Speaker 1: You're listening to a classic edition of the Unknown Origins
Radio show here on the Paranormal UK Radio Network.
Speaker 2: This is Nick Redfern and you're listening to Unknown Origins Radio.
Speaker 3: We live in a world filled with the unknown. You
can't handle it through. I must tad as hell, but
I'm not trying to take this anymore.
Speaker 1: Game over, man, Game over. I got your name, I
got your mask.
Speaker 3: We will not go quietly into the night. We will
not vanish.
Speaker 4: Not a night.
Speaker 3: Welcome to Unknown Origin.
Speaker 1: And good evening everybody. Welcome to another live edition of
Unknown Origins Radio. We're on Unknown Origins Radio dot com
and we are also broadcasting live on talkstream Live and
Jersey Talk Radio dot com, where you can watch the
live video feed. I'm your host, Mark Johnson, and joining
us down from their studios in Flemington at the Jersey
Talk Radio Studios. Mister Bruce Pearson, how are you tonight, Bruce?
Speaker 3: Excellent?
Speaker 5: Mark, Thanks good to be here. Great weather for a change,
and looking forward to tonight's great. We've got some great guests,
so I'm looking forward to a great show.
Speaker 1: Yes, I'm really excited about this one. So we're gonna
get right to everything first, of all, we have to
say hi to Irene Alan Block all the way over
in the UK tonight. How you doing, Irene.
Speaker 6: I'm doing fine. Sounds like it's going to be a
good night tonight.
Speaker 1: I think it will be. We just had a thunderstorm
roll through here a little bit ago, so it just
got me in that, you know, electrified mood.
Speaker 7: So I'm I'm already to yeah, yeah, you know, you
know it's it's we're gonna weird period of time right
now because everything that's going on here, especially in the
United States, which thankfully you don't have to put up with, Irene, the.
Speaker 1: Political season, the presidential race season, it's getting crazier and crazier,
and I just feel like, you know, the nuts have
taken over the crazy house. It's a it's a very
unique time in our history.
Speaker 3: I think.
Speaker 1: I don't really think it's such a good thing, but
it's definitely entertaining. It like like watching a car wreck
in process. So, yeah, this is going to be an
interesting next few months. Bruser, How is your week?
Speaker 3: This week? Very hectic?
Speaker 5: We're in the studio with Food Network. Just barely made
it down here to the studio here in time, so
it's it's keeping busy, but you know, it's all good.
Like I said, the weather's broken, so it's you know,
around sixty degrees and that's all.
Speaker 3: We're thankful for that.
Speaker 5: But watching their festivities in the national election chaos is
always entertaining, if not scary.
Speaker 3: So there's a lot going on, so it's all good.
Speaker 1: And I want to mention that this is the second
week now that Irene, you've had also your new show
that's also broadcasting on Dark Matter, and it just aired
again tonight. Could you tell everybody a little bit about that?
Speaker 6: Paranormal Adventures UK, isn't it? We have fun, we talk
about all the paranormal stuff. It's hard to talk about
it because we've only done two shows at the moment,
but you know, we've got a lot of things lined
up and a lot of guests lined up, and a
lot of surprises lined up. But I don't want to
ruin it by saying too much about it.
Speaker 1: No, no, that way not.
Speaker 6: The surprise is.
Speaker 1: Since I help out on the show, I'm privy to
some of the surprises, and yeah, they're going to be
a lot of fun coming up. But you know, for
people we'll be going out.
Speaker 6: For drink and one thing or another and find in
a few spirits from bottles.
Speaker 1: Don't we pop on down to the pub and talk
the paranormal. That could be a lot of fun. I
just wanted to mention to everyone that you can hear
Paranormal Adventures UK every Wednesday night on the dark Matter
Radio Network at six pm Eastern Time. But then in
the UK, well this week it's all best up because
you guys are behind us in the daylight Savings time,
so right now tonight it aired at ten o'clock, but
once you catch up to us, then it'll be at
nine o'clock Greenwich meantime every week. So when do you
catch up to us? By the way, I've got no idea.
Speaker 6: I think a couple of weeks.
Speaker 1: Good lord, Well, we'll make sure we post that. But
you can listen to the show every week on dark
Matter and then the podcast we'll be posted afterwards. And
speaking of dark Matter, while we are broadcasting live on
Wednesdays on our website and on talkstream Live, you can
hear us. The repeat of tonight's show will be the
next Monday on dark Matter Digital Network at ten pm
Eastern time. As we lead in with the lead and
show before Heather Wade and Midnight in the Desert. So
a lot of great things happening, and I think we
just want to get right into the show tonight. We
have two guests that are joining us this evening, two
authors who have come together to write a very new,
unique book. One of them is somebody that I've really
wanted to have on this program for many years, and
I'm thrilled that he's able to come on and join
us tonight. I want to introduce mister Whitley Strieber. How
are you tonight, Whitley fine, thank you, And then I
also want to introduce your co author on the new book, Jeffrey.
And Jeff, I have to ask you, is that the
correct way to say your name?
Speaker 2: Well, no, we say cripel.
Speaker 1: Okay, that's my bad. I should have asked him before
we came on the air tonight. But I'll save it
by calling you Jeff. But just give a little bit
of background. Jeff is a professor of philosophy and religious
thought and the former chair of the Department of Religious
Studies at Rice University in Houston, Texas. And Whitley, of course,
a lot of people know Whitley from his novels. He's
written many novels over the years, two of which have
been turned into three of which I take that back,
three which have been turned into feature films.
Speaker 2: No.
Speaker 1: Four. Account's going up in my head, Whitley as we talk.
But I have to mention that The wolfin one of
my favorite films with Albert Finney from the eighties. I
always thought that was a brilliant movie and a brilliant
adaptation of your book. But then you also in nineteen
eighty you wrote Communion and really, for better or for worse,
changed your own life and the life of many people
who have read that book. So now tonight you both
are on with this brand new book called The Supernatural. Whitley,
could you tell us a little bit about what brought
this book about.
Speaker 3: Jeff brought it about, Okay, Jeff wanted. We sort of
fell into the idea of doing it together, and Jeff
was very enthusiastic about it. I really forget which one
of us thought about it first, But in any case,
Jeff took A has taken a serious interest in my work,
and he is a very fine scholar and one of
the few really serious scholars of modern mythology, and I
just found him terribly interesting to talk to for a
lot of reasons, not the least of which is that
he's quite open minded in the sense of not believing,
but rather being willing to entertain the question in a
fairly sophisticated manner. And it started really with a discussion,
a long kind of ongoing discussion that began in about
Jeff was about twenty ten.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it was about twenty ten. I was writing Newton Stimistic,
so it must have been nine.
Speaker 3: Must have been nine, Yeah, probably two thousand and nine
or twenty ten. And the discussion gradually turned into a book.
Speaker 1: Now, the book book is a very interesting take on
a subject that, you know, the paranormal, the supernatural or
high strangeness and all these different strange things that happened
to us to mankind. I mean, we've been reporting strange
encounters since the beginning of written history and before that
with oral history for thousands and thousands of years, and
yet we seem to have our own ideas, whether they're
religious based or culturally based ideas of what we're dealing
with in terms of the paranormal. And your approach to
this book was to try to put a very brand new,
unique perspective on that. I was wondering if you could
tell a little bit more about that.
Speaker 3: Well, is that a question from here for Jeff?
Speaker 1: Jeff, could you speak to that?
Speaker 3: Yeah, why don't you do it?
Speaker 2: Yeah? Yeah, Lillie and I have been on a number
of radio shows and it really helps if you just
tell us who who you'd like to answer the question.
So yeah, So the book began really with my reading
of these visitor corpuses in nine and ten, which began
this long discussion, and we began to meet over the
years and correspond at great length. And the basic idea
was that the conversation around the supernatural of the paranormal
had sort of split into two schizophrenically, split into those
who take the phenomena quite literally and essentially believe it,
and those who think it's all bunk. And we wanted
to suggest that there's a third way that you can
take these experiences very seriously and as part of the
real world, but you don't need to take them little.
You can interpret them as issuing from some other dimension
of the natural world. So we called it the supernatural
that doesn't come through on radio very well. But that's
three words, not two, And the basic argument we wanted
to advance or at least suggest, was that these sorts
of things are part of our real world. They're natural,
but they're also super They extend beyond any kind of
normal experience of the world. So it's a way of
shifting the conversation and trying to have a more nuanced
conversation about these things.
Speaker 1: One of the things that as myself as a self
proclaimed paranormal investigator at least you know, for the last
sixteen years and the research I've done, is we mentioned
that many many times this program my differing and changing
points of view and opinions on what really constitutes the paranormal.
And I used air quotes when I say that or
the super natural, because it's constantly changing. And Whitley, I
have to give you a lot of credit in your
books because I started reading your books since Communion came out,
and I read almost every single one that came out
after that over years, read them several times, and there
were times when you would mention concepts in there that
I really struggled with. I really didn't understand, I really
didn't know what to think about them. And then over
time my point of view has started coming around, and
I have those epiphanies that I have a better understanding
of it in terms of getting away from the idea
that we're dealing with aliens from another planet, which seems
to be what most of the nuts and bolts eufology
groups look at these days, into something that's very, very strange.
Trying to think exactly how I want to phrase this,
Just the encounters that you had, and you would go
over a lot more different encounters in the new book
continue to seem to push the boundaries of what's out there.
When you started writing Communion and the other books, did
you find yourself holding back on a lot because you
thought it was just going to be too strange and
people wouldn't accept it.
Speaker 3: How interesting that you would ask that question just now
I've been discussing that with Jeff today. Yes, is the answer.
I do hold back a lot and will continue to
do so.
Speaker 1: You had mentioned in the book there were a couple
of instances that you actually came out and talked about
for the first time, and I understand your hesitance of
wanting to mention some of these experiences that you had
because of the backlash or the or the giggle factor,
as Bruce and I talk about, you know, and the
response and that the public or the media, i should say,
would have and retaliating against you because when you mentioned,
you know, the probes in your earlier things, and then
the course people make fun of it becomes a joke.
And yeah, you took that very seriously, and that was
very hurtful for you.
Speaker 3: Well, it was. I shouldn't have. I tried to be
discreet in the book, not realizing that I really shouldn't
have put that in at all. I learned my lesson,
and it's taken a long time. It took me twenty
years to even say to my wife the word rape,
that I had been raped. And the result of this
was people were free to mock me for having been raped,
and they did that a lot on the television, on
the radio, in every venue you can possibly imagine. Even
even it became even a kind of a comic comedy
meme in with old comedians. And that one of those
television shows, in animated television shows, I forget.
Speaker 1: Which one it was, Yeah, south Park.
Speaker 3: South Park, Yeah exactly. I don't I'm sorry, but I
don't ever watch them, and I'm not very interested in them.
But it became it became sort of a It was
something that I had to deal with, and it became
very personal because whenever I appeared anywhere, even in a
private situation with friends, I could see the laughter in
their faces. They were aching to burst out into laughter
about it. It was agonizing because being raped is hard,
it's difficult, it's a tremendous emotional challenge, and to add
this to it was grotesque. It was really difficult, and
especially because I am not absolutely sure to this day
precisely what happened.
Speaker 1: Now when you had your first experiences back in December
of nineteen eighty five. At the time it happened, that
moment you thought this was it was something so strange
and beyond anything you could have imagined. You had no
idea that this has been happening to you most of
your life.
Speaker 3: It became it was a surprise to me when I
was with doctor Donald Klein, who it was a fascinating man.
He had interviewed many people and used hypnosis to help
them gain a memory of experiences such as tum trauma
that was associated with crimes, hit and run accidents and
so forth, and had actually solved many cases this way,
so there was little question in my mind that his
techniques were effective in drawing forth memory, not imagination. And
at the time he was introduced to me by a
UFO investigator, Bud Hopkins, and I have to admit that
both doctor Klein and myself were laughing up our sleeves
at Bud Hopkins's what we regarded as a pretty unsophisticated
conviction about alien abduction. And then I had the hypnosis,
and what I came to me under hypnosis was frankly appalling.
I still to this day don't understand it. And not
only that. About a year later, after Communions published, a
rather shamefaced neighbor of mine told me that he had
been actually driving home from a party that night and
had seen in a field near our houses in upstate
New York a gray object. And he was a retired
state policeman, and he felt he should stop and render
aid because it looked to him like a blimp had
descended into the field in the middle of the night,
and obviously that would be an accident of some kind.
So he stopped and got out and climbed over the
fence and began walking toward it. He heard human screaming
from inside and began running. Then suddenly lights turned on
all over it, and it made a growling sound and
came toward him across the field, and his wife became
panicky back in the car and began to scream, and
he ran and got into the car and drove away,
and then he came across. Actually we talked about what
had happened to me a few weeks afterwards, because at
the time I wanted to find out I thought I
had been the victim of a crime, and I wanted
his advice as to who in the police, in the
state police I should go to, or the sheriff's department
to talk about this. It wasn't until I never actually
did that, because during the course of my own investigations,
it soon became obvious that this was If it was
a crime, it was no ordinary crime. And he was
very ashamed of not having said what he had seen
on when I talked to him, because he thought it
was connected in some way, And I don't to this
day no if it was or not. Maybe it was
simply a UFO and I was inside it, and all
of the things I remember are absolute physical facts, but
I can't get away from the fact that even if
that is true, other things that are more important must
also be true. And that was where Jeff comes in.
Speaker 5: Well, I'd like to jump in here if I may,
and I think it's important after you know, forty some
years of investigating this community in its larger sense, rather
than you know, starting in you know, unexplained phenomena down
in Roswell in nineteen seventy six when I was working
down there in College Whitney. If you'll indulge me, I
think it strikes me all the time, as you know,
a documentary producer, the real human side. And I mean
this in the most literal sense of the toll that
these type of events have on people, you know.
Speaker 3: Think.
Speaker 5: I think that I always ask people when I lecture
to play to try to put themselves in the mindset
of someone whose life is completely and irreversibly turned upside down.
And I think you're obviously your experiences aren't extreme case.
That evidence is the trauma and the agony and the
pain as a victim, I mean, and only other way
you could describe it in your case. But I think
if people try to picture how life altering these episodes
are even to the extent from a professional level, as
you say the State trooper. I mean, I've gone all
over the world doing aviation documentaries and what I've been
told behind the scenes by commercial pilots and military pilots
and law enforcement personnel and people that have said, look,
you know, I could never say this, but I'll never
look at things the same again. I think it's very important,
and I must applaud. I mean, all the humiliation that
you've had to endure, you know, things that you just elaborated,
and many many more that we would never need to
know about, nor should we is just an amazing burden
to carry. And for you to go public on this
and stand your ground and remain steadfast. And you know,
I have been fortunate to read communion in the books
and do a lot of research, and certainly I know
Linda and have listened to many of your interviews, and
so I am at least acquainted to publicly what you've
had to share with people. And you know, to bear
your soul for the sake of bringing this information forward,
because it's incredibly important that people realize that sincere intelligent
people like yourself are willing to put your you know,
yourself on the line and bear this, you know, this
kind of humiliation with people that are less than professional
in their approach to get this information out, and it's
I want to just say, if I may real quickly
bring up another point. We've been working with a gentleman
that I've known since my childhood who ironically, just in
nineteen ninety four, Markhorre, you published his book, and certainly
we're not about him tonight, but the concept of super
normal events supernatural and the concept that maybe all of
these type of unexplained phenomena have some type of link
that we're just now at least evaluating, if not corroborating.
I think is a very interesting and fascinating turn of
bringing together the nuts and bolts people, and I tend
in general to be one of those people, being a pilot,
but also the paranormal aspects that don't lend themselves to
the nuts and bolts research. So forgive me for this
long winded introduction, but I think I really respect anyone
who has gone through what you have to bring for
something that would be very easy to say, I will
never talk to anybody about this for so many valid reasons.
So I think you'd to be applauded for that, and
your work stands on its own merit. So let me
let you go back and respond to that. Either of you, gentlemen, Well, okay,
I'll respond first. My interest in this is what can
I get from it from the contact experience? What is
in it for me? And I'm the negative side of
it is there, and we go through that extensively and supernatural,
and I've never shrunk and shrunk from talking about it
because the business of aliens here wonderful from somewhere and
coming in and if only the government would quit shooting
at them. They give us a plans for a starship
or whatever spiritual growth.
Speaker 3: That's not on in my mind. It's not what's happening neither, however,
is this anger that people get and where they end
up sitting passively angry and unable to really make anything
out of this for themselves. When I realized there was
very definitely something extremely strange happening in my life, and
it was out in the woods. I went out into
the woods in the night alone, night after night after night.
When I first started doing it, putting one foot in
front of the other. It took actual concentration. It wasn't
something My body didn't just walk. I had to literally
lift my legs and do it. It was like walking
into and walking into a layer of panthers. But I
did it, and I have been doing it ever since.
I still do it. I'm still involved. It's not over,
and what started as a ferociously difficult experience has become
an illumination of the deepest and most profound sort. And Jeff,
why don't you talk a little bit about the dangerous sacred?
You know so much about that?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, before I talk about the sacred, if
I could just comment on what's been said. I think
the way lihity has been shamed and humiliated by these
cultural forces, I think that in itself needs to be interrogated.
I think really what's at stake here is our view
of reality itself, and Whitley's experiences, like many many many
other people's experiences, are direct challenges or subversions really of
what our Western culture assumes to be a rather full
and complete picture of reality. So when someone like Whitley
stands up and actually describes something that can't be fit
into that, the system, as it were, has a kind
of immunological response, and it attacks the perceived violence as
it were, and surrounds it and in this case makes
fun of it. So I think that's really very much
worth keeping in mind that what we're really talking when
we're talking about the shaming practices is a kind of
immunological response from a social body or the perceived violence,
as it were. And in terms of the left handed sacred,
the sacred is a basic category and the study of religion.
And by the sacred, we do not mean the good
or the ethical or the moral. We mean we mean
the holy. We mean some kind of awesome energy or
presence in the environment that can kill one as easily
as it can fascinate or a ruer one. So the
sacred has a positive quality, but it also has a
profoundly negative as quality. Human beings historically have been as
afraid of the sacred as they have been drawn to it.
So this, again, I think helps helps us understand what
these experiences they They can be terrifying and they can
still be genuine encounters with something very very real. So
I hope that helps.
Speaker 1: And Jeffrey, I totally agree with you. And again that's
another reason that I really fell in love with this
book is because of these ideas and looking at things,
trying to break out of our traditional Western ideas of
these types of strange events, getting away from the labels
that we've put on things and having everything all neatly packaged,
because when doing so, we don't think basically, I'm in
a nutshell. We stop thinking, and we use our labels
and we go, Okay, I understand that, sure, they're aliens
coming from zeta reticulate. Okay, that makes sense to most people.
But what's really happening. It seems to be so much,
so much more wondrous and terrifying and beyond our comprehension
in most ways, I have to say, and this is
one of the things that really got me Whitley with
reading your books over the years and coming to a
better understanding. And we've had a wonderful opportunity on this
program to interview and speak with people who've had the
similar experiences to yours, and they all have gone through
both the very negative in terms of how the media
and society reacts to them. But there's those the truth
that's in those words that I think it's that truth
that's what's really terrifying for most people because it shatters
their illusions of what we think of as reality, and
I've always felt that reality as we know it is
a complete illusion. There's much more out there that we
have to open our minds to, but it's going to
take some time before we can even get there. Welly,
you mentioned when you talked about going out into the
woods and the fear that you felt and the absolute
terror and taking that step one step at a time.
There's a concept that I've been hearing from people who've
had these types of experiences. Do you feel that these visitors,
these beings manipulate emotions and can manipulate terror in a
person as a form of control.
Speaker 3: Well, it's always possible. We don't know what they are
or what their capabilities are, so I would say this.
I have observed at my cabin instances where when a
person who was engaged in an encounter felt there was
a response that it suggested that the being or whatever
it was that was there was reacting defensively. And here's
what I mean. There was a filmmaker there. We were
trying to get video of the visitors, and they had
showed up that night and gone to the rooms of
numerous a number of three different people. And then the
filmmaker woke up at about four o'clock in the morning,
and there standing beside his bed was a small figure
with a very large head looking down at him, and
he was he was a Hollywood filmmaker. He didn't believe
any of this. He was doing this for money, and
he was, of course appalled and horrified, and he said,
an electric shock of terror went through me like nothing
I have ever known before in my life. And immediately
the figure's head became the head of a hawk of Horus,
sort of like what happens when a blowfish becomes concerned
about something in its environment. It suddenly blows up and
becomes a big spiky thing to scare off whatever is there.
And yet at the same time, the head of Horace
has a profound mythological significance as well, so it was
much more complex than simply a simply a fright response
on the part of whatever was there. Then the thing
disappeared before his eyes, and he woke his wife up,
and they were too scared get out of the bed.
But let's put it this way, they left that afternoon,
never to return. I can imagine, which I can well understand,
he said, to me at one point, how can you
live here? And I said, we're doing this. My wife
and I have decided that we will do this. That's
why we're here.
Speaker 1: The experiences you've had, beyond just the visitor interactions, it
forced you or at least opened a door for you.
You started with learning meditation and even had experiences with
going out of your own body, and even the experiences
of being with the visitors where you talked about meeting
and interacting with people who had died.
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, I'm glad of my body all the time.
I am extensive involved with the other side. But I'm
not talking about it much because I just don't want to.
Speaker 1: Understood because let me just say this part then, because
I've always felt that there was a connection between these visitors,
these beings, there's more of a connection with the paranormal
as the layman terms as most people think of, and
the afterlife. Then we realize with these higher beings, which
makes me lean towards that this is more of a
and I'm not even sure the terminology is correct, an
interdimensional experience or tered reality experience, where we are on
one reality right now and there's so much of the
universe that's happening on other realities, whether they occupy the
same space as us, as is mentioned in string theory
and talking about other dimensions, and so what we think
of someone died and going to the spirit world, Well,
maybe that spirit world isn't so much in our minds
like the spirit world, that's the only way we could
describe it, but being just another plane of existence that
where maybe these visitors, or at least part of these visitors,
that's their normal, everyday reality, and they're coming in and
interacting with us, and it's much more entwined and interconnected
than we want to admit.
Speaker 3: Certainly, when you're in that reality, it feels very ordinary,
and the denizens of that reality aren't particularly amazed by it,
do they feel Do you feel that.
Speaker 1: Any of the entities, these beings that you've interacted with,
do you feel like they are coming from a different
reality or do you feel maybe you're also dealing with
something that's very physical that's part of I know you've
had encounters that involved human beings as well.
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, well, you know, this different reality thing is
very difficult not to untangle because of the way our
language works. The first thing you find out is that
there are other ways of doing language that have absolutely
nothing to do with words as we understand it. And
let me explain what I mean. A perfect example is
on the cover of our book, on the cover of Supernatural,
the eye of an Owl. Why is it there? It's
because the visitors are telling us about themselves through the
imagery of the owl. When I had my first experience,
the first thing I thought the next morning was an
owl had gotten into the house. And one of the
most terrifying moments of my life was that evening when
I walked upstairs. By that time, I knew no owl
had could have gotten into the house, So I had
decided it must have looked in the window of the bedroom,
and I had seen it, and that had been the
cause of the strange memories that I had was coping
with already that next afternoon, and I knew as I
was walking up the stairs that I wouldn't see any
footprints of any owl in the snow on the window sill.
I already knew that, and I looked and there were
no footprints and no claw prints, And then the sun
went down. Now, if you look at the life of
an owl, or at the if you study the owl
and what it does and how it lives, and thethology
of the owl. You are studying the visitors in a different,
entirely different way than we would normally study them, using
language and describing things back and forth in words. And
what I'm saying here is that this, to try to
talk about this is interdimensional. It feels like we're saying
that there's some kind of a door between kind of
this room and the other room, which is another dimension,
and they're in that room and we're in this room.
There are no rooms. There are gradients of experience and
orientations of being, and we have a particular orientation of
being that has a has a great weight cannnected with
it that keeps us moving down this particular path. But
when you get off of this path, you see that
it's one garden and full of many paths. The garden
one of the what physicists I forgot used to call
it the garden of forked paths. That's what it is.
And it's not a there is only one home for consciousness.
It is reality in it's the whole spectrum of reality.
You know, the best language I've ever found, and I
wish we still used it to contend with this is Egyptian,
ancient Egyptian hieroglyphics, and the reason is that they are
so filled with both contextual meanings like English and logical
structure like modern languages, but also with resonances from mythology
and from the natural world that cause every single hieroglyphic
to be a complex array of meanings, implications, and wonderful visual, oral,
and textual puns. It's a bigger language than we use now,
and we need a bigger language to deal with this
our great problem. We do not have the language to
address this, but we can find that language because they
have it. And when you get involved with them, you
really let them into your life. You're soon speaking another
language completely, a better language, a much better language. You know.
I was with them once for oh, it couldn't have
been about twenty minutes of when I was totally involved,
and I was in my apartment in San Antonio and
walking out on the street with them. But I was
in their field, as it were. I was sort of
in their reality and that apartment. It was fascinating the
way it changed when I was seeing it as if
through their eyes, and it reminded me of what it's
like to look at a little burrow in a zoo
where you're going in, there's the dark room where they
have the little burrowing night creatures, and there you look
and you can see their burrows behind glass, and you
look and you think, oh gosh, look at that messy
little burrow. And of course it's full of all kinds
of debris and filth and fleas and everything, but they
love it. They're happy there. My apartment became a disjointed
kind of crazy hoss. I could say every flaw and
defect in it. It was incredible and I thought, my god,
this looks like the layer of an animal. And that
was how they saw it and how they saw me,
and I became all big and thick and heavy. It
was an extraordinary experience. But then came when it ended.
That morning, at about seven o'clock, the radio turned itself on,
because we used to wake up with the radio, and
I heard this strange garbled yapping and I couldn't fare
on what it was coming from. It sounded like a
very brilliant dog talking, almost trying to talk, and I thought,
my god, that's coming out of the radio. And then
I realized that's English. I've lost my language by being
with them for fifteen or twenty minutes, I've lost my language.
Gradually it came back, but without a new way of
addressing this linguistically, we're not really going to get anywhere.
We're wearing in circles right now. But Supernatural does offer
that possibility. It definitely does. If you look at the book,
especially in Jeff's part, he says, make the cut. Jeff,
can you tell us a little bit about that? Make
the cut? It's so important.
Speaker 2: Yeah. So this this comes actually from a sentence that
Whitby uses in the chapter before that, where he essentially says, well,
I don't know what was there. I'm describing what I experienced,
what I saw. I'm not making a claim about what
coust it or what was there. And in the study
of religion, that's what we call we call it phenomenology,
where you focus on the experience, on what is appearing
to a particular subject or psyche, but you bracket the
question of who's producing it or where it's coming from,
and that then allows you to look at any experience,
no matter how extreme or how extravagant, and take it
on its own terms and try to understand it, and
then later, you know, you can ask those questions about
where it comes from or what constant. But to begin with,
you have to make that cut, and you have to
do another. You have to make a distinction between what
a person is seeing or experiencing and what is actually there,
which might be entirely, entirely different things. I mean, each
of us, every moment of our waking lives is eventually
watching a three D movie inside our brain. But that
three D movie is being created as much by our
brains and our bodies as it is whatever is out there,
streaming in as it were. So this is just the base.
This is just you know, one oh one in trying
to understand someone else's experiences, whether they're religious or spiritual
or paranormal, whatever they are. So that's what we mean
by making the cut.
Speaker 1: It seems like a lot of it is a matter
of perception, and what we are able to perceive with
our limited brains are limited intelligence compared to what the
totality of reality.
Speaker 2: I mean, yeah, I mean we assume mark that for
some there's our reason that our senses are set up
to perceive all of reality exactly as it is, and
that's just nonsense. It's just not true. Our senses evolved
over countless skions so that we could survive in this
physical environment, and so they're locked in to only a tiny,
tiny sliver of the electromagnetic spectrum. We only see a
fraction of what's actually out there. And then this then
enters our language. This is Whitney's point. So we say, oh,
that made sense or this makes sense. Well, what we
mean by that is I can coordinate that with what
I see with my eyes and here with my ears
and smell of my nose. It literally makes sense. The
problem is is that, again, what makes sense is just
a sliver of reality, and the rest of it doesn't
coordinate with our senses at all. I mean, anybody who's
spent five minutes trying to read, say a Layman's book
on quantum physics knows that it makes absolutely no sense.
But they're claiming to be mapping reality as it is.
So I think that's the problem. It's the problem of language,
it's a problem of our senses. It's a problem of
our cognitive capacities, none of which are set up to
really deal with these things.
Speaker 3: Well, you know, we are having trouble dealing with the
most basic of the super natural questions. Here's one quantum indeterminacy.
We know and can prove that a a particle will
remain in superposition until it's observed. When it becomes positional,
it focuses into a particle. What does that mean about us?
What does that mean about the universe in which we live?
And as Jeff has been saying, we don't actually know.
But that moment when the observer changes the world by
merely doing the observing is a moment of the super
natural because we don't know what is happening to cause
that to occur. But something in the outside world changes
and in effect becomes real because it's being observed, and
it's an experiment that's been done dozens thousands of times.
It is reality. But we don't want to address it philosophically,
and certainly most of the sciences outside of physics don't
want to address it because they are the media god.
The intellectual community hates that they will never address it
because they want everything to be linear and comprehensible. The
intellectual community is still living in the eighteenth century. They
look at the world as a Newtonian construct, and even
these linear histories that we write are themselves a kind
of illusion. We live in an enforced illusion, in fact,
very different from the reality. Because here's a question about reality.
Why is it that it appears that it stays this
way all the time even when we're not observing it.
Who is observing it? Or is it that we can
never escape from the obligation of the observer, the position
of the observer. We can never see outside of observation itself. Therefore,
we can never see reality as it actually is. Who
knows what's actually happening? Don't Actually, we don't have the
faintest idea. We can only we can only respond to
what we see. And as Jeff says, our senses are
extremely limited. We have very limited senses. We have machines
that can take us, take our understanding or our vision
into areas that our bodies and brains are not capable
of seeing. But here's something else. One of the things
that could happen at our cabin was that there could
be these very complex experiences and interaction that were both
physical and quasi physical. And the cabin itself was located
on an iron tailing. Massive amount of iron was under
that that the iron formation geologic formation was under the
area where that cabin was, and about twenty miles to
the south there was a place called Magnetic Mine Road
where the land the iron in that part of the
tailing was actually magnetized and the long magnetic people used
to go out to Magnetic Mine Road to watch orbs
of light that seemed to have an intelligence that would
come up and look at be face to face with you,
and then move off. What was going on? We have
no idea. And then in the same area quite a
number of homeless people, I am told I'm never able
to follow this up, so it's not confirmable died in
very bizarre ways that were similar to cattle mutilations. So
what in the world was going on that was happening
to them while I was having what came to be
extraordinary and sublime and deeply illuminating experiences with the visitors.
What a mystery?
Speaker 2: You know?
Speaker 3: This is all about one thing, perfecting the question. That's
what Supernatural our book is about. But first we have
to accept it, and that's hard for us. We don't
want the question to be there. We'd much rather giggle
about rectal probes.
Speaker 1: Or have everything spoon fed to us and This goes
to a concept that you know, we've discussed many times
in the show of almost a dumbing down of society
instead of becoming more enlightened and trying to expand our
consciousness to understand these things. It almost feels like the
New Dark Ages, where you know, the powers that be
are purposely trying to dumbest down to don't look behind
that at that man behind them to.
Speaker 3: Pay Donald Trump. I love the uneducated. That's that's what
it's about, isn't it. They love the uneducated. That's why
we're we're watching our public school systems disintegrate all around
the country because the powers that be, as you put it,
do not want an educated public. That's exactly what they
don't want.
Speaker 1: Because if they did, there would be another revolution because
people would finally stand up and not put up with
what our society has become. You know, keep people uneducated,
keep the masses, you know, going and consuming and make
they make their money and have keep.
Speaker 3: Them dumb, and keep them scared. Then you got them.
Speaker 1: That's That's why you know a lot. I don't even
try to watch the mainstream news anymore because if you
really break down the content and being a past filmmaker,
and I've taken and going to college and filmmaking classes
and media classes. You know, one thing that I learned
real quick is when you try to break down a
nightly newscast and you find out in an hour newscast
you might have maybe seven minutes of news of real
news if you're lucky, and the rest between advertising and
fluff pieces, uh, you know, personal interest stories. There's nothing there,
and it's it's it's it's disheartening to what has been happening.
What I think we're gonna do is we're gonna go
ahead and take our break, and then when we come back,
we'll be talking more with Whitley Streeber and Jeffrey Kreipel
and about their book The Snatural, And we'll be right
back after these messages.
Speaker 8: So don't go away, Demons. Dwell the Tower is a
thrilling novel of supernatural terror by Irene Allen Block and
Mark Johnson. A hidden evil torment a young couple in
a small Italian village along the Mediterranean coast and threatens
to destroy their once peaceful lives as the dark forces
closing around them. Help arrives in the form of two
paranormal investigators. Using their psychic abilities and research experience, the
pair quickly finds himself embroiled in a one hundred year
old mystery involving satanic cults and terrifying entities. As they
confront with evil forces around them, the investigators have drawn
further into the dark and mysterious world hidden beneath the
seeming tranquility of an ancient Italian village. Demon's Dwelt. The
Tower is now available on Glenetti dot com, Amazon dot com,
and Bonds Anddoble dot com.
Speaker 3: Hi.
Speaker 9: This is Jeff Brady, host of in Other News, heard
on Dark Matter Radio on Thursdays. In this strange period
where free energy technology is weaponized, descent is criminalized, and
war economies flourish, the human family is being deliberately assaulted
on multiple fronts, in the food, air, water, and during sleep.
Yet here we are with information at our fingertips, only
to become a slave to the portable digital communication device.
You know what you're really communicating. You're screaming to cell
phone corporations, Please put a chip in me. Past shows
have looked at issues involving electromagnetic weapons, satellite stocking, RFID
or gone, and organize illegal fluoridated drinking water for infants, airport, radiation, scanner,
secret societies, energy, vampire's psychopathy, at surveillance, sex, trafficking, disign
after Capitalism. So tune in to in Other News Thursdays
on the dark Matter Radio Network, the pioneers of overnight
talk radio.
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Speaker 3: For this, for this, and I'm ashamed of you? Never
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Speaker 1: Glanettie Publishing is pleased to announce the release of Stephen
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to keep the A Drive out of the hands of
other organizations who plan to use the technology for their
own sinister agendas, which threatens the very fabric of our existence.
The first book in the Ghost Tactical series, The Labyrinth
of Datalists, is an exciting novel that will thrill lovers
of science fiction and high tech adventures. Ghost Tactical, The
Labyrinth of Datalists is now available on Glannatai dot com,
Amazon dot com, and Barnesandoble dot com. And welcome back
everyone to Unknown Origins Radio. I'm Mark Johnson along with
Bruce Pearson and Irene Allen Block and we are talking
tonight with our guests Whitley Strieber and Jeffrey Kreipel about
their new book The Supernatural. Irene, do you have any
thoughts on this so far?
Speaker 6: No, I'm just fascinated to be listening to the story
of everything that's going on with Whitley. You know, for me,
this is all new over here here, so much of it.
So I'm definitely going to be behind the book.
Speaker 1: I think the well waiting. I know Bruce wanted to
ask a question when he gets back on, but let
me let me ask you a question, Whitley. Something else
that you brought up in the in the new book
with the Supernatural and then on that, like to get
Jeff's take on it afterwards. Whitley, you had mentioned in
your book about some of your out of body experiences
that you had, and there was one time where you
had an out of body experience and then you looked
at yourself and you seem to take on a visage
of one of the visitors.
Speaker 3: Yo, that happened. It wasn't more than taking on the
visit to one of the visitors. I was that afternoon.
I was sitting and lying on a couch and was
sitting there reading and I realized I to a certain
type of vibration that you feel when you're going to
have an outer body experience. But then I suddenly realized,
and I don't know quite why this was, that it
wasn't going to be an outer body experience, that I
was going to change forms. And I thought to myself, well,
she's going to see an alien now for sure. Finally,
then the cat jumped up on me, and the spark
shot off of my chest onto the cat, and the
cat yelled and jumped away, but it also threw the
whole thing off balance, so nothing happened that night. Went
to bed, and it happened in the night, and the
transformation then took place, and so I got out of
the bed, and in this other state, it's possible you
can do a lot of things like you can't. You
can you're not quite connected to gravity in the same way.
So I went flying upstairs, and not flying, but sort
of moving very easily. Let me put it that way,
into my son's room where he and a friend were asleep,
and he was having a sleepover, and I thought perhaps
I would I wanted to somehow engage with him, because
he was very negative about this, and I didn't want
it in his life and didn't want to be talked
about or anything. But then when I was in there,
he was asleep and the other boy was awake, and
he looked up at me, the other boy, and smiled.
He's a big smile on his face, and I thought, oh, good,
they're accepting this. This is and I. But then I
won't go into what happened next, but suffice to say
I had to leave the room. Experience then changed, the
energy changed, and I became this for him again. The
next morning breakfast, the boys were very sullen and silent,
and they went away to school. Then when Andrew came home,
he said, Dad, one of those things came into my
room last night and disturbed X. The boy scared him.
I don't want you to let them come anywhere near
me or anyone I know, because it ruins my friendships.
And I realized that my son apparently didn't really know
me all that well after all. But he subsequently realized
that is just really strange. And it's okay, you know,
he's not strange, he's fine.
Speaker 1: The see, there's something that really struck me when I
read that in the book, and it's when you look
at Native American lore, especially in the Southwest, and they
have the talk of skinwalkers or being able in pagan
mythology of shape shifting, shape shifting into different forms, which
sounds you know, modern science, and most people pooh pooh,
that is fantasy. Mythology can't exist. But yet there just
seems to be an evidence out there that there are
aspects of reality that do make it a reality that
can happen. Whether it's a manipulation of energies, whether I
don't know, it's beyond my comprehension, but the fact remains
it seems to happen. Do you feel it could have
been a similar situation.
Speaker 3: Well, I can't do it. It has to be done
to me. In other words, I can't change form at will.
I've tried, and unless somebody comes and does it, it's
just not going to happen far as I can tell,
though I'm still working on it. If I can change
for I'm gonna damn well go down the street in
the other forum the next time I do it. See
what people think, But there are people with extraordinary abilities
and powers I've seen a lot of that, and in
all of the communities that are still connected in a
real way to this planet, those powers are ordinary. In
the communities that aren't, they seem impossible, They seem completely impossible,
but they're very, very much part of us. You have
to be a child of the planet, not or a
bride or husband of the planet, not a divorce in
order to enjoy your real self. And these people can. Yes,
they can shift into different forms. Of course they can.
I can. I'd love to shift into a really cool
form like an eagle, but so far, no cigar, it's
just that one form, and I haven't been able to
do it on call. Wish I could. Bruce, are you there, Ah,
speaking of inner dimensional travel? Yeah, we have to accept
the fact that he's there and not He can.
Speaker 1: He can hear us, He can hear himself, but for
whatever reason, his audio is not coming through. So why
don't we.
Speaker 3: Talk about him? Pardon, why don't we talk about him?
Speaker 1: Yeah, let's talk about Bruce now. Now he can't he
can't defend himself. Irene, you want to throw in some of.
Speaker 3: That bar that's cool, the.
Speaker 1: Well, well waiting, We'll try to uh, Bruce let me
let me kick you out and I'll try to bring
you back in. Let's see if this fixes the See
there's another concept that it kind of ties in with
all this, and I brought it up a couple of
times tonight, and I don't know how much you're willing
to talk about it or not. The doctor John Mack
when he was doing his research and and doing hypnotherapy
and regressions on his patients, and Dolores Cannon also you
this technique and in a lot of the cases, and
I leaned towards doctor Max Moore because they talk about
doctor Mack and in several of his cases that he investigated,
they had mentioned going back further beyond this life and
mentioning that they were these these beings, they were among
these beings, they were part of these beings that had
mentioned it.
Speaker 3: It's not that they were part of these beings. It's
that these beings are part of us. Then that's it's
just us. Then that's us, And it doesn't. The whole
alien human thing is completely it's an illusion. It's not
even real. There are no aliens. I mean, we're all
we're all together, one consciousness.
Speaker 6: This is exactly what I wanted to try and explain
earlier when I wrote you that message, Mark, but I
couldn't find the words for it. Thank you very much,
you said it.
Speaker 1: So we're all one in together. Now Now let me
see if I can my little puny human brain here
try to wrap around this. If we're all one and
together between us, these visitors, these these intelligences, we mean
we're all one. We're all I guess that means we're
all coming from the same place. We're all part of
the same thing. How does that really we relate to,
let's say, other forms of life here on this planet,
with animals, insects, bacteria. Is that all part of the
same thing, just in different forms? And maybe maybe Whitley,
I don't know if you would answer that, or maybe
that would be something.
Speaker 2: That's not fair, but I you know, I want to
go back to Whitley's comment. I mean when you Mark,
when you initially invoke the story of Whitley watching himself
trying and do an alien, and I mean, obviously the
first reading of that should be that the alien is us,
that the whole abduction experience is some part of us
that we've depressed and lost touch with. In the modern
world that wants our attention and has to go to
extreme measures to get our attention. And you know, the
human being is vast. The ego is just a tip
of the iceberg above the water, but there's this immense
psyche or soul or spirit underneath the water, as it were.
And wently, you know, he singled this on the very
first page of Communion. Nobody noticed that he gave away
his deepest insight on page one, and he did it
again on page one of our books. The phrases the
enigmatic presence of the human mind links back from the dark.
I mean, that's precisely what he was suggesting there, and
that's really kind of what we pursue in the book. Again.
We really go after that idea that the mythical figure
of the alien is in fact some other part of
the human that we've lost touch with or that we're
still groping toward. So I just think that's true. I
think all the one thing we know about every abduction
experience that anybody who's ever reported is that it was
a human experience. It was a human being allowed that experience.
Whether it has some objective cause, again, we don't know,
but we know at the end of the day, there
was a human being having that experience. So that's significant
and it suggests that it's has something to do with
our humanity us.
Speaker 1: What do you think of the idea, Whitley, of the
idea that some people have claimed that these beings not
only are us, but are possibly us from the future.
Speaker 3: Well, that's a very interesting question. My wife Anne was
very interested in that possibility always. She always felt like
this might be something from our own future. And interestingly enough,
there are two principles of physics that pertain here that
might that suggests that could be true. The first one,
of course, is the grandfather paradox, and we know it
works because we are able. We have moved photons backwards
in time in such a way that they should encounter themselves,
and they never do. They never do. In other words,
the grandfather paradox is true. You can't go back in
time and kill your own grandfather. Something else will happen. However,
we also know that movement through time is theoretically possible.
It's a daunting task physically, but it is theoretically possible.
There's another principle, the principle of least action, that tells
us This is the principle that says that nothing ever
does anything in nature that it doesn't need to do.
In other words, and nature never expends any more energy
on anything than it must. In other words, water going
trickling down a stream never stops to regard the view.
It just goes down, always the lowest possible point. That's
the principle of least action. That same principle means that
it is possible to travel backwards time because the principle
of least action ensures that the grandfather paradox cannot be broken,
so there's no bar to doing it. In physics, the
only bar to doing it is essentially technological. Now it
seems quite possible that either we or somebody else may
have solved that technological problem. And that may be an
explanation for why there is among the close encounter community
an almost universal message of environmental peril. And it might
be that these people are coming back in time to
try to repair their present by changing our present. And
you know, they might be succeeding because just in the
past year, for the first time, despite economic growth around
the world, modesty cannot growth. Carbon emissions remained flat for
the first time in forty years because of efforts being
made to control carbon dioxide emissions now, so maybe they
are having an effect, but I don't know. The interesting
thing is, though, that if someone were to come back
in time, they might give themselves more latitude to be
able to violate the temporal restrictions. If they appeared to
us to be something that wasn't real aliens, for example,
then they might be able to do more and communicate
with us more fully. So it's a fascinating possibility. I
don't think it's out of bounds at all.
Speaker 1: It's to my understanding at least, this is the way
I'm leaning with a lot of the people that I've
talked to and gaining more of an understanding and knowledge
in regards to time that our concept of time being
linear is of course just an illusion. Time is not linear.
Time all time is happening at once, but time also
seems to be fluid. They're a perfect example. Is You've
mentioned this before in your books and even on an
unknown country your website, about having whether it was I
forget the exact term, whether visions or whatnot, where you
seeing yourself in multiple almost multiple realities or multiple different
versions of you, different time, that's not what happened in
your present, but could happened or maybe is playing out
in another time frame or another reality.
Speaker 3: Well, that happened in December of two thousand and nine,
as I recall, and it was associated in my mind
with a really high intensity experience, an encounter, and there
was I was my consciousness moved into an array of
different lives all at the same time. And it was
a remarkable experience. And it came, ironically enough, the day
of the publication of my book twenty twelve, which was
a sort of kind of comic novel about a writer
who it turns out that the book he's writing is
creating reality in another in a parallel universe. He gets
into a lot of trouble with the people in that
universe because some of them wanted to write one thing
and others want him to write another, and he he
is caught between two stools, as it were. In any case,
it was an absolutely fascinating experience. And you know, it's
quite possible that we are moving down many If the
Copenhagen interpretation is true, then my seeing six or seven
different lives was paltry compared to what's really going on.
There could be thousands. Oh god, I.
Speaker 1: Don't you know, there's already two of me. I have
an identical twin brother on the West coast, So there's
already two of me. To thought that there's like maybe
thousands or millions or billions of me floating around out there,
that's rather frightening. But let me ask you this, in
terms of time are traveling through time. Time seems not
only fluid, but it seems like we occasionally seem to
experience time edits. And I know you've had Starfire Tour
on your Dreamline show many times and talking about certain
edits within the timeline. And a perfect example would be
when somebody remembers they have a vivid memory of a
celebrity dying. A perfect example would be, I know a
lot of people remember when Kirk Douglas supposedly died many
years ago. Well, Kirk Douglas is very much alive, and
yet there are people there who have that memory of
Kirk Douglas dying, of Michael Douglas and his wife Catherine
Zeeda Jones at the funeral, and this all happened many
years ago, and then all of a sudden, boomy pops
up he's still alive and he's still here with us,
and yet people still have those memories, and it seems
like time itself has altered some So in terms of
the grandfather paradox, could that not exactly maybe not be
true only in terms of because time is fluid, we're
only remembering one aspect of a timeline. There could be
multiple timelines, or there could be edits in a timeline,
and our memories of those that timeline is affected along
the way based on our limited physical perception using these
meat suits in our brains.
Speaker 3: Lane and I were at a place in La called
the Magic Castle Park, appropriately enough, where magicians go and
I've been there. Yeah, it's a lovely place they go
and do their magic acts and there's millions of little
rooms here and there, and we actually, she and Starfire
experienced a time slip together where somebody who wasn't in
a bathroom with them, in a lady's room with them.
A woman walked out of the lady's room in front
of them, even though the ladies room only. Starfire and
Ann had been in the ladies room. I was waiting
right outside the door because the place was so complicated.
And then they had a tendency to get lost in
places like that. I was just a few feet away.
I had seen the two of them go in, and
I saw the woman come out kind of oddly right
in front of them and then walk away. And Anne
came out and said, who was that? And I said,
I don't know why, she said, because there wasn't anyone
in the bathroom but us, and yet she walked out
in front of us. Did you see her? I said, yeah,
I saw her. We found her. She was the photographer
who was working, you know, during the photographs of people
and stuff in there, and she hadn't noticed anything unusual.
But the problem is there, it's a very small bathroom.
There were two stalls in a sink, and there was
no place for a third person to be, and yet
she was there. She sort of popped up out of nowhere,
and she didn't perceive anything unusual, but Anne and Starfire
certainly did, because you know, she suddenly left the bathroom
in front of them when they she couldn't have been
in it. It was really a cool experience. I have
to tell you.
Speaker 1: There are a couple and again you have to take
this with a grain of salt, only because of what
can be done with video editing these days. But there
are a couple of very intriguing videos that can be
found on YouTube that seemed to show something extremely similar
to that happening. There was one, I believe it was
in Ireland. It shows these band members on the street
and they're putting their equipment away and the way one
band member he's sitting there and from behind his back,
all of a sudden, this man with a bicycle comes
as if he went right behind him, but yet you
could see the full man he wasn't in on the
other side. It's like he literally came out of nowhere
and went right behind the man pedaling down the street.
There's a couple of other examples of that that can
be seen out there. That's the one that comes most
to mind.
Speaker 3: Now. The truck in the tunnel in France is also
a weird one. Do you see that one?
Speaker 1: I don't think I've seen that one. I have seen
one where somebody's turning and literally a car comes out
of nowhere because nobody was coming down the street and boom,
there's that car. It seemed to come out of nowhere.
Very very strange with time travel, do you and this
is going to go with not only with time taverl,
but also the human interactions that you've felt with. Do
you feel like our government possibly maybe has this technology
and they're doing stuff along, whether in in tandem with
or in relationship with the visitors, or do you think
that we might have some type of technology that mankind
is playing with that the public is not privy to.
Speaker 3: I don't know. Maybe I know of a few secret technologies.
They don't interest me very much. Frankly, the old government
thing caused me almost to roll my head, my eyes
back in my head with boredom, because I think that
the close encounter witnesses collectively no, far far more than
the government does. I don't think the government's position in
this is important.
Speaker 1: Okay, that's fair enough. There. There's one other thing. It's
that I wanted to ask about in regards to your book,
The Key. Fascinating book. I really highly recommend for people
to read this because it is certainly a much different
encounter that you had with the Key than in most
of your other books where you've had encounters with the visitors.
You've had encounter with a person and this gentleman, as
you call him, the Master of the key when he
appeared in your hotel in Toronto and then had this
very strange conversation with him. Do you think that he
was because I know he had a lot of cryptic
responses to some of your questions, especially in regards to
who he possibly could have been, including the discussion of
intelligent machines. For whatever reason, it popped into my head
the other day that it almost seems like it could
be related to what a lot of people referred to
as the men in Black phenomenon. Could he have been?
Do you feel he was a real person, maybe with
a special knowledge, or do you feel that there was
something very much different about him?
Speaker 3: Well, it's hard to answer that question. He certainly was
affable enough. He wasn't like the sort of sinister image
of the men in black. He seemed real to me
that night, But the next morning I called Anne from
the hotel room and told her never to let me
decide if hadn't happened. So on some level he was unusual.
There was something about him that had struck me as
being unusual enough to where I would decide eventually that
this was all a dream and it had never happened.
Otherwise I wouldn't have called her so. And you know,
looking back on it now, I just can't answer the
question in all honesty as to whether or not he
was physically there. I do know that that night I
obviously perceived him as such, and the next morning was
concerned enough about it to call Anne and make her
get her to remind me that whenever I decided he
hadn't been real, that I had called her and told
her he was. So. You know, it's like all of
these things, the level in which they are real. If
you concretize it, you've lost it. You made a mistake,
and it's a matter of preserving the indeterminacy by not
looking at it in such a way that it coalesces
into a false belief or a belief. I don't think
there's any point in that. I don't believe in the
Master of the Key being either real, a fabrication, or
something from something connected with the universe in a way
that we don't understand. I just leave it in question.
When I say fabrication, I mean imagination. I would never
lie about any of this stuff, never.
Speaker 1: But a lot of it. There is a sense of
unreality when you have some of these experiences that maybe
they don't feel like and I've heard this from other experiencers,
that it may not exactly be happening on a conscious
level as we understand it.
Speaker 2: Now.
Speaker 1: That's not saying that it's happening in the mind. But
again it's here we get to the to the word
reality and what we think of What is reality? Is
we think of our consciousness, our conscious waking thoughts of
going to work and driving a car and eating dinner
or whatnot. That's our conscious reality, or is in fact
this the dream and what's happening on our subconscious or
on the dream state, maybe that's reality.
Speaker 3: When my son was seven, he had an encounter that
I record at the beginning of my second book, Transformation.
After that, he came in to breakfast in the morning
with a little piece of paper in his hand and
handed it to us. It was something he had written.
It was the phrase reality is God's dream. And I
said to him, who is God? And he smiled with
his big seven year old grin and said, we are
therein lies a problem, and the problem has a great
deal to do with what the question you just asked,
and why I can't answer it? Clearly? He was subsequently
has forgotten or says he has forgotten all of this
stuff and he's living in a normal life without any
of this. It's not in his life at all. And
I think that's just as well, because it interrupts your
life profoundly. And I've often thought to myself, would my
life have been if it hadn't been this. I wouldn't
trade it for anything, but it's very hard. It's really
hard on many different levels. The social level with the
bores and the idiots, and the personal level with the snickering,
sneering friends and friends I call them. And there's various sinister,
sort of shadowy groups I'm forced to interact with at
times that I don't enjoy at all. And then there
are the visitors and the wonders that they bring me.
I'm very used to them now in certain senses and
can interact in a way that is very productive for me.
So on balance, I'm glad I have this life. I
wouldn't trade it for anything, and I'm very grateful to
them for continuing to take an interest in me. As
improbable as that seems to me, it is true.
Speaker 1: The relationship that you had with the visitors changed over
a period of time from the direct contacts that you
had in the beginning, from when you started to remember
from December of nineteen eighty five. For a few years there,
and then it seemed to change form. I don't want
to say it stopped or went away, but.
Speaker 3: It did changed form for a while. But now it's
back to the same thing kind of contacts it was
at the beginning.
Speaker 1: Really okay, so they are fully back in your life
like they were.
Speaker 3: Back then, well, with the difference that it's they're not.
They no longer were strict themselves to the kind of
formula of linear experience. It's much richer and more complex
experience now than it was then because I understand it better.
It probably was then too, but I just understand it,
so I filtered out the parts I didn't understand. I
don't need to filter that out. I don't think anymore
that I could be filtering things out. I don't know.
But this is a very much richer experience, and it's
caused the things like the barrier between the living and
the dead to sort of fall away, and the ability
to move through space and time in a whole new
way is there?
Speaker 1: And what about the fear that you felt on those
first initial contacts where you were fearing, feeling such incredible
fear and terror as that transform. Do you still feel
trepidation at all when you start having these encounters, or.
Speaker 3: Have you become I'll tell you when I do. I
don't feel fear. When I'm completely invested in the physical,
even if they show up, I don't feel fear, and
I know I can exchange with them in a way
that is reliable. But when I go into my inner
self and therefore also out of my body, I feel
a vulnerability. And that is something I'm working on because
it's an illusion, it's not a real vulnerability at all.
And I think I was probably more vulnerable in the
physical when I was going out in the woods at night.
I mean, given what was happening in the neighborhood, they
might have been just aching to chess, sucking me dry.
And they didn't do it because they wanted They wanted
an ally who would later be a form of bait.
Speaker 1: That you had mentioned in the book in Supernatural And
then after this, Jeffrey, I haven't forgotten you. I want
I want to bring something up here with you. But
let me ask this one last question here.
Speaker 3: Who's Jeffrey. Yeah, who you mean, Jeff Jeff Jeff, of
course Jeff. Yeah, he's not a Jeffrey. You'd have to
meet him to know this.
Speaker 1: Okay? With you, you mentioned in the book that these
walks through the woods and you were feeling pulled to
go out there, and you were testing yourself and trying
to experience, and it almost seems like it was an
encouragement for you to take those steps and move forward.
But there was the one time you mentioned going out
there and you felt like there was something just beyond
the edge of the trees, that there was something else
out there following you that had almost not an evil intent,
but possibly a dangerous intent to you.
Speaker 3: And so many times I felt that way. I think
what you're talking about is the sense of I had something,
a feeling once out there that there was something that
it was just incredibly evil and it scared the hell
out of me.
Speaker 1: And you turned back.
Speaker 3: Oh, I turned back many times that I did turn
back then, Yes.
Speaker 1: But you felt like in the book, and maybe I
misread it wrong, but in the book you felt like
that they were testing you for something.
Speaker 3: But you was always they were always always I'm sorry,
they don't like this. We better change the subject. Can
you hear me?
Speaker 1: Yeah, I hear you, yeah, BRUI.
Speaker 3: Okay, listen the things I used thing I used to
do that was cool, and that was it really cemented
the relationship. Was I would go out and there you'd
go up a long rise and then there was a cliff.
The bottom of this cliff when it was running, there
was a thing called a kill, a little stream, and
in the cliff there was a cave and some very old,
very old artifacts had been found in that cave years before.
And it wasn't a deep cave. It was just a
little culed a sack in the rock, about ten or
twelve feet deep. But if I went in that I
was about a mile and a half out away from
any human habitation in any direction. I was completely helpless
in there, completely vulnerable, and when I turned off my
light there was no light at all. You couldn't see anything.
That was the place where my relationship with them changed
and they began to treat me with some respect.
Speaker 1: H Jeffrey. Let me ask you based on what Whitley
mentioned with his son, and I feel this is a
perfect question for you considering your background. That the son
mentioned that we were God is us or we are God?
How do you interpret that from your position?
Speaker 2: Well, that standard, that standardistical philosophy and a lot of religions.
It's not surprising at all to me that he'd say that.
I mean, one of the things that I kept thinking
about listening to your conversation with literally about talk and
about time travel and about real these experiences of being
many people at once, is that again, these are just
really classical notions of reincarnation. I mean, what you're really
talking about is the soul. And all kinds of reincarnation
traditions in Asia, say in Toda or China, reincarnation is
a way of talking about being many people at once, essentially,
And I think one of the reasons again that we
were so puzzled by so many of these experiences is
that fundamentally they're about the soul, and we no longer
believe in a soul. We've lost the language, we've lost
the sensibility, and so we you know, invoke physics or something.
But in fact, what we're talking about is the soul.
And in a lot of these religious traditions, particularly in Asia, again,
the soul is identical with the God hand. There is
no distinction between the human spirit and the divine none
at all. So the human being, if he or she's
identified completely with the immortal soul, can indeed say I
am God, because they truly are in that system. So
some way, what We's son was sort of intuiting a
kind of natural mystical identity between the soul and the
divine that we find all over the world to this day.
Speaker 1: That seems to me, my mind, to be part of
the problem. Is our Western culture in general is a
part of the problem because we are trained from a
very early age to look at the world from an analytical,
separated perspective that we're not a part of this world.
We are in this world, but the world is separate
and we are us. And instead of being interconnected, Native
American cultures, many of them and many other Aboriginal cultures
around the world, have more of a nature based view
of reality. They've looked at themselves as being a part
of the earth, a part of the world, a part
of the universe, where Western people we just seem to
separate ourselves from everything. There's us, okay, up there in heaven,
there's God, there's the devil down here, this and that,
But we are all separated from everything, and I think
that's what's keeping us from evolving because Western culture has
dominated the planet in the last centur has dominated the
planet in the last century, and it seems to be
making it even more difficult called for us to be
able to commune, I guess, to use your title of
your book, Whittley, to commune with these forces and these
intelligences the way that maybe we were.
Speaker 3: Meant to be.
Speaker 2: Well sure, And of course the problem is is that
you know, Western science and technology gets so many things
right and gives us so many things, so many precious,
precious things that we want, and we wouldn't think of
giving up like anesthesia or you know, modern communications like
where we're on now. So it's not as if the
scientific the Western world is wrong, it's that it's incomplete.
And it's that we've locked off a big part of
ourselves too, so that we can specialize in these sort
of analytical, mechanical and technological skills. But but you know,
we've lost something too. And other cultures, of course, specialize
on the soul or specialize on on on magical practice,
and they sacrifice other things. So there's no there's no
perfect culture here, we want to be certainly critical of
our own culture, but we don't want to pretend that
some other culture has it all right, because they don't.
I mean, I study cultures for a living, and I
can tell you there's no such thing as a perfect culture.
They all they all do some things well, and they
do other things not just poorly but horrifically, including ours.
So that's sort of the dilemma of being a human
being is that you know, you come into the world
as an infant and you're literally capable of speaking any
language on the planet. You're capable of becoming any culture
that you can't of course, all cultures who have to
be socialized into one and so you lose all those
language capacities as your brain and your lips and your
tongue focusing on one language. So that's just part of
being human. But I think when you know, we run
into somebody like Willy here who's had a set of
remarkable experiences that make good sense and another cultural framework
that seem anomalous or strange in ours, I mean, this
is where we have to, you know, stop and think
about that.
Speaker 1: Where do you and Jeffrey, this is for you in
your time with Whitley and working with him and writing
this book Supernatural. Do you see us as a species
being able to move forward? Or are we in danger
of falling very much behind? You see? Do you see
as being able to and with the interaction that Whitley's
had with the visitors and seeming to push our consciousness,
do we have the ability now to break free of
these limitations, moving forward and expanding our awareness and consciousness
or are we in danger of falling back into a
new dark Ages?
Speaker 2: Well, I mean, I think it's probably a little of both.
I'm a historian, that's my profession, and as Whitley mentioned earlier,
history is a very tricky thing. We assumed that history
is this linear line with dates, and we all know
what the story was. You know, we had, as you said,
we just had the Dark Ages, and then we had
the Renaissance, and then the Reformation, and then the Enlightenment
and then the Industrial Age, and now we're in the
modern period. Well, that's a story. That's not what happened.
That's a story that we tell by selecting a few
elements out of trillions and trillions and weaving them into
a narrative that we call history. But we can look
back at that those same elements, the same facts, and
we can leave a different history with a different moral.
So in terms of the question of are we evolving
or are we falling back? Really what you're asking Mark
is what kind of story should we be telling ourselves?
How should we be putting the elements of history together
to move forward or fall back? I think we want
to think of ourselves as moving forward, and I think
in many ways we are, But I don't think we
should be naive about that and just assume that the
story we're telling ourselves is the only story that can
be told. And again that's where I think the subduction
events are so important. It's because they mess up our
story and they force us to rethink it. So I
would just be really careful about any kind of simple
You know, we're moving forward, we're evolving. We were once
naive and primitive and now we're modern and great. I'm
very suspicious of this, that narrative, Oh I am.
Speaker 1: I am too. In fact, I've really been leaning towards
the idea that perhaps our existence is much older than
we want. Then modern science or archaeology will have us believe,
and we may have been looking at many, many different
times where humanity or version of it has been on
this planet has reached a high level of advancement evolution technology,
only to be knocked back by natural disaster, by man
made disaster, and we start all over again from scratch.
We could have had many different cycles. A good example
would be the the stories that you know come from
Atlantis and the Muria and these other advanced ancient civilizations,
to the advanced cultures in India and the god I
can't even say it tonight, Hamamata, Okay, I'm not even
gonna forget the Indian epics and talking about these great
you know, societies and these flying machines and different technologies
that seem to be here many years ago, and a
lot of people what's popular is of course the Ancient
Aliens television series, and people think, yes, Aliens came down
and gave all of this information to mankind. But I
don't quite buy that as much anymore. While we might
have had some influence by the Visitors or other beings,
I have a feeling that we as entities, as an intelligence,
may have been here for much much, much longer and
have gone through many different cycles. In these last several
thousand years is just the latest cycle in our existence.
What do you think to that, Jeffrey.
Speaker 2: Well, I think that's another story. I think that's a
story that people that put together by selecting a very
few archaeological facts or elements, and then they put those
elements together to form a story that's different than the
one that professional archaeology or anthropology gives them. So, I,
you know, again, not that I have the correct story. Mark,
I'm not claiming to have the right story. I'm trying
to just suggest that we're always writing ourselves. We're always
telling another story, and we need to be more aware
of that, and we need to tell a story that
it is more adequate to what we know about the
world and ourselves today. I will give you a simple example.
Eighteen fifty nine, Darwin's Origin as Species comes out. It
was devastating, absolutely devastating to a lot of Evangelical Christians
in the English speaking world. And the reason that was
so devastating was because it gave another very plausible story
for essentially the creation of the world the human species
that was completely different than the biblical story. You know,
and I think we're in that, We're always in a
similar situation. We're finding out more and more about the world,
more and more about ourselves, more and more about the
human genome. I think we're going to have a lot
of Darwinian like revolutions in our thinking over the next
couple hundred years. I don't think we're done discovering new
things about the human species. And I think as we
do that our stories are going to change quite dramatically.
So again again, you know, being a scholar of religion
is not about pushing a particular religion or pushing a
particular story. It's about making people aware that we're all
telling stories and that we're all living in a story
that we call a religion, our culture, and so that's
a that's a tough thing to do sometimes.
Speaker 1: Well, you know, one thing that I've had the privilege
of with this show for the past five years is
having people like yourself, and I have learned so much
and I continue to learn as we go, and the
concepts that we talk about here tonight, Jeffrey, especially this
last comment you've made about our stories, even that's opening
my eyes and making me think in new and different ways.
And you know, between yourself and Whitley, if that is
the goal of or one of the goals that you're
looking to achieve, is to just get these stories out
there so people can can think on it and expand
their awareness of our reality or what we think is
our reality, of our existence. Then you're doing a marvelous
job because we need to question ourselves. We need to
question everything that we're being taught, what we think we
know in reality, and be open to the fact that
we don't have the answers. We don't know. It all
are constantly evolving and learning, and that's what I want
to do on this show. Is I love talking with
guests such as yourself, because I look at this for
me as I'm the student. I'm having a learning experience
and I try to take something away from from the
conversations that we have here. Now, the book The Paranormal,
I mean sorry, The super Natural was just released not
long ago, Whitley, Where can people find that book?
Speaker 3: That's a good question. Probably safest to look forward online
on Amazon or Barnes and Noble or somewhere.
Speaker 1: I got my copy on Kindle, so you can also
get it as an ebook format as well. And are
are both of you are? Do you doing any types
of speaking experiences or our conferences to talk about this
subject further? Are you just doing the radio shows at
this point in time?
Speaker 3: It's radio shows as far as I know.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I routinely lecture, mostly at universities around the US
and in Europe, but you know, none, none in the
near in the near future. We both have very active websites.
That's another place people can go more.
Speaker 1: And uh, Jeffrey, can you tell people what your website is?
Speaker 2: It's just Cripel dot rice dot e d U so
k R I p A L dot r I c
E dot e d U and all my books and
projects are summarized there listed there.
Speaker 1: And Whitley your website, which I'm very familiar with, Unknown
Country dot com. Yes, and you also have your own,
uh radio show that you do, Dreamland.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's right. Dreamland is on Unknown Country, and so
is Jerrymy Vaney's The Experience, which is another show. It's
more conversational and he mostly talks to close encounter witnesses
and it's quite good.
Speaker 1: Well, one final question, where now that the book is out,
what do you want the end result to be? At
this point, what are you hoping to achieve with this
book out?
Speaker 3: There now.
Speaker 2: Well, the point of the book is not to push
another story, but to push the conversation up another level
and get people to think about the stories we're telling
about these sorts of experiences, and to provide the conversation
with a lot more nuanced and a lot more sophistication
than it's had up to this point. Really is that fair? Yeah?
Speaker 3: I think so fantastic.
Speaker 1: Well, Whitley and Jeff, I just want to thank you
both for coming on the show tonight. It's been wonderful
talking with both of you. And Bruce Pearson has asked
to send his apologies for the technical issues he had
on his end, and he wants to wish you both well.
Irene are you Are you still there?
Speaker 6: Yeah?
Speaker 1: I'm here, Okay.
Speaker 6: Yeah, it was a great Sean as.
Speaker 3: Well.
Speaker 1: Again, thank you gentlemen for coming on and we really
loved having you and we would love to have you
come back again sometime in the future.
Speaker 3: Thank you very much.
Speaker 2: Thank you, mar thank you, thank you.
Speaker 1: And thank you everyone for listening to another edition of
Unknown Origins Radio. You can listen live on Wednesday nights
here on Unknown Origins Radio dot com and on Mondays
at ten pm Eastern time on the Dark Matter Digital
at work. Thank you for listening everybody, and have a
great night Irene. Take care okay.