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Are you 23 00:00:53.079 --> 00:00:53.880 feeling lucky? 24 00:00:54.200 --> 00:00:54.280 No? 25 00:00:54.359 --> 00:00:57.960 Purchase necessary void. We're prohibited by Law eighteen plus. Terms 26 00:00:57.960 --> 00:01:05.159 and conditions apply. See website for dlop to radio. 27 00:01:11.640 --> 00:01:15.079 You are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking 28 00:01:15.159 --> 00:01:18.200 killers in true crime history and the authors that have 29 00:01:18.280 --> 00:01:25.560 written about them. Gacy Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker, dck every 30 00:01:25.599 --> 00:01:29.280 Week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and 31 00:01:29.359 --> 00:01:33.920 infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host, 32 00:01:34.280 --> 00:01:48.879 journalist and author Dan Zufanski, Good Evening. It's one of 33 00:01:48.920 --> 00:01:53.120 the most shocking unsolved missing child cases in the world. 34 00:01:54.200 --> 00:01:58.319 Where is Kiren Horman? Why hasn't the woman who police 35 00:01:58.519 --> 00:02:03.439 suspect is responsible for him twenty ten disappearance, Kyen's stepmother 36 00:02:04.040 --> 00:02:07.519 been charged that the seven year old disappeared from his 37 00:02:07.560 --> 00:02:10.520 grade school got the attention of parents around the world. 38 00:02:11.680 --> 00:02:15.319 The twists of the case adultery, sexting, murder for hire, 39 00:02:15.960 --> 00:02:19.240 keep the story in the media spotlight. New York Times 40 00:02:19.280 --> 00:02:22.400 best selling author Rebecca Morris tells the minute by minute, 41 00:02:22.520 --> 00:02:25.759 day by day story of the long investigation the search 42 00:02:25.800 --> 00:02:29.759 for Kyen in his family's heartache, based on years of 43 00:02:29.800 --> 00:02:34.439 research and interviews with Chyen's family. Boy Missing also examines 44 00:02:34.479 --> 00:02:36.919 what recourse families have as they wait for a loved 45 00:02:36.919 --> 00:02:40.120 one to be found, and challenges a common assumption in 46 00:02:40.199 --> 00:02:44.199 no body cases that prosecutors must wait until there is 47 00:02:44.240 --> 00:02:49.159 a confession or remains are found, no body cases can 48 00:02:49.280 --> 00:02:53.360 be prosecuted successfully. The book that we're featuring this evening 49 00:02:53.479 --> 00:02:57.599 is Boy Missing, The Search for Kyne Horman, with my 50 00:02:57.639 --> 00:03:01.240 special guest, journalist and author Rebecca Moore. Welcome back to 51 00:03:01.280 --> 00:03:03.240 the program, and thank you very much for this interview. 52 00:03:03.280 --> 00:03:04.120 Rebecca Morris. 53 00:03:05.120 --> 00:03:07.680 Yeah, hi, Dan, it's great to be back with you again. 54 00:03:08.840 --> 00:03:12.879 Great to have you back. Thank you very much. You 55 00:03:12.960 --> 00:03:17.159 talk about June fourth, twenty ten, and that's the day 56 00:03:17.280 --> 00:03:22.639 you and others began following this case of Tyen Horman's disappearance, 57 00:03:23.479 --> 00:03:26.199 as you do in the book. Let's not waste any time. 58 00:03:26.319 --> 00:03:31.439 Let's get right to June fourth, twenty ten. Set the 59 00:03:31.479 --> 00:03:36.479 stage where this is this school, the Skyline Elementary tell 60 00:03:36.560 --> 00:03:40.599 us about this school and what were the situation that 61 00:03:40.680 --> 00:03:44.280 presented itself at that school that day with all these 62 00:03:44.479 --> 00:03:47.759 extra people not a normal day at this school. Tell 63 00:03:47.840 --> 00:03:50.080 us about this, Yeah, no it wasn't. 64 00:03:51.319 --> 00:03:57.039 Excuse me. Skyline Elementary School is in Portland, Oregon, but 65 00:03:57.400 --> 00:04:00.599 is not in the city limits. It's in Lullemick and 66 00:04:00.639 --> 00:04:05.000 it's about sixteen miles northwest Seat near the city of Portland. 67 00:04:05.599 --> 00:04:09.120 And that was a very busy day at the school. 68 00:04:09.159 --> 00:04:13.159 There was one week left of school. Kien was seven 69 00:04:13.240 --> 00:04:17.759 years old in second grade and it was the day 70 00:04:17.759 --> 00:04:22.639 of the school science fare. All the students in the 71 00:04:22.680 --> 00:04:27.199 sixth grades plus kindergarten had done science exhibits. Chyen had 72 00:04:27.240 --> 00:04:34.040 done his on the Red Eyed True Fraud and had 73 00:04:34.079 --> 00:04:38.439 a diorama. Worked very hard on this. So there were 74 00:04:38.480 --> 00:04:43.120 four hundred extra people in this small rural school on 75 00:04:43.439 --> 00:04:47.160 June tenth because they were you know, parents' grandparents, siblings 76 00:04:47.480 --> 00:04:52.040 who'd come on that Friday to see the science exhibits. 77 00:04:53.360 --> 00:04:57.920 Kiren lived with his father and his step mother. That's 78 00:04:57.920 --> 00:05:00.319 the long story we'll get into. I'm sure about why 79 00:05:00.439 --> 00:05:03.000 he was only part time with his birth mother, who 80 00:05:03.120 --> 00:05:06.279 is uh a couple hundred miles south in Oregon. But 81 00:05:06.560 --> 00:05:10.600 his l stepmother said that they walked around school. She 82 00:05:10.680 --> 00:05:12.839 took a picture of him in front of his red 83 00:05:12.839 --> 00:05:16.680 eyed tree frog exhibit, and then she said she waved 84 00:05:16.720 --> 00:05:19.360 to him as he went into his classroom and she 85 00:05:20.120 --> 00:05:23.680 and her nineteen month old Uh, baby girl. UH left 86 00:05:23.759 --> 00:05:29.439 for for several hours. When uh Cain Horman, Karen's father 87 00:05:29.879 --> 00:05:32.120 and his stepmother, Terry Hormon, went to meet the bus 88 00:05:32.160 --> 00:05:35.560 in the afternoon, Uh Uh Kyron wasn't on the bus 89 00:05:36.040 --> 00:05:39.439 and they immediately rushed to the school. Uh. One of 90 00:05:39.480 --> 00:05:42.120 the the fattest parts of this is he'd been missing 91 00:05:42.160 --> 00:05:45.920 six hours before anybody knew he was missing. That's a lot. 92 00:05:46.120 --> 00:05:49.519 That's a lot of time when uh, after a child 93 00:05:49.680 --> 00:05:52.560 is is abducted or or missing a long time. 94 00:05:54.199 --> 00:05:57.480 Let's talk about the situation. We just did a brief 95 00:05:57.519 --> 00:06:00.040 outline of what happens that day. There's a sign and 96 00:06:00.120 --> 00:06:02.439 Sarah set up and there was all these people and 97 00:06:02.680 --> 00:06:05.759 unlike schools today, I guess some people would be familiar with, 98 00:06:06.480 --> 00:06:10.279 there was no name tags. The school was unlocked. There 99 00:06:10.279 --> 00:06:12.199 were seven doors in and out of the school that 100 00:06:12.240 --> 00:06:17.319 were unlocked, so kind of different sense of security. I 101 00:06:17.360 --> 00:06:22.399 think that we might understand today president at schools. Yeah, 102 00:06:22.439 --> 00:06:26.639 but tell us about right no cameras as well, and 103 00:06:26.720 --> 00:06:30.920 very important tell us about the living situation that Kyen 104 00:06:31.079 --> 00:06:34.519 was in with his father Kine, the stepmother Terry, and 105 00:06:34.560 --> 00:06:38.959 his real mother Desiree and her new husband Tony tell 106 00:06:39.040 --> 00:06:45.199 us about the situation and why Desirie was not Kyen 107 00:06:45.319 --> 00:06:47.279 was not principally living with Desiree. 108 00:06:48.279 --> 00:06:52.839 Yeah, and this is something that immediately people left to 109 00:06:52.920 --> 00:06:55.839 some assumption, Well, there must your reason he wasn't living 110 00:06:55.879 --> 00:06:59.920 with his birth mother. Well, the reason was that she 111 00:07:01.240 --> 00:07:07.079 had been had had now had shared custody. I d 112 00:07:07.199 --> 00:07:11.959 so Desiree Young, who's Karen's UH birth mother, and she 113 00:07:12.079 --> 00:07:15.480 had uh remarried and was married to Tony Young, who's 114 00:07:15.480 --> 00:07:19.839 a a detective in the Midford, Oregon Police Department. And UH. 115 00:07:19.920 --> 00:07:25.279 When Desiree was had divorced her second husband came somebody 116 00:07:25.439 --> 00:07:27.920 somebody said, you need a scorecard to keep track of 117 00:07:27.959 --> 00:07:31.319 all the marriages, And that's that's the v That's very possible. 118 00:07:31.720 --> 00:07:35.120 But she also had a a son by an earlier 119 00:07:35.319 --> 00:07:39.199 UH marriage. And you know, Desiree never had good health. 120 00:07:39.519 --> 00:07:44.279 She went to UH Canada UH one summer to to 121 00:07:44.319 --> 00:07:48.959 seek some medical treatment, and when she came back, the 122 00:07:49.079 --> 00:07:52.360 two men who were the fathers of her sons would 123 00:07:52.399 --> 00:07:56.439 not give the children back. She's fat fought a long 124 00:07:56.519 --> 00:08:00.199 court battle, and a judge finally decided and poor one 125 00:08:00.240 --> 00:08:04.240 that the boys should stay where they'd been living for 126 00:08:04.240 --> 00:08:08.680 a couple of years and it was just kind of heartbreaking. So, uh, 127 00:08:08.839 --> 00:08:12.959 Desiree did have you know, partial custody and both boys 128 00:08:14.279 --> 00:08:18.000 uh when when Kyne was seven, uh her other son 129 00:08:18.399 --> 00:08:21.040 was fifteen at the time, I believe, And so they 130 00:08:21.120 --> 00:08:23.839 spent you know, a lot. Half half their lives were 131 00:08:23.839 --> 00:08:27.199 in Medford with with the Tony and Desiree, but but 132 00:08:27.560 --> 00:08:31.079 half their lives were with their father respective fathers and 133 00:08:31.199 --> 00:08:38.120 stepmothers and step siblings in the Portland area. It was 134 00:08:38.240 --> 00:08:43.120 that weekend, June tenth, was I'm sorry, June fourth was uh, 135 00:08:43.159 --> 00:08:46.840 Desiree's weekend to get the boys. So she was driving, 136 00:08:47.200 --> 00:08:49.840 she would have been driving to Portland anyway to pick 137 00:08:49.919 --> 00:08:52.200 up the boys, but she got a phone call from 138 00:08:52.240 --> 00:08:56.360 the school's secretary around four o'clock, you know, notifying her 139 00:08:56.440 --> 00:08:59.960 that Kyne was missing. And course she you know, really 140 00:09:00.240 --> 00:09:04.759 rushed up to Portland. Then everybody kind of assumed it 141 00:09:04.799 --> 00:09:07.039 was probably you know, he was taken from the school, 142 00:09:07.240 --> 00:09:11.519 or he went wandering outside during the confusion and was 143 00:09:11.639 --> 00:09:14.559 lost or something. But it was you know, actually a 144 00:09:14.639 --> 00:09:21.519 much darker kind of you know, missing child story. 145 00:09:22.559 --> 00:09:25.879 The idea that tell us more about this science fair 146 00:09:26.000 --> 00:09:30.480 itself in terms of what Terry said in terms of 147 00:09:30.799 --> 00:09:33.320 the timeline, she said, she went there, they went to 148 00:09:33.759 --> 00:09:37.120 some of the exhibits and then of course classes started 149 00:09:37.159 --> 00:09:41.279 after that. So explain this science fair and how it 150 00:09:41.440 --> 00:09:45.039 was conducted. But then the kids went into their classrooms. 151 00:09:45.399 --> 00:09:49.000 Why was why was he not reported missing? Tell us 152 00:09:49.000 --> 00:09:53.240 about that earlier arrangement that Terry had made and may 153 00:09:53.279 --> 00:09:55.639 have added to the confusion that day. 154 00:09:56.840 --> 00:10:01.879 Sure, well, the Terry Horn and the stepmother. It was 155 00:10:01.919 --> 00:10:08.039 also her third third marriage. She uh, you know was Uh. 156 00:10:08.080 --> 00:10:11.039 The police have never used the word suspect because there 157 00:10:11.039 --> 00:10:13.960 are all kinds of legal legal ramifications with that. They 158 00:10:13.960 --> 00:10:17.159 haven't been able to charge her. But she definitely was, 159 00:10:17.360 --> 00:10:21.480 you know, the suspect from that first weekend, and very 160 00:10:21.559 --> 00:10:25.720 much with uh, with police and in course with Desiray 161 00:10:25.759 --> 00:10:29.840 and her family. Uh. They just I immediately thought Terry 162 00:10:29.919 --> 00:10:33.799 had a hand in this, and in fact, it looks 163 00:10:33.879 --> 00:10:37.279 like it was planned because she picked today. Uh if 164 00:10:37.320 --> 00:10:40.000 she is responsible for Comment's disappearance, and we think so 165 00:10:40.440 --> 00:10:42.440 she picked today when there'd be a lot of confusion 166 00:10:42.440 --> 00:10:47.919 at the school. And she said that she'd parked in 167 00:10:47.960 --> 00:10:50.840 the school parking lot and she didn't and and was 168 00:10:50.879 --> 00:10:54.799 actually caught later in in several lives. But as you mentioned, 169 00:10:54.799 --> 00:10:57.879 the doors were open, there were no security cameras, no 170 00:10:58.000 --> 00:11:02.960 name takes nothing. She they walked around looking at the 171 00:11:03.000 --> 00:11:08.480 science exhibits. The the reason that he that nobody knew 172 00:11:08.559 --> 00:11:13.600 kyron was gone was that, uh his second grade teacher 173 00:11:13.799 --> 00:11:18.159 knew he was because Terry, the stepmother, had sent her 174 00:11:18.159 --> 00:11:20.799 an email a couple of days before that she'd be 175 00:11:20.919 --> 00:11:25.240 taking Kyroen to a doctor's appointment, and so the teacher 176 00:11:25.279 --> 00:11:28.200 marked him absent, but it was called an excused absence. 177 00:11:29.159 --> 00:11:31.480 And because there, you know, in the corner of the 178 00:11:31.559 --> 00:11:36.159 room was Kyrone's jacket and backpack where they had left it, 179 00:11:36.519 --> 00:11:39.960 and that he was going to the doctor, well Terry 180 00:11:39.960 --> 00:11:41.720 said she left him at school, and in fact, the 181 00:11:41.720 --> 00:11:46.120 doctor's appointment was uh reportedly for a week later. So 182 00:11:46.440 --> 00:11:51.080 just you know, the confusion, that simple, the that that 183 00:11:51.120 --> 00:11:55.000 confusion just just caused a a lot more confusion. So 184 00:11:55.200 --> 00:11:59.320 it wasn't until the uh a m until he didn't 185 00:11:59.320 --> 00:12:03.480 get off the school us six hours later that the 186 00:12:03.559 --> 00:12:07.399 school knew he was really missing and hadn't come back 187 00:12:07.440 --> 00:12:11.240 after some doctor's appointment. And there are other really significant 188 00:12:11.279 --> 00:12:16.200 lives that Terry Hormon was caught in I report for 189 00:12:16.240 --> 00:12:19.360 the first time in the book that she was seen 190 00:12:19.480 --> 00:12:23.399 leaving the school with him and with her infant daughter, 191 00:12:23.960 --> 00:12:27.879 that there were there were a couple of adults and 192 00:12:28.759 --> 00:12:32.519 classmates of cards who saw her leave the school with him. 193 00:12:32.600 --> 00:12:36.840 So that's that's pretty powerful, you know, circumstantial evidence. 194 00:12:38.679 --> 00:12:41.559 But we don't see that right away, and everybody doesn't 195 00:12:41.559 --> 00:12:44.519 find this out. And it's a very interesting dynamic in 196 00:12:44.639 --> 00:12:49.799 that right away Desiree and her husband Tony now tell 197 00:12:49.799 --> 00:12:53.840 our audience who Tony is. And also this is quite 198 00:12:53.879 --> 00:12:57.159 a drive before they get to the house, before they 199 00:12:57.200 --> 00:13:01.080 get to Terry and their ex husband Kine's how and 200 00:13:01.120 --> 00:13:04.360 again the surprising, the surprises once they get there, the 201 00:13:04.399 --> 00:13:08.639 things that don't seem right to them, tell us about 202 00:13:08.639 --> 00:13:13.000 who Tony is, and a little bit about their visit 203 00:13:13.440 --> 00:13:16.360 and their impression when they got to the home of Terry. 204 00:13:16.919 --> 00:13:21.799 So Tony Young, Desiree's husband is, and Kyron's stepfather. He 205 00:13:21.919 --> 00:13:26.360 was just an amazing, amazing part of this book because 206 00:13:26.879 --> 00:13:30.279 he was a he's just retired in the last month, 207 00:13:30.600 --> 00:13:33.720 but he was a you know, twenty year veteran detective 208 00:13:33.799 --> 00:13:37.279 in Medford, Oregon. Basically his whole adult life, he'd been 209 00:13:37.320 --> 00:13:41.720 a detective, and he and his friends fellow detectives were 210 00:13:41.759 --> 00:13:47.120 there in Portland observing everything, you know, for months, for years, 211 00:13:47.200 --> 00:13:49.919 really for ten years. And so they were told and 212 00:13:49.960 --> 00:13:52.679 Tony was told, you know, don't go near the command center, 213 00:13:53.120 --> 00:13:57.159 don't talk, don't talk to cops up here. And you know, 214 00:13:57.240 --> 00:13:59.639 he knew there was a good reason for that, but 215 00:13:59.720 --> 00:14:02.919 they were there observing, and you know, you can, you 216 00:14:02.960 --> 00:14:04.919 can dim the switch a little, but she can't turn 217 00:14:05.000 --> 00:14:09.440 it off. And so their impressions were, you know, terribly 218 00:14:09.480 --> 00:14:12.919 important to the book. The book was pretty difficult to 219 00:14:12.919 --> 00:14:15.399 do because it's an open case and that means there's 220 00:14:15.399 --> 00:14:18.600 no case file to look at. Detectives aren't gonna talk 221 00:14:18.639 --> 00:14:21.600 to you you know, there's no there's been no charging, 222 00:14:21.840 --> 00:14:24.879 there's no you know, trial transcript, none of that. So 223 00:14:25.200 --> 00:14:28.879 the people that were there, uh, observing and watching uh 224 00:14:28.919 --> 00:14:31.559 were very important to this. But what you're l what 225 00:14:31.559 --> 00:14:35.360 you're referring to, is when Tony and Desiree finally arrive 226 00:14:35.440 --> 00:14:41.320 at at to Kane's house where Kiren lived, you know, 227 00:14:41.639 --> 00:14:45.360 the stepmother, Terry Horman, throws open the door and welcomes 228 00:14:45.399 --> 00:14:48.120 them and greets them and says there's lots of food 229 00:14:48.200 --> 00:14:50.679 that's been dropped off and they said it's literally it 230 00:14:50.720 --> 00:14:54.600 was so weird. It was like she was hosting a party. 231 00:14:55.559 --> 00:14:59.399 There was nothing said about gush. I'm sorry, uh there. 232 00:14:59.720 --> 00:15:02.799 You know, she hadn't been crying. Everybody else was crying, 233 00:15:03.399 --> 00:15:07.360 but she just acted like, you know, shoes kind of 234 00:15:08.000 --> 00:15:11.080 host to sing a party. 235 00:15:12.039 --> 00:15:16.639 It's very interesting too when you talk about the reaction 236 00:15:17.120 --> 00:15:23.279 from Terry, but also that police wanted the parents to 237 00:15:23.360 --> 00:15:26.679 be in the same house. So they tell us about this, 238 00:15:26.759 --> 00:15:30.720 tell us about this in a very unique request in 239 00:15:30.799 --> 00:15:33.759 light of what had happened, and to keep these witnesses 240 00:15:34.000 --> 00:15:37.759 and this crime scenes secure. What did the detectives request 241 00:15:38.080 --> 00:15:39.559 these four parents do. 242 00:15:41.159 --> 00:15:43.480 Well, that was one of the most interesting things. And 243 00:15:43.879 --> 00:15:46.440 you know, I don't think it's unusual for police to 244 00:15:46.519 --> 00:15:50.399 kind of lock down a house. And remember Kane's house 245 00:15:50.559 --> 00:15:54.559 was considered one of two possible crime scenes. There was 246 00:15:54.600 --> 00:15:59.000 the school and there was Kane's house. But usually when 247 00:15:59.039 --> 00:16:02.240 they're locking down, you know and keeping f it might 248 00:16:02.279 --> 00:16:05.240 be one, you know, one family and they stay with 249 00:16:05.320 --> 00:16:08.399 the family to answer the phone calls and kind of 250 00:16:08.440 --> 00:16:11.200 had a base of operations there. But here you have 251 00:16:11.840 --> 00:16:15.000 you know, uh, a blended family, a family that had 252 00:16:15.039 --> 00:16:18.559 not blended very well mm and who didn't really like 253 00:16:18.600 --> 00:16:23.879 each other very much. And uh uh although Tony and 254 00:16:23.879 --> 00:16:26.720 and Desiree you know got along uh fairly well with 255 00:16:26.919 --> 00:16:29.720 k with Kane, especially that that first year that Kyerne 256 00:16:29.840 --> 00:16:34.159 was missing, but it was just strange. They they had 257 00:16:34.159 --> 00:16:37.600 to all sleep there and stay there, and if they 258 00:16:37.639 --> 00:16:40.759 were eating, they ate meals there, and that lasted lasted 259 00:16:40.799 --> 00:16:43.639 several days. And it's so I think the police were 260 00:16:43.679 --> 00:16:48.320 really smart about, you know that observing, uh, the interactions 261 00:16:48.320 --> 00:16:52.200 and having people observe Terry Horman who you know, were 262 00:16:52.240 --> 00:16:55.279 not married to her, who were i you know, in 263 00:16:55.320 --> 00:16:58.039 her life, but but who were you know, could be 264 00:16:58.120 --> 00:17:01.200 somewhat maybe a little bit have er observations that her 265 00:17:01.279 --> 00:17:06.240 husband might have. They did kind of align themselves with 266 00:17:06.759 --> 00:17:09.599 Cain Terry's husband early on and had him wearing a 267 00:17:09.640 --> 00:17:16.160 wire nobody else knew about it. But that lasted several days, 268 00:17:16.200 --> 00:17:20.119 and then eventually Desiree and Tony were allowed to move 269 00:17:20.160 --> 00:17:23.160 to a motel, but they had to spend their days 270 00:17:23.200 --> 00:17:27.920 still back at the house, and there was a command 271 00:17:28.000 --> 00:17:31.640 center nearby for you know, all law enforcement, just you know, 272 00:17:33.240 --> 00:17:38.519 like forty agencies. But Bill the House was kind of 273 00:17:38.519 --> 00:17:41.200 ground zero for those. 274 00:17:41.079 --> 00:17:44.160 The people that don't know how big a case was 275 00:17:44.200 --> 00:17:47.400 this for the media and how big and what was 276 00:17:47.440 --> 00:17:51.680 the magnitude of the search that was that they'd underway. 277 00:17:52.880 --> 00:17:55.799 Well, it was. It's a huge story. It still is, 278 00:17:56.119 --> 00:17:58.960 and not just you know, I grew up in Oregons 279 00:17:59.200 --> 00:18:01.640 kind of you know, defend a little bit of the 280 00:18:01.720 --> 00:18:04.599 fact that it, yes, it's an Oregon story, but it 281 00:18:04.720 --> 00:18:09.160 was as as national and international as anything you can name, 282 00:18:09.799 --> 00:18:13.920 as you know, as as Madeline mechan and missing in 283 00:18:14.000 --> 00:18:19.480 Portugal or or uh uh you know, uh uh just 284 00:18:19.920 --> 00:18:24.359 you know Natalie Holloway, you know, uh Casey Anthony, John 285 00:18:24.359 --> 00:18:27.920 Beney ram See. It was, it was huge, and it 286 00:18:28.039 --> 00:18:33.799 was you know, uh, the the the parents, just Cane 287 00:18:33.839 --> 00:18:36.680 and as Ray, they were on uh doctor Phil, they 288 00:18:36.720 --> 00:18:41.119 were on Oprah datelined, I mean, and and not only 289 00:18:41.400 --> 00:18:44.519 in that in that at that time, but national media 290 00:18:44.640 --> 00:18:50.000 continues to cover this, including uh the tenth anniversary, which 291 00:18:50.160 --> 00:18:52.519 was uh just two two weeks ago, as you know, 292 00:18:53.200 --> 00:18:57.200 So it's it's a big story locally, a big story 293 00:18:57.279 --> 00:19:02.599 nationally and the fact that you know that a child 294 00:19:02.720 --> 00:19:05.920 like you said in the lead that a child miss 295 00:19:06.200 --> 00:19:10.640 missing from their school is pretty unusual, and Ernie Allen, 296 00:19:10.680 --> 00:19:15.559 who's the retired now head of nick NICK, the National 297 00:19:15.920 --> 00:19:19.359 Center for Missing and Exploited Children in both this country 298 00:19:19.400 --> 00:19:24.000 and in Europe, has said that you know where, where 299 00:19:24.039 --> 00:19:29.319 a child goes missing from the situation has a lot 300 00:19:29.400 --> 00:19:32.880 to do with how the story is covered by the 301 00:19:32.960 --> 00:19:35.359 media and what catches. 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See website for details. 324 00:20:36.599 --> 00:20:39.920 The media's interest in this case, You know, this story 325 00:20:40.160 --> 00:20:44.039 just kept it just kept paying off and paying off 326 00:20:44.039 --> 00:20:47.559 and paying off. Because it turns out that the stepmother, 327 00:20:47.680 --> 00:20:53.039 Terry Horman, was you know, a real, real piece of something, 328 00:20:53.240 --> 00:21:02.000 and all kinds of things materialized and in the next 329 00:21:02.039 --> 00:21:07.960 few weeks with regard to her, and you know, it 330 00:21:08.079 --> 00:21:12.240 just was a story that that never well, it didn't end, 331 00:21:12.559 --> 00:21:16.680 but not just because Kiren hasn't been found. It just 332 00:21:17.359 --> 00:21:19.079 continues to play out to this day. 333 00:21:20.440 --> 00:21:26.000 Right. This really is also, of course, Desiree's personal story, 334 00:21:26.079 --> 00:21:33.160 and you do talk about Desiree's problem problem background her childhood, 335 00:21:34.000 --> 00:21:37.400 but also that Desiree does everything and I know that 336 00:21:37.440 --> 00:21:39.400 this is a common story with these mothers, but she 337 00:21:39.559 --> 00:21:42.880 goes over and beyond to try to do everything in 338 00:21:42.960 --> 00:21:46.480 her power to try to get who she thinks is 339 00:21:46.480 --> 00:21:50.400 a suspect, is the suspect Kiren's stepmother, and find out 340 00:21:50.480 --> 00:21:54.279 why to pressure everybody she possibly could, to reach out 341 00:21:54.279 --> 00:21:57.599 to the media, to do everything she possibly could, and 342 00:21:57.640 --> 00:22:03.319 then still did more. Lay became an advocate and dedicated 343 00:22:03.359 --> 00:22:07.200 her life to the cause, and still held out hope 344 00:22:07.240 --> 00:22:10.240 for that her boy was still alive, remarkably after all 345 00:22:10.319 --> 00:22:13.880 these years. Tell us a little bit more about Desiree 346 00:22:14.039 --> 00:22:16.920 and the efforts and the extent that she did to 347 00:22:17.480 --> 00:22:20.400 keep this story alive, to have other people involved and 348 00:22:20.519 --> 00:22:22.559 everything she did. Tell us a little bit more. 349 00:22:23.359 --> 00:22:26.720 Yeah, well, I will correct one thing you said. As 350 00:22:26.759 --> 00:22:29.240 early as I believe it was the first or second week, 351 00:22:29.279 --> 00:22:32.880 and he was missing. She had a moment where she 352 00:22:32.960 --> 00:22:36.079 felt Kiren came to her and was telling her that 353 00:22:36.119 --> 00:22:39.559 he was gone. So she early on she didn't tell 354 00:22:39.920 --> 00:22:43.880 anybody for her husband, but she believed by the second 355 00:22:43.920 --> 00:22:49.160 week that Kiren was dead. It's Paine who continues to 356 00:22:49.200 --> 00:22:52.079 believe that Kiren is somewhere. Maybe he was handed off 357 00:22:52.160 --> 00:22:56.119 or he was sold or something. So she really accepted 358 00:22:56.119 --> 00:22:59.240 early on he's dead, but she wants him back. She 359 00:22:59.599 --> 00:23:04.480 will do anything that she can, and it's really I 360 00:23:04.519 --> 00:23:07.279 think what Uh. One of the things that's really unique 361 00:23:07.279 --> 00:23:10.799 about her is that she, you know, is a CoP's wife, 362 00:23:11.279 --> 00:23:15.400 she's a detective's wife, so she knew there were parameters 363 00:23:15.440 --> 00:23:18.720 to what she could do and that sometimes the most 364 00:23:18.720 --> 00:23:23.920 effective thing is to let the person who's the suspect, 365 00:23:25.359 --> 00:23:31.160 you know, ramp talk, uh, look bad, paint themselves. You know, 366 00:23:31.799 --> 00:23:36.160 Uh they're let them, let them do damage to themselves, 367 00:23:36.599 --> 00:23:41.400 as as Terry Horman did with this, and kind of 368 00:23:41.440 --> 00:23:44.880 in a way, you're doing everything you can for your son, 369 00:23:45.200 --> 00:23:49.359 but you're also respectful of things have to play out. 370 00:23:50.680 --> 00:23:54.440 And I think she was, you know, is terribly wise 371 00:23:54.599 --> 00:23:58.839 in a way that that most parents wouldn't be. That 372 00:24:00.119 --> 00:24:03.759 the woman who did this most likely is going to 373 00:24:03.759 --> 00:24:08.880 be her own worst enemies, and uh that that eventually, 374 00:24:09.079 --> 00:24:12.039 you know, uh, she'll get tripped up, and she has been. 375 00:24:12.279 --> 00:24:16.519 She has been tripped up several times. But uh, Desiree 376 00:24:16.759 --> 00:24:22.599 has uh done some things that that I don't know, uh, 377 00:24:22.640 --> 00:24:26.000 that most parents maybe wouldn't do. She after the first 378 00:24:26.000 --> 00:24:30.880 couple of years of searching, which was extensive, and and 379 00:24:31.079 --> 00:24:35.119 I'll mention that, but she's organized some private searches and 380 00:24:35.400 --> 00:24:37.920 you know, she she does it and then she tells 381 00:24:38.599 --> 00:24:41.960 the police who are still investigating, you know that, oh tomorrow, 382 00:24:42.000 --> 00:24:44.480 I've got some you know, trained searchers coming in and 383 00:24:44.519 --> 00:24:47.759 we were volunteering to to go over some places. So 384 00:24:48.200 --> 00:24:51.519 she was, you know, pretty savvy in that way. And 385 00:24:51.559 --> 00:24:53.400 she admits the very first time they did that, they 386 00:24:53.440 --> 00:24:55.920 didn't know what they were doing. But she and her sister, 387 00:24:56.039 --> 00:24:58.720 who is at her side all the time, they they 388 00:24:59.000 --> 00:25:04.359 figured out how to do this. But the search was extensive. 389 00:25:04.440 --> 00:25:10.160 It was hundreds of thousands of acres. And what complicated 390 00:25:10.200 --> 00:25:12.839 it is that it wasn't you know, they don't live 391 00:25:12.839 --> 00:25:17.119 in a city like you know, Elizabeth Smart was taken 392 00:25:17.200 --> 00:25:20.240 in Utah from from the home. It was in the 393 00:25:20.279 --> 00:25:22.960 middle of a city, and then you know, kept for 394 00:25:22.960 --> 00:25:27.880 a while up in back on this wooded hillside. This 395 00:25:28.039 --> 00:25:33.000 is a rural area. So they had the the roads 396 00:25:33.039 --> 00:25:36.240 and I've driven them many times in that area. Are 397 00:25:37.160 --> 00:25:41.400 you know it's it's it's you know, old forest. It's 398 00:25:41.920 --> 00:25:45.960 very steep terrain on one side and then ravines on 399 00:25:46.000 --> 00:25:49.839 the other side. The areas they had to search were 400 00:25:50.440 --> 00:25:56.400 just extremely dense. We're talking you know, chest high ferns 401 00:25:56.440 --> 00:26:02.559