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True Murder with your host, 53 00:02:38.400 --> 00:02:53.039 journalist and author Dan Zupanski. Good Evening, the newest installment 54 00:02:53.159 --> 00:02:55.919 in the New York Times best selling series of tales 55 00:02:55.960 --> 00:02:59.439 of America's most notorious criminals and the crimes that shape 56 00:02:59.479 --> 00:03:02.719 the places we call home. This time, you'll have no 57 00:03:02.800 --> 00:03:06.840 better guide through the darkest side of Iowa than Katherine Ramslin, 58 00:03:07.240 --> 00:03:10.680 one of America's most legendary true crime authors and researchers. 59 00:03:11.159 --> 00:03:14.280 Doctor Ramslin is a Wall Street Journal bestselling author and 60 00:03:14.319 --> 00:03:18.120 one of my favorite authors in any genre. She digs in, 61 00:03:18.199 --> 00:03:20.680 deep in and covers things that others before her has 62 00:03:20.719 --> 00:03:23.879 simply missed. With each story, she gives readers a look 63 00:03:24.360 --> 00:03:28.759 deep into the heart of darkness Iowa style. A parent 64 00:03:28.840 --> 00:03:32.560 murdering teen, an axe wielding serial killer, a school shooting 65 00:03:32.599 --> 00:03:36.319 on campus, killer, brothers posing as police, and many more 66 00:03:36.759 --> 00:03:40.360 notorious Iowa criminals. The book they're featuring this evening is 67 00:03:40.400 --> 00:03:45.639 Heartless Notorious USA, Iowa, with my special guests, journalist and 68 00:03:45.680 --> 00:03:49.879 author Professor Kathryne Ramslin. Welcome to the program. Thank you 69 00:03:50.000 --> 00:03:51.360 very much for Greenda's interview. 70 00:03:52.159 --> 00:03:58.599 Katherine Ramslin, Hello, thanks for having me. Good thank you an, 71 00:03:59.560 --> 00:04:01.919 thank you very much for joining us once again with 72 00:04:02.080 --> 00:04:08.000 this very interesting collection called Heartless. Let's get right into 73 00:04:08.080 --> 00:04:10.280 this because we won't have the time to cover all 74 00:04:10.680 --> 00:04:15.000 of these stories, but it's amazing. Some of these stories 75 00:04:16.040 --> 00:04:18.959 sound so similar, but we've never heard of these ones 76 00:04:19.000 --> 00:04:25.839 in particular. Let's tell us how you came to selecting 77 00:04:25.879 --> 00:04:29.879 the stories for this collection called Heartless. 78 00:04:29.920 --> 00:04:35.240 Well, first, the Heartless is strictly about Iowa, and that 79 00:04:35.680 --> 00:04:41.920 Iowa is part of a trilogy that I called Heartland Horrors, 80 00:04:42.120 --> 00:04:45.600 and the trilogy is part of a larger project that 81 00:04:45.800 --> 00:04:52.079 crime writer Greg Olsen is sort of steering. I think 82 00:04:52.120 --> 00:04:54.519 this is I think I've done at least thirteen of 83 00:04:54.560 --> 00:04:58.759 these now, of thirteen different states, and so he wants 84 00:04:58.800 --> 00:05:03.199 to have crime stories for each state and he tends 85 00:05:03.199 --> 00:05:07.360 to package them three or four together under themes. So 86 00:05:07.439 --> 00:05:10.000 that was the first thing, is just to get a theme. 87 00:05:11.240 --> 00:05:15.639 This package is Kansas, Iowa, and Nebraska, so that's you know, 88 00:05:15.720 --> 00:05:19.319 the heartland, and that's partly what led to the title, 89 00:05:19.879 --> 00:05:23.360 and also the kinds of crimes that I selected. I 90 00:05:23.399 --> 00:05:26.000 already knew of Balliska because I'd done a lot of 91 00:05:26.040 --> 00:05:30.360 work on that one with the actual the place that 92 00:05:30.519 --> 00:05:36.920 runs the tourist you know, industry there in Valliska, Iowa. 93 00:05:36.959 --> 00:05:39.800 So I already knew about that one, and I knew 94 00:05:39.800 --> 00:05:42.839 that John Wayne Gacy as Seria Killer had some associations 95 00:05:42.879 --> 00:05:46.639 and actually a number of Syria Killers had associations with Iowa. 96 00:05:47.040 --> 00:05:51.920 And then from there I started looking for other ones 97 00:05:51.959 --> 00:05:56.399 that I thought would be intriguing, like there's a Haunted 98 00:05:56.560 --> 00:05:59.040 graves to Hoe one, and there are a few that 99 00:05:59.079 --> 00:06:03.839 are kind of classick love triangle gone bad types of stories, 100 00:06:03.879 --> 00:06:10.079 but they definitely represent the sense of being in the Midwest, 101 00:06:10.240 --> 00:06:16.120 and especially you know the deep Midwest, where like you know, 102 00:06:16.800 --> 00:06:21.000 where sometimes very hard to exist, where people can be 103 00:06:21.240 --> 00:06:27.560 in isolation, where legends grow up around certain incidents, sometimes 104 00:06:27.600 --> 00:06:32.439 ghost stories, sometimes stories about how murders happened, unsolved murders 105 00:06:32.480 --> 00:06:36.120 and whatnot. So there's a special way that I think 106 00:06:36.199 --> 00:06:39.800 Midwesterners tend to tell stories and then pass them along, 107 00:06:40.319 --> 00:06:44.040 and I wanted to capture that kind of thing for Iowa. 108 00:06:47.480 --> 00:06:51.519 Let's just go through, maybe just a brief description of 109 00:06:51.560 --> 00:06:55.120 the stories, starting with mystery Boys, and before we delve 110 00:06:55.160 --> 00:06:58.759 into a couple specific stories that we're going to talk 111 00:06:58.800 --> 00:06:59.600 about this evening. 112 00:07:01.480 --> 00:07:05.759 Well, the Mystery Boy actually came from I was driving 113 00:07:05.839 --> 00:07:10.360 across from Michigan, actually another Midwestern state. I was driving 114 00:07:10.800 --> 00:07:13.399 there and I was listening to a podcast called Criminal 115 00:07:13.839 --> 00:07:17.800 and they had uh mentioned the uh the unique aspect 116 00:07:17.839 --> 00:07:21.000 of this story being that an eleven year old boy 117 00:07:21.120 --> 00:07:27.360 had murdered his parents and went to prison, but had 118 00:07:27.399 --> 00:07:33.439 the wherewithal to figure out how to to craft appeals 119 00:07:33.560 --> 00:07:36.360 and to get out of prison and actually end up 120 00:07:36.360 --> 00:07:39.120 doing very well for himself. So that was a really 121 00:07:39.120 --> 00:07:42.199 interesting story, and it was it was Iowa, so so 122 00:07:42.480 --> 00:07:45.920 for me that absolutely went into the collection because it's 123 00:07:45.920 --> 00:07:49.199 such a unique story. You don't hear about eleven year 124 00:07:49.199 --> 00:07:52.439 olds not only killing their families. I mean, I have 125 00:07:52.560 --> 00:07:55.120 heard of that a couple of other times, but you 126 00:07:55.160 --> 00:07:59.040 don't hear about, uh, somebody who ha who has the 127 00:07:59.160 --> 00:08:04.199 kind of person and the ability to teach himself things 128 00:08:04.240 --> 00:08:07.680 about the law and politics and whatnot and write these 129 00:08:07.720 --> 00:08:10.839 appeals for himself and he won people over. I thought 130 00:08:10.879 --> 00:08:14.399 that was a really interesting story. Some of the others, 131 00:08:14.560 --> 00:08:19.319 there's a mass murder on the campus grounds. There's a 132 00:08:19.360 --> 00:08:24.199 you know, a slaughter of some kids in sort of 133 00:08:24.240 --> 00:08:31.920 a hiking area that was pretty famous. Let's see say 134 00:08:31.959 --> 00:08:33.639 something about every single one of them, or do you 135 00:08:34.000 --> 00:08:35.679 do you want to just how do you want to 136 00:08:35.720 --> 00:08:36.039 do this? 137 00:08:37.519 --> 00:08:39.600 Well, we could just we could talk about some of 138 00:08:39.639 --> 00:08:44.120 them specifically. I think like we talked about Velliska, Iowa, 139 00:08:44.320 --> 00:08:47.679 and you said you had done some research before on 140 00:08:47.720 --> 00:08:51.559 this and this is a particularly horrifying story, So maybe 141 00:08:51.559 --> 00:08:55.120 we can talk about June twelfth, nineteen twelve in Velaska. 142 00:08:55.240 --> 00:08:59.519 And uh okay, Well that I mean when I was 143 00:08:59.559 --> 00:09:03.480 writing for the Crime Library, which was part of Court TV. 144 00:09:03.600 --> 00:09:07.679 When Court TV was around, the people at the Liska, 145 00:09:07.919 --> 00:09:11.960 which is currently run as a sort of a museum 146 00:09:12.039 --> 00:09:14.399 and some you can pay to stay overnight if you're 147 00:09:14.399 --> 00:09:18.399 a ghost hunter type of person who wants to experience 148 00:09:18.480 --> 00:09:24.200 the vibes. They had actually contacted my editor at the 149 00:09:24.240 --> 00:09:28.519 Crime Library and wanted the piece done, so they gave 150 00:09:28.559 --> 00:09:31.919 me a lot of materials to work with. And the 151 00:09:32.000 --> 00:09:35.399 point was it remains unsolved. Although there are certainly people 152 00:09:35.440 --> 00:09:38.320 who believe it solved because they have their own theories, 153 00:09:38.360 --> 00:09:43.039 which I mentioned in this in my rendering, it is 154 00:09:43.120 --> 00:09:47.679 currently unsolved. And although the theories are out there, like 155 00:09:47.759 --> 00:09:51.600 Jack the Ripper, you know, there's over three hundred people 156 00:09:51.919 --> 00:09:54.000 named for Jack the Ripper, and yet that is still 157 00:09:54.039 --> 00:09:56.519 not solved. But in the minds of the people who 158 00:09:56.559 --> 00:10:00.320 have their theories, it's solved. I wasn't convinced by any 159 00:10:00.320 --> 00:10:03.240 of the theories thus far, so to my mind, this 160 00:10:03.399 --> 00:10:07.679 still remains a really creepy murder where not just a 161 00:10:07.720 --> 00:10:12.000 family of six, but two young girls who were staying, 162 00:10:12.000 --> 00:10:14.759 you know, doing a sleepover with their friends were also 163 00:10:14.840 --> 00:10:19.559 slaughtered in this house by one person apparently with an axe, 164 00:10:19.919 --> 00:10:24.000 who had some peculiar habits like covering over the windows, 165 00:10:24.120 --> 00:10:28.159 and there was a you know, a hunk of bacon 166 00:10:29.080 --> 00:10:35.879 sitting out and the lamp, the glass cover for the 167 00:10:36.000 --> 00:10:38.879 lamps they were using, you know, seem to have been 168 00:10:39.080 --> 00:10:42.200 placed in an odd place, and there were just a 169 00:10:42.279 --> 00:10:45.919 number of strange elements of this crime. And also they 170 00:10:45.919 --> 00:10:50.559 didn't necessarily have any enemies, and even if, even if, 171 00:10:51.879 --> 00:10:55.360 you know, the father might have because he was a 172 00:10:55.399 --> 00:10:58.559 well to do men and he had he had a 173 00:10:58.720 --> 00:11:01.000 rival in business, and maybe he had some enemies, but 174 00:11:01.000 --> 00:11:05.639 why would you slaughter the whole family over something like that? 175 00:11:06.320 --> 00:11:10.200 So it's really a mystery. There was some sense that 176 00:11:11.000 --> 00:11:14.559 whoever had done this might have been spying on them 177 00:11:14.679 --> 00:11:18.559 from their own barn, because it was kind of it 178 00:11:18.559 --> 00:11:20.919 looked like there was an indentation in the hay and 179 00:11:21.000 --> 00:11:23.840 a little peep hole that would have given this person 180 00:11:24.159 --> 00:11:27.399 some pretty good sense of their movements. But it really 181 00:11:27.480 --> 00:11:32.120 wasn't about watching their movements and learning their routines and whatnot. 182 00:11:32.559 --> 00:11:36.159 He happened to come in very late at night on 183 00:11:36.200 --> 00:11:39.159 a Sunday after they'd all been to church for a 184 00:11:39.279 --> 00:11:43.519 special church program for the kids, and slaughtered them. So, 185 00:11:44.120 --> 00:11:47.679 for all we know, that was just simply you know, luck. 186 00:11:48.440 --> 00:11:51.679 He might or might he, or they might or might 187 00:11:51.720 --> 00:11:55.639 not be related to a number of other axe murders 188 00:11:55.720 --> 00:12:01.440 in neighboring states over a few years, and some of 189 00:12:01.480 --> 00:12:05.759 them had behavioral similarities such as the glass cover and 190 00:12:05.840 --> 00:12:10.759 the lamp and the way the house is entered, and 191 00:12:10.799 --> 00:12:16.000 things like that so possibly, even probably, I would say 192 00:12:16.600 --> 00:12:20.840 Bliska wasn't an isolated incident, probably has some relationship to 193 00:12:20.919 --> 00:12:24.120 a few of those. Does it have a relationship to 194 00:12:24.639 --> 00:12:29.440 fifty or sixty or two hundred, No, it doesn't, but 195 00:12:29.519 --> 00:12:32.639 people have certainly made it stretch to that many. 196 00:12:34.840 --> 00:12:37.639 You write about something very very interesting that I've never 197 00:12:37.840 --> 00:12:42.480 read before, a superstition, that something that happened in death 198 00:12:42.960 --> 00:12:46.399 involving the retina and the superstition. Please explain this. 199 00:12:49.000 --> 00:12:51.960 During a certain period of time, there was a notion 200 00:12:52.120 --> 00:12:55.919 that are you talking about the image left in the eye. Yes, 201 00:12:56.399 --> 00:13:01.600 you mean there was a certain idea that if if 202 00:13:01.600 --> 00:13:06.039 people saw their killer coming at them, that as they 203 00:13:06.039 --> 00:13:10.759 were dying, the retina would retain the killer's image, and 204 00:13:10.840 --> 00:13:14.440 so what needed to be done. And they did believe 205 00:13:14.480 --> 00:13:16.759 that one of the although the rest seemed to have 206 00:13:16.759 --> 00:13:20.039 been killed in their sleep, one of the girls appeared 207 00:13:20.039 --> 00:13:23.919 to have struggled a bit and there looked to be 208 00:13:24.039 --> 00:13:27.159 a l you know, the potential there for some sexual 209 00:13:27.159 --> 00:13:31.039 assault or moistation, and if she had her eyes open 210 00:13:31.120 --> 00:13:34.799 and as she was dying, the idea was that we 211 00:13:34.960 --> 00:13:38.840 could somehow get the image of the killer off her retina, 212 00:13:39.360 --> 00:13:42.440 that is a superstition. It's not true, but it was 213 00:13:42.919 --> 00:13:46.159 in the context of those times, people did think that 214 00:13:46.279 --> 00:13:47.159 was a possibility. 215 00:13:49.519 --> 00:13:54.759 With this case, this brought up again confessions and they 216 00:13:54.799 --> 00:13:58.639 thought they had the culprit at one point or some points. 217 00:14:00.000 --> 00:14:01.000 Tell us a little bit with that. 218 00:14:01.679 --> 00:14:08.080 Well, there was this really weird minister who confessed to 219 00:14:08.159 --> 00:14:10.879 the crimes. He went in and he heard about it. 220 00:14:10.879 --> 00:14:12.480 I think he was from a neighboring town, and he 221 00:14:12.679 --> 00:14:15.240 liked to ride the trains and whatnot, and he muttered 222 00:14:15.240 --> 00:14:17.639 a few things on the train to make people think 223 00:14:17.639 --> 00:14:19.720 that maybe he had something to do with it. And 224 00:14:19.759 --> 00:14:23.720 he went in and managed to get himself into the 225 00:14:23.720 --> 00:14:27.320 house while it was still being under investigation, which wasn't 226 00:14:27.440 --> 00:14:31.559 uncommon in those days. People tramped through murder scenes all 227 00:14:31.600 --> 00:14:34.600 the time, And so he did get himself into the 228 00:14:34.639 --> 00:14:37.440 house so he could see things, which of course means 229 00:14:37.440 --> 00:14:40.159 that if he's not the killer but he wants to confess, 230 00:14:40.799 --> 00:14:44.200 he would have seen the layout and seen where everything 231 00:14:44.200 --> 00:14:49.480 had happened, and heard law enforcement talking and whatnot. This 232 00:14:49.600 --> 00:14:54.080 also was really way before anybody from the FBI, for example, 233 00:14:55.039 --> 00:14:57.039 would have known what to do with something like this. 234 00:14:57.039 --> 00:14:59.879 This is a very unusual kind of crime in a 235 00:15:00.559 --> 00:15:03.559 in a town that's relatively quiet, where they really don't 236 00:15:03.600 --> 00:15:06.559 have much in the way of law enforcement that knows 237 00:15:06.600 --> 00:15:09.519 how to do murder investigations. So anyway, so this guy 238 00:15:10.879 --> 00:15:15.720 interesting kind of psychology are people who will falsely confess 239 00:15:15.799 --> 00:15:18.399 to things, and we've seen that a few times in 240 00:15:18.440 --> 00:15:21.679 our own time, like the guy John Mark Carr who 241 00:15:21.759 --> 00:15:24.519 wanted to be the one who killed John beIN a 242 00:15:24.720 --> 00:15:28.799 Ramsey even though he wasn't anywhere near the blades at 243 00:15:28.799 --> 00:15:32.360 the time. There are people who like to associate themselves 244 00:15:32.399 --> 00:15:36.559 with sensational crimes, and sometimes it's because they feel guilty 245 00:15:36.559 --> 00:15:40.000 over something else, or sometimes just because they get so 246 00:15:40.240 --> 00:15:45.519 excitable when something like this occurs that they just want 247 00:15:45.559 --> 00:15:47.960 to be part of it so much that they're willing 248 00:15:48.000 --> 00:15:51.320 to confess. Even when you have something like not just 249 00:15:51.399 --> 00:15:55.480 conviction but the death penalty in place, they still sometimes 250 00:15:55.559 --> 00:15:57.720 will falsely confess. We have a lot of research for 251 00:15:57.799 --> 00:16:01.559 that now to understan then the mindset of somebody who 252 00:16:01.639 --> 00:16:05.279 might do that. But anyway, so he you know, he 253 00:16:05.440 --> 00:16:09.080 was an odd guy. So that was that kind of 254 00:16:09.120 --> 00:16:12.960 made people realize maybe he's you know, he's not for real. 255 00:16:13.279 --> 00:16:19.320 And there were things that he didn't get right, and 256 00:16:19.559 --> 00:16:21.440 he couldn't have been there at the time he said 257 00:16:21.440 --> 00:16:25.080 he was there, et cetera, et cetera. That he then 258 00:16:25.519 --> 00:16:29.720 pretty much ended up not being He was the primary 259 00:16:29.720 --> 00:16:33.000 suspect for a while, but then in the end he 260 00:16:33.320 --> 00:16:36.519 wasn't the guy. But the fact that he confessed is 261 00:16:36.559 --> 00:16:39.679 so weird, and that continues to be something that people, 262 00:16:40.759 --> 00:16:41.960 you know, investigate today. 263 00:16:43.919 --> 00:16:47.519 And with this story, it doesn't end there because you say, 264 00:16:47.519 --> 00:16:49.960 there's another fan of the murders and a man named 265 00:16:50.000 --> 00:16:54.519 Andy Sawyer, and he also came under suspicion, and that 266 00:16:55.080 --> 00:17:00.679 this is in nineteen nineteen seventeen, So what happens with that? 267 00:17:00.960 --> 00:17:04.559 And then you talk about another another confession, because it's 268 00:17:04.599 --> 00:17:08.119 not just one confession. And after that, so tell. 269 00:17:08.039 --> 00:17:12.079 Us about this, Yeah, well we actually have. When you 270 00:17:12.160 --> 00:17:15.559 have a famous murder, and this obviously became quite quite 271 00:17:15.559 --> 00:17:18.960 famous and sensational, you do get a number of confessions. 272 00:17:18.960 --> 00:17:22.079 I would suspect wasn't just these two. I would think 273 00:17:22.079 --> 00:17:24.400 there's probably more that we just don't know about, because 274 00:17:25.160 --> 00:17:29.319 the Lindbergh kidnapping case, for example, had over two hundred confessions. 275 00:17:30.119 --> 00:17:34.319 The Black Dahlia had quite a few confessions even including 276 00:17:34.359 --> 00:17:36.559 a guy who had hadn't even been born at the 277 00:17:36.599 --> 00:17:40.599 time she was killed. So what is it that drives 278 00:17:40.640 --> 00:17:43.240 people to falsely confess, Well, they get it. They get 279 00:17:43.359 --> 00:17:49.599 very obsessed with something. They're already mentally unstable in some 280 00:17:49.720 --> 00:17:53.119 odd way. And this guy, Andy Siwyer that you mentioned, 281 00:17:54.039 --> 00:17:57.039 he'd purchase the newspaper with the headlines about the crime. 282 00:17:57.200 --> 00:18:01.279 So there there we go. He's he sees the big 283 00:18:01.440 --> 00:18:06.519 scary headlines. He liked to sleep with his acts, which is, 284 00:18:06.960 --> 00:18:09.319 I don't know, I think that's an odd habit. Maybe 285 00:18:09.400 --> 00:18:11.279 I'm wrong about that, but I think that's a very 286 00:18:11.279 --> 00:18:14.759 odd habit. And then he would start to kind of 287 00:18:14.839 --> 00:18:17.240 mumble about the murders. He already was kind of an 288 00:18:17.240 --> 00:18:22.319 odd guy. So odd people often come under suspicion is 289 00:18:22.519 --> 00:18:25.759 you know that they're you know, who knows what they're 290 00:18:25.799 --> 00:18:30.920 capable of doing? Kind of thing. He he got so involved, 291 00:18:31.039 --> 00:18:33.160 like after reading about in his paper, we got so 292 00:18:33.240 --> 00:18:37.200 involved that he actually would demonstrate reconstructions of how he 293 00:18:37.319 --> 00:18:39.240 think it might have happened, how the guy could have 294 00:18:39.279 --> 00:18:43.279 gotten away. So so someone like that is actually a 295 00:18:43.319 --> 00:18:47.839 pretty viable candidate because why is he why is he 296 00:18:48.039 --> 00:18:51.319 trying to show people how how this all took place, 297 00:18:51.359 --> 00:18:54.920 and how the killer might have gotten away. But there 298 00:18:55.000 --> 00:18:57.119 there really wasn't any evidence at all. Now I'm not 299 00:18:57.119 --> 00:19:02.119 going to say he's not the guy, but there wasn't 300 00:19:02.160 --> 00:19:05.119 anything that linked him to it, aside from his own 301 00:19:05.680 --> 00:19:10.519 kind of obsessed with his ruminations about it. 302 00:19:11.440 --> 00:19:15.720 But then you talk about a reverend JJ Burris from Oklahoma. 303 00:19:16.039 --> 00:19:18.319 He testified before a grand jury they he'd heard a 304 00:19:18.359 --> 00:19:22.240 confession in nineteen thirteen from a young blacksmith in Montana. 305 00:19:23.720 --> 00:19:24.200 Nothing case. 306 00:19:24.359 --> 00:19:28.799 Yeah, and that's similar to this whole confession thing, I 307 00:19:28.839 --> 00:19:34.039 mean the Lizzie Borden thing. The maid who had been 308 00:19:34.079 --> 00:19:37.839 in the Lizzie Bordon house and her deathbed supposedly confessed 309 00:19:37.920 --> 00:19:40.599 that she knew what had happened and that Lizzie had 310 00:19:40.599 --> 00:19:43.920 been in it, and why did it take her so long? Well, 311 00:19:44.440 --> 00:19:46.319 part of it. The reason it took her so long 312 00:19:46.440 --> 00:19:48.599 is she had made a money deal. I mean, they 313 00:19:48.599 --> 00:19:51.880 had paid her off to say nothing, and then finally 314 00:19:52.000 --> 00:19:54.519 she wanted to tell it to a minister who then 315 00:19:54.640 --> 00:19:57.480 later wrote the story and said she had confessed to him. 316 00:19:57.880 --> 00:20:02.000 So why are people confessing so long afterward? Well, first 317 00:20:02.000 --> 00:20:04.880 of all, all we have is this report. We don't 318 00:20:04.920 --> 00:20:09.160 know that this person didn't confess earlier. He might have 319 00:20:09.880 --> 00:20:13.240 and nobody took him seriously, or nobody reported it, or 320 00:20:13.279 --> 00:20:16.519 the reports were lost. So sometimes we get in this 321 00:20:16.680 --> 00:20:20.599 in the habit of thinking only only documents we have 322 00:20:20.680 --> 00:20:24.119 access to, that's that's the whole of the story, when 323 00:20:24.160 --> 00:20:27.039 in fact we don't know that he didn't confess earlier. 324 00:20:27.599 --> 00:20:32.119 But even if he didn't, that wouldn't matter, because people 325 00:20:32.200 --> 00:20:35.680 do get very caught up in these these kinds of cases. 326 00:20:35.839 --> 00:20:39.799 It's a mystery. People love solving them, people love having 327 00:20:39.880 --> 00:20:43.880 some association with them. I mean, we're having a lot 328 00:20:43.880 --> 00:20:46.160 of people now come out of the woodwork about you know, 329 00:20:46.240 --> 00:20:49.640 I met Ted Bundy along the roadway or or not. 330 00:20:49.960 --> 00:20:52.279 You know, how many years has it been since Ted Bundy? 331 00:20:52.319 --> 00:20:55.960 And suddenly people are starting to say, hey, I knew him. 332 00:20:56.720 --> 00:20:59.200 You know, you can get a book deal to saying 333 00:20:59.240 --> 00:21:01.400 you knew Ted Bundy basically. 334 00:21:01.519 --> 00:21:01.799 Sure. 335 00:21:02.200 --> 00:21:07.200 So it's an odd psychological thing that people get so 336 00:21:07.880 --> 00:21:13.079 attached to a particular story and then in some way 337 00:21:13.200 --> 00:21:17.279 think they either they're either responsible or they know someone 338 00:21:17.359 --> 00:21:20.960 who is responsible. But in this story, in this case, 339 00:21:21.359 --> 00:21:24.279 nothing came of it. I mean, he said he heard 340 00:21:24.279 --> 00:21:27.759 a confession from a young blacksmith. Well, where's who's who 341 00:21:27.880 --> 00:21:30.559 was it? Where is he? What? Did he say anything 342 00:21:30.640 --> 00:21:33.319 specific or was he just general? We don't know. We 343 00:21:33.359 --> 00:21:37.160 don't have details about it. 344 00:21:37.160 --> 00:21:40.480 It continues with other with another confession as well. But 345 00:21:40.519 --> 00:21:43.680 do you you talk about a a officer that gets 346 00:21:43.680 --> 00:21:49.960 involved mcclowry and he he puts a pattern together. You 347 00:21:50.119 --> 00:21:54.799 mentioned another jurisdictions that there's similar similarities to other murders, 348 00:21:55.039 --> 00:21:59.319 and especially in the idea of covering up the bodies, 349 00:21:59.319 --> 00:22:03.240 covering up the wind goes, and the idea of the lamps. 350 00:22:03.839 --> 00:22:07.039 So tell us a little bit about just this pattern 351 00:22:07.119 --> 00:22:09.079 that he thinks he has and then what he does 352 00:22:09.240 --> 00:22:11.519 with that assumption or that theory. 353 00:22:12.519 --> 00:22:17.599 Okay, well, he's doing what we call linkage analysis, long 354 00:22:17.720 --> 00:22:24.920 before behavioral profiling has ever even entered anyone's lips. So 355 00:22:26.359 --> 00:22:30.920 he's trying to figure out if these other axe murders 356 00:22:30.960 --> 00:22:35.000 in other jurisdictions. One's Colorado Springs where six were killed, 357 00:22:35.039 --> 00:22:39.440 and now there is an Illinois, another ones in Kansas, 358 00:22:40.000 --> 00:22:43.000 when there's actually several in Kansas. There were two in Kansas. 359 00:22:43.519 --> 00:22:47.079 There was one instance where it was two side by 360 00:22:47.160 --> 00:22:53.559 side houses and both houses everyone was killed. There were 361 00:22:53.599 --> 00:22:58.039 similarities there. So then that came from nineteen eleven to 362 00:22:58.359 --> 00:23:03.799 nineteen twelve and he heard about this guy, Henry Lee Moore, 363 00:23:03.880 --> 00:23:06.599 and Henry Lee Moore is actually the person a lot 364 00:23:06.640 --> 00:23:09.480 of people think is the killer. I just saw it 365 00:23:09.519 --> 00:23:12.640 in another book that he definitely is the killer, even 366 00:23:12.720 --> 00:23:16.160 though there's nothing proven that he's the killer, but quite 367 00:23:16.160 --> 00:23:19.160 a few people believe that. I think it's on Wikipedia 368 00:23:19.200 --> 00:23:23.160 that way and whatnot. Anyway, so Moore had killed his 369 00:23:23.440 --> 00:23:26.400 mother and grandmother with an axe because he wanted to 370 00:23:26.440 --> 00:23:29.599 inherit the house because he had promised it to some 371 00:23:30.359 --> 00:23:34.480 woman that he had gotten involved with it. So because 372 00:23:34.599 --> 00:23:37.680 he had used an axe, which by the way, was 373 00:23:37.839 --> 00:23:40.160 very common in those days as a murder weapon, that 374 00:23:40.240 --> 00:23:43.559 wasn't in any way than usual. So because he was 375 00:23:44.000 --> 00:23:47.559 he had murdered with an ax, he was convicted. This 376 00:23:47.799 --> 00:23:51.400 mcclathory decided that he had to be the guy. He 377 00:23:51.480 --> 00:23:53.759 knew that Moore had been or had kind of wandered 378 00:23:53.799 --> 00:23:56.839 around and you know, been in some of these other states. 379 00:23:56.960 --> 00:24:01.200 So if he could be tied to them, that would 380 00:24:01.200 --> 00:24:05.480 close twenty six cases. The only thing is it wasn't 381 00:24:05.480 --> 00:24:10.440 a very good linkage analysis, because really, the way Moore 382 00:24:10.559 --> 00:24:14.759 went about killing his mother and grandmother, I mean, first 383 00:24:14.759 --> 00:24:16.880 of all, he faked his name, and he stayed in 384 00:24:17.200 --> 00:24:22.039 a hotel under a false name, and his whole approach 385 00:24:22.119 --> 00:24:26.279 to it wasn't like this sneaky entering at night and 386 00:24:26.319 --> 00:24:31.599 then exiting. There was very little in common between how 387 00:24:31.640 --> 00:24:34.079 he had actually killed his mother and grandmother and the 388 00:24:34.119 --> 00:24:36.720 way these other murders were carried out, aside from it 389 00:24:36.799 --> 00:24:40.720 being an axe. But mcclawfree was convinced, even though he 390 00:24:40.720 --> 00:24:43.759 couldn't get more to confess, he was convinced he had 391 00:24:43.799 --> 00:24:47.599 the right guy, and he tried to present this but 392 00:24:48.680 --> 00:24:54.240 nobody in Valliska was interested. So nothing really happened with 393 00:24:54.319 --> 00:24:57.640 this case to tie it to more. Even though he 394 00:24:57.680 --> 00:25:01.720 had the same last name as the you know, JB. Moore, 395 00:25:01.799 --> 00:25:05.240 the murder victim, they had no relationship to each other. 396 00:25:07.720 --> 00:25:11.440 And you continue to write that there's other people the 397 00:25:12.279 --> 00:25:16.759 father daughter, author of sports actual writer decided to take 398 00:25:16.839 --> 00:25:21.119 upon this and as you write in the book, come 399 00:25:21.200 --> 00:25:26.200 to conclusions that they shouldn't have come to and make assumptions. 400 00:25:26.640 --> 00:25:29.640 Tell us about what they ended up writing about. 401 00:25:30.759 --> 00:25:34.880