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Speaker 1: You're listening to a classic edition of the Unknown Origins

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Radio show here on the Paranormal UK Radio Network.

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Speaker 2: This is Nick Redfern and you're listening to Unknown Origins Radio.

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Speaker 3: We live in a world filled with the unknown. You

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can't handle it through. I must tad as hell, but

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I'm not trying to take this anymore.

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Speaker 1: Game over, man, Game over. I got your name, I

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got your mask.

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Speaker 3: We will not go quietly into the night. We will

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not vanish.

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Speaker 4: Not a night.

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Speaker 3: Welcome to Unknown Origin.

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Speaker 1: And good evening everybody. Welcome to another live edition of

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Unknown Origins Radio. We're on Unknown Origins Radio dot com

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and we are also broadcasting live on talkstream Live and

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Jersey Talk Radio dot com, where you can watch the

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live video feed. I'm your host, Mark Johnson, and joining

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us down from their studios in Flemington at the Jersey

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Talk Radio Studios. Mister Bruce Pearson, how are you tonight, Bruce?

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Speaker 3: Excellent?

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Speaker 5: Mark, Thanks good to be here. Great weather for a change,

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and looking forward to tonight's great. We've got some great guests,

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so I'm looking forward to a great show.

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Speaker 1: Yes, I'm really excited about this one. So we're gonna

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get right to everything first, of all, we have to

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say hi to Irene Alan Block all the way over

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in the UK tonight. How you doing, Irene.

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Speaker 6: I'm doing fine. Sounds like it's going to be a

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good night tonight.

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Speaker 1: I think it will be. We just had a thunderstorm

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roll through here a little bit ago, so it just

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got me in that, you know, electrified mood.

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Speaker 7: So I'm I'm already to yeah, yeah, you know, you

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know it's it's we're gonna weird period of time right

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now because everything that's going on here, especially in the

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United States, which thankfully you don't have to put up with, Irene, the.

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Speaker 1: Political season, the presidential race season, it's getting crazier and crazier,

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and I just feel like, you know, the nuts have

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taken over the crazy house. It's a it's a very

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unique time in our history.

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Speaker 3: I think.

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Speaker 1: I don't really think it's such a good thing, but

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it's definitely entertaining. It like like watching a car wreck

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in process. So, yeah, this is going to be an

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interesting next few months. Bruser, How is your week?

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Speaker 3: This week? Very hectic?

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Speaker 5: We're in the studio with Food Network. Just barely made

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it down here to the studio here in time, so

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it's it's keeping busy, but you know, it's all good.

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Like I said, the weather's broken, so it's you know,

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around sixty degrees and that's all.

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Speaker 3: We're thankful for that.

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Speaker 5: But watching their festivities in the national election chaos is

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always entertaining, if not scary.

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Speaker 3: So there's a lot going on, so it's all good.

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Speaker 1: And I want to mention that this is the second

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week now that Irene, you've had also your new show

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that's also broadcasting on Dark Matter, and it just aired

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again tonight. Could you tell everybody a little bit about that?

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Speaker 6: Paranormal Adventures UK, isn't it? We have fun, we talk

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about all the paranormal stuff. It's hard to talk about

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it because we've only done two shows at the moment,

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but you know, we've got a lot of things lined

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up and a lot of guests lined up, and a

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lot of surprises lined up. But I don't want to

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ruin it by saying too much about it.

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Speaker 1: No, no, that way not.

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Speaker 6: The surprise is.

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Speaker 1: Since I help out on the show, I'm privy to

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some of the surprises, and yeah, they're going to be

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a lot of fun coming up. But you know, for

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people we'll be going out.

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Speaker 6: For drink and one thing or another and find in

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a few spirits from bottles.

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Speaker 1: Don't we pop on down to the pub and talk

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the paranormal. That could be a lot of fun. I

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just wanted to mention to everyone that you can hear

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Paranormal Adventures UK every Wednesday night on the dark Matter

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Radio Network at six pm Eastern Time. But then in

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the UK, well this week it's all best up because

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you guys are behind us in the daylight Savings time,

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so right now tonight it aired at ten o'clock, but

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once you catch up to us, then it'll be at

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nine o'clock Greenwich meantime every week. So when do you

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catch up to us? By the way, I've got no idea.

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Speaker 6: I think a couple of weeks.

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Speaker 1: Good lord, Well, we'll make sure we post that. But

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you can listen to the show every week on dark

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Matter and then the podcast we'll be posted afterwards. And

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speaking of dark Matter, while we are broadcasting live on

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Wednesdays on our website and on talkstream Live, you can

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hear us. The repeat of tonight's show will be the

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next Monday on dark Matter Digital Network at ten pm

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Eastern time. As we lead in with the lead and

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show before Heather Wade and Midnight in the Desert. So

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a lot of great things happening, and I think we

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just want to get right into the show tonight. We

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have two guests that are joining us this evening, two

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authors who have come together to write a very new,

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unique book. One of them is somebody that I've really

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wanted to have on this program for many years, and

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I'm thrilled that he's able to come on and join

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us tonight. I want to introduce mister Whitley Strieber. How

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are you tonight, Whitley fine, thank you, And then I

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also want to introduce your co author on the new book, Jeffrey.

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And Jeff, I have to ask you, is that the

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correct way to say your name?

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Speaker 2: Well, no, we say cripel.

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Speaker 1: Okay, that's my bad. I should have asked him before

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we came on the air tonight. But I'll save it

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by calling you Jeff. But just give a little bit

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of background. Jeff is a professor of philosophy and religious

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thought and the former chair of the Department of Religious

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Studies at Rice University in Houston, Texas. And Whitley, of course,

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a lot of people know Whitley from his novels. He's

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written many novels over the years, two of which have

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been turned into three of which I take that back,

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three which have been turned into feature films.

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Speaker 2: No.

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Speaker 1: Four. Account's going up in my head, Whitley as we talk.

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But I have to mention that The wolfin one of

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my favorite films with Albert Finney from the eighties. I

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always thought that was a brilliant movie and a brilliant

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adaptation of your book. But then you also in nineteen

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eighty you wrote Communion and really, for better or for worse,

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changed your own life and the life of many people

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who have read that book. So now tonight you both

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are on with this brand new book called The Supernatural. Whitley,

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could you tell us a little bit about what brought

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this book about.

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Speaker 3: Jeff brought it about, Okay, Jeff wanted. We sort of

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fell into the idea of doing it together, and Jeff

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was very enthusiastic about it. I really forget which one

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of us thought about it first, But in any case,

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Jeff took A has taken a serious interest in my work,

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and he is a very fine scholar and one of

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the few really serious scholars of modern mythology, and I

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just found him terribly interesting to talk to for a

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lot of reasons, not the least of which is that

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he's quite open minded in the sense of not believing,

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but rather being willing to entertain the question in a

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fairly sophisticated manner. And it started really with a discussion,

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a long kind of ongoing discussion that began in about

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Jeff was about twenty ten.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it was about twenty ten. I was writing Newton Stimistic,

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so it must have been nine.

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Speaker 3: Must have been nine, Yeah, probably two thousand and nine

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or twenty ten. And the discussion gradually turned into a book.

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Speaker 1: Now, the book book is a very interesting take on

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a subject that, you know, the paranormal, the supernatural or

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high strangeness and all these different strange things that happened

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to us to mankind. I mean, we've been reporting strange

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encounters since the beginning of written history and before that

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with oral history for thousands and thousands of years, and

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yet we seem to have our own ideas, whether they're

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religious based or culturally based ideas of what we're dealing

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with in terms of the paranormal. And your approach to

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this book was to try to put a very brand new,

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unique perspective on that. I was wondering if you could

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tell a little bit more about that.

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Speaker 3: Well, is that a question from here for Jeff?

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Speaker 1: Jeff, could you speak to that?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, why don't you do it?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? Yeah, Lillie and I have been on a number

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of radio shows and it really helps if you just

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tell us who who you'd like to answer the question.

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So yeah, So the book began really with my reading

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of these visitor corpuses in nine and ten, which began

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this long discussion, and we began to meet over the

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years and correspond at great length. And the basic idea

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was that the conversation around the supernatural of the paranormal

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had sort of split into two schizophrenically, split into those

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who take the phenomena quite literally and essentially believe it,

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and those who think it's all bunk. And we wanted

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to suggest that there's a third way that you can

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take these experiences very seriously and as part of the

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real world, but you don't need to take them little.

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You can interpret them as issuing from some other dimension

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of the natural world. So we called it the supernatural

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that doesn't come through on radio very well. But that's

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three words, not two, And the basic argument we wanted

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to advance or at least suggest, was that these sorts

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of things are part of our real world. They're natural,

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but they're also super They extend beyond any kind of

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normal experience of the world. So it's a way of

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shifting the conversation and trying to have a more nuanced

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conversation about these things.

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Speaker 1: One of the things that as myself as a self

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proclaimed paranormal investigator at least you know, for the last

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sixteen years and the research I've done, is we mentioned

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that many many times this program my differing and changing

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points of view and opinions on what really constitutes the paranormal.

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And I used air quotes when I say that or

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the super natural, because it's constantly changing. And Whitley, I

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have to give you a lot of credit in your

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books because I started reading your books since Communion came out,

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and I read almost every single one that came out

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after that over years, read them several times, and there

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were times when you would mention concepts in there that

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I really struggled with. I really didn't understand, I really

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didn't know what to think about them. And then over

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time my point of view has started coming around, and

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I have those epiphanies that I have a better understanding

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of it in terms of getting away from the idea

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that we're dealing with aliens from another planet, which seems

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to be what most of the nuts and bolts eufology

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groups look at these days, into something that's very, very strange.

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Trying to think exactly how I want to phrase this,

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Just the encounters that you had, and you would go

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over a lot more different encounters in the new book

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continue to seem to push the boundaries of what's out there.

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When you started writing Communion and the other books, did

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you find yourself holding back on a lot because you

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thought it was just going to be too strange and

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people wouldn't accept it.

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Speaker 3: How interesting that you would ask that question just now

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I've been discussing that with Jeff today. Yes, is the answer.

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I do hold back a lot and will continue to

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do so.

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Speaker 1: You had mentioned in the book there were a couple

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of instances that you actually came out and talked about

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for the first time, and I understand your hesitance of

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wanting to mention some of these experiences that you had

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because of the backlash or the or the giggle factor,

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as Bruce and I talk about, you know, and the

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response and that the public or the media, i should say,

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would have and retaliating against you because when you mentioned,

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you know, the probes in your earlier things, and then

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the course people make fun of it becomes a joke.

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And yeah, you took that very seriously, and that was

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very hurtful for you.

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Speaker 3: Well, it was. I shouldn't have. I tried to be

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discreet in the book, not realizing that I really shouldn't

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have put that in at all. I learned my lesson,

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and it's taken a long time. It took me twenty

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years to even say to my wife the word rape,

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that I had been raped. And the result of this

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was people were free to mock me for having been raped,

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and they did that a lot on the television, on

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the radio, in every venue you can possibly imagine. Even

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even it became even a kind of a comic comedy

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meme in with old comedians. And that one of those

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television shows, in animated television shows, I forget.

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Speaker 1: Which one it was, Yeah, south Park.

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Speaker 3: South Park, Yeah exactly. I don't I'm sorry, but I

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don't ever watch them, and I'm not very interested in them.

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But it became it became sort of a It was

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something that I had to deal with, and it became

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very personal because whenever I appeared anywhere, even in a

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private situation with friends, I could see the laughter in

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their faces. They were aching to burst out into laughter

252
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about it. It was agonizing because being raped is hard,

253
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it's difficult, it's a tremendous emotional challenge, and to add

254
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this to it was grotesque. It was really difficult, and

255
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especially because I am not absolutely sure to this day

256
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precisely what happened.

257
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Speaker 1: Now when you had your first experiences back in December

258
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of nineteen eighty five. At the time it happened, that

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moment you thought this was it was something so strange

260
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and beyond anything you could have imagined. You had no

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idea that this has been happening to you most of

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your life.

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Speaker 3: It became it was a surprise to me when I

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was with doctor Donald Klein, who it was a fascinating man.

265
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He had interviewed many people and used hypnosis to help

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them gain a memory of experiences such as tum trauma

267
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that was associated with crimes, hit and run accidents and

268
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so forth, and had actually solved many cases this way,

269
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so there was little question in my mind that his

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techniques were effective in drawing forth memory, not imagination. And

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at the time he was introduced to me by a

272
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UFO investigator, Bud Hopkins, and I have to admit that

273
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both doctor Klein and myself were laughing up our sleeves

274
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at Bud Hopkins's what we regarded as a pretty unsophisticated

275
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conviction about alien abduction. And then I had the hypnosis,

276
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and what I came to me under hypnosis was frankly appalling.

277
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I still to this day don't understand it. And not

278
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only that. About a year later, after Communions published, a

279
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rather shamefaced neighbor of mine told me that he had

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been actually driving home from a party that night and

281
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had seen in a field near our houses in upstate

282
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New York a gray object. And he was a retired

283
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state policeman, and he felt he should stop and render

284
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aid because it looked to him like a blimp had

285
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descended into the field in the middle of the night,

286
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and obviously that would be an accident of some kind.

287
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So he stopped and got out and climbed over the

288
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fence and began walking toward it. He heard human screaming

289
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from inside and began running. Then suddenly lights turned on

290
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all over it, and it made a growling sound and

291
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came toward him across the field, and his wife became

292
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panicky back in the car and began to scream, and

293
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he ran and got into the car and drove away,

294
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and then he came across. Actually we talked about what

295
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had happened to me a few weeks afterwards, because at

296
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the time I wanted to find out I thought I

297
00:19:48,160 --> 00:19:55,240
had been the victim of a crime, and I wanted

298
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his advice as to who in the police, in the

299
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state police I should go to, or the sheriff's department

300
00:20:02,519 --> 00:20:05,960
to talk about this. It wasn't until I never actually

301
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did that, because during the course of my own investigations,

302
00:20:10,759 --> 00:20:13,640
it soon became obvious that this was If it was

303
00:20:13,680 --> 00:20:17,319
a crime, it was no ordinary crime. And he was

304
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very ashamed of not having said what he had seen

305
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on when I talked to him, because he thought it

306
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was connected in some way, And I don't to this

307
00:20:28,079 --> 00:20:31,400
day no if it was or not. Maybe it was

308
00:20:32,240 --> 00:20:35,720
simply a UFO and I was inside it, and all

309
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of the things I remember are absolute physical facts, but

310
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I can't get away from the fact that even if

311
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that is true, other things that are more important must

312
00:20:52,920 --> 00:20:58,000
also be true. And that was where Jeff comes in.

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Speaker 5: Well, I'd like to jump in here if I may,

314
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and I think it's important after you know, forty some

315
00:21:06,559 --> 00:21:12,880
years of investigating this community in its larger sense, rather

316
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than you know, starting in you know, unexplained phenomena down

317
00:21:17,119 --> 00:21:19,480
in Roswell in nineteen seventy six when I was working

318
00:21:19,519 --> 00:21:24,240
down there in College Whitney. If you'll indulge me, I

319
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think it strikes me all the time, as you know,

320
00:21:27,480 --> 00:21:34,240
a documentary producer, the real human side. And I mean

321
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this in the most literal sense of the toll that

322
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these type of events have on people, you know.

323
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Speaker 3: Think.

324
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Speaker 5: I think that I always ask people when I lecture

325
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to play to try to put themselves in the mindset

326
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of someone whose life is completely and irreversibly turned upside down.

327
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And I think you're obviously your experiences aren't extreme case.

328
00:22:01,599 --> 00:22:06,759
That evidence is the trauma and the agony and the

329
00:22:06,799 --> 00:22:11,559
pain as a victim, I mean, and only other way

330
00:22:11,599 --> 00:22:14,720
you could describe it in your case. But I think

331
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if people try to picture how life altering these episodes

332
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are even to the extent from a professional level, as

333
00:22:23,559 --> 00:22:26,359
you say the State trooper. I mean, I've gone all

334
00:22:26,359 --> 00:22:30,079
over the world doing aviation documentaries and what I've been

335
00:22:30,079 --> 00:22:33,720
told behind the scenes by commercial pilots and military pilots

336
00:22:33,720 --> 00:22:39,880
and law enforcement personnel and people that have said, look,

337
00:22:40,039 --> 00:22:42,160
you know, I could never say this, but I'll never

338
00:22:42,240 --> 00:22:46,440
look at things the same again. I think it's very important,

339
00:22:46,480 --> 00:22:52,839
and I must applaud. I mean, all the humiliation that

340
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you've had to endure, you know, things that you just elaborated,

341
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and many many more that we would never need to

342
00:22:59,039 --> 00:23:04,200
know about, nor should we is just an amazing burden

343
00:23:04,240 --> 00:23:06,160
to carry. And for you to go public on this

344
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and stand your ground and remain steadfast. And you know,

345
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I have been fortunate to read communion in the books

346
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and do a lot of research, and certainly I know

347
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Linda and have listened to many of your interviews, and

348
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so I am at least acquainted to publicly what you've

349
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had to share with people. And you know, to bear

350
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your soul for the sake of bringing this information forward,

351
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because it's incredibly important that people realize that sincere intelligent

352
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people like yourself are willing to put your you know,

353
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yourself on the line and bear this, you know, this

354
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kind of humiliation with people that are less than professional

355
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in their approach to get this information out, and it's

356
00:24:00,680 --> 00:24:03,039
I want to just say, if I may real quickly

357
00:24:03,079 --> 00:24:05,920
bring up another point. We've been working with a gentleman

358
00:24:05,960 --> 00:24:12,480
that I've known since my childhood who ironically, just in

359
00:24:12,599 --> 00:24:15,960
nineteen ninety four, Markhorre, you published his book, and certainly

360
00:24:16,000 --> 00:24:19,759
we're not about him tonight, but the concept of super

361
00:24:19,799 --> 00:24:27,200
normal events supernatural and the concept that maybe all of

362
00:24:27,240 --> 00:24:32,039
these type of unexplained phenomena have some type of link

363
00:24:32,079 --> 00:24:38,039
that we're just now at least evaluating, if not corroborating.

364
00:24:38,480 --> 00:24:43,519
I think is a very interesting and fascinating turn of

365
00:24:44,799 --> 00:24:47,559
bringing together the nuts and bolts people, and I tend

366
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in general to be one of those people, being a pilot,

367
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but also the paranormal aspects that don't lend themselves to

368
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the nuts and bolts research. So forgive me for this

369
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long winded introduction, but I think I really respect anyone

370
00:25:02,960 --> 00:25:07,160
who has gone through what you have to bring for

371
00:25:07,400 --> 00:25:09,880
something that would be very easy to say, I will

372
00:25:09,880 --> 00:25:13,519
never talk to anybody about this for so many valid reasons.

373
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So I think you'd to be applauded for that, and

374
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your work stands on its own merit. So let me

375
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let you go back and respond to that. Either of you, gentlemen, Well, okay,

376
00:25:23,960 --> 00:25:29,759
I'll respond first. My interest in this is what can

377
00:25:29,799 --> 00:25:34,759
I get from it from the contact experience? What is

378
00:25:34,799 --> 00:25:40,160
in it for me? And I'm the negative side of

379
00:25:40,200 --> 00:25:45,440
it is there, and we go through that extensively and supernatural,

380
00:25:45,440 --> 00:25:49,200
and I've never shrunk and shrunk from talking about it

381
00:25:49,240 --> 00:25:56,039
because the business of aliens here wonderful from somewhere and

382
00:25:56,799 --> 00:25:59,440
coming in and if only the government would quit shooting

383
00:25:59,480 --> 00:26:02,720
at them. They give us a plans for a starship

384
00:26:02,799 --> 00:26:05,599
or whatever spiritual growth.

385
00:26:07,680 --> 00:26:14,759
Speaker 3: That's not on in my mind. It's not what's happening neither, however,

386
00:26:15,799 --> 00:26:21,119
is this anger that people get and where they end

387
00:26:21,200 --> 00:26:29,920
up sitting passively angry and unable to really make anything

388
00:26:30,000 --> 00:26:33,319
out of this for themselves. When I realized there was

389
00:26:33,599 --> 00:26:38,920
very definitely something extremely strange happening in my life, and

390
00:26:38,960 --> 00:26:42,319
it was out in the woods. I went out into

391
00:26:42,480 --> 00:26:46,000
the woods in the night alone, night after night after night.

392
00:26:46,759 --> 00:26:51,119
When I first started doing it, putting one foot in

393
00:26:51,160 --> 00:26:57,440
front of the other. It took actual concentration. It wasn't

394
00:26:57,480 --> 00:27:02,440
something My body didn't just walk. I had to literally

395
00:27:02,519 --> 00:27:06,519
lift my legs and do it. It was like walking

396
00:27:06,559 --> 00:27:13,359
into and walking into a layer of panthers. But I

397
00:27:13,440 --> 00:27:17,720
did it, and I have been doing it ever since.

398
00:27:18,359 --> 00:27:21,519
I still do it. I'm still involved. It's not over,

399
00:27:22,960 --> 00:27:31,599
and what started as a ferociously difficult experience has become

400
00:27:33,720 --> 00:27:39,160
an illumination of the deepest and most profound sort. And Jeff,

401
00:27:39,440 --> 00:27:42,200
why don't you talk a little bit about the dangerous sacred?

402
00:27:42,279 --> 00:27:44,880
You know so much about that?

403
00:27:47,920 --> 00:27:51,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, before I talk about the sacred, if

404
00:27:51,680 --> 00:27:54,920
I could just comment on what's been said. I think

405
00:27:55,000 --> 00:28:01,599
the way lihity has been shamed and humiliated by these

406
00:28:01,680 --> 00:28:05,920
cultural forces, I think that in itself needs to be interrogated.

407
00:28:07,079 --> 00:28:11,079
I think really what's at stake here is our view

408
00:28:11,119 --> 00:28:17,400
of reality itself, and Whitley's experiences, like many many many

409
00:28:17,440 --> 00:28:24,599
other people's experiences, are direct challenges or subversions really of

410
00:28:25,559 --> 00:28:30,359
what our Western culture assumes to be a rather full

411
00:28:30,440 --> 00:28:34,279
and complete picture of reality. So when someone like Whitley

412
00:28:34,559 --> 00:28:38,279
stands up and actually describes something that can't be fit

413
00:28:38,359 --> 00:28:42,200
into that, the system, as it were, has a kind

414
00:28:42,240 --> 00:28:50,200
of immunological response, and it attacks the perceived violence as

415
00:28:50,240 --> 00:28:53,079
it were, and surrounds it and in this case makes

416
00:28:53,119 --> 00:28:56,759
fun of it. So I think that's really very much

417
00:28:56,799 --> 00:28:59,000
worth keeping in mind that what we're really talking when

418
00:28:59,000 --> 00:29:02,480
we're talking about the shaming practices is a kind of

419
00:29:02,519 --> 00:29:07,480
immunological response from a social body or the perceived violence,

420
00:29:07,559 --> 00:29:12,680
as it were. And in terms of the left handed sacred,

421
00:29:14,599 --> 00:29:18,839
the sacred is a basic category and the study of religion.

422
00:29:19,759 --> 00:29:22,799
And by the sacred, we do not mean the good

423
00:29:23,359 --> 00:29:26,960
or the ethical or the moral. We mean we mean

424
00:29:27,039 --> 00:29:31,079
the holy. We mean some kind of awesome energy or

425
00:29:31,200 --> 00:29:36,880
presence in the environment that can kill one as easily

426
00:29:37,079 --> 00:29:41,279
as it can fascinate or a ruer one. So the

427
00:29:41,359 --> 00:29:45,000
sacred has a positive quality, but it also has a

428
00:29:45,039 --> 00:29:51,680
profoundly negative as quality. Human beings historically have been as

429
00:29:51,720 --> 00:29:54,240
afraid of the sacred as they have been drawn to it.

430
00:29:55,079 --> 00:29:58,359
So this, again, I think helps helps us understand what

431
00:29:58,480 --> 00:30:02,440
these experiences they They can be terrifying and they can

432
00:30:02,519 --> 00:30:09,240
still be genuine encounters with something very very real. So

433
00:30:09,400 --> 00:30:10,920
I hope that helps.

434
00:30:12,200 --> 00:30:16,599
Speaker 1: And Jeffrey, I totally agree with you. And again that's

435
00:30:16,640 --> 00:30:21,200
another reason that I really fell in love with this

436
00:30:21,279 --> 00:30:25,519
book is because of these ideas and looking at things,

437
00:30:25,559 --> 00:30:30,359
trying to break out of our traditional Western ideas of

438
00:30:30,680 --> 00:30:35,640
these types of strange events, getting away from the labels

439
00:30:35,680 --> 00:30:39,960
that we've put on things and having everything all neatly packaged,

440
00:30:40,559 --> 00:30:47,240
because when doing so, we don't think basically, I'm in

441
00:30:47,240 --> 00:30:49,759
a nutshell. We stop thinking, and we use our labels

442
00:30:49,799 --> 00:30:52,960
and we go, Okay, I understand that, sure, they're aliens

443
00:30:52,960 --> 00:30:57,359
coming from zeta reticulate. Okay, that makes sense to most people.

444
00:30:57,440 --> 00:31:01,640
But what's really happening. It seems to be so much,

445
00:31:03,240 --> 00:31:09,480
so much more wondrous and terrifying and beyond our comprehension

446
00:31:09,799 --> 00:31:12,519
in most ways, I have to say, and this is

447
00:31:12,519 --> 00:31:15,839
one of the things that really got me Whitley with

448
00:31:16,000 --> 00:31:18,319
reading your books over the years and coming to a

449
00:31:18,359 --> 00:31:21,799
better understanding. And we've had a wonderful opportunity on this

450
00:31:21,839 --> 00:31:26,240
program to interview and speak with people who've had the

451
00:31:26,279 --> 00:31:31,279
similar experiences to yours, and they all have gone through

452
00:31:31,519 --> 00:31:35,640
both the very negative in terms of how the media

453
00:31:35,640 --> 00:31:40,920
and society reacts to them. But there's those the truth

454
00:31:40,960 --> 00:31:43,200
that's in those words that I think it's that truth

455
00:31:43,240 --> 00:31:47,039
that's what's really terrifying for most people because it shatters

456
00:31:47,079 --> 00:31:50,880
their illusions of what we think of as reality, and

457
00:31:51,079 --> 00:31:53,759
I've always felt that reality as we know it is

458
00:31:53,799 --> 00:31:57,319
a complete illusion. There's much more out there that we

459
00:31:57,440 --> 00:31:59,920
have to open our minds to, but it's going to

460
00:31:59,880 --> 00:32:04,920
take some time before we can even get there. Welly,

461
00:32:05,000 --> 00:32:07,000
you mentioned when you talked about going out into the

462
00:32:07,039 --> 00:32:10,559
woods and the fear that you felt and the absolute

463
00:32:10,599 --> 00:32:13,799
terror and taking that step one step at a time.

464
00:32:15,240 --> 00:32:18,880
There's a concept that I've been hearing from people who've

465
00:32:18,880 --> 00:32:24,000
had these types of experiences. Do you feel that these visitors,

466
00:32:24,319 --> 00:32:31,720
these beings manipulate emotions and can manipulate terror in a

467
00:32:31,799 --> 00:32:34,960
person as a form of control.

468
00:32:36,720 --> 00:32:40,000
Speaker 3: Well, it's always possible. We don't know what they are

469
00:32:40,400 --> 00:32:45,359
or what their capabilities are, so I would say this.

470
00:32:46,160 --> 00:32:55,279
I have observed at my cabin instances where when a

471
00:32:55,680 --> 00:33:02,039
person who was engaged in an encounter felt there was

472
00:33:02,119 --> 00:33:09,799
a response that it suggested that the being or whatever

473
00:33:09,920 --> 00:33:15,720
it was that was there was reacting defensively. And here's

474
00:33:15,759 --> 00:33:20,720
what I mean. There was a filmmaker there. We were

475
00:33:20,720 --> 00:33:26,559
trying to get video of the visitors, and they had

476
00:33:26,599 --> 00:33:30,839
showed up that night and gone to the rooms of

477
00:33:32,279 --> 00:33:39,880
numerous a number of three different people. And then the

478
00:33:39,920 --> 00:33:42,720
filmmaker woke up at about four o'clock in the morning,

479
00:33:42,720 --> 00:33:49,640
and there standing beside his bed was a small figure

480
00:33:49,799 --> 00:33:54,599
with a very large head looking down at him, and

481
00:33:54,680 --> 00:33:58,319
he was he was a Hollywood filmmaker. He didn't believe

482
00:33:58,359 --> 00:34:01,559
any of this. He was doing this for money, and

483
00:34:01,720 --> 00:34:06,119
he was, of course appalled and horrified, and he said,

484
00:34:06,160 --> 00:34:09,599
an electric shock of terror went through me like nothing

485
00:34:09,639 --> 00:34:13,400
I have ever known before in my life. And immediately

486
00:34:14,400 --> 00:34:20,239
the figure's head became the head of a hawk of Horus,

487
00:34:21,719 --> 00:34:26,679
sort of like what happens when a blowfish becomes concerned

488
00:34:26,679 --> 00:34:29,559
about something in its environment. It suddenly blows up and

489
00:34:29,639 --> 00:34:35,800
becomes a big spiky thing to scare off whatever is there.

490
00:34:35,840 --> 00:34:39,320
And yet at the same time, the head of Horace

491
00:34:39,400 --> 00:34:45,239
has a profound mythological significance as well, so it was

492
00:34:45,320 --> 00:34:50,280
much more complex than simply a simply a fright response

493
00:34:50,320 --> 00:34:52,119
on the part of whatever was there. Then the thing

494
00:34:52,199 --> 00:34:57,880
disappeared before his eyes, and he woke his wife up,

495
00:34:57,920 --> 00:35:01,039
and they were too scared get out of the bed.

496
00:35:01,119 --> 00:35:04,639
But let's put it this way, they left that afternoon,

497
00:35:06,199 --> 00:35:09,880
never to return. I can imagine, which I can well understand,

498
00:35:10,519 --> 00:35:12,320
he said, to me at one point, how can you

499
00:35:12,400 --> 00:35:16,880
live here? And I said, we're doing this. My wife

500
00:35:16,960 --> 00:35:20,760
and I have decided that we will do this. That's

501
00:35:20,800 --> 00:35:21,559
why we're here.

502
00:35:25,000 --> 00:35:34,639
Speaker 1: The experiences you've had, beyond just the visitor interactions, it

503
00:35:34,840 --> 00:35:38,719
forced you or at least opened a door for you.

504
00:35:37,760 --> 00:35:44,039
You started with learning meditation and even had experiences with

505
00:35:44,159 --> 00:35:48,639
going out of your own body, and even the experiences

506
00:35:48,679 --> 00:35:52,559
of being with the visitors where you talked about meeting

507
00:35:52,599 --> 00:35:55,199
and interacting with people who had died.

508
00:35:55,840 --> 00:35:58,039
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, I'm glad of my body all the time.

509
00:35:58,599 --> 00:36:03,000
I am extensive involved with the other side. But I'm

510
00:36:03,000 --> 00:36:06,880
not talking about it much because I just don't want to.

511
00:36:07,639 --> 00:36:12,000
Speaker 1: Understood because let me just say this part then, because

512
00:36:12,079 --> 00:36:17,440
I've always felt that there was a connection between these visitors,

513
00:36:17,519 --> 00:36:21,039
these beings, there's more of a connection with the paranormal

514
00:36:21,239 --> 00:36:25,679
as the layman terms as most people think of, and

515
00:36:25,760 --> 00:36:31,280
the afterlife. Then we realize with these higher beings, which

516
00:36:31,400 --> 00:36:34,360
makes me lean towards that this is more of a

517
00:36:36,119 --> 00:36:39,360
and I'm not even sure the terminology is correct, an

518
00:36:39,360 --> 00:36:46,719
interdimensional experience or tered reality experience, where we are on

519
00:36:46,719 --> 00:36:49,119
one reality right now and there's so much of the

520
00:36:49,199 --> 00:36:53,119
universe that's happening on other realities, whether they occupy the

521
00:36:53,159 --> 00:36:57,719
same space as us, as is mentioned in string theory

522
00:36:57,840 --> 00:37:03,119
and talking about other dimensions, and so what we think

523
00:37:03,159 --> 00:37:05,800
of someone died and going to the spirit world, Well,

524
00:37:05,840 --> 00:37:09,960
maybe that spirit world isn't so much in our minds

525
00:37:09,960 --> 00:37:11,519
like the spirit world, that's the only way we could

526
00:37:11,519 --> 00:37:14,920
describe it, but being just another plane of existence that

527
00:37:15,119 --> 00:37:18,760
where maybe these visitors, or at least part of these visitors,

528
00:37:19,679 --> 00:37:25,719
that's their normal, everyday reality, and they're coming in and

529
00:37:25,760 --> 00:37:29,880
interacting with us, and it's much more entwined and interconnected

530
00:37:29,880 --> 00:37:31,280
than we want to admit.

531
00:37:32,760 --> 00:37:36,599
Speaker 3: Certainly, when you're in that reality, it feels very ordinary,

532
00:37:36,639 --> 00:37:42,960
and the denizens of that reality aren't particularly amazed by it,

533
00:37:44,960 --> 00:37:48,480
do they feel Do you feel that.

534
00:37:48,480 --> 00:37:51,719
Speaker 1: Any of the entities, these beings that you've interacted with,

535
00:37:52,800 --> 00:37:54,760
do you feel like they are coming from a different

536
00:37:54,800 --> 00:37:57,199
reality or do you feel maybe you're also dealing with

537
00:37:57,239 --> 00:38:01,039
something that's very physical that's part of I know you've

538
00:38:01,079 --> 00:38:04,480
had encounters that involved human beings as well.

539
00:38:04,920 --> 00:38:11,000
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, well, you know, this different reality thing is

540
00:38:11,320 --> 00:38:15,920
very difficult not to untangle because of the way our

541
00:38:16,000 --> 00:38:21,639
language works. The first thing you find out is that

542
00:38:21,679 --> 00:38:25,679
there are other ways of doing language that have absolutely

543
00:38:25,760 --> 00:38:30,079
nothing to do with words as we understand it. And

544
00:38:30,199 --> 00:38:33,960
let me explain what I mean. A perfect example is

545
00:38:34,039 --> 00:38:36,960
on the cover of our book, on the cover of Supernatural,

546
00:38:37,000 --> 00:38:41,079
the eye of an Owl. Why is it there? It's

547
00:38:41,119 --> 00:38:47,039
because the visitors are telling us about themselves through the

548
00:38:47,079 --> 00:38:51,480
imagery of the owl. When I had my first experience,

549
00:38:51,719 --> 00:38:53,559
the first thing I thought the next morning was an

550
00:38:53,559 --> 00:38:57,440
owl had gotten into the house. And one of the

551
00:38:57,480 --> 00:39:02,280
most terrifying moments of my life was that evening when

552
00:39:02,280 --> 00:39:06,119
I walked upstairs. By that time, I knew no owl

553
00:39:06,159 --> 00:39:07,960
had could have gotten into the house, So I had

554
00:39:08,000 --> 00:39:12,559
decided it must have looked in the window of the bedroom,

555
00:39:12,880 --> 00:39:16,199
and I had seen it, and that had been the

556
00:39:16,239 --> 00:39:20,079
cause of the strange memories that I had was coping

557
00:39:20,079 --> 00:39:26,800
with already that next afternoon, and I knew as I

558
00:39:26,880 --> 00:39:31,119
was walking up the stairs that I wouldn't see any

559
00:39:32,400 --> 00:39:36,599
footprints of any owl in the snow on the window sill.

560
00:39:36,679 --> 00:39:40,880
I already knew that, and I looked and there were

561
00:39:40,920 --> 00:39:45,440
no footprints and no claw prints, And then the sun

562
00:39:45,519 --> 00:39:50,320
went down. Now, if you look at the life of

563
00:39:50,360 --> 00:39:55,000
an owl, or at the if you study the owl

564
00:39:55,800 --> 00:40:00,599
and what it does and how it lives, and thethology

565
00:40:00,679 --> 00:40:05,719
of the owl. You are studying the visitors in a different,

566
00:40:06,159 --> 00:40:11,840
entirely different way than we would normally study them, using

567
00:40:12,159 --> 00:40:16,599
language and describing things back and forth in words. And

568
00:40:16,679 --> 00:40:23,760
what I'm saying here is that this, to try to

569
00:40:23,840 --> 00:40:29,280
talk about this is interdimensional. It feels like we're saying

570
00:40:29,320 --> 00:40:33,039
that there's some kind of a door between kind of

571
00:40:33,239 --> 00:40:36,199
this room and the other room, which is another dimension,

572
00:40:36,639 --> 00:40:39,000
and they're in that room and we're in this room.

573
00:40:39,639 --> 00:40:45,360
There are no rooms. There are gradients of experience and

574
00:40:45,559 --> 00:40:52,559
orientations of being, and we have a particular orientation of

575
00:40:52,639 --> 00:41:00,519
being that has a has a great weight cannnected with

576
00:41:00,559 --> 00:41:05,159
it that keeps us moving down this particular path. But

577
00:41:05,280 --> 00:41:08,239
when you get off of this path, you see that

578
00:41:08,480 --> 00:41:12,400
it's one garden and full of many paths. The garden

579
00:41:12,440 --> 00:41:14,599
one of the what physicists I forgot used to call

580
00:41:14,639 --> 00:41:17,719
it the garden of forked paths. That's what it is.

581
00:41:18,719 --> 00:41:24,679
And it's not a there is only one home for consciousness.

582
00:41:25,639 --> 00:41:30,840
It is reality in it's the whole spectrum of reality.

583
00:41:31,440 --> 00:41:35,039
You know, the best language I've ever found, and I

584
00:41:35,119 --> 00:41:41,760
wish we still used it to contend with this is Egyptian,

585
00:41:41,920 --> 00:41:47,119
ancient Egyptian hieroglyphics, and the reason is that they are

586
00:41:47,320 --> 00:41:55,519
so filled with both contextual meanings like English and logical

587
00:41:55,639 --> 00:42:03,159
structure like modern languages, but also with resonances from mythology

588
00:42:03,239 --> 00:42:08,559
and from the natural world that cause every single hieroglyphic

589
00:42:09,079 --> 00:42:19,559
to be a complex array of meanings, implications, and wonderful visual, oral,

590
00:42:20,079 --> 00:42:27,639
and textual puns. It's a bigger language than we use now,

591
00:42:27,679 --> 00:42:32,760
and we need a bigger language to deal with this

592
00:42:33,039 --> 00:42:37,880
our great problem. We do not have the language to

593
00:42:38,519 --> 00:42:42,599
address this, but we can find that language because they

594
00:42:42,679 --> 00:42:46,800
have it. And when you get involved with them, you

595
00:42:46,880 --> 00:42:51,039
really let them into your life. You're soon speaking another

596
00:42:51,159 --> 00:42:57,559
language completely, a better language, a much better language. You know.

597
00:42:57,599 --> 00:43:00,679
I was with them once for oh, it couldn't have

598
00:43:00,719 --> 00:43:05,519
been about twenty minutes of when I was totally involved,

599
00:43:05,639 --> 00:43:09,559
and I was in my apartment in San Antonio and

600
00:43:09,679 --> 00:43:12,159
walking out on the street with them. But I was

601
00:43:12,360 --> 00:43:15,800
in their field, as it were. I was sort of

602
00:43:15,840 --> 00:43:20,639
in their reality and that apartment. It was fascinating the

603
00:43:20,639 --> 00:43:23,920
way it changed when I was seeing it as if

604
00:43:24,079 --> 00:43:28,559
through their eyes, and it reminded me of what it's

605
00:43:28,840 --> 00:43:34,000
like to look at a little burrow in a zoo

606
00:43:34,079 --> 00:43:37,639
where you're going in, there's the dark room where they

607
00:43:37,679 --> 00:43:41,119
have the little burrowing night creatures, and there you look

608
00:43:41,159 --> 00:43:44,519
and you can see their burrows behind glass, and you

609
00:43:44,599 --> 00:43:46,599
look and you think, oh gosh, look at that messy

610
00:43:46,639 --> 00:43:49,119
little burrow. And of course it's full of all kinds

611
00:43:49,159 --> 00:43:51,960
of debris and filth and fleas and everything, but they

612
00:43:52,000 --> 00:43:57,199
love it. They're happy there. My apartment became a disjointed

613
00:43:57,440 --> 00:44:02,360
kind of crazy hoss. I could say every flaw and

614
00:44:02,559 --> 00:44:06,480
defect in it. It was incredible and I thought, my god,

615
00:44:06,599 --> 00:44:11,280
this looks like the layer of an animal. And that

616
00:44:11,440 --> 00:44:14,920
was how they saw it and how they saw me,

617
00:44:16,599 --> 00:44:21,360
and I became all big and thick and heavy. It

618
00:44:21,440 --> 00:44:26,559
was an extraordinary experience. But then came when it ended.

619
00:44:29,119 --> 00:44:33,079
That morning, at about seven o'clock, the radio turned itself on,

620
00:44:33,599 --> 00:44:37,400
because we used to wake up with the radio, and

621
00:44:38,519 --> 00:44:44,480
I heard this strange garbled yapping and I couldn't fare

622
00:44:44,519 --> 00:44:46,519
on what it was coming from. It sounded like a

623
00:44:46,639 --> 00:44:52,360
very brilliant dog talking, almost trying to talk, and I thought,

624
00:44:52,400 --> 00:44:56,000
my god, that's coming out of the radio. And then

625
00:44:56,039 --> 00:45:01,679
I realized that's English. I've lost my language by being

626
00:45:01,719 --> 00:45:07,559
with them for fifteen or twenty minutes, I've lost my language.

627
00:45:08,400 --> 00:45:14,719
Gradually it came back, but without a new way of

628
00:45:15,840 --> 00:45:20,519
addressing this linguistically, we're not really going to get anywhere.

629
00:45:20,559 --> 00:45:25,320
We're wearing in circles right now. But Supernatural does offer

630
00:45:25,400 --> 00:45:30,079
that possibility. It definitely does. If you look at the book,

631
00:45:30,840 --> 00:45:34,800
especially in Jeff's part, he says, make the cut. Jeff,

632
00:45:34,840 --> 00:45:36,800
can you tell us a little bit about that? Make

633
00:45:36,880 --> 00:45:38,920
the cut? It's so important.

634
00:45:41,239 --> 00:45:45,480
Speaker 2: Yeah. So this this comes actually from a sentence that

635
00:45:45,519 --> 00:45:51,159
Whitby uses in the chapter before that, where he essentially says, well,

636
00:45:51,320 --> 00:45:55,960
I don't know what was there. I'm describing what I experienced,

637
00:45:56,000 --> 00:46:00,519
what I saw. I'm not making a claim about what

638
00:46:00,760 --> 00:46:03,840
coust it or what was there. And in the study

639
00:46:03,840 --> 00:46:07,239
of religion, that's what we call we call it phenomenology,

640
00:46:07,320 --> 00:46:11,519
where you focus on the experience, on what is appearing

641
00:46:12,079 --> 00:46:16,119
to a particular subject or psyche, but you bracket the

642
00:46:16,239 --> 00:46:20,719
question of who's producing it or where it's coming from,

643
00:46:21,639 --> 00:46:25,440
and that then allows you to look at any experience,

644
00:46:25,599 --> 00:46:29,679
no matter how extreme or how extravagant, and take it

645
00:46:29,760 --> 00:46:33,960
on its own terms and try to understand it, and

646
00:46:34,000 --> 00:46:36,760
then later, you know, you can ask those questions about

647
00:46:36,840 --> 00:46:40,360
where it comes from or what constant. But to begin with,

648
00:46:40,519 --> 00:46:43,079
you have to make that cut, and you have to

649
00:46:43,119 --> 00:46:46,119
do another. You have to make a distinction between what

650
00:46:46,239 --> 00:46:50,880
a person is seeing or experiencing and what is actually there,

651
00:46:51,440 --> 00:46:57,400
which might be entirely, entirely different things. I mean, each

652
00:46:57,440 --> 00:47:00,360
of us, every moment of our waking lives is eventually

653
00:47:00,480 --> 00:47:06,480
watching a three D movie inside our brain. But that

654
00:47:06,599 --> 00:47:09,360
three D movie is being created as much by our

655
00:47:09,400 --> 00:47:13,599
brains and our bodies as it is whatever is out there,

656
00:47:14,599 --> 00:47:18,039
streaming in as it were. So this is just the base.

657
00:47:18,199 --> 00:47:22,599
This is just you know, one oh one in trying

658
00:47:22,639 --> 00:47:28,639
to understand someone else's experiences, whether they're religious or spiritual

659
00:47:28,760 --> 00:47:32,679
or paranormal, whatever they are. So that's what we mean

660
00:47:32,719 --> 00:47:34,199
by making the cut.

661
00:47:35,440 --> 00:47:39,119
Speaker 1: It seems like a lot of it is a matter

662
00:47:39,280 --> 00:47:45,800
of perception, and what we are able to perceive with

663
00:47:45,960 --> 00:47:52,519
our limited brains are limited intelligence compared to what the

664
00:47:52,559 --> 00:47:53,920
totality of reality.

665
00:47:54,079 --> 00:47:58,920
Speaker 2: I mean, yeah, I mean we assume mark that for

666
00:47:59,039 --> 00:48:04,159
some there's our reason that our senses are set up

667
00:48:04,199 --> 00:48:08,199
to perceive all of reality exactly as it is, and

668
00:48:08,239 --> 00:48:13,880
that's just nonsense. It's just not true. Our senses evolved

669
00:48:14,039 --> 00:48:19,159
over countless skions so that we could survive in this

670
00:48:19,280 --> 00:48:24,760
physical environment, and so they're locked in to only a tiny,

671
00:48:24,920 --> 00:48:30,480
tiny sliver of the electromagnetic spectrum. We only see a

672
00:48:30,599 --> 00:48:34,559
fraction of what's actually out there. And then this then

673
00:48:34,719 --> 00:48:38,400
enters our language. This is Whitney's point. So we say, oh,

674
00:48:38,440 --> 00:48:43,599
that made sense or this makes sense. Well, what we

675
00:48:43,719 --> 00:48:48,039
mean by that is I can coordinate that with what

676
00:48:48,159 --> 00:48:50,639
I see with my eyes and here with my ears

677
00:48:50,679 --> 00:48:54,920
and smell of my nose. It literally makes sense. The

678
00:48:55,039 --> 00:49:00,239
problem is is that, again, what makes sense is just

679
00:49:00,280 --> 00:49:03,800
a sliver of reality, and the rest of it doesn't

680
00:49:03,840 --> 00:49:08,239
coordinate with our senses at all. I mean, anybody who's

681
00:49:08,280 --> 00:49:13,000
spent five minutes trying to read, say a Layman's book

682
00:49:13,159 --> 00:49:17,239
on quantum physics knows that it makes absolutely no sense.

683
00:49:18,239 --> 00:49:23,199
But they're claiming to be mapping reality as it is.

684
00:49:23,960 --> 00:49:26,480
So I think that's the problem. It's the problem of language,

685
00:49:26,480 --> 00:49:29,400
it's a problem of our senses. It's a problem of

686
00:49:29,400 --> 00:49:33,519
our cognitive capacities, none of which are set up to

687
00:49:35,239 --> 00:49:36,960
really deal with these things.

688
00:49:37,639 --> 00:49:41,679
Speaker 3: Well, you know, we are having trouble dealing with the

689
00:49:41,719 --> 00:49:52,719
most basic of the super natural questions. Here's one quantum indeterminacy.

690
00:49:55,039 --> 00:50:00,840
We know and can prove that a a particle will

691
00:50:00,880 --> 00:50:07,679
remain in superposition until it's observed. When it becomes positional,

692
00:50:07,760 --> 00:50:15,679
it focuses into a particle. What does that mean about us?

693
00:50:16,480 --> 00:50:19,079
What does that mean about the universe in which we live?

694
00:50:19,199 --> 00:50:24,119
And as Jeff has been saying, we don't actually know.

695
00:50:26,239 --> 00:50:33,280
But that moment when the observer changes the world by

696
00:50:33,440 --> 00:50:38,800
merely doing the observing is a moment of the super

697
00:50:39,199 --> 00:50:45,000
natural because we don't know what is happening to cause

698
00:50:45,039 --> 00:50:50,519
that to occur. But something in the outside world changes

699
00:50:50,760 --> 00:50:56,079
and in effect becomes real because it's being observed, and

700
00:50:56,119 --> 00:50:59,760
it's an experiment that's been done dozens thousands of times.

701
00:51:00,360 --> 00:51:05,239
It is reality. But we don't want to address it philosophically,

702
00:51:05,960 --> 00:51:11,320
and certainly most of the sciences outside of physics don't

703
00:51:11,360 --> 00:51:14,360
want to address it because they are the media god.

704
00:51:14,760 --> 00:51:18,239
The intellectual community hates that they will never address it

705
00:51:18,519 --> 00:51:22,719
because they want everything to be linear and comprehensible. The

706
00:51:22,760 --> 00:51:27,519
intellectual community is still living in the eighteenth century. They

707
00:51:27,719 --> 00:51:33,280
look at the world as a Newtonian construct, and even

708
00:51:33,320 --> 00:51:37,960
these linear histories that we write are themselves a kind

709
00:51:37,960 --> 00:51:42,880
of illusion. We live in an enforced illusion, in fact,

710
00:51:43,920 --> 00:51:49,159
very different from the reality. Because here's a question about reality.

711
00:51:49,719 --> 00:51:54,000
Why is it that it appears that it stays this

712
00:51:54,119 --> 00:51:58,159
way all the time even when we're not observing it.

713
00:51:58,960 --> 00:52:02,960
Who is observing it? Or is it that we can

714
00:52:03,119 --> 00:52:09,480
never escape from the obligation of the observer, the position

715
00:52:09,559 --> 00:52:16,400
of the observer. We can never see outside of observation itself. Therefore,

716
00:52:16,840 --> 00:52:20,519
we can never see reality as it actually is. Who

717
00:52:20,559 --> 00:52:23,599
knows what's actually happening? Don't Actually, we don't have the

718
00:52:23,639 --> 00:52:27,320
faintest idea. We can only we can only respond to

719
00:52:27,320 --> 00:52:30,119
what we see. And as Jeff says, our senses are

720
00:52:30,159 --> 00:52:36,159
extremely limited. We have very limited senses. We have machines

721
00:52:36,920 --> 00:52:41,920
that can take us, take our understanding or our vision

722
00:52:42,159 --> 00:52:46,079
into areas that our bodies and brains are not capable

723
00:52:46,119 --> 00:52:50,880
of seeing. But here's something else. One of the things

724
00:52:50,880 --> 00:52:55,679
that could happen at our cabin was that there could

725
00:52:55,719 --> 00:53:01,679
be these very complex experiences and interaction that were both

726
00:53:01,679 --> 00:53:07,360
physical and quasi physical. And the cabin itself was located

727
00:53:08,039 --> 00:53:11,920
on an iron tailing. Massive amount of iron was under

728
00:53:11,920 --> 00:53:18,360
that that the iron formation geologic formation was under the

729
00:53:18,480 --> 00:53:23,719
area where that cabin was, and about twenty miles to

730
00:53:23,760 --> 00:53:27,039
the south there was a place called Magnetic Mine Road

731
00:53:28,159 --> 00:53:32,159
where the land the iron in that part of the

732
00:53:32,199 --> 00:53:37,000
tailing was actually magnetized and the long magnetic people used

733
00:53:37,000 --> 00:53:40,960
to go out to Magnetic Mine Road to watch orbs

734
00:53:41,000 --> 00:53:44,239
of light that seemed to have an intelligence that would

735
00:53:44,239 --> 00:53:46,679
come up and look at be face to face with you,

736
00:53:46,719 --> 00:53:50,400
and then move off. What was going on? We have

737
00:53:50,480 --> 00:53:56,840
no idea. And then in the same area quite a

738
00:53:56,920 --> 00:54:00,280
number of homeless people, I am told I'm never able

739
00:54:00,320 --> 00:54:05,000
to follow this up, so it's not confirmable died in

740
00:54:05,440 --> 00:54:11,840
very bizarre ways that were similar to cattle mutilations. So

741
00:54:12,360 --> 00:54:15,840
what in the world was going on that was happening

742
00:54:15,880 --> 00:54:18,960
to them while I was having what came to be

743
00:54:19,599 --> 00:54:26,400
extraordinary and sublime and deeply illuminating experiences with the visitors.

744
00:54:28,039 --> 00:54:29,920
What a mystery?

745
00:54:30,039 --> 00:54:30,280
Speaker 2: You know?

746
00:54:31,280 --> 00:54:36,360
Speaker 3: This is all about one thing, perfecting the question. That's

747
00:54:36,360 --> 00:54:41,719
what Supernatural our book is about. But first we have

748
00:54:41,840 --> 00:54:46,519
to accept it, and that's hard for us. We don't

749
00:54:46,559 --> 00:54:49,320
want the question to be there. We'd much rather giggle

750
00:54:49,360 --> 00:54:50,880
about rectal probes.

751
00:54:52,119 --> 00:54:55,719
Speaker 1: Or have everything spoon fed to us and This goes

752
00:54:55,760 --> 00:54:58,840
to a concept that you know, we've discussed many times

753
00:54:58,840 --> 00:55:02,199
in the show of almost a dumbing down of society

754
00:55:02,280 --> 00:55:06,360
instead of becoming more enlightened and trying to expand our

755
00:55:06,400 --> 00:55:11,000
consciousness to understand these things. It almost feels like the

756
00:55:11,039 --> 00:55:14,719
New Dark Ages, where you know, the powers that be

757
00:55:15,800 --> 00:55:20,519
are purposely trying to dumbest down to don't look behind

758
00:55:20,559 --> 00:55:22,199
that at that man behind them to.

759
00:55:22,199 --> 00:55:27,639
Speaker 3: Pay Donald Trump. I love the uneducated. That's that's what

760
00:55:27,679 --> 00:55:31,119
it's about, isn't it. They love the uneducated. That's why

761
00:55:31,159 --> 00:55:35,280
we're we're watching our public school systems disintegrate all around

762
00:55:35,280 --> 00:55:39,559
the country because the powers that be, as you put it,

763
00:55:39,639 --> 00:55:44,559
do not want an educated public. That's exactly what they

764
00:55:44,599 --> 00:55:45,440
don't want.

765
00:55:45,599 --> 00:55:48,239
Speaker 1: Because if they did, there would be another revolution because

766
00:55:48,320 --> 00:55:51,079
people would finally stand up and not put up with

767
00:55:51,159 --> 00:55:55,480
what our society has become. You know, keep people uneducated,

768
00:55:55,599 --> 00:55:58,760
keep the masses, you know, going and consuming and make

769
00:55:58,880 --> 00:56:00,639
they make their money and have keep.

770
00:56:00,480 --> 00:56:03,679
Speaker 3: Them dumb, and keep them scared. Then you got them.

771
00:56:05,000 --> 00:56:07,159
Speaker 1: That's That's why you know a lot. I don't even

772
00:56:07,159 --> 00:56:10,079
try to watch the mainstream news anymore because if you

773
00:56:10,199 --> 00:56:15,039
really break down the content and being a past filmmaker,

774
00:56:15,119 --> 00:56:17,559
and I've taken and going to college and filmmaking classes

775
00:56:17,639 --> 00:56:19,920
and media classes. You know, one thing that I learned

776
00:56:19,960 --> 00:56:22,320
real quick is when you try to break down a

777
00:56:22,440 --> 00:56:26,679
nightly newscast and you find out in an hour newscast

778
00:56:26,800 --> 00:56:30,320
you might have maybe seven minutes of news of real

779
00:56:30,400 --> 00:56:33,840
news if you're lucky, and the rest between advertising and

780
00:56:34,119 --> 00:56:40,239
fluff pieces, uh, you know, personal interest stories. There's nothing there,

781
00:56:41,159 --> 00:56:46,400
and it's it's it's it's disheartening to what has been happening.

782
00:56:48,000 --> 00:56:49,519
What I think we're gonna do is we're gonna go

783
00:56:49,519 --> 00:56:52,800
ahead and take our break, and then when we come back,

784
00:56:52,880 --> 00:56:57,800
we'll be talking more with Whitley Streeber and Jeffrey Kreipel

785
00:56:58,119 --> 00:57:02,599
and about their book The Snatural, And we'll be right

786
00:57:02,679 --> 00:57:04,079
back after these messages.

787
00:57:04,159 --> 00:57:11,079
Speaker 8: So don't go away, Demons. Dwell the Tower is a

788
00:57:11,119 --> 00:57:15,199
thrilling novel of supernatural terror by Irene Allen Block and

789
00:57:15,360 --> 00:57:19,079
Mark Johnson. A hidden evil torment a young couple in

790
00:57:19,159 --> 00:57:23,280
a small Italian village along the Mediterranean coast and threatens

791
00:57:23,280 --> 00:57:27,039
to destroy their once peaceful lives as the dark forces

792
00:57:27,079 --> 00:57:30,280
closing around them. Help arrives in the form of two

793
00:57:30,360 --> 00:57:35,920
paranormal investigators. Using their psychic abilities and research experience, the

794
00:57:36,000 --> 00:57:39,679
pair quickly finds himself embroiled in a one hundred year

795
00:57:39,719 --> 00:57:44,840
old mystery involving satanic cults and terrifying entities. As they

796
00:57:44,880 --> 00:57:48,599
confront with evil forces around them, the investigators have drawn

797
00:57:48,719 --> 00:57:52,360
further into the dark and mysterious world hidden beneath the

798
00:57:52,400 --> 00:57:56,760
seeming tranquility of an ancient Italian village. Demon's Dwelt. The

799
00:57:56,840 --> 00:58:01,760
Tower is now available on Glenetti dot com, Amazon dot com,

800
00:58:01,920 --> 00:58:06,400
and Bonds Anddoble dot com.

801
00:58:06,599 --> 00:58:06,920
Speaker 3: Hi.

802
00:58:06,960 --> 00:58:09,880
Speaker 9: This is Jeff Brady, host of in Other News, heard

803
00:58:09,960 --> 00:58:14,880
on Dark Matter Radio on Thursdays. In this strange period

804
00:58:14,960 --> 00:58:18,920
where free energy technology is weaponized, descent is criminalized, and

805
00:58:19,039 --> 00:58:23,039
war economies flourish, the human family is being deliberately assaulted

806
00:58:23,079 --> 00:58:27,079
on multiple fronts, in the food, air, water, and during sleep.

807
00:58:27,760 --> 00:58:31,400
Yet here we are with information at our fingertips, only

808
00:58:31,440 --> 00:58:34,559
to become a slave to the portable digital communication device.

809
00:58:35,159 --> 00:58:38,239
You know what you're really communicating. You're screaming to cell

810
00:58:38,280 --> 00:58:42,880
phone corporations, Please put a chip in me. Past shows

811
00:58:42,960 --> 00:58:48,599
have looked at issues involving electromagnetic weapons, satellite stocking, RFID

812
00:58:48,880 --> 00:58:55,239
or gone, and organize illegal fluoridated drinking water for infants, airport, radiation, scanner,

813
00:58:55,320 --> 00:58:59,920
secret societies, energy, vampire's psychopathy, at surveillance, sex, trafficking, disign

814
00:59:00,000 --> 00:59:04,320
after Capitalism. So tune in to in Other News Thursdays

815
00:59:04,400 --> 00:59:07,960
on the dark Matter Radio Network, the pioneers of overnight

816
00:59:08,039 --> 00:59:08,719
talk radio.

817
00:59:09,599 --> 00:59:12,039
Speaker 4: Did you ever turn to your radio for your favorite

818
00:59:12,079 --> 00:59:14,320
talk show to find that it's been preempted?

819
00:59:14,360 --> 00:59:22,280
Speaker 3: For this, for this, and I'm ashamed of you? Never

820
00:59:22,280 --> 00:59:23,400
read for forty four.

821
00:59:23,719 --> 00:59:26,159
Speaker 4: Do you have a favorite talk radio program that's not

822
00:59:26,239 --> 00:59:29,599
available in your city. Just go to talkstreamlive dot com

823
00:59:29,639 --> 00:59:32,679
for links to the best streaming talk radio shows. At

824
00:59:32,679 --> 00:59:36,000
talkstream live, you will find live talk shows twenty four

825
00:59:36,039 --> 00:59:38,599
hours a day, seven days a week. All your favorites

826
00:59:38,599 --> 00:59:41,199
are here. With such a large selection, you will also

827
00:59:41,239 --> 00:59:43,880
discover some new favorites. On the go and still want

828
00:59:43,960 --> 00:59:47,880
to listen with the Wobell smartphone, simply type talkstream live

829
00:59:48,039 --> 00:59:51,199
on your internet browser. Now you can take internet radio

830
00:59:51,320 --> 00:59:54,679
with you. You will also find news and sports streams.

831
00:59:54,880 --> 00:59:57,840
Best of all, the talk stream live directory is free

832
00:59:57,960 --> 01:00:02,599
and there's never a login request. Remember talkstreamlive dot com

833
01:00:02,719 --> 01:00:06,400
the fastest route between you and your favorite talk radio show.

834
01:00:08,519 --> 01:00:12,000
Speaker 1: Glanettie Publishing is pleased to announce the release of Stephen

835
01:00:12,119 --> 01:00:16,280
Jansen's latest novel, Ghost Tactical, The Labyrinth of Datalists. The

836
01:00:16,360 --> 01:00:19,159
Labyrinth of Datalists tells the story of Trent Ruck, a

837
01:00:19,199 --> 01:00:22,400
member of an elite Ghost Tactical team who acquires some

838
01:00:22,480 --> 01:00:25,960
of the most top secret military aircraft ever developed. Trent

839
01:00:26,119 --> 01:00:28,639
is assigned to steal a high tech aircraft fitted with

840
01:00:28,719 --> 01:00:31,239
this state of the art A Drive, a top secret

841
01:00:31,239 --> 01:00:35,000
technology that allows the pilot to transcend the very fabric

842
01:00:35,039 --> 01:00:37,679
of space and time. Trent finds himself in a race

843
01:00:37,760 --> 01:00:39,639
to keep the A Drive out of the hands of

844
01:00:39,719 --> 01:00:42,880
other organizations who plan to use the technology for their

845
01:00:42,920 --> 01:00:46,559
own sinister agendas, which threatens the very fabric of our existence.

846
01:00:46,840 --> 01:00:49,760
The first book in the Ghost Tactical series, The Labyrinth

847
01:00:49,840 --> 01:00:52,559
of Datalists, is an exciting novel that will thrill lovers

848
01:00:52,599 --> 01:00:56,119
of science fiction and high tech adventures. Ghost Tactical, The

849
01:00:56,199 --> 01:01:00,000
Labyrinth of Datalists is now available on Glannatai dot com,

850
01:01:00,079 --> 01:01:32,840
Amazon dot com, and Barnesandoble dot com. And welcome back

851
01:01:32,880 --> 01:01:36,840
everyone to Unknown Origins Radio. I'm Mark Johnson along with

852
01:01:36,880 --> 01:01:40,559
Bruce Pearson and Irene Allen Block and we are talking

853
01:01:40,599 --> 01:01:45,280
tonight with our guests Whitley Strieber and Jeffrey Kreipel about

854
01:01:45,320 --> 01:01:49,079
their new book The Supernatural. Irene, do you have any

855
01:01:49,079 --> 01:01:50,039
thoughts on this so far?

856
01:01:50,480 --> 01:01:53,440
Speaker 6: No, I'm just fascinated to be listening to the story

857
01:01:53,519 --> 01:01:57,599
of everything that's going on with Whitley. You know, for me,

858
01:01:57,880 --> 01:02:02,400
this is all new over here here, so much of it.

859
01:02:02,519 --> 01:02:05,280
So I'm definitely going to be behind the book.

860
01:02:05,360 --> 01:02:10,760
Speaker 1: I think the well waiting. I know Bruce wanted to

861
01:02:10,800 --> 01:02:14,800
ask a question when he gets back on, but let

862
01:02:14,840 --> 01:02:19,119
me let me ask you a question, Whitley. Something else

863
01:02:19,159 --> 01:02:22,480
that you brought up in the in the new book

864
01:02:22,519 --> 01:02:25,960
with the Supernatural and then on that, like to get

865
01:02:26,000 --> 01:02:30,320
Jeff's take on it afterwards. Whitley, you had mentioned in

866
01:02:30,360 --> 01:02:33,920
your book about some of your out of body experiences

867
01:02:33,920 --> 01:02:36,880
that you had, and there was one time where you

868
01:02:37,480 --> 01:02:39,719
had an out of body experience and then you looked

869
01:02:39,719 --> 01:02:43,199
at yourself and you seem to take on a visage

870
01:02:43,280 --> 01:02:44,760
of one of the visitors.

871
01:02:45,159 --> 01:02:47,840
Speaker 3: Yo, that happened. It wasn't more than taking on the

872
01:02:47,920 --> 01:02:54,239
visit to one of the visitors. I was that afternoon.

873
01:02:54,360 --> 01:02:56,800
I was sitting and lying on a couch and was

874
01:02:56,840 --> 01:03:00,599
sitting there reading and I realized I to a certain

875
01:03:00,599 --> 01:03:03,360
type of vibration that you feel when you're going to

876
01:03:04,519 --> 01:03:09,639
have an outer body experience. But then I suddenly realized,

877
01:03:10,280 --> 01:03:13,239
and I don't know quite why this was, that it

878
01:03:13,280 --> 01:03:15,880
wasn't going to be an outer body experience, that I

879
01:03:16,000 --> 01:03:19,800
was going to change forms. And I thought to myself, well,

880
01:03:19,840 --> 01:03:22,480
she's going to see an alien now for sure. Finally,

881
01:03:23,079 --> 01:03:28,320
then the cat jumped up on me, and the spark

882
01:03:28,400 --> 01:03:30,840
shot off of my chest onto the cat, and the

883
01:03:30,920 --> 01:03:35,559
cat yelled and jumped away, but it also threw the

884
01:03:35,559 --> 01:03:40,599
whole thing off balance, so nothing happened that night. Went

885
01:03:40,639 --> 01:03:46,199
to bed, and it happened in the night, and the

886
01:03:46,239 --> 01:03:50,920
transformation then took place, and so I got out of

887
01:03:50,960 --> 01:03:54,960
the bed, and in this other state, it's possible you

888
01:03:55,000 --> 01:03:57,519
can do a lot of things like you can't. You

889
01:03:57,559 --> 01:04:03,079
can you're not quite connected to gravity in the same way.

890
01:04:04,199 --> 01:04:07,519
So I went flying upstairs, and not flying, but sort

891
01:04:07,559 --> 01:04:10,719
of moving very easily. Let me put it that way,

892
01:04:11,519 --> 01:04:15,039
into my son's room where he and a friend were asleep,

893
01:04:15,960 --> 01:04:21,760
and he was having a sleepover, and I thought perhaps

894
01:04:22,840 --> 01:04:27,000
I would I wanted to somehow engage with him, because

895
01:04:27,000 --> 01:04:31,000
he was very negative about this, and I didn't want

896
01:04:31,039 --> 01:04:34,159
it in his life and didn't want to be talked

897
01:04:34,159 --> 01:04:38,599
about or anything. But then when I was in there,

898
01:04:39,000 --> 01:04:43,119
he was asleep and the other boy was awake, and

899
01:04:44,239 --> 01:04:47,039
he looked up at me, the other boy, and smiled.

900
01:04:47,119 --> 01:04:50,159
He's a big smile on his face, and I thought, oh, good,

901
01:04:50,719 --> 01:04:54,960
they're accepting this. This is and I. But then I

902
01:04:55,000 --> 01:04:57,159
won't go into what happened next, but suffice to say

903
01:04:57,159 --> 01:05:06,400
I had to leave the room. Experience then changed, the

904
01:05:06,519 --> 01:05:12,480
energy changed, and I became this for him again. The

905
01:05:12,519 --> 01:05:17,000
next morning breakfast, the boys were very sullen and silent,

906
01:05:18,639 --> 01:05:22,360
and they went away to school. Then when Andrew came home,

907
01:05:22,400 --> 01:05:25,960
he said, Dad, one of those things came into my

908
01:05:26,119 --> 01:05:32,079
room last night and disturbed X. The boy scared him.

909
01:05:33,920 --> 01:05:39,320
I don't want you to let them come anywhere near

910
01:05:39,760 --> 01:05:46,280
me or anyone I know, because it ruins my friendships.

911
01:05:47,079 --> 01:05:53,920
And I realized that my son apparently didn't really know

912
01:05:54,000 --> 01:05:59,639
me all that well after all. But he subsequently realized

913
01:05:59,639 --> 01:06:03,239
that is just really strange. And it's okay, you know,

914
01:06:03,320 --> 01:06:05,760
he's not strange, he's fine.

915
01:06:06,400 --> 01:06:09,719
Speaker 1: The see, there's something that really struck me when I

916
01:06:09,800 --> 01:06:13,760
read that in the book, and it's when you look

917
01:06:13,800 --> 01:06:17,320
at Native American lore, especially in the Southwest, and they

918
01:06:17,320 --> 01:06:22,920
have the talk of skinwalkers or being able in pagan

919
01:06:22,960 --> 01:06:28,719
mythology of shape shifting, shape shifting into different forms, which

920
01:06:28,760 --> 01:06:32,199
sounds you know, modern science, and most people pooh pooh,

921
01:06:32,280 --> 01:06:36,840
that is fantasy. Mythology can't exist. But yet there just

922
01:06:36,880 --> 01:06:39,840
seems to be an evidence out there that there are

923
01:06:40,039 --> 01:06:43,519
aspects of reality that do make it a reality that

924
01:06:43,840 --> 01:06:48,039
can happen. Whether it's a manipulation of energies, whether I

925
01:06:48,119 --> 01:06:51,480
don't know, it's beyond my comprehension, but the fact remains

926
01:06:51,559 --> 01:06:55,800
it seems to happen. Do you feel it could have

927
01:06:55,840 --> 01:06:57,000
been a similar situation.

928
01:06:59,599 --> 01:07:03,920
Speaker 3: Well, I can't do it. It has to be done

929
01:07:03,960 --> 01:07:09,760
to me. In other words, I can't change form at will.

930
01:07:11,519 --> 01:07:16,079
I've tried, and unless somebody comes and does it, it's

931
01:07:16,159 --> 01:07:18,760
just not going to happen far as I can tell,

932
01:07:20,480 --> 01:07:23,480
though I'm still working on it. If I can change

933
01:07:23,519 --> 01:07:26,159
for I'm gonna damn well go down the street in

934
01:07:26,159 --> 01:07:28,679
the other forum the next time I do it. See

935
01:07:28,719 --> 01:07:37,480
what people think, But there are people with extraordinary abilities

936
01:07:37,519 --> 01:07:45,559
and powers I've seen a lot of that, and in

937
01:07:45,679 --> 01:07:49,960
all of the communities that are still connected in a

938
01:07:50,239 --> 01:07:57,599
real way to this planet, those powers are ordinary. In

939
01:07:57,679 --> 01:08:06,960
the communities that aren't, they seem impossible, They seem completely impossible,

940
01:08:10,119 --> 01:08:14,280
but they're very, very much part of us. You have

941
01:08:14,360 --> 01:08:20,760
to be a child of the planet, not or a

942
01:08:20,800 --> 01:08:25,000
bride or husband of the planet, not a divorce in

943
01:08:25,119 --> 01:08:34,439
order to enjoy your real self. And these people can. Yes,

944
01:08:34,600 --> 01:08:37,520
they can shift into different forms. Of course they can.

945
01:08:37,800 --> 01:08:42,199
I can. I'd love to shift into a really cool

946
01:08:42,319 --> 01:08:48,680
form like an eagle, but so far, no cigar, it's

947
01:08:48,760 --> 01:08:52,079
just that one form, and I haven't been able to

948
01:08:52,119 --> 01:08:58,880
do it on call. Wish I could. Bruce, are you there, Ah,

949
01:08:59,239 --> 01:09:03,239
speaking of inner dimensional travel? Yeah, we have to accept

950
01:09:03,239 --> 01:09:06,479
the fact that he's there and not He can.

951
01:09:06,279 --> 01:09:08,960
Speaker 1: He can hear us, He can hear himself, but for

952
01:09:09,000 --> 01:09:12,600
whatever reason, his audio is not coming through. So why

953
01:09:12,640 --> 01:09:13,039
don't we.

954
01:09:13,000 --> 01:09:16,760
Speaker 3: Talk about him? Pardon, why don't we talk about him?

955
01:09:16,840 --> 01:09:18,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, let's talk about Bruce now. Now he can't he

956
01:09:18,920 --> 01:09:22,600
can't defend himself. Irene, you want to throw in some of.

957
01:09:22,920 --> 01:09:26,000
Speaker 3: That bar that's cool, the.

958
01:09:27,920 --> 01:09:31,159
Speaker 1: Well, well waiting, We'll try to uh, Bruce let me

959
01:09:31,279 --> 01:09:32,520
let me kick you out and I'll try to bring

960
01:09:32,560 --> 01:09:37,359
you back in. Let's see if this fixes the See

961
01:09:37,399 --> 01:09:39,920
there's another concept that it kind of ties in with

962
01:09:39,960 --> 01:09:41,439
all this, and I brought it up a couple of

963
01:09:41,479 --> 01:09:43,439
times tonight, and I don't know how much you're willing

964
01:09:43,479 --> 01:09:49,600
to talk about it or not. The doctor John Mack

965
01:09:49,680 --> 01:09:54,479
when he was doing his research and and doing hypnotherapy

966
01:09:54,560 --> 01:09:59,880
and regressions on his patients, and Dolores Cannon also you

967
01:10:00,199 --> 01:10:03,119
this technique and in a lot of the cases, and

968
01:10:03,479 --> 01:10:06,680
I leaned towards doctor Max Moore because they talk about

969
01:10:06,760 --> 01:10:11,800
doctor Mack and in several of his cases that he investigated,

970
01:10:13,039 --> 01:10:19,000
they had mentioned going back further beyond this life and

971
01:10:19,239 --> 01:10:23,920
mentioning that they were these these beings, they were among

972
01:10:23,960 --> 01:10:26,319
these beings, they were part of these beings that had

973
01:10:26,359 --> 01:10:26,720
mentioned it.

974
01:10:26,880 --> 01:10:28,840
Speaker 3: It's not that they were part of these beings. It's

975
01:10:28,880 --> 01:10:31,960
that these beings are part of us. Then that's it's

976
01:10:31,960 --> 01:10:35,359
just us. Then that's us, And it doesn't. The whole

977
01:10:35,399 --> 01:10:39,800
alien human thing is completely it's an illusion. It's not

978
01:10:39,880 --> 01:10:42,720
even real. There are no aliens. I mean, we're all

979
01:10:42,960 --> 01:10:47,560
we're all together, one consciousness.

980
01:10:47,840 --> 01:10:51,439
Speaker 6: This is exactly what I wanted to try and explain

981
01:10:51,560 --> 01:10:54,119
earlier when I wrote you that message, Mark, but I

982
01:10:54,119 --> 01:10:56,640
couldn't find the words for it. Thank you very much,

983
01:10:56,760 --> 01:10:57,439
you said it.

984
01:10:58,520 --> 01:11:01,680
Speaker 1: So we're all one in together. Now Now let me

985
01:11:01,680 --> 01:11:04,119
see if I can my little puny human brain here

986
01:11:04,159 --> 01:11:07,039
try to wrap around this. If we're all one and

987
01:11:07,239 --> 01:11:14,920
together between us, these visitors, these these intelligences, we mean

988
01:11:15,000 --> 01:11:17,279
we're all one. We're all I guess that means we're

989
01:11:17,319 --> 01:11:20,159
all coming from the same place. We're all part of

990
01:11:20,199 --> 01:11:24,920
the same thing. How does that really we relate to,

991
01:11:25,199 --> 01:11:28,319
let's say, other forms of life here on this planet,

992
01:11:28,359 --> 01:11:33,880
with animals, insects, bacteria. Is that all part of the

993
01:11:33,960 --> 01:11:38,600
same thing, just in different forms? And maybe maybe Whitley,

994
01:11:38,600 --> 01:11:40,079
I don't know if you would answer that, or maybe

995
01:11:40,119 --> 01:11:41,079
that would be something.

996
01:11:42,239 --> 01:11:48,479
Speaker 2: That's not fair, but I you know, I want to

997
01:11:48,520 --> 01:11:51,560
go back to Whitley's comment. I mean when you Mark,

998
01:11:51,600 --> 01:11:55,239
when you initially invoke the story of Whitley watching himself

999
01:11:55,279 --> 01:11:58,680
trying and do an alien, and I mean, obviously the

1000
01:12:00,000 --> 01:12:06,119
first reading of that should be that the alien is us,

1001
01:12:05,840 --> 01:12:12,000
that the whole abduction experience is some part of us

1002
01:12:12,119 --> 01:12:15,479
that we've depressed and lost touch with. In the modern

1003
01:12:15,520 --> 01:12:19,560
world that wants our attention and has to go to

1004
01:12:19,680 --> 01:12:25,520
extreme measures to get our attention. And you know, the

1005
01:12:26,000 --> 01:12:31,720
human being is vast. The ego is just a tip

1006
01:12:31,760 --> 01:12:34,760
of the iceberg above the water, but there's this immense

1007
01:12:36,039 --> 01:12:40,840
psyche or soul or spirit underneath the water, as it were.

1008
01:12:42,079 --> 01:12:44,720
And wently, you know, he singled this on the very

1009
01:12:44,880 --> 01:12:49,960
first page of Communion. Nobody noticed that he gave away

1010
01:12:50,079 --> 01:12:52,840
his deepest insight on page one, and he did it

1011
01:12:52,920 --> 01:12:58,039
again on page one of our books. The phrases the

1012
01:12:58,199 --> 01:13:02,479
enigmatic presence of the human mind links back from the dark.

1013
01:13:03,760 --> 01:13:06,640
I mean, that's precisely what he was suggesting there, and

1014
01:13:07,279 --> 01:13:09,760
that's really kind of what we pursue in the book. Again.

1015
01:13:10,039 --> 01:13:15,159
We really go after that idea that the mythical figure

1016
01:13:15,239 --> 01:13:19,600
of the alien is in fact some other part of

1017
01:13:19,920 --> 01:13:24,279
the human that we've lost touch with or that we're

1018
01:13:24,319 --> 01:13:31,359
still groping toward. So I just think that's true. I

1019
01:13:31,399 --> 01:13:34,680
think all the one thing we know about every abduction

1020
01:13:34,880 --> 01:13:38,600
experience that anybody who's ever reported is that it was

1021
01:13:38,640 --> 01:13:42,920
a human experience. It was a human being allowed that experience.

1022
01:13:43,600 --> 01:13:47,439
Whether it has some objective cause, again, we don't know,

1023
01:13:47,520 --> 01:13:49,600
but we know at the end of the day, there

1024
01:13:49,640 --> 01:13:54,079
was a human being having that experience. So that's significant

1025
01:13:54,319 --> 01:13:57,439
and it suggests that it's has something to do with

1026
01:13:57,800 --> 01:14:00,359
our humanity us.

1027
01:14:01,439 --> 01:14:08,079
Speaker 1: What do you think of the idea, Whitley, of the

1028
01:14:08,199 --> 01:14:11,880
idea that some people have claimed that these beings not

1029
01:14:12,000 --> 01:14:15,720
only are us, but are possibly us from the future.

1030
01:14:16,920 --> 01:14:22,239
Speaker 3: Well, that's a very interesting question. My wife Anne was

1031
01:14:22,439 --> 01:14:26,000
very interested in that possibility always. She always felt like

1032
01:14:26,760 --> 01:14:31,760
this might be something from our own future. And interestingly enough,

1033
01:14:31,800 --> 01:14:35,840
there are two principles of physics that pertain here that

1034
01:14:36,000 --> 01:14:39,520
might that suggests that could be true. The first one,

1035
01:14:39,560 --> 01:14:43,039
of course, is the grandfather paradox, and we know it

1036
01:14:43,159 --> 01:14:47,840
works because we are able. We have moved photons backwards

1037
01:14:47,840 --> 01:14:53,520
in time in such a way that they should encounter themselves,

1038
01:14:53,600 --> 01:14:58,279
and they never do. They never do. In other words,

1039
01:14:58,600 --> 01:15:02,680
the grandfather paradox is true. You can't go back in

1040
01:15:02,760 --> 01:15:08,439
time and kill your own grandfather. Something else will happen. However,

1041
01:15:08,479 --> 01:15:12,600
we also know that movement through time is theoretically possible.

1042
01:15:13,279 --> 01:15:17,560
It's a daunting task physically, but it is theoretically possible.

1043
01:15:19,359 --> 01:15:25,079
There's another principle, the principle of least action, that tells

1044
01:15:25,199 --> 01:15:29,359
us This is the principle that says that nothing ever

1045
01:15:29,479 --> 01:15:35,239
does anything in nature that it doesn't need to do.

1046
01:15:35,319 --> 01:15:38,720
In other words, and nature never expends any more energy

1047
01:15:38,760 --> 01:15:42,840
on anything than it must. In other words, water going

1048
01:15:43,439 --> 01:15:47,600
trickling down a stream never stops to regard the view.

1049
01:15:47,680 --> 01:15:51,279
It just goes down, always the lowest possible point. That's

1050
01:15:51,319 --> 01:15:57,199
the principle of least action. That same principle means that

1051
01:15:57,680 --> 01:16:03,279
it is possible to travel backwards time because the principle

1052
01:16:03,279 --> 01:16:09,119
of least action ensures that the grandfather paradox cannot be broken,

1053
01:16:10,439 --> 01:16:13,680
so there's no bar to doing it. In physics, the

1054
01:16:13,680 --> 01:16:19,600
only bar to doing it is essentially technological. Now it

1055
01:16:20,079 --> 01:16:24,319
seems quite possible that either we or somebody else may

1056
01:16:24,319 --> 01:16:28,279
have solved that technological problem. And that may be an

1057
01:16:28,279 --> 01:16:33,239
explanation for why there is among the close encounter community

1058
01:16:33,279 --> 01:16:39,720
an almost universal message of environmental peril. And it might

1059
01:16:39,800 --> 01:16:42,520
be that these people are coming back in time to

1060
01:16:42,600 --> 01:16:47,640
try to repair their present by changing our present. And

1061
01:16:47,960 --> 01:16:51,880
you know, they might be succeeding because just in the

1062
01:16:51,960 --> 01:16:58,079
past year, for the first time, despite economic growth around

1063
01:16:58,119 --> 01:17:03,199
the world, modesty cannot growth. Carbon emissions remained flat for

1064
01:17:03,239 --> 01:17:06,680
the first time in forty years because of efforts being

1065
01:17:06,760 --> 01:17:15,560
made to control carbon dioxide emissions now, so maybe they

1066
01:17:15,560 --> 01:17:20,079
are having an effect, but I don't know. The interesting

1067
01:17:20,159 --> 01:17:26,239
thing is, though, that if someone were to come back

1068
01:17:26,279 --> 01:17:33,159
in time, they might give themselves more latitude to be

1069
01:17:33,239 --> 01:17:41,520
able to violate the temporal restrictions. If they appeared to

1070
01:17:41,640 --> 01:17:47,279
us to be something that wasn't real aliens, for example,

1071
01:17:48,399 --> 01:17:53,159
then they might be able to do more and communicate

1072
01:17:53,239 --> 01:18:00,640
with us more fully. So it's a fascinating possibility. I

1073
01:18:00,680 --> 01:18:04,479
don't think it's out of bounds at all.

1074
01:18:04,880 --> 01:18:08,720
Speaker 1: It's to my understanding at least, this is the way

1075
01:18:08,760 --> 01:18:11,239
I'm leaning with a lot of the people that I've

1076
01:18:11,279 --> 01:18:14,680
talked to and gaining more of an understanding and knowledge

1077
01:18:15,479 --> 01:18:19,520
in regards to time that our concept of time being

1078
01:18:19,600 --> 01:18:24,680
linear is of course just an illusion. Time is not linear.

1079
01:18:24,880 --> 01:18:28,840
Time all time is happening at once, but time also

1080
01:18:28,920 --> 01:18:34,479
seems to be fluid. They're a perfect example. Is You've

1081
01:18:34,520 --> 01:18:38,479
mentioned this before in your books and even on an

1082
01:18:38,520 --> 01:18:44,159
unknown country your website, about having whether it was I

1083
01:18:44,199 --> 01:18:47,000
forget the exact term, whether visions or whatnot, where you

1084
01:18:47,199 --> 01:18:54,000
seeing yourself in multiple almost multiple realities or multiple different

1085
01:18:54,079 --> 01:18:58,600
versions of you, different time, that's not what happened in

1086
01:18:58,640 --> 01:19:01,720
your present, but could happened or maybe is playing out

1087
01:19:02,239 --> 01:19:04,800
in another time frame or another reality.

1088
01:19:05,319 --> 01:19:08,319
Speaker 3: Well, that happened in December of two thousand and nine,

1089
01:19:08,359 --> 01:19:13,560
as I recall, and it was associated in my mind

1090
01:19:13,640 --> 01:19:22,159
with a really high intensity experience, an encounter, and there

1091
01:19:22,279 --> 01:19:26,159
was I was my consciousness moved into an array of

1092
01:19:26,159 --> 01:19:33,479
different lives all at the same time. And it was

1093
01:19:33,520 --> 01:19:38,640
a remarkable experience. And it came, ironically enough, the day

1094
01:19:38,760 --> 01:19:42,279
of the publication of my book twenty twelve, which was

1095
01:19:43,800 --> 01:19:49,760
a sort of kind of comic novel about a writer

1096
01:19:51,119 --> 01:19:54,800
who it turns out that the book he's writing is

1097
01:19:54,880 --> 01:20:00,399
creating reality in another in a parallel universe. He gets

1098
01:20:00,439 --> 01:20:02,439
into a lot of trouble with the people in that

1099
01:20:02,600 --> 01:20:07,560
universe because some of them wanted to write one thing

1100
01:20:07,680 --> 01:20:12,520
and others want him to write another, and he he

1101
01:20:12,800 --> 01:20:17,640
is caught between two stools, as it were. In any case,

1102
01:20:17,680 --> 01:20:21,600
it was an absolutely fascinating experience. And you know, it's

1103
01:20:21,640 --> 01:20:24,319
quite possible that we are moving down many If the

1104
01:20:24,359 --> 01:20:28,520
Copenhagen interpretation is true, then my seeing six or seven

1105
01:20:28,560 --> 01:20:31,640
different lives was paltry compared to what's really going on.

1106
01:20:32,920 --> 01:20:36,520
There could be thousands. Oh god, I.

1107
01:20:36,479 --> 01:20:39,119
Speaker 1: Don't you know, there's already two of me. I have

1108
01:20:39,159 --> 01:20:42,399
an identical twin brother on the West coast, So there's

1109
01:20:42,439 --> 01:20:44,399
already two of me. To thought that there's like maybe

1110
01:20:44,399 --> 01:20:47,279
thousands or millions or billions of me floating around out there,

1111
01:20:47,840 --> 01:20:52,159
that's rather frightening. But let me ask you this, in

1112
01:20:52,239 --> 01:20:57,199
terms of time are traveling through time. Time seems not

1113
01:20:57,199 --> 01:21:01,399
only fluid, but it seems like we occasionally seem to

1114
01:21:01,520 --> 01:21:06,399
experience time edits. And I know you've had Starfire Tour

1115
01:21:06,720 --> 01:21:11,920
on your Dreamline show many times and talking about certain

1116
01:21:12,079 --> 01:21:15,640
edits within the timeline. And a perfect example would be

1117
01:21:15,720 --> 01:21:19,720
when somebody remembers they have a vivid memory of a

1118
01:21:19,760 --> 01:21:23,920
celebrity dying. A perfect example would be, I know a

1119
01:21:23,960 --> 01:21:28,399
lot of people remember when Kirk Douglas supposedly died many

1120
01:21:28,479 --> 01:21:31,520
years ago. Well, Kirk Douglas is very much alive, and

1121
01:21:31,600 --> 01:21:33,880
yet there are people there who have that memory of

1122
01:21:33,960 --> 01:21:38,479
Kirk Douglas dying, of Michael Douglas and his wife Catherine

1123
01:21:38,520 --> 01:21:41,680
Zeeda Jones at the funeral, and this all happened many

1124
01:21:41,760 --> 01:21:43,720
years ago, and then all of a sudden, boomy pops

1125
01:21:43,800 --> 01:21:47,199
up he's still alive and he's still here with us,

1126
01:21:47,520 --> 01:21:51,560
and yet people still have those memories, and it seems

1127
01:21:51,600 --> 01:21:55,319
like time itself has altered some So in terms of

1128
01:21:55,359 --> 01:22:02,159
the grandfather paradox, could that not exactly maybe not be

1129
01:22:02,279 --> 01:22:05,640
true only in terms of because time is fluid, we're

1130
01:22:05,680 --> 01:22:09,279
only remembering one aspect of a timeline. There could be

1131
01:22:09,399 --> 01:22:12,199
multiple timelines, or there could be edits in a timeline,

1132
01:22:12,239 --> 01:22:15,439
and our memories of those that timeline is affected along

1133
01:22:15,479 --> 01:22:20,439
the way based on our limited physical perception using these

1134
01:22:20,479 --> 01:22:21,800
meat suits in our brains.

1135
01:22:24,199 --> 01:22:26,560
Speaker 3: Lane and I were at a place in La called

1136
01:22:26,600 --> 01:22:30,560
the Magic Castle Park, appropriately enough, where magicians go and

1137
01:22:30,720 --> 01:22:33,479
I've been there. Yeah, it's a lovely place they go

1138
01:22:33,520 --> 01:22:36,479
and do their magic acts and there's millions of little

1139
01:22:36,560 --> 01:22:41,119
rooms here and there, and we actually, she and Starfire

1140
01:22:41,359 --> 01:22:48,520
experienced a time slip together where somebody who wasn't in

1141
01:22:48,560 --> 01:22:50,880
a bathroom with them, in a lady's room with them.

1142
01:22:50,920 --> 01:22:53,800
A woman walked out of the lady's room in front

1143
01:22:53,800 --> 01:22:57,520
of them, even though the ladies room only. Starfire and

1144
01:22:57,600 --> 01:23:01,000
Ann had been in the ladies room. I was waiting

1145
01:23:01,119 --> 01:23:04,560
right outside the door because the place was so complicated.

1146
01:23:05,159 --> 01:23:07,359
And then they had a tendency to get lost in

1147
01:23:07,399 --> 01:23:11,399
places like that. I was just a few feet away.

1148
01:23:12,319 --> 01:23:15,439
I had seen the two of them go in, and

1149
01:23:15,520 --> 01:23:20,319
I saw the woman come out kind of oddly right

1150
01:23:20,399 --> 01:23:25,239
in front of them and then walk away. And Anne

1151
01:23:25,640 --> 01:23:28,880
came out and said, who was that? And I said,

1152
01:23:28,960 --> 01:23:31,800
I don't know why, she said, because there wasn't anyone

1153
01:23:31,800 --> 01:23:33,880
in the bathroom but us, and yet she walked out

1154
01:23:33,920 --> 01:23:37,079
in front of us. Did you see her? I said, yeah,

1155
01:23:37,079 --> 01:23:40,720
I saw her. We found her. She was the photographer

1156
01:23:40,760 --> 01:23:44,000
who was working, you know, during the photographs of people

1157
01:23:44,039 --> 01:23:49,239
and stuff in there, and she hadn't noticed anything unusual.

1158
01:23:49,960 --> 01:23:53,079
But the problem is there, it's a very small bathroom.

1159
01:23:53,119 --> 01:23:55,119
There were two stalls in a sink, and there was

1160
01:23:55,199 --> 01:23:58,720
no place for a third person to be, and yet

1161
01:23:59,359 --> 01:24:02,399
she was there. She sort of popped up out of nowhere,

1162
01:24:03,479 --> 01:24:07,840
and she didn't perceive anything unusual, but Anne and Starfire

1163
01:24:07,920 --> 01:24:11,800
certainly did, because you know, she suddenly left the bathroom

1164
01:24:11,880 --> 01:24:14,600
in front of them when they she couldn't have been

1165
01:24:14,640 --> 01:24:17,800
in it. It was really a cool experience. I have

1166
01:24:17,880 --> 01:24:18,359
to tell you.

1167
01:24:18,760 --> 01:24:21,279
Speaker 1: There are a couple and again you have to take

1168
01:24:21,279 --> 01:24:23,119
this with a grain of salt, only because of what

1169
01:24:23,279 --> 01:24:25,760
can be done with video editing these days. But there

1170
01:24:25,800 --> 01:24:29,239
are a couple of very intriguing videos that can be

1171
01:24:29,359 --> 01:24:34,119
found on YouTube that seemed to show something extremely similar

1172
01:24:34,159 --> 01:24:36,720
to that happening. There was one, I believe it was

1173
01:24:37,279 --> 01:24:39,920
in Ireland. It shows these band members on the street

1174
01:24:40,000 --> 01:24:43,239
and they're putting their equipment away and the way one

1175
01:24:43,319 --> 01:24:46,439
band member he's sitting there and from behind his back,

1176
01:24:46,840 --> 01:24:49,760
all of a sudden, this man with a bicycle comes

1177
01:24:50,199 --> 01:24:52,479
as if he went right behind him, but yet you

1178
01:24:52,479 --> 01:24:54,359
could see the full man he wasn't in on the

1179
01:24:54,399 --> 01:24:57,039
other side. It's like he literally came out of nowhere

1180
01:24:57,479 --> 01:24:59,800
and went right behind the man pedaling down the street.

1181
01:25:01,039 --> 01:25:03,680
There's a couple of other examples of that that can

1182
01:25:03,720 --> 01:25:06,000
be seen out there. That's the one that comes most

1183
01:25:06,039 --> 01:25:06,399
to mind.

1184
01:25:06,479 --> 01:25:09,760
Speaker 3: Now. The truck in the tunnel in France is also

1185
01:25:09,880 --> 01:25:12,119
a weird one. Do you see that one?

1186
01:25:12,319 --> 01:25:14,600
Speaker 1: I don't think I've seen that one. I have seen

1187
01:25:14,640 --> 01:25:17,840
one where somebody's turning and literally a car comes out

1188
01:25:17,880 --> 01:25:20,439
of nowhere because nobody was coming down the street and boom,

1189
01:25:20,479 --> 01:25:22,439
there's that car. It seemed to come out of nowhere.

1190
01:25:25,199 --> 01:25:31,039
Very very strange with time travel, do you and this

1191
01:25:31,119 --> 01:25:32,720
is going to go with not only with time taverl,

1192
01:25:32,800 --> 01:25:35,319
but also the human interactions that you've felt with. Do

1193
01:25:35,359 --> 01:25:41,039
you feel like our government possibly maybe has this technology

1194
01:25:41,479 --> 01:25:47,199
and they're doing stuff along, whether in in tandem with

1195
01:25:47,479 --> 01:25:50,760
or in relationship with the visitors, or do you think

1196
01:25:50,800 --> 01:25:53,720
that we might have some type of technology that mankind

1197
01:25:54,319 --> 01:25:56,279
is playing with that the public is not privy to.

1198
01:25:58,319 --> 01:26:03,079
Speaker 3: I don't know. Maybe I know of a few secret technologies.

1199
01:26:04,159 --> 01:26:07,079
They don't interest me very much. Frankly, the old government

1200
01:26:07,119 --> 01:26:11,479
thing caused me almost to roll my head, my eyes

1201
01:26:11,520 --> 01:26:14,319
back in my head with boredom, because I think that

1202
01:26:14,359 --> 01:26:19,079
the close encounter witnesses collectively no, far far more than

1203
01:26:19,720 --> 01:26:23,560
the government does. I don't think the government's position in

1204
01:26:23,600 --> 01:26:24,439
this is important.

1205
01:26:24,840 --> 01:26:31,079
Speaker 1: Okay, that's fair enough. There. There's one other thing. It's

1206
01:26:31,279 --> 01:26:33,840
that I wanted to ask about in regards to your book,

1207
01:26:33,960 --> 01:26:40,119
The Key. Fascinating book. I really highly recommend for people

1208
01:26:40,239 --> 01:26:44,279
to read this because it is certainly a much different

1209
01:26:44,600 --> 01:26:48,520
encounter that you had with the Key than in most

1210
01:26:48,560 --> 01:26:51,720
of your other books where you've had encounters with the visitors.

1211
01:26:51,760 --> 01:26:55,880
You've had encounter with a person and this gentleman, as

1212
01:26:55,920 --> 01:26:58,520
you call him, the Master of the key when he

1213
01:26:58,560 --> 01:27:02,319
appeared in your hotel in Toronto and then had this

1214
01:27:02,479 --> 01:27:08,960
very strange conversation with him. Do you think that he

1215
01:27:09,279 --> 01:27:11,720
was because I know he had a lot of cryptic

1216
01:27:11,800 --> 01:27:14,960
responses to some of your questions, especially in regards to

1217
01:27:15,000 --> 01:27:18,520
who he possibly could have been, including the discussion of

1218
01:27:18,560 --> 01:27:23,680
intelligent machines. For whatever reason, it popped into my head

1219
01:27:23,680 --> 01:27:28,800
the other day that it almost seems like it could

1220
01:27:28,880 --> 01:27:31,039
be related to what a lot of people referred to

1221
01:27:31,079 --> 01:27:36,479
as the men in Black phenomenon. Could he have been?

1222
01:27:37,920 --> 01:27:40,840
Do you feel he was a real person, maybe with

1223
01:27:40,960 --> 01:27:43,680
a special knowledge, or do you feel that there was

1224
01:27:43,720 --> 01:27:46,760
something very much different about him?

1225
01:27:47,039 --> 01:27:50,279
Speaker 3: Well, it's hard to answer that question. He certainly was

1226
01:27:50,359 --> 01:27:54,680
affable enough. He wasn't like the sort of sinister image

1227
01:27:54,680 --> 01:28:01,000
of the men in black. He seemed real to me

1228
01:28:01,159 --> 01:28:05,880
that night, But the next morning I called Anne from

1229
01:28:05,880 --> 01:28:08,239
the hotel room and told her never to let me

1230
01:28:08,359 --> 01:28:13,600
decide if hadn't happened. So on some level he was unusual.

1231
01:28:14,000 --> 01:28:19,560
There was something about him that had struck me as

1232
01:28:19,680 --> 01:28:22,600
being unusual enough to where I would decide eventually that

1233
01:28:22,720 --> 01:28:25,520
this was all a dream and it had never happened.

1234
01:28:25,520 --> 01:28:30,079
Otherwise I wouldn't have called her so. And you know,

1235
01:28:30,159 --> 01:28:35,000
looking back on it now, I just can't answer the

1236
01:28:35,119 --> 01:28:38,960
question in all honesty as to whether or not he

1237
01:28:39,039 --> 01:28:44,199
was physically there. I do know that that night I

1238
01:28:44,279 --> 01:28:47,359
obviously perceived him as such, and the next morning was

1239
01:28:47,399 --> 01:28:52,119
concerned enough about it to call Anne and make her

1240
01:28:52,760 --> 01:28:58,199
get her to remind me that whenever I decided he

1241
01:28:58,840 --> 01:29:01,000
hadn't been real, that I had called her and told

1242
01:29:01,000 --> 01:29:05,520
her he was. So. You know, it's like all of

1243
01:29:05,520 --> 01:29:10,920
these things, the level in which they are real. If

1244
01:29:10,960 --> 01:29:15,880
you concretize it, you've lost it. You made a mistake,

1245
01:29:17,119 --> 01:29:25,159
and it's a matter of preserving the indeterminacy by not

1246
01:29:25,359 --> 01:29:29,239
looking at it in such a way that it coalesces

1247
01:29:29,319 --> 01:29:35,720
into a false belief or a belief. I don't think

1248
01:29:35,760 --> 01:29:38,119
there's any point in that. I don't believe in the

1249
01:29:38,159 --> 01:29:44,880
Master of the Key being either real, a fabrication, or

1250
01:29:45,479 --> 01:29:50,359
something from something connected with the universe in a way

1251
01:29:50,359 --> 01:29:53,840
that we don't understand. I just leave it in question.

1252
01:29:54,960 --> 01:29:58,000
When I say fabrication, I mean imagination. I would never

1253
01:29:58,119 --> 01:30:00,600
lie about any of this stuff, never.

1254
01:30:02,800 --> 01:30:05,159
Speaker 1: But a lot of it. There is a sense of

1255
01:30:06,000 --> 01:30:10,920
unreality when you have some of these experiences that maybe

1256
01:30:10,920 --> 01:30:15,680
they don't feel like and I've heard this from other experiencers,

1257
01:30:15,720 --> 01:30:20,079
that it may not exactly be happening on a conscious

1258
01:30:20,199 --> 01:30:21,840
level as we understand it.

1259
01:30:22,279 --> 01:30:22,439
Speaker 2: Now.

1260
01:30:22,479 --> 01:30:25,479
Speaker 1: That's not saying that it's happening in the mind. But

1261
01:30:25,720 --> 01:30:28,119
again it's here we get to the to the word

1262
01:30:28,199 --> 01:30:31,920
reality and what we think of What is reality? Is

1263
01:30:32,239 --> 01:30:36,079
we think of our consciousness, our conscious waking thoughts of

1264
01:30:36,159 --> 01:30:39,560
going to work and driving a car and eating dinner

1265
01:30:39,680 --> 01:30:43,439
or whatnot. That's our conscious reality, or is in fact

1266
01:30:44,119 --> 01:30:49,319
this the dream and what's happening on our subconscious or

1267
01:30:49,399 --> 01:30:52,800
on the dream state, maybe that's reality.

1268
01:30:53,800 --> 01:31:01,760
Speaker 3: When my son was seven, he had an encounter that

1269
01:31:01,880 --> 01:31:05,800
I record at the beginning of my second book, Transformation.

1270
01:31:08,439 --> 01:31:12,520
After that, he came in to breakfast in the morning

1271
01:31:12,560 --> 01:31:14,520
with a little piece of paper in his hand and

1272
01:31:15,159 --> 01:31:18,800
handed it to us. It was something he had written.

1273
01:31:19,840 --> 01:31:26,960
It was the phrase reality is God's dream. And I

1274
01:31:27,079 --> 01:31:32,760
said to him, who is God? And he smiled with

1275
01:31:32,800 --> 01:31:36,199
his big seven year old grin and said, we are

1276
01:31:38,880 --> 01:31:43,680
therein lies a problem, and the problem has a great

1277
01:31:43,720 --> 01:31:46,800
deal to do with what the question you just asked,

1278
01:31:46,840 --> 01:31:53,800
and why I can't answer it? Clearly? He was subsequently

1279
01:31:53,840 --> 01:31:56,920
has forgotten or says he has forgotten all of this

1280
01:31:57,000 --> 01:32:00,479
stuff and he's living in a normal life without any

1281
01:32:00,560 --> 01:32:04,199
of this. It's not in his life at all. And

1282
01:32:04,279 --> 01:32:09,199
I think that's just as well, because it interrupts your

1283
01:32:09,199 --> 01:32:13,239
life profoundly. And I've often thought to myself, would my

1284
01:32:13,319 --> 01:32:16,880
life have been if it hadn't been this. I wouldn't

1285
01:32:16,920 --> 01:32:21,600
trade it for anything, but it's very hard. It's really

1286
01:32:21,680 --> 01:32:26,880
hard on many different levels. The social level with the

1287
01:32:26,920 --> 01:32:32,760
bores and the idiots, and the personal level with the snickering,

1288
01:32:33,039 --> 01:32:41,640
sneering friends and friends I call them. And there's various sinister,

1289
01:32:42,000 --> 01:32:44,960
sort of shadowy groups I'm forced to interact with at

1290
01:32:45,000 --> 01:32:51,199
times that I don't enjoy at all. And then there

1291
01:32:51,239 --> 01:32:55,239
are the visitors and the wonders that they bring me.

1292
01:32:55,640 --> 01:32:59,920
I'm very used to them now in certain senses and

1293
01:33:01,119 --> 01:33:04,840
can interact in a way that is very productive for me.

1294
01:33:05,079 --> 01:33:09,000
So on balance, I'm glad I have this life. I

1295
01:33:09,039 --> 01:33:12,760
wouldn't trade it for anything, and I'm very grateful to

1296
01:33:12,800 --> 01:33:16,800
them for continuing to take an interest in me. As

1297
01:33:16,840 --> 01:33:20,680
improbable as that seems to me, it is true.

1298
01:33:21,560 --> 01:33:26,840
Speaker 1: The relationship that you had with the visitors changed over

1299
01:33:26,880 --> 01:33:30,880
a period of time from the direct contacts that you

1300
01:33:31,079 --> 01:33:34,920
had in the beginning, from when you started to remember

1301
01:33:35,159 --> 01:33:38,079
from December of nineteen eighty five. For a few years there,

1302
01:33:38,119 --> 01:33:41,119
and then it seemed to change form. I don't want

1303
01:33:41,159 --> 01:33:43,680
to say it stopped or went away, but.

1304
01:33:44,279 --> 01:33:46,359
Speaker 3: It did changed form for a while. But now it's

1305
01:33:46,439 --> 01:33:50,000
back to the same thing kind of contacts it was

1306
01:33:50,000 --> 01:33:50,680
at the beginning.

1307
01:33:51,279 --> 01:33:54,000
Speaker 1: Really okay, so they are fully back in your life

1308
01:33:54,039 --> 01:33:54,760
like they were.

1309
01:33:54,600 --> 01:33:58,439
Speaker 3: Back then, well, with the difference that it's they're not.

1310
01:33:59,119 --> 01:34:03,520
They no longer were strict themselves to the kind of

1311
01:34:03,600 --> 01:34:09,359
formula of linear experience. It's much richer and more complex

1312
01:34:09,439 --> 01:34:14,439
experience now than it was then because I understand it better.

1313
01:34:14,920 --> 01:34:17,479
It probably was then too, but I just understand it,

1314
01:34:17,920 --> 01:34:21,199
so I filtered out the parts I didn't understand. I

1315
01:34:21,239 --> 01:34:23,600
don't need to filter that out. I don't think anymore

1316
01:34:23,680 --> 01:34:25,880
that I could be filtering things out. I don't know.

1317
01:34:27,359 --> 01:34:33,560
But this is a very much richer experience, and it's

1318
01:34:33,680 --> 01:34:36,319
caused the things like the barrier between the living and

1319
01:34:36,359 --> 01:34:41,359
the dead to sort of fall away, and the ability

1320
01:34:41,399 --> 01:34:43,840
to move through space and time in a whole new

1321
01:34:43,840 --> 01:34:44,720
way is there?

1322
01:34:46,079 --> 01:34:49,760
Speaker 1: And what about the fear that you felt on those

1323
01:34:50,600 --> 01:34:56,039
first initial contacts where you were fearing, feeling such incredible

1324
01:34:56,560 --> 01:35:01,239
fear and terror as that transform. Do you still feel

1325
01:35:01,279 --> 01:35:04,840
trepidation at all when you start having these encounters, or.

1326
01:35:04,760 --> 01:35:08,279
Speaker 3: Have you become I'll tell you when I do. I

1327
01:35:08,319 --> 01:35:11,680
don't feel fear. When I'm completely invested in the physical,

1328
01:35:12,479 --> 01:35:15,880
even if they show up, I don't feel fear, and

1329
01:35:15,920 --> 01:35:21,319
I know I can exchange with them in a way

1330
01:35:21,079 --> 01:35:28,600
that is reliable. But when I go into my inner

1331
01:35:28,720 --> 01:35:33,520
self and therefore also out of my body, I feel

1332
01:35:33,520 --> 01:35:43,119
a vulnerability. And that is something I'm working on because

1333
01:35:43,560 --> 01:35:49,119
it's an illusion, it's not a real vulnerability at all.

1334
01:35:49,199 --> 01:35:51,880
And I think I was probably more vulnerable in the

1335
01:35:51,880 --> 01:35:54,079
physical when I was going out in the woods at night.

1336
01:35:54,920 --> 01:35:58,720
I mean, given what was happening in the neighborhood, they

1337
01:35:58,800 --> 01:36:04,720
might have been just aching to chess, sucking me dry.

1338
01:36:04,960 --> 01:36:09,000
And they didn't do it because they wanted They wanted

1339
01:36:09,039 --> 01:36:12,439
an ally who would later be a form of bait.

1340
01:36:15,199 --> 01:36:19,479
Speaker 1: That you had mentioned in the book in Supernatural And

1341
01:36:19,520 --> 01:36:23,159
then after this, Jeffrey, I haven't forgotten you. I want

1342
01:36:23,199 --> 01:36:24,760
I want to bring something up here with you. But

1343
01:36:24,840 --> 01:36:26,359
let me ask this one last question here.

1344
01:36:26,560 --> 01:36:30,119
Speaker 3: Who's Jeffrey. Yeah, who you mean, Jeff Jeff Jeff, of

1345
01:36:30,119 --> 01:36:34,880
course Jeff. Yeah, he's not a Jeffrey. You'd have to

1346
01:36:34,960 --> 01:36:35,760
meet him to know this.

1347
01:36:35,960 --> 01:36:43,439
Speaker 1: Okay? With you, you mentioned in the book that these

1348
01:36:43,479 --> 01:36:46,800
walks through the woods and you were feeling pulled to

1349
01:36:46,800 --> 01:36:49,880
go out there, and you were testing yourself and trying

1350
01:36:49,920 --> 01:36:52,760
to experience, and it almost seems like it was an

1351
01:36:52,880 --> 01:36:56,720
encouragement for you to take those steps and move forward.

1352
01:36:56,800 --> 01:36:59,840
But there was the one time you mentioned going out

1353
01:36:59,880 --> 01:37:02,479
there and you felt like there was something just beyond

1354
01:37:02,520 --> 01:37:04,399
the edge of the trees, that there was something else

1355
01:37:04,439 --> 01:37:12,239
out there following you that had almost not an evil intent,

1356
01:37:12,359 --> 01:37:15,119
but possibly a dangerous intent to you.

1357
01:37:15,560 --> 01:37:17,760
Speaker 3: And so many times I felt that way. I think

1358
01:37:17,800 --> 01:37:20,960
what you're talking about is the sense of I had something,

1359
01:37:21,000 --> 01:37:23,159
a feeling once out there that there was something that

1360
01:37:23,279 --> 01:37:27,840
it was just incredibly evil and it scared the hell

1361
01:37:27,880 --> 01:37:28,239
out of me.

1362
01:37:28,720 --> 01:37:29,680
Speaker 1: And you turned back.

1363
01:37:30,640 --> 01:37:32,760
Speaker 3: Oh, I turned back many times that I did turn

1364
01:37:32,840 --> 01:37:34,039
back then, Yes.

1365
01:37:34,600 --> 01:37:36,479
Speaker 1: But you felt like in the book, and maybe I

1366
01:37:36,560 --> 01:37:38,439
misread it wrong, but in the book you felt like

1367
01:37:38,479 --> 01:37:41,479
that they were testing you for something.

1368
01:37:41,840 --> 01:37:47,439
Speaker 3: But you was always they were always always I'm sorry,

1369
01:37:47,560 --> 01:37:51,640
they don't like this. We better change the subject. Can

1370
01:37:51,640 --> 01:37:52,079
you hear me?

1371
01:37:52,479 --> 01:37:54,279
Speaker 1: Yeah, I hear you, yeah, BRUI.

1372
01:37:54,199 --> 01:37:57,640
Speaker 3: Okay, listen the things I used thing I used to

1373
01:37:57,640 --> 01:38:03,239
do that was cool, and that was it really cemented

1374
01:38:03,279 --> 01:38:07,359
the relationship. Was I would go out and there you'd

1375
01:38:07,399 --> 01:38:10,000
go up a long rise and then there was a cliff.

1376
01:38:11,039 --> 01:38:14,479
The bottom of this cliff when it was running, there

1377
01:38:14,520 --> 01:38:18,119
was a thing called a kill, a little stream, and

1378
01:38:18,560 --> 01:38:24,520
in the cliff there was a cave and some very old,

1379
01:38:25,239 --> 01:38:29,039
very old artifacts had been found in that cave years before.

1380
01:38:29,840 --> 01:38:33,279
And it wasn't a deep cave. It was just a

1381
01:38:33,319 --> 01:38:37,760
little culed a sack in the rock, about ten or

1382
01:38:37,800 --> 01:38:42,199
twelve feet deep. But if I went in that I

1383
01:38:42,319 --> 01:38:45,479
was about a mile and a half out away from

1384
01:38:45,560 --> 01:38:51,199
any human habitation in any direction. I was completely helpless

1385
01:38:51,199 --> 01:38:56,439
in there, completely vulnerable, and when I turned off my

1386
01:38:56,600 --> 01:39:02,880
light there was no light at all. You couldn't see anything.

1387
01:39:04,560 --> 01:39:11,920
That was the place where my relationship with them changed

1388
01:39:13,119 --> 01:39:17,359
and they began to treat me with some respect.

1389
01:39:18,800 --> 01:39:25,399
Speaker 1: H Jeffrey. Let me ask you based on what Whitley

1390
01:39:25,439 --> 01:39:28,359
mentioned with his son, and I feel this is a

1391
01:39:28,439 --> 01:39:32,880
perfect question for you considering your background. That the son

1392
01:39:33,000 --> 01:39:37,239
mentioned that we were God is us or we are God?

1393
01:39:37,680 --> 01:39:39,680
How do you interpret that from your position?

1394
01:39:41,720 --> 01:39:47,880
Speaker 2: Well, that standard, that standardistical philosophy and a lot of religions.

1395
01:39:48,960 --> 01:39:51,960
It's not surprising at all to me that he'd say that.

1396
01:39:52,800 --> 01:39:56,279
I mean, one of the things that I kept thinking

1397
01:39:56,319 --> 01:40:00,119
about listening to your conversation with literally about talk and

1398
01:40:01,199 --> 01:40:04,479
about time travel and about real these experiences of being

1399
01:40:04,520 --> 01:40:08,520
many people at once, is that again, these are just

1400
01:40:08,880 --> 01:40:16,399
really classical notions of reincarnation. I mean, what you're really

1401
01:40:16,439 --> 01:40:22,000
talking about is the soul. And all kinds of reincarnation

1402
01:40:22,399 --> 01:40:29,239
traditions in Asia, say in Toda or China, reincarnation is

1403
01:40:29,279 --> 01:40:33,760
a way of talking about being many people at once, essentially,

1404
01:40:35,279 --> 01:40:37,880
And I think one of the reasons again that we

1405
01:40:37,880 --> 01:40:40,920
were so puzzled by so many of these experiences is

1406
01:40:40,960 --> 01:40:45,720
that fundamentally they're about the soul, and we no longer

1407
01:40:45,760 --> 01:40:49,399
believe in a soul. We've lost the language, we've lost

1408
01:40:49,479 --> 01:40:53,960
the sensibility, and so we you know, invoke physics or something.

1409
01:40:54,119 --> 01:40:57,039
But in fact, what we're talking about is the soul.

1410
01:40:57,239 --> 01:41:01,439
And in a lot of these religious traditions, particularly in Asia, again,

1411
01:41:02,199 --> 01:41:05,399
the soul is identical with the God hand. There is

1412
01:41:05,479 --> 01:41:10,520
no distinction between the human spirit and the divine none

1413
01:41:10,560 --> 01:41:15,279
at all. So the human being, if he or she's

1414
01:41:15,319 --> 01:41:20,760
identified completely with the immortal soul, can indeed say I

1415
01:41:20,800 --> 01:41:25,479
am God, because they truly are in that system. So

1416
01:41:27,119 --> 01:41:30,159
some way, what We's son was sort of intuiting a

1417
01:41:30,239 --> 01:41:35,159
kind of natural mystical identity between the soul and the

1418
01:41:35,159 --> 01:41:38,000
divine that we find all over the world to this day.

1419
01:41:39,720 --> 01:41:42,960
Speaker 1: That seems to me, my mind, to be part of

1420
01:41:43,000 --> 01:41:46,600
the problem. Is our Western culture in general is a

1421
01:41:46,640 --> 01:41:49,920
part of the problem because we are trained from a

1422
01:41:50,039 --> 01:41:55,800
very early age to look at the world from an analytical,

1423
01:41:57,039 --> 01:42:01,039
separated perspective that we're not a part of this world.

1424
01:42:01,319 --> 01:42:05,079
We are in this world, but the world is separate

1425
01:42:05,119 --> 01:42:10,000
and we are us. And instead of being interconnected, Native

1426
01:42:10,000 --> 01:42:15,560
American cultures, many of them and many other Aboriginal cultures

1427
01:42:15,600 --> 01:42:19,399
around the world, have more of a nature based view

1428
01:42:19,640 --> 01:42:23,359
of reality. They've looked at themselves as being a part

1429
01:42:23,439 --> 01:42:25,600
of the earth, a part of the world, a part

1430
01:42:26,680 --> 01:42:31,840
of the universe, where Western people we just seem to

1431
01:42:31,880 --> 01:42:35,920
separate ourselves from everything. There's us, okay, up there in heaven,

1432
01:42:35,960 --> 01:42:40,119
there's God, there's the devil down here, this and that,

1433
01:42:40,279 --> 01:42:42,840
But we are all separated from everything, and I think

1434
01:42:42,840 --> 01:42:48,560
that's what's keeping us from evolving because Western culture has

1435
01:42:48,720 --> 01:42:55,640
dominated the planet in the last centur has dominated the

1436
01:42:55,640 --> 01:42:58,520
planet in the last century, and it seems to be

1437
01:42:58,800 --> 01:43:01,680
making it even more difficult called for us to be

1438
01:43:01,760 --> 01:43:07,800
able to commune, I guess, to use your title of

1439
01:43:07,840 --> 01:43:10,880
your book, Whittley, to commune with these forces and these

1440
01:43:10,880 --> 01:43:13,119
intelligences the way that maybe we were.

1441
01:43:13,000 --> 01:43:13,479
Speaker 3: Meant to be.

1442
01:43:15,479 --> 01:43:18,239
Speaker 2: Well sure, And of course the problem is is that

1443
01:43:19,000 --> 01:43:23,119
you know, Western science and technology gets so many things

1444
01:43:23,239 --> 01:43:29,479
right and gives us so many things, so many precious,

1445
01:43:29,479 --> 01:43:33,079
precious things that we want, and we wouldn't think of

1446
01:43:33,159 --> 01:43:39,760
giving up like anesthesia or you know, modern communications like

1447
01:43:39,880 --> 01:43:42,960
where we're on now. So it's not as if the

1448
01:43:43,039 --> 01:43:48,119
scientific the Western world is wrong, it's that it's incomplete.

1449
01:43:48,560 --> 01:43:52,640
And it's that we've locked off a big part of

1450
01:43:52,680 --> 01:43:56,239
ourselves too, so that we can specialize in these sort

1451
01:43:56,239 --> 01:44:01,840
of analytical, mechanical and technological skills. But but you know,

1452
01:44:01,880 --> 01:44:06,279
we've lost something too. And other cultures, of course, specialize

1453
01:44:06,319 --> 01:44:11,439
on the soul or specialize on on on magical practice,

1454
01:44:11,479 --> 01:44:15,680
and they sacrifice other things. So there's no there's no

1455
01:44:15,800 --> 01:44:20,520
perfect culture here, we want to be certainly critical of

1456
01:44:20,560 --> 01:44:22,720
our own culture, but we don't want to pretend that

1457
01:44:22,800 --> 01:44:26,479
some other culture has it all right, because they don't.

1458
01:44:27,600 --> 01:44:29,720
I mean, I study cultures for a living, and I

1459
01:44:29,720 --> 01:44:32,159
can tell you there's no such thing as a perfect culture.

1460
01:44:33,800 --> 01:44:36,760
They all they all do some things well, and they

1461
01:44:36,960 --> 01:44:42,279
do other things not just poorly but horrifically, including ours.

1462
01:44:42,600 --> 01:44:46,079
So that's sort of the dilemma of being a human

1463
01:44:46,119 --> 01:44:49,520
being is that you know, you come into the world

1464
01:44:50,199 --> 01:44:53,680
as an infant and you're literally capable of speaking any

1465
01:44:53,800 --> 01:44:57,640
language on the planet. You're capable of becoming any culture

1466
01:44:58,640 --> 01:45:01,880
that you can't of course, all cultures who have to

1467
01:45:01,920 --> 01:45:05,920
be socialized into one and so you lose all those

1468
01:45:06,640 --> 01:45:10,159
language capacities as your brain and your lips and your

1469
01:45:10,520 --> 01:45:14,479
tongue focusing on one language. So that's just part of

1470
01:45:14,520 --> 01:45:19,319
being human. But I think when you know, we run

1471
01:45:19,359 --> 01:45:22,680
into somebody like Willy here who's had a set of

1472
01:45:22,720 --> 01:45:26,760
remarkable experiences that make good sense and another cultural framework

1473
01:45:27,439 --> 01:45:32,520
that seem anomalous or strange in ours, I mean, this

1474
01:45:32,680 --> 01:45:34,960
is where we have to, you know, stop and think

1475
01:45:35,079 --> 01:45:35,600
about that.

1476
01:45:37,079 --> 01:45:41,239
Speaker 1: Where do you and Jeffrey, this is for you in

1477
01:45:41,279 --> 01:45:46,119
your time with Whitley and working with him and writing

1478
01:45:46,159 --> 01:45:52,079
this book Supernatural. Do you see us as a species

1479
01:45:52,319 --> 01:45:57,399
being able to move forward? Or are we in danger

1480
01:45:57,439 --> 01:46:00,960
of falling very much behind? You see? Do you see

1481
01:46:01,000 --> 01:46:04,399
as being able to and with the interaction that Whitley's

1482
01:46:04,399 --> 01:46:08,760
had with the visitors and seeming to push our consciousness,

1483
01:46:08,880 --> 01:46:13,000
do we have the ability now to break free of

1484
01:46:13,079 --> 01:46:17,199
these limitations, moving forward and expanding our awareness and consciousness

1485
01:46:17,640 --> 01:46:19,560
or are we in danger of falling back into a

1486
01:46:19,600 --> 01:46:20,359
new dark Ages?

1487
01:46:22,760 --> 01:46:28,760
Speaker 2: Well, I mean, I think it's probably a little of both.

1488
01:46:28,880 --> 01:46:35,199
I'm a historian, that's my profession, and as Whitley mentioned earlier,

1489
01:46:35,640 --> 01:46:42,560
history is a very tricky thing. We assumed that history

1490
01:46:42,640 --> 01:46:46,159
is this linear line with dates, and we all know

1491
01:46:46,279 --> 01:46:49,199
what the story was. You know, we had, as you said,

1492
01:46:49,239 --> 01:46:51,359
we just had the Dark Ages, and then we had

1493
01:46:51,720 --> 01:46:54,960
the Renaissance, and then the Reformation, and then the Enlightenment

1494
01:46:55,000 --> 01:46:57,920
and then the Industrial Age, and now we're in the

1495
01:46:57,960 --> 01:47:03,000
modern period. Well, that's a story. That's not what happened.

1496
01:47:03,399 --> 01:47:09,439
That's a story that we tell by selecting a few

1497
01:47:09,520 --> 01:47:14,520
elements out of trillions and trillions and weaving them into

1498
01:47:14,560 --> 01:47:18,399
a narrative that we call history. But we can look

1499
01:47:18,439 --> 01:47:22,239
back at that those same elements, the same facts, and

1500
01:47:22,279 --> 01:47:25,359
we can leave a different history with a different moral.

1501
01:47:27,760 --> 01:47:30,840
So in terms of the question of are we evolving

1502
01:47:30,960 --> 01:47:34,159
or are we falling back? Really what you're asking Mark

1503
01:47:34,359 --> 01:47:37,680
is what kind of story should we be telling ourselves?

1504
01:47:37,720 --> 01:47:42,239
How should we be putting the elements of history together

1505
01:47:43,720 --> 01:47:48,359
to move forward or fall back? I think we want

1506
01:47:48,399 --> 01:47:52,119
to think of ourselves as moving forward, and I think

1507
01:47:52,159 --> 01:47:56,359
in many ways we are, But I don't think we

1508
01:47:56,399 --> 01:48:00,800
should be naive about that and just assume that the

1509
01:48:00,880 --> 01:48:05,439
story we're telling ourselves is the only story that can

1510
01:48:05,520 --> 01:48:07,960
be told. And again that's where I think the subduction

1511
01:48:08,119 --> 01:48:11,840
events are so important. It's because they mess up our

1512
01:48:11,880 --> 01:48:19,479
story and they force us to rethink it. So I

1513
01:48:20,000 --> 01:48:23,319
would just be really careful about any kind of simple

1514
01:48:24,079 --> 01:48:28,239
You know, we're moving forward, we're evolving. We were once

1515
01:48:28,600 --> 01:48:33,720
naive and primitive and now we're modern and great. I'm

1516
01:48:33,880 --> 01:48:37,880
very suspicious of this, that narrative, Oh I am.

1517
01:48:38,159 --> 01:48:42,079
Speaker 1: I am too. In fact, I've really been leaning towards

1518
01:48:42,119 --> 01:48:48,880
the idea that perhaps our existence is much older than

1519
01:48:48,920 --> 01:48:52,960
we want. Then modern science or archaeology will have us believe,

1520
01:48:53,880 --> 01:48:57,600
and we may have been looking at many, many different

1521
01:48:57,640 --> 01:49:01,880
times where humanity or version of it has been on

1522
01:49:01,920 --> 01:49:07,920
this planet has reached a high level of advancement evolution technology,

1523
01:49:08,039 --> 01:49:12,479
only to be knocked back by natural disaster, by man

1524
01:49:12,520 --> 01:49:17,239
made disaster, and we start all over again from scratch.

1525
01:49:17,319 --> 01:49:22,720
We could have had many different cycles. A good example

1526
01:49:22,760 --> 01:49:25,720
would be the the stories that you know come from

1527
01:49:25,760 --> 01:49:30,039
Atlantis and the Muria and these other advanced ancient civilizations,

1528
01:49:30,680 --> 01:49:36,960
to the advanced cultures in India and the god I

1529
01:49:37,000 --> 01:49:41,000
can't even say it tonight, Hamamata, Okay, I'm not even

1530
01:49:41,039 --> 01:49:44,840
gonna forget the Indian epics and talking about these great

1531
01:49:45,239 --> 01:49:49,239
you know, societies and these flying machines and different technologies

1532
01:49:50,000 --> 01:49:54,319
that seem to be here many years ago, and a

1533
01:49:54,359 --> 01:49:57,560
lot of people what's popular is of course the Ancient

1534
01:49:57,600 --> 01:50:01,159
Aliens television series, and people think, yes, Aliens came down

1535
01:50:01,199 --> 01:50:05,520
and gave all of this information to mankind. But I

1536
01:50:05,520 --> 01:50:08,920
don't quite buy that as much anymore. While we might

1537
01:50:09,000 --> 01:50:14,359
have had some influence by the Visitors or other beings,

1538
01:50:14,520 --> 01:50:19,920
I have a feeling that we as entities, as an intelligence,

1539
01:50:20,479 --> 01:50:24,079
may have been here for much much, much longer and

1540
01:50:24,119 --> 01:50:28,319
have gone through many different cycles. In these last several

1541
01:50:28,399 --> 01:50:31,600
thousand years is just the latest cycle in our existence.

1542
01:50:32,880 --> 01:50:34,560
What do you think to that, Jeffrey.

1543
01:50:35,000 --> 01:50:38,359
Speaker 2: Well, I think that's another story. I think that's a

1544
01:50:38,439 --> 01:50:43,760
story that people that put together by selecting a very

1545
01:50:43,840 --> 01:50:49,199
few archaeological facts or elements, and then they put those

1546
01:50:49,239 --> 01:50:53,359
elements together to form a story that's different than the

1547
01:50:53,399 --> 01:50:58,319
one that professional archaeology or anthropology gives them. So, I,

1548
01:50:58,479 --> 01:51:02,279
you know, again, not that I have the correct story. Mark,

1549
01:51:02,319 --> 01:51:04,920
I'm not claiming to have the right story. I'm trying

1550
01:51:05,840 --> 01:51:10,319
to just suggest that we're always writing ourselves. We're always

1551
01:51:10,359 --> 01:51:15,520
telling another story, and we need to be more aware

1552
01:51:15,560 --> 01:51:17,840
of that, and we need to tell a story that

1553
01:51:18,560 --> 01:51:22,560
it is more adequate to what we know about the

1554
01:51:22,600 --> 01:51:25,479
world and ourselves today. I will give you a simple example.

1555
01:51:26,760 --> 01:51:32,079
Eighteen fifty nine, Darwin's Origin as Species comes out. It

1556
01:51:32,159 --> 01:51:38,520
was devastating, absolutely devastating to a lot of Evangelical Christians

1557
01:51:38,600 --> 01:51:41,760
in the English speaking world. And the reason that was

1558
01:51:41,800 --> 01:51:47,119
so devastating was because it gave another very plausible story

1559
01:51:47,960 --> 01:51:53,279
for essentially the creation of the world the human species

1560
01:51:53,359 --> 01:51:58,600
that was completely different than the biblical story. You know,

1561
01:51:58,640 --> 01:52:01,079
and I think we're in that, We're always in a

1562
01:52:01,119 --> 01:52:04,560
similar situation. We're finding out more and more about the world,

1563
01:52:04,640 --> 01:52:07,159
more and more about ourselves, more and more about the

1564
01:52:07,239 --> 01:52:09,960
human genome. I think we're going to have a lot

1565
01:52:10,039 --> 01:52:14,399
of Darwinian like revolutions in our thinking over the next

1566
01:52:14,439 --> 01:52:20,279
couple hundred years. I don't think we're done discovering new

1567
01:52:20,319 --> 01:52:23,479
things about the human species. And I think as we

1568
01:52:23,560 --> 01:52:27,239
do that our stories are going to change quite dramatically.

1569
01:52:29,600 --> 01:52:32,920
So again again, you know, being a scholar of religion

1570
01:52:33,039 --> 01:52:36,000
is not about pushing a particular religion or pushing a

1571
01:52:36,039 --> 01:52:39,720
particular story. It's about making people aware that we're all

1572
01:52:39,760 --> 01:52:42,439
telling stories and that we're all living in a story

1573
01:52:42,520 --> 01:52:46,760
that we call a religion, our culture, and so that's

1574
01:52:46,800 --> 01:52:50,840
a that's a tough thing to do sometimes.

1575
01:52:51,359 --> 01:52:54,479
Speaker 1: Well, you know, one thing that I've had the privilege

1576
01:52:54,520 --> 01:52:57,159
of with this show for the past five years is

1577
01:52:57,840 --> 01:53:03,680
having people like yourself, and I have learned so much

1578
01:53:03,720 --> 01:53:08,560
and I continue to learn as we go, and the

1579
01:53:08,600 --> 01:53:13,920
concepts that we talk about here tonight, Jeffrey, especially this

1580
01:53:14,039 --> 01:53:17,720
last comment you've made about our stories, even that's opening

1581
01:53:17,760 --> 01:53:21,800
my eyes and making me think in new and different ways.

1582
01:53:21,960 --> 01:53:26,119
And you know, between yourself and Whitley, if that is

1583
01:53:26,239 --> 01:53:29,159
the goal of or one of the goals that you're

1584
01:53:29,199 --> 01:53:33,359
looking to achieve, is to just get these stories out

1585
01:53:33,399 --> 01:53:37,079
there so people can can think on it and expand

1586
01:53:37,199 --> 01:53:41,520
their awareness of our reality or what we think is

1587
01:53:41,520 --> 01:53:46,760
our reality, of our existence. Then you're doing a marvelous

1588
01:53:46,880 --> 01:53:50,800
job because we need to question ourselves. We need to

1589
01:53:50,880 --> 01:53:54,000
question everything that we're being taught, what we think we

1590
01:53:54,079 --> 01:53:57,079
know in reality, and be open to the fact that

1591
01:53:57,119 --> 01:53:59,880
we don't have the answers. We don't know. It all

1592
01:54:00,119 --> 01:54:03,960
are constantly evolving and learning, and that's what I want

1593
01:54:04,000 --> 01:54:06,199
to do on this show. Is I love talking with

1594
01:54:06,479 --> 01:54:08,880
guests such as yourself, because I look at this for

1595
01:54:09,000 --> 01:54:12,239
me as I'm the student. I'm having a learning experience

1596
01:54:12,279 --> 01:54:15,880
and I try to take something away from from the

1597
01:54:15,920 --> 01:54:22,640
conversations that we have here. Now, the book The Paranormal,

1598
01:54:23,199 --> 01:54:27,800
I mean sorry, The super Natural was just released not

1599
01:54:27,920 --> 01:54:33,039
long ago, Whitley, Where can people find that book?

1600
01:54:36,000 --> 01:54:39,600
Speaker 3: That's a good question. Probably safest to look forward online

1601
01:54:39,720 --> 01:54:42,640
on Amazon or Barnes and Noble or somewhere.

1602
01:54:44,439 --> 01:54:47,720
Speaker 1: I got my copy on Kindle, so you can also

1603
01:54:47,800 --> 01:54:52,560
get it as an ebook format as well. And are

1604
01:54:53,359 --> 01:54:55,960
are both of you are? Do you doing any types

1605
01:54:56,000 --> 01:55:00,600
of speaking experiences or our conferences to talk about this

1606
01:55:00,720 --> 01:55:03,920
subject further? Are you just doing the radio shows at

1607
01:55:03,920 --> 01:55:04,680
this point in time?

1608
01:55:06,000 --> 01:55:07,640
Speaker 3: It's radio shows as far as I know.

1609
01:55:08,680 --> 01:55:13,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, I routinely lecture, mostly at universities around the US

1610
01:55:13,520 --> 01:55:17,000
and in Europe, but you know, none, none in the

1611
01:55:17,079 --> 01:55:22,640
near in the near future. We both have very active websites.

1612
01:55:23,039 --> 01:55:25,159
That's another place people can go more.

1613
01:55:26,640 --> 01:55:30,079
Speaker 1: And uh, Jeffrey, can you tell people what your website is?

1614
01:55:31,079 --> 01:55:35,560
Speaker 2: It's just Cripel dot rice dot e d U so

1615
01:55:35,800 --> 01:55:38,319
k R I p A L dot r I c

1616
01:55:38,560 --> 01:55:41,760
E dot e d U and all my books and

1617
01:55:41,920 --> 01:55:44,840
projects are summarized there listed there.

1618
01:55:45,840 --> 01:55:49,479
Speaker 1: And Whitley your website, which I'm very familiar with, Unknown

1619
01:55:49,560 --> 01:55:54,520
Country dot com. Yes, and you also have your own,

1620
01:55:54,680 --> 01:55:57,399
uh radio show that you do, Dreamland.

1621
01:55:58,039 --> 01:56:00,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's right. Dreamland is on Unknown Country, and so

1622
01:56:00,840 --> 01:56:07,000
is Jerrymy Vaney's The Experience, which is another show. It's

1623
01:56:07,359 --> 01:56:11,960
more conversational and he mostly talks to close encounter witnesses

1624
01:56:12,000 --> 01:56:12,960
and it's quite good.

1625
01:56:14,199 --> 01:56:18,720
Speaker 1: Well, one final question, where now that the book is out,

1626
01:56:19,239 --> 01:56:22,640
what do you want the end result to be? At

1627
01:56:22,640 --> 01:56:25,079
this point, what are you hoping to achieve with this

1628
01:56:25,159 --> 01:56:25,600
book out?

1629
01:56:25,600 --> 01:56:26,000
Speaker 3: There now.

1630
01:56:27,920 --> 01:56:32,880
Speaker 2: Well, the point of the book is not to push

1631
01:56:32,920 --> 01:56:37,600
another story, but to push the conversation up another level

1632
01:56:38,399 --> 01:56:41,079
and get people to think about the stories we're telling

1633
01:56:41,239 --> 01:56:47,079
about these sorts of experiences, and to provide the conversation

1634
01:56:47,439 --> 01:56:51,199
with a lot more nuanced and a lot more sophistication

1635
01:56:52,000 --> 01:56:58,399
than it's had up to this point. Really is that fair? Yeah?

1636
01:56:58,439 --> 01:57:00,560
Speaker 3: I think so fantastic.

1637
01:57:01,279 --> 01:57:03,560
Speaker 1: Well, Whitley and Jeff, I just want to thank you

1638
01:57:03,600 --> 01:57:08,199
both for coming on the show tonight. It's been wonderful

1639
01:57:08,359 --> 01:57:13,800
talking with both of you. And Bruce Pearson has asked

1640
01:57:14,560 --> 01:57:17,079
to send his apologies for the technical issues he had

1641
01:57:17,479 --> 01:57:20,760
on his end, and he wants to wish you both well.

1642
01:57:21,039 --> 01:57:22,920
Irene are you Are you still there?

1643
01:57:23,600 --> 01:57:23,800
Speaker 6: Yeah?

1644
01:57:23,840 --> 01:57:25,119
Speaker 1: I'm here, Okay.

1645
01:57:25,319 --> 01:57:27,680
Speaker 6: Yeah, it was a great Sean as.

1646
01:57:29,079 --> 01:57:29,319
Speaker 3: Well.

1647
01:57:29,680 --> 01:57:32,600
Speaker 1: Again, thank you gentlemen for coming on and we really

1648
01:57:32,680 --> 01:57:34,199
loved having you and we would love to have you

1649
01:57:34,239 --> 01:57:35,920
come back again sometime in the future.

1650
01:57:36,720 --> 01:57:37,600
Speaker 3: Thank you very much.

1651
01:57:38,039 --> 01:57:41,680
Speaker 2: Thank you, mar thank you, thank you.

1652
01:57:43,239 --> 01:57:47,079
Speaker 1: And thank you everyone for listening to another edition of

1653
01:57:47,319 --> 01:57:52,159
Unknown Origins Radio. You can listen live on Wednesday nights

1654
01:57:52,199 --> 01:57:55,760
here on Unknown Origins Radio dot com and on Mondays

1655
01:57:56,239 --> 01:57:59,840
at ten pm Eastern time on the Dark Matter Digital

1656
01:58:00,079 --> 01:58:02,960
at work. Thank you for listening everybody, and have a

1657
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great night Irene. Take care okay.