840 Association's Marshall McLuhan Award for Outstanding Book and the Walter J. 52 00:03:15.039 --> 00:03:19.599 On Award for Career Achievement in Scholarship in Eastern Communications, 53 00:03:20.000 --> 00:03:25.439 Distinguished Research Fellow Award, also the Global Listening Center's Outstanding 54 00:03:25.520 --> 00:03:29.360 Research Award and the New York State Communications John F. 55 00:03:29.439 --> 00:03:34.960 Wilson Fellow Award for Exceptional Scholarship, Leadership and Dedication in 56 00:03:35.000 --> 00:03:37.800 the field of Communications. Dr Strait, thank you for taking 57 00:03:37.840 --> 00:03:39.719 time to join us. 58 00:03:40.159 --> 00:03:41.960 Well, I'm happy to be here, but I have to 59 00:03:42.039 --> 00:03:45.120 say you said I was the author of Brave New 60 00:03:45.120 --> 00:03:50.520 World Revisited, and that's actually Aldus Huxley. The book I 61 00:03:50.560 --> 00:03:54.919 wrote was Amazing Ourselves to Death Neil Postman's Brave New 62 00:03:54.960 --> 00:03:57.680 World revisited. I just don't want to get you to 63 00:03:57.719 --> 00:04:01.759 get any kind of angry mess on that account. 64 00:04:01.879 --> 00:04:04.439 Thank you, we're pre considering it's our topic to the 65 00:04:04.479 --> 00:04:08.159 sea today. I greatly appreciate it. Yes, I did a 66 00:04:08.159 --> 00:04:11.479 little bit of editing, and I probably over edited at 67 00:04:11.520 --> 00:04:15.199 that particular point, so we really appreciate the corrections. You know, 68 00:04:15.280 --> 00:04:18.959 being accurate is important, especially for people like us, so 69 00:04:19.000 --> 00:04:22.720 I really appreciate that. Guys. I want a little a 70 00:04:22.759 --> 00:04:26.879 little bit of if I might just departure just for 71 00:04:26.920 --> 00:04:32.600 a second and get your comments on the breaking news 72 00:04:32.680 --> 00:04:36.839 just recently, the prisoner Exchange, if you will, and particularly 73 00:04:37.040 --> 00:04:39.879 your comments on the release of Wall Street Journal reporter 74 00:04:40.279 --> 00:04:44.160 Evan Gerceovich. Guys, I know both of you were storm 75 00:04:44.240 --> 00:04:46.480 supporters of the First Amendment, et cetera, so i'd like 76 00:04:46.519 --> 00:04:49.160 to know your feelings on that. 77 00:04:49.920 --> 00:04:50.199 Well. 78 00:04:50.279 --> 00:04:53.319 I mean, first of all, I'm not sure that we're 79 00:04:53.360 --> 00:04:57.519 both staunch supporters supporters of the First Amendment, at least 80 00:04:57.600 --> 00:05:01.399 not in the same way, so you know, I would 81 00:05:01.439 --> 00:05:05.560 just not make that assumption. But on that, you know, 82 00:05:05.560 --> 00:05:11.000 I think we're generally very pleased to see these folks released. 83 00:05:11.079 --> 00:05:14.639 And I understand the objection to never you know, the 84 00:05:14.680 --> 00:05:17.439 idea of never negotiating with terrorists, and as far as 85 00:05:17.439 --> 00:05:23.480 I'm concerned, Putin is a terrorist, and it's quite clear 86 00:05:24.120 --> 00:05:28.240 who the exchange is being made from. For that is 87 00:05:28.360 --> 00:05:32.399 the difference between the folks that we're getting back and 88 00:05:32.439 --> 00:05:34.639 the type of folks that he wanted back, you know, 89 00:05:34.720 --> 00:05:40.720 being assassin's murderers and other criminal types. But I think, 90 00:05:40.720 --> 00:05:42.639 you know, we see the same kind of thing when 91 00:05:42.800 --> 00:05:47.319 Israel makes a swap with say, you know, many of 92 00:05:47.360 --> 00:05:53.279 the Arab you know, generally terrorist organizations where they're very 93 00:05:53.360 --> 00:05:57.120 much one sided swaps where it's ten to one or 94 00:05:57.199 --> 00:06:01.279 fifty to one between folks who are taken hostage or 95 00:06:02.519 --> 00:06:07.160 prisoners of war in military sense, versus people who are 96 00:06:07.879 --> 00:06:10.879 arrested for terrorism, and maybe in some cases people who 97 00:06:10.879 --> 00:06:16.360 are wrongly arrested. But you know, certainly folks who have 98 00:06:16.399 --> 00:06:19.480 a legal system that they can work within. 99 00:06:21.560 --> 00:06:24.879 Thank you, Lance, Paul your feelings. 100 00:06:25.519 --> 00:06:27.800 Well, first, I want first I agree with everything that 101 00:06:27.920 --> 00:06:31.199 Lance just said, but I do want to add a 102 00:06:31.240 --> 00:06:32.079 couple of points. 103 00:06:32.720 --> 00:06:32.959 One. 104 00:06:33.839 --> 00:06:37.120 I'm sure that many, maybe even all of our listeners 105 00:06:37.199 --> 00:06:42.600 were watching last night when the plane landed in the 106 00:06:42.680 --> 00:06:45.920 United States, and there of course was Joe Biden and 107 00:06:46.040 --> 00:06:53.079 Kamala Harris and the families greeting these hostages who were 108 00:06:53.120 --> 00:06:56.839 held by this. You know, I think the closest example 109 00:06:57.839 --> 00:07:02.040 of an Adolph Hitler in our world today is indeed 110 00:07:02.120 --> 00:07:08.240 Vladimir Putin, and I don't make that comparison lightly. So 111 00:07:08.319 --> 00:07:10.279 it was here they are landing, and I have to 112 00:07:10.319 --> 00:07:15.720 say I was moved to tears watching that, and one 113 00:07:15.759 --> 00:07:18.879 point in particular, a lot of people, as we know, 114 00:07:19.079 --> 00:07:21.319 and you know, you and I have been talking about this, 115 00:07:21.839 --> 00:07:25.079 Frank for months now, and I've been talking to other 116 00:07:26.040 --> 00:07:34.720 people about it, the alleged decline of Joe Biden's cognitive capacities, 117 00:07:35.120 --> 00:07:37.720 and in particular, you know, some of our listeners may 118 00:07:37.720 --> 00:07:42.480 have heard of a syndrome called sundowning, which happens when 119 00:07:42.639 --> 00:07:46.399 sometimes people get old. They're okay during the day, but 120 00:07:46.959 --> 00:07:51.000 they really have a sharp decline in their cognition in 121 00:07:51.040 --> 00:07:55.639 the evening, hence the word sundowning. And I can't tell 122 00:07:55.680 --> 00:07:58.560 you how many people have pointed that out to me 123 00:07:59.279 --> 00:08:02.480 when I've came and I have been coming to Joe 124 00:08:02.519 --> 00:08:07.399 Biden's defense ever since the debate, and I have to say, 125 00:08:07.639 --> 00:08:12.079 you know, in fact, I posted something on Facebook book 126 00:08:12.120 --> 00:08:15.199 it was eleven fifty nine PM and I had just 127 00:08:15.360 --> 00:08:20.240 witnessed Joe Biden not only welcoming the hostages back, which 128 00:08:20.319 --> 00:08:24.680 was a wonderful moment, but basically fielding all kinds of 129 00:08:24.800 --> 00:08:29.600 questions from the media that went on for about ten 130 00:08:29.800 --> 00:08:33.519 or fifteen minutes. I don't think any of us right here, 131 00:08:34.200 --> 00:08:36.320 you know, in this podcast, could have done a better 132 00:08:36.440 --> 00:08:40.120 job than he did. So I know this is a 133 00:08:40.159 --> 00:08:45.480 slightly different topic, and I'm not unhappy that Kamala Harris 134 00:08:45.840 --> 00:08:49.639 will be the Democratic nominee, but I just want to 135 00:08:49.679 --> 00:08:52.960 say I'm very unhappy at the way that Joe Biden 136 00:08:53.240 --> 00:08:57.840 was hounded out and not really given a chance. 137 00:08:58.879 --> 00:09:02.120 Yeah, I appreciate your points of view. Part of our discussion, 138 00:09:02.200 --> 00:09:06.600 appreciating others points of view. I tend to agree with 139 00:09:06.639 --> 00:09:09.519 them as both stated by both of you, gentlemen, So 140 00:09:09.600 --> 00:09:11.720 that makes it a little bit easier. But that will 141 00:09:12.000 --> 00:09:14.120 be part of our discussion as we go forward. 142 00:09:15.519 --> 00:09:18.039 But maybe, Frank, just to your point that you know 143 00:09:18.159 --> 00:09:21.159 it isn't I think it is the right thing to 144 00:09:21.200 --> 00:09:25.639 do to get hostages back and to and for that 145 00:09:25.720 --> 00:09:29.720 to be the priority. And that's what happened in this instance. 146 00:09:30.399 --> 00:09:32.840 And you know, even if we have to give up 147 00:09:33.279 --> 00:09:38.039 these horrible, convicted criminals, it's worthwhile to get folks back. 148 00:09:38.080 --> 00:09:40.320 And I think your point was maybe we could ask 149 00:09:40.360 --> 00:09:42.080 what the hell they were doing there in the first 150 00:09:42.120 --> 00:09:45.840 place and why anyone would be there, but you know, 151 00:09:45.840 --> 00:09:49.159 we should set that judgment aside and just you know, 152 00:09:49.360 --> 00:09:53.720 understand that this is the right priority. And my analogy 153 00:09:53.759 --> 00:09:56.360 with Israel is along the same lines. And in fact, 154 00:09:56.399 --> 00:09:59.840 it's one reason why we can so many of us 155 00:09:59.840 --> 00:10:02.639 are critical of net and Yahoo is because he doesn't 156 00:10:02.679 --> 00:10:08.399 seem to have that priority, the priority of the hostages uppermost. 157 00:10:07.399 --> 00:10:08.559 In his mind. 158 00:10:08.759 --> 00:10:15.200 And that is really a violation of both the tradition 159 00:10:15.440 --> 00:10:20.120 within Israel, but also of you know, really an ethical 160 00:10:20.159 --> 00:10:21.799 standard that we ought to adhere to. 161 00:10:22.799 --> 00:10:24.360 So let me just let me let me just add 162 00:10:24.480 --> 00:10:28.559 that I as a professor and an author. You know, 163 00:10:28.559 --> 00:10:31.799 I'm beginning to lose count of how many times I've 164 00:10:31.840 --> 00:10:37.279 turned down invitations to go to Russia in person. And 165 00:10:37.320 --> 00:10:40.200 I don't usually turn those down. In fact, you know, 166 00:10:40.360 --> 00:10:44.200 like Lance, and you know, most academics, including you. I mean, 167 00:10:44.440 --> 00:10:48.759 we're thrilled when anybody invites us anywhere, and if they 168 00:10:48.840 --> 00:10:51.840 throw a little money, okay, take me up to dinner. 169 00:10:51.679 --> 00:10:52.399 That's good enough. 170 00:10:52.679 --> 00:10:56.080 But you know the fact, by the way, I'm beginning 171 00:10:56.159 --> 00:10:58.639 to feel this way about some southern states in the 172 00:10:58.720 --> 00:11:04.159 United States, like in Texas, but that's another story. But seriously, 173 00:11:04.279 --> 00:11:07.519 I wouldn't go to Russia. It's not you know, on 174 00:11:07.559 --> 00:11:11.080 the one hand, it would be very exciting, but I 175 00:11:11.120 --> 00:11:14.639 don't know who has read what or for all I know, 176 00:11:15.039 --> 00:11:19.799 after this podcast it'll come to Putin's attention, you know, 177 00:11:20.200 --> 00:11:22.240 the things that we're saying about him. 178 00:11:22.679 --> 00:11:25.360 So I think that is a serious issue. 179 00:11:25.399 --> 00:11:28.840 And on the other hand, I understand journalists wanting to 180 00:11:28.879 --> 00:11:33.399 do their job, but you know, frankly, I would almost 181 00:11:34.559 --> 00:11:38.080 you know, put a ban on going to Russia. The 182 00:11:38.120 --> 00:11:42.799 State Department should do that, because you're dealing with a criminal. 183 00:11:42.519 --> 00:11:44.159 Enterprise over there. 184 00:11:44.519 --> 00:11:47.480 I mean, you know, that term is often used to 185 00:11:47.519 --> 00:11:51.519 talk about Trump, who might want to be that way, 186 00:11:51.879 --> 00:11:53.919 but Putin more than wants to be that way. 187 00:11:54.039 --> 00:11:55.679 He has a regime. 188 00:11:56.120 --> 00:11:59.919 He runs the country the way a mob boss would 189 00:12:00.120 --> 00:12:04.720 run an outfit. And when you go a foul of 190 00:12:04.799 --> 00:12:07.879 a mob boss, Well, if you've seen any movies at all, 191 00:12:08.120 --> 00:12:12.559 you know what happens. So I think it's something that 192 00:12:12.679 --> 00:12:15.559 we really need to think about our own state department, 193 00:12:15.919 --> 00:12:19.639 that we have to be really really careful if any 194 00:12:19.840 --> 00:12:21.480 American goes to Russia. 195 00:12:22.799 --> 00:12:25.000 And again I agree, and it's kind of it does 196 00:12:25.039 --> 00:12:30.279 feed into our conversation for today because I did post 197 00:12:30.320 --> 00:12:32.600 something and it was very genuine we were talking about 198 00:12:32.639 --> 00:12:35.639 it before we came on the air, and genuine curiosity. 199 00:12:35.679 --> 00:12:38.000 As I mentioned, some people need to go there. They 200 00:12:38.000 --> 00:12:41.159 have family and family issues that need to be dealt 201 00:12:41.159 --> 00:12:44.679 with in person. I get that. Journalists, as you mentioned, 202 00:12:44.960 --> 00:12:47.559 and it's important. You know, it'd be easy to say 203 00:12:47.600 --> 00:12:49.960 we should just shut them off, but that's really not 204 00:12:50.039 --> 00:12:54.080 the purpose of journalism, which is to discover. So we 205 00:12:54.679 --> 00:12:57.960 lock ourselves out again in conversation for another day. But 206 00:12:58.159 --> 00:13:00.000 the point I'm trying to make was the amount of 207 00:13:00.399 --> 00:13:03.320 response I got from from many people, all of them 208 00:13:03.360 --> 00:13:05.960 who I like and respect, was all over the board. 209 00:13:06.039 --> 00:13:10.960 The spectrum of responses was incredible to to yes, I agree, 210 00:13:11.000 --> 00:13:14.039 I understand, So like you're missing the point, and then 211 00:13:14.159 --> 00:13:18.039 within that people going after each other and in the 212 00:13:18.120 --> 00:13:20.360 ways that you know, do you really need to get there. 213 00:13:20.360 --> 00:13:23.120 But let's develop that. But before I have a few questions, 214 00:13:23.159 --> 00:13:26.600 and I think maybe lay some background. First of all, 215 00:13:26.679 --> 00:13:29.240 let's want to come back to you and the Institute 216 00:13:29.240 --> 00:13:32.679 for General Semantics. It's a big word for most people. 217 00:13:32.799 --> 00:13:35.480 Fancy word, if you will, for most people. Break it 218 00:13:35.519 --> 00:13:40.360 down for us, what is it? Uh? You uh? Conceptualized it? 219 00:13:40.360 --> 00:13:42.919 Tell us about it, why it's important? What you do there? 220 00:13:43.879 --> 00:13:47.000 Sure? And uh, what's what's the big word? Do you 221 00:13:47.039 --> 00:13:48.840 mean institute or general? 222 00:13:49.440 --> 00:13:54.960 For most of my friends all fall into that category. 223 00:13:55.159 --> 00:14:00.480 Forgive me, I see, well that tells me a lot. Well, 224 00:14:01.000 --> 00:14:04.080 I'd be glad to explain it. And we just got 225 00:14:04.120 --> 00:14:08.120 off of a three day seminar in London where we 226 00:14:08.759 --> 00:14:10.600 you know, and it does take some time to really 227 00:14:10.600 --> 00:14:13.559 get into it in depth. But the idea of general 228 00:14:13.600 --> 00:14:18.919 semantics was founded by Alfred Korzipski back in nineteen thirty 229 00:14:18.919 --> 00:14:25.440 three and in his magnum opus called science Insanity. And 230 00:14:25.519 --> 00:14:30.759 it really boils down to understanding how we react and 231 00:14:30.799 --> 00:14:33.919 evaluate and make sense of the world. You know, how 232 00:14:33.919 --> 00:14:36.759 do we know what we know and how do we 233 00:14:36.799 --> 00:14:42.159 represent that in a faithful faction fashion, faithful to facts. 234 00:14:43.039 --> 00:14:47.080 So we look at the perhaps the best known saying 235 00:14:47.120 --> 00:14:50.240 in general semantics is the map is not the territory, 236 00:14:50.279 --> 00:14:53.000 which is understanding that, you know, first of all, what 237 00:14:53.080 --> 00:14:56.039 we perceive about the world is not what is actually 238 00:14:56.159 --> 00:14:59.000 out there, but we can be more or less accurate. 239 00:14:59.320 --> 00:15:01.639 And then the way that we describe the world is 240 00:15:01.679 --> 00:15:04.559 not the same as what's out there, and it's not 241 00:15:04.679 --> 00:15:07.720 even as the same as what we perceive about the world, 242 00:15:08.679 --> 00:15:12.360 but we can do better. And general semantics is about 243 00:15:12.679 --> 00:15:16.759 finding ways to do better, better ways of perceiving and 244 00:15:17.399 --> 00:15:21.120 talking about the world and evaluating the world. And you know, 245 00:15:21.200 --> 00:15:25.039 part of that is to understand the basic principle of 246 00:15:25.120 --> 00:15:28.559 non identity, that nothing is the same as anything else, 247 00:15:28.600 --> 00:15:32.759 and everything is constantly changing. But when we talk about things, 248 00:15:32.799 --> 00:15:36.840 we act as if they're static and stable and nothing 249 00:15:36.960 --> 00:15:41.759 dynamic is going on. And to understand, you know, conscious 250 00:15:41.799 --> 00:15:45.720 of abstracting the fact that we move, we take information 251 00:15:45.840 --> 00:15:48.480 from the environment, and we get more and more general, 252 00:15:48.559 --> 00:15:51.159 we put things into categories. We get more and more 253 00:15:51.519 --> 00:15:54.600 subjective as we do that, and we get further and 254 00:15:54.639 --> 00:15:58.759 further away from actual reality. As it is, so a 255 00:15:58.799 --> 00:16:01.879 lot of the problems. You know, in one sense, I 256 00:16:01.879 --> 00:16:03.799 could take this back and say, well, what do we 257 00:16:03.879 --> 00:16:07.519 mean by civility? And and I like the fact that 258 00:16:07.559 --> 00:16:10.919 you pointed out you asked, is are we really less civil? 259 00:16:11.440 --> 00:16:13.679 Because I think a lot of people would assume that 260 00:16:13.759 --> 00:16:17.320 we are, But it's not entirely clear that we are 261 00:16:17.360 --> 00:16:20.639 in fact less civil than we were before. And in 262 00:16:20.679 --> 00:16:23.840 a more concrete sense, are we less if we are? 263 00:16:24.120 --> 00:16:25.679 And I think a lot of us have the feeling, 264 00:16:25.759 --> 00:16:27.639 and we can go with that, we can talk in 265 00:16:27.679 --> 00:16:30.320 an imprecise way about that. You know, we feel like 266 00:16:30.399 --> 00:16:34.639 something's changed, but in what sense? And to whom I 267 00:16:34.639 --> 00:16:38.240 think people were probably a lot less civil, uh say, 268 00:16:38.279 --> 00:16:42.879 to African Americans one hundred years ago than they are today, 269 00:16:43.320 --> 00:16:47.919 So to whom also makes a difference. But so I 270 00:16:47.919 --> 00:16:51.120 would look at all of these these kinds of questions. 271 00:16:52.240 --> 00:16:57.799 But if we're talking about civility here in incommunication, you know, 272 00:16:57.799 --> 00:16:59.759 then at least one of the things is we have 273 00:16:59.840 --> 00:17:02.919 to be clear and what we're talking about, you know, 274 00:17:02.960 --> 00:17:06.039 what is it that we're referencing in the world. And 275 00:17:06.079 --> 00:17:08.119 when we stop doing that and we just start to 276 00:17:08.279 --> 00:17:13.039 talk to talk about things in these very vague categories 277 00:17:13.079 --> 00:17:17.160 and put people into categories of stereotypes and say you're 278 00:17:17.200 --> 00:17:19.799 a liberal or you're a maga, you know, or whatever, 279 00:17:19.880 --> 00:17:23.559 and we're just dismissing them left and right. We're bypassing, 280 00:17:23.599 --> 00:17:27.319 we're talking past each other. And what the best way 281 00:17:27.359 --> 00:17:30.519 to get past that is to go to specifics, go 282 00:17:30.640 --> 00:17:34.079 to what's going on. One of our great sayings, along 283 00:17:34.079 --> 00:17:36.319 with the map, is not the territory, and the word 284 00:17:36.400 --> 00:17:40.559 is not the thing it represents is the acronym WIGO, 285 00:17:41.039 --> 00:17:44.680 which stands for what is going on. That's the primary 286 00:17:44.759 --> 00:17:49.960 question to ask in any situation, what is going on specifically, concretely, 287 00:17:50.279 --> 00:17:51.480 what is going on here? 288 00:17:52.680 --> 00:17:55.000 Well, that's put that in mind. And you sent me 289 00:17:55.079 --> 00:17:58.079 an article on editorial that you recently wrote that I 290 00:17:58.119 --> 00:17:59.759 read was very detailed, and I want to take a 291 00:17:59.759 --> 00:18:02.359 little quote for me. It was a special edition of 292 00:18:02.440 --> 00:18:05.640 General Semantics and Politics, and it was titled a Double 293 00:18:07.160 --> 00:18:12.000 Double Bind of Rational Political Discourse. And in that you wrote, 294 00:18:12.039 --> 00:18:14.319 I have one quote, and I'd like you to elaborate 295 00:18:14.359 --> 00:18:15.880 on a little bit, if you would, because I think 296 00:18:15.920 --> 00:18:20.440 it's very relative to our conversation. Moreover, my purpose in 297 00:18:20.440 --> 00:18:25.000 this essay is to consider the relationship between democracy and reason, 298 00:18:25.200 --> 00:18:30.440 that is, between democratic politics and rational political discourse. As 299 00:18:30.480 --> 00:18:34.079 a product of the Enlightenment. Modern democracy merged out of 300 00:18:34.119 --> 00:18:38.759 a particular kind of semantic environment, a particular type of 301 00:18:38.880 --> 00:18:43.319 media environment. When that has happened as the semantic and 302 00:18:43.400 --> 00:18:47.240 media environments that gave birth to democracy have been changed 303 00:18:47.440 --> 00:18:51.039 and transformed, please explain that a little bit more detail. 304 00:18:51.079 --> 00:18:53.240 I think that's very much at the core of where 305 00:18:53.240 --> 00:18:53.880 we're at here. 306 00:18:54.440 --> 00:18:58.839 Well, sure again, I mean when we look at and 307 00:18:58.920 --> 00:19:02.519 we usually trace the roots of democracy to ancient Greece, 308 00:19:02.599 --> 00:19:06.759 and we're talking about people who, you know, culture that 309 00:19:06.960 --> 00:19:12.839 put reason and in that case, logic, rationality ahead of everything. 310 00:19:13.359 --> 00:19:17.559 And then we see modern democracy coming out of the Enlightenment. 311 00:19:17.960 --> 00:19:21.359 It's coming out of modern science and the idea that 312 00:19:21.400 --> 00:19:24.200 we can go out into the world and see things 313 00:19:24.240 --> 00:19:28.759 for ourselves and determine whether things are true or false, 314 00:19:28.799 --> 00:19:33.079 statements are true or false, or generalizations at least are falsifiable, 315 00:19:34.160 --> 00:19:37.519 That we can think in a rational way, and that 316 00:19:37.599 --> 00:19:41.400 democracy is dependent on that ability to act in a 317 00:19:41.599 --> 00:19:47.519 rational and relatively dispassionate way in your decision making. And 318 00:19:47.559 --> 00:19:49.599 that can work on two levels. I mean, I can 319 00:19:49.799 --> 00:19:52.759 do it in terms of self interest and ask is 320 00:19:52.799 --> 00:19:55.599 it good for me? And if it's good for me, 321 00:19:55.680 --> 00:19:58.000 I'm going to support it. You know, I can be selfish, 322 00:19:58.079 --> 00:20:00.759 you know, we call that enlightened self interest after all, 323 00:20:01.200 --> 00:20:03.400 or I can do that in a more kind of 324 00:20:03.480 --> 00:20:06.759 group minded sense and say is it good for my community, 325 00:20:06.880 --> 00:20:10.640 is it good for the collective, you know, society? And 326 00:20:11.200 --> 00:20:14.519 if so, you know, if I can make that rational determination, 327 00:20:14.960 --> 00:20:17.759 then I support that. And if you can't give me 328 00:20:17.839 --> 00:20:20.480 evidence for why that's the case, then I can say 329 00:20:20.480 --> 00:20:24.480 that we need a different kind kind of policy. So 330 00:20:24.839 --> 00:20:28.279 and and all of that comes out of very specific 331 00:20:28.519 --> 00:20:31.880 media environments. And by the way, Frank, I mean in 332 00:20:31.920 --> 00:20:35.960 that article, I also kind of tie this together that 333 00:20:36.359 --> 00:20:39.640 democracy is sort of like the tip of the iceberg, 334 00:20:39.799 --> 00:20:44.759 and it's founded on really more basic is rule of law. 335 00:20:44.920 --> 00:20:48.480 And it's something that we're also agonizing about today. But 336 00:20:49.039 --> 00:20:52.799 rule of law is very much about being dispassionate and 337 00:20:53.039 --> 00:20:58.079 rational and controlling your semantic environment and saying, you know, yes, 338 00:20:58.200 --> 00:21:01.440 this counts as evidence. Yes, this is a fact, No, 339 00:21:01.640 --> 00:21:06.039 this is opinion. Can you distinguish between them? And this 340 00:21:06.160 --> 00:21:08.720 is a fact based on what you've observed. This is 341 00:21:08.759 --> 00:21:12.240 a report that someone else has said that you yourself 342 00:21:12.279 --> 00:21:15.680 have not observed. That's an important distinction. This is an 343 00:21:15.720 --> 00:21:19.920 inference you're jumping to. You're assuming that this is true, 344 00:21:19.920 --> 00:21:24.000 but you don't actually have the factual basis to determine. 345 00:21:24.160 --> 00:21:28.000 Making these kind of determinations is very much at the 346 00:21:28.079 --> 00:21:31.359 heart of that. So we go from there that both 347 00:21:31.359 --> 00:21:34.680 of these are founded on a sense and even the 348 00:21:35.200 --> 00:21:39.480 ideal of justice, which I think is paramount, they're founded 349 00:21:39.559 --> 00:21:43.559 on this notion of reason, that we can act based 350 00:21:43.559 --> 00:21:48.400 on reason rather than on other factors. But that these 351 00:21:48.480 --> 00:21:52.640 arise out of cultures in which literacy has taken root. 352 00:21:52.960 --> 00:21:55.480 And again, if we talk about rule of law, or 353 00:21:55.599 --> 00:22:01.799 go back to say Babylon with their syllabic form of writing, 354 00:22:01.920 --> 00:22:05.440 and then the ancient Israelites with the first alphabet, and 355 00:22:05.519 --> 00:22:09.839 ancient Greece with their alphabet, and then the modern form 356 00:22:10.000 --> 00:22:15.400 coming out of typographic literacy after Gutenberg introduces his printing press. 357 00:22:15.720 --> 00:22:19.079 So we create a specific kind of media environment and 358 00:22:19.200 --> 00:22:24.240 semantic environment in which rational discourse can thrive. And then 359 00:22:24.279 --> 00:22:27.359 we get to the electronic media. And this was the 360 00:22:27.440 --> 00:22:33.400 point where our both poemized former professor Neil Postman, you know, 361 00:22:33.440 --> 00:22:37.599 made the point of amusing ourselves to death that in 362 00:22:38.039 --> 00:22:42.319 with electronic media and especially with television and it's undermining 363 00:22:42.920 --> 00:22:50.680 rational discourse in favor of amusement, entertainment, drama, and the 364 00:22:50.720 --> 00:22:57.119 sort of emotional responses to to politics. And that means 365 00:22:57.160 --> 00:23:02.519 that rational discourse is becomes problematic in our time, and 366 00:23:03.039 --> 00:23:06.640 that is it really raises the question can we have 367 00:23:06.759 --> 00:23:12.559 democracy without that as the ruling form of discourse? And 368 00:23:12.599 --> 00:23:13.920 it's not here that we can. 369 00:23:14.559 --> 00:23:16.720 Let's bring Paul and I'll pull you and I have 370 00:23:16.759 --> 00:23:18.680 a question. You can have a list of great questions. 371 00:23:18.680 --> 00:23:21.279 I want to get a little relative to what Lance 372 00:23:21.359 --> 00:23:23.279 just said. So please, I know you have you want 373 00:23:23.279 --> 00:23:24.160 to say something right now? 374 00:23:24.200 --> 00:23:25.359 Please do Thanks. 375 00:23:25.440 --> 00:23:26.880 Well, I just want to get back to what I 376 00:23:26.880 --> 00:23:32.359 think is really the crucial point about civility in a democracy, 377 00:23:32.799 --> 00:23:36.720 and Lance explicitly mentioned it. 378 00:23:37.599 --> 00:23:40.759 Who deserves our civility? 379 00:23:41.279 --> 00:23:46.440 And the very asking of that question assume as don't 380 00:23:46.480 --> 00:23:49.160 ask the question if you think your answer is going 381 00:23:49.240 --> 00:23:53.880 to be a pat Well, everyone deserves And I think 382 00:23:53.880 --> 00:23:58.119 that most people would agree, no, everyone does not deserve 383 00:23:58.319 --> 00:24:01.559 our civility. But I think that we can help clarify 384 00:24:01.599 --> 00:24:05.039 the situation by pointing out, for example, and I often 385 00:24:05.079 --> 00:24:10.759 think about this as a professor, I have courses in 386 00:24:10.799 --> 00:24:17.079 which we talk about very controversial political topics. And it 387 00:24:17.160 --> 00:24:19.599 occurred to me a long time ago, because I've been 388 00:24:19.640 --> 00:24:28.200 doing this for many years, that students deserve a professor's civility. 389 00:24:28.359 --> 00:24:34.680 They're paying tuition, they're taking a course, they are entitled 390 00:24:35.079 --> 00:24:39.039 whatever their point of view is, whatever their political point 391 00:24:39.079 --> 00:24:42.119 of view is, even if they are a Trump supporter. 392 00:24:42.519 --> 00:24:47.720 And I've had students who are Trump supporters. But I'll 393 00:24:47.839 --> 00:24:51.920 make this very interesting point. I was, I think I 394 00:24:52.079 --> 00:24:56.279 was one hundred percent civil to them in our classrooms. 395 00:24:56.880 --> 00:25:05.519 But relationships continue very often after the university relationship has concluded. 396 00:25:05.920 --> 00:25:10.960 And so I became friends with some of these people 397 00:25:11.039 --> 00:25:14.599 on Facebook and other systems, and you know, I have 398 00:25:14.680 --> 00:25:17.359 to tell you, and this goes back to twenty sixteen. 399 00:25:18.160 --> 00:25:22.759 I had to unfriended and block some people former students 400 00:25:22.799 --> 00:25:26.640 of mine, because they were saying outrageous things back then 401 00:25:26.720 --> 00:25:31.640