WEBVTT 1 00:00:01.840 --> 00:00:02.439 What's going on? 2 00:00:02.480 --> 00:00:02.919 Everybody? 3 00:00:02.919 --> 00:00:08.759 Welcome to another episode of Adventures in DevOps. Warren joining 4 00:00:08.759 --> 00:00:11.320 me again. I keep making you feel like the new guy. 5 00:00:11.359 --> 00:00:12.599 But it's been like, what a year. 6 00:00:12.439 --> 00:00:16.839 Now, almost that long, and I've got my I got 7 00:00:16.839 --> 00:00:20.280 my back prepared. It was a recent well I don't 8 00:00:20.280 --> 00:00:21.559 want to spoil my pick, so I'm not going to 9 00:00:21.600 --> 00:00:24.039 say what it is. But the conclusion is that AI 10 00:00:24.199 --> 00:00:27.079 may be making us stupid. The truth is that AI 11 00:00:27.719 --> 00:00:30.320 has a huge decrease on our critical thinking or how 12 00:00:30.399 --> 00:00:36.079 much we're utilizing it and not necessarily training that skill, 13 00:00:36.640 --> 00:00:39.840 and this could be the beginning of the downfall of humanity. 14 00:00:39.920 --> 00:00:41.520 And that's all I'm gonna say. 15 00:00:41.719 --> 00:00:44.520 I don't know. I sort of take like issue with 16 00:00:44.600 --> 00:00:47.039 that because I remember hearing the same thing, like my 17 00:00:47.119 --> 00:00:49.119 teacher is telling me all about spell check, like, oh, 18 00:00:49.119 --> 00:00:50.960 you're not going to have a computer in your pocket, 19 00:00:51.039 --> 00:00:53.840 you need to get over this dyslexia thing. And as 20 00:00:53.880 --> 00:00:55.799 it turns out, I do have a computer in my pocket, 21 00:00:55.840 --> 00:00:57.679 and no, I still do not know it as well. 22 00:00:59.119 --> 00:01:01.439 We're fine. The skill set se ball, but so it's 23 00:01:01.439 --> 00:01:02.679 gonna be okay everybody. 24 00:01:03.039 --> 00:01:06.000 The same thing happened with calculators as well. But I'll 25 00:01:06.000 --> 00:01:08.280 say more about that at the end of the episode. 26 00:01:09.040 --> 00:01:13.400 Right on, Hi, Jillian, welcome. Hello, all right, this is 27 00:01:13.439 --> 00:01:16.120 going to be a cool conversation. Joining us today, we 28 00:01:16.239 --> 00:01:20.560 have the founder and CEO of Warp the Warp Terminal, 29 00:01:20.920 --> 00:01:24.239 Zach Lloyd. Zach, welcome, I'm excited to be here. 30 00:01:24.280 --> 00:01:25.079 Thanks for having me. 31 00:01:25.599 --> 00:01:28.239 I'm excited to have you on here. And just to 32 00:01:29.079 --> 00:01:33.000 pick your brain about this because I first saw the 33 00:01:33.040 --> 00:01:37.599 Warp Terminal. It's been several years now, so you've been 34 00:01:37.640 --> 00:01:41.000 working on this for a while, and it was just like, 35 00:01:41.879 --> 00:01:44.079 at first, it was so confusing to me because I 36 00:01:44.120 --> 00:01:46.719 was like, wait, this isn't what my terminals supposed to do. 37 00:01:46.879 --> 00:01:50.280 It's it's like offering up stuff like how do I 38 00:01:50.359 --> 00:01:50.920 trust this? 39 00:01:51.079 --> 00:01:53.239 So before we dig into that. 40 00:01:53.239 --> 00:01:56.799 Tell us tell our listeners a little bit about warp 41 00:01:56.879 --> 00:01:59.079 and and what it does. 42 00:01:59.120 --> 00:02:05.519 And yeah, so Warp it's a reimagination of the terminal. 43 00:02:06.599 --> 00:02:09.000 You can use it like a regular terminal, so you 44 00:02:09.120 --> 00:02:11.639 drop it in and use it in place of I 45 00:02:11.639 --> 00:02:13.560 don't know whatever you're currently using, if you're a mac 46 00:02:13.639 --> 00:02:16.919 I term or just the stock terminal app. The idea 47 00:02:17.000 --> 00:02:20.240 behind it is that it has a much more sort 48 00:02:20.280 --> 00:02:24.400 of user friendly user experience, so you know, basic stuff 49 00:02:24.439 --> 00:02:30.400 like the mouths works, for instance, but it's also increasingly 50 00:02:30.879 --> 00:02:35.240 it's about being intelligent, and so when you use WARP, 51 00:02:35.319 --> 00:02:37.680 the main distinguishing thing these days is that you don't 52 00:02:37.719 --> 00:02:40.879 have to enter command, so you can just instruct the 53 00:02:40.960 --> 00:02:43.840 terminal in English, tell it what you wanted to do, 54 00:02:43.960 --> 00:02:46.520 and it will sort of solve your problem for you 55 00:02:46.560 --> 00:02:51.879 by translating your wishes into commands using AI, and it 56 00:02:51.960 --> 00:02:54.560 looks up whatever context it needs and kind of guide 57 00:02:54.560 --> 00:02:57.319 you through whatever task you're doing, whether it's a coding 58 00:02:57.360 --> 00:03:00.479 task or a DevOps task or setting up a new project. 59 00:03:00.599 --> 00:03:04.120 So it's a totally different way of using the command 60 00:03:04.159 --> 00:03:07.159 line that I think it's like pretty fun to use 61 00:03:07.240 --> 00:03:11.080 and definitely more powerful than your standard terminal. And like 62 00:03:11.400 --> 00:03:13.400 we're kind of having an internal debate at this point 63 00:03:13.439 --> 00:03:15.199 about whether or not it's even right to call it 64 00:03:15.240 --> 00:03:19.960 a terminal because it's so fundamentally different from what you 65 00:03:20.000 --> 00:03:22.240 know that people expect when they use a terminal, but 66 00:03:22.639 --> 00:03:25.120 it does work. It's like I think a really really 67 00:03:25.599 --> 00:03:27.039 nice to use terminal as well. 68 00:03:29.039 --> 00:03:32.120 Yeah, for sure, Like the terminal features are definitely all 69 00:03:32.599 --> 00:03:35.039 right there and ready to go, and then it just keeps. 70 00:03:36.199 --> 00:03:39.240 I think it's really a cool way to get used 71 00:03:39.240 --> 00:03:41.520 to it is just drop it in as your replacement terminal, 72 00:03:42.120 --> 00:03:44.240 and then you can start picking and choosing like all 73 00:03:44.240 --> 00:03:48.159 of these other things that it has as you, as 74 00:03:48.199 --> 00:03:49.719 you get comfortable with it. 75 00:03:50.960 --> 00:03:52.560 I want to say I really like that it uses 76 00:03:52.599 --> 00:03:54.479 the mouse because I have like a bit of a 77 00:03:54.520 --> 00:03:56.879 horror story of trying to get somebody set up with them, 78 00:03:56.960 --> 00:03:58.960 and I felt like very proud of myself, like oh 79 00:03:58.960 --> 00:04:01.599 look I got the scientist using them, and then they 80 00:04:01.599 --> 00:04:03.439 were like, great, how do I use a mouse? And 81 00:04:03.479 --> 00:04:06.560 I was like, oh no, So I think I think 82 00:04:06.599 --> 00:04:07.400 that's a nice feature. 83 00:04:07.879 --> 00:04:09.400 The other thing that it will help you do is 84 00:04:09.520 --> 00:04:12.960 figure out how to quit them if you end up VIM. 85 00:04:15.159 --> 00:04:16.879 It's not what we're trying to do here. 86 00:04:17.160 --> 00:04:20.160 Which is what it's one of our most popular features 87 00:04:20.240 --> 00:04:22.000 is you could ask the AI I had to quit them. 88 00:04:22.040 --> 00:04:24.439 It's very funny because people people do end up in 89 00:04:24.480 --> 00:04:26.759 there and they're like, what, oh. 90 00:04:26.680 --> 00:04:27.959 You mean, like quit the application? 91 00:04:28.120 --> 00:04:30.000 Not like I quit the application yet, not. 92 00:04:29.920 --> 00:04:34.600 Like quit the addiction. Okay, No, people love them. 93 00:04:34.759 --> 00:04:38.519 Now that's a twelve step program for that ward it is. 94 00:04:39.120 --> 00:04:40.879 They need a new one. They need twenty steps. 95 00:04:42.279 --> 00:04:46.920 Cool, So, how long have you been building WARPD. 96 00:04:46.959 --> 00:04:50.920 We've been at it for a while, so started the 97 00:04:51.000 --> 00:04:54.399 company started during COVID SO twenty like the middle of 98 00:04:54.439 --> 00:05:01.480 twenty twenty, and we first launched something publicly in twenty 99 00:05:01.879 --> 00:05:07.480 twenty one. And it's just sort of evolved from something 100 00:05:07.480 --> 00:05:11.160 where the main value initially was, hey, let's make this 101 00:05:11.360 --> 00:05:14.800 tool a little bit easier to use and like fix 102 00:05:14.839 --> 00:05:18.560 some of the UX into something that as much richer 103 00:05:18.600 --> 00:05:21.959 it is, especially when chat chupt came out, and we 104 00:05:21.959 --> 00:05:23.600 were even doing some AI stuff before that. 105 00:05:23.680 --> 00:05:26.079 But they've been working on it for a while now. 106 00:05:27.439 --> 00:05:34.560 Right on what's the what's the thought process that goes 107 00:05:34.680 --> 00:05:39.800 into figuring out how to integrate AI into this? 108 00:05:42.360 --> 00:05:44.920 Yeah, so we went through a bunch of different stages. 109 00:05:45.000 --> 00:05:48.079 So the first, the first sort of stage of AI 110 00:05:48.120 --> 00:05:53.519 and warp was essentially like translate English into a command 111 00:05:53.920 --> 00:05:56.560 so you could bring up this little thing and it 112 00:05:56.600 --> 00:06:01.720 actually predated chatchupt. Use something called codex, which was a 113 00:06:01.920 --> 00:06:04.680 I think an open AI like coding API, and you 114 00:06:04.720 --> 00:06:08.800 could be like, you know, search my files for this 115 00:06:08.879 --> 00:06:11.759 specific term and it might generate like a fine command 116 00:06:12.040 --> 00:06:14.600 or a rep command, something like that, and it's very 117 00:06:14.680 --> 00:06:17.279 much like one to one English to command translation. 118 00:06:18.040 --> 00:06:24.519 The next thing that we did was when chat chikut. 119 00:06:24.399 --> 00:06:25.839 Came out, we did what I think a lot of 120 00:06:25.879 --> 00:06:27.839 apps did at that time, which was like put a 121 00:06:27.959 --> 00:06:30.399 chat panel into warp and so you could have a 122 00:06:30.439 --> 00:06:33.800 sort of chat panel on the side where you know, 123 00:06:33.879 --> 00:06:36.160 you could ask coding questions. You could be like, how 124 00:06:36.160 --> 00:06:38.800 do I set up you know, a new Python repo 125 00:06:38.920 --> 00:06:40.639 with these dependencies, and we give it to you as 126 00:06:40.639 --> 00:06:43.279 a chat and then it's sort of like a copy 127 00:06:43.279 --> 00:06:45.920 paste type experience where you would take what was in 128 00:06:46.000 --> 00:06:48.279 the chat and move it into the terminal And that 129 00:06:48.439 --> 00:06:50.959 was cool, but kind of I would say, like limited 130 00:06:51.399 --> 00:06:53.040 extra utility compared. 131 00:06:52.720 --> 00:06:54.600 To just like doing it in chat GPT. 132 00:06:56.360 --> 00:07:01.199 The biggest change that we made was basically the idea 133 00:07:01.279 --> 00:07:06.240 that the terminal input where people type commands also could 134 00:07:06.319 --> 00:07:10.839 be used directly as a conversational input to work with 135 00:07:10.920 --> 00:07:15.000 an AI, and that the AI itself would end up 136 00:07:15.040 --> 00:07:17.480 in like sort of intersperse in the terminal session. 137 00:07:17.480 --> 00:07:19.079 And we call this agent mode. 138 00:07:19.439 --> 00:07:22.160 And so in this world, it's not just that you 139 00:07:22.360 --> 00:07:25.199 chat with it, it's that you tell it what to do, 140 00:07:25.839 --> 00:07:29.560 and it's able on its own to invoke commands to 141 00:07:30.040 --> 00:07:33.199 kind of like gather the context that it needs help 142 00:07:33.240 --> 00:07:35.160 you do a thing. So, for instance, if I was like, 143 00:07:35.800 --> 00:07:37.720 go back to that same example, like help me set 144 00:07:37.759 --> 00:07:41.319 up a Python repo with these dependencies, instead of doing 145 00:07:41.319 --> 00:07:42.920 it in a chat panel, which we got rid of, 146 00:07:43.240 --> 00:07:46.120 you just type that into the terminal input and we. 147 00:07:46.160 --> 00:07:48.399 Detect that you're typing English and not a command. 148 00:07:48.879 --> 00:07:52.279 And when you hit enter, it follows up and says like, okay, 149 00:07:52.399 --> 00:07:54.319 like what directory do you want this saying? And you 150 00:07:54.399 --> 00:07:57.360 tell it what directory and then it will say it'll 151 00:07:57.439 --> 00:08:00.480 make the directory for you, It'll CD into it, create 152 00:08:00.519 --> 00:08:04.560 the gitripo, it'll do all the pip install, it will 153 00:08:04.959 --> 00:08:07.519 even generate the initial scaffolding of the code. 154 00:08:07.839 --> 00:08:10.120 If it hits an error, it can debug its own error. 155 00:08:10.439 --> 00:08:13.519 And all of this is happening within your terminal session. 156 00:08:13.560 --> 00:08:15.720 And so you know, you get to a point where 157 00:08:15.720 --> 00:08:19.319 it's like you're actually driving the terminal a little bit 158 00:08:19.319 --> 00:08:22.560 more in English than you are in commands, and it's 159 00:08:22.639 --> 00:08:24.959 it's kind of crazy how it's changing how people use 160 00:08:24.959 --> 00:08:28.240 the terminal. Like I was just looking at this yesterday, 161 00:08:28.319 --> 00:08:31.480 like in warp. Now like a quarter of what is 162 00:08:31.519 --> 00:08:34.279 going on in the terminal sessions is actually just English 163 00:08:34.360 --> 00:08:36.200 and AI generating commands. 164 00:08:35.840 --> 00:08:38.919 And not people typing CD and LS anymore. 165 00:08:39.039 --> 00:08:41.159 So that was the sort of evolution, so from a 166 00:08:41.320 --> 00:08:43.799 very bolt on thing to something where it's like the 167 00:08:43.799 --> 00:08:47.960 actual fundamental experience of how you use the tools has 168 00:08:48.039 --> 00:08:48.720 changed a bunch. 169 00:08:50.840 --> 00:08:53.840 Yeah, so you're completely changing the interaction there. Instead of 170 00:08:53.879 --> 00:08:56.440 saying how do I just saying go do it. 171 00:08:57.000 --> 00:09:02.600 Exactly exactly, And that actually takes like developers don't necessarily 172 00:09:02.639 --> 00:09:05.919 think to do that. They're very much in the like, okay, 173 00:09:06.639 --> 00:09:08.679 let me google this, let me go to stack overflow 174 00:09:09.639 --> 00:09:12.960 type of mindset, and it's a totally new behavior if 175 00:09:12.960 --> 00:09:14.679 you're a developer to just be like I'm just going 176 00:09:14.720 --> 00:09:17.840 to tell the computer what to do. It's a little 177 00:09:17.879 --> 00:09:20.960 bit scary because like, what's your terminal and it's like 178 00:09:20.960 --> 00:09:23.120 now the computer is just like doing stuff in your terminal. 179 00:09:23.559 --> 00:09:29.639 But I do think that's the future of how development, DevOps, 180 00:09:29.720 --> 00:09:31.080 whatever you're doing is developer. 181 00:09:31.120 --> 00:09:32.159 It's going to move from this. 182 00:09:32.200 --> 00:09:34.480 Like let me run a bunch of queries or let 183 00:09:34.519 --> 00:09:36.159 me like open up a bunch of files and hand 184 00:09:36.159 --> 00:09:38.000 out of things, to a world where you're just sort 185 00:09:38.039 --> 00:09:42.440 of like, hey, let me actually tell my smart AI 186 00:09:42.960 --> 00:09:45.639 whatever you want to call it, assistant agent whatever, to 187 00:09:45.759 --> 00:09:46.879 start me on this task. 188 00:09:47.080 --> 00:09:49.440 And the you know, the. 189 00:09:49.159 --> 00:09:55.320 The agent will loop me in get more info, you know, 190 00:09:56.399 --> 00:09:58.840 you know, leverage me when there's ambiguity resolve. But it's 191 00:09:58.879 --> 00:10:01.200 like it's like going to be an imperative I'm telling 192 00:10:01.200 --> 00:10:04.799 it what to do way of working. And like the 193 00:10:04.879 --> 00:10:08.080 cool thing about the terminal for doing that is like 194 00:10:08.840 --> 00:10:10.840 that's kind of what the terminal is set up for. 195 00:10:11.000 --> 00:10:12.879 If you think about it, it's like the terminal is 196 00:10:12.919 --> 00:10:15.519 set up for users to tell the computer what to do. 197 00:10:16.120 --> 00:10:18.960 It's just that we're like upping the level of abstraction 198 00:10:19.159 --> 00:10:22.120 from you telling it in terms of like grap and 199 00:10:22.200 --> 00:10:25.159 fine and cdnls to telling it at the level of 200 00:10:25.200 --> 00:10:25.519 like a. 201 00:10:25.519 --> 00:10:28.200 Task what you wanted to do. And so that's like the. 202 00:10:28.240 --> 00:10:31.679 Vision that we're building towards right on. 203 00:10:31.799 --> 00:10:33.840 I think it's a really great analogy, you know, because 204 00:10:33.840 --> 00:10:36.159 we've seen that in other areas of software development, where 205 00:10:36.200 --> 00:10:40.879 you just keep abstracting things away more and more, yep, 206 00:10:41.360 --> 00:10:44.799 and coding at a higher level. But this is one 207 00:10:44.840 --> 00:10:49.080 of the few projects where you're actually doing that outside 208 00:10:49.120 --> 00:10:52.799 of doing it at the like the task level. Rather 209 00:10:52.840 --> 00:10:53.960 than at the coding level. 210 00:10:54.519 --> 00:10:59.080 Correct, and like we are so you can you can 211 00:10:59.120 --> 00:11:02.559 code and warp. I don't know if did you all 212 00:11:02.600 --> 00:11:05.240 see the cloud code? Have you played with that at all? 213 00:11:06.159 --> 00:11:09.080 I have a little Yeah, so cloud code. 214 00:11:08.960 --> 00:11:12.519 Is super interesting from our perspective because it's it's uh, 215 00:11:12.639 --> 00:11:15.519 it's all terminal based, and it's all this imperative like 216 00:11:16.120 --> 00:11:19.159 you run a terminal program, you tell the you tell 217 00:11:19.320 --> 00:11:22.200 cloud code like, hey, you know, make this change for me, 218 00:11:24.159 --> 00:11:28.159 and it skips the file editor and id entirely to 219 00:11:28.159 --> 00:11:31.600 do coding stuff. And so we're also we have very 220 00:11:31.639 --> 00:11:35.000 similar feature in Warp. It's not it's access that you 221 00:11:35.039 --> 00:11:37.360 don't run a program within the terminal, You just tell 222 00:11:37.440 --> 00:11:40.240 the terminal what to do. But I think it's interesting 223 00:11:40.519 --> 00:11:43.519 in terms of like the types of tasks that you 224 00:11:43.559 --> 00:11:47.960 can do and if you even look at like have 225 00:11:48.039 --> 00:11:50.639 you all used Cursor and Windsurf those types of apps 226 00:11:50.720 --> 00:11:51.360 do any coding? 227 00:11:52.639 --> 00:11:53.399 Yeah a little bit. 228 00:11:54.159 --> 00:11:57.559 So yeah in those apps, Like the sort of initial 229 00:11:57.600 --> 00:11:59.440 feature that was like the magic feature and this is 230 00:11:59.440 --> 00:12:05.240 true forgetting Copilot two, was like it will do great 231 00:12:05.279 --> 00:12:07.039 code completions for you, So it gives you this goes 232 00:12:07.120 --> 00:12:09.840 to text as you're typing and it sort of completes 233 00:12:09.879 --> 00:12:13.399 your thought. And the sort of thing that they're building 234 00:12:13.399 --> 00:12:16.399 out now is also it's much more like a chat 235 00:12:16.440 --> 00:12:21.000 panel within those apps, where you can tell the computer 236 00:12:21.080 --> 00:12:23.399 what to do and it generates code dips, and they're 237 00:12:23.440 --> 00:12:28.039 creating something that looks an awful lot like a terminal interaction, but. 238 00:12:28.039 --> 00:12:28.960 Within the code editor. 239 00:12:29.000 --> 00:12:32.000 And so I do think there's this general shift that's 240 00:12:32.039 --> 00:12:35.159 going on for coding, and I think it's also going 241 00:12:35.200 --> 00:12:39.639 to really impact people who are doing production DevOps basically 242 00:12:39.679 --> 00:12:43.600 any type of interaction with systems where you just sort 243 00:12:43.600 --> 00:12:46.159 of start by telling the computer what to do somehow. 244 00:12:46.759 --> 00:12:49.159 So it's pretty neat, pretty neat to see. 245 00:12:50.639 --> 00:12:53.360 So I really like this because I spend a lot 246 00:12:53.399 --> 00:12:56.840 of my days trying to convince biologists that, like, you 247 00:12:56.919 --> 00:12:58.600 need to be able to use the terminal at least 248 00:12:58.639 --> 00:13:00.679 a little bit, and it's always touch a tough sell 249 00:13:00.879 --> 00:13:02.720 because being like, well I'll go over here and take 250 00:13:02.759 --> 00:13:05.879 this Linux class is like not not what they want 251 00:13:05.919 --> 00:13:08.200 to be doing. Let's say, so just being able to 252 00:13:08.200 --> 00:13:10.720 say why not, just in English and it will at 253 00:13:10.759 --> 00:13:13.080 least get you to the directory and install your Python 254 00:13:13.240 --> 00:13:16.080 environment and do this kind of stuff is just so 255 00:13:16.200 --> 00:13:19.159 much nicer than what I've been doing in the past, 256 00:13:19.440 --> 00:13:20.960 and I do I like this. This is great. 257 00:13:21.960 --> 00:13:24.639 Yeah, I mean it's it's the other cool thing for 258 00:13:24.720 --> 00:13:28.879 people who who are it's not their natural environment, let's say, 259 00:13:28.919 --> 00:13:30.240 and like they have to use it. 260 00:13:30.279 --> 00:13:30.600 Is that. 261 00:13:32.080 --> 00:13:34.360 As you use warp to do this stuff, that teaches you. 262 00:13:34.440 --> 00:13:37.960 So it doesn't just like off the skate, like at 263 00:13:38.039 --> 00:13:40.519 least for now. The way it does it is like 264 00:13:40.919 --> 00:13:42.799 you type in like, hey, I want to create this project, 265 00:13:42.799 --> 00:13:45.000 and it says something back to you like, Okay, here 266 00:13:45.000 --> 00:13:47.120 are the commands that need to be run in order 267 00:13:47.120 --> 00:13:48.919 to create this project. Are you cool if I run 268 00:13:48.960 --> 00:13:52.360 these commands? And so to warn to your earlier points 269 00:13:52.360 --> 00:13:54.399 like is this just making this all like kind of 270 00:13:54.480 --> 00:13:56.919 dumber and not knowing how to do anything? It's possible, 271 00:13:57.240 --> 00:14:00.360 But there is also an aspect of like it's kind 272 00:14:00.360 --> 00:14:02.480 of like working with like the smart person on your 273 00:14:02.480 --> 00:14:04.440 team who can show you how to do things, and like, 274 00:14:05.080 --> 00:14:07.159 you know, hopefully you pick it up because it is 275 00:14:07.559 --> 00:14:10.240 it is in some ways faster if you know what 276 00:14:10.279 --> 00:14:13.879 you're doing, just type the commands. And I think in general, 277 00:14:13.960 --> 00:14:18.159 like I don't think it's a great outcome if everyone 278 00:14:18.159 --> 00:14:20.159 who's doing development or working in the terminal doesn't know 279 00:14:20.159 --> 00:14:22.799 what the hell is going on, because inevitably you're going 280 00:14:22.879 --> 00:14:25.159 to get to some point where you kind of need 281 00:14:25.200 --> 00:14:28.919 to know in order to fix something. And so you 282 00:14:28.960 --> 00:14:30.960 know that the hope is that this doesn't make people 283 00:14:31.000 --> 00:14:33.519 like dumb, or this makes people more proficient, but there is, 284 00:14:33.559 --> 00:14:35.200 like I think there's a risk for sure. 285 00:14:35.240 --> 00:14:37.559 There's there's actually two things that this reminds me of 286 00:14:37.600 --> 00:14:39.919 a lot. And the first one is a long time ago, 287 00:14:39.960 --> 00:14:42.600 and I don't know how well it's maintained, but there 288 00:14:42.679 --> 00:14:45.200 was a program that you could install into your terminal 289 00:14:45.279 --> 00:14:46.200 called fuck. 290 00:14:46.840 --> 00:14:50.039 Yeah no, No, we've partnered with that exactly. 291 00:14:50.600 --> 00:14:53.200 You've never you've never seen this before. Something that actually 292 00:14:53.279 --> 00:14:56.600 happens sort of often is that a command line program 293 00:14:56.600 --> 00:14:59.360 you run will tell you sort of what you did 294 00:14:59.399 --> 00:15:02.279 wrong in a way like did you mean this, And 295 00:15:02.360 --> 00:15:04.720 instead of having to like retype the command and fix 296 00:15:04.759 --> 00:15:07.120 the problem, you could just type fuck and it would 297 00:15:07.159 --> 00:15:10.960 read the output and then do that thing. And that's 298 00:15:11.000 --> 00:15:12.759 the first one. So you haven't seen that, Like I 299 00:15:12.840 --> 00:15:14.840 highly recommend at least, you know, checking that out. And 300 00:15:14.879 --> 00:15:17.480 the other one is this thing that totally changed how 301 00:15:17.519 --> 00:15:22.360 I use the terminal for doing software development, for interacting 302 00:15:22.360 --> 00:15:24.840 with GIT repositories. Is there's actually a get configuration that 303 00:15:24.879 --> 00:15:29.360 you can set up to automatically fix typos. So if 304 00:15:29.360 --> 00:15:31.879 you type something wrong, it will swap the letters around 305 00:15:31.919 --> 00:15:35.000 and be like, oh, okay, you probably meant this with 306 00:15:35.039 --> 00:15:37.639 a ninety nine percent accuracy, and then just do that 307 00:15:37.679 --> 00:15:40.120 command anyway. And you can also set a time out, 308 00:15:40.159 --> 00:15:42.440 like you know, if you accidentally type something and it's 309 00:15:42.480 --> 00:15:45.159 gonna start deleting all of your code base, you can 310 00:15:45.279 --> 00:15:47.840 be like, oh, wait, no, I don't want you to 311 00:15:47.840 --> 00:15:50.080 do that. But that actually brings me to a question 312 00:15:50.120 --> 00:15:52.840 I want to ask, which is I see more and 313 00:15:52.919 --> 00:15:55.759 more of these pieces of software I'll call them agents 314 00:15:55.840 --> 00:15:58.960 that are interacting with your operating system directly, and for me, 315 00:15:59.080 --> 00:16:01.720 like I'm super risk goverse, like I don't. I want 316 00:16:01.720 --> 00:16:04.960 to keep every LM or non thinking creature in its 317 00:16:05.000 --> 00:16:08.279 own private box where it can't accidentally delete like my 318 00:16:08.559 --> 00:16:13.000 entire operating system, because that's what I thought I wanted 319 00:16:13.000 --> 00:16:13.240 to know. 320 00:16:14.720 --> 00:16:20.759 It's just like, might trust the agent with myself? Yeah, 321 00:16:20.799 --> 00:16:25.879 go ahead, point I think, yeah. 322 00:16:24.840 --> 00:16:26.639 Like, so how do you how to manage this is 323 00:16:26.679 --> 00:16:27.080 the question? 324 00:16:27.240 --> 00:16:30.039 Or yeah, I mean, it's just it's almost like I 325 00:16:30.080 --> 00:16:32.720 would want to run like two computers side by side 326 00:16:32.919 --> 00:16:35.799 one of them. I mean, I already am really concerned 327 00:16:35.799 --> 00:16:39.240 about running external software on my machine from Ali like 328 00:16:39.240 --> 00:16:43.240 a malicious standpoint. Very rarely is it will break my 329 00:16:43.279 --> 00:16:45.639 operating system. I don't remember the last time it happened. 330 00:16:45.639 --> 00:16:47.399 It was probably when I was using Windows, like over 331 00:16:47.440 --> 00:16:48.200 a decade ago. 332 00:16:48.840 --> 00:16:48.960 Uh. 333 00:16:49.360 --> 00:16:52.279 But when it comes to LMS and things that, like 334 00:16:52.440 --> 00:16:55.679 I know from firsthand experience, sometimes it's like there's a 335 00:16:55.759 --> 00:16:58.200 non zero chance that it just figures out the wrong 336 00:16:58.240 --> 00:17:01.519 thing to do. And and like that's the sort of 337 00:17:01.559 --> 00:17:03.799 thing that I almost want a sandbox as much as possible, 338 00:17:03.840 --> 00:17:05.720 and I feel like we're not getting closer to that 339 00:17:05.759 --> 00:17:08.519 because our operating systems aren't don't allow it as much. 340 00:17:09.599 --> 00:17:12.359 So it's a great point. I mean, you have a 341 00:17:12.400 --> 00:17:14.960 couple of choices. If let's say you're using warps, so 342 00:17:15.079 --> 00:17:16.880 one you can just turn this stuff off, like if 343 00:17:16.880 --> 00:17:19.880 you're just like I don't trust that, I don't want it. 344 00:17:19.119 --> 00:17:19.960 So that's fair. 345 00:17:20.039 --> 00:17:22.880 There's one there's like a toggle that just says AI 346 00:17:23.079 --> 00:17:27.000 off and like that's it. You're back to, like you know, 347 00:17:27.039 --> 00:17:31.160 you're in control. There's also like a sort of like 348 00:17:31.480 --> 00:17:34.480 you can control the level of autonomy it has. So 349 00:17:34.559 --> 00:17:37.160 the the one of the levels that you could have 350 00:17:37.319 --> 00:17:40.319 is just like it can't do anything on its own, 351 00:17:40.400 --> 00:17:46.079 so it can suggest commands, so you can then manually 352 00:17:46.079 --> 00:17:49.839 approve anything it suggests. There's a level up from that, 353 00:17:49.880 --> 00:17:51.480 which is like you can kind of provide like an 354 00:17:51.519 --> 00:17:53.720 allow list and denial list. It could be like, oh, 355 00:17:53.799 --> 00:17:55.680 it's fine, it can run CAT, it can run less, 356 00:17:56.640 --> 00:17:59.799 can't run r M. You can go a level up 357 00:17:59.799 --> 00:18:01.880 from I feel like I wanted to be able to 358 00:18:01.920 --> 00:18:05.920 run read only commands and let let an LLM determine 359 00:18:05.920 --> 00:18:07.920 what it thinks as a read only command, which it's 360 00:18:07.920 --> 00:18:10.440 pretty damn good at but not perfect. Like if you 361 00:18:10.480 --> 00:18:12.880 had some crazy like piped thing or like hero doc 362 00:18:13.000 --> 00:18:15.519 or something like that, it might it might get confused, 363 00:18:15.599 --> 00:18:17.000 but it's pretty good. 364 00:18:17.400 --> 00:18:21.119 Or you could be like you know, like yellow, like. 365 00:18:20.480 --> 00:18:23.400 Like I just wanna it's not that big of a 366 00:18:23.400 --> 00:18:25.920 deal if that messes up my like get ripo or whatever, 367 00:18:25.960 --> 00:18:28.839 and I'm gonna let it run. And then the other 368 00:18:28.839 --> 00:18:30.839 thing that we're working on that we don't have yet 369 00:18:30.880 --> 00:18:32.720 but I think is really important in this world of 370 00:18:32.720 --> 00:18:35.839 like more autonomy is is what's the fastest way to 371 00:18:35.880 --> 00:18:36.400 like spin up. 372 00:18:36.319 --> 00:18:37.839 A sandbox where. 373 00:18:39.400 --> 00:18:42.559 You know your whatever state you want it working on 374 00:18:42.680 --> 00:18:44.720 is replicated and it can just go to work there 375 00:18:44.880 --> 00:18:49.039 without without you losing any sleep. That's gonna do something irreparable. 376 00:18:50.279 --> 00:18:53.000 I think like an undue functionality is super interesting too. 377 00:18:53.079 --> 00:18:56.960 It's not like trivial to do that in the terminal. 378 00:18:57.000 --> 00:19:01.279 Like the terminal is a stateful place where you know, 379 00:19:01.920 --> 00:19:02.480 kid deal. 380 00:19:02.480 --> 00:19:04.480 Files and there's no like undo. 381 00:19:05.079 --> 00:19:07.400 Uh so you kind of got to figure out, like 382 00:19:07.400 --> 00:19:09.440 like sandbox is try of the safest. But we're we're 383 00:19:09.799 --> 00:19:14.359 we're aware of this issue and it makes it makes sense. 384 00:19:14.680 --> 00:19:16.839 A surprising number of people don't give a ship. I 385 00:19:16.880 --> 00:19:22.000 will say, like they're just like this thing is just magic, 386 00:19:22.079 --> 00:19:24.400 and like I just it makes me so much faster 387 00:19:24.519 --> 00:19:27.000 and makes makes my life so much more fun that 388 00:19:27.119 --> 00:19:27.920 I don't really care. 389 00:19:28.640 --> 00:19:30.759 But it's a totally fair point. I wouldn't. Like they're 390 00:19:30.759 --> 00:19:32.160 not using this in NASA. 391 00:19:31.920 --> 00:19:34.480 And I'm like, you know, well, I think I think 392 00:19:34.519 --> 00:19:40.240 you you really yeah, not yet right, but probably Honestly, 393 00:19:41.279 --> 00:19:43.160 I have some theories there, but I think if I 394 00:19:43.200 --> 00:19:49.519 say them will definitely get canceled. So Uh, yeah, I 395 00:19:49.559 --> 00:19:51.519 think that's sort of the problem. And I think this 396 00:19:51.599 --> 00:19:53.759 is again I don't want to spoil my pick, but 397 00:19:54.640 --> 00:19:58.000 realistically it's that a large majority of the population falls 398 00:19:58.039 --> 00:20:02.559 into this area of maybe they have concerned, but they're uh, 399 00:20:02.599 --> 00:20:07.680 they're apathetic to actually turning off whatever. The source of 400 00:20:07.680 --> 00:20:10.119 the potential problem is there's not a good way to 401 00:20:10.240 --> 00:20:13.839 moderate AI from outside or l MS from outside the 402 00:20:14.359 --> 00:20:17.359 black box. You It's really like all or nothing in 403 00:20:17.400 --> 00:20:19.680 a lot of ways, and most people are not going 404 00:20:19.720 --> 00:20:22.640 to turn it off because they still perceive some huge 405 00:20:22.680 --> 00:20:26.720 amount of value from from utilizing them. And so you know, 406 00:20:27.039 --> 00:20:28.799 I'm not going to turn off the future. I'm just 407 00:20:28.799 --> 00:20:31.079 going to be really scared now what it's going to 408 00:20:31.119 --> 00:20:32.599 do when I'm not okay. 409 00:20:33.400 --> 00:20:37.839 Yeah, yeah, I think that that's right. 410 00:20:37.920 --> 00:20:40.599 And people obviously have a strong predisposition to do whatever 411 00:20:40.599 --> 00:20:41.640 you said the default too. 412 00:20:43.119 --> 00:20:44.880 It might not even like know what the heck is 413 00:20:44.920 --> 00:20:49.680 going on, but I don't know. 414 00:20:49.759 --> 00:20:52.640 Developers are maybe a little different, Like I feel like 415 00:20:53.240 --> 00:20:55.640 if anyone's gonna go tweak the knobs, it's gonna be 416 00:20:55.759 --> 00:20:58.440 like you know, except I don't. 417 00:20:58.519 --> 00:21:01.559 I don't think so. I think everyone has their their 418 00:21:01.599 --> 00:21:05.680 depth where there feel comfortable controlling and when if there's 419 00:21:05.720 --> 00:21:08.680 if they're comfortable pulling an LLLM to solving part of 420 00:21:08.680 --> 00:21:10.359 their job or part of what they're doing, it's probably 421 00:21:10.400 --> 00:21:12.759 in an area they don't care about, and so they're 422 00:21:12.759 --> 00:21:15.480 probably not going to. I think another aspect here is 423 00:21:15.720 --> 00:21:18.200 I have a very close friend that went away on 424 00:21:18.279 --> 00:21:21.839 vacation and they're the person who was cat sitting for 425 00:21:21.880 --> 00:21:26.440 them left some plastic on the stove which was induction 426 00:21:26.960 --> 00:21:29.160 but and it was totally fine, it was off, but 427 00:21:29.200 --> 00:21:31.599 one of the cats managed to turn the stove on 428 00:21:32.400 --> 00:21:37.359 and actually melted the plastic. Yeah, And so this is 429 00:21:37.400 --> 00:21:40.200 really funny though, because there there was no LM in 430 00:21:40.519 --> 00:21:46.680 there right the cat, the cat was fine, the cat, 431 00:21:46.720 --> 00:21:50.279 the cats were fine. The thing is like, I really 432 00:21:50.279 --> 00:21:51.880 do fear at some point like there is gonna be 433 00:21:51.880 --> 00:21:54.480 in someone's gonna put an LM in my in my stove. 434 00:21:54.519 --> 00:21:57.440 It's going to happen at some point, and I don't 435 00:21:57.440 --> 00:21:59.559 think we can avoid that future. And I do fear 436 00:21:59.640 --> 00:22:01.680 that it will just turn on one day when I'm 437 00:22:01.680 --> 00:22:04.119 not here and start doing things where like I have 438 00:22:04.160 --> 00:22:07.480 no I have no need for that, and I don't 439 00:22:08.039 --> 00:22:10.160 I'm not not thrilled about this future, but it's coming. 440 00:22:10.960 --> 00:22:14.640 Kelsey I Tewer had this good tweet which was he 441 00:22:15.039 --> 00:22:17.680 was like, I'm actively at the point where I will 442 00:22:17.720 --> 00:22:20.720 pay more to not have a smart appliance. So I 443 00:22:20.920 --> 00:22:22.599 was pretty much like, I get it, Like I don't 444 00:22:22.599 --> 00:22:24.559 need like my refrigerator having Wi. 445 00:22:24.359 --> 00:22:30.599 Fi or whatever. That makes sense on the on the 446 00:22:30.720 --> 00:22:33.359 MLM side, for if you're a developer. 447 00:22:33.599 --> 00:22:35.799 This might not be a popular opinion, but but I 448 00:22:36.160 --> 00:22:39.880 think you're not really going to have a choice as 449 00:22:39.920 --> 00:22:42.680 a developer if you want to continue being a productive 450 00:22:42.680 --> 00:22:44.000 developer on whether or not you. 451 00:22:44.000 --> 00:22:45.200 Adopt this technology. 452 00:22:45.640 --> 00:22:48.000 It's kind of like being like, oh, I only want 453 00:22:48.000 --> 00:22:49.920 to work in assembler. I'm not going to use like 454 00:22:49.960 --> 00:22:53.920 a high level language. Like that's not a viable choice 455 00:22:54.119 --> 00:22:57.480 going forward. The I think what you're gonna have to 456 00:22:57.559 --> 00:23:00.160 do is developer if you want to be like product 457 00:23:00.920 --> 00:23:02.640 is like, learn how to use all this stuff and 458 00:23:02.799 --> 00:23:04.799 learn how to use it in a safe and productive way. 459 00:23:05.559 --> 00:23:06.400 Is that unpopular? 460 00:23:08.000 --> 00:23:10.359 Let's have a fight. No, let's let's let's go around. 461 00:23:10.480 --> 00:23:13.119 You know, Jillian, what do you think greed disagree? 462 00:23:13.480 --> 00:23:17.079 I think so, Like I'm pretty judgmental over development over 463 00:23:17.279 --> 00:23:19.680 developers that don't use a debugger, so like I can 464 00:23:19.720 --> 00:23:21.480 see this kind of being just the next, the next 465 00:23:21.480 --> 00:23:26.319 sort of iteration and that process. Yeah, because I don't 466 00:23:26.319 --> 00:23:31.480 know developers are I think at some point, like everybody's 467 00:23:31.519 --> 00:23:33.960 kind of drawn to development because everybody has I like 468 00:23:34.000 --> 00:23:37.160 to learn new things, disease, and like writing code is 469 00:23:37.240 --> 00:23:38.839 really good for that, and then at some point you 470 00:23:38.839 --> 00:23:41.640 get really tired of it, and so then AI is 471 00:23:41.680 --> 00:23:43.799 really good for that like process when you're like, all right, 472 00:23:43.799 --> 00:23:45.720 I'm sick of having to learn the new things. Just 473 00:23:45.920 --> 00:23:47.440 I just want for the AI to tell me what 474 00:23:47.440 --> 00:23:51.839 to do and then there we are. So I'm gonna 475 00:23:51.839 --> 00:23:55.400 go with mostly yes, except that I feel like I 476 00:23:55.480 --> 00:23:57.799 might get some angry responses on the Internet for that, 477 00:23:57.880 --> 00:23:59.160 so I'll give like a little bit. 478 00:24:01.559 --> 00:24:04.680 Like there is a fear and understandable fear that developers 479 00:24:04.680 --> 00:24:06.000 have this is going to replace them. 480 00:24:06.039 --> 00:24:08.119 I don't think that's even remotely true. 481 00:24:08.880 --> 00:24:12.759 There's also like a thing that I've noticed, which is 482 00:24:12.799 --> 00:24:16.359 that a lot of like the more experienced, really strong 483 00:24:16.519 --> 00:24:19.839 developers on our team and who I've worked with, like 484 00:24:19.920 --> 00:24:21.599 they kind of get the least value out of it 485 00:24:21.640 --> 00:24:24.119 initially and are most likely to be like, oh, this 486 00:24:24.200 --> 00:24:26.759 is a stupid suggestion from this thing like or it's 487 00:24:26.799 --> 00:24:28.119 like creating bad code. 488 00:24:28.160 --> 00:24:31.160 And so they have like a kind of anti take 489 00:24:31.240 --> 00:24:31.759 on it, but. 490 00:24:33.799 --> 00:24:36.000 Eventually people get to a sort of moment with it 491 00:24:36.039 --> 00:24:38.599 where they're like, oh shit, this actually makes my life 492 00:24:38.599 --> 00:24:41.359 a lot easier and does some of the stuff that 493 00:24:41.400 --> 00:24:45.079 I find super annoying. And they, I think the proper 494 00:24:45.119 --> 00:24:48.279 outlook to have towards it is like, this is like 495 00:24:48.319 --> 00:24:52.559 another tool that I can use, just like if I 496 00:24:52.680 --> 00:24:55.839 like master like said and grap like, I'm like awesome 497 00:24:55.839 --> 00:24:56.440 as a developer. 498 00:24:56.480 --> 00:24:59.119 I think if you could figure out how to effectively 499 00:24:59.480 --> 00:25:02.240 use the l I think it just makes you better. 500 00:25:02.599 --> 00:25:05.079 I think that's like the right for now, the right 501 00:25:05.119 --> 00:25:07.480 way to look at war. What do you think? 502 00:25:08.920 --> 00:25:12.000 Well, I have the opposite controversial opinion, so you know, 503 00:25:12.079 --> 00:25:16.559 I was maybe thinking about keeping my mouth shut. So 504 00:25:16.680 --> 00:25:22.440 I have this perspective that it definitely replaces inexperienced engineers. 505 00:25:23.240 --> 00:25:25.680 And so the problem with that is, and I think 506 00:25:25.720 --> 00:25:28.000 this is where the fear comes from, is that lms 507 00:25:28.039 --> 00:25:31.400 do not replace inexperienced engineers. People think that elms will 508 00:25:31.440 --> 00:25:35.759 replace in experienced engineers and do that anyway, And I 509 00:25:35.759 --> 00:25:37.759 think we're already starting to see that happening. And the 510 00:25:37.759 --> 00:25:41.839 problem with that is you're paying money for these tools 511 00:25:42.119 --> 00:25:46.079 and you're not training your organization's people on leveling up 512 00:25:46.079 --> 00:25:48.839 their skills in these areas and will become more and 513 00:25:48.880 --> 00:25:52.119 more dependent on them and definitely move away from it. 514 00:25:52.200 --> 00:25:54.440 Now on the productivity side, I still think it's way 515 00:25:54.519 --> 00:25:56.119 it costs way too much. I think there has to 516 00:25:56.160 --> 00:26:01.880 be magnitudes cost reduction in general eating answers before this 517 00:26:02.000 --> 00:26:04.920 becomes of high value. 518 00:26:05.799 --> 00:26:07.640 Mean like monetary costs. 519 00:26:07.279 --> 00:26:11.519 Like the monetary environmental et cetera. It's still like, uh, 520 00:26:12.119 --> 00:26:14.920 none of the AI companies are making money like the 521 00:26:14.960 --> 00:26:17.359 ones that are pumping out AI. You know, Open AI. 522 00:26:18.359 --> 00:26:19.519 I'm sure whatever. 523 00:26:21.599 --> 00:26:21.799 We know. 524 00:26:21.839 --> 00:26:25.599 Anthropics not making money. We know whatever they are, they're zero, 525 00:26:25.759 --> 00:26:29.720 Like it's negative negative billions of dollars per year on this. 526 00:26:29.839 --> 00:26:33.680 So you know, that's not sustainable model from a society standpoint. 527 00:26:34.559 --> 00:26:36.240 There's gonna have to be something to change. Either these 528 00:26:36.279 --> 00:26:39.559 tools will completely go away or the costs will have 529 00:26:39.599 --> 00:26:42.519 to come down. I think the last thing is that 530 00:26:42.759 --> 00:26:45.759 we find from a productivity standpoint, at least for me 531 00:26:45.880 --> 00:26:48.079 and the myself and the companies that I work with, 532 00:26:48.440 --> 00:26:52.880 is that the bottleneck isn't doing more work or specifically 533 00:26:52.920 --> 00:26:55.480 writing out code or pushing that out, so the tools 534 00:26:55.519 --> 00:26:58.200 don't solve the needs that we have. It's okay for 535 00:26:58.279 --> 00:26:59.799 us to still be slow in this way or not 536 00:26:59.839 --> 00:27:03.000 be productive in this way, because that's not where our 537 00:27:03.000 --> 00:27:03.720 bottle that gets. 538 00:27:08.319 --> 00:27:15.079 I disagree with almost everything you just said, but I'm gonna. 539 00:27:14.880 --> 00:27:16.799 Like it's interesting. 540 00:27:16.920 --> 00:27:21.000 It's it's interesting to have this, uh, this discussion because 541 00:27:21.000 --> 00:27:25.920 I'm so in the like AI bubble of like like 542 00:27:26.160 --> 00:27:30.920 Silicon Valley people and like AI tech companies and like, 543 00:27:30.920 --> 00:27:34.519 like the main contention that I hear amongst these, like 544 00:27:34.559 --> 00:27:36.319 the people I talked about on the investing said on 545 00:27:36.319 --> 00:27:38.960 the other A company side is like how quickly are 546 00:27:38.960 --> 00:27:41.400 we're getting to a g I? And Warren is coming 547 00:27:41.400 --> 00:27:43.480 in hot with being like these things are not even. 548 00:27:43.359 --> 00:27:46.519 Valuable, They're not it's not even AI. Like I hate 549 00:27:46.519 --> 00:27:49.119 this term that like we we there's these companies are 550 00:27:50.119 --> 00:27:52.480 lying to the masses of people saying we have AI. 551 00:27:52.599 --> 00:27:55.000 All we have is transformer architecture which is able to 552 00:27:55.079 --> 00:27:57.640 utilize you know, create l MS, and they will always 553 00:27:57.680 --> 00:28:00.720 hallucinate And that's the ridiculous thing. Like I'm waiting for 554 00:28:00.759 --> 00:28:03.759 someone to say, how is open AI going to recoup 555 00:28:03.799 --> 00:28:05.880 the billions of dollars they are losing every single year? 556 00:28:06.160 --> 00:28:08.839 Like where does that? Where does that change? Because money 557 00:28:08.839 --> 00:28:12.680 will run out at some point? 558 00:28:13.799 --> 00:28:15.200 Oh well, well you want to go or do you 559 00:28:15.200 --> 00:28:16.200 want that? 560 00:28:17.960 --> 00:28:19.839 I'm going to jump in real quick. Then we can 561 00:28:19.880 --> 00:28:23.200 come back to that. I this is good. I think 562 00:28:23.240 --> 00:28:26.000 I tend to agree with you, Zach, that there's going 563 00:28:26.079 --> 00:28:28.960 to be people who are resistant to AI. And I 564 00:28:28.960 --> 00:28:32.319 think the primary place I've seen this is people who 565 00:28:32.359 --> 00:28:40.200 really are They're really passionate and invested in their chosen language. 566 00:28:40.279 --> 00:28:40.480 You know. 567 00:28:40.519 --> 00:28:42.640 I think if we look at the category of people 568 00:28:42.720 --> 00:28:47.519 who will argue Go versus Rust, and they've pinned, they've 569 00:28:47.559 --> 00:28:50.799 pinned their career on I'm a Rust developer or I'm 570 00:28:50.799 --> 00:28:55.240 a Go developer, and and so they'll try something like 571 00:28:55.319 --> 00:29:00.400 AI or or any of those related tools and say, oh, 572 00:29:00.440 --> 00:29:04.119 well it got this wrong. That's clearly why I'm I'm 573 00:29:04.519 --> 00:29:06.319 not going to rely on this thing because it got 574 00:29:06.319 --> 00:29:10.759 this one thing wrong. And you'll get a lot of 575 00:29:10.799 --> 00:29:12.559 resistance from those people. 576 00:29:15.440 --> 00:29:15.920 I think the. 577 00:29:16.440 --> 00:29:19.200 AI is like another tool. I mean, I guess more 578 00:29:19.240 --> 00:29:20.920 than what you're saying with like all the money being 579 00:29:20.960 --> 00:29:23.559 spent in the environmental cost That is very valid. But 580 00:29:23.599 --> 00:29:26.599 from the tool perspective, it's like I'm already so dependent 581 00:29:26.680 --> 00:29:30.160 upon tools like without dictation software, pie Charm and VIM, 582 00:29:30.200 --> 00:29:33.839 I'm completely useless. I have like zero utility to anybody 583 00:29:33.880 --> 00:29:36.759 anywhere at any time, like in a professional context, anyways 584 00:29:39.359 --> 00:29:41.200 that I am, you know. I mean I do have 585 00:29:41.279 --> 00:29:44.319 kids occasionally, I'm useful in like a human context, but 586 00:29:44.480 --> 00:29:47.519 like from from a professional standpoint, if I don't have 587 00:29:47.640 --> 00:29:50.359 those things, I'm not going to get any work done. 588 00:29:50.400 --> 00:29:54.039 And so AI has just become like another tool for 589 00:29:54.119 --> 00:29:55.759 me to use. And so I just see it from 590 00:29:55.799 --> 00:29:59.240 that perspective. From the money perspective, like I don't know, 591 00:29:59.279 --> 00:30:02.200 but humanity is a bunch of money on a bunch 592 00:30:02.200 --> 00:30:04.480 of things that we don't recoup an investment from. Like 593 00:30:04.519 --> 00:30:07.079 it's just the money never actually runs out. We don't 594 00:30:07.079 --> 00:30:11.960 have a gold standard anymore, Like there's there's always there, 595 00:30:12.200 --> 00:30:15.000 Like it's an arbitrary concept. There's always money. 596 00:30:17.000 --> 00:30:19.400 As long as the printer companies keep making printers that 597 00:30:19.480 --> 00:30:20.160 print the money. 598 00:30:21.400 --> 00:30:22.920 I mean, isn't that kind of what we're doing at 599 00:30:22.920 --> 00:30:25.960 this point? Though? Like isn't that what the governments of 600 00:30:25.960 --> 00:30:27.880 the world have sort of decided or doing well. 601 00:30:27.880 --> 00:30:30.880 There's a secondary problem here, actually, which is that the 602 00:30:31.079 --> 00:30:33.839 energy consumption is too high. Like even shave off the 603 00:30:34.000 --> 00:30:37.160 environmental impacts, the energy cost is so high that people 604 00:30:37.200 --> 00:30:41.000 are now starting to have their lives affected by having 605 00:30:41.079 --> 00:30:44.480 spotty continuous energy flow into their own appliances in there 606 00:30:44.519 --> 00:30:48.559 and their house lights and stoves, ovens, whatever. And that's 607 00:30:48.559 --> 00:30:53.880 happening near data centers where increased energy usage is required 608 00:30:53.920 --> 00:30:56.799 to run LM. So I think that problem is likely 609 00:30:56.839 --> 00:30:58.640 to get worse even if the money doesn't run out. 610 00:30:59.000 --> 00:31:01.400 But if you had a smart refrigerator, it could address 611 00:31:01.440 --> 00:31:04.960 for that exactly. 612 00:31:05.000 --> 00:31:07.440 If the things are smart, you know, then then what 613 00:31:07.440 --> 00:31:09.759 do you even need the energy for? Now, We're fine. 614 00:31:10.160 --> 00:31:12.279 I like the perspective. I mean, it is a tool, 615 00:31:12.319 --> 00:31:14.000 for sure, And I think the thing that I see 616 00:31:14.160 --> 00:31:16.400 is that it used to be the fact you could 617 00:31:16.440 --> 00:31:19.720 type into Google and get a website that helped you 618 00:31:19.759 --> 00:31:22.160 answer the question you have. And you can't even do 619 00:31:22.160 --> 00:31:24.920 that anymore because at least that search engine has become 620 00:31:25.079 --> 00:31:28.440 utterly worthless, and so you need a replacement for that. 621 00:31:28.599 --> 00:31:33.799 And I think it's worse from a accuracy standpoint than 622 00:31:33.920 --> 00:31:36.079 Google at its best, but it's for sure better than 623 00:31:36.119 --> 00:31:39.359 Google now, and I think that's a worthwhile trade off 624 00:31:39.440 --> 00:31:41.680 that you have to change if you're still using Google, 625 00:31:41.759 --> 00:31:44.279 or you're still believe that your one true programming language 626 00:31:44.519 --> 00:31:46.920 is the only one for the future. I think that's 627 00:31:47.079 --> 00:31:48.799 just the mindset which doesn't make sense. 628 00:31:48.920 --> 00:31:52.279 So, Zach, you wanted to come back and answer or 629 00:31:52.319 --> 00:31:55.880 respond to the money issue. 630 00:31:56.519 --> 00:31:59.000 I can't speak to the energy stuff. I can't speak 631 00:31:59.039 --> 00:32:06.640 to just like it's valuable. So for for developers paying 632 00:32:06.920 --> 00:32:12.200 twenty to forty bucks a month for AI in their 633 00:32:12.319 --> 00:32:17.279 core tools, if you just think of how much development 634 00:32:17.319 --> 00:32:23.680 time costs you have to save I don't know, twenty 635 00:32:23.759 --> 00:32:26.880 minutes or something for that to be a worthwhile thing. 636 00:32:27.279 --> 00:32:30.759 And that threshold has. 637 00:32:30.680 --> 00:32:33.480 Been crossed a long time ago in my opinion, just 638 00:32:33.480 --> 00:32:38.119 from using these as a user of these tools, the 639 00:32:38.160 --> 00:32:43.200 amount of like time that they save me, it's like 640 00:32:43.279 --> 00:32:45.359 a no brainer trade off. I don't know if anyone 641 00:32:45.440 --> 00:32:48.720 on the back end of this is making money yet 642 00:32:48.799 --> 00:32:51.200 I do know WARP like we have a positive margin 643 00:32:51.240 --> 00:32:54.440 when people pay us for AI, and so it could 644 00:32:54.480 --> 00:32:57.559 be that the model companies or the hyperscalers are just 645 00:32:57.599 --> 00:33:02.000 taking a huge loss on warp's profit. But it you know, 646 00:33:02.079 --> 00:33:05.640 from like just pure economics, people find the value, they 647 00:33:05.640 --> 00:33:08.200 pay for it, they stick with it like a surprise 648 00:33:08.240 --> 00:33:10.160 and higher like we don't have very high churn on it. 649 00:33:10.640 --> 00:33:13.799 And so I have to believe that just from that 650 00:33:13.960 --> 00:33:15.960 and from like actually using it, that there's a ton 651 00:33:16.000 --> 00:33:19.240 of value. It's certainly true that these things are not infallible. 652 00:33:19.400 --> 00:33:22.319 And like, I guess you could debate from like a 653 00:33:22.359 --> 00:33:26.599 philosophical perspective whether or not they're intelligent. Actually think they 654 00:33:27.079 --> 00:33:30.960 they they have some level of like intelligence. Now it's 655 00:33:31.000 --> 00:33:33.720 not like it doesn't quite work the same way that 656 00:33:33.799 --> 00:33:38.480 human intelligence works, but they're able to, like I don't know, 657 00:33:38.480 --> 00:33:41.960 they're able to do things that up until a couple 658 00:33:42.000 --> 00:33:43.839 of years ago you would only say a human could do. 659 00:33:44.039 --> 00:33:48.640 So there's it's I personally am like super excited by 660 00:33:48.680 --> 00:33:51.319 the progress, Like I was a like I studied a 661 00:33:51.319 --> 00:33:53.440 bunch of philosophy. I have a philosophy degree in addition 662 00:33:53.480 --> 00:33:56.599 to a CS background. I think it's like absolutely fascinating 663 00:33:56.599 --> 00:34:01.480 what it says about what intelligence means. It's not, like 664 00:34:01.519 --> 00:34:03.720 you said, it's not perfect human intelligence, but it's something 665 00:34:03.759 --> 00:34:05.880 and it's like I think it's a it's a pretty 666 00:34:05.920 --> 00:34:08.239 awesome technological advance. 667 00:34:08.559 --> 00:34:11.360 So I'm more pro AI, more bullish. 668 00:34:11.400 --> 00:34:13.280 I think Warren's a little bit more on the skeptic side. 669 00:34:13.320 --> 00:34:14.119 That's all. 670 00:34:14.920 --> 00:34:15.280 I think. 671 00:34:15.400 --> 00:34:18.480 I can't assign the word intelligence to it yet, and 672 00:34:18.760 --> 00:34:21.840 because because of the architecture that it's utilizing, it's just 673 00:34:21.880 --> 00:34:25.760 a probabilistic word predictor. And I think we need a 674 00:34:25.760 --> 00:34:30.519 different architecture other than the Transform architecture to actually reach 675 00:34:30.559 --> 00:34:34.480 anything that would be fair to call AI in any capacity. 676 00:34:34.639 --> 00:34:37.519 I do want to jump into how you're utilizing it 677 00:34:37.519 --> 00:34:41.039 though at WARP sure are you are you running your 678 00:34:41.079 --> 00:34:44.760 own foundational models or are you passing queries to something 679 00:34:44.840 --> 00:34:48.679 configurable for like I can put in open AI apike 680 00:34:49.079 --> 00:34:51.360 or anthropic apike, what's going on there? 681 00:34:51.920 --> 00:34:52.880 You can pick your model. 682 00:34:53.000 --> 00:34:58.079 So we we support the anthropic models, the open A models, 683 00:34:58.119 --> 00:35:01.519 Google's models, We support you as hosted version of deep 684 00:35:01.559 --> 00:35:02.280 seek models. 685 00:35:02.280 --> 00:35:03.960 Even some of the open source models. 686 00:35:05.480 --> 00:35:09.880 You you can't go directly to them because our server 687 00:35:10.039 --> 00:35:12.960 has like a whole bunch of logic on, like the 688 00:35:12.960 --> 00:35:15.639 prompt engineering and sort of different agents for different types 689 00:35:15.639 --> 00:35:18.960 of tasks, so there's like a logic layer between them. 690 00:35:19.000 --> 00:35:23.400 But the basic the basic intelligence underlying the AI and 691 00:35:23.440 --> 00:35:25.320 war currently is. 692 00:35:25.280 --> 00:35:26.400 The foundation models. 693 00:35:26.719 --> 00:35:28.639 There's a chance at some point that we'll get a 694 00:35:28.639 --> 00:35:32.840 little bit more into the like make a model to 695 00:35:32.880 --> 00:35:37.159 protict your command type business, but currently we're we find 696 00:35:37.199 --> 00:35:40.199 that the best thing for our users is to sort 697 00:35:40.239 --> 00:35:44.280 of use the like we're not going to spend billion 698 00:35:44.320 --> 00:35:48.079 dollars on you know, GPUs or whatever and trade models 699 00:35:48.119 --> 00:35:49.719 right now. 700 00:35:49.559 --> 00:35:53.880 That would probably change profitability statement you just made earlier. 701 00:35:54.800 --> 00:35:58.320 Yeah, well, so I would say, like we are at 702 00:35:58.320 --> 00:35:59.760 the application layer. 703 00:36:00.360 --> 00:36:02.639 If you look at this as like application layer, model layer, 704 00:36:02.719 --> 00:36:04.880 hyperscalar worth the application. 705 00:36:04.480 --> 00:36:07.079 There, No, it makes makes sense. I mean, but in 706 00:36:07.280 --> 00:36:11.719 in that way, the model providers are definitely subsidizing the 707 00:36:11.800 --> 00:36:15.039 profitability because they're taking huge losses. I mean, I don't 708 00:36:15.039 --> 00:36:16.559 know who's making money from there. 709 00:36:17.320 --> 00:36:20.199 It's just a question of like where's the value going 710 00:36:20.239 --> 00:36:23.679 this whole thing, like the you know, the other thing. 711 00:36:23.760 --> 00:36:30.280 Like, so the model providers, I think, like the big 712 00:36:30.400 --> 00:36:31.480 question mark to me. 713 00:36:31.480 --> 00:36:34.760 Is like open source models and like if you have open. 714 00:36:34.519 --> 00:36:39.039 Source models, especially ones that are like comparable quality, if 715 00:36:39.079 --> 00:36:41.199 like like open AI and anthropies of the world can't 716 00:36:41.239 --> 00:36:44.800 maintain like a like a real lead in quality or 717 00:36:44.880 --> 00:36:48.159 latency or something like that. How does how does the 718 00:36:48.199 --> 00:36:50.760 world work in that? And so the open source alternative 719 00:36:50.760 --> 00:36:53.920 where you run it yourself, uh and you don't have 720 00:36:54.000 --> 00:36:58.119 to pay the sort of margin to open AI is. 721 00:36:58.039 --> 00:36:59.000 Super interesting to me. 722 00:37:00.639 --> 00:37:02.800 I think that the one place that there's definitely going 723 00:37:02.880 --> 00:37:04.280 to be someone's gonna make money. 724 00:37:04.320 --> 00:37:06.039 It's just on like serving these models. 725 00:37:06.199 --> 00:37:08.639 So I feel like, for better or worse, if you're 726 00:37:08.920 --> 00:37:12.239 Amazon and ANWS you know, g Cloud, Azure or whatever, 727 00:37:12.920 --> 00:37:15.960 they're gonna make money because someone needs to serve these models. 728 00:37:15.960 --> 00:37:19.239 And the local versions, which is I think another interesting 729 00:37:19.280 --> 00:37:22.440 thing to consider are at least currently they're not at 730 00:37:22.440 --> 00:37:25.480 the they're not at it's not really practical to like 731 00:37:26.280 --> 00:37:31.360 get the same level of power from like downloading you know, Lama. 732 00:37:31.599 --> 00:37:34.239 But that's another thing I'm looking at is like maybe 733 00:37:34.239 --> 00:37:39.360 it's just local models that totally disintermediate the need for these. 734 00:37:39.199 --> 00:37:43.559 Like huge API based cloud models. 735 00:37:43.679 --> 00:37:46.320 Who know, no, I mean, you're you're onto something really 736 00:37:46.320 --> 00:37:49.840 there because the like you, it would cost you way 737 00:37:49.880 --> 00:37:52.519 more than the price that you would pay to the 738 00:37:52.559 --> 00:37:55.280 model providers to utilize their llms if you tried to 739 00:37:55.360 --> 00:37:59.159 run the open source models locally on hardware that you 740 00:37:59.159 --> 00:38:02.639 know is comparable and gets you speed and accuracy precision 741 00:38:02.719 --> 00:38:04.000 in order to utilize that. 742 00:38:04.159 --> 00:38:04.360 Yeah. 743 00:38:05.800 --> 00:38:10.960 Yeah, we should talk about WARP some more and like 744 00:38:11.000 --> 00:38:17.920 its features about whatever. I like, speak into the terminal 745 00:38:18.000 --> 00:38:19.280 my commands so that I don't have. 746 00:38:19.320 --> 00:38:23.760 To do it. So we added this feature. It's super cool. 747 00:38:23.840 --> 00:38:24.840 If you're using WARP. 748 00:38:24.960 --> 00:38:28.920 You can hold the function key or you can configure it, uh, 749 00:38:28.960 --> 00:38:30.239 and you can. 750 00:38:30.159 --> 00:38:31.960 Talk to your terminal. It's magic. 751 00:38:32.280 --> 00:38:34.360 You can you can just tell it what you want 752 00:38:34.400 --> 00:38:38.599 to do. We uh, it translates it into English and 753 00:38:38.599 --> 00:38:41.719 then it runs it and so it's it's pretty star 754 00:38:41.760 --> 00:38:45.480 trek y from like a user experience standpoint. 755 00:38:46.199 --> 00:38:47.719 So yeah, that's that is something that we wanted. 756 00:38:49.119 --> 00:38:51.840 Saving the people from the repetitive stress injuries like this 757 00:38:51.880 --> 00:38:52.280 is what I. 758 00:38:52.480 --> 00:38:54.199 Why should people have to do anything? 759 00:38:54.559 --> 00:38:59.280 Like I know what Gillian's waiting for that she wants 760 00:38:59.320 --> 00:39:00.840 the brain interface device. 761 00:39:00.719 --> 00:39:02.679 Exactly what I want. 762 00:39:04.760 --> 00:39:05.039 I think. 763 00:39:05.199 --> 00:39:07.000 I think it would be a really good WARP. 764 00:39:07.639 --> 00:39:10.039 I'm getting the sense that that WARF is actually very 765 00:39:10.079 --> 00:39:11.920 well suited to Jillian's work force. 766 00:39:12.239 --> 00:39:14.559 It really is, Like, especially since you just said the 767 00:39:14.639 --> 00:39:17.519 speech thing, because I'm getting older and I can't type 768 00:39:17.559 --> 00:39:20.559 so much so like I very specifically need the speech. 769 00:39:20.320 --> 00:39:22.239 Thing, and why should you have to say it? 770 00:39:22.719 --> 00:39:26.519 I know I shouldn't. That reminds me of like an 771 00:39:26.559 --> 00:39:28.199 episode kind of person here. 772 00:39:29.400 --> 00:39:31.679 It reminds me of an episode of The Simpsons where 773 00:39:31.679 --> 00:39:34.280 Homer's in the hospital and the guy in the bed 774 00:39:34.320 --> 00:39:39.199 next to him is on a breathing machine and He's like, hey, 775 00:39:39.440 --> 00:39:41.400 how come that guy gets someone to breathe for him 776 00:39:41.440 --> 00:39:43.079 and I'm over here doing it by myself. 777 00:39:44.360 --> 00:39:45.880 See, I thought you were going to bring up the 778 00:39:45.920 --> 00:39:48.599 episode where he tried to get to three hundred pounds 779 00:39:48.639 --> 00:39:53.400 so he could be classified with a disability use a 780 00:39:53.440 --> 00:39:54.760 wand to dial. 781 00:39:54.920 --> 00:39:57.320 That must be an old episode, like that must that 782 00:39:57.400 --> 00:39:58.639 must be a real old episode. 783 00:39:58.679 --> 00:39:59.920 Yeah, that was when it was still good. 784 00:40:00.559 --> 00:40:01.960 Yeah. 785 00:40:02.599 --> 00:40:06.599 Doctor Nick's food philosophy was if you rub a newspaper 786 00:40:06.639 --> 00:40:09.199 on the food and the newspaper turns clear, it's good 787 00:40:09.239 --> 00:40:09.599 to eat. 788 00:40:11.880 --> 00:40:15.599 I mean, one of my I'm pretty lazy, and like 789 00:40:15.679 --> 00:40:17.800 I'm not like ashamed to be lazy when especially when 790 00:40:17.840 --> 00:40:20.079 it comes to when it comes to development. 791 00:40:21.440 --> 00:40:22.639 I don't want to have to. 792 00:40:22.519 --> 00:40:25.880 Do more work than I have to do to ship 793 00:40:26.000 --> 00:40:29.119 something that's useful. So like my like what I care 794 00:40:29.159 --> 00:40:34.199 about as a developer. Like again, there's different kinds of developers, 795 00:40:34.199 --> 00:40:35.719 but to me, I'm like all in it for the 796 00:40:36.239 --> 00:40:37.400 I want to build something cool. 797 00:40:37.599 --> 00:40:39.000 I want to ship it out to people. 798 00:40:39.639 --> 00:40:41.199 I want to be proud that I built it that 799 00:40:41.360 --> 00:40:44.159 I want it to work really really well. And I 800 00:40:44.320 --> 00:40:47.519 want to do that with like the minimal possible effort 801 00:40:48.559 --> 00:40:50.800 and the extent that I have to put effort into it. 802 00:40:50.840 --> 00:40:53.800 I want it to be effort that goes towards thinking 803 00:40:53.840 --> 00:40:57.079 about how it ought to work. And I don't want 804 00:40:57.079 --> 00:40:59.679 to spend effort on like annoying shit in the terminal, 805 00:41:00.119 --> 00:41:02.760 Like that's like the last place that I want my 806 00:41:02.880 --> 00:41:05.480 limited brain cycles to go. I don't want to spend 807 00:41:05.480 --> 00:41:10.119 effort either on like changing function signatures in my files. 808 00:41:10.159 --> 00:41:11.719 I just I know what I want it to be, 809 00:41:11.800 --> 00:41:13.280 and I want like to get from A to B 810 00:41:13.400 --> 00:41:15.960 as quick as possible. And so yeah, it's the extent 811 00:41:16.039 --> 00:41:18.199 that something like AI and I think WARP for the 812 00:41:18.320 --> 00:41:20.440 terminal especially like makes it so I can be like 813 00:41:20.480 --> 00:41:21.480 a little bit lazier. 814 00:41:21.719 --> 00:41:23.760 Again, this isn't like the advertising I put on our 815 00:41:23.760 --> 00:41:27.480 home page or whatever, but I think it's like I 816 00:41:27.519 --> 00:41:28.039 should have a. 817 00:41:28.159 --> 00:41:30.840 Valuable things advertising it's great. 818 00:41:32.119 --> 00:41:35.760 And like, honestly, like a lot of the best developers 819 00:41:35.800 --> 00:41:38.840 I've worked with in my career just kind of all 820 00:41:38.880 --> 00:41:42.039 about that, like, don't make me spend my brain cycles 821 00:41:42.079 --> 00:41:46.519 on like tedious shit and toil. And so I feel 822 00:41:46.559 --> 00:41:50.199 pretty good about trying to eliminate that stuff for developers 823 00:41:50.239 --> 00:41:52.199 so that you can do the more fun stuff, because 824 00:41:52.199 --> 00:41:53.320 the really fun stuff. 825 00:41:53.119 --> 00:41:55.400 Is like it's like, to me, at least, it's like, 826 00:41:55.400 --> 00:41:56.480 how should the product work? 827 00:41:56.639 --> 00:41:59.679 And then it's like, how do I architect this thing 828 00:42:00.199 --> 00:42:02.079 so that I can make the product work the way 829 00:42:02.079 --> 00:42:02.440 that I want? 830 00:42:02.440 --> 00:42:03.719 And then the least fun thing is. 831 00:42:03.599 --> 00:42:07.719 Like the like typing in the like words in the 832 00:42:07.800 --> 00:42:09.880 text editor or the terminal to do that. 833 00:42:10.559 --> 00:42:12.199 I don't know if everyone's in the same way. 834 00:42:12.440 --> 00:42:14.719 No, I think I gore onto something. 835 00:42:14.880 --> 00:42:17.039 We was going to say it, yeah, No, I was 836 00:42:17.079 --> 00:42:21.159 going to say, it's much more exciting to work on 837 00:42:21.679 --> 00:42:25.280 how the application works than how to center this fucking div. 838 00:42:25.760 --> 00:42:31.480 Right that vertically. 839 00:42:32.800 --> 00:42:36.639 Under the vertically on the page. That's that, that's the key. Vertically, 840 00:42:36.840 --> 00:42:42.480 you know, horizontally you just use flexbox, no problem. I think, well, 841 00:42:42.920 --> 00:42:44.480 you know, there's an interesting thing here, because I feel 842 00:42:44.519 --> 00:42:46.239 like if if we take this to the natural conclusion, 843 00:42:46.280 --> 00:42:52.199 it's probably like the managing directors who will then be 844 00:42:52.320 --> 00:42:57.320 responsible for building the product by communicating with the AI 845 00:42:57.440 --> 00:43:00.119 that we technology that we have available and not needing 846 00:43:00.440 --> 00:43:04.000 so called technology department in any of our companies anymore. 847 00:43:05.440 --> 00:43:08.559 So that's like a horrible outcome to me. I think 848 00:43:08.599 --> 00:43:14.480 it's product managers making software. I mean, arguably that's what's happening. Yeah, 849 00:43:14.480 --> 00:43:16.960 I mean argue that's what's happening right now. There's just 850 00:43:17.000 --> 00:43:19.159 a couple of you know, people in their way that 851 00:43:19.239 --> 00:43:21.280 are telling them that they can't have it exactly what 852 00:43:21.320 --> 00:43:25.440 they want. That's interesting, That's well, I think that's that's 853 00:43:25.480 --> 00:43:28.960 not how it works at work, Like I could be 854 00:43:28.960 --> 00:43:31.639 at work to some places. But so at work, for instance, 855 00:43:31.800 --> 00:43:34.639 we build something and we may be again we may 856 00:43:34.679 --> 00:43:36.119 be different than other places. 857 00:43:36.320 --> 00:43:39.199 It's primarily engineers who are driving the product direction. Now 858 00:43:39.480 --> 00:43:42.679 we're working on a product that is used by we use. 859 00:43:43.320 --> 00:43:45.440 We're the customer, we're the audience, and so we have 860 00:43:45.519 --> 00:43:49.320 this awesome virtuous feedback loop of like we build it, 861 00:43:49.400 --> 00:43:51.800 we use it, we like something, we don't like something, 862 00:43:51.880 --> 00:43:53.800 and so we drive a lot of it. 863 00:43:55.639 --> 00:43:58.119 I don't want to change that at all, Like, actually, 864 00:43:58.199 --> 00:43:59.880 I think that's not a good thing to change. 865 00:44:00.079 --> 00:44:00.400 And so. 866 00:44:02.440 --> 00:44:05.039 I also just I don't think as bolish as I 867 00:44:05.079 --> 00:44:08.719 am on AI. I don't think that we are close 868 00:44:08.800 --> 00:44:11.559 to the point where you can build something meaningful without 869 00:44:11.599 --> 00:44:16.280 having some technical knowledge. And if anything like again this 870 00:44:16.360 --> 00:44:18.320 is probably is not the prevailing wisdom. But it's like 871 00:44:18.679 --> 00:44:22.079 I think you need to be more technical to be 872 00:44:22.159 --> 00:44:25.840 able to sort of guide and correct and be the 873 00:44:25.920 --> 00:44:29.679 like the tech lead for an AI. And it's if 874 00:44:29.719 --> 00:44:32.840 you are a aspiring developer these days, I would say, 875 00:44:32.840 --> 00:44:35.920 like learn the shit better, like learn the fundamentals to 876 00:44:35.960 --> 00:44:40.599 see us better, because if you want to effectively produce 877 00:44:40.639 --> 00:44:42.360 software in a world where you have someone who's like 878 00:44:42.440 --> 00:44:44.519 pretty smart but also kind of like a savant and 879 00:44:44.559 --> 00:44:46.840 like dominant a bunch of ways, you need to know what. 880 00:44:46.760 --> 00:44:48.599 The heck is going on for when you hit a wall. 881 00:44:49.119 --> 00:44:52.519 And so I think, you know, I don't think we're 882 00:44:52.559 --> 00:44:55.320 close to a world where it's like MBA is building 883 00:44:55.320 --> 00:44:56.840 all of our software no fins to nbas. 884 00:44:56.960 --> 00:44:59.719 Nbas are great, but like I feel like it's you're 885 00:44:59.719 --> 00:45:00.760 gonna need people. 886 00:45:00.519 --> 00:45:03.800 Who are experts in order to effectively use this tool to. 887 00:45:03.760 --> 00:45:04.920 Get its pact capacity. 888 00:45:05.280 --> 00:45:07.239 And I do think like Wren, I don't know your 889 00:45:07.280 --> 00:45:10.039 point out, Like if you're really junior and you don't learn, 890 00:45:10.599 --> 00:45:12.960 if all you do is say maybe like you've only 891 00:45:13.000 --> 00:45:14.559 learned how to build web apps, I do you feel 892 00:45:14.559 --> 00:45:16.079 like you're like a little bit at risk. Like my 893 00:45:16.119 --> 00:45:18.840 advice to those people would be like up level your 894 00:45:18.880 --> 00:45:19.719 CS skills. 895 00:45:21.159 --> 00:45:23.320 But I don't see a world anytime soon. 896 00:45:23.159 --> 00:45:27.199 Where if you're in a professional software development setting, that 897 00:45:28.440 --> 00:45:29.719 developers are going away. 898 00:45:29.880 --> 00:45:31.000 I sincerely hope not. 899 00:45:31.199 --> 00:45:34.159 I mean, I'm screwed if I think it's the de 900 00:45:34.239 --> 00:45:38.159 leap there that's problematic. It's that we know you need 901 00:45:38.199 --> 00:45:41.880 the skills in order to utilize LMS effectively. Like you're 902 00:45:41.880 --> 00:45:44.480 not going to be able to just job off your 903 00:45:44.920 --> 00:45:47.519 entire brain to this vehicle and have it go at 904 00:45:47.559 --> 00:45:50.280 full speed without thinking. It really does require critical thinking 905 00:45:50.480 --> 00:45:53.320 to interact with it effectively. And then that's what you're saying. 906 00:45:53.360 --> 00:45:55.840 And I think the problem is, Yeah, I think part 907 00:45:55.840 --> 00:45:58.960 of the problem is that some companies believe that that's 908 00:45:59.400 --> 00:46:02.320 not necessarily the case, that you can delegate this out 909 00:46:02.360 --> 00:46:03.480 to an LM and have it. 910 00:46:05.519 --> 00:46:07.400 Some companies are just buying the hype that we don't 911 00:46:07.400 --> 00:46:08.480 need to hire developers anymore. 912 00:46:08.480 --> 00:46:11.000 I and there are companies out there that are, like, 913 00:46:11.039 --> 00:46:14.440 you know, we are an agentic building thing. There is 914 00:46:14.519 --> 00:46:18.800 like the software developer Devin or whatever. Sure, yeah, so 915 00:46:19.159 --> 00:46:21.400 I mean, and I think what I'm saying is, I 916 00:46:21.440 --> 00:46:22.360 know those can't work. 917 00:46:22.840 --> 00:46:25.440 But I think that's those companies will find out when 918 00:46:25.440 --> 00:46:27.800 they try to replace their development with Devan. 919 00:46:28.079 --> 00:46:28.239 Yeah. 920 00:46:28.239 --> 00:46:31.119 I don't like building dev is Devin building Devin because 921 00:46:31.159 --> 00:46:33.119 I don't. I don't think he is or they are 922 00:46:33.159 --> 00:46:36.719 doing it that. Yeah. But I think the bigger problem 923 00:46:36.760 --> 00:46:39.599 is that the leap from hey, I'm someone who doesn't 924 00:46:39.639 --> 00:46:44.760 have technical capabilities to I want a job utilizing technical capabilities. 925 00:46:44.920 --> 00:46:48.440 That gap is growing and harder to get into it 926 00:46:48.679 --> 00:46:52.679 now because the technology available for us interact with is 927 00:46:53.079 --> 00:46:56.239 much more complicated than it was five years ago, ten 928 00:46:56.320 --> 00:46:59.800 years ago, twenty years ago, and the skills that you 929 00:46:59.800 --> 00:47:02.760 get from even training a little bit, like teaching yourself 930 00:47:02.800 --> 00:47:05.639 skilling up skilling even a little bit, is much further 931 00:47:05.719 --> 00:47:08.679 away from what companies are looking for. At least that's 932 00:47:08.760 --> 00:47:12.159 my perspective that I think I'm seeing. And I think 933 00:47:12.199 --> 00:47:14.079 the LMS are contributing to that gap. 934 00:47:16.199 --> 00:47:17.159 I'm sure like, Okay. 935 00:47:17.199 --> 00:47:20.360 So say you're a company and you're spending one hundreds 936 00:47:20.400 --> 00:47:23.280 of million dollars on software developers. I'm sure you're like, God, 937 00:47:23.280 --> 00:47:26.280 I would like to spend less money and have equal output. 938 00:47:26.320 --> 00:47:29.039 And you could be like, Okay, I'm going to hire 939 00:47:29.320 --> 00:47:33.320 AI software engineers the DEFN example, And I've tried Devan 940 00:47:33.440 --> 00:47:36.639 and it's a neat vision. Devin, I don't want to 941 00:47:37.079 --> 00:47:38.599 I'm not gonna shoot on Devon. It didn't work that 942 00:47:38.639 --> 00:47:41.000 well for us. I know they're improving it, but it doesn't. 943 00:47:41.239 --> 00:47:45.559 It's like that model today does not work. Will that 944 00:47:45.599 --> 00:47:48.639 model work in five ten years? 945 00:47:48.800 --> 00:47:51.519 I don't know. I'm still skeptical. I think any company 946 00:47:51.559 --> 00:47:55.880 that finds that they want to improve their. 947 00:47:57.239 --> 00:48:01.000 Cost efficiency on the software side by placing their developers 948 00:48:01.119 --> 00:48:04.840 is going to be in a I think it's just 949 00:48:04.880 --> 00:48:06.760 they're going to find that they don't get the ROI 950 00:48:06.840 --> 00:48:09.239 on that, and that the better ROI right now is 951 00:48:09.280 --> 00:48:13.039 to empower your developers and like give them tools that 952 00:48:13.199 --> 00:48:14.519 let them be more productive. 953 00:48:15.039 --> 00:48:16.840 I'm saying this. I'm obviously super biased. 954 00:48:16.840 --> 00:48:19.119 I run a developer tools company where I'm building something 955 00:48:19.119 --> 00:48:22.400 where the mission is empowered developers. But I truly believe 956 00:48:22.440 --> 00:48:25.000 that that's like the right way to approach this. And 957 00:48:25.679 --> 00:48:27.719 you know, it's like companies will try whatever they're going 958 00:48:27.800 --> 00:48:29.880 to try, but I think that they're going to stick 959 00:48:30.119 --> 00:48:34.079 with something that actually gives them the result. I don't 960 00:48:34.079 --> 00:48:37.199 think that they're like the economic incentives are such that 961 00:48:37.320 --> 00:48:40.400 like if JP Morgan replaced all their developers with AI 962 00:48:40.440 --> 00:48:44.559 software engineers and then like all their bank and transactions. 963 00:48:43.760 --> 00:48:45.800 Failed, they'd be like, this is not the right move. 964 00:48:45.880 --> 00:48:48.280 And so I do think that there's like back pressure 965 00:48:48.920 --> 00:48:51.079 on doing something that actually works. 966 00:48:53.280 --> 00:48:56.159 I think that's a great model, and I encourage them 967 00:48:56.199 --> 00:48:59.000 to do that, and then when it blows up, I 968 00:48:59.000 --> 00:49:01.159 want them to get over to my website where I 969 00:49:01.159 --> 00:49:03.280 have my consulting rates listed. 970 00:49:03.719 --> 00:49:08.159 Exactly they're gonna need. They're going to need some smart people. 971 00:49:08.719 --> 00:49:11.840 We actually went on smart people still, Yeah, I mean 972 00:49:12.440 --> 00:49:14.599 for sure, for sure, I mean we actually went We 973 00:49:14.599 --> 00:49:17.199 actually did a deep dive in this area in our 974 00:49:17.280 --> 00:49:21.440 episode on the Develops report from from from Dora in 975 00:49:21.480 --> 00:49:25.199 twenty twenty four. Okay, where like the I don't know 976 00:49:25.199 --> 00:49:27.039 if you've read it, but the actual results was like 977 00:49:27.400 --> 00:49:33.119 the value that lms were providing to organizations was suspect 978 00:49:33.280 --> 00:49:38.079 like it was. It wasn't significantly different than where they 979 00:49:38.159 --> 00:49:40.400 had been before. It was very difficult for organizations to 980 00:49:40.480 --> 00:49:43.360 justify that the value to the bottom line or the 981 00:49:43.440 --> 00:49:46.360 value to the products that were being delivered. I think 982 00:49:46.360 --> 00:49:48.079 the interesting thing was the one thing I did say 983 00:49:48.119 --> 00:49:51.039 is that people were happier with using the LMS, but 984 00:49:51.039 --> 00:49:55.639 it didn't actually reduce toil and it didn't didn't reduce 985 00:49:56.559 --> 00:49:58.760 the amount of time spent doing things that they didn't like, 986 00:49:58.800 --> 00:50:01.360 which is interesting. I think it gives the most value 987 00:50:01.400 --> 00:50:05.119 to people who are positive optimistic about AI. So if 988 00:50:05.119 --> 00:50:06.800 you like AI, you should use this. 989 00:50:08.960 --> 00:50:10.320 I can tell you experience from WARP. 990 00:50:10.440 --> 00:50:13.960 So so there's the way we think about users coming 991 00:50:13.960 --> 00:50:16.039 into WARP. There's some users who are coming into WARP 992 00:50:16.119 --> 00:50:18.199 because they're like I love AI. 993 00:50:18.639 --> 00:50:21.519 They're like, I want I love this new technology. 994 00:50:21.679 --> 00:50:24.039 I want to like use it in all my tools, 995 00:50:24.760 --> 00:50:27.800 And those are great users for us, Like they come 996 00:50:27.800 --> 00:50:30.519 in they're like, holy shit, I can I can use. 997 00:50:30.440 --> 00:50:32.719 A terminal in this totally new way. That is not 998 00:50:32.880 --> 00:50:34.559 the majority users. 999 00:50:34.599 --> 00:50:36.519 So the majority user for us is what I would 1000 00:50:36.519 --> 00:50:41.840 call like an AI neutral like developer who might be like, Okay, 1001 00:50:41.880 --> 00:50:44.480 I'm open to this, but it's like there's a lot 1002 00:50:44.480 --> 00:50:47.400 of hype, I have a bunch of inherent skepticism. And 1003 00:50:47.480 --> 00:50:51.960 for those users, the challenge for us is to get 1004 00:50:52.039 --> 00:50:55.559 them to actually see the value of the AI and 1005 00:50:55.639 --> 00:50:58.440 like actually use it. And so the the way that 1006 00:50:58.480 --> 00:51:01.639 we've like figured out how to do that is that 1007 00:51:02.599 --> 00:51:04.880 it's very similar to that tool that you mentioned earlier, 1008 00:51:04.960 --> 00:51:08.440 the fuck and so like the like when you have 1009 00:51:08.480 --> 00:51:11.920 an error in the in warp and it's like, oh shit, 1010 00:51:12.039 --> 00:51:13.559 like I'm missing this. I don't know if I'm a 1011 00:51:13.559 --> 00:51:15.800 lot to sware on this podcast, but I'm missing this. 1012 00:51:15.920 --> 00:51:18.400 Uh, you know Python dependency. 1013 00:51:18.880 --> 00:51:20.679 We show something where it's like, hey, we can fix 1014 00:51:20.719 --> 00:51:24.039 this for you, and like all you have to do 1015 00:51:24.079 --> 00:51:26.199 is say command enter and we fix it for you. 1016 00:51:26.280 --> 00:51:31.199 And then that's like a like a conversion moment. And 1017 00:51:31.239 --> 00:51:34.440 so like, I guess my point here is like kind 1018 00:51:34.440 --> 00:51:36.159 of piggyback them off. Your point is like there's some 1019 00:51:36.199 --> 00:51:38.639 people who are just like into this and like they're 1020 00:51:38.639 --> 00:51:40.719 gonna love it, and maybe they're they love it even 1021 00:51:40.760 --> 00:51:42.519 if it isn't really helping them and they're just like 1022 00:51:43.679 --> 00:51:46.639 messing around with LMS all day. But I do think, 1023 00:51:46.800 --> 00:51:50.519 based on our experience converting people who don't inherently want 1024 00:51:50.559 --> 00:51:53.960 to use this technology that there there must be value 1025 00:51:54.039 --> 00:51:56.239 because we have, like I said, we have a lot 1026 00:51:56.280 --> 00:52:00.119 of people paying us for something that that like, and 1027 00:52:00.159 --> 00:52:01.519 I don't think that people are just going to pay 1028 00:52:01.559 --> 00:52:02.840 us for something that I'll find valuable. 1029 00:52:03.159 --> 00:52:06.199 Sure, and a lot of them were not AI enthusiasts 1030 00:52:06.239 --> 00:52:06.559 to start. 1031 00:52:06.639 --> 00:52:11.159 There are people who tell us like, oh shit, like 1032 00:52:11.559 --> 00:52:14.519 this thing just saved me hours and I love that. 1033 00:52:14.639 --> 00:52:17.280 So that's like the you know, my kind of counter 1034 00:52:17.280 --> 00:52:17.920 to what you're saying. 1035 00:52:18.239 --> 00:52:20.960 Yeah, I'm really curious, you said, so the commands are 1036 00:52:20.960 --> 00:52:24.679 going through this proxy layer that you're you're hosting and 1037 00:52:24.840 --> 00:52:27.360 before interacting with the model prior. So I don't know 1038 00:52:27.400 --> 00:52:30.239 if if you can share, but maybe there's some interesting 1039 00:52:30.480 --> 00:52:32.719 metrics or data that you've been able to collect based 1040 00:52:32.719 --> 00:52:35.960 off of what people are looking for, what has been searched, 1041 00:52:36.519 --> 00:52:39.159 what sorts of problems are being fixed, anything in this area. 1042 00:52:39.880 --> 00:52:43.360 Yeah, so we have a group of like alpha testers 1043 00:52:43.400 --> 00:52:49.400 who give us like data collection access essentially, and so 1044 00:52:49.559 --> 00:52:51.960 really common use cases where we're helping people are the 1045 00:52:52.159 --> 00:52:55.599 like install dependencies, the like. 1046 00:52:57.440 --> 00:53:01.039 Get my get is messed up, Like I did something. 1047 00:53:01.039 --> 00:53:02.519 I mean some weird get state and I need to 1048 00:53:02.519 --> 00:53:04.519 get out of it. 1049 00:53:04.599 --> 00:53:08.239 We are increasingly fixing compiler errors for people, so intrest 1050 00:53:08.239 --> 00:53:12.079 of like simple compiler errors and the air log isn't 1051 00:53:12.079 --> 00:53:12.960 the terminal we fix. 1052 00:53:13.679 --> 00:53:15.199 We get people who. 1053 00:53:16.880 --> 00:53:22.480 A lot of like Kubernetes, Docker Helm, like those types 1054 00:53:22.519 --> 00:53:25.719 of issues where there's very heavy command line usage and 1055 00:53:25.800 --> 00:53:30.760 kind of you know, pretty complex commands that you need 1056 00:53:30.800 --> 00:53:31.000 to do. 1057 00:53:31.119 --> 00:53:32.559 Is another really popular area. 1058 00:53:33.079 --> 00:53:35.199 We do things where we write scripts for people to 1059 00:53:35.239 --> 00:53:37.159 automate things that they're doing over and over again, and 1060 00:53:37.199 --> 00:53:39.599 so you know, it's it's a mix. I would say, 1061 00:53:39.639 --> 00:53:42.199 like though, really like prime use cases for us to 1062 00:53:42.239 --> 00:53:46.039 start are things that are pretty terminal oriented. And then 1063 00:53:46.679 --> 00:53:49.719 increasingly as people realize you can fix coding stuff and work, 1064 00:53:50.000 --> 00:53:52.679 and we guide them into that the coding stuff matters 1065 00:53:52.719 --> 00:53:53.400 a bunch too. 1066 00:53:53.320 --> 00:53:55.599 Because just like developer spend a lot of time writing code. 1067 00:53:58.880 --> 00:54:01.880 I think one of the things that that doesn't really 1068 00:54:01.880 --> 00:54:04.760 get highlighted enough is that there actually is a pretty 1069 00:54:04.800 --> 00:54:08.920 steep learning curve to using these AI tools. I think 1070 00:54:08.920 --> 00:54:12.760 there's an expectation that oh, it's AI, I just go 1071 00:54:12.920 --> 00:54:16.079 in and it's going to make my life magical, but 1072 00:54:16.239 --> 00:54:20.639 really my experience with it has been learning how bad 1073 00:54:20.679 --> 00:54:26.320 I actually suck at communication? And that was the first job. Yeah, 1074 00:54:26.360 --> 00:54:28.239 Like that was my first job, is to figure out 1075 00:54:28.280 --> 00:54:29.159 how to communicate. 1076 00:54:29.920 --> 00:54:30.480 It's weird. 1077 00:54:30.519 --> 00:54:33.119 It's turning every programmer into someone who needs to know 1078 00:54:33.119 --> 00:54:36.559 how to write, which is like kind of a crazy skill. 1079 00:54:36.639 --> 00:54:40.119 But like, yeah, the quality of what you get. 1080 00:54:39.960 --> 00:54:43.679 Out of these llms is highly dependent upon how good 1081 00:54:43.719 --> 00:54:46.039 you are prompting them, how good you are at providing 1082 00:54:46.079 --> 00:54:47.159 them with the right context to. 1083 00:54:47.159 --> 00:54:52.599 Answer your question. And if you Yeah, who would have thought. 1084 00:54:52.400 --> 00:54:54.360 That, like being really good at like writing English would 1085 00:54:54.360 --> 00:54:55.360 have been like the core thing. 1086 00:54:55.440 --> 00:54:58.559 But I guess, I guess like people engineers write design docs. 1087 00:54:58.559 --> 00:55:00.159 It's not that different from that skill. 1088 00:55:02.519 --> 00:55:05.039 It's a real behavior change and it's a real skill, 1089 00:55:05.199 --> 00:55:07.280 and I think that I think it's a great observation. 1090 00:55:07.960 --> 00:55:08.199 Agree. 1091 00:55:08.239 --> 00:55:11.719 I mean, I know, I went to university specifically to 1092 00:55:11.800 --> 00:55:15.039 study engineering so that I wouldn't have to read and 1093 00:55:15.079 --> 00:55:19.360 write words. And now my life I pretty much just 1094 00:55:19.840 --> 00:55:23.559 write a lot of blog posts, knowledge based articles, you know, 1095 00:55:23.679 --> 00:55:26.800 chat with lms, like it's every single day, like there 1096 00:55:26.840 --> 00:55:29.079 are it's just words. It's just words. That's that's my 1097 00:55:29.119 --> 00:55:29.800 whole life now. 1098 00:55:30.440 --> 00:55:34.440 Yeah, yeah, I think it's worth elaborating on though, just 1099 00:55:34.440 --> 00:55:40.719 just like that's one of the reasons I'm being more 1100 00:55:41.119 --> 00:55:43.880 pushing people more into AI. It's like, yeah, I know, 1101 00:55:43.960 --> 00:55:46.199 you get it. You tried it, it made a mistake, 1102 00:55:46.239 --> 00:55:47.719 and you're ready to write it off. But I really 1103 00:55:47.760 --> 00:55:50.239 need you to stick with this and learn how to 1104 00:55:50.400 --> 00:55:54.000 use it, because by putting that time and effort in now, 1105 00:55:54.920 --> 00:55:57.119 you're going to figure these skills out and learn how 1106 00:55:57.119 --> 00:56:01.599 to make it productive. And then as the technology self improved, 1107 00:56:01.880 --> 00:56:05.559 you're going to start getting to take exponential benefits of that, 1108 00:56:05.800 --> 00:56:09.039 and so you and your career are going to be 1109 00:56:09.559 --> 00:56:13.119 way way ahead of everyone that you're sitting with now 1110 00:56:13.159 --> 00:56:16.000 who says, oh AI sucks five years from now. 1111 00:56:18.199 --> 00:56:21.119 I believe I'm one hundred percent with you that that's 1112 00:56:21.159 --> 00:56:24.840 like that's the smart approach. Is like, yeah, I think 1113 00:56:24.880 --> 00:56:27.280 it's like the tool analogy is the right analogy right 1114 00:56:27.440 --> 00:56:30.440 right now, where it's like you can't get mad at 1115 00:56:30.639 --> 00:56:31.679 them if. 1116 00:56:31.480 --> 00:56:37.960 You, like I didn't learn, I can't get mad. 1117 00:56:38.559 --> 00:56:40.000 But it's like it's like counter productive. 1118 00:56:40.000 --> 00:56:43.440 And I think if you've remove the hype for a 1119 00:56:43.519 --> 00:56:45.719 second and just think of it as like it's a 1120 00:56:45.719 --> 00:56:49.559 computer program that you're using it's like, yeah, you got 1121 00:56:49.639 --> 00:56:52.360 to learn how to use it, and like, you know, 1122 00:56:52.360 --> 00:56:53.920 what is it like R T F M, Like I 1123 00:56:54.280 --> 00:56:56.800 kind of hate that, but it's a it's like learn 1124 00:56:56.840 --> 00:56:58.519 how to learn how to use it. If you want 1125 00:56:58.519 --> 00:56:59.840 to get the most out of it, is one hundred 1126 00:56:59.840 --> 00:57:02.920 percent right and if you are if you think of 1127 00:57:03.000 --> 00:57:06.639 it instead as like a dumb coworker you don't want 1128 00:57:06.639 --> 00:57:11.559 to associate with. But that dumb coworker is like someone 1129 00:57:11.559 --> 00:57:14.440 who's on your well, I don't know where I'm going 1130 00:57:14.440 --> 00:57:15.679 with this. 1131 00:57:17.360 --> 00:57:18.639 Think of it as a tool that you got to 1132 00:57:18.679 --> 00:57:19.360 get the most out of. 1133 00:57:19.639 --> 00:57:21.840 I think I think you're onto something there really important 1134 00:57:22.000 --> 00:57:23.559 because I think one of the things that a lot 1135 00:57:23.679 --> 00:57:25.880 of the elms we see out there, and I think 1136 00:57:25.880 --> 00:57:28.079 this is where some of the value is definitely lost. 1137 00:57:28.239 --> 00:57:31.039 They don't do a great job of teaching you how 1138 00:57:31.119 --> 00:57:34.559 to be an effective prompt engineer, like how to actually 1139 00:57:34.599 --> 00:57:37.880 create communication with the tool, to Will's point, and I 1140 00:57:37.920 --> 00:57:40.159 think part of it is because those same companies have 1141 00:57:40.239 --> 00:57:42.480 no idea how their own thing works, so they can't 1142 00:57:42.519 --> 00:57:45.800 actually give good recommendations. But I think they do figure 1143 00:57:45.800 --> 00:57:47.960 it out over time, because there are communities that pop 1144 00:57:48.039 --> 00:57:49.760 up that are discussing this and then they bring that 1145 00:57:49.800 --> 00:57:52.440 knowledge back in where you know, we see examples where 1146 00:57:52.920 --> 00:57:57.360 like the Dalli model that open ai has is the 1147 00:57:57.440 --> 00:58:02.440 prompt is being mutated by their one or whatever based 1148 00:58:02.440 --> 00:58:05.440 on what the user inputs, because it's just nonsensical and 1149 00:58:05.679 --> 00:58:08.679 needs to be mutated. And like those instructions, it would 1150 00:58:08.679 --> 00:58:10.400 be great to be exposed. And I just feel like 1151 00:58:10.400 --> 00:58:12.360 these tools don't do this good of a job. But 1152 00:58:12.440 --> 00:58:14.679 you work on the application layer, and so I feel 1153 00:58:14.719 --> 00:58:17.440 like you're providing a much better experience for teaching people 1154 00:58:17.639 --> 00:58:21.119 how to utilize the tool effectively because you have to 1155 00:58:21.360 --> 00:58:23.239 because you're actually selling a real. 1156 00:58:23.079 --> 00:58:27.119 Product, right right, No, No, And it's like it's a thing 1157 00:58:27.119 --> 00:58:30.199 that we're constantly thinking through, Like we have a feature 1158 00:58:30.280 --> 00:58:36.719 that is suggested prompts essentially where you know, if there's 1159 00:58:36.760 --> 00:58:39.320 a like the most common use case again is like 1160 00:58:39.320 --> 00:58:42.679 an error error resolution, but well, based on the error 1161 00:58:42.679 --> 00:58:45.159 that we see, we will suggest to prompt. And the 1162 00:58:45.199 --> 00:58:47.679 prompt probably is a little bit more than just like 1163 00:58:47.800 --> 00:58:50.440 fix this, which is what a person might write. It 1164 00:58:50.519 --> 00:58:53.880 is probably like fix this russer that is caused by 1165 00:58:54.440 --> 00:58:58.440 incorrect mutability, And like you provide, we do everything we 1166 00:58:58.480 --> 00:59:02.519 can to make it the minimum amount of work, and 1167 00:59:02.559 --> 00:59:05.400 also to show the user like, hey, here's what we're 1168 00:59:05.440 --> 00:59:07.320 actually telling the model, so that if you want to 1169 00:59:07.360 --> 00:59:10.519 do this on your own next time, without like Warth 1170 00:59:10.559 --> 00:59:11.880 doing it, you can do it. 1171 00:59:13.760 --> 00:59:16.679 So that that that's it's a key skill, like totally 1172 00:59:16.760 --> 00:59:18.039 ride of it. That's something that matters. 1173 00:59:18.760 --> 00:59:20.840 I think this kind of shows my bias because like 1174 00:59:20.960 --> 00:59:23.960 forcing the developers to have to communicate properly, I just 1175 00:59:24.000 --> 00:59:26.199 don't see that as a problem. I'm like, this is 1176 00:59:26.239 --> 00:59:28.360 a good thing. This should be a feature, not a butt. 1177 00:59:29.159 --> 00:59:31.920 Well, okay, maybe I'll put this into perspective, Jillian in 1178 00:59:32.000 --> 00:59:38.199 a different way. It's communicating correctly is a subjective perspective 1179 00:59:38.280 --> 00:59:41.320 based off of the people involved in that collaboration. When 1180 00:59:41.360 --> 00:59:44.559 you're communicating with a second person, you know there's a 1181 00:59:44.559 --> 00:59:48.159 culture involved there, your values involved, the definitions of words 1182 00:59:48.159 --> 00:59:49.920 that you grew up with, all these things in that 1183 00:59:50.119 --> 00:59:52.840 and when you're using an LM, you don't like it's 1184 00:59:52.960 --> 00:59:55.760 challenging to figure out what its culture is, how it 1185 00:59:55.840 --> 00:59:58.880 responds to certain things, and so you have to learn 1186 00:59:59.000 --> 01:00:02.000 that tool. So I think there's a difference between like 1187 01:00:02.119 --> 01:00:04.440 you're not becoming a better communicator. You're becoming a better 1188 01:00:04.440 --> 01:00:09.880 communicator with that thing. And I think is it the 1189 01:00:10.119 --> 01:00:12.599 good thing to force people to do, I mean communicating 1190 01:00:12.599 --> 01:00:15.079 with other human beings that you work with, Yes, for sure. 1191 01:00:15.519 --> 01:00:18.400 Forcing them to learn how to use, you know, end 1192 01:00:18.440 --> 01:00:21.920 tools out there that all are slightly different, have individual 1193 01:00:21.960 --> 01:00:25.320 mindsets or cultures or whatever. The corpus and material you 1194 01:00:25.320 --> 01:00:27.920 know that I think is open for challenge and debate. 1195 01:00:29.960 --> 01:00:32.440 But I just see this as like a people living 1196 01:00:32.480 --> 01:00:35.079 in society kind of issue. Like when I was a kid, 1197 01:00:35.119 --> 01:00:37.159 my dad was like, you're going to take a typing 1198 01:00:37.159 --> 01:00:39.840 class because that wasn't just an automatic thing back then, 1199 01:00:39.920 --> 01:00:42.320 you guys all right, like this was this was a 1200 01:00:42.320 --> 01:00:45.440 while ago, And I kind of just see AI as 1201 01:00:45.480 --> 01:00:49.559 sort of like I think it's it's very like pivotal, 1202 01:00:49.559 --> 01:00:52.199 it's paradigm shifting, but it's it's another iteration of that. 1203 01:00:52.239 --> 01:00:54.440 It's another tool that we're adding on that people are 1204 01:00:54.480 --> 01:00:56.199 going to learn how to use that everybody's going to 1205 01:00:56.280 --> 01:00:58.840 have to use, just like I don't know, like now, 1206 01:00:58.880 --> 01:01:01.480 my kid's just I did not have the option to 1207 01:01:01.559 --> 01:01:03.639 sign them up for a typing class or not. It's 1208 01:01:03.719 --> 01:01:05.760 just part of their curriculum that they are just doing. 1209 01:01:06.639 --> 01:01:11.079 I think you should put them in a typing class. 1210 01:01:13.000 --> 01:01:16.039 No no, no, no, like an old school with the old 1211 01:01:16.320 --> 01:01:19.559 with the old man, just to screw with them. 1212 01:01:19.840 --> 01:01:23.480 See you know here here I have I have, I 1213 01:01:23.480 --> 01:01:27.559 have good parable here because when I was in the 1214 01:01:27.559 --> 01:01:29.960 fifth grade, I think I was in a typing class 1215 01:01:29.960 --> 01:01:32.159 in my school was provided a public school. You got 1216 01:01:32.159 --> 01:01:35.119 a type in class, and I learned a S D 1217 01:01:35.360 --> 01:01:37.880 F J K L semi over and over again for 1218 01:01:38.159 --> 01:01:42.119 for a year. And realistically I don't use quirdy. Actually 1219 01:01:42.239 --> 01:01:46.960 I find it to be a lackluster, subpar keyboard layout. 1220 01:01:47.079 --> 01:01:49.119 And so I was taught, you know, something that took 1221 01:01:49.159 --> 01:01:52.280 me many months to unlearn so I could be more 1222 01:01:52.320 --> 01:01:59.480 effective on my keyboard use. I'm a I'm actually I'm 1223 01:01:59.519 --> 01:02:02.679 a prog. I'mer Devorak fan. But I have used Linux 1224 01:02:02.719 --> 01:02:05.599 to uh configure like all of the almost all the 1225 01:02:05.679 --> 01:02:09.159 keys so that the the third the third level not 1226 01:02:09.239 --> 01:02:12.599 shift and control about the special al gr key to 1227 01:02:12.840 --> 01:02:15.480 give me other things that are beneficial for programming and 1228 01:02:15.599 --> 01:02:18.880 German and Greek and Roman, and however I want to 1229 01:02:18.960 --> 01:02:21.559 utilize them. 1230 01:02:21.760 --> 01:02:22.800 Sounds like a lot of work. 1231 01:02:23.760 --> 01:02:26.239 Well, this is the thing is we're talking about productivity 1232 01:02:26.239 --> 01:02:29.199 and optimizing your flow. And I find that I type, 1233 01:02:29.360 --> 01:02:32.679 you know, you with an umloud or a with an umloud, 1234 01:02:32.840 --> 01:02:36.719 or a dollar sign or the euro sign frequently, and 1235 01:02:36.760 --> 01:02:38.880 so I want an easy way to type those. I 1236 01:02:38.880 --> 01:02:41.519 don't want to google euro sign and then copy and 1237 01:02:41.559 --> 01:02:43.960 paste that somewhere. You know, it's like on your on 1238 01:02:44.000 --> 01:02:46.159 your phone. Isn't there an emoji key where you can 1239 01:02:46.360 --> 01:02:48.960 hit emoji and then find the emoji you want? I mean, 1240 01:02:49.000 --> 01:02:51.239 I I see the LMS a sort of similar tool 1241 01:02:51.280 --> 01:02:54.400 from that perspective, Right, you're you're hot, You're hot keying 1242 01:02:54.480 --> 01:02:57.400 over to your warp uh terminal to you know, type 1243 01:02:57.400 --> 01:02:59.000 those things out and get the answer rather than having 1244 01:02:59.039 --> 01:02:59.960 to search on the internet. 1245 01:03:02.440 --> 01:03:04.320 Yeah, but if it's what you're doing, it's what you're doing, 1246 01:03:04.320 --> 01:03:06.639 and there should be like a productive way to, you know, 1247 01:03:06.719 --> 01:03:07.719 to accomquish the goal. 1248 01:03:08.559 --> 01:03:12.119 Look, my five my keyboard layout is open source, it's available. 1249 01:03:12.119 --> 01:03:17.559 And do you have blank key caps? 1250 01:03:17.599 --> 01:03:22.480 To Warren, no, I am, so this is not the 1251 01:03:22.519 --> 01:03:24.159 episode where we talk about my keyboard. 1252 01:03:25.480 --> 01:03:29.400 I think it's becoming that board. 1253 01:03:30.920 --> 01:03:33.599 I took a Quirity keyboard. It's the Logitech. I don't 1254 01:03:33.599 --> 01:03:35.519 even remember what number it is like K four hundred 1255 01:03:35.639 --> 01:03:37.280 or something. It says on here somewhere. I have no 1256 01:03:37.320 --> 01:03:39.880 idea what it is. It's their silent version, the one 1257 01:03:39.920 --> 01:03:42.440 that makes the least amount of sound possible, because I 1258 01:03:42.480 --> 01:03:45.320 care about noise more than anything else. And then I 1259 01:03:45.440 --> 01:03:48.320 just moved the keys everywhere I could. And this thing 1260 01:03:48.360 --> 01:03:50.440 you'll find out about keyboards that are not designing this. 1261 01:03:50.719 --> 01:03:53.320 The F key and the J key are have a 1262 01:03:53.360 --> 01:03:55.639 different form factor than all the other keys on the keyboard, 1263 01:03:55.639 --> 01:03:57.639 so you can't swap them around. I don't know why 1264 01:03:57.679 --> 01:03:59.960 they do this, just to piss you off a parent, 1265 01:04:01.880 --> 01:04:03.440 you know, it's like these two keys are going to 1266 01:04:03.480 --> 01:04:06.559 be different. I don't know why, but they are. And 1267 01:04:07.000 --> 01:04:08.679 so all the keys on my keyboard are in different 1268 01:04:08.719 --> 01:04:11.480 spots except for the F and the J they're exactly 1269 01:04:11.599 --> 01:04:12.800 where they started on the cordy. 1270 01:04:13.360 --> 01:04:15.639 I think it's because that's like home based, right, Like 1271 01:04:15.639 --> 01:04:19.880 they're like you want like a tactle wave finding out 1272 01:04:19.880 --> 01:04:20.639 where those are. 1273 01:04:20.920 --> 01:04:24.239 But it's the key cap form factor, not like the 1274 01:04:24.480 --> 01:04:27.360 key itself. So it's like, I don't know. The only 1275 01:04:27.400 --> 01:04:29.679 the only justication that I can figure out is that 1276 01:04:29.760 --> 01:04:31.239 if you took all the keys off the keyboard and 1277 01:04:31.280 --> 01:04:32.920 you're like, oh, where do I put them back? I 1278 01:04:32.960 --> 01:04:35.760 don't know, Oh, these two have a different form. Maybe 1279 01:04:35.800 --> 01:04:37.079 the F and the jay goes there, and then I 1280 01:04:37.119 --> 01:04:39.039 can figure out where the other ones go. And I'm like, 1281 01:04:39.079 --> 01:04:41.320 that's a pretty suspect. But it's like every keyboard I've 1282 01:04:41.320 --> 01:04:43.119 seen has this problem. 1283 01:04:43.800 --> 01:04:47.079 I got a mechanical keyboard once and. 1284 01:04:48.599 --> 01:04:52.360 My wife made me stop using. She's just like, that 1285 01:04:52.480 --> 01:04:57.800 is the most absolutely obnoxious, annoying sounding thing that you like, 1286 01:04:57.960 --> 01:04:59.840 put that away. I don't know want to see that again. 1287 01:05:00.400 --> 01:05:02.159 I was like, no, that's cool, Like it's like I 1288 01:05:02.199 --> 01:05:04.000 love the feel of it. And she's like it's like, 1289 01:05:04.960 --> 01:05:07.239 you know, it's like really, lad, Yeah. 1290 01:05:07.039 --> 01:05:11.559 I've removed those from my kids Christmas book. She's not 1291 01:05:11.599 --> 01:05:13.039 there anymore. I'm not doing this. 1292 01:05:13.719 --> 01:05:13.960 See. 1293 01:05:14.000 --> 01:05:15.559 I know that that would not work for me because 1294 01:05:15.559 --> 01:05:18.239 I'm a very angry typer sometimes, like my wife. My 1295 01:05:18.280 --> 01:05:20.760 wife can figure out like what application I'm using in 1296 01:05:20.800 --> 01:05:23.679 what I'm doing, but based off of how angrily I'm 1297 01:05:23.679 --> 01:05:26.599 typing on the keyboard, like when I'm typing a blog 1298 01:05:26.599 --> 01:05:29.280 post or writing a message in slack somewhere or an email, 1299 01:05:29.320 --> 01:05:32.480 it sounds different to her, and so I think it's like, 1300 01:05:32.519 --> 01:05:33.800 how how angry I am? 1301 01:05:34.039 --> 01:05:34.280 You know? 1302 01:05:34.360 --> 01:05:35.239 When I'm in an email. 1303 01:05:35.239 --> 01:05:36.840 It's the exact same thing. 1304 01:05:37.039 --> 01:05:42.440 If my wife can be like, don't send that, take 1305 01:05:42.480 --> 01:05:45.280 a breath, don't don't send like I can, I'm like like, 1306 01:05:46.199 --> 01:05:49.599 and she's like, no, take it fre either don't don't 1307 01:05:49.840 --> 01:05:53.000 And it's the thing actually is like as a manager, 1308 01:05:53.039 --> 01:05:56.000 I try to remind myself of of like, don't don't 1309 01:05:56.079 --> 01:05:58.360 know angry slacks, no angry emails. 1310 01:05:58.519 --> 01:06:00.719 Oh no, he's typing the manifest Get in the car, 1311 01:06:00.800 --> 01:06:01.719 kid's get in the car. 1312 01:06:02.800 --> 01:06:05.239 So maybe, like you know, doesn't Google have like a 1313 01:06:05.360 --> 01:06:07.920 like a drunk email detection. Maybe what we need is 1314 01:06:07.920 --> 01:06:11.800 for the keyboard to have like an angry no what 1315 01:06:11.840 --> 01:06:14.079 We're gonna wait, We're gonna wait fifteen minutes and then 1316 01:06:14.119 --> 01:06:16.079 we're gonna revisit this and see if you would still 1317 01:06:16.119 --> 01:06:16.599 like to send it. 1318 01:06:16.639 --> 01:06:18.960 Look, I feel like, Julian, you haven't tried searching hard enough. 1319 01:06:18.960 --> 01:06:21.599 I'm sure there's some extension out there for your browser 1320 01:06:21.679 --> 01:06:24.079 which runs some sort of LM in the background and 1321 01:06:24.159 --> 01:06:26.840 determines whether your your email has some sort of angry 1322 01:06:26.880 --> 01:06:29.280 tone to it, and well, we'll prevent you from from 1323 01:06:29.400 --> 01:06:31.960 sending an email if it contains though no there is. 1324 01:06:31.960 --> 01:06:34.079 If you use like pro writing aid, it will detect 1325 01:06:34.119 --> 01:06:37.800 the tone of your email and maybe course correct you 1326 01:06:37.960 --> 01:06:41.239 a little bit. And I do I do have that. Yeah, you. 1327 01:06:43.400 --> 01:06:45.800 Hit sand and it comes back and says I didn't 1328 01:06:45.840 --> 01:06:47.440 send this. But I feel like it's a good time 1329 01:06:47.480 --> 01:06:49.719 to talk about your feelings. What's the source of this 1330 01:06:49.840 --> 01:06:50.519 anger for you? 1331 01:06:52.280 --> 01:06:57.639 Let's get to the bottom of these issues. Speaking of 1332 01:06:57.679 --> 01:06:59.360 which I think we need to get back to WARP 1333 01:06:59.400 --> 01:07:03.719 because I have specific questions and more like more future requests. 1334 01:07:04.559 --> 01:07:05.719 Bring it on. 1335 01:07:06.480 --> 01:07:08.760 The point of having the app people on the show 1336 01:07:08.840 --> 01:07:10.280 is that I can be like, if I use this, 1337 01:07:10.440 --> 01:07:12.280 I have things that I want. All right, Like that. 1338 01:07:13.039 --> 01:07:14.400 Tell me what can I do for you? 1339 01:07:14.920 --> 01:07:18.599 So I saw that there's like WARP workflows, and I'm wondering, 1340 01:07:19.559 --> 01:07:21.639 can I do those in reverse? Like I can? Can 1341 01:07:21.679 --> 01:07:23.760 I go through and figure something out and then be like, 1342 01:07:23.800 --> 01:07:26.400 all right, Warp, I'm stupid and I don't remember anything 1343 01:07:26.400 --> 01:07:28.159 that I just did, but I'm probably gonna have to 1344 01:07:28.239 --> 01:07:30.360 do this again. So I would like for you to 1345 01:07:30.400 --> 01:07:32.719 go through my history, figure out what I did, and 1346 01:07:32.880 --> 01:07:35.079 just go put it in like a markdown file or 1347 01:07:35.159 --> 01:07:39.840 some notes or something as opposed to like history doing proactively. 1348 01:07:41.840 --> 01:07:43.800 It's a great idea. We don't quite have that. 1349 01:07:43.840 --> 01:07:46.000 We have the ability to take command that you've already 1350 01:07:46.039 --> 01:07:48.639 run and turn into workflow, just so folks know what 1351 01:07:48.679 --> 01:07:51.599 a workflow is. A workflow is a it's kind of 1352 01:07:51.599 --> 01:07:54.079 like an alias, but it's like a templated command. And 1353 01:07:54.199 --> 01:07:57.000 so if you have like a complicated thing you're doing 1354 01:07:57.079 --> 01:08:00.360 a doctor or like what's your workflow for like cherry 1355 01:08:00.360 --> 01:08:02.760 picking something into a release, you can make it one 1356 01:08:02.800 --> 01:08:06.440 of these templated commands, and then we actually make it 1357 01:08:06.480 --> 01:08:08.400 so it's shareable, which I think is kind of like 1358 01:08:08.800 --> 01:08:10.519 the killer value of it. And so if you're working 1359 01:08:10.559 --> 01:08:14.360 on a development team, you can build up a library 1360 01:08:14.400 --> 01:08:15.159 of these things. 1361 01:08:14.960 --> 01:08:16.880 That you can use in different situations. So if you're 1362 01:08:16.920 --> 01:08:17.640 like an. 1363 01:08:17.640 --> 01:08:19.920 SRI team, it's like, Okay, what are all the commands 1364 01:08:19.920 --> 01:08:21.239 that I need to be able to run the middle 1365 01:08:21.239 --> 01:08:23.039 of a firefight. You can have that and they're all 1366 01:08:23.079 --> 01:08:25.960 sort of in a common library that you have directly 1367 01:08:26.000 --> 01:08:29.640 within warp. We don't have the feature yet of like 1368 01:08:30.479 --> 01:08:34.159 intelligently make these for me from a session, but that's 1369 01:08:34.159 --> 01:08:37.840 a super smart feature. We do have a thing that 1370 01:08:37.840 --> 01:08:40.840 we're haven't launched, but our experimenting with which is like 1371 01:08:41.560 --> 01:08:45.279 essentially like run the output of your command through an 1372 01:08:45.399 --> 01:08:47.760 LLLM and have it summarize for you and pick out 1373 01:08:47.840 --> 01:08:49.239 the interesting and important parts. 1374 01:08:50.079 --> 01:08:53.159 But I like your ideagulian of like figure out what 1375 01:08:53.199 --> 01:08:54.920 I did, record for me so I can do it 1376 01:08:54.960 --> 01:08:56.039 again smart. 1377 01:08:56.079 --> 01:08:59.159 So I found that some people have sworn by this 1378 01:09:00.039 --> 01:09:04.039 ring a chat context session at the end, just tell 1379 01:09:04.079 --> 01:09:06.960 it to like echo back at you what you did, 1380 01:09:07.319 --> 01:09:09.640 like say what did I do? And then when it's done, 1381 01:09:09.720 --> 01:09:11.359 then say, okay, now I want you to take that 1382 01:09:11.439 --> 01:09:14.079 and write a document for me that includes that information 1383 01:09:14.239 --> 01:09:15.800 so that the next time I have this problem, I 1384 01:09:15.800 --> 01:09:17.760 can go and reference that. And with WARP you can say, okay, 1385 01:09:17.760 --> 01:09:19.279 now turn that into a templated command. 1386 01:09:19.359 --> 01:09:21.279 You can totally you could totally do that today and 1387 01:09:21.319 --> 01:09:23.880 WARP the one piece of it that's not like we 1388 01:09:23.920 --> 01:09:26.439 don't tie the loop of turning it into this specific 1389 01:09:27.119 --> 01:09:29.720 like executable thing that is a workflow. 1390 01:09:29.800 --> 01:09:32.399 But you know, we also have like a notebook concept 1391 01:09:32.399 --> 01:09:32.880 and WARP. 1392 01:09:32.720 --> 01:09:36.880 So you could be like, hey, LLM and WARP summarize 1393 01:09:36.880 --> 01:09:39.760 everything I did, turn into a notebook, extract the relevant 1394 01:09:39.760 --> 01:09:44.880 commands for me, but it's not quite as. 1395 01:09:44.279 --> 01:09:46.720 Seamless I think as it could be for Jillian. It's 1396 01:09:46.720 --> 01:09:47.239 a good idea. 1397 01:09:48.039 --> 01:09:50.640 Yeah, I'd really like to be able to have different 1398 01:09:51.560 --> 01:09:53.640 I don't know if it's sessions or context, but I 1399 01:09:53.640 --> 01:09:57.199 suppose one of those where I can say, I don't know. 1400 01:09:57.239 --> 01:09:58.560 I mean, I suppose for me it would be like 1401 01:09:58.680 --> 01:10:01.720 client dependent or contact dependent, or even like tell me 1402 01:10:01.760 --> 01:10:04.920 which environment I'm in, which version of terraform I'm using, 1403 01:10:05.079 --> 01:10:09.000 like you know, all that kind of for sure, like 1404 01:10:09.079 --> 01:10:15.520 it's here, it's it's right here. Yeah, well, yeah, so 1405 01:10:16.359 --> 01:10:17.159 that's what I want. 1406 01:10:17.840 --> 01:10:21.479 Yeah, we don't like. I think that's a super interesting idea. 1407 01:10:21.560 --> 01:10:24.800 I mean, you can you can use warpflort anything about 1408 01:10:24.800 --> 01:10:26.840 your environment today, so you could be like what toolchain 1409 01:10:26.880 --> 01:10:27.439 am I using? 1410 01:10:27.479 --> 01:10:34.199 What are my environment variables? Like what? Uh? Anything? 1411 01:10:34.239 --> 01:10:36.319 You can ask about your history and so you can 1412 01:10:36.319 --> 01:10:38.159 get some of that today, but you can't quick get 1413 01:10:38.600 --> 01:10:40.479 we don't have like packaged episode. When you start a 1414 01:10:40.520 --> 01:10:43.000 new session you can get all that stuff, which would 1415 01:10:43.000 --> 01:10:43.359 be cool. 1416 01:10:45.359 --> 01:10:48.640 Well, I would if we're taking peach requests, I would 1417 01:10:48.640 --> 01:10:50.439 like that. 1418 01:10:51.920 --> 01:10:54.199 I'm gonna I'm gonna force everyone on our team to. 1419 01:10:54.159 --> 01:10:59.600 Listen to this, Well, well, you should probably wait until 1420 01:10:59.600 --> 01:11:02.680 the episode drops and then use uh you know, an 1421 01:11:02.720 --> 01:11:05.199 I'll m to summarize the episode and extract the future 1422 01:11:05.239 --> 01:11:07.159 requests from it, and we can do. 1423 01:11:07.119 --> 01:11:07.600 It that way. 1424 01:11:08.039 --> 01:11:11.239 Or I think there's been so much interesting discussion about 1425 01:11:11.279 --> 01:11:14.960 like philosophy, AI and hear that make them all listen 1426 01:11:14.960 --> 01:11:15.199 to it. 1427 01:11:16.520 --> 01:11:19.760 I don't think. I don't think it's distilled. Summarized version 1428 01:11:19.840 --> 01:11:20.800 is going to do a justice. 1429 01:11:21.560 --> 01:11:24.319 Oh, I totally agree we need human Warren. 1430 01:11:24.439 --> 01:11:26.319 Yeah, I'm gonna put them in a dark room and 1431 01:11:26.359 --> 01:11:27.720 play it back to half speed. 1432 01:11:30.880 --> 01:11:33.720 I don't listen to content any slower than like to 1433 01:11:34.199 --> 01:11:37.479 these days. Before we get on another tangent, I have 1434 01:11:37.520 --> 01:11:40.359 this feeling that we should move off onto onto picks. 1435 01:11:40.560 --> 01:11:44.600 For that, it's probably a good part, good point, good time, 1436 01:11:46.840 --> 01:11:49.640 good words, look at me, work in my words. 1437 01:11:50.039 --> 01:11:51.800 Well then well why don't you go first? 1438 01:11:52.880 --> 01:11:57.920 Right on? Okay, So I'm I have a couple of 1439 01:11:58.000 --> 01:12:05.000 picks today. One I'm blaming you Warren and Matt from 1440 01:12:05.079 --> 01:12:10.520 last week because I got the book Dungeon Crawler Carl, 1441 01:12:10.720 --> 01:12:15.600 and I hate how much I like this book. It's 1442 01:12:15.760 --> 01:12:20.279 just it's dumb and it's funny and it's entertaining, and 1443 01:12:20.319 --> 01:12:23.720 it's engaging, and it's sucked way too much of my 1444 01:12:23.880 --> 01:12:28.239 time last week. So Dungeon Crawler Carl, I can't even 1445 01:12:28.279 --> 01:12:30.600 remember who the author is. Do you remember Warren? 1446 01:12:31.399 --> 01:12:31.439 No? 1447 01:12:31.800 --> 01:12:32.640 I didn't wrack it up. 1448 01:12:33.000 --> 01:12:37.520 Yeah, just google Dungeon Crawler Carl. It's a stupidly fun book, 1449 01:12:38.119 --> 01:12:39.000 very entertaining. 1450 01:12:39.399 --> 01:12:41.560 If you're listening to this episode, the link will be 1451 01:12:41.560 --> 01:12:44.680 included with the podcast, just you know, down below it, 1452 01:12:44.680 --> 01:12:46.039 so you don't even have to google. 1453 01:12:46.119 --> 01:12:47.720 I just click the link right. 1454 01:12:49.319 --> 01:12:53.439 And then the other pick I'm gonna recommend is if 1455 01:12:53.479 --> 01:12:57.760 you haven't Zach you mentioned this earlier, if you haven't 1456 01:12:57.800 --> 01:13:01.319 gone to your favorite AI tool and just started a 1457 01:13:01.439 --> 01:13:05.880 chat about philosophy with it, I highly recommend that. And 1458 01:13:05.960 --> 01:13:07.680 that's going to be my pick for the week because 1459 01:13:07.720 --> 01:13:13.720 it's just it's so much fun to do. And Laurren, 1460 01:13:13.720 --> 01:13:16.239 I know you said that AI is not intelligent, but 1461 01:13:16.560 --> 01:13:18.439 neither are some of the people I hang out with. 1462 01:13:18.600 --> 01:13:22.079 So chatting with AI about philosophy seems to be working 1463 01:13:22.079 --> 01:13:24.760 out quite well because it's just a really cool perspective 1464 01:13:24.800 --> 01:13:27.239 of some of the stuff that it has and some 1465 01:13:27.319 --> 01:13:30.439 of the insights it has to offer, and I've used 1466 01:13:30.479 --> 01:13:36.239 it for setting goals as well and challenge me challenging 1467 01:13:36.279 --> 01:13:38.960 me on those goals, and it's been pretty insightful for that. 1468 01:13:39.159 --> 01:13:42.359 So I think that's one good way to start working 1469 01:13:42.359 --> 01:13:49.439 with AI. And those are my picks. So Jillian, what 1470 01:13:49.479 --> 01:13:50.840 about you? What'd you bring this week? 1471 01:13:51.720 --> 01:13:54.279 I'm going to keep going with the self promotion until 1472 01:13:54.319 --> 01:13:56.960 I'm back up to the lifestyle with which I've become 1473 01:13:57.000 --> 01:14:00.479 a custom And if you go to my website, yeah, yeah, 1474 01:14:00.479 --> 01:14:04.159 that's right, uh dabbleopdevops dot com slash AI. I have 1475 01:14:04.319 --> 01:14:08.640 a data discovery tool for mostly for data science companies. 1476 01:14:08.680 --> 01:14:10.760 If you're not a data science company like I don't, 1477 01:14:10.840 --> 01:14:12.520 I don't like even really know how to talk to you, 1478 01:14:12.560 --> 01:14:15.800 so maybe just ignore this portion. But the idea is 1479 01:14:15.920 --> 01:14:19.159 that you get your data, you load it into the LM, 1480 01:14:19.319 --> 01:14:21.359 and then you can start asking you questions. It kind 1481 01:14:21.359 --> 01:14:23.800 of acts like a maybe like a junior grad student. 1482 01:14:23.800 --> 01:14:25.880 You don't want to like completely trust what it says, 1483 01:14:26.239 --> 01:14:29.920 but it gives you a very good first draft. I'm 1484 01:14:29.960 --> 01:14:33.399 adding the PubMed interface so you can go search medical 1485 01:14:33.439 --> 01:14:36.720 literature and say, like, okay, get me all the papers 1486 01:14:36.800 --> 01:14:40.119 back on this disease or this protein or this drug interaction, 1487 01:14:40.239 --> 01:14:42.920 you know, whatever the things are. Load that into the LM. 1488 01:14:43.079 --> 01:14:45.680 Start asking you questions. I've got a couple different data 1489 01:14:45.680 --> 01:14:49.079 sets open targets, a couple single cell data sets. I 1490 01:14:49.119 --> 01:14:51.680 want to add a couple of transcripts data sets, even 1491 01:14:51.720 --> 01:14:54.359 though those might be out of vogue, because they're still cool, 1492 01:14:54.439 --> 01:14:57.880 you guys, Okay, they're still cool. So anyways, cool things 1493 01:14:57.920 --> 01:15:01.119 are being added to the platform. Anybody wants it, mostly 1494 01:15:01.479 --> 01:15:04.319 in the biotech space. Again, if you're not biotech, I don't. 1495 01:15:04.520 --> 01:15:06.720 I don't really, I don't even know why you're listening 1496 01:15:06.800 --> 01:15:07.760 to me, Like, just tune me out. 1497 01:15:07.800 --> 01:15:11.439 It's fine, don't. Don't reduce your you know, your TAM 1498 01:15:11.479 --> 01:15:13.960 your total adjustable market here. You know, if you don't 1499 01:15:14.039 --> 01:15:15.720 understand what Gillian's saying, maybe you should go to the 1500 01:15:15.720 --> 01:15:17.560 website anyway and see if you can figure out a 1501 01:15:17.640 --> 01:15:18.560 use case for yourself. 1502 01:15:18.920 --> 01:15:21.399 That's true, you could. I do have some companies that 1503 01:15:21.520 --> 01:15:24.119 use it just for meeting notes. They there you go 1504 01:15:24.359 --> 01:15:27.039 like Otter record all of their meetings and then Otter 1505 01:15:27.159 --> 01:15:29.800 kind of gives them, like, you know, the different summaries 1506 01:15:29.840 --> 01:15:32.199 and images and things like that. It's pretty cool. And 1507 01:15:32.239 --> 01:15:34.159 then you can feed that into the LM and have 1508 01:15:34.239 --> 01:15:36.960 sort of like a just a history of meetings, so 1509 01:15:37.000 --> 01:15:39.279 then you don't have this, didn't we have a meeting 1510 01:15:39.319 --> 01:15:42.159 about this? Didn't somebody make a database like wasn't wasn't 1511 01:15:42.159 --> 01:15:44.119 there a thing? Wasn't there a person we can talk 1512 01:15:44.159 --> 01:15:46.439 to here? You could just go and query it and 1513 01:15:46.479 --> 01:15:49.199 then and then it will tell you. Sometimes it gives 1514 01:15:49.199 --> 01:15:51.079 you the answer you want, and sometimes it's like, no, 1515 01:15:51.199 --> 01:15:54.359 that conversation never happened. You're hallucinating now, but you know, 1516 01:15:54.439 --> 01:15:58.039 like it's it's either one, it's one or the other. Well, 1517 01:15:58.079 --> 01:15:58.439 there's a. 1518 01:15:58.359 --> 01:16:03.600 Big overlap between bioh hackers and software engineers as well, 1519 01:16:03.880 --> 01:16:06.479 so that they may find that interesting. 1520 01:16:07.680 --> 01:16:11.000 Yeah, they could put all the literature and data in 1521 01:16:11.039 --> 01:16:15.560 there around biohacking that I'm not I'm not totally familiar with, 1522 01:16:15.720 --> 01:16:17.680 although I am very much looking forward to having like 1523 01:16:17.720 --> 01:16:19.960 bionic limbs. That would be great, Like that would that 1524 01:16:20.000 --> 01:16:20.399 would just be. 1525 01:16:20.439 --> 01:16:23.680 Amazing for me, because because you want you want it 1526 01:16:23.800 --> 01:16:27.039 that you don't have to think about moving your limbs anymore. 1527 01:16:27.079 --> 01:16:29.239 You want something else to do it for you, right, No. 1528 01:16:29.319 --> 01:16:31.159 I just want limbs that work at this point, Like 1529 01:16:31.199 --> 01:16:33.199 that would be nice that's that's like just on a 1530 01:16:33.239 --> 01:16:36.239 mechanical level, like that's what I need. And then you know, 1531 01:16:36.279 --> 01:16:37.880 and then on that note, we're kind of talking about 1532 01:16:37.920 --> 01:16:40.359 like philosophy of AI and so on, you know, and 1533 01:16:40.359 --> 01:16:42.560 we can kind of argue about the tools, but from 1534 01:16:42.560 --> 01:16:45.960 an accessibility viewpoint, AI is really great and doing some 1535 01:16:46.000 --> 01:16:48.319 really great things. You know, like I have some issues 1536 01:16:48.359 --> 01:16:52.079 with typing as I age out of this career field. 1537 01:16:53.079 --> 01:16:54.880 You know, I have some like low vision people in 1538 01:16:54.920 --> 01:16:57.560 the family that AI is very helpful for them being 1539 01:16:57.600 --> 01:16:59.720 able to dictate, being able. You know, there's like there 1540 01:16:59.800 --> 01:17:01.840 is of a lot of cool accessibility things that can 1541 01:17:01.880 --> 01:17:03.880 be done with AI, and I do always kind of 1542 01:17:03.920 --> 01:17:05.239 like to give a little bit of a shout out 1543 01:17:05.239 --> 01:17:07.920 to that because I do think it's like all of 1544 01:17:07.960 --> 01:17:10.279 that is pretty great. You know, Like I have somebody 1545 01:17:10.319 --> 01:17:14.239 who's low vision who can now listen to audiobooks and 1546 01:17:14.319 --> 01:17:17.239 you know, I'm basically like kind of still go through 1547 01:17:17.279 --> 01:17:20.239 the Internet just with voice, and I think that's pretty cool. 1548 01:17:20.479 --> 01:17:22.159 So I don't know, that's it. 1549 01:17:22.239 --> 01:17:25.800 That's my picks, alrighty. 1550 01:17:25.840 --> 01:17:31.720 Then, so for my pick this week, I primed it 1551 01:17:31.760 --> 01:17:35.119 at the beginning. It's this Microsoft backed research paper that 1552 01:17:35.239 --> 01:17:38.359 came out of Carnegie mellon the impact of Generative AI 1553 01:17:38.479 --> 01:17:42.960 on Critical thinking, and I think it's just absolutely fantastic 1554 01:17:43.000 --> 01:17:48.720 paper about the correlations between utilizing AI tools and developing 1555 01:17:48.760 --> 01:17:52.359 critical thinking processes and expanding in usage of that sort 1556 01:17:52.399 --> 01:17:55.960 of brain muscle. And I think some people have misinterpreted 1557 01:17:56.000 --> 01:17:59.119 the paper as Microsoft paper on AI is making us stupid, 1558 01:17:59.680 --> 01:18:02.039 But I think the one thing that really does come 1559 01:18:02.079 --> 01:18:07.279 out of it is that if you have low confidence 1560 01:18:07.439 --> 01:18:10.680 in an LM doing the right thing, you will be 1561 01:18:10.760 --> 01:18:13.600 able to get much better answers out than if you 1562 01:18:13.640 --> 01:18:16.159 have high confidence in the current tools that we have, 1563 01:18:16.279 --> 01:18:21.199 because the current tools are transformer networks that hallucinate, and 1564 01:18:21.359 --> 01:18:24.000 if you just assume that it gives you the right answer, 1565 01:18:24.039 --> 01:18:26.760 like your calculator, you are going to stop developing the 1566 01:18:26.800 --> 01:18:29.359 muscle of challenging where you got the information from and 1567 01:18:29.399 --> 01:18:33.000 trying to understand it. I will say that this leads 1568 01:18:33.039 --> 01:18:35.760 me to a great interview question. I know that interviewing 1569 01:18:36.359 --> 01:18:39.800 candidates today can be challenging because they may be using 1570 01:18:39.880 --> 01:18:43.399 lms to answer your questions, and for me, I think 1571 01:18:43.399 --> 01:18:46.239 that naturally you can just ask them, hey, are you 1572 01:18:46.840 --> 01:18:49.479 like how much confidence do you have in the LMS 1573 01:18:49.520 --> 01:18:51.600 that you use to produce the right answers. The more 1574 01:18:51.640 --> 01:18:54.760 confident they are, the more likely you know they're not 1575 01:18:54.920 --> 01:18:57.800 using critical thinking to challenge what comes out of them 1576 01:18:57.840 --> 01:19:01.039 and could be a useful litmus test for what sort 1577 01:19:01.079 --> 01:19:03.600 of person you're hiring into your organization. 1578 01:19:06.079 --> 01:19:09.119 Right hunh, And so by are you phrasing the question 1579 01:19:09.359 --> 01:19:14.640 that way? Just presuming that they are using AI to 1580 01:19:14.720 --> 01:19:18.000 make them more comfortable with admitting that they are trying 1581 01:19:18.000 --> 01:19:18.399 to hide it? 1582 01:19:19.560 --> 01:19:23.880 Well, I think realistically part of our interviews now should 1583 01:19:23.960 --> 01:19:28.520 be dedicated to solving problems that don't rely on using LMS, 1584 01:19:29.359 --> 01:19:33.479 or problems that can use LLMS to be solved better, 1585 01:19:33.600 --> 01:19:36.600 and then asking them to use lms and which LMS 1586 01:19:36.600 --> 01:19:38.640 they're utilizing to solve the problem and how they're going 1587 01:19:38.680 --> 01:19:42.920 about it, because I think where you know you're trying 1588 01:19:42.960 --> 01:19:46.239 to hide this perspective from yourself, you're lying to yourself 1589 01:19:46.319 --> 01:19:49.840 if you believe that they you don't want to pull 1590 01:19:49.880 --> 01:19:53.119 these tools into your company to utilize in some fashion 1591 01:19:53.520 --> 01:19:57.159 and that people aren't utilizing them irrelevant if you give 1592 01:19:57.199 --> 01:20:00.800 them a take home assignment for your company that takes 1593 01:20:00.800 --> 01:20:02.880 four hours or eight hours, some of them are going 1594 01:20:02.920 --> 01:20:06.600 to utilize tools, And I don't think it says a 1595 01:20:06.600 --> 01:20:09.359 lot on the type of person based on whether they 1596 01:20:09.399 --> 01:20:11.960 utilize the tools, but it does say something about them 1597 01:20:12.000 --> 01:20:14.479 about how they're utilizing them or what their expectations are 1598 01:20:14.479 --> 01:20:15.920 on how they utilize those tools. 1599 01:20:16.039 --> 01:20:17.520 Cool, all right, Zach? What'd you bring for? 1600 01:20:17.600 --> 01:20:24.239 Pick? I have a tool that I like. Why not? 1601 01:20:25.119 --> 01:20:31.119 So it's a tool called Granola, and it's a it's 1602 01:20:31.119 --> 01:20:31.760 a note taker. 1603 01:20:31.920 --> 01:20:34.279 It's a meeting note taker, you say, I. 1604 01:20:34.600 --> 01:20:37.520 But the thing that I like about it compared to 1605 01:20:37.560 --> 01:20:40.279 all the other ones that I've tried using, is that 1606 01:20:41.239 --> 01:20:44.880 you don't end up with like a little like black 1607 01:20:44.960 --> 01:20:49.079 box in your zoom for the note taker. The note 1608 01:20:49.079 --> 01:20:53.199 taker works just off of your computer audio. Oh so 1609 01:20:54.079 --> 01:20:56.159 there's no like this is weird? 1610 01:20:56.239 --> 01:20:58.880 Who is this? Like Zach's note taker thing? Joining the meeting? 1611 01:21:00.239 --> 01:21:03.800 And it it not? Is it takes notes. It doesn't 1612 01:21:04.000 --> 01:21:06.600 like the default way that it takes notes isn't by transcription. 1613 01:21:06.880 --> 01:21:07.560 It's by. 1614 01:21:08.960 --> 01:21:12.920 Like semantically summarizing and giving you the key points. 1615 01:21:12.640 --> 01:21:13.640 Of what happened in the meaning. 1616 01:21:13.960 --> 01:21:15.840 So I don't like taking mening notes. So this is 1617 01:21:15.840 --> 01:21:19.079 a cool thing. It's called pole. That's one thing. A 1618 01:21:19.159 --> 01:21:24.199 second thing I'm reading a book. It's pretty nerdy. I 1619 01:21:24.199 --> 01:21:25.199 don't know why I'm reading it. 1620 01:21:25.199 --> 01:21:27.840 It's called A it's like a travel Guys in the 1621 01:21:27.840 --> 01:21:31.439 Middle Ages, and it's all it's like a it's a 1622 01:21:31.479 --> 01:21:36.359 history book, and it's all about like from like you know, 1623 01:21:36.439 --> 01:21:39.800 the year like eleven hundred to fifteen hundred, how did 1624 01:21:39.800 --> 01:21:42.399 people travel, Like what was it like for them to 1625 01:21:42.439 --> 01:21:43.079 take a vacation. 1626 01:21:43.119 --> 01:21:44.319 They weren't really taking vacations. 1627 01:21:44.319 --> 01:21:47.359 They were like primarily going on pilgrimages or at least 1628 01:21:47.399 --> 01:21:50.640 that's like what the written record survives. 1629 01:21:50.680 --> 01:21:54.079 And it takes you all over Europe. 1630 01:21:53.920 --> 01:21:57.239 The Middle East and like the Near East, and like 1631 01:21:57.640 --> 01:22:00.560 I'm not through it yet, so I don't totally know where. 1632 01:22:00.600 --> 01:22:04.119 But to me, it's what I like about it from a. 1633 01:22:04.119 --> 01:22:07.680 History perspective is that it's just about like it's about 1634 01:22:07.720 --> 01:22:11.640 a like relatable experience, not about like a series of 1635 01:22:11.760 --> 01:22:12.640 historical events. 1636 01:22:12.640 --> 01:22:14.079 It's not about historical leaders. 1637 01:22:14.079 --> 01:22:16.399 It's about, like, say, you having to be living in 1638 01:22:16.439 --> 01:22:18.520 the year thirteen hundred, what the heck were you doing? 1639 01:22:19.039 --> 01:22:23.079 How did you pack? How did you travel? Where did 1640 01:22:23.119 --> 01:22:25.760 you stay? Like what were the inns? Like? What were 1641 01:22:25.760 --> 01:22:29.119 you trying to go? Sight see? At I don't know 1642 01:22:29.119 --> 01:22:30.840 why I like it so much, but it's it's like 1643 01:22:31.399 --> 01:22:32.079 I really like it. 1644 01:22:32.079 --> 01:22:35.199 It's like a puts me in a very different mindset 1645 01:22:35.279 --> 01:22:37.920 from like how we're living today, So. 1646 01:22:38.119 --> 01:22:44.159 That's super cool. It's like National Lampoon's Middle Ages vacation. 1647 01:22:44.680 --> 01:22:47.359 Yeah, except I guess it didn't seem like very funny 1648 01:22:47.359 --> 01:22:48.159 to be traveling then. 1649 01:22:48.279 --> 01:22:51.119 It was a lot of like very serious. 1650 01:22:51.199 --> 01:22:54.199 You got to get to this religious site, like like 1651 01:22:54.880 --> 01:22:57.720 you got to see these relics, like people were really 1652 01:22:57.760 --> 01:23:02.000 wanting to see a bunch of you know, historic felts 1653 01:23:02.079 --> 01:23:05.680 or at least that's what the written record, uh survives, 1654 01:23:05.720 --> 01:23:06.920 and that's where the history comes from. 1655 01:23:06.960 --> 01:23:07.880 So that's pretty cool. 1656 01:23:08.720 --> 01:23:11.760 I used to really like all those, like the the 1657 01:23:11.840 --> 01:23:14.399 diary type books, like their fiction, but they're sort of 1658 01:23:14.399 --> 01:23:16.600 written as diaries of like the kids that would do 1659 01:23:16.640 --> 01:23:19.560 the Oregon Trail and travel across the United States, and 1660 01:23:19.560 --> 01:23:21.640 and they're they're from like other places as well too, 1661 01:23:21.680 --> 01:23:25.000 So you have people coming to Plymouth Rock and doing 1662 01:23:25.000 --> 01:23:28.560 the Oregon Trail and just the sort of Yeah, in general, 1663 01:23:28.600 --> 01:23:31.079 people go in different places, like across history. It used 1664 01:23:31.119 --> 01:23:32.680 to be a lot harder. You used to have to 1665 01:23:32.720 --> 01:23:35.319 worry about more things than like if the gas station 1666 01:23:35.520 --> 01:23:38.399 have your preferred chicken tenders or like whatever you know. 1667 01:23:39.920 --> 01:23:42.399 Yeah, there's so many questions, Jill Anne. 1668 01:23:47.960 --> 01:23:50.439 Awesome, Zach, thank you for joining us. This has been 1669 01:23:50.479 --> 01:23:52.600 a super entertaining episode. 1670 01:23:52.920 --> 01:23:53.840 Yeah, this has been fun. 1671 01:23:54.359 --> 01:23:55.359 Yeah that was great. 1672 01:23:55.439 --> 01:24:00.000 I was super interesting conversation and like, uh it was Yeah, 1673 01:24:00.000 --> 01:24:00.319 that's fine. 1674 01:24:00.399 --> 01:24:01.920 Really appreciate you all having me on here. 1675 01:24:02.439 --> 01:24:06.640 For sure. I'm gonna challenge Jillian to go download Warp 1676 01:24:06.720 --> 01:24:08.439 try it out, and then invite you back on the 1677 01:24:08.479 --> 01:24:10.680 show for a head to head rematch. 1678 01:24:11.000 --> 01:24:13.720 Voice like that's the one thing I really want. So 1679 01:24:14.159 --> 01:24:14.680 there we go. 1680 01:24:14.800 --> 01:24:17.960 It's a I don't know if it has it's at 1681 01:24:17.960 --> 01:24:20.399 warp dot dev is where you get it, and it's 1682 01:24:20.479 --> 01:24:26.399 now available Mac, Linux, and Windows, so all platforms right on. 1683 01:24:27.119 --> 01:24:32.439 Cool cool, Well, thanks everyone, Zach, thank you again, Warren, Jillian, 1684 01:24:32.520 --> 01:24:38.560 thank you, and we'll see everyone next week.