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Speaker 1: Arrow dot net. It's a network of podcasts, twenty different

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podcasts to listen to a r r oe dot net.

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One of those podcasts is c t CUS, a very

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popular show about a group of people who happen to

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work at a grocery store. This is how it really

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goes down ct CS. The customer is never right. Ero

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dot net a r r oe dot net. Enjoy your exploration,

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mister Nat. How are you doing today, Sarah?

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Speaker 2: Just fine? Thank you. You could probably see that Louie

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the Wonderdog is crashing out on the couch behind me,

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so he'll audit the interview and if anything happens we

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don't like, he'll he'll bite you.

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Speaker 1: Oh my god, that's exactly the way Jazzy is in

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this room. She'll sit there and go well and a'll

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tronggo what was wrong with that question? I swear to

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god you were with me when I came up with it.

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Speaker 2: Dude in producing Tom Kleggett, my good friend of many months,

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because we didn't know we were working on the same

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bok at the same time in different books, and they

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came in anyway, He'll explain it to you, Tom Arrow,

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Really nice to meet you.

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Speaker 1: Oh dude, it's a pleasure to meet you, and it's

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always fun to keep these these connections together in the

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way that you know, It's like as we grow forward

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with Hollywood movies and TV shows these days, it's like

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we were forgetting a past. But when we've got people

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like yourself, you and Nat, it's like, Okay, now we

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have an anchor to grow from.

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Speaker 3: Okay, sounds good. Thank you.

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Speaker 1: How did you guys even know that you were working

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on the same project, because what are the chances of

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something like that? Or does it prove that we're not

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the original one?

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Speaker 4: We weren't aware of each other initially. It was decades

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later that we even met. But Billy freaking just coincidentally

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allowed both of us to work on our books. But

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they were different in that Nats was about Billy himself

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and mine was about Billy's films.

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Speaker 1: Oh God, that's a good marriage right there, because you

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know it is.

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Speaker 2: And and Billy was so subtle that he had each

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of his working on a book and the other didn't

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know it, and he was so discreet he didn't bother

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telling us. Fortunately, we had two publishers who didn't know either.

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We'd be handing out copies on mimiograph.

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Speaker 1: Oh my god, the two of you could be putting

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a book together about just this one project. I mean,

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this looks like something that would be like Faces Off,

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which is up there. You know, we see that on

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local stages all the time. You know what it's really

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like to be a part of that side of the business.

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Speaker 2: I don't think people are really curious about what writers do.

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Everybody's had to write term papers, and I don't think

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they want to relive that good point.

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Speaker 1: Oh my god, you say that, and I look down

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at my writing hand because I use a nib and

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it's just bathed in black ink. I'm going you're right.

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I don't think there's anybody else that would honor the

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black ink on their finger tips.

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Speaker 2: I don't even think anybody writes cursive anymore.

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Speaker 1: But do you find yourself the two of you just

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sitting there. It doesn't matter what a phase of fame

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you're in. You sit there and watch them write to

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find out if they're gonna use cursive or they're gonna

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go the simple way out.

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Speaker 2: I don't know, do do social media to do? Do

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smartphones have cursive on them? Because that's what people do

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with their thumbs right. You know, how do you write?

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What do you write on?

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Speaker 1: If I'm going to share a thought, it starts inside

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a notebook first, and then I'll then I'll try to

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perfect it in the notebook, and then I'll take it up,

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and then somebody takes me on and I'm going to

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take it down. Take it down. That's enough. I don't

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need to be you know, you know, I don't need

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any haters on me or anything like that. But yeah,

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I'm somebody who's got to see it. And I think

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it's a radio thing mat because I mean they always

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told us day one of radio, put it on the

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page and practice it, and practice it before you even

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put it over a thirteen second song intro. So I

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just got used to doing that.

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Speaker 2: Wow. Wow, I can't imagine writing every talk up.

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Speaker 1: But go for it everything everything. Yeah, yeah, well what

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it does? I think it creates a sense of confidence.

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But at the same time, you've got someone like Dan Valley,

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who's a radio consultant, that will sit there and say, well,

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that's the reason why you stop in the middle of

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your conversations, because you trained yourself to stop by writing.

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I'm going oh yeah, I.

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Speaker 2: Wondered Tom do you think Billy ever sat down at

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a typewriter and wrote out every script? I know he

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wrote a couple of scripts, like he adapted the Last

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or he adapted the King Newtony Court Martial. But Billy

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didn't really consider himself a writer, did he?

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Speaker 4: No?

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Speaker 3: I don't think so.

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Speaker 4: I believe I heard that he used that he wrote

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it out initially in Longhand, and which would be, you know,

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remarkable in and of itself, given you know things today.

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But I think he may have decided that writing scripts

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himself was the way to go because.

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Speaker 3: It became for him, for some.

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Speaker 4: Topics something where it just had to come directly from

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his mind onto the page. And I do believe the

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first script he wrote himself was Cruising. He had contributed

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to previous scripts, of course, but did not take a

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writing credit. The French Connection, for example. You know, so

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much of that was ad libbed based on conversations that

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Freakin and the actors Hackman and Scheider had with the

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cops who were there as both technical advisors as well

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as the cops who actually worked on the original French

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Connection case.

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Speaker 1: So the two of you, how do you even research

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that if they're using improv and ad lib. I mean,

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how do you go in to get that experience, you know,

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to with us that are catching it on your pages.

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Speaker 2: But in my case, I was fortunate to have been

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able to meet both Eddie Egan and Sonny Grosso. Eddie

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passed some years ago, but I worked with Sonny on

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a television special for HBO, and so I got to

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know him fairly well. And he was not Roy Scheider,

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and Roy Scheider was not Sonny Grosso. But I can

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see how Sonny was the guy who would wrangle Eddie,

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who was not a nice person, and keep him in

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tow for the for the movie. But that's the kind

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of energy between the two of them that Billy was

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able to tap and recreate with Gene Hackman, who was

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one of the sweethearts and one of the least violent

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people of all time, and yet he was able to

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act as violently as he had to. This is what

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Billy was able to do. He was able to wrangle people,

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He was able to make them do what he wanted

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them to do. Because a great director, write this down, everybody.

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A great director sets the scene so that the actors

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can behave like the characters they're playing. And that's what

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Billy managed to do both with The French Connection, The Exorcist, Sorcerer,

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to Live In, Die In La Everything. Actors were not themselves,

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they were their characters when William Freakin directed them.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, but Matt, you know what though, when we're giving

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that kind of legal freedom to be able to explore

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a character like that, there's always that sense of fear

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inside each and every one of us because we're afraid

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that we're either going too far or it's not far enough.

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Oh my god, we may have to do this over

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and over again. So that that always brings fear to

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me when when someone says, this is what I need

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you to do. Oh really, I need a little bit

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more direction. Nope, in your hands, buddy, put your experience

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ahead of everything. And and so it kind of freaks

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out a bit.

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Speaker 2: Well, if you trust your director, you know you're not

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going to get made an ass of.

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Speaker 3: A freak. Can also put real fear into some people.

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Speaker 4: Yes, on the French Connection, one of his one of

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his technical advisors was Randy Jurgensen, who was also a

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police officer who worked on the French Connection case. And

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it's the scene where Gene Hackman shoots Frog two, who

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has just jumped off the subway train that he had

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hijacked and is running away up the steps of the

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station to get away from Hackman, and Hackman shoots him.

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Speaker 3: He shoots him in the back.

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Speaker 4: And Randy Jurgensen told me that he went to Freakin

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and he said, please.

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Speaker 3: You can't do that. I'm a New York I'm a

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New York cop. I can't. My friends are going to

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see this movie.

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Speaker 4: You have this police officer shooting a suspect in the back.

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Speaker 3: Please give him a gun.

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Speaker 4: Let there be a second gun that he has, Let

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him take a hostage, do something. And Freakin told him

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for several days, don't worry about it, don't worry about it.

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Speaker 3: Randy said, I begged him to redo the scene, do.

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Speaker 4: Something else, and Freaking kept telling him, don't worry about it.

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Then the picture comes out and the one sheet poster

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is the shot of Hackman shooting Frog two in the

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back with.

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Speaker 3: His hands up, and.

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Speaker 4: Randy said, he and Freakin went to the first show

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that night in New York City at seven o'clock and

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when that scene came up, the audience erupted in applause,

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and Freaking turned to him and said, what do you

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think now?

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Speaker 3: And Randy Randy said, that's when I.

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Speaker 4: Realized I was just a technical advisor.

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Speaker 3: Billy Freakin was a filmmaker.

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Speaker 1: Please do not move. We'll be back with Naton Thomas

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right after this. We're talking one of the things that

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you You've talking me into the research department because what

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I'm starting to get from William. And I call him

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William because I didn't know him enough to call him Billy.

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So therefore, but when I researched William, what happened was

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I felt like that he took from his imagination and

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made things happen on that camera immediately. So I did

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research on that. Is it possible to do exactly that,

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to be able to photocopy or do some sort of

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copy of what you're thinking and put it on the camera,

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And it said you can't do that, But yet William

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proved that you can do that.

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Speaker 2: He was a manipulator. He knew what people wanted, and

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he was able to convey to the crew, which is

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really the biggest job of a director to take what's

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in your mind and make the crew and the other

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people realize that on film. He was able to get

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it done miraculously most of the time. Some of the

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time it didn't quite work, but his reach exceeded his

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grasp in some occasions, but most of the time it

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really worked. It just its remarkable how he managed to

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do it. He could play the audience like the proverbial harp.

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Speaker 1: The two of you. How are you able to capture

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the emotion and get it to me? Because you're creating

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movies in my imagination? Is it possible that you're able

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to always call this the dear future reader moment? In

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other words, you experienced it, you went through the writing

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as well, and now you're passing it on to us.

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That's a dear future reader moment.

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Speaker 3: Just God given inate ability, but he does.

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Speaker 2: Samuel Goldwyn, the producer, was trying to belittle writers, and

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he said to Lillian Hellman, what is writing anyway? It's

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just putting one word after the other. And Lillian Hellman,

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who was an estimable writer, said, no, it's putting the

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right word after the right word, and not too many

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of them.

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Speaker 3: Good point. Billy also had.

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Speaker 4: This ability to literally see the movie he wanted to

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make in his head, how he wanted, how he wanted

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things set up, how he wanted shots done where he

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wanted the actors.

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Speaker 3: Place, et cetera, and.

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Speaker 4: At least probably at least halfway or better into his career.

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Speaker 3: That is how he made his movies.

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Speaker 4: He did not shoot a single frame until he actually

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had it in his head exactly what it was going

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to look like. Of course, he was also ready for

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any changes on set, because changes, you know, the unexpected,

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what happen on any film and likely does on every

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film at least somewhere along the line.

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Speaker 1: Now, Matt, the one thing that you kind of prove

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inside this book is that William was very much into

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what I call verbal taekwondo. He could use his words

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to move people, and he learned that art quite well.

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Speaker 2: He was an autodidact, which means that he learned everything

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on his own. He barely got through high school and

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then just used the College of life. And he enjoyed

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being with people. He enjoyed especially being with people whom

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you wouldn't want to be with. A lot of guys

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who you know, had reputations, shall we say not everybody

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in his family had been honest either, But he was

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a straight kid and he managed to use that knowledge

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of how to deal with people to if he wanted

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to tear your heart out just with a couple of words. Now,

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he never did with me, and I'm sure he never

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did with Tom. But there were some people that he

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could eviscerate, and it was always for a purpose, you know,

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it was always to get the movie. He was never

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needlessly cruel, although one assistant director told me that Billy's

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idea of a joke it was to reduce someone else

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to tears. I never saw that, but I know it

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did happen. He was somebody who got what he wanted

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for the good of the film.

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Speaker 1: Well yeah, but there was no guilt trip afterwards, because

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I mean, as a creative person, I'll say stuff, I'll

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do things. Big man, you don't want to hang out

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with me when it's all over, because now I'm going

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through a guilt trip.

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Speaker 2: Only a couple of times did I ever experience Billy

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having I wouldn't call it guilt, but i'd call it

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second thoughts. After Sorcerer came out, he wrote me a

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long letter from France, where he was living with his

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then wife, Jean Moreau. I let the audience take that in,

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and he was very depressed that the film had not

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done well at the box office, and he said, look,

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the grosses are lower than whale shit. He was always colorful,

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and he was very depressed that the film didn't do well,

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and of course it took forty years before it was accepted.

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Speaker 1: And he wrote none of this down in a journal

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or anything like that, because it seems like this man

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was just packed with quotes and he was filled with experience,

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and it's the kind of stuff that really is to me,

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would guide someone along to understand where it is that

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we're growing with a movie.

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Speaker 2: His twenty thirteen memoir The Friedkin Connection says most of it,

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but he says at the very beginning of it that

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anybody who's reading the book looking for a scandal is

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going to be disappointed. It is still one of the

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great memoirs of a director because it actually conveys the

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joy of making movies rather than the drudgery. And that

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was Billy. He was incessantly optimistic even when things weren't good.

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Speaker 1: Well, absolutely, now with you putting the focus on the

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movies right away, I mean, first of all, I depend

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on NAT's writing to keep me up to date with

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the older movies, because if I've not seen them. They're

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brand new to me. But I've got to ask you

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a question, Thomas, in the way of is that we

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know the name of the movie, but for some reason

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we're forgetting the makers of the movie, and we need

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books like this that knock us upside the head saying,

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pay attention, someone made this movie. It didn't just happen.

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Speaker 4: Well, I'm glad that both Nate and I were here

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to fill in those blanks. It's because for me, it's

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because I love movies. I know it's a cliche, but

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I've loved movies ever since I can remember, and freaking

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Freakin's films had such an impact on me, particularly French Connection,

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The Exorcist and Sorcerer. They were the reason that I

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wanted to write my book from the get go. Ironically,

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with the financial and critical failure of Sorcerer, initially it

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became very curious. I became very curious about what will

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he do next? And though he never achieved the kind

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of success that he had early on, he continued to

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make films and they were always interesting. Even the failures

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were interesting to see because of who he was, and

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he made movies because he said, I'm interested in this topic.

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Speaker 3: There is a saying in Hollywood.

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Speaker 4: Not all films work, and there are also the films

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that do work. And Billy was one of those filmmakers

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who had both the pinnacle of success and the valley

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of defeat. And yet he continued to make movies. And

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thankfully that was the case. He didn't retire, he didn't

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go away. He was making movies right up until the

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very end really of his life. And a lot of

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those movies are going to continue to be touchstones.

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Speaker 3: For movie audiences, whether they're watching them at home or

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in theaters.

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Speaker 1: See, this is the type of book you two, that

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I like to put in front of future broadcasting students.

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When I'm in there in that class and it's filled

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with a bunch of dreamers who think they're stars already,

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I'll drop this book in front of them and say,

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I need you to go through a couple of these chapters,

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and I need you to find something that you think

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you are and let's talk about it. And all of

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a sudden, you create conversation in the way of if

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we don't get this modern day generation of these TikTok

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video people doing something seriously, then they're going to miss

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the boat because it's all there. The lessons are put there,

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and you guys are making those tools.

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Speaker 2: Well, thank you for bumby half both of us. You know,

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Tom's book deals primarily with the films and my book

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deals primarily with the filmmaker. I think if you shuffle

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the pages together, you have a pretty good portrait not

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only of Billy Freakin, but of what Hollywood and movie

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making was like for the last fifty years and has

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changed greatly, and Billy was one of the reasons that

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it went one direction or another. I think there's a

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certain amount of nostalgia but also a certain amount of

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accomplishment because it look what he did that nobody could

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ever do again.

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Speaker 1: So now the two of you, in the research that

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you've done on William Freakin in the way, was he

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ever aware of the time limit on movies? Because it

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seems like today we're getting shorter and shorter and shorter,

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and it's like going, I don't want this to feel

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like a binge watch man, I need two hours plus.

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Did he think about the time limit?

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Speaker 4: I know he is to say, And other people that

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I interviewed, like William Peter Bladdie, for example, who wrote

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and produced the Exorcist. Billy's touchstone was two hours. We

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got to keep it less than two hours, otherwise people

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are going to start shifting around in their seats and

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get uncomfortable. I don't think he made a film that

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was much over two hours. Some of them were, you know,

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could be closer to ninety five or one hundred minutes.

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But he just felt that that was an ideal, a

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pretty ideal storytelling time for a movie.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I think they're the limits. The limits are the

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human bladder. Frankly, it's true of because nowadays people watch

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movies on something the size of a business card so

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they can take it in with them to the hooper.

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But they can, you know, but movies can be any length,

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and having watched the films in Terrence Malick, I can

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assure you that they are. But Billy like to keep

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it short and sweet. Wow.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, because those movie breaks like that are something I

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actually get paid money to do. To go into a

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theater and watch people watch a movie, and I am

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to take notes on when people get up to go

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to the bathroom, and usually it's the same kind of scene.

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If it looks like it's gonna lighten up a bit,

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I gotta go. I'm not gonna be gone long, but

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I gotta go. And I'm wondering if these movie directors

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understand if you don't give them a break right now

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at one twenty one, they're gonna go and they're gonna

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miss out on a valuable part of this story.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, then you watch The Godfather, which is two minutes

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short of three hours, and you don't want to move

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from your seat, right It really depends on totally on

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the filmmaker, totally on whether the film is any good.

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People don't leave good films.

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Speaker 1: Oh God, I love your attitude. I love your attitude.

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All right, Where can people go to find out more

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about the two of you? Because twenty minutes is never enough?

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Now you know that about me, it's never enough.

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Speaker 2: We're both online and you can buy our books at

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the regular places. Tom Claggett is William Friedkin films of Aberration,

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00:20:48,279 --> 00:20:52,359
Obsession and Reality Minus Hurricane Billy that both reprinted now

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in spanking new editions, and you can find them all

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over on Everything and everybody.

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Speaker 1: Well, please come back to this show anytime in the future.

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The door is always going to be open for you too.

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Speaker 2: Thank you, Thanks Eryl, Keep up the good work yourself,