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Speaker 1: You're listening to the Parallel UK Radio network and this

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is six Degrees of John Keel.

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Speaker 2: Hello and welcome to the six Degrees of John kee podcast.

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I'm your host Barbara Fisher. With me today is another

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podcaster and an author and a wonderful photographer, award winning

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It's Doak Mason and he just came out, i think

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last year with the book Song of the Dark Man,

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Father of Witch's Lord of the Crossroads. And I read

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that and there were a couple of places where it

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was so on the nose to my experience in life

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that I had to kind of close the book and

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set it down and think about it a little while

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and then run over and open it up and read

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some more and then close. So Darra, thank you for coming.

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Speaker 3: Oh it's an absolute pleasure. Thank you, Barbara. I really

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appreciate the invite.

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Speaker 2: So it's great to see you. You guys don't get

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to see him, I'm sorry you'll have to look him

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up on the internet. But it's great to see you,

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great to speak with you. As I said, your podcast

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is wonderful. I've been listening to it for a couple

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of years. Always have interesting guests, sometimes guests that I

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don't ever expect to hear on a paranormal podcast. What

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is your kind of what kind of guests do you

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search for, and why do you pick who you pick?

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Speaker 3: So well? Firstly, thank you for your kind of words

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about my podcast. I appreciate it. It's always nice to hear

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from another podcaster. The the goal with spur Boox was

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to look at spirit communication, magic and folklore from as

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many different angles as as I could, to try and

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build them a panorama and people could take from that

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what they wish. But I've had like Catholic priests, exorcists,

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many many witches, herbless all kinds of of people from

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many different walks of life. And really the goal for

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me is to kind of is to add to the

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kind of the body of commentary, the body of knowledge

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that people can dip into. Really, so it's it's to

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look at different perspectives, different ideas, different experiences and to

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share them with the world. Really, that that's that's that's

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kind of it. So, Yeah, if people get in touch

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with their experiences or a particular area that they're kind

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of very knowledgeable in, then I'm interested talk to them.

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That's that's that's really it you know, it's it's just

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to kind of look at those different perspectives.

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Speaker 2: That's fascinating. So I know you have experience and knowledge

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of the Gin. Again, I saw that and was like, oh,

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I must listen. Then, oh, I have to look at

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his work, because not many Western people have that understanding

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and experience, and certainly not that experience out in the wild,

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out in the world. You know, it's most of us.

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It's academic. And the only reason I know as much

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about them as I do is because I have friends

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who are Muslim, and you know, they're they're my informants,

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and so, you know, I remember when one of them

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first found out I was doing a paranormal podcast. She

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looked at me and to her, the idea of paranormal

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means ghosts, because that's what's on TV. That's what we

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show on TV in America. And she said, you know,

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ghosts aren't ghosts, right, She said, you know that? And

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I said, I know what you're going to say, and

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she said, yeah, they're Gin and they're trying.

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Speaker 1: To fool you.

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Speaker 2: She said, in our religion, you can talk with your

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dead relatives and your ancestors. They're still there, but they

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come to you in dreams. That's when you will see

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them and know them. She said, if they're in your house,

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moving stuff around, making noise, that's a gin. And then

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you know, and she told me all of these things.

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So talk about the Gin a little bit, because that's

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something that Americans and other you know, Western people don't

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necessarily know about or have weird ideas of.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so that the genre are very interesting, and it's

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a really interesting facet facet of Islam and the belief

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in gin because I am, but there's a chapter in

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the Quran called the Gin. It's meant Jenner mentioned countless

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times in the Quran. And I think too, you know,

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I think I think that the framing of this is

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really important because if you transpose say, belief in let's

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say demons or let's say fairies, something something similar to that,

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and you transpose that to the Bible. Demons are mentioned

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in the Bible, but you know, there's no chapter named

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about them, and it's certainly not a living belief where

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in Islam and is very much a living belief. Yes,

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And my exposure came from shooting a photograph guess in Delhi.

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One of my favorite travel photographers was a guy or

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not photographer. Sorry, he's a photographer, but he's more well

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known as a travel writer. A guy called William dl

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rymple who's a Scottish historian and travel writer is wonderful,

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wonderful travel writing and a fantastic historian. And he spent

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a year in Delhi as a young correspondent in the

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eighties and he wrote he wrote a book about his

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year in Delhi as a correspondent, and he titled the

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City of Jins because kind of on the ground locally,

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Delhi was sometimes referred to as the City of Gins.

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And Delhi is made up of five different cities that

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have kind of risen of fallen over the over the

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over the centuries. And he he recounts a couple of

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places where he has conversations with Sufi's and what have

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you about Gin And when I was when I was

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a photographer, I am. I thought it would be a

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great idea. I spent a lot of time in India

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to go back out to India and shoot the locations

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associated with this book City of Gins, that's kind of

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an exploration of the theme of Gin's and related to Delhi.

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And even before I got there, things started going weird.

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There was two principal things before I left. One, I

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had this kind of dream where I was in a

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Sufi shrine and there was a It was a musical celebration.

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The type of music is if people an't familiar, but

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it would be like nusferatili can that's the type of

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Sufi music, and it was it was. It was that

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kind of event. There was a person to my left

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and the left. I'll get into that later, but the

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left being on the left side is quite symbolic. But

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as a person to my left who has head turned

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away from me. He had was wearing a white hat.

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And then I looked to my left and he turned

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and looked at me, and it was his face was

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decomposed and it was very Indiana Jones was almost great

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cliche really, but like a snake came out of one

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eye and went into the other and he said, don't

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come here. And I was fairly rattled by that, but

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was still, I guess, quite materialistic in a way. You

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know my worldview. If you if that happened to me now,

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i'd be like message received. You know, I don't need

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to explore that any further. But at the time I

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was like, okay, well that's weird. Maybe it's just kind

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of nerves, pre travel nerves, that kind of thing. And

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then then I had had my camera, which was like

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a full frame pro camera, some dirt standard appearing in frames,

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and I was like this, okay, I still get my

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gear clean before I go, because that's what you do

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before you go clean yourself if you're good enough, or

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you bring it in together Pro Clean. So I brought

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it in to getther Pro clean and turned up two

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days later to pick it up, and the technician was like,

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I don't know what's going on here, but I've cleaned this,

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but I've tested it and the dirt has come back

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as some kind of oil. I don't know what's going on.

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Live with me the other day. Come back the other day.

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He's like, I'm really sorry, I can't clean your camera.

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This is under a year old. I haven't been anywhere

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that it hasn't had been treated roughly like it's been

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held with the jew kind of reverence that one does

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with this kind of equipment. But he recommends a group

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of technicians who are basically the people that Canon and

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nick On would go to if they need something fixed.

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These guys are down some back alley in London, kind

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of second one hundred year old family business. So bring

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it to them and they call me a week later, going, yeah,

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we can't fix this. We don't know, man. We recommend

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you rip the entire sensor box out and replace it

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and that's going to cost you one thousand pounds and

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I'm like, okay, that's really not worth it. I managed

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to get another camera body from an editor friend of mine,

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which actually was an upgrade just about a week beforehand. Anyway,

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so there's that. So everything that could go wrong went wrong,

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and then in the wrong. I'm taking my follow with

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me this time because he wanted to come with me

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just once, come on one of these trips, and I

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can't see what I do and experience, you know, a

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truly foreign country for himself, just once. And while we're

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waiting to fly and he's a airport, his tooth broke,

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so he's in immense discomfort. We're flying. We arrived in

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Delhi and I'm gonna you know, I'm I'm well seasoned,

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you know, in terms of traveling, never had too much

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hassle of scammers. Usually can spot them a mile away.

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And we got so much hassle. When we arrived, we

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changed hotel three times in two days. Eventually he saw

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a dentist. But yeah, it was just a very very

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difficult departure, difficult landing, everything went wrong. And then we

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visited a number of different sites, supposedly the most haunted

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side in Delhi, a place called for us Shot Cutler,

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was supposed to be home to ten thousand gins. My

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dad at this point is like, you're you're on your own.

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I'm not going to place. And eventually we went to

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a site called Nismadin Alia Darga and this is the

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tomb of the esteemed Suvi Saintisbodin, and it's the place

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for my dream. And it's right in the middle of

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Old Deli and old Daily Old Deli is you know,

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it's this warren of lanes and you know, merchants selling

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their their wares for to give the devotionals to the

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to the shrine and what have you. So it's all

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down this tiny, windy lanes and then it kind of

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opens up into this little marble square where these several

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tombs are, including the tomb of the saint. And I

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have a fixer with me and he talks to the

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kind of chief Soufi there as to what I'm trying

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to do with Trump to achieve, and they point me

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to this kind of little enclosure which has got a

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marble carved screen, and in there are the people who

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are troubled with gin gin possession or evil spirit possession,

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and as a mammal white hat, and and he locks

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eyes on me, and he's like he's just like, you know,

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I can't hear him, but he's like he's mouthing off

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at me. And that was that was kind of that

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keystone photograph that would hold the essay together. But I

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was I was genuinely perturbed to take the photograph because

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I was like, I don't know what this will cost me.

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My fixer was like, there, you go, take take the photo.

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And I raised my camera and I looked through the viewfinder,

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and he immediately the kind of the way just immediately stops,

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just kind of eyeballs me and eyebawls the camera and

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I had to take a photograph, and and yeah, I was,

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I was deeply shaken by the whole thing. Again, it's

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just not messed with the whole way what I kind

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of know retrospectively is I got off pretty lightly, but

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that particular work and the work I did on a

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Hindu sect called the Agori really kind of where the

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foundations form my podcast, you know. And I did a

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series of lectures at I culled paranormal bookshop in London,

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cult tread Walls, and to support the essay on the Gin,

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I did a huge amount of research into the Gin,

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which kind of probably made up the first couple of

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shows of spirit books where those lectures turned into turn

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to the podcasts. And I became fascinated with the similarity

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between Gin and Irish fairies, and you know, really jumped

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out at me that even the taboos around them were

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almost identical, you know, the association with treasure. I think

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leprechauns and gold general associated with very treasure as well,

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this kind of thing, and it doesn't stop there. You know.

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It's like the fairies travel and the Shiki had the

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fairy wind and the travel in the wind. The Gin

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are known as fire spirits, you know, less that with

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with fairies, but even their origin myths are circle around

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the kind of the creation of Adam and then the

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kind of the fallout in heaven, whereas the Gin or

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a third sapient race apart from the angels and humanity

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in Christian In the Christian worldview, it's humans, angels and

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what have you, and the fairies is said to be

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the kind of the angels that fell from heaven. So

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they're very very similar and down to granular things like

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there's a book called Living with Gins by an anthropologists

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called doctor doctor Barbaras Dryskin parents her name correctly, and

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it's her account or living kind of in a lower

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middle class family in Cairo for a few years, and

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00:17:43,960 --> 00:17:48,319
she gives a case of a woman who threw dirty

238
00:17:48,400 --> 00:17:52,000
water out of the house without kind of giving the

239
00:17:52,440 --> 00:18:01,759
the correct warning. And years later I picked up the

240
00:18:01,799 --> 00:18:06,240
local county newspaper in County Mayo and Ireland, the Western People,

241
00:18:06,920 --> 00:18:10,279
and there was a short feature on fairies and belief

242
00:18:10,319 --> 00:18:16,079
in fairies, and it gave the example of throwing dirty

243
00:18:16,200 --> 00:18:22,480
water out of the cabin. One would say a phrase

244
00:18:22,480 --> 00:18:27,200
to give warning, which is essentially translated as lookout, lookout,

245
00:18:27,519 --> 00:18:31,799
dirty water is coming. Is casak chok, So dirty water

246
00:18:31,880 --> 00:18:33,640
is coming. And if you didn't do this and you

247
00:18:33,759 --> 00:18:38,160
accidentally struck a gin or a ferry, there would be

248
00:18:38,200 --> 00:18:41,279
some price to pay and the account they gavehim this

249
00:18:41,279 --> 00:18:43,559
book was this woman did this, and or in the

250
00:18:43,599 --> 00:18:45,880
in the future, this woman did this, and her face

251
00:18:45,960 --> 00:18:50,359
was turned backwards afterwards. Now in the book in the

252
00:18:50,640 --> 00:18:56,079
and the Gin was there was a black dog coming

253
00:18:56,160 --> 00:18:59,440
up the road. While she took this water out. She

254
00:18:59,519 --> 00:19:03,799
was struck. Long she has the site returned. She got

255
00:19:03,799 --> 00:19:07,880
many treatments from a man's and here's the only thing

256
00:19:07,920 --> 00:19:10,920
she could see was a black dog that advenuiteers. I

257
00:19:11,160 --> 00:19:15,640
returned fully. But again the black dog itself, you know,

258
00:19:16,119 --> 00:19:18,079
a symbol that comes both in Gin and a fairy

259
00:19:18,119 --> 00:19:25,240
lore shook being what a famous one in Britain. So

260
00:19:25,279 --> 00:19:27,799
those things kind of intermeahed for me. That's kind of

261
00:19:27,839 --> 00:19:31,920
where all my Gin origin stuff comes from.

262
00:19:31,920 --> 00:19:35,799
Speaker 2: That's interesting. Yeah, the black dog is as soon as

263
00:19:35,960 --> 00:19:37,880
you know. As soon as you said black dog, I

264
00:19:37,920 --> 00:19:43,079
was like, oh yeah, yeah, yeah. I had my very

265
00:19:43,079 --> 00:19:46,799
first clients when I was a personal chef back I

266
00:19:46,799 --> 00:19:52,640
don't know, twenty something years ago. Was a Muslim family

267
00:19:53,599 --> 00:19:58,079
and the wife was from Pakistan and the husband was

268
00:19:58,079 --> 00:20:05,200
from Bangladesh, and they're wonderful people. I loved working for them,

269
00:20:05,799 --> 00:20:09,200
and they were really surprised that I could cook Indian food.

270
00:20:10,720 --> 00:20:14,000
I didn't tell them that I learned by you know,

271
00:20:14,200 --> 00:20:18,079
eating at the Indian restaurant and then deconstructing what I

272
00:20:18,119 --> 00:20:25,359
was eating. And but yeah, I kind of miss misrepresented myself.

273
00:20:25,839 --> 00:20:29,000
Can can you cook Indian food? Yes? I knew three dishes,

274
00:20:29,359 --> 00:20:31,759
but I said yes. And then I had a month

275
00:20:31,880 --> 00:20:36,039
before I got my business license squared away, so I

276
00:20:36,079 --> 00:20:38,039
couldn't really work for anybody. So I had a month

277
00:20:38,920 --> 00:20:41,480
where I would eat at the Indian restaurant they liked

278
00:20:41,519 --> 00:20:46,000
because I was sneaky and asked which one, and then

279
00:20:46,079 --> 00:20:51,359
I started working at the recipes and you know, figuring

280
00:20:51,359 --> 00:20:57,640
it out. The the the server that was always waiting

281
00:20:57,640 --> 00:21:00,720
on us was one of the co owners. He wouldn't

282
00:21:00,759 --> 00:21:03,920
tell me what was in anything, but if he made

283
00:21:03,960 --> 00:21:06,599
a game out of it, if I could guess, if

284
00:21:06,599 --> 00:21:08,240
I told him what I thought was in it, he'd

285
00:21:08,240 --> 00:21:10,880
tell me if I was right or wrong. Yeah, And

286
00:21:10,920 --> 00:21:16,400
so he'd be like yes, yes, yes, no, not that yes, no, yes,

287
00:21:16,759 --> 00:21:19,720
I'd scribble it down. So you know, he helped teach me,

288
00:21:20,640 --> 00:21:23,920
but you know, off to the side weirdly. So anyway,

289
00:21:23,960 --> 00:21:26,200
we got to be friends. After I'd cooked for them

290
00:21:26,279 --> 00:21:32,599
for a while, to the point where the wife would

291
00:21:32,599 --> 00:21:35,839
say things to me, like when her husband was in

292
00:21:35,880 --> 00:21:37,680
the kitchen with me and telling me how to say

293
00:21:37,680 --> 00:21:40,119
the spices, because I was asking, you know, how do

294
00:21:40,200 --> 00:21:42,599
you how do you call cardamom? How do you call

295
00:21:43,279 --> 00:21:48,400
uh Kuman? And so he was telling me, and she's like, no, no, no,

296
00:21:48,519 --> 00:21:52,559
don't learn it from him. He will make you sound

297
00:21:52,680 --> 00:21:57,599
like a Bangladesh. She pumpkin. No, I will tell you.

298
00:21:57,920 --> 00:22:00,640
I was like, I told you, hey, I'm from Virginia.

299
00:22:00,759 --> 00:22:04,079
I can't I can't call somebody a pumpkin. I'm from

300
00:22:04,119 --> 00:22:08,079
the bumpkinest place that we have in America. It's so bumpkin.

301
00:22:08,960 --> 00:22:11,960
And we had fun. But you know, I had them

302
00:22:12,000 --> 00:22:15,200
over for dinner one night and I forgot that dogs

303
00:22:15,240 --> 00:22:22,640
are unclean and that cats are feared by people in

304
00:22:22,680 --> 00:22:25,279
Pakistan because they live on the streets and they might

305
00:22:25,359 --> 00:22:28,279
have diseases. So here I am and there's a dog

306
00:22:28,400 --> 00:22:31,720
sitting on my porch and I was like, oh god,

307
00:22:31,799 --> 00:22:34,640
you know, so I had to help them in and

308
00:22:35,519 --> 00:22:38,200
we had a great time, except one of the cats

309
00:22:38,240 --> 00:22:41,319
would not leave her alone, so I handed her a

310
00:22:41,759 --> 00:22:44,920
we call them a hiss can. But it's the air,

311
00:22:45,599 --> 00:22:48,759
the air that you spray on your computer to clean

312
00:22:48,799 --> 00:22:51,880
the the correct nooks and crannies, and it sounds like

313
00:22:51,920 --> 00:22:54,680
a hiss, and cats will just you know, it doesn't

314
00:22:54,720 --> 00:22:57,119
hurt them. They just run away. And so she got

315
00:22:57,119 --> 00:23:01,240
to where she would just and then giggle because it

316
00:23:01,319 --> 00:23:04,680
was so funny they'd run away. But yeah, they when

317
00:23:04,759 --> 00:23:09,640
they when they talked about dogs with me, I said, well,

318
00:23:09,680 --> 00:23:14,440
I do know that black dogs are a symbol and

319
00:23:14,480 --> 00:23:17,480
they said, oh, yes, the Gin. You know about the Gin?

320
00:23:17,559 --> 00:23:19,440
And I said, yes, I know a little bit about

321
00:23:19,480 --> 00:23:23,480
the Gin. Like nobody in America, there's not that many stuff.

322
00:23:23,519 --> 00:23:26,319
If you can't read Arabic, there's not that many books.

323
00:23:26,319 --> 00:23:29,480
There are a few some of them. Are you look

324
00:23:29,480 --> 00:23:31,799
at it and you go, now that's I don't think that. No,

325
00:23:32,160 --> 00:23:35,759
you're making stuff up. I said, so what is it

326
00:23:35,839 --> 00:23:40,079
with them? Because you know, in Europe black dogs also

327
00:23:40,200 --> 00:23:45,960
have a very similar symbolism, and they're related in a

328
00:23:45,960 --> 00:23:48,680
lot of ways. And so they we had a whole conversation,

329
00:23:49,960 --> 00:23:53,640
the four of us, and and they didn't know that

330
00:23:54,440 --> 00:23:57,920
we had black dog traditions. And I said, and those

331
00:23:57,920 --> 00:24:02,839
black dog traditions came over with the colonists, and especially

332
00:24:02,880 --> 00:24:06,640
in Appalachia, which you know, I'm from that that region,

333
00:24:07,200 --> 00:24:11,480
and like it's almost exactly the same. Like it is

334
00:24:12,319 --> 00:24:16,160
a lot of the stories and songs and traditions kind

335
00:24:16,200 --> 00:24:20,960
of stayed in Appalachia, and some of them weren't added

336
00:24:21,000 --> 00:24:24,559
too much at all. It was it's just that. So

337
00:24:24,599 --> 00:24:27,799
we had a great time. But yeah, as soon as

338
00:24:27,839 --> 00:24:29,839
you said black Dog, I was like, oh, yeah, I know.

339
00:24:32,279 --> 00:24:37,000
And the blindness, of course, there's the story of the

340
00:24:37,119 --> 00:24:41,440
fairy midwife who was instructed to put ointment on the

341
00:24:41,480 --> 00:24:45,920
baby's eyes when the fairy baby was born, and then

342
00:24:46,039 --> 00:24:48,240
she accidentally got some on her eye and then she

343
00:24:48,279 --> 00:24:52,839
could see fairies. And the fairy husband of course, sees

344
00:24:52,880 --> 00:24:55,799
her at the market and she sees him and he

345
00:24:56,480 --> 00:24:59,319
figures out, oh and so he goes and he blinds

346
00:24:59,400 --> 00:25:02,759
her in that eye. I just he just points and

347
00:25:02,799 --> 00:25:07,640
it's over. So yeah, the idea of being struck blind

348
00:25:08,279 --> 00:25:11,839
is exactly the same. That was another thing that that evening.

349
00:25:11,880 --> 00:25:14,880
We were talking about gin and and they said there

350
00:25:14,680 --> 00:25:20,240
are beings in Ireland that can point, and that's Gin.

351
00:25:20,799 --> 00:25:23,720
The gin went to Ireland, you know, I said, Well,

352
00:25:23,799 --> 00:25:28,200
the fairies went to Pakistan. I don't know which one

353
00:25:28,240 --> 00:25:33,480
it is. I think they might be related, and she said,

354
00:25:33,920 --> 00:25:35,799
maybe they're cousins.

355
00:25:36,240 --> 00:25:39,079
Speaker 3: Yeah, there's there's there's definitely something to that, you know.

356
00:25:40,079 --> 00:25:45,039
I think it's just a different cultural expression of the

357
00:25:45,039 --> 00:25:51,720
same thing, and there's somehow related to the land, you know. Yeah, yeah,

358
00:25:51,759 --> 00:25:55,920
they're very very similar ruins as well, that kind of thing,

359
00:25:55,920 --> 00:25:57,240
and it was the same association.

360
00:25:58,119 --> 00:26:02,240
Speaker 2: Yeah. The part about the land, the association with the

361
00:26:02,319 --> 00:26:06,240
land is of course the Gin like wild places and

362
00:26:07,000 --> 00:26:09,519
one of the traditions about them though, and part of

363
00:26:09,559 --> 00:26:13,599
why they mess with humans so much is because originally

364
00:26:13,799 --> 00:26:17,480
the earth belonged to them until Adam was created, yes,

365
00:26:18,160 --> 00:26:19,920
and they got really upset about all that.

366
00:26:20,519 --> 00:26:20,920
Speaker 3: Yeah.

367
00:26:21,279 --> 00:26:24,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, they were banished to the wild places and at

368
00:26:24,960 --> 00:26:27,519
first they didn't like that, but then you know, some

369
00:26:27,559 --> 00:26:29,559
of them were like, I like to go around as

370
00:26:29,599 --> 00:26:33,160
a storm on the sand and blow everything away.

371
00:26:34,200 --> 00:26:39,799
Speaker 3: That the schism goes back to the creation of Adam

372
00:26:40,359 --> 00:26:45,720
and i Bliez, who is kind of the Islamic Satan

373
00:26:47,240 --> 00:26:52,359
who has somehow risen There's a number of thoughts on this.

374
00:26:53,759 --> 00:26:58,359
The less popular is that Eblis was actually an angel

375
00:26:58,640 --> 00:27:04,440
that somehow has free will. The more conventional belief is

376
00:27:04,440 --> 00:27:06,119
that no, he was a gin that rose to the

377
00:27:06,119 --> 00:27:09,200
court of Angels and to the court of Ballah through

378
00:27:09,240 --> 00:27:14,319
his brilliance the creation of Adam. The host of angels

379
00:27:14,319 --> 00:27:16,759
are ordered to bow to him, to kneel to him,

380
00:27:17,160 --> 00:27:22,519
and do he please this is a great offense, and

381
00:27:22,559 --> 00:27:27,720
he refuses. Essentially I'm paraphrasing now, but he says, he

382
00:27:27,799 --> 00:27:29,960
is made of sounding clay, and I am made of fire.

383
00:27:31,079 --> 00:27:34,279
I will not I will not bow. So it's kind

384
00:27:34,279 --> 00:27:40,039
of a sin of pride similar and as a result

385
00:27:40,119 --> 00:27:44,759
that he's he's he's cast out. He's also depicted as

386
00:27:44,759 --> 00:27:50,640
being jack black, and after that he kind of promises

387
00:27:50,839 --> 00:27:58,480
to beset Man and his descendants as they make their

388
00:27:58,480 --> 00:28:01,400
way along the road, you know, from the front, from

389
00:28:01,440 --> 00:28:06,279
the back, from and both from below, he will he

390
00:28:06,319 --> 00:28:07,319
will attack them.

391
00:28:07,640 --> 00:28:15,160
Speaker 2: M h yeah. The tradition of Iblis being jet black

392
00:28:16,440 --> 00:28:21,559
is seen in the fairly recent film Ten Thousand Years

393
00:28:21,559 --> 00:28:26,680
of Longing, Yes, where he is shown as black and hairy.

394
00:28:27,640 --> 00:28:33,039
And I didn't make that connection in my head until

395
00:28:33,079 --> 00:28:36,119
I was watching the movie. And then, you know, sometimes

396
00:28:36,200 --> 00:28:39,160
I feel like, you know, girl, you have stuff thrown

397
00:28:39,200 --> 00:28:41,200
in front of your face for your whole life, and

398
00:28:41,240 --> 00:28:44,400
then you don't. It doesn't work until you see something

399
00:28:44,920 --> 00:28:49,279
and then boom, there it is. I remember, I don't

400
00:28:49,319 --> 00:28:52,759
remember if it's an apocryphal, I'll just call it an

401
00:28:52,799 --> 00:28:57,519
apocryphal tale about the Queen of Sheba. Because of course

402
00:28:57,799 --> 00:29:04,440
Solomon built the first temple be except he didn't build it.

403
00:29:04,519 --> 00:29:05,880
Speaker 3: He used a.

404
00:29:05,920 --> 00:29:09,920
Speaker 2: Ring and his knowledge of magic to get the gin

405
00:29:10,000 --> 00:29:13,119
to build it, and so he had to do with

406
00:29:13,160 --> 00:29:17,680
the gin. Well, the Queen of Sheba was supposedly half gin, yes,

407
00:29:18,160 --> 00:29:23,039
And there is a story about her crossing a river

408
00:29:24,119 --> 00:29:26,920
to come to Solomon and she pulls up her skirt

409
00:29:27,000 --> 00:29:30,319
to not get it wet, and she has hairy legs.

410
00:29:30,839 --> 00:29:33,240
And the first time I read that, I was like,

411
00:29:34,759 --> 00:29:36,640
who cares if she shaves her legs or not? I

412
00:29:36,720 --> 00:29:40,240
mean I was a kid, I was a teenager, so

413
00:29:40,359 --> 00:29:43,960
I was kind of like, you know, and I'm super feminist,

414
00:29:44,039 --> 00:29:46,519
who cares? You know, that's dumb. Women shouldn't have to

415
00:29:46,519 --> 00:29:50,039
shave their legs. I mean, what's I didn't think about

416
00:29:50,039 --> 00:29:53,079
it as no, it's like fur, you know. I didn't

417
00:29:53,079 --> 00:29:56,680
think about that until I saw the gin in ten

418
00:29:56,720 --> 00:29:58,880
thousand years of longing, and I'm like, oh, the Queen

419
00:29:58,920 --> 00:30:04,039
of Sheba had hair, hurry, hairy legs like not yeah, yeah, okay,

420
00:30:04,240 --> 00:30:07,880
she she had gotcha, that makes sense, and that was

421
00:30:07,960 --> 00:30:12,279
showing her Gin nature and that's why it was commentable upon,

422
00:30:12,680 --> 00:30:15,200
you know, it was it was notable, and that's why

423
00:30:15,240 --> 00:30:18,759
it was written down. And I was like, oh, okay, okay.

424
00:30:19,319 --> 00:30:21,960
And they're like the fee in that way because they

425
00:30:22,759 --> 00:30:24,240
will mate with humans.

426
00:30:24,799 --> 00:30:30,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, yes, yeah. So it's one of those kind of

427
00:30:31,559 --> 00:30:36,960
indicators of other worldliness where we have these terryanthropic figures

428
00:30:36,960 --> 00:30:40,119
that are part animal, part human. And this is a

429
00:30:40,400 --> 00:30:44,680
very very old thing. Your Egyptien gods, the horned man Pan,

430
00:30:45,000 --> 00:30:47,759
all these kind of deities are depicted in this way.

431
00:30:48,480 --> 00:30:54,279
And there's a few versions of that story with the

432
00:30:54,359 --> 00:31:00,440
Queen of Siva. Another one is the Gin started rumor

433
00:31:01,359 --> 00:31:06,640
that the Queen of Sheba had these hairy legs in

434
00:31:06,759 --> 00:31:09,119
order to kind of push Solomon off because they feared

435
00:31:09,119 --> 00:31:11,160
that he had an air he would passed the ring

436
00:31:11,200 --> 00:31:12,680
to the air and they would be in safe forever

437
00:31:13,200 --> 00:31:19,519
mm hmm. And to test this, Solomon polished how the

438
00:31:20,559 --> 00:31:26,240
floor of his thrown polished so it's shone like class.

439
00:31:25,799 --> 00:31:31,480
Speaker 2: You see, yea upper skirt. He was a curve, but she.

440
00:31:31,480 --> 00:31:33,559
Speaker 3: Thought it was it looked like water for a moment

441
00:31:33,599 --> 00:31:35,640
and raised her skirts and then he saw her hair,

442
00:31:37,680 --> 00:31:42,839
but she didn't put him off. No, yeah, you know

443
00:31:43,279 --> 00:31:45,720
the rest is pseudo history.

444
00:31:46,359 --> 00:31:49,200
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, I mean, anybody who writes the Song of

445
00:31:49,519 --> 00:31:51,960
Songs is not going to be put off by just

446
00:31:52,039 --> 00:31:55,440
some hairy legs on a lady. It's just, yeah, the

447
00:31:55,480 --> 00:31:59,119
rest of us beautiful. I don't care. I'm Solomon, I'm

448
00:31:59,119 --> 00:32:04,559
the king it I don't. I don't care. Well, this

449
00:32:04,680 --> 00:32:09,960
seems like a pretty good segue to your book, which,

450
00:32:11,319 --> 00:32:13,559
as I said, I got it as soon as it

451
00:32:13,559 --> 00:32:16,079
came out. Actually, I think I had pre ordered it

452
00:32:16,720 --> 00:32:19,519
so that it just showed up at my house as

453
00:32:19,559 --> 00:32:23,279
soon as it was ready. The Song of the dark Man,

454
00:32:23,480 --> 00:32:29,640
father of which is Lord of the Crossroads. So what

455
00:32:29,960 --> 00:32:30,920
inspired this?

456
00:32:32,119 --> 00:32:32,359
Speaker 3: Did it?

457
00:32:32,480 --> 00:32:34,599
Speaker 2: Did it have to do with the Gin a little bit?

458
00:32:34,759 --> 00:32:38,119
Or is it a different through way in your in

459
00:32:38,160 --> 00:32:39,480
your path?

460
00:32:40,960 --> 00:32:47,200
Speaker 3: So, Frank, good question, Like, like spirit Box as a

461
00:32:47,200 --> 00:32:50,200
whole certainly came from the Gin work. You know that

462
00:32:50,200 --> 00:32:53,680
that was I guess the first domino that kind of

463
00:32:53,680 --> 00:32:56,880
inspired the project. And because I was left with these

464
00:32:56,920 --> 00:32:58,160
lectures and I'm like, I don't really know what to

465
00:32:58,200 --> 00:32:59,759
do with these so I'll just put them up on YouTube,

466
00:33:00,079 --> 00:33:06,319
and kind of that became a podcast. And as I

467
00:33:06,400 --> 00:33:10,599
was interviewing people certainly actually take a step back. So

468
00:33:10,720 --> 00:33:12,119
as I looked at kind of a lot of the

469
00:33:12,200 --> 00:33:14,640
gin lore that brought me back to Ireland and fairy lore,

470
00:33:16,400 --> 00:33:18,640
and as I was reading to Your Fairy Lower, I

471
00:33:18,720 --> 00:33:23,359
kept stumbling upon this figure, this dark rider, the dark interceptor,

472
00:33:23,400 --> 00:33:26,359
that would be feature as kind of like a plot

473
00:33:26,400 --> 00:33:30,079
device to move these stories along, that would challenge, that

474
00:33:30,119 --> 00:33:35,480
would kind of present this kind of serious moral questions

475
00:33:35,559 --> 00:33:42,480
of the protagonist, desires against you know, what they really

476
00:33:42,480 --> 00:33:47,279
stood for, this kind of stuff, And to the point

477
00:33:47,319 --> 00:33:50,519
where I was like, this is notable, This figure is,

478
00:33:51,839 --> 00:33:56,799
this type of theme is a notable thing. And at

479
00:33:56,799 --> 00:33:59,160
the same time I was interviewing different kind of medians

480
00:33:59,200 --> 00:34:03,200
and which is and so you know which is started

481
00:34:03,240 --> 00:34:08,480
mentioning this black man, this dark man who I would

482
00:34:08,519 --> 00:34:11,159
appear in dreams without divisions of that would initiate them

483
00:34:11,159 --> 00:34:15,400
into witchcraft. And so I was I was noting the

484
00:34:15,400 --> 00:34:25,159
team and then basically I I translated the term into

485
00:34:25,199 --> 00:34:29,559
Irish into Gaelic as to what I thought it would be.

486
00:34:31,719 --> 00:34:36,239
So the black Man is unfar Dove of the dark

487
00:34:36,280 --> 00:34:40,320
Man is on Far Dark and I searched for these

488
00:34:40,599 --> 00:34:44,119
in the Irish folklore collection ducas that I use the

489
00:34:44,159 --> 00:34:47,960
name of the website, and I found a heap of

490
00:34:48,000 --> 00:34:50,840
stuff and I'm like, okay, right, this is way more

491
00:34:51,159 --> 00:34:54,000
robust than I kind of thought, right, kind of expectatively

492
00:34:54,039 --> 00:34:58,519
looked at it, and then from there I was just

493
00:34:58,880 --> 00:35:02,760
kind of led, I would say, really from to source

494
00:35:02,840 --> 00:35:06,800
point to source point. And then at the time I

495
00:35:06,840 --> 00:35:10,960
was exploring kind of telema as a magical system and

496
00:35:11,079 --> 00:35:15,039
doing some very basic work like breath work and meditation,

497
00:35:15,559 --> 00:35:22,719
and I had a pretty potent vision of him, black silhouette,

498
00:35:22,719 --> 00:35:28,519
black wings, and that was it. Really. I immediately stopped

499
00:35:28,519 --> 00:35:32,840
all the lima. I lost interest in that, you know,

500
00:35:32,960 --> 00:35:37,800
almost immediately, and well, I know, if I'm honest, I

501
00:35:37,920 --> 00:35:40,039
backed off the whole thing. I was like, okay, this

502
00:35:40,119 --> 00:35:43,480
is this is a bit, you know, above my pay grade.

503
00:35:44,400 --> 00:35:46,400
I want to take my time. And I worked at

504
00:35:46,400 --> 00:35:52,039
a friend of mine, Michelle Divisis who we worked probably

505
00:35:52,039 --> 00:35:54,960
for about a year, maybe eighteen months. I'm doing a

506
00:35:54,960 --> 00:35:59,239
lot of kind of divination, a lot of meditation, guided meditations,

507
00:36:00,000 --> 00:36:01,440
started to kind of work out what was going on

508
00:36:03,360 --> 00:36:08,360
until I became more comfortable with what I had kind

509
00:36:08,360 --> 00:36:16,280
of brushed up against, and that fundamentally became came with

510
00:36:16,320 --> 00:36:21,119
a book, you know, that that exploration, my research became

511
00:36:21,199 --> 00:36:25,840
the book eventually to that. So it was a very

512
00:36:25,880 --> 00:36:32,119
personal book. And you know, it's it's it's a spirit

513
00:36:32,199 --> 00:36:35,360
and it's an experience that's is very personal to many people.

514
00:36:36,119 --> 00:36:41,199
You know, it is a frightening one because everything we've

515
00:36:41,239 --> 00:36:44,119
been told today is that is this is not good.

516
00:36:46,679 --> 00:36:50,119
But it's simply not that simple. It's just that simple.

517
00:36:50,159 --> 00:36:57,880
That's all. My experiences have been very illuminating. You know.

518
00:36:58,199 --> 00:37:00,280
It's given kind of a richness and a tech straight

519
00:37:00,280 --> 00:37:02,800
to my life that I did not have. That's what

520
00:37:02,840 --> 00:37:06,119
I'm grateful for. You know, it's it's it's it's not

521
00:37:06,199 --> 00:37:11,119
easy because as as you would expect, those moral questions,

522
00:37:11,159 --> 00:37:13,920
those questions about your character, what you stand for, what

523
00:37:14,000 --> 00:37:17,800
you're willing to stand for, come up in real life

524
00:37:17,840 --> 00:37:26,039
as well, you know, So how it he whatever behaves

525
00:37:26,159 --> 00:37:29,760
in the stories is quite similar to the experiences that

526
00:37:30,440 --> 00:37:34,559
individuals have. Yeah.

527
00:37:35,360 --> 00:37:39,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, So there were a couple of passages I wanted

528
00:37:39,840 --> 00:37:45,199
you to share with our listeners from the introduction the

529
00:37:45,239 --> 00:37:46,719
top of page two.

530
00:37:48,199 --> 00:37:48,679
Speaker 4: Up to.

531
00:37:50,400 --> 00:37:52,239
Speaker 2: The sentence that ends with of the she.

532
00:37:53,599 --> 00:37:58,960
Speaker 3: Oh, yes, okay. It is within this collection of lore

533
00:37:59,079 --> 00:38:01,840
that we can find the Wat, or rather a certain

534
00:38:01,880 --> 00:38:04,559
shape of the Wat, an emanation of the Wat, that

535
00:38:04,719 --> 00:38:08,239
manifested in the wildlands of Europe, from the dark forests

536
00:38:08,639 --> 00:38:11,079
of its eastern borders to the lonely crossroads of the

537
00:38:11,159 --> 00:38:15,840
Irish Hinderlands. A terrible force of nature, a laughing psychopomp

538
00:38:15,880 --> 00:38:18,920
from the underworld, calling for us to lie down the

539
00:38:18,960 --> 00:38:21,920
foul rag and bone shop of the heart, to listen

540
00:38:21,920 --> 00:38:25,039
to the voices of the dead and the sensual whispers

541
00:38:25,079 --> 00:38:25,320
of the she.

542
00:38:27,920 --> 00:38:30,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, that was the first thing that grabbed me and

543
00:38:30,800 --> 00:38:34,599
I had to pause. First off, it's a beautifully written passage,

544
00:38:34,840 --> 00:38:39,199
so thank you for reading it. But it also it

545
00:38:39,320 --> 00:38:44,840
touches upon so much in like a half a paragraph.

546
00:38:46,440 --> 00:38:55,400
You're talking about, you know, the collective unconscious of Western

547
00:38:55,480 --> 00:38:59,519
Europe essentially and Eastern Europe. Yeah, you know, all the

548
00:38:59,519 --> 00:39:03,000
way to the east and you know, back towards the west.

549
00:39:03,960 --> 00:39:12,440
It is something that is, i would say, ingrained in

550
00:39:12,559 --> 00:39:18,280
our understanding, even if we don't venerate it. Yes, I

551
00:39:19,000 --> 00:39:22,199
even look to the modern stories of the shadow people

552
00:39:22,280 --> 00:39:25,679
that people see, or the hat man that people see,

553
00:39:25,719 --> 00:39:28,280
and I'm like, I know who that is, you know,

554
00:39:30,079 --> 00:39:33,840
but look at how people react to them. It is

555
00:39:33,880 --> 00:39:39,119
with fear. And I'm not saying you shouldn't, yeah, totally,

556
00:39:40,320 --> 00:39:46,639
but fear, hesitation, mistrust, and there's you know, like many

557
00:39:46,679 --> 00:39:49,280
things in the Paranormal, there's more than a hint of

558
00:39:49,320 --> 00:39:53,639
the trickster in there. And we all know that. You know,

559
00:39:53,760 --> 00:39:59,440
tricksters can go from the laughing happy coyote being silly

560
00:40:00,239 --> 00:40:03,639
himself into a tree, you know, eaten so much that

561
00:40:03,760 --> 00:40:07,000
his belly's so big that he can't move. You know,

562
00:40:07,199 --> 00:40:10,599
he's a goober, you know. And then we have the

563
00:40:10,719 --> 00:40:15,320
trickster like Puck, who is still on the laughing happy

564
00:40:15,559 --> 00:40:19,159
but he's a little meaner over there. And then we

565
00:40:19,400 --> 00:40:23,840
go to the Odin who, in his way as a trickster,

566
00:40:23,960 --> 00:40:28,880
he will trick people into doing what he wants. So

567
00:40:29,880 --> 00:40:32,440
we have that, and then you know, you throw in

568
00:40:32,480 --> 00:40:37,000
the dark Man and then everybody is like, oh, oh no,

569
00:40:37,920 --> 00:40:43,880
that's that's a big no, no, no no. And that's

570
00:40:44,000 --> 00:40:46,519
part of why I really love this book, because you

571
00:40:46,519 --> 00:40:48,559
you don't take him out of the shadows. He's still

572
00:40:48,599 --> 00:40:52,199
in there. He's still in the dark places, in the underworld,

573
00:40:52,280 --> 00:40:55,960
in the in the belly of the earth herself. You

574
00:40:56,000 --> 00:40:59,360
know that that that's place where we come from and

575
00:40:59,400 --> 00:41:05,039
where we're going to go back to. And it's it's

576
00:41:05,039 --> 00:41:11,239
a it's a very potent image, and it's a very

577
00:41:11,320 --> 00:41:15,599
He's a very potent figure. And I think he this

578
00:41:15,599 --> 00:41:18,559
book came out when it was supposed to. I think.

579
00:41:19,159 --> 00:41:21,840
So the next thing I wanted you to read is

580
00:41:23,119 --> 00:41:25,559
the bottom of that page, where it starts with he

581
00:41:25,719 --> 00:41:31,519
upsets and ends with maybe consumed on the next page.

582
00:41:33,920 --> 00:41:37,880
Speaker 3: He upsets the order of society by empowering chaos, reminding

583
00:41:37,920 --> 00:41:41,159
those in power of the limits to their authority, undermining

584
00:41:41,199 --> 00:41:46,239
their laws, faith, and science in a sort of epithitna

585
00:41:46,320 --> 00:41:53,559
my own words, eptybular epistemological rewilding, and doing it with

586
00:41:53,639 --> 00:41:57,400
a sinister smile and perfect comic timing. He guards the

587
00:41:57,400 --> 00:42:01,599
cold furnace of creation, the dark from where all things come.

588
00:42:02,159 --> 00:42:05,199
When he appears during times of desperation or interrupts a

589
00:42:05,280 --> 00:42:08,840
nighttime journey, it's a call of initiation. If you are cold,

590
00:42:09,440 --> 00:42:13,360
it will be astonishing and horrifying. If you persist, it

591
00:42:13,400 --> 00:42:16,760
will be utterly transformative. If you resist, you may be

592
00:42:16,840 --> 00:42:18,519
consumed m h.

593
00:42:20,639 --> 00:42:24,800
Speaker 2: And then at the end of the next paragraph, starting

594
00:42:24,840 --> 00:42:25,880
with he is the.

595
00:42:29,039 --> 00:42:31,800
Speaker 3: He is the satirical wildness, watching from the shadows and

596
00:42:31,840 --> 00:42:34,320
the dark woods. He rides at the head of the

597
00:42:34,360 --> 00:42:37,159
fairy host. He is the dark One who awakens the

598
00:42:37,199 --> 00:42:39,719
mystic light within the hunter and a lightbearer.

599
00:42:41,000 --> 00:42:43,039
Speaker 2: And then just keep going until we get to the

600
00:42:43,199 --> 00:42:43,760
witches and.

601
00:42:43,719 --> 00:42:48,119
Speaker 3: Storytellers, both of us, the witnesses, those cold to witchcraft,

602
00:42:48,199 --> 00:42:51,599
and those inspired with stories, songs, and art. The Dark

603
00:42:51,639 --> 00:42:55,039
One imparts the most precious insight into our soul's purpose

604
00:42:55,079 --> 00:42:58,440
on this earth. If you listen, he will share with

605
00:42:58,480 --> 00:43:01,440
you an understanding of the deep cathonic power is moving

606
00:43:01,480 --> 00:43:05,320
through your soul, your family line, past, present, and future.

607
00:43:05,679 --> 00:43:08,960
He gives agency to a soul, to the augreies of

608
00:43:08,960 --> 00:43:11,519
his children, the witches and the storytellers.

609
00:43:14,239 --> 00:43:18,039
Speaker 2: See, y'all, you need this book. I'm just saying you

610
00:43:18,119 --> 00:43:24,199
heard that right, This that grabbed me, And like I said,

611
00:43:24,239 --> 00:43:26,599
I had to close the book, sit and think about

612
00:43:26,639 --> 00:43:29,480
it for a minute and go, okay, okay, this sounds

613
00:43:29,519 --> 00:43:34,880
really familiar, not from another book. It's something I knew

614
00:43:34,920 --> 00:43:37,960
in my heart. So I was and I did not

615
00:43:38,119 --> 00:43:41,039
expect to have someone you know, write it down in

616
00:43:41,119 --> 00:43:44,199
a book and you know, have it out in the

617
00:43:44,239 --> 00:43:48,280
world where anybody can just pick it up, because, as

618
00:43:48,320 --> 00:43:56,039
you say, this figure is one who's been denied in

619
00:43:56,119 --> 00:43:59,000
our society for a very long time and has been

620
00:43:59,000 --> 00:44:07,079
pushed away, you know, all but stomped on. I you know, yes,

621
00:44:07,280 --> 00:44:11,320
there is a touch of demonic to him, but I

622
00:44:11,400 --> 00:44:16,960
actually think that's incorrect. It's more of a dimonic thing,

623
00:44:17,840 --> 00:44:24,159
a being that is between humanity and God. And when

624
00:44:24,199 --> 00:44:26,840
I say God, I made all the stuff, the universe

625
00:44:26,880 --> 00:44:31,639
itself is God to me. So he's one of the

626
00:44:31,679 --> 00:44:36,559
creatures that gives faces to God that so we can communicate.

627
00:44:39,239 --> 00:44:45,960
I would say. Another powerful such person would be the

628
00:44:46,000 --> 00:44:49,840
blessed Virgin Mary. She gives us a face so that

629
00:44:49,880 --> 00:45:00,400
we can communicate and not just be overwhelmed. Interestingly. Uh

630
00:45:01,119 --> 00:45:07,480
that that thing about that bit about telling the uh

631
00:45:07,840 --> 00:45:14,920
powers that be uh the uh the beings that that

632
00:45:15,119 --> 00:45:20,360
move our society. He empowers chaos. He throws a monkey

633
00:45:20,440 --> 00:45:25,360
wrench into the works so that those who work with

634
00:45:25,679 --> 00:45:31,920
power over people and and are I would say totalitarian

635
00:45:32,000 --> 00:45:38,480
and hierarchical in their means of work. He basically just

636
00:45:39,400 --> 00:45:43,159
puts a puts a little stoppage into the works. He

637
00:45:43,559 --> 00:45:47,760
goes into the machinery and and clogs up the gears.

638
00:45:49,039 --> 00:45:51,960
And I think that's a very important thing to know

639
00:45:52,079 --> 00:45:58,480
about these days. Yeah, you know, we're having a time

640
00:45:59,199 --> 00:46:03,599
on in the West right now where there's all sorts

641
00:46:03,639 --> 00:46:09,159
of bad ideas coming to the fore, ideas that I

642
00:46:09,320 --> 00:46:13,480
thought we knew were bad. Just maybe that's just me,

643
00:46:13,960 --> 00:46:17,599
but I thought we knew that, you know, hating on

644
00:46:17,719 --> 00:46:21,639
people was a terrible thing. But apparently not there are

645
00:46:21,639 --> 00:46:22,840
people who want to do that.

646
00:46:24,039 --> 00:46:24,320
Speaker 1: Well.

647
00:46:25,840 --> 00:46:29,920
Speaker 2: You know, as a light bringer, it isn't just light light,

648
00:46:30,199 --> 00:46:35,800
it's illumination and understanding. A seeing is seeing of truth,

649
00:46:37,199 --> 00:46:40,880
whether it's good or bad. We see the truth. I

650
00:46:40,920 --> 00:46:46,480
also see this as this dark man is being connected

651
00:46:46,519 --> 00:46:51,159
to Jung's shadow. You know, we have ego, we have,

652
00:46:51,199 --> 00:46:54,280
yet we have the shadow, you know, and the shadow

653
00:46:54,480 --> 00:46:56,679
is the part of us that we just shoved down

654
00:46:57,440 --> 00:47:00,400
and don't look at It. Doesn't mean it's bad, but

655
00:47:00,480 --> 00:47:05,079
it is socially unacceptable, you know, depending upon what society

656
00:47:05,119 --> 00:47:09,239
you live in, And so we shove it away. And honestly,

657
00:47:09,599 --> 00:47:14,199
I feel like our entire social systems are looking at

658
00:47:14,719 --> 00:47:16,000
the collective shadows.

659
00:47:18,000 --> 00:47:20,199
Speaker 3: Yeah. I think there's something to that for sure.

660
00:47:21,000 --> 00:47:25,480
Speaker 2: And so the dark Man kind of can show us

661
00:47:25,519 --> 00:47:34,079
the way bringer of light, bringer of truth or shower

662
00:47:34,119 --> 00:47:35,800
of truth. I don't think he brings it. I think

663
00:47:35,800 --> 00:47:36,440
he shows it.

664
00:47:37,000 --> 00:47:41,239
Speaker 3: I think, well, if you think about the stories, you

665
00:47:41,280 --> 00:47:47,119
know that the moral questions within the stories, it's rarely

666
00:47:48,440 --> 00:47:53,400
him who carries out an act, if ever, it's more

667
00:47:54,440 --> 00:47:58,559
the situation that he may orchestrate, and that's someone make

668
00:47:58,599 --> 00:48:05,360
a decision, and that decision is a moral one, and

669
00:48:05,440 --> 00:48:07,800
that is where the kind of the depth of the

670
00:48:07,840 --> 00:48:12,000
individual's character is revealed. And that might be kind of

671
00:48:12,039 --> 00:48:15,760
like wealth over the well being of somebody else, that

672
00:48:15,920 --> 00:48:19,480
kind of thing. Right, So this is what we see

673
00:48:19,480 --> 00:48:26,760
again and again, and I think it's it's similar. But equally,

674
00:48:26,760 --> 00:48:31,199
if we look at say the like the historical witch

675
00:48:31,239 --> 00:48:41,360
trials of Scotland seventeenth century stuff, you had numerous accounts

676
00:48:41,840 --> 00:48:50,920
of witch trials and these were poor people, you know,

677
00:48:50,960 --> 00:48:53,880
they weren't you know, it wasn't accounts of the of

678
00:48:54,239 --> 00:48:57,440
the super wealthy. These were accounts of pretty much poor

679
00:48:57,480 --> 00:49:03,679
people on the breadline or really clinging onto to subsistence

680
00:49:03,719 --> 00:49:06,480
farms in the in the peripheries of Britain and Ireland.

681
00:49:06,559 --> 00:49:10,039
So primary story not Ireland because there were very few

682
00:49:10,079 --> 00:49:14,400
buch Draws around, but there was plenty in Britain. But

683
00:49:15,800 --> 00:49:20,719
that that's kind of telling you something about that empowerment, right,

684
00:49:20,920 --> 00:49:25,000
So people who have no religious power, no political power,

685
00:49:25,159 --> 00:49:33,280
no financial power, are being contacted and initiated by this

686
00:49:33,440 --> 00:49:38,639
birth mm hmm. And in a way you've got this

687
00:49:38,760 --> 00:49:48,679
kind of like dual belief where people pray to God

688
00:49:48,760 --> 00:49:53,079
for salvation but to the devil for survival. Mm hm.

689
00:49:54,320 --> 00:49:56,559
Those things are kind of happening at the same time.

690
00:49:57,320 --> 00:50:00,800
And equally like the gifts of cures, the gifts of healing,

691
00:50:00,840 --> 00:50:05,159
the gifts of psychic capability, all that kind of stuff

692
00:50:05,639 --> 00:50:11,960
magic could come from him or spirits in his pay

693
00:50:12,800 --> 00:50:17,280
m h And then you know, and certainly the accounts

694
00:50:17,320 --> 00:50:21,199
are not all rosy. You know, some of them are

695
00:50:21,239 --> 00:50:29,079
quiet lewd, and you know they don't leave anything to

696
00:50:29,119 --> 00:50:32,599
the imagination. In many places. Isabel Gaudi famously is an

697
00:50:32,679 --> 00:50:40,320
incredibly lowered account. But it's consistent, you know, with with

698
00:50:40,400 --> 00:50:45,320
the accounts of modern which is and and those who

699
00:50:45,360 --> 00:50:56,840
came before. Yes, it's it's it's certainly there, chipping away

700
00:50:57,280 --> 00:51:00,239
at power, and sometimes all that takes is an idea,

701
00:51:00,599 --> 00:51:04,280
you know, or just you know, it's like the truth

702
00:51:04,280 --> 00:51:06,760
is still the truth, you know, no matter what people

703
00:51:06,840 --> 00:51:11,679
say about it. So it's that's the kind of way

704
00:51:11,719 --> 00:51:16,360
that it would twist things, and by kind of showing

705
00:51:16,360 --> 00:51:17,480
the truth, you know.

706
00:51:17,840 --> 00:51:25,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, speaking of Isabelle Goudy for for my

707
00:51:25,920 --> 00:51:31,719
listeners who are familiar with Tim Renner over at Strange Familiars,

708
00:51:31,760 --> 00:51:35,400
he asked me to guest with him and work with

709
00:51:35,480 --> 00:51:43,480
him and talk about Isabelle Goudi and yeah, she's my girl. Uh.

710
00:51:43,800 --> 00:51:49,840
I first learned about her in in in my teenhood, right,

711
00:51:49,960 --> 00:51:55,440
and the first I saw of her was this awful

712
00:51:55,960 --> 00:52:04,280
paperback novel by Jane Pankhurst that is only really notable

713
00:52:05,159 --> 00:52:08,840
in that it was the very first cover art that

714
00:52:09,280 --> 00:52:13,920
the illustrator Rowena Morale did, and she's like, you know,

715
00:52:14,000 --> 00:52:18,480
she's like there with Boris Fayejo and Frank Frazetta for

716
00:52:18,639 --> 00:52:21,960
fantasy covers in this you know, sixties, seventies and eighties.

717
00:52:23,079 --> 00:52:26,000
So she wasn't famous when she did this. This was

718
00:52:26,000 --> 00:52:29,800
the very first one. And so you can't get the paperback,

719
00:52:29,840 --> 00:52:32,199
which cost I don't know, not even a dollar. When

720
00:52:32,199 --> 00:52:36,599
It was first published for less than forty dollars now

721
00:52:36,719 --> 00:52:40,760
because it's not only is it her first cover, but

722
00:52:40,920 --> 00:52:43,320
it's a it's a byfold sea. You open it up

723
00:52:43,920 --> 00:52:47,199
and there's two scenes, so it's like two for the

724
00:52:47,239 --> 00:52:50,559
price of however many, you know, maybe a dollar twenty

725
00:52:50,599 --> 00:52:53,559
five or whatever it used to be. But that my

726
00:52:53,679 --> 00:52:55,960
mom had had bought the book and then hid it

727
00:52:56,000 --> 00:53:00,760
from me after she read it. Yeah, see, she should

728
00:53:00,800 --> 00:53:03,639
have just thrown it on the on the coffee table

729
00:53:03,679 --> 00:53:05,519
and said, oh, that's a really great book. You should

730
00:53:05,559 --> 00:53:07,239
read it, because I probably wouldn't have read it then,

731
00:53:09,039 --> 00:53:12,400
you know, so of course what did I do? But

732
00:53:12,639 --> 00:53:16,320
you know, go and read it. And it does follow

733
00:53:17,039 --> 00:53:26,480
her trial mostly, but they just you said it was lurid,

734
00:53:26,760 --> 00:53:31,239
and it is. But you know, a nineteen seventies author

735
00:53:31,280 --> 00:53:35,119
of trashy books can can take the lurid and elevate

736
00:53:35,159 --> 00:53:41,639
it to true trashiness. It was. It was. I've read

737
00:53:41,639 --> 00:53:44,559
it as as an adult and gone, oh my god,

738
00:53:44,599 --> 00:53:48,320
this is so awful, you know, this is just this

739
00:53:48,360 --> 00:53:52,320
is badly Oh my god, this isn't purple prose. Angela

740
00:53:52,360 --> 00:53:57,039
Carter is purple prose? Is this is magenta or something?

741
00:53:57,239 --> 00:53:59,480
I don't know what color it is, but it's it's bad.

742
00:54:01,119 --> 00:54:04,039
Speaker 3: It sounds brilliant, it is it is.

743
00:54:05,760 --> 00:54:11,159
Speaker 2: Anyway, I was looking at several books about her other

744
00:54:11,280 --> 00:54:18,960
than that one, and I realized how utterly impoverished the

745
00:54:19,719 --> 00:54:26,519
people who were pointed to in these trials were. You know,

746
00:54:26,800 --> 00:54:30,960
she talks about using Well, one of the things that's

747
00:54:31,079 --> 00:54:35,800
interesting about this section of Scotland when we're talking about

748
00:54:35,800 --> 00:54:38,599
witches is they talk about the Queen of el fame.

749
00:54:40,079 --> 00:54:43,199
They talk about the dark Man or the black Man.

750
00:54:43,679 --> 00:54:45,039
Speaker 3: Yeah.

751
00:54:45,840 --> 00:54:49,639
Speaker 2: Who Everybody's like, well, that's the devil and maybe yes,

752
00:54:50,000 --> 00:54:56,920
maybe no. And then we also have when they get familiars,

753
00:54:56,960 --> 00:54:59,679
they get them from as much from the Queen of

754
00:54:59,719 --> 00:55:05,079
Elf as from the dark Man. So you have your

755
00:55:05,639 --> 00:55:09,280
you know, fairy familiars and you have your imps given

756
00:55:09,480 --> 00:55:15,039
by the dark Man. First off, that's more complicated than

757
00:55:15,519 --> 00:55:18,880
a lot of the English stuff, the Pendle which trials

758
00:55:19,719 --> 00:55:26,079
were much more simple. The Scottish people it got mixed

759
00:55:26,119 --> 00:55:31,000
together with several different bits of folklore. Yeah, and that

760
00:55:31,119 --> 00:55:33,920
makes it much more interesting to read.

761
00:55:35,000 --> 00:55:40,599
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean there are cases in the very south

762
00:55:40,639 --> 00:55:43,800
coast of England where you've got something similar. I know

763
00:55:43,840 --> 00:55:45,559
exactly what you mean in terms of it being more

764
00:55:45,639 --> 00:55:50,599
kind of black and white where fairy doesn't appear at all.

765
00:55:52,320 --> 00:55:56,199
But I mean, certainly, like obviously this is the case

766
00:55:56,239 --> 00:56:03,199
of and and he was put on trial in like

767
00:56:03,360 --> 00:56:09,760
fifteen ninety seven, and part of his his trial records

768
00:56:09,239 --> 00:56:16,360
he is accused of having carnal dealings with the Queen

769
00:56:16,360 --> 00:56:22,239
of elfhim devilish sprite, and indeed she begat several barns

770
00:56:22,320 --> 00:56:25,679
by him. So this kind of thing, you know, and

771
00:56:25,840 --> 00:56:30,480
like I mean, the Survey of Scottish Witchcraft is an

772
00:56:30,480 --> 00:56:42,440
extraordinary resource. There's it's a database of county records, court

773
00:56:42,559 --> 00:56:49,519
records of the testimonies and accounts of of these witch trials.

774
00:56:50,000 --> 00:56:53,880
And the dark Man is certainly not universally present, you know,

775
00:56:54,119 --> 00:56:57,599
But I mean, but there's doesn't a guess where he is.

776
00:56:58,239 --> 00:57:04,920
Like I had an interestingly, you know, it's not always

777
00:57:06,239 --> 00:57:10,519
the devil as aware, but the King of the Fairies.

778
00:57:11,840 --> 00:57:13,760
And I try to talk to this in the book

779
00:57:13,800 --> 00:57:19,079
is that it is not a simple categorization at all.

780
00:57:19,159 --> 00:57:22,880
It is very very murky. You have Lord of the Dead,

781
00:57:23,159 --> 00:57:26,199
King of the Fairies. You got certainly get tales in

782
00:57:26,239 --> 00:57:29,880
Ireland where it's the King of the fairies, who who

783
00:57:30,159 --> 00:57:33,400
presents us as as you would recognize the dark Man.

784
00:57:35,480 --> 00:57:35,920
Speaker 4: But like.

785
00:57:37,639 --> 00:57:41,159
Speaker 3: It it's prolific, like I mean, like some of the accounts,

786
00:57:41,159 --> 00:57:45,800
Like there's Margaret Alexander, she was tried in sixteen forty seven,

787
00:57:46,679 --> 00:57:49,639
referred to a man in black clothing who made her

788
00:57:49,679 --> 00:57:54,719
go forward. She spoke to him as being the king

789
00:57:54,760 --> 00:57:57,599
of the fairies, and that she had sex with him.

790
00:57:58,079 --> 00:58:00,960
And she described as nature as being cold. It's not

791
00:58:01,000 --> 00:58:04,239
knowing what happened to her. Another lady and another Margaret

792
00:58:04,320 --> 00:58:09,599
Marvin Allen, her servants testified this a black man go

793
00:58:09,760 --> 00:58:15,880
into her her room and move around like he said

794
00:58:15,920 --> 00:58:17,880
that he had who's and like you know, for listeners,

795
00:58:17,880 --> 00:58:20,599
when we say black man, we're not talking about anybody

796
00:58:20,679 --> 00:58:24,920
of African descent. We're literally talking about someone who would

797
00:58:24,920 --> 00:58:28,719
be quote unquote kind of into European but appears jet black.

798
00:58:31,360 --> 00:58:33,679
And then they give the countless to these and they

799
00:58:34,119 --> 00:58:41,000
also involve shape shifting, where cases of someone who appeared

800
00:58:41,000 --> 00:58:45,320
to someone's dead husband and you know what, would have

801
00:58:45,440 --> 00:58:51,239
sex with the widow and then revealed that the the

802
00:58:52,639 --> 00:58:57,440
dark man identity and and invite them into witchcraft and

803
00:58:57,480 --> 00:59:03,719
initiation in exchange for in sometimes like an income, you know,

804
00:59:03,760 --> 00:59:06,480
but yeah, there was. There was. There was a case

805
00:59:06,679 --> 00:59:10,920
not far from where I live, where there was a

806
00:59:10,920 --> 00:59:17,800
witch trial seventeenth century. And interestingly that this story is

807
00:59:17,840 --> 00:59:21,239
interesting because it has so many hallmarks. But one of

808
00:59:21,239 --> 00:59:24,119
the things that kind of kicked these elements off that

809
00:59:24,199 --> 00:59:28,440
seems to be a common enough starting point for these

810
00:59:28,440 --> 00:59:32,639
types of experiences some kind of trauma. And in this case,

811
00:59:33,840 --> 00:59:37,320
this particular woman was struck down by malaria and she

812
00:59:37,400 --> 00:59:44,360
started seeing spirits, and these spirits in give me the

813
00:59:44,360 --> 00:59:50,199
information that there was there was gold nearby, and she

814
00:59:50,320 --> 00:59:55,360
went kind of this over period of months. They also

815
00:59:55,400 --> 01:00:00,760
involved a the witch to try and heal her, and

816
01:00:00,800 --> 01:00:06,280
the witch got prosecuted as a result. But this account

817
01:00:06,320 --> 01:00:09,840
that she gives of trying to find this this this

818
01:00:10,159 --> 01:00:16,440
crock of gold, and she's walking across this field, and

819
01:00:16,480 --> 01:00:20,920
across the field she sees beyond a hedge a beautiful

820
01:00:20,920 --> 01:00:24,800
woman in a green dress, and beside hers stood a

821
01:00:24,960 --> 01:00:29,280
man in black clothing, so the presenting as a couple

822
01:00:29,679 --> 01:00:33,960
of sort. And she asks the spirit who who is that?

823
01:00:34,480 --> 01:00:37,400
And she says, that is the Queen of the fairies,

824
01:00:37,480 --> 01:00:41,320
Queen of Elphine. And if you kneel to her, she

825
01:00:41,320 --> 01:00:45,280
will give you an income. Didn't say the man in

826
01:00:45,320 --> 01:00:49,840
black was, but I was pretty sure there was. And

827
01:00:50,039 --> 01:00:54,360
you know, this is from the very very south coast

828
01:00:54,360 --> 01:00:57,480
of England, like closer to France than then to London,

829
01:00:57,880 --> 01:01:04,800
so you you do have similar things. But yeah, this

830
01:01:05,519 --> 01:01:11,920
is where the lines overlap wildly, you know. And it's

831
01:01:12,719 --> 01:01:15,199
just cannot be pinned down. And the kind of the

832
01:01:15,280 --> 01:01:19,079
Christian or more broadly Abrahamic idea of devil, it just

833
01:01:19,119 --> 01:01:24,440
falls down. It's not an encompassing definition at all. That's

834
01:01:24,440 --> 01:01:26,559
not to say those things don't exist. I'm just saying

835
01:01:27,199 --> 01:01:30,840
that for what I'm describing in the Dark Man, it's

836
01:01:30,920 --> 01:01:31,719
just not that simple.

837
01:01:33,519 --> 01:01:38,960
Speaker 2: No, No, it isn't. And it's really really interesting that.

838
01:01:41,039 --> 01:01:44,880
You know, if you go to continental Europe then and

839
01:01:45,000 --> 01:01:50,880
you have the Earl King, Earl Knick, you have a Wharton,

840
01:01:51,760 --> 01:01:56,039
you have up in the North odin same guy who

841
01:01:56,119 --> 01:02:01,679
leads the wild hunt. Yes, you know sometimes a lady

842
01:02:02,960 --> 01:02:07,400
in white named Perchta leads the wild hunt, but she

843
01:02:07,639 --> 01:02:13,960
has her retinue of Pricton who are Oh they look

844
01:02:14,039 --> 01:02:19,559
like your traditional shaggy haired, cloven hooved, big horned devil guys.

845
01:02:22,000 --> 01:02:25,000
And you know, you just see this over and over

846
01:02:25,159 --> 01:02:31,519
and over, and there's overlap and Perkta also has her children,

847
01:02:32,559 --> 01:02:37,920
the Hymchin, who are the souls of babies who or

848
01:02:38,000 --> 01:02:41,559
children who died before being baptized, so she takes care

849
01:02:41,639 --> 01:02:48,280
of them. I made kind of a goof of myself.

850
01:02:49,280 --> 01:02:56,239
I went to see a tele streamed version of The Nutcrackers.

851
01:02:56,320 --> 01:03:01,800
So it was streaming from Moscow, right, and it was

852
01:03:01,840 --> 01:03:05,199
a beautiful production. And I you know, first off, my

853
01:03:05,239 --> 01:03:08,519
friends didn't know I knew anything about ballet. But I'm

854
01:03:08,559 --> 01:03:12,320
watching it and right before the dance of the Snowflakes,

855
01:03:12,440 --> 01:03:17,559
there is a very dark scene, dark in the stage

856
01:03:17,599 --> 01:03:26,760
and they're in a graveyard and these child dancers come

857
01:03:26,800 --> 01:03:31,800
out dressed all in white with drapy, you know, dressy things,

858
01:03:32,480 --> 01:03:40,320
and they're holding spheres that glow. Mouth opens, sound comes out.

859
01:03:40,719 --> 01:03:42,519
Oh it's the Himchin.

860
01:03:43,280 --> 01:03:43,880
Speaker 3: Oh my god.

861
01:03:44,320 --> 01:03:46,440
Speaker 2: Okay, So nobody's sitting with me knew what I was

862
01:03:46,480 --> 01:03:50,039
talking about. So I'm sitting here and then I was like, oh,

863
01:03:50,199 --> 01:03:52,880
oh my god. And so I'm quiet, but you know,

864
01:03:52,920 --> 01:03:55,280
my friend is like, the ho what and I'm.

865
01:03:55,159 --> 01:03:59,079
Speaker 4: Like, it's it's the souls of unbaptized babies perked A.

866
01:04:00,079 --> 01:04:03,320
See the lady in white, lady that's Perkeda. She's she's

867
01:04:03,360 --> 01:04:06,920
the winter mother, She's the one that she can sometimes

868
01:04:07,000 --> 01:04:11,559
lead the Well, I know I was speaking no content

869
01:04:11,639 --> 01:04:14,440
that they understood. This is you know, content free statements. Lady,

870
01:04:14,480 --> 01:04:17,960
I don't know what you're talking about. But I did

871
01:04:18,000 --> 01:04:21,000
explain it after the show and she was like, I

872
01:04:21,039 --> 01:04:22,719
had no idea what you were talking about. But I

873
01:04:22,719 --> 01:04:26,920
didn't realize that this story is so dark. And I

874
01:04:26,960 --> 01:04:30,320
was like, well, it's from the Tales of Hoffmann. It

875
01:04:30,320 --> 01:04:32,480
was a German dude who wrote it. If you look

876
01:04:32,519 --> 01:04:36,280
at any German folklore, it is not it is not pretty.

877
01:04:36,360 --> 01:04:41,639
It's you know, even the Grimm's Brothers those those were

878
01:04:41,679 --> 01:04:47,119
not pretty stories. And so yeah, but that was one

879
01:04:47,159 --> 01:04:50,199
of the times when I just blurted out something. You know,

880
01:04:50,239 --> 01:04:54,239
my folkloric heart was just thrumming with joy.

881
01:04:54,360 --> 01:04:59,159
Speaker 2: It's like, oh, this image, I know this. But so

882
01:04:59,239 --> 01:05:01,639
that's what my second kid had to grow up with,

883
01:05:02,840 --> 01:05:08,599
moms saying ridiculous things like that in public. In a

884
01:05:08,639 --> 01:05:12,920
lot of what you're talking about in here is folklore.

885
01:05:12,960 --> 01:05:18,000
It is stuff from the past, but it has much

886
01:05:18,119 --> 01:05:24,400
meaning for the present. And you found people who experienced

887
01:05:24,480 --> 01:05:27,960
these things that you know, are supposedly dead and gone,

888
01:05:28,480 --> 01:05:32,199
you know, not not in our psyche, not part of

889
01:05:32,239 --> 01:05:36,519
our collective unconscious anymore at all. Which, yeah, you and

890
01:05:36,599 --> 01:05:40,559
I know that's never really true. It's all still there.

891
01:05:41,079 --> 01:05:46,360
But I thought it was interesting the the different modern

892
01:05:47,639 --> 01:05:53,400
stories that you found from uh, you know, real life

893
01:05:53,440 --> 01:06:00,679
witches and mages and you know, other practitioners. Yeah, so

894
01:06:00,840 --> 01:06:02,840
how did you find these folks?

895
01:06:03,000 --> 01:06:10,119
Speaker 3: Well, a lot of them came through the podcast, but

896
01:06:10,239 --> 01:06:14,760
others were kind of directed to me because I was

897
01:06:17,679 --> 01:06:24,639
talking about the dark Man and that in two small circles,

898
01:06:25,239 --> 01:06:27,960
that kind of work got out, and you know, people

899
01:06:28,039 --> 01:06:33,079
ended up coming to me with with with their experiences. Equally,

900
01:06:33,119 --> 01:06:35,360
there were others that I reached out to, you know,

901
01:06:36,320 --> 01:06:38,559
could you talk about kind of your expertise, your area

902
01:06:39,679 --> 01:06:46,880
of experience, or whatever discipline of magic that they may

903
01:06:48,800 --> 01:06:51,519
be well versed in. And that was it. But what

904
01:06:51,559 --> 01:06:54,840
I was trying to do with it was to anchor

905
01:06:56,760 --> 01:07:00,800
the folkloric element in the present day, in real experience,

906
01:07:02,760 --> 01:07:04,599
and that was the goal. It was to kind of

907
01:07:04,639 --> 01:07:13,480
present this is the kind of the contextual folklore history too,

908
01:07:13,519 --> 01:07:17,199
to anchor in the in the present, and you know,

909
01:07:17,519 --> 01:07:21,360
some people found that hard. You know, I've I've had

910
01:07:21,360 --> 01:07:24,239
people go I just didn't believe those stories, like okay,

911
01:07:24,280 --> 01:07:28,039
well I don't know what to tell you. But others,

912
01:07:27,880 --> 01:07:31,000
most the majority of people, actually that hit home for them.

913
01:07:31,119 --> 01:07:35,159
That kind of really it gave weight to the first

914
01:07:35,199 --> 01:07:35,960
part of the book.

915
01:07:36,760 --> 01:07:37,159
Speaker 1: Mm hmm.

916
01:07:38,559 --> 01:07:41,239
Speaker 3: That was the goal. It was to talk about kind

917
01:07:41,239 --> 01:07:47,440
of the context in the first part, the thinking the

918
01:07:47,719 --> 01:07:52,280
mythopoetic in many places, but to to kind of to

919
01:07:52,440 --> 01:07:56,280
marry it to to a real experience. Yeah.

920
01:07:57,119 --> 01:08:02,199
Speaker 2: Yeah, I that also was interesting, you know, as we

921
01:08:02,400 --> 01:08:05,360
as you said before we started recording, these are things

922
01:08:05,400 --> 01:08:14,119
that people don't talk about in public. We we don't

923
01:08:15,400 --> 01:08:19,239
and for good reason. If anything, the Witch Trials taught

924
01:08:19,319 --> 01:08:23,840
us that, you know, to know to dare, to will

925
01:08:23,880 --> 01:08:30,479
and to keep silent because well yeah, and this insistence

926
01:08:31,079 --> 01:08:37,880
of demonic origin, this insistence that if it's dark, it's bad,

927
01:08:38,399 --> 01:08:42,600
if it's dark it's evil. I mean even in you know,

928
01:08:42,920 --> 01:08:46,239
yin Yang, we have the light within the dark and

929
01:08:46,279 --> 01:08:51,239
the dark within the light, but it's still you know,

930
01:08:51,439 --> 01:08:56,600
shadows are they're not trustworthy. You can't know that's bad.

931
01:08:57,800 --> 01:09:02,880
And you know the style of Christianity here in the

932
01:09:02,960 --> 01:09:09,960
United States currently, and I even went to one of

933
01:09:10,000 --> 01:09:17,399
these churches when I was a teenager, the evangelical charismatic churches.

934
01:09:18,000 --> 01:09:22,760
They're very, very strongly against anything that has a shadow

935
01:09:22,840 --> 01:09:27,359
to it. And well, you know, I'm helpful. You never

936
01:09:27,439 --> 01:09:29,960
read the Bible, did you. There's lots of shadow. We

937
01:09:30,039 --> 01:09:34,199
got stuff going on in there. And it's not all

938
01:09:34,399 --> 01:09:37,600
you know, ah, the evil one. There's some stuff that

939
01:09:37,720 --> 01:09:41,840
you know, the Almighty himself did pretty pretty shaky as

940
01:09:41,880 --> 01:09:47,279
far as I'm concerned, you know, But there is a fear,

941
01:09:47,960 --> 01:09:52,920
a fear of being taken as well. You're just an

942
01:09:52,960 --> 01:09:57,000
evil person if this happens to you, because if you

943
01:09:57,079 --> 01:10:02,000
were a good person, this wouldn't happen to you. And

944
01:10:02,399 --> 01:10:06,439
then there's the issue of things like the movie The Exorcist,

945
01:10:06,520 --> 01:10:11,039
the movie and the book. I mean, the movie scared

946
01:10:11,079 --> 01:10:13,920
my cousin so badly. She was in her twenties. I'll

947
01:10:13,920 --> 01:10:16,399
never let her live it down, but it scared her

948
01:10:16,439 --> 01:10:19,920
so much that she came home from work to eat lunch,

949
01:10:19,920 --> 01:10:22,359
and then she was going to go back, but the

950
01:10:23,640 --> 01:10:28,880
theme tubular Bells came on and it reminded her of

951
01:10:28,880 --> 01:10:31,560
the movie so much it scared her. She tried to

952
01:10:31,600 --> 01:10:35,079
turn off the radio and she couldn't, and she tried

953
01:10:35,079 --> 01:10:38,479
to unplug it, but it was She unplugged it, but

954
01:10:38,560 --> 01:10:44,119
there were batteries in it, so it just kept So

955
01:10:44,279 --> 01:10:46,680
she ran out of the house and ended up locking

956
01:10:46,720 --> 01:10:49,439
herself out. Her purse and keys were sitting on the

957
01:10:49,520 --> 01:10:52,039
kitchen table, and she had to call her mom at

958
01:10:52,039 --> 01:10:54,239
work to come, you know, hey, let me back in

959
01:10:54,319 --> 01:10:57,199
so I can go back to work. Well what happened

960
01:10:57,439 --> 01:11:02,880
as well? Then music? Oh so yeah, I'm much younger

961
01:11:02,880 --> 01:11:05,039
than her, but even as a twelve year old, I

962
01:11:05,119 --> 01:11:11,319
messed with her over it because well, you know, whereas

963
01:11:11,359 --> 01:11:17,479
I watched the movie and was like, it's just a

964
01:11:17,479 --> 01:11:22,840
piece of folklore essentially, you know, brought up to modern times.

965
01:11:22,880 --> 01:11:28,359
And anyway, that's beside the point. We don't talk about

966
01:11:28,359 --> 01:11:32,279
these things because it isn't I guess, culturally safe.

967
01:11:33,239 --> 01:11:37,439
Speaker 3: Well you know, isn't culturally safe, you know, and in

968
01:11:37,880 --> 01:11:40,920
troop total, like in any part of the world, you know,

969
01:11:43,319 --> 01:11:51,279
like there are versions of almost every religion that have

970
01:11:51,560 --> 01:11:57,479
that kind of dogmatic aspect to them, you know. But

971
01:12:01,039 --> 01:12:02,520
I mean I felt for the nature of this book,

972
01:12:02,520 --> 01:12:05,279
I focus just on on Britain and Ireland with a

973
01:12:05,319 --> 01:12:11,319
touch of Germany. But this this stuff is everywhere mhm.

974
01:12:11,640 --> 01:12:16,159
You know, it really is. And equally people do have

975
01:12:16,199 --> 01:12:20,680
that reaction mm hm, because when you call up I mean,

976
01:12:20,239 --> 01:12:24,479
as you know, when you come up against something that

977
01:12:24,640 --> 01:12:27,800
is this otherworldly, your whole nervous system will react to

978
01:12:27,840 --> 01:12:31,159
it because you're it is. And I talk about in

979
01:12:31,159 --> 01:12:34,079
the book as the ontological shock. You know, everything you

980
01:12:34,239 --> 01:12:37,800
understood about the nature of things, the reality of things

981
01:12:37,960 --> 01:12:41,520
has been completely turned on its head. That is going

982
01:12:41,560 --> 01:12:43,920
to that is going to create a visceral reaction. And

983
01:12:43,960 --> 01:12:46,439
on some level, when you're talking about this, people know that,

984
01:12:47,279 --> 01:12:49,479
and they don't want to hear about it, you know.

985
01:12:50,079 --> 01:12:52,119
You know, you'll get dismissed as being a crank or

986
01:12:52,319 --> 01:12:57,840
you know, your delulus or whatever you know. But at

987
01:12:57,840 --> 01:13:00,479
the same time, most of those people, I won't go

988
01:13:00,600 --> 01:13:05,560
with you to a stone circle at midnight, you know,

989
01:13:05,760 --> 01:13:09,840
or to a lonely forest clearing at midnight to do

990
01:13:10,039 --> 01:13:13,560
ritual work, of course they won't. M you know. Yeah,

991
01:13:14,159 --> 01:13:20,640
so because somewhere in somewhere deep within they have a

992
01:13:20,680 --> 01:13:21,199
sense of it.

993
01:13:22,439 --> 01:13:26,479
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think I think it isn't just a Christian

994
01:13:26,520 --> 01:13:31,239
thing or an Islamic thing, an avery, hammock faith thing

995
01:13:31,359 --> 01:13:34,800
that the people of the book. I don't think that

996
01:13:34,800 --> 01:13:38,159
that's just it. I think because you know, we're talking

997
01:13:38,159 --> 01:13:41,560
about the Lord of the underworld, the land of the dead.

998
01:13:42,920 --> 01:13:48,119
Everybody's afraid of death. Nobody wants to die, right unless

999
01:13:48,279 --> 01:13:51,720
there's something you know, you're suffering or something, and then okay, yeah,

1000
01:13:51,760 --> 01:13:56,840
please take me. But people are afraid of it. They

1001
01:13:56,880 --> 01:14:02,199
are afraid of what it can mean. What you know,

1002
01:14:02,640 --> 01:14:04,399
is there evil that is happening?

1003
01:14:04,439 --> 01:14:04,680
Speaker 4: You know?

1004
01:14:04,760 --> 01:14:09,800
Speaker 2: The other thing that is interesting in twenty first century,

1005
01:14:10,920 --> 01:14:14,039
in the twenty first century West is we've basically gone

1006
01:14:14,119 --> 01:14:19,319
there isn't really evil. Evil is just human evil are

1007
01:14:19,359 --> 01:14:22,520
the things humans do and in general, I mean when

1008
01:14:22,520 --> 01:14:26,680
people ask what aspect of the paranormal frightens you, and

1009
01:14:26,720 --> 01:14:32,520
I go, humans, I'm afraid of humans, you know, if

1010
01:14:32,560 --> 01:14:35,439
I'm gonna I love horror movies. But do I watch

1011
01:14:35,520 --> 01:14:41,279
ones where the protagonist is a human serial killer? No,

1012
01:14:42,119 --> 01:14:45,239
because I know I will not sleep for at least

1013
01:14:45,279 --> 01:14:47,319
a week and I already have problems with that, so

1014
01:14:47,800 --> 01:14:52,079
I don't need to give more to that. But am

1015
01:14:52,119 --> 01:14:59,279
I watching something like The Witch or No Speratu I'm fine,

1016
01:15:00,279 --> 01:15:04,520
not because I know that those things aren't real, but

1017
01:15:04,680 --> 01:15:11,159
because that, to me is nothing compared to what humans

1018
01:15:11,159 --> 01:15:11,960
can come up with.

1019
01:15:12,439 --> 01:15:16,239
Speaker 3: Yeah, of course, yeah absolutely. I mean, as you said,

1020
01:15:16,239 --> 01:15:20,880
the kind of the idea of there is no supernatural evil,

1021
01:15:24,039 --> 01:15:31,520
I guess that's been around for a slightly longer period.

1022
01:15:31,560 --> 01:15:35,680
I mean we're talking decades rather than centuries. But the

1023
01:15:35,720 --> 01:15:39,439
idea that there is there's no real human evil is

1024
01:15:40,960 --> 01:15:45,760
relatively modern, and it's it's it's a projection that kind

1025
01:15:45,800 --> 01:15:51,119
of like, oh, everyone shares the same moral values or

1026
01:15:51,279 --> 01:15:55,439
everyone thinks the same, and they don't. It's just not true.

1027
01:15:55,880 --> 01:15:59,199
You know, there are predatory people. There always have been,

1028
01:15:59,800 --> 01:16:04,399
you know you despicable nature is that this is just

1029
01:16:04,399 --> 01:16:05,520
the reality of the world.

1030
01:16:07,399 --> 01:16:09,800
Speaker 2: If you study history, you can't help but bump up

1031
01:16:09,800 --> 01:16:12,399
against it over and over. It's going to just jump

1032
01:16:12,479 --> 01:16:18,199
right out at you. It is completely I think it's

1033
01:16:18,279 --> 01:16:20,239
it's kind of nonsense he to say there is no

1034
01:16:20,359 --> 01:16:24,359
true human evil. I am one of those people who

1035
01:16:24,520 --> 01:16:29,439
like to generally say that there is good in every

1036
01:16:29,479 --> 01:16:33,560
person in general. I don't think because I won't dehumanize

1037
01:16:33,600 --> 01:16:36,000
people even if I don't like them, even if what

1038
01:16:36,079 --> 01:16:38,720
they're doing is despicable. I'll still be like, well, it's

1039
01:16:38,720 --> 01:16:42,840
still a human being. But when I say it's still

1040
01:16:42,840 --> 01:16:46,680
a human being, it isn't me being necessarily nice about it,

1041
01:16:47,600 --> 01:16:51,199
you know. And nor do I believe in the whole

1042
01:16:51,239 --> 01:16:54,680
idea of the fall of man. I think that it's

1043
01:16:54,920 --> 01:17:03,399
it's more a case of our hardwired means of being

1044
01:17:03,439 --> 01:17:09,000
in the world. We've been hardwired for competition as a

1045
01:17:09,039 --> 01:17:15,520
survival mechanism, and we've been wired with cooperation as a

1046
01:17:16,600 --> 01:17:21,399
means of survival. And you know, in my view, that

1047
01:17:21,479 --> 01:17:23,840
needs to be balanced. They need to both be there.

1048
01:17:23,920 --> 01:17:26,039
You can't do all one and you can't do all

1049
01:17:26,039 --> 01:17:29,479
the other. You got to have them both. But I

1050
01:17:29,520 --> 01:17:34,000
think when we start going down a path that is

1051
01:17:34,199 --> 01:17:38,760
going to lead to human evil is its competition. It's

1052
01:17:38,880 --> 01:17:39,680
too much of that.

1053
01:17:40,079 --> 01:17:41,079
Speaker 3: It's too much.

1054
01:17:40,920 --> 01:17:47,680
Speaker 2: Of I we against they, you know, or I have mine,

1055
01:17:48,479 --> 01:17:51,119
don't come near it. It's mine. You don't get to

1056
01:17:51,199 --> 01:17:55,279
have any of whatever it is, you know. And that's

1057
01:17:55,359 --> 01:18:02,119
when we get into that actual evil is selfishness versus sharing.

1058
01:18:02,199 --> 01:18:06,000
I guess would be yeah, several ways to put it.

1059
01:18:06,000 --> 01:18:13,439
Speaker 3: It's it's it's interesting to watch because whatever whatever system

1060
01:18:13,800 --> 01:18:21,479
of human organization there is, it has a a deeply

1061
01:18:21,520 --> 01:18:25,279
negative side, whatever system it is. We see that through history,

1062
01:18:25,720 --> 01:18:28,039
like the the like the like the reverse of of

1063
01:18:28,720 --> 01:18:33,840
what you described. They're that kind of like accumulation of

1064
01:18:33,880 --> 01:18:40,000
immense wealth or resources at the at the cost of others.

1065
01:18:43,359 --> 01:18:45,960
The reverse of that is the idea of like, well,

1066
01:18:46,520 --> 01:18:50,239
I'm entitled to take mm hmm thing from somebody else,

1067
01:18:50,960 --> 01:18:54,800
you know, whatever cost to them, you know, be it

1068
01:18:54,880 --> 01:18:57,760
their life, you know, their their health, you know, so

1069
01:18:58,000 --> 01:19:01,520
like it's it's the many. You kind of get an idea.

1070
01:19:01,560 --> 01:19:07,880
There's always a fringe that spills into mm hmm, you know,

1071
01:19:09,079 --> 01:19:15,439
dark dark stuff and not existing with in humans.

1072
01:19:15,800 --> 01:19:23,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, there's now now we've gone from dark to dark.

1073
01:19:24,800 --> 01:19:35,760
Speaker 1: From right, we've gone from uh an idea of a devil,

1074
01:19:37,000 --> 01:19:40,479
the idea of something that isn't the devil but has

1075
01:19:40,560 --> 01:19:44,960
to do with the shadowy parts of human nature, or

1076
01:19:45,239 --> 01:19:48,279
that has to do with death, or that has to

1077
01:19:48,359 --> 01:19:49,600
do with.

1078
01:19:51,079 --> 01:19:51,399
Speaker 4: Birth.

1079
01:19:53,239 --> 01:19:56,479
Speaker 2: That that comes at because that the whole sexual angle

1080
01:19:56,560 --> 01:20:01,359
of it, that with the fairies, with the Gin, and

1081
01:20:01,560 --> 01:20:04,920
with the dark Man and with the Queen of Elfham,

1082
01:20:05,239 --> 01:20:10,119
everybody is wanting to have sex with humans, and that

1083
01:20:10,119 --> 01:20:13,199
that is like you go all the way back, and

1084
01:20:13,560 --> 01:20:17,760
it's all in there, you know, and it doesn't matter

1085
01:20:17,800 --> 01:20:22,920
what part of the world we're in this happens, you know,

1086
01:20:23,600 --> 01:20:25,479
by I mean even alien abduction.

1087
01:20:26,920 --> 01:20:35,439
Speaker 3: There there is a sexual undercurrent two seemingly all of

1088
01:20:35,479 --> 01:20:46,000
the kind of non embodied human interests, human interactions from

1089
01:20:46,119 --> 01:20:50,319
these types of entities we have the idea of, like

1090
01:20:50,520 --> 01:20:53,880
again in in Irish you have something called a land sheet,

1091
01:20:55,279 --> 01:20:58,119
and that's a fairy lover. You know, we're these deeply

1092
01:20:58,159 --> 01:21:04,720
possessive fairy lovers. The same thing with Jin and with

1093
01:21:04,800 --> 01:21:07,279
again I mean going back to cirting, back to this Bulagaudi.

1094
01:21:07,319 --> 01:21:10,439
You know, it gets it's there in black and white,

1095
01:21:10,960 --> 01:21:14,800
you know, like literally get more vivid than that. You know.

1096
01:21:14,840 --> 01:21:20,640
There's another case with a woman called Christian Patterson and

1097
01:21:21,520 --> 01:21:27,840
her her testimony was again supposed to be quite highly

1098
01:21:27,880 --> 01:21:32,439
sexualized in places as well. And this seems to be

1099
01:21:33,199 --> 01:21:35,880
this is part of part of how I think it

1100
01:21:35,880 --> 01:21:42,520
relates to nature, you know, in that there's in some

1101
01:21:42,760 --> 01:21:46,720
areas of thought that there's two aspects to the entity

1102
01:21:46,720 --> 01:21:48,520
that makes up the dark Man. That the dark Man

1103
01:21:48,560 --> 01:21:52,159
element is the kind of the autumn winter element. As

1104
01:21:52,199 --> 01:21:54,119
things are, things are dying and the horned man is

1105
01:21:54,119 --> 01:21:55,560
the spring and summer. So it's the kind of the

1106
01:21:56,560 --> 01:21:58,399
life and the death. So that the kind of the

1107
01:21:58,640 --> 01:22:08,279
fecundity and then the the decline and the interest in

1108
01:22:08,880 --> 01:22:14,000
human sexuality as portrayed in the accounts of Isabel Gaudy

1109
01:22:14,079 --> 01:22:17,399
and and other other similar accounts, that there is this

1110
01:22:20,399 --> 01:22:27,399
almost kind of ritualized participation in in in in human

1111
01:22:27,439 --> 01:22:31,359
sexuality in a very wild sense. You know, if you

1112
01:22:31,399 --> 01:22:34,439
think about the context of the time, you know, Isabel

1113
01:22:34,479 --> 01:22:39,800
Goudy's account would have been unbelievably shocking, you know, absolutely

1114
01:22:39,800 --> 01:22:42,439
sexually profane. I mean, it still is, it still has

1115
01:22:42,479 --> 01:22:49,560
weight today. But that to me, how I frame that

1116
01:22:49,800 --> 01:22:55,600
is it's connecting humanity to its wildness and to the

1117
01:22:55,680 --> 01:22:59,680
kind of the the instinct of sexuality, of of of

1118
01:22:59,680 --> 01:23:04,359
of procreation, of the kundanity, and that kind of that

1119
01:23:03,840 --> 01:23:11,199
that driving force is manifest in those experiences, those accounts.

1120
01:23:11,560 --> 01:23:16,520
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, Isabelle Gouti, like I said, the first time

1121
01:23:16,560 --> 01:23:20,159
I heard of her was in a trashy novel where

1122
01:23:20,199 --> 01:23:24,960
they made her a a noble woman, which is not

1123
01:23:25,000 --> 01:23:31,359
true nowhere near at all, you know, but they they

1124
01:23:31,600 --> 01:23:36,600
It's interesting they did have in the novel them using

1125
01:23:36,800 --> 01:23:42,920
elf shot, so using stone arrow heads that they flung

1126
01:23:43,039 --> 01:23:48,079
off of their fingernail thumbnail. So I'm like tittley winks

1127
01:23:48,239 --> 01:23:52,720
or a marble, you know, kind of like that. And

1128
01:23:53,960 --> 01:23:57,840
you know, they were strike people who had wronged them,

1129
01:23:58,199 --> 01:24:01,399
you know. And I was like, oh, now, come on,

1130
01:24:01,520 --> 01:24:03,520
why we got to kill people? Why do we got

1131
01:24:03,520 --> 01:24:05,199
to you know, why do we got to make the

1132
01:24:05,239 --> 01:24:07,399
cow go dry? Why we got to do these things?

1133
01:24:07,479 --> 01:24:11,720
And then I started reading about what life was like

1134
01:24:12,000 --> 01:24:15,439
for peasants in that place at that time, and what

1135
01:24:15,520 --> 01:24:18,199
kind of houses they lived in. And then I went,

1136
01:24:18,399 --> 01:24:22,119
you know, okay, I can see fling in some little

1137
01:24:22,199 --> 01:24:29,159
arrows because these people were living in very small turf cottages,

1138
01:24:29,319 --> 01:24:36,600
which for Americans is when you cut dirt essentially into

1139
01:24:36,680 --> 01:24:38,840
squares and you build your house out of it. It's

1140
01:24:38,880 --> 01:24:45,479
not bricks, it's turf, and it's alive, you know, so

1141
01:24:45,680 --> 01:24:50,479
it grows. It's almost like what was used in the

1142
01:24:50,560 --> 01:24:55,359
voyage West through the United States for how homesteaders they

1143
01:24:55,359 --> 01:25:04,039
would build dugout cabins, dugout houses. But man, they're cold,

1144
01:25:04,439 --> 01:25:09,000
They're horribly cold, you know, and that these people didn't

1145
01:25:09,000 --> 01:25:14,039
have money to warm their homes. They didn't have firewood.

1146
01:25:14,039 --> 01:25:17,359
You know, in America, we're like, there's firewood right out there.

1147
01:25:17,399 --> 01:25:19,520
I don't know what this this thing, you know, because

1148
01:25:19,560 --> 01:25:25,479
we're we don't realize that most of the English woodlands

1149
01:25:25,479 --> 01:25:29,720
had been cut down to make the greatest navy in

1150
01:25:29,760 --> 01:25:34,319
the world, because we just don't. We just don't think

1151
01:25:34,359 --> 01:25:38,079
that way. You know, Britain small. In the United States,

1152
01:25:38,119 --> 01:25:42,439
cotton it you know, it's gigantic, and so we don't

1153
01:25:42,479 --> 01:25:45,600
get that. Why did the king own all the forests?

1154
01:25:45,640 --> 01:25:48,760
Well that's because that's the part that he didn't cut

1155
01:25:48,800 --> 01:25:52,680
down to make his navy or her navy actually, and

1156
01:25:54,159 --> 01:25:57,159
so we don't understand that. Well, you just go outside

1157
01:25:57,159 --> 01:25:58,880
and you just get some tree, you know, you just

1158
01:25:58,920 --> 01:26:03,159
cut down trees. You can't do that. And then you know,

1159
01:26:03,279 --> 01:26:07,520
and I I am into history, been reading it forever,

1160
01:26:07,560 --> 01:26:11,560
and you would think that I would do that, but no, really,

1161
01:26:11,640 --> 01:26:15,600
because of what we see every day, it is very different.

1162
01:26:15,640 --> 01:26:18,479
And once I realized that what they were doing when

1163
01:26:18,520 --> 01:26:21,000
they were making the cows run dries, they were stealing

1164
01:26:21,039 --> 01:26:26,159
the milk so they didn't starve. They were stealing the

1165
01:26:26,239 --> 01:26:32,520
grain so they didn't starve. Well, you know, Isabelle get

1166
01:26:32,520 --> 01:26:35,439
on with your bad self. You do the things you

1167
01:26:35,479 --> 01:26:38,800
need to do to survive. I'm not gonna, you know,

1168
01:26:39,159 --> 01:26:40,920
sit over here in the twenty first century and be

1169
01:26:41,039 --> 01:26:44,119
like evil witch evil evil evil. It's like, no, you

1170
01:26:44,239 --> 01:26:46,640
do what you gotta do. You talk to who you

1171
01:26:46,720 --> 01:26:51,920
have to talk to. And if the ruling class is

1172
01:26:51,960 --> 01:26:54,880
not going to help you all out, well where are

1173
01:26:54,920 --> 01:26:56,600
you going to go? If the church isn't going to

1174
01:26:56,640 --> 01:26:56,960
help you?

1175
01:26:57,640 --> 01:27:00,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean these a brutal place is to live,

1176
01:27:01,039 --> 01:27:09,039
you know, like like Scotland, Ireland are very inclement places

1177
01:27:09,079 --> 01:27:12,119
like that. You know, you need a lot of the

1178
01:27:12,840 --> 01:27:18,720
kind of the modern conveniences to live in comfortably. Like

1179
01:27:18,840 --> 01:27:22,000
the West coast of Ireland is like constant rain. Like

1180
01:27:22,520 --> 01:27:28,600
these are wet places like and cold, but these are

1181
01:27:28,600 --> 01:27:33,000
subsistence farming. I think that there wasn't that long ago

1182
01:27:33,039 --> 01:27:34,880
when there was the Irish fam and you know, it

1183
01:27:34,960 --> 01:27:39,600
was one hundred and seventy years ago and the population

1184
01:27:39,720 --> 01:27:45,319
still hasn't recovered. You know, this is like devastation and

1185
01:27:45,359 --> 01:27:48,880
like people were very much living by a fingernail and

1186
01:27:48,920 --> 01:27:51,039
if something went wrong, you know, people were dead.

1187
01:27:51,119 --> 01:27:51,840
Speaker 4: That was it.

1188
01:27:52,479 --> 01:27:54,880
Speaker 3: And likewise, when the circles back to that, the thing

1189
01:27:54,920 --> 01:27:57,600
I mentioned about kind of trauma being the instigator for this.

1190
01:27:58,640 --> 01:28:01,600
If the bread winner that might be, you know, the

1191
01:28:01,680 --> 01:28:06,079
husband who was a laborer died, then that family was done,

1192
01:28:06,279 --> 01:28:09,960
you know, like and this is where some of the

1193
01:28:09,960 --> 01:28:14,800
stuff that happened as a way of that gave an

1194
01:28:14,800 --> 01:28:18,359
avenue for survival. But equally, I think, like you in

1195
01:28:18,399 --> 01:28:21,119
a wider context, you know that kind of that initiator

1196
01:28:21,159 --> 01:28:24,159
of chaos is this turning it the world on its head.

1197
01:28:24,239 --> 01:28:29,760
It's upsetting the apple cart, you know, and for whatever reason,

1198
01:28:29,760 --> 01:28:32,399
who knows, you know, you know, that's the that's the

1199
01:28:32,439 --> 01:28:35,239
devil's business.

1200
01:28:35,560 --> 01:28:39,079
Speaker 2: It's what he does. It's his job. His job is

1201
01:28:39,119 --> 01:28:44,760
to stand up against something someone, and who that is

1202
01:28:45,520 --> 01:28:52,760
depends in context. When I was thinking about it and

1203
01:28:52,840 --> 01:28:57,920
thinking about it from different perspectives and looking back and forth,

1204
01:28:59,319 --> 01:29:04,279
one of the one of the things that ended up

1205
01:29:04,319 --> 01:29:11,520
happening with me was I left well, I dedicated myself

1206
01:29:11,560 --> 01:29:17,159
to the moon goddess on a full moon night, and

1207
01:29:18,279 --> 01:29:20,880
I was still going to church, and I ended up

1208
01:29:20,920 --> 01:29:25,239
walking out of church. And it was a small charismatic

1209
01:29:25,319 --> 01:29:27,399
They were trying to be a cult. They just hadn't

1210
01:29:27,560 --> 01:29:30,640
gotten really good at it yet. It was a very

1211
01:29:30,640 --> 01:29:35,880
small sect that had broken away from a larger Pentecostal church,

1212
01:29:36,720 --> 01:29:44,399
and the minister had was talking about women. Most of

1213
01:29:44,439 --> 01:29:46,119
the people in that church were women. I don't know

1214
01:29:46,119 --> 01:29:48,119
why he thought it was a good idea, but whatever

1215
01:29:48,199 --> 01:29:51,199
he was, he was talking about us. And he was

1216
01:29:51,239 --> 01:29:54,239
talking about women who are for the Equal Rights Amendment,

1217
01:29:54,319 --> 01:29:57,520
for the er a women's livers. You know, you can

1218
01:29:57,560 --> 01:30:02,880
tell how old I am now they are possessed of demons?

1219
01:30:05,319 --> 01:30:07,960
Boy did that go over really well with me?

1220
01:30:09,159 --> 01:30:09,600
Speaker 3: Pretty well?

1221
01:30:10,520 --> 01:30:13,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm just sitting there going, oh, can I sit

1222
01:30:13,680 --> 01:30:18,079
through this? Can I sit through this? And he started

1223
01:30:18,119 --> 01:30:21,279
talking about are you for eighty six? The abortion pill

1224
01:30:21,399 --> 01:30:23,800
and how people were being forced to take it and

1225
01:30:23,840 --> 01:30:27,279
this and that and oh my god, you know, and

1226
01:30:27,720 --> 01:30:30,199
how it was proof that the French Catholics were all

1227
01:30:30,279 --> 01:30:32,680
evil people because they developed it in France, and I

1228
01:30:32,720 --> 01:30:36,359
was just like, oh, you know. And I finally just

1229
01:30:36,399 --> 01:30:40,159
stood up and I said no, no, And he looked

1230
01:30:40,199 --> 01:30:43,880
at me and was like, what is it? And I said,

1231
01:30:44,000 --> 01:30:46,520
because we were allowed to talk back to him, at

1232
01:30:46,600 --> 01:30:49,760
least I've given that. I said, women who want writes

1233
01:30:49,760 --> 01:30:53,840
equel to men are not possessed of demons. That's nonsense.

1234
01:30:54,359 --> 01:30:59,840
That's just fear mongering and nonsense, and it's just not true.

1235
01:31:00,119 --> 01:31:02,640
You know, look how many women are in your congregation.

1236
01:31:03,199 --> 01:31:05,560
Look who does the things? I painted the sign for

1237
01:31:05,640 --> 01:31:09,239
the new church. You know, your wife plays the piano.

1238
01:31:10,279 --> 01:31:14,760
Sister Debbie over there, she cooks lunch for us, every suming,

1239
01:31:14,840 --> 01:31:17,319
you know. And I'm just going all these things, This

1240
01:31:17,399 --> 01:31:19,760
is all of this work that people give for free,

1241
01:31:19,920 --> 01:31:24,079
and they're women. Why are we suddenly because we want

1242
01:31:24,119 --> 01:31:26,680
to be recognized as equal to men and able to

1243
01:31:26,760 --> 01:31:30,159
do what men do? Why does that make it demons?

1244
01:31:30,520 --> 01:31:32,520
Why is that got to be demons? Dem It's just

1245
01:31:32,960 --> 01:31:38,000
wanting to be equal, that's it. And oh my go wow.

1246
01:31:38,479 --> 01:31:41,239
He was going to come heal me. And so my

1247
01:31:41,319 --> 01:31:43,279
best friend stood up with me and she said, yeah,

1248
01:31:43,279 --> 01:31:46,720
I can't listen to this either. And we were trying

1249
01:31:46,720 --> 01:31:48,399
to get out, you know, we're trying to be cool

1250
01:31:48,720 --> 01:31:51,520
and sort of edge out, and he came up and

1251
01:31:51,560 --> 01:31:53,399
he was like, let me give you healing, and I

1252
01:31:53,439 --> 01:31:55,960
was like, oh, So I just picked up a handle

1253
01:31:56,000 --> 01:31:57,279
and said I was going to throw it at him

1254
01:31:57,279 --> 01:32:00,720
if he came any more steps closer. And so we

1255
01:32:00,840 --> 01:32:05,439
backed out the door and then I tossed the hymnal

1256
01:32:05,479 --> 01:32:07,800
gently back in the door, and then we ran like hell,

1257
01:32:08,239 --> 01:32:13,520
you know, and laughing because we had both been sitting

1258
01:32:13,560 --> 01:32:16,119
there twice a week, going I don't know if I

1259
01:32:16,199 --> 01:32:20,560
just can't No, I don't think so. And finally we

1260
01:32:20,640 --> 01:32:23,960
had broken free and we ran maniacally through the streets

1261
01:32:23,960 --> 01:32:29,319
of Charleston laughing. But that was, you know, the whole

1262
01:32:29,439 --> 01:32:35,640
idea of women doing things, wanting anything other than are

1263
01:32:35,720 --> 01:32:40,199
prescribed whatever that they decided we would do. That was demonic.

1264
01:32:40,800 --> 01:32:43,560
And then all I could do is I looked at her.

1265
01:32:43,600 --> 01:32:46,319
I said, you know that I gave myself over to

1266
01:32:46,359 --> 01:32:51,720
the moon goddess last month, right, And she was like yeah, no,

1267
01:32:52,359 --> 01:32:55,359
and she's like yeah, and she said, what about the

1268
01:32:55,399 --> 01:32:57,039
horned God? And I'm like, I'm going to talk to

1269
01:32:57,119 --> 01:33:01,920
him next, because I'm not too worried about him being

1270
01:33:02,000 --> 01:33:05,319
the actual, honest to god Satan. And that was the

1271
01:33:05,359 --> 01:33:07,920
other thing I got in trouble with the Minister with

1272
01:33:08,479 --> 01:33:11,720
he was always talking about Satan. He had they had

1273
01:33:11,760 --> 01:33:14,279
a personalized Satan who was going after them all the

1274
01:33:14,359 --> 01:33:18,960
time and putting obstacles in their path, and very much

1275
01:33:19,279 --> 01:33:22,359
like you know, the gin who were throwing it. Don't

1276
01:33:22,359 --> 01:33:26,439
come here, go away, no, no, no. Well they were

1277
01:33:26,479 --> 01:33:28,920
like this is this is what's happening. And I was

1278
01:33:29,000 --> 01:33:33,960
kind of like, you know, maybe you should talk about

1279
01:33:34,000 --> 01:33:37,880
Jesus more. You should say his name all the time.

1280
01:33:38,239 --> 01:33:38,920
Speaker 4: You should say.

1281
01:33:38,840 --> 01:33:43,520
Speaker 2: Jesus because whatever you talk about a lot, that's the

1282
01:33:43,640 --> 01:33:46,520
energy you're putting out, and that's going to attract Satan

1283
01:33:46,600 --> 01:33:49,960
knows his name. He's not stupid, you know, he knows

1284
01:33:50,279 --> 01:33:53,880
who you're talking about, and he will come and follow you.

1285
01:33:54,000 --> 01:33:56,720
I said, it's a very simplistic way of these things work.

1286
01:33:57,239 --> 01:33:58,840
And you know, he wanted to know where I got

1287
01:33:58,840 --> 01:34:00,680
that from and the Bible is well I didn't get

1288
01:34:00,680 --> 01:34:07,239
it from the Bible, but okay, you know so that's yeah,

1289
01:34:07,760 --> 01:34:12,760
I very much. I feel that we are in a

1290
01:34:13,159 --> 01:34:16,359
place where the dark Man is speaking to more and

1291
01:34:16,399 --> 01:34:20,439
more people in a way that we listen to but

1292
01:34:20,640 --> 01:34:22,600
not necessarily talk to each other about.

1293
01:34:23,159 --> 01:34:25,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think so, I think so. I think it's

1294
01:34:25,600 --> 01:34:32,159
a resurgence. Yeah, definitely.

1295
01:34:39,319 --> 01:34:42,479
Speaker 2: An angel just passed through the room. We went silent.

1296
01:34:43,079 --> 01:34:46,079
That's what my grandma will say if you have a

1297
01:34:46,159 --> 01:34:49,039
conversation going. And maybe you don't say it in Ireland,

1298
01:34:49,119 --> 01:34:52,439
but in Appalachia, if you're having a conversation and then

1299
01:34:52,479 --> 01:34:58,319
everybody who's silent and angel passed through the room. Yeah,

1300
01:34:58,439 --> 01:35:00,800
there's a lot of folklore and apple and a lot

1301
01:35:00,840 --> 01:35:07,560
of honestly witchery and folk magic and stuff that we learned,

1302
01:35:07,960 --> 01:35:12,800
just right next to learning how to bake biscuits or

1303
01:35:12,800 --> 01:35:17,680
make high crust or whatever. Yeah, how to raise chickens

1304
01:35:17,680 --> 01:35:20,039
and all that. There was the other stuff that we learned,

1305
01:35:20,079 --> 01:35:24,119
but it was it wasn't taught special it just so

1306
01:35:24,560 --> 01:35:26,600
you know. Then I look back and I realized, Oh,

1307
01:35:26,640 --> 01:35:32,279
when you say an angel passed through, that's basically saying

1308
01:35:32,880 --> 01:35:40,439
silence came because you're respecting that being. Hmm. I never

1309
01:35:40,479 --> 01:35:44,640
thought of that. So yeah, that's that's what happened. Is

1310
01:35:44,680 --> 01:35:49,199
there anything else you want to talk about. We didn't

1311
01:35:49,239 --> 01:35:52,359
get to all of the stories in your book, but

1312
01:35:53,560 --> 01:35:56,239
I kind of would rather. I really think that the

1313
01:35:56,359 --> 01:36:01,600
bits you read are enough to grab someone and get

1314
01:36:01,600 --> 01:36:06,319
them to go and read it and and listen to it.

1315
01:36:07,399 --> 01:36:10,600
Speaker 3: Well, thank you, I appreciate it, and thank you for

1316
01:36:10,600 --> 01:36:14,880
your CID warnscause. Yeah, I'm very grateful for.

1317
01:36:15,760 --> 01:36:19,600
Speaker 2: Well, I'm very grateful you wrote it because a lot

1318
01:36:19,640 --> 01:36:23,199
of things in there, you know, especially the stories from

1319
01:36:23,279 --> 01:36:28,800
modern day. I was like, oh, yes, I understand that, Yes,

1320
01:36:29,199 --> 01:36:32,319
I get that, and it just feels much better. Again,

1321
01:36:32,560 --> 01:36:39,359
we don't talk about these things, so to have people

1322
01:36:39,720 --> 01:36:44,680
go on the record in a book is invaluable to

1323
01:36:44,880 --> 01:36:46,479
other people, I hope.

1324
01:36:46,520 --> 01:36:48,520
Speaker 3: So, I mean that's you know, one of the real

1325
01:36:49,720 --> 01:36:55,000
goals there was was to help orient type people who

1326
01:36:55,560 --> 01:36:57,840
you know, may feel a bit rodderless if this kind

1327
01:36:57,840 --> 01:37:00,840
of thing is happening. You know, I certainly felt that

1328
01:37:00,399 --> 01:37:01,680
way when it happened to me.

1329
01:37:01,800 --> 01:37:06,680
Speaker 2: Well yeah, you know, yeah, that's that's not again the

1330
01:37:06,760 --> 01:37:13,720
ontological shock. Yeah, and there are things that you know,

1331
01:37:13,840 --> 01:37:19,920
I I'm one of those repeat experiencer people and it

1332
01:37:20,000 --> 01:37:22,800
started in early childhood, so I don't know how normal

1333
01:37:22,840 --> 01:37:26,560
people are mostly, but I did know enough to not

1334
01:37:26,800 --> 01:37:31,960
say everything to my family, especially my parents, even though

1335
01:37:32,000 --> 01:37:35,520
there were people in my family who had similar experiences

1336
01:37:35,560 --> 01:37:39,119
and they talked about it, but nobody wanted to hear

1337
01:37:39,600 --> 01:37:42,640
what was happening with the kid because that's dangerous because

1338
01:37:42,640 --> 01:37:46,319
it's a child and no, no, no, And I really

1339
01:37:46,319 --> 01:37:51,319
didn't want to get thrown into, you know, a place

1340
01:37:51,359 --> 01:37:54,680
where I had to confess to being crazy or something ye.

1341
01:37:57,479 --> 01:38:02,359
So this kind of of work that you did, hopefully

1342
01:38:02,439 --> 01:38:05,359
you'll do some more fun stuff too. You should write

1343
01:38:05,439 --> 01:38:09,000
more books. No, thank you, I'm just saying. I'm just

1344
01:38:09,039 --> 01:38:13,800
saying you should. I really I really appreciated this, and

1345
01:38:13,840 --> 01:38:16,600
thank you for coming and talking to me about all

1346
01:38:16,680 --> 01:38:19,279
of these things. I really appreciated it.

1347
01:38:20,000 --> 01:38:21,640
Speaker 3: Thank you very much. Thank you for the in books.

1348
01:39:10,600 --> 01:39:12,800
Speaker 2: Well that's all for this week's episode of the Six

1349
01:39:12,840 --> 01:39:16,640
Degrees of John Keel podcast. If you have any questions

1350
01:39:16,720 --> 01:39:19,159
or thoughts about the podcast, or would like to come

1351
01:39:19,199 --> 01:39:22,560
and talk about your experiences of the paranormal, you can

1352
01:39:22,600 --> 01:39:27,359
contact us at six d JK six seven at gmail

1353
01:39:27,439 --> 01:39:31,840
dot com. We promised even answer you, and we are

1354
01:39:32,000 --> 01:39:36,359
always happy to hear from you. Thank you,