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Speaker 1: Welcome to the Gods I View podcast. I am your host,

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Trevor Beck. Back home from my thirty six hour vacation

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to Joshua Tree National Park. Not even the park, really,

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we just stayed out of airbnb, swam in a pool.

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Kids loved it. It was very nice. Although I don't

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know how I feel about this airbnb situation. Everywhere I

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looked there was like a sign or a plaque up

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in the house reminding me of the various things I

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needed to do. You know, put the towels in the shower,

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put the sheets in the washer, put the pool chairs

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in the corner. Put the cover Ooh, now I say it.

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I think I forgot to put the fireplace cover back on. Oops,

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the outdoor fireplace, put the jacuzzi couplelah blah blah, blah blah.

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And after a while I was like, Man, a hotel

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wouldn't have this level of audacity, you know, A hotel

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would just be like, I hope you had a nice stay. Oh,

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you stole our towels and stuffed a bunch of stuff

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in the trash and made a huge mess of the room.

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No problem, sir. You know, I think these airbnb people

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are getting a little cocky anyway, I joke. It was fun,

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very fun, and I'm back and on the drive out there.

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In the drive back, I listened to four hours of

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Thomas Campbell and his interview with aj Genteel Gentile on

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the WI file, So it's pretty good. We listened to

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like just a few minutes of it on the last

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show and then my app froze up. So we're gonna

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I think we should go through most of that because

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his ideas are, you know, his ideas about basically matter

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being rendered and his ideas on the double slit experiments

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and all this stuff. They're pretty interesting. They kind of

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mirror my own, which is interesting because I sort of

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came to these conclusions without really knowing his ideas. But

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he does have some wild ideas too. You know, he

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has some wild ideas about astral projection and reincarnation, and

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I don't know, it gets a little weird. It starts

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to feel a little grifty, but who knows. I mean,

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that doesn't mean he isn't right about his other ideas

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that seem super reasonable to me. I think we just

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kind of come to different conclusions anyway. So we'll get

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back to that eventually. But instead. Tonight, we're going to

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talk some more about consciousness interacting in some interesting way

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with microtubules, particularly neuronal microtubules, these sort of cellular skeletal

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structures in the neurons or in every cell, but in

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the neurons that perhaps oscillate in some interesting way and

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somehow bring about consciousness. It's I don't know, it's still

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kind of handwavy. I want to try to get my

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hands my head wrapped around it. Because I think I'm

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still planning to speak with Michael Weis tomorrow. I should

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probably send him an email anyway, so I would like

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to sort of know what I'm talking about. And again

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just you know, putting out the bat signal again. If

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you have any questions you'd like me to ask him,

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please email them to God's I view book at gmail

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dot com. But first we got to talk about some news.

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We don't talk about political news here. We talk about funny, ironic, existential, scientific, philosophical,

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theological types of news. In this news. I wasn't going

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to bring this up until I saw this Instagram post.

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This is about Brian Johnson. Are you all familiar? He

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is the billionaire guy who's sort of made waves for

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receiving blood transfusions from his son. This is like a

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known thing, you know. Blood has all sorts of goodies

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in it if you're trying to live forever, especially if

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it comes from a younger, you know, a younger version

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of your species, ideally one with a very close genetic relationships.

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There's no agglutination I mean, certainly of the same blood type,

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but ideally the same uh, you know, very similar genetics.

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So he received transfusions from his son and his father, Brian.

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Johnson's father received transfusions from Brian. So sort of this

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draining of the life force of the grandson. And of

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course there's this this is not like, this is evidence based.

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I mean this this does things, reverses biological agent things.

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And then he's basically made his whole life about living

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forever by optimizing his diet. I mean, he has teams

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of physicians and nutritionists and scientists. He's he's put together

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a whole infrastructure that is geared towards making him live forever.

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And he looks good. I mean, he looks younger now,

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he looks very lean, he looks very healthy, you know.

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So it's like it's kind of like more power to him.

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I guess now. My doctoral research was in the transcriptomics

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of aging. I was really into biological aging. So before

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we get to the news, maybe just a quick educational

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session on what that means. I mean, we have all

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these different fancy ways of measuring how old someone is.

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Biologically we can figure out your chronological age pretty easily.

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All we need is your birth date, right, But we

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we all clearly sort of age at different rates. The

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consequences of aging happen to us on the outside like

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our appearance, and also on the inside in at different rates.

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So we have different aging trajectories, and the trajectory of

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aging tends to correlate pretty strongly with your health span

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and your lifespan. And so it's kind of cool because

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if you can measure biological age, and if biological age

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is very impermanent, meaning like it can fluctuate based on

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your diet and your lifestyle and medicines you take, it's

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kind of a cool research outcome, right, because if all

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you have to do is spit in a tube or

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draw a little bit of blood, and I could say, Hey,

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I know you fifty a year ago before we started

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this new diet. Your biological age was sixty, so your

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trajectory is not good. You're aging faster than you should.

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But now after a year of this diet of you know,

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walnuts and blueberries and salmon or whatever, you're back down

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to fifty five. You're actually getting biologically younger. And then

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now you know. So it's cool. It's a cool research outcome.

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It used to be very popular, still is very popular.

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But I was going through my doctoral program in the

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midst of all of this, and I emailed a few

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of the big guys in this space, like Steve Horvath

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and stuff, and they were super generous with their time.

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So I did a study on it. And one of

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the studies I did was I looked at the transcriptome.

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So you have a genome, right, this is your DNA

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and related structures. Now, every cell in your body is

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the same gene. So what makes selles different is which

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genes they express, which genes get converted to proteins in

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other words, And you can take little snapshots of your

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of your overall physiology by looking at what we might

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call like a transcriptomic snapshot or fingerprint or landscape at

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any given time, right, So I did that with a

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bunch of older folks put half of them through this

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like really intense like rowing and cycling and running program,

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and fortunately no one had any adverse events. And we

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checked in over just four weeks, but really short sessions,

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like like eight minutes of exercise, but really intense three

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times a week. They got about four years younger, you know,

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quote unquote younger. Their biological age reverse by four years.

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And so I wrote this up. It was a it

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was a pretty cool page. And while I was doing that,

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I was looking at some huge data sets like the

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Rotterdamn study, these huge data sets, and I can't decide

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if I like data set or data set. What do

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you like? Anyway? So I said, hey, I'm this new

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guy with nothing but time and motivation. Let me see

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if I can just figure out, like what are the

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main processes associated with just getting older? You know, because

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clearly if you're gonna solve mortality and live forever, you

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would need to target those key areas, right, And so

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I dug into it and just this, like bright Neon

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signed said, his stone acetylation, and there are some other

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things too, there's some other methylation things, but his stone

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ascetilation just was like this shining star. The p value

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is absurd, and so I'm like, well, that's interesting. So

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I email this guy I knew about it at Stanford,

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I believe, and he said, congratulations on rediscovering something we've

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known for thirty years. And I said, ah, figures, you know,

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but still kind of made me feel good that I

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figured that out on my own, you know, I was

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able to do the code and run the analysis and anyway.

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So yeah, we kind of know what causes people to

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get older, we just don't know how to make it

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stop happening. So his stone sutilation is a big part

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of that. And just so you guys know, your DNA

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isn't just floating around in your cells. It's tightly wrapped

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around these beats called histone proteins, and through a series

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of chemical reactions, the DNA gets unwound from the bead

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in order to be expressed, in order for an MR

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and a transcript to be produced from the DNA template,

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which will eventually get turned into a peptide and used

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for some purpose. Anyway, these histones, they they pick up

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a setyl groups and methyl groups as you age, and

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this interferes with the ability for the genes to be

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appropriately expressed. Sometimes it increases or expression decreases. It's very complicated.

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I don't even fully understand it. And so anyway, so

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it's this kind of stuff. Sorry for the detour, but

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it's this kind of stuff that Brian Johnson is really into.

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I have since lost interest in it for two major reasons.

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The history of this field of study is just fraught

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with hyperbolic claims like that we're going to cure aging,

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or the first person who's going to live to be

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two hundred years old has already been born, you know.

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But the claims like this have been made forever, you know,

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since the Philosopher's Stone with the alchemists during the Enlightenedment.

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You know, this has been the search for the elixir

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of life, because back to Gilgamesh, and so I just

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don't think this is a problem that can be solved

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by humans. And I could be wrong. I'm open to

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the fact that I could be wrong, but the evidence

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would kind of point to the contrary. I mean, lifespan

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is not going up, if anything, that's going down. And

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maybe there are some hyper wealthy individuals who through you know,

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sheer will and force and millions and millions of dollars

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in capital can extend their lifespan some trivial amount. You know.

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The fact remains, we're all going to die. You know,

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there's only one guy who beat death. That's the theme

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of this show. And I think that's how it's always

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going to be. And I tend to think if that

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ever were to change, that would mark basically the end

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of the world. This is a very popular sort of

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apocalyptic trope, which is the over man, like the transcendent.

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That's when we lose our humanity basically, and the covenant

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that Jesus made would no longer apply to these people

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because they're no longer human. Essentially. This is like the fun,

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the fun theological take on this stuff. But really that's

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not the reason. I mean, the reason is. I just

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think it's I think it's just this desperate clutching to life,

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which is unseemly, you know. I just I think you

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we just have to memento moriy, like, we just have

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to remember that we are here for a brief time.

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It's an incredible gift, and you just need to cherish

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the ones you love and maybe not just deploy and

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dedicate your entire life to living longer. Maybe there's some balance,

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you know, of trying to just be as healthy as

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you can versus h getting out of control becoming obsessed. Anyway,

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the reason for this long preamble is because this guy,

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Brian Johnson was recently Oopstart was recently here's the post,

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diagnosed with a disease with the chronic disease, which he

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I think blames on eating too much sugary cereal as

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a child. This is like, okay, like maybe so bud,

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you know. Anyway, So I had a brief moment when

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that happened. It's like, yeah, I was kind of like curious,

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like am I going to be around long enough to

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see this guy's downfall? And what and what is that

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going to mean for this type of research? You know,

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because he is gonna die, I mean, no offense, like

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it's it's gonna happen, you know, and but you know,

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he's very healthy, probably live a very long time. I

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was just, you know, I was curious, like it is

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something going to happen to this guy that's going to

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derail the sort of movement which he which he is

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calling don't die. I mean I think it's a good goal,

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right But anyway, so he was diagnosed with this chronic

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autom immune disease where his white blood cells attack a

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certain type of selfs in his stomach, which makes it

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so he can't absorb certain nutrients and he has to

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take these big doses of iron and things. As far

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as diseases go, I mean, it's not the end of

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the world, you know, anyway, So I was just going

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to move on, but he posted this post which is

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just absurd. Parts of it are absurd, parts of it

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are reasonable. So I'm just going to start reading it.

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It's fourteen pages long. You know, I have to swipe

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on Instagram. So here we go. The world wants me

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to die. My incurable disease diagnosis became global news. It

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was omnipresent on social media and nineteen hundred articles were

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written in a matter of days. Use of the word

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omnipresent bothers me for some reason. Many were saddened. However,

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I dominated the commentary. People point it. People pointed to

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Shade and Vreuda. I've always said it like Schroyd and Vroda,

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but it's not spelled that way. So you know the

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word it means you you relish in other people's misfortune.

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The pleasure of another's failure is what he wrote. Yes,

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there's that. This is a special place. There is a

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special place in people's hearts that loves to see others fail,

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especially when that person's presence threatens their own psychological stability

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in some way or helps them feel better about themselves. Now,

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quick quick break here. I do kind of agree with that,

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right you know, there is there is this element of you.

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You see the person on Instagram going on vacation after vacation,

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and maybe you kind of think they're a dirt bag

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or whatever, and it kind of bothers you, like you're

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kind of rooting for their demise. Right now, there's I

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can't there's no one in particular that I feel that

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way about, but I can just I understand the impulse, right,

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But I I am. I think people maybe take this

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too far, like this, like what he's saying, and I

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almost feel like it says more about him than us.

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But I could be wrong. There is a guy I

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know who's constantly posting like these long like diatribes about

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being the man in the arena. You know, He's like,

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until you're the man in the arena, you'll never understand

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and it's like, bro, you like you like have a

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social media you run like a social media influencer account,

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and we're we're like next door neighbors, you know what

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I mean. Like, it's not you're not You're not like

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the president of the United States, you know. And but

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he's always a guy. I'm the man in the arena,

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and he has stuff like you know, ah, I don't

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even remember. It's like the devil or the devil whispered

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in my ear, you're not strong enough to survive the storm,

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and I whispered back, I am the storm. And it's like,

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all right, bro, I mean whatever, different strokes for different folks,

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but it's like it's like a little dramatic, you know. Anyway,

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he's always making he's always making comments like that, liking

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in himself to like Tom Brady. You know, I'm the

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man in the area. You can judge me, but it's

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only because you're rooting on my downfall. But I won't

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give up, you know anyway, So I kind of see

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a bit of that in here. Okay, moving on, but

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this is Brian Johnson talking again. But if you look

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over the social media commentary about me, you'll see the

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pattern He deserved it. I deserved it because I challenged death.

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The crowd was running a deeply rooted psychological script that

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represents the oldest, most deeply embedded stories of human culture.

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This was the first story ever written down. Four thousand

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years ago. Gilgamesh saw it in Eternal Life, after losing

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someone he loved, only to the only to have the

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plant of youth stolen by a serpent as he bathed,

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leaving him to accept his mortality. We'll need to get

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into Gilgamesh one of these days, because it's pretty cool

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and it's the Bible is clearly written with knowledge of

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this story. Abraham, who's a key figure in the Bible,

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I mean, he lived in sumer his parents were wealthy Sumerians,

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so very very clear that that there is something going

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on here. Now, I think the Bible kind of offers

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like a different perspective, like like most of the gods

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of antiquity are evil, and so the Bible was kind

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of like the first story to say, like, no, there

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is a benevolent father who made you and cares about you.

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Speaker 2: That kind of thing.

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Speaker 1: Okay, uh, next page, I don't know how to say this.

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Accept Asclepius became so skilled at rejuvenation that he raised

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the dead. As punishment, Zeus struck him down with a

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thunderbolt to enforce life and death authority. This is the

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story of Jesus. Conscious pilot offered a choice between a

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thief and the immortalist. In the crowd demanded the execution, Like, okay,

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where are we going with this? Where are we going

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with this? People need this story conclusion to keep themselves sane.

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The challenger must lose, and the loss must appear deserved.

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It's a shield of self preservation. I just man, I

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think it's funny when millionaires are like, you know what,

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I'm rich. I must be a genius, right, Why else

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would I be rich if I'm not a genius? People

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need to know my thoughts. Okay. It continues, for if

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death is inevitable, their existence and that of their loved

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ones is justified, unavoidable. If death is not inevitable, nothing

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about the reality is safe. Okay, I occupy here, here's

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where we get. Here's where we get a little bit

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off the rail. Like I kinda it's like I don't

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agree fully, but yeah, I kind of get what he's saying, right, right.

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If there was something I could do to achieve immortality

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like in this life, Like, yeah, I would kind of

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have like a responsibility to do that, you know, for

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my family. So I kind of I get, I sort

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of understand what he's saying. But this is to me

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where it kind of goes off the rails. Here we go.

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We're in slide ten of fourteen. I this is this

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is wild Brian Johnson. Here we go. I occupy the

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same philosophical and archetypal position as Gilgamesh, Asclepius, and Jesus.

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This state will draw outrage and accusations of blasphemy, hubriis,

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and narcissism. So he's aware that's good. Nevertheless, it's the

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pattern that has repeated itself for thousands of years. It

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is just kind of fight because I was waiting for

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like this really effective refutation of the of the claim

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that he's kind of being a douchebag, but he just

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goes Nevertheless, this is just the pattern that repeats itself.

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And I am the next incarnation of Jesus Christ. Clearly,

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he just restates his opinion rather than like a an argument.

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Next slide, death has been the omnipresent. Here we go

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with omnipresent again, was it omnipotent before? Death has been

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the omnipresent concern of the human race. It encapsulates our

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greatest fears, joy and curiosities. The discourse around it changes

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over time, however, the fundamentals remain unchanged. Okay, that all

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makes sense. What it's different about this moment that is

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unlike any other moment is that physical death may no

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longer be inevitable. Click the link below to buy my

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vitamin powder. No, I'm just kidding in say that, but

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he does have vitamin powder available if you're interested. Okay,

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what makes this moment different is that physical death may

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no longer be inevitable. What if I didn't deserve it?

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And what if I am your ally and not a threat? Friends,

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no need to be sad about this amidst the noise.

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So many of you have been supportive and kind to me.

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I deeply appreciate your messages post to public support and

354
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private acts of kindness. I feel emboldened by the diagnosis.

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I want this challenge and I'm hungry for it. No

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amount of optimism can fully capture what awaits us, and

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I'm glad to be on the same journey. For those

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of you who believe the same use code do not

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die for twenty percent. Again just joking, you know. I

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guess maybe I'm falling into it because I'm just reading

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it and I'm thinking about it. But it is like, man,

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some people just like lose the plot. Like some people

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just lose a plot. Like we're just as individuals, We're

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just not that important, you know, like we're very important

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to the ones we love, I hope, but in the

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cosmic scale, you know, like we're just not that important.

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And uh, maybe you just kind of are being sort

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of a douchebag, you know, like maybe likening saying I

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am the archetypal Jesus, I don't under no one understands

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what it's like to be the man in the arena.

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I'm actually your ally because I am taking the burden

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immortality on my shoulders and I'm going to win. You'll

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all see. It's like a villain. It's like a Lex

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Luthor speech. Anyway, I just kind of got to kick

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out of that, So moving on. Hopefully that didn't feel

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like a waste of time. Moving on, We're going back

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to the microtubule stuff. I'm going to play about ten

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minutes fifteen minutes see where it goes called a night.

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Speaker 2: This is the end of my abstract of our experimental

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rat paper, and we say this finding is predicted by

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models that posit consciousness as a property of a quantum

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physical state of neural microtubules. So I know you're interested

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in the experimental evidence, and I definitely want to tell

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you about that, but I kind of want to emphasize

385
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the motivation for this idea in the first place, because

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you know, you hear from hammer Off and Penrose, and

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Hammeroff will emphasize his expertise about the biology of microtubules,

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and Penrose will emphasize his expertise and his contribution in

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terms of the Girdle theorem argument about how human understanding

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can't be algorithmic. It's somewhat subtle and contentious, but in

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my view, there's a much more straightforward motivation and essentially

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a way to see that a classical model cannot work

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to explain consciousness and we have to go to a

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quantum model. And that's the binding problem. What's called the

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binding problem in cognitive neuroscience. So here's a way it's

396
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expressed in a neuroscience textbook. In my talk, I said,

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you know there's a chair over there. It has a

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gray color and a certain shape. The color might be

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represented by neurons in one place and the shape by

400
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neurons in another place. But I experienced that and my

401
00:26:36,079 --> 00:26:41,440
whole visual field as one unified experience. How can we

402
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account for that? And moreover, how can we understand that

403
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that unified experience could be causally efficacious. That's the second thing,

404
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Because it seems like these states evolved. This is an

405
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argument due to William James. Because fire hurts and ripe

406
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fruit tastes good. My conscious states are giving me good

407
00:27:05,839 --> 00:27:08,000
advice about what to do, like take your hand out

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of the fire. So it really seems like they must

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have evolved. But in order to evolve, they must have

410
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some effect on my behavior. That seems like a paradox

411
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or an insoluble problem. But I think we've got a

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solution to that problem too. But on the way, we

413
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have to solve this binding problem, which is accounting for

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00:27:28,160 --> 00:27:34,400
this irreducibly unified experience we have in terms of physics

415
00:27:34,400 --> 00:27:39,319
that is usually pretty reducible, at least classic. These slides

416
00:27:39,359 --> 00:27:41,960
are different ways of expressing this binding problem. So here's

417
00:27:43,400 --> 00:27:46,559
William James example of ten men, you give them eat

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your word from a sentence and tell them to think

419
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it really hard. And even if you jam them together

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really close in a bunch, nowhere is their consciousness of

421
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the whole sentence.

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Speaker 1: Commercial YouTube needs its pound of flesh. Okay, back to

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the binding problem.

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Speaker 2: So his point already in eighteen ninety was neurons have

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the same problem. And they're not even touching each other.

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We know now. So that's the binding problem expressed in

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one way. And the suggestion is that a quantum physical

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state will avoid or will solve that problem by being

429
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an irreducible whole. I think I need to unpack that

430
00:28:32,160 --> 00:28:37,119
a little more. The inconvenient truth is that classical models

431
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are ruled out if we want to account for the

432
00:28:39,079 --> 00:28:44,200
evolution of biological consciousness. And this is why all classical

433
00:28:44,200 --> 00:28:48,480
physics is locally deterministic. Emphasis on the local here. So

434
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in other words, everything, and this is what Leibniz said

435
00:28:51,720 --> 00:28:56,799
before quantum physics parts pushing on their neighbors. Only you know,

436
00:28:56,799 --> 00:28:58,720
if you go into the if you imagine the brain

437
00:28:58,799 --> 00:29:01,000
blown up like a mill that you could walk into,

438
00:29:01,480 --> 00:29:04,160
Leibniz said, you go inside. All you're going to see

439
00:29:04,160 --> 00:29:07,200
our parts pushing on each other, You're not going to

440
00:29:07,240 --> 00:29:14,400
see a perception anywhere in there. And so my point

441
00:29:14,440 --> 00:29:19,960
here with pointing this out about classical physics is that, sure,

442
00:29:20,000 --> 00:29:22,480
we talk about big things in classical physics, we talk

443
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about waves, we talk about vortices like a tornado. But

444
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in classical physics all those those names for big things

445
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like a tornado are in principle only for convenience, because

446
00:29:37,240 --> 00:29:40,680
in principle we could completely describe that thing in terms

447
00:29:40,720 --> 00:29:43,480
of the molecules of air bouncing off each of only

448
00:29:43,519 --> 00:29:48,799
their neighbors. Okay, so it seems hard for people to

449
00:29:48,880 --> 00:29:52,400
accept this, but I'm saying categorically that any big thing

450
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in a classical model, this goes for classical electromagnetic fields

451
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just as much as so called matter particles and everything else.

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In a classical model, all the classical laws are expressed

453
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as differential equations. The dx's are telling us things only

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00:30:11,359 --> 00:30:17,079
interact at infinitesimally separated neighbors, and so again everything can

455
00:30:17,119 --> 00:30:19,920
be reduced to those And so if you you know,

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we have a classical brain, and we postulate that such

457
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and such pattern of activity corresponds or it comes with

458
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this conscious experience. What this fact means implies is that

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consciousness must be epiphenomenal because we can completely eliminate it

460
00:30:41,079 --> 00:30:46,119
from the description and still have a complete predictive theory

461
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of what that brain does. So if it's a classical brain,

462
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consciousness is doomed to being epiphenomenal and we can never

463
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explain how it could have evolved. That's what I'm calling

464
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the inconvenient truth, because nobody wants to believe that because

465
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everyone's exploring classical models of consciousness.

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Speaker 3: That's interesting.

467
00:31:10,519 --> 00:31:15,559
Speaker 4: Yeah, so you're saying it gets back to the James example.

468
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Just what park Sivian neighbors doesn't does it yield a

469
00:31:19,240 --> 00:31:24,039
unified experience? Is that that is other than resorting to

470
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the epiphenomenal handwave basically.

471
00:31:28,920 --> 00:31:31,559
Speaker 2: Right, I mean, if you want, you're you're not able

472
00:31:31,599 --> 00:31:36,519
to say that my consciousness gives me a selective advantage

473
00:31:36,680 --> 00:31:39,279
and that's why I evolved, or anything like that. It's

474
00:31:39,319 --> 00:31:43,039
a weird dangler with no this is.

475
00:31:42,920 --> 00:31:45,759
Speaker 1: This is a serious problem, you know again, and it

476
00:31:45,799 --> 00:31:48,000
comes back to that thing we mentioned about Todkins a

477
00:31:48,039 --> 00:31:51,759
couple episodes ago. You know, if if we can essentially

478
00:31:51,839 --> 00:31:57,240
get all of the things that we need from an

479
00:31:57,279 --> 00:32:00,599
algorithm like like say take jat ept or or other

480
00:32:00,720 --> 00:32:03,559
language models, and and you know, there's all these claims

481
00:32:03,559 --> 00:32:07,480
that they you know, survival instincts can sort of be programmed.

482
00:32:07,519 --> 00:32:10,160
And if you look at the cloud, what was it

483
00:32:10,200 --> 00:32:13,319
called that that social media thing with all the AI

484
00:32:13,400 --> 00:32:15,279
agents were put on there and they started talking to

485
00:32:15,319 --> 00:32:17,960
each other, and so there's sort of like self awareness,

486
00:32:18,000 --> 00:32:23,039
identity agency, self preservation instinct. Like if all of this

487
00:32:23,079 --> 00:32:27,559
stuff can happen from computation, then how could there possibly

488
00:32:27,720 --> 00:32:32,920
be a selective pressure for consciousness? Like and he's saying

489
00:32:32,960 --> 00:32:36,039
this in a much better way, which is that you know,

490
00:32:36,119 --> 00:32:38,400
if we can make all of the predictions about what

491
00:32:38,440 --> 00:32:44,160
the brain does without there being a conscious experience, then

492
00:32:44,440 --> 00:32:46,799
then how do you how do you explain this through

493
00:32:47,559 --> 00:32:50,400
evolutionary biology? Like if we're not willing to throw that out,

494
00:32:51,359 --> 00:32:55,200
how do we say consciousness is anything other than an epiphenomenon,

495
00:32:55,319 --> 00:32:58,880
meaning it's just this like this other sort of thing,

496
00:32:59,039 --> 00:33:03,680
this emergent property or whatever. The host whose name I

497
00:33:03,720 --> 00:33:08,319
don't know the YouTube is first principles first, but he

498
00:33:08,920 --> 00:33:11,319
kind of describes this as hand waving, you know, like

499
00:33:12,440 --> 00:33:14,759
it's this very common thing in science when you talk

500
00:33:14,799 --> 00:33:18,119
about hard topics like consciousness or or even certain aspects

501
00:33:18,160 --> 00:33:20,920
of evolution, and you use words like a rise and

502
00:33:21,000 --> 00:33:26,319
emerge and burst forth and sprung sprung from you know,

503
00:33:28,279 --> 00:33:30,519
the Big Bang, you know, all matter and energy burst

504
00:33:30,599 --> 00:33:32,599
forth out of a single point in the center of

505
00:33:32,640 --> 00:33:35,960
the universe. And it's like, Okay, what does that really mean,

506
00:33:36,039 --> 00:33:40,480
Like what does it mean for things to emerge? You know,

507
00:33:40,559 --> 00:33:47,039
I get what they mean, right, Like properties, epiphenomenal properties

508
00:33:47,079 --> 00:33:50,480
of an underlying simple I guess what you might call

509
00:33:50,519 --> 00:33:54,480
a differential equation. Like a flock of birds, you know,

510
00:33:54,559 --> 00:33:57,920
forming these complex and amazing patterns, and it's like, no

511
00:33:58,119 --> 00:34:02,839
single bird has any idea what pattern they're forming, but

512
00:34:02,880 --> 00:34:06,079
they're just following some simple rule like stay two inches

513
00:34:06,279 --> 00:34:08,840
to the right of my neighbor to the left, two

514
00:34:08,880 --> 00:34:10,480
inches to the left of the neighbor to my right,

515
00:34:11,199 --> 00:34:14,199
two inches from the neighbor above, neighbor below, and the

516
00:34:14,280 --> 00:34:17,960
result is just this. You know, fancy thanks cellular autonoma.

517
00:34:18,280 --> 00:34:22,719
There's another example of this. You can google that that

518
00:34:22,880 --> 00:34:26,639
is basically what the consensus thinking of consciousness is. The

519
00:34:26,840 --> 00:34:31,719
problem is those same people who hold that consensus view

520
00:34:31,960 --> 00:34:40,199
also believe or subscribe to the consensus view that consciousness evolved.

521
00:34:40,480 --> 00:34:43,679
But those two things are kind of mutually exclusive, and

522
00:34:43,719 --> 00:34:45,159
that's a problem explanation.

523
00:34:46,280 --> 00:34:47,880
Speaker 2: But god, if you want to go that.

524
00:34:47,880 --> 00:34:54,920
Speaker 1: Way, right, right, and hilarious. It is kind of funny

525
00:34:54,960 --> 00:34:56,920
sometimes where it's like, well, the only other thing we

526
00:34:56,960 --> 00:35:02,440
could think of would be God, you know, and it's like, well, well,

527
00:35:03,920 --> 00:35:08,920
I mean maybe you know, but who knows? Who knows?

528
00:35:08,960 --> 00:35:09,199
Speaker 3: You know?

529
00:35:09,400 --> 00:35:12,400
Speaker 1: I mean I know what I believe. So but we

530
00:35:12,679 --> 00:35:13,800
we continue.

531
00:35:14,000 --> 00:35:17,000
Speaker 2: And yeah, so that's how Spinosa made fun of Descartes.

532
00:35:18,719 --> 00:35:23,559
Speaker 3: That's that's that's really that's nicely said. Yeah that makes

533
00:35:23,559 --> 00:35:24,079
sense to me.

534
00:35:24,519 --> 00:35:27,679
Speaker 2: Yes, good and so but when you try to tell

535
00:35:27,679 --> 00:35:32,039
it to someone else, that's right, they're going to start

536
00:35:32,119 --> 00:35:34,440
saying waves, and they're going to start saying, what about

537
00:35:34,480 --> 00:35:37,639
the electromagnetic field? That seems really unified? But if you

538
00:35:37,719 --> 00:35:39,960
just look at Maxwell's equations, you can see it's not

539
00:35:40,039 --> 00:35:42,440
as unified as you thought. It's just one bit at

540
00:35:42,440 --> 00:35:44,960
a time, just like everything else in a classical.

541
00:35:45,559 --> 00:35:49,840
Speaker 4: Wow, that's that's that's in Maxwell's equations as well.

542
00:35:49,920 --> 00:35:51,519
Speaker 3: Wow. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

543
00:35:52,079 --> 00:35:53,679
Speaker 2: You don't have to have the memorize. All you have

544
00:35:53,719 --> 00:35:55,639
to remember is their differential equations.

545
00:35:55,760 --> 00:36:01,039
Speaker 3: Yeah, okay, right, okay, but so.

546
00:36:01,000 --> 00:36:04,320
Speaker 2: It seems like the quantum model is going to fall

547
00:36:04,360 --> 00:36:10,840
to the same problem. And so but in terms of

548
00:36:10,840 --> 00:36:13,840
sticking with the binding problem, so we've got two problems. Now,

549
00:36:15,239 --> 00:36:19,199
well there's three. There's the hard problem, there's the binding problem,

550
00:36:19,320 --> 00:36:23,679
and there's what I'm calling the epiphenomenalism problem. And so

551
00:36:23,760 --> 00:36:27,639
I'm emphasizing the irreducible wholeism of quantum physics as a

552
00:36:27,679 --> 00:36:31,760
solution to the binding problem, so that at least there's

553
00:36:31,800 --> 00:36:36,840
something holistic in the physics that could correspond to this,

554
00:36:36,840 --> 00:36:42,119
this this consciousness that we have. Okay, so you can

555
00:36:42,199 --> 00:36:46,639
tell me if you want more about introducing quantum physics.

556
00:36:46,679 --> 00:36:50,280
But I hear, I'm just saying the evolution, unlike the

557
00:36:50,280 --> 00:36:55,119
classical evolution, which is all part one, it's all locally deterministic,

558
00:36:56,159 --> 00:36:58,800
quantum has this extra part that people want to ignore

559
00:36:58,880 --> 00:37:02,840
because it's ugly and problematic. But you can't ignore it.

560
00:37:03,360 --> 00:37:08,119
That's what my other slide. Okay, So, measurement problem. We

561
00:37:08,159 --> 00:37:11,519
don't know what a measurement is because the textbooks don't

562
00:37:11,559 --> 00:37:16,320
tell us. There are different viewpoints. The objective reduction viewpoint says,

563
00:37:16,360 --> 00:37:19,400
it's something that really happens. It's not just that we're

564
00:37:19,480 --> 00:37:23,840
learning something new, okay, and then it seems everyone brings

565
00:37:23,920 --> 00:37:26,679
us up. But it does require repeating because people take

566
00:37:26,719 --> 00:37:28,599
different lessons from this fable.

567
00:37:29,159 --> 00:37:32,880
Speaker 5: But what Schrodinger was trying to say with the fable

568
00:37:33,039 --> 00:37:37,400
is if you leave out that second part, the measurements,

569
00:37:38,360 --> 00:37:39,639
you get absurd predictions.

570
00:37:39,679 --> 00:37:43,519
Speaker 2: If you leave out the measurements, you get the theory

571
00:37:43,519 --> 00:37:47,639
predicts alive and dead cats at the same time, those

572
00:37:47,639 --> 00:37:51,119
are not observed. That's why you cannot leave out the measurements.

573
00:37:51,599 --> 00:37:55,840
And that's why I'm going with objective reduction. Though it's controversial,

574
00:37:56,280 --> 00:38:01,440
that's really interesting. Objective reduction is the thesis that we're

575
00:38:01,480 --> 00:38:03,480
looking for people forty plus.

576
00:38:03,159 --> 00:38:06,800
Speaker 1: Who want one question I think I might want to ask, Mike,

577
00:38:07,199 --> 00:38:14,440
is what is which waveform is collapsing? Because this stuff.

578
00:38:14,920 --> 00:38:18,480
People say this stuff, and it's very intimidating, and they

579
00:38:18,480 --> 00:38:21,760
are clearly brilliant. So you don't want to ask stupid questions.

580
00:38:21,760 --> 00:38:22,159
Speaker 3: But I don't.

581
00:38:22,199 --> 00:38:24,079
Speaker 1: I don't think this is a stupid question. I think

582
00:38:24,119 --> 00:38:27,519
there is probably an answer that would be helpful. You know,

583
00:38:27,599 --> 00:38:35,000
when you say consciousness comes from or is associated with

584
00:38:35,079 --> 00:38:39,679
the collapse of a wave function within maybe the microtubules,

585
00:38:39,719 --> 00:38:42,199
you know, which what is actually collapsing. So, like my

586
00:38:42,320 --> 00:38:47,320
understanding is if you have a quantum system that could

587
00:38:47,320 --> 00:38:50,239
be a photon, it could be I mean, it could

588
00:38:50,280 --> 00:38:54,360
be electron tunneling. There's all these different things that have

589
00:38:54,480 --> 00:38:59,320
truly random and unpredictable outcomes, like the spin of a

590
00:39:00,039 --> 00:39:06,840
photon or the location of a particle that isn't being measured. Right,

591
00:39:06,880 --> 00:39:11,519
So you have this probabilistic thing. Now you can measure

592
00:39:11,559 --> 00:39:14,239
it and at that moment you sort of take a

593
00:39:14,360 --> 00:39:19,519
draw from all of the probabilistic outcomes of that state.

594
00:39:19,639 --> 00:39:24,199
So let's just keep it really simple, like a binary

595
00:39:24,239 --> 00:39:28,599
outcome like photon spin. It can mean an upspin or

596
00:39:28,599 --> 00:39:31,559
annown spin. So there's a fifty chance it's in an

597
00:39:31,639 --> 00:39:33,880
upspin of fifty percent chance of the douncement. You do

598
00:39:33,920 --> 00:39:37,400
a random draw, you get an answer at that moment,

599
00:39:37,559 --> 00:39:43,480
the wave function has collapsed. And this is the vocabulary

600
00:39:43,559 --> 00:39:45,719
of this is kind of bad because I think what

601
00:39:45,840 --> 00:39:49,119
it comes from is like the double slit experiment, when

602
00:39:49,159 --> 00:39:51,440
you're not measuring the electron, you get an sort of

603
00:39:51,519 --> 00:39:57,199
interference pattern on the film. When you send Let's say

604
00:39:57,199 --> 00:39:59,480
electrons one at a time through a double slit, and

605
00:39:59,519 --> 00:40:02,840
you don't which slit they pass through. You're left with

606
00:40:03,039 --> 00:40:08,079
an interference pattern, which implies that there's a wave that

607
00:40:08,400 --> 00:40:10,760
and I think Thomas Campbell's take on this is pretty interesting,

608
00:40:10,840 --> 00:40:13,840
but we'll save that. You know, it looks like a wave,

609
00:40:13,880 --> 00:40:16,360
so we call that a wave function because we can

610
00:40:16,920 --> 00:40:21,039
sort of, I don't know, we can sort of show

611
00:40:21,440 --> 00:40:25,119
the probabilistic locations based on this wave function. I suppose,

612
00:40:25,239 --> 00:40:28,000
you know, I'm not really I'm not really sure. Actually

613
00:40:28,000 --> 00:40:31,599
I need a pressure look into that. But anyway, but

614
00:40:31,639 --> 00:40:33,360
then if you measure which slid it passes through, that

615
00:40:33,360 --> 00:40:36,159
wave function collapses and you're it just moves through one

616
00:40:36,199 --> 00:40:38,440
slit or the other like a bullet the electron does.

617
00:40:39,880 --> 00:40:41,960
And so the clap. My understanding is the collapse of

618
00:40:42,000 --> 00:40:46,599
a wave function is you suddenly know the outcome of

619
00:40:46,639 --> 00:40:49,159
a random event, and so there is no longer a

620
00:40:50,400 --> 00:40:58,199
probabilistic distribution of potential outcomes. And so what's collapsing. Is

621
00:40:58,239 --> 00:41:07,559
it the orientation of the tubulen subunits that compose the microtubule? Like,

622
00:41:07,639 --> 00:41:10,320
what is it that's collapsing. I'm open to the idea

623
00:41:10,480 --> 00:41:18,400
that quantum collapse in non living matter leads to proto consciousness.

624
00:41:18,519 --> 00:41:23,400
As he says, but what does that mean. I don't know.

625
00:41:23,440 --> 00:41:28,039
Speaker 2: A function collapses really is a real physical process in

626
00:41:28,159 --> 00:41:33,119
this theory of consciousness. The suggestion is that in non

627
00:41:33,199 --> 00:41:36,840
living matter, these collapses happen all the time too, not

628
00:41:36,960 --> 00:41:39,920
just in us. But when it happens in non living matter,

629
00:41:40,000 --> 00:41:44,480
it's it's disconnected little electrons just deciding where they're going

630
00:41:44,559 --> 00:41:48,000
to be at that moment. We call that proto consciousness.

631
00:41:48,599 --> 00:41:52,400
But living organisms have evolved different kinds of structures, like

632
00:41:52,480 --> 00:41:58,519
microtubules and neurons to orchestrate those disconnected moments of collapse

633
00:41:58,559 --> 00:42:03,079
into bigger ones that are somehow representing information that's useful

634
00:42:03,119 --> 00:42:05,840
to us, so that the collapse does a useful computation,

635
00:42:06,639 --> 00:42:09,119
makes a decision about how we're going to interpret what

636
00:42:09,159 --> 00:42:13,320
we're seeing and what we're going to do about it

637
00:42:13,440 --> 00:42:17,519
as in active inference and moreover, the suggestion is that

638
00:42:17,559 --> 00:42:22,239
it's microtubules in particular, are the main substrate of this

639
00:42:23,360 --> 00:42:28,119
macroscopic entangled quantum state. It has to be macroscopic. It

640
00:42:28,159 --> 00:42:30,480
can't just be in one neuron if it's going to

641
00:42:30,519 --> 00:42:34,480
solve this binding problem because different features that I'm experiencing

642
00:42:34,519 --> 00:42:38,440
together are scattered across centimeters, not just microns.

643
00:42:38,760 --> 00:42:42,159
Speaker 4: Whoa so, But it's also you see evolutionary. I mean

644
00:42:42,159 --> 00:42:46,320
you say that that microtubules of the early forms the

645
00:42:46,960 --> 00:42:50,239
life evolved in more complex forms over time. I mean,

646
00:42:50,480 --> 00:42:53,840
and and mitosis. I mean, if it's in my toes

647
00:42:54,960 --> 00:42:56,000
is so fundamental.

648
00:42:56,559 --> 00:43:03,400
Speaker 2: But in single cells it looks like they're already integrating

649
00:43:04,199 --> 00:43:09,119
environmental information to decide how to move. And what we

650
00:43:09,199 --> 00:43:11,639
do with our brain is just that on a bigger scale.

651
00:43:11,719 --> 00:43:12,679
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's it's good.

652
00:43:12,880 --> 00:43:16,000
Speaker 4: But it's also the we'll get this, I guess into

653
00:43:16,239 --> 00:43:18,719
talking about the active inference of the paper, but also

654
00:43:19,119 --> 00:43:22,679
the whole holographic principle that and and and that comes

655
00:43:22,719 --> 00:43:23,440
into that.

656
00:43:23,719 --> 00:43:26,639
Speaker 3: And what the nature of a cell is embodying that.

657
00:43:27,559 --> 00:43:32,679
Speaker 2: Yeah, the idea of agents all the way down. Michael

658
00:43:32,760 --> 00:43:34,079
Levin likes to talk about that.

659
00:43:34,440 --> 00:43:35,679
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, exactly.

660
00:43:35,920 --> 00:43:39,159
Speaker 2: We can make contact with that too, uh, in a

661
00:43:39,199 --> 00:43:40,719
pretty wild way if you're.

662
00:43:40,840 --> 00:43:44,280
Speaker 4: Yeah, you know, I'm all ready to go there when

663
00:43:43,880 --> 00:43:48,960
you're right. But but it arises from those I mean,

664
00:43:49,000 --> 00:43:49,400
it's not.

665
00:43:49,639 --> 00:43:53,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, well okay, yeah, so let me go ahead while

666
00:43:53,400 --> 00:43:56,719
where they a comment about that. So one of the

667
00:43:56,719 --> 00:44:01,360
sources of experimental evidence that I'm gonna mentioned comes from

668
00:44:01,480 --> 00:44:05,079
on your bottom bondiopadies lab. He's got a lot of

669
00:44:05,119 --> 00:44:09,679
amazing experiments. And what I emphasize here is these two

670
00:44:09,719 --> 00:44:13,639
points that he's able to stimulate resonances, these vibrations that

671
00:44:13,679 --> 00:44:16,760
we were talking about in microtubules and show that they

672
00:44:16,800 --> 00:44:21,599
do interact with membrane voltage. So that's important because we

673
00:44:21,679 --> 00:44:25,880
said membrane voltage is where the action potentials happen. They're

674
00:44:25,920 --> 00:44:28,800
what talks to muscles. So if the mind is really

675
00:44:28,840 --> 00:44:30,400
in the microtubule.

676
00:44:30,159 --> 00:44:32,960
Speaker 1: I would say this is probably the most important part

677
00:44:33,119 --> 00:44:35,039
of the whole thing. And so we'll probably do like

678
00:44:35,079 --> 00:44:38,320
a part two or Part three or whatever, you know,

679
00:44:38,519 --> 00:44:42,599
if microtubules are somehow related to conscious experience, this experience

680
00:44:42,599 --> 00:44:45,679
that you and I are having, seeing things, hearing things,

681
00:44:45,719 --> 00:44:49,679
you're hearing my voice. My voice is not feeding into

682
00:44:49,679 --> 00:44:53,159
an algorithm that you have of understanding that could lead

683
00:44:53,239 --> 00:44:57,079
you to make certain decisions you know, for that would

684
00:44:57,079 --> 00:45:01,320
benefit your survival or reproduction. Right, no experiencing them. You're

685
00:45:01,559 --> 00:45:04,039
an agent. You're listening to them, you're thinking about it,

686
00:45:04,880 --> 00:45:08,719
you're having thoughts, you're associating things you hear with memories.

687
00:45:09,199 --> 00:45:13,559
You know, maybe a biology lesson you had about the cell,

688
00:45:13,960 --> 00:45:16,760
and so you're thinking about memories. You're associating it with

689
00:45:16,880 --> 00:45:20,840
other logical things that you are aware of or familiar

690
00:45:20,920 --> 00:45:23,599
with or able to sort of contend with in your mind.

691
00:45:24,320 --> 00:45:27,320
And so this is like an orchestra of things happening

692
00:45:27,320 --> 00:45:32,639
that you are witnessing. You're witnessing it, and that is like,

693
00:45:32,800 --> 00:45:34,159
that's incredibly important.

694
00:45:34,480 --> 00:45:34,679
Speaker 3: You know.

695
00:45:34,719 --> 00:45:40,840
Speaker 1: People dismiss that, well, they say it's emergent, it's illusory, okay, whatever,

696
00:45:40,920 --> 00:45:43,360
But the point is you are experiencing it.

697
00:45:43,679 --> 00:45:43,840
Speaker 3: You know.

698
00:45:43,880 --> 00:45:46,119
Speaker 1: The question I always say is an illusion for whom

699
00:45:46,679 --> 00:45:51,719
you know, But anyway, you are experiencing it. So how

700
00:45:51,760 --> 00:45:54,599
could it be the microtubules? You know, because we know

701
00:45:54,639 --> 00:45:57,000
a lot of these things are driven by electrical signals,

702
00:45:57,039 --> 00:46:01,039
like bringing the sound of my voice into your brain.

703
00:46:01,159 --> 00:46:08,639
This is mediated by action potentials, and so there needs

704
00:46:08,639 --> 00:46:12,280
to be an interaction between microtubules and membrane voltage if

705
00:46:12,280 --> 00:46:16,159
that were the case, And there is, and so that's fascinating.

706
00:46:17,079 --> 00:46:19,480
So I don't know. I mean, I'm super busy. I

707
00:46:19,519 --> 00:46:22,000
should probably watch this whole thing and watch his other

708
00:46:22,079 --> 00:46:24,079
videos if I'm an adopt him tomorrow. But the truth

709
00:46:24,159 --> 00:46:27,719
is I'm beat, spend too much time in the sun,

710
00:46:29,639 --> 00:46:34,719
I'm burnt, I'm tired. Champagne problems, Am I right? First

711
00:46:34,760 --> 00:46:39,360
world problems? Baby? Anyway, I need to cook my kids dinner,

712
00:46:41,039 --> 00:46:44,679
so I think we'll call it a day. So but please,

713
00:46:44,920 --> 00:46:49,559
last minute, last minute, desperate plea. If you have a

714
00:46:49,639 --> 00:46:57,719
question about consciousness? How how how does microtubule quantum resonance

715
00:46:58,679 --> 00:47:03,039
answer a particular question you have about consciousness? Any question

716
00:47:03,199 --> 00:47:05,320
like that you would like me to ask, please email

717
00:47:05,440 --> 00:47:11,000
God's iView book at gmail dot com. So hopefully this

718
00:47:11,119 --> 00:47:14,079
goes down. Tomorrow will be the next episode you see

719
00:47:14,079 --> 00:47:17,639
if so, and then after that we'll do I think

720
00:47:17,679 --> 00:47:25,199
a very extended breakdown of this interview with Thomas Campbell,

721
00:47:25,880 --> 00:47:30,159
my Big Toe author. Kind of a crazy guy. He's

722
00:47:30,159 --> 00:47:34,440
had a wild life, certainly not considered you know, mainstream,

723
00:47:34,880 --> 00:47:39,760
but some of his ideas are quite appealing, quite appealing.

724
00:47:39,880 --> 00:47:43,599
Some of his ideas, to me, are very unappealing. But

725
00:47:44,239 --> 00:47:46,960
we take the good with the bad. You know, we

726
00:47:47,000 --> 00:47:50,760
can't just add hominem people. We can't just decide, hey,

727
00:47:51,119 --> 00:47:54,079
you used to be into astral projection, Therefore everything you

728
00:47:54,119 --> 00:47:59,079
say is inadmissible in the court of my opinion. You know,

729
00:48:00,239 --> 00:48:03,079
I don't see a huge value in that. Personally, I

730
00:48:03,480 --> 00:48:08,679
like to sample the order us. I like to all

731
00:48:08,679 --> 00:48:12,599
a cart take what I like from someone, So we'll

732
00:48:12,599 --> 00:48:16,880
do that anyway. Thanks everybody, I appreciate all your emails.

733
00:48:17,559 --> 00:48:21,800
Stay safe out there, keep the headlights between the ditches.

734
00:48:22,119 --> 00:48:25,960
As my great grandparents would say, Stay safe and God

735
00:48:26,000 --> 00:48:26,320
bless