Speaker 1: Hello, It is Ryan and I was on a flight
Speaker 1: the other day playing one of my favorite social spin
Speaker 1: slot games on chumbacasino dot com. I looked over at
Speaker 1: the person sitting next to me, and you know what
Speaker 1: they were doing. They were also playing Chumba Casino. Coincidence,
Speaker 1: I think not everybody's loving having fun with it. Chumpa
Speaker 1: Casino's home to hundreds at casino style games. You can
Speaker 1: play for free anytime, anywhere, even at thirty thousand feet.
Speaker 1: So sign up now at Chumbuck Casino dot com to
Speaker 1: claim you're free. Welcome bonus, that's Chumbuck Casino dot com
Speaker 1: and live the Chumba Lane.
Speaker 2: No, we're necessary void where everybody lost in terms of
Speaker 2: conditions of eating.
Speaker 3: Plus with the Lucky Land Slots, you can get lucky
Speaker 3: just about anywhere.
Speaker 4: It's your captain speaking. We've got clear runway and the
Speaker 4: weather's five. But we're just gonna circle up here a
Speaker 4: while and get lucky. No, no, nothing like that. It's
Speaker 4: just these cash prizes add up quick, So I suggest
Speaker 4: you sit back, keep your trade table up right, and
Speaker 4: start getting lucky.
Speaker 3: Play for free at Lucky Landslots dot com. Are you
Speaker 3: feeling lucky?
Speaker 4: No?
Speaker 3: Purchase necessary void. We're prohibited by Law eighteen plus. Terms
Speaker 3: and conditions apply. See website for dlop to radio.
Speaker 5: You are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking
Speaker 5: killers in true crime history and the authors that have
Speaker 5: written about them. Gacy Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker, dck every
Speaker 5: Week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and
Speaker 5: infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host,
Speaker 5: journalist and author Dan Zufanski, Good Evening. It's one of
Speaker 5: the most shocking unsolved missing child cases in the world.
Speaker 5: Where is Kiren Horman? Why hasn't the woman who police
Speaker 5: suspect is responsible for him twenty ten disappearance, Kyen's stepmother
Speaker 5: been charged that the seven year old disappeared from his
Speaker 5: grade school got the attention of parents around the world.
Speaker 5: The twists of the case adultery, sexting, murder for hire,
Speaker 5: keep the story in the media spotlight. New York Times
Speaker 5: best selling author Rebecca Morris tells the minute by minute,
Speaker 5: day by day story of the long investigation the search
Speaker 5: for Kyen in his family's heartache, based on years of
Speaker 5: research and interviews with Chyen's family. Boy Missing also examines
Speaker 5: what recourse families have as they wait for a loved
Speaker 5: one to be found, and challenges a common assumption in
Speaker 5: no body cases that prosecutors must wait until there is
Speaker 5: a confession or remains are found, no body cases can
Speaker 5: be prosecuted successfully. The book that we're featuring this evening
Speaker 5: is Boy Missing, The Search for Kyne Horman, with my
Speaker 5: special guest, journalist and author Rebecca Moore. Welcome back to
Speaker 5: the program, and thank you very much for this interview.
Speaker 5: Rebecca Morris.
Speaker 6: Yeah, hi, Dan, it's great to be back with you again.
Speaker 7: Great to have you back. Thank you very much. You
Speaker 7: talk about June fourth, twenty ten, and that's the day
Speaker 7: you and others began following this case of Tyen Horman's disappearance,
Speaker 7: as you do in the book. Let's not waste any time.
Speaker 7: Let's get right to June fourth, twenty ten. Set the
Speaker 7: stage where this is this school, the Skyline Elementary tell
Speaker 7: us about this school and what were the situation that
Speaker 7: presented itself at that school that day with all these
Speaker 7: extra people not a normal day at this school. Tell
Speaker 7: us about this, Yeah, no it wasn't.
Speaker 6: Excuse me. Skyline Elementary School is in Portland, Oregon, but
Speaker 6: is not in the city limits. It's in Lullemick and
Speaker 6: it's about sixteen miles northwest Seat near the city of Portland.
Speaker 6: And that was a very busy day at the school.
Speaker 6: There was one week left of school. Kien was seven
Speaker 6: years old in second grade and it was the day
Speaker 6: of the school science fare. All the students in the
Speaker 6: sixth grades plus kindergarten had done science exhibits. Chyen had
Speaker 6: done his on the Red Eyed True Fraud and had
Speaker 6: a diorama. Worked very hard on this. So there were
Speaker 6: four hundred extra people in this small rural school on
Speaker 6: June tenth because they were you know, parents' grandparents, siblings
Speaker 6: who'd come on that Friday to see the science exhibits.
Speaker 6: Kiren lived with his father and his step mother. That's
Speaker 6: the long story we'll get into. I'm sure about why
Speaker 6: he was only part time with his birth mother, who
Speaker 6: is uh a couple hundred miles south in Oregon. But
Speaker 6: his l stepmother said that they walked around school. She
Speaker 6: took a picture of him in front of his red
Speaker 6: eyed tree frog exhibit, and then she said she waved
Speaker 6: to him as he went into his classroom and she
Speaker 6: and her nineteen month old Uh, baby girl. UH left
Speaker 6: for for several hours. When uh Cain Horman, Karen's father
Speaker 6: and his stepmother, Terry Hormon, went to meet the bus
Speaker 6: in the afternoon, Uh Uh Kyron wasn't on the bus
Speaker 6: and they immediately rushed to the school. Uh. One of
Speaker 6: the the fattest parts of this is he'd been missing
Speaker 6: six hours before anybody knew he was missing. That's a lot.
Speaker 6: That's a lot of time when uh, after a child
Speaker 6: is is abducted or or missing a long time.
Speaker 7: Let's talk about the situation. We just did a brief
Speaker 7: outline of what happens that day. There's a sign and
Speaker 7: Sarah set up and there was all these people and
Speaker 7: unlike schools today, I guess some people would be familiar with,
Speaker 7: there was no name tags. The school was unlocked. There
Speaker 7: were seven doors in and out of the school that
Speaker 7: were unlocked, so kind of different sense of security. I
Speaker 7: think that we might understand today president at schools. Yeah,
Speaker 7: but tell us about right no cameras as well, and
Speaker 7: very important tell us about the living situation that Kyen
Speaker 7: was in with his father Kine, the stepmother Terry, and
Speaker 7: his real mother Desiree and her new husband Tony tell
Speaker 7: us about the situation and why Desirie was not Kyen
Speaker 7: was not principally living with Desiree.
Speaker 6: Yeah, and this is something that immediately people left to
Speaker 6: some assumption, Well, there must your reason he wasn't living
Speaker 6: with his birth mother. Well, the reason was that she
Speaker 6: had been had had now had shared custody. I d
Speaker 6: so Desiree Young, who's Karen's UH birth mother, and she
Speaker 6: had uh remarried and was married to Tony Young, who's
Speaker 6: a a detective in the Midford, Oregon Police Department. And UH.
Speaker 6: When Desiree was had divorced her second husband came somebody
Speaker 6: somebody said, you need a scorecard to keep track of
Speaker 6: all the marriages, And that's that's the v That's very possible.
Speaker 6: But she also had a a son by an earlier
Speaker 6: UH marriage. And you know, Desiree never had good health.
Speaker 6: She went to UH Canada UH one summer to to
Speaker 6: seek some medical treatment, and when she came back, the
Speaker 6: two men who were the fathers of her sons would
Speaker 6: not give the children back. She's fat fought a long
Speaker 6: court battle, and a judge finally decided and poor one
Speaker 6: that the boys should stay where they'd been living for
Speaker 6: a couple of years and it was just kind of heartbreaking. So, uh,
Speaker 6: Desiree did have you know, partial custody and both boys
Speaker 6: uh when when Kyne was seven, uh her other son
Speaker 6: was fifteen at the time, I believe, And so they
Speaker 6: spent you know, a lot. Half half their lives were
Speaker 6: in Medford with with the Tony and Desiree, but but
Speaker 6: half their lives were with their father respective fathers and
Speaker 6: stepmothers and step siblings in the Portland area. It was
Speaker 6: that weekend, June tenth, was I'm sorry, June fourth was uh,
Speaker 6: Desiree's weekend to get the boys. So she was driving,
Speaker 6: she would have been driving to Portland anyway to pick
Speaker 6: up the boys, but she got a phone call from
Speaker 6: the school's secretary around four o'clock, you know, notifying her
Speaker 6: that Kyne was missing. And course she you know, really
Speaker 6: rushed up to Portland. Then everybody kind of assumed it
Speaker 6: was probably you know, he was taken from the school,
Speaker 6: or he went wandering outside during the confusion and was
Speaker 6: lost or something. But it was you know, actually a
Speaker 6: much darker kind of you know, missing child story.
Speaker 7: The idea that tell us more about this science fair
Speaker 7: itself in terms of what Terry said in terms of
Speaker 7: the timeline, she said, she went there, they went to
Speaker 7: some of the exhibits and then of course classes started
Speaker 7: after that. So explain this science fair and how it
Speaker 7: was conducted. But then the kids went into their classrooms.
Speaker 7: Why was why was he not reported missing? Tell us
Speaker 7: about that earlier arrangement that Terry had made and may
Speaker 7: have added to the confusion that day.
Speaker 6: Sure, well, the Terry Horn and the stepmother. It was
Speaker 6: also her third third marriage. She uh, you know was Uh.
Speaker 6: The police have never used the word suspect because there
Speaker 6: are all kinds of legal legal ramifications with that. They
Speaker 6: haven't been able to charge her. But she definitely was,
Speaker 6: you know, the suspect from that first weekend, and very
Speaker 6: much with uh, with police and in course with Desiray
Speaker 6: and her family. Uh. They just I immediately thought Terry
Speaker 6: had a hand in this, and in fact, it looks
Speaker 6: like it was planned because she picked today. Uh if
Speaker 6: she is responsible for Comment's disappearance, and we think so
Speaker 6: she picked today when there'd be a lot of confusion
Speaker 6: at the school. And she said that she'd parked in
Speaker 6: the school parking lot and she didn't and and was
Speaker 6: actually caught later in in several lives. But as you mentioned,
Speaker 6: the doors were open, there were no security cameras, no
Speaker 6: name takes nothing. She they walked around looking at the
Speaker 6: science exhibits. The the reason that he that nobody knew
Speaker 6: kyron was gone was that, uh his second grade teacher
Speaker 6: knew he was because Terry, the stepmother, had sent her
Speaker 6: an email a couple of days before that she'd be
Speaker 6: taking Kyroen to a doctor's appointment, and so the teacher
Speaker 6: marked him absent, but it was called an excused absence.
Speaker 6: And because there, you know, in the corner of the
Speaker 6: room was Kyrone's jacket and backpack where they had left it,
Speaker 6: and that he was going to the doctor, well Terry
Speaker 6: said she left him at school, and in fact, the
Speaker 6: doctor's appointment was uh reportedly for a week later. So
Speaker 6: just you know, the confusion, that simple, the that that
Speaker 6: confusion just just caused a a lot more confusion. So
Speaker 6: it wasn't until the uh a m until he didn't
Speaker 6: get off the school us six hours later that the
Speaker 6: school knew he was really missing and hadn't come back
Speaker 6: after some doctor's appointment. And there are other really significant
Speaker 6: lives that Terry Hormon was caught in I report for
Speaker 6: the first time in the book that she was seen
Speaker 6: leaving the school with him and with her infant daughter,
Speaker 6: that there were there were a couple of adults and
Speaker 6: classmates of cards who saw her leave the school with him.
Speaker 6: So that's that's pretty powerful, you know, circumstantial evidence.
Speaker 7: But we don't see that right away, and everybody doesn't
Speaker 7: find this out. And it's a very interesting dynamic in
Speaker 7: that right away Desiree and her husband Tony now tell
Speaker 7: our audience who Tony is. And also this is quite
Speaker 7: a drive before they get to the house, before they
Speaker 7: get to Terry and their ex husband Kine's how and
Speaker 7: again the surprising, the surprises once they get there, the
Speaker 7: things that don't seem right to them, tell us about
Speaker 7: who Tony is, and a little bit about their visit
Speaker 7: and their impression when they got to the home of Terry.
Speaker 6: So Tony Young, Desiree's husband is, and Kyron's stepfather. He
Speaker 6: was just an amazing, amazing part of this book because
Speaker 6: he was a he's just retired in the last month,
Speaker 6: but he was a you know, twenty year veteran detective
Speaker 6: in Medford, Oregon. Basically his whole adult life, he'd been
Speaker 6: a detective, and he and his friends fellow detectives were
Speaker 6: there in Portland observing everything, you know, for months, for years,
Speaker 6: really for ten years. And so they were told and
Speaker 6: Tony was told, you know, don't go near the command center,
Speaker 6: don't talk, don't talk to cops up here. And you know,
Speaker 6: he knew there was a good reason for that, but
Speaker 6: they were there observing, and you know, you can, you
Speaker 6: can dim the switch a little, but she can't turn
Speaker 6: it off. And so their impressions were, you know, terribly
Speaker 6: important to the book. The book was pretty difficult to
Speaker 6: do because it's an open case and that means there's
Speaker 6: no case file to look at. Detectives aren't gonna talk
Speaker 6: to you you know, there's no there's been no charging,
Speaker 6: there's no you know, trial transcript, none of that. So
Speaker 6: the people that were there, uh, observing and watching uh
Speaker 6: were very important to this. But what you're l what
Speaker 6: you're referring to, is when Tony and Desiree finally arrive
Speaker 6: at at to Kane's house where Kiren lived, you know,
Speaker 6: the stepmother, Terry Horman, throws open the door and welcomes
Speaker 6: them and greets them and says there's lots of food
Speaker 6: that's been dropped off and they said it's literally it
Speaker 6: was so weird. It was like she was hosting a party.
Speaker 6: There was nothing said about gush. I'm sorry, uh there.
Speaker 6: You know, she hadn't been crying. Everybody else was crying,
Speaker 6: but she just acted like, you know, shoes kind of
Speaker 6: host to sing a party.
Speaker 7: It's very interesting too when you talk about the reaction
Speaker 7: from Terry, but also that police wanted the parents to
Speaker 7: be in the same house. So they tell us about this,
Speaker 7: tell us about this in a very unique request in
Speaker 7: light of what had happened, and to keep these witnesses
Speaker 7: and this crime scenes secure. What did the detectives request
Speaker 7: these four parents do.
Speaker 6: Well, that was one of the most interesting things. And
Speaker 6: you know, I don't think it's unusual for police to
Speaker 6: kind of lock down a house. And remember Kane's house
Speaker 6: was considered one of two possible crime scenes. There was
Speaker 6: the school and there was Kane's house. But usually when
Speaker 6: they're locking down, you know and keeping f it might
Speaker 6: be one, you know, one family and they stay with
Speaker 6: the family to answer the phone calls and kind of
Speaker 6: had a base of operations there. But here you have
Speaker 6: you know, uh, a blended family, a family that had
Speaker 6: not blended very well mm and who didn't really like
Speaker 6: each other very much. And uh uh although Tony and
Speaker 6: and Desiree you know got along uh fairly well with
Speaker 6: k with Kane, especially that that first year that Kyerne
Speaker 6: was missing, but it was just strange. They they had
Speaker 6: to all sleep there and stay there, and if they
Speaker 6: were eating, they ate meals there, and that lasted lasted
Speaker 6: several days. And it's so I think the police were
Speaker 6: really smart about, you know that observing, uh, the interactions
Speaker 6: and having people observe Terry Horman who you know, were
Speaker 6: not married to her, who were i you know, in
Speaker 6: her life, but but who were you know, could be
Speaker 6: somewhat maybe a little bit have er observations that her
Speaker 6: husband might have. They did kind of align themselves with
Speaker 6: Cain Terry's husband early on and had him wearing a
Speaker 6: wire nobody else knew about it. But that lasted several days,
Speaker 6: and then eventually Desiree and Tony were allowed to move
Speaker 6: to a motel, but they had to spend their days
Speaker 6: still back at the house, and there was a command
Speaker 6: center nearby for you know, all law enforcement, just you know,
Speaker 6: like forty agencies. But Bill the House was kind of
Speaker 6: ground zero for those.
Speaker 7: The people that don't know how big a case was
Speaker 7: this for the media and how big and what was
Speaker 7: the magnitude of the search that was that they'd underway.
Speaker 6: Well, it was. It's a huge story. It still is,
Speaker 6: and not just you know, I grew up in Oregons
Speaker 6: kind of you know, defend a little bit of the
Speaker 6: fact that it, yes, it's an Oregon story, but it
Speaker 6: was as as national and international as anything you can name,
Speaker 6: as you know, as as Madeline mechan and missing in
Speaker 6: Portugal or or uh uh you know, uh uh just
Speaker 6: you know Natalie Holloway, you know, uh Casey Anthony, John
Speaker 6: Beney ram See. It was, it was huge, and it
Speaker 6: was you know, uh, the the the parents, just Cane
Speaker 6: and as Ray, they were on uh doctor Phil, they
Speaker 6: were on Oprah datelined, I mean, and and not only
Speaker 6: in that in that at that time, but national media
Speaker 6: continues to cover this, including uh the tenth anniversary, which
Speaker 6: was uh just two two weeks ago, as you know,
Speaker 6: So it's it's a big story locally, a big story
Speaker 6: nationally and the fact that you know that a child
Speaker 6: like you said in the lead that a child miss
Speaker 6: missing from their school is pretty unusual, and Ernie Allen,
Speaker 6: who's the retired now head of nick NICK, the National
Speaker 6: Center for Missing and Exploited Children in both this country
Speaker 6: and in Europe, has said that you know where, where
Speaker 6: a child goes missing from the situation has a lot
Speaker 6: to do with how the story is covered by the
Speaker 6: media and what catches. You know, what catches.
Speaker 3: With the Lucky Landslides, you can get lucky just about anywhere.
Speaker 4: As is your captain speaking. We've got clear runway and
Speaker 4: the weather's fine, but we're just going to circle up
Speaker 4: here a while and get lucky. Oh no, nothing like that.
Speaker 4: It's just these cash prizes add up quick, So I
Speaker 4: suggest you sit back, keep your trade table up right,
Speaker 4: and start getting lucky.
Speaker 3: Say for free at Lucky Landslides dot com. Are you
Speaker 3: feeling lucky? No purchases void were prohibited by Law eighteen plus.
Speaker 3: Terms and conditions apply. See website for details. With Lucky Landslots,
Speaker 3: you can get lucky just about anywhere.
Speaker 5: Dearly beloved, we are gathered here today.
Speaker 4: Has anyone seen the bride and groom? Mury?
Speaker 3: Sorry we're here.
Speaker 4: We were getting lucky in the limo and we lost
Speaker 4: track of time.
Speaker 1: No Lucky Land casino with cash prizes that add up
Speaker 1: quicker than a guess registered in luck case, I pronounce
Speaker 1: you lucky.
Speaker 3: Thanks for free at Lucky landslots dot com. Dagley bonuses
Speaker 3: are waiting, no purchase necessary void. We're prohibited by Law
Speaker 3: eighteen plus terms and conditions applying. See website for details.
Speaker 6: The media's interest in this case, You know, this story
Speaker 6: just kept it just kept paying off and paying off
Speaker 6: and paying off. Because it turns out that the stepmother,
Speaker 6: Terry Horman, was you know, a real, real piece of something,
Speaker 6: and all kinds of things materialized and in the next
Speaker 6: few weeks with regard to her, and you know, it
Speaker 6: just was a story that that never well, it didn't end,
Speaker 6: but not just because Kiren hasn't been found. It just
Speaker 6: continues to play out to this day.
Speaker 7: Right. This really is also, of course, Desiree's personal story,
Speaker 7: and you do talk about Desiree's problem problem background her childhood,
Speaker 7: but also that Desiree does everything and I know that
Speaker 7: this is a common story with these mothers, but she
Speaker 7: goes over and beyond to try to do everything in
Speaker 7: her power to try to get who she thinks is
Speaker 7: a suspect, is the suspect Kiren's stepmother, and find out
Speaker 7: why to pressure everybody she possibly could, to reach out
Speaker 7: to the media, to do everything she possibly could, and
Speaker 7: then still did more. Lay became an advocate and dedicated
Speaker 7: her life to the cause, and still held out hope
Speaker 7: for that her boy was still alive, remarkably after all
Speaker 7: these years. Tell us a little bit more about Desiree
Speaker 7: and the efforts and the extent that she did to
Speaker 7: keep this story alive, to have other people involved and
Speaker 7: everything she did. Tell us a little bit more.
Speaker 6: Yeah, well, I will correct one thing you said. As
Speaker 6: early as I believe it was the first or second week,
Speaker 6: and he was missing. She had a moment where she
Speaker 6: felt Kiren came to her and was telling her that
Speaker 6: he was gone. So she early on she didn't tell
Speaker 6: anybody for her husband, but she believed by the second
Speaker 6: week that Kiren was dead. It's Paine who continues to
Speaker 6: believe that Kiren is somewhere. Maybe he was handed off
Speaker 6: or he was sold or something. So she really accepted
Speaker 6: early on he's dead, but she wants him back. She
Speaker 6: will do anything that she can, and it's really I
Speaker 6: think what Uh. One of the things that's really unique
Speaker 6: about her is that she, you know, is a CoP's wife,
Speaker 6: she's a detective's wife, so she knew there were parameters
Speaker 6: to what she could do and that sometimes the most
Speaker 6: effective thing is to let the person who's the suspect,
Speaker 6: you know, ramp talk, uh, look bad, paint themselves. You know,
Speaker 6: Uh they're let them, let them do damage to themselves,
Speaker 6: as as Terry Horman did with this, and kind of
Speaker 6: in a way, you're doing everything you can for your son,
Speaker 6: but you're also respectful of things have to play out.
Speaker 6: And I think she was, you know, is terribly wise
Speaker 6: in a way that that most parents wouldn't be. That
Speaker 6: the woman who did this most likely is going to
Speaker 6: be her own worst enemies, and uh that that eventually,
Speaker 6: you know, uh, she'll get tripped up, and she has been.
Speaker 6: She has been tripped up several times. But uh, Desiree
Speaker 6: has uh done some things that that I don't know, uh,
Speaker 6: that most parents maybe wouldn't do. She after the first
Speaker 6: couple of years of searching, which was extensive, and and
Speaker 6: I'll mention that, but she's organized some private searches and
Speaker 6: you know, she she does it and then she tells
Speaker 6: the police who are still investigating, you know that, oh tomorrow,
Speaker 6: I've got some you know, trained searchers coming in and
Speaker 6: we were volunteering to to go over some places. So
Speaker 6: she was, you know, pretty savvy in that way. And
Speaker 6: she admits the very first time they did that, they
Speaker 6: didn't know what they were doing. But she and her sister,
Speaker 6: who is at her side all the time, they they
Speaker 6: figured out how to do this. But the search was extensive.
Speaker 6: It was hundreds of thousands of acres. And what complicated
Speaker 6: it is that it wasn't you know, they don't live
Speaker 6: in a city like you know, Elizabeth Smart was taken
Speaker 6: in Utah from from the home. It was in the
Speaker 6: middle of a city, and then you know, kept for
Speaker 6: a while up in back on this wooded hillside. This
Speaker 6: is a rural area. So they had the the roads
Speaker 6: and I've driven them many times in that area. Are
Speaker 6: you know it's it's it's you know, old forest. It's
Speaker 6: very steep terrain on one side and then ravines on
Speaker 6: the other side. The areas they had to search were
Speaker 6: just extremely dense. We're talking you know, chest high ferns
Speaker 6: and bushes and woods, and they which part of the
Speaker 6: geography that may also play a part of the story
Speaker 6: is that just to the east is where two rivers,
Speaker 6: the Columbia the Willamite meet, and there's an island saw
Speaker 6: the island there, and there are you know, ponds, lakes, marshes,
Speaker 6: And there's this story that may be an urban myth,
Speaker 6: or may not be an urban myth, that fisherman, you know,
Speaker 6: went overboard one day and was never seen again. Because
Speaker 6: the current will take you to the Pacific Ocean, which
Speaker 6: is just one hundred miles away. So the current very
Speaker 6: fast and there's all this water. Terry Horman, one of
Speaker 6: the most important things is she's off the grid for
Speaker 6: two and a half hours that morning after she supposedly
Speaker 6: left Chylan at school. She said she was driving around
Speaker 6: trying to quiet her infant daughter, that she had a earache,
Speaker 6: and uh, she stopped at two stores looking for motron.
Speaker 6: You can't see by the angles of the camera if
Speaker 6: there's anybody in the you know, on the floor of
Speaker 6: the h a truck or back feet or anything. But
Speaker 6: she does buy some stuff and then she's, you know,
Speaker 6: nowhere to be seen for two and a half hours.
Speaker 6: Her cell phone ping's on a tower that's right in
Speaker 6: the middle between the island and the rivers I told
Speaker 6: you about. And then right where the where the school is.
Speaker 6: And she just said she was driving back roads trying
Speaker 6: to keep her daughter uh asleep, and it's po you
Speaker 6: know there there's some sightings of her truck. Uh. She
Speaker 6: said she pulled over and you know, changed the diaper
Speaker 6: or something. Then she uh stopped at her gym. Uh
Speaker 6: she lied about how long she was there, and and
Speaker 6: then she's back home and you know on Facebook and
Speaker 6: post the fix the picture if she took of Kiren
Speaker 6: at school and touching base with Desiree about the picture,
Speaker 6: and then she and her little girl and Kyen's father
Speaker 6: walked to meet the bus and and he's not on
Speaker 6: the bus. So Uh. There's also a friend of uh
Speaker 6: of Terry Hormon's, we find out a couple of weeks
Speaker 6: later who's missing from her job during that same two hours,
Speaker 6: that's right. And they've never been able to you know,
Speaker 6: decide if she was you know, if Terry picked her
Speaker 6: up and she helped her or what she what she knew. Uh,
Speaker 6: they're pretty close mouths about all this. And then eventually
Speaker 6: in the first couple of weeks so Terry Rmon fails
Speaker 6: to light detect her tests and walks away on the.
Speaker 7: Third right, what do police do in terms of uh
Speaker 7: grand jury? In terms of them compelling her dancing or questions?
Speaker 7: They realized her timeline is fraught with uh problems, and
Speaker 7: that and their chi timeline changes and their story changes
Speaker 7: to accommodate the last story and the changes. How do
Speaker 7: police proceed with those polygraphs? And what's their option uh
Speaker 7: to deal with her in this case?
Speaker 6: Well, of course, you know, she was never named a suspect,
Speaker 6: and people have you know, people have rights. They she
Speaker 6: never uh was called before the grand jury. She you know,
Speaker 6: had the right to walk out of a third polygraph. Uh.
Speaker 6: Things happened very quickly uh after the first to in
Speaker 6: about the three week mark, and uh which you know,
Speaker 6: she suddenly found herself on her own and she hired
Speaker 6: the most expensive, the best known criminal defense lawyer in
Speaker 6: and she didn't have to talk anymore to the police
Speaker 6: or or appeared before a grand jury. So they didn't
Speaker 6: they didn't you know, have uh uh uh uh uh
Speaker 6: much much p place to go. The law enforcement didn't
Speaker 6: uh after that except trying to pick apart her timeline
Speaker 6: which you know, the parents were all asked that first evening,
Speaker 6: you know, get into a timeline, tell us exactly where
Speaker 6: you were.
Speaker 7: Uh.
Speaker 6: Desiree and Tony were, of course, uh, you know, very
Speaker 6: quickly ruled out because they were three hundred miles away
Speaker 6: in southern Oregon and it was easy to tell that.
Speaker 6: But they did timelines anyway. Carrie was the only one
Speaker 6: who had trouble doing a timeline and kept changing it.
Speaker 6: So even after her first one where she talks about
Speaker 6: topping stopping at the two UH stores looking promotron, then
Speaker 6: she cooked up other places that she said she stopped,
Speaker 6: but there was no for any proof that she stopped
Speaker 6: at the dry cleaners or stopped at the arts and
Speaker 6: craft store. But it just got very muddy very quickly,
Speaker 6: and all the parents, you know, were pretty suspicious of
Speaker 6: her very quickly.
Speaker 7: We're going to stop for a second to talk about
Speaker 7: our sponsor, which is fat fit Fun. Time to customize
Speaker 7: your fab fit Fun box for the summer season. My
Speaker 7: wife Lisa was excited, of course to receive another fab
Speaker 7: Fit Fun summer box and everything inside. She especially liked
Speaker 7: the insulated picnic bag from Business and Pleasure and the
Speaker 7: rediffuser from Solstice and from Myriad, the Environmental Shield energizing
Speaker 7: cleansing cream. She's always excited to get another fat fit
Speaker 7: Fun box. Every box is curated specifically to each person.
Speaker 7: Because you select what goes into your box each season.
Speaker 7: It's the perfect way to treat yourself or someone else
Speaker 7: get the products you really want when you customize your
Speaker 7: box online. With most of the items customizable, the boxes
Speaker 7: sellow fast, so sign up for yours today. Also connect
Speaker 7: with women throughout the world in fabfit Funds community forum.
Speaker 7: Join a member's only club for cooking or books, or
Speaker 7: meet new friends to swap products with. Fabfit Fun is
Speaker 7: a seasonal subscription box with full size beauty, fitness, fashion
Speaker 7: and lifestyle products. Sign up today to receive your first
Speaker 7: box and join a community of over one million women
Speaker 7: are already obsessed. Use coupon code murder for ten dollars
Speaker 7: off your first box at fabfitfund dot com. It retails
Speaker 7: for forty nine to ninety nine, but always has a
Speaker 7: value over two hundred. That's ten dollars off when you
Speaker 7: use code murder at fabfitfun dot com. Now, Rebecca, we
Speaker 7: were talking about the everyone looking at the only suspect
Speaker 7: it's seemed in this case was Terry Horman. But Desiree
Speaker 7: and Tony are privy to some things from the investigators
Speaker 7: that are in this task force and are trying to
Speaker 7: solve this case, and they're finding more and more about
Speaker 7: Terry's personal life, the relationship with Cain, but also a
Speaker 7: possible motive for why she would want to harm Kiren.
Speaker 7: Tell us about a little bit of the information she
Speaker 7: finds out in this investigation.
Speaker 6: Well, especially in the first few months, Desiree comes to
Speaker 6: believe that Terry has been manipulating, manipulating Karen and scaring
Speaker 6: him and hiding his favorite toys and books, and she
Speaker 6: apparently cooked up a scheme where it is classroom, I mean,
Speaker 6: she told Desiree and she told Cain that Kyron was
Speaker 6: being you know, he'd get a red card for the
Speaker 6: day in his second grade, and that Mandy should be disciplined,
Speaker 6: and you know, other parents in the classroom I talked
Speaker 6: to said this this color coding, you know, uh, disciplined
Speaker 6: system just didn't exist. It simply didn't exist. And so
Speaker 6: Doesiray realized that that you know when when, and she
Speaker 6: wishes she'd she thought Kyro, she thought King I'm sorry
Speaker 6: she thought Kyron as far as you know, crying when
Speaker 6: he was in Medford and saying he didn't wanna go
Speaker 6: back to Portland. You know, everybody thought it was just
Speaker 6: kind of a normal, you know, a step family kind
Speaker 6: of situation that is not unneat, but she uh Doesirey
Speaker 6: found out a couple of months uh into this, that
Speaker 6: Terry had been uh emailing friends talking about how much
Speaker 6: she hated Kyron and uh how much she didn't wanna be,
Speaker 6: you know, a stepmother and his stepmother, and that in fact,
Speaker 6: Cain and Terry been having uh marriage problems. She found
Speaker 6: out that they had fought uh til three a m.
Speaker 6: On the night that in the morning that that Kyron
Speaker 6: went missing, and uh Terry thought King was having an affair,
Speaker 6: and uh uh she you know, the motive seemed to
Speaker 6: be that she wanted Terry wanted to get out of
Speaker 6: this marriage and have custody of her daughter, the nineteen
Speaker 6: month old girl, and whatever she had to do to
Speaker 6: get rid of both Cain and Karen. And the the
Speaker 6: only good thing I can say about Terry Horman is
Speaker 6: that uh uh the year before, in two thousand nine,
Speaker 6: she tried to get Cain to let Kyra and go
Speaker 6: live with Desiree in Medford, and the you know, Terry,
Speaker 6: the stepmother, tried to do that and Kane wouldn't allow it. Yeah,
Speaker 6: and so then it became how does she get rid
Speaker 6: of both of them? Maybe get you know, really get
Speaker 6: rid of Kane and have his life insurance. Send Chiren
Speaker 6: back to Desiree and then she and her daughter would
Speaker 6: you know, have the life insurance and start a new life.
Speaker 6: It sounds crazy, I mean it was, it is sure,
Speaker 6: but that appeared to be her motive, whatever it would
Speaker 6: take to be rid of both her husband and her stepson,
Speaker 6: and that's what she you know, undertook.
Speaker 7: There was also a resentment for her son from a
Speaker 7: previous married named John, that was forced to go live
Speaker 7: with the grandparents, and she resented Kin for that. Could
Speaker 7: you explain that? Well?
Speaker 6: Yes, so her son who was a teenager, uh, her
Speaker 6: son by her first marriage to and Terry's second husband,
Speaker 6: had adopted him. But uh, he was a teenager, as
Speaker 6: was Desiree's other son, and he lived with Kine and
Speaker 6: Terry and Kyroen. And he does ray believe that he
Speaker 6: that John was uh, you know, a partner in kind
Speaker 6: of uh manipulating Kyron and giving him a hard time.
Speaker 6: And uh this is you know, we're a little bit
Speaker 6: unclear about exactly what happened, but John was sent to Roseberg,
Speaker 6: where where Terry's parents lived, so he lived with his grandparents,
Speaker 6: and uh Caine said it happened when he was out
Speaker 6: of town. But uh Terry blamed Kane and blamed Kyroen
Speaker 6: for that, that that her son was sent away, but
Speaker 6: that you know, Kyen could still live there. So all
Speaker 6: of this was building up, uh Cain said. Later admitted
Speaker 6: wh when a in a in divor both divorce and
Speaker 6: uh custody battle. Also that uh Terry was drinking a lot.
Speaker 6: He'd found her passed out at night with you know,
Speaker 6: with the two young children, uh kind of you know,
Speaker 6: on their own there. And uh years before before she married,
Speaker 6: uh came, she'd had uh a not uh quite a
Speaker 6: number of speeding tickets and and tickets, but she'd also
Speaker 6: had a ady with her son in the car, which
Speaker 6: is pretty serious business. That's in you know, y you
Speaker 6: lose your license for a year and you have to
Speaker 6: go to alcohol counseling and everything. If you have a
Speaker 6: minor in in the car when you're stopped. So things
Speaker 6: were kind of you know, coming to light over time.
Speaker 6: But but to find out, as desiree found out that
Speaker 6: that Terry really hated kyn and you know, wanted something
Speaker 6: to happen to him, that was you know, that was
Speaker 6: that was pretty disturbing.
Speaker 2: You're dedicated to building a bright financial future. Grow your
Speaker 2: investments with Millibank's Highyield Savings account. Earn a highly competitive
Speaker 2: annual percentage yield with no fees or minimums. Getting started
Speaker 2: is simple to download the app, link your account and
Speaker 2: start growing your money. Welcome to a new way to
Speaker 2: save more for the things that matter most. Welcome to Millibank,
Speaker 2: visit Milli dot bank or download the Milli app today.
Speaker 7: Now let's get back to what the police are trying
Speaker 7: to do here. I mean, they've assembled a lot of
Speaker 7: detective they spent a lot of money. You talk about
Speaker 7: this search and this investigation one point four million, So
Speaker 7: there was a lot of dedication to this incredible amount
Speaker 7: of money spent in the search. But they was a
Speaker 7: quest to be able to convict this woman. So they
Speaker 7: tried a few ploys. This case of course of sex
Speaker 7: and that we talk about sexting and adultery. So that's
Speaker 7: what really gets people's attention, even more so than than
Speaker 7: a boy kidnapped from a school. But this is really
Speaker 7: gets people interested. So there wasn't an opportunity by the
Speaker 7: prosecutors to try to attempt to do something to pressure Terry.
Speaker 6: What was that Well, shortly after Kyron went missing, probably
Speaker 6: I think about the three or four week marks a
Speaker 6: they find of course, they're reading Terry's emails and her
Speaker 6: you know, her computer and her cell phone, and they
Speaker 6: find out that she had hired a landscaper at some point,
Speaker 6: and somehow they find out she'd never told her husband
Speaker 6: about it. So they decided, gosh, why would you hire
Speaker 6: a landscaper and keep it secret? So they found him
Speaker 6: and he said that she had tried to hire him well,
Speaker 6: to find somebody that would kill her husband. So could
Speaker 6: his name's Rodolpho Sanchez. Would he help her find somebody
Speaker 6: who could you know, who'd be a hit man? And
Speaker 6: she offered him ten thousand dollars and you know, he
Speaker 6: didn't say much and turned her down apparently, But eventually
Speaker 6: the police find him and she had also as early
Speaker 6: as the fall of two thousand and nine, several months
Speaker 6: before talked to somebody else about could could they help
Speaker 6: her find a hitman? And so they send Rodolpho the
Speaker 6: landscaper with an undercover cop wearing a wire to the
Speaker 6: house and to talk to Terry and basically to tell
Speaker 6: her to ask her, are you still interested? You know,
Speaker 6: are you still interested in finding somebody to kill your husband?
Speaker 6: And she was suspicious and didn't fall for it and
Speaker 6: called the police in fact, uh uh not realizing they
Speaker 6: were the police. And uh so she that she couldn't
Speaker 6: wasn't really implicated uh in that, but but they believed that.
Speaker 6: Uh when she said that, uh, the uh landscape her
Speaker 6: had you know, come on to her, and he was
Speaker 6: getting back at her because she turned her down. But
Speaker 6: he he he initially said that she had you know,
Speaker 6: she'd also propositioned him sexually. So it just got really messy. Uh.
Speaker 6: Within also a week or two of that, they well,
Speaker 6: when they told me before I moved forward, when they
Speaker 6: told kin about you know, she tried to hire somebody
Speaker 6: to kill you. So he and and the y daughter
Speaker 6: flee the house and she finds herself, you know, all
Speaker 6: alone there. But also within a couple of weeks they
Speaker 6: uh they offer her a deal. They have all kinds
Speaker 6: of you know, she's been uh sexting a uh guy
Speaker 6: who is a class high school classmate of Knes and
Speaker 6: who's hanging around a lot, and they've got new pictures
Speaker 6: of her that she sent and uh sexting, and and
Speaker 6: they said, uh, you know, she'll tell them where where
Speaker 6: Kyne is, they'll they'll make a deal with her and
Speaker 6: not reveal all this, and she she turned it down,
Speaker 6: so they they let all that information come out, which
Speaker 6: is something you know, doctor Phil really uh dug into
Speaker 6: and you know loved to blow up on the on
Speaker 6: the screen when she was on the show with him.
Speaker 6: She did her own two hour interview with doctor Phil
Speaker 6: a few years later. So she's offered a deal. Meanwhile,
Speaker 6: her friend and from who was also off the grid
Speaker 6: that day, missing from her job, moves into house with
Speaker 6: her for eleven days or something. Yeah, and uh uh
Speaker 6: there are people that think that dedes By sher knows
Speaker 6: exactly what happened and what happened to kyn She was
Speaker 6: she said she talked to the grand jury eventually, Uh
Speaker 6: Desiree's not sure of that. She was deposed in uh
Speaker 6: uh later in a civil lawsuit that that Desiree brought
Speaker 6: against Terry Hormon, and uh she just you know, she
Speaker 6: played the the Fifth Amendments. I think it's a hundred
Speaker 6: and forty nine times during her d deposition, so uh
Speaker 6: not much information from there this I I will say
Speaker 6: it's it was really interesting the because the police didn't
Speaker 6: want the parents to speak, uh initially M and you know,
Speaker 6: you see you s see everything you see uh people
Speaker 6: like you know, like Elizabeth Smart's parents who who uh
Speaker 6: spoke about her and and Susan Cox Powell's parents, and
Speaker 6: and then the parents who you know are lying about
Speaker 6: their missing children, like like Susan Smith and uh Casey
Speaker 6: Anthony and but the police, as we were talking about,
Speaker 6: kept kept uh very a very low profile with the
Speaker 6: parents on this. So the media, you know, all they
Speaker 6: could do is get into the juicy stuff, which which
Speaker 6: very much upset Desiree that m you know, they'd be folke.
Speaker 6: The the lot of the stories at that time focused
Speaker 6: on you know, the sexting, the marriages, the you know,
Speaker 6: their Desiree and family wouldn't talk to the media, but
Speaker 6: Terrrie Horman's friends would tell the media, well, Terry's really
Speaker 6: the boy his mother Terry raised and you know, he
Speaker 6: thinks of Terry as mother, and so it was very
Speaker 6: very hurtful news coverage for Desiree.
Speaker 7: And also they also questioned initially too, why would the
Speaker 7: mother not be living with the son, and so they
Speaker 7: questioned her and they.
Speaker 6: Make assumptions that there must be something wrong with the
Speaker 6: birth letter, and you know there and there wasn't. It
Speaker 6: was just that her two ex husbands when she wanted
Speaker 6: to take the boys to Canada with her when she
Speaker 6: was going to have treatment for kidney disease, and they
Speaker 6: wouldn't give her, you know, the letters, the paperwork to
Speaker 6: take her children across the border to Canada. And then
Speaker 6: when she finally said, okay, well they can stay with
Speaker 6: you a couple of months, and Tane got it writing
Speaker 6: not that they would you know, it also said they
Speaker 6: would be returned to her. And then when she came
Speaker 6: back after her medical treatment, they wouldn't. They wouldn't give
Speaker 6: her the boys. And she fought for two years long
Speaker 6: and hard, and finally a judge rule they should be
Speaker 6: they should continue to live where they were living, that
Speaker 6: they were young enough that it would make a difference
Speaker 6: to keep living where they were living and she would have,
Speaker 6: you know, half custody. It was a pretty you know,
Speaker 6: it was a dirty deal.
Speaker 7: Now the police are trying to do with all they can,
Speaker 7: and eventually this group of detectives, of the two hundred
Speaker 7: detectives assigned to this, it's all scaled back and there's
Speaker 7: a task force and ends up with just one detective.
Speaker 7: They've tried everything with the grand jury. But she won't
Speaker 7: that DD won't say anything. Terry has got a great lawyer,
Speaker 7: so she doesn't say anything. There's civil lawsuits, but they're
Speaker 7: also worried about the kind of information that could come
Speaker 7: up in these civil lawsuits other than criminal proceedings. Tell
Speaker 7: us a little bit more about the danger the hazard
Speaker 7: of raising certain things at these hearings.
Speaker 6: Well, I believe a civil suit when there hasn't been
Speaker 6: a murdered charge, I think you have just two or
Speaker 6: three years to actually bring a civil suit. So Desiree
Speaker 6: Uh found a good attorney and just about at the
Speaker 6: two year mark, so that'd be June of the twenty twelve,
Speaker 6: she filed a civil suit against Terry Ormon Uh for
Speaker 6: you know, millions of dollars. But that isn't what interested uh.
Speaker 6: Desiree but Desiree, I mean, I'm sorry, Terry would have
Speaker 6: been compelled to say, you know where Kiren is. And
Speaker 6: the what's very tricky here is that Desiree in her
Speaker 6: attorney would really need the police case file such as
Speaker 6: it was at that point. They would need that for
Speaker 6: their civil lawsuit. And Desiree says that the the it's
Speaker 6: the county Sheriff's office actually their detectives you know, grudgingly
Speaker 6: said okay, we'll share it with you when you need it.
Speaker 6: But then the next year when the time came, uh,
Speaker 6: they wouldn't share it with him, and Desiree reluctantly you know,
Speaker 6: uh understood because the only person who knows what the
Speaker 6: police know is Terry Horman, and they don't wanna tip
Speaker 6: their hand and let her know what they know. The
Speaker 6: the sheriff at one point said at a news conference, uh,
Speaker 6: choking up. He said, we know things we wish we
Speaker 6: didn't know. Mm and that that, you know, implies some
Speaker 6: some pretty nasty things. And also at about that time,
Speaker 6: Desiree was told that they'd found Kirne's DNA in the
Speaker 6: ded of his father's pickup truck, which uh was considered
Speaker 6: you know, unusual there's really no reason his DNA should
Speaker 6: be in.
Speaker 7: The rent of the truck.
Speaker 6: And she wasn't told if it was blood or hair
Speaker 6: or urine or what, but but it was DNA. So
Speaker 6: uh when when they couldn't get the police filed to
Speaker 6: continue the civil suit, then they then she had to
Speaker 6: drop had to draw the civil suit. Uh. So it's
Speaker 6: it's very tricky because do you wanna tip you know,
Speaker 6: you wanna I uh explain what the police do know
Speaker 6: or as I get into in the book, and you
Speaker 6: were referring to no body cases, Uh, prosecutors are uh
Speaker 6: you know most of the time reluctant to bring uh
Speaker 6: murder charges when there's no body. Uh it it can
Speaker 6: be done, It can be done successfully. It could be
Speaker 6: prosecuted successfully. But uh, jury's you know, every every potential
Speaker 6: jur in America is watching TV crime shows and forensic shows,
Speaker 6: and there are police who think that that that actually
Speaker 6: hampers cases. Jurors think there should be DNA. Jurors think
Speaker 6: that this can be wrapped up really, you know, quickly,
Speaker 6: and uh it's just not like that. You have to
Speaker 6: go on on you know, uh circumstantial evidence, and I
Speaker 6: I talk to experts who saying, who say, Well, you
Speaker 6: know those eyewitnesses who saw Terry uh leave the school
Speaker 6: with Kiren. That's that's pretty strong circumstantial evidences eyewitnesses. M
Speaker 6: But but to date there's there there been no arrests.
Speaker 7: It's interesting and heartbreaking to see that Desiree every effort
Speaker 7: she makes to try to find her son, to find
Speaker 7: justice for her son. But one of the common things
Speaker 7: that she does is simply just tries to implore Terry
Speaker 7: to speak. Uh. Just tell us a little bit more
Speaker 7: about some of the she reaches out in public through
Speaker 7: the media.
Speaker 6: Yeah, I don't think I don't think there's been one time, uh,
Speaker 6: you know, once within within a couple of months after
Speaker 6: Kiren disappeared, Cain and Desiree and Tony were free to stop,
Speaker 6: to begin to speak. And of course Terry was by then,
Speaker 6: you know, either hunkered down in the house or then
Speaker 6: when she had to leave Kane's South, she you know,
Speaker 6: fled to her parents in southern Oregon, and she would
Speaker 6: appear in Portland for uh you know, various legal uh meetings,
Speaker 6: but she was gone. But they used every opportunity uh
Speaker 6: to you know, to implore her to speak. And I
Speaker 6: think I think to this day, including the tant anniversary
Speaker 6: a couple of weeks ago, that there is no time
Speaker 6: when Desiree talks about Kyen that she doesn't call on Terry. So,
Speaker 6: you know, the the good part of how that is
Speaker 6: it keeps it keeps her focus on Terry. It puts
Speaker 6: it keeps the pressure on her. And I also write
Speaker 6: in the book about you know this amazing community that
Speaker 6: uh you know, adopted Kyen if you will, after he
Speaker 6: went missing. And who the the people who run the
Speaker 6: Facebook pages. You know, they have a half a million
Speaker 6: people that follow this on on Facebook. The people who
Speaker 6: live in California where Terry Horman lives now and kind
Speaker 6: of keep an eye on her. You know, we've been
Speaker 6: told where she works. Uh, she got married for the
Speaker 6: fourth time, you know, about two years ago. You know,
Speaker 6: sometimes we know what job she has, uh, you know,
Speaker 6: all kinds of things, when she buys a house, when
Speaker 6: she changes cars. You know, people and then the beliefs
Speaker 6: I'm sure are watching her. So you know, some people
Speaker 6: couldn't stand that kind of constant examination. For some reason,
Speaker 6: Terry Horman's able to stand up to that and ignore it. Basically,
Speaker 6: she you know, ignores it. She does not issue statements
Speaker 6: at all, not not since I don't think since maybe
Speaker 6: twenty sixteen, uh when she was on Doctor phil and
Speaker 6: uh for two hours and basically you know, stuck to
Speaker 6: her story.
Speaker 7: There is a lot of just like you said, you
Speaker 7: became obsessed with this case in me imediately after that,
Speaker 7: and so many people online and you just touched on that.
Speaker 7: But you do mention some people and provide their websites.
Speaker 7: Maybe you can tell us a couple of people, including
Speaker 7: web sluts, that you just offer up as really good
Speaker 7: sources of people that we're looking into this case and
Speaker 7: look into all kinds of other unsolved cases.
Speaker 6: Well, I think I think those kinds of citizen bloggers
Speaker 6: are important. That doesn't mean I think they're going to
Speaker 6: find anything or solve anything, but as far as keeping
Speaker 6: the word out there. And on the other hand, you know,
Speaker 6: there are examples in the book of when you know
Speaker 6: when it goes too far, or you know when.
Speaker 4: You know.
Speaker 6: I've worked, I've written books about other missing people and
Speaker 6: families who wanted to know what psychics have to say,
Speaker 6: and I think people speculating. I'm not sure what that
Speaker 6: adds or how it helps. Kiren you know how it
Speaker 6: helps define Kiren. I think I think it's good to
Speaker 6: keep the interest if it helps keep the interest on
Speaker 6: Kirn and keeps pressure on Terry. But I don't think speculation.
Speaker 6: I've never seen it lead to some kind of breakthrough.
Speaker 6: I have it maybe.
Speaker 7: Other people have right now with this as well. Desiree,
Speaker 7: inadvertently or as a result of this, becomes an advocate
Speaker 7: for change and does a lot of public speaking, where
Speaker 7: she originally was a pretty shy person, and so she
Speaker 7: has changed and become a real fighter. In this tell
Speaker 7: us a little bit more about some of the advocacy
Speaker 7: and some of the outreach that she does, some of
Speaker 7: the things public speaking that she does.
Speaker 6: I never met the shy as Rae Young because by
Speaker 6: the time I met her in two thousand seventeen, I
Speaker 6: I wrote to her uh expressing interest in in writing
Speaker 6: uh her story in in Kyroen's Story in the The
Speaker 6: Story of the Search. But according to Tony, her husband,
Speaker 6: you know, she's she and she describes herself as you know,
Speaker 6: a very shy, timid person. But she she's really found
Speaker 6: her voice and I just really uh admire how she's
Speaker 6: taken her own experience and uh reached out to others
Speaker 6: and reached out to help others. She's spoken to uh
Speaker 6: amber conventions, uh Amber Alert conventions. Of course, an Amber
Speaker 6: alert wasn't pertinent to Karen because you have to have
Speaker 6: a car and a license plate and and all of that,
Speaker 6: and that wasn't the case here. But she speaks to
Speaker 6: Amberler conventions. She speaks to the training of police departments
Speaker 6: called kart training, and a training of police departments and
Speaker 6: sheriff's departments so that they will be prepared in a
Speaker 6: missing child case. And there's still a lot of places
Speaker 6: around the country that wouldn't know what to do, but
Speaker 6: what Loma County had had this training, so they knew.
Speaker 6: You know, you keep the family in the house, you
Speaker 6: designate a police spokesperson. You know, you don't have the
Speaker 6: family making police right off the bat, and you you know,
Speaker 6: you get their cell phones, you get their computers. You
Speaker 6: you know, just what has to be done very quickly,
Speaker 6: because remember they lost you know, six hours and some
Speaker 6: talking heads, because when the police weren't talking to the media,
Speaker 6: the media would go to talking heads, you know, like
Speaker 6: retired cops or other people who would somebody said, well,
Speaker 6: they really lost twelve hours that day. Now I'm not yeah,
Speaker 6: I'm not sure how they lost twelve hours, but but
Speaker 6: you know, they are all kinds of uh people that
Speaker 6: say things, so cart training is very important and desiree
Speaker 6: when other uh you know, municipality UMI, municipalities in Oregon
Speaker 6: uh are having police training. She'll go and talk and
Speaker 6: obviously she's speaking as a parent, you know, and she
Speaker 6: talks about what Monoma County did, write what they did
Speaker 6: right that she thinks really made a difference, even though
Speaker 6: they didn't find carent yet. But you know, and course
Speaker 6: she's the wife of a retired cop and she's she's
Speaker 6: pro police. But but she also then you know, organizes
Speaker 6: her own searches and she'll uh, you know, she's candid
Speaker 6: with the police, and she'll ask them, you know, she
Speaker 6: asks them a lot of questions. She stays in touch.
Speaker 6: Uh but uh, she you know, is out there. And uh.
Speaker 6: One thing she did is, uh there's a a group
Speaker 6: of volunteers who were parents who've been parent her are
Speaker 6: parents of missing children or at one time missing children,
Speaker 6: and she did some work with them and then it
Speaker 6: just you know, it was kind of too soon and
Speaker 6: too close, and she i think had a little trouble
Speaker 6: separating herself from you know, y, She's supposed to be
Speaker 6: anonymous with the parents that she's reaching out to, and
Speaker 6: that worked for a while and then I and then
Speaker 6: it didn't work so well. But she speaks selling National
Speaker 6: Missing Children Day, uh Children's Day and Oregon's Missing Children's
Speaker 6: Day and and uh, you know, all of it is
Speaker 6: about wanting to bring Kyron home. Yeah, so she did
Speaker 6: stop speaking to Kyen's father, Kine after several months when
Speaker 6: she realized that and came to feel when she found
Speaker 6: out more about h their troubled marriage and Terry drinking
Speaker 6: and passing out and Terry manipulating Kyn, she realized that
Speaker 6: she really came to believe that Kyen had been at
Speaker 6: risk and his father should have known that that boy
Speaker 6: was at risk, that the the stepmother posed a risk.
Speaker 6: And so they they don't work opposite each other. They
Speaker 6: but they don't do events together anymore. And Kane does
Speaker 6: his things and uh does Ray does hers.
Speaker 7: When we talk about the science fare that uh Kiren
Speaker 7: was so pumped about with his tree frog exhibit, and
Speaker 7: so what did they do from this diorama? And tell
Speaker 7: us what changes have been made at the Skyline Elementary
Speaker 7: as a result.
Speaker 6: Mm. Yeah, well, somebody worked with PTA at the school
Speaker 6: got cameras donated that that summer, so that by the
Speaker 6: time uh school opened in the fall, there were some cameras.
Speaker 6: The they began a system of and I I've been
Speaker 6: to the school. You don't I don't think you get
Speaker 6: a name card, but you have to check in on
Speaker 6: a computer that you're visiting the school. So there's some
Speaker 6: there's some new you know, some new routine there. And
Speaker 6: I believe the doors are locked during the day or
Speaker 6: all but the front door, which wasn't the case, and
Speaker 6: then uh, there's not you know, there have been some
Speaker 6: some talk about more security and the school district has
Speaker 6: said it just doesn't have the the money necessarily. But
Speaker 6: you know, a real uh, a newer, were old school,
Speaker 6: a big, you know, a big rural news school would
Speaker 6: have more security than this rural rural school. And then
Speaker 6: some older schools in this in the city in Portland
Speaker 6: would don't necessarily have up to date security. So it's
Speaker 6: still something that's something that and that desiree feels strongly
Speaker 6: about that. If there had been you know, cameras in
Speaker 6: twenty ten or some kind of system. Maybe he wouldn't
Speaker 6: have walked out with his stepmother.
Speaker 7: Well that's one person commenting on this case said that
Speaker 7: approaching this like it's a missing person's case for two
Speaker 7: longs can be dangerous. Yeah.
Speaker 6: Well, and that maybe they should have very quickly, that
Speaker 6: that first evening decided much quicker than they did. But
Speaker 6: this is not The boy did not wander off, you know,
Speaker 6: he didn't go out and looking for a frog to
Speaker 6: bring back his exhibit. Cyn was not Kiren was trying
Speaker 6: timid like his mother. He wouldn't have done that, and
Speaker 6: that for too many hours, and maybe that's where the
Speaker 6: twelve hours comes in. But for the first certainly the
Speaker 6: first several days, they thought he'd been abducted or wandered away,
Speaker 6: and then very quickly settled on you know, it was
Speaker 6: probably a family member.
Speaker 7: Yeah, yeah, I think if they would have had the
Speaker 7: cameras and it would have approached us a little bit
Speaker 7: differently than they would have been looking at her more
Speaker 7: seriously than this incredible search. Later they had the searches
Speaker 7: near like you mentioned, saw the island where the phone pings.
Speaker 7: But again, why what did they do this exhaustive search
Speaker 7: before they found out about where her telephone put her in,
Speaker 7: where she was in what area. So it's a lot
Speaker 7: to be learned from this case.
Speaker 6: I think, Yeah, it's just you know, terribly sad. I mean,
Speaker 6: there wasn't you know, n nobody except t you know,
Speaker 6: Karen's father thinks that that he's uh, at least least
Speaker 6: Kane says he still believes Kyroen is alive and somewhere.
Speaker 6: But uh, I I don't think any of the detectives
Speaker 6: believe that, and Desiree doesn't and and you know, but
Speaker 6: but what could you do with a boy in in
Speaker 6: two and a half hours. They think maybe she was
Speaker 6: scouting locations the week before when she was driving her
Speaker 6: own sports car instead of there as a pick up,
Speaker 6: and maybe she did some scouting. Uh. Desiree also says
Speaker 6: that there's some things missing from Kane's house and that
Speaker 6: when Kyen is found, it'll l help tell them that
Speaker 6: she was responsible. But you know what, where where is he?
Speaker 6: And we're talking about you know, a h We're not
Speaker 6: talking about you know, Utah I, Nevada, where Susan Coxpowell
Speaker 6: is missing somewhere where they're just you know, ten thousand
Speaker 6: abandoned minds. We're talking about you know, uh an area
Speaker 6: of northwest Portland.
Speaker 7: Yeah, but twenty thou six thousand acres.
Speaker 6: Yeah yeah. What I what I really uh like frankly
Speaker 6: about the about the book, besides telling their stories, is
Speaker 6: at the end of the book, I have everybody who's
Speaker 6: character in the book, you know, all twenty people or whatever,
Speaker 6: in their own words, say what they think happened, you know,
Speaker 6: including s Desrae and her husband and their other detective
Speaker 6: friends and the women that run the Facebook pages and
Speaker 6: the the PTA president and you know, what what happened
Speaker 6: and and who is responsible. And some think she's you know,
Speaker 6: somewhere in the Martian, that he's somewhere in a Martian
Speaker 6: Sauve Island something. They that she buried him, and I
Speaker 6: don't know. I I'll just as an aside, I don't
Speaker 6: think I've been dreaming about this for the three years
Speaker 6: I've been working on it, but I had a dream
Speaker 6: two nights ago about maybe I'm buried in sand. For
Speaker 6: the first time, I dreamt, Well, maybe he's in sand
Speaker 6: and there's a tide or something so it'll never be
Speaker 6: found because of the sand coming in and out or.
Speaker 7: Interesting, Okay, as good a guess as anyone I think
Speaker 7: at this point.
Speaker 6: Yeah, but I worked on this book with a picture
Speaker 6: of Kylin and and Desiree, the two of them, you know,
Speaker 6: buy my computer for three years just so I could
Speaker 6: look at them all the time.
Speaker 7: Yeah, well you've really brought this case to life. I mean,
Speaker 7: bad pun I would imagine, but uh, incredible story and
Speaker 7: again still an open investigation, and Desiree and others are hoping,
Speaker 7: hoping that someday there can be more information to find
Speaker 7: out the entire truth. They believe they know who did it,
Speaker 7: but they need more answers. I want to thank you
Speaker 7: very much for a coming.
Speaker 6: I'm sorry, I was just gonna say, please need a
Speaker 6: confession or a body.
Speaker 7: Yeah, yeah, definitely. Well we'll hope for something to happen someday. You, Dan,
Speaker 7: I want to thank you. I want to thank you
Speaker 7: very much for coming on and talking about boy missing.
Speaker 7: It's been fascinating the search for Kiren Horman. Is there
Speaker 7: a website that people might take a look at? Do
Speaker 7: you have personal website? Facebook page?
Speaker 4: Sure?
Speaker 6: I do, it's Rebecca Morris TB. I'm sorry, my website
Speaker 6: is Rebecca T. Morris middle initial T and the book
Speaker 6: is available on Amazon, Powell's Bruns and Noble ebook and paperback,
Speaker 6: and the audiobook will be out in July.
Speaker 7: Sounds fantastic. Thank you so much, Rebecca Morris boy Missing
Speaker 7: search for Kiren Horman. It's been fascinating. Thank you and
Speaker 7: have a great evening. Good nights.