1
00:00:03,799 --> 00:00:07,960
Speaker 1: All right, welcome everybody. We are live and I'm joined

2
00:00:08,080 --> 00:00:11,119
by my good friend Kai, And of course it is

3
00:00:11,720 --> 00:00:17,239
that season. Christ has risen. Hopefully everybody is celebrating. It

4
00:00:17,320 --> 00:00:21,559
is a celebratory time and hopefully you had a good

5
00:00:21,600 --> 00:00:24,239
pasca Kai. How you been, dude?

6
00:00:25,640 --> 00:00:28,480
Speaker 2: Pretty good, Jay, Glory to God. Things have been well.

7
00:00:28,760 --> 00:00:31,120
Some things in my personal life have changed, as.

8
00:00:31,640 --> 00:00:31,960
Speaker 1: You know.

9
00:00:34,039 --> 00:00:34,399
Speaker 2: There.

10
00:00:34,439 --> 00:00:36,439
Speaker 1: Congratulations, thanks so much.

11
00:00:36,679 --> 00:00:40,439
Speaker 2: Yeah, so that's probably why you guys haven't seen me

12
00:00:40,840 --> 00:00:44,439
as active as I used to be, Just basically adjusting

13
00:00:44,479 --> 00:00:47,960
to a new way of life, other priorities, but slowly

14
00:00:48,000 --> 00:00:51,560
as things are kind of stabilizing in that regard.

15
00:00:52,200 --> 00:00:54,520
Speaker 1: I drink pellegrino to your marriage.

16
00:00:55,039 --> 00:00:58,399
Speaker 2: Thank you, Yeah, thank you very nice.

17
00:01:00,079 --> 00:01:00,240
Speaker 1: Yeah.

18
00:01:00,320 --> 00:01:03,320
Speaker 2: No, things have been well. Just getting back into the

19
00:01:03,320 --> 00:01:08,519
apologetics scene now. I'm gonna start up definitely those series

20
00:01:08,560 --> 00:01:11,719
that you, David and I did with regards to the

21
00:01:11,760 --> 00:01:14,799
Orientals and the Historians that was just kind of temporarily

22
00:01:14,799 --> 00:01:18,040
put on hold. We're definitely going to be coming back

23
00:01:18,040 --> 00:01:21,519
to those. We are nowhere near done that series. I

24
00:01:21,560 --> 00:01:25,760
know people are asking for more content. Be patient. We

25
00:01:25,840 --> 00:01:29,840
will definitely be delivering more content in the near future

26
00:01:30,840 --> 00:01:33,920
than we're still looking to do Lewis and myself North

27
00:01:33,959 --> 00:01:38,719
Drockshot and more stuff on Islam and just in general,

28
00:01:38,799 --> 00:01:43,200
more collabse with the Orthodox online. Yeah, things have been.

29
00:01:43,040 --> 00:01:46,040
Speaker 1: Good, perfect. So today we're going to talk about something

30
00:01:46,079 --> 00:01:51,560
that is kind of adjacent to our Oriental's lecture series

31
00:01:51,599 --> 00:01:55,040
that we've been doing, and it's not formally part of

32
00:01:55,079 --> 00:01:57,200
the series, but it does relate to it, because we

33
00:01:57,239 --> 00:02:04,719
want to give our assessment of the idea of Apostolic

34
00:02:04,799 --> 00:02:09,680
Christianity that is somehow spread across the groups that believe

35
00:02:09,719 --> 00:02:13,520
in Apostolic succession, and this form of ecumenism needs to

36
00:02:13,520 --> 00:02:16,319
be addressed. And of course it deals with as probably

37
00:02:16,400 --> 00:02:20,960
many of you know, Sam Shamun himself and others in

38
00:02:21,000 --> 00:02:24,879
his circle. So Kai also has an experience that he's

39
00:02:24,919 --> 00:02:26,840
had with Sam that he wants to get into, and

40
00:02:26,840 --> 00:02:29,879
then maybe we'll get into the ecumenist elements of this

41
00:02:30,039 --> 00:02:32,280
sort of failed ecclesiology. Do you want to start with

42
00:02:32,319 --> 00:02:34,400
your experience with Sam?

43
00:02:34,439 --> 00:02:36,719
Speaker 2: Sure? I can definitely go into that. Yeah, So the

44
00:02:36,759 --> 00:02:38,680
stream is going to be a little bit of mix

45
00:02:38,800 --> 00:02:42,080
of Sam directly, my experiences with Sam, what I know

46
00:02:42,159 --> 00:02:46,520
about Sam and him personally, and then also just the

47
00:02:46,520 --> 00:02:51,080
topic of ecumunism proper, where we find problems with it,

48
00:02:51,120 --> 00:02:57,280
and how you can see Sam basically trying to promote

49
00:02:57,319 --> 00:03:01,280
the idea of ecumenism and why this is quiteus So

50
00:03:01,919 --> 00:03:04,800
my relationship with Sam stretches back a few years. I

51
00:03:04,800 --> 00:03:07,120
don't really know exactly what is it, three years, four years,

52
00:03:07,159 --> 00:03:12,199
don't know, wasn't really counting. But at some point Sam

53
00:03:12,639 --> 00:03:16,520
was in contact with a lot of the Orthodox in

54
00:03:16,560 --> 00:03:18,759
the circle that I was in with, like you j

55
00:03:19,879 --> 00:03:24,599
with Lewis and some other people, and was having an

56
00:03:24,599 --> 00:03:29,159
influence on un Orthodox a lot of other denominations as well,

57
00:03:29,240 --> 00:03:35,120
quote unquote denominations. And he came out and basically said

58
00:03:35,120 --> 00:03:38,039
that he became a member of the Assyrian Church of

59
00:03:38,120 --> 00:03:42,680
the East, which is obviously Nestorian. A lot of people

60
00:03:42,719 --> 00:03:44,960
will say, no, it's not a Nestorian and stuff. We

61
00:03:45,039 --> 00:03:48,240
have our whole talk of why the Church of the

62
00:03:48,280 --> 00:03:51,479
East is a historian. But nevertheless, at that time I

63
00:03:51,560 --> 00:03:56,039
called Sam out on this. I didn't really have an

64
00:03:56,120 --> 00:03:59,479
all too good relationship with Sam at the time. There

65
00:03:59,520 --> 00:04:02,599
may have been some interactions here and there, but there

66
00:04:02,599 --> 00:04:06,159
were not really any good substantive relations and I just

67
00:04:06,199 --> 00:04:08,840
wanted to call him out given the influence that he

68
00:04:09,000 --> 00:04:13,439
has on his platform, and he didn't take well to that.

69
00:04:14,080 --> 00:04:17,800
He just took it as a personal attack. He bashed me.

70
00:04:17,920 --> 00:04:20,399
You can go on the streams and see in the

71
00:04:20,519 --> 00:04:24,160
history there where he basically took a very combative approach.

72
00:04:24,800 --> 00:04:28,800
And people, many people had approached me, and they who

73
00:04:28,879 --> 00:04:32,279
knew Sam, who have been friends with Sam, or friends

74
00:04:32,360 --> 00:04:35,000
or just friendly or have known him for quite some time,

75
00:04:35,040 --> 00:04:37,720
and they were counseling me saying, this is not the

76
00:04:37,759 --> 00:04:40,480
way to get through to Sam. You have to take

77
00:04:40,519 --> 00:04:45,439
a different approach with him. You cannot be direct and combative.

78
00:04:46,680 --> 00:04:52,800
You need to really be kind, loving, patient, and you

79
00:04:52,920 --> 00:04:57,519
just need to basically foster an atmosphere of dialogue with

80
00:04:57,680 --> 00:05:01,199
him if you want to get through to him. And

81
00:05:01,279 --> 00:05:07,560
so taking the counsel of people, I backtracked my aggressiveness

82
00:05:07,560 --> 00:05:11,439
with regards to calling him out and attempted to make

83
00:05:11,480 --> 00:05:16,319
amends with him and to basically treat him in a

84
00:05:16,399 --> 00:05:21,279
kind way, teach him orthodoxy proper, make him see the

85
00:05:21,439 --> 00:05:24,600
errors of the Church of the East and the theology.

86
00:05:25,000 --> 00:05:27,399
And at that point I was convinced that he didn't

87
00:05:27,439 --> 00:05:31,560
really understand the theology proper, He didn't really know what

88
00:05:31,839 --> 00:05:36,040
he was getting into that his joining the Church of

89
00:05:36,040 --> 00:05:40,959
the East was really something that was emotional. It was

90
00:05:41,040 --> 00:05:45,399
not knowledge, because there's no way that you can say

91
00:05:45,439 --> 00:05:48,000
certain things that Sam was saying in terms of what

92
00:05:48,120 --> 00:05:52,360
he holds to certain aspects of Christology. Even though he

93
00:05:52,439 --> 00:05:56,199
does have errors in his triology and Christology, there are

94
00:05:56,240 --> 00:05:59,560
certain things that he says that are correct, and those things,

95
00:05:59,600 --> 00:06:02,319
if he's holding to that and believes in that, it's

96
00:06:02,360 --> 00:06:06,439
irreconcilable with the Church of the East's position. They're not saying,

97
00:06:06,480 --> 00:06:09,079
we're not saying the same thing. And so I knew

98
00:06:09,199 --> 00:06:13,240
right away that he was not intellectually adept to be

99
00:06:13,279 --> 00:06:15,920
able to see these things, and so I wanted to

100
00:06:15,959 --> 00:06:18,800
teach him. I wanted to coach him and instruct him

101
00:06:18,839 --> 00:06:23,759
to basically understand what he was getting into. And so

102
00:06:23,879 --> 00:06:28,120
Sam and I we developed a very close relationship behind

103
00:06:28,120 --> 00:06:32,399
the scenes. We would talk quite a bit privately. I

104
00:06:32,439 --> 00:06:35,040
would join a lot of times his dreams contribute to

105
00:06:35,199 --> 00:06:38,879
his dreams the teachings that people were hearing from him.

106
00:06:39,120 --> 00:06:42,399
I was always presenting the Orthodox position, So whatever Sam

107
00:06:42,519 --> 00:06:45,360
was talking about, I would chime in and say, this

108
00:06:45,439 --> 00:06:48,199
is what the Orthodox believe, or I can affirm yes,

109
00:06:48,600 --> 00:06:51,800
this is Sam is correct, This is patristic, like he's

110
00:06:51,839 --> 00:06:54,600
not erroneous on everything. So I want people to know

111
00:06:54,639 --> 00:06:57,240
that that there is a lot of good that comes

112
00:06:57,240 --> 00:07:00,000
from him. He does speak a lot of truthful things,

113
00:07:00,480 --> 00:07:04,519
but it's that one percent of poison that is enough

114
00:07:04,560 --> 00:07:08,079
to poison the entire well. And so that's kind of

115
00:07:08,079 --> 00:07:10,759
where we're at right now, where it's reached a point

116
00:07:10,800 --> 00:07:14,439
where with my interactions with Sam over two three years,

117
00:07:15,240 --> 00:07:19,360
this person is not interested in learning. Despite what he

118
00:07:19,600 --> 00:07:23,000
said the benefit of the doubt that we gave him,

119
00:07:23,079 --> 00:07:25,920
that he's on this journey he's going to find the

120
00:07:26,000 --> 00:07:31,279
church that speaks most truthfully to him, and that he

121
00:07:31,399 --> 00:07:33,800
really wants to know the issues. He really wants to

122
00:07:33,800 --> 00:07:39,360
go down into the issues. That's a lie. He absolutely

123
00:07:39,560 --> 00:07:43,720
is not willing to take the time to actually learn.

124
00:07:44,199 --> 00:07:47,959
What he is doing is he has preconceived notions and

125
00:07:48,040 --> 00:07:51,480
he's just sifting through what people are telling him and

126
00:07:51,519 --> 00:07:53,519
what he comes across in some of the stuff that

127
00:07:53,560 --> 00:07:56,680
he's reading that affirms him. So he's basically looking like

128
00:07:56,680 --> 00:07:59,959
for a confirmation bias for the position that he wants

129
00:08:00,160 --> 00:08:03,800
actually hold to. He's not interested in learning about Orthodoxy,

130
00:08:04,040 --> 00:08:08,759
He doesn't care about being catechised or instructed. And that's

131
00:08:08,800 --> 00:08:11,879
one of the big problems with Sam is in order

132
00:08:11,920 --> 00:08:14,759
to enter the Orthodox Church, you have to be catechized.

133
00:08:15,360 --> 00:08:19,759
You have to be receptive to being told you are wrong.

134
00:08:20,519 --> 00:08:23,160
Speaker 1: It's a reboot. You got to reboot and start over.

135
00:08:23,319 --> 00:08:26,199
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, it is a reboot. It is not just

136
00:08:26,600 --> 00:08:28,759
changing a few things that you kind of brought on

137
00:08:28,959 --> 00:08:32,639
as baggage. This is a complete destruction of your existing

138
00:08:32,720 --> 00:08:35,799
worldview and you have to build a new foundation and

139
00:08:36,039 --> 00:08:39,399
start from scratch. And Sam is not the type of

140
00:08:39,440 --> 00:08:43,759
person who will take well to that. He is he

141
00:08:43,799 --> 00:08:46,879
has been for a very long time teaching people, and

142
00:08:47,000 --> 00:08:49,440
he is not willing to become the student as much

143
00:08:49,440 --> 00:08:51,759
as you may think he says he wants to be

144
00:08:51,799 --> 00:08:54,639
the student that he wants to learn. No, he wants

145
00:08:54,639 --> 00:08:58,440
to teach. And if you do not go along with

146
00:08:58,600 --> 00:09:02,679
what he is teaching you, you will get the stick.

147
00:09:03,039 --> 00:09:05,759
He will start pounding on you. What.

148
00:09:06,159 --> 00:09:08,559
Speaker 1: Yeah, before you said that, I would add just to

149
00:09:08,600 --> 00:09:12,000
throw in that it was a very similar move in

150
00:09:12,080 --> 00:09:15,240
terms of his argumentation. And I was in the background

151
00:09:15,240 --> 00:09:18,480
there as well. You were first doing a lot more

152
00:09:18,559 --> 00:09:20,799
work with Sam, maybe three or four years ago than

153
00:09:20,879 --> 00:09:25,360
I was, And I remember then it was well, Assyrian

154
00:09:25,480 --> 00:09:27,600
Church of the East, it's all good, we're all cool,

155
00:09:27,720 --> 00:09:31,200
because you know that's my background. That's what I feel

156
00:09:31,279 --> 00:09:33,440
is right for me. It's my heritage. Is this is

157
00:09:33,480 --> 00:09:36,200
that bad reasons? And then when it's well, I go

158
00:09:36,200 --> 00:09:38,200
to the Catholic Church now because they'll get me communion,

159
00:09:38,679 --> 00:09:40,960
and a bunch of mystical things happened, and I met

160
00:09:41,039 --> 00:09:45,000
cool people that had to be God's miraculous Catholic problems.

161
00:09:45,080 --> 00:09:48,240
So there's a bad reasons, it's the point I'm getting at. Yeah,

162
00:09:48,440 --> 00:09:51,120
in both cases it was bad reasons. And he would

163
00:09:51,120 --> 00:09:52,960
even say at times, well, I'm not going to go

164
00:09:53,000 --> 00:09:54,759
to the Orthodox Church because they're not going to give

165
00:09:54,799 --> 00:09:56,600
me communion. In other words, I have to start over

166
00:09:56,679 --> 00:09:57,559
and be catechized.

167
00:09:58,759 --> 00:10:02,039
Speaker 2: That's right exactly the and he has pointed that out.

168
00:10:02,080 --> 00:10:04,480
He's like, the Orthodox are very strict, they will not

169
00:10:04,600 --> 00:10:08,799
give him communion. So he knows about that, and he's

170
00:10:08,919 --> 00:10:10,799
I think the kind of person he has a kind

171
00:10:10,799 --> 00:10:13,399
of temperament that he doesn't want to wait. He's not patient,

172
00:10:13,440 --> 00:10:17,840
he doesn't want to go through through the hoops. He

173
00:10:17,960 --> 00:10:20,519
just wants something that is going to satisfy his inquiry

174
00:10:20,639 --> 00:10:25,120
right now, and he's finding that in Roman Catholicism. So

175
00:10:25,799 --> 00:10:29,720
it's definitely not an intellectual way of looking at things.

176
00:10:30,240 --> 00:10:32,919
But one of the things that when he was going

177
00:10:32,960 --> 00:10:37,320
into the Church of the East was he left Protestantism,

178
00:10:37,840 --> 00:10:41,960
and even early in those times, he was starting to

179
00:10:43,240 --> 00:10:47,200
kind of talk about this Apostolic Christianity type thing where

180
00:10:47,360 --> 00:10:52,879
he's recognizing Apostolic churches. He's saying that the fullness of

181
00:10:52,919 --> 00:10:56,120
the truth can be found in the Apostolic churches in

182
00:10:56,159 --> 00:11:02,080
the Apostolic tradition, and he names them explicitly as Roman Catholicism, Orthodoxy,

183
00:11:02,519 --> 00:11:05,159
the Orientals, and the Church of the East. These are

184
00:11:05,159 --> 00:11:09,519
all the ancient churches. And the way he likes to

185
00:11:09,559 --> 00:11:12,080
frame it, and I think this is a very very

186
00:11:12,200 --> 00:11:16,080
terrible way to frame it, and I disagree with it completely,

187
00:11:16,679 --> 00:11:19,720
is the analogy he gives is if you think of

188
00:11:20,200 --> 00:11:23,840
like a dollar bill, so some of these churches have

189
00:11:24,039 --> 00:11:27,879
more fullness of that dollar. So let's say if Orthodoxy

190
00:11:28,159 --> 00:11:32,879
has one dollar's worth, Roman Catholicism might have ninety cents

191
00:11:32,879 --> 00:11:37,200
worth of the dollar, the Orientals might have seventy, and

192
00:11:37,279 --> 00:11:38,919
the Church these might have fifty or something like that.

193
00:11:39,039 --> 00:11:42,360
So it's like you have these bits of truths in

194
00:11:42,519 --> 00:11:45,320
all of them, but they're all kind of making up

195
00:11:45,360 --> 00:11:50,200
the same currency, and so it's they're all valid. It's

196
00:11:50,240 --> 00:11:53,440
just really which one of these is going to give

197
00:11:53,440 --> 00:11:56,559
you the most fullness of that truth that you're seeking

198
00:11:56,960 --> 00:12:02,559
and that will satisfy your personal journey. So, for example,

199
00:12:02,799 --> 00:12:05,360
if the fifty percent that you can find in the

200
00:12:05,440 --> 00:12:08,840
Church of the East is sufficient for you, because that

201
00:12:08,879 --> 00:12:13,279
fifty percent meets your standards and you're happy as a

202
00:12:13,360 --> 00:12:16,399
layperson to stay at that level, then go to the

203
00:12:16,919 --> 00:12:19,120
here in Church of the East. If you're a little

204
00:12:19,159 --> 00:12:23,159
bit more intellectual, you need a little bit more depth, okay,

205
00:12:23,240 --> 00:12:26,120
maybe go to the Orientals or go to the Roman Catholics.

206
00:12:26,600 --> 00:12:30,120
That will satisfy your inquiry because these are all valid churches.

207
00:12:30,240 --> 00:12:33,600
It's just really more of where you're personally comfortable, and

208
00:12:33,639 --> 00:12:36,639
if you want like the absolute truth, go to the

209
00:12:36,799 --> 00:12:39,519
Orthodox Church. I mean, it's kind of ironic that he

210
00:12:39,600 --> 00:12:42,879
seems to treat the Orthodox Church as having the most

211
00:12:42,919 --> 00:12:46,080
fullness of the faith, but yet he's reluctant to come

212
00:12:46,320 --> 00:12:50,159
to Orthodoxy. But nevertheless that analogy, that's the way he's

213
00:12:50,480 --> 00:12:58,480
been presenting his conception of Apostolic Christianity and the Apostolic churches. Now,

214
00:12:59,000 --> 00:13:02,159
during this time I'm with Sam, over the course of

215
00:13:02,200 --> 00:13:05,039
two three years, I'm biting my tongue a lot of

216
00:13:05,039 --> 00:13:09,919
the times. I'm restraining myself because as people counsel me

217
00:13:10,159 --> 00:13:14,279
over and over again, be patient with Sam, Be patient

218
00:13:14,320 --> 00:13:17,799
with Sam, teach him. And that's what I tried to do.

219
00:13:18,320 --> 00:13:21,519
I would give him sources to read. I would try

220
00:13:21,519 --> 00:13:24,919
to engage him in dialogue. I would try to explain

221
00:13:25,039 --> 00:13:27,879
things to him. A lot of times we would just

222
00:13:27,960 --> 00:13:32,159
have personal skype calls. Sometimes they would just be direct messages.

223
00:13:33,080 --> 00:13:34,600
I would send him a list, Hey, if you want

224
00:13:34,639 --> 00:13:37,279
to understand these, look at the list of this stuff.

225
00:13:37,440 --> 00:13:37,759
Read it.

226
00:13:37,840 --> 00:13:40,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, I had the same thing. I've sent many links,

227
00:13:40,399 --> 00:13:44,840
many you know recommendations, many you know clips, many you

228
00:13:44,879 --> 00:13:48,960
know copy paste snippets. I don't think any of those

229
00:13:49,039 --> 00:13:50,720
ever set in.

230
00:13:51,559 --> 00:13:54,279
Speaker 2: No, they they never set in. And it was just

231
00:13:54,399 --> 00:14:01,120
basically the making absolute no headway with him. And then

232
00:14:01,679 --> 00:14:05,720
it culminated now your experiences with him, and just having

233
00:14:05,799 --> 00:14:09,360
my absence away from the apologetics scene for a while,

234
00:14:09,639 --> 00:14:13,480
and then that whole mix up with the stream the

235
00:14:13,720 --> 00:14:17,799
streams that we were doing for the Orientals series, which

236
00:14:17,879 --> 00:14:21,000
I initially was going to do that on Sam's channel, right,

237
00:14:21,679 --> 00:14:26,440
and Sam just kept delaying it, delaying it, delaying it,

238
00:14:26,600 --> 00:14:28,720
delaying it. And I have the messages to prove it.

239
00:14:29,039 --> 00:14:33,360
He admits to being at fault for delaying the appearance

240
00:14:33,360 --> 00:14:36,440
of those streams. I was ready when I had initially

241
00:14:36,559 --> 00:14:39,519
said the time frame that I wanted to come on.

242
00:14:40,080 --> 00:14:43,279
He delayed it, delayed, delayed it, delayed, and he was

243
00:14:43,360 --> 00:14:47,759
giving very dumb reasons. The guy can go and do

244
00:14:47,840 --> 00:14:51,480
streams for three hours every single night, and he's giving

245
00:14:51,480 --> 00:14:54,639
me dumb reasons for not doing the stream with this.

246
00:14:54,679 --> 00:14:59,639
With regards to the Orientals, obviously he did not want

247
00:14:59,639 --> 00:15:02,320
me to come there and start basically starting a war

248
00:15:02,399 --> 00:15:05,919
with all these other Apostolic churches that he's trying to promote,

249
00:15:06,279 --> 00:15:10,159
because this is now just basically him being a conduit

250
00:15:10,559 --> 00:15:17,120
for presenting theology that is in contradiction to what he

251
00:15:17,159 --> 00:15:20,480
wants to espouse. And so it just reached that point

252
00:15:20,480 --> 00:15:23,840
where it's like, Okay, it's clear he doesn't want to

253
00:15:23,879 --> 00:15:26,279
delve into this issue and he's not serious about it.

254
00:15:26,799 --> 00:15:29,840
So I approached you Jay, and I said, Jay, let's

255
00:15:29,840 --> 00:15:32,559
do it on your channel. And I'm glad that we

256
00:15:32,639 --> 00:15:37,240
did that because it led us to just do it

257
00:15:37,279 --> 00:15:42,720
on our timeframe. With you, me and David. We're unrestrained.

258
00:15:42,919 --> 00:15:46,320
We can freely speak what we want to say with

259
00:15:46,360 --> 00:15:49,200
regards to Ecumunism. We're not going to hold back. We're

260
00:15:49,240 --> 00:15:52,399
not going to have any concerns that we're going to

261
00:15:52,480 --> 00:15:56,159
insult the audience because oh they're Roman Catholic or so.

262
00:15:56,240 --> 00:15:58,440
It's like, if you get insulted, that's your problem. We're

263
00:15:58,440 --> 00:16:00,600
going to speak the truth. And if you're insulted the truth,

264
00:16:00,919 --> 00:16:04,159
that's on you, that's not on us. And so that's

265
00:16:04,159 --> 00:16:07,360
where we started and that's basically where my break came

266
00:16:07,679 --> 00:16:11,360
with Sam. And when we started our streams, I kind

267
00:16:11,360 --> 00:16:15,879
of made some comments with regards to the Orientals, who

268
00:16:15,960 --> 00:16:19,120
I don't really look too favorably upon. These people are

269
00:16:19,200 --> 00:16:23,720
very vicious. They attack Orthodox constantly, and.

270
00:16:24,480 --> 00:16:27,919
Speaker 1: Up with anyone Protestant or Catholic to do that.

271
00:16:28,120 --> 00:16:33,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, the Orientals they hate Orthodox more than they

272
00:16:33,519 --> 00:16:37,440
hate Muslims. And this is if you interact with them

273
00:16:37,799 --> 00:16:40,840
to any extended period of time, you will see this.

274
00:16:41,559 --> 00:16:45,279
The Orientals hate Orthodox like this is a hate. This

275
00:16:45,399 --> 00:16:48,720
is not a dislike. This is an absolute hate and

276
00:16:49,000 --> 00:16:52,799
they really love Muslims more than they love us, and

277
00:16:53,080 --> 00:16:55,840
it's sad that that is the state of affairs. But

278
00:16:56,000 --> 00:17:00,279
basically I made my own remarks with regards to them

279
00:17:00,720 --> 00:17:05,440
that is fairly stern, and Sam jumped on this and

280
00:17:05,640 --> 00:17:07,880
he just made me out to be the devil. And

281
00:17:07,920 --> 00:17:10,319
look at the way Kai is talking and this and

282
00:17:10,359 --> 00:17:12,480
that and whatever. At this point, I don't really care.

283
00:17:12,720 --> 00:17:15,440
My relationship with Sam is more or less now non

284
00:17:15,480 --> 00:17:20,359
existent because I see it's a futile, futile effort. And

285
00:17:20,440 --> 00:17:25,960
so you have the incident with you then blowing up

286
00:17:26,000 --> 00:17:29,480
and then Sam coming after you because what you challenged

287
00:17:29,559 --> 00:17:33,599
him to a debate like this is ridiculous.

288
00:17:33,799 --> 00:17:37,359
Speaker 1: Well, let's be clear. So I don't think you knew this,

289
00:17:37,559 --> 00:17:41,039
But already in the background, we had for many weeks,

290
00:17:41,079 --> 00:17:44,319
in maybe even a few months, been discussing the possibility

291
00:17:44,319 --> 00:17:47,960
of doing some sort of roundtable discussion. Yeah, originally that

292
00:17:48,079 --> 00:17:50,279
was going to be on Sam's channel, and the idea

293
00:17:50,440 --> 00:17:54,759
was to have me a couple other people you, Lewis

294
00:17:54,920 --> 00:17:57,319
Ubi whoever was willing to come on, and then it

295
00:17:57,359 --> 00:18:01,559
would be on the other side all brack Yasi and

296
00:18:01,640 --> 00:18:05,759
whoever else, and it sounded good at first, and then

297
00:18:06,200 --> 00:18:08,680
it kind of got postponed. The first it was, oh,

298
00:18:08,839 --> 00:18:10,960
Albert can't do it. Then it was Yasi can't do it.

299
00:18:11,000 --> 00:18:14,440
He's got kids or family or something, and then Ubi

300
00:18:14,480 --> 00:18:16,920
can't do it. I'm not making excuses. I'm just saying

301
00:18:16,920 --> 00:18:18,559
like Ubi wasn't able to because he had to do

302
00:18:18,599 --> 00:18:21,960
the Ybarro debate. But the bar debate got postponed. Then

303
00:18:21,960 --> 00:18:25,039
everybody said, well, it needs to be after December, maybe

304
00:18:25,079 --> 00:18:28,920
into January. So everybody legitimately had a bunch of stuff

305
00:18:29,000 --> 00:18:31,319
going on. It wasn't people trying to get out of it.

306
00:18:31,400 --> 00:18:36,480
But then eventually Ubi's own personal interactions with Albrecht. He

307
00:18:36,559 --> 00:18:38,400
had a really hard time trying to get Albert to

308
00:18:38,440 --> 00:18:41,440
do anything, nailing him down on any dates or anything.

309
00:18:42,079 --> 00:18:44,400
And then Ubi finally told me, I'm not going on

310
00:18:44,440 --> 00:18:46,640
your panel because i don't care about Sam and I'm

311
00:18:46,640 --> 00:18:50,319
not interested in interactions with Albret because he just always

312
00:18:50,359 --> 00:18:52,440
postpones it and never gives you a set date and

313
00:18:52,440 --> 00:18:55,240
he always whins and bitches about the terms of the debate.

314
00:18:55,559 --> 00:18:58,400
So Ubi was just like, I'm not interested. So that

315
00:18:58,519 --> 00:19:00,400
left me like kind of looking for the pop stability

316
00:19:00,440 --> 00:19:03,119
of other people. That didn't look like that was ever

317
00:19:03,160 --> 00:19:07,799
going to happen. And so Sam was doing a discussion

318
00:19:07,920 --> 00:19:11,640
about Protestant views of the Trinity and who was the

319
00:19:11,640 --> 00:19:14,799
best amongst the Protestants. And I was messaging Sam at

320
00:19:14,839 --> 00:19:17,680
the time, and I just said something like, well, I'm

321
00:19:17,720 --> 00:19:20,079
not really a big fan of any of the Protestant

322
00:19:20,079 --> 00:19:22,759
models of the Trinity. So I said, why don't you

323
00:19:23,039 --> 00:19:26,720
and all Bracts come on my channel and we'll finally

324
00:19:26,720 --> 00:19:29,279
have this discussion. And I said, it was very polite,

325
00:19:29,359 --> 00:19:32,200
just a simple DM. We can do it even with

326
00:19:32,279 --> 00:19:36,000
time responses. That way, nobody talks over anyone, nobody gets mad.

327
00:19:36,799 --> 00:19:39,039
It's you know, you talk for five minutes. I talked

328
00:19:39,039 --> 00:19:40,839
for five minutes, you talk for ten minutes. You know

329
00:19:41,359 --> 00:19:44,279
that way it works that heat. Then that was just it.

330
00:19:44,400 --> 00:19:45,279
He just blew up.

331
00:19:45,519 --> 00:19:49,440
Speaker 2: So yeah, and the rest is history. It's all all

332
00:19:49,559 --> 00:19:52,440
archived now. So yeah, I mean I just saw this

333
00:19:52,519 --> 00:20:00,119
as an opportunity that to come out and actually confront Sam,

334
00:20:00,200 --> 00:20:05,200
because he's unhinged at this point. Now he's pushing heretical stuff.

335
00:20:05,240 --> 00:20:11,640
He's going after you. He's just talking the most nonsensical garbage,

336
00:20:12,119 --> 00:20:16,960
a lot of vilification, and it's like, well, fellow apologists

337
00:20:17,160 --> 00:20:21,039
going to come to your side, and let me just

338
00:20:21,079 --> 00:20:25,799
take this as an opportunity. Then that time when I

339
00:20:25,880 --> 00:20:29,000
had called Sam out before, when he first joined the

340
00:20:29,079 --> 00:20:32,519
Church of the East, I did frame it as let's

341
00:20:32,559 --> 00:20:35,279
have a debate. Sam. You think you're confident that you

342
00:20:35,440 --> 00:20:39,319
know about the Church of the East and you're going

343
00:20:39,440 --> 00:20:43,440
to be able to defend your position. All right, let's

344
00:20:43,440 --> 00:20:48,279
do a debate. And he went on his tirade and everything.

345
00:20:48,319 --> 00:20:50,359
And then this is where I changed course, not because

346
00:20:50,400 --> 00:20:52,359
of his tirade, but just because of the people who

347
00:20:52,400 --> 00:20:56,480
are counseling me show him a little bit of leniency. Well,

348
00:20:56,839 --> 00:21:02,960
that leniency is over. Sam, I'm issuing you a formal

349
00:21:03,240 --> 00:21:07,279
debate challenge on your e communism and your Church of

350
00:21:07,319 --> 00:21:11,359
the East theology. All right, let's pick up where we

351
00:21:11,440 --> 00:21:16,079
started from before, and let's see how well you do now,

352
00:21:16,160 --> 00:21:19,480
tough guy. All right, you've had two years, three years

353
00:21:19,480 --> 00:21:22,720
to learn your theology. You had that time to go

354
00:21:23,000 --> 00:21:26,839
and research and become educated. All right, Now, let's put

355
00:21:26,839 --> 00:21:30,799
that to the test. Formal challenge to you, Sam, Let's

356
00:21:30,839 --> 00:21:31,960
do it, formal debate.

357
00:21:32,119 --> 00:21:35,720
Speaker 1: Now there's another reason too, that we need to discuss

358
00:21:35,799 --> 00:21:38,200
this because a lot of people asked a couple of

359
00:21:38,240 --> 00:21:43,160
weeks ago, why are you and Kai talking about a

360
00:21:43,279 --> 00:21:45,799
Church of the East theology? What does that have to

361
00:21:45,799 --> 00:21:49,000
do with them being Catholic apologists so called. Well, you

362
00:21:49,039 --> 00:21:52,440
have to understand that Albert himself has contradicted by in

363
00:21:52,480 --> 00:21:54,880
the past saying that he wants to come on and

364
00:21:54,920 --> 00:21:57,839
defend the Assyrian Church of the East as not having

365
00:21:58,279 --> 00:22:02,279
an Assaurian theology, and more recently contradicted that by saying,

366
00:22:02,279 --> 00:22:04,640
why would I defend the Church of the East. I'm

367
00:22:04,640 --> 00:22:08,200
a Roman Catholic. So Albert himself has contradicted, and it's

368
00:22:08,240 --> 00:22:12,599
precisely due to the train of events that Kai is

369
00:22:12,640 --> 00:22:17,359
talking about, where Shamoon has done the exact same type

370
00:22:17,359 --> 00:22:19,880
of flip flopping of saying that, well, I'm a Syrian

371
00:22:20,000 --> 00:22:21,599
Church of the East, but I'm also a Roman Catholic

372
00:22:21,599 --> 00:22:25,519
because they're all Epstolic churches. And so I appreciate you

373
00:22:25,599 --> 00:22:28,440
offering that debate challenge. I don't think any of these

374
00:22:28,480 --> 00:22:30,359
people are ever going to take up any serious day.

375
00:22:30,799 --> 00:22:33,480
Speaker 2: They're not gonna take it seriously. And Sam, he's a

376
00:22:33,559 --> 00:22:36,079
type of person he's going to hide behind All Breck.

377
00:22:37,359 --> 00:22:41,319
I have no interest to engage with All brect. If

378
00:22:41,359 --> 00:22:43,599
he wants to debate me on Church of the East,

379
00:22:43,880 --> 00:22:46,200
I'll issue the challenge directly to you as well, All Breck,

380
00:22:46,799 --> 00:22:49,599
if you think the Church of the East has correct theology,

381
00:22:49,880 --> 00:22:53,519
like you are on record saying you have called us,

382
00:22:54,720 --> 00:22:59,160
to use your term, morons, you called us morons for

383
00:22:59,279 --> 00:23:02,200
not thinking that the Church of the East theology is correct.

384
00:23:02,480 --> 00:23:05,680
So if you hold to that persuasion, here's the direct

385
00:23:05,759 --> 00:23:09,480
challenge to you as well, All bread Let's debate, formal debate.

386
00:23:10,160 --> 00:23:13,279
Let's do it. But I have history with Sam. I

387
00:23:13,359 --> 00:23:17,400
have history with him directly on these issues, and so

388
00:23:17,440 --> 00:23:20,640
Sam doesn't have excuses to go and run behind All Breadth.

389
00:23:20,759 --> 00:23:22,920
I can do a separate debate with All break But

390
00:23:23,000 --> 00:23:26,119
I'm calling you out, Sam. You you need to know

391
00:23:26,160 --> 00:23:29,039
what you're talking about, not going and running like little

392
00:23:29,039 --> 00:23:32,279
sissy hiding behind people. All right. If you want to

393
00:23:32,359 --> 00:23:35,880
join a church, if you want to proclaim that it's apostolic,

394
00:23:36,000 --> 00:23:38,680
if you want to say that it's theology is correct,

395
00:23:38,839 --> 00:23:42,279
all right, let's demonstrate it. Demonstrate to the whole world

396
00:23:42,440 --> 00:23:47,400
how ignorant you actually are, how unknowledgeable you actually are

397
00:23:47,440 --> 00:23:51,839
with regards to its Christology and its synods. And let's

398
00:23:51,839 --> 00:23:54,799
see how well you can actually read the Syriac documents

399
00:23:54,839 --> 00:23:58,200
to know what that church teaches and what they say

400
00:23:58,200 --> 00:24:01,440
in English and what they actually right and they won't

401
00:24:01,480 --> 00:24:05,559
tell you in English. Let's have that debate, Sam, please come.

402
00:24:06,240 --> 00:24:08,680
Speaker 1: Now on top of that. You know, there's a lot

403
00:24:08,720 --> 00:24:12,240
of ways that I'd like to critique this position, because,

404
00:24:12,279 --> 00:24:16,960
first of all, keep in mind Sam was Calvinist Protestant

405
00:24:17,000 --> 00:24:21,200
for many, many years and then suddenly decided that Okay,

406
00:24:21,359 --> 00:24:25,480
I'm beginning to doubt that we had a pretty heated

407
00:24:25,559 --> 00:24:28,759
debate in about maybe twenty twenty, twenty twenty one. In

408
00:24:28,799 --> 00:24:32,240
the discord a father Deacon Anonius was there, maybe Kai

409
00:24:32,400 --> 00:24:36,200
was even there. And I'm bringing that up because Shamun

410
00:24:36,359 --> 00:24:39,039
mentioned this a few weeks ago in one of his streams,

411
00:24:39,079 --> 00:24:42,839
that he had muzzled me in this debate. But the

412
00:24:42,880 --> 00:24:44,920
funny part about it is is that that debate was

413
00:24:44,960 --> 00:24:48,279
actually about the canon of Scripture and the Deutero canon.

414
00:24:48,400 --> 00:24:51,400
And Sam now believes the position that I was arguing

415
00:24:51,519 --> 00:24:54,240
in that debate, and now he's saying that no, I

416
00:24:54,359 --> 00:24:57,480
won that debate you lost it and you don't want

417
00:24:57,519 --> 00:24:59,200
to talk about that. They know I'm happy to talk

418
00:24:59,200 --> 00:25:01,279
about it because you now hold the position that I

419
00:25:01,400 --> 00:25:04,400
was arguing four or five years ago. So that's not true.

420
00:25:04,440 --> 00:25:08,519
First of all, beyond that, Sam didn't get catechized, didn't

421
00:25:08,599 --> 00:25:13,240
learn patristic theology, didn't learn any of the monarchical Trinitarian doctrines.

422
00:25:13,319 --> 00:25:16,200
Even though he praised doctor bo Branson to the last

423
00:25:16,200 --> 00:25:18,359
four or five years, he didn't really go and pay

424
00:25:18,400 --> 00:25:21,119
attention to what was being said. Because the thing that

425
00:25:21,160 --> 00:25:23,480
I mentioned in the DMS that really set him off

426
00:25:23,559 --> 00:25:27,000
after the first debate discussion was I said, you can't

427
00:25:27,039 --> 00:25:31,960
really have a consistent Trinitarian doctrine of you know, monarchical

428
00:25:33,000 --> 00:25:36,119
role of the Father as the mono archae without the

429
00:25:36,160 --> 00:25:39,559
doctrine of the energies. The energies goes along with this.

430
00:25:39,720 --> 00:25:42,839
It's not a piecemeal pick and choose, it's a whole

431
00:25:43,319 --> 00:25:47,319
package deal. And that also set him off because he

432
00:25:47,680 --> 00:25:51,039
apparently thinks that the energies are some stupid, made up thing,

433
00:25:51,200 --> 00:25:54,359
and he I clipped him, he was blasphemously, maybe, well,

434
00:25:54,400 --> 00:25:56,359
why don't you go get more of your energies. Maybe

435
00:25:56,400 --> 00:25:58,640
they're going to help you out in your debate, as

436
00:25:58,680 --> 00:26:01,480
if the divine energies are not a New Testament doctrine

437
00:26:01,480 --> 00:26:04,839
taught very clearly in you know Paul's usage of the

438
00:26:04,839 --> 00:26:09,880
word uh ergaia, so Paul. So the point is that

439
00:26:10,319 --> 00:26:12,880
Chamun did not get catechized, did not listen, did not

440
00:26:12,920 --> 00:26:14,720
care about any of this. You can even see it

441
00:26:14,720 --> 00:26:19,440
in his recent misuse of Palamas against the Muslims. If

442
00:26:19,480 --> 00:26:22,200
you go and read the whole discourse, I read the

443
00:26:22,240 --> 00:26:26,079
majority of it. Palamas actually argues that Muslims do not

444
00:26:26,240 --> 00:26:29,400
have the Trinity. He does a reductio argument where he

445
00:26:29,480 --> 00:26:33,920
says that even your Qur'an ascribes a contradictory position of

446
00:26:34,000 --> 00:26:37,640
Jesus being divine, and in another place the logos the

447
00:26:37,640 --> 00:26:39,599
word of a Llah, and in other places he's not.

448
00:26:39,920 --> 00:26:42,200
And that's the point. It's not saying that you have

449
00:26:42,319 --> 00:26:47,200
the faith of Christ, therefore let's have an ecumenist, no stratate,

450
00:26:47,720 --> 00:26:50,480
you know, common natural theology position. No, that's not what

451
00:26:50,559 --> 00:26:53,279
Palamas is saying. And so his quote, minds and his

452
00:26:53,400 --> 00:26:57,119
clipping again demonstrate no interest in actually understanding what the

453
00:26:57,200 --> 00:27:01,720
Cappadocians or what Saint Gregory Palamas actually teaches as it's

454
00:27:01,759 --> 00:27:04,279
just so silly. He's imprisoned by the Muslims when this

455
00:27:04,319 --> 00:27:06,759
is happening, and he's debating with the Muslims while he's

456
00:27:06,759 --> 00:27:09,839
imprisoned by them. Of course he's not going to say

457
00:27:09,839 --> 00:27:13,200
we all believe in the same God. Even in the

458
00:27:13,279 --> 00:27:16,720
very passage that was quoted, he says, you proclaim in

459
00:27:16,759 --> 00:27:21,759
your Qur'an my position. That's pointing out an inconsistency. He's

460
00:27:21,799 --> 00:27:24,079
not saying that you believe in the Trinity and the

461
00:27:24,119 --> 00:27:26,400
deedy of Christ. That's so stupid, right to have this

462
00:27:26,519 --> 00:27:30,079
ridiculous position. But the point is that it's not about

463
00:27:30,200 --> 00:27:33,359
what's correct or the right reading or reading comprehension. It's

464
00:27:33,440 --> 00:27:37,079
just Ammo for causing a big fuss and getting people

465
00:27:37,160 --> 00:27:41,359
upset and confusing people. And so Sam didn't get catechized,

466
00:27:41,519 --> 00:27:44,160
and since he didn't get catechized, and since he's not

467
00:27:44,400 --> 00:27:48,000
under any authority or episcopal blessing, this is another point.

468
00:27:48,200 --> 00:27:50,839
You cannot be even in the Roman Catholic system. You

469
00:27:50,920 --> 00:27:53,039
got to pick a rite. You can't be a Syrian

470
00:27:53,119 --> 00:27:55,440
church these and go to the Latin Mass or the

471
00:27:55,440 --> 00:27:58,240
Novasorto Mass. In the Roman Catholic Church, you have to

472
00:27:58,240 --> 00:28:02,119
get permission to leave the Latin rite and go to

473
00:28:02,160 --> 00:28:04,640
the Eastern right. You can't do a both in and

474
00:28:04,680 --> 00:28:08,240
do whatever you want. So it doesn't even make sense

475
00:28:08,240 --> 00:28:10,160
on his own terms. And who knows if even does it.

476
00:28:10,279 --> 00:28:12,000
Nobody even knows it. Does he even go who knows

477
00:28:12,000 --> 00:28:14,720
if even goes. I mean, there's just no way to know.

478
00:28:14,799 --> 00:28:17,759
Then there's no That's why there's no episcopal oversight. There

479
00:28:17,839 --> 00:28:21,720
is no authority that is said Sam Shimun speaks for,

480
00:28:22,079 --> 00:28:24,079
you know, the Romancolic Church or the Assyrian Church of

481
00:28:24,119 --> 00:28:27,279
the Easter or whatever. And that I think is another

482
00:28:27,279 --> 00:28:29,960
point that's overlooked is that this is a du that's

483
00:28:29,960 --> 00:28:33,839
just sort of like creating, like Christian Prince, a sort

484
00:28:33,839 --> 00:28:39,319
of an online religious cult. So when he says Apostolic churches,

485
00:28:39,720 --> 00:28:41,960
my first point, my first critique, and then I'll let

486
00:28:42,000 --> 00:28:44,720
you offer your critiques, is, first of all, what does

487
00:28:44,759 --> 00:28:48,279
that mean? Does that mean Anglicans? Because on what basis

488
00:28:48,319 --> 00:28:51,759
do you just arbitrarily say that it's all the quote

489
00:28:51,759 --> 00:28:54,519
ancient churches but not the Anglican Church. Now I don't

490
00:28:54,519 --> 00:28:56,960
believe it's the Anglican Church, but I mean the point

491
00:28:57,000 --> 00:29:00,200
is that it's an arbitrary standard of well, it's it's

492
00:29:00,240 --> 00:29:02,720
these because they're quote ancient. Well, an Anglican will say

493
00:29:02,759 --> 00:29:05,279
that his church, the Church of England, is ancient. So

494
00:29:05,400 --> 00:29:08,480
to call it ancient and to call it apostolic is

495
00:29:08,599 --> 00:29:12,799
ambiguous in itself. It requires more than that. Furthermore, these

496
00:29:12,839 --> 00:29:18,119
communions historically have excommunicated each other. How can they all

497
00:29:18,160 --> 00:29:23,279
be the same communion? Ex communicate, ex communion, Katie right,

498
00:29:23,720 --> 00:29:26,400
not in communion, you are not our church. And in

499
00:29:26,440 --> 00:29:29,960
fact there are anathemas as we'll talk about the Fifth

500
00:29:29,960 --> 00:29:35,079
Council and the Edict of Justinian. Right. You have to

501
00:29:35,119 --> 00:29:39,319
reject these things. And so it's an impossible position. Thus,

502
00:29:39,640 --> 00:29:43,079
either there is one true church or there is not.

503
00:29:43,400 --> 00:29:46,359
There are two options here. You can't have a fifty

504
00:29:46,400 --> 00:29:49,839
percent true church, a thirty percent true church, a twenty

505
00:29:49,880 --> 00:29:54,079
percent true church. But it is correct that Sam's position

506
00:29:54,480 --> 00:29:59,200
lines up with Vatican two's view of ecclesiology and the church,

507
00:29:59,519 --> 00:30:01,799
because we're remember about it. In two says the Catholic

508
00:30:01,920 --> 00:30:05,599
Church subsists in the Roman Catholic Church, but also exists

509
00:30:05,680 --> 00:30:09,119
outside of that bounds of the Roman Catholic Church. Thus

510
00:30:09,160 --> 00:30:12,839
you can have the concentric circles model of Peter in

511
00:30:12,880 --> 00:30:17,000
the center the Roman Church as its main one hundred

512
00:30:17,000 --> 00:30:21,039
percent church, the Orthodox Church with what eighty percent of

513
00:30:21,079 --> 00:30:23,880
the Apostolic faith. Then outside of that you have the

514
00:30:23,920 --> 00:30:28,519
Orientals and what Anglicans with I don't know, seventy fifty percent.

515
00:30:28,799 --> 00:30:32,559
Then you have Lutherans and whoever else, right, and then

516
00:30:32,599 --> 00:30:35,319
outside that you have the Protestant Evangelicals, and then outside

517
00:30:35,319 --> 00:30:38,640
that you have Muslims who have what maybe twenty thirty percent.

518
00:30:39,039 --> 00:30:44,359
That's the tier concentric circles model of we're all in

519
00:30:44,599 --> 00:30:50,119
partial communion. Where is partial communion in the Canons of

520
00:30:50,160 --> 00:30:52,920
the Church in the first thousand years of the church?

521
00:30:52,920 --> 00:30:56,319
Where is this idea? There is no idea that the

522
00:30:56,359 --> 00:31:01,759
one true Church exists amongst five different sects or groups

523
00:31:01,880 --> 00:31:05,359
or four sects or groups, anymore than it exists amongst

524
00:31:05,480 --> 00:31:08,599
three thousand or thirty thousand. So just because you boil

525
00:31:08,680 --> 00:31:12,359
it down to an arbitrary decision of merely the churches

526
00:31:12,359 --> 00:31:16,400
that profess to have Apostolic succession, that doesn't prove that

527
00:31:16,400 --> 00:31:19,359
that's the true church. On what is it basis is

528
00:31:19,599 --> 00:31:22,519
just the ones that profess to have it, especially when

529
00:31:22,519 --> 00:31:25,680
the certain Church of the East and the Oriental Coptics,

530
00:31:25,640 --> 00:31:30,680
et cetera. They don't agree with each other, so how

531
00:31:30,720 --> 00:31:33,160
could they all be the same church. It's stupid. It's

532
00:31:33,160 --> 00:31:36,440
a stupid position. And nobody has ever argued for an

533
00:31:36,519 --> 00:31:40,359
Apostolic Christianity that is the quote ancient churches. That is

534
00:31:40,480 --> 00:31:42,920
just those four or five seas, unless you want to

535
00:31:42,960 --> 00:31:46,839
talk about branch theory. But Anglican branch theory includes the Anglicans,

536
00:31:46,920 --> 00:31:49,799
so it doesn't make any sense. So either it's one

537
00:31:49,839 --> 00:31:55,160
true church that is a visible canonical unity, or it's not.

538
00:31:56,480 --> 00:31:58,000
It can't be a middle position.

539
00:32:01,319 --> 00:32:05,440
Speaker 2: That's good. Jay, I'm more or less on the same

540
00:32:05,440 --> 00:32:07,519
page as you. I'm just gonna unpack it a little

541
00:32:07,519 --> 00:32:09,200
bit differently. I'm just gonna take a little bit of

542
00:32:09,240 --> 00:32:11,599
a different angle. But it's basically the same point that

543
00:32:11,640 --> 00:32:17,279
you're making. So I'm gonna start with first just simply

544
00:32:18,519 --> 00:32:23,880
trying to identify what is at the heart of ecumenism, Okay,

545
00:32:24,440 --> 00:32:27,920
and that's gonna then lead me into discussing Apostolicity.

546
00:32:29,000 --> 00:32:31,839
Speaker 1: So before you, let me at one last statement before

547
00:32:31,880 --> 00:32:33,279
you go into that, because it reminded me of my

548
00:32:33,400 --> 00:32:35,920
last note here. The only other thing I would add

549
00:32:36,200 --> 00:32:41,160
is that It is definitely true that outside of the

550
00:32:41,240 --> 00:32:45,240
Orthodox Church you do have degrees of agreement or disagreement. Right,

551
00:32:45,279 --> 00:32:48,880
So I'm not saying that there's absolutely no difference between

552
00:32:48,960 --> 00:32:51,839
a Muslim and a Coptic person or something like that. Now,

553
00:32:52,000 --> 00:32:55,759
obviously those churches have a lot more in agreement with us.

554
00:32:56,039 --> 00:32:59,920
But the attitude of the Patristic Church, the mindset of

555
00:33:00,559 --> 00:33:05,119
the church is that it only takes one error, heresy

556
00:33:05,279 --> 00:33:08,960
or schism to remove you from the body. Yes, and

557
00:33:09,160 --> 00:33:11,079
that's all it takes. That's why the faith has to

558
00:33:11,160 --> 00:33:15,480
be whole, entire and complete. You can't have a ninety

559
00:33:15,559 --> 00:33:19,279
percent church a fifty percent church. It just doesn't make

560
00:33:19,359 --> 00:33:22,799
any sense. It doesn't mean all the members know all

561
00:33:22,839 --> 00:33:26,279
the doctrines perfectly or have a PhD. It just simply

562
00:33:27,200 --> 00:33:30,640
is necessarily the case for the unity of the body

563
00:33:31,200 --> 00:33:34,519
that it cannot be split, it cannot be spread among sects,

564
00:33:35,119 --> 00:33:37,640
and one heresy or schism is all it takes to

565
00:33:37,799 --> 00:33:38,480
remove a person.

566
00:33:39,440 --> 00:33:43,279
Speaker 2: Ye, all right, Am I good to go? All right?

567
00:33:44,559 --> 00:33:49,640
So a lot of people will approach ecumenism trying to

568
00:33:49,880 --> 00:33:52,240
like understand what is at the heart of ecumenism, and

569
00:33:52,440 --> 00:33:58,200
they will see it as the coming together of various

570
00:33:58,559 --> 00:34:04,839
denominations in some kind of harmonious union or whatever. It

571
00:34:04,920 --> 00:34:08,480
may be, just simply a coming together of groups that differ,

572
00:34:09,320 --> 00:34:12,679
and they focus on that aspect and just say, oh,

573
00:34:12,800 --> 00:34:16,320
this is ecumenist, It is ecumenist, but it's not really,

574
00:34:16,800 --> 00:34:22,199
in my opinion, ecumenism proper. What is at the heart

575
00:34:22,360 --> 00:34:29,000
of ecumenism is the conviction that no one single party

576
00:34:29,719 --> 00:34:34,639
exclusively has the truth in its entirety. If you're an

577
00:34:34,719 --> 00:34:37,760
ecumenist and you're part of that ecumenist movement, that's basically

578
00:34:38,039 --> 00:34:41,880
what your con conviction is is that you don't have

579
00:34:42,440 --> 00:34:47,719
one single identifiable party that exclusively has the truth in

580
00:34:47,840 --> 00:34:52,840
its entirety. So the different groups have bits and pieces

581
00:34:53,039 --> 00:34:57,440
of the truth, and that we must all come together

582
00:34:58,119 --> 00:35:03,079
on the grounds that unite us in commonality while ignoring

583
00:35:03,440 --> 00:35:08,480
the differences. Okay, So that is the whole reason why

584
00:35:08,920 --> 00:35:12,760
the ecumunist movement exists and why people want to be ecumenical,

585
00:35:13,159 --> 00:35:17,840
is because they don't believe that there is the truth

586
00:35:18,119 --> 00:35:23,480
in this one church. There's just the truth scattered everywhere,

587
00:35:24,280 --> 00:35:27,079
and we're just gonna come together with what unites us,

588
00:35:27,760 --> 00:35:31,719
and we're going to ignore the differences as if the

589
00:35:31,760 --> 00:35:36,119
differences are not are not relevant. Okay, That way of

590
00:35:36,239 --> 00:35:41,320
thinking is demonic. It is completely against the patristics, and

591
00:35:41,440 --> 00:35:44,800
it is completely against the ecumenical councils and the way

592
00:35:45,079 --> 00:35:49,920
the church has functioned since its inception. As Jay has

593
00:35:50,400 --> 00:35:54,800
said rightly, if you are excommunicated, that means you are

594
00:35:54,880 --> 00:35:57,679
not in communion. And if you're not in communion, you

595
00:35:57,840 --> 00:36:00,840
are not a church. I'm gonna get to that when

596
00:36:00,840 --> 00:36:04,760
I talk about apostolicity. So now you have to ask

597
00:36:04,840 --> 00:36:12,039
yourself the question, Well, if you, as an ecumenist, can

598
00:36:12,239 --> 00:36:17,760
actually identify that this one church does actually have the

599
00:36:17,880 --> 00:36:22,679
fullness of the truth, then does it make sense for

600
00:36:22,760 --> 00:36:27,880
me to go elsewhere? Why would you not go to

601
00:36:28,039 --> 00:36:30,159
the place that you believe has the fullness of the truth.

602
00:36:30,559 --> 00:36:33,880
Why would you go to somewhere that teaches error and

603
00:36:34,079 --> 00:36:38,960
proclaims heresies? All right, So it makes absolutely no sense

604
00:36:39,400 --> 00:36:43,800
for me to want falsities in my worship when I

605
00:36:44,000 --> 00:36:50,079
know the truth exists over here. So the point here

606
00:36:50,239 --> 00:36:54,880
is is I don't have to seed any ground just

607
00:36:55,119 --> 00:36:59,519
to not hurt your feelings or upset you. I care

608
00:36:59,559 --> 00:37:02,559
about the truth. I know that the truth exists here.

609
00:37:03,239 --> 00:37:06,079
I don't care about your feelings insofar as they compromise

610
00:37:06,159 --> 00:37:10,639
the truth. And that's the stand against ecumenism. The stand

611
00:37:10,679 --> 00:37:14,360
against ecumenism is this. It's like, you guys are getting

612
00:37:14,480 --> 00:37:17,800
upset because your feelings are getting hurt that we're rejecting you. Well,

613
00:37:17,960 --> 00:37:21,920
we're rejecting you because you're rejecting the truth. Okay, you

614
00:37:22,079 --> 00:37:25,400
need to accept the truth. We're not going to compromise it,

615
00:37:25,760 --> 00:37:29,000
and we're not going to cater and placate your feelings

616
00:37:29,840 --> 00:37:32,639
because oh we are afraid to speak the truth. No,

617
00:37:32,840 --> 00:37:35,639
we're going to tell you where the truth is, why

618
00:37:35,760 --> 00:37:37,559
it's the truth, and this is where you need to

619
00:37:37,599 --> 00:37:40,679
be because this is the church that Christ himself established,

620
00:37:40,920 --> 00:37:43,360
And if you want to cut yourself off from that,

621
00:37:43,639 --> 00:37:46,519
then that is an action on your part. You are

622
00:37:46,639 --> 00:37:50,360
removing yourself from the church. I don't have to be

623
00:37:50,679 --> 00:37:55,280
accommodating to you because you don't want your hurt feelings hurt. No,

624
00:37:55,639 --> 00:37:58,000
if you don't want your feelings hurt, then learn where

625
00:37:58,119 --> 00:38:04,639
the truth is and come aboard. Okay. So Christ did

626
00:38:04,719 --> 00:38:08,280
not go around telling you to go and proclaim the

627
00:38:08,400 --> 00:38:10,880
church that you believe is in your head. He said,

628
00:38:11,079 --> 00:38:14,000
follow the church that I'm establishing here with the apostles.

629
00:38:14,320 --> 00:38:17,480
So that's what you have to do, which then leads

630
00:38:17,559 --> 00:38:24,440
us into well what is apostolicity? And one thing that

631
00:38:24,559 --> 00:38:30,440
I want to stress is that it is not restricted

632
00:38:30,679 --> 00:38:33,199
to just material succession.

633
00:38:33,440 --> 00:38:36,920
Speaker 1: Yes, in other words, yeah, the faith, Like you've got

634
00:38:37,039 --> 00:38:39,280
to have the faith too, It's not just you have

635
00:38:39,519 --> 00:38:40,199
to have the faith.

636
00:38:40,599 --> 00:38:48,400
Speaker 2: So Sam is basically reducing his apostolic Christianity to really

637
00:38:48,599 --> 00:38:53,719
just be those ancient churches that have material succession and

638
00:38:53,960 --> 00:38:57,519
just let's completely ignore what exactly the details are of

639
00:38:57,599 --> 00:39:02,719
their theology and the fact that they've been excommunicated. That

640
00:39:02,880 --> 00:39:05,159
doesn't matter. It's just that is there some kind of

641
00:39:05,280 --> 00:39:13,039
material succession? Oh they're apostolic? Well, material succession is necessary,

642
00:39:13,639 --> 00:39:18,519
but it's not the sole grounds that determines apostolicity. You

643
00:39:18,760 --> 00:39:23,519
have to preserve the faith. That is a key marker

644
00:39:24,079 --> 00:39:27,760
for apostelicity just as much as material succession.

645
00:39:27,960 --> 00:39:30,320
Speaker 1: Can I add on that real quick. I don't want

646
00:39:30,320 --> 00:39:33,599
to interrupt your flow, but I know what it's like

647
00:39:33,760 --> 00:39:36,039
to think that way because I was a Roman Catholic.

648
00:39:36,119 --> 00:39:39,760
I went from Calvinism to Catholicism, much like many of

649
00:39:40,119 --> 00:39:43,000
the people out there like Sam have. And one thing

650
00:39:43,079 --> 00:39:47,840
that I didn't understand until I got interested in orthodoxy,

651
00:39:48,039 --> 00:39:51,159
was the orthodoxy you is not identical to the Roman

652
00:39:51,239 --> 00:39:55,960
Catholic view that there's all this validity of apostolic succession

653
00:39:56,760 --> 00:40:01,079
even outside of the church. And when you you understand

654
00:40:01,119 --> 00:40:04,559
this point that it was actually sant Athanasius's letters that

655
00:40:04,639 --> 00:40:07,480
convinced me of this position, because when I first heard this,

656
00:40:07,559 --> 00:40:10,280
I thought it was donatus, but then I realized, no, actually,

657
00:40:10,320 --> 00:40:12,880
it doesn't make any sense to say that there isn't

658
00:40:12,960 --> 00:40:16,920
a succession of the apostles that is heretical. That doesn't

659
00:40:16,920 --> 00:40:19,039
make any sense. But that's what you have to say

660
00:40:19,159 --> 00:40:23,280
if you're an ex operata x operaparado a Roman Catholic

661
00:40:23,360 --> 00:40:26,920
Augustinian view here, and the orthodox to you is said, no, no,

662
00:40:28,000 --> 00:40:32,480
if you lose the faith, the other mechanical stuff also

663
00:40:32,599 --> 00:40:36,039
doesn't matter. Now the church can make determinations about how

664
00:40:36,039 --> 00:40:38,320
you're received into the church, that's a different issue, but

665
00:40:39,119 --> 00:40:43,199
you're not still the church without the faith. In other words,

666
00:40:43,480 --> 00:40:44,960
you would have to be saying that you can have

667
00:40:45,400 --> 00:40:48,119
heretical apostolic succession, and that makes no sense.

668
00:40:49,360 --> 00:40:52,000
Speaker 2: Exactly, it makes absolutely no sense. And that's actually going

669
00:40:52,039 --> 00:40:54,599
to lead into the example that I'm going to give.

670
00:40:55,000 --> 00:40:58,280
And this is directly tied to the Church of the East.

671
00:40:59,039 --> 00:41:02,480
And so if you're talking about apostolicity with regards to

672
00:41:02,719 --> 00:41:07,960
material succession and correct dogma to correct expression of the faith.

673
00:41:08,480 --> 00:41:15,519
So let's take Nestorius as the example. So by Ecumenical Council,

674
00:41:15,719 --> 00:41:21,480
by the Third Ecumenical Council, Nestorius was deposed, meaning that

675
00:41:21,679 --> 00:41:26,320
he was completely stripped of clerical status. He's not a

676
00:41:26,400 --> 00:41:31,159
bishop anymore, he has no clerical status whatsoever. And once

677
00:41:31,239 --> 00:41:35,960
that happened, there is no apostolicity to him. Okay, he

678
00:41:36,119 --> 00:41:41,039
is not a valid cleric. He cannot transmit apostolicity because

679
00:41:41,079 --> 00:41:47,239
apostolicity has to go through the clerical establishment. So any

680
00:41:47,719 --> 00:41:52,400
church that follows Nestorius or considers him a saint, or

681
00:41:52,599 --> 00:42:02,039
venerates him or gives him a clerical status loses its hostelicity. Okay,

682
00:42:02,519 --> 00:42:07,079
this is a very important point that we see in

683
00:42:07,440 --> 00:42:12,119
the Fifth Ecumenical Council. Okay, you look at I think

684
00:42:12,159 --> 00:42:14,880
it's Canon eighth uh or sorry, no, Canon eleven and

685
00:42:14,960 --> 00:42:18,280
twelve of the eighth Session of the Ecumenical of the

686
00:42:18,320 --> 00:42:21,519
Fifth Ecumenical Council. I've made a community post on it.

687
00:42:23,199 --> 00:42:28,440
So why is this important? Because the Ecumenical Council, which

688
00:42:28,559 --> 00:42:30,840
apparently if Sam is part of the Roman Catholic Church,

689
00:42:31,400 --> 00:42:35,039
he has to hold to this Ecumenical Council. It clearly

690
00:42:35,159 --> 00:42:45,280
states you must anathematize Theodore of Mopsuestia and Nestorius. These

691
00:42:45,320 --> 00:42:48,039
are saints and they're venerated within the Church of the East,

692
00:42:49,199 --> 00:42:55,320
and if you do not anathematize them, then you yourself

693
00:42:55,400 --> 00:43:02,079
are also anathema. So that means you take yourself out

694
00:43:02,440 --> 00:43:07,440
of Apostolicity just the way the councils had deemed the

695
00:43:07,559 --> 00:43:11,639
story is to no longer hold Apostolic success. So if

696
00:43:11,719 --> 00:43:15,480
you don't anathematize him, you are anathema, meaning you're no

697
00:43:15,639 --> 00:43:20,599
longer an Apostolic. That's what the argument is. And it's

698
00:43:20,840 --> 00:43:25,239
that simple. And so you cannot argue for this Apostolic

699
00:43:25,519 --> 00:43:29,079
church when you actually if you're going to be a

700
00:43:29,199 --> 00:43:33,719
Roman Catholic and hold to these councils and these canons,

701
00:43:34,679 --> 00:43:36,599
and yet you're gonna tell us that the church that

702
00:43:36,880 --> 00:43:41,320
doesn't anathematize these people are Apostolic.

703
00:43:42,599 --> 00:43:45,599
Speaker 1: This is huge. Now I want to back that up

704
00:43:45,719 --> 00:43:48,920
by pointing out that you have to understand too that

705
00:43:49,599 --> 00:43:54,039
all Bracked aChn Voice of Reason, and I don't know

706
00:43:54,079 --> 00:43:56,039
if all Bergs has shifted his position on this or what,

707
00:43:56,280 --> 00:44:01,880
but they have. All and Sam as well basically said

708
00:44:02,679 --> 00:44:08,239
in various ways and phrases, Ephesus actually got it wrong

709
00:44:08,960 --> 00:44:14,079
when they condemned Nestorius because quote Nestorius wasn't Astorian. Now,

710
00:44:14,199 --> 00:44:17,639
this is so stupid because it shows no familiarity with

711
00:44:17,719 --> 00:44:21,159
the actual documents of Ephesus, because if you read the anathemas,

712
00:44:21,639 --> 00:44:25,559
the anathemas are actually directed at Nostorias. In other words,

713
00:44:25,719 --> 00:44:28,760
this would mean that all the anathemas of Ephesis are

714
00:44:28,880 --> 00:44:33,239
also wrong because they're misattributing a position that Nestorius claims

715
00:44:33,239 --> 00:44:36,239
to have. And it would mean that Nestorius was not

716
00:44:36,440 --> 00:44:39,960
diffracked and did not lose his apostolicity. But that's literally

717
00:44:40,000 --> 00:44:41,599
and I paid this to play this quite many times.

718
00:44:41,679 --> 00:44:44,519
Voice of Reason, ach and all these guys say that no,

719
00:44:44,719 --> 00:44:48,599
Nestorius wasn't a Nestorian. And it's not just a denial

720
00:44:48,679 --> 00:44:53,039
of ephesis, and it's fundamental to Ephesis that it's Nestorius.

721
00:44:53,119 --> 00:44:56,800
That's right. You have to believe that Cyril correctly understood

722
00:44:56,920 --> 00:45:01,559
Nestorius's position as a dual subject Crystal. So to say

723
00:45:01,679 --> 00:45:06,800
that Nestorius wasn't a Nestorian means that ephesis was theologically

724
00:45:06,920 --> 00:45:07,639
wrong as well.

725
00:45:08,880 --> 00:45:11,239
Speaker 2: Yeah, And to actually add to that point, I think

726
00:45:11,440 --> 00:45:18,719
it's in Pope Celestine's letter to Nestorius. I read it

727
00:45:18,840 --> 00:45:20,920
a part of it way back when when I was

728
00:45:20,960 --> 00:45:23,119
doing my streams on the Church of the East. But

729
00:45:23,159 --> 00:45:26,320
I think it's Pope Cealestine's letter. He even says he's

730
00:45:26,440 --> 00:45:30,159
like explicitly saying, it's like, there's no room for misunderstanding

731
00:45:30,199 --> 00:45:32,920
what you believe, Nestorius, because we have your writings in

732
00:45:33,039 --> 00:45:36,679
your own hand. So it's like it's not like telephone,

733
00:45:36,719 --> 00:45:40,519
a game of telephone, or a misrepresentation. They had Nestorius's

734
00:45:40,800 --> 00:45:45,760
own writings that they were consulting and reading and making

735
00:45:45,800 --> 00:45:48,679
their judgments on. So there's that point. The other point

736
00:45:49,039 --> 00:45:56,559
was there was the double apostolicity charge against Nestorius, meaning

737
00:45:56,760 --> 00:45:59,719
that it was both the See of Rome and the

738
00:46:00,079 --> 00:46:05,800
of Alexandria that found fault with Nestorius. So it's not

739
00:46:06,239 --> 00:46:09,000
just a misreading of him. It is like the Seas

740
00:46:09,079 --> 00:46:13,239
themselves are saying, Nestorius, you are wrong. And in the

741
00:46:13,360 --> 00:46:20,119
letter it basically says that Nestorius must confess the faith

742
00:46:20,599 --> 00:46:22,559
as Saint Cyril lays it out.

743
00:46:23,079 --> 00:46:26,239
Speaker 1: Yes, and my extension, the Fifth Council would also be wrong.

744
00:46:26,800 --> 00:46:32,559
Speaker 2: Exactly exactly exactly. So these people who are are are

745
00:46:32,639 --> 00:46:37,440
trying to say the Ecumenical councils got it wrong. I

746
00:46:37,599 --> 00:46:41,840
think they're just a little bit ignorant of their theology.

747
00:46:42,079 --> 00:46:44,679
Speaker 1: And the councils, well, let me let me read from

748
00:46:44,800 --> 00:46:48,119
your post. This is two weeks ago. Sam Shimun will

749
00:46:48,159 --> 00:46:52,400
not condemn the Nasaurian Church of the East, which venerates

750
00:46:52,440 --> 00:46:56,920
Theodore mops Queshia and Nestorius. Instead, Sam preaches that the

751
00:46:57,039 --> 00:46:59,920
Nestorian Assyrian Church of the East has a valid appso

752
00:47:00,239 --> 00:47:02,880
succession and thus is a vehicle of salvation. However, the

753
00:47:02,960 --> 00:47:08,559
Fifth Ecumenical Council, which is the reinterpretation of Chalcidon in

754
00:47:08,639 --> 00:47:11,400
a Karellion way, if we understand that, then we understand

755
00:47:11,440 --> 00:47:15,159
that it's just as important as Fhicis and Calcidon. It

756
00:47:15,239 --> 00:47:19,639
reads quote the Fifth Acamenical Council states in the Canons

757
00:47:19,639 --> 00:47:22,519
of the Eighth Session, if anyone does not anathematize in

758
00:47:22,559 --> 00:47:25,840
the Storius, let him be anathema. If anyone defends the

759
00:47:25,880 --> 00:47:29,760
impious Theodore Mopsuestia, and he does not anathematize him, let

760
00:47:29,880 --> 00:47:32,159
him be anathema. And that's from Richard Price. And that's

761
00:47:32,199 --> 00:47:36,559
pages one, twenty three to twenty five of Constantinople five

762
00:47:36,599 --> 00:47:37,159
to fifty three.

763
00:47:38,199 --> 00:47:41,239
Speaker 2: Yeah, the second volume specifically. So I got it like

764
00:47:41,440 --> 00:47:46,639
right here, right there, Pick it up, go and read it, Sam,

765
00:47:46,840 --> 00:47:51,159
if you are serious about wanting.

766
00:47:50,960 --> 00:47:55,599
Speaker 1: To learn, well, in my experience that all of these

767
00:47:55,679 --> 00:47:58,159
Roman Catholic apologists, they don't care. They don't care what

768
00:47:58,239 --> 00:48:01,559
ephesis says, they don't care what the Fifth Council reaffirms.

769
00:48:01,880 --> 00:48:04,800
They just handwave that don't care.

770
00:48:05,559 --> 00:48:07,440
Speaker 2: Okay, Well, if you want to handwave it, then you

771
00:48:07,559 --> 00:48:09,760
have a church without ecumenical councils.

772
00:48:09,880 --> 00:48:13,679
Speaker 1: I mean, well it's Protestant, isn't it.

773
00:48:16,000 --> 00:48:22,159
Speaker 2: So based on that argument, that that argument alone demonstrates

774
00:48:22,280 --> 00:48:27,519
that Sam's whole Apostolic Christianity. It's just it's nonsensical and

775
00:48:27,719 --> 00:48:33,119
it's heretical because to preach a church that the Ecumenical

776
00:48:33,239 --> 00:48:38,199
as canonical, that Ecumenical Council has said cannot be canonical,

777
00:48:39,320 --> 00:48:44,679
that is heresy, That is outright heresy. You are preaching

778
00:48:44,880 --> 00:48:55,000
heresy at this point. Okay. So another thing that you

779
00:48:55,119 --> 00:49:01,599
can also look at is this whole idea of participation

780
00:49:02,199 --> 00:49:07,760
within non Orthodox churches and the participation of non Orthodox

781
00:49:07,800 --> 00:49:13,360
when they come to Orthodox churches. So non Orthodox are

782
00:49:13,559 --> 00:49:19,119
not allowed in the alter area of an Orthodox church. Now,

783
00:49:19,880 --> 00:49:23,480
if you're not Orthodox and you're Apostolic, why would you

784
00:49:23,639 --> 00:49:27,360
not be allowed to go into the alter area. You're

785
00:49:27,440 --> 00:49:30,199
not allowed to go into the alter area because you're

786
00:49:30,280 --> 00:49:35,679
not Orthodox, you are not Apostolic. And priests within Orthodoxy

787
00:49:35,920 --> 00:49:40,400
they're forbidden on principle, though I know we have certain

788
00:49:40,480 --> 00:49:45,440
hierarchs that err in this regard because they're ecumenists. But

789
00:49:45,679 --> 00:49:50,280
on principle, Orthodox priests are forbidden to con celebrate with

790
00:49:50,480 --> 00:49:54,679
non Orthodox. You just you cannot do that. And the

791
00:49:54,840 --> 00:49:58,440
reason why you don't do that is because those are

792
00:49:58,639 --> 00:50:05,679
not Apostolic clergy. You cannot be celebrating a divine mystery

793
00:50:06,199 --> 00:50:09,199
with somebody who is not a member of the body.

794
00:50:09,679 --> 00:50:15,800
You just you cannot do that. Okay. So basically, what

795
00:50:16,480 --> 00:50:21,559
sam is doing with his notion of Apostolic Christianity is

796
00:50:21,679 --> 00:50:26,400
that he's using his orb magic to just in his

797
00:50:26,800 --> 00:50:34,800
head put whatever standards he wants to call something apostolic okay,

798
00:50:35,079 --> 00:50:40,880
and it's contrary to what the ecumenical counsels teach. But

799
00:50:41,199 --> 00:50:46,039
now this leads us into this whole Protestant mindset idea

800
00:50:46,440 --> 00:50:51,360
where I'm gonna ask you, Sam, who gave you the

801
00:50:51,639 --> 00:50:59,559
authority to set the standards of what constitutes apostolic? Okay?

802
00:51:00,199 --> 00:51:03,400
Are you just making it up in your own head

803
00:51:03,679 --> 00:51:09,280
and saying, oh, if you satisfy this threshold that I'm instituting,

804
00:51:09,880 --> 00:51:14,000
it's apostolic. It's like you saying, oh, as long as

805
00:51:14,079 --> 00:51:18,800
you confess the Trinity, you're okay. You can be a

806
00:51:18,880 --> 00:51:22,840
social trinitarian, you can be a relative identity trinitarian, you

807
00:51:22,920 --> 00:51:26,239
can be a monarchical trinitarian. Doesn't matter. I'm going to

808
00:51:26,320 --> 00:51:29,159
set the bar and say, as long as you confess

809
00:51:29,239 --> 00:51:32,280
the Trinity, you're a Christian. Well, I'm sorry, Sam, it

810
00:51:32,320 --> 00:51:36,880
doesn't work like that, all right. We don't have multiple

811
00:51:37,039 --> 00:51:41,559
conceptions of the Trinity. We have the Trinity as it

812
00:51:41,719 --> 00:51:45,079
is taught by the Church, and.

813
00:51:45,159 --> 00:51:49,239
Speaker 1: The only teaching of grace is uncreated grace and participation

814
00:51:49,360 --> 00:51:51,960
in the divine energies. That's the only one. There are

815
00:51:52,079 --> 00:51:54,920
not a bunch of different schools of theology on what

816
00:51:55,079 --> 00:51:58,039
grace is the Orthodox Church is the only one that

817
00:51:58,400 --> 00:52:02,679
has always confessed the same theology of grace that the

818
00:52:02,760 --> 00:52:06,480
Cappadocians teach, that Palamas teaches, that Maximus teaches, and that's

819
00:52:06,519 --> 00:52:07,280
on created energy.

820
00:52:08,679 --> 00:52:14,039
Speaker 2: Yeah, so it's basically it's it's coming to this argument,

821
00:52:14,159 --> 00:52:17,000
that is, you are not in a position sam to

822
00:52:17,400 --> 00:52:21,159
set the standards of what people need to believe in

823
00:52:21,519 --> 00:52:24,239
order to be part of the Body of Christ or

824
00:52:24,320 --> 00:52:26,360
to be a member of the church or to be

825
00:52:26,599 --> 00:52:30,119
called a Christian. The Church and the councils have made

826
00:52:30,159 --> 00:52:32,559
it clear what you need to believe and what you

827
00:52:32,639 --> 00:52:36,360
need to profess in order to satisfy the burden. Okay,

828
00:52:36,800 --> 00:52:40,039
and your criteria does not satisfy this burden. It is

829
00:52:40,199 --> 00:52:44,639
just something you're creating in your head. And just if

830
00:52:44,760 --> 00:52:48,360
anybody critiques you or challenges you on it, you just

831
00:52:48,559 --> 00:52:51,039
custom out and you think that they're an agent of

832
00:52:51,159 --> 00:52:55,280
Satan and that they are manifesting, and it's like, no, dude,

833
00:52:55,880 --> 00:52:59,280
you're the one manifesting. You're living in your head and

834
00:52:59,400 --> 00:53:01,320
you want people to live in your head as well.

835
00:53:01,679 --> 00:53:06,039
You're completely disregarding what the church and the councils have

836
00:53:06,159 --> 00:53:10,159
taught and you're doing that out of ignorance. You are

837
00:53:10,400 --> 00:53:14,320
not knowledgeable on the patristics. You go to William Albreck.

838
00:53:14,360 --> 00:53:16,159
Do you think this guy is a fount of knowledge.

839
00:53:16,320 --> 00:53:18,440
He is not a fount of knowledge. If he wants

840
00:53:18,440 --> 00:53:21,639
to debate me, I'll easily show just how ignorant he

841
00:53:21,840 --> 00:53:25,559
is of the councils and what the Church teaches. Sure,

842
00:53:25,800 --> 00:53:29,440
let's do it. Set it up. But the point here

843
00:53:29,679 --> 00:53:34,800
is is that you are acting as your own arbiter. Okay,

844
00:53:34,880 --> 00:53:40,760
you're using your own measuring stick. That is text book demonic.

845
00:53:41,800 --> 00:53:45,119
That means you are not following the church. You are

846
00:53:45,199 --> 00:53:49,440
following your own pride, and you cannot set your pride

847
00:53:49,480 --> 00:53:54,519
aside and actually take construction and follow what the church teaches.

848
00:53:54,880 --> 00:54:00,760
You want to invent your own Apostolic Christian nonsense. Okay,

849
00:54:01,320 --> 00:54:04,599
it doesn't work like that. You have to follow the

850
00:54:04,679 --> 00:54:09,079
Apostolic Church as it itself has defined what you need

851
00:54:09,159 --> 00:54:11,920
to do in order to follow it. And now that's

852
00:54:11,960 --> 00:54:15,760
going to lead me into the next point. And this

853
00:54:16,000 --> 00:54:20,760
next point, this is probably going to get quite a

854
00:54:20,840 --> 00:54:24,280
few people upset, but you need to hear the truth,

855
00:54:25,559 --> 00:54:29,559
and the truth is who is a Christian? Let's answer

856
00:54:29,639 --> 00:54:34,039
this question, and when we ask the question who is

857
00:54:34,079 --> 00:54:38,400
a Christian? Well, what do we mean by that term Christian?

858
00:54:39,000 --> 00:54:45,599
Because you can understand it in many different ways. Historically,

859
00:54:46,440 --> 00:54:50,880
the way that the Church has defined who is a

860
00:54:51,039 --> 00:54:57,480
Christian and who is rightfully to use that appellation is

861
00:54:57,840 --> 00:55:04,159
those who can canonic receive the Holy Eucharist within the

862
00:55:04,320 --> 00:55:11,760
Orthodox Church. Otherwise the person is not a Christian. The

863
00:55:12,000 --> 00:55:16,639
whole point of living a Christian life, the whole point

864
00:55:16,760 --> 00:55:20,840
of going to church is to partake of the Holy Eucharist.

865
00:55:21,679 --> 00:55:25,239
As Christ says, you must partake of the body and

866
00:55:25,320 --> 00:55:28,000
blood to have life in you. So to have life,

867
00:55:28,079 --> 00:55:31,079
you must partake of the Holy Eucharist. So to be

868
00:55:31,199 --> 00:55:35,159
a Christian is somebody who does this, And the only

869
00:55:35,280 --> 00:55:37,679
place you can do that is within the Orthodox Church.

870
00:55:38,519 --> 00:55:42,000
And if you are permitted canonically to do that, you

871
00:55:42,159 --> 00:55:47,280
are a Christian. Otherwise, according to the Church's own standards,

872
00:55:47,719 --> 00:55:53,039
you are not. Now catechumens. And those under a penance

873
00:55:53,800 --> 00:55:56,719
or in a state of impurity who cannot receive the

874
00:55:56,760 --> 00:56:01,159
Holy Eucharist are in a special category, okay, And should

875
00:56:01,199 --> 00:56:04,920
they repose in such a state, they will be buried

876
00:56:05,119 --> 00:56:10,840
as Orthodox Christians. But otherwise everybody else they are not

877
00:56:11,119 --> 00:56:17,559
to be considered Christians. Okay. Now, we will use the

878
00:56:17,719 --> 00:56:22,599
term Christian in a loose sense when referring to those

879
00:56:22,679 --> 00:56:26,719
who self identify as a Christian, and it's just shorthand

880
00:56:26,960 --> 00:56:30,679
label to say, oh, Christian but not Muslim, Christian but

881
00:56:31,000 --> 00:56:34,079
not jew. So it's used kind of as a marker

882
00:56:34,199 --> 00:56:39,400
that sets people apart from everybody else. But we're looking

883
00:56:39,559 --> 00:56:45,320
under this term Christian to see basically what are the

884
00:56:46,280 --> 00:56:48,320
some of the things, the core beliefs that people have.

885
00:56:49,000 --> 00:56:52,960
But then we will identify where the errors are with

886
00:56:53,079 --> 00:56:56,599
regards to the so called denominations. But just because we

887
00:56:56,800 --> 00:57:00,639
may use that to term loosely Christian to fight people,

888
00:57:01,000 --> 00:57:05,719
it doesn't necessarily mean that we equate them as Christians

889
00:57:05,880 --> 00:57:10,000
in the truest sense of the word. Okay, The patristic

890
00:57:10,440 --> 00:57:15,880
understanding of Christian is strictly referring to those who can

891
00:57:16,000 --> 00:57:20,400
canonically receive the Holy Eucharist within the Orthodox Church. And

892
00:57:21,119 --> 00:57:24,840
if that is the view, if that is the way

893
00:57:24,920 --> 00:57:28,880
the church functioned, then so much more is the whole

894
00:57:28,960 --> 00:57:34,119
idea of Apostolicity. That's exactly how we have the Apostolic Church.

895
00:57:34,440 --> 00:57:38,039
And how do you identify what is the Apostolic Church

896
00:57:38,280 --> 00:57:41,280
it's those that are in communion with each other. So

897
00:57:41,440 --> 00:57:44,519
you can have the churches in various different countries around

898
00:57:44,599 --> 00:57:48,360
the world, and what unites them in Apostolicity is the

899
00:57:48,480 --> 00:57:53,599
fact that they are in communion and they're not ex communicated,

900
00:57:53,840 --> 00:57:56,840
as Jay would say. They are in communion. They are

901
00:57:57,079 --> 00:58:01,440
participating in the body and blood of Christ. And it's

902
00:58:02,679 --> 00:58:07,079
to Peter one four, participating in the divine energies of Christ,

903
00:58:07,199 --> 00:58:12,880
participating in Christ. So that is your whole Apostolic tradition

904
00:58:13,559 --> 00:58:18,239
summed up in the Christian expression of Orthodoxy.

905
00:58:19,079 --> 00:58:22,960
Speaker 1: It'd be interesting too to point out the ahistorical element

906
00:58:23,119 --> 00:58:29,559
of this. Who prior to Shimun Albrecht Aichan voice of reason,

907
00:58:29,639 --> 00:58:32,840
I don't know who who has ever argued that the

908
00:58:33,239 --> 00:58:37,559
Catholic Church is the listing of the people who claim

909
00:58:37,639 --> 00:58:43,880
to have outsolt succession. Whoever taught this? Can anybody cite

910
00:58:43,920 --> 00:58:48,960
anyone prior to Sam Shimun or Aichen or whoever that

911
00:58:49,119 --> 00:58:53,840
taught this Like it's a new ecclesiological doctrine. I mean,

912
00:58:54,079 --> 00:58:57,559
the doctrine of ecclesiology itself is not something that we

913
00:58:57,719 --> 00:59:00,920
craft on our own right. It's something that is part

914
00:59:00,960 --> 00:59:03,000
of the jurison that's handed down. You can't make up

915
00:59:03,000 --> 00:59:08,079
a new ecclesiology. It has to be consonant with Christology

916
00:59:08,159 --> 00:59:13,239
because Christology will reflect into ecclesiology because the Church is

917
00:59:13,320 --> 00:59:16,639
the body of Christ. And if you have right Christology,

918
00:59:16,679 --> 00:59:20,679
you're going to have right ecclesiology. It's precisely erroneous Christology

919
00:59:20,719 --> 00:59:23,760
which these people are defending in terms of the Church

920
00:59:23,800 --> 00:59:27,719
of the East and the Coptics and arguably even Roman Catholicism,

921
00:59:27,840 --> 00:59:31,119
which is why they don't have correct ecclesiology.

922
00:59:31,880 --> 00:59:37,400
Speaker 2: Yep, yep. Another point that I guess I can make,

923
00:59:37,440 --> 00:59:40,239
and this is one that I made a community post on.

924
00:59:41,039 --> 00:59:44,480
It's also you look at the mentality of the Orthodox

925
00:59:44,639 --> 00:59:47,559
in having this understanding of who is a Christian and

926
00:59:47,639 --> 00:59:53,719
the apostolic question is when somebody from a different quote

927
00:59:53,800 --> 01:00:01,199
unquote Christian profession comes to the Orthodox Church, what they

928
01:00:01,360 --> 01:00:04,320
have to renounce. And so, for example, like if you're

929
01:00:04,679 --> 01:00:06,039
a former Roman.

930
01:00:05,840 --> 01:00:08,280
Speaker 1: Catholic, yeah you have a renunciation.

931
01:00:08,400 --> 01:00:11,639
Speaker 2: Yeah you have a renunciation. If you are coming from

932
01:00:11,639 --> 01:00:14,199
the Church of the East, you have a renunciation. If

933
01:00:14,280 --> 01:00:18,239
you are coming from one of the Oriental establishments, you

934
01:00:18,599 --> 01:00:23,400
have a renunciation. And these are explicit these are explicit

935
01:00:23,719 --> 01:00:30,880
renunciations that you have to say that these establishments Roman, Catholicism,

936
01:00:31,320 --> 01:00:35,360
Orientals Church of these are incorrect. They are not the

937
01:00:35,480 --> 01:00:38,639
body and blood of Christ. They are not the Church.

938
01:00:39,239 --> 01:00:42,039
You do not have valid sacraments, if you will, or

939
01:00:42,280 --> 01:00:45,360
what we prefer the term mysteries. We don't really use sacraments.

940
01:00:45,599 --> 01:00:48,119
We also call it as mysteries that those are not

941
01:00:48,360 --> 01:00:51,920
present in those churches, and you have to renounce them.

942
01:00:52,320 --> 01:00:56,920
You cannot be Orthodox and not renounce those churches. You

943
01:00:57,119 --> 01:01:01,199
have to. Now, if you are an Orthodox who is

944
01:01:01,280 --> 01:01:04,480
a fan of Sam, and you are saying, well, I'm

945
01:01:04,559 --> 01:01:08,199
not of that persuasion and whatnot, you just don't know

946
01:01:08,280 --> 01:01:11,360
what your faith teaches. You don't know what Orthodoxy teaches.

947
01:01:11,719 --> 01:01:14,639
You have to take this hard line because we don't

948
01:01:14,800 --> 01:01:20,320
compromise on the faith. You cannot be Orthodox and not

949
01:01:20,880 --> 01:01:24,119
renounce these other churches. If you don't want to go

950
01:01:24,239 --> 01:01:27,400
out and bash them. Okay, Sam said, oh I will

951
01:01:27,559 --> 01:01:31,400
never bash these churches. Okay, don't bash them. You don't

952
01:01:31,480 --> 01:01:34,960
have to go and assault them. But you have to

953
01:01:35,239 --> 01:01:38,920
renounce them. And you have to have that personal conviction

954
01:01:39,679 --> 01:01:44,360
that these are false churches and they do not have

955
01:01:44,639 --> 01:01:48,199
the mysteries, because if they had the mysteries, then you

956
01:01:48,239 --> 01:01:51,039
wouldn't have to renounce them. It doesn't make sense to

957
01:01:51,400 --> 01:01:54,880
renounce Christ if He is over there. You're renouncing them

958
01:01:54,960 --> 01:01:58,599
because you're saying Christ is not there. Christ is here,

959
01:01:58,920 --> 01:02:01,800
and if I come here, I will participate in the

960
01:02:01,840 --> 01:02:05,920
divine mystery that is Christ. That's the whole point. There's

961
01:02:06,039 --> 01:02:11,400
only that one arc of salvation. Noah was commanded to

962
01:02:11,440 --> 01:02:15,320
build one arc, not a gazillion arcs. One arc, and

963
01:02:15,519 --> 01:02:20,559
that's the arc that you come aboard. And now maybe

964
01:02:20,599 --> 01:02:23,039
we can make a point here because I think a

965
01:02:23,119 --> 01:02:27,800
lot of people may not understand when you say Jay

966
01:02:28,039 --> 01:02:33,840
or others will say that this Nestorian ecclesiology, and what

967
01:02:34,039 --> 01:02:35,679
exactly does that mean?

968
01:02:37,639 --> 01:02:39,360
Speaker 1: And if you want to elaborate on that, yeah, just

969
01:02:39,880 --> 01:02:45,000
I'll explained Blake briefly that you know in the notion

970
01:02:45,440 --> 01:02:49,719
of is there a been an echo?

971
01:02:50,400 --> 01:02:50,480
Speaker 2: Right?

972
01:02:50,519 --> 01:02:53,360
Speaker 1: No, it's good now Armand so basically in church history

973
01:02:53,400 --> 01:02:58,079
you have the division at ephesis between Nestorius and the

974
01:02:58,119 --> 01:03:01,119
rest of the Church over the question of whether Christ

975
01:03:01,360 --> 01:03:04,679
is a dual subject or a single subject. If you

976
01:03:04,800 --> 01:03:07,519
believe the writings of Saint Cyril of Alexandria, and if

977
01:03:07,519 --> 01:03:10,119
you believe the teaching of Ephesus and people that are

978
01:03:10,159 --> 01:03:12,440
not familiar with it, I would say start by reading

979
01:03:12,519 --> 01:03:15,239
something simple like on the Unity of Christ by Saint Cyril.

980
01:03:16,159 --> 01:03:20,079
You're going to notice that Cyril correctly identifies the stories

981
01:03:20,119 --> 01:03:23,920
as having a dual subject Christology, that there's this Jesus,

982
01:03:24,079 --> 01:03:27,480
the man, who's a subject, who's the agent behind all

983
01:03:27,519 --> 01:03:30,440
the human actions like eating and crying and all this

984
01:03:30,559 --> 01:03:33,239
kind of stuff. And then there's a divine person, the logos,

985
01:03:33,559 --> 01:03:36,159
who's the one that kind of peeps through when there's

986
01:03:36,239 --> 01:03:38,599
miracles or when there's an ascension or something like this.

987
01:03:39,079 --> 01:03:45,440
So there's two subjects. And this principle in Christology gets

988
01:03:45,519 --> 01:03:49,599
applied the same way to the mystical body, which is

989
01:03:49,719 --> 01:03:53,800
the Church, when you have an historian ecclesiology where Christ

990
01:03:53,960 --> 01:03:59,280
is not identical to the visible body in the same

991
01:03:59,320 --> 01:04:03,559
way that he was identically united to his visible physical

992
01:04:03,639 --> 01:04:07,199
body when he was incarnate. Let me bring Kai back.

993
01:04:07,519 --> 01:04:07,920
Are you there?

994
01:04:09,159 --> 01:04:09,360
Speaker 2: Yeah?

995
01:04:09,599 --> 01:04:12,760
Speaker 1: I lost you for a second. So basically, so basically,

996
01:04:12,920 --> 01:04:19,440
just as Nestorius would divide the incarnation in the hypostatic union, Likewise,

997
01:04:19,639 --> 01:04:23,400
in the church you have an ecclesiological version of Historianism,

998
01:04:23,440 --> 01:04:27,599
where Christ is not synonymous with his mystical body, the visible,

999
01:04:28,880 --> 01:04:32,679
single body Church, but rather amongst a bunch of different

1000
01:04:32,760 --> 01:04:36,320
sects and groups. And this, although not explicitly called the

1001
01:04:36,440 --> 01:04:42,440
invisible church doctrine in the Reformation, becomes Calvin's invisible Church doctrine.

1002
01:04:42,480 --> 01:04:45,079
Calvin teaches that there is a visible church which is

1003
01:04:45,159 --> 01:04:48,719
splintered and split and divided, and everybody hates each other

1004
01:04:48,760 --> 01:04:53,880
and they're all excommunicating each other Roman Catholic, Lutheran, Calvinists,

1005
01:04:53,920 --> 01:04:58,320
Presbyterian and Methodist. And then there is a elect church

1006
01:04:58,519 --> 01:05:02,920
that is the true believing elect amongst these groups. Right,

1007
01:05:03,000 --> 01:05:06,960
that's the kind of classical Calvinist Westminster Confession view visible

1008
01:05:07,039 --> 01:05:11,599
invisible church. It's premised on a Nestorian ecclesiology. The same

1009
01:05:11,679 --> 01:05:15,760
principles and Astorius applies to Christ, these people apply to

1010
01:05:15,920 --> 01:05:18,280
the mystical body of Christ, the Church, and so they

1011
01:05:18,400 --> 01:05:25,159
deny a single, visible, substantial right in time and space history,

1012
01:05:26,159 --> 01:05:30,119
single visible church. And that's exactly the same position that

1013
01:05:30,800 --> 01:05:35,639
Sam all Breckt and the Vatican to a humanist mindset has.

1014
01:05:37,519 --> 01:05:40,960
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, thanks for that, Jay, You explained it much

1015
01:05:41,039 --> 01:05:45,199
better than I would be able to the other thing

1016
01:05:45,239 --> 01:05:48,480
that I wanted to touch upon, and this is kind

1017
01:05:48,519 --> 01:05:50,239
of like the last thing that I really had in

1018
01:05:50,320 --> 01:05:52,440
my notes to talk about. We can talk about other

1019
01:05:52,480 --> 01:05:55,039
things if you have anything else, j But the other

1020
01:05:55,079 --> 01:05:57,760
thing that I really wanted to highlight to people is

1021
01:05:59,440 --> 01:06:03,360
this or nonsense with with This.

1022
01:06:03,480 --> 01:06:07,159
Speaker 1: Is relevant because charismaticism is a huge part of this

1023
01:06:07,679 --> 01:06:11,679
picture here, because Roman Catholicism officially accepts charismaticism.

1024
01:06:12,440 --> 01:06:18,719
Speaker 2: Yeah, so Sam kind of seems to be backtracking a

1025
01:06:18,840 --> 01:06:21,480
bit with regards to saying that the whole things with

1026
01:06:21,559 --> 01:06:26,400
the orbs is a joke whatever. Those who have known Sam,

1027
01:06:26,440 --> 01:06:30,800
who have followed Sam for a while, they know that

1028
01:06:31,199 --> 01:06:36,639
he was serious. He really did think these orbs are

1029
01:06:36,800 --> 01:06:41,280
something miraculous, some kind of confirmation of his teaching, of

1030
01:06:41,960 --> 01:06:51,519
his position and things. But patristically Sam would be and

1031
01:06:51,639 --> 01:06:54,079
I don't and I don't say this lightly, but it

1032
01:06:54,239 --> 01:06:58,960
is very much the case. The patristic sources would really

1033
01:06:59,039 --> 01:07:02,760
basically say that Sam is under demonic influence, and especially

1034
01:07:02,880 --> 01:07:08,920
if he is giving credence to these things, there's a problem.

1035
01:07:09,440 --> 01:07:13,960
There's a serious spiritual problem going on with Sam. He

1036
01:07:14,239 --> 01:07:17,280
has made remarks to the effect that he knows that

1037
01:07:18,320 --> 01:07:22,639
signs can come that are from Satan, so he is

1038
01:07:22,760 --> 01:07:26,519
aware of it. But if he is like allowing it

1039
01:07:26,800 --> 01:07:31,239
to permeate his thinking that something special is actually going on,

1040
01:07:31,840 --> 01:07:34,840
then those of you who are listening to Sam and

1041
01:07:35,079 --> 01:07:38,920
just gobbling up all the ecumenist garbage that he's putting out,

1042
01:07:39,239 --> 01:07:43,000
this is basically demonic influence. If you pick up this

1043
01:07:43,199 --> 01:07:46,960
is the third volume in the Philocalia. Okay, and I

1044
01:07:47,039 --> 01:07:51,079
made the community post about that, and patristically, I'm just

1045
01:07:51,159 --> 01:07:53,800
going to read this short little paragraph just so that

1046
01:07:53,920 --> 01:07:57,400
you guys are aware. Whenever you hear Sam talking about

1047
01:07:57,440 --> 01:08:01,320
these orbs. Now, if he doesn't preface it with say,

1048
01:08:01,360 --> 01:08:03,440
oh guys, this is a joke. Look at this orb,

1049
01:08:03,599 --> 01:08:05,719
and he's just basically saying it the way he does

1050
01:08:05,840 --> 01:08:09,920
on stream makes it sound serious. People can misinterpret that

1051
01:08:10,039 --> 01:08:14,320
and actually think him being very serious. But me personally

1052
01:08:14,639 --> 01:08:18,439
knowing Sam and having interacted with him, I do think

1053
01:08:18,520 --> 01:08:20,640
he believes these orbs are.

1054
01:08:20,960 --> 01:08:23,960
Speaker 1: Put I put a clip that I clipped where he's

1055
01:08:24,079 --> 01:08:26,359
being very serious, that very seriously about it.

1056
01:08:26,520 --> 01:08:33,640
Speaker 2: Yeah. So the particular part is it's from Saint Peter

1057
01:08:33,720 --> 01:08:36,800
of Damascus, and it's in his book one a treasury

1058
01:08:36,840 --> 01:08:40,239
of divine knowledge, and it's in the recorded in the Philocalia,

1059
01:08:40,880 --> 01:08:43,760
And this is what he writes, says, when the devil

1060
01:08:44,000 --> 01:08:47,079
saw Christ descending in his extreme goodness to the holy

1061
01:08:47,199 --> 01:08:51,880
Martyrs and revered Fathers, appearing either in himself or through angels,

1062
01:08:51,960 --> 01:08:55,680
or in some other ineffable form, he began to fabricate

1063
01:08:55,920 --> 01:08:59,800
numerous delusions in order to destroy people. It is on

1064
01:09:00,039 --> 01:09:04,279
account of this that the Fathers, in their discrimination wrote

1065
01:09:04,439 --> 01:09:09,720
that one should not pay any attention to such diabolic manifestations,

1066
01:09:10,159 --> 01:09:14,239
whether they come through images or light, or fire, or

1067
01:09:14,319 --> 01:09:18,239
some other deceptive form. For the devil can deceive even

1068
01:09:18,319 --> 01:09:22,760
in sleep or through the senses. If we accept such delusions,

1069
01:09:23,159 --> 01:09:26,520
he makes the intellect and its utter ignorance and utter

1070
01:09:26,680 --> 01:09:31,600
se and sorry and self conceit depict various shapes or colors,

1071
01:09:31,720 --> 01:09:35,680
so that we think that this is a manifestation of

1072
01:09:35,760 --> 01:09:38,880
God or of an angel. Often in sleep or to

1073
01:09:38,960 --> 01:09:41,560
our senses. When awake, he shows us demons that are

1074
01:09:41,600 --> 01:09:45,560
apparently defeated. In short, he does all he can to

1075
01:09:45,680 --> 01:09:50,920
destroy us by making a succub to these delusions. So

1076
01:09:52,479 --> 01:09:56,439
that's patristic, that's orthodoxy. That is what the Orthodox teach,

1077
01:09:56,920 --> 01:10:02,520
and basically, if you believe Sam, you would be considered

1078
01:10:02,720 --> 01:10:07,520
to be demonically influenced. And people, you guys listening to

1079
01:10:07,600 --> 01:10:09,720
this stream, you can go and watch Sam. You can

1080
01:10:09,800 --> 01:10:12,159
go and see for yourself the way he talks about

1081
01:10:12,199 --> 01:10:16,079
these things, and you can clearly make your own judgments

1082
01:10:16,560 --> 01:10:18,439
in that regard. But I think you will see that

1083
01:10:19,159 --> 01:10:23,920
coupled with his mental state, you guys can see that

1084
01:10:24,039 --> 01:10:28,960
this person is unhinged. He is not well, He is

1085
01:10:29,159 --> 01:10:33,800
not well spiritually. And though he does say that he

1086
01:10:33,920 --> 01:10:37,439
goes and takes communion at the Roman Catholic Church, you

1087
01:10:37,520 --> 01:10:40,520
can see that that communion is not having an effect

1088
01:10:40,640 --> 01:10:43,439
on him. It is not helping him spiritually, it's making

1089
01:10:43,520 --> 01:10:48,600
him even more deluded. He talks about his numbers, how

1090
01:10:48,720 --> 01:10:53,720
his ministry is growing. It's basically he is seeing a

1091
01:10:53,840 --> 01:10:57,359
lot of demonic stuff come his way as an affirmation

1092
01:10:57,600 --> 01:11:01,000
that he's speaking the truth and bringing people to Christ.

1093
01:11:01,319 --> 01:11:04,359
Whereas when if you're not bringing people to Orthodoxy, then

1094
01:11:04,359 --> 01:11:07,680
you're not bringing people to Christ. And though some people

1095
01:11:08,319 --> 01:11:13,000
will find their way to Orthodoxy through Sam, the Holy

1096
01:11:13,079 --> 01:11:16,439
Spirit has its way of working through people. So that's

1097
01:11:16,520 --> 01:11:20,399
not to validate Sam as a being of the Holy Spirit.

1098
01:11:20,520 --> 01:11:24,760
It is the Holy Spirit guiding people despite Sam, and

1099
01:11:24,960 --> 01:11:28,720
so he does not necessarily need to be understood as

1100
01:11:28,760 --> 01:11:31,680
a vessel to bring people to Orthodoxy because of the

1101
01:11:31,800 --> 01:11:36,119
amount of people that he's actually diverting away from Orthodoxy

1102
01:11:36,399 --> 01:11:40,760
and encouraging to go and adopt heresy. The Holy Spirit

1103
01:11:40,960 --> 01:11:45,720
is not going to promote somebody to go into a

1104
01:11:45,800 --> 01:11:49,600
heretical church and go to where the divine mystery of

1105
01:11:49,680 --> 01:11:52,199
Christ is not present. Okay, the Holy Spirit is not

1106
01:11:52,399 --> 01:11:55,239
going to do that. So you have to look at

1107
01:11:55,720 --> 01:12:00,640
Sam's initiatives. Do they line up with Orthodoxy and they don't,

1108
01:12:01,000 --> 01:12:03,319
then they have to be demonically influenced.

1109
01:12:04,079 --> 01:12:06,880
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, absolutely. And I want to remind people too

1110
01:12:07,159 --> 01:12:11,399
that just the Roman Catholic Church's position on acceptance from

1111
01:12:11,479 --> 01:12:14,560
the papacy down in the last thirty forty years of

1112
01:12:14,720 --> 01:12:18,000
the charismatic movement and the so called Charismatic renewal, which

1113
01:12:18,039 --> 01:12:21,399
is what they call it, that is another defeater for

1114
01:12:21,600 --> 01:12:24,479
the position. If the papacy is there to guide us

1115
01:12:24,600 --> 01:12:26,760
and show us the truth, lead us into the true faith,

1116
01:12:26,920 --> 01:12:29,880
preserve the true faith, keep us in unity, et cetera,

1117
01:12:30,279 --> 01:12:34,039
why would they accept something that already was condemned in

1118
01:12:34,079 --> 01:12:38,079
the early Church when the Montanousts were condemned. Modern day

1119
01:12:38,159 --> 01:12:41,720
charismaticism in all its manifestations is literally a repeat of

1120
01:12:41,800 --> 01:12:45,199
the Montanist heresy. And if you want my longer breakdown,

1121
01:12:45,279 --> 01:12:48,680
we did a six hour talk where we had charismatics

1122
01:12:48,720 --> 01:12:53,560
calling in. And it doesn't matter whether it's Evangelical, Pentecostal,

1123
01:12:53,680 --> 01:12:57,239
or Roman Calvilic charismatic. This is a defeater for the position.

1124
01:12:57,319 --> 01:12:59,880
If you read Father Seraf and Rose's book or the

1125
01:13:00,039 --> 01:13:03,880
actually their religion in future, same critique of charismaticism and

1126
01:13:04,000 --> 01:13:08,600
the delusion that it promotes. So this and this applies

1127
01:13:08,680 --> 01:13:11,399
to Taylor Marshall as well, because Taylor Marshall has all

1128
01:13:11,479 --> 01:13:15,000
the same mystical delusions that he talks about with Blessed

1129
01:13:15,960 --> 01:13:20,079
and a Taiigie in the Days of Judgment and Black

1130
01:13:20,239 --> 01:13:22,319
the Darkness that are coming, all this nonsense that he's

1131
01:13:22,319 --> 01:13:26,199
been pushing since twenty twenty. Same goes for the tradcats.

1132
01:13:26,239 --> 01:13:30,560
They're all charismatics and charismaticism is delusion. Now, we do

1133
01:13:30,680 --> 01:13:34,119
have some super chats. If you guys want to support

1134
01:13:34,159 --> 01:13:37,800
the stream, I will also be supporting Kai as well.

1135
01:13:37,920 --> 01:13:39,960
You can send super chats, and I'll split those with Kai.

1136
01:13:40,720 --> 01:13:41,000
Speaker 2: We have.

1137
01:13:43,159 --> 01:13:47,359
Speaker 1: First one is snead chucks and five dollars. If Sam's

1138
01:13:47,399 --> 01:13:50,439
position is that all the Apostolic churches are the body

1139
01:13:50,439 --> 01:13:53,520
of Christ, and each one declares the other heretical, that

1140
01:13:53,680 --> 01:13:57,640
means the entire body of Christ is wrong. Yeah. You

1141
01:13:57,800 --> 01:14:00,560
might could take the argument that way, right, because if

1142
01:14:00,560 --> 01:14:04,640
they're all disagreeing, then they're all wrong. None of them

1143
01:14:04,640 --> 01:14:06,920
are right. And I think that's actually correct. In terms

1144
01:14:06,960 --> 01:14:08,760
of what Kai said at the beginning about acumenism, a

1145
01:14:08,840 --> 01:14:11,439
humanism has premised on the idea that there's not a

1146
01:14:11,560 --> 01:14:15,119
true church. We're all in the process of finding the church.

1147
01:14:15,760 --> 01:14:18,520
The church is something that's discovered at the end of history.

1148
01:14:19,000 --> 01:14:22,199
After we all, you know, admit that we're all wrong

1149
01:14:22,319 --> 01:14:26,239
and nobody has it right, will eschatologically find the true church.

1150
01:14:26,319 --> 01:14:30,920
That's the presupposition of ecumenism. Hauling the goods fifty bucks.

1151
01:14:31,159 --> 01:14:34,199
I appreciate both of you guys, and Perry Robinson. You

1152
01:14:34,279 --> 01:14:37,359
helped me get out of Protestantism. Now I'm hopefully becoming

1153
01:14:37,359 --> 01:14:40,560
a catechumen and will be baptized into the Serbian Orthodox Church.

1154
01:14:40,640 --> 01:14:43,279
God bless you both. I have to correct you Kai

1155
01:14:43,479 --> 01:14:47,960
is not actually a Serbian. He's Orbian and Kai joined

1156
01:14:47,960 --> 01:14:54,159
the Orbit orbitan Orthodox church. Actually, as somebody beat me

1157
01:14:54,239 --> 01:14:56,680
to this joke, Cards, I promise I did not read

1158
01:14:56,760 --> 01:15:00,319
Cards as super chat. He says, repent and become an

1159
01:15:00,399 --> 01:15:05,199
Orthodox exactly Cards read in my mind, Nick. Five dollars.

1160
01:15:05,840 --> 01:15:10,079
Sam will pen Muslims playing a pick and choose game

1161
01:15:10,279 --> 01:15:13,199
in their Islamic texts and theology, but then he does

1162
01:15:13,279 --> 01:15:15,840
the same thing when he's presented with problem texts in

1163
01:15:15,920 --> 01:15:19,920
Roman Catholic contradictions. I assume you mean Nostre Tate three

1164
01:15:20,319 --> 01:15:23,079
in lumin Gentium sixteen, the way that it speaks of

1165
01:15:23,159 --> 01:15:26,199
Muslims having the faith of Abraham and adoring the One

1166
01:15:26,279 --> 01:15:31,800
God Chia totally. Ten dollars. Thank you so much. TL.

1167
01:15:32,279 --> 01:15:34,640
Remember guys, if you want to support, you can support

1168
01:15:34,680 --> 01:15:36,520
by sending a super chat and it goes to Kai

1169
01:15:36,560 --> 01:15:42,000
as well. We got new members with winter meet. Eyes

1170
01:15:42,279 --> 01:15:44,760
are the leather strap of the Ans. Five dollars. That's

1171
01:15:44,800 --> 01:15:47,239
from the hadiths. I think, if I recall this is

1172
01:15:47,279 --> 01:15:49,359
a little bit off topic, but how does one join

1173
01:15:49,479 --> 01:15:54,319
your discord. I don't run that discord. It's run by

1174
01:15:55,000 --> 01:15:59,039
David and FDA and the mods in there. I think

1175
01:15:59,079 --> 01:16:02,640
if you just search for Orthodox Discord, it's the biggest one.

1176
01:16:02,840 --> 01:16:05,039
So you should be able to join that way or

1177
01:16:05,600 --> 01:16:07,359
d m Chase Haggard and he can give you the

1178
01:16:07,439 --> 01:16:16,640
link on Twitter. Zen Razor became a member. Let's see, guys,

1179
01:16:16,720 --> 01:16:18,920
I have Kai linked in the chat. You can head

1180
01:16:18,920 --> 01:16:22,640
on over to Orthodox Shahta and follow Kai. Be sure

1181
01:16:22,640 --> 01:16:30,439
to support him, and be sure and muzzle and bark. Kay,

1182
01:16:30,560 --> 01:16:32,479
you need to be muzzled and you need to stop

1183
01:16:32,600 --> 01:16:35,880
barking because you're manifesting. I'm just this is like the

1184
01:16:35,960 --> 01:16:40,720
classic terminology that we hear from. Uh. There's the link

1185
01:16:40,760 --> 01:16:45,680
by the way for people in the chat. So also,

1186
01:16:46,479 --> 01:16:49,079
will there be a debate with the Orthodox Orientals? Look, guys,

1187
01:16:49,800 --> 01:16:53,279
David debated all the Orientals like five years ago. You

1188
01:16:53,319 --> 01:16:55,279
can go to David's channel. He has a whole playlist

1189
01:16:55,319 --> 01:16:59,640
where he debates with all those guys. And we're not

1190
01:16:59,680 --> 01:17:04,840
gonna the debates. We're going to do another installment of

1191
01:17:04,960 --> 01:17:10,680
the critiquing the Orientals. Ky, could you give us an

1192
01:17:10,760 --> 01:17:14,319
update on what the next in that series is going

1193
01:17:14,359 --> 01:17:14,520
to be?

1194
01:17:16,319 --> 01:17:18,319
Speaker 2: Oh, it's been a while since I looked at it.

1195
01:17:19,800 --> 01:17:22,520
I think what I had lined up is we're going

1196
01:17:22,600 --> 01:17:29,119
to look at what composite hypostasis means, the composite language

1197
01:17:29,479 --> 01:17:32,000
when it's applied to Christ. How do we understand that,

1198
01:17:32,760 --> 01:17:37,239
what is actually composite and also start looking at the

1199
01:17:37,399 --> 01:17:41,920
essence energies, What exactly is the energy's doctrine, Why is

1200
01:17:42,000 --> 01:17:47,319
it relevant? Why is it central to Christology? Because a

1201
01:17:47,359 --> 01:17:51,640
lot of people don't actually understand it's Christological impacts. They

1202
01:17:51,720 --> 01:17:56,159
will see the essence energies distinction as really more of

1203
01:17:56,920 --> 01:18:00,199
just kind of the way God interacts with creation, if

1204
01:18:00,239 --> 01:18:03,239
you will, in a very kind of limited scope of

1205
01:18:03,439 --> 01:18:06,600
understanding the guess and energy's doctrine, But it has very

1206
01:18:06,800 --> 01:18:10,640
massive implications on a chrystological level for the person of Christ,

1207
01:18:10,760 --> 01:18:14,840
and it ties into the whole composite Christ question. So

1208
01:18:14,960 --> 01:18:16,560
that's I think what I have lined up for the

1209
01:18:16,680 --> 01:18:17,560
next installment.

1210
01:18:18,560 --> 01:18:21,439
Speaker 1: Yeah. Also, I would say that for those that are interested,

1211
01:18:21,439 --> 01:18:24,279
if you want to read more on it, the discussion

1212
01:18:24,319 --> 01:18:28,119
of composite hypostasis towards the in the Edict of Justinian

1213
01:18:28,720 --> 01:18:31,079
is really good in the vest of books. Everybody should

1214
01:18:31,079 --> 01:18:32,600
get on the person of Christ. If you want to

1215
01:18:32,640 --> 01:18:36,199
go deeper into the theology of the Fifth Council. Uh,

1216
01:18:36,279 --> 01:18:38,039
podios five dollars, you go ahead.

1217
01:18:38,560 --> 01:18:40,760
Speaker 2: Well, I was going to say that book, it's a standard,

1218
01:18:40,880 --> 01:18:45,039
that is a very, very very good book. I recommend

1219
01:18:45,159 --> 01:18:47,119
everybody to read that. On the Person of the Christ.

1220
01:18:47,239 --> 01:18:49,359
That is just it's on my top ten. It'll probably

1221
01:18:49,439 --> 01:18:51,720
always be on my top ten. You have to read it.

1222
01:18:52,119 --> 01:18:55,119
And it's very interesting how even the Saint Justinian, he

1223
01:18:55,439 --> 01:18:58,800
points out the same problem that we have with the

1224
01:18:58,880 --> 01:19:02,119
Orientals today. He's pointing it out. It's like these people

1225
01:19:02,279 --> 01:19:07,359
are just incapable of reading context. They're just word concept fallacy,

1226
01:19:07,520 --> 01:19:11,319
over and over and over again. Saint Justinian points that out,

1227
01:19:11,479 --> 01:19:15,439
and we're pointing that out today. But just a comment

1228
01:19:15,479 --> 01:19:20,359
with regards to the debating of the Orientals that may

1229
01:19:20,399 --> 01:19:25,000
be on the table, I don't want to completely take

1230
01:19:25,119 --> 01:19:27,880
that off of the table. What I'm not doing is

1231
01:19:28,119 --> 01:19:29,560
I'm not going to play their games and do it

1232
01:19:29,600 --> 01:19:32,159
on their time frame. I'm going to take the time

1233
01:19:32,439 --> 01:19:36,000
to do the series. It may take us a year,

1234
01:19:36,239 --> 01:19:37,800
two years, I don't know however long. We have a

1235
01:19:37,880 --> 01:19:40,359
lot of parts, we have a lot of material to cover.

1236
01:19:40,760 --> 01:19:45,079
We're going to be very extensive and exhaustive in this treatment,

1237
01:19:45,640 --> 01:19:50,000
and so we'll see how the Oriental community responds to

1238
01:19:50,119 --> 01:19:53,640
all of this and whether or not a final debate

1239
01:19:53,960 --> 01:19:59,520
will will materialize. I'm not fearful to debate them. It's

1240
01:19:59,560 --> 01:20:02,119
really more of a waste of my time right now,

1241
01:20:02,279 --> 01:20:06,159
because when you engage these people, it's not a proper debate.

1242
01:20:06,359 --> 01:20:11,560
It's about really demonstrating how they fall into word concept fallacy.

1243
01:20:11,920 --> 01:20:14,880
And so that's what it is, over and over and

1244
01:20:15,199 --> 01:20:18,960
over again, just trying to get these people to understand

1245
01:20:19,319 --> 01:20:23,439
concepts context where they're making the mistakes. So it's not

1246
01:20:23,520 --> 01:20:26,399
even a debate, it's more of like an education session.

1247
01:20:26,920 --> 01:20:31,359
So I want to really take the time to demonstrate

1248
01:20:31,600 --> 01:20:35,680
and to develop with you j and with David the paradigms,

1249
01:20:35,840 --> 01:20:40,199
so the Orthodox paradigm, the Oriental paradigm, the the Historian paradigm,

1250
01:20:40,520 --> 01:20:46,319
so that people stop just looking at quotes and think

1251
01:20:46,439 --> 01:20:50,359
they understand the theology behind these words that they're reading.

1252
01:20:50,800 --> 01:20:56,199
They have to start understanding in paradigms, how you're framing

1253
01:20:56,680 --> 01:21:01,760
what a particular father is saying with in the respective paradigm.

1254
01:21:02,039 --> 01:21:04,560
And now you're going to put the sayings of Saint

1255
01:21:04,680 --> 01:21:08,960
Cyril in the Orthodox paradigm and in the Oriental paradigm,

1256
01:21:09,119 --> 01:21:12,159
and you're going to see which of these two paradigms

1257
01:21:12,319 --> 01:21:16,680
actually makes sense of what Saint Cyril is saying. We're

1258
01:21:16,720 --> 01:21:19,199
going to look at what is the paradigm that the

1259
01:21:19,279 --> 01:21:23,239
Council of Chalcedon worked under, what was the paradigm of

1260
01:21:23,479 --> 01:21:27,159
the Fifth Ecumenical Council, and so on, and that's how

1261
01:21:27,279 --> 01:21:31,960
we're going to unfold this. So the audience needs to

1262
01:21:32,079 --> 01:21:38,039
be educated generally in paradigmatic ways of thinking, so that

1263
01:21:38,680 --> 01:21:43,880
should a debate in the future actually materialize, that they

1264
01:21:44,000 --> 01:21:48,039
actually can be able to follow along a paradigmatic level debate.

1265
01:21:48,319 --> 01:21:51,079
It's not going to be a quote mind debate. And

1266
01:21:51,199 --> 01:21:54,880
this is exactly what these orientals want. They want to

1267
01:21:55,000 --> 01:21:58,439
quote mind war. They just want to throw quotes at you.

1268
01:21:58,560 --> 01:22:00,760
Look at this is what these fathers have said. That's

1269
01:22:00,800 --> 01:22:02,720
not what the debate is going to be. You guys

1270
01:22:02,800 --> 01:22:07,760
are not at the level yet to the debate at paradigms.

1271
01:22:08,119 --> 01:22:11,039
So we're gonna set out all of the paradigms so

1272
01:22:11,159 --> 01:22:15,720
that should this debate happen, we're going to demonstrate that

1273
01:22:15,960 --> 01:22:18,520
you guys don't even know how to think in paradigms,

1274
01:22:18,800 --> 01:22:21,680
that you don't even know what your paradigms are so

1275
01:22:21,800 --> 01:22:24,159
you don't even know how to process what these fathers

1276
01:22:24,199 --> 01:22:29,119
are thinking. It goes beyond just simple quote minding. Okay,

1277
01:22:29,640 --> 01:22:35,439
don't be so eager for debate. It will be your downfall. Okay,

1278
01:22:36,119 --> 01:22:43,319
just stop with the taunting and have a little bit

1279
01:22:43,359 --> 01:22:48,680
of patience. Watch the series. Continue to do your refutation series.

1280
01:22:48,720 --> 01:22:51,399
I don't really care about that. You guys can just

1281
01:22:51,720 --> 01:22:54,399
go and just circle jerky yourselves. You think that you

1282
01:22:54,560 --> 01:22:58,159
are refuting us, that's fine, you guys keep doing that.

1283
01:22:58,560 --> 01:23:02,279
But hopefully maybe after the ten part series is done,

1284
01:23:02,479 --> 01:23:06,800
you might actually have learned something beyond just doing keyword searches.

1285
01:23:07,000 --> 01:23:09,560
All right, So just don't be so eager for a debate.

1286
01:23:12,640 --> 01:23:16,840
Speaker 1: By the way, so I've got multiple times the link

1287
01:23:17,479 --> 01:23:22,760
right here for David's debates that have already Look, we've

1288
01:23:22,800 --> 01:23:25,199
already had these debates, all right. This guy's getting on nerves.

1289
01:23:25,239 --> 01:23:27,920
I'm just done with it. All these debates have been

1290
01:23:27,960 --> 01:23:30,319
had five years ago. The people that are debating the

1291
01:23:30,359 --> 01:23:33,279
same stuff now are not bringing anything new to the table.

1292
01:23:33,640 --> 01:23:35,880
Sever In Zelat said all the same stuff five years

1293
01:23:35,880 --> 01:23:40,199
ago to David, and nobody wants to go listen to this.

1294
01:23:40,560 --> 01:23:42,399
Nobody wants to hear the same debate over and over

1295
01:23:42,399 --> 01:23:45,319
and over. All you guys want is attention to grow

1296
01:23:45,359 --> 01:23:47,079
your channels, and that's why we're not going to give

1297
01:23:47,119 --> 01:23:50,359
it to you. However, Kai is probably open to eventually

1298
01:23:50,479 --> 01:23:52,840
doing debates. At least that's what he seems to be saying.

1299
01:23:53,359 --> 01:23:57,079
Yaiko says to you Kai. For seven ninety nine, Daniel

1300
01:23:57,159 --> 01:24:00,239
Kaikish wants a debate with Kai on Iabis's leg or

1301
01:24:00,239 --> 01:24:05,479
to Mari and Theodore. Theodore at not repenting at Calcidon,

1302
01:24:06,159 --> 01:24:08,600
and he wants to talk about ephesis and the oppositions.

1303
01:24:10,720 --> 01:24:13,520
Speaker 2: No, Kakush is not worth my time. This guy. I

1304
01:24:13,720 --> 01:24:18,119
have talked with him behind the scenes. I have been

1305
01:24:18,199 --> 01:24:20,079
on friendly terms with him up to a point for

1306
01:24:20,560 --> 01:24:25,840
quite some time. He is not theologically literate. Okay, he

1307
01:24:26,720 --> 01:24:32,239
approaches I don't know if Kakush did. Maybe he did,

1308
01:24:32,319 --> 01:24:35,920
I don't really or maybe he was just there. I

1309
01:24:35,960 --> 01:24:39,960
don't know, but he Kakush will openly admit that he

1310
01:24:40,279 --> 01:24:43,000
approaches things from a historical point of view. He wants

1311
01:24:43,079 --> 01:24:48,079
to look at things historically. Okay, that is not really

1312
01:24:48,239 --> 01:24:52,199
my avenue. That is not where I look with regards

1313
01:24:52,279 --> 01:25:02,319
to my argumentations with regards to understanding orthodox theology oriental historian.

1314
01:25:02,560 --> 01:25:04,840
I look at theology, I look at metaphysics, I look

1315
01:25:04,920 --> 01:25:07,760
at the councils. What do they teach? I look at paradigms.

1316
01:25:08,119 --> 01:25:09,680
I'm not going to go on a back and forth

1317
01:25:09,760 --> 01:25:12,960
on historical documents. He can go and debate somebody else

1318
01:25:13,159 --> 01:25:16,800
on that, but I'm just not interested in that. Kakish,

1319
01:25:17,039 --> 01:25:20,119
you know I'm not scared of you, bro, don't play

1320
01:25:20,199 --> 01:25:23,960
these games. Come if you want to debate theology, you

1321
01:25:24,279 --> 01:25:27,119
know that you don't know theology, okay, and you know

1322
01:25:27,239 --> 01:25:29,840
that I would embarrass you on that. So if you

1323
01:25:29,920 --> 01:25:32,640
want a theological debate and I know that you don't,

1324
01:25:33,039 --> 01:25:35,319
don't waste my time with stuff that you know that

1325
01:25:35,479 --> 01:25:38,920
I don't bother reading and I don't really bother on

1326
01:25:39,000 --> 01:25:41,960
those details. Those are not the issues that are at

1327
01:25:42,079 --> 01:25:44,880
my forefront. I deal with other issues. So don't be

1328
01:25:45,000 --> 01:25:48,600
throwing out challenges that you know I don't specialize in

1329
01:25:48,680 --> 01:25:52,159
a particular area. Just how I'm not challenging you two

1330
01:25:52,279 --> 01:25:56,960
with your logic debate because I know you are very

1331
01:25:57,039 --> 01:25:59,399
poor in theology. That is not your strength. Just like

1332
01:25:59,479 --> 01:26:02,680
you said on stream, you don't do metaphysics you're Syriac.

1333
01:26:02,840 --> 01:26:05,520
You write poetry, all right. I know that's not your strength.

1334
01:26:05,640 --> 01:26:07,279
I'm not going to call you out on that, So

1335
01:26:07,399 --> 01:26:09,880
don't try to do this one up. It's not going

1336
01:26:09,960 --> 01:26:10,199
to work.

1337
01:26:10,920 --> 01:26:13,600
Speaker 1: Gainer Zola five dollars. The Christian Worksman the Old Testament

1338
01:26:13,640 --> 01:26:15,880
video on orthodox of how to help me leave Protestantism.

1339
01:26:15,960 --> 01:26:18,479
Thank you for your work. Thank you Jay for the suggestion.

1340
01:26:18,600 --> 01:26:20,640
Hey Man, that's great to hear you. It's a classic,

1341
01:26:21,760 --> 01:26:26,359
excellent documentary that they put together. Cody g twenty dollars.

1342
01:26:26,439 --> 01:26:29,359
This is a fantastic discussion, fantastic guest, Jay, Thank you.

1343
01:26:29,520 --> 01:26:35,359
I'll be it would be great to have Kai on

1344
01:26:35,640 --> 01:26:40,520
to respond to common quote arguments that you get a

1345
01:26:40,640 --> 01:26:45,720
day or so after your debate live streams. I'm not

1346
01:26:45,800 --> 01:26:47,680
sure what you mean, but thank you for the super chat.

1347
01:26:47,720 --> 01:26:49,800
I first heard of Orthodoxy because of your channel. Glory

1348
01:26:49,840 --> 01:26:52,600
to God. Thank you now again to people that are asking,

1349
01:26:52,760 --> 01:26:55,920
I'm putting in the chat right here, David's entire playlist,

1350
01:26:56,600 --> 01:26:59,479
and I guarantee you and I can tell you the

1351
01:27:00,000 --> 01:27:03,039
Orientals are not bringing anything new to the table. Does

1352
01:27:03,119 --> 01:27:05,920
all of these debates were already had the exact same

1353
01:27:06,039 --> 01:27:10,039
stupid quote mind debates five years ago. So you can

1354
01:27:10,079 --> 01:27:13,199
go watch David's playlist and you can have your hearts

1355
01:27:14,239 --> 01:27:17,800
fill and fill your heart with all the Oriental debates

1356
01:27:17,880 --> 01:27:21,279
that you want from five years ago. There's nothing new

1357
01:27:21,319 --> 01:27:24,279
that they're presenting or bringing to the table. And there

1358
01:27:24,319 --> 01:27:26,439
you go. There's David has I don't know how many

1359
01:27:27,560 --> 01:27:29,920
plenty of videos in this playlist. Let's see how many

1360
01:27:30,000 --> 01:27:36,239
he's got Oriental orthodoxy refuted. Fourteen videos right there, including

1361
01:27:39,159 --> 01:27:43,520
does he have debates in this one? You can go

1362
01:27:43,960 --> 01:27:50,079
let's see go watch his Severn's Zealot debate and I

1363
01:27:50,159 --> 01:27:52,960
think he debated Daniel Kakish too, So you can go

1364
01:27:53,079 --> 01:27:58,760
watch those those debates from David and people say, oh,

1365
01:27:58,840 --> 01:28:01,000
you're just talking about the the Church of the East.

1366
01:28:01,079 --> 01:28:01,439
Speaker 2: You haven't.

1367
01:28:01,520 --> 01:28:04,640
Speaker 1: You haven't refuted anybody in your series. This series is ongoing.

1368
01:28:05,279 --> 01:28:08,600
Kay's number one focus in his life is not replying

1369
01:28:08,680 --> 01:28:12,439
to every idiot Oriental on the internet. He went and

1370
01:28:12,520 --> 01:28:15,520
got married because he actually is a normal human being

1371
01:28:15,600 --> 01:28:19,239
with a life. He's not and that's all right. Like

1372
01:28:19,359 --> 01:28:21,880
what Orientals are saying on the internet is not Kay's

1373
01:28:21,960 --> 01:28:24,840
number one thing. You will get your day. We will

1374
01:28:24,880 --> 01:28:26,680
get to you eventually, I promise you.

1375
01:28:28,279 --> 01:28:32,720
Speaker 2: Or the story, yeah, look at it. So the thing

1376
01:28:32,880 --> 01:28:35,880
here is is just to address the point in terms

1377
01:28:35,920 --> 01:28:39,119
of why talking about the Church of the East and

1378
01:28:39,279 --> 01:28:45,439
Historianism is actually very important to the Orientals, is that

1379
01:28:45,680 --> 01:28:49,000
people don't really understand. I tried to talk about it

1380
01:28:49,119 --> 01:28:52,000
in the streams that we already did. I hinted at it,

1381
01:28:52,399 --> 01:28:54,960
but a lot of people don't understand, and even the

1382
01:28:55,039 --> 01:29:00,479
Orientals themselves don't understand a lot of the criticism that

1383
01:29:00,640 --> 01:29:06,039
we level at Nestorians is actually also that is leveled

1384
01:29:06,119 --> 01:29:10,439
at the Orientals. They are Nestorians in a different way.

1385
01:29:10,960 --> 01:29:17,359
They're just making some slight metaphysical different move than the Nestorians.

1386
01:29:17,600 --> 01:29:21,000
But they both basically have the same starting point, and

1387
01:29:21,119 --> 01:29:23,600
that is not the starting point that Orthodoxy has. Okay,

1388
01:29:24,039 --> 01:29:28,119
orthodoxy starting point is very different, but the Orientals and

1389
01:29:28,239 --> 01:29:32,920
the Nestorians they both share a common starting point and

1390
01:29:33,000 --> 01:29:36,800
then they just go in separate ways. So understanding the

1391
01:29:36,960 --> 01:29:41,520
Nestorian mistake is actually going to help you better understand

1392
01:29:42,039 --> 01:29:46,239
the Oriental mistake. And then when we see how Saint

1393
01:29:46,399 --> 01:29:53,439
Cyril is criticizing the Nestorians, that is going to elucidate

1394
01:29:53,520 --> 01:29:56,119
that Nestorian position a lot more, and then we see

1395
01:29:56,359 --> 01:29:59,399
the metaphysical mistakes that the Orientals then take and apply

1396
01:29:59,560 --> 01:30:04,000
to Saint Cyrial that basically makes them historian. So that's

1397
01:30:04,079 --> 01:30:07,520
why I'm focusing on that. But the Orientals are too

1398
01:30:07,640 --> 01:30:11,520
low IQ to understand that, and that's why they keep

1399
01:30:11,640 --> 01:30:14,479
harping about, Oh, you're not really refuting the Orientals, You're

1400
01:30:14,479 --> 01:30:18,079
just talking about historians. Yeah, just you'll have your date,

1401
01:30:18,119 --> 01:30:18,840
don't worry about that.

1402
01:30:19,000 --> 01:30:21,439
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's it's you need to understand the two extremes.

1403
01:30:21,520 --> 01:30:25,279
That's the whole point here. Or Maxer sixty nine hundred.

1404
01:30:25,920 --> 01:30:29,960
You can't spell kai without a win without the W

1405
01:30:30,199 --> 01:30:31,800
in other words of the win. And if you know this,

1406
01:30:32,359 --> 01:30:34,279
Orthodox Roy Per five dollars. I found my way to

1407
01:30:34,399 --> 01:30:36,520
Orthodoxy through Sam and then I wrote a song about

1408
01:30:36,560 --> 01:30:40,680
him to thank him. Lol. Yes, I played that piano Diddy.

1409
01:30:40,760 --> 01:30:44,720
It was very well crafted and very entertaining, a nice

1410
01:30:44,840 --> 01:30:47,479
jazz diddy that you put together, which was pretty funny.

1411
01:30:47,520 --> 01:30:52,239
Thank you, Thank you Orthodox Royper. I appreciate that. All right, guys,

1412
01:30:52,279 --> 01:30:53,920
be sure and heading over to chalk dot com use

1413
01:30:53,960 --> 01:30:56,439
promo co jy for zero to get forty percent off

1414
01:30:56,439 --> 01:30:59,079
all those great products at c hoq dot com, Chalk

1415
01:30:59,159 --> 01:31:02,079
dot com, as well as a brumbo code jy four

1416
01:31:02,119 --> 01:31:03,680
four l A f E J forty four life to

1417
01:31:03,720 --> 01:31:06,359
get forty four percent off. You can subscribe it at anytime.

1418
01:31:06,399 --> 01:31:09,920
The best in supplementation on the internet to add to

1419
01:31:10,159 --> 01:31:12,800
a healthy diet, to make sure that you are actually

1420
01:31:13,359 --> 01:31:15,760
becoming toxically masculine.

1421
01:31:16,119 --> 01:31:16,279
Speaker 2: Kai.

1422
01:31:16,399 --> 01:31:17,880
Speaker 1: Anything you want to leave us with before we.

1423
01:31:17,920 --> 01:31:22,439
Speaker 2: Go, Yeah, I would just say go and check out

1424
01:31:22,520 --> 01:31:25,840
The Orthodox Church and Echuanism by Saint Justin Popovic. Sorry,

1425
01:31:25,880 --> 01:31:27,239
I don't have a physical.

1426
01:31:26,920 --> 01:31:28,399
Speaker 1: Copy of it. I have I have it over here.

1427
01:31:28,439 --> 01:31:29,239
It's a good book.

1428
01:31:30,199 --> 01:31:33,199
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a good that's a good introduction to for

1429
01:31:33,279 --> 01:31:36,479
those of you who want to know the basic ideas

1430
01:31:36,479 --> 01:31:39,640
of ecumenism, why we're against it, how to identify it.

1431
01:31:40,000 --> 01:31:42,560
That's a very good introduction. And I would say for

1432
01:31:42,680 --> 01:31:45,399
people to check that out and then when you see that,

1433
01:31:45,640 --> 01:31:47,760
you will when you read that, you will then clearly

1434
01:31:47,800 --> 01:31:50,560
see what sam Is is trying to accomplish.