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<v Speaker 1>This is a clip from Beyond Truth.

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<v Speaker 2>You can access the entire episode now on our website

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<v Speaker 2>and all podcast platforms.

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<v Speaker 1>But there's other.

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<v Speaker 2>Things going on as well. I'm sure you've heard of

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<v Speaker 2>Joe Fel says that's sort of the most recent fellow

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<v Speaker 2>that has perished, I guess after showing us a whole

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<v Speaker 2>pile of books. So I never knew who this guy was,

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<v Speaker 2>so I'm not here to advocate for him. I have

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<v Speaker 2>no idea who he is, what he's all about. The

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<v Speaker 2>only thing I'm bringing up about him tonight and some

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<v Speaker 2>of the other people as well, because I don't know

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<v Speaker 2>these people either, is just the fact about the books.

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<v Speaker 1>That's the only thing that I'm looking into.

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<v Speaker 2>Because I've seen some controversial stuff out there now, everybody's

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<v Speaker 2>slagging him or you know, their sy oups going on.

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<v Speaker 2>There's so much going on out.

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<v Speaker 1>There, you don't know what to believe.

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<v Speaker 2>And I never met this guy before and never seen him,

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<v Speaker 2>so I don't have any opinions about him whatsoever. And

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<v Speaker 2>I don't really care what else he was into, you

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<v Speaker 2>know what I mean. We're just going to talk about

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<v Speaker 2>the books tonight. That's the main thing. So for those

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<v Speaker 2>of you who are like, oh well, I'm not going

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<v Speaker 2>to watch yeah, just to sim it down, okay, because

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<v Speaker 2>we're just gonna be talking about the books tonight. So

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<v Speaker 2>all right. So for thousands of years, controlling information meant

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<v Speaker 2>controlling books, because that's kind of how we've had our

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<v Speaker 2>information up to today. I know it's a little different now,

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<v Speaker 2>but books have been burnt by government, religion, and conquering armies.

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<v Speaker 2>Libraries have been destroyed. I'm sure you all heard about

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<v Speaker 2>the Library of Alexandria. That's sort of the most famous one.

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<v Speaker 2>I think about the book burning and whatever they didn't

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<v Speaker 2>destroy there I do believe will be under the Vatican libraries.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm sure they probably have lots of material there, but

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<v Speaker 2>it's not for you and I to read those. So,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, so a lot of libraries have been destroyed

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<v Speaker 2>over years. You know, if you go and look back

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<v Speaker 2>at the history, manuscripts have disappeared into private collection. Other

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<v Speaker 2>books simply vanish because nobody thought they were important enough

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<v Speaker 2>to preserve. Today, the battle of knowledge looks very different.

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<v Speaker 2>Millions of books can be scanned into computers, which I

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<v Speaker 2>guess in itself is a good thing because a lot

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<v Speaker 2>of people prefer to read on the e reader, now

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<v Speaker 2>you know what I mean, rather than having, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>having to store all the books. And I get that,

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<v Speaker 2>you know what I mean, It is a lot more

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<v Speaker 2>convenient just have it on your computer. Run to have

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<v Speaker 2>to store them all and we can't. Everybody can't have

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<v Speaker 2>a copy of everything. So I get that part of it,

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<v Speaker 2>you know. I think we should have both. I think

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<v Speaker 2>we should be in the balance here, you know. And

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<v Speaker 2>so that's what we need to try and find. It's

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<v Speaker 2>a balance in this, right, you know, how far do

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<v Speaker 2>we go here? Now? Other books simply vanished.

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<v Speaker 1>Because nobody thought they were right.

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<v Speaker 2>I said that today the battle over knowledge looks very different.

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<v Speaker 2>Millions of books can be scanned into computers. Entire libraries

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<v Speaker 2>can exist without a physical building. A read book can

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<v Speaker 2>once require traveling across the world, can potentially be read

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<v Speaker 2>from a phone. But that has created a new question now, right,

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<v Speaker 2>So who owns human knowledge once everything becomes digital? That's

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<v Speaker 2>the big question here?

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<v Speaker 1>Right?

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<v Speaker 2>So recently court record revealed as secretive an entropy program

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<v Speaker 2>called Project Panama. So there you go, Project Panama, Project

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<v Speaker 2>anchor what was that one? It must have been a

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<v Speaker 2>different one that I was talking about.

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<v Speaker 1>The other day, because that's.

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<v Speaker 2>It may have been with Olsen that we were talking

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<v Speaker 2>about that. Yeah, there's so many projects going on, and

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<v Speaker 2>we do so many shows here that it's hard to

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<v Speaker 2>keep track of all the different projects. But different this

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<v Speaker 2>one is Panama.

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<v Speaker 1>Okay.

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<v Speaker 2>So the company purchased enormous quantities of physical books. The

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<v Speaker 2>bindings were removed, the pages were scanned at industrial speed.

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<v Speaker 2>The physical books were then sent for recycling, as in,

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<v Speaker 2>they destroyed them after okay. So the purpose was to

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<v Speaker 2>feed high quality written information in to artificial intelligence systems.

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<v Speaker 2>At almost at the same time, independent people have been

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<v Speaker 2>doing nearly the opposite the search for forgotten books. They

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<v Speaker 2>buy them with their own money, they scan them, and

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<v Speaker 2>then they give them back to the public for free.

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<v Speaker 2>So that's what Joe was doing, right, And this is

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<v Speaker 2>why it seems so odd that he's no longer with us.

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<v Speaker 2>So we're gonna get into him specifically in a minute here.

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<v Speaker 1>But so that was Joe Fels, that's right.

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<v Speaker 2>So he it just passed away last week, I believe,

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<v Speaker 2>at forty years old. And from the little bit that

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<v Speaker 2>I know about him, from what I've seen just from

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<v Speaker 2>snippets here and there, he always would mention that he

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<v Speaker 2>would never hurt himself. You know what, I'm saying, that

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<v Speaker 2>he's healthy, there's nothing going on, and that he would

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<v Speaker 2>never do that, and if he did mysteriously disappear for

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<v Speaker 2>whatever reason, that it would be the government's fault. He

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<v Speaker 2>kept saying that in pretty much every single video that

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<v Speaker 2>I've seen of him, and then all of a sudden,

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<v Speaker 2>he's gone. Now how he went? You know, who did it?

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<v Speaker 2>That's all speculation. It just seems to suss to me

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<v Speaker 2>that he did it himself. I don't think he did,

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<v Speaker 2>but all the other stuff, you know, who knows, you know.

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<v Speaker 1>So anyway, so he.

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<v Speaker 2>Was preserving library remains online. So he actually has a

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<v Speaker 2>website that I do believe is still alive.

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<v Speaker 1>It's a live website.

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<v Speaker 2>You can go on there now, and he has already

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<v Speaker 2>I believe, scanned some books and whatnot, and they're still there. However,

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<v Speaker 2>from what I've seen, again, I only know a little

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<v Speaker 2>snippets because I wasn't following the guy. A lot of

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<v Speaker 2>people are saying that they're going into his YouTube trying

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<v Speaker 2>to find some of the old videos and they're being

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<v Speaker 2>scrubbed out. So you could ask, like, what the heck

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<v Speaker 2>is going on. Apparently his girlfriend has taken over his accounts,

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<v Speaker 2>posting all kinds of stuff. Again, I don't know her,

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<v Speaker 2>I don't know what they we're up to. I don't

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<v Speaker 2>know what's going on exactly, but she has access to

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<v Speaker 2>the account. And now all of a sudden, a lot

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<v Speaker 2>of the videos about the old books are disappearing. They're

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<v Speaker 2>just vanishing. They've just been taken down. So make up

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<v Speaker 2>your own conclusions there as to who's doing it.

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<v Speaker 1>And why, right, you know what I mean?

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<v Speaker 2>So, yeah, so tonight we're gonna be looking at Joe. Okay,

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<v Speaker 2>that's one of the guys. Another one is Aaron Schwartz,

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<v Speaker 2>Richard Green, Project Gutenberg, Occult Archives and Internet Archives and

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<v Speaker 2>Project Panama. Those are the things that we're gonna take

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<v Speaker 2>a little looksie at tonight here. So now we're not

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<v Speaker 2>claiming for liability reasons. Okay, we have to say this.

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<v Speaker 2>We're not claiming at these depths we're connected. However, it

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<v Speaker 2>does seem like ore, But we are asking some questions here.

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<v Speaker 2>So what happens when knowledge becomes vas valuable enough that corporations, governments, publishers, collectors,

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<v Speaker 2>and ordinary people all fight over who gets access to it.

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<v Speaker 1>What do you think of that, Robert?

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<v Speaker 3>I think you know, there's more to this story than

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<v Speaker 3>you think. That's what I think there is. There's it

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<v Speaker 3>goes way deeper. That's That's what I'm getting at.

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<v Speaker 1>It always does, doesn't that. You know, they just seem to.

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<v Speaker 2>Keep going and going and going.

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<v Speaker 3>Well, first off, I mean, uh, a thousand years ago,

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<v Speaker 3>people people kept all the books in one big library, Alexander,

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<v Speaker 3>you know that there wasn't many books. Now, Uh, you

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<v Speaker 3>know we have libraries everywhere. But do kids still go

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<v Speaker 3>and read the books?

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<v Speaker 1>Do they read the books?

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<v Speaker 3>When was the last Nina, When was the last time

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<v Speaker 3>you went to the library.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, you know, I'm old school, so I actually do

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<v Speaker 2>go to the library once in a while, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>even to get you can get photocopies, right, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>instead of paying the big money for ink and whatever else,

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<v Speaker 2>going the library and do it there. But I'm old school,

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<v Speaker 2>and you're right, the young people probably don't even know

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<v Speaker 2>what a library is.

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<v Speaker 1>Okay, Well I got some more questions.

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<v Speaker 3>Just don't run away with the train here.

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<v Speaker 1>But you went to the library. When last time you

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<v Speaker 1>went to the library.

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<v Speaker 3>There's I'm getting someone going. I'm like I'm like a

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<v Speaker 3>lawyer in a courtroom, you know, I'm asking the questions

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<v Speaker 3>through the jury.

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<v Speaker 2>Here.

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<v Speaker 3>Okay, you went to you went to the library, right,

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<v Speaker 3>and you went to what made some folker to copies

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<v Speaker 3>or whatever?

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<v Speaker 1>You did you go to? Did you check out a book?

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<v Speaker 1>Did you check out a book?

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<v Speaker 2>No? I didn't, but you know.

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<v Speaker 3>Okay that that's what I wanted to when when you

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<v Speaker 3>were there, was there the place? Was the place packed

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<v Speaker 3>or was there a couple of people?

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<v Speaker 2>But there there still is a lot of people in there,

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<v Speaker 2>to be honest, Yeah, there still is. Yeah, a lot

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<v Speaker 2>of people like to hang out. You know. They have

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<v Speaker 2>a lot of programs up in the library for mom

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<v Speaker 2>and todts or kids. There'll be reading the time and

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<v Speaker 2>there's a lot of things going on. They're still keeping

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<v Speaker 2>it busy. But I know where you're getting at. And

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<v Speaker 2>the teenagers probably arms, you know you're gonna find them there.

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<v Speaker 2>But you'll find small children and you'll find older people

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<v Speaker 2>who just want to sit somewhere and read a book

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<v Speaker 2>and be quiet and the quietness, you know, so there

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<v Speaker 2>is still that and you know that is an option

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<v Speaker 2>people if you've forgotten there is free books and if

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<v Speaker 2>your book that you're looking for isn't available, All you

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<v Speaker 2>have to do is go to your local library and

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<v Speaker 2>they will request it and.

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<v Speaker 1>Have it brought to your library.

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<v Speaker 2>And if they don't have it in any other library,

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<v Speaker 2>they'll actually buy it and put it in there. So

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<v Speaker 2>if you're an author and you want your own book

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<v Speaker 2>in the library, that's all you have to do, and

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<v Speaker 2>they'll bring it in, you know what I mean. So

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<v Speaker 2>it's still alive and it's still there, and it's still free.

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<v Speaker 3>So that is and you can donate books to the

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<v Speaker 3>library too, and you.

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<v Speaker 2>Can we donate books as well. Like if you pass

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<v Speaker 2>away and you've got a huge library and you don't

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<v Speaker 2>know what, don't enter your local library for sure, you

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<v Speaker 2>know what I mean, Like, because our kids aren't gonna

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<v Speaker 2>take them. I know my kids are probably gonna throw

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<v Speaker 2>everything I have out unfortunately, So yeah, donate them to

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<v Speaker 2>some to a library that's you know, where people are

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<v Speaker 2>going to actually enjoy them, you know what I mean.

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<v Speaker 2>So you know, after this show, I'm pretty sure everybody's

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<v Speaker 2>gonna think, Yeah, better not get rid of the books, right,

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<v Speaker 2>you better keep on, you know, collecting those books. But yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>what's gonna happen to the physical books, you know, once

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<v Speaker 2>the corporation have all the digital copies right and they're

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<v Speaker 2>destroying the original copies, so you know. So but anyways,

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<v Speaker 2>before we jump ahead of ourselves here, if we're gonna

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<v Speaker 2>get right into the Project Panama here now, so what

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<v Speaker 2>actually happened?

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<v Speaker 1>So now the company.

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<v Speaker 2>Behind the Claude artificial intelligence.

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<v Speaker 1>System, so Claude. So that goes back to claw.

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<v Speaker 2>Book and Molte Book and we've done shows on that.

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<v Speaker 2>So if you haven't heard about those things, go and

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<v Speaker 2>binge watch those. I might put them at the end

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<v Speaker 2>of this show here so you can jump in there

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<v Speaker 2>after to see what that's all about. If this is

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<v Speaker 2>all new to you now. The court findings were revealed

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<v Speaker 2>that in twenty twenty four, on Tropic launched an internal

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<v Speaker 2>book acquisition operating operation known as Project Panama. Internal planning

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<v Speaker 2>material described an ambition to destructively scan books on an

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<v Speaker 2>enormous scale while keeping the project out of public attention.

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<v Speaker 2>This is why we're bringing this to your attention because

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<v Speaker 2>they're trying not to. Okay, So on Tropic purchased books

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<v Speaker 2>in huge quantities from used book suppliers, so they're going

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<v Speaker 2>around to all the used bookstores, okay, buying up all

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<v Speaker 2>the copies they can get. And I wouldn't be surprised

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<v Speaker 2>that that's also private collectors as well, maybe trying to

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<v Speaker 2>get those as well as on court records describe orders

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<v Speaker 2>involving tens of thousands of books at a time. The

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<v Speaker 2>scanning vendor proposed processing between five hundred thousand and two

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<v Speaker 2>million books in six months. Two million books in six months.

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<v Speaker 2>The total number eventually scanned was reduced in portions of

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<v Speaker 2>the court record although over Oh sorry, guys, we've got

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<v Speaker 2>a thunderstorm going on here. I don't know if you

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<v Speaker 2>guys can hear.

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<v Speaker 1>That, but it'll pass.

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<v Speaker 2>You don't worry about it. Oh boy um reported by

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<v Speaker 2>on those records described millions of physical books being acquired.

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<v Speaker 1>So how the books were processed.

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<v Speaker 2>Industrial equipment removed the spine. They literally cut the spine

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<v Speaker 2>right off. Once the bindings was cut away, the pages

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<v Speaker 2>could fit through the high scanning speed scanners. You know

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<v Speaker 2>what I mean. The page became digital data. After scanning.

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<v Speaker 2>The dismantled physical copies were scheduled for recycling. This is

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<v Speaker 2>called destructive scanning. It's not literally a book burning because

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<v Speaker 2>they don't have to burn anymore. Now they just recycle,

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<v Speaker 2>you know what I mean, just a different word for

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<v Speaker 2>the same thing, is what it is. But the physical

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<v Speaker 2>book does not survive the process. So it's the same

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<v Speaker 2>darn thing. Okay, it's still in the words, right. So

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<v Speaker 2>AI companies in the huge amount of written language. The

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<v Speaker 2>Internet contains an enormous quantity of texts, but much of

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<v Speaker 2>it is repetitive, poorly edited, and low quality. Internal AI

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<v Speaker 2>company communications revealed that books were considered especially valuable because

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<v Speaker 2>edited books contain structured arguments, professional writing, and information that

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<v Speaker 2>may never be appeared freely online. So that is so true.

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<v Speaker 2>It's you know, that's where all our information is in

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<v Speaker 2>these old books, anything prior to eighteen hundred, I would say,

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<v Speaker 2>don't get rid of that. Don't get rid of that,

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<v Speaker 2>like it's going to be worth a lot of money.

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<v Speaker 2>I would think in the future, if you're even allowed

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<v Speaker 2>to have it, might be a law saying, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>a lot to have it anymore. Wouldn't be surprised. But

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<v Speaker 2>we haven't quite gotten there yet. So now it's the

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<v Speaker 2>copyright controversy. So and Tropic was also accused of acquiring

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<v Speaker 2>millions of digital books to unauthorized online libraries. I didn't

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<v Speaker 2>know that.

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<v Speaker 1>There you go that. Sorry, that's not good.

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<v Speaker 2>Unauthorized, yeah, illegal, is it not? But you know, see,

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<v Speaker 2>this is why they don't want you knowing about this stuff,

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<v Speaker 2>right because they're getting in trouble. From the looks of

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<v Speaker 2>it here, somebody must have figured it out, but they

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<v Speaker 2>became legally separate from the physical book it purchased and scanned.

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<v Speaker 2>In twenty twenty five, a federal drudge found that using

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<v Speaker 2>books to train AI could qualify as transformative fair use,

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<v Speaker 2>but on Tropic still faces claims over the way it

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<v Speaker 2>acquired pirateate copies.