WEBVTT

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<v Speaker 1>The Team House with your host, Jack Murphy and David park.

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<v Speaker 2>Hello. This is episode three and seventy two of The

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<v Speaker 2>Team House. I'm Jack here with our guest tonight, who

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<v Speaker 2>is Worth Parker. Worth served in the Marine Corps as

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<v Speaker 2>a force recon and MARSAC officer. He is also the

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<v Speaker 2>author of the book Always Faithful, about the evacuation of

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<v Speaker 2>Allies from Kabol when Afghanistan collapsed, and he also runs

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<v Speaker 2>a few clinics for helping veterans with writing. So we're

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<v Speaker 2>going to talk about all kinds of different stuff here

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<v Speaker 2>today where thanks for joining us.

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<v Speaker 1>Tonight, Yeah, thank you for having me on and on Jack, And.

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<v Speaker 2>Then I should mention this is your second time on

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<v Speaker 2>the show. The first time was a different topic. It

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<v Speaker 2>was you and Mick and maybe there's one other guy.

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<v Speaker 1>Remember Mick was there.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, that we we did. So that was about the

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<v Speaker 2>Afghanistan evacuation. But now we'll get into this. You can

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<v Speaker 2>start off telling us a little bit about like your

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<v Speaker 2>origin story. You mentioned to me that you were an

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<v Speaker 2>Eagle scout, you come from a marine family.

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<v Speaker 1>Really, yeah, I mean it kind of in a happenstance,

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<v Speaker 1>I mean, not like in a bunch of career Marines

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<v Speaker 1>in the family. But yeah, I grew up in North Georgia,

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<v Speaker 1>primarily Athurs, Georgia, and the family has a pretty strong

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<v Speaker 1>service ethos really on both sides of the family. But

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<v Speaker 1>on my mom's side there were there's a senator and

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<v Speaker 1>two state governors, and then a host of Marine soldier, sailors,

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<v Speaker 1>air folk, et cetera. You know, my cousin cousins Buddy

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<v Speaker 1>and Joe were company commanders at Pork Chop Hill in

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<v Speaker 1>nineteen fifty three, and Joe got the Distinguished Service Cross,

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<v Speaker 1>Buddy got the Silver Star. Then Buddy got shot in

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<v Speaker 1>the head in Vietnam right before the lz X ray

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<v Speaker 1>thing with the air cap and how Moore's crowd, So

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<v Speaker 1>you know, I was admired those folks. My dad was

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<v Speaker 1>a Marine officer, just did his three years and got out.

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<v Speaker 1>My grandfather, against the wishes of his own dad was

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<v Speaker 1>a Marine machine gunner, dropped out of college, enlisted and

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<v Speaker 1>ended up getting shot at Sugarloaf Hill in nineteen forty four,

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<v Speaker 1>came home and then he was a judge, and I

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<v Speaker 1>kind of went on into the law, which is what

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<v Speaker 1>a lot of folks on my mom's side of the

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<v Speaker 1>family did.

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<v Speaker 3>But anyway, that that inspired me.

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<v Speaker 1>That plus having a scout master who was a Special

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<v Speaker 1>Forces NCO and who really spent a fair bit of

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<v Speaker 1>time with me and took me just like the old

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<v Speaker 1>Special Apps Association conventions when they'd have those in Atlanta,

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<v Speaker 1>and so I get to go meet all these old cats,

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<v Speaker 1>and I really came to ideolize. And I was a

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<v Speaker 1>you know, was an AMA voracious reader. So you know,

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<v Speaker 1>I had all seventeen books by you know, every LURP

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<v Speaker 1>in one place, Tune from whatever company in the one

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<v Speaker 1>hundred and first and the point from the point Man

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<v Speaker 1>to the rto and read all those kind of books

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<v Speaker 1>growing up. So anyway, went off to college and then

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<v Speaker 1>commissioned in ninety four and that was that more or less.

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<v Speaker 1>I mean, it was some circuitous routes taken, but that's

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<v Speaker 1>how it got started.

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<v Speaker 2>and tell us about then coming into the Marine Corps

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<v Speaker 2>as a second lieutenant. This is like nineteen ninety four.

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<v Speaker 1>Yes, I commissioned in ninety four, and I'm pretty confident

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<v Speaker 1>I was the youngest second lieutenant in the Marine Corps

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<v Speaker 1>at the time, and I was I know, I was

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<v Speaker 1>the youngest Marine and Marine Forces specific, or the youngest

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<v Speaker 1>officer in Marine Force specific when I got there. But

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<v Speaker 1>you know, I was a baby. I was a straight

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<v Speaker 1>up mama's boy, and I had a lot to learn.

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<v Speaker 1>I learned it a fair you know, I was raised

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<v Speaker 1>my parents were divorced. My mother as in her own words,

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<v Speaker 1>I raised him to wear Brooks brothers, and all he

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<v Speaker 1>wants to do is crawl around the mud. And there

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<v Speaker 1>was some truth to that. And so off I went

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<v Speaker 1>to OCS, where I had a good hardening experience that

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<v Speaker 1>I needed, and then I went to the Basic School,

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<v Speaker 1>where I learned a fair bit more about hardening, and

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<v Speaker 1>then onto the Infantry Officer Course, and that was a

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<v Speaker 1>super formative experience for me. I would tell you that,

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<v Speaker 1>the Marine Infantry Officer Course. And I've gone to you know,

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<v Speaker 1>obviously a lot of schools since then for stress and oculation,

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<v Speaker 1>or for tactics or for whatever, but the first one, right,

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<v Speaker 1>really the second, I guess post the Basic School, the

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<v Speaker 1>Mftry Officer Course was the single greatest, and I think

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<v Speaker 1>it probably still is.

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<v Speaker 2>And your first assignment was second Battalion, Third Marines YEP.

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<v Speaker 1>I was the scout sniper platoon commander. So all my

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<v Speaker 1>buddies from the Infantry Officer course went to the rifle companies,

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<v Speaker 1>or you know a number of them anyway did. And

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<v Speaker 1>then I had gone to the Army's Military Intel Officer

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<v Speaker 1>Course at Fort Wachuka en route. So I showed up

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<v Speaker 1>about six months after them and took the sniper platoon.

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<v Speaker 1>And I was the first of a new MOS that

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<v Speaker 1>the Marine Corps started back in the early nineties in

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<v Speaker 1>response to intelligence failures during Desert Storm, and General PK.

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<v Speaker 3>Van riper lambasted Marine Corps.

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<v Speaker 1>Intelligence post Desert Storm, and in typical Marine Corps fashion,

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<v Speaker 1>the core came back said, cool, you got a problem,

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<v Speaker 1>come up with a solution. And so he started re

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<v Speaker 1>engineering Marine Corps intelligence program. And one of the failures

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<v Speaker 1>he saw was leadership within company grade and field great officers,

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<v Speaker 1>and so he said, all right, we're gonna put these

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<v Speaker 1>guys into combat roles first. And so if you became

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<v Speaker 1>a zero two zero three ground intelligence officer, you were

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<v Speaker 1>probably headed either to a recon battalion or to an

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<v Speaker 1>infantry battalion scouts niper platoon. And thinking I was going

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<v Speaker 1>to be in for three years at that time, I

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<v Speaker 1>really didn't.

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<v Speaker 3>See any reason to do anything else but go straight

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<v Speaker 3>that way.

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<v Speaker 1>If I had to do all over again, I probably

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<v Speaker 1>would have been a straight you know, infantry guy.

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<v Speaker 2>Is that kind of how the Marine Corps does things

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<v Speaker 2>that they bounce you around a little bit, trying to

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<v Speaker 2>make you more well rounded as you've become more senior.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I mean that's very much the way that the

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<v Speaker 1>Marine Corps manages officer assignments. You know, I say all

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<v Speaker 1>the time, I spent twenty seven total years as a marine,

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<v Speaker 1>about twenty two of that was active. The only thing

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<v Speaker 1>I am an expert in is employing experts. You know,

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<v Speaker 1>if I had to do headspace and timing on a

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<v Speaker 1>fifty cow, I mean, obviously I'm five years past retirement,

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<v Speaker 1>but I'm not sure I could have done it on

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<v Speaker 1>retirement day. And I'm embarrassed by that fact, but it's true,

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<v Speaker 1>and I have friends who still could do it twenty

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<v Speaker 1>five years later. But I'm not mechanical. But so those

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<v Speaker 1>kind of skills I know to look at the right

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<v Speaker 1>marine to do that thing. And so I think, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>my major skills that I learned were smelling bullshit, figuring

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<v Speaker 1>out who's really squared away and really competent and capable

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<v Speaker 1>and trustworthy, and then trusting those people.

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<v Speaker 2>What was it like trying to lead a or I

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<v Speaker 2>mean not trying, but you did lead a scout platoon,

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<v Speaker 2>a scout sniper platoon in the mid nineteen nineties. Was

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<v Speaker 2>that challenging in any ways to you know, handle a

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<v Speaker 2>bunch of Marines in a training environment.

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<v Speaker 1>Largely, I mean they're great marines. It was a challenging

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<v Speaker 1>because of the usual lieutenant dynamic, you know. And I'm

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<v Speaker 1>the Army has a way they treat their second lieutenants.

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<v Speaker 1>Some Marine Corps has a way it treats it second lieutenants.

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<v Speaker 1>The two are not identical. Obviously, I'm parochial, so I'm

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<v Speaker 1>partial towards the Marine Corps way. I showed up. I

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<v Speaker 1>had a bunch of salty one deployment lance corporals who

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<v Speaker 1>had taken the Scout sniper indoctrination at the tail end

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<v Speaker 1>of an Okinawa deployment, and they were now the core

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<v Speaker 1>of the platoon I probably had. I think I had

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<v Speaker 1>one sergeant and two corporals. One of those corporals is

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<v Speaker 1>a good friend today he's now he's the guy in

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<v Speaker 1>charge of the Mark Fmanship programs for the Texas Guard

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<v Speaker 1>and is like a CW four or five. But I

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<v Speaker 1>had that crowd when I walked in. What I did

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<v Speaker 1>not have was staff in CEO. And I had spent

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<v Speaker 1>my whole life preparing all I wanted to be was

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<v Speaker 1>the green army man with the binoculars and the pistol,

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<v Speaker 1>and who I always associated with being the lieutenant, And

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<v Speaker 1>so now there I was being it. But now I

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<v Speaker 1>also was a brand new MOS. There'd never been an

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<v Speaker 1>officer in charge of a Marine sniper platoon. It was

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<v Speaker 1>always a staff in co. And so I'm supposed to

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<v Speaker 1>be doing training plans and all the stuff that a

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<v Speaker 1>second lieutenant is supposed to be learning. I don't know

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<v Speaker 1>how to do any of it, and it doesn't The

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<v Speaker 1>Headquarters and Services Company did not have the architecture that

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<v Speaker 1>a rifle company would have. Had to bring me along,

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<v Speaker 1>and the other the EXO of the company was a

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<v Speaker 1>guy that was I mean, he was there for a reason.

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<v Speaker 1>The CEO was actually a really squared away guy, super

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<v Speaker 1>good guy. But he didn't have time to raise one

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<v Speaker 1>single lieutenant. He was trying to run, you know, cause

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<v Speaker 1>the headquarters battian is the guy with all the responsibility.

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<v Speaker 1>Excuse me, Headquarters and Services company guy is the guy

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<v Speaker 1>with all the responsibility and really none of the authority

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<v Speaker 1>in the battalion. So he's got to be a really

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<v Speaker 1>strong officer. But anyway, I had a we had a

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<v Speaker 1>great first sergeant named John Myers who used to slap

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<v Speaker 1>me around in a loving way, and I mean physically.

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<v Speaker 1>He was a big intimidating former interrogator type and.

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<v Speaker 3>He would thump you. But he got me a staff incia.

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<v Speaker 1>And I'll be the first to tell you that there's

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<v Speaker 1>what they tell you your staff and CEO's are going

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<v Speaker 1>to be when you're at the basic school. And then

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<v Speaker 1>there's the reality that stefan CEO's are human beings like

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<v Speaker 1>everyone else. And there's that spectrum between the guy who

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<v Speaker 1>walks on water and the guy who's on divorce number

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<v Speaker 1>seven and the DUI number two, and most people fall

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<v Speaker 1>out in between. I got Mike Kirtschweil, who walked on water,

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<v Speaker 1>and I say, to this day now retired Sergeant Major

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<v Speaker 1>Michael Shawn Kertschwil is the reason I had a career,

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<v Speaker 1>and despite my best efforts to ruin it. And he

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<v Speaker 1>was a counselor, he was a leader, he was a trainer,

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<v Speaker 1>and he was absolutely without ego and so he could

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<v Speaker 1>manipulate me into doing what needed to be done and

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<v Speaker 1>make me think that I had told him to do it,

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<v Speaker 1>and that wasn't slimy. It was generous.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, he was compelling or persuasive.

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<v Speaker 1>He trained his lieutenant the way you're supposed to do.

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<v Speaker 2>And then did you have to go and do some

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<v Speaker 2>time like after that as like an actual intel officer.

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<v Speaker 1>I did, and that was you know, I was super

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<v Speaker 1>immature coming into the Marine Corps.

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<v Speaker 3>I spent again my whole life fantasizing about how this

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<v Speaker 3>thing was going to be.

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<v Speaker 1>And I have only in the last couple of weeks

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<v Speaker 1>admitted to several friends that I'm an idealist and that

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<v Speaker 1>gets in the ways of reality sometimes, or maybe reality

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<v Speaker 1>gets in the way of my idealism, but either way,

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<v Speaker 1>I had an idea about how things were going to be,

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<v Speaker 1>and I believed that was exceptional enough that I could

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<v Speaker 1>run between the rain drops and they would be that way.

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<v Speaker 1>And then the Marine Corps said, yeah, go be a

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<v Speaker 1>battalion intelligence officer now, and I felt like I was

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<v Speaker 1>being punished. Had I been a grown up about the thing,

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<v Speaker 1>I would have realized, I'm going over to this other

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<v Speaker 1>battalion where the battalion commander wrote all the command and

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<v Speaker 1>control publications for the Marine Corps, or rewrote him, I

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<v Speaker 1>should say, And as a student of the game and

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<v Speaker 1>is the best battalion commander in this.

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<v Speaker 3>Regiment, and he not only is willing to let you.

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<v Speaker 1>Sit at his feet and learn, but he wants you

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<v Speaker 1>to I would have been a much better officer for it,

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<v Speaker 1>but I wasn't grown up enough to do that, and

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<v Speaker 1>so I was his intelligence officer, while you know, meanwhile,

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<v Speaker 1>constantly looking backwards, wanted to wear a boonie hat and

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<v Speaker 1>you carry a knife on my teeth.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, you hadn't gotten that opportunity, or at least not

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<v Speaker 2>enough of it from your perspective, So you went into

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<v Speaker 2>the reserves at that.

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<v Speaker 1>Point I did. I wasn't getting what I wanted, so

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<v Speaker 1>I took my ball and went home. And I'm real

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<v Speaker 1>upfront about that, And you know, people tried to make

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<v Speaker 1>a few options for me, a lot more in line

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<v Speaker 1>with what I wanted. But I ultimately like, Okay, I'm

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<v Speaker 1>gonna get out and go to grad school and I'm

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<v Speaker 1>going to join the reserves. And so I went to

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<v Speaker 1>Third Force Reconnaissance Company in Mobile, Alabama because I wanted

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<v Speaker 1>to be a for street comrine and I took their

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<v Speaker 1>indoctrination and I was not much of a swimmer, and

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<v Speaker 1>you gotta be. And they had to pull me off

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<v Speaker 1>the bottom of a swimming pool because we were treading

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<v Speaker 1>water with weights over our head or with a weight

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<v Speaker 1>over our head, and you know, you can't get to

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<v Speaker 1>ten pound weight wet. And I'm treading and treading, and

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<v Speaker 1>I'm just slowly sinking, sinking, sinking, until the weight is

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<v Speaker 1>now underwater along with me, and I just kept sinking

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<v Speaker 1>to the bottom of the pool. And so I finished

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<v Speaker 1>the whole end dock, which is about forty eight hours

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<v Speaker 1>of just getting your junk kicked. And at the conclusion

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<v Speaker 1>of it, you do an interview. You put on your

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<v Speaker 1>best camis and you go in there and you stand

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<v Speaker 1>in there in front of all these staff and cias,

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<v Speaker 1>and this one guy said, well, sir, uh, you can't swim,

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<v Speaker 1>but you seem to be willing to die to be here,

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<v Speaker 1>so I think we can train you. And I knew

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<v Speaker 1>I was in and I stayed at that unit for

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00:15:18.679 --> 00:15:23.039
<v Speaker 1>eight years and built some amazing friends, and I met

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<v Speaker 1>some really really.

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<v Speaker 3>You know, cool people that are lifelong friends today.

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<v Speaker 1>Officer and enlisted, really more enlisted, truthfully, and uh, and

295
00:15:32.720 --> 00:15:34.960
<v Speaker 1>that that was a way to scratch the itch.

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<v Speaker 2>For a while, and so you're enforced now, so presumably

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00:15:38.440 --> 00:15:40.360
<v Speaker 2>you had to go to dive school, jump school, all

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<v Speaker 2>that good stuff.

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<v Speaker 1>Did all that. I managed to make it through dive

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00:15:43.919 --> 00:15:46.120
<v Speaker 1>school without putting on water wings, although I very much

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00:15:46.159 --> 00:15:50.279
<v Speaker 1>wanted to. And uh, and then jump school and then

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00:15:50.440 --> 00:15:54.360
<v Speaker 1>did heyho never did free fall, but went out to Yuma,

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00:15:54.480 --> 00:15:56.720
<v Speaker 1>you know, and did the the we used to jump

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<v Speaker 1>to m C five with a static line deployment. Uh,

305
00:16:00.440 --> 00:16:03.879
<v Speaker 1>and so went out and did that. And then nine

306
00:16:03.879 --> 00:16:09.840
<v Speaker 1>to eleven came and I knew I couldn't stay on

307
00:16:09.919 --> 00:16:13.600
<v Speaker 1>the sidelines. I had worked as a pharmaceutical rep. I

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00:16:13.600 --> 00:16:15.639
<v Speaker 1>had gone to law school, and I was actually in

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00:16:15.720 --> 00:16:19.120
<v Speaker 1>law school after nine to eleven when we finally got

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00:16:19.120 --> 00:16:20.919
<v Speaker 1>the call from a reserve unit that we're going to

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00:16:20.919 --> 00:16:24.480
<v Speaker 1>send a platoon with first Force for you, with first

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00:16:24.519 --> 00:16:27.799
<v Speaker 1>Force to Iraq. Now, we're going to send two platoons

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<v Speaker 1>with second Force later. And I was the operations officer

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00:16:31.000 --> 00:16:33.200
<v Speaker 1>for the company at that point, and I turned to

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00:16:33.240 --> 00:16:36.480
<v Speaker 1>my buddy, who was the active duty instruct inspector instructor

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00:16:36.480 --> 00:16:39.360
<v Speaker 1>at the company, and said, you know, I think if

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00:16:39.399 --> 00:16:41.639
<v Speaker 1>I wait till this summer, I could probably take one

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00:16:41.679 --> 00:16:45.600
<v Speaker 1>of those platoons instead. Of going now and being like

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00:16:45.639 --> 00:16:48.679
<v Speaker 1>the night Watch officer, and he said, yeah, I think

320
00:16:48.720 --> 00:16:51.679
<v Speaker 1>he probably could make that happen. So that was straight chicanery.

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00:16:51.759 --> 00:16:54.600
<v Speaker 1>But you know, I wanted to go and do the

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00:16:54.759 --> 00:16:59.039
<v Speaker 1>do the deal. So I got some guys who had

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00:16:59.080 --> 00:17:02.240
<v Speaker 1>just come back with first recon from doing the Generation kill,

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00:17:02.720 --> 00:17:07.039
<v Speaker 1>march up to Baghdad, and then some homegrown guys and

325
00:17:07.839 --> 00:17:10.079
<v Speaker 1>off we went to Camp La June on my first

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00:17:10.079 --> 00:17:14.960
<v Speaker 1>wedding anniversary and headed off up there for three.

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00:17:14.759 --> 00:17:20.279
<v Speaker 2>Months for premission training. And what was you know, conceptually,

328
00:17:20.359 --> 00:17:22.400
<v Speaker 2>where were you guys heading? What were you training for?

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00:17:23.480 --> 00:17:25.839
<v Speaker 1>We were going to Iraq. We knew we were going

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<v Speaker 1>to ohif two. We were deployed in August of two

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<v Speaker 1>thousand and four. We had no Someday, I'm going to

332
00:17:33.480 --> 00:17:37.839
<v Speaker 1>write some really really really angry RANTI screed about that

333
00:17:37.960 --> 00:17:42.799
<v Speaker 1>period of time because I flew up there in December

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00:17:42.839 --> 00:17:48.640
<v Speaker 1>of two thousand and three, Yeah, two thousand and three

335
00:17:49.559 --> 00:17:51.759
<v Speaker 1>with three other Marines, and by the time we got

336
00:17:51.759 --> 00:17:53.960
<v Speaker 1>to the Raleigh airport, we had one cell phone between

337
00:17:54.039 --> 00:17:56.319
<v Speaker 1>us because it was in two thousand and two or whatever,

338
00:17:56.359 --> 00:18:01.640
<v Speaker 1>two thousand and three. We had a message that said

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00:18:01.759 --> 00:18:03.319
<v Speaker 1>two of you get on a plane and come right back.

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00:18:03.359 --> 00:18:06.480
<v Speaker 1>We got a prepare to deploy order. The other two

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00:18:06.519 --> 00:18:07.960
<v Speaker 1>of you go to Campell June and set up the

342
00:18:07.960 --> 00:18:09.920
<v Speaker 1>summer training like you're planning to. So I go down

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<v Speaker 1>there with the company ops chief and we send the

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00:18:13.720 --> 00:18:16.680
<v Speaker 1>other two guys back and we got down to La

345
00:18:16.759 --> 00:18:19.440
<v Speaker 1>June and we did what we were supposed to do.

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<v Speaker 3>We set up a bunch of training requested ranges.

347
00:18:21.519 --> 00:18:23.440
<v Speaker 1>We did all the training support requests, all the stuff

348
00:18:23.480 --> 00:18:27.880
<v Speaker 1>that you do, as well as found building, et cetera. Well,

349
00:18:28.960 --> 00:18:31.480
<v Speaker 1>six months later, when I showed back up to Camp

350
00:18:31.599 --> 00:18:35.680
<v Speaker 1>La June and walked into the ops shop at Second Force,

351
00:18:36.880 --> 00:18:40.000
<v Speaker 1>all of those TSRs, etc. Were sitting in the bottom

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<v Speaker 1>of the training assistant Training chiefs inbox.

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<v Speaker 3>You never moved them, never processed them. We don't have

354
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<v Speaker 3>a range set up.

355
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<v Speaker 1>Our building was then no longer existent, French Creek Barracks.

356
00:18:51.839 --> 00:18:55.680
<v Speaker 1>We had two functioning toilets for something like sixty nine marines,

357
00:18:57.559 --> 00:19:02.400
<v Speaker 1>and one of those went down under that load. We

358
00:19:02.599 --> 00:19:04.519
<v Speaker 1>you know, and I'm used, I've lived in condemned buildings

359
00:19:04.519 --> 00:19:06.599
<v Speaker 1>before as part of being a marine, not even like

360
00:19:06.599 --> 00:19:08.720
<v Speaker 1>in training or you know, hey, you're deployed you're going

361
00:19:08.759 --> 00:19:11.400
<v Speaker 1>to live in this bombed out shelter. No, Like, I've

362
00:19:11.440 --> 00:19:14.519
<v Speaker 1>lived on condemned buildings on more than one marine base

363
00:19:15.400 --> 00:19:19.559
<v Speaker 1>for an extended period of time, and that's normal.

364
00:19:19.799 --> 00:19:22.359
<v Speaker 3>But you know, we had feasts mounting up out of

365
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<v Speaker 3>the toilets.

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<v Speaker 1>It was grotesque, and so that that was I'm still

367
00:19:28.359 --> 00:19:33.240
<v Speaker 1>really angry twenty years later about the way that onboarding happened.

368
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<v Speaker 2>What do you what do you think that breakdown was there?

369
00:19:37.519 --> 00:19:40.319
<v Speaker 2>And go ahead, what do you think the breakdown was

370
00:19:40.400 --> 00:19:41.839
<v Speaker 2>that that resulted in that.

371
00:19:42.319 --> 00:19:43.559
<v Speaker 1>Somebody didn't do their job?

372
00:19:43.799 --> 00:19:44.480
<v Speaker 2>Yeah?

373
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<v Speaker 1>I mean, flatly, a guy didn't do his job, and

374
00:19:47.279 --> 00:19:50.279
<v Speaker 1>there there were there were personnel things that I you know,

375
00:19:50.279 --> 00:19:55.440
<v Speaker 1>I'm not going to litigate two decades later, personalities and personnel.

376
00:19:55.559 --> 00:20:00.440
<v Speaker 1>But the flat reality is none of the paperwork required

377
00:20:00.480 --> 00:20:04.559
<v Speaker 1>to train, feed, and house a unit that was being

378
00:20:04.720 --> 00:20:09.400
<v Speaker 1>that they knew they were gaining was processed. And hey,

379
00:20:09.440 --> 00:20:11.279
<v Speaker 1>you know that's two way street. We didn't do our

380
00:20:11.359 --> 00:20:14.359
<v Speaker 1>job of going did you file all the paperwork? Yeah?

381
00:20:14.400 --> 00:20:15.960
<v Speaker 1>We did, it's good. You know, we didn't do a

382
00:20:15.960 --> 00:20:20.400
<v Speaker 1>confirmation brief nears ing tel so you know that didn't happen.

383
00:20:20.640 --> 00:20:23.559
<v Speaker 1>We recovered it, but it was kind of reminiscent of

384
00:20:23.599 --> 00:20:25.720
<v Speaker 1>when I was a second lieutenant. Suddenly I'm in a

385
00:20:25.759 --> 00:20:27.720
<v Speaker 1>situation of I don't know the training areas, I don't

386
00:20:27.720 --> 00:20:29.559
<v Speaker 1>know the place, I don't know the procedures, and I

387
00:20:29.559 --> 00:20:32.599
<v Speaker 1>got to come up with a plan to deploy two

388
00:20:32.599 --> 00:20:35.079
<v Speaker 1>platoons to war in ninety days. And oh, by the way,

389
00:20:35.119 --> 00:20:37.200
<v Speaker 1>none of us ever been to war except for the

390
00:20:37.359 --> 00:20:39.559
<v Speaker 1>few guys who had just come back from doing the

391
00:20:39.599 --> 00:20:41.960
<v Speaker 1>march up with first re combat time. And so if

392
00:20:42.000 --> 00:20:43.200
<v Speaker 1>you ask them, well, what do you do when you

393
00:20:43.200 --> 00:20:45.720
<v Speaker 1>go to Iraq? Well, you drive really fast, you do

394
00:20:45.799 --> 00:20:48.680
<v Speaker 1>convoy ops. You know, you stop and get into firefights.

395
00:20:48.720 --> 00:20:51.920
<v Speaker 1>You do ambush trill counter ambush drills. That's what you do.

396
00:20:52.039 --> 00:20:54.960
<v Speaker 1>And we learned how to live out of a humbye. Well,

397
00:20:55.359 --> 00:20:58.160
<v Speaker 1>you know what we did was DA raids. I did

398
00:20:59.200 --> 00:21:03.400
<v Speaker 1>seven months of door kicking. And so what should have

399
00:21:03.920 --> 00:21:06.440
<v Speaker 1>happened is we should have spent you know, days and

400
00:21:06.519 --> 00:21:08.440
<v Speaker 1>days and weeks and weeks on a flat range and

401
00:21:08.480 --> 00:21:12.440
<v Speaker 1>then in a mount facility and et cetera. But that's

402
00:21:12.519 --> 00:21:14.240
<v Speaker 1>that's not what happened. So we kind of made it

403
00:21:14.279 --> 00:21:14.720
<v Speaker 1>up on the fly.

404
00:21:16.160 --> 00:21:18.240
<v Speaker 2>And so you guys get there with the second Force.

405
00:21:18.400 --> 00:21:22.599
<v Speaker 2>It was Al Kayim, Iraq, right, mm hmm. And what

406
00:21:23.039 --> 00:21:25.160
<v Speaker 2>was the mission that you guys were assigned at that time?

407
00:21:26.279 --> 00:21:29.440
<v Speaker 1>I mean it was pretty pretty classic Marine Corps mission.

408
00:21:29.440 --> 00:21:32.319
<v Speaker 1>I couldn't I couldn't tell you the exact mission statement.

409
00:21:32.319 --> 00:21:35.960
<v Speaker 1>Although the we were working with first Battalion, seventh Marines there.

410
00:21:35.960 --> 00:21:37.480
<v Speaker 1>Op So is still a good friend of mine and

411
00:21:38.720 --> 00:21:42.480
<v Speaker 1>works at MARSC. Now he kind of used us as

412
00:21:42.519 --> 00:21:46.279
<v Speaker 1>his brute squad. And you know, we had there were

413
00:21:46.319 --> 00:21:48.799
<v Speaker 1>three rifle companies there, but one of them was guarding

414
00:21:48.799 --> 00:21:51.839
<v Speaker 1>an ASP that had massive holes in the fence line.

415
00:21:52.359 --> 00:21:55.000
<v Speaker 1>You could watch people walking in and walking back out

416
00:21:55.039 --> 00:22:00.519
<v Speaker 1>with munitions on is R. So that company was literally

417
00:22:00.559 --> 00:22:04.119
<v Speaker 1>living and patrolling at an ASP to try and keep

418
00:22:04.160 --> 00:22:07.839
<v Speaker 1>it from becoming a supply line to the MOOS. One

419
00:22:07.960 --> 00:22:12.200
<v Speaker 1>company was holding down Camp Gannon in Huseba, which was

420
00:22:12.200 --> 00:22:14.839
<v Speaker 1>probably at the time before Fallujah really kicked off, was

421
00:22:14.839 --> 00:22:18.960
<v Speaker 1>probably the most dangerous city and in Iraq, the back

422
00:22:19.119 --> 00:22:23.680
<v Speaker 1>fence line of that camp was is Syria, and so

423
00:22:23.799 --> 00:22:26.000
<v Speaker 1>not only were they fighting the moves, occasionally the Syrians

424
00:22:26.000 --> 00:22:28.480
<v Speaker 1>would accidentally whip her, you know, a mortar round across

425
00:22:28.519 --> 00:22:33.440
<v Speaker 1>the border. So that company was there, and then we

426
00:22:33.480 --> 00:22:35.960
<v Speaker 1>had a company at Alkim with us, and they were

427
00:22:36.000 --> 00:22:39.599
<v Speaker 1>actually out doing what the you know, mobile assault platoons

428
00:22:39.640 --> 00:22:42.480
<v Speaker 1>out patrolling, and a mobile assault platoon was effectively a

429
00:22:42.519 --> 00:22:45.680
<v Speaker 1>mounted infantry platoon driving around finding IDs with their tires

430
00:22:47.039 --> 00:22:50.839
<v Speaker 1>and so and God bless them. I mean, the absolute

431
00:22:50.880 --> 00:22:56.000
<v Speaker 1>definition of bravery is those marines. And so, you know,

432
00:22:56.039 --> 00:22:57.279
<v Speaker 1>we used to we would eat with them in the

433
00:22:57.319 --> 00:22:58.720
<v Speaker 1>chow hall, and we had someone who would come and

434
00:22:58.720 --> 00:23:00.160
<v Speaker 1>hang out with us, and we would do train in

435
00:23:00.200 --> 00:23:02.279
<v Speaker 1>with them and help them, you know, some of their

436
00:23:02.319 --> 00:23:04.319
<v Speaker 1>CQB kind of stuff, because I had some guys who

437
00:23:04.319 --> 00:23:08.839
<v Speaker 1>were super switched on on it obviously, And I remember

438
00:23:09.000 --> 00:23:10.960
<v Speaker 1>one of these marines saying to me, I couldn't do

439
00:23:11.000 --> 00:23:13.079
<v Speaker 1>what you guys do, like go in their houses every

440
00:23:13.160 --> 00:23:15.039
<v Speaker 1>night and blowing out these doors. And I was like,

441
00:23:15.599 --> 00:23:18.960
<v Speaker 1>you're literally out there driving around waiting to get exploded.

442
00:23:19.440 --> 00:23:24.400
<v Speaker 1>I psychologically speaking, I'm there's no death debate. Who's tougher here, buddy.

443
00:23:25.480 --> 00:23:29.480
<v Speaker 1>But anyway, they were out there the closest thing to

444
00:23:29.519 --> 00:23:33.359
<v Speaker 1>an offensive arm. So eighth Platoon of Second Force Ricon's

445
00:23:33.440 --> 00:23:37.799
<v Speaker 1>job was u literially kill or capture hvts. And then

446
00:23:37.839 --> 00:23:41.839
<v Speaker 1>that became in politics, so it became capture or kill hvts.

447
00:23:42.400 --> 00:23:44.920
<v Speaker 1>But you know what's the distinction.

448
00:23:45.920 --> 00:23:48.559
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, uh, and they kept you pretty busy. How long

449
00:23:48.559 --> 00:23:49.599
<v Speaker 2>were you deployed over there?

450
00:23:50.319 --> 00:23:54.039
<v Speaker 1>That was seven months? And I mean I would we

451
00:23:54.039 --> 00:23:56.920
<v Speaker 1>were not moving with like you talked to some of

452
00:23:56.960 --> 00:23:59.519
<v Speaker 1>my Ranger Regiment friends. We were not moving with the

453
00:23:59.519 --> 00:24:03.079
<v Speaker 1>speed of the regiment. But you know, later being deployed

454
00:24:03.079 --> 00:24:07.160
<v Speaker 1>forward with a lot of the regiment, I recognized, like

455
00:24:07.640 --> 00:24:10.200
<v Speaker 1>if you read the Crystal's book about the development of

456
00:24:10.240 --> 00:24:13.440
<v Speaker 1>the Task Force in Baghdad and procedures, et cetera, or

457
00:24:13.480 --> 00:24:17.240
<v Speaker 1>when I talked to my friends from from that element

458
00:24:17.279 --> 00:24:19.519
<v Speaker 1>of socom, you know, the way we.

459
00:24:19.440 --> 00:24:21.880
<v Speaker 3>Learned was kind of happening in parallel.

460
00:24:23.480 --> 00:24:27.000
<v Speaker 1>My CEO at Second Force who took the company right

461
00:24:27.039 --> 00:24:32.079
<v Speaker 1>before we deployed, and as a very dear friend of

462
00:24:32.079 --> 00:24:34.400
<v Speaker 1>mine to this day, I had come from the CT

463
00:24:34.599 --> 00:24:38.839
<v Speaker 1>world and had kind of we we He went, Okay,

464
00:24:38.839 --> 00:24:40.559
<v Speaker 1>we got to organize a targeting board, we got to

465
00:24:40.640 --> 00:24:43.319
<v Speaker 1>organize an intel cell, We got to start doing these

466
00:24:43.319 --> 00:24:45.400
<v Speaker 1>things for real. There was no It was a very

467
00:24:45.519 --> 00:24:49.960
<v Speaker 1>nascent is. Sr Ir was an intel analyst and a

468
00:24:50.000 --> 00:24:55.000
<v Speaker 1>huet with long lensed camera overflying our targets. But they

469
00:24:55.039 --> 00:24:57.799
<v Speaker 1>built target packages for so we could actually start looking

470
00:24:57.839 --> 00:25:04.519
<v Speaker 1>at at where we might go and then uh that

471
00:25:04.599 --> 00:25:06.200
<v Speaker 1>I mean, by the end of that deployment, we could

472
00:25:06.200 --> 00:25:07.960
<v Speaker 1>look at a house and know from the shape of

473
00:25:07.960 --> 00:25:09.920
<v Speaker 1>the house, like, oh, that'll be the prayer room, here's

474
00:25:09.960 --> 00:25:12.079
<v Speaker 1>the entryway, probably kitchen is going to be right here.

475
00:25:12.079 --> 00:25:14.279
<v Speaker 1>Like we've just been in so many that we knew

476
00:25:14.319 --> 00:25:18.599
<v Speaker 1>the layout. But anyway, that that was. It's always interesting

477
00:25:18.640 --> 00:25:21.400
<v Speaker 1>for me to talk to folks from that side of

478
00:25:21.440 --> 00:25:29.160
<v Speaker 1>socom or and realize how organizations adapt under pressure is

479
00:25:29.200 --> 00:25:30.079
<v Speaker 1>pretty identical.

480
00:25:32.240 --> 00:25:34.920
<v Speaker 2>What were some of those like lessons learned, those conclusions

481
00:25:34.920 --> 00:25:37.680
<v Speaker 2>that you guys were coming to learning through experience.

482
00:25:38.079 --> 00:25:39.599
<v Speaker 1>Well, I mean a lot of it was just basic

483
00:25:39.640 --> 00:25:41.640
<v Speaker 1>tactical stuff, and some of it is, you know, to

484
00:25:41.759 --> 00:25:47.200
<v Speaker 1>the I'm sure to the tactical crowd would be super boring. Discipline,

485
00:25:47.400 --> 00:25:52.599
<v Speaker 1>basic Marine Corps discipline, solid SOPs. Like I organized my platoon.

486
00:25:52.599 --> 00:25:54.519
<v Speaker 1>I had twenty five marines and I just split them

487
00:25:54.559 --> 00:25:56.279
<v Speaker 1>down the middle, and I had an alpha element and

488
00:25:56.279 --> 00:26:00.000
<v Speaker 1>a Bravo element, and you know, Tuesday night alpha element

489
00:26:00.039 --> 00:26:02.400
<v Speaker 1>and is driving the trucks and running the guns and

490
00:26:02.519 --> 00:26:04.200
<v Speaker 1>Bravo element. I don't have to let my dog in

491
00:26:04.279 --> 00:26:08.559
<v Speaker 1>a minute. Bravo element is is going to do the

492
00:26:08.599 --> 00:26:11.519
<v Speaker 1>actual hit? You know, I always went with the assault element.

493
00:26:11.720 --> 00:26:17.799
<v Speaker 1>My platoon sergeant always ran the perimeter. And you know,

494
00:26:17.920 --> 00:26:21.160
<v Speaker 1>every every mission, you know, we had a timeline the

495
00:26:21.240 --> 00:26:22.279
<v Speaker 1>guy and I published it.

496
00:26:22.319 --> 00:26:23.960
<v Speaker 3>The guys knew when to do what, but I still

497
00:26:23.960 --> 00:26:24.920
<v Speaker 3>published the timeline.

498
00:26:24.960 --> 00:26:27.759
<v Speaker 1>We had a warning order every time we had a conops,

499
00:26:27.839 --> 00:26:30.240
<v Speaker 1>every time we had a con ops brief, every time

500
00:26:31.079 --> 00:26:35.079
<v Speaker 1>everybody got brief together. I learned sometimes that my plan

501
00:26:35.279 --> 00:26:38.319
<v Speaker 1>was fallible and that I needed to take suggestions from

502
00:26:38.359 --> 00:26:39.240
<v Speaker 1>the peanut.

503
00:26:38.880 --> 00:26:43.759
<v Speaker 3>Gallery, which they you know, we were very much a unit.

504
00:26:43.559 --> 00:26:46.920
<v Speaker 1>And I I believe strongly, you know, in the old

505
00:26:47.160 --> 00:26:52.039
<v Speaker 1>and the concepts of debriefs, brief backs, et cetera, where

506
00:26:52.079 --> 00:26:56.799
<v Speaker 1>everybody sits in and everybody has a voice, and you know,

507
00:26:56.920 --> 00:27:00.480
<v Speaker 1>sometimes the corporal who pipes up from the back and

508
00:27:00.559 --> 00:27:04.000
<v Speaker 1>shreds your good idea is one hundred percent correct, and

509
00:27:04.079 --> 00:27:06.799
<v Speaker 1>if you fail to adapt to his or her good idea,

510
00:27:07.279 --> 00:27:09.079
<v Speaker 1>well you're screwing yourself in the whole unit.

511
00:27:09.559 --> 00:27:11.559
<v Speaker 3>So I think that was a big thing.

512
00:27:12.319 --> 00:27:14.079
<v Speaker 1>As I said, I split the unit down the middle,

513
00:27:14.279 --> 00:27:17.359
<v Speaker 1>and so after we'd done an assault the night before,

514
00:27:18.000 --> 00:27:20.119
<v Speaker 1>the folks who were in the assault element would build

515
00:27:20.119 --> 00:27:23.519
<v Speaker 1>a tape house identical to the target, and the guys

516
00:27:23.519 --> 00:27:26.799
<v Speaker 1>who were drivers and gunners the night before would debrief

517
00:27:27.000 --> 00:27:31.200
<v Speaker 1>via the tape house. Here's what d this happened, Here's

518
00:27:31.240 --> 00:27:34.119
<v Speaker 1>where that happened, Here's where we found this thing. And

519
00:27:34.200 --> 00:27:37.240
<v Speaker 1>I just think that. And I didn't drive that because

520
00:27:37.640 --> 00:27:39.960
<v Speaker 1>I was kind of a one man planning cell. I

521
00:27:40.000 --> 00:27:44.640
<v Speaker 1>didn't sleep for seven months because my guys might sleep

522
00:27:44.680 --> 00:27:49.759
<v Speaker 1>eight nine, ten hours hopefully, but I was up planning, briefing, debriefing,

523
00:27:50.000 --> 00:27:52.519
<v Speaker 1>going to see the battalion, adjacent battalion commander, or whatever

524
00:27:52.559 --> 00:27:54.559
<v Speaker 1>I had to do is as the officer to keep

525
00:27:54.599 --> 00:27:57.440
<v Speaker 1>things rolling and then grab an hour a shut eye

526
00:27:57.440 --> 00:27:59.400
<v Speaker 1>before we went out the door, which frankly I was

527
00:27:59.480 --> 00:28:01.799
<v Speaker 1>usually to hyped up an anxious to grab an hour

528
00:28:01.920 --> 00:28:04.440
<v Speaker 1>shut eye and then we go out and do the thing.

529
00:28:05.640 --> 00:28:08.319
<v Speaker 2>And you worked in conjunction. Was this the deployment where

530
00:28:08.319 --> 00:28:10.519
<v Speaker 2>you were with a SF team at the same time.

531
00:28:10.720 --> 00:28:15.240
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I was with a fifth Group ODA. Will Bowman

532
00:28:15.519 --> 00:28:21.000
<v Speaker 1>was the ODA commander, and so I was with those

533
00:28:21.039 --> 00:28:23.279
<v Speaker 1>guys and then they departed. They did not have a

534
00:28:23.319 --> 00:28:29.960
<v Speaker 1>partner force, and so they departed to go east and

535
00:28:30.039 --> 00:28:32.839
<v Speaker 1>work with an actual partner force and do SF things.

536
00:28:33.799 --> 00:28:35.640
<v Speaker 1>But I did enjoy love. I loved working with those

537
00:28:35.640 --> 00:28:37.559
<v Speaker 1>because Will that was a marine who had actually gone

538
00:28:37.559 --> 00:28:40.359
<v Speaker 1>to the basic school one class behind me, so we

539
00:28:40.440 --> 00:28:42.279
<v Speaker 1>knew a lot of folks. And then, sort of like me,

540
00:28:42.319 --> 00:28:43.799
<v Speaker 1>he wasn't getting what he wanted in the Marine Corps,

541
00:28:43.799 --> 00:28:46.599
<v Speaker 1>so he jumped ship and became an army SF guy.

542
00:28:47.400 --> 00:28:50.880
<v Speaker 3>And then a tenth group team came in and I.

543
00:28:50.799 --> 00:28:52.680
<v Speaker 1>Worked with those guys a couple of times as we

544
00:28:52.680 --> 00:28:53.960
<v Speaker 1>were stepping out the door.

545
00:28:55.880 --> 00:28:57.640
<v Speaker 4>If you're in the market for a new mattress, you've

546
00:28:57.640 --> 00:28:59.759
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547
00:29:00.359 --> 00:29:03.640
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548
00:29:03.720 --> 00:29:04.680
<v Speaker 4>here's the only brand that.

549
00:29:04.640 --> 00:29:05.200
<v Speaker 1>Does it right.

550
00:29:05.480 --> 00:29:08.960
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551
00:29:08.960 --> 00:29:12.119
<v Speaker 4>by manufacturing experts with more than twenty years of mattress

552
00:29:12.160 --> 00:29:14.920
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553
00:29:14.960 --> 00:29:17.720
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554
00:29:17.759 --> 00:29:20.240
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555
00:29:20.359 --> 00:29:23.519
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556
00:29:23.519 --> 00:29:27.920
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557
00:29:27.960 --> 00:29:31.240
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558
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559
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560
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561
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562
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563
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564
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565
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566
00:29:55.839 --> 00:29:58.279
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567
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568
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569
00:30:05.440 --> 00:30:08.880
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570
00:30:09.440 --> 00:30:11.720
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571
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572
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573
00:30:17.319 --> 00:30:20.160
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574
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575
00:30:23.599 --> 00:30:25.119
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576
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577
00:30:28.359 --> 00:30:31.359
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579
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580
00:30:35.240 --> 00:30:37.160
<v Speaker 1>Thanks guys, and.

581
00:30:37.240 --> 00:30:39.319
<v Speaker 2>Then talk to us about rotating back home.

582
00:30:40.799 --> 00:30:44.319
<v Speaker 1>That you know, that's one of the things everybody talks about, transition,

583
00:30:44.640 --> 00:30:48.799
<v Speaker 1>et cetera. But it was a big change. I was

584
00:30:48.839 --> 00:30:52.319
<v Speaker 1>on a one year activation and I had finished two

585
00:30:52.359 --> 00:30:54.960
<v Speaker 1>years of law school, and I had undergone a pretty

586
00:30:55.000 --> 00:30:58.799
<v Speaker 1>significant mental shift. I mean, I told you I've finally

587
00:30:58.839 --> 00:31:01.920
<v Speaker 1>acknowledged I'm an ideal. I went over there like I'm

588
00:31:01.960 --> 00:31:04.359
<v Speaker 1>going to teach the Iraqi people about the Fourth Amendment.

589
00:31:05.079 --> 00:31:08.480
<v Speaker 1>And you know, four months later, I was like, you

590
00:31:08.519 --> 00:31:11.839
<v Speaker 1>slap another pound of C four on that door au

591
00:31:11.880 --> 00:31:17.279
<v Speaker 1>as we can. And I don't think that that wasn't

592
00:31:17.319 --> 00:31:19.680
<v Speaker 1>a healthy shift. That wasn't a good shift. I held

593
00:31:19.720 --> 00:31:21.559
<v Speaker 1>on to my morals, I held on to what was right,

594
00:31:22.079 --> 00:31:26.559
<v Speaker 1>but I definitely became more callous over seven months. And

595
00:31:26.599 --> 00:31:29.720
<v Speaker 1>then I came home and I was like, I'm going

596
00:31:29.759 --> 00:31:32.000
<v Speaker 1>back to that. And I was like any other person

597
00:31:32.000 --> 00:31:35.640
<v Speaker 1>who'd gotten a taste of something and wanted more and

598
00:31:35.680 --> 00:31:36.160
<v Speaker 1>you know, it's.

599
00:31:36.000 --> 00:31:38.039
<v Speaker 3>Like embarrassing to admit to a bunch of people, but

600
00:31:38.079 --> 00:31:38.480
<v Speaker 3>it's true.

601
00:31:38.480 --> 00:31:40.759
<v Speaker 1>Like my wife would be off at her job and

602
00:31:40.759 --> 00:31:42.759
<v Speaker 1>I'd be home from law school in my third year,

603
00:31:43.119 --> 00:31:46.400
<v Speaker 1>and I'd get home relatively early, and I'm like, you know,

604
00:31:46.559 --> 00:31:49.359
<v Speaker 1>clearing rooms and pying corners and stuff in my house

605
00:31:49.720 --> 00:31:51.920
<v Speaker 1>to stay sharp because in my head like this is.

606
00:31:51.920 --> 00:31:53.720
<v Speaker 3>Gonna I'm going back. This is gonna happen.

607
00:31:56.319 --> 00:32:01.079
<v Speaker 1>And so I ended up back at UH back on activity.

608
00:32:01.319 --> 00:32:05.119
<v Speaker 1>The Marine Corps asked for volunteers, and in two thousand

609
00:32:05.119 --> 00:32:06.759
<v Speaker 1>and six I went back in full time.

610
00:32:07.640 --> 00:32:09.880
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, so tell us how that comes about. That there's

611
00:32:09.920 --> 00:32:13.039
<v Speaker 2>this new thing called MARSK and they're looking for volunteers.

612
00:32:13.200 --> 00:32:14.319
<v Speaker 2>How did that happen for you?

613
00:32:16.160 --> 00:32:19.480
<v Speaker 1>So I was there was an allmar and All Marines

614
00:32:19.519 --> 00:32:21.920
<v Speaker 1>message went out, and I got the All mar that said, Hey,

615
00:32:21.920 --> 00:32:25.680
<v Speaker 1>we're looking for you know, select Marine corpserve officers return

616
00:32:25.720 --> 00:32:28.759
<v Speaker 1>to active duty and serve. You know, we got two

617
00:32:28.799 --> 00:32:31.039
<v Speaker 1>hot wars going and we need you. Okay, cool, And

618
00:32:31.079 --> 00:32:32.960
<v Speaker 1>I was like, well, I'm a four street kind guy, like,

619
00:32:33.440 --> 00:32:35.440
<v Speaker 1>surely I can overcome. I didn't even think about the

620
00:32:35.440 --> 00:32:37.039
<v Speaker 1>fact that I had effected in the Marine Corps. I

621
00:32:37.079 --> 00:32:39.440
<v Speaker 1>has been out for eight years. I had already put

622
00:32:39.440 --> 00:32:43.279
<v Speaker 1>a bullet in my head career wise, and I didn't

623
00:32:43.400 --> 00:32:45.559
<v Speaker 1>really I just didn't think about it. Again. I was

624
00:32:45.640 --> 00:32:48.079
<v Speaker 1>very immature for a long time in some ways, and

625
00:32:48.240 --> 00:32:51.039
<v Speaker 1>I now realize some of that's because I'm an idealist.

626
00:32:51.519 --> 00:32:53.400
<v Speaker 1>Some of it was ego. I thought I as I said,

627
00:32:53.400 --> 00:32:56.240
<v Speaker 1>I thought I could run between the rain drops. I'm special,

628
00:32:56.279 --> 00:32:58.759
<v Speaker 1>and you know, some stuff doesn't land on me. But

629
00:33:01.480 --> 00:33:06.759
<v Speaker 1>I applied, and I think three applicants were accepted. I

630
00:33:06.799 --> 00:33:08.920
<v Speaker 1>think I was the only one who was brought back

631
00:33:08.920 --> 00:33:10.839
<v Speaker 1>in in the MOS. I wanted to come back in

632
00:33:10.880 --> 00:33:14.720
<v Speaker 1>as which was an infantry officer, so I returned to

633
00:33:14.839 --> 00:33:18.720
<v Speaker 1>active duty with orders to Marsock. Part of that was

634
00:33:19.200 --> 00:33:22.839
<v Speaker 1>I was sitting preparing for my last semester exams and

635
00:33:22.960 --> 00:33:26.920
<v Speaker 1>my little cell phone rang will flip phone and it

636
00:33:27.000 --> 00:33:28.839
<v Speaker 1>was a buddy of mine had been roommates with in

637
00:33:28.880 --> 00:33:31.599
<v Speaker 1>two three, you know, I don't know eleven twelve years before,

638
00:33:31.640 --> 00:33:34.519
<v Speaker 1>and now he was the monitor, which is the branch

639
00:33:34.599 --> 00:33:36.200
<v Speaker 1>manager in the army. I think you guys call it

640
00:33:37.599 --> 00:33:40.079
<v Speaker 1>and it's a it's a career maker job, like for

641
00:33:40.720 --> 00:33:43.920
<v Speaker 1>an older company. Great officer and he's like, hey, man,

642
00:33:44.279 --> 00:33:47.200
<v Speaker 1>I just do I see your name on a message

643
00:33:47.240 --> 00:33:50.599
<v Speaker 1>for orders because you knew I've got now And I said, yeah,

644
00:33:50.720 --> 00:33:52.960
<v Speaker 1>you do. And he said, well, what are you trying

645
00:33:53.000 --> 00:33:54.920
<v Speaker 1>to do? And I said, I'm going to Marsac talk

646
00:33:55.000 --> 00:33:58.480
<v Speaker 1>to this guy, Pepe Tronzio, who was my CEO second

647
00:33:58.519 --> 00:34:00.480
<v Speaker 1>force on that deployment, who's now the G three at

648
00:34:00.519 --> 00:34:00.960
<v Speaker 1>mar Sock.

649
00:34:01.400 --> 00:34:03.440
<v Speaker 3>Pete's gonna hook it up, you know, make it happen.

650
00:34:04.039 --> 00:34:07.759
<v Speaker 1>And and funnily enough, three years later that guy called

651
00:34:07.759 --> 00:34:09.000
<v Speaker 1>me and was like, all right, man, you're up for

652
00:34:09.119 --> 00:34:09.639
<v Speaker 1>orders again.

653
00:34:09.719 --> 00:34:11.239
<v Speaker 3>What are you going to do to get the soft

654
00:34:11.320 --> 00:34:12.039
<v Speaker 3>stink off of it?

655
00:34:13.480 --> 00:34:16.719
<v Speaker 1>And I said, well, I've I've already arranged orders to

656
00:34:16.800 --> 00:34:23.000
<v Speaker 1>Jay Sock, So I guess nothing I get.

657
00:34:24.199 --> 00:34:29.000
<v Speaker 2>I'm taking a bath in it. And so what was

658
00:34:29.039 --> 00:34:31.760
<v Speaker 2>it like getting to Jason or I'm sorry to MARSK

659
00:34:31.840 --> 00:34:35.760
<v Speaker 2>in those early years where you're trying to like stand

660
00:34:35.840 --> 00:34:37.679
<v Speaker 2>up a unit and stand up a capability.

661
00:34:38.320 --> 00:34:41.599
<v Speaker 1>It was so cool. Honestly, I was a total staff

662
00:34:41.639 --> 00:34:43.599
<v Speaker 1>guy Pete. In fact, Pete hit me up and he

663
00:34:43.639 --> 00:34:44.639
<v Speaker 1>was like, hey, you want to go down to a

664
00:34:44.639 --> 00:34:46.519
<v Speaker 1>Battian or you don't want to work in the G shop. Now,

665
00:34:46.559 --> 00:34:48.119
<v Speaker 1>no officer in his right mind says I want to

666
00:34:48.159 --> 00:34:50.760
<v Speaker 1>go to the G three. But one all my friends

667
00:34:50.760 --> 00:34:53.639
<v Speaker 1>from Force Riecan were there. Two I recognized I had

668
00:34:53.679 --> 00:34:56.480
<v Speaker 1>a serious lack of knowledge. I was coming back to

669
00:34:56.519 --> 00:34:59.400
<v Speaker 1>active duty as a junior major. I'd never done any

670
00:34:59.480 --> 00:35:02.559
<v Speaker 1>kind of staff stuff. I basically was, you know, a

671
00:35:02.559 --> 00:35:08.119
<v Speaker 1>subject matter expertise in force re con operations. And as

672
00:35:08.159 --> 00:35:11.320
<v Speaker 1>you alluded to earlier, the right pedigree for a Marine

673
00:35:11.320 --> 00:35:14.320
<v Speaker 1>officer is to do a vast number of career broadening,

674
00:35:14.639 --> 00:35:20.639
<v Speaker 1>knowledge broadening stuff. And again, I was immature. I was selfish.

675
00:35:20.760 --> 00:35:23.159
<v Speaker 1>I wanted to do what I wanted to do. Nobody

676
00:35:23.199 --> 00:35:26.480
<v Speaker 1>needed to tell me how to do business. And so

677
00:35:26.599 --> 00:35:28.239
<v Speaker 1>I said, you know what, it's time for you to

678
00:35:28.239 --> 00:35:32.960
<v Speaker 1>grow up. And plus, my wife, you know, is a

679
00:35:33.679 --> 00:35:35.599
<v Speaker 1>never been a military wife for outside of the reserve.

680
00:35:35.679 --> 00:35:39.199
<v Speaker 1>She's been through a combat deployment, but this is a

681
00:35:39.239 --> 00:35:41.239
<v Speaker 1>new thing for her. So all right, I'm gonna go

682
00:35:41.239 --> 00:35:43.840
<v Speaker 1>to the G shop with all my friends. And honestly,

683
00:35:44.079 --> 00:35:46.360
<v Speaker 1>I remember sitting one day in my cubicle in the

684
00:35:46.400 --> 00:35:48.199
<v Speaker 1>G three and I was like, I could do this forever,

685
00:35:48.320 --> 00:35:51.199
<v Speaker 1>Like I'm surrounded by great people. This is I've got

686
00:35:51.280 --> 00:35:55.440
<v Speaker 1>cool work. I like organizations. When the paint hasn't dried,

687
00:35:55.559 --> 00:35:58.360
<v Speaker 1>the cement's still wet, you know, you're figuring it out.

688
00:35:58.960 --> 00:36:02.599
<v Speaker 1>And credit Pete Petronzio. He's the kind of guy who

689
00:36:03.280 --> 00:36:06.840
<v Speaker 1>you know, everybody hated us in two thousand and six,

690
00:36:06.920 --> 00:36:10.280
<v Speaker 1>the Marine Corps hated us. So Calm hated this. Everybody

691
00:36:10.400 --> 00:36:15.599
<v Speaker 1>was mad at us. And we'd have staff meetings every

692
00:36:15.599 --> 00:36:19.280
<v Speaker 1>morning at seven am, and you know, against the Marine Corps.

693
00:36:19.320 --> 00:36:22.039
<v Speaker 1>So typically it's shaving a haircut and you know, uniforms.

694
00:36:22.599 --> 00:36:25.320
<v Speaker 1>You show up at seven am. My wife was living

695
00:36:25.320 --> 00:36:27.400
<v Speaker 1>in Raleigh. I was commuting two and a half hours

696
00:36:27.400 --> 00:36:30.719
<v Speaker 1>some morning to make the seven am staff meeting. You

697
00:36:30.760 --> 00:36:33.400
<v Speaker 1>walk into a hoodie and you know, three day beard,

698
00:36:33.639 --> 00:36:35.880
<v Speaker 1>it's just sit on the floor. We're gonna do the

699
00:36:35.880 --> 00:36:38.639
<v Speaker 1>staff meeting. It was all business and look, I'm a guy.

700
00:36:39.159 --> 00:36:42.280
<v Speaker 1>I'm for shaving a haircut. That's that's a Marine thing.

701
00:36:42.800 --> 00:36:45.079
<v Speaker 1>It's a good thing. It works for the Marine Corps

702
00:36:45.559 --> 00:36:48.280
<v Speaker 1>and ultimately worked for us. But it was just you

703
00:36:48.320 --> 00:36:50.199
<v Speaker 1>can shave after the meeting. Dude, I'm glad you were

704
00:36:50.199 --> 00:36:52.800
<v Speaker 1>able to get an extra twenty minutes asleep. Now go

705
00:36:52.840 --> 00:36:55.119
<v Speaker 1>do your thing, and Pete would be sitting at his

706
00:36:55.159 --> 00:36:57.760
<v Speaker 1>desk and like, who should we piss off the day?

707
00:36:58.280 --> 00:37:00.800
<v Speaker 1>And basically we just kind of go through the rolodecks

708
00:37:00.840 --> 00:37:03.400
<v Speaker 1>and pick a name that we're gonna infuriate because we're

709
00:37:03.440 --> 00:37:05.159
<v Speaker 1>gonna ask for something, or we're gonna say we're not

710
00:37:05.199 --> 00:37:07.679
<v Speaker 1>gonna do something, or we're gonna say we are gonna

711
00:37:07.679 --> 00:37:10.440
<v Speaker 1>do something that somebody's not gonna like. You know, that

712
00:37:10.679 --> 00:37:16.440
<v Speaker 1>organization was built on one of Rumsfeldt's snowflakes, and for

713
00:37:16.800 --> 00:37:19.480
<v Speaker 1>you know, watchers listeners that don't know what that is,

714
00:37:19.519 --> 00:37:22.119
<v Speaker 1>they used to call his memos snowflakes because they.

715
00:37:22.000 --> 00:37:24.280
<v Speaker 3>Would just drift down from the office of the Secretary

716
00:37:24.280 --> 00:37:24.719
<v Speaker 3>of Defense.

717
00:37:25.079 --> 00:37:29.519
<v Speaker 1>We had his snowflake framed on the wall for years

718
00:37:30.119 --> 00:37:32.239
<v Speaker 1>in the G three at Marsac and all it said

719
00:37:32.360 --> 00:37:35.880
<v Speaker 1>was Marine Corps Forces Special Operations Command is designated a.

720
00:37:35.880 --> 00:37:37.719
<v Speaker 3>Special Operations Force period.

721
00:37:38.199 --> 00:37:43.239
<v Speaker 1>Donald J. Donald Rumsfeldt, and uh, I don't think he's

722
00:37:43.239 --> 00:37:44.760
<v Speaker 1>a J. I think the current Donald is a J.

723
00:37:44.960 --> 00:37:51.039
<v Speaker 1>But anyway, that was that now we're soft and neither

724
00:37:51.159 --> 00:37:54.000
<v Speaker 1>General Brown nor General Hagey. I don't think we're you know,

725
00:37:54.039 --> 00:37:57.559
<v Speaker 1>particularly enamored of the idea uh, and then there was

726
00:37:57.599 --> 00:37:59.920
<v Speaker 1>a whole crew of there were a lot of SF

727
00:38:00.079 --> 00:38:01.719
<v Speaker 1>guys who were not happy about it. There were a

728
00:38:01.760 --> 00:38:05.039
<v Speaker 1>lot of Marine graybeards who were not at all happy

729
00:38:05.079 --> 00:38:10.119
<v Speaker 1>about it, and so we were fighting perceptions, which again

730
00:38:10.239 --> 00:38:14.239
<v Speaker 1>for a guy who listened to punk rocker righting a

731
00:38:14.239 --> 00:38:18.239
<v Speaker 1>skateboard in Athens, Georgia, being the guy that people don't

732
00:38:18.320 --> 00:38:20.760
<v Speaker 1>like was it was punk rock at the time.

733
00:38:20.840 --> 00:38:22.480
<v Speaker 3>I mean as punk rock as the Marine Corps gets.

734
00:38:22.719 --> 00:38:28.400
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, you know, because we were we just figure out

735
00:38:28.400 --> 00:38:31.000
<v Speaker 1>what we needed to do, and we were learning so much.

736
00:38:31.719 --> 00:38:34.480
<v Speaker 1>That's another thing I love is a learning environment and

737
00:38:34.519 --> 00:38:38.559
<v Speaker 1>a learning organization. Well we were like, okay, what, I

738
00:38:38.599 --> 00:38:41.760
<v Speaker 1>don't know what I'm trying to Oh, perfect example. Uh,

739
00:38:42.039 --> 00:38:44.679
<v Speaker 1>there's an SF colonel that I know and we just

740
00:38:44.719 --> 00:38:47.440
<v Speaker 1>grew up in towns close to one Another's considerably older

741
00:38:47.440 --> 00:38:48.840
<v Speaker 1>than me, but I grown up here in his name.

742
00:38:49.119 --> 00:38:50.840
<v Speaker 1>So we're sitting in one of the seven AM staff

743
00:38:50.880 --> 00:38:56.400
<v Speaker 1>meetings and we were talking about, uh, you know, uncommissional warfare. Well,

744
00:38:56.400 --> 00:38:59.079
<v Speaker 1>none of us has ever done uncommisional warfare. This is

745
00:38:59.119 --> 00:39:01.079
<v Speaker 1>not one of our miss I was like, well, I

746
00:39:01.119 --> 00:39:04.400
<v Speaker 1>know SF guy over at Fort Bragg he's a retired colonel.

747
00:39:04.440 --> 00:39:06.199
<v Speaker 1>You want to should we go talk to and people

748
00:39:06.280 --> 00:39:08.599
<v Speaker 1>was like yeah, go. So we jumped on the truck

749
00:39:08.599 --> 00:39:11.000
<v Speaker 1>and we drive to Fayetteville and literally sat in this

750
00:39:11.000 --> 00:39:13.519
<v Speaker 1>guy's basement going through pubs and he's like, okay, take

751
00:39:13.519 --> 00:39:18.199
<v Speaker 1>your notebook, guy by with through? Okay, with through. It

752
00:39:18.199 --> 00:39:22.480
<v Speaker 1>sounds good. And that was, you know, kind of how

753
00:39:22.519 --> 00:39:25.920
<v Speaker 1>we were working through all this stuff. We da sure,

754
00:39:26.519 --> 00:39:30.360
<v Speaker 1>sr sure all day long, that kind of stuff. We

755
00:39:30.360 --> 00:39:34.239
<v Speaker 1>were super strong on. But I had Iraqis with me

756
00:39:34.320 --> 00:39:39.079
<v Speaker 1>on exactly one mission. Yeah, one mission in Al Qaim,

757
00:39:39.480 --> 00:39:43.639
<v Speaker 1>and in my very you know again, I keep calling,

758
00:39:43.920 --> 00:39:45.920
<v Speaker 1>keep calling myself immature, I was like, we're not doing

759
00:39:45.960 --> 00:39:50.559
<v Speaker 1>that again. It was unilateral marines kicking indoors at two

760
00:39:50.559 --> 00:39:53.719
<v Speaker 1>o'clock in the morning, m fours and flash bangs, and

761
00:39:53.760 --> 00:39:55.440
<v Speaker 1>I was living out my Gi Joe fantasy.

762
00:39:55.519 --> 00:39:58.119
<v Speaker 3>I now refer to that time as my Isis recruiting tour.

763
00:39:59.119 --> 00:40:04.760
<v Speaker 1>But it there was a lot to learn, a lot

764
00:40:04.800 --> 00:40:05.320
<v Speaker 1>to learn.

765
00:40:06.360 --> 00:40:10.559
<v Speaker 2>During this time frame. Because it sounds like Secretary of

766
00:40:10.599 --> 00:40:12.800
<v Speaker 2>Defense didn't leave you guys with a lot of guidance.

767
00:40:14.400 --> 00:40:17.360
<v Speaker 2>How did the idea itself of Marsak kind of develop?

768
00:40:17.519 --> 00:40:20.599
<v Speaker 2>Like you mentioned DASR. That makes sense because you guys

769
00:40:20.599 --> 00:40:23.760
<v Speaker 2>came from Fort Recon. But then you w I mean,

770
00:40:23.880 --> 00:40:25.840
<v Speaker 2>was there's this this idea that marines are going to

771
00:40:25.920 --> 00:40:27.320
<v Speaker 2>do unconventional warfare?

772
00:40:27.360 --> 00:40:30.639
<v Speaker 1>Now, so I think some of it. We had a

773
00:40:30.679 --> 00:40:33.480
<v Speaker 1>group of really smart guys. There was a guy that

774
00:40:33.519 --> 00:40:36.039
<v Speaker 1>I deployed with in that second Force deployment in four

775
00:40:36.119 --> 00:40:39.840
<v Speaker 1>oh five named Jason Shauble. Jason got shot up badly

776
00:40:39.960 --> 00:40:43.199
<v Speaker 1>enough that he got retired as a captain Silver Star recipient.

777
00:40:44.480 --> 00:40:46.119
<v Speaker 1>In fact, on his retirement day he got a bronze

778
00:40:46.119 --> 00:40:47.760
<v Speaker 1>star with a be a silver star, and I think

779
00:40:47.760 --> 00:40:50.199
<v Speaker 1>a legion of merit, you know, which for a captain

780
00:40:50.320 --> 00:40:51.199
<v Speaker 1>is his nuts.

781
00:40:52.480 --> 00:40:55.159
<v Speaker 3>He became the GS fourteen Deputy.

782
00:40:54.800 --> 00:40:58.280
<v Speaker 1>G three, which, if you know how GS fourteen's and

783
00:40:58.320 --> 00:41:01.679
<v Speaker 1>fifteens are hired, those are typically retired lieutenant colonels and colonels.

784
00:41:02.719 --> 00:41:04.760
<v Speaker 1>So there were a lot of grumpy faces when this

785
00:41:05.400 --> 00:41:10.519
<v Speaker 1>pretty junior captain who hasn't off the charts GT score

786
00:41:10.599 --> 00:41:14.199
<v Speaker 1>IQ score is suddenly the deputy G three. But so,

787
00:41:14.199 --> 00:41:17.159
<v Speaker 1>I mean, we're tearing through, like the OSS Manual's Assessment

788
00:41:17.199 --> 00:41:21.119
<v Speaker 1>of men, We're tearing through all those kind of pups

789
00:41:21.119 --> 00:41:24.000
<v Speaker 1>and I'll be arrogant enough to say we had a

790
00:41:25.480 --> 00:41:30.440
<v Speaker 1>hallway full of really smart men and women, and we

791
00:41:30.519 --> 00:41:32.639
<v Speaker 1>had a lot of free thinkers, and we had a

792
00:41:32.679 --> 00:41:35.559
<v Speaker 1>lot of people who really excited to be in on

793
00:41:35.599 --> 00:41:40.920
<v Speaker 1>the ground floor of building the Marine Corps. So calm

794
00:41:40.960 --> 00:41:43.559
<v Speaker 1>component and honored to get to do it. Like it

795
00:41:43.639 --> 00:41:46.280
<v Speaker 1>was a really heady time. Like I said, I didn't

796
00:41:46.280 --> 00:41:48.840
<v Speaker 1>have a kid, so it probably wasn't that big deal.

797
00:41:48.920 --> 00:41:50.400
<v Speaker 1>But there were plenty of times where it was like, yeah,

798
00:41:50.440 --> 00:41:52.480
<v Speaker 1>I slept four hours last night because I was here

799
00:41:52.800 --> 00:41:56.559
<v Speaker 1>till all hours reading doctrine or writing this plan or

800
00:41:56.559 --> 00:41:59.719
<v Speaker 1>writing this proposal, you know, and we're fighting. We're fighting

801
00:41:59.800 --> 00:42:02.400
<v Speaker 1>use sock to get them to accept us. In some ways,

802
00:42:02.840 --> 00:42:07.559
<v Speaker 1>we're fighting just old doctrine. We're fighting the Marine Corps.

803
00:42:08.639 --> 00:42:11.400
<v Speaker 1>Everybody's interested in what you're doing because you're the new

804
00:42:11.599 --> 00:42:12.480
<v Speaker 1>kid on the block.

805
00:42:13.239 --> 00:42:15.320
<v Speaker 3>It was a it was a fabulous experience.

806
00:42:16.679 --> 00:42:18.760
<v Speaker 2>When you look back on that period of your career

807
00:42:20.159 --> 00:42:22.039
<v Speaker 2>or what, what are like the lessons learned, Like if

808
00:42:22.039 --> 00:42:24.559
<v Speaker 2>you were to give some advice to some guys that

809
00:42:24.599 --> 00:42:27.280
<v Speaker 2>are standing up a new unit today, what would be

810
00:42:27.360 --> 00:42:30.119
<v Speaker 2>some of the big considerations that you wish you had

811
00:42:30.159 --> 00:42:31.840
<v Speaker 2>known beforehand going into.

812
00:42:31.639 --> 00:42:36.719
<v Speaker 1>It, no know the reality, know the doctrine. People say,

813
00:42:36.760 --> 00:42:41.519
<v Speaker 1>doctrine is a starting point for your deviation, right, you cannot.

814
00:42:41.920 --> 00:42:44.440
<v Speaker 1>You've got to be smarter than the guys who already

815
00:42:44.639 --> 00:42:47.079
<v Speaker 1>excuse me, you may not be smarter. That's a matter

816
00:42:47.159 --> 00:42:51.360
<v Speaker 1>of genetics. You've got better educated, there's one of the dogs. Sorry,

817
00:42:52.119 --> 00:42:54.800
<v Speaker 1>you got to be better educated than the folks who

818
00:42:54.800 --> 00:42:56.599
<v Speaker 1>may have been doing this for a long time, who

819
00:42:56.639 --> 00:43:00.639
<v Speaker 1>may have gotten complacent. And so you walk into a

820
00:43:00.719 --> 00:43:02.159
<v Speaker 1>room with folks and they're like, oh, here come the

821
00:43:02.480 --> 00:43:03.239
<v Speaker 1>dumb Marines.

822
00:43:05.199 --> 00:43:07.480
<v Speaker 3>And turns out that the dumb marines had done a

823
00:43:07.519 --> 00:43:07.960
<v Speaker 3>whole lot.

824
00:43:07.880 --> 00:43:09.880
<v Speaker 1>Of research, done a whole lot of talking to people,

825
00:43:10.440 --> 00:43:13.079
<v Speaker 1>had done a whole lot of reading of history, and

826
00:43:13.159 --> 00:43:15.119
<v Speaker 1>actually did know some of the stuff we were talking about,

827
00:43:15.239 --> 00:43:17.440
<v Speaker 1>or at least knew it well enough to ask questions.

828
00:43:17.880 --> 00:43:22.000
<v Speaker 3>And so it's a lot of work to be well educated.

829
00:43:22.960 --> 00:43:25.199
<v Speaker 1>And when you walk into, you know, a room with

830
00:43:25.400 --> 00:43:27.440
<v Speaker 1>folks are like, hey, man, I've been doing this for

831
00:43:27.480 --> 00:43:31.039
<v Speaker 1>twenty five years and you're fifteen years into your career

832
00:43:31.079 --> 00:43:33.840
<v Speaker 1>and you just got tasked to be me Like, good

833
00:43:33.920 --> 00:43:36.239
<v Speaker 1>luck with that sport. You know? That was sometimes the adage.

834
00:43:36.320 --> 00:43:38.159
<v Speaker 1>There were also guys who were very much like, hey,

835
00:43:38.199 --> 00:43:39.840
<v Speaker 1>come on in more than marry or whatever you need,

836
00:43:39.880 --> 00:43:41.760
<v Speaker 1>what do you want to learn? And so in that sense,

837
00:43:41.960 --> 00:43:43.960
<v Speaker 1>the flip side of me saying you need to be

838
00:43:43.960 --> 00:43:46.639
<v Speaker 1>better educated than the experts is you also need to

839
00:43:46.639 --> 00:43:49.679
<v Speaker 1>know you don't actually know anything, So you need to

840
00:43:49.719 --> 00:43:53.280
<v Speaker 1>be real ready to walk in and listen and ask questions.

841
00:43:53.280 --> 00:43:56.360
<v Speaker 1>And if you lead with questions, the experts will often

842
00:43:56.400 --> 00:43:59.320
<v Speaker 1>be willing then to listen, and both of you get

843
00:43:59.320 --> 00:44:03.400
<v Speaker 1>to a place where your preparation meets with their expertise

844
00:44:03.519 --> 00:44:07.119
<v Speaker 1>in a way that is productive for everyone. So I

845
00:44:07.199 --> 00:44:08.719
<v Speaker 1>think that's a main one.

846
00:44:08.840 --> 00:44:13.119
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I mean, I think people enjoy answering questions about

847
00:44:13.159 --> 00:44:15.639
<v Speaker 2>a career field or a job field that they feel

848
00:44:15.639 --> 00:44:16.440
<v Speaker 2>they're very good at.

849
00:44:19.119 --> 00:44:23.400
<v Speaker 1>Absolutely, And you know, if you have lived up to

850
00:44:23.519 --> 00:44:27.000
<v Speaker 1>the charge to be as well or better educated, because

851
00:44:27.000 --> 00:44:30.320
<v Speaker 1>you can't be as experienced, you need to keep that

852
00:44:30.400 --> 00:44:32.320
<v Speaker 1>in your back pocket. You don't need to tell anybody

853
00:44:32.360 --> 00:44:36.800
<v Speaker 1>about it. Again, lead with questions because if you let

854
00:44:36.840 --> 00:44:39.039
<v Speaker 1>experts be experts, and this is as I said earlier,

855
00:44:39.079 --> 00:44:41.960
<v Speaker 1>I'm not an expert in anything but experts. Sometimes in

856
00:44:42.000 --> 00:44:45.280
<v Speaker 1>my career I played that up. I think back, I

857
00:44:45.400 --> 00:44:48.400
<v Speaker 1>was a unit XO at year twenty of my career.

858
00:44:48.400 --> 00:44:50.079
<v Speaker 1>I'd managed to avoid it all the way. And now

859
00:44:50.079 --> 00:44:53.280
<v Speaker 1>I'm a six is XO and I'm worried about things

860
00:44:53.320 --> 00:44:57.199
<v Speaker 1>like truck maintenance. And I don't care about truck maintenance.

861
00:44:57.199 --> 00:45:00.880
<v Speaker 1>I mean not much, certainly not passionate about it. But

862
00:45:00.920 --> 00:45:02.920
<v Speaker 1>there were marines who did that kind of work and

863
00:45:02.960 --> 00:45:05.800
<v Speaker 1>they were now you know, the marines that I'm dealing with.

864
00:45:05.880 --> 00:45:07.960
<v Speaker 1>And so I would go to these meetings and I

865
00:45:08.119 --> 00:45:11.360
<v Speaker 1>was ignorant, but I would absolutely play up my ignorance

866
00:45:11.400 --> 00:45:14.199
<v Speaker 1>in a staff meeting full of like E three's, E four's,

867
00:45:14.280 --> 00:45:17.760
<v Speaker 1>E fives, and I would, you know, really give try

868
00:45:17.800 --> 00:45:19.519
<v Speaker 1>to give them a chance to be the experts and

869
00:45:19.519 --> 00:45:22.519
<v Speaker 1>to educate me. And sometimes I'd intentionally ask really dumb

870
00:45:22.639 --> 00:45:25.199
<v Speaker 1>questions so that they could laugh at me, because it

871
00:45:25.320 --> 00:45:28.239
<v Speaker 1>just changed that dynamic a little bit. But you know,

872
00:45:29.000 --> 00:45:32.079
<v Speaker 1>when we had the Marine Corps, I don't know, there's

873
00:45:32.119 --> 00:45:33.840
<v Speaker 1>all these inspections right that the Marine Corps does on

874
00:45:33.920 --> 00:45:37.360
<v Speaker 1>logistics or admin or whatever, and I was like, what's in?

875
00:45:37.719 --> 00:45:40.400
<v Speaker 1>What's in? How do you get one hundred on this inspection? Well,

876
00:45:40.440 --> 00:45:43.280
<v Speaker 1>so there's not one hundred. It's like, you know, I

877
00:45:43.320 --> 00:45:45.199
<v Speaker 1>don't remember what the scoring system was. I was like, okay,

878
00:45:45.199 --> 00:45:47.280
<v Speaker 1>but whatever in the scoring system is the closest thing

879
00:45:47.559 --> 00:45:48.239
<v Speaker 1>to one hundred.

880
00:45:49.840 --> 00:45:52.880
<v Speaker 3>It's what I want. How do we get it? And

881
00:45:52.920 --> 00:45:55.199
<v Speaker 3>I let this master sergeant who's advising me be in

882
00:45:55.320 --> 00:45:55.880
<v Speaker 3>charge of that.

883
00:45:56.280 --> 00:45:59.199
<v Speaker 1>You tell me how we're going to get what I want,

884
00:45:59.320 --> 00:46:01.000
<v Speaker 1>and then you tell me what you need me to

885
00:46:01.039 --> 00:46:03.239
<v Speaker 1>do to assist you to make that happen, because you're

886
00:46:03.239 --> 00:46:04.920
<v Speaker 1>the expert. I didn't even know a lot of the word.

887
00:46:04.920 --> 00:46:06.280
<v Speaker 1>He would throw words out of it. I don't know

888
00:46:06.320 --> 00:46:08.599
<v Speaker 1>what that means, and I would say it in front

889
00:46:08.599 --> 00:46:10.119
<v Speaker 1>of the E three's and they all got a giggle

890
00:46:10.199 --> 00:46:12.360
<v Speaker 1>out of it, but they also see I will and learn,

891
00:46:12.880 --> 00:46:14.400
<v Speaker 1>and then like it was kind of a joke. But

892
00:46:14.400 --> 00:46:16.280
<v Speaker 1>I'm like, hey, if you guys get a ninety five

893
00:46:16.360 --> 00:46:18.480
<v Speaker 1>or veteran this exam, everybody's having a pizza party.

894
00:46:18.719 --> 00:46:20.000
<v Speaker 3>And I realize a pizza party is.

895
00:46:20.000 --> 00:46:22.079
<v Speaker 1>Like a meme now on LinkedIn, you know, and it

896
00:46:22.079 --> 00:46:24.320
<v Speaker 1>should be right people do that instead of giving somebody

897
00:46:24.360 --> 00:46:27.320
<v Speaker 1>a bonus. But one, you can't pay bonus, and two

898
00:46:27.360 --> 00:46:29.480
<v Speaker 1>it was just a kind of a joke in those

899
00:46:29.519 --> 00:46:33.079
<v Speaker 1>meetings all the time, but I will say about those Marines.

900
00:46:33.119 --> 00:46:36.599
<v Speaker 1>Six months later we had a pizza party because they

901
00:46:36.599 --> 00:46:40.159
<v Speaker 1>went to work, and that that's another thing I would

902
00:46:40.199 --> 00:46:42.880
<v Speaker 1>say is true. If you're building an organization, you know,

903
00:46:43.440 --> 00:46:45.960
<v Speaker 1>know what you don't know, figure out who does know it,

904
00:46:46.079 --> 00:46:48.239
<v Speaker 1>and let that person be the expert.

905
00:46:49.639 --> 00:46:52.119
<v Speaker 2>And after having this it sounds like a pretty you

906
00:46:52.119 --> 00:46:54.639
<v Speaker 2>had a good time. Actually as a staff officer in

907
00:46:54.719 --> 00:46:57.760
<v Speaker 2>mar sok. How did the Jaysck assignment come up?

908
00:47:01.360 --> 00:47:04.280
<v Speaker 1>My buddy Ivan Ingram, who I know you've had on here,

909
00:47:05.039 --> 00:47:08.719
<v Speaker 1>I haven't actually had been approached about doing that job

910
00:47:09.599 --> 00:47:16.400
<v Speaker 1>and by the marine that was in it then, and

911
00:47:16.440 --> 00:47:19.079
<v Speaker 1>he then got selected for command of Staff College. And

912
00:47:19.360 --> 00:47:22.320
<v Speaker 1>you don't turn down residential command of Staff College. It's

913
00:47:22.360 --> 00:47:25.119
<v Speaker 1>a top ten percent assignment. It's a good sign for

914
00:47:25.159 --> 00:47:27.679
<v Speaker 1>your career. So Ivan's off to command of Staff and

915
00:47:27.679 --> 00:47:30.000
<v Speaker 1>the guy said, well, do you know anybody else who

916
00:47:30.719 --> 00:47:32.360
<v Speaker 1>you would recommend to do it? And I was like, yep,

917
00:47:32.400 --> 00:47:35.599
<v Speaker 1>you're sitting right next to me, and I wanted it

918
00:47:35.599 --> 00:47:38.360
<v Speaker 1>for a couple of reasons. My wife was actually the

919
00:47:38.840 --> 00:47:41.239
<v Speaker 1>this is always funny. My wife was the lead attorney

920
00:47:41.280 --> 00:47:46.360
<v Speaker 1>for the ACLU of North Carolina in Raleigh, and so

921
00:47:46.440 --> 00:47:51.159
<v Speaker 1>we lived about fifty miles away from Bragg and like

922
00:47:51.199 --> 00:47:54.280
<v Speaker 1>one hundred and twelve miles away from Le June. And

923
00:47:54.320 --> 00:47:56.519
<v Speaker 1>then I had a little condo I crashed during the week,

924
00:47:58.079 --> 00:47:59.639
<v Speaker 1>and so I wanted to move back. I wanted to

925
00:47:59.679 --> 00:48:02.599
<v Speaker 1>live with and so an assignment at Fort Bragg was

926
00:48:02.639 --> 00:48:05.960
<v Speaker 1>really goal one because I could, you know, it was

927
00:48:06.039 --> 00:48:10.360
<v Speaker 1>reasonable commute, And then I really did want to go

928
00:48:10.400 --> 00:48:14.199
<v Speaker 1>to Jaysack. I just wanted to see that, have that experience,

929
00:48:14.280 --> 00:48:16.320
<v Speaker 1>and learn those things, because by now I feel like

930
00:48:16.639 --> 00:48:20.719
<v Speaker 1>I had kind of turned as a professional when I

931
00:48:20.800 --> 00:48:23.920
<v Speaker 1>finally acknowledged and Marine Corps did not exist to feed

932
00:48:23.960 --> 00:48:27.000
<v Speaker 1>my adventure sports habit or to give me something to

933
00:48:27.199 --> 00:48:31.480
<v Speaker 1>write about someday. It exists to support the national security

934
00:48:31.639 --> 00:48:34.840
<v Speaker 1>ends and means of the United States of America, and

935
00:48:35.000 --> 00:48:39.119
<v Speaker 1>Worth Parker's particular feelings about actual assignments are completely immaterial

936
00:48:39.440 --> 00:48:42.679
<v Speaker 1>within that construct. But I was blessed to make the

937
00:48:42.760 --> 00:48:45.440
<v Speaker 1>Jaysock thing happen, and I went over and interviewed over

938
00:48:45.480 --> 00:48:50.320
<v Speaker 1>there and got selected for that, and I really did

939
00:48:50.360 --> 00:48:52.920
<v Speaker 1>have a wonderful three years and make some really good

940
00:48:52.920 --> 00:48:55.559
<v Speaker 1>friends who you know, I'm still in contact with now.

941
00:48:56.320 --> 00:48:59.440
<v Speaker 2>Any lessons learned from that experience that you brought with

942
00:48:59.480 --> 00:49:03.400
<v Speaker 2>you back to the Marine Corps countless.

943
00:49:04.679 --> 00:49:08.400
<v Speaker 1>I got to watch the Ranger Regiment in action, and

944
00:49:08.480 --> 00:49:12.639
<v Speaker 1>I am an unabashed fan of the seventy fifth Ranger

945
00:49:12.719 --> 00:49:16.760
<v Speaker 1>Regiment and Rangers in general. And I've worked with, you know,

946
00:49:18.239 --> 00:49:21.360
<v Speaker 1>all of the folks in that constellation and got to

947
00:49:21.440 --> 00:49:22.639
<v Speaker 1>watch a ton of people work.

948
00:49:22.679 --> 00:49:24.840
<v Speaker 3>And I read somebody saying the other day, and I don't.

949
00:49:24.719 --> 00:49:27.800
<v Speaker 1>Remember who it was, friend of mine, but my memory

950
00:49:27.800 --> 00:49:30.199
<v Speaker 1>fails me these days, saying, you want to know the

951
00:49:30.239 --> 00:49:33.119
<v Speaker 1>best military formation in the US government or in the

952
00:49:33.159 --> 00:49:37.360
<v Speaker 1>Department of War. Now, it is the seventy fifth Ranger Regiment.

953
00:49:37.440 --> 00:49:40.519
<v Speaker 1>There is no question, hands down that it is uniformly

954
00:49:40.519 --> 00:49:44.079
<v Speaker 1>the finest. And for years I've been a guy eighth Marines,

955
00:49:44.480 --> 00:49:47.639
<v Speaker 1>seventy fifth Ranger Regiment. There's no difference. Man, It's a

956
00:49:47.920 --> 00:49:50.679
<v Speaker 1>marine infantry regiments as good as well. Maybe it could

957
00:49:50.679 --> 00:49:53.679
<v Speaker 1>be maybe if it were resourced that way. But a

958
00:49:53.719 --> 00:49:55.559
<v Speaker 1>friend of mine who had come from Jaysck that I

959
00:49:55.599 --> 00:49:59.679
<v Speaker 1>worked for in the G three at Marsack, named Chris Naylor,

960
00:50:00.599 --> 00:50:02.559
<v Speaker 1>Chris pose that to me one day. He's like, where

961
00:50:02.559 --> 00:50:04.320
<v Speaker 1>do you think of Marine infantry regiments as good as

962
00:50:04.320 --> 00:50:08.599
<v Speaker 1>the Rangers. And I was like, absolutely, of course. And

963
00:50:08.639 --> 00:50:11.800
<v Speaker 1>he's like, Okay, if we go down to first Battalion,

964
00:50:11.800 --> 00:50:14.480
<v Speaker 1>eighth Marines right now, does every Marine have a set

965
00:50:14.480 --> 00:50:17.280
<v Speaker 1>of nods? No? Probably the fire team leaders, in the

966
00:50:17.280 --> 00:50:21.840
<v Speaker 1>squad leaders, Okay, they're not night capable. Everybody in the

967
00:50:21.840 --> 00:50:24.960
<v Speaker 1>eighty seconds got one, and certainly everybody in the seventy

968
00:50:24.960 --> 00:50:27.840
<v Speaker 1>fifth got a pair. That that alone. I mean, when

969
00:50:27.880 --> 00:50:33.159
<v Speaker 1>you start pinging dollars to doughnuts and training capabilities, you

970
00:50:33.320 --> 00:50:35.519
<v Speaker 1>learn that, you know, it's not the Civil War.

971
00:50:35.400 --> 00:50:39.519
<v Speaker 5>Argument one rabble can whip thirteen Yankees with a cornstalk.

972
00:50:39.239 --> 00:50:41.599
<v Speaker 3>You know, I mean, that's the equivalent argument we would

973
00:50:41.599 --> 00:50:42.199
<v Speaker 3>have about.

974
00:50:42.039 --> 00:50:45.519
<v Speaker 5>One marine can whip five Rangers. Why could you win

975
00:50:45.559 --> 00:50:49.039
<v Speaker 5>to boot camp for thirteen months or thirteen weeks. But

976
00:50:50.119 --> 00:50:52.679
<v Speaker 5>when you start becoming a pro and you realize that

977
00:50:52.719 --> 00:50:54.400
<v Speaker 5>your job is to do what the machine needs you

978
00:50:54.440 --> 00:50:57.159
<v Speaker 5>to do and do it as well as humanly possible,

979
00:50:58.360 --> 00:50:59.239
<v Speaker 5>then I think.

980
00:50:59.039 --> 00:51:02.440
<v Speaker 1>You're you're really where you need to be. And I

981
00:51:02.519 --> 00:51:07.239
<v Speaker 1>went to Jaysok, and I watched a place where everyone

982
00:51:07.880 --> 00:51:10.800
<v Speaker 1>does what they're supposed to do as well as humanly possible.

983
00:51:12.199 --> 00:51:15.480
<v Speaker 1>And I really really really enjoyed my time there, But

984
00:51:15.519 --> 00:51:17.440
<v Speaker 1>the way I got there is because I even made

985
00:51:17.480 --> 00:51:17.880
<v Speaker 1>it happen.

986
00:51:19.400 --> 00:51:22.000
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, there's something to be said for that that. You know,

987
00:51:22.199 --> 00:51:24.960
<v Speaker 2>people love to make these comparisons between this unit and

988
00:51:25.000 --> 00:51:28.480
<v Speaker 2>that unit, and like Force Recon wasn't technically a special

989
00:51:28.559 --> 00:51:31.000
<v Speaker 2>ops unit, But that's not a ding on the guys,

990
00:51:31.039 --> 00:51:34.760
<v Speaker 2>like they're terrific marines. It's just they weren't resourced the

991
00:51:34.800 --> 00:51:37.599
<v Speaker 2>way you talk about.

992
00:51:36.559 --> 00:51:39.800
<v Speaker 1>The organized under special If I'm one hundred percent honest

993
00:51:39.800 --> 00:51:42.159
<v Speaker 1>to you, I felt far more elite as a platoon

994
00:51:42.159 --> 00:51:44.960
<v Speaker 1>commander at Second Force or Confissence Company than I did

995
00:51:45.400 --> 00:51:49.280
<v Speaker 1>in any of my SoC ON formations. Yeah. I think

996
00:51:49.320 --> 00:51:50.760
<v Speaker 1>some of that is just you know, size of the

997
00:51:50.880 --> 00:51:55.079
<v Speaker 1>organization and maybe the I don't know what I do

998
00:51:55.159 --> 00:51:56.800
<v Speaker 1>know what the right word is, but TBI is stealing

999
00:51:56.840 --> 00:51:59.920
<v Speaker 1>it from me right this minute. We'll call it cool fact,

1000
00:52:00.119 --> 00:52:02.400
<v Speaker 1>and I'll be embarrassed later by saying it. But you know,

1001
00:52:02.440 --> 00:52:05.000
<v Speaker 1>being a force free con guy was cool. Yeah, yeah,

1002
00:52:05.119 --> 00:52:07.960
<v Speaker 1>kind of. That was an apex kind of assignment and

1003
00:52:08.079 --> 00:52:11.320
<v Speaker 1>so that felt awesome. And when you walked into the

1004
00:52:11.360 --> 00:52:13.440
<v Speaker 1>chow haul at al Con, everybody knew you were the

1005
00:52:13.440 --> 00:52:15.719
<v Speaker 1>forced guys. Everybody knew you were the guys who were

1006
00:52:15.760 --> 00:52:19.920
<v Speaker 1>out hooking a jab in every night. But again, if

1007
00:52:19.920 --> 00:52:21.760
<v Speaker 1>you're a pro, you also were able to look at

1008
00:52:21.760 --> 00:52:23.199
<v Speaker 1>that and go, yeah, we were hooking a jab and

1009
00:52:23.239 --> 00:52:26.280
<v Speaker 1>every night. But you guys dropping around in the broad

1010
00:52:26.320 --> 00:52:28.239
<v Speaker 1>daylight waiting to eat at one five five or one

1011
00:52:28.280 --> 00:52:28.719
<v Speaker 1>five two.

1012
00:52:29.039 --> 00:52:33.079
<v Speaker 3>Right, there's no distinction. But to my mind between you.

1013
00:52:33.039 --> 00:52:37.440
<v Speaker 1>Who's got more heart, more mojo, more guts, more honor?

1014
00:52:37.599 --> 00:52:40.679
<v Speaker 1>I mean picked the thing. You know, we fought between

1015
00:52:40.960 --> 00:52:43.559
<v Speaker 1>about eleven o'clock at night and five am, and we

1016
00:52:43.599 --> 00:52:45.559
<v Speaker 1>did that for a very specific reason. It's because the

1017
00:52:45.559 --> 00:52:50.480
<v Speaker 1>threat was lower where and because our targets were asleep

1018
00:52:50.480 --> 00:52:52.280
<v Speaker 1>in bed and it's easier to snatch them out of bed.

1019
00:52:52.320 --> 00:52:57.199
<v Speaker 1>But I just have so much love and appreciation for

1020
00:52:57.320 --> 00:53:02.000
<v Speaker 1>the eleven, Bravo, the three eleven and associated in the wests.

1021
00:53:02.280 --> 00:53:05.239
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I think a lot of people also don't appreciate

1022
00:53:05.360 --> 00:53:09.320
<v Speaker 2>the you know, having a strategic global lift capability and

1023
00:53:09.400 --> 00:53:13.239
<v Speaker 2>having special ops aviation units makes a huge difference.

1024
00:53:13.400 --> 00:53:15.800
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I mean, that's another thing. I remember one of

1025
00:53:15.840 --> 00:53:18.079
<v Speaker 1>the generals when I was at Jaysak was saying, like,

1026
00:53:19.320 --> 00:53:21.000
<v Speaker 1>you know, it's It's one thing to be in the

1027
00:53:21.000 --> 00:53:23.480
<v Speaker 1>one seventy third out in a fob on top of

1028
00:53:23.519 --> 00:53:27.039
<v Speaker 1>a hill and to fight from that or a cop

1029
00:53:27.280 --> 00:53:32.559
<v Speaker 1>right problem. It's another thing to be a formation in

1030
00:53:32.679 --> 00:53:36.519
<v Speaker 1>a task force where you have AGE sixty four's overhead

1031
00:53:36.559 --> 00:53:39.960
<v Speaker 1>and then there's F eighteen's overhead that or see one

1032
00:53:40.039 --> 00:53:43.119
<v Speaker 1>AC one thirties, and then there's B one bravos, and

1033
00:53:43.159 --> 00:53:46.840
<v Speaker 1>then there's m Q nine's and then and then and then,

1034
00:53:47.000 --> 00:53:49.199
<v Speaker 1>and they're just stacked to the heavens in support of you.

1035
00:53:49.599 --> 00:53:51.320
<v Speaker 3>I went out as a force freet compluatoon.

1036
00:53:51.400 --> 00:53:57.559
<v Speaker 1>I usually had either a section of.

1037
00:53:55.800 --> 00:53:58.239
<v Speaker 3>A Hui and a mixed section of Huy and cobra

1038
00:53:59.079 --> 00:53:59.800
<v Speaker 3>and supporting me.

1039
00:54:00.000 --> 00:54:02.400
<v Speaker 1>Sometimes I had an Fateen or an Ava B section

1040
00:54:02.519 --> 00:54:04.800
<v Speaker 1>flying and supported me. And they were usually just like

1041
00:54:04.880 --> 00:54:07.760
<v Speaker 1>flickering with lightning pods to help give me itg to

1042
00:54:07.800 --> 00:54:12.360
<v Speaker 1>targets and that sort of thing. But they were there again.

1043
00:54:12.719 --> 00:54:15.239
<v Speaker 1>Second Lieutenant Empty Frats and the squad that he happens

1044
00:54:15.280 --> 00:54:17.360
<v Speaker 1>to be rolling with that day in a homby, and

1045
00:54:17.400 --> 00:54:19.320
<v Speaker 1>in two thousand and four they were the same hummers.

1046
00:54:19.440 --> 00:54:23.760
<v Speaker 1>I mean, I've cried tears a number of times because

1047
00:54:23.800 --> 00:54:27.280
<v Speaker 1>when I got there there were these mobile assault platoons

1048
00:54:27.320 --> 00:54:30.920
<v Speaker 1>running around, and they really just were reorganized counter armor

1049
00:54:30.960 --> 00:54:36.840
<v Speaker 1>assault team platoons in fiberglass backed hombies, and those were

1050
00:54:36.840 --> 00:54:38.320
<v Speaker 1>the weapons we were going to fight in the fold

1051
00:54:38.320 --> 00:54:40.920
<v Speaker 1>the gap with with toes and you know, the sanded

1052
00:54:41.000 --> 00:54:46.000
<v Speaker 1>fiberglass back. And I can remember talking to one of

1053
00:54:46.039 --> 00:54:47.920
<v Speaker 1>those marines after they'd gotten back from a mission. They

1054
00:54:47.920 --> 00:54:51.679
<v Speaker 1>had rolled out in response a QRF response to another

1055
00:54:51.800 --> 00:54:56.199
<v Speaker 1>vehicle that had hit a landmine and a marine had

1056
00:54:56.239 --> 00:55:00.320
<v Speaker 1>lost his leg. The QRF rolled out, they hit a

1057
00:55:00.400 --> 00:55:03.719
<v Speaker 1>land mine, another marine lost his leg. I drove round

1058
00:55:03.760 --> 00:55:07.840
<v Speaker 1>in unarmored vehicles. Except for the fact that a guy

1059
00:55:07.880 --> 00:55:09.400
<v Speaker 1>and I call him a real life hero, and he

1060
00:55:09.440 --> 00:55:12.000
<v Speaker 1>did get an award with a combat V on it,

1061
00:55:12.519 --> 00:55:14.960
<v Speaker 1>who was our motor tea chief at Second Force. And

1062
00:55:15.000 --> 00:55:17.039
<v Speaker 1>I think that guy stayed up for like four straight

1063
00:55:17.119 --> 00:55:19.519
<v Speaker 1>days cutting up that mac kid armor with an a settling

1064
00:55:19.599 --> 00:55:23.000
<v Speaker 1>torch and welding it onto the underside of our humbies Wow,

1065
00:55:23.239 --> 00:55:26.440
<v Speaker 1>which was the only armor we had. And that guy

1066
00:55:27.239 --> 00:55:32.039
<v Speaker 1>cut armor until every tip burned out on those cutters.

1067
00:55:32.440 --> 00:55:35.440
<v Speaker 1>And then the guy who was the orthopedist in the

1068
00:55:35.480 --> 00:55:38.239
<v Speaker 1>mass unit that was right outside my doorway got on

1069
00:55:38.280 --> 00:55:40.239
<v Speaker 1>the phone. He was a reservist, got on the phone,

1070
00:55:40.280 --> 00:55:42.880
<v Speaker 1>called home to Oregon, woke somebody up and was like, hey,

1071
00:55:42.920 --> 00:55:46.119
<v Speaker 1>here's my credit card number. Go to the ACE Hardware

1072
00:55:46.679 --> 00:55:49.559
<v Speaker 1>and by every cutting torch head you can get and

1073
00:55:49.559 --> 00:55:50.639
<v Speaker 1>fedexit to me here.

1074
00:55:50.719 --> 00:55:54.400
<v Speaker 3>Now, that guy is what made it happen, you know,

1075
00:55:55.000 --> 00:55:55.760
<v Speaker 3>that sort of.

1076
00:55:55.719 --> 00:55:57.440
<v Speaker 1>Stuff, going back kind of like to my showing up

1077
00:55:57.440 --> 00:56:00.519
<v Speaker 1>at Campbell jun and having no training. That kind of

1078
00:56:00.519 --> 00:56:02.679
<v Speaker 1>stuff is what I feel like those stories of Americans

1079
00:56:02.800 --> 00:56:05.679
<v Speaker 1>need to understand. Yeah, because your tax dollars go to

1080
00:56:05.719 --> 00:56:07.480
<v Speaker 1>make sure that you don't have that problem.

1081
00:56:08.239 --> 00:56:11.920
<v Speaker 3>We're on a much softer note. I didn't have pillows

1082
00:56:11.960 --> 00:56:12.719
<v Speaker 3>for my marines.

1083
00:56:12.719 --> 00:56:16.119
<v Speaker 1>Like, we're all just sleeping on these crappy Jordanian racks

1084
00:56:16.159 --> 00:56:18.000
<v Speaker 1>that somebody bought in mass.

1085
00:56:17.719 --> 00:56:20.039
<v Speaker 3>And that bent within two nights of sleeping on them.

1086
00:56:20.039 --> 00:56:20.800
<v Speaker 3>So you're like sleeping in.

1087
00:56:20.760 --> 00:56:24.960
<v Speaker 1>A taco And I hit my mom up and I

1088
00:56:25.000 --> 00:56:26.960
<v Speaker 1>was like, Mom, I don't we don't have pillows. So

1089
00:56:27.000 --> 00:56:29.239
<v Speaker 1>she went on a buying spree and boxes start showing

1090
00:56:29.320 --> 00:56:34.719
<v Speaker 1>up with applatoons, pillows. Yeah, that kind of stuff.

1091
00:56:34.840 --> 00:56:35.519
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I think I.

1092
00:56:35.440 --> 00:56:38.760
<v Speaker 1>Guess the lesson learned there is think through resourcing before

1093
00:56:38.800 --> 00:56:39.039
<v Speaker 1>you go.

1094
00:56:39.480 --> 00:56:43.199
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, things come together because somebody cared enough to make

1095
00:56:43.239 --> 00:56:44.280
<v Speaker 2>it come together, right.

1096
00:56:44.920 --> 00:56:45.920
<v Speaker 1>Yeah.

1097
00:56:46.400 --> 00:56:50.159
<v Speaker 2>And from there you went to a small office in

1098
00:56:50.199 --> 00:56:53.440
<v Speaker 2>the Pentagon, a SOCOM office, And I didn't know anything

1099
00:56:53.440 --> 00:56:56.119
<v Speaker 2>about this, I don't think until we spoke about it earlier.

1100
00:56:56.320 --> 00:56:57.760
<v Speaker 2>Could you tell us about that assignment?

1101
00:56:58.559 --> 00:57:00.880
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, I'm happy as you there were in revening assignments.

1102
00:57:00.880 --> 00:57:03.039
<v Speaker 1>I came back from Jaysack and I was the G

1103
00:57:03.159 --> 00:57:06.320
<v Speaker 1>three X at Marsak, and then I was the sot

1104
00:57:06.559 --> 00:57:09.519
<v Speaker 1>or I deployed. I deployed after that G three X tour,

1105
00:57:10.320 --> 00:57:13.840
<v Speaker 1>and I was the J five at c Jisota, Afghanistan's

1106
00:57:13.920 --> 00:57:18.039
<v Speaker 1>right came back. I was the XO at the Marine

1107
00:57:18.079 --> 00:57:21.000
<v Speaker 1>Raider Training Center for two years, which actually was a blast.

1108
00:57:22.320 --> 00:57:26.920
<v Speaker 1>And then I went up to excuse me to DC

1109
00:57:27.119 --> 00:57:29.159
<v Speaker 1>and you know, this is again a lesson learned, right.

1110
00:57:30.199 --> 00:57:33.000
<v Speaker 1>I had been called by some guys in Tampa in

1111
00:57:33.039 --> 00:57:36.360
<v Speaker 1>an office down there at SOCOM headquarters, and they said, hey,

1112
00:57:36.360 --> 00:57:37.960
<v Speaker 1>do you want to come work on this program with

1113
00:57:38.039 --> 00:57:40.360
<v Speaker 1>us down here? And I was like absolutely, because I'm

1114
00:57:40.360 --> 00:57:42.239
<v Speaker 1>pretty sure this is going to be my last or

1115
00:57:42.320 --> 00:57:44.599
<v Speaker 1>my second to last job. I'm never going to get

1116
00:57:44.639 --> 00:57:47.000
<v Speaker 1>promoted past lieutenant colonel. I was really lucky to be

1117
00:57:47.079 --> 00:57:49.880
<v Speaker 1>a lieutenant colonel. But with eight years break in service,

1118
00:57:49.960 --> 00:57:51.280
<v Speaker 1>I am never going to be a colonel in the

1119
00:57:51.280 --> 00:57:53.000
<v Speaker 1>Marine Corps. So I need to start thinking about the

1120
00:57:53.039 --> 00:57:56.559
<v Speaker 1>next phase of life. So I was all about this

1121
00:57:56.599 --> 00:57:59.360
<v Speaker 1>gig down in Tampa, and then the deputy commander, who

1122
00:57:59.400 --> 00:58:00.960
<v Speaker 1>is a friend of mine of this day, calls me.

1123
00:58:00.960 --> 00:58:02.960
<v Speaker 1>He's like, hey, brother, come up my office. So I

1124
00:58:03.039 --> 00:58:05.119
<v Speaker 1>go up there and he's like, and I know you

1125
00:58:05.159 --> 00:58:06.719
<v Speaker 1>want to go to that thing in Tampa. I was like, yeah,

1126
00:58:06.760 --> 00:58:09.559
<v Speaker 1>I really do. And you know, my wife's cool with Tampa.

1127
00:58:09.639 --> 00:58:13.039
<v Speaker 1>I just I think that'd be good. He says, all right, Well,

1128
00:58:13.119 --> 00:58:14.679
<v Speaker 1>the thing is, I got a job that I have

1129
00:58:14.719 --> 00:58:16.960
<v Speaker 1>to fill in d C. So you know, when you

1130
00:58:17.360 --> 00:58:21.320
<v Speaker 1>hit on ninety five, turn right instead of left, and

1131
00:58:21.400 --> 00:58:25.199
<v Speaker 1>I need you to go go to d C. And

1132
00:58:25.280 --> 00:58:26.719
<v Speaker 1>at that point in my life, I used to call

1133
00:58:26.719 --> 00:58:29.880
<v Speaker 1>myself mars Sox Mikey and if you remember the old

1134
00:58:29.920 --> 00:58:32.719
<v Speaker 1>life checks commercials where they give it to Mikey Hilly

1135
00:58:32.719 --> 00:58:34.760
<v Speaker 1>did anything. And I knew who I was at that point.

1136
00:58:34.760 --> 00:58:36.800
<v Speaker 1>I knew what my job was at that point, and

1137
00:58:36.840 --> 00:58:39.360
<v Speaker 1>I was mature enough to accept that reality. And say, Okay,

1138
00:58:39.400 --> 00:58:42.360
<v Speaker 1>you need a guy who will go up and do

1139
00:58:42.400 --> 00:58:44.079
<v Speaker 1>a good job on behalf of the command and make

1140
00:58:44.239 --> 00:58:46.840
<v Speaker 1>the command look, you know, at least adequate and competent.

1141
00:58:47.679 --> 00:58:49.400
<v Speaker 1>But you don't have to spend a guy who's going

1142
00:58:49.480 --> 00:58:51.599
<v Speaker 1>to be a battalion commander and the regimental commander and

1143
00:58:51.639 --> 00:58:54.159
<v Speaker 1>that sort of thing on this job. I'm your utility player,

1144
00:58:54.360 --> 00:58:57.800
<v Speaker 1>got it, No worries understood. And I said that without

1145
00:58:57.840 --> 00:58:59.599
<v Speaker 1>anger or rancord, like I knew who I was at

1146
00:58:59.599 --> 00:59:01.800
<v Speaker 1>that point. I've been through all the whatever, the six

1147
00:59:01.840 --> 00:59:04.559
<v Speaker 1>stages of grief and figured out you also paid your

1148
00:59:04.639 --> 00:59:08.840
<v Speaker 1>dues though, yeah, I mean, and look, I was really blessed.

1149
00:59:08.880 --> 00:59:10.559
<v Speaker 3>I got to do a ton of stuff I wanted

1150
00:59:10.559 --> 00:59:10.880
<v Speaker 3>to do.

1151
00:59:11.519 --> 00:59:13.199
<v Speaker 1>A lot of people went out of their way in

1152
00:59:13.280 --> 00:59:15.519
<v Speaker 1>my career to make it possible for me to have

1153
00:59:15.599 --> 00:59:17.880
<v Speaker 1>things I wanted and to do things that I wanted

1154
00:59:17.880 --> 00:59:20.039
<v Speaker 1>to do, with the understanding that I had some limitation

1155
00:59:20.360 --> 00:59:22.719
<v Speaker 1>that I had imposed on myself at twenty three years

1156
00:59:22.760 --> 00:59:25.199
<v Speaker 1>old when I said, I'm not coooting what I want,

1157
00:59:25.199 --> 00:59:27.599
<v Speaker 1>so I'm going to reserves.

1158
00:59:28.159 --> 00:59:30.559
<v Speaker 3>And I don't regret that I loved going to law school.

1159
00:59:31.559 --> 00:59:34.559
<v Speaker 1>Living in Tallahassee Florida has opened avenues for me twenty

1160
00:59:34.599 --> 00:59:37.119
<v Speaker 1>years later as a writer, you know.

1161
00:59:37.239 --> 00:59:40.280
<v Speaker 3>So, I mean, I don't have any regrets in now

1162
00:59:40.320 --> 00:59:40.960
<v Speaker 3>in retirement.

1163
00:59:41.039 --> 00:59:43.760
<v Speaker 1>Certainly there were some wailing and gnashing of teeth when

1164
00:59:43.760 --> 00:59:45.440
<v Speaker 1>I was an active dude to the lieutenant colonel, but

1165
00:59:46.159 --> 00:59:50.639
<v Speaker 1>that's the way it goes. So yeah, I ended up

1166
00:59:50.679 --> 00:59:53.039
<v Speaker 1>in DC and I checked in and they're like, hey,

1167
00:59:54.280 --> 00:59:55.960
<v Speaker 1>I thought I was going up there to do a

1168
00:59:56.000 --> 00:59:59.119
<v Speaker 1>liaison job with the Joint Staff J five and the

1169
00:59:59.199 --> 01:00:02.920
<v Speaker 1>office direct who was a retired guy like hey, for

1170
01:00:03.000 --> 01:00:05.199
<v Speaker 1>the first year, you're going to be the executive officer

1171
01:00:05.239 --> 01:00:07.840
<v Speaker 1>to the Vice commander of SOCOM, and that will teach

1172
01:00:07.880 --> 01:00:10.239
<v Speaker 1>you to lay of the land up here, teach you

1173
01:00:10.280 --> 01:00:12.440
<v Speaker 1>the Pentagon. You really do have to learn the building.

1174
01:00:13.039 --> 01:00:15.199
<v Speaker 1>And that's a term of art. You gotta learn the

1175
01:00:15.239 --> 01:00:17.719
<v Speaker 1>physical building, but you gotta learn the denizens of the building.

1176
01:00:19.800 --> 01:00:24.559
<v Speaker 1>And so, okay, Roger that I'm marine. I so I

1177
01:00:24.840 --> 01:00:27.920
<v Speaker 1>was the EXO for Tom Trask for the first year.

1178
01:00:28.000 --> 01:00:32.679
<v Speaker 1>Lieutenant General Tom Trask, Great American Silver Star recipient. If

1179
01:00:32.679 --> 01:00:34.559
<v Speaker 1>you ever see the picture from Desert Storm of the

1180
01:00:34.599 --> 01:00:38.000
<v Speaker 1>PJ out the back of a fifty a H fifty

1181
01:00:38.039 --> 01:00:39.559
<v Speaker 1>three rescuing a down.

1182
01:00:39.400 --> 01:00:42.519
<v Speaker 3>Pilot like about to pull him in. Tom Trask is

1183
01:00:42.519 --> 01:00:43.039
<v Speaker 3>flying that.

1184
01:00:43.039 --> 01:00:46.639
<v Speaker 1>Bird and there's a whole real heroic story behind that that,

1185
01:00:46.760 --> 01:00:50.599
<v Speaker 1>you know, he gets the Silver Star for. But as

1186
01:00:50.599 --> 01:00:53.400
<v Speaker 1>there was a truckload of Iraqi's inbound to snatch that dude,

1187
01:00:53.519 --> 01:00:57.440
<v Speaker 1>he put the bird between the pilot and the truck,

1188
01:00:59.320 --> 01:01:01.320
<v Speaker 1>and you know, and they loaded him up and got

1189
01:01:01.400 --> 01:01:04.519
<v Speaker 1>him out of there. Well in eight ten the truck.

1190
01:01:05.960 --> 01:01:08.079
<v Speaker 1>But I worked for him for a year and then

1191
01:01:08.239 --> 01:01:12.000
<v Speaker 1>a guy named Lieutenant General Scott Howell, who later commanded Jaysack,

1192
01:01:12.960 --> 01:01:16.599
<v Speaker 1>came in and another phenomenal human being. I call that

1193
01:01:16.599 --> 01:01:20.920
<v Speaker 1>three years my Air Force Appreciation Tour. I'm, you know,

1194
01:01:21.000 --> 01:01:24.239
<v Speaker 1>I'm the savage Marine working for these you know Air

1195
01:01:24.280 --> 01:01:24.960
<v Speaker 1>Force dudes.

1196
01:01:25.440 --> 01:01:29.199
<v Speaker 3>They were all AFSC pilots, they were all fifty three pilots,

1197
01:01:29.239 --> 01:01:31.559
<v Speaker 3>they had all served together in the same squadron.

1198
01:01:32.559 --> 01:01:35.280
<v Speaker 1>I just learned a whole lot about culture and people

1199
01:01:35.320 --> 01:01:37.599
<v Speaker 1>and appreciating other people. And Scott Howel was a good

1200
01:01:37.599 --> 01:01:41.840
<v Speaker 1>friend of mine to this day. I've called him for help, counsel, advice,

1201
01:01:41.920 --> 01:01:44.800
<v Speaker 1>or just hey, how you doing. And it's certainly the

1202
01:01:45.199 --> 01:01:49.360
<v Speaker 1>only three star that I engaged with. It that way.

1203
01:01:50.880 --> 01:01:53.639
<v Speaker 3>But then so I loved working for him.

1204
01:01:53.960 --> 01:01:56.480
<v Speaker 1>And then he got selected for Jay Sock and went

1205
01:01:56.519 --> 01:02:00.039
<v Speaker 1>on down and took command there, and I went to

1206
01:02:00.079 --> 01:02:04.679
<v Speaker 1>work for Lieutenant General Jim's Life, who until relatively recently

1207
01:02:04.760 --> 01:02:05.199
<v Speaker 1>was the Vice.

1208
01:02:05.159 --> 01:02:08.880
<v Speaker 3>Chief of Staff of the Air Force, And that was

1209
01:02:08.920 --> 01:02:10.039
<v Speaker 3>another great experience.

1210
01:02:10.800 --> 01:02:13.280
<v Speaker 1>That was a guy that's a guy who you know

1211
01:02:13.280 --> 01:02:15.159
<v Speaker 1>would pull you into his office and he was explaining

1212
01:02:15.199 --> 01:02:17.920
<v Speaker 1>why he's doing things what he's doing because he really

1213
01:02:17.920 --> 01:02:19.960
<v Speaker 1>felt like his job was to develop the people under

1214
01:02:20.039 --> 01:02:22.960
<v Speaker 1>him to become him. And you know, I had to

1215
01:02:23.079 --> 01:02:25.159
<v Speaker 1>kind of the first time you did that with me,

1216
01:02:25.239 --> 01:02:27.480
<v Speaker 1>I was like, sure, you got to understand the reality, like,

1217
01:02:27.519 --> 01:02:29.039
<v Speaker 1>I'm never going to be a colonel, much less a

1218
01:02:29.039 --> 01:02:32.079
<v Speaker 1>three star. I'm just gonna work super hard for you

1219
01:02:32.360 --> 01:02:35.119
<v Speaker 1>and I'm gonna do as good a job as I

1220
01:02:35.119 --> 01:02:37.639
<v Speaker 1>can do for you. But you don't need to waste

1221
01:02:37.920 --> 01:02:42.400
<v Speaker 1>any personal development credits on me because it's not going

1222
01:02:42.400 --> 01:02:44.480
<v Speaker 1>to pay off. And to his great credit, he still

1223
01:02:44.480 --> 01:02:48.719
<v Speaker 1>did because he's somebody that develops, you know, his subordinates.

1224
01:02:49.159 --> 01:02:51.880
<v Speaker 1>He also likes really good music bands I never would

1225
01:02:51.920 --> 01:02:53.639
<v Speaker 1>have expected a three star to be into. So that

1226
01:02:53.760 --> 01:02:54.599
<v Speaker 1>was super cool.

1227
01:02:55.480 --> 01:02:58.360
<v Speaker 2>Can you explain how what that office does and how

1228
01:02:58.360 --> 01:03:00.440
<v Speaker 2>it works in conjunction with so common Tampa.

1229
01:03:01.039 --> 01:03:04.400
<v Speaker 1>Sure, so you have the four star Commander h of SOCOM,

1230
01:03:05.519 --> 01:03:08.039
<v Speaker 1>and then you have a deputy commander who's a three

1231
01:03:08.039 --> 01:03:10.880
<v Speaker 1>star who sits in Tampa and he's basically the guy

1232
01:03:11.280 --> 01:03:17.239
<v Speaker 1>who's over worldwide ops and he reports obviously to the commander,

1233
01:03:17.280 --> 01:03:21.480
<v Speaker 1>but he kind of guides all the ops related stuff, operations, intel,

1234
01:03:22.840 --> 01:03:25.079
<v Speaker 1>you know, talking to subordinate units, et cetera.

1235
01:03:25.719 --> 01:03:29.039
<v Speaker 3>And then you have the Vice Commander in d C.

1236
01:03:29.400 --> 01:03:32.920
<v Speaker 1>He lives in d C. He sits in a small

1237
01:03:33.000 --> 01:03:37.400
<v Speaker 1>office in the Pentagon, and his job is to interface

1238
01:03:37.519 --> 01:03:41.199
<v Speaker 1>with all the personalities up in d c U and

1239
01:03:41.239 --> 01:03:43.760
<v Speaker 1>within the building itself, and to also be the guy

1240
01:03:43.800 --> 01:03:51.480
<v Speaker 1>who oversees resourcing, money, acquisitions, you know, technology and logistics,

1241
01:03:53.039 --> 01:03:56.960
<v Speaker 1>the J eight in particular. And then like I say,

1242
01:03:57.000 --> 01:04:00.559
<v Speaker 1>soft ATNL, the developmental stuff within SOCOM. He's in charge

1243
01:04:00.599 --> 01:04:03.840
<v Speaker 1>of that, he or she and uh.

1244
01:04:03.960 --> 01:04:07.880
<v Speaker 3>And so that was the developmental path UH.

1245
01:04:07.639 --> 01:04:11.440
<v Speaker 1>For Trask who retired out of there, so Howell who

1246
01:04:11.480 --> 01:04:14.239
<v Speaker 1>took Jasack out of there, and then Slife who took

1247
01:04:14.519 --> 01:04:17.320
<v Speaker 1>assoc before becoming by Chief Staff of the Air Force.

1248
01:04:17.639 --> 01:04:21.280
<v Speaker 2>And this office is separate from ASD Soliic, Yes.

1249
01:04:21.239 --> 01:04:24.199
<v Speaker 1>But very much interfaced with a SC solic When when

1250
01:04:24.199 --> 01:04:28.199
<v Speaker 1>Oen West, who was a fellow forceriecon Marine, was ASD Solick,

1251
01:04:28.440 --> 01:04:30.639
<v Speaker 1>we would go, you know, sit with him once a

1252
01:04:30.679 --> 01:04:33.119
<v Speaker 1>week and have a standing meeting. And I always had

1253
01:04:33.159 --> 01:04:34.880
<v Speaker 1>fun with that because we were both forced guys, and

1254
01:04:34.960 --> 01:04:37.000
<v Speaker 1>you know, it was like, he's the ASD. But hey, Worth,

1255
01:04:37.039 --> 01:04:39.280
<v Speaker 1>what's up. Let's talk about running or something, you know,

1256
01:04:39.760 --> 01:04:42.400
<v Speaker 1>just two forced guys. It's cool.

1257
01:04:43.400 --> 01:04:46.039
<v Speaker 2>But before we move on from this time frame, anything

1258
01:04:46.119 --> 01:04:48.079
<v Speaker 2>you want to say about like working as the J

1259
01:04:48.239 --> 01:04:50.840
<v Speaker 2>five at the c Josoda some of those other experiences

1260
01:04:51.039 --> 01:04:52.199
<v Speaker 2>you said were very positive.

1261
01:04:52.679 --> 01:04:55.840
<v Speaker 1>Once I grew up and matured and was able to

1262
01:04:55.880 --> 01:04:59.159
<v Speaker 1>open my eyes to what can I learn here, you know,

1263
01:04:59.280 --> 01:05:01.119
<v Speaker 1>rather than I you know everything. So let me just

1264
01:05:01.159 --> 01:05:03.280
<v Speaker 1>shut down my brain because these people are wasting my

1265
01:05:03.320 --> 01:05:07.280
<v Speaker 1>time until I can get what I want. I worked

1266
01:05:07.320 --> 01:05:13.800
<v Speaker 1>for a phenomenal commander named Chris Riga, and I adored

1267
01:05:14.280 --> 01:05:17.039
<v Speaker 1>working for Chris Riga. You talk about a guy who

1268
01:05:17.639 --> 01:05:21.440
<v Speaker 1>empowered his subordinates to just run. I will never forget

1269
01:05:21.480 --> 01:05:23.360
<v Speaker 1>this guy. Like right after he took command of the

1270
01:05:23.400 --> 01:05:25.000
<v Speaker 1>seat of soda. If we're having one of our morning

1271
01:05:25.000 --> 01:05:27.159
<v Speaker 1>stand ups. He comes walking in. We do the whole

1272
01:05:27.199 --> 01:05:29.199
<v Speaker 1>stand up. Everybody on the jock floor stands up and

1273
01:05:29.199 --> 01:05:31.800
<v Speaker 1>says their thing, and we get to the end and Rigo,

1274
01:05:31.840 --> 01:05:34.480
<v Speaker 1>who's got like this super kind of, you know, cool

1275
01:05:35.840 --> 01:05:40.199
<v Speaker 1>whole demeanor about him, but he's like, hey, so who

1276
01:05:40.239 --> 01:05:44.960
<v Speaker 1>here does something that they think is stupid? And everybody's

1277
01:05:45.039 --> 01:05:49.199
<v Speaker 1>kind of like me. He's like, Okay, here's what I

1278
01:05:49.280 --> 01:05:51.360
<v Speaker 1>want you to do. I want you to stop doing

1279
01:05:51.400 --> 01:05:54.519
<v Speaker 1>that thing, and if the next higher headquarters doesn't call

1280
01:05:54.559 --> 01:05:57.360
<v Speaker 1>you on it within the next seven days, never do

1281
01:05:57.480 --> 01:06:02.239
<v Speaker 1>that thing again. And I just was like, this guy

1282
01:06:02.280 --> 01:06:06.760
<v Speaker 1>was on I think his thirteenth rotation in Afghanistan. I

1283
01:06:06.840 --> 01:06:08.599
<v Speaker 1>was working with him. I was working with a guy

1284
01:06:08.599 --> 01:06:11.360
<v Speaker 1>from third they were he was a third Group homeboy,

1285
01:06:11.480 --> 01:06:17.079
<v Speaker 1>now in command a seventh group, and so the j

1286
01:06:17.559 --> 01:06:21.039
<v Speaker 1>three was a really great dude who had lost one

1287
01:06:21.199 --> 01:06:26.679
<v Speaker 1>leg in a suicide bombing in Pakistan, and he was

1288
01:06:26.719 --> 01:06:30.039
<v Speaker 1>a real live, tough guy and deployed with one amputated

1289
01:06:30.119 --> 01:06:32.760
<v Speaker 1>leg and one messed up leg, and he trained so

1290
01:06:33.000 --> 01:06:36.920
<v Speaker 1>hard and ran so hard every day on the treadmill

1291
01:06:37.800 --> 01:06:40.039
<v Speaker 1>that he's jacked up his other leg. And they had

1292
01:06:40.039 --> 01:06:43.960
<v Speaker 1>to take off that foot, so they sent him home.

1293
01:06:44.960 --> 01:06:50.239
<v Speaker 1>But I mean, he was just a really impressive, hard, dedicated,

1294
01:06:50.519 --> 01:06:55.800
<v Speaker 1>brave dude, and so they brought in another guy. We

1295
01:06:55.880 --> 01:06:58.239
<v Speaker 1>had a third group guy named Dave Haskell, who had

1296
01:06:58.280 --> 01:07:01.639
<v Speaker 1>been one of Riga's oh DA commanders when Rego was

1297
01:07:01.639 --> 01:07:05.440
<v Speaker 1>an AOB commander and was now chief of Staff of

1298
01:07:05.519 --> 01:07:08.840
<v Speaker 1>the Cajus OTIF. We had a guy named Jason Johnston

1299
01:07:08.840 --> 01:07:11.400
<v Speaker 1>who is the single finest military officer I've ever worked

1300
01:07:11.440 --> 01:07:15.400
<v Speaker 1>with in any service. Jason came over to be the

1301
01:07:15.480 --> 01:07:18.119
<v Speaker 1>j three. He had been one of Riga's AOB commanders

1302
01:07:18.480 --> 01:07:21.840
<v Speaker 1>when uh excuse me, ODA commanders when Riga was an

1303
01:07:21.880 --> 01:07:25.199
<v Speaker 1>AOV commander, and then he and Haskell were AOB commanders

1304
01:07:25.400 --> 01:07:27.880
<v Speaker 1>for RIGA at first Battalion, third Group, and then Jason

1305
01:07:27.960 --> 01:07:30.519
<v Speaker 1>ended up taking first Battion, third Group, and then ultimately

1306
01:07:30.559 --> 01:07:33.719
<v Speaker 1>taking third Group. But I've said it to Jason, I said,

1307
01:07:33.800 --> 01:07:38.000
<v Speaker 1>it's gone to people, the single best military officer of

1308
01:07:38.039 --> 01:07:41.239
<v Speaker 1>any service or capability I have ever worked with is

1309
01:07:41.360 --> 01:07:47.480
<v Speaker 1>Jason Johnston, who recently retired out of the Army. So

1310
01:07:47.719 --> 01:07:53.320
<v Speaker 1>the phenomenal people just phenomenal, and I've it was a

1311
01:07:53.440 --> 01:07:55.599
<v Speaker 1>it was a really really special deployment. And the folks

1312
01:07:55.599 --> 01:07:57.639
<v Speaker 1>that I was working with in the J five like

1313
01:07:57.679 --> 01:07:59.400
<v Speaker 1>and and a lot. I you know, I had one

1314
01:07:59.440 --> 01:08:02.239
<v Speaker 1>Special four aficer, I had a Seal staff n C

1315
01:08:04.000 --> 01:08:05.679
<v Speaker 1>and I and I had an EOD guy.

1316
01:08:05.719 --> 01:08:09.239
<v Speaker 3>And I think those were my only so calm, homegrown folks.

1317
01:08:09.239 --> 01:08:12.239
<v Speaker 1>Probably the most effective guy was my URSA, who was

1318
01:08:12.239 --> 01:08:16.840
<v Speaker 1>a CAV officer that's an operational research and systems analysis

1319
01:08:16.840 --> 01:08:19.079
<v Speaker 1>guy that the Army gives you, basically a designated smart guy.

1320
01:08:19.159 --> 01:08:22.560
<v Speaker 1>He's a PhD now. But the guy had done forty

1321
01:08:22.600 --> 01:08:24.960
<v Speaker 1>eight months in back in Baghdad and Mosl, et cetera.

1322
01:08:25.039 --> 01:08:26.600
<v Speaker 1>As a CAV guy. He had written a Metal of

1323
01:08:26.640 --> 01:08:29.319
<v Speaker 1>Honor citation if that tells you the level of combat

1324
01:08:29.319 --> 01:08:33.760
<v Speaker 1>he had seen. So he was like a real legit

1325
01:08:33.880 --> 01:08:38.479
<v Speaker 1>tough guy. It was just a really really really good team.

1326
01:08:39.880 --> 01:08:43.079
<v Speaker 1>So super deployment, you know, and I say all the time,

1327
01:08:43.119 --> 01:08:46.000
<v Speaker 1>I said to you before we started recording, you know,

1328
01:08:46.079 --> 01:08:49.239
<v Speaker 1>I got one combat deployment and two deployments to combat zones,

1329
01:08:50.359 --> 01:08:52.720
<v Speaker 1>and it's two very different things. And I like to

1330
01:08:52.760 --> 01:08:55.760
<v Speaker 1>be very very clear about that because there were plenty

1331
01:08:55.840 --> 01:08:58.800
<v Speaker 1>of young Marines who were out there, you know, I

1332
01:08:58.920 --> 01:09:01.439
<v Speaker 1>met him in the intervening you who were putting tourniquets

1333
01:09:01.439 --> 01:09:03.079
<v Speaker 1>on their arms and legs before they went out on

1334
01:09:03.119 --> 01:09:08.760
<v Speaker 1>patrol because they just knew somebody was gonna need these today. Meanwhile,

1335
01:09:08.840 --> 01:09:13.039
<v Speaker 1>I had plenty of coffee and cliff bars and you

1336
01:09:13.079 --> 01:09:17.319
<v Speaker 1>know whatever else rip its of the thirteen months I

1337
01:09:17.319 --> 01:09:20.840
<v Speaker 1>spent at Bagram. You know, I was no kind of

1338
01:09:20.920 --> 01:09:21.960
<v Speaker 1>hero in Afghanistan.

1339
01:09:23.880 --> 01:09:28.319
<v Speaker 2>So twenty twenty one, you had already kind of figured

1340
01:09:28.319 --> 01:09:30.159
<v Speaker 2>out or determined for yourself. I'm not going to be

1341
01:09:30.199 --> 01:09:34.399
<v Speaker 2>a general, but your retirement is kind of coming up.

1342
01:09:34.439 --> 01:09:36.640
<v Speaker 2>I mean, was there like trepidation about that? I mean,

1343
01:09:36.680 --> 01:09:38.840
<v Speaker 2>you were in the court for a long time.

1344
01:09:39.680 --> 01:09:41.880
<v Speaker 1>I was, but you know I bounced out, I bounced

1345
01:09:41.920 --> 01:09:44.520
<v Speaker 1>back in. I knew the reality of the situation. I

1346
01:09:44.560 --> 01:09:46.119
<v Speaker 1>say now to guys, because I do a lot of

1347
01:09:46.119 --> 01:09:48.840
<v Speaker 1>talking to marines at the fifteen to twenty year mark,

1348
01:09:49.439 --> 01:09:51.079
<v Speaker 1>the worst thing a marine does is get out too

1349
01:09:51.119 --> 01:09:56.279
<v Speaker 1>early or too late. I did both, and I mean

1350
01:09:56.319 --> 01:09:58.079
<v Speaker 1>I didn't get out with any bitterness. It was just

1351
01:09:58.159 --> 01:10:01.239
<v Speaker 1>well past time when, like when guys you raised as

1352
01:10:01.279 --> 01:10:05.840
<v Speaker 1>captains are starting to get named as battalion commanders, it's

1353
01:10:05.880 --> 01:10:09.359
<v Speaker 1>time for you to go away, And I also believed

1354
01:10:09.399 --> 01:10:13.479
<v Speaker 1>in the organizational development of MARSOC. You know, we were

1355
01:10:13.479 --> 01:10:16.399
<v Speaker 1>a hodgepodge in the early days of MARSOK. You know,

1356
01:10:16.439 --> 01:10:18.359
<v Speaker 1>you were either a prior force guy or you weren't

1357
01:10:18.680 --> 01:10:21.279
<v Speaker 1>right either at Jump and Jump Wings on Dog Bubble

1358
01:10:21.359 --> 01:10:24.439
<v Speaker 1>or you didn't. And there were a number of guys

1359
01:10:25.359 --> 01:10:27.880
<v Speaker 1>who came. So I know this isn't where we are,

1360
01:10:27.920 --> 01:10:29.920
<v Speaker 1>but I'm gonna go back in time. Sure. You know,

1361
01:10:30.119 --> 01:10:32.960
<v Speaker 1>when MARSOCK commenced, it was formed out of First and

1362
01:10:33.039 --> 01:10:36.840
<v Speaker 1>Second Force Recon Companies, which were the haves, and then

1363
01:10:36.880 --> 01:10:39.560
<v Speaker 1>the Foreign Military Training Unit, which was a Marine Corps

1364
01:10:39.600 --> 01:10:43.079
<v Speaker 1>stood up organization that my buddy Pete Petronzio the second

1365
01:10:43.079 --> 01:10:45.640
<v Speaker 1>Force commander and the G three was the CEO of

1366
01:10:46.239 --> 01:10:49.479
<v Speaker 1>And the way that thing got filled was, hey, everybody

1367
01:10:49.520 --> 01:10:53.000
<v Speaker 1>that speaks the languages coming to Campbell's Union. That's also

1368
01:10:53.039 --> 01:10:56.439
<v Speaker 1>an O three XX infantry guy, and they're now trainers.

1369
01:10:57.199 --> 01:10:59.800
<v Speaker 1>It's sort of I mean, it was much like an

1370
01:10:59.800 --> 01:11:04.760
<v Speaker 1>as FAB, probably realizingly, and a lot of it got

1371
01:11:04.840 --> 01:11:08.600
<v Speaker 1>pulled out of Fourth Marine Expeditionary Brigade, which was an

1372
01:11:08.640 --> 01:11:11.600
<v Speaker 1>ad hoc unit that got started again, like, hey, everybody,

1373
01:11:11.680 --> 01:11:14.439
<v Speaker 1>kick ups some marines, we're making a MEP, which then

1374
01:11:14.520 --> 01:11:17.680
<v Speaker 1>turned into everybody kick ups, some marines, we're making an FMTU.

1375
01:11:17.800 --> 01:11:20.560
<v Speaker 1>And so there were some really amazing marines with some

1376
01:11:20.720 --> 01:11:24.239
<v Speaker 1>amazing capabilities and stories, but there all were also were

1377
01:11:24.279 --> 01:11:26.640
<v Speaker 1>some guys where was like, oh, yeah, you're gonna go

1378
01:11:26.720 --> 01:11:27.720
<v Speaker 1>be soft now.

1379
01:11:28.199 --> 01:11:34.680
<v Speaker 6>Yeah, go ahead, and so there you know, the I

1380
01:11:34.720 --> 01:11:36.920
<v Speaker 6>think a critical thing going back to the question about

1381
01:11:36.960 --> 01:11:38.319
<v Speaker 6>how do you stand up a new unit.

1382
01:11:38.720 --> 01:11:42.159
<v Speaker 1>You all need to have a common bloodline. And you know,

1383
01:11:42.279 --> 01:11:44.800
<v Speaker 1>I was a forced guy, but I didn't go to ITC.

1384
01:11:46.119 --> 01:11:48.479
<v Speaker 1>Maybe this guy went to selection, but he didn't go

1385
01:11:48.560 --> 01:11:49.279
<v Speaker 1>to ITC.

1386
01:11:50.119 --> 01:11:52.000
<v Speaker 3>This guy went to selection and ITC.

1387
01:11:52.239 --> 01:11:53.880
<v Speaker 1>This guy never went to any of it because he

1388
01:11:53.920 --> 01:11:57.840
<v Speaker 1>was grandfathered in in two thousand and whatever. The best

1389
01:11:57.840 --> 01:12:00.680
<v Speaker 1>thing that happened, no matter the quality and performance and look,

1390
01:12:00.760 --> 01:12:02.600
<v Speaker 1>some of the dudes that came in in the initial

1391
01:12:02.680 --> 01:12:08.359
<v Speaker 1>draft did unbelievable things in combat in Afghanistan, in Africa,

1392
01:12:08.640 --> 01:12:10.000
<v Speaker 1>in any number of places.

1393
01:12:10.319 --> 01:12:15.279
<v Speaker 3>They burnished the unit's legacy with honor, no question.

1394
01:12:16.159 --> 01:12:17.960
<v Speaker 1>But the best thing is that guys like me retired

1395
01:12:18.000 --> 01:12:21.279
<v Speaker 1>out so that now you see a marcycle lieutenant colonel,

1396
01:12:21.279 --> 01:12:22.800
<v Speaker 1>you know exactly where it came from and how he

1397
01:12:22.840 --> 01:12:24.239
<v Speaker 1>got there and that matters.

1398
01:12:24.560 --> 01:12:30.279
<v Speaker 2>Right, right, right, So you retire and what within a

1399
01:12:30.359 --> 01:12:33.199
<v Speaker 2>month or two Afghanistan is collapsing.

1400
01:12:34.199 --> 01:12:38.600
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. I retired on June thirtieth of twenty twenty one,

1401
01:12:38.680 --> 01:12:40.680
<v Speaker 1>and I jumped in an RV with my ten year

1402
01:12:40.720 --> 01:12:44.199
<v Speaker 1>old daughter. And I got that idea from Pat McCauley,

1403
01:12:44.239 --> 01:12:47.359
<v Speaker 1>who was the CSMI socom And I was talking to

1404
01:12:47.399 --> 01:12:48.560
<v Speaker 1>him on day about what are you gonna when you

1405
01:12:48.600 --> 01:12:51.279
<v Speaker 1>retire CSM I'm going to drive around this country that

1406
01:12:51.319 --> 01:12:55.960
<v Speaker 1>I've been defending, you know, with various units for the

1407
01:12:56.039 --> 01:12:58.560
<v Speaker 1>last thirty years. And he was a marine who jumped

1408
01:12:58.600 --> 01:13:03.159
<v Speaker 1>to the army, and I'm gonna go see this countryside.

1409
01:13:03.319 --> 01:13:05.560
<v Speaker 1>And I said, that sounds like an amazing way to

1410
01:13:05.640 --> 01:13:07.720
<v Speaker 1>kind of wash all this out of your system. So

1411
01:13:07.760 --> 01:13:09.720
<v Speaker 1>I rent this little C class RV. I don't know

1412
01:13:09.720 --> 01:13:12.800
<v Speaker 1>how to drive an RV, and I throw my daughter

1413
01:13:12.840 --> 01:13:14.680
<v Speaker 1>in it and we start driving and we drive twelve

1414
01:13:14.720 --> 01:13:18.520
<v Speaker 1>thousand miles and my wife medicine Bozeman and came to

1415
01:13:18.560 --> 01:13:20.399
<v Speaker 1>rest of the way home to Wilmington, North Carolina, where

1416
01:13:20.439 --> 01:13:25.600
<v Speaker 1>I lived. But I was very studiously avoiding Afghanistan because

1417
01:13:25.920 --> 01:13:28.399
<v Speaker 1>you know, I was obsessed with it for years. For

1418
01:13:28.439 --> 01:13:30.840
<v Speaker 1>whatever reason. I'm way more passionate about Afghanistan than Iraq.

1419
01:13:30.920 --> 01:13:35.800
<v Speaker 1>But I I would pick up little bits of data,

1420
01:13:36.439 --> 01:13:38.439
<v Speaker 1>you know, my daughter's sleeping and I'm reading the news

1421
01:13:38.520 --> 01:13:40.119
<v Speaker 1>or whatever in the RV and it would be like, hey,

1422
01:13:40.199 --> 01:13:44.840
<v Speaker 1>Lashkar guy fail to the Taliban. No shit again, you know,

1423
01:13:45.359 --> 01:13:47.840
<v Speaker 1>ninth Commando KANDAC will go down there and sort that out,

1424
01:13:47.880 --> 01:13:53.479
<v Speaker 1>and then it'll happen again next year whatever. And by

1425
01:13:53.520 --> 01:13:58.079
<v Speaker 1>the time I got home on I think August, yeah,

1426
01:13:58.159 --> 01:14:01.039
<v Speaker 1>August fifth, or August, August tenth or twelfth, I don't

1427
01:14:01.079 --> 01:14:05.359
<v Speaker 1>know what it was. I got home and the Taliban

1428
01:14:05.399 --> 01:14:08.319
<v Speaker 1>were at the gates of Cobble, and it had already

1429
01:14:08.319 --> 01:14:11.039
<v Speaker 1>gotten my attention. When they took Mizari Sharief, I was like,

1430
01:14:11.399 --> 01:14:15.840
<v Speaker 1>I took mez what? And so I started paying attention.

1431
01:14:16.239 --> 01:14:18.079
<v Speaker 1>But now I'm starting this new life. And I had

1432
01:14:18.119 --> 01:14:20.640
<v Speaker 1>started writing before I retired, so I kind of had

1433
01:14:20.880 --> 01:14:23.319
<v Speaker 1>a good glide path as a writer. And I was

1434
01:14:23.359 --> 01:14:25.520
<v Speaker 1>going on my very first real life go somewhere and

1435
01:14:25.560 --> 01:14:29.359
<v Speaker 1>write something assignment. And my job was I was going

1436
01:14:29.439 --> 01:14:31.640
<v Speaker 1>to go out to western North Carolina and I was

1437
01:14:31.640 --> 01:14:33.479
<v Speaker 1>going to do some flat fishing in the tuck of

1438
01:14:33.560 --> 01:14:38.319
<v Speaker 1>cig and some other stuff, you know, and anyway, go

1439
01:14:38.319 --> 01:14:40.520
<v Speaker 1>out there and write about it. Okay, cool, Well, we

1440
01:14:40.520 --> 01:14:42.479
<v Speaker 1>were having a hurricane off the coast of North Carolina.

1441
01:14:42.479 --> 01:14:46.000
<v Speaker 1>The outer bands are out there. Mountains are collapsing, like

1442
01:14:46.159 --> 01:14:49.159
<v Speaker 1>entire sides of mountains are falling into the river. Bodies

1443
01:14:49.159 --> 01:14:51.439
<v Speaker 1>are floating down the river. It feels like the apocalypse.

1444
01:14:52.520 --> 01:14:54.640
<v Speaker 1>I'm staying with a buddy of mine who's an author

1445
01:14:55.119 --> 01:14:58.279
<v Speaker 1>and magazine writer who lives in a cabin on top

1446
01:14:58.279 --> 01:15:02.520
<v Speaker 1>of a mountain in the boondocks of North Carolina. He

1447
01:15:02.560 --> 01:15:05.880
<v Speaker 1>has no phone service and he can text when he

1448
01:15:05.880 --> 01:15:10.640
<v Speaker 1>has internet. And I got a message the day before

1449
01:15:10.680 --> 01:15:14.039
<v Speaker 1>I left from this lance corporal in the Reserves who

1450
01:15:14.039 --> 01:15:16.720
<v Speaker 1>had been an Afghan interpreter for seven years before he

1451
01:15:17.039 --> 01:15:21.600
<v Speaker 1>migrated over here and got citizenship and joined the Marine Corps.

1452
01:15:21.920 --> 01:15:24.479
<v Speaker 1>And he's like, Sir, my dad is with the Special

1453
01:15:24.479 --> 01:15:28.159
<v Speaker 1>Mission Wing in Cobble and my brother is an interpreter

1454
01:15:28.279 --> 01:15:30.800
<v Speaker 1>with them. My mom and little brother are living there

1455
01:15:30.800 --> 01:15:33.479
<v Speaker 1>with them, and I'm afraid they're going to get killed.

1456
01:15:33.760 --> 01:15:36.680
<v Speaker 1>Can you help me? And I'm like, dude, I'm a

1457
01:15:36.720 --> 01:15:39.119
<v Speaker 1>middle manager, bro, what do you you know? And I'm retired,

1458
01:15:39.760 --> 01:15:41.720
<v Speaker 1>but okay, let me see what I can do. When

1459
01:15:41.720 --> 01:15:43.760
<v Speaker 1>a lance corporal asked lieutenant colonel to do something, you

1460
01:15:44.199 --> 01:15:48.239
<v Speaker 1>figure it out. So I'm thinking on this and I

1461
01:15:48.239 --> 01:15:50.920
<v Speaker 1>started reaching out. My buddy was the new commander at

1462
01:15:50.920 --> 01:15:54.760
<v Speaker 1>the airport, and I do a couple of folks on

1463
01:15:54.800 --> 01:15:56.920
<v Speaker 1>his staff as well, and I knew some other people,

1464
01:15:56.960 --> 01:16:01.199
<v Speaker 1>and so I was just kind of attention. But I

1465
01:16:01.239 --> 01:16:03.920
<v Speaker 1>also was watching this guy, Tom Schumann, who runs patrol

1466
01:16:03.920 --> 01:16:08.119
<v Speaker 1>based Abatte. He's a Marine lieutenant colonel now who'd been

1467
01:16:08.119 --> 01:16:10.560
<v Speaker 1>trying to get his turp out for really ten years,

1468
01:16:11.520 --> 01:16:13.720
<v Speaker 1>but he got real aggressive during the evac so he

1469
01:16:13.800 --> 01:16:16.359
<v Speaker 1>ends up above the fold in the New York Times.

1470
01:16:17.359 --> 01:16:21.479
<v Speaker 1>And you know, Tom's are really really capable, really really thoughtful,

1471
01:16:21.640 --> 01:16:24.319
<v Speaker 1>organized human being. He's also tall and good looking, so

1472
01:16:24.399 --> 01:16:28.479
<v Speaker 1>that helps. But there he is, and he's running this

1473
01:16:28.520 --> 01:16:30.960
<v Speaker 1>amazing guerrilla campaign in the media to try and get

1474
01:16:31.000 --> 01:16:34.319
<v Speaker 1>his guy out. So I call him on Facebook messenger

1475
01:16:34.359 --> 01:16:36.479
<v Speaker 1>phone from the top of a mountain in the middle

1476
01:16:36.520 --> 01:16:39.000
<v Speaker 1>of a hurricane. I've never talked to him in my life,

1477
01:16:39.039 --> 01:16:40.399
<v Speaker 1>and I'm like, hey, dude, I think I got a

1478
01:16:40.439 --> 01:16:43.680
<v Speaker 1>way to get your boy out. And you know. A

1479
01:16:43.760 --> 01:16:45.880
<v Speaker 1>few weeks later we well, a few months later, we

1480
01:16:46.000 --> 01:16:48.279
<v Speaker 1>inked deal to write the book about him and his turp,

1481
01:16:48.840 --> 01:16:51.880
<v Speaker 1>and then we got the family out of the Marine

1482
01:16:51.920 --> 01:16:57.920
<v Speaker 1>lance corporal as well, so that started it. I drove

1483
01:16:57.960 --> 01:17:00.680
<v Speaker 1>back across North Carolina from the far West to where

1484
01:17:00.720 --> 01:17:02.199
<v Speaker 1>I live on the far eastern end. I had my

1485
01:17:02.279 --> 01:17:05.359
<v Speaker 1>daughter with me, and I started calling guys like Mick

1486
01:17:05.439 --> 01:17:09.359
<v Speaker 1>mulroy and hey, man, what are we going to do?

1487
01:17:10.159 --> 01:17:13.720
<v Speaker 1>How are we going to help affect this situation? My

1488
01:17:13.880 --> 01:17:16.000
<v Speaker 1>ten year old learned a whole lot new ways to

1489
01:17:16.039 --> 01:17:18.600
<v Speaker 1>say the F word because they were a day on

1490
01:17:18.640 --> 01:17:22.920
<v Speaker 1>the speaker in the car. And by the time I

1491
01:17:22.920 --> 01:17:25.920
<v Speaker 1>got back, we had organized a group to try and

1492
01:17:25.960 --> 01:17:27.560
<v Speaker 1>do some eback. But the truth of the matter is

1493
01:17:27.560 --> 01:17:30.119
<v Speaker 1>we were ineffective because it was a bunch of old dudes.

1494
01:17:31.079 --> 01:17:34.279
<v Speaker 1>It was like a bunch of colonels and ambassadors and

1495
01:17:34.600 --> 01:17:40.199
<v Speaker 1>you know Mint from the agency. People say there's a

1496
01:17:40.199 --> 01:17:41.840
<v Speaker 1>certain age where you get too old and you forget

1497
01:17:41.880 --> 01:17:42.520
<v Speaker 1>how to do work.

1498
01:17:44.199 --> 01:17:46.479
<v Speaker 3>I don't think that's true. We were willing to work.

1499
01:17:46.560 --> 01:17:48.119
<v Speaker 3>You just forget.

1500
01:17:48.279 --> 01:17:52.479
<v Speaker 1>You don't know how mechanisms and systems work anymore below

1501
01:17:52.520 --> 01:17:55.239
<v Speaker 1>you because you're so used to tasking the systems to

1502
01:17:55.319 --> 01:17:59.680
<v Speaker 1>do things. And so eventually a guy named Jim Webb,

1503
01:17:59.720 --> 01:18:02.720
<v Speaker 1>who you know, Senator Webb's kid and a journalist hooked

1504
01:18:02.720 --> 01:18:07.239
<v Speaker 1>me up with a guy named Joe Sabo, who's you

1505
01:18:07.279 --> 01:18:11.399
<v Speaker 1>know at this point, he's probably forty now. And Joe

1506
01:18:11.560 --> 01:18:14.720
<v Speaker 1>was actually being effective. He was young. He was a

1507
01:18:14.760 --> 01:18:17.800
<v Speaker 1>recently separated captain who was working in tech, and he

1508
01:18:17.840 --> 01:18:19.479
<v Speaker 1>had a bunch of dudes just like him, and they

1509
01:18:19.479 --> 01:18:22.399
<v Speaker 1>were making it happen on the ground. And I talked

1510
01:18:22.439 --> 01:18:24.119
<v Speaker 1>to him and I was good. I was again, let's

1511
01:18:24.119 --> 01:18:26.560
<v Speaker 1>talk about ego, you know, I call him up to

1512
01:18:26.560 --> 01:18:28.760
<v Speaker 1>blow him away with my resume and that of all

1513
01:18:28.800 --> 01:18:32.279
<v Speaker 1>my friends and how important we are and how many

1514
01:18:32.279 --> 01:18:33.119
<v Speaker 1>connections we have.

1515
01:18:33.279 --> 01:18:35.920
<v Speaker 3>And I did just that thing, and he handled me

1516
01:18:35.960 --> 01:18:36.439
<v Speaker 3>like a pro.

1517
01:18:36.640 --> 01:18:39.000
<v Speaker 1>He was like, that's amazing. I never thought I'd be

1518
01:18:39.000 --> 01:18:41.640
<v Speaker 1>talking to guys like you with these amazing resumes. I

1519
01:18:41.680 --> 01:18:42.960
<v Speaker 1>was like, all right, now, who are you? You know?

1520
01:18:43.039 --> 01:18:46.439
<v Speaker 1>And he's like, well, we've got eighty volunteers and you

1521
01:18:46.560 --> 01:18:48.439
<v Speaker 1>hear like a voice off to the side. He's like, sorry,

1522
01:18:48.439 --> 01:18:52.479
<v Speaker 1>a hundred volunteers and you know, we're organizing training and

1523
01:18:52.520 --> 01:18:54.680
<v Speaker 1>we've got a virtual Jock set up and we're organizing

1524
01:18:54.760 --> 01:18:56.359
<v Speaker 1>sticks on the ground so that we can get people

1525
01:18:56.359 --> 01:18:58.840
<v Speaker 1>onto airplanes. And I was like, what do you need?

1526
01:18:59.600 --> 01:19:02.960
<v Speaker 1>We need somebody to bust roadblocks administratively. I was like, well, okay,

1527
01:19:03.000 --> 01:19:05.800
<v Speaker 1>that's the one thing we can do for you. And

1528
01:19:05.880 --> 01:19:08.359
<v Speaker 1>so that way, you know, I and my fellow what

1529
01:19:08.399 --> 01:19:11.039
<v Speaker 1>they started calling gray beards, because that was the last

1530
01:19:11.039 --> 01:19:15.239
<v Speaker 1>time I had this beard. We were like, okay, got it. Yeah,

1531
01:19:15.279 --> 01:19:17.800
<v Speaker 1>we know the deputy unders and the assistants and the

1532
01:19:18.359 --> 01:19:22.000
<v Speaker 1>you know, vice commanders and whatever on the ground, we

1533
01:19:22.039 --> 01:19:25.159
<v Speaker 1>can help with that. And so that was our utility

1534
01:19:25.199 --> 01:19:25.680
<v Speaker 1>and cobble.

1535
01:19:27.399 --> 01:19:30.039
<v Speaker 2>How long did that process go on with you guys

1536
01:19:30.039 --> 01:19:31.600
<v Speaker 2>the evacuation effort?

1537
01:19:32.199 --> 01:19:34.399
<v Speaker 1>About two weeks. That felt like two years.

1538
01:19:34.560 --> 01:19:34.760
<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

1539
01:19:34.960 --> 01:19:39.000
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I was just awake round the clock. Yeah, it

1540
01:19:39.079 --> 01:19:41.600
<v Speaker 1>was really hard. I say this now.

1541
01:19:42.920 --> 01:19:44.279
<v Speaker 3>I did before I retired.

1542
01:19:44.319 --> 01:19:47.319
<v Speaker 1>I went to the Intrepid Spirit Clinic for five weeks

1543
01:19:47.359 --> 01:19:49.960
<v Speaker 1>for TBI along with a bunch of other guys. And

1544
01:19:50.039 --> 01:19:52.479
<v Speaker 1>I had, over the course of my career, you know,

1545
01:19:53.239 --> 01:19:55.560
<v Speaker 1>sent many marines to see the psych and I was like, yeah,

1546
01:19:55.560 --> 01:19:57.199
<v Speaker 1>go man, it's totally cool. It's just like seeing a

1547
01:19:57.199 --> 01:20:00.319
<v Speaker 1>physical therapist or whatever else. In my head, I was like,

1548
01:20:00.319 --> 01:20:06.079
<v Speaker 1>for you, yeah, not for me, right, And then a

1549
01:20:06.119 --> 01:20:08.359
<v Speaker 1>buddy of mine I respect very very much from a

1550
01:20:08.479 --> 01:20:12.680
<v Speaker 1>very elite military formation, made it okay. And then I

1551
01:20:12.720 --> 01:20:15.199
<v Speaker 1>went to that program. I still didn't do it. And

1552
01:20:15.239 --> 01:20:16.760
<v Speaker 1>then I went to that program where it was just

1553
01:20:16.800 --> 01:20:18.159
<v Speaker 1>part of the game and you got to do it.

1554
01:20:18.520 --> 01:20:21.239
<v Speaker 1>And so I've kept seeing the same psych ever since.

1555
01:20:21.279 --> 01:20:23.560
<v Speaker 1>And the cob believe that was the only time in

1556
01:20:23.600 --> 01:20:27.239
<v Speaker 1>my life where I called to clinic because like, I

1557
01:20:27.279 --> 01:20:29.000
<v Speaker 1>got some shit I'm going to need to get ahead of.

1558
01:20:30.039 --> 01:20:33.319
<v Speaker 1>Because I had people calling me twenty four to seven,

1559
01:20:33.439 --> 01:20:36.680
<v Speaker 1>you know, my brother's getting murdered, or texting me pictures

1560
01:20:36.680 --> 01:20:38.800
<v Speaker 1>of you know, this is my father, he's dead. Can

1561
01:20:38.840 --> 01:20:42.319
<v Speaker 1>you get my uncle out, you know whatever? And it

1562
01:20:42.359 --> 01:20:44.920
<v Speaker 1>was just like I got to where when the little

1563
01:20:45.000 --> 01:20:48.600
<v Speaker 1>ding from the WhatsApp would go off, I would flinch.

1564
01:20:51.039 --> 01:20:52.800
<v Speaker 3>I learned to turn that thing off. I've never turned

1565
01:20:52.800 --> 01:20:54.760
<v Speaker 3>it back on. But it was a rough man.

1566
01:20:54.800 --> 01:20:57.720
<v Speaker 1>It was a rough time, but people did amazing things,

1567
01:20:57.720 --> 01:20:59.399
<v Speaker 1>none more so than the Afghans.

1568
01:21:00.119 --> 01:21:02.000
<v Speaker 2>The book that you worked on that came out of

1569
01:21:02.000 --> 01:21:04.119
<v Speaker 2>that is called Always Faithful People Good.

1570
01:21:04.319 --> 01:21:06.920
<v Speaker 1>That's out now, right, Oh yeah, it's been out since

1571
01:21:07.199 --> 01:21:09.000
<v Speaker 1>twenty two. I had to write one hundred and ten

1572
01:21:09.079 --> 01:21:14.319
<v Speaker 1>thousand words in four months.

1573
01:21:12.279 --> 01:21:15.199
<v Speaker 3>And get that out. Came out for Harper.

1574
01:21:16.640 --> 01:21:20.359
<v Speaker 1>Somebody optioned the movie rights before we even wrote the book.

1575
01:21:20.560 --> 01:21:23.359
<v Speaker 3>I mean, I don't think anything's ever come of that.

1576
01:21:23.520 --> 01:21:28.520
<v Speaker 1>But it's a good book. It's a good surmount of

1577
01:21:28.560 --> 01:21:31.600
<v Speaker 1>parochial obviously, but it's a really good story. How about that.

1578
01:21:31.640 --> 01:21:35.680
<v Speaker 1>Without evaluating the merit of the writing, it's a great story.

1579
01:21:35.840 --> 01:21:39.760
<v Speaker 2>And with the writing you today do a couple writing

1580
01:21:40.720 --> 01:21:45.119
<v Speaker 2>workshops with veterans, one in North Carolina and another at

1581
01:21:45.159 --> 01:21:46.359
<v Speaker 2>a TBI clinic.

1582
01:21:47.720 --> 01:21:52.079
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I do so. I got asked by a therapist

1583
01:21:52.119 --> 01:21:55.960
<v Speaker 1>in Asheville, North Carolina, to start an Eastern Carolina version

1584
01:21:56.640 --> 01:22:00.600
<v Speaker 1>of a program that the North Carolina Veterans Writing Alliance,

1585
01:22:00.600 --> 01:22:03.199
<v Speaker 1>which also operates as Brothers and Sisters like these is

1586
01:22:03.239 --> 01:22:06.880
<v Speaker 1>a bunch of Vietnam nets had started doing a writing

1587
01:22:06.960 --> 01:22:10.000
<v Speaker 1>therapy program at the VA in Asheville. They asked me

1588
01:22:10.039 --> 01:22:12.520
<v Speaker 1>to start it in Eastern Carolina. I could not get

1589
01:22:12.560 --> 01:22:16.159
<v Speaker 1>anybody to sign up for a in person writing thing

1590
01:22:16.399 --> 01:22:18.520
<v Speaker 1>just and I went on a tour. I hit every

1591
01:22:18.800 --> 01:22:21.840
<v Speaker 1>hit the VA, I hit every Veterans organization like, this

1592
01:22:22.000 --> 01:22:25.439
<v Speaker 1>is free, just want ten of you whatever. Nobody's biden.

1593
01:22:26.199 --> 01:22:28.880
<v Speaker 1>So I went on my Instagram account and was like, hey,

1594
01:22:29.279 --> 01:22:31.720
<v Speaker 1>here's what I'm going to do. If anybody wants to

1595
01:22:31.720 --> 01:22:33.680
<v Speaker 1>come on zoom and be part of it, you can.

1596
01:22:34.159 --> 01:22:36.439
<v Speaker 1>And so we're starting our fourth iteration of that on

1597
01:22:36.520 --> 01:22:40.640
<v Speaker 1>October first. It's eight weeks, it's Wednesday nights, it's free

1598
01:22:40.880 --> 01:22:43.319
<v Speaker 1>from I think we were doing it seven to eight thirty.

1599
01:22:43.359 --> 01:22:46.319
<v Speaker 1>I think this time around, I've got a number of

1600
01:22:46.319 --> 01:22:48.600
<v Speaker 1>repeat players, I got a number of new folks. And

1601
01:22:48.640 --> 01:22:51.159
<v Speaker 1>that one is a wide array of people, but it

1602
01:22:51.279 --> 01:22:55.159
<v Speaker 1>is wide open to anybody with a DD two fourteen

1603
01:22:55.600 --> 01:22:57.920
<v Speaker 1>or an active duty person and by active duty I

1604
01:22:57.920 --> 01:23:03.279
<v Speaker 1>mean serving guards person ever. And then I do one

1605
01:23:03.359 --> 01:23:07.039
<v Speaker 1>at the TBI Clinic from whence I came, and that

1606
01:23:07.199 --> 01:23:09.840
<v Speaker 1>is a four week version of the eight week group

1607
01:23:09.920 --> 01:23:12.680
<v Speaker 1>that I do, and that is an all active duty crowd.

1608
01:23:12.680 --> 01:23:17.680
<v Speaker 1>That's the cohorts going through the TBI clinic program. And

1609
01:23:17.800 --> 01:23:21.800
<v Speaker 1>both of them are deeply rewarding for similar and different reasons.

1610
01:23:22.760 --> 01:23:25.159
<v Speaker 2>Is the kind of intent to just help these people

1611
01:23:25.199 --> 01:23:28.600
<v Speaker 2>with whatever their project is, or like, are you trying

1612
01:23:28.600 --> 01:23:31.279
<v Speaker 2>to use writing as sort of I know there's a

1613
01:23:31.359 --> 01:23:33.279
<v Speaker 2>term the VA does when they have you, like, write

1614
01:23:33.319 --> 01:23:35.680
<v Speaker 2>about your experiences some sort of therapy.

1615
01:23:36.600 --> 01:23:39.239
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, we call it writing therapy. I tell them all

1616
01:23:39.239 --> 01:23:41.479
<v Speaker 1>the time, I'm not here to make write, make you writers.

1617
01:23:41.800 --> 01:23:44.960
<v Speaker 1>I'm here to make veterans right, because there's people that

1618
01:23:45.119 --> 01:23:50.319
<v Speaker 1>just need to unload stuff. And I've had like again,

1619
01:23:50.880 --> 01:23:52.880
<v Speaker 1>I think one of my active duty groups I had

1620
01:23:52.920 --> 01:23:56.000
<v Speaker 1>and it was a room full of real, live, tough guys.

1621
01:23:56.720 --> 01:23:59.239
<v Speaker 1>Like Actually the battalion that Tom Schuman about whom I

1622
01:23:59.239 --> 01:24:01.079
<v Speaker 1>wrote the book, one of the two people that were

1623
01:24:01.199 --> 01:24:04.239
<v Speaker 1>the book. It was third battying fifth Marines, dark Horse

1624
01:24:04.720 --> 01:24:07.520
<v Speaker 1>in twenty ten, and saying in dark Horse had the

1625
01:24:07.560 --> 01:24:12.439
<v Speaker 1>most injuries of any infantry battalion in the Afghani War.

1626
01:24:12.560 --> 01:24:15.279
<v Speaker 1>They had I think twenty five or twenty six marines killed.

1627
01:24:15.920 --> 01:24:18.680
<v Speaker 1>They had north of one hundred and ten one hundred

1628
01:24:18.720 --> 01:24:23.800
<v Speaker 1>and twenty single, double and trimple amputees. They had massive stuff.

1629
01:24:23.840 --> 01:24:25.479
<v Speaker 1>I had a guy who'd been a squad leader in

1630
01:24:25.520 --> 01:24:28.079
<v Speaker 1>that now he's a sertant major. He'd done multiple deployments

1631
01:24:28.079 --> 01:24:31.159
<v Speaker 1>to include that one, and I remember him, you know,

1632
01:24:31.279 --> 01:24:34.279
<v Speaker 1>just crying while he was reading. And it's an environment

1633
01:24:34.319 --> 01:24:36.239
<v Speaker 1>in which you're sitting around a table with raiders and

1634
01:24:36.279 --> 01:24:39.319
<v Speaker 1>seals and recon marines and amphibious friconk Corman and whatever,

1635
01:24:40.119 --> 01:24:42.520
<v Speaker 1>and nobody's looking at that guy weird because he's crying

1636
01:24:42.560 --> 01:24:46.640
<v Speaker 1>because they know exactly where he's coming from and would

1637
01:24:46.680 --> 01:24:51.760
<v Speaker 1>never ever deign to question it. Right. And then the

1638
01:24:51.800 --> 01:24:54.079
<v Speaker 1>guy whose cabin I was in that night on top

1639
01:24:54.119 --> 01:24:58.039
<v Speaker 1>of that mountain and barely able to communicate while trying

1640
01:24:58.039 --> 01:25:01.199
<v Speaker 1>to coordinate the evacuation evacuated, have a family from Cobble.

1641
01:25:03.119 --> 01:25:05.680
<v Speaker 1>That guy's a six foot five two and forty pounds

1642
01:25:05.720 --> 01:25:10.840
<v Speaker 1>country boy, no military history, the exact opposite, probably, But

1643
01:25:10.840 --> 01:25:12.680
<v Speaker 1>one thing he said to me about writing, He's like,

1644
01:25:13.479 --> 01:25:14.880
<v Speaker 1>if you want to be a writer, you got to

1645
01:25:14.920 --> 01:25:18.520
<v Speaker 1>be fearless and vulnerable. And I now think about that

1646
01:25:18.760 --> 01:25:20.920
<v Speaker 1>all the time, and I think about that in leadership,

1647
01:25:21.039 --> 01:25:23.119
<v Speaker 1>I think about that in writing. I think the success

1648
01:25:23.159 --> 01:25:25.359
<v Speaker 1>I've had, what success I've had as a writer, is

1649
01:25:25.439 --> 01:25:28.359
<v Speaker 1>because I took that to heart. You know, two years ago,

1650
01:25:28.399 --> 01:25:30.760
<v Speaker 1>I never would have said on a podcast, yeah, I

1651
01:25:30.760 --> 01:25:32.520
<v Speaker 1>go see it's like every four to six weeks. But

1652
01:25:32.560 --> 01:25:34.279
<v Speaker 1>I say that now because I hope somebody else will.

1653
01:25:36.000 --> 01:25:39.000
<v Speaker 1>And you know, it's like Kevin a paid best friend.

1654
01:25:39.039 --> 01:25:41.039
<v Speaker 1>I don't actually have a whole lot of stuff to

1655
01:25:41.079 --> 01:25:46.319
<v Speaker 1>talk about, but you know whatever, we chat and so

1656
01:25:47.119 --> 01:25:51.439
<v Speaker 1>I think fearlessness and vulnerability are critical to authentic leading

1657
01:25:51.560 --> 01:25:55.800
<v Speaker 1>to authentic writing, to authentic much of anything, and that

1658
01:25:55.800 --> 01:25:57.239
<v Speaker 1>that all came out of that time.

1659
01:25:59.520 --> 01:26:02.079
<v Speaker 2>I think we have a viewer question for your worth?

1660
01:26:02.439 --> 01:26:04.359
<v Speaker 2>Uh do you got that one up day?

1661
01:26:04.600 --> 01:26:07.640
<v Speaker 1>Give me one where you mentioned your Instagram?

1662
01:26:07.640 --> 01:26:09.399
<v Speaker 2>Where can people find you on social media?

1663
01:26:10.159 --> 01:26:13.960
<v Speaker 1>Yeah? So I've got my personal one, which unless you

1664
01:26:13.960 --> 01:26:15.760
<v Speaker 1>want to see pictures of my dog, you probably don't

1665
01:26:15.760 --> 01:26:18.920
<v Speaker 1>want to follow that one. It's it's at Worth dot

1666
01:26:18.960 --> 01:26:21.840
<v Speaker 1>Parker at w O R t H dot p A

1667
01:26:22.000 --> 01:26:26.399
<v Speaker 1>R k R. But I started one about books, primarily

1668
01:26:26.439 --> 01:26:30.960
<v Speaker 1>about conflict books and war books, certainly ones I think

1669
01:26:30.960 --> 01:26:33.840
<v Speaker 1>that don't get enough attention. But it's at Bookwar So

1670
01:26:33.840 --> 01:26:37.760
<v Speaker 1>it's B zero zero O K W A R And

1671
01:26:37.840 --> 01:26:39.600
<v Speaker 1>I do a lot of book reviews there. I do

1672
01:26:39.640 --> 01:26:41.399
<v Speaker 1>a lot of just talking every now and then I'll

1673
01:26:41.520 --> 01:26:43.479
<v Speaker 1>you know, I'll be like, oh, some young marines need

1674
01:26:43.520 --> 01:26:45.680
<v Speaker 1>to hear this, and then I'll get on there and

1675
01:26:45.840 --> 01:26:50.640
<v Speaker 1>you know, rip for three minutes. But it's it's good.

1676
01:26:50.880 --> 01:26:53.039
<v Speaker 1>I mean, I get some nice feedback on it and

1677
01:26:54.720 --> 01:26:56.479
<v Speaker 1>whatever there is people can reach out to me there.

1678
01:26:56.479 --> 01:26:59.039
<v Speaker 1>I've had folks hit me up with, you know, literature questions,

1679
01:26:59.119 --> 01:27:01.520
<v Speaker 1>but also to y gosh, you were a marine for

1680
01:27:01.520 --> 01:27:02.720
<v Speaker 1>a long time, what do you think about this?

1681
01:27:03.880 --> 01:27:04.439
<v Speaker 2>It's awesome?

1682
01:27:05.279 --> 01:27:05.680
<v Speaker 1>All right?

1683
01:27:05.720 --> 01:27:09.800
<v Speaker 4>We got a question from easy Is there anything you

1684
01:27:09.800 --> 01:27:12.720
<v Speaker 4>would like to see change in today's military and training

1685
01:27:12.840 --> 01:27:14.199
<v Speaker 4>structure or ethically?

1686
01:27:16.239 --> 01:27:20.319
<v Speaker 1>I think an ethical military is the distinction between us

1687
01:27:20.359 --> 01:27:25.279
<v Speaker 1>and savagery. I think that when you give up that

1688
01:27:25.640 --> 01:27:29.479
<v Speaker 1>aspect of your military force, you are giving up yourself

1689
01:27:29.560 --> 01:27:33.079
<v Speaker 1>and moreover, you're giving up the future of those service members.

1690
01:27:33.439 --> 01:27:35.600
<v Speaker 1>That's a great question, and I'm going to dig deeper

1691
01:27:35.640 --> 01:27:38.000
<v Speaker 1>into it than that the person may have thought, you know,

1692
01:27:38.000 --> 01:27:40.920
<v Speaker 1>they were asking for. You have an obligation as a

1693
01:27:41.000 --> 01:27:43.840
<v Speaker 1>leader to prepare your marine sailor service members what have

1694
01:27:44.000 --> 01:27:47.000
<v Speaker 1>you for the rest of their lives? And if you

1695
01:27:47.119 --> 01:27:49.920
<v Speaker 1>allow them to do things in a time in their

1696
01:27:49.960 --> 01:27:52.560
<v Speaker 1>life when their bodies and minds will allow them to

1697
01:27:52.920 --> 01:27:55.960
<v Speaker 1>that are outside the pale of humanity, they're going to

1698
01:27:56.039 --> 01:27:58.479
<v Speaker 1>contend with that stuff for the rest of their lives.

1699
01:27:59.880 --> 01:28:03.560
<v Speaker 1>I've had one marine from my platoon kill himself in

1700
01:28:03.640 --> 01:28:08.560
<v Speaker 1>the intervening years since we got back from Iraq. That

1701
01:28:08.800 --> 01:28:12.560
<v Speaker 1>wasn't entirely surprising to me. Tom Schumann, about whom I

1702
01:28:12.560 --> 01:28:15.199
<v Speaker 1>wrote the book, got deep into this, which is how

1703
01:28:15.239 --> 01:28:19.279
<v Speaker 1>Patrol Basi Ibata came to exist. And what he figured

1704
01:28:19.279 --> 01:28:21.680
<v Speaker 1>out is that the two things that are really contributing

1705
01:28:21.680 --> 01:28:24.560
<v Speaker 1>to vets suicide after his rifle company had I think

1706
01:28:24.600 --> 01:28:29.039
<v Speaker 1>three marines killed themselves in one week, is loss of

1707
01:28:29.079 --> 01:28:31.920
<v Speaker 1>connection number one when you get out. And then number

1708
01:28:31.920 --> 01:28:36.399
<v Speaker 1>two something that I think is incredibly pernicious and is

1709
01:28:36.439 --> 01:28:40.119
<v Speaker 1>the I was just a fication of veterans. Well, I

1710
01:28:40.159 --> 01:28:42.319
<v Speaker 1>was only a heavy equipment operator. I wasn't a sealed

1711
01:28:42.319 --> 01:28:45.199
<v Speaker 1>team six door kicker. So clearly I can't have problems.

1712
01:28:45.359 --> 01:28:47.199
<v Speaker 1>Yeah you do, buddy, and it's okay, and there's things

1713
01:28:47.239 --> 01:28:48.960
<v Speaker 1>that exist there for you. But you go back to

1714
01:28:49.000 --> 01:28:52.239
<v Speaker 1>the question they're asking. You have to keep guys within

1715
01:28:52.319 --> 01:28:55.359
<v Speaker 1>the left and right limits of morality and just war.

1716
01:28:55.399 --> 01:28:57.600
<v Speaker 1>And I've studied just war a lot in law school

1717
01:28:57.600 --> 01:29:01.199
<v Speaker 1>and since, because why while you know there's plenty of

1718
01:29:01.239 --> 01:29:03.119
<v Speaker 1>people who are like, it's war, man, you do anything

1719
01:29:03.159 --> 01:29:06.960
<v Speaker 1>you want, take a tumult. Two guys face in moments

1720
01:29:06.960 --> 01:29:10.039
<v Speaker 1>of exigency sure. You know, if you and I are

1721
01:29:10.079 --> 01:29:12.760
<v Speaker 1>fighting for our lives at the moment, I got zero

1722
01:29:12.840 --> 01:29:16.520
<v Speaker 1>problems smashing your head in with a rock. Once you

1723
01:29:16.680 --> 01:29:20.560
<v Speaker 1>are secured and the fight is over, I have all

1724
01:29:20.600 --> 01:29:24.600
<v Speaker 1>the problems in the world with anybody even contemplating that rock.

1725
01:29:25.680 --> 01:29:30.000
<v Speaker 1>And I think so. I do think ethics and morality

1726
01:29:30.000 --> 01:29:35.279
<v Speaker 1>training absolutely matter because there's a real difference between a

1727
01:29:35.319 --> 01:29:37.439
<v Speaker 1>soldier and I use that term with a small s

1728
01:29:38.359 --> 01:29:42.039
<v Speaker 1>in a very generic sense, between being a soldier and

1729
01:29:42.119 --> 01:29:43.199
<v Speaker 1>being a savage.

1730
01:29:43.520 --> 01:29:45.560
<v Speaker 3>And while I realized there's a really dumb T shirt

1731
01:29:45.560 --> 01:29:46.239
<v Speaker 3>culture out.

1732
01:29:46.119 --> 01:29:49.640
<v Speaker 1>There that thinks, you know, savagery is badass, most of

1733
01:29:49.680 --> 01:29:52.119
<v Speaker 1>those people have probably never truly whooped it on and

1734
01:29:52.159 --> 01:29:54.880
<v Speaker 1>they certainly probably never seen somebody's lower jaws slide off

1735
01:29:54.880 --> 01:29:56.319
<v Speaker 1>their face after you shot them a bunch.

1736
01:29:58.600 --> 01:30:03.119
<v Speaker 2>Yah, maybe there's but given the rate of veteran suicides

1737
01:30:03.159 --> 01:30:06.399
<v Speaker 2>we have, I think it's good to have a little

1738
01:30:06.399 --> 01:30:10.560
<v Speaker 2>bit of humility, Like, maybe we're gonna sideline the vet

1739
01:30:10.560 --> 01:30:12.600
<v Speaker 2>bro T shirts for a moment. We might not be

1740
01:30:12.760 --> 01:30:15.319
<v Speaker 2>so bad ass if we're having all these problems, and

1741
01:30:15.399 --> 01:30:17.239
<v Speaker 2>we should address those problems.

1742
01:30:18.359 --> 01:30:20.279
<v Speaker 1>Well, And what even is bad ass?

1743
01:30:20.680 --> 01:30:21.720
<v Speaker 2>Like, what does it mean?

1744
01:30:21.840 --> 01:30:24.199
<v Speaker 1>Yeah? I say to people all the time, especially when

1745
01:30:24.199 --> 01:30:26.840
<v Speaker 1>I do these therapy groups. You take me in slices.

1746
01:30:27.880 --> 01:30:30.800
<v Speaker 1>I'm anybody you need me to be, stereotype wise, And

1747
01:30:31.079 --> 01:30:33.199
<v Speaker 1>I wrote about this earlier. I'm doing story core for

1748
01:30:33.279 --> 01:30:35.279
<v Speaker 1>NPR tomorrow and they wanted to ask me how I

1749
01:30:35.279 --> 01:30:42.399
<v Speaker 1>identify and I am. Let's see, I'm a straight white

1750
01:30:42.399 --> 01:30:44.800
<v Speaker 1>male with a Southern accent. I have more guns in

1751
01:30:44.880 --> 01:30:47.279
<v Speaker 1>my gun cabinet than I actually know how many I have.

1752
01:30:47.680 --> 01:30:50.159
<v Speaker 1>I write about hunting and fishing for a living. I

1753
01:30:50.239 --> 01:30:52.279
<v Speaker 1>drive a four wheel drive pickup truck, and my main

1754
01:30:52.319 --> 01:30:56.359
<v Speaker 1>hangout partner is a laborator retriever. So that's one dude.

1755
01:30:57.520 --> 01:31:00.720
<v Speaker 1>My wife is an ACLU, former acl YOU lawyer and

1756
01:31:00.760 --> 01:31:05.920
<v Speaker 1>longtime civil libertarian. I'm pretty strongly engaged in civil libertarians.

1757
01:31:06.560 --> 01:31:10.119
<v Speaker 1>Most of the bands I listen to are definitively left

1758
01:31:10.119 --> 01:31:13.800
<v Speaker 1>of center. I am a former or at least i'm

1759
01:31:13.800 --> 01:31:20.720
<v Speaker 1>a licensed attorney myself, you know, Like how I'm anti

1760
01:31:20.720 --> 01:31:21.479
<v Speaker 1>death penalty?

1761
01:31:21.640 --> 01:31:24.159
<v Speaker 3>Like how do you characterize someone?

1762
01:31:24.199 --> 01:31:26.479
<v Speaker 1>And we're in this place in America where characterize someone

1763
01:31:26.520 --> 01:31:30.960
<v Speaker 1>by their whatever their optic is, right, you know, And

1764
01:31:31.039 --> 01:31:36.319
<v Speaker 1>so my only point there is you can't. And so

1765
01:31:36.399 --> 01:31:38.880
<v Speaker 1>when we start talking about what's a badass. Well, the

1766
01:31:38.880 --> 01:31:42.960
<v Speaker 1>most badass marine that I've ever served with, and I

1767
01:31:43.079 --> 01:31:46.920
<v Speaker 1>you know, as a redneck from the South, is a Manhattanite,

1768
01:31:48.279 --> 01:31:51.600
<v Speaker 1>half Jewish guy whose dad was liberated out of Auschwitz.

1769
01:31:52.399 --> 01:31:55.239
<v Speaker 1>And the guy's a straight dynamo and combat He's a

1770
01:31:55.319 --> 01:31:58.439
<v Speaker 1>straight student of the game. There is literally no one

1771
01:31:58.640 --> 01:32:01.119
<v Speaker 1>I would prefer to have by my side, in front

1772
01:32:01.119 --> 01:32:03.760
<v Speaker 1>of me or behind me in a gunfight. He's also

1773
01:32:04.279 --> 01:32:09.159
<v Speaker 1>absolutely a left wing Democrat, and he's a straight killer

1774
01:32:09.199 --> 01:32:12.439
<v Speaker 1>in a gunfight. But there are people who maybe would

1775
01:32:12.439 --> 01:32:14.239
<v Speaker 1>think to be badass, you can't be but one or

1776
01:32:14.279 --> 01:32:16.279
<v Speaker 1>the other, you know what I mean.

1777
01:32:16.359 --> 01:32:19.039
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it makes us uncomfortable that to have these multiple

1778
01:32:19.079 --> 01:32:20.079
<v Speaker 2>identities within you.

1779
01:32:21.319 --> 01:32:24.560
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and I think in America we're failing right now

1780
01:32:24.600 --> 01:32:26.800
<v Speaker 1>to understand. And I don't know the why of that.

1781
01:32:28.000 --> 01:32:30.000
<v Speaker 1>I don't know what social ill to ascribe it to,

1782
01:32:30.079 --> 01:32:32.880
<v Speaker 1>and it's probably you know, fifty or sixty social ills,

1783
01:32:32.880 --> 01:32:36.239
<v Speaker 1>but uh, it just the real point is people are complex,

1784
01:32:36.520 --> 01:32:39.159
<v Speaker 1>and you know, as a culture, we've got to address that.

1785
01:32:39.239 --> 01:32:44.479
<v Speaker 1>But within our veterans culture, when we try to simplify everything, well,

1786
01:32:44.479 --> 01:32:47.920
<v Speaker 1>he's worth partner, he's a force riekan guy and a raider. Okay, cool,

1787
01:32:48.079 --> 01:32:51.640
<v Speaker 1>he's worth partner. He's a freelance writer, you know, who

1788
01:32:51.720 --> 01:32:54.720
<v Speaker 1>occasionally breaks into tears when he looks his daughter, Like,

1789
01:32:54.920 --> 01:32:58.479
<v Speaker 1>who who is that guy? He's all of those guys, right,

1790
01:32:58.880 --> 01:33:02.199
<v Speaker 1>And so when we try to define ourselves as one

1791
01:33:02.279 --> 01:33:07.079
<v Speaker 1>or the other, we're a incredibly limiting and b putting

1792
01:33:07.079 --> 01:33:09.640
<v Speaker 1>a whole lot of constraints on other people that are

1793
01:33:09.680 --> 01:33:11.600
<v Speaker 1>not effective or helpful.

1794
01:33:12.039 --> 01:33:16.640
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, no, absolutely worth. I really appreciate you sharing your

1795
01:33:16.680 --> 01:33:19.720
<v Speaker 2>experiences with us. Is there any final thoughts, anything that

1796
01:33:19.760 --> 01:33:21.920
<v Speaker 2>we didn't cover that you'd like to get into tonight?

1797
01:33:23.439 --> 01:33:26.119
<v Speaker 1>You know, Like you say, anybody who's interested in writing

1798
01:33:26.119 --> 01:33:29.359
<v Speaker 1>therapy can reach out to me at that book where Instagram.

1799
01:33:29.600 --> 01:33:31.880
<v Speaker 1>I just need an email address and I'll get folks

1800
01:33:31.920 --> 01:33:36.119
<v Speaker 1>on it. But I think, you know, as I said

1801
01:33:36.159 --> 01:33:39.319
<v Speaker 1>in one of my random email or Instagram rants the

1802
01:33:39.319 --> 01:33:42.720
<v Speaker 1>other day, like you're enough, Like whatever your deal is,

1803
01:33:42.840 --> 01:33:44.760
<v Speaker 1>you're enough. If you threw your hand in the air

1804
01:33:45.079 --> 01:33:47.720
<v Speaker 1>and showed up to MEPs and you served three years

1805
01:33:47.760 --> 01:33:52.159
<v Speaker 1>and you never left Fort Irwin, you're enough. Yeah, you'd

1806
01:33:52.640 --> 01:33:57.079
<v Speaker 1>more than ninety nine point five percent of the country.

1807
01:33:57.760 --> 01:34:00.319
<v Speaker 1>And if you got shot at in the process, she

1808
01:34:00.359 --> 01:34:03.800
<v Speaker 1>did more than ninety nine point nine nine nine percent

1809
01:34:03.840 --> 01:34:07.680
<v Speaker 1>of the country as far as serving her art, the

1810
01:34:07.760 --> 01:34:11.439
<v Speaker 1>nation and her interests. And I think the more we

1811
01:34:11.520 --> 01:34:14.039
<v Speaker 1>recognize that and the more we reach out and go,

1812
01:34:14.520 --> 01:34:19.439
<v Speaker 1>that's the unifying factor that we have. You know, I

1813
01:34:19.479 --> 01:34:22.479
<v Speaker 1>probably have more in common with somebody with whom I'm

1814
01:34:22.520 --> 01:34:29.880
<v Speaker 1>diametrically politically opposed who also served than I do with

1815
01:34:30.520 --> 01:34:33.800
<v Speaker 1>somebody who's working on control in the narrative and didn't.

1816
01:34:34.079 --> 01:34:37.199
<v Speaker 1>But that sounds more conspiracy theorists than I mean too.

1817
01:34:39.439 --> 01:34:42.039
<v Speaker 2>We will have some links down the description to these

1818
01:34:42.079 --> 01:34:44.319
<v Speaker 2>different things in your social media that you mentioned.

1819
01:34:44.319 --> 01:34:44.560
<v Speaker 1>Worth.

1820
01:34:46.000 --> 01:34:48.000
<v Speaker 2>We'll stick all that down there in the description for

1821
01:34:48.039 --> 01:34:51.000
<v Speaker 2>folks that want to check it out. Everyone, thank you

1822
01:34:51.039 --> 01:34:53.239
<v Speaker 2>for joining us tonight. Thank you Worth for sharing some

1823
01:34:53.279 --> 01:34:56.960
<v Speaker 2>of your evening with us. I know the dog is

1824
01:34:57.000 --> 01:34:58.720
<v Speaker 2>getting the dog questions.

1825
01:34:58.760 --> 01:35:00.000
<v Speaker 1>I'm kind of blown away by that fact.

1826
01:35:00.960 --> 01:35:02.239
<v Speaker 2>What questions.

1827
01:35:02.720 --> 01:35:04.960
<v Speaker 1>I note that there were people out there asking questions

1828
01:35:05.000 --> 01:35:06.680
<v Speaker 1>in real time kind of blows me away. So thank

1829
01:35:06.760 --> 01:35:07.439
<v Speaker 1>you to those people.

1830
01:35:08.000 --> 01:35:13.239
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I appreciate whoever wrote that question into us. And

1831
01:35:14.119 --> 01:35:17.000
<v Speaker 2>Worth stay in touch and we'll talk next time.

1832
01:35:17.840 --> 01:35:19.159
<v Speaker 1>Okay. I'll look forward to it.

1833
01:35:19.239 --> 01:35:24.439
<v Speaker 2>All right, We'll see you guys next time as well. Hey, guys,

1834
01:35:24.479 --> 01:35:26.319
<v Speaker 2>I want to tell all of you today about a

1835
01:35:26.359 --> 01:35:29.439
<v Speaker 2>new newsletter that we're launching that encompasses both the team

1836
01:35:29.479 --> 01:35:33.680
<v Speaker 2>House podcast, the eyes On podcast, and the high Side

1837
01:35:33.920 --> 01:35:38.680
<v Speaker 2>news outlet, which I run with Sean Naylor. The newsletter

1838
01:35:38.800 --> 01:35:40.520
<v Speaker 2>is going to be once a week. It's going to

1839
01:35:40.560 --> 01:35:42.840
<v Speaker 2>come into your inbox and you're going to get the

1840
01:35:42.840 --> 01:35:46.880
<v Speaker 2>most current podcasts on eyes On and the Teamhouse and

1841
01:35:46.960 --> 01:35:50.960
<v Speaker 2>whatever's topical or current on the high Side. So it's

1842
01:35:51.039 --> 01:35:52.880
<v Speaker 2>another way for us to get the information out to

1843
01:35:52.920 --> 01:35:56.760
<v Speaker 2>you as social media algorithms are pretty iffy and you

1844
01:35:56.840 --> 01:35:59.279
<v Speaker 2>never really know what you're gonna get. So this is

1845
01:35:59.279 --> 01:36:01.239
<v Speaker 2>a once a week e mail. It'll slide into your

1846
01:36:01.279 --> 01:36:03.800
<v Speaker 2>inbox and it will have you know the greatest hits

1847
01:36:03.800 --> 01:36:04.399
<v Speaker 2>of that week.

1848
01:36:04.479 --> 01:36:07.680
<v Speaker 1>It's really good. Checking it out.

1849
01:36:07.760 --> 01:36:12.079
<v Speaker 2>The website for it is Teamhouse Podcast dot kit dot com,

1850
01:36:12.079 --> 01:36:16.920
<v Speaker 2>slash Join Teamhouse Podcast dot kit dot com slash join.

1851
01:36:17.560 --> 01:36:17.680
<v Speaker 1>Uh.

1852
01:36:17.840 --> 01:36:19.960
<v Speaker 2>You go there and you enter into your email list,

1853
01:36:20.159 --> 01:36:23.760
<v Speaker 2>or you enter your email into the little thing on

1854
01:36:23.800 --> 01:36:26.239
<v Speaker 2>the website and you're good to go and that'll be it.

1855
01:36:27.000 --> 01:36:29.720
<v Speaker 2>So we really appreciate your support and I hope you'll

1856
01:36:29.720 --> 01:36:30.680
<v Speaker 2>consider signing.

1857
01:36:30.479 --> 01:36:31.560
<v Speaker 1>Up the link.

1858
01:36:32.479 --> 01:36:34.840
<v Speaker 2>The link will also be down in the description if

1859
01:36:34.840 --> 01:36:38.600
<v Speaker 2>you're looking for it. There, and that's Teamhouse Podcast, dot

1860
01:36:38.720 --> 01:36:44.560
<v Speaker 2>kit k I, t Kilo India, Tango dot Com, Backslash,

1861
01:36:44.920 --> 01:36:45.159
<v Speaker 2>Join