1 00:00:04,960 --> 00:00:07,519 Speaker 1: This week's episode of the Tribecast is brought to you 2 00:00:07,559 --> 00:00:19,079 by the Texas Tribune Membership program. Hello and welcome to 3 00:00:19,120 --> 00:00:23,480 the Texas Tribune Tribcast for February tenth. I'm Eleanor Klibanoff, 4 00:00:23,800 --> 00:00:26,359 joined as always by Editor in chief Matthew Watkins. 5 00:00:26,359 --> 00:00:30,239 Speaker 2: Hello there, how's it going good? You know, enjoying the 6 00:00:30,280 --> 00:00:31,359 Winter Olympics. 7 00:00:31,640 --> 00:00:35,560 Speaker 1: Oh, all that entails huge Olympics heads over here? Are 8 00:00:35,560 --> 00:00:37,159 you in the Talk Olympics channel on Slack? 9 00:00:37,679 --> 00:00:40,560 Speaker 2: I am, but I have not chimed in yet. Same. 10 00:00:40,759 --> 00:00:42,479 Speaker 1: I feel like it's too embarrassing to be like in 11 00:00:42,520 --> 00:00:44,920 the middle of work, being like making it so obvious 12 00:00:44,960 --> 00:00:48,560 that I'm watching the Olympics, but you know there are 13 00:00:48,560 --> 00:00:52,960 on a different time zone. Well, as we've discussed frequently 14 00:00:52,960 --> 00:00:59,119 on the trip Cast, our podcast hosting demographic is pretty 15 00:00:59,159 --> 00:01:01,200 firmly in the millennium category. 16 00:01:01,280 --> 00:01:02,320 Speaker 2: We were once described as. 17 00:01:02,240 --> 00:01:06,920 Speaker 1: Being having being millennial funny, which was devastating to me. 18 00:01:07,200 --> 00:01:11,079 That is a compliment. Hurt really bad. But today, as 19 00:01:11,120 --> 00:01:15,200 we're going to be talking about sort of TikTok social 20 00:01:15,239 --> 00:01:19,000 media influencers, online outrage, how all of that is impacting 21 00:01:19,159 --> 00:01:23,079 the twenty twenty six primary elections. We are thankfully joined 22 00:01:23,120 --> 00:01:28,120 by two gen Z voices. Politics reporter Kayla Guo, Hey. 23 00:01:27,959 --> 00:01:30,640 Speaker 3: Thanks for being here as our happy to be gen 24 00:01:30,719 --> 00:01:31,560 Z correspondent. 25 00:01:31,680 --> 00:01:35,040 Speaker 1: Yes, that's me, yeah, and then democratic strategist and online 26 00:01:35,040 --> 00:01:38,200 content creator Olivia Juliana Olivia, thanks for being. 27 00:01:38,040 --> 00:01:39,920 Speaker 4: Here, Thank you for having me. 28 00:01:40,439 --> 00:01:45,560 Speaker 5: Yeah, kil did you write about the influencer role? Like, 29 00:01:45,640 --> 00:01:48,239 did you get selected for that story because you are 30 00:01:48,280 --> 00:01:48,599 gen Z? 31 00:01:51,680 --> 00:01:52,760 Speaker 3: Now I'm thinking about it. 32 00:01:53,280 --> 00:01:57,519 Speaker 1: We got to call Jasper and right now do I 33 00:01:57,560 --> 00:02:01,359 think it probably was due to your otherwise phenomenal coverage 34 00:02:01,400 --> 00:02:02,519 of that Senate race. 35 00:02:02,680 --> 00:02:03,640 Speaker 3: Yeah, what's up with that? 36 00:02:03,680 --> 00:02:06,640 Speaker 5: But okay, look, I just want to say that, like, 37 00:02:06,680 --> 00:02:08,439 I think you can write about all generations. 38 00:02:08,800 --> 00:02:12,039 Speaker 1: Yeah, you can write about boomers, you can write about 39 00:02:12,360 --> 00:02:16,919 the Silent generation, the greatest generation. But we do tap 40 00:02:17,000 --> 00:02:19,840 you to write about gen Z sometimes because it would 41 00:02:19,840 --> 00:02:24,240 be embarrassing otherwise for those of us who are, you know, 42 00:02:24,520 --> 00:02:25,280 a little bit older. 43 00:02:25,639 --> 00:02:27,199 Speaker 3: It's okay, you. 44 00:02:27,120 --> 00:02:27,599 Speaker 2: Know, I don't. 45 00:02:28,159 --> 00:02:30,840 Speaker 1: I am really really online though, so I really do 46 00:02:30,879 --> 00:02:31,280 think I could. 47 00:02:31,319 --> 00:02:31,960 Speaker 2: I could hack it. 48 00:02:33,319 --> 00:02:35,639 Speaker 1: Well, let's talk. Let's take a step back and talk 49 00:02:35,680 --> 00:02:37,759 about the story that you wrote. Kayla, This sort of 50 00:02:37,879 --> 00:02:41,800 drama that it bubbled up in this Democratic primary for Senate, 51 00:02:42,759 --> 00:02:44,240 and you know, I thought we're gonna take a step 52 00:02:44,240 --> 00:02:46,400 back and talk about this issue more broadly, because it's 53 00:02:46,439 --> 00:02:48,039 sort of a symptom maybe of. 54 00:02:48,000 --> 00:02:51,159 Speaker 3: A larger of a larger theme. But what happened here 55 00:02:52,000 --> 00:02:57,199 a lot I think it was last week last week 56 00:02:57,240 --> 00:03:00,840 on Monday. A content creator. She's Dallas. Her name is 57 00:03:00,879 --> 00:03:04,080 Morgan Thompson. She was previously a Tallarico supporter before Jasmine 58 00:03:04,080 --> 00:03:08,120 Crockett got into the race. She made a TikTok alleging 59 00:03:08,199 --> 00:03:11,120 that in a private conversation with her, James Talerico had 60 00:03:11,159 --> 00:03:14,000 referred to Colin Allred, who was a twenty twenty four 61 00:03:14,120 --> 00:03:18,039 sent a Democratic nominee who's in this race but dropped 62 00:03:18,080 --> 00:03:22,840 out as Crockett was getting in. She alleged that Talerico 63 00:03:22,960 --> 00:03:26,039 referred to him as a quote mediocre black man. 64 00:03:26,759 --> 00:03:28,000 Speaker 2: That video went viral. 65 00:03:29,039 --> 00:03:30,719 Speaker 3: She laid out some of the contexts of the lead 66 00:03:30,800 --> 00:03:33,240 up to the conversation and. 67 00:03:35,479 --> 00:03:36,879 Speaker 2: That on its. 68 00:03:36,719 --> 00:03:40,039 Speaker 3: Own would have been somewhat remarkable, like how big this 69 00:03:40,479 --> 00:03:44,319 video itself got. But then of course Colin Allred waded in, 70 00:03:44,439 --> 00:03:49,039 made his own selfie style direct to camera TikTok video 71 00:03:50,240 --> 00:03:54,960 in which he just like ripped into tall Ico and 72 00:03:55,280 --> 00:03:58,800 all but called him an outright racist indors Jasmine Crockett. 73 00:03:59,479 --> 00:04:01,479 And that is, of course, when it sort of became 74 00:04:01,560 --> 00:04:04,120 news for us, and when we wrote about that whole 75 00:04:04,159 --> 00:04:07,520 thing going down, and Talarico's camp took a while to 76 00:04:07,520 --> 00:04:10,599 respond that day, Talerico said it was a mischaracterization of 77 00:04:10,639 --> 00:04:13,680 what he had said. He had referred to Alread's campaigning 78 00:04:13,800 --> 00:04:17,120 as mediocre, but would never you know, attack him on 79 00:04:17,160 --> 00:04:20,839 the basis of race, is what his statement said. But 80 00:04:20,920 --> 00:04:23,759 that was really that whole blow up was kind of 81 00:04:23,800 --> 00:04:26,920 a culmination of what had been going on for weeks 82 00:04:27,240 --> 00:04:32,800 on x threads, TikTok instagram of just a lot of 83 00:04:32,839 --> 00:04:36,480 people chiming in with really strong takes one way or 84 00:04:36,480 --> 00:04:39,759 another on this race and becoming sort of a battle 85 00:04:39,800 --> 00:04:42,240 between these two camps, even though the candidates themselves have 86 00:04:42,399 --> 00:04:44,879 sort of stayed out of the fray. And so this 87 00:04:45,000 --> 00:04:48,240 was really just like the blow up and you know, 88 00:04:48,399 --> 00:04:53,120 peak of this long simmering hostility before. 89 00:04:52,839 --> 00:04:55,720 Speaker 1: We started get into that you know, broader context. I mean, Olivia, 90 00:04:55,759 --> 00:04:59,480 you were watching this unfold, what were you making of this? 91 00:04:59,560 --> 00:05:04,439 As a may I say, very online democrat. 92 00:05:04,879 --> 00:05:08,759 Speaker 4: Yeah, you know. I My inclination obviously always is to 93 00:05:08,800 --> 00:05:11,160 look at things as a very online Democrat. But I 94 00:05:11,319 --> 00:05:14,759 was also looking at this through the lens of I 95 00:05:14,800 --> 00:05:18,240 am a twenty three year old voter who lives here 96 00:05:18,279 --> 00:05:20,000 in the state of Texas and who will have to 97 00:05:20,040 --> 00:05:24,000 cast a vote in this primary election, and who, like 98 00:05:24,079 --> 00:05:26,839 I've known all three of these people in this story 99 00:05:27,000 --> 00:05:30,199 since twenty twenty one, when I started at like seventeen 100 00:05:30,279 --> 00:05:33,839 years old, and so seeing all of this play out, 101 00:05:34,079 --> 00:05:38,240 I had many thoughts. First thing was, if you just 102 00:05:38,360 --> 00:05:42,680 flashed back to the twenty twenty four Senate campaign, seeing 103 00:05:42,720 --> 00:05:46,079 these two people James Talerico and Jasmon Crockett, who were 104 00:05:46,199 --> 00:05:50,680 like very visible surrogates for Colin all Red, now entrenched 105 00:05:50,720 --> 00:05:55,160 in this I would almost say proxy war through these 106 00:05:55,279 --> 00:05:58,399 different online factions and not through the things that came 107 00:05:58,399 --> 00:06:02,800 out of their own mouth. It was very different than 108 00:06:03,800 --> 00:06:08,600 what we've seen in Texas before because of the severity 109 00:06:08,800 --> 00:06:12,240 and the volume of it. There was very similar chatter 110 00:06:12,360 --> 00:06:16,079 to this in division like this during the twenty twenty 111 00:06:16,160 --> 00:06:20,360 four Democratic primary between Roland Gutierres and Colinel Red, but 112 00:06:20,439 --> 00:06:23,120 it was much more insulated to people who were very 113 00:06:23,240 --> 00:06:26,839 hyper online in Texas whereas this, and I think it's 114 00:06:26,839 --> 00:06:31,240 because Jasmine Crockett is such a renowned national figure really 115 00:06:31,319 --> 00:06:36,199 broke out into like national online conversation, and I think 116 00:06:36,199 --> 00:06:38,560 that's because of her, but also because James Talerico is 117 00:06:38,600 --> 00:06:40,480 a social media star in his own right. Like I 118 00:06:40,519 --> 00:06:42,720 don't think I can name any other state rep in 119 00:06:42,720 --> 00:06:46,120 the country who has over a million followers on Instagram. 120 00:06:46,519 --> 00:06:48,920 And so I'm just kind of watching all of this unfold, 121 00:06:49,040 --> 00:06:53,279 and the two main thoughts that I had were, God, 122 00:06:53,319 --> 00:06:56,120 it's always Texas, isn't it. It's always Texas. 123 00:06:58,000 --> 00:06:58,680 Speaker 2: Business, Yes. 124 00:07:00,480 --> 00:07:02,680 Speaker 4: And the secondary thing was, I think it's just a 125 00:07:02,720 --> 00:07:07,160 reminder of how powerful social media has become an influencing 126 00:07:07,160 --> 00:07:12,120 political conversation, because even if you know these these posts 127 00:07:12,160 --> 00:07:17,480 aren't reaching a significant percentage of primary election voters, you know, 128 00:07:17,560 --> 00:07:20,399 the Texas Tribune is reaching a pretty significant percentage of 129 00:07:20,639 --> 00:07:23,959 primary electorate voters. And now, like you all have written 130 00:07:24,040 --> 00:07:27,439 articles about this, so like it is something that's breaking through, 131 00:07:27,680 --> 00:07:30,600 whether it be on social media or because of the 132 00:07:30,639 --> 00:07:33,959 traditional press coverage that comes from these incidents happening on 133 00:07:34,000 --> 00:07:35,079 social media. 134 00:07:35,199 --> 00:07:37,000 Speaker 2: Olivia, I want to ask. 135 00:07:38,160 --> 00:07:41,920 Speaker 5: You, I appreciate you saying that I'm curious about the 136 00:07:41,920 --> 00:07:45,240 Text Tribune reaching a large number of voters. I'm curious though, 137 00:07:46,480 --> 00:07:49,439 as someone who I feel like is smart enough to 138 00:07:49,519 --> 00:07:52,279 observe this and be like, Wow, this is really important 139 00:07:52,279 --> 00:07:54,279 and meaningful and says a lot, not just about this 140 00:07:54,480 --> 00:07:57,240 race but where politics is going. But maybe someone who's 141 00:07:57,279 --> 00:08:00,800 not smart enough to know exactly what it means. I'm 142 00:08:00,839 --> 00:08:06,839 curious whether you think this is a bad sign or 143 00:08:06,879 --> 00:08:08,360 a good sign for the primary. 144 00:08:08,480 --> 00:08:11,160 Speaker 1: Do you mean, like the average person who comes across. 145 00:08:10,839 --> 00:08:13,720 Speaker 5: It, Well, just that this is happening, right, Because what 146 00:08:13,759 --> 00:08:15,839 you're I'm talking about myself not being. 147 00:08:15,720 --> 00:08:19,639 Speaker 1: Smart enough to like this is happening is something. 148 00:08:19,759 --> 00:08:24,720 Speaker 5: But yeah, I don't. Yeah, And I think what I'm 149 00:08:24,759 --> 00:08:28,839 what I'm trying to gauge here is a it's a 150 00:08:28,879 --> 00:08:31,720 sign of division and like some hard feelings in this 151 00:08:32,360 --> 00:08:34,039 and I can see how that could be frustrating for 152 00:08:34,120 --> 00:08:36,120 someone who cares about the party and where it's going. 153 00:08:36,399 --> 00:08:39,519 On the other side hand, it suggests a level of 154 00:08:39,559 --> 00:08:43,039 engagement in this race and a level of like emotional 155 00:08:43,519 --> 00:08:46,720 excitement and feeling about these two candidates that is pretty 156 00:08:46,840 --> 00:08:51,360 rare in Texas, at least for a statewide race, and 157 00:08:52,039 --> 00:08:56,080 you know, I could make the argument of, like, the 158 00:08:56,080 --> 00:09:00,799 fact that these fights are happening is an indication that 159 00:09:00,960 --> 00:09:03,600 there's a level of excitement that could be really good 160 00:09:03,600 --> 00:09:04,639 for Democrats. 161 00:09:04,240 --> 00:09:04,799 Speaker 2: All the trust. 162 00:09:05,519 --> 00:09:08,279 Speaker 5: Yeah, well, yeah exactly. I mean, how do you sort 163 00:09:08,279 --> 00:09:13,039 of evaluate that calculus? 164 00:09:13,600 --> 00:09:16,240 Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, I think I think this being a 165 00:09:16,759 --> 00:09:19,600 good or bad thing, It really depends on which which 166 00:09:19,679 --> 00:09:22,120 candidate you are and which campaign you're in. You know, 167 00:09:22,159 --> 00:09:24,840 if you're Collin all Read, this is the most social 168 00:09:24,879 --> 00:09:27,519 media engagement I think he's gotten. He was the Senate 169 00:09:27,559 --> 00:09:31,200 candidate in twenty twenty four, Peace and love, you know 170 00:09:31,799 --> 00:09:37,960 much respec to Harpressman already. You know, if you're James Tallerico, 171 00:09:38,399 --> 00:09:41,159 this is a really bad situation for you to be in, 172 00:09:41,240 --> 00:09:45,360 because he surged in this primary very early on. You know, 173 00:09:45,759 --> 00:09:48,799 his largest fundraising day of that quarter was the day 174 00:09:48,799 --> 00:09:52,240 that Jasmine Crockett launched her campaign, which I think is 175 00:09:52,240 --> 00:09:54,759 a pretty clear indicator that, you know, she's she's a 176 00:09:54,840 --> 00:09:57,960 very polarizing figure, and that kind of pushed a lot 177 00:09:58,000 --> 00:10:00,720 of people who may not necessarily like her style of 178 00:10:00,759 --> 00:10:05,919 politics to inadvertently support James Talerico. But you know, if 179 00:10:05,919 --> 00:10:09,360 you're a Jasmine Crockett. You're someone who you were down 180 00:10:09,399 --> 00:10:11,639 at a couple of polls. You haven't been able to 181 00:10:11,679 --> 00:10:16,159 match taler Rico's fundraising numbers, you haven't been able to 182 00:10:16,200 --> 00:10:18,360 put up as many TV ads or do as many 183 00:10:18,360 --> 00:10:23,919 advis Like now you have a lot of organic, unpaid 184 00:10:24,320 --> 00:10:30,200 media attention happening amongst highly engaged people who live inside 185 00:10:30,240 --> 00:10:34,360 of Texas and outside of Texas, which is important for 186 00:10:34,519 --> 00:10:37,559 you know, your volunteer base, it's important for phone banking, 187 00:10:37,639 --> 00:10:41,399 it's important for door knocking, and most importantly, it's happening 188 00:10:41,960 --> 00:10:44,320 a week two weeks out from the start of early voting. 189 00:10:45,159 --> 00:10:47,519 And so you know, as all of this has happened, 190 00:10:47,559 --> 00:10:51,720 she's gained momentum and tall Rico has lost it. And 191 00:10:51,960 --> 00:10:54,879 you know, if you're him, you already have the disadvantage 192 00:10:54,919 --> 00:10:57,360 of not only are you having to spend money to 193 00:10:58,679 --> 00:11:01,360 tell people who you are are, but also to bring 194 00:11:01,399 --> 00:11:03,519 people out to vote, whereas her name idea is high 195 00:11:03,639 --> 00:11:06,840 enough the people already know. So now, like all of 196 00:11:06,840 --> 00:11:09,960 this I think has been really good for the energy 197 00:11:09,960 --> 00:11:14,000 of her campaign because I think it is really in 198 00:11:14,080 --> 00:11:16,559 vague well, I don't think I know from the conversations 199 00:11:16,559 --> 00:11:20,120 I've had with pro Jasmin Crockett influencers, like this is 200 00:11:20,639 --> 00:11:24,120 very very energizing to them, and like they are ready 201 00:11:24,200 --> 00:11:28,320 to like hit the pavement to help her win this 202 00:11:28,399 --> 00:11:31,840 primary versus a lot of the pro James Tallerico influencers 203 00:11:31,879 --> 00:11:35,039 who I know are a little bit more hesitant to 204 00:11:35,440 --> 00:11:38,759 post positive things about his campaign that they otherwise would 205 00:11:38,759 --> 00:11:43,759 have because of how controversial this primary has become. Kayla. 206 00:11:43,840 --> 00:11:46,639 Speaker 1: I mean, these are people who have been they as 207 00:11:46,720 --> 00:11:48,559 you noted in your story, right, they both sort of 208 00:11:48,919 --> 00:11:52,919 rose to prominence through going viral, through like grabbing these moments. 209 00:11:53,120 --> 00:11:55,759 But I would argue in like sort of very different ways, right, 210 00:11:55,799 --> 00:11:58,720 I mean, I think the repose of Crockett is like 211 00:11:58,799 --> 00:12:03,480 known for these like very sort of huge flashpoint moments, 212 00:12:03,559 --> 00:12:07,720 like sort of like the clapback style really like aggressively 213 00:12:07,759 --> 00:12:11,480 calling out Republicans and you know, and then tell Rico 214 00:12:11,639 --> 00:12:14,559 is sort of doing this more you know, the pastor 215 00:12:14,600 --> 00:12:18,320 the peace and love thing, the you know running this 216 00:12:18,440 --> 00:12:23,000 through this are you like slightly more low key god 217 00:12:23,159 --> 00:12:29,200 and good manners pitch? I mean, how this has all 218 00:12:29,200 --> 00:12:31,840 played out seems sort of in line with that. I 219 00:12:31,840 --> 00:12:34,639 think people the tall Rico thing. Part of why I 220 00:12:34,639 --> 00:12:38,519 think this broke out of containment is like this allegation 221 00:12:38,679 --> 00:12:42,000 is so at odds with his public persona. I mean, 222 00:12:42,519 --> 00:12:45,759 how much of this is just a consequence of all 223 00:12:45,799 --> 00:12:48,799 of this being everyone involved being very online. 224 00:12:49,039 --> 00:12:51,200 Speaker 3: I mean I think, yeah, I think the fact that 225 00:12:51,840 --> 00:12:53,919 there has been so much just scurse. Like Olivia said one, 226 00:12:54,639 --> 00:12:59,360 both of them have such huge profiles, obviously Jasmine Crockett 227 00:12:59,399 --> 00:13:02,679 more than Teleco, but are so known online. And I 228 00:13:02,679 --> 00:13:07,759 think people do form somewhat like parasocial relationships with anyone 229 00:13:07,919 --> 00:13:10,559 who they think is like fighting for them or is 230 00:13:10,600 --> 00:13:14,480 aligned with them. Is this breakout star in politics that 231 00:13:14,519 --> 00:13:17,240 they maybe can we'll get to vote for one day? 232 00:13:17,279 --> 00:13:21,840 And yeah, I think people like really latch onto figures 233 00:13:21,879 --> 00:13:24,960 like Jasmine Crockett, like James Halerico, given their you know, 234 00:13:25,399 --> 00:13:28,120 how visible and online they are. And I do think 235 00:13:28,120 --> 00:13:34,399 that that has deepened sort of like this particular conflict 236 00:13:34,480 --> 00:13:37,519 and made it all the more you know, hostile and 237 00:13:37,600 --> 00:13:39,360 people in trench in both camps. 238 00:13:40,639 --> 00:13:44,600 Speaker 5: But Olivia, you were quoted in Kyla's story saying we 239 00:13:44,639 --> 00:13:46,440 would all do a lot of good if every once 240 00:13:46,440 --> 00:13:49,559 in a while we realized social media is not real life, right, 241 00:13:49,919 --> 00:13:54,120 And then you also said earlier a little surprised me, 242 00:13:54,240 --> 00:13:56,440 Like one of the ideas that this is a concern 243 00:13:56,519 --> 00:13:59,799 is that it has broken through into traditional media like 244 00:14:00,320 --> 00:14:03,000 US or the Associated Press or all the other media 245 00:14:03,000 --> 00:14:04,919 that has written about this in recent times. 246 00:14:05,039 --> 00:14:06,840 Speaker 2: And I guess, like I'm a little. 247 00:14:06,639 --> 00:14:11,519 Speaker 5: Bit surprised to hear that, right, because I mean, I 248 00:14:11,240 --> 00:14:14,279 I you know, many of the people on social media, 249 00:14:14,639 --> 00:14:17,159 myself included, agree that maybe it would be good for 250 00:14:17,279 --> 00:14:20,120 us to like at times turn it off a little bit. 251 00:14:20,240 --> 00:14:22,559 But I mean, I feel like one of the things 252 00:14:22,639 --> 00:14:26,600 that this campaign is testing is the idea of, like 253 00:14:27,440 --> 00:14:32,279 is social media the dominant sort of political like place 254 00:14:32,360 --> 00:14:35,039 for conversation right now in a way that like it 255 00:14:35,080 --> 00:14:37,840 doesn't matter if it's being discussed everywhere, if it's being 256 00:14:37,879 --> 00:14:41,120 discussed on social media, it makes a big difference. And 257 00:14:41,159 --> 00:14:43,799 I mean another part of this is just there's been 258 00:14:43,879 --> 00:14:46,480 some reporting, some concerns out there right now about the 259 00:14:46,559 --> 00:14:50,720 lack of spending by Jasmine Crockett on you know, television 260 00:14:50,799 --> 00:14:52,720 the most of the traditional place where you sort of 261 00:14:52,720 --> 00:14:54,080 get your ads out right now. 262 00:14:54,559 --> 00:14:56,879 Speaker 2: And I'm curious whether you think. 263 00:14:56,639 --> 00:15:01,240 Speaker 5: Like that matters at all, Like, do do we are 264 00:15:01,279 --> 00:15:07,000 we all sort of still judging this by the wrong metrics. 265 00:15:07,159 --> 00:15:11,000 Speaker 4: Yeah, I think I think in a post twenty twenty 266 00:15:11,039 --> 00:15:13,879 four world, I think everyone is very quick to make 267 00:15:14,399 --> 00:15:18,320 snap judgments about social media and how it's effective or 268 00:15:18,320 --> 00:15:20,240 how it's ineffective. I've seen a lot of people give 269 00:15:20,679 --> 00:15:25,159 like really haphazard you know, analysis about well, what should 270 00:15:25,159 --> 00:15:28,120 we do instead, and like, I actually don't think that 271 00:15:28,240 --> 00:15:32,159 this race is the best test on you know, is 272 00:15:32,159 --> 00:15:35,240 it worth it to spend on traditional advertising versus social 273 00:15:35,240 --> 00:15:38,200 media because we don't have we do not have two 274 00:15:38,279 --> 00:15:41,440 traditional you know, candidates going up against each other, Like 275 00:15:41,639 --> 00:15:46,120 Jasmine Crockett could spend zero dollars in this race and 276 00:15:46,240 --> 00:15:49,720 still have more name ID than James Tellergo. So if 277 00:15:49,759 --> 00:15:52,600 even if you don't see anything on social media or 278 00:15:52,679 --> 00:15:56,039 on television and you go into that voting booth during 279 00:15:56,039 --> 00:15:59,200 the primary election, there's still going to be a significantly 280 00:15:59,279 --> 00:16:01,840 larger number of people who know who she is who 281 00:16:01,879 --> 00:16:04,879 have no idea who he is. And so I actually 282 00:16:04,919 --> 00:16:07,000 don't think that this race is the best place to 283 00:16:07,120 --> 00:16:10,360 kind of draw that conclusion. What I will say is 284 00:16:10,960 --> 00:16:16,519 I think that their electoral theories of change very closely 285 00:16:16,600 --> 00:16:21,600 mirror their social media strategies. Jasmine Crockett is her arguments 286 00:16:21,639 --> 00:16:23,399 have consistently been about, you know, we need to turn 287 00:16:23,440 --> 00:16:26,360 out base voters. We need to energize the base of 288 00:16:26,440 --> 00:16:28,840 people here in Texas who are not voting or who 289 00:16:28,840 --> 00:16:31,320 have voted before and have chosen not to vote in 290 00:16:31,320 --> 00:16:34,360 twenty twenty four or in the you know, twenty twenty 291 00:16:34,360 --> 00:16:37,840 five down ballot elections. Versus James Salarico, whose argument is, 292 00:16:37,879 --> 00:16:39,159 you know, we need to have a big tent, we 293 00:16:39,200 --> 00:16:41,720 need to bring it independence, we need to persuade people. 294 00:16:42,200 --> 00:16:45,240 And I think the social media content and spaces that 295 00:16:45,279 --> 00:16:47,480 they've been in and the people who have been speaking 296 00:16:47,480 --> 00:16:50,639 out in support of them kind of mirror this strategy 297 00:16:50,679 --> 00:16:53,679 really well. You see Jasmine doing a lot of social 298 00:16:53,720 --> 00:16:57,000 media collaborations or being defended a lot by people like 299 00:16:57,399 --> 00:17:01,240 Elizabeth Booker, Houston, Kenny wald In, Like, these are people 300 00:17:01,320 --> 00:17:07,880 who are really known for being hardline democratic political content 301 00:17:07,920 --> 00:17:12,880 creators who are pretty decently well known among a large 302 00:17:13,880 --> 00:17:17,039 a large number of primary voters generally around the country. 303 00:17:17,079 --> 00:17:20,319 You know, these are political influencers. Versus James Talerico. You know, 304 00:17:20,400 --> 00:17:22,839 you see him and he's doing more of his own 305 00:17:22,880 --> 00:17:25,559 content creation stuff, but he's also reaching out to more 306 00:17:25,720 --> 00:17:28,759 non traditional political spaces. You know, he was on Joe 307 00:17:28,839 --> 00:17:32,200 Rogan last year. You know, he went on Ezra Clent's 308 00:17:32,240 --> 00:17:35,440 podcast to talk about Jesus. Like, he's doing a lot 309 00:17:35,480 --> 00:17:40,119 of different things that you don't see candidates traditionally doing 310 00:17:40,160 --> 00:17:43,039 when they're trying to use social media in a political way. 311 00:17:44,359 --> 00:17:48,680 And I think that the true test will come not 312 00:17:48,759 --> 00:17:51,599 necessarily from is she spending money on TV or she's 313 00:17:51,640 --> 00:17:53,839 not spending on money on TV. I think a true 314 00:17:53,880 --> 00:17:58,680 test will be which one of these social media theories works. 315 00:17:59,160 --> 00:18:02,680 Is it appealing to the base of online primary voters 316 00:18:03,039 --> 00:18:05,720 who you know are going to show up to the primary, 317 00:18:05,759 --> 00:18:09,519 who you know are highly engaged, or is it trying 318 00:18:09,559 --> 00:18:13,359 to add people to the primary electorate and persuade people 319 00:18:13,359 --> 00:18:16,920 to become Democratic primary voters who traditionally may not have 320 00:18:16,960 --> 00:18:18,839 been involved in those elections. 321 00:18:19,599 --> 00:18:23,079 Speaker 1: I mean, looking ahead to the general, where one of 322 00:18:23,119 --> 00:18:26,519 these two people will inevitably be running against one of 323 00:18:27,000 --> 00:18:30,920 two other people, maybe current Senator John Cornyn or Attorney 324 00:18:30,920 --> 00:18:35,240 General Ken Paxton. I mean, how does and how does 325 00:18:35,279 --> 00:18:37,400 all of this shift when we start looking at a general. 326 00:18:37,440 --> 00:18:40,559 I mean this we've currently democratic infighting that will all 327 00:18:40,599 --> 00:18:44,559 sort of miraculously disappear on March fourth and we'll all 328 00:18:44,559 --> 00:18:49,160 go back to being friends. And then now suddenly you 329 00:18:49,200 --> 00:18:51,559 are trying to reach a much wider swath of the 330 00:18:51,599 --> 00:18:54,799 electorate with a much typically like I think, more moderate 331 00:18:56,359 --> 00:19:01,000 platform on a lot more sort of different venues. So 332 00:19:01,400 --> 00:19:06,680 I'm curious, like how you see this shifting the campaign 333 00:19:06,720 --> 00:19:09,079 strategy shifting going into a general. 334 00:19:10,960 --> 00:19:13,680 Speaker 4: Well, uh, you know, first and foremost, I think it's 335 00:19:13,680 --> 00:19:16,720 gonna be really dependent on who the Republican candidate is 336 00:19:17,359 --> 00:19:20,559 because the social media strategy of whoever it is is 337 00:19:20,599 --> 00:19:24,440 going to be very different. Then, you know, like John 338 00:19:24,480 --> 00:19:27,359 corn and social media strategy is I feel, and in 339 00:19:27,440 --> 00:19:29,680 the instance of him, it's very much so you cannot 340 00:19:29,680 --> 00:19:33,000 teach an old dog Nutrix. Like it is very clear 341 00:19:33,160 --> 00:19:35,720 he is not comfortable with social media. His team does 342 00:19:35,759 --> 00:19:36,880 not really understand it. 343 00:19:37,599 --> 00:19:37,759 Speaker 1: Uh. 344 00:19:38,039 --> 00:19:41,079 Speaker 4: You know, Wesley Hunt is doing his best. He's he's 345 00:19:41,160 --> 00:19:43,920 trying to lean into the rage bait content of it. 346 00:19:44,039 --> 00:19:47,000 But you know, Ken Paxton, ultimately, when it comes to 347 00:19:47,079 --> 00:19:50,200 social media, I would say that Ken Paxton and Jazz 348 00:19:50,240 --> 00:19:54,000 mccrockett are probably like a perfect inverse of each other 349 00:19:54,599 --> 00:19:58,119 when it comes to engaging and enraging people on social 350 00:19:58,160 --> 00:20:01,400 media and getting a reaction. And and you know, social 351 00:20:01,400 --> 00:20:05,720 media algorithms don't measure feelings. They don't know how you 352 00:20:05,880 --> 00:20:08,720 feel or what your opinion is when you make a post. 353 00:20:09,119 --> 00:20:13,200 All that it measures is velocity and volume. And so 354 00:20:13,559 --> 00:20:16,880 if you're someone like Ken Paxon or Jasmin Crockett, who 355 00:20:16,920 --> 00:20:20,519 is known for getting very strong reactions out of people, 356 00:20:20,880 --> 00:20:23,440 when you make a post on social media, you're likely 357 00:20:23,480 --> 00:20:26,240 to get that strong reaction from people on the left 358 00:20:26,519 --> 00:20:29,440 and on the right. And when you get that combination 359 00:20:29,799 --> 00:20:33,400 of reaction from both sides, that can catapult you to 360 00:20:33,480 --> 00:20:36,799 reach those people on the periphery who are not necessarily political. 361 00:20:37,160 --> 00:20:40,279 And those people on the periphery are the ones that 362 00:20:40,559 --> 00:20:42,920 are the reason why Donald Trump won the twenty twenty 363 00:20:42,960 --> 00:20:46,279 four election because they were getting reached in those spaces. 364 00:20:46,640 --> 00:20:48,200 So I think if this were going to be a 365 00:20:48,240 --> 00:20:53,400 true like brawl in non traditional voters who are getting 366 00:20:53,400 --> 00:20:57,319 their information on social media, the Ken Paxton Jasmin crocket lineup, 367 00:20:57,400 --> 00:21:00,000 I think we are going to see a social media 368 00:21:00,079 --> 00:21:03,440 be a war waged in this state you've never ever 369 00:21:03,480 --> 00:21:07,519 seen before. I genuinely believe this could be like presidential 370 00:21:07,640 --> 00:21:10,279 level engagement numbers from these two just because of how 371 00:21:10,359 --> 00:21:14,279 polarizing and cutthroat they both really are, you know, Versus 372 00:21:14,279 --> 00:21:17,680 if it's someone like James Tallerco, that's just not his style. 373 00:21:17,799 --> 00:21:19,720 Like you're I don't think you're ever gonna see James 374 00:21:19,759 --> 00:21:25,440 taal Erco call Ken Paxton and an adulterist fraud, which, 375 00:21:25,519 --> 00:21:29,000 like frankly he should, but like it's just I don't 376 00:21:29,039 --> 00:21:31,119 think the engagement is going to be the same now. 377 00:21:31,160 --> 00:21:33,079 I do think that there are a lot of people 378 00:21:33,240 --> 00:21:38,119 out there who are these more you know, mild mannered, uh, 379 00:21:38,720 --> 00:21:44,400 moderate voter moderate independence traditionally like Reagan Romney Republicans who 380 00:21:44,440 --> 00:21:47,720 do exist in Texas, who probably would vote for John 381 00:21:47,799 --> 00:21:52,559 Cornyan in a primary, who if Ken Paxon is the nominee, Uh, 382 00:21:52,599 --> 00:21:55,720 there's a really strong chance that they could end up 383 00:21:55,799 --> 00:21:58,960 voting for James Talerco. I think the only person in 384 00:21:59,000 --> 00:22:02,880 this scenario who really is a wild card is Wesley 385 00:22:02,960 --> 00:22:06,480 Hunt if for some reason he wins the primary, which 386 00:22:06,559 --> 00:22:10,000 I do not find to be particularly likely. I think 387 00:22:10,000 --> 00:22:14,079 that that really is the only unknown scenario of how 388 00:22:14,119 --> 00:22:17,599 this is going to play out on social media before. 389 00:22:17,319 --> 00:22:17,680 Speaker 2: We move on. 390 00:22:17,720 --> 00:22:19,079 Speaker 1: I do just want to take a quick break to 391 00:22:19,119 --> 00:22:21,799 say that Tribcast is made possible by members of the 392 00:22:21,839 --> 00:22:26,200 Texas Tribune this election season. Help ensure every Texan has 393 00:22:26,240 --> 00:22:29,559 access to trusted information about what's on the ballot and 394 00:22:29,599 --> 00:22:33,359 why it matters. Together, we can help Texans vote with confidence. 395 00:22:33,920 --> 00:22:38,960 Join us at Texastribune dot org slash donate. I mean, 396 00:22:39,000 --> 00:22:41,160 I do want to sort of revisit this idea of 397 00:22:41,799 --> 00:22:44,200 just these I think in many ways and this is 398 00:22:44,200 --> 00:22:49,039 not a unique thought, like the Republican and Democratic primaries 399 00:22:49,079 --> 00:22:51,799 in this race are sort of, like you said, in 400 00:22:51,880 --> 00:22:54,559 verses of each other. Right, You've got a like polarizing 401 00:22:55,079 --> 00:23:00,680 really not to undermine either candidates sort of power, but 402 00:23:00,720 --> 00:23:04,680 like polarizing performers versus these sort of people casting themselves 403 00:23:04,680 --> 00:23:10,599 more as statesman's style, you know, at least moderate in tone, 404 00:23:10,799 --> 00:23:15,599 if not in sort of political ideology. Kayla, I mean 405 00:23:16,759 --> 00:23:20,240 we have no idea what the you know, which two 406 00:23:20,279 --> 00:23:22,079 pieces of this quadront are going to end up with 407 00:23:22,119 --> 00:23:24,880 each other and with the Wesley Hunt piece of this 408 00:23:24,960 --> 00:23:28,440 as well. What is your sense You've talked to a 409 00:23:28,480 --> 00:23:30,720 lot of voters, You've talked a lot of campaign consultants, 410 00:23:30,759 --> 00:23:34,160 like what are the bets everyone is sort of make. 411 00:23:34,240 --> 00:23:36,519 I don't mean the predictions. I mean, like, what are 412 00:23:36,519 --> 00:23:41,519 the different sort of personalities that we're investing in and 413 00:23:41,559 --> 00:23:44,039 sort of gambling on what voters want here? 414 00:23:44,880 --> 00:23:47,640 Speaker 3: I mean, I think what you'll hear consistently excuse me, 415 00:23:47,759 --> 00:23:51,000 is that just like people don't know James Talerco and 416 00:23:52,119 --> 00:23:54,599 you know that has been a big challenge for him. 417 00:23:54,640 --> 00:23:59,000 But but I think exactly as Olivia said, like in 418 00:23:59,039 --> 00:24:04,359 a reflection of Jasmin Crockett and Tall Rico's different approaches 419 00:24:04,359 --> 00:24:07,039 and theories of how to win statewide, I think both 420 00:24:07,039 --> 00:24:10,359 of them will point you to, you know, what they 421 00:24:10,400 --> 00:24:15,079 think voters want is of course they think themselves. I think, 422 00:24:15,160 --> 00:24:17,319 you know, Jasmonin Crockett will talk a lot about people 423 00:24:17,359 --> 00:24:19,799 who like are watching her on the front lines of 424 00:24:19,920 --> 00:24:22,119 Washington now, who know that she's going to show up 425 00:24:22,119 --> 00:24:25,359 for them and fight for them and deliver for them 426 00:24:25,359 --> 00:24:27,519 in the way that she has been in Congress, and 427 00:24:27,559 --> 00:24:30,759 they want someone who'll She'll tell you that they want 428 00:24:30,799 --> 00:24:33,160 someone who is like fired up and will fire them up. 429 00:24:33,759 --> 00:24:35,440 I think Talla Rica's camp, on the other hand, will 430 00:24:35,480 --> 00:24:39,519 point you to like a lot of disaffected independent and 431 00:24:39,559 --> 00:24:42,880 Republican voters who are just like tired of the division 432 00:24:43,759 --> 00:24:47,039 and the polarization and the fight, and like the social 433 00:24:47,079 --> 00:24:51,279 media division and misinformation that is like pushed by algorithms 434 00:24:51,880 --> 00:24:54,359 and looking for someone who is like normal and willing 435 00:24:54,400 --> 00:24:57,880 to like bring people together. I think when I've gone 436 00:24:57,880 --> 00:24:59,519 to Jasmin Crockett's events, you know, it's a lot of 437 00:24:59,559 --> 00:25:02,720 people who really really admire her for her you know, 438 00:25:03,200 --> 00:25:06,559 being a fighter, for being willing to like say whatever 439 00:25:06,640 --> 00:25:10,279 even if it makes other people upset. At Tarrico's events, 440 00:25:10,279 --> 00:25:12,200 I have met a lot of Republican voters or like 441 00:25:12,519 --> 00:25:16,200 formerly Republican voters who are now looking for something different 442 00:25:16,240 --> 00:25:19,160 and are very much into, you know, his sort of 443 00:25:19,680 --> 00:25:23,359 inverse message of like we need to come together enough, 444 00:25:24,079 --> 00:25:26,640 lower the temperature, you know, like it might be entertaining, 445 00:25:26,680 --> 00:25:29,240 but like it feels terrible to be constantly in this 446 00:25:29,319 --> 00:25:31,079 state of political fight. 447 00:25:32,559 --> 00:25:35,799 Speaker 5: I don't think we can talk about this though, without 448 00:25:35,960 --> 00:25:39,039 getting into the conversations around race that have come up 449 00:25:39,160 --> 00:25:43,400 in this right this idea that I mean, part of 450 00:25:43,599 --> 00:25:46,960 James Tallerico's pitch is that he is a more viable 451 00:25:47,480 --> 00:25:50,640 general election candidate for all the reasons that you described, 452 00:25:51,599 --> 00:25:56,480 that he can win people over that Texas is not 453 00:25:57,119 --> 00:26:05,039 ready to elect someone as confrontational as Jasmine Crockett. This, 454 00:26:05,279 --> 00:26:08,319 of course touches on some topics that are very fraught 455 00:26:08,599 --> 00:26:11,920 and complicated, right, And people will point out that issues 456 00:26:11,960 --> 00:26:16,359 of electability and things like that are often used against 457 00:26:17,839 --> 00:26:23,440 black candidates, particularly black women. And it feels like taller Ico, 458 00:26:23,640 --> 00:26:27,799 I mean, Olivia, you sort of talked about how like 459 00:26:27,920 --> 00:26:31,319 some of the supporters have some of his supporters have 460 00:26:31,359 --> 00:26:33,960 maybe been more hesitant to speak out in his favor 461 00:26:34,079 --> 00:26:37,759 out of concerns about blowback and everything like that, perhaps 462 00:26:37,799 --> 00:26:40,759 for this particular reason, but there is also a very 463 00:26:40,920 --> 00:26:44,920 large segment of people talking about this race who are 464 00:26:44,920 --> 00:26:49,079 saying the Democratic Party cannot get into this situation where 465 00:26:49,119 --> 00:26:52,400 you cannot you know, talk about winning the general election, 466 00:26:52,440 --> 00:26:55,680 where you cannot talk about electability and all those different topics. 467 00:26:56,839 --> 00:26:59,440 There's you know, a theory of the case that a 468 00:26:59,680 --> 00:27:02,920 like focus on race and an unwillingness to you know, 469 00:27:03,039 --> 00:27:07,759 criticize candidates of color over any particular issue was part 470 00:27:07,799 --> 00:27:10,119 of what turned off a lot of like moderate voters 471 00:27:10,240 --> 00:27:13,519 in the first place. How do you see this conversation 472 00:27:13,640 --> 00:27:17,000 playing out and do you think this criticism against Taller 473 00:27:17,039 --> 00:27:20,920 Rico or maybe more specifically, some of Tallerico's supporters, is 474 00:27:20,960 --> 00:27:22,400 a fair one. 475 00:27:23,839 --> 00:27:27,079 Speaker 4: I think that first and foremost, I think that the 476 00:27:27,160 --> 00:27:33,400 people who have really negatively polarized this conversation most, most 477 00:27:33,440 --> 00:27:36,400 often than not, are people who do not live inside 478 00:27:36,400 --> 00:27:39,079 the state of Texas, people who do not vote here. 479 00:27:40,079 --> 00:27:42,720 And based off the conversations that I have had with 480 00:27:42,839 --> 00:27:47,000 people who support Jasmin Crockett, who support James Talerico, both 481 00:27:47,039 --> 00:27:51,319 inside and outside of the state, a common a common 482 00:27:51,359 --> 00:27:55,599 thing that has kept coming up to me is people 483 00:27:55,759 --> 00:27:59,119 who have seen these accounts who have very vocally supported 484 00:27:59,160 --> 00:28:03,720 James Talerico making electability arguments critiquing jas and Crocket. But 485 00:28:03,839 --> 00:28:08,960 those same social media accounts also praise Graham Platner in 486 00:28:09,079 --> 00:28:14,799 Maine for his you know, brash, blunt, non traditional style. 487 00:28:15,319 --> 00:28:20,799 And that's where a lot of these very strong, negatively 488 00:28:20,839 --> 00:28:25,119 polarized positions come in. Is Well, you're making these electability 489 00:28:25,200 --> 00:28:28,960 arguments about Jazz and Crockett that she is she said 490 00:28:29,039 --> 00:28:32,279 hyperpartisan things, that she is aggressive, that she is very 491 00:28:32,319 --> 00:28:35,440 out there and that's why we can't nominate her. But 492 00:28:35,559 --> 00:28:39,359 you also support a candidate who frankly has a lot 493 00:28:39,400 --> 00:28:44,880 more electoral baggage than she does. That begs the question 494 00:28:44,920 --> 00:28:47,519 of well, why is that. Is it because Jason Crockett 495 00:28:47,559 --> 00:28:50,200 is a black woman and because Graham Platner is a 496 00:28:50,240 --> 00:28:53,079 white man, or is it because you think that these 497 00:28:53,079 --> 00:28:57,319 are different these are different political environments. And I'll say 498 00:28:57,720 --> 00:29:02,039 I talked to one influencer in particular who has been, 499 00:29:02,920 --> 00:29:05,240 you know, kind of in and out of this race 500 00:29:05,279 --> 00:29:10,839 a little bit, and they told me if if the 501 00:29:10,920 --> 00:29:15,880 tall Rico supporters on you know, Twitter, Instagram, whatever, if 502 00:29:15,920 --> 00:29:20,519 they really wanted him to win this primary, all they 503 00:29:20,599 --> 00:29:24,200 had to do was let Jasmine loose. And what they meant, 504 00:29:24,200 --> 00:29:26,799 why that is all you had to do was talk 505 00:29:26,839 --> 00:29:32,359 about why you prefer your candidate instead of attack the 506 00:29:32,400 --> 00:29:36,640 credibility and the history and the record of Jasmine Crockett. 507 00:29:36,680 --> 00:29:38,759 And I think that that is a very valid opinion 508 00:29:38,799 --> 00:29:40,799 to say. And in the article that Kayla wrote that 509 00:29:40,839 --> 00:29:43,240 I was quoted in, I did say, like a lot 510 00:29:43,279 --> 00:29:48,160 of this is not necessarily that people are extremely passionate 511 00:29:48,640 --> 00:29:52,000 about James Taal Rico or extremely passionate about Jasmin Crockett. 512 00:29:52,119 --> 00:29:55,880 It's the people have been negatively polarized into having these 513 00:29:56,279 --> 00:29:59,559 very strong opinions because of the attacks that they've seen 514 00:29:59,599 --> 00:30:02,880 on social And I think a lot of this is 515 00:30:02,960 --> 00:30:06,359 left over from the twenty twenty four election, where there 516 00:30:06,440 --> 00:30:09,559 were a lot of really unfair criticisms of Kamala Harris 517 00:30:09,559 --> 00:30:12,480 that were made about how she couldn't be the nominee, 518 00:30:12,799 --> 00:30:15,920 about how Biden had to stay in because America wasn't 519 00:30:15,960 --> 00:30:20,039 ready to elect a black woman, And frankly, like me 520 00:30:20,119 --> 00:30:22,799 as an individual, someone who has been very vocal about 521 00:30:22,839 --> 00:30:27,839 how I am voting for James Tallerico, like my reasoning 522 00:30:27,839 --> 00:30:30,440 for voting for him is he speaks to me on 523 00:30:30,519 --> 00:30:33,599 a personal level with his story and his record, more 524 00:30:33,599 --> 00:30:38,000 than jos Mon Crockett does. And you know, you don't 525 00:30:38,039 --> 00:30:41,599 have to denigrate the other candidate to prove your point 526 00:30:41,599 --> 00:30:45,480 about why you want to support the opposing candidate. And 527 00:30:45,559 --> 00:30:47,759 so I think that this is just kind of a 528 00:30:47,799 --> 00:30:51,279 remnant of a lot of people feeling like there was 529 00:30:51,319 --> 00:30:55,359 no real resolution to a lot of the inter party 530 00:30:55,440 --> 00:30:59,720 conflict that happened post twenty twenty four election. And I 531 00:30:59,759 --> 00:31:02,960 think that Texas has kind of become a stand in 532 00:31:03,240 --> 00:31:06,119 for a lot of those leftover feelings because people people 533 00:31:06,160 --> 00:31:08,039 feel like they're feeling and seeing a lot of the 534 00:31:08,039 --> 00:31:11,480 same attacks. I don't know if we're going to get 535 00:31:11,519 --> 00:31:14,960 a resolution from that from this race. But what I 536 00:31:15,039 --> 00:31:19,880 do know is that I don't think any campaign in 537 00:31:19,920 --> 00:31:23,160 this primary or in Texas in general, I don't think 538 00:31:23,200 --> 00:31:28,079 anyone is navigated uh this situation correctly. And I think 539 00:31:28,160 --> 00:31:31,400 that I don't know that a productive conversation is going 540 00:31:31,480 --> 00:31:34,079 to come out of this. Moreover, my concern is that 541 00:31:34,119 --> 00:31:36,880 this is going to lead to more resentment. And you know, 542 00:31:37,000 --> 00:31:39,359 I think it was you Eleanor who said, you know, 543 00:31:39,440 --> 00:31:42,680 after March third, you know, it's all Democrats are all 544 00:31:42,720 --> 00:31:44,480 friends again. I don't know that we're going to see 545 00:31:44,519 --> 00:31:47,039 that happen, you know. I don't know that we'll see 546 00:31:47,240 --> 00:31:50,400 James Talerico and jas mccrockett campaign together. I don't know 547 00:31:50,440 --> 00:31:54,839 that we'll see the Senate candidate campaigning with Colin Allred 548 00:31:54,920 --> 00:31:57,960 or Julie Johnson in their congressional district. Like I think 549 00:31:57,960 --> 00:32:02,079 that this may genuinely be an inflection point in Texas 550 00:32:02,119 --> 00:32:06,680 politics around this topic of conversation, and frankly, like maybe 551 00:32:06,720 --> 00:32:09,640 it needs to happen because Texas Democrats haven't won a 552 00:32:09,640 --> 00:32:11,640 statewide election in thirty years. 553 00:32:12,680 --> 00:32:14,240 Speaker 1: I definitely feel like there was that talk of like 554 00:32:14,319 --> 00:32:16,880 this inflection point after twenty twenty four, like you said, 555 00:32:16,920 --> 00:32:20,440 but there wasn't maybe as much of a I don't know, 556 00:32:20,480 --> 00:32:22,240 there was just so much national noise to sort of 557 00:32:22,319 --> 00:32:26,200 drown some of that out that now it is, you know, 558 00:32:26,240 --> 00:32:28,640 the family in fighting is like out on a national stage. 559 00:32:28,680 --> 00:32:30,319 I mean, certainly, I think that's happening on the Republican 560 00:32:30,400 --> 00:32:33,480 side as well, right, I mean, they're deciding what they want, 561 00:32:33,839 --> 00:32:36,960 you know, their future to look like their nomination, you know, 562 00:32:37,039 --> 00:32:38,319 sort of through their nominee. 563 00:32:38,359 --> 00:32:39,680 Speaker 2: But I do just. 564 00:32:40,000 --> 00:32:41,759 Speaker 1: Briefly before we wrap up Olivia, I do want to 565 00:32:41,759 --> 00:32:44,000 talk about, you know, President Trump, who I do think 566 00:32:44,039 --> 00:32:49,559 has like, uh sort of lassoed this outrage economy and 567 00:32:50,000 --> 00:32:53,279 this attention economy in a way unlike almost any other 568 00:32:53,319 --> 00:32:58,839 you know, modern presidential president or like modern candidate really 569 00:32:58,880 --> 00:33:03,400 has I mean what sort of sets him apart and like, 570 00:33:03,799 --> 00:33:07,559 how has he shifted all of this to make sort 571 00:33:07,559 --> 00:33:09,880 of this landscape for this, for this kind of moment. 572 00:33:10,880 --> 00:33:14,279 Speaker 4: Yeah, there is no politician in the history of America 573 00:33:14,319 --> 00:33:20,519 who is better at commanding attention or dominating the attention 574 00:33:20,559 --> 00:33:24,039 to economy than Donald Trump. Period. You know, I've heard 575 00:33:24,079 --> 00:33:25,720 a lot of people say, you know, Donald Trump broke 576 00:33:25,759 --> 00:33:27,720 the Republican Party. I would argue that he broke the 577 00:33:27,720 --> 00:33:31,559 Democratic Party too, because trying to figure out how to 578 00:33:31,559 --> 00:33:35,359 compete with his ability to command of a narrative has 579 00:33:35,400 --> 00:33:38,119 been so difficult. Democrats have been trying to do it 580 00:33:38,160 --> 00:33:43,200 for ten years. I think that he really changed this 581 00:33:43,359 --> 00:33:46,880 in the way of you know, politics has kind of 582 00:33:46,920 --> 00:33:50,039 always been this game of decency and respectability, and I 583 00:33:50,039 --> 00:33:53,160 think he completely threw that out the door. And when 584 00:33:53,240 --> 00:34:00,759 you combined his very harsh, aggressive political strategy, if you 585 00:34:00,759 --> 00:34:03,480 know what I was talking about earlier, with these algorithms 586 00:34:04,680 --> 00:34:10,960 that incentivize strong reactions and high volume reactions, it just 587 00:34:11,039 --> 00:34:16,039 leads to this combustible situation where the political narratives are 588 00:34:16,039 --> 00:34:19,760 just constantly on fire. You know, if something is breaking 589 00:34:19,840 --> 00:34:24,000 through online, it's because you were seeing pure anger from 590 00:34:24,039 --> 00:34:26,239 people on the left and on the right. You know. 591 00:34:26,320 --> 00:34:29,679 The only moments that I can think of that have 592 00:34:29,840 --> 00:34:33,400 seriously broken through in the last year were the shootings 593 00:34:33,400 --> 00:34:36,440 of Renee Good at alex Pratti, And that's because half 594 00:34:36,480 --> 00:34:38,519 of the country was talking about how much of a 595 00:34:38,559 --> 00:34:40,679 tragedy it was, and the other half of the country 596 00:34:40,840 --> 00:34:44,039 was justifying why it happened, and I think that that 597 00:34:44,519 --> 00:34:47,880 is the outcome of Donald Trump being at the forefront 598 00:34:47,880 --> 00:34:51,239 of this. What I will say is, I think the 599 00:34:51,320 --> 00:34:55,039 Democrats are finally learning from not just twenty twenty four, 600 00:34:56,480 --> 00:34:59,159 but from the kind of dip that they had through 601 00:34:59,360 --> 00:35:03,320 the twenty twenty to twenty twenty five when Biden left office. 602 00:35:04,199 --> 00:35:07,199 You know, the social media strategy people talk about with 603 00:35:07,239 --> 00:35:10,079 Donald Trump about how he was so brilliant and campaigning 604 00:35:10,079 --> 00:35:13,199 in twenty twenty four and campaigning online and in social 605 00:35:13,199 --> 00:35:16,920 media spaces. That was not Donald Trump's strategy. That was 606 00:35:17,000 --> 00:35:19,800 Joe Biden's strategy in twenty twenty during the COVID nineteen 607 00:35:19,880 --> 00:35:24,440 pandemic that he set up and kind of loosened a lot. Once, 608 00:35:24,559 --> 00:35:27,079 you know, traditional campaigning came back and Donald Trump and 609 00:35:27,079 --> 00:35:30,039 his campaign realized what it was and they picked it 610 00:35:30,119 --> 00:35:32,760 up and they kept it pushing, and it was wildly successful. 611 00:35:32,800 --> 00:35:35,880 And so I think that the place that it's brought 612 00:35:35,960 --> 00:35:40,360 us to in modern politics is that the incentive structure 613 00:35:40,559 --> 00:35:43,440 for our politicians is different, because now it's not just 614 00:35:43,599 --> 00:35:46,159 you know, my comms director needs to have a good 615 00:35:46,159 --> 00:35:49,920 relationship with the booking producer at MSNBC or with the 616 00:35:50,199 --> 00:35:53,639 you know, head politics writer at Texas Tribune. It's I 617 00:35:53,719 --> 00:35:57,480 need to be saying things that are outlandish or outrageous 618 00:35:57,599 --> 00:36:00,480 or powerful enough on social media that I'm getting reaction 619 00:36:00,599 --> 00:36:04,239 from both Democrats and Republicans. And I don't know that 620 00:36:04,239 --> 00:36:08,880 that incentive structure is necessarily healthy for democracy, or that 621 00:36:08,920 --> 00:36:12,480 it's healthy for politics in general, because I'm of the 622 00:36:12,519 --> 00:36:15,440 opinion that the incentive structure for politicians should be that 623 00:36:15,920 --> 00:36:17,800 you get to win your election and you get to 624 00:36:17,880 --> 00:36:20,599 keep your job, not I'm going to get a million 625 00:36:20,760 --> 00:36:24,000 likes on the social media post calling an American citizen 626 00:36:24,000 --> 00:36:26,800 who was killed by a federal agent a domestic terrorist. 627 00:36:27,360 --> 00:36:28,119 Speaker 2: Well's interesting. 628 00:36:28,239 --> 00:36:30,559 Speaker 5: I mean, two things that have been said about James 629 00:36:30,559 --> 00:36:35,440 Tellerico on this podcast was low key god and good manners, right, 630 00:36:35,719 --> 00:36:38,280 but also Olivia you said that he's probably the only 631 00:36:38,320 --> 00:36:40,519 state representative in the country to have over a million 632 00:36:40,559 --> 00:36:44,119 followers on Instagram. I mean, it seems like what he 633 00:36:44,320 --> 00:36:48,559 is trying to do with his campaign and his persona 634 00:36:49,159 --> 00:36:54,440 is rise in this world with a different strategy, and 635 00:36:54,639 --> 00:36:57,639 what maybe this race is setting up is a test 636 00:36:57,920 --> 00:37:00,880 of whether that's possible. You know, bigguse, I do think, 637 00:37:01,360 --> 00:37:04,800 you know, regardless of your feelings of how this is 638 00:37:04,920 --> 00:37:08,400 or who she is as a candidate. Jasmine Crockett displays 639 00:37:08,440 --> 00:37:13,360 a lot of those strategies that Donald Trump does too. 640 00:37:13,400 --> 00:37:17,480 I mean, her most famous phrase is what like leech blonde, 641 00:37:17,639 --> 00:37:20,559 bad built, butch body right, which is pretty caustic and 642 00:37:20,559 --> 00:37:24,760 pretty confrontational and got a reaction from both Republicans and Democrats. So, 643 00:37:25,440 --> 00:37:27,360 I mean, I think that is why this race is 644 00:37:27,400 --> 00:37:30,079 so fascinating. One of the many reasons why this race 645 00:37:30,119 --> 00:37:33,519 is so fascinating is that contrast in styles, but it's 646 00:37:33,559 --> 00:37:36,280 still sort of in a lot of ways taking place online. 647 00:37:36,559 --> 00:37:40,679 Speaker 1: Yeah. Absolutely, Well, we are a week out from early voting, 648 00:37:40,800 --> 00:37:44,079 so we will soon be able to discuss what this 649 00:37:44,159 --> 00:37:47,760 all meant and do our postgame analysis and just less 650 00:37:47,760 --> 00:37:50,880 than a month Olivia, thank you so much for joining 651 00:37:50,960 --> 00:37:54,360 us for this conversation, Kayla as well. This week's episode 652 00:37:54,360 --> 00:37:56,320 of the Trip Cast is brought to you by the 653 00:37:56,360 --> 00:38:01,159 Texas Tribune Membership program. Our producers are Rob and Chris. 654 00:38:01,239 --> 00:38:03,840 You can find us anywhere you find your podcasts, and 655 00:38:03,920 --> 00:38:05,320 we will see you next week.