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No purchase necessary void, We're prohibited 22 00:00:59.679 --> 00:01:02.320 by Law eighteen plus terms and conditions applying. 23 00:01:02.359 --> 00:01:03.600 See website for detail. 24 00:01:05.519 --> 00:01:18.400 Host Radio, you are now listening to True Murder The 25 00:01:18.439 --> 00:01:21.959 most shocking killers in true crime history and the authors 26 00:01:21.959 --> 00:01:28.319 that have written about them Gasey Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker VTK. 27 00:01:29.239 --> 00:01:33.040 Every week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking 28 00:01:33.159 --> 00:01:37.319 and infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with 29 00:01:37.359 --> 00:01:40.760 your host, journalist and author Dan Zupansky. 30 00:01:50.840 --> 00:01:53.280 Good Evening. This is your host Dan Zupanski for the 31 00:01:53.319 --> 00:01:55.959 program True Murder, The most shocking killers in true crime 32 00:01:56.079 --> 00:01:59.239 history and the authors that have written about them. A 33 00:01:59.280 --> 00:02:01.719 twelve year old boy cowers in his closet while a 34 00:02:01.799 --> 00:02:07.120 lunatic killer slaughters his family. A nursing student unwittingly opens 35 00:02:07.120 --> 00:02:09.159 her home to the serial killer on her front port. 36 00:02:09.280 --> 00:02:12.400 On her front porch, an eleven year old girl drifts 37 00:02:12.439 --> 00:02:14.759 alone at sea on a flimsy cork raft for almost 38 00:02:14.759 --> 00:02:18.199 four days after a mass murderer kills her vacationing family 39 00:02:18.240 --> 00:02:22.319 aboard a chartered yacht. A brave firefighter suddenly finds himself 40 00:02:22.360 --> 00:02:26.120 in the crosshairs of a racist sniper almost nine stories 41 00:02:26.120 --> 00:02:31.080 above the ground, and astonishingly, they all survived from Howard 42 00:02:31.159 --> 00:02:34.719 Unra's nineteen forty nine shooting rampage through a quiet New 43 00:02:34.759 --> 00:02:39.439 Jersey neighborhood to Louisiana serial killer Derrick Todd Lee's reign 44 00:02:39.479 --> 00:02:43.039 of Terror in two thousand and two, the corpses piled 45 00:02:43.120 --> 00:02:45.319 up and few lived to tell their tale of horror. 46 00:02:45.639 --> 00:02:49.120 Award winning journalist Ron Francell explores the wounded hearts and 47 00:02:49.199 --> 00:02:52.759 minds of the ordinary people these monsters couldn't kill. His 48 00:02:52.840 --> 00:02:56.639 mesmarine mesmerizing accounts crackle with gritty details to put the 49 00:02:56.680 --> 00:02:59.120 reader in the midst of the carnage and offer a 50 00:02:59.120 --> 00:03:03.199 front row seat on the complex, painful process of surviving 51 00:03:03.560 --> 00:03:06.919 the rest of their haunted lives. Delivered from Evil takes 52 00:03:06.960 --> 00:03:09.319 the reader on a pulse pounding dash through the murky 53 00:03:09.360 --> 00:03:12.639 intersection of pure evil and the potency of the human spirit. 54 00:03:13.080 --> 00:03:16.400 A journey into the darkest corners of the American crime scape. 55 00:03:16.879 --> 00:03:19.919 Delivered from Evil with my special guest, journalist and author 56 00:03:20.000 --> 00:03:22.800 Ron Francell. Welcome to the program, and thank you for 57 00:03:22.840 --> 00:03:26.639 agreeing to this interview. Ron Francell, Dan, thank you for 58 00:03:26.680 --> 00:03:27.039 having me. 59 00:03:27.120 --> 00:03:28.360 I'm just delighted to be here. 60 00:03:28.879 --> 00:03:30.639 Well, thank you very much. I'm sure we'll have a 61 00:03:30.639 --> 00:03:35.080 great interview. Now, you've written quite a few true crime books, 62 00:03:35.159 --> 00:03:39.439 or a few true crime books, maybe let us know why, 63 00:03:39.560 --> 00:03:41.879 what was your decision to sort of a well not 64 00:03:42.000 --> 00:03:44.719 the sort of, but to approach this true crime book 65 00:03:45.039 --> 00:03:47.759 from a completely different perspective, and tell us what that 66 00:03:47.840 --> 00:03:51.479 perspective was and why you decided to write a book 67 00:03:51.800 --> 00:03:53.680 from this unique perspective. 68 00:03:54.479 --> 00:03:59.960 Well. Delivered from Evil is a collection of ten profile 69 00:04:00.039 --> 00:04:05.319 files at its heart, and in each of these we 70 00:04:05.439 --> 00:04:09.560 have vivid portraits of these killers and the survivors as 71 00:04:09.599 --> 00:04:14.080 their paths converge and then of course explode into a 72 00:04:14.120 --> 00:04:21.800 billion pieces. And then we follow those survivors as they're 73 00:04:21.879 --> 00:04:25.040 left to pick up those pieces and try to put 74 00:04:25.079 --> 00:04:31.600 their lives back on track to something that looks a 75 00:04:31.680 --> 00:04:38.040 little bit like normal. I have a great affection for 76 00:04:38.240 --> 00:04:41.240 the survivor experience. It was at the heart of my 77 00:04:41.480 --> 00:04:45.360 first true crime book, The Darkest Night, which was a 78 00:04:45.439 --> 00:04:49.360 very intimate story because it happened to two friends of mine, 79 00:04:49.439 --> 00:04:54.079 two childhood friends of mine, and I wanted to capture 80 00:04:54.160 --> 00:04:57.600 some of that intimacy in Delivered from Evil. So in 81 00:04:57.639 --> 00:05:02.959 each of these ten stories, they're told in the narrative 82 00:05:03.079 --> 00:05:11.160 journalism style, where we're we're offering some dramatic interpretation of 83 00:05:11.160 --> 00:05:16.199 what happened, largely through the eyes of these survivors, and 84 00:05:17.240 --> 00:05:22.360 you know, I think that it makes it a much 85 00:05:22.399 --> 00:05:25.360 more personal story. And and for any readers who have 86 00:05:25.399 --> 00:05:28.279 read it, and those I think who will read it 87 00:05:28.439 --> 00:05:32.519 in the future, they'll get that. They'll they'll see a 88 00:05:32.600 --> 00:05:38.519 crime from a perspective that could be theirs right. 89 00:05:40.920 --> 00:05:43.959 Now. Another aspect that you that you have included in 90 00:05:44.000 --> 00:05:50.399 this book as well, is that you you purposely told 91 00:05:50.439 --> 00:05:54.439 of stories that are not so well known yet there 92 00:05:54.519 --> 00:05:59.040 was a certain magnitude to their crime that certainly warranted 93 00:05:59.319 --> 00:06:02.519 that examined from your book, not only be because of 94 00:06:02.560 --> 00:06:06.480 the victim's perspective and point of view. Tell us a 95 00:06:06.639 --> 00:06:10.720 little or a few of the ten profiles and historically 96 00:06:10.800 --> 00:06:12.399 where and when they occurred. 97 00:06:13.920 --> 00:06:18.240 Well, as you mentioned some of the you know, the 98 00:06:18.279 --> 00:06:23.759 heart of the matter in your introduction, it was about 99 00:06:24.000 --> 00:06:27.959 the survivors and not necessarily the killers. You know, I 100 00:06:28.160 --> 00:06:31.839 found that as I approached this story and the more 101 00:06:32.199 --> 00:06:35.920 of these survivors that I talked to, and I was 102 00:06:36.000 --> 00:06:39.759 aware that I was zeroing in on a handful of 103 00:06:40.240 --> 00:06:45.639 cases that most people probably hadn't heard of. I became 104 00:06:45.720 --> 00:06:49.000 aware that, you know, to the size of the headline 105 00:06:49.040 --> 00:06:52.000 didn't matter much to these people. They were in the 106 00:06:52.040 --> 00:06:55.720 line of fire, they were wounded, they could have died, 107 00:06:56.160 --> 00:07:01.519 They lost loved ones, and they live with with the 108 00:07:01.560 --> 00:07:08.040 aftermath of this almost as certainly as Representative Gabby Giffords 109 00:07:08.120 --> 00:07:12.800 will live forever with her wounds from the Tucson shooting 110 00:07:12.959 --> 00:07:18.720 a couple of months ago. So in my mind it 111 00:07:19.120 --> 00:07:24.920 became the story, became the survivor's story, and not necessarily 112 00:07:25.079 --> 00:07:29.040 the notoriety of the killer. So we have in this 113 00:07:29.079 --> 00:07:33.639 book we have these ten incidents. The first one and 114 00:07:34.000 --> 00:07:37.079 the earliest one, and the first one in the book 115 00:07:37.839 --> 00:07:43.920 is Howard Unru, a nineteen forty nine shooting spree in 116 00:07:44.040 --> 00:07:52.720 his quiet little neighborhood in Camden, New Jersey. Unru was 117 00:07:52.759 --> 00:07:59.160 a troubled World War Two veteran and ultimately some paranoid 118 00:07:59.279 --> 00:08:02.800 tendencies got the best of him and he, you know, 119 00:08:03.399 --> 00:08:08.199 walked through his neighborhood with a pistol, killing his own 120 00:08:08.319 --> 00:08:11.399 neighbors and a few people he didn't even know. He 121 00:08:11.439 --> 00:08:20.120 was very calm, very methodical, and very efficient. Among the 122 00:08:20.199 --> 00:08:27.000 people he killed was a father, mother, and grandmother of 123 00:08:27.160 --> 00:08:32.159 twelve year old Charles Cohen, who hid in a closet 124 00:08:32.639 --> 00:08:38.240 and escaped being killed as his whole family was but 125 00:08:38.399 --> 00:08:43.279 unru you know, killed I think thirteen that day, and 126 00:08:45.000 --> 00:08:52.240 he became erroneously he got the label of the father 127 00:08:52.399 --> 00:08:57.240 of mass murder in America. And he wasn't the first 128 00:08:57.360 --> 00:09:01.720 mass murderer in America. He wasn't he and the most 129 00:09:01.720 --> 00:09:06.879 prolific mass murderer to nineteen forty nine in America. But 130 00:09:08.600 --> 00:09:13.639 something he did captured the imagination of the media and 131 00:09:13.720 --> 00:09:18.679 of the people, and he did set in motion sort 132 00:09:18.679 --> 00:09:21.799 of what has been, you know, a long history of 133 00:09:22.799 --> 00:09:28.639 mass shootings here. So he's one of the more recognizable 134 00:09:28.759 --> 00:09:34.320 names in there. The Lubi's Cafeteria killing in nineteen ninety 135 00:09:34.440 --> 00:09:40.120 one in Colleen, Texas, where George Hanard crashes his truck 136 00:09:40.360 --> 00:09:44.559 through the front windows of this cafeteria and then begins 137 00:09:44.600 --> 00:09:53.039 methodically killing the diners inside and kills ultimately twenty three 138 00:09:53.080 --> 00:09:54.559 and wounds many more. 139 00:09:56.799 --> 00:09:57.600 We have. 140 00:09:59.120 --> 00:10:03.840 A little known case from nineteen seventy three of a 141 00:10:03.960 --> 00:10:09.919 Navy veteran, a black man named Mark Essex, who becomes 142 00:10:10.039 --> 00:10:14.480 radicalized in the Black Panthers and decides that he needs 143 00:10:14.519 --> 00:10:20.080 to lash out against white oppression, and he sets fires 144 00:10:20.799 --> 00:10:28.279 all over a New Orleans hotel and begins killing white people. 145 00:10:28.519 --> 00:10:32.600 In fact, very deliberately skips over many black people that 146 00:10:32.639 --> 00:10:38.639 he comes across during this day long siege. And the 147 00:10:38.679 --> 00:10:41.840 survivor that I talk about in Delivered from Evil is 148 00:10:41.919 --> 00:10:45.720 a firefighter who is responding to these fires, hoping to 149 00:10:45.799 --> 00:10:50.000 save people, and he literally comes face to face with 150 00:10:50.080 --> 00:10:54.080 this killer, this sniper and a high powered rifle and 151 00:10:54.279 --> 00:10:57.799 almost nine stories in the air as he's climbing the ladder. 152 00:10:57.919 --> 00:11:00.600 So a harrowing moment, as you can imagine. 153 00:11:00.799 --> 00:11:01.240 Sure. 154 00:11:02.279 --> 00:11:07.080 The McDonald's massacre in nineteen eighty four in Santa Seidro, California, 155 00:11:08.000 --> 00:11:15.480 a very famous mass murder, and I profile in this book. 156 00:11:17.559 --> 00:11:20.600 He was a twelve year old boy, Keith Martin's twelve 157 00:11:20.679 --> 00:11:23.840 year old boy who hid under a table and was 158 00:11:23.919 --> 00:11:28.480 shielded from being killed by the father of his best friend. 159 00:11:29.480 --> 00:11:32.080 In the end, his best friend and his best friend's 160 00:11:32.120 --> 00:11:36.480 mother are killed in that massacre, but Keith survives. And 161 00:11:37.840 --> 00:11:41.519 if that weren't harrowing enough, the story of his next 162 00:11:42.200 --> 00:11:47.879 eight or nine years dealing with this post traumatic stress 163 00:11:48.720 --> 00:11:54.480 will will curl your hair. I mean, it is in 164 00:11:54.559 --> 00:11:58.960 many ways more horrifying than what he went through laying 165 00:11:59.000 --> 00:12:03.000 there under that table. In the McDonald's. So they're all 166 00:12:03.039 --> 00:12:08.480 in that vein and again all put a lot of 167 00:12:10.240 --> 00:12:13.639 a lot of their energy into the perspective of the survivor. 168 00:12:15.480 --> 00:12:19.840 Now, you must have had some common results and common 169 00:12:19.919 --> 00:12:23.679 characteristics that you saw for the most part between all 170 00:12:23.720 --> 00:12:27.159 of these victims, after all your research, through all of 171 00:12:27.159 --> 00:12:29.679 these harrowing stories. What would be the thing that you 172 00:12:29.720 --> 00:12:32.759 would say is most common between all of the survivors. 173 00:12:32.799 --> 00:12:35.519 You talked a little bit about forgiveness, But tell us 174 00:12:35.519 --> 00:12:37.120 what you know. I don't want to put words of 175 00:12:37.159 --> 00:12:39.919 your mouth. Tell us what was the common commonality you 176 00:12:40.000 --> 00:12:42.720 found between most of these or all of these victims. 177 00:12:43.399 --> 00:12:47.759 Well, they're good and bad. The bad things are that 178 00:12:47.799 --> 00:12:54.480 they all they all went through years, not months, not weeks, 179 00:12:54.600 --> 00:13:08.120 not days, years of nightmare and sleeplessness and paranoia. They've 180 00:13:08.200 --> 00:13:12.279 developed trust issues, as you might imagine. They had very 181 00:13:12.399 --> 00:13:16.240 very complex feelings about what had happened to them and 182 00:13:16.360 --> 00:13:23.399 why they all avoided at some point in that time. 183 00:13:23.480 --> 00:13:26.360 And I hasten to add that some of the people 184 00:13:26.399 --> 00:13:30.399 profiled in the book are still on that journey. They 185 00:13:30.480 --> 00:13:35.720 haven't completely returned to anything that looks like normal yet, 186 00:13:36.120 --> 00:13:40.440 but they're getting there. But they'll dill avoid certain people 187 00:13:40.639 --> 00:13:45.600 and places and situations that remind them of their tragedy. 188 00:13:45.360 --> 00:13:49.759 They've stuffed their emotional responses down a little bit and 189 00:13:49.840 --> 00:13:54.799 kind of purposely numbed them among them. Among these people, 190 00:13:54.840 --> 00:13:59.120 I spent as much as ten days to two weeks 191 00:13:58.759 --> 00:14:03.080 with the each of these survivors. I went to them 192 00:14:04.000 --> 00:14:11.320 and spent intensive time in interviews with them, and I 193 00:14:11.440 --> 00:14:16.480 found that almost in every case, the first day or 194 00:14:16.559 --> 00:14:19.440 so was spent just listening to a story that they'd 195 00:14:19.480 --> 00:14:26.480 told a thousand times, and after that they started they increasingly, 196 00:14:26.720 --> 00:14:30.559 for the next couple of weeks, had to answer questions 197 00:14:30.600 --> 00:14:33.600 that sometimes they hadn't even thought about before, and they 198 00:14:33.639 --> 00:14:36.799 had they had to summon up emotions that they had 199 00:14:36.919 --> 00:14:41.879 pushed down. In many cases, of course, you can imagine 200 00:14:41.919 --> 00:14:44.159 we're doing interviews, and I would often say, Hey, let's 201 00:14:44.159 --> 00:14:45.919 go get some lunch, or let's go get some dinner 202 00:14:46.000 --> 00:14:49.840 or something. In the cases of for instance, Keith Martins 203 00:14:49.919 --> 00:14:54.960 from the McDonald's or Susanna Gracia Hup from the Luby's cafeteria, 204 00:14:55.360 --> 00:14:59.360 they were they were visibly nervous about going to a restaurant, 205 00:15:01.519 --> 00:15:05.399 and even though they would always go, they I would 206 00:15:05.879 --> 00:15:12.000 always notice them watching the door, you know, positioning themselves 207 00:15:12.039 --> 00:15:17.120 in what they believed was a safe location. And in 208 00:15:17.919 --> 00:15:22.200 both of those cases, we are, you know, twenty or 209 00:15:22.200 --> 00:15:27.000 more years past the event. But that's how haunted these 210 00:15:27.000 --> 00:15:31.799 people are. Many of them turned to alcohol and drugs 211 00:15:31.840 --> 00:15:35.279 to kind of dull their pain and this sense of 212 00:15:35.360 --> 00:15:41.360 helplessness that they have. Most of them developed survivor guilt. 213 00:15:41.679 --> 00:15:47.759 They didn't understand and couldn't compute why they survived when 214 00:15:48.159 --> 00:15:55.279 other people didn't. Most of them need to talk about 215 00:15:55.320 --> 00:15:59.600 their experiences, or did need to talk about their experiences, 216 00:16:00.879 --> 00:16:09.320 but people around them sometimes frustrated that or or in 217 00:16:09.480 --> 00:16:14.120 some of the successful cases, made it possible. So I 218 00:16:14.200 --> 00:16:18.279 came to the conclusion that of a survivor of this 219 00:16:18.360 --> 00:16:21.960 kind of event really needs somebody to listen to them. 220 00:16:22.399 --> 00:16:26.600 And I hope that some of the survivors of the 221 00:16:26.639 --> 00:16:30.559 Tucson tragedy have those people. The fact is that some 222 00:16:30.639 --> 00:16:34.080 of these people will. Some of the survivors that go 223 00:16:34.200 --> 00:16:40.519 through this they just never survive or they just never recover. 224 00:16:40.679 --> 00:16:45.960 Really they kind of just stop and just wait to die. 225 00:16:46.559 --> 00:16:50.039 In effect, they have already died now. They just need 226 00:16:50.080 --> 00:16:54.600 to stop walking around. And that's the sad part of this. 227 00:16:54.759 --> 00:16:57.879 Many of the people that I considered for this book 228 00:16:58.440 --> 00:17:01.440 had sort of stalled out in. 229 00:17:01.879 --> 00:17:05.119 Lucky Land Casino, asking people what's the weirdest place you've 230 00:17:05.119 --> 00:17:05.839 gotten lucky? 231 00:17:06.160 --> 00:17:08.880 Lucky in line at the Delhi I guess ah, in 232 00:17:08.960 --> 00:17:10.920 my dentist's office more than once. 233 00:17:11.039 --> 00:17:12.640 Actually do I have to say? 234 00:17:12.839 --> 00:17:13.359 Yes? You do? 235 00:17:13.559 --> 00:17:16.000 In the car before my kid's PTA meeting? 236 00:17:16.240 --> 00:17:19.640 Really, yes, excuse me, what's the weirdest place you've gotten lucky? 237 00:17:19.839 --> 00:17:22.440 I never win and tell well, there you have it. 238 00:17:22.440 --> 00:17:25.279 You can get lucky anywhere playing at lucky landsloughts dot 239 00:17:25.319 --> 00:17:28.200 com play for free right now? Are you feeling lucky? No, 240 00:17:28.279 --> 00:17:29.720 We're just necessary for what we're going to my long 241 00:17:29.720 --> 00:17:31.559 eighteen plus terms conditions of plus what's every day. 242 00:17:31.440 --> 00:17:37.640 Gets, and we're not recovering. So I think that that's 243 00:17:38.000 --> 00:17:43.000 a sad part of this. But the good stuff, the 244 00:17:43.160 --> 00:17:48.640 lucky ones, I think they make a certain piece with 245 00:17:48.799 --> 00:17:53.880 their monsters. And that's why I talk about forgiveness. I'm 246 00:17:53.880 --> 00:17:59.160 not really talking about it in religious terms or faithful terms. 247 00:17:59.200 --> 00:18:05.240 I'm talking of about it, and most of these survivors 248 00:18:05.319 --> 00:18:10.880 would wouldn't talk about it as a religious element. They 249 00:18:10.920 --> 00:18:17.880 would talk about as as a kind of realization that 250 00:18:18.119 --> 00:18:25.839 they couldn't move forward until their monsters no longer played 251 00:18:25.880 --> 00:18:28.119 a role in their life, or at least didn't play 252 00:18:28.160 --> 00:18:33.000 a starring role. They came to know that, you know, 253 00:18:33.039 --> 00:18:39.400 they couldn't possibly hope to regain any of their equilibrium, 254 00:18:40.440 --> 00:18:45.759 you know, unless they sort of revoked permission for Charles 255 00:18:45.799 --> 00:18:50.759 Whitman and James Huberty and Derek Toddley to influence their 256 00:18:50.839 --> 00:18:57.279 choices anymore. Now, these people haven't forgotten what happened, you know, 257 00:18:58.039 --> 00:19:01.720 and they and accepting one one case among these ten, 258 00:19:02.960 --> 00:19:06.400 they haven't absolved to their killers, or there would be killers. 259 00:19:06.960 --> 00:19:11.079 They haven't said it's okay. I understand they don't feel 260 00:19:11.079 --> 00:19:19.799 that way. But I think each of them, each of them, 261 00:19:19.920 --> 00:19:26.519 has limited their monsters roles in their life, and that's, 262 00:19:27.279 --> 00:19:30.799 you know, I think, a step in the right direction 263 00:19:31.079 --> 00:19:35.200 for them, and each of them, each of them understands 264 00:19:35.319 --> 00:19:39.359 that they got a gift on that day. They were 265 00:19:39.400 --> 00:19:44.799 given life when people all around them were dying. And 266 00:19:44.960 --> 00:19:48.279 in that sense, when I finished this book, I had 267 00:19:48.279 --> 00:19:52.200 this sense that if these ten people can recover kind 268 00:19:52.200 --> 00:19:55.880 of get back to normal, then the rest of us 269 00:19:55.920 --> 00:19:56.400 have hope. 270 00:19:57.480 --> 00:20:01.240 Right now, I wanted to talk about because you've been 271 00:20:01.279 --> 00:20:05.319 talking about how the survivor recovers, and you talk about 272 00:20:05.519 --> 00:20:08.680 some of the bad elements. Obviously the obvious bad elements, 273 00:20:08.680 --> 00:20:11.119 but a lot of these characters in this book, and 274 00:20:11.279 --> 00:20:14.720 including what we'll start with is Charles Cohen, is that 275 00:20:14.759 --> 00:20:18.079 these people were married and had children. So at least 276 00:20:18.119 --> 00:20:20.559 in my mind, that seems to be a good sign 277 00:20:20.680 --> 00:20:23.640 of recovery, if you can move on enough to find 278 00:20:23.640 --> 00:20:26.240 a mate that can deal with you despite this these 279 00:20:26.319 --> 00:20:30.599 nightmares and this certainly post traumatic stress disorder from all 280 00:20:30.640 --> 00:20:33.119 of these people. But the thing is, what you had 281 00:20:33.119 --> 00:20:36.039 said was that most of these people somehow put this 282 00:20:36.720 --> 00:20:39.480 away at least try to not have it affect them. 283 00:20:39.759 --> 00:20:43.839 They didn't to absolve themselves of this. But Charles Cohen 284 00:20:43.920 --> 00:20:49.680 wanted to see this person leave this planet or so 285 00:20:49.799 --> 00:20:52.480 he was a little bit different. But I thought that this, 286 00:20:52.720 --> 00:20:55.279 especially to start the book. All the stories are fascinating, 287 00:20:55.319 --> 00:20:59.160 but especially I thought was the Charles Cohen story, because, 288 00:20:59.200 --> 00:21:01.960 like you say, at twelve years old, and I think 289 00:21:02.319 --> 00:21:05.720 that if you could talk a little bit about just 290 00:21:05.799 --> 00:21:08.200 the day in question too, that he had thought that 291 00:21:08.279 --> 00:21:12.039 maybe his mother had just died, his grandmother, I believe 292 00:21:12.119 --> 00:21:14.640 Rose had put him in the closet to hide, but 293 00:21:14.880 --> 00:21:18.400 his horror started progressive. He had not only did he 294 00:21:18.400 --> 00:21:20.759 hear this whole thing go down and then found his 295 00:21:20.839 --> 00:21:24.720 mother dead, that he also didn't realize till right away 296 00:21:24.759 --> 00:21:27.960 that his whole family was gone. And then from there, 297 00:21:28.720 --> 00:21:31.480 maybe talk a little bit more about Charles Cohen because 298 00:21:31.480 --> 00:21:33.920 it was unique in his recovery. Not only did he 299 00:21:34.000 --> 00:21:38.599 have all these horrible things at a young age embedded 300 00:21:38.640 --> 00:21:41.119 in his mind, but the way he recovered and the 301 00:21:41.160 --> 00:21:49.000 fascinating story of how Howard Unra becomes sort of more 302 00:21:49.440 --> 00:21:54.400 continual pain for Charles Cohen with what turn of events 303 00:21:54.440 --> 00:21:58.720 happened because of Howard Unraw and his case and what 304 00:21:58.759 --> 00:22:01.480 they do with his court case. 305 00:22:01.599 --> 00:22:05.359 Right well, you know, Charles is a twelve year old boy. 306 00:22:05.839 --> 00:22:10.240 It's the day before school starts, or it's it's a 307 00:22:10.319 --> 00:22:13.599 day or two before school starts, and his grandmother has 308 00:22:13.640 --> 00:22:16.559 promised him a trip into Philadelphia to buy some school 309 00:22:16.599 --> 00:22:18.440 clothes and that sort of thing, and so he's kind 310 00:22:18.440 --> 00:22:21.559 of anxiously waiting for this, and he's sitting at the window, 311 00:22:21.759 --> 00:22:24.519 the second story window of his father's drug store in 312 00:22:25.079 --> 00:22:30.559 this little neighborhood of Camden, and he sees Unrude, their 313 00:22:30.559 --> 00:22:33.759 next door neighbor, walking down the street firing a gun, 314 00:22:33.839 --> 00:22:37.720 and he watches as unru actually walks up to somebody 315 00:22:37.799 --> 00:22:40.720 and shoots him, and he sounds the alarm, you know, 316 00:22:40.799 --> 00:22:46.640 he yells, you know, he's shooting people. His mother and 317 00:22:46.799 --> 00:22:50.119 father are down the stairs in the drug store. She 318 00:22:50.319 --> 00:22:56.160 runs upstairs. Charles is hidden in the closet. Quickly, Unrum 319 00:22:56.880 --> 00:23:00.160 comes through the drug store, kills the father who's trying 320 00:23:00.200 --> 00:23:04.400 to get away, kills the mother, the grandmother, and then 321 00:23:04.519 --> 00:23:08.200 leaves without finding Charles. And he actually had an ax 322 00:23:08.279 --> 00:23:10.759 to grind with Charles because Charles was a musician and 323 00:23:10.880 --> 00:23:14.640 played his trumpet at night and it bothered Unrue to 324 00:23:14.759 --> 00:23:19.240 no end, and he intended to kill Charles, but he 325 00:23:19.319 --> 00:23:24.559 moved on on this little walk of death, and Charles 326 00:23:24.720 --> 00:23:30.880 was left alive. So Charles now is an orphan. Unrue 327 00:23:32.480 --> 00:23:33.799 is arrested. 328 00:23:35.200 --> 00:23:35.279 And. 329 00:23:36.839 --> 00:23:40.640 It's very rare for a mass murderer to actually survive 330 00:23:40.799 --> 00:23:46.079 these events, but here he is. He's in police custody. 331 00:23:46.480 --> 00:23:50.039 He admits what he's done, he describes it in great detail, 332 00:23:50.599 --> 00:23:56.039 and he's immediately determined by the prosecutor to be insane. 333 00:23:56.119 --> 00:24:02.839 And so he's essentially taken from the police station to 334 00:24:02.039 --> 00:24:07.720 the state hospital in New Jersey, where he spends the 335 00:24:07.759 --> 00:24:13.359 next sixty years of his life, never standing trial, never 336 00:24:13.440 --> 00:24:19.960 going to court on any of these charges. So here's 337 00:24:20.039 --> 00:24:25.440 this little boy, this little orphan. He bounces around with 338 00:24:25.480 --> 00:24:29.960 some family for a while, never talking about this, and 339 00:24:30.039 --> 00:24:33.920 probably never being allowed to talk about this, and he 340 00:24:33.960 --> 00:24:37.799 pushes it deep down inside. Men of that of those 341 00:24:38.039 --> 00:24:42.000 the forties, you know, of that time, and we're expected 342 00:24:42.079 --> 00:24:47.880 to live with their disappointments, live with their pain, and 343 00:24:47.920 --> 00:24:52.519 not complain. And Charles grew up in that mold. He 344 00:24:53.160 --> 00:24:56.240 pushed it all down. He never talked about it. He 345 00:24:57.200 --> 00:25:01.400 grows up to be to find the woman he's going 346 00:25:01.440 --> 00:25:04.440 to marry, but he doesn't even tell her until their 347 00:25:04.480 --> 00:25:09.319 wedding night what has happened to him, and then he 348 00:25:09.359 --> 00:25:13.440 never really mentions it again. He has three daughters. They 349 00:25:13.480 --> 00:25:17.559 grow up to be adults. And in the nineteen in 350 00:25:17.599 --> 00:25:23.759 the early nineteen eighties, Unrue, still in the insane asylum, 351 00:25:24.400 --> 00:25:32.799 wants some a little extra freedom. This request necessitates a 352 00:25:32.880 --> 00:25:39.079 court hearing. Charles is faced with this decision. Does he 353 00:25:39.200 --> 00:25:45.440 keep his secret or does he step up and speak 354 00:25:45.480 --> 00:25:48.640 on behalf of the dead, on behalf of his wiped 355 00:25:48.680 --> 00:25:55.319 out family, against a little more freedom for this insane killer. 356 00:25:56.920 --> 00:26:01.839 He decides he's going to speak up, literally comes out 357 00:26:03.640 --> 00:26:10.119 and becomes the vocal representative for all the people who 358 00:26:10.160 --> 00:26:14.319 were injured or killed that day, and maybe by that 359 00:26:14.440 --> 00:26:19.559 time a lot of people who who had gone through 360 00:26:19.599 --> 00:26:27.599 similar circumstances. So you're along the way. A fascinating little 361 00:26:27.640 --> 00:26:32.400 tidbit that I learned was along the way he left 362 00:26:32.920 --> 00:26:36.680 his parents' drug store that and never went back. He 363 00:26:36.799 --> 00:26:40.680 took some of his possessions in a suitcase. He later 364 00:26:40.720 --> 00:26:45.480 turned that suitcase into a kind of time capsule. He 365 00:26:45.920 --> 00:26:51.039 would put clippings and pictures and all kinds of artifacts 366 00:26:51.599 --> 00:26:54.799 and mementos of this event and stick them in that 367 00:26:54.839 --> 00:26:58.880 suitcase and keep it hidden. He successfully hid it all 368 00:26:58.960 --> 00:27:03.880 those years. By the time we got to know each other, 369 00:27:04.319 --> 00:27:11.319 he had told me that his dream was that someday 370 00:27:11.400 --> 00:27:14.559 Unru would die, and that he would take that suitcase 371 00:27:14.599 --> 00:27:19.759 out and bury it, and in a sense he would 372 00:27:19.759 --> 00:27:25.680 be burying he would be burying the memory and the 373 00:27:25.759 --> 00:27:31.279 haunt that that had collected over all these years. As 374 00:27:31.359 --> 00:27:35.400 it happened, he died about six weeks before Unru died 375 00:27:35.519 --> 00:27:38.799 in two thousand and nine and he didn't get a 376 00:27:38.880 --> 00:27:41.720 chance to do that. But after his death, I was 377 00:27:41.799 --> 00:27:45.359 privileged to be able to look through that suitcase and 378 00:27:46.200 --> 00:27:52.000 essentially feel his memories and feel his haunt through the 379 00:27:52.000 --> 00:27:57.960 things that he had put there. He hated Unru, He 380 00:27:58.039 --> 00:28:03.839 absolutely hated him. I say forgiveness, it's not in the 381 00:28:03.880 --> 00:28:07.960 traditional sense. All Charles understood was that he couldn't let 382 00:28:08.160 --> 00:28:12.880 un ruin the rest of his life, the life that 383 00:28:12.960 --> 00:28:18.000 came after twelve years old, and that was his forgiveness. 384 00:28:18.480 --> 00:28:22.960 And ultimately he understood his role was to speak up 385 00:28:23.000 --> 00:28:27.720 for the dead, and he did that eloquently. 386 00:28:30.440 --> 00:28:32.599 And he found quite a bit of catharsis you had 387 00:28:32.599 --> 00:28:36.440 said in that in that standing up for other people's 388 00:28:36.480 --> 00:28:39.279 rights and coming out of the closet. So that was 389 00:28:39.359 --> 00:28:41.839 to his benefit in the healing process, wasn't it. 390 00:28:42.079 --> 00:28:48.000 Absolutely? And I think just as all of these people 391 00:28:48.279 --> 00:28:53.440 are somewhere on a road back to normal, there's a 392 00:28:53.480 --> 00:28:56.759 piece of each one of them too that will never 393 00:28:56.880 --> 00:29:00.799 be normal again. And in Charles' case, I think this 394 00:29:00.799 --> 00:29:06.359 this grinding hatred that he had for this this killer. 395 00:29:06.799 --> 00:29:11.000 As he said, you know, Unru, one of the things 396 00:29:11.039 --> 00:29:13.240 Unru wanted while he was in the asylum was to 397 00:29:13.279 --> 00:29:16.279 live closer to his aged mother so that he could 398 00:29:16.400 --> 00:29:19.880 visit with her. She would visit him quite often while 399 00:29:19.960 --> 00:29:25.720 she was alive. And but but one of the things 400 00:29:25.839 --> 00:29:29.440 Charles said in opposing this new freedom within the asylum 401 00:29:29.880 --> 00:29:32.240