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<v Speaker 1>You're listening to an airwave media podcast.

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<v Speaker 2>Monster Talk is supported by listeners like you. Find out

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<v Speaker 2>monster talk dot org, forge slash support. Your contributions, large

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<v Speaker 2>or small, make a huge difference. Thanks.

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<v Speaker 3>You're right, it is okay?

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<v Speaker 4>Well, what do you say we can win for a

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<v Speaker 4>little food? Huh? Drink?

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<v Speaker 1>Rest the slaughtered lamb?

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<v Speaker 5>That's kind of strange.

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<v Speaker 1>Where's the lamb?

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<v Speaker 4>It's probably inside getting cold?

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<v Speaker 2>Come on, no, really, what kind of ad is that

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<v Speaker 2>for a pub?

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<v Speaker 1>I don't know, would rather than Hilton.

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<v Speaker 2>All right, but whatever happens, it's your fault, right, all right?

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<v Speaker 1>Cool on, we'll find out if any of Ity's killings

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<v Speaker 1>were on a full moon. Ok that's a lot of

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<v Speaker 1>Hollywood Maloney.

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<v Speaker 6>Ther classic were Wolf could change shape any time of

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<v Speaker 6>want's day and night when every takes a notion to him.

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<v Speaker 6>That's why I call him shape shift.

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<v Speaker 4>This one.

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<v Speaker 6>I got a dozen books on it.

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<v Speaker 1>What about killing it with silver bullets?

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<v Speaker 5>For sure?

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<v Speaker 6>Silver bullets are fire. It's the only way to get

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<v Speaker 6>rid of the day. Thinks they're worse than cockroaches. They

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<v Speaker 6>come back from the dead if you don't kill him right.

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<v Speaker 6>Plus they regenerate. You know what that is? Cut off

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<v Speaker 6>an arm, cut off a leg, stick, a knife and

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<v Speaker 6>a hot nothing. They may look dead, but bam, three

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<v Speaker 6>days later they're as good as new.

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<v Speaker 1>Do you believe in this?

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<v Speaker 4>What?

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<v Speaker 1>Am I an idiot?

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<v Speaker 6>I'm making a buckhead? You want books? I got books,

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<v Speaker 6>I got chicken blood, I got dog embryos, I got

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<v Speaker 6>black candles, I got wolf band. Look at this silver bullets.

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<v Speaker 6>Some joke added them thirty or six, never picked them up.

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<v Speaker 6>I think back America, American Express visa. You're gonna buy

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<v Speaker 6>it a what you have?

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<v Speaker 5>These two?

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<v Speaker 3>The wolf beon.

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<v Speaker 5>You think I don't know the difference between a wolf

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<v Speaker 5>and a man.

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<v Speaker 4>Bail It became a wolf and you killed him. Aware

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<v Speaker 4>a wolf can't be killed only with a silver bullet

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<v Speaker 4>or a silver knife or a stick with a sailor handle.

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<v Speaker 5>You're insane.

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<v Speaker 1>I tell you I killed a wolf.

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<v Speaker 5>I'm play in hard very wolf.

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<v Speaker 1>It's actually quite unlike anything we've ever seen before.

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<v Speaker 5>A giant very creature in Part eight, Part Matt in Luckness,

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<v Speaker 5>a twenty four mile long bottomless lake in the Highlands

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<v Speaker 5>of Scotland. It's a creature known as the Luckness, Monster.

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<v Speaker 1>Monstert.

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<v Speaker 2>Welcome to Monster Talk, the science show about monsters. I'm

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<v Speaker 2>Blake Smith and I'm Karen Stolsner.

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<v Speaker 1>So it's been a little while since we've discussed where Wolves,

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<v Speaker 1>and I know that they're one of Blake's favorite monsters,

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<v Speaker 1>so we thought it would be fun to revisit them

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<v Speaker 1>and to highlight the continuing controversies and confusion about where

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<v Speaker 1>Wolf Law the Beast of Javadens, and perhaps even a

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<v Speaker 1>science Fair project for someone to try. So welcome to

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<v Speaker 1>the show, Blake.

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<v Speaker 2>Hey, thanks for having me.

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<v Speaker 1>It's been a while.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I'm excited to be back.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, this is a really fun topic, and I don't

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<v Speaker 1>think we've talked about where Wolves for a while, have.

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<v Speaker 2>We It might have had. You know, if I had

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<v Speaker 2>to pick a favorite monster, where wolves have probably had

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<v Speaker 2>more influence on my life than any other monster, so

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<v Speaker 2>I'd have to go to this.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, that's a strange thing to say and to quantify

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<v Speaker 1>with monsters, well more influence on your life.

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<v Speaker 2>Well they have though, if you think about it. I mean,

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<v Speaker 2>the first of all, I've loved them from my entire life,

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<v Speaker 2>but also my current wife, who I expect to be

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<v Speaker 2>my only wife.

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<v Speaker 1>Unless she hears this.

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<v Speaker 2>Are very for I don't know if I should call

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<v Speaker 2>it a date. But when we think about, like when

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<v Speaker 2>we met, the first movie we watched together that she acknowledges.

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<v Speaker 2>Let me add that because I think we technically technically

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<v Speaker 2>we watched the Kentucky Fried movie first, But the movie

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<v Speaker 2>she wanted to watch was The American Werewolf in London,

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<v Speaker 2>and we watched that romantic It's pretty awesome. I really

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<v Speaker 2>liked that movie a lot. We watch it fairly frequently.

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<v Speaker 2>We just rewatched it with our kids and it really

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<v Speaker 2>does capture a lot of the lore. And I'm including

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<v Speaker 2>I'm including a little bit of the audio in the

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<v Speaker 2>intro to this episode.

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<v Speaker 1>So what do your kids think of the movie?

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<v Speaker 2>Oh, they liked it. Yeah, they liked it a lot,

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<v Speaker 2>although my son was really annoyed that they didn't. Well

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<v Speaker 2>spoiler alert so if you haven't seen the movie, maybe

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<v Speaker 2>you want to skip a couple of minutes. Yeah, but

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<v Speaker 2>my son was annoyed that the werewolf dies in the end,

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<v Speaker 2>And I'm like, what did you think was gonna happen?

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, turns into a monster that kills people? But

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<v Speaker 2>he was like, well, maybe they'd find a cure, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>and I.

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<v Speaker 1>Was like, well, he's a gentle soul.

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<v Speaker 2>He is, He's wonderful, but he loves this kind of movies.

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<v Speaker 2>I think he liked everything up to the point where

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<v Speaker 2>they killed the werewolf and he was a little annoyed

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<v Speaker 2>by that.

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<v Speaker 1>So fair enough. So when we talk about were wolves,

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<v Speaker 1>what are we going to be talking about today exactly?

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<v Speaker 1>Because there are lots of lots of different law, lots

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<v Speaker 1>of different claims and beliefs.

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<v Speaker 2>There are it's a monster again. I mean, this is selfish,

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<v Speaker 2>but I really like the monster. But there are factors

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<v Speaker 2>around some of the coverage we've done before that keep

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<v Speaker 2>coming up that are sort of the rubber ducks I

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<v Speaker 2>think is the one of the metaphors people use for

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<v Speaker 2>you try to sink them and they keep coming back. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>these unsinkable rubber ducks. And one of them has to

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<v Speaker 2>do with the allegation that the Beasts of Chevadon was

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<v Speaker 2>actually hyena. I'd like to talk about that a little bit,

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<v Speaker 2>but I'd also like to talk about I thought we

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<v Speaker 2>should also talk about the origin of were wolves, the

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<v Speaker 2>effect of the full moon. I know a lot of

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<v Speaker 2>my research recently was about silver bullets, in the case

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<v Speaker 2>of Chief Hodon. But I thought maybe we could talk

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<v Speaker 2>about the full moon in association with were wolves and

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<v Speaker 2>where some of the lore comes from, because I've been

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<v Speaker 2>doing a lot of research and I got really focused

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<v Speaker 2>on this silver bullet thing, and I still.

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<v Speaker 1>Been working on that for a while.

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<v Speaker 2>I think, I know you, yeah, I really I'm very

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<v Speaker 2>interested in the magical qualities of silver, and I think

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<v Speaker 2>there is some interesting things to discuss there. So let's

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<v Speaker 2>talk about some of this stuff.

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<v Speaker 1>Sounds good. So I guess to begin with, what's the

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<v Speaker 1>difference between a werewolf or the concept of a werewolf

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<v Speaker 1>today and a werewolf in the early twentieth century and

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<v Speaker 1>say a were wolf maybe four to five hundred years

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<v Speaker 1>ago in Europe.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it's I find this really interesting how the story

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<v Speaker 2>of where wolves have changed. So I guess one of

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<v Speaker 2>the first werewolf stories people talk about, you know, people

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<v Speaker 2>turning from a human into a wolf, has to do

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<v Speaker 2>with a legend of I'm not sure if it's Lichen

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<v Speaker 2>or Licen. I'm not sure how it was actually, Yeah, so,

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<v Speaker 2>but this was a character and this was kind of

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<v Speaker 2>a recurring motif in Greek legends and folklore, mythology, people

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<v Speaker 2>would somehow get this opportunity to have a dinner party

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<v Speaker 2>with the gods, and they were like, oh, I'm having

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<v Speaker 2>a dinner with the gods. And I blame this on

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<v Speaker 2>Martha Stewart for not being alive yet. But they're trying

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<v Speaker 2>to plan their dinner and they're like, what should I

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<v Speaker 2>serve to the gods? You know, you know what would

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<v Speaker 2>be great? You know what the gods would be like, like,

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<v Speaker 2>it's cool because it's an interesting dish and at the

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<v Speaker 2>same time inviting us a test for the gods to

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<v Speaker 2>see how how sensitive their palates are. And that would

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<v Speaker 2>be if I killed my own child and served it

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<v Speaker 2>to the gods as a main course.

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<v Speaker 1>How about that?

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah? Yeah, So these these people, more than one myth

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<v Speaker 2>revolves around this idea. They they bring the gods in,

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<v Speaker 2>they have a wonderful dinner, and the gods eat the

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<v Speaker 2>meat and they're like, whoa dude, is this your son?

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<v Speaker 2>You know, I'm like, yeah, but what do you think

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<v Speaker 2>of the vegeta spice? Right? Am? I? Right? So, but

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<v Speaker 2>they never care about the vegeta spicce. They get all

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<v Speaker 2>hung up over the fact that you killed your kid

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<v Speaker 2>to serve to the gods. They get really mad about that, so.

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<v Speaker 1>That was some kind of proof of deity as well.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it's you know, because we did an episode about

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<v Speaker 2>eating flesh. You remember that that was they called it

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<v Speaker 2>long Long Pig. It's been a long time, but we

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<v Speaker 2>did an episode about ghouls and I.

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<v Speaker 1>Remember doing an episode on that cannibalism.

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<v Speaker 2>With We talked to Carol Travis Heinkoff, who wrote A

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<v Speaker 2>Dinner with Cannibals, the Complete History of Mankind's Oldest Taboo,

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<v Speaker 2>and they called it long pig. Apparently we taste like pork.

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<v Speaker 1>But yeah, well I think it's still done in some cultures.

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<v Speaker 1>I think in New Guinea. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's curry.

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<v Speaker 2>I think her curry cree is the disease. There's there's

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<v Speaker 2>a there's a prion disease, which is where you get

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<v Speaker 2>a recurring or repeating uh protein and it can cause

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<v Speaker 2>like uh mad cow disease. But it's a human born disease.

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<v Speaker 2>And that's the main reason I think that. Well, there's

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<v Speaker 2>obviously a social taboo.

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<v Speaker 1>Didn't salvad Or Dally want to eat his wife after

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<v Speaker 1>she died? Reading that somewhere?

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<v Speaker 2>I don't know, but I'll tell you one thing about

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<v Speaker 2>salvad Or Dolly. There's a fantastic museum of salvad Or

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<v Speaker 2>Dally in Saint Petersburg, Florida.

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<v Speaker 1>And oh, I love to say that.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh my gosh, it's amazing. First of all, the painties

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<v Speaker 2>in general are amazing, but I had no idea how

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<v Speaker 2>big they are. I mean, most of the stuff he

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<v Speaker 2>painted is probably ten by twelve I mean, and that's feet.

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<v Speaker 1>You've never been able to see anything in personal.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh yeah, if you get a chance to go to

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<v Speaker 2>Saint Petersburg, you should definitely go to the museum. It's beautiful.

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<v Speaker 2>And then if you're a naturalist, go outside the museum

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<v Speaker 2>and look out into the bay and it's just all

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<v Speaker 2>these beautiful melting clocks. I was gonna say, there's that.

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<v Speaker 2>There's melting clocks on the inside, and then horseshoe crabs

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<v Speaker 2>on the outside. The bays is full of horseshoe crabs

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<v Speaker 2>and it's really cool. But yeah, yeah, Dolly's amazing. The

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<v Speaker 2>whole surrealist movement is really impressive. But yeah, why are

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<v Speaker 2>we talking about Dolly because I've lost my track.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah we've gone off track a little bit. But yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>just talking about the differences between where wolves across time

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<v Speaker 1>and space.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, they do tend to change over time. Oh so

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<v Speaker 2>the point was, Yeah, back in the Origin story, you

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<v Speaker 2>start out with the gods cursing people and turning them

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<v Speaker 2>into wolves, which is a transformation. I think, so as

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<v Speaker 2>a punishment, being turned into a wolf could be problematic.

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<v Speaker 2>There's legends where people are turned into a wolf for

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<v Speaker 2>a few days, there's legends where people are turned into

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<v Speaker 2>wolves for a year, and there's legends where in the

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<v Speaker 2>Satiric Con, which is an interesting play, there's a story

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<v Speaker 2>in the Satiric Con told it like at a dinner party,

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<v Speaker 2>and in that story, there's a character who's a soldier

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<v Speaker 2>who's going with another guy. They're traveling across the country.

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<v Speaker 2>They stop at a graveyard. The moon is full, and

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<v Speaker 2>this character goes and he takes off all his clothes.

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<v Speaker 2>He peas in a circle around the clothes, turns into

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<v Speaker 2>a wolf, and then goes off in a tax livestock

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<v Speaker 2>and later on he's wounded. It's one of those plastic

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<v Speaker 2>werewolf stories where he's wounded, he's back in human form,

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<v Speaker 2>and then people realize that the wound is identical to

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<v Speaker 2>the one that was performed to the animal. That is

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<v Speaker 2>a recurring theme. What's interesting, though, is that when he

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<v Speaker 2>peas around his clothes, his clothes turned into rocks, And

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<v Speaker 2>I guess the idea is that when he's done, he

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<v Speaker 2>can turn them back from rocks back into clothes again

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<v Speaker 2>and put them on and then pursue the rest of

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<v Speaker 2>his life. It's really unclear why he turns into a wolf.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, there's there's no explanation, like it's just a

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<v Speaker 2>story told at a dinner party. But when Money Sommers

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<v Speaker 2>Montague Sommers writes his story on the werewolfs in the

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<v Speaker 2>nineteen thirties, he mentions that story. He specifically mentions the

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<v Speaker 2>satirra con.

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<v Speaker 1>So it's a recurring theme, isn't it. With the clothing

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<v Speaker 1>as well? That in some stories if the wolf or

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<v Speaker 1>that the werewolf doesn't have the clothing to be able

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<v Speaker 1>to transform, that he can't transport back into us exactly.

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<v Speaker 2>Some of the stories involve them hiding their clothes. In

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<v Speaker 2>the original The wolf Man, it seems like his clothes

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<v Speaker 2>are well, I guess not him, but the in the

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<v Speaker 2>beginning of the story, Uh, you know, the term gypsy

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<v Speaker 2>has changed, like like it's become sort of a slur,

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<v Speaker 2>and I don't mean it as a slur. Yes, romany

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<v Speaker 2>right in the movie, they're referred to as gypsies. But

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<v Speaker 2>there's a character, Bayla, who's actually played by Baylor Legosi,

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<v Speaker 2>I believe, and by a dog when he's turned into

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<v Speaker 2>wolf form, but uh, he he has changed and when

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<v Speaker 2>he's killed Lawrence Talbot, Larry Talbot beats him to death

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<v Speaker 2>with a silver headed cane and he changes back into human,

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<v Speaker 2>but he's wearing clothes. And when when Lawrence changes, he

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<v Speaker 2>changes into a wolf man, he's like, not, it's not

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<v Speaker 2>a full transformation. There's no explanation for why that's the case.

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<v Speaker 2>But we'll talk about that later. But again, yeah, we'll

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<v Speaker 2>get we'll get the silver reference right out of that movie.

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<v Speaker 2>We'll talk about that. But but he is he is

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<v Speaker 2>cursed in this Obviously this is fictional, but Kurt's the

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<v Speaker 2>oddmach the guy that wrote it said he was, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>trying to be as historically accurate as possible. But somewhere

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<v Speaker 2>it's become a curse. But yet in between, in the

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<v Speaker 2>Middle Ages, there was a time when if you wanted

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<v Speaker 2>to be a were wolf, you had to have a

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<v Speaker 2>deal with the devil. So you would you would get

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<v Speaker 2>a witch's potion and you would smear yourself with salv

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<v Speaker 2>you would put on a belt made out of wolf skin,

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<v Speaker 2>and then you would become a werewolf. And it was

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<v Speaker 2>a deliberate act of magical evil. It would right, right.

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<v Speaker 2>So that's quite a change. So it goes from being

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<v Speaker 2>a curse of the gods to being a deliberate act.

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<v Speaker 2>And then with a few exceptions, there are there's some

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<v Speaker 2>French folklore in the Middle Ages where like the children

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<v Speaker 2>of vicars, like the children of pastors or church leaders

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<v Speaker 2>would sometimes become were wolves, and so that existed in

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<v Speaker 2>the seventeen and eighteen hundreds, that sort of legend. But

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<v Speaker 2>in general it wasn't a curse for much of European history.

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<v Speaker 2>It was an act where you wanted to become a

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<v Speaker 2>were wolf. You wanted to have the power of the wolf,

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<v Speaker 2>so you would make it packed, you'd make a postion,

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<v Speaker 2>you do all these things, and you'd become a wolf.

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<v Speaker 2>We talked before on an episode about Peter Stump and

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<v Speaker 2>that famous story about him being a convicted wolf, and

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<v Speaker 2>that exactly that sounds like a serial killer story, although

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<v Speaker 2>because of the religious elements. It's possible that he wasn't

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<v Speaker 2>really a killer. It was sort of a religious persecution.

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<v Speaker 2>I really don't know, but I do know that his

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<v Speaker 2>finish was spectacularly horrible.

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<v Speaker 1>Horrible, and that was a form of torture. I mean

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<v Speaker 1>that was done to many people's terrible, but it wasn't

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<v Speaker 1>a on that time in Europe? Did you have the

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<v Speaker 1>equivalent of the Witch Praze and the witch Trials for

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<v Speaker 1>were wolves as well? Yeah, yeah, I think in Spain

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<v Speaker 1>and soon.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, absolutely, yeah, no, the Inquisition and the witch trials,

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<v Speaker 2>and then you know, people have written a lot about

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<v Speaker 2>the motivations for the witch trials and the idea that

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<v Speaker 2>they were.

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<v Speaker 1>We've discussed them before, yeah, yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, we have, and you can go back to our

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<v Speaker 2>show notes.

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<v Speaker 1>Debrah Hyde's right, that was kind of recent.

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<v Speaker 2>Austairly recent, right, But I'll mention, no, I.

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<v Speaker 1>Think that was I think that was Halloween last years,

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<v Speaker 1>almost a year ago.

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<v Speaker 2>Tempt fugit right. I mean, time does fly, absolutely, But

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<v Speaker 2>I will mention that as the legends evolved, by the

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<v Speaker 2>time we get up to nineteen forty one to the

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<v Speaker 2>Wolfman movie, you've got the where Wolf turned into effectively

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<v Speaker 2>doctor Jackel and mister High. Right. So, in fact, Stephen

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<v Speaker 2>King in his book Dance Macabb he talks about the

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<v Speaker 2>types of monsters there are, and he talks about the vampire,

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<v Speaker 2>the Frankenstein Monster, and then Doctor Jekyl and mister Hyde.

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<v Speaker 2>And so he says, by the time you get to

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<v Speaker 2>the wolf Man, you've basically turned this monster into a

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<v Speaker 2>Doctor jekylin Mister Hyde story, wherein you have a character

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<v Speaker 2>who is, on the one hand, when he's one way,

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<v Speaker 2>he wants to be good, he tries to behave well

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<v Speaker 2>and then eventually he turns into an evil force against

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<v Speaker 2>his will, but you're you're empathetic for him, like you

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<v Speaker 2>kind of want him to overcome this in some way.

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<v Speaker 2>I think that's fairly out of the parallels. Yeah.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, so your research into this is included trying to

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<v Speaker 1>figure out when the Beast of Jividin got or became

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<v Speaker 1>associated with a silver bullet. And so you've mentioned the

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<v Speaker 1>story a couple of times, but it's probably worth summarizing again.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah. So I'll put a link in the show notes

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<v Speaker 2>to our episodes previously covering this. But in France between

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<v Speaker 2>seventeen sixty four and seventeen sixty seven, there was a

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<v Speaker 2>period of time when France's countryside in the Sevadon region

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<v Speaker 2>was being terrorized by attacks. So when I first started

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<v Speaker 2>looking into this, one of the questions I had was

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<v Speaker 2>is this even real? Like, is there any evidence this

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<v Speaker 2>really happened? And it turns out that yes, it absolutely

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<v Speaker 2>really happened. And we talked with the author of a

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<v Speaker 2>book on the beast named Jay Smith, and we'll put

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<v Speaker 2>a link to his book in the show notes, but

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<v Speaker 2>he talked about how this was not the first case.

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<v Speaker 2>So what happened was this kind of pattern of wolves

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<v Speaker 2>attacking the citizenry. It happened numerous times before. But what

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<v Speaker 2>had changed is that, first of all, the scale was

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<v Speaker 2>a little bit bigger because of a lot of economic

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<v Speaker 2>and political conditions in the country at the time. And

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<v Speaker 2>the second thing that had changed was the broadsheet newspaper

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<v Speaker 2>had been developed, and so now there was this tabloid

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<v Speaker 2>newspaper type story that was popularizing these rural, provincial tales

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<v Speaker 2>of beast attacks, and they were highlighting all these amazing,

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<v Speaker 2>sort of supernatural or weird qualities about the attacks in

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<v Speaker 2>the same way that any kind of rumor could be

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<v Speaker 2>propagated today in social media. So in a very real sense,

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<v Speaker 2>this sort of parallels the way stories take off today.

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<v Speaker 2>It was the early case of like an advance in

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<v Speaker 2>the way stories could be shared through this sort of

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<v Speaker 2>quick printing of newspapers, and the newspapers themselves were in

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<v Speaker 2>competition trying to increase sales by having salacious and interesting.

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<v Speaker 1>Stories like tabloids today.

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<v Speaker 2>Like tabloids today exactly. And so what happens is now

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<v Speaker 2>it becomes an international story because these papers can be

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<v Speaker 2>spread across the Europe, and you know, anybody who can

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<v Speaker 2>read French can read these stories. And ultimately, spoiler alert,

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<v Speaker 2>if you listen to our coverage or read Jay Smith's book,

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<v Speaker 2>you'll discover that there's really really good evidence that what

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<v Speaker 2>was happening was mundane wolf attacks being blown out of

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<v Speaker 2>proportion by media coverage.

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<v Speaker 1>But even still, you mentioned the scale of events and

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<v Speaker 1>whether it was I think some sources say that it

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<v Speaker 1>was up to about two hundred attacks.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, definitely more than a yeah, yeah, definitely more than

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<v Speaker 2>eighty people killed by wolves.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, whether whether it was on the higher end or

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<v Speaker 1>the lower end, that's just a staggering amount of people

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<v Speaker 1>to die in that way it is.

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<v Speaker 2>And I don't want to dismiss the value of life

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<v Speaker 2>at the time, but it seemed like, uh, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>even at the time, but that it's like, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>it's a shame, but other your peasants, you know, so

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<v Speaker 2>like even back then, well maybe it's especially back then,

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<v Speaker 2>but sadly still now, if you're poor, it's very easy

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<v Speaker 2>to turn into a news story of a momentary tragedy

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<v Speaker 2>and it's almost like a well, thank god, I'm not poor, right,

388
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<v Speaker 2>you know, I mean, it's yeah, it really is. But

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<v Speaker 2>the French government was called in to try to deal

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<v Speaker 2>with it. They sent military forces and then eventually they

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<v Speaker 2>sort of had to bring it to a close, and

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<v Speaker 2>so they're like it actually breaks out into about two chapters.

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<v Speaker 2>So basically part one is the military brings it to

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<v Speaker 2>a close when a guy named Antoine kills a wolf

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<v Speaker 2>that they decide was the beast. And then later on

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<v Speaker 2>another frenchman kills a different monster beast also just a wolf,

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<v Speaker 2>but a big one. His name is Jean Chastell, and

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<v Speaker 2>so it's like two competing stories about who killed the beast.

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<v Speaker 2>But if you really look past that, the evidences, it

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<v Speaker 2>was packs of wolves all over the region, and what

401
00:22:00.160 --> 00:22:08.240
<v Speaker 2>really stopped it was the sort of improvement in the

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<v Speaker 2>economic area and then improvement in the amount of food

403
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<v Speaker 2>that was available because the peasants and military were killing

404
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<v Speaker 2>wolves all over the place, which meant that the wolves

405
00:22:18.440 --> 00:22:21.480
<v Speaker 2>would have been able to have enough game to survive

406
00:22:21.519 --> 00:22:24.599
<v Speaker 2>because there have been smaller numbers, and so eventually you

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<v Speaker 2>would basically just beat the wolves to death until the

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<v Speaker 2>point that their population decreased so that they were able

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<v Speaker 2>to be sustained without killing humans.

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<v Speaker 1>So, and those are usual factors for things like a

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<v Speaker 1>decrease in superstition as well just economic improvements, Yeah, things

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<v Speaker 1>like insurance even but you.

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<v Speaker 2>Know, if you go back to those links, I'll put

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<v Speaker 2>this in the show notes as well. There's this weird

415
00:22:50.440 --> 00:22:54.559
<v Speaker 2>thing that happens within the story where it's got these

416
00:22:54.599 --> 00:22:57.160
<v Speaker 2>supernatural elements because the beast seems to be able to

417
00:22:57.440 --> 00:23:00.759
<v Speaker 2>shrug off bullet shots. The idea that someone missed is

418
00:23:01.599 --> 00:23:04.039
<v Speaker 2>is never really considered. I mean, we're talking about time

419
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<v Speaker 2>when like rifling in a barrel was still a big deal.

420
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<v Speaker 2>I mean, this is the seventeen sixties we're talking about.

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<v Speaker 2>From seventeen sixty four to seventeen sixty seven. This was

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<v Speaker 2>not the height of the efficacy of gun barrels, right, So.

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<v Speaker 1>People missing section as well.

424
00:23:24.559 --> 00:23:28.839
<v Speaker 2>I didn't miss. The beast just shrugged off my shot, right,

425
00:23:28.880 --> 00:23:29.319
<v Speaker 2>I mean.

426
00:23:29.279 --> 00:23:31.079
<v Speaker 1>You know, is that powerful and strong?

427
00:23:31.200 --> 00:23:34.279
<v Speaker 2>Right? It's amazing, right, So it's definitely the monster's problem,

428
00:23:34.319 --> 00:23:34.799
<v Speaker 2>not mine.

429
00:23:34.960 --> 00:23:35.160
<v Speaker 4>Right.

430
00:23:35.240 --> 00:23:39.039
<v Speaker 2>So, but this, this idea that there was a supernatural element,

431
00:23:39.160 --> 00:23:41.839
<v Speaker 2>or that a single beast was responsible for all the kills,

432
00:23:42.440 --> 00:23:46.559
<v Speaker 2>is still cherished in cryptozoology today. It's crazy. Well I

433
00:23:46.839 --> 00:23:49.519
<v Speaker 2>shouldn't say it's crazy, but it is outlandish to me

434
00:23:49.599 --> 00:23:54.559
<v Speaker 2>that people would consider this to be a potentially supernatural

435
00:23:54.720 --> 00:23:57.559
<v Speaker 2>or strange monster. Yet they do.

436
00:23:58.599 --> 00:24:01.880
<v Speaker 1>Yep. And there's another theory that has been around for

437
00:24:01.920 --> 00:24:04.200
<v Speaker 1>a while too, one that just keeps popping up again,

438
00:24:04.960 --> 00:24:08.400
<v Speaker 1>and that is that the beast was a hyaena. So

439
00:24:08.680 --> 00:24:11.279
<v Speaker 1>could a hyena have been involved in these attacks?

440
00:24:11.440 --> 00:24:16.799
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, so it's it's really interesting. Jay Smith again, I'll

441
00:24:16.799 --> 00:24:18.319
<v Speaker 2>put a link to this in the show notes as well,

442
00:24:18.400 --> 00:24:20.759
<v Speaker 2>though this article is behind a paywall, so I'm not

443
00:24:20.759 --> 00:24:23.119
<v Speaker 2>sure how easily it can be reached. But he wrote

444
00:24:23.160 --> 00:24:27.720
<v Speaker 2>an additional article called Dreadful Enemies, The Beast, the Hyaena

445
00:24:27.960 --> 00:24:32.240
<v Speaker 2>and the Natural History and the Enlightenment are in Natural

446
00:24:32.319 --> 00:24:35.119
<v Speaker 2>History and the Enlightenment, and it's a really interesting article.

447
00:24:35.160 --> 00:24:39.720
<v Speaker 2>It's about thirty pages long. But in that article he

448
00:24:39.799 --> 00:24:43.839
<v Speaker 2>explains that he gives some context to this hyena idea.

449
00:24:44.359 --> 00:24:47.519
<v Speaker 2>So like, if you're a modern person, you're reading this,

450
00:24:47.720 --> 00:24:50.839
<v Speaker 2>you're thinking, oh, was a hyena the beast of Jividal, Like,

451
00:24:50.920 --> 00:24:54.440
<v Speaker 2>look at the qualities of the monster, Like what what

452
00:24:54.480 --> 00:24:57.319
<v Speaker 2>would make you think hyena? And the number one thing was,

453
00:24:57.400 --> 00:24:59.519
<v Speaker 2>I guess in a lot of the victims there was

454
00:24:59.559 --> 00:25:03.480
<v Speaker 2>disheart ticulation of the skeleton, so as these people were killed,

455
00:25:04.119 --> 00:25:10.240
<v Speaker 2>their skeletons got disarticulated into pieces. And the hyena as

456
00:25:10.279 --> 00:25:13.720
<v Speaker 2>an animal has probably the strongest bite force of any

457
00:25:13.799 --> 00:25:17.079
<v Speaker 2>land mammal. It can bite into bones like they were

458
00:25:17.119 --> 00:25:21.920
<v Speaker 2>candy right and get right to the marrow. And I

459
00:25:21.920 --> 00:25:24.920
<v Speaker 2>think that's probably one of the reasons why people bring

460
00:25:24.960 --> 00:25:28.720
<v Speaker 2>the hyena into this is or at least I did

461
00:25:28.720 --> 00:25:31.279
<v Speaker 2>think that until I read this article. But what I

462
00:25:31.319 --> 00:25:37.119
<v Speaker 2>discovered by reading his article is that the hyena already

463
00:25:37.200 --> 00:25:46.200
<v Speaker 2>had an almost supernatural quality to it within Renaissance Enlightenment

464
00:25:47.599 --> 00:25:51.440
<v Speaker 2>biological thinkers like the naturalists of the time, and the

465
00:25:51.519 --> 00:25:54.920
<v Speaker 2>reason for that is there were all these really interesting

466
00:25:56.160 --> 00:26:00.960
<v Speaker 2>historical documents related to hyenas, and they almost had supernatural

467
00:26:01.079 --> 00:26:06.880
<v Speaker 2>qualities because Europeans who were really interested in sort of

468
00:26:07.920 --> 00:26:11.559
<v Speaker 2>quantifying and explaining things in naturalistic terms at the time,

469
00:26:13.240 --> 00:26:18.640
<v Speaker 2>we're looking into documents that were written hundreds or thousands

470
00:26:18.680 --> 00:26:22.200
<v Speaker 2>of years ago and had been reprinted things to the

471
00:26:22.240 --> 00:26:24.720
<v Speaker 2>Gutenberg press. And I guess I should take care of

472
00:26:24.720 --> 00:26:28.440
<v Speaker 2>a little side moment. So when we think about the Enlightenment,

473
00:26:29.559 --> 00:26:33.200
<v Speaker 2>in this period of so many interesting and important things

474
00:26:33.279 --> 00:26:36.000
<v Speaker 2>came out of it. Historically speaking, I mean, we're talking

475
00:26:36.039 --> 00:26:40.960
<v Speaker 2>about almost the verge of the birth of democracy. We're

476
00:26:41.000 --> 00:26:44.400
<v Speaker 2>talking about the birth of science as it's understood today.

477
00:26:45.119 --> 00:26:48.319
<v Speaker 1>At the same time, been away from religion to some extent.

478
00:26:48.240 --> 00:26:52.039
<v Speaker 2>Exactly, people are moving away from biblical literalism to deism,

479
00:26:52.400 --> 00:26:54.240
<v Speaker 2>where they like, I don't know if the Bible is

480
00:26:54.319 --> 00:26:57.680
<v Speaker 2>literally true, but you know a guiding force, you know

481
00:26:57.680 --> 00:27:01.079
<v Speaker 2>there's something out there. It wouldn't be until Darwin comes

482
00:27:01.079 --> 00:27:03.359
<v Speaker 2>along with his theory of natural selection. There's always this

483
00:27:03.440 --> 00:27:06.880
<v Speaker 2>question out there of like, well, if there is no God,

484
00:27:06.960 --> 00:27:09.359
<v Speaker 2>then how do you explain the complexity of nature? Right, So,

485
00:27:10.279 --> 00:27:13.640
<v Speaker 2>until that mechanism of natural selection came along. I think

486
00:27:14.480 --> 00:27:20.079
<v Speaker 2>this period of deism was completely justified. You've got to

487
00:27:20.119 --> 00:27:23.200
<v Speaker 2>explain the complexity of nature in some way, but they

488
00:27:23.200 --> 00:27:25.519
<v Speaker 2>didn't have a mechanism for that yet. But what they

489
00:27:25.559 --> 00:27:28.440
<v Speaker 2>did realize was that there were a lot of things

490
00:27:28.480 --> 00:27:32.000
<v Speaker 2>that were really complicated that seemed almost supernatural. And they

491
00:27:32.119 --> 00:27:35.720
<v Speaker 2>also had this thing that happened where you had the

492
00:27:35.759 --> 00:27:39.720
<v Speaker 2>Gutenberg Press come out and it starts off by Gutenberg

493
00:27:40.160 --> 00:27:45.359
<v Speaker 2>selling or helping promote or print indulgences for the church.

494
00:27:45.440 --> 00:27:49.440
<v Speaker 2>That's like the first big killer app for the printing

495
00:27:49.480 --> 00:27:55.440
<v Speaker 2>press is to basically help the church print indulgences, which

496
00:27:55.480 --> 00:27:57.720
<v Speaker 2>are written documents where you can pay money and be

497
00:27:57.839 --> 00:28:02.160
<v Speaker 2>forgiven for sins. Big deal, huge deal. But later on

498
00:28:02.279 --> 00:28:04.119
<v Speaker 2>people take the printing press and they're like, well, what

499
00:28:04.160 --> 00:28:06.960
<v Speaker 2>can we do with this? We can write books, but

500
00:28:07.039 --> 00:28:09.759
<v Speaker 2>what's the cheapest thing to do is to take these

501
00:28:10.279 --> 00:28:14.759
<v Speaker 2>ancient texts from Aristotle and Plato and all these people.

502
00:28:14.920 --> 00:28:18.519
<v Speaker 2>We've got these manuscripts. We could turn these into small volumes,

503
00:28:18.640 --> 00:28:20.559
<v Speaker 2>put them on the printing press, and this will be

504
00:28:20.680 --> 00:28:25.039
<v Speaker 2>you know, great successes as printing efforts. Right. So they're

505
00:28:25.039 --> 00:28:27.480
<v Speaker 2>printing these things in Greek, they're putting them in Latin,

506
00:28:28.519 --> 00:28:31.319
<v Speaker 2>they're printing them in German, they're printing them in different languages.

507
00:28:31.319 --> 00:28:34.759
<v Speaker 2>But they're basically taking old texts that have survived thanks

508
00:28:34.799 --> 00:28:37.680
<v Speaker 2>to the preservation of monks and various other people, and

509
00:28:37.799 --> 00:28:41.119
<v Speaker 2>they're taking this crewde knowledge and printing out in little

510
00:28:41.240 --> 00:28:44.200
<v Speaker 2>volumes that you can carry around in your saddlebags or whatever.

511
00:28:44.240 --> 00:28:48.799
<v Speaker 2>People are building libraries. People are sharing information. It's very

512
00:28:48.920 --> 00:28:52.880
<v Speaker 2>much like the Internet. Suddenly you have this huge spread

513
00:28:52.920 --> 00:28:56.200
<v Speaker 2>of information that was never available before. And if you

514
00:28:56.400 --> 00:29:01.599
<v Speaker 2>are a gentleman farmer or a and you have a

515
00:29:01.640 --> 00:29:05.480
<v Speaker 2>manor house, you got to have a library, right, so

516
00:29:06.559 --> 00:29:09.759
<v Speaker 2>you're building the library. Sorry, excuse me. You're building these

517
00:29:09.759 --> 00:29:16.440
<v Speaker 2>libraries and you're sharing stories about animals and far off

518
00:29:16.480 --> 00:29:20.359
<v Speaker 2>places where you don't have the money to go investigate yourself.

519
00:29:20.559 --> 00:29:24.519
<v Speaker 2>You're just reprinting something that was sent to you by

520
00:29:24.599 --> 00:29:27.319
<v Speaker 2>people who took scrolls and other information and turned them

521
00:29:27.359 --> 00:29:31.440
<v Speaker 2>into these early books. So this is where a lot

522
00:29:31.440 --> 00:29:33.480
<v Speaker 2>of this information comes from. You get all these old

523
00:29:33.759 --> 00:29:38.559
<v Speaker 2>stories about hyenas, and they themselves may be stories that

524
00:29:38.599 --> 00:29:44.039
<v Speaker 2>were told by sailors or whatever. So and I'll tell

525
00:29:44.039 --> 00:29:49.480
<v Speaker 2>you one more interesting thing is people believed Aristotle. Oh

526
00:29:49.480 --> 00:29:53.759
<v Speaker 2>my gosh. So back in the day people believed Aristotle

527
00:29:54.079 --> 00:29:56.279
<v Speaker 2>much the same way they believed in the Bible. Like

528
00:29:56.440 --> 00:30:00.000
<v Speaker 2>you might write a criticism about the Bible, but it's

529
00:30:00.119 --> 00:30:02.000
<v Speaker 2>going to be about, well, look at this text and

530
00:30:02.039 --> 00:30:04.599
<v Speaker 2>look at that text. Here's a possible explanation that will

531
00:30:04.640 --> 00:30:06.960
<v Speaker 2>sort of smooth things out. But you wouldn't say the

532
00:30:06.960 --> 00:30:10.359
<v Speaker 2>Bible is wrong, right, and you would similarly, you wouldn't

533
00:30:10.359 --> 00:30:13.000
<v Speaker 2>say the Aristotle was wrong. You just accepted it. You

534
00:30:14.079 --> 00:30:15.960
<v Speaker 2>might write commentary or a lot of things, but you

535
00:30:15.960 --> 00:30:21.200
<v Speaker 2>wouldn't write contradiction. And direct experimentation was a relatively new thing.

536
00:30:21.319 --> 00:30:26.680
<v Speaker 2>So ideas about the hyena included the idea that it

537
00:30:26.680 --> 00:30:30.880
<v Speaker 2>could implicate human speech, that it could bend backwards. Oh

538
00:30:30.920 --> 00:30:33.720
<v Speaker 2>excuse me, that it couldn't bend backwards. But although that

539
00:30:33.720 --> 00:30:37.519
<v Speaker 2>that legend got flipped around. That its eyes contain gems,

540
00:30:37.799 --> 00:30:40.839
<v Speaker 2>I guess the eye color of hyenas is quite spectacular.

541
00:30:43.119 --> 00:30:47.319
<v Speaker 2>Hyenas have strange genitalia too. The female hyena. The female

542
00:30:47.400 --> 00:30:51.200
<v Speaker 2>hyena has a pseudo penis, and there win are explicit

543
00:30:51.240 --> 00:30:55.240
<v Speaker 2>tag so instead of like a very obvious vagina, she

544
00:30:55.279 --> 00:30:58.279
<v Speaker 2>has something that sort of sticks out. It's a little peculiar.

545
00:30:58.359 --> 00:30:59.920
<v Speaker 2>I don't think I'll put a picture in the show,

546
00:31:00.240 --> 00:31:03.599
<v Speaker 2>but if you want to look at it, probably, but

547
00:31:04.039 --> 00:31:08.240
<v Speaker 2>people thought strange things like hyenas might change gender, or

548
00:31:08.279 --> 00:31:11.720
<v Speaker 2>they were all males because of this strange pseudo penis,

549
00:31:11.720 --> 00:31:14.440
<v Speaker 2>and like when she has her first pups, I don't

550
00:31:14.440 --> 00:31:16.279
<v Speaker 2>know if their pups or kittens. I'm honestly not sure

551
00:31:16.319 --> 00:31:18.079
<v Speaker 2>about that. But whenever she has her first babies, I

552
00:31:18.160 --> 00:31:20.079
<v Speaker 2>think that whole thing gets kind of torn apart as

553
00:31:20.119 --> 00:31:23.160
<v Speaker 2>the babies come out. It doesn't sound very pleasant to

554
00:31:23.200 --> 00:31:26.160
<v Speaker 2>be a hyena. I'll be honest, no it doesn't.

555
00:31:26.240 --> 00:31:31.160
<v Speaker 1>But just with you talking about the increase in scientific thinking,

556
00:31:31.400 --> 00:31:34.319
<v Speaker 1>do you think that this hyena theory in a sense

557
00:31:34.559 --> 00:31:39.119
<v Speaker 1>was a kind of example of scientific thinking gone wrong.

558
00:31:39.920 --> 00:31:46.000
<v Speaker 2>Well, what seemed to happen, according to Smith's research is

559
00:31:46.079 --> 00:31:51.880
<v Speaker 2>that people, I guess it's actually started with a wolf

560
00:31:52.240 --> 00:31:55.920
<v Speaker 2>killing outbreak in the Lyon region before she Adon, about

561
00:31:55.920 --> 00:32:02.920
<v Speaker 2>ten years before, and people thought because very similarly similarly,

562
00:32:03.559 --> 00:32:09.039
<v Speaker 2>there were people thinking that a hyena was responsible because

563
00:32:09.039 --> 00:32:12.839
<v Speaker 2>of its bite force and a few other factors. So

564
00:32:13.680 --> 00:32:16.839
<v Speaker 2>when people were writing about it, they were writing about

565
00:32:16.920 --> 00:32:19.599
<v Speaker 2>the possibility that it was a hyena, And so when

566
00:32:19.680 --> 00:32:23.640
<v Speaker 2>Jevadon had its outbreak, the hyena story comes up again,

567
00:32:24.720 --> 00:32:31.400
<v Speaker 2>and it just it doesn't fit exactly because there's no

568
00:32:31.440 --> 00:32:34.480
<v Speaker 2>explanation for why they would be a hyaena. So what

569
00:32:34.640 --> 00:32:38.720
<v Speaker 2>happens is Smith's not meaning, obviously, but Jay Smith his

570
00:32:38.880 --> 00:32:42.119
<v Speaker 2>hypothesis is that because it was happening at the same

571
00:32:42.160 --> 00:32:46.759
<v Speaker 2>time as the Enlightenment, and people wanted a naturalistic explanation

572
00:32:47.559 --> 00:32:52.359
<v Speaker 2>for why these killing stories, you know, were happening. Rather

573
00:32:52.440 --> 00:32:55.920
<v Speaker 2>than pose it that the people who were witnessing peculiar

574
00:32:56.079 --> 00:33:02.119
<v Speaker 2>qualities to the kills, rather than idea that people were mistaken,

575
00:33:02.559 --> 00:33:08.680
<v Speaker 2>they said, what naturally existing animal most closely matches the

576
00:33:08.799 --> 00:33:12.599
<v Speaker 2>qualities and characteristics we're seeing. And the answer is hyena

577
00:33:13.119 --> 00:33:16.160
<v Speaker 2>because it a lot of the stories and legends about

578
00:33:16.160 --> 00:33:20.119
<v Speaker 2>it matched up very nicely. But that's all based on

579
00:33:20.640 --> 00:33:26.079
<v Speaker 2>folklore and a naturalistic tendency and a sort of interest

580
00:33:26.160 --> 00:33:31.160
<v Speaker 2>in preserving the sort of dark and mysterious and romantic

581
00:33:31.279 --> 00:33:37.119
<v Speaker 2>qualities of nature. So it's a long article. Again, I'll

582
00:33:37.119 --> 00:33:38.519
<v Speaker 2>post a link to it in the show notes, but

583
00:33:38.599 --> 00:33:41.319
<v Speaker 2>I'll say that he makes a very compelling case that

584
00:33:41.400 --> 00:33:44.119
<v Speaker 2>what we're really seeing is an example of people looking

585
00:33:44.200 --> 00:33:50.559
<v Speaker 2>for naturalistic explanations at the same time wanting to accept

586
00:33:50.680 --> 00:33:56.160
<v Speaker 2>all the peculiar reports, and in that sense, the hyena works.

587
00:33:57.039 --> 00:34:01.720
<v Speaker 2>But Smith's book has really, really well researched and explained

588
00:34:01.759 --> 00:34:04.920
<v Speaker 2>book makes a better case. I think that what's really

589
00:34:04.960 --> 00:34:10.079
<v Speaker 2>going on is wolves in conjunction with sort of conflated

590
00:34:10.199 --> 00:34:15.880
<v Speaker 2>stories and peasant based folklore, are are expanding the qualities

591
00:34:15.880 --> 00:34:19.559
<v Speaker 2>of the wolf in a sort of narrative thread that

592
00:34:19.679 --> 00:34:24.400
<v Speaker 2>makes it supernatural that it's not really warranted. So, you know,

593
00:34:24.519 --> 00:34:26.719
<v Speaker 2>wolves make a better explanation for the whole case.

594
00:34:27.639 --> 00:34:29.679
<v Speaker 1>So why do you think that that theory is still

595
00:34:29.840 --> 00:34:33.760
<v Speaker 1>around today that has been debunked. How come people are

596
00:34:33.760 --> 00:34:35.280
<v Speaker 1>still saying, oh, well, we need to look at the

597
00:34:35.440 --> 00:34:37.000
<v Speaker 1>hyaena as possible.

598
00:34:37.239 --> 00:34:40.880
<v Speaker 2>Honestly, I think it's because in the short run, like

599
00:34:40.920 --> 00:34:44.440
<v Speaker 2>if you're not really digging deep, the hyena does have

600
00:34:44.480 --> 00:34:46.400
<v Speaker 2>the bite force to do a lot of the things

601
00:34:46.440 --> 00:34:49.320
<v Speaker 2>that happen, But you don't have to have that bite

602
00:34:49.360 --> 00:34:51.920
<v Speaker 2>force if you've got multiple wolves pulling a person apart.

603
00:34:53.119 --> 00:34:57.800
<v Speaker 2>You know, there's a lot, you know, So it's just

604
00:34:59.400 --> 00:35:02.679
<v Speaker 2>it's cool. It's way more interesting to have some rogue

605
00:35:02.679 --> 00:35:07.840
<v Speaker 2>animal like a lion, like in the movie Brotherhood of Wolves,

606
00:35:08.519 --> 00:35:11.440
<v Speaker 2>they have like a lion wearing armor or something, which

607
00:35:11.480 --> 00:35:14.519
<v Speaker 2>is really it's a great movie, by the way, but

608
00:35:15.760 --> 00:35:23.280
<v Speaker 2>that's not really historically accurate movie, and Wolves is kind

609
00:35:23.280 --> 00:35:27.719
<v Speaker 2>of boring. I mean, there's multiple breakouts of this exact

610
00:35:27.800 --> 00:35:33.480
<v Speaker 2>thing happening, and Wolves explain it completely naturalistically, but that's

611
00:35:33.519 --> 00:35:37.079
<v Speaker 2>not nearly as fascinating and creepy. I mean, at what

612
00:35:37.239 --> 00:35:40.280
<v Speaker 2>point Smith points out that by the time they get

613
00:35:40.280 --> 00:35:43.599
<v Speaker 2>to the point where they've got actual hyena examples that

614
00:35:43.639 --> 00:35:46.840
<v Speaker 2>they've brought into the National Museum, they even when they

615
00:35:46.840 --> 00:35:50.079
<v Speaker 2>put them up on display, they write like placards for

616
00:35:50.159 --> 00:35:52.800
<v Speaker 2>it that talk about the case of Java, Dawn and

617
00:35:52.880 --> 00:35:56.960
<v Speaker 2>Lyon and the sort of supernatural qualities. Because in the

618
00:35:57.000 --> 00:36:01.320
<v Speaker 2>same way that you have Jurassic Park. Now, so twenty

619
00:36:01.320 --> 00:36:03.360
<v Speaker 2>five years ago, Jurassic Park comes out, they give like

620
00:36:03.400 --> 00:36:07.119
<v Speaker 2>the best dinosaurs they possibly can, and then later on

621
00:36:07.199 --> 00:36:09.519
<v Speaker 2>we realized no, no, no, these dinosaurs would have feathers,

622
00:36:09.519 --> 00:36:12.599
<v Speaker 2>they would look way different, but they never update them

623
00:36:12.639 --> 00:36:16.480
<v Speaker 2>because that's the community story. The community story is they

624
00:36:16.480 --> 00:36:19.760
<v Speaker 2>look like this cool scaled thing and changing him into

625
00:36:19.800 --> 00:36:24.199
<v Speaker 2>feathered doesn't make any sense or whatever. So hold on

626
00:36:24.239 --> 00:36:26.119
<v Speaker 2>to the legend, because that's what's going to get people

627
00:36:26.119 --> 00:36:28.360
<v Speaker 2>to pay their you know, Franks, to come in here

628
00:36:28.360 --> 00:36:30.199
<v Speaker 2>and look at these examples, right.

629
00:36:30.119 --> 00:36:35.880
<v Speaker 1>And Leah, there's definitely truth to that. You mentioned the

630
00:36:35.920 --> 00:36:39.760
<v Speaker 1>Brotherhood of the Wolf, and so with that movie, how

631
00:36:39.800 --> 00:36:42.440
<v Speaker 1>did that affect the folklore more recently?

632
00:36:42.480 --> 00:36:45.039
<v Speaker 2>Obviously, you know, I haven't seen a lot of fallout

633
00:36:45.079 --> 00:36:47.719
<v Speaker 2>from that. It's a fantastic movie. It's it's all in French,

634
00:36:48.760 --> 00:36:53.079
<v Speaker 2>and it's got spectacular choreography, good fight scenes, and a

635
00:36:53.239 --> 00:36:56.280
<v Speaker 2>cool premise. I really like it a lot, But I

636
00:36:56.320 --> 00:36:58.519
<v Speaker 2>haven't seen that that's bled out into the folk floor

637
00:36:58.639 --> 00:37:03.079
<v Speaker 2>very much, which I'm honestly thankful for. I haven't seen

638
00:37:03.119 --> 00:37:08.280
<v Speaker 2>like a sudden absurge and lions being the the the candidate.

639
00:37:08.320 --> 00:37:12.559
<v Speaker 2>But what I have seen is a continuous resurgence of

640
00:37:12.599 --> 00:37:15.320
<v Speaker 2>the idea that it might be a hyena, and I think,

641
00:37:15.599 --> 00:37:17.400
<v Speaker 2>I think realistically now.

642
00:37:17.320 --> 00:37:19.920
<v Speaker 1>To be fair, even recently, yeah, very.

643
00:37:19.760 --> 00:37:22.360
<v Speaker 2>Recently, just a few weeks ago, I saw a really

644
00:37:22.920 --> 00:37:26.320
<v Speaker 2>interesting online discussion about this and on Facebook, and.

645
00:37:26.320 --> 00:37:28.679
<v Speaker 1>It was you said it was in a skeptical context

646
00:37:28.679 --> 00:37:29.039
<v Speaker 1>as well.

647
00:37:29.159 --> 00:37:33.239
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and it's it's it's it's brought up again and

648
00:37:33.239 --> 00:37:36.360
<v Speaker 2>again because you know, would it make sense that it

649
00:37:36.400 --> 00:37:37.440
<v Speaker 2>was hyenas.

650
00:37:38.599 --> 00:37:42.280
<v Speaker 1>I don't know, honestly, the ones with gemstones for.

651
00:37:44.800 --> 00:37:48.480
<v Speaker 2>Well, I just think the hyena in general, uh, you know,

652
00:37:48.559 --> 00:37:52.079
<v Speaker 2>it's it's got an incredible bite force. But humans are

653
00:37:52.079 --> 00:37:55.960
<v Speaker 2>not as primary prey, and I don't like the idea

654
00:37:56.000 --> 00:37:58.320
<v Speaker 2>of a one, you know, one or more making their

655
00:37:58.320 --> 00:38:03.519
<v Speaker 2>way to Europe and and existing is very unlikely, like

656
00:38:03.559 --> 00:38:06.079
<v Speaker 2>for to migrate from Africa. They did have them brought

657
00:38:06.079 --> 00:38:11.719
<v Speaker 2>over on ships for menageries, but that doesn't really account

658
00:38:11.760 --> 00:38:16.159
<v Speaker 2>for it. And there were prehistoric hyenas that would have

659
00:38:16.199 --> 00:38:18.760
<v Speaker 2>been great candidates, but they weren't alive at the time

660
00:38:18.800 --> 00:38:23.360
<v Speaker 2>of this case. So, but wolves were, and wolves could

661
00:38:23.360 --> 00:38:27.119
<v Speaker 2>account for everything. So you know Occham's razor, and everybody

662
00:38:27.119 --> 00:38:32.679
<v Speaker 2>loves to have me bring that up. Wolves fit nicely

663
00:38:32.719 --> 00:38:35.320
<v Speaker 2>without requiring any supernatural elements or.

664
00:38:35.480 --> 00:38:38.360
<v Speaker 1>They do absolutely So I guess we should get back

665
00:38:38.360 --> 00:38:41.880
<v Speaker 1>to the silver reference. So in your research, did you

666
00:38:41.920 --> 00:38:44.920
<v Speaker 1>figure out when silver bullets became the go to method

667
00:38:45.079 --> 00:38:46.320
<v Speaker 1>for killing rebels?

668
00:38:46.960 --> 00:38:50.639
<v Speaker 2>Yeah? So, surprisingly, it seems like it was around eighteen

669
00:38:50.719 --> 00:38:55.800
<v Speaker 2>eighty two, eighteen eighty three, somewhere in the eighteen eighties

670
00:38:55.960 --> 00:39:01.199
<v Speaker 2>that silver bullets became part of the folklore were killing werewolves.

671
00:39:03.360 --> 00:39:07.639
<v Speaker 2>The idea of silver killing shape changers had existed before that.

672
00:39:07.679 --> 00:39:10.079
<v Speaker 2>We've talked a little bit about that before. It tied

673
00:39:10.119 --> 00:39:14.079
<v Speaker 2>in closely to witch folklore. So witches were primarily turning

674
00:39:14.079 --> 00:39:17.440
<v Speaker 2>into hairs or cats. A few of them would turn

675
00:39:17.519 --> 00:39:22.000
<v Speaker 2>into dogs and very rarely into wolves. But the folklore

676
00:39:22.039 --> 00:39:24.039
<v Speaker 2>around shape changers was if you wanted to kill a

677
00:39:24.039 --> 00:39:27.360
<v Speaker 2>shape changer, a silver bullet would kill a witch. And

678
00:39:27.480 --> 00:39:31.519
<v Speaker 2>I suppose the reason for that is because silver typically

679
00:39:32.039 --> 00:39:37.599
<v Speaker 2>doesn't corrode like apparently, if my research is accurate, the

680
00:39:37.639 --> 00:39:40.480
<v Speaker 2>fact that silver corrodes readily now has more to do

681
00:39:40.519 --> 00:39:45.199
<v Speaker 2>with the Industrial Revolution. All the changes in the atmosphere

682
00:39:45.239 --> 00:39:48.320
<v Speaker 2>that have happened in human lives since humans have started

683
00:39:48.320 --> 00:39:51.519
<v Speaker 2>burning coal and other things has changed the atmosphere to

684
00:39:51.519 --> 00:39:53.760
<v Speaker 2>make it more cidic and make it so that silver

685
00:39:53.800 --> 00:39:57.920
<v Speaker 2>turns dark quicker. But apparently in ancient times silver tended

686
00:39:57.960 --> 00:40:00.199
<v Speaker 2>to stay more silvery because the air didn't have those

687
00:40:00.239 --> 00:40:04.119
<v Speaker 2>elements in it. The silver is associated with purity because

688
00:40:04.159 --> 00:40:08.159
<v Speaker 2>it typically didn't change form. Now people have to polish

689
00:40:08.199 --> 00:40:09.800
<v Speaker 2>a silver to keep it clean, but that may be

690
00:40:10.000 --> 00:40:12.960
<v Speaker 2>representation of the or maybe an effect of the changes

691
00:40:13.000 --> 00:40:16.320
<v Speaker 2>in the atmosphere related to the Industrial age.

692
00:40:16.440 --> 00:40:18.159
<v Speaker 1>So I was going to ask a side question. I

693
00:40:18.199 --> 00:40:20.760
<v Speaker 1>don't know if you know, but you've heard of the

694
00:40:20.800 --> 00:40:25.519
<v Speaker 1>science or supposed science of alchemy of changing or people

695
00:40:25.559 --> 00:40:28.199
<v Speaker 1>who attempted to change base metals into gold. Was there

696
00:40:28.280 --> 00:40:30.960
<v Speaker 1>ever any kind of equivalent like that for silver or

697
00:40:31.000 --> 00:40:32.039
<v Speaker 1>was it just not worth enough?

698
00:40:32.280 --> 00:40:33.960
<v Speaker 2>I don't think it was worth enough. Yeah, I mean

699
00:40:34.000 --> 00:40:38.320
<v Speaker 2>silver is valuable, and people like that valuable, right right exactly,

700
00:40:38.599 --> 00:40:42.800
<v Speaker 2>But it was people typically didn't have silver bullets. What

701
00:40:42.840 --> 00:40:46.079
<v Speaker 2>would happen because back in the day, right before they

702
00:40:46.119 --> 00:40:50.000
<v Speaker 2>made rifled barrels, which was the time when people were

703
00:40:50.000 --> 00:40:53.960
<v Speaker 2>shooting silver into wolves, people would take a button off

704
00:40:53.960 --> 00:40:56.639
<v Speaker 2>of their coat and they would fashion that into a

705
00:40:56.679 --> 00:40:59.039
<v Speaker 2>bullet and fire it. Or they would make something like

706
00:40:59.079 --> 00:41:01.920
<v Speaker 2>a shotgun blast where they would take, you know, anything

707
00:41:01.960 --> 00:41:05.079
<v Speaker 2>they could find of silver. I think by the time

708
00:41:05.119 --> 00:41:10.440
<v Speaker 2>you get to the Werewolf of Paris, which is a

709
00:41:10.480 --> 00:41:17.119
<v Speaker 2>novel by Guy or maybe Gee Indoor, Yeah he has

710
00:41:17.480 --> 00:41:20.400
<v Speaker 2>in that story, they take a silver crucifix and melt

711
00:41:20.480 --> 00:41:24.719
<v Speaker 2>it and have it blessed by an archbishop. You know,

712
00:41:24.880 --> 00:41:27.159
<v Speaker 2>but even that is not what actually kills the werewolf

713
00:41:27.199 --> 00:41:29.760
<v Speaker 2>in the story, and that's nineteen thirty three. The idea

714
00:41:29.840 --> 00:41:33.840
<v Speaker 2>that a silver bullet would kill a werewolf was the

715
00:41:33.880 --> 00:41:37.400
<v Speaker 2>eighteen eighties. But what really cemented it, even though that's

716
00:41:37.440 --> 00:41:39.079
<v Speaker 2>not the method that was used in the movie was

717
00:41:39.119 --> 00:41:42.199
<v Speaker 2>The Wolfman in nineteen forty one, And in the introduction

718
00:41:42.280 --> 00:41:45.320
<v Speaker 2>to this episode, I have a little excerpt where we're

719
00:41:45.360 --> 00:41:48.400
<v Speaker 2>talking about the Okay, so by the time we get

720
00:41:48.400 --> 00:41:53.519
<v Speaker 2>to The Wolfman in nineteen forty one, Kurtsey Admak, who

721
00:41:53.599 --> 00:41:57.880
<v Speaker 2>actually writes that show, he makes it explicit that the

722
00:41:58.239 --> 00:42:02.239
<v Speaker 2>silver bullets required, although he also mentions, well, he doesn't mention,

723
00:42:02.320 --> 00:42:05.679
<v Speaker 2>but in this case, the gypsy tells Lawrence Talbot that

724
00:42:05.840 --> 00:42:08.000
<v Speaker 2>only a silver bullet or a silver knife or like

725
00:42:08.039 --> 00:42:10.519
<v Speaker 2>in his case, the head of a silver cane such

726
00:42:10.519 --> 00:42:12.320
<v Speaker 2>as he carries, will kill a werewolf.

727
00:42:13.000 --> 00:42:15.880
<v Speaker 4>A wearer wolf can be killed only with a silver

728
00:42:15.920 --> 00:42:19.239
<v Speaker 4>bullet or a silver knife or a stick with a

729
00:42:19.280 --> 00:42:21.679
<v Speaker 4>silver handle, and so.

730
00:42:21.679 --> 00:42:24.960
<v Speaker 2>The silver cane kills the were wolf. But that's not

731
00:42:25.440 --> 00:42:31.039
<v Speaker 2>in the folklore until the eighteen eighties. Even so, it's

732
00:42:31.119 --> 00:42:36.440
<v Speaker 2>not until eighteen eighty three I think that we find

733
00:42:36.480 --> 00:42:40.880
<v Speaker 2>a case where the silver bullet specifically shoots a were wolf.

734
00:42:41.400 --> 00:42:46.719
<v Speaker 2>So it's really a relatively recent introduction into the folklore.

735
00:42:46.800 --> 00:42:49.320
<v Speaker 2>It ties into the witchcraft, but it's really just not

736
00:42:49.519 --> 00:42:53.760
<v Speaker 2>part of the actual normal legends. So in the sense

737
00:42:53.760 --> 00:42:58.960
<v Speaker 2>that legends are theoretically based on true stories, this is

738
00:42:59.159 --> 00:43:02.480
<v Speaker 2>a pure fiction, and I mean it's sort of incorporated,

739
00:43:02.519 --> 00:43:08.320
<v Speaker 2>but Mac adds it explicitly into the Wolfman, and then

740
00:43:08.760 --> 00:43:11.280
<v Speaker 2>by the sequel to that, which is well, one of

741
00:43:11.280 --> 00:43:13.719
<v Speaker 2>the sequels to that is Frankenstein Versus the wolf Man,

742
00:43:13.920 --> 00:43:16.119
<v Speaker 2>and that one adds in the element of the full moon.

743
00:43:17.199 --> 00:43:19.960
<v Speaker 2>Going all the way back to satirra con they mentioned

744
00:43:19.960 --> 00:43:23.400
<v Speaker 2>the full moon, but it's not until Frankenstein Versus the

745
00:43:23.440 --> 00:43:28.480
<v Speaker 2>Wolfman that you actually explicitly have a story where the

746
00:43:28.519 --> 00:43:32.000
<v Speaker 2>full moon is responsible for the transformation. So that's and

747
00:43:32.039 --> 00:43:35.199
<v Speaker 2>I just find that fascinating because basically, by the nineteen forties,

748
00:43:35.239 --> 00:43:38.920
<v Speaker 2>when you get si Id Mac involved, wolfman, lore or

749
00:43:38.960 --> 00:43:43.440
<v Speaker 2>werewolf floor is completely transformed by fiction because movies reach

750
00:43:43.440 --> 00:43:45.800
<v Speaker 2>out to people in a way that folklore simply doesn't

751
00:43:45.840 --> 00:43:49.119
<v Speaker 2>have the speed. I mean, you know, movies can spread

752
00:43:49.159 --> 00:43:50.639
<v Speaker 2>folklore faster than anything.

753
00:43:50.840 --> 00:43:54.719
<v Speaker 1>So before that period that you were talking about where

754
00:43:54.760 --> 00:43:59.519
<v Speaker 1>the silver is introduced as being the material weapon of choice.

755
00:44:00.280 --> 00:44:03.000
<v Speaker 1>Were there any other materials that were ever specified as

756
00:44:03.079 --> 00:44:05.000
<v Speaker 1>being suitable for killing a werewolf?

757
00:44:05.280 --> 00:44:05.480
<v Speaker 4>No.

758
00:44:06.079 --> 00:44:09.360
<v Speaker 2>Prior to the introduction of silver being required, it seemed

759
00:44:09.400 --> 00:44:13.119
<v Speaker 2>like a sword, a bullet. I mean, if you look

760
00:44:13.159 --> 00:44:16.039
<v Speaker 2>at it, even as I mean, as you think about this,

761
00:44:17.079 --> 00:44:20.960
<v Speaker 2>you've got The Wereolf of Paris was nineteen thirty three,

762
00:44:21.039 --> 00:44:24.519
<v Speaker 2>and in that story, which is set earlier than nineteen

763
00:44:24.519 --> 00:44:26.559
<v Speaker 2>thirty three, it's set I think in the seventeen hundreds.

764
00:44:27.159 --> 00:44:29.480
<v Speaker 2>The werewolf even though they feature a silver bullet in

765
00:44:29.519 --> 00:44:33.039
<v Speaker 2>the story, that's not what kills the werewolf. The werewolf

766
00:44:33.079 --> 00:44:36.000
<v Speaker 2>actually jumps out of an insane asylum and tries to

767
00:44:36.079 --> 00:44:40.199
<v Speaker 2>land on a mattress like which is the Wiley Cote method,

768
00:44:40.239 --> 00:44:43.079
<v Speaker 2>and he misses the match as you do, right, and

769
00:44:43.119 --> 00:44:46.199
<v Speaker 2>so he falls to his death. So no silver required,

770
00:44:46.599 --> 00:44:48.719
<v Speaker 2>Just don't hit the mattress and off you go.

771
00:44:49.360 --> 00:44:51.639
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, it says that, yeah, killing rest button or something.

772
00:44:51.800 --> 00:44:53.119
<v Speaker 1>Lots of potent Yeah.

773
00:44:53.199 --> 00:44:55.280
<v Speaker 2>I mean, like you know, by the time you get

774
00:44:55.320 --> 00:44:59.280
<v Speaker 2>to modern times, you get things like the classic the

775
00:44:59.599 --> 00:45:02.880
<v Speaker 2>uh uh the Monster Squad, which I love. They have

776
00:45:02.920 --> 00:45:04.679
<v Speaker 2>a scene in that movie where they blow the monster

777
00:45:04.679 --> 00:45:07.159
<v Speaker 2>they blow the wolfman up with dynamite and all the

778
00:45:07.159 --> 00:45:13.599
<v Speaker 2>pieces reassemble because it wasn't a silver bullet, but that

779
00:45:13.599 --> 00:45:17.440
<v Speaker 2>that sort of it's kind of like Warreolves are actually

780
00:45:17.480 --> 00:45:20.800
<v Speaker 2>much better off than say, vampires, because vampires him any Christmas.

781
00:45:20.800 --> 00:45:22.840
<v Speaker 2>They've got a lot of ways to kill them. I mean,

782
00:45:23.440 --> 00:45:26.519
<v Speaker 2>they've got a lot of week Like you romanticize it

783
00:45:26.559 --> 00:45:29.280
<v Speaker 2>all you want. You don't want to be a vampire

784
00:45:29.320 --> 00:45:31.639
<v Speaker 2>because everybody's got a way to kill you or stop

785
00:45:31.679 --> 00:45:32.440
<v Speaker 2>you or stall you.

786
00:45:32.480 --> 00:45:34.719
<v Speaker 1>It's ridiculous.

787
00:45:34.840 --> 00:45:36.559
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, so it's nuts.

788
00:45:37.639 --> 00:45:45.760
<v Speaker 1>We should go back to the moon and to the moon.

789
00:45:47.119 --> 00:45:50.800
<v Speaker 2>I was gonna say the moon, like I say all

790
00:45:50.840 --> 00:45:53.719
<v Speaker 2>the way back into the satiric con was a full

791
00:45:53.760 --> 00:45:57.239
<v Speaker 2>moon was mentioned, but it's not until Frank Time means

792
00:45:57.280 --> 00:46:02.119
<v Speaker 2>the Wolfman that you get the the full moon being

793
00:46:02.199 --> 00:46:06.239
<v Speaker 2>required for the transformation. In that movie, he also explicitly

794
00:46:06.280 --> 00:46:08.800
<v Speaker 2>mentions that the full moon is required to make the

795
00:46:08.840 --> 00:46:12.800
<v Speaker 2>shape shift. But while I was researching this episode, I

796
00:46:12.800 --> 00:46:15.559
<v Speaker 2>got curious about this whole idea of like barking at

797
00:46:15.559 --> 00:46:17.920
<v Speaker 2>the moon or howling at the moon. So I did

798
00:46:18.000 --> 00:46:20.719
<v Speaker 2>little research and I was able to trace the phrase

799
00:46:21.360 --> 00:46:23.519
<v Speaker 2>bark at the moon all the way back to sixteen

800
00:46:23.599 --> 00:46:26.760
<v Speaker 2>sixty three. It may go back further than that, but.

801
00:46:28.400 --> 00:46:29.639
<v Speaker 1>In a slightly different forms.

802
00:46:30.000 --> 00:46:33.880
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, and I was only searching English. But bark

803
00:46:33.920 --> 00:46:38.039
<v Speaker 2>at the moon goes down to cry a phrase from

804
00:46:38.199 --> 00:46:41.760
<v Speaker 2>an article. It says, cry down ceremony and reverence as

805
00:46:41.880 --> 00:46:44.679
<v Speaker 2>dogs bark at the moon. And then in seventeen seventy

806
00:46:44.760 --> 00:46:48.760
<v Speaker 2>six I saw a phrase we need not like dogs

807
00:46:49.079 --> 00:46:54.440
<v Speaker 2>bark at the moon. Well they don't, no, no, not really,

808
00:46:54.719 --> 00:46:58.000
<v Speaker 2>So this this folklore goes back at least to the

809
00:46:58.039 --> 00:47:03.760
<v Speaker 2>sixteen hundreds. Though, this idea that that wolves or dogs

810
00:47:03.760 --> 00:47:06.559
<v Speaker 2>would howl at the moon. Some people speculate that this

811
00:47:06.599 --> 00:47:09.119
<v Speaker 2>is because they lean their heads back and point to

812
00:47:09.159 --> 00:47:12.880
<v Speaker 2>the sky, but this appears to be not related to

813
00:47:12.960 --> 00:47:14.840
<v Speaker 2>the phases of the moon, like, so they do this

814
00:47:14.920 --> 00:47:16.880
<v Speaker 2>year round when they want to communicate with each other.

815
00:47:17.440 --> 00:47:19.840
<v Speaker 1>There's a kind of iconic silhouette of the dog with

816
00:47:19.960 --> 00:47:21.920
<v Speaker 1>the moon in the background. Yeah, as you say, the

817
00:47:21.920 --> 00:47:23.280
<v Speaker 1>dog with its head back bocketing.

818
00:47:23.320 --> 00:47:26.440
<v Speaker 2>Absolute, But that is that is not backed up by

819
00:47:26.440 --> 00:47:32.360
<v Speaker 2>any of the actual biology or research. And in eighteen

820
00:47:32.480 --> 00:47:35.239
<v Speaker 2>ten I saw this cool thing. It says there was

821
00:47:35.280 --> 00:47:44.360
<v Speaker 2>a encyclopedia londonisis, which was is Encyclopedia Denisis or the

822
00:47:44.440 --> 00:47:46.800
<v Speaker 2>Universal Dictionary of the Arts, and it talked about the

823
00:47:46.800 --> 00:47:49.599
<v Speaker 2>phrase to bark at the moon, and it says, the

824
00:47:49.679 --> 00:47:53.000
<v Speaker 2>design of this proverb is to expose the folly of

825
00:47:53.119 --> 00:47:56.480
<v Speaker 2>those who were given to threaten or rail at their

826
00:47:56.480 --> 00:48:00.480
<v Speaker 2>superiors or those who are out of their reach, to

827
00:48:00.679 --> 00:48:02.880
<v Speaker 2>as little purpose as it is for a dog to

828
00:48:02.920 --> 00:48:06.719
<v Speaker 2>pretend to insult and terrify the moon by barking. Now,

829
00:48:06.880 --> 00:48:09.800
<v Speaker 2>I say that I found that interesting because that's eighteen ten.

830
00:48:10.239 --> 00:48:12.559
<v Speaker 2>To bark at the moon was basically like, you know,

831
00:48:12.880 --> 00:48:15.199
<v Speaker 2>you know, it's about as effective as shooting a bird

832
00:48:15.239 --> 00:48:16.880
<v Speaker 2>at the guy in front of you while you're driving

833
00:48:16.880 --> 00:48:21.400
<v Speaker 2>on the highway. It doesn't do anything, right a it

834
00:48:21.519 --> 00:48:26.360
<v Speaker 2>means an ineffective, active defiance at a power who's over you. Right.

835
00:48:27.360 --> 00:48:29.800
<v Speaker 2>But by the time you get to the nineteen eighties,

836
00:48:30.159 --> 00:48:33.920
<v Speaker 2>bark at the moon means you're crazy, you know, howling

837
00:48:33.960 --> 00:48:37.280
<v Speaker 2>at the moon, barking it's become a synonym for you know,

838
00:48:37.480 --> 00:48:39.280
<v Speaker 2>you're barking mad, right.

839
00:48:39.119 --> 00:48:42.400
<v Speaker 1>So yes, and I was I'm going to ask you

840
00:48:42.400 --> 00:48:46.079
<v Speaker 1>about that too. With the werewolf transformation transformation during a

841
00:48:46.079 --> 00:48:47.920
<v Speaker 1>full moon, do you think that that goes back to

842
00:48:48.159 --> 00:48:51.760
<v Speaker 1>the whole idea of terms like lunacy and lunatic and

843
00:48:51.840 --> 00:48:54.920
<v Speaker 1>the belief that mental illness was some kind of periodic

844
00:48:54.960 --> 00:48:56.440
<v Speaker 1>insanity that was based.

845
00:48:56.159 --> 00:48:59.480
<v Speaker 2>On Yeah, yeah, I honestly do. I think it may

846
00:48:59.480 --> 00:49:02.840
<v Speaker 2>tie you to that folklore. I wasn't able to find

847
00:49:02.840 --> 00:49:05.519
<v Speaker 2>any specific like, you know, here's a clear example of

848
00:49:05.559 --> 00:49:09.280
<v Speaker 2>how it changes. But that sort of urban legend mentality

849
00:49:09.280 --> 00:49:11.360
<v Speaker 2>of that the moon can drive people mad, and the

850
00:49:11.440 --> 00:49:16.760
<v Speaker 2>idea that lunacy literally has the word luna in it.

851
00:49:16.440 --> 00:49:20.000
<v Speaker 2>It's a hard to kill a piece of folklore. I mean,

852
00:49:20.679 --> 00:49:25.239
<v Speaker 2>perfectly or you know, fairly reasonable rational people still believe

853
00:49:25.519 --> 00:49:28.679
<v Speaker 2>that the moon influences people's behavior, oh.

854
00:49:28.639 --> 00:49:31.199
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, or there are more cases of people are going

855
00:49:31.239 --> 00:49:35.239
<v Speaker 1>to the emergency ward and hospitals during full moons.

856
00:49:34.880 --> 00:49:38.360
<v Speaker 2>And right, and just so in case our listeners haven't

857
00:49:38.599 --> 00:49:41.960
<v Speaker 2>been made aware of this, that literally does not stack

858
00:49:42.079 --> 00:49:45.440
<v Speaker 2>up to the empirical data. And there's a perfectly cool

859
00:49:45.880 --> 00:49:49.639
<v Speaker 2>and you know, it's very logical rational explanation say, oh, well,

860
00:49:49.840 --> 00:49:52.400
<v Speaker 2>with a full moon, you'd have more light. Therefore people

861
00:49:52.440 --> 00:49:55.199
<v Speaker 2>would do more crazy things, or people might at timpt crimes.

862
00:49:55.400 --> 00:49:57.000
<v Speaker 2>You know, but it seems like if you're a criminal

863
00:49:57.079 --> 00:49:58.760
<v Speaker 2>you don't want to be seen. Maybe it makes more

864
00:49:58.800 --> 00:50:00.960
<v Speaker 2>sense to do things in the dark. It doesn't matter

865
00:50:01.000 --> 00:50:02.960
<v Speaker 2>which of those is true. The reality is there's no

866
00:50:03.480 --> 00:50:06.239
<v Speaker 2>empirical explanation or there's no empirical data to support the

867
00:50:06.280 --> 00:50:09.920
<v Speaker 2>idea that the moon causes an increase in bad behavior.

868
00:50:09.960 --> 00:50:13.840
<v Speaker 1>And I think we've mentioned before Scott Lillianfeld and his

869
00:50:14.239 --> 00:50:19.039
<v Speaker 1>other colleagues had put together a very good article about

870
00:50:19.039 --> 00:50:22.960
<v Speaker 1>this in their book. I think it's fifty Myths and

871
00:50:23.039 --> 00:50:26.519
<v Speaker 1>Mysteries about Psychology or I don't quote me on the title.

872
00:50:26.960 --> 00:50:29.280
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, you know what, if you can find that, we'll

873
00:50:29.400 --> 00:50:30.519
<v Speaker 2>throw link in the show notes.

874
00:50:30.960 --> 00:50:35.079
<v Speaker 1>Okay, so you also mentioned something about the Science Fair project,

875
00:50:35.400 --> 00:50:36.599
<v Speaker 1>So can you tell us a bit about that.

876
00:50:37.079 --> 00:50:39.800
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, so I wasn't able to convince my kids to

877
00:50:39.800 --> 00:50:41.519
<v Speaker 2>do the Science Fair project. But so while I was

878
00:50:41.559 --> 00:50:45.280
<v Speaker 2>doing research on the magical qualities of silver, I read

879
00:50:45.320 --> 00:50:50.400
<v Speaker 2>across some folklore that said that American pioneers when they

880
00:50:50.440 --> 00:50:55.400
<v Speaker 2>were crossing the plains, they would put silver coins into

881
00:50:55.519 --> 00:51:02.760
<v Speaker 2>their milk jug because the silver would preserve the milk longer,

882
00:51:02.800 --> 00:51:05.320
<v Speaker 2>like the milk would last longer. Now, this isn't a

883
00:51:05.400 --> 00:51:10.360
<v Speaker 2>time when this is before the invention of pastorization. I

884
00:51:10.400 --> 00:51:12.159
<v Speaker 2>don't remember if I've covered this on Monster Dog, but

885
00:51:12.159 --> 00:51:15.000
<v Speaker 2>I did a bunch of research into pastorization. Yeah, so

886
00:51:15.639 --> 00:51:19.960
<v Speaker 2>basically the discovery of pastorization. So let me just back

887
00:51:20.000 --> 00:51:22.440
<v Speaker 2>out just a second. We say pastorization because we're talking

888
00:51:22.440 --> 00:51:28.199
<v Speaker 2>about Louis Pasteur. Louis Pasteur published his explanation about how

889
00:51:28.199 --> 00:51:32.400
<v Speaker 2>pastorization works in the eighteen eighties, I believe, and his

890
00:51:32.480 --> 00:51:35.920
<v Speaker 2>work came out of like beer research. So people who

891
00:51:35.920 --> 00:51:37.559
<v Speaker 2>want to have a beer when their show, you know,

892
00:51:37.599 --> 00:51:39.360
<v Speaker 2>this is a great time to drink it like a drink.

893
00:51:39.719 --> 00:51:42.039
<v Speaker 1>So we should do a show on him because he

894
00:51:42.079 --> 00:51:43.000
<v Speaker 1>was a fascinating guy.

895
00:51:43.119 --> 00:51:45.679
<v Speaker 2>He really was. So what he did was not only

896
00:51:45.679 --> 00:51:50.239
<v Speaker 2>did he figure out why pastorization works, but he did

897
00:51:50.280 --> 00:51:52.760
<v Speaker 2>a lot of mathematical explanations so that people who were

898
00:51:52.760 --> 00:51:55.400
<v Speaker 2>in the brewing business and wanted to preserve food could

899
00:51:55.480 --> 00:51:58.000
<v Speaker 2>understand what temperatures to get the food up to and

900
00:51:58.039 --> 00:52:00.719
<v Speaker 2>all that sort of thing. And he the germ theory

901
00:52:00.719 --> 00:52:03.440
<v Speaker 2>of medicine to explain what was actually happening. But it

902
00:52:03.559 --> 00:52:06.599
<v Speaker 2>wasn't Pasteur who really discovered how to preserve food through heating.

903
00:52:07.079 --> 00:52:11.880
<v Speaker 2>It actually happened in the late seventeen nineties early eighteen hundreds,

904
00:52:12.519 --> 00:52:15.679
<v Speaker 2>Napoleon was looking for a way to preserve food for

905
00:52:15.719 --> 00:52:22.039
<v Speaker 2>his troops, and there was a researcher who had discovered

906
00:52:22.280 --> 00:52:24.960
<v Speaker 2>that by heating food in old champagne bottles, he could

907
00:52:24.960 --> 00:52:28.199
<v Speaker 2>make the foods they preserved. He didn't know the mechanism,

908
00:52:28.280 --> 00:52:30.239
<v Speaker 2>but he knew how to make it work, and so

909
00:52:30.320 --> 00:52:34.639
<v Speaker 2>he was able to basically store food in bottles by

910
00:52:34.679 --> 00:52:38.679
<v Speaker 2>heating it. And it lasted a long time, right, And

911
00:52:38.760 --> 00:52:43.599
<v Speaker 2>so he effectively got a big prize from Napoleon. And

912
00:52:43.679 --> 00:52:47.159
<v Speaker 2>so it took almost one hundred years for them to

913
00:52:47.199 --> 00:52:52.400
<v Speaker 2>realize why it worked right. But in the meantime before that,

914
00:52:52.440 --> 00:52:54.960
<v Speaker 2>there were folklore methods for making things work, and these

915
00:52:54.960 --> 00:52:58.280
<v Speaker 2>silver coins. People put high silver content coins into the

916
00:52:58.400 --> 00:53:02.519
<v Speaker 2>milk allegedly and it would make the milk glass longer. Now,

917
00:53:02.559 --> 00:53:05.159
<v Speaker 2>I tried to track this origin of this myth down

918
00:53:05.559 --> 00:53:09.599
<v Speaker 2>and I found some examples of this story in folklore

919
00:53:09.679 --> 00:53:13.360
<v Speaker 2>in Europe, but it was talking about American pioneers. I

920
00:53:13.400 --> 00:53:17.400
<v Speaker 2>couldn't find any American examples. But the question remains, does

921
00:53:17.599 --> 00:53:22.480
<v Speaker 2>silver actually have an efficacious effect by putting coins in

922
00:53:22.519 --> 00:53:24.760
<v Speaker 2>the milk? Will it actually last longer? And I thought, well,

923
00:53:24.760 --> 00:53:26.960
<v Speaker 2>you could actually do a pretty easy experiment about this.

924
00:53:27.199 --> 00:53:30.760
<v Speaker 2>You get some high silver content coins, probably from before

925
00:53:30.840 --> 00:53:33.679
<v Speaker 2>nineteen fifteen in the US. If you get early eighteen hundred,

926
00:53:33.719 --> 00:53:37.159
<v Speaker 2>it's even better because in more recent times the American

927
00:53:37.199 --> 00:53:40.360
<v Speaker 2>silver coins usually aren't silver. That's the either here or there.

928
00:53:40.440 --> 00:53:42.840
<v Speaker 2>But anyway, you go get these older coins, you put

929
00:53:42.840 --> 00:53:44.880
<v Speaker 2>them into a petri dish along with some raw milk.

930
00:53:44.920 --> 00:53:46.719
<v Speaker 2>It can't be pasteurized milks. You're gonna have to have

931
00:53:46.760 --> 00:53:51.199
<v Speaker 2>a cow. And basically the question is if you take

932
00:53:51.239 --> 00:53:54.039
<v Speaker 2>some without silver and you take some with the silver coins,

933
00:53:54.239 --> 00:53:58.519
<v Speaker 2>do the ones with silver coin cause a petri dish

934
00:53:58.639 --> 00:54:04.679
<v Speaker 2>to be slower at developing bacterial growth. Now that may

935
00:54:04.719 --> 00:54:08.639
<v Speaker 2>sound like something that's kind of nutty, but in reality,

936
00:54:09.559 --> 00:54:13.760
<v Speaker 2>silver in its most pure form, especially in a microscopic form,

937
00:54:13.880 --> 00:54:18.519
<v Speaker 2>actually can have an antibacterial effect. This is an actually

938
00:54:18.599 --> 00:54:20.719
<v Speaker 2>known medical factor.

939
00:54:21.079 --> 00:54:22.519
<v Speaker 1>That's known as colloidal silver.

940
00:54:22.920 --> 00:54:26.679
<v Speaker 2>Well it's not actually colloidal silver. Yeah no, that's a good.

941
00:54:27.079 --> 00:54:29.280
<v Speaker 2>That's funny if you want to turn yourself into a smurf,

942
00:54:29.400 --> 00:54:32.079
<v Speaker 2>drink up. But coloidal silver has not been shown to

943
00:54:32.119 --> 00:54:36.400
<v Speaker 2>have any real medical effect. But real silver threads is

944
00:54:36.440 --> 00:54:40.320
<v Speaker 2>now used. You know, this is a long conversation. I

945
00:54:40.400 --> 00:54:42.840
<v Speaker 2>probably it's probably outside the scope of what we should

946
00:54:42.840 --> 00:54:46.719
<v Speaker 2>cover here. But in my research it gets really interesting

947
00:54:46.760 --> 00:54:52.079
<v Speaker 2>because some of the early discoveries about the efficacy of

948
00:54:52.119 --> 00:54:58.519
<v Speaker 2>silver involved some of the earliest gynecological research. Unfortunately, a

949
00:54:58.559 --> 00:55:01.159
<v Speaker 2>lot of that research was done on Sleigh, and the

950
00:55:01.199 --> 00:55:05.559
<v Speaker 2>guy involved is a very controversial figure and they're trying

951
00:55:05.599 --> 00:55:08.239
<v Speaker 2>to pull down his statue and lots of other things.

952
00:55:08.679 --> 00:55:13.159
<v Speaker 2>So he is, uh, you know, he's he's definitely being

953
00:55:13.159 --> 00:55:17.719
<v Speaker 2>re evaluated because as he should like, silver really does

954
00:55:17.880 --> 00:55:23.800
<v Speaker 2>have anti bacterial effects in certain forms. I'm very suspicious

955
00:55:23.920 --> 00:55:27.360
<v Speaker 2>about the idea that silver coins could actually have this effect,

956
00:55:27.440 --> 00:55:30.039
<v Speaker 2>but I could be wrong. Unfortunately, I've never had the

957
00:55:30.079 --> 00:55:32.360
<v Speaker 2>time or the money. It's not a lot of money,

958
00:55:32.360 --> 00:55:34.840
<v Speaker 2>but to actually do this experiment. It would be interesting

959
00:55:34.880 --> 00:55:37.840
<v Speaker 2>to actually do this experiment and find out do silver

960
00:55:37.840 --> 00:55:41.400
<v Speaker 2>coins actually affect the bacterial growth rate in milk?

961
00:55:41.760 --> 00:55:44.000
<v Speaker 1>So yeah, that would be a fun project. But you know,

962
00:55:44.079 --> 00:55:48.440
<v Speaker 1>the best way to preserve anything about you pyramid Put

963
00:55:48.480 --> 00:55:51.000
<v Speaker 1>it a pyramid exactly.

964
00:55:54.199 --> 00:55:56.119
<v Speaker 2>Yes, I did. Actually I did read your.

965
00:55:56.039 --> 00:56:00.480
<v Speaker 1>Mind, I guess. To get back to the topic of

966
00:56:00.519 --> 00:56:03.519
<v Speaker 1>were wolves anyway, are there any other new were wolf

967
00:56:03.599 --> 00:56:06.440
<v Speaker 1>facts or folklore that you want to discussed before we

968
00:56:06.840 --> 00:56:07.519
<v Speaker 1>end the interview.

969
00:56:07.800 --> 00:56:09.400
<v Speaker 2>Well, we fit on some of it. I wanted to

970
00:56:09.440 --> 00:56:13.760
<v Speaker 2>mention that the first explicit example of a full moon

971
00:56:13.800 --> 00:56:17.280
<v Speaker 2>being required for transformation appears to be from Curtsey iMac

972
00:56:17.400 --> 00:56:22.480
<v Speaker 2>and from Frank Sammy's The Wolf Man. And we've talked

973
00:56:22.519 --> 00:56:26.159
<v Speaker 2>about bark at the moon and wolves don't howl at

974
00:56:26.199 --> 00:56:28.199
<v Speaker 2>the moon. That was the main I want to make

975
00:56:28.199 --> 00:56:30.280
<v Speaker 2>sure we hit those myths because the are very common myths,

976
00:56:30.960 --> 00:56:33.800
<v Speaker 2>they really are. You hear those all the time, and

977
00:56:33.960 --> 00:56:36.360
<v Speaker 2>I mean, what's more iconic than a wolf howling at

978
00:56:36.400 --> 00:56:39.880
<v Speaker 2>the moon except that it isn't it's talking to its friends, right.

979
00:56:40.000 --> 00:56:46.639
<v Speaker 2>So in my neighborhood, yeah, coyotes as well, coytes, dogs

980
00:56:46.639 --> 00:56:47.239
<v Speaker 2>and wolves.

981
00:56:47.280 --> 00:56:50.079
<v Speaker 1>So yeah, oh you say coyotes. I hear coyotes a

982
00:56:50.079 --> 00:56:50.840
<v Speaker 1>lot around here.

983
00:56:52.039 --> 00:56:54.280
<v Speaker 2>Well I am from the south, but we do have

984
00:56:54.519 --> 00:56:56.559
<v Speaker 2>We've had them in my neighborhood, so they're all over.

985
00:56:56.679 --> 00:57:02.039
<v Speaker 2>They are a seriously heart party and impressive species. And

986
00:57:02.119 --> 00:57:04.519
<v Speaker 2>around my parts, these things, these things eat so well,

987
00:57:04.559 --> 00:57:08.440
<v Speaker 2>they look like like you know, they look like scale

988
00:57:08.480 --> 00:57:10.000
<v Speaker 2>down wolves. They're really impressive.

989
00:57:10.119 --> 00:57:12.960
<v Speaker 1>So yeah, to close, we we always have a question

990
00:57:13.760 --> 00:57:15.760
<v Speaker 1>that we close with, and I guess this is a

991
00:57:15.800 --> 00:57:19.440
<v Speaker 1>modified version because it's us. But we're getting close to

992
00:57:19.480 --> 00:57:21.599
<v Speaker 1>Halloween now, So are you going to be watching any

993
00:57:21.599 --> 00:57:23.639
<v Speaker 1>were wolf movies this year to celebrate?

994
00:57:23.920 --> 00:57:28.159
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I'm definitely going to be rewatching the Howling we

995
00:57:28.280 --> 00:57:31.880
<v Speaker 2>watched because again I mentioned my marriage, but we watch

996
00:57:32.079 --> 00:57:35.039
<v Speaker 2>American World from London quite a bit around here. I

997
00:57:35.079 --> 00:57:37.480
<v Speaker 2>haven't watched The Howling in quite a while. And then

998
00:57:38.119 --> 00:57:41.840
<v Speaker 2>there's a couple of the House of Frankenstein, Frank Mee's

999
00:57:41.880 --> 00:57:46.800
<v Speaker 2>The Wolf Man, and there's a few others that are

1000
00:57:47.480 --> 00:57:50.079
<v Speaker 2>these sort of iconic werewolf movies. I haven't had a

1001
00:57:50.159 --> 00:57:51.079
<v Speaker 2>chance to watch it in a while.

1002
00:57:51.719 --> 00:57:53.480
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, so that sounds good.

1003
00:57:54.159 --> 00:57:56.480
<v Speaker 2>You're going to be busy, Yeah, no, I hope to

1004
00:57:56.480 --> 00:58:00.440
<v Speaker 2>be anyway. So all right, well let's want end up.

1005
00:58:01.320 --> 00:58:04.119
<v Speaker 2>It was great talking to you about where wolves. This

1006
00:58:04.199 --> 00:58:04.960
<v Speaker 2>was Yeah, this is.

1007
00:58:04.960 --> 00:58:07.559
<v Speaker 1>A fun topic and I think we our listeners love

1008
00:58:07.679 --> 00:58:09.239
<v Speaker 1>anything to do with were wolves. So this is a

1009
00:58:09.360 --> 00:58:10.079
<v Speaker 1>good one and I.

1010
00:58:10.039 --> 00:58:13.039
<v Speaker 2>Hope people find this information transformative.

1011
00:58:12.920 --> 00:58:19.159
<v Speaker 1>And pass it on. That one almost slipped.

1012
00:58:18.880 --> 00:58:22.760
<v Speaker 2>By almost all right, Okay, Karen, thanks a lot.

1013
00:58:22.760 --> 00:58:25.119
<v Speaker 1>For Thank you so much. Have a good night.

1014
00:58:27.880 --> 00:58:31.079
<v Speaker 2>You've been listening to Monster Talk, this science show about monsters.

1015
00:58:31.400 --> 00:58:32.559
<v Speaker 2>I'm Blake Smith.

1016
00:58:32.519 --> 00:58:33.719
<v Speaker 1>And I'm Karen Stolsner.

1017
00:58:33.920 --> 00:58:38.199
<v Speaker 2>You just heard a discussion about werewollfloor hyenas, silver and

1018
00:58:38.239 --> 00:58:41.079
<v Speaker 2>the moon. Links to our previous episodes about wolves and

1019
00:58:41.079 --> 00:58:43.960
<v Speaker 2>wearbell Floor are in the show notes at MonsterTalk dot org,

1020
00:58:44.320 --> 00:58:47.079
<v Speaker 2>along with more information about the real and legendary properties

1021
00:58:47.079 --> 00:58:49.840
<v Speaker 2>of silver. If you end up doing any science experiments

1022
00:58:49.840 --> 00:58:52.800
<v Speaker 2>around this legendary preservative power of silver coins, please let

1023
00:58:52.880 --> 00:58:56.800
<v Speaker 2>us know. Our contact information is on our website. Monster

1024
00:58:56.880 --> 00:58:59.639
<v Speaker 2>Talk is an official podcast of Skeptic Magazine, and the

1025
00:59:00.320 --> 00:59:02.639
<v Speaker 2>expressed in the show are those of myself and my

1026
00:59:02.679 --> 00:59:05.440
<v Speaker 2>co host and don't necessarily reflect the opinions of Skeptic

1027
00:59:05.519 --> 00:59:08.679
<v Speaker 2>Magazine or the Skeptic Society. As a reminder, I'll be

1028
00:59:08.719 --> 00:59:11.039
<v Speaker 2>at crypti Con in Kentucky this weekend, so if you

1029
00:59:11.039 --> 00:59:12.679
<v Speaker 2>make it by, please drop by and say hello and

1030
00:59:12.719 --> 00:59:15.000
<v Speaker 2>hear my talk on Saturday, where I'll be discussing the

1031
00:59:15.159 --> 00:59:20.119
<v Speaker 2>Kelly Hopkinsville Goblin case. If you're going to be in Frankfort,

1032
00:59:20.199 --> 00:59:22.800
<v Speaker 2>Kentucky to September, you can catch me speaking at the

1033
00:59:22.840 --> 00:59:26.400
<v Speaker 2>second annual cryptid Con on the weekend of September ninth

1034
00:59:26.440 --> 00:59:29.159
<v Speaker 2>and tenth. This will be at the Capitol Plaza Hotel

1035
00:59:29.199 --> 00:59:32.880
<v Speaker 2>in Frankfurt and you can get tickets at Cryptidcon dot com.

1036
00:59:33.159 --> 00:59:36.119
<v Speaker 2>They've got quite a lineup with cryptozoology and UFO guests

1037
00:59:36.159 --> 00:59:39.519
<v Speaker 2>this year, including Cliff and Bobo from Finding Bigfoot, Glinda

1038
00:59:39.559 --> 00:59:42.880
<v Speaker 2>Godfrey of dog Man Fame, Bob Gimlin when half of

1039
00:59:42.920 --> 00:59:47.239
<v Speaker 2>the Patterson Gimblin film team, Seth Breedlove of Smalltown Monsters,

1040
00:59:47.239 --> 00:59:49.880
<v Speaker 2>and many more. Man of course, me Blake Smith, host

1041
00:59:49.880 --> 00:59:53.599
<v Speaker 2>of Monster Talk, where I'll be talking about the Kelly Hopkinsville,

1042
00:59:53.719 --> 00:59:57.880
<v Speaker 2>Kentucky Goblins right there in Kentucky. I hope to see

1043
00:59:57.880 --> 01:00:05.360
<v Speaker 2>you there. We hope you've enjoyed this episode of Monster Talk.

1044
01:00:05.719 --> 01:00:07.840
<v Speaker 2>Each episode we strive to bring you the best in

1045
01:00:07.920 --> 01:00:11.400
<v Speaker 2>monster related content with a focus on bringing scientific skepticism

1046
01:00:11.440 --> 01:00:14.960
<v Speaker 2>into the conversation. If you enjoy Monster Talk, We now

1047
01:00:15.000 --> 01:00:17.719
<v Speaker 2>have a variety of ways to support the show, all

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01:00:17.760 --> 01:00:21.679
<v Speaker 2>with convenient links at monster talk dot org, Forge slash support.

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01:00:22.280 --> 01:00:26.320
<v Speaker 2>That's monster talk dot org Forge slash support. There we

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01:00:26.360 --> 01:00:28.360
<v Speaker 2>have links to our Patreon pages as well as a

1051
01:00:28.400 --> 01:00:31.239
<v Speaker 2>donation button. A great way to support the show is

1052
01:00:31.239 --> 01:00:34.480
<v Speaker 2>to buy us books from our Amazon Monster Talk wish list,

1053
01:00:34.760 --> 01:00:38.400
<v Speaker 2>which directly helps us with our research. We love usbooks

1054
01:00:38.519 --> 01:00:40.599
<v Speaker 2>very much, so don't feel compelled to buy new ones,

1055
01:00:40.639 --> 01:00:42.920
<v Speaker 2>and we love Kindle, and we can share our digital

1056
01:00:42.960 --> 01:00:47.079
<v Speaker 2>library with each other. Finally, without spending any money at all.

1057
01:00:47.119 --> 01:00:49.440
<v Speaker 2>You can support us by leaving a positive review at

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01:00:49.440 --> 01:00:53.719
<v Speaker 2>iTunes or wherever you get your podcasts. Positive reviews help

1059
01:00:53.880 --> 01:00:56.000
<v Speaker 2>keep us visible in iTunes, which is a great way

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01:00:56.000 --> 01:00:58.920
<v Speaker 2>to help us find new listeners. And please share our

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01:00:58.920 --> 01:01:07.119
<v Speaker 2>show on your favorite so media platforms.

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01:01:09.920 --> 01:01:15.920
<v Speaker 7>Save the date for a colossal Siicon twenty eighteen. Bigger venue,

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01:01:16.199 --> 01:01:22.440
<v Speaker 7>bigger stars, bigger ideas, bigger fun, Las Vegas, October eighteenth

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01:01:22.559 --> 01:01:28.599
<v Speaker 7>to the twenty first. Twenty eighteen. Siicon is already one

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01:01:28.599 --> 01:01:33.159
<v Speaker 7>of the planet's premiere skeptical conferences, where hundreds of critical

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01:01:33.199 --> 01:01:36.360
<v Speaker 7>thinkers come to Las Vegas, the City of Illusions, to

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01:01:36.400 --> 01:01:40.400
<v Speaker 7>hear from the leading lights of science and skepticism. For

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01:01:40.480 --> 01:01:44.119
<v Speaker 7>twenty eighteen, we want Sikon to be bigger than ever.

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01:01:44.800 --> 01:01:49.920
<v Speaker 7>We've even booked a bigger hotel. Come to Las Vegas

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01:01:49.920 --> 01:01:53.760
<v Speaker 7>at the Westgate Resort and Casino to see the brilliant

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01:01:53.800 --> 01:01:59.280
<v Speaker 7>and hilarious Stephen Fry on stage with Richard Dawkins and

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01:01:59.440 --> 01:02:03.360
<v Speaker 7>opening talk by Stephen PingER on the ideas behind his

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01:02:03.480 --> 01:02:08.920
<v Speaker 7>new book, Enlightenment Now, the triumphant return of James the

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01:02:09.039 --> 01:02:15.920
<v Speaker 7>Amazing Randy, plus New York Times science writer Carl Zimmer,

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01:02:16.480 --> 01:02:22.559
<v Speaker 7>psychologist and mimetics expert, Susan Blackmore, the Cybabe, Yvette Dontemont,

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01:02:23.039 --> 01:02:27.079
<v Speaker 7>virologist and advocate for science based medicine, Paul Offert, and

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01:02:27.280 --> 01:02:31.800
<v Speaker 7>many many more, along with comic musician George Rubb serving

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01:02:31.920 --> 01:02:35.880
<v Speaker 7>as Master of ceremonies, a magic show from Banachek, author

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01:02:35.920 --> 01:02:42.400
<v Speaker 7>book signings, and of course a Halloween costume party. It's

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01:02:42.480 --> 01:02:47.719
<v Speaker 7>true conspiracy theorists, quax peddling, fake medicine, and the deniers

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01:02:47.719 --> 01:02:52.599
<v Speaker 7>of evolution, climate change, and vaccine science are bigger threats

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01:02:52.639 --> 01:02:56.719
<v Speaker 7>than ever. With sikon twenty eighteen, Let's show them that

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01:02:56.760 --> 01:03:02.199
<v Speaker 7>they have just met their match. We'll see you in

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01:03:02.239 --> 01:03:05.360
<v Speaker 7>Las Vegas. For more information and to book your tickets,

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01:03:05.719 --> 01:03:11.960
<v Speaker 7>visit csiconference dot org that PSI Conference dot org.

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<v Speaker 2>Master Talk theme music is by Pete Stealing Monkeys. As always, sincerely,

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01:03:26.400 --> 01:03:27.280
<v Speaker 2>thank you for listening.

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01:04:06.719 --> 01:04:09.800
<v Speaker 3>Want to stay abreast of the latest from Skeptic magazine

1089
01:04:09.960 --> 01:04:14.360
<v Speaker 3>and the Skeptic Society. Want cutting edge skeptical articles delivered

1090
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<v Speaker 3>straight to your inbox every week, then subscribe to E Skeptic,

1091
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<v Speaker 3>the free electronic newsletter of the Skeptic Society. Visit skeptic

1092
01:04:24.199 --> 01:04:25.760
<v Speaker 3>dot com to sign up.

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01:04:31.159 --> 01:04:33.639
<v Speaker 2>I want you to turn this into a silver bullet.

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01:04:35.159 --> 01:04:40.280
<v Speaker 1>If you want a silver bullet. Okay, nicest piece of

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01:04:40.320 --> 01:04:42.440
<v Speaker 1>work I've ever done. I think I ought to be

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01:04:42.480 --> 01:04:43.239
<v Speaker 1>pretty accurate.

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01:04:45.039 --> 01:04:47.239
<v Speaker 3>Take you're gonna shoot a forty four bullet at anyway?

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01:04:48.280 --> 01:04:49.159
<v Speaker 4>Been in a silver.

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01:04:50.880 --> 01:04:51.480
<v Speaker 5>How about it?

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01:04:51.559 --> 01:04:51.760
<v Speaker 6>Will?

1101
01:04:51.920 --> 01:04:52.199
<v Speaker 4>We'll